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This episode is sponsored by a company I've used for well over a decade and that is 511.

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I wore their uniforms back in Anaheim, California and have used their products ever since.

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From their incredibly strong yet light footwear to their cut uniforms for both male and female

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responders, I found them hands down the best workwear in all the departments that I've worked for.

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Outside of the fire service, I use their luggage for everything and I travel a lot and they are

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also now sponsoring the 7X team as we embark around the world on the Human Performance Project.

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We have Murph coming up in May and again I bought their plate carrier. I ended up buying real

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ballistic plates rather than the fake weight plates and that has been my ride or die through

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Murph the last few years as well. But one area I want to talk about that I haven't in previous

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sponsorship spots is their brick and mortar element. They were predominantly an online

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company up till more recently but now they are approaching 100 stores all over the US.

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My local store is here in Gainesville Florida and I've been multiple times and the discounts you see

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online are applied also in the stores. So as I mentioned 511 is offering you 15% off every

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purchase that you make but I do want to say more often than not they have an even deeper discount

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especially around holiday times. But if you use the code SHIELD15 you will get 15% off your order

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or in the stores every time you make a purchase. And if you want to hear more about 511, who they

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stand for and who works with them, listen to episode 580 of Behind the Shield podcast with

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511 regional director Will Ayers. I'm extremely excited to announce a brand new sponsor for the

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Behind the Shield podcast that is Transcend. Now for many of you listening you are probably

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working the same brutal shifts that I did for 14 years. Suffering from sleep deprivation,

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body composition challenges, mental health challenges, libido, hair loss etc. Now when it

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comes to the world of hormone replacement and peptide therapy what I have seen is a shift from

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doctors telling us that we were within normal limits which was definitely incorrect all the

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way to the other way now where men's clinics are popping up left right and center. So I myself wanted

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to find a reputable company that would do an analysis of my physiology and then offer

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supplementations without ramming for example hormone replacement therapy down my throat.

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Now I came across Transcend because they have an altruistic arm and they were a big reason why the

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7X project I was a part of was able to proceed because of their generous donations. They also

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have the Transcend foundations where they are actually putting military and first responders

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through some of their therapies at no cost to the individual. So my own personal journey so far

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filled in the online form, went to Quest, got blood drawn and a few days later I'm talking to

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one of their wellness professionals as they guide me through my results and the supplementation that

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they suggest. In my case specifically because I transitioned out the fire service five years ago

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and been very diligent with my health my testosterone was actually in a good place. So I went down the

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peptide route and some other supplements to try and maximize my physiology knowing full well the

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damage that 14 years of shift work has done. Now I also want to underline because I think this is

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very important that each of the therapies they offer they will talk about the pros and cons.

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So for example a lot of first responders and shift work our testosterone will be low but sometimes

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nutrition, exercise and sleep can offset that on its own. So this company is not going to try and

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push you down a path especially if it's one that you can't come back from. So whether it's libido,

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brain fog, inflammation, gut health, performance, sleep, this is definitely one of the most powerful

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tools in the toolbox. So to learn more go to transcendcompany.com or listen to episode 808

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of the Behind the Shield podcast with founder Ernie Colling. Welcome to the Behind the Shield

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podcast as always my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome back

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onto the show for the third time fire chief and author of Taking the Cape Off, Pat Kenny.

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Now in this third conversation we discuss a host of topics from a recent fire that affected his own

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family, a powerful trip back to Ireland revisiting multi-generational trauma, the hiring crisis in

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the fire service and so much more. Now before we get to this incredible and powerful conversation

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as I say every week please just take a moment go to whichever app you listen to this on,

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subscribe to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating. Every single five star rating truly does

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elevate this podcast therefore making it easier for others to find and this is a free library of

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almost 900 episodes now so all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and

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women stories so I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said I welcome back Pat Kenny enjoy.

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Well Pat I want to start by saying firstly welcome back for the third time onto the

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Behind the Shield podcast. I'm excited for that thanks for having me back again it really is an

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honor. So we were talking before I hit record through a series of technical issues on the

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podcast hosting site that I used to use I realized a lot of the old episodes really just weren't

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available to anyone on Spotify and iTunes and all the main ones that they use so when this goes out

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I would have also released the bonus episode because listening to our first conversation we've

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done three now I realized what an incredible incredible conversation it was and obviously you

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telling you know Sean and Eileen and all the you know the incredibly powerful story that you still

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present with today so for people listening if you haven't heard episode 266 I advise you to hit pause

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on this one go back and listen to that first and then jump into this but that being said

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as we sit here today it is supposed to have a massive storm here in Florida at the moment but

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where are we finding you on planet earth? So I'm still in lovely Donors Grove Illinois we too have

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a storm that's come through today was snow and sleet and rain and I always kind of smile when I

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was the emergency manager for the village on at the fire chief we would see the weather forecast

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and we would put together this great incident action plan for horrendous things and usually if

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you put that plan together you got two inches of snow so I'm sure they went through that last night

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it has not ended up outside right now as bad as they said it was going to be but it's January and

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Illinois so it's kind of what you figure is going to happen so but good overall good. Good yeah they

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they close the schools here and the schools are the shelters when we have hurricanes and massive

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storms and it ended up going I think pretty much north of us and yeah so there's some questions

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as to why they close it but again had it come through and they hadn't closed then people would

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be demonizing people for not doing it right so I say kudos to them for being cautious and being

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prepared and the kids had one night of you know good sleep today. Sure 100% that's that that's a

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you can't win situation so you always want to err on I protected versus I took a chance 100% I agree

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kudos to them. So we were talking before we hit record and I've talked about this a couple of

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times now for me 2023 was I can't even describe almost everyone that I love struggled this last

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year family close friends everyone was in was in some sort of hole and I was you know trying to

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be there for a lot of them I flew back to England twice to to be there for two different family

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members at one point and so I know that it's been a challenge for you before we get to the specifics

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though of some of the challenges that you and your family have found I can't help but feel like that

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is now the tidal wave the ripple effect of the pandemic I think the last conversation we have has

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come towards the end of it by that point but now in when I look back and reflect on 2023 I feel like

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that was really when it revealed itself what happens when you know people are you know told

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to to stay in their house and separated from their family and friends and all the things that we were

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told to do it's a real real virus absolutely but I don't know if it was handled the best way I can't

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help but feel like that has been the ripple effect that we've seen this last year so before we go

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into your specific family stuff which I'd love to dive into as well you are you know you've really

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got your pulse on the mental health element especially when it comes to our profession

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what have you observed as far as the ripple effect this last 12 18 months you know one one thing and

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I don't know if it's tied to the pandemic we've had this discussion a lot in my travels but there's

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a consistency to it no matter geographically where you're at it's really getting difficult to find

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men and women who are interested in going into the fire service and going in ems and the kind

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of the knee-jerk reaction has been well the pandemic did that there's because it brought in

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the reality of not only were you putting your own life on the line which for most of us we were

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always like okay as long as I'm not impacting anybody else I'm okay that's what I signed up for

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but at that point with the pandemic you now were worried about bringing it home and bringing it to

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your wife and your kids and significant other but I don't think that's what it is I'm sure that it

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had some kind of an impact on it but I mean here in Illinois it used to be if you were running a

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test for a full-time position in a department you'd have a couple hundred candidates now there have

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literally been some tests that have been run in the last six months here where they had nobody

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and so the pandemic I think yes more awareness but what I'm seeing more of is the offshoot of

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the pandemic that's not ems is people really started to value their family time together

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kind of ironic sometimes you were forced into a family situation and maybe you were like okay

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this this was nice in the beginning but this is going on a little too long we're on each other's

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nerves and kind of the human part of it but I think that value of sitting around the kitchen table

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that value of playing a game together that value of having mom and dad around kind of cemented that

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family stability and so now all of a sudden you're going back into the real world and it was that

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trauma of people being told to go back into their offices well you were you were had an option maybe

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if you were in that kind of environment to work from home and a lot of businesses have altered

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their model and to allow people to do that unfortunately you can't work a full arrest from

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home and you can't work a working fire from home and so you have to be in a building and you have

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to be available for 24 hours or whatever your shift would be and a number of the younger people

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are are not really up for that they want that family time when I came in it was a security was

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really a big part of this profession it's what you got it you weren't going to get rich you

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weren't going to get a bonus for doing a great job but you were looking forward to a pension at the

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end that you would be able to lead a decent life when you retired because you knew your body was

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going to be beat up by the time you were you're in your mid-50s and now the pension is not really

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that important now it's we can go make a living usually you're having both parents working so

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there's there's enough finance coming in to have a decent living and if I'm not real comfortable

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with the job I'm doing and I have a chance to have more family flexibility by going to x

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I go to x and so I I see in our service the fallout is finding people who are going to be

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finding people who are comfortable with the downside of the profession as opposed to coming

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to the glorified side of it and then running that seesaw balance of okay yeah I am going to be

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working on Christmas Day and I am going to be working on my wedding anniversary however I'm

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also going to have time off that I could take the kids to the zoo on a Tuesday afternoon that some

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other dad wouldn't have the pleasure and I'm still getting enough benefit emotionally like that

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emotional bank account is getting enough deposits about feeling like I'm making a difference that

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I'm willing to take the other side the downside and live with it which I think you do in any

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profession and that's been going on for a few hundred years but I really think ours came under

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the microscope with that whole work environment and I know there are departments out there they're

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doing research now about you know forget the 24 48 forget that any kind of a model where you're

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gone for an entire day can you break it up so that mom or dad is home for breakfast to see the kids

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off to school or home for dinner and how do you do that with staffing models how do you do that

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with the budget impact I know they're creatively trying to do it because they're finding that

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their staffing is beginning to be drastically overburdened because what used to be a nice

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overtime shift to have some additional money to buy kids gifts at their birthday or Christmas

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now is like too much I'm living in that fire station and that's not healthy either.

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No I think I mean you hit the nail on the head I don't think that you know the pandemic itself

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specifically has certainly revealed in some departments you know a lack of support from a

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department the moment there were vaccine mandates and things like that you know you're part of this

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tribe and you know you literally will die for that badge that's on your chest you know performing the

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service that you signed up for but then when that tribe turns their back on you obviously when you

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talk about mental health organizational betrayal that's a whole other conversation but I think

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you're absolutely right when firefighters were sitting around truly playing cards waiting for a

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fire specifically the old schedule was fine it just was you know but in 2023 with our men and women

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running you know literally 24 hours the answer is not I don't think it's even to break up the day

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because the the swing shifts and all those ones are awful I mean look at our cops look at our

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doctors and nurses they work those shifts you know but to give them more rest and recovery in between

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and I think that the hiring crisis that we're seeing is more so that absolutely rightly so

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there was an inertia from the pandemic a lot of people didn't work for a while and we're trying

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to get them fired up again but now you can research what does it actually look like to be

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a firefighter and like you said back in the day prior to me coming on you know the generation

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before me they had a good pension they had you know medical insurance so they carried through

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their entire retirement then when I came on they were cutting pensions the medical insurance went

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away it was cobra for a year after you leave you know so some of those kind of carrots on the sticks

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went away but you still want to serve so you're still not as worried but then you start seeing

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all the things that happen to us when we work 10 15 20 years and now that's you know out there

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on the internet so a young candidate is going to research now and be like wait a second when

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they're understaffed they tell me that I can't go home you know and you've seen this more and more

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and more so we're in this vicious circle so I agree with you a thousand percent until we turn

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it around and invest in our men and women and give them more rest and recovery so the 24 72 I think

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is the gold standard I think 24 is fine for a fire station when you have beds but you've got to give

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people more time off if you're going to stay up all night you have to give them the time to recover

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before the next shift and that is how we get people lining up outside our profession wanting

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to do the job again the desire is there but they're not idiots they also understand that this looks

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absolutely awful at the moment it's up to us as a profession to fix it so we can bring people back

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and I think it's the the um the fear of that you're going to destroy the culture by just making

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changes that for our for our benefits and I don't see it that way at all I would have a Chicago

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training chief um Pete Van Dorp who one one time when I was getting ready to do Sean's talk he was

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like Pat just tell me that you're not going to be another one of these guys that stands up there and

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goes we've got to change our culture so I'm so sick of hearing that he goes I see that we need to

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improve our culture so that means we hang on to the things that are still worthwhile and valuable

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and then we improve them just like when we started you know you weren't riding on the tailboard you

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started wearing air packs you weren't wearing three-quarter boots and I really give him credit

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for that because I use it all the time anymore and say especially when you're dealing with your

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health we know now things that we just didn't know before um that sleep deprivation every time I read

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a sleep study it makes me a little nauseous because I think of how much I pushed myself through and

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without knowing it um and that realizing what some of the long terms effect are when you get to be

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I'll be 67 in May when you get to this point when you start to forget where your keys are and I can't

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I've got 412 pairs of these you know cheaters because I lose them you really begin to fear

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is this dementia am I am I is this what's happened to me and as opposed to okay I'm 67 you're going

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to forget it sometimes we didn't know now and you hit right on it they do and I really push

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departments when you're doing your orientation not hiring when you're doing your orientation

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hiring when you're doing your orientation do you hit head on the challenges these men and women

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are signing up for did they walk into the year in orientation watching Chicago Fire and they're like

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whoa this is this is amazing and yes there are parts of the job that are absolute you can't even

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describe them even tv doesn't do them justice however do you tell them that at some point

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they're going to come across a call that is just going to go right through their heart

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because we the irony is in every country the number one ingredient of a good firefighter is

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get somebody who cares then we expose them to the worst situation you could ever expose them to and

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we act shocked that it bothers them so do you tell them up front do you invite their significant

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other to come to the orientation and say hey you're going to see some stuff that nobody should ever

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have to see some smells that you're never going to forget and when that happens that's normal

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and here's what we have in place because we know that's going to occur to help take care of you

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to get you back hold to bring you back to your loved ones whole so whether that's what we're

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going to do additional sleep we're going to look at nutrition we're going to have our own psychiatrist

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who's part of our response team but whatever that would be you need to tell them up front what's the

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challenge and then more importantly here's what we're going to do if your loved one wants to join

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our family here's how we're going to go about it instead we ignore it until it hits the fan and then

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it's like oh my god but we're in emergency crisis mode and the people have done their homework ahead

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of time have got to be sitting in the orientation going so every day is nirvana in this job for 30

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years nothing ever goes wrong you're never sad you're never pissed that you're here you're never

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no that's not reality well they're not telling me the truth so i'll go do something where they

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tell me the truth and we pride ourselves on our value of honesty let me in your home on your worst

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day and you're not looking over your shoulder if i'm taking your rolex watch or if i'm doing

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something i shouldn't be doing because you know i'm honest but we don't start off right away with

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being honest with them when they walk in the door and god bless them if they choose after they walk

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out of their orientation to go boy this wasn't what i thought it was it's not for me or your

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significant other and this is a true story what would be a year ago of december a number one

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candidate went through an academy flew through flying colors valedictorian came out of an academy

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first day on shift was in december the shift was talking about yeah you know we drew the holiday

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draw this year so you'll learn how this goes kid but if you get new year's eve you'll get christmas

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eve you'll get it just kind of and then next year it'll rotate out but we do a family thing our

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department's very involved on holidays so the families come down cook dinner together and

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this kid's just staring at him and they're like what's the matter said you mean i have to work

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christmas day they're like well yeah i thought he was kidding the whole day so well yeah you

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don't get to go home for a few hours no the whole day but then you'll be off the next couple days

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blah blah well this young man went home and had a discussion with his significant other that was

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just husband and wife and on that following monday he resigned and the chief was shocked and and also

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whatever every other consideration as a chief you would have about staffing and financial impact and

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it's like what do you mean and he said i didn't realize that i had to work 24 hours on holidays

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and my wife wants no part of that now that took a lot of courage to do um but it's it's a reality

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and if they had said and the significant other was invited during the orientation

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they could have shortcut it what ended up being a very difficult decision for a family and i always

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use the analogy when i have about the cape going you hand a man or woman the cape when they walk

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in the door of the academy they're not giving it back even if they should based on their significant

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other impact or what it does to them they're not giving it back you're either going to take it from

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them by firing them or they're going to wear it through that entire career and be full of holes

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some of which you can never fix and i think that that's one of those areas we we're just missing

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the ball and and i respond a lot of chiefs will sometimes get upset with me when i said that and

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go hey pat do you realize how hard it is for us to get somebody in the door and now you want us to

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tell them all this stuff at orientation yes i do because if they're not leaving in the beginning

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when they should they're going to be a problem at some point along the way and you will have

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contributed to injuring them and you as a chief have said your number one thing is to protect

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your people well start before they ever get hired i love that i mean talking about the

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honesties i have literally put a kind of call to action this new year for courage in the fire

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service and when you you know you talk about courage immediately like what are you talking

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about we go into burning buildings we cut people from cars we hang off cliffs on ropes whatever

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it is and it's like yeah we do but where is the courage for us advocating for the work environment

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that will not only benefit us physically and mentally but also benefit our family dynamic

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we're absolute cowards because what happens when you talk about the 2472 oh that'll never happen

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they'll never go for it well excuse my language what a pussy attitude that is i thought you were

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you know a courageous warrior and yet when it comes to your own wellness you're not willing

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to put up a fight at all you know there is no sense whatsoever that the people making decisions

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about when you work work 40 hours and go home to their own bed every night but you're trying to

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you know you're saying it's not worth the fight to push back on why you work 56 hours a week

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80 with a mandatory that week you know this is the problem is that we've become so um god what's the

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right word uh castrated basically you know we're so beat down we're so tired that we don't have to

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fight where it actually matters and we talk about it's for them well let's not forget the more we're

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beaten down physically and mentally the worst firefighters we become so we're not only advocating

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for ourselves and our family which should be number one before the job even but we're actually

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pushing against the very thing that will make us fitter that will make us be able to think faster

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on our feet and assess a fire or perform a you know a cardiac algorithm or whatever it is

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and so we're beating our chest saying it's for them and it's not it's for them the people in

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the cities and the counties which is a complete false economy too because they're bleeding money

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because all of us are falling apart because of the way that we're worked no that's a great point and

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i i we've had some spirited discussions with a lot of chiefs so i have an incredible amount of respect

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for i said you know even if you don't want to take the moral view about you're taking care of your

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firefighter look at it from a total business sense investment you've put in that man or woman who now

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starts to break down who starts to get injured both physically and mentally and now they're off the

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job and you're bringing back people on overtime that you're depreciating their value as human

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beings because you got to force them back because you have no choice if you put the investment in

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on a proactive side and yes we haven't studied it for a number of years to be able to show exactly

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what that end savings would be but financially there's no doubt in my mind you would save on

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that and you would have a much more healthy crew one that would last longer one that the morale

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would be but i mean there's so many positives about it but i do think we get into that rigidity of

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it's got to be this way and we're not taking enough time to read the studies because they're

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scary and it goes we have to change the way we do business well how are we going to do that

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well you're going to have to experiment and some of it's not going to work and that research and

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development is going to cost some money yeah but you're still doing it for your people and i can't

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help but think that the men and women who work in your department if they know you're trying things

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because you think it will improve their quality of life yeah every firefighter is going to find

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something wrong with everything it's me included but they're going to see and go we're going to

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give that a try because maybe that will make my home life better maybe it'll make me feel better

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maybe i won't have as many nightmares i've got somebody to talk to so many positives can come

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out of it and if we don't do it we're going to be forced to do it at some point and the whole model

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of how many people we send to a call what their proficiencies are and whatever we're going to let

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down the public that we took that oath and swore that we're going to protect we're not going to be

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as good as we were because we're just too depleted the one thing i get asked a lot is can you send me

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studies that prove that a 42-hour work week would be healthier than a 56-hour work week

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and i just look at them did you just ask me that you know do you want to study to show that if you

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stand in the middle of a freeway and you get hit by a car it's detrimental to your anatomy like

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where do we draw the line and i've said this a lot the other thing i would also put people is

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show send me something that justifies the fact that you don't think you're worthy for a 40-hour

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work week but the people in the offices are you get up all night you get up to save lives they push

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papers have you know parties in the office with cake and pizza no one is working you know all day

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every day no one any profession look go see a construction site they're not working all day

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the road digger is not working all day everyone has high you know times they're working and downtime

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as do firefighters but until someone can explain to me why a firefighter should work 56 but anyone

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else should work 40 no one can because it's insanity we've devolved from the you know the

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cards and the dalmatian and you know the steamer you know this is where we're at now so this is the

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problem and i talked about this a lot i don't want to you know get on my soapbox and talk again again

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again but we have told ourselves a myth we have the most amazing schedule i work one day on i have

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two days off but we don't the work week is a work day in civilian world is nine hours with a one hour

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lunch so eight hours we work three hours shifts shoved together so we work three days on one day

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off so we don't work 10 days a month we work 30 days a month that's why when you add it up the

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math is like oh okay actually that's kind of shit now 24 72 would be a 42-hour work week it would be

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an extra 24-hour period because that second day you just got off shifts you worked eight hours

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when you get off so you've only got that third day it's even a day off that you're getting ready to

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go back on shift so that extra 24 would be life-changing for so many people and they'd

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start to be able to get a little closer to baseline when they come back and do the next shift so this

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is what's crazy is that no matter what the oh yeah but thing that comes back it's always nonsense

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the reality is the men and women in uniform deserve to have a work week that allows them to thrive

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and they deserve to be able to go home when they're done with their shift not be told that they have

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to stay shift after shift after shift well i think that word courage you brought up it it made me

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think when when it came up and i remember back being i was a young chief so this is in the

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early to mid 90s and um our shift the night before had been out on a on a working fire and

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had been up most of the night and the it just happened to be that the shift was coming on the

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next day and we were short we were small we're only five person shift this one tiny station

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and a couple of guys were were sick legitimately sick they'd been sick from their previous tour

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they didn't even come back for a fire and you know if a firefighter doesn't come back for a fire

316
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they're sick so we had two people who had to stay over and i remember it was lunchtime and

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both these guys were dead to the world in their chairs watching tv out cold and it was came to

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one o'clock and the lieutenant was like chief can i just leave them in the chairs i mean they're

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shot i'm like absolutely well about an hour later the village manager came down happened to walk

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through the day room saw two guys asleep in the chair at 1 30 in the afternoon and all of a sudden

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i had an irate boss in my office chewing me out about what what do you know what the public would

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think of this and i'm like the general public wasn't out there in those horrible conditions

323
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it was a freezing cold night those horrible conditions trying to save somebody's home and

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best yet save the neighbor's home have not slept at all and i go and do you want one of them working

325
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on your dad who's got a cardiac arrest 20 minutes from now who doesn't know one end of the box from

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another i go i'm okay with them sitting there and if you got to discipline anybody you can discipline

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me and we have to be okay with realizing that we're dealing with human bodies and what you're

328
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putting them through we are all i don't always like the athlete term because sometimes i think

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it gets taken in the other direction but but you absolutely are training to put your body

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to a stress point and to be at its maximum what it needs to be to keep yourself your partner and

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whoever you're responding to safe and realizing what it does to you and being okay with we're

332
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going to replenish sorry if you you don't like the visuals of it that's okay you'll really like the

333
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visuals when a great sharp crew shows up at your house in your worst moment and i think it takes

334
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courage as the leader to stand up and go that's what we're going to do and if that doesn't work

335
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for you i'm okay you really need to get another leader because then i can't look them in the eye

336
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and go i value your safety as a profession it appears that we've done a terrible job educating

337
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the public on what we do which is then why we have so many issues especially with these politicians

338
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you obviously have a much you know more veteran perspective than i do only at 14 years total in

339
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the fire service where have we gone wrong that to the fact that people are asking you know what are

340
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we buying you in the grocery store or complaining that there's a crew working out in a local gym or

341
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you know why is there a fire engine on my medical call when for example we've done ems a lot of us

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for 50 years now right i think there's the the fear of look behind the curtain um i think for so long

343
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our profession at least when i started the men who were in my fire station when i first

344
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went in we were doing 24 48s most of them had second jobs where they worked at least eight

345
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hours if not more on their two days off because that's where the income to support their family

346
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came from the fire service did not i was i was a high school teacher before i went to the fire

347
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service took a pay cut to go be a firefighter and so there was kind of this feeling of like

348
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well you didn't want to tell your neighbor that you had two incomes even though your neighbor's

349
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first income was more than you were making work in two jobs so there was this feeling of like

350
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we need to be very very quiet about what we do and why because it's going to sound like we're

351
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bragging instead of going out front and showing the public yeah this is what we do and why do we

352
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do some of the things you might look and go well i can't go shopping in my job what why i know

353
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there was a fire chief that ran into this this is years ago and um a lot of pushback and he sat with

354
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the union said no no problem i'm not going to give into that and have people not go to the store

355
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because i'm okay with that but i want you to do when you go to the stories because i want you to

356
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have a card table in the back of the emails and then when you go in and have somebody set it outside

357
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the store with the card table and offer to give away free pub ed stuff and do blood pressures

358
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so you're only going to be in there for half an hour just do that and let's see what happens

359
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and the response was amazing from the people in the public going holy cow i saw that fire truck

360
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parked there and it always used to bother me but they put my kin on or they took my mother's blood

361
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pressure whatever it was we were afraid to do so that inspired me we had an open house once

362
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and i said guys we're going to do a fashion show well immediately you know where their heads went

363
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relax not that kind of fashion show here's what i want you to do i said we're going to get people

364
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to come out and when the open house is busiest and first you're going to walk out in your turnout

365
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gear then you're going to walk out and just your ems with a scatoscope then you're going to walk

366
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out with your dive suit then you're going to walk out in a hands-med suit and so we then we did

367
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technical rescue must add 11 different outfits that people walked out in and when they were all

368
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standing out then we were a very small department we only had 35 people i said every one of the

369
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people you see who works here can do all those functions now in your business is there anybody

370
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in your business that can do that many functions that at the at the snap of a finger has to be able

371
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to jump into that function i said that's why these people do what they do that's why they have to

372
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have the time off that they have to have because many times when they're off they're also going

373
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to school because most of these professions require continuing education do you have a

374
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continuing education in your job that you'll lose it if you don't do it they do my medics do

375
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and it's their job and in james it was the reaction again simple thing i mean but people were like

376
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amazed going up shaking the guy's hands going oh my god i never knew this and the feedback from the

377
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guys was well we just thought they knew i mean if they call for a dive rescue who do they think

378
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somebody from alabama's coming i'm like they don't know and it's our fault we need to be okay with

379
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blowing our own horn you know you know how this is you want to embarrass the firefighter you give

380
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them an award especially at a board meeting we don't want to blow our own horn but you need to do

381
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that in order to let people know otherwise if you want to blame somebody then you got to look in the

382
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mirror because we just didn't tell them and i think that's where we've missed the boat and i think

383
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that's also why we're struggling with the recruiting is we're still not telling people all the neat

384
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things that we do including then what do we do when we have to handle the things that are difficult

385
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and traumatic to take care of ourselves absolutely yeah i've had some of the professions that in the

386
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:58,400
special operations community that aren't known for writing books obviously the seals everyone tongue

387
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,960
in cheek said every seal writes a book but you know you hear this this term the quiet professional

388
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:07,600
the silent professional and absolutely i mean obviously you're not going to want to know the

389
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:12,880
things that you shouldn't know about that group but there's so much value in the lessons that

390
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:17,840
they learn and some of the storytelling and now you know some of the delta guys and green berets

391
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:24,720
and pj's are out you know writing about their you know stories and being more public because otherwise

392
00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:29,840
like you said we don't know what they do and there's a lot of value to us knowing parts of what these

393
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,680
people do and it's the same with the fire service and i always point this out who is the jocco

394
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:38,880
willing of the fire service yeah you know what i mean who is our spokesperson who is the who is

395
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:44,560
the one that's out there you know we don't have that so again if you aren't educating the public

396
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:49,920
then they just get to make up their own stories and then that's bolstered by us walking around

397
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:54,960
going oh my god it's the best job in the world you know we only work eight days a month you know so

398
00:37:54,960 --> 00:38:00,240
we feed into this this fantasy oh yeah so i think you know whether it's the the people writing books

399
00:38:00,240 --> 00:38:04,000
and i'm writing my second one now and i'm hoping that it's going to get made into a show because

400
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:09,680
i want to i want to show the real side and i don't mean that to be doom and gloom but the grittiness

401
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:15,040
of what it actually is is like to be a firefighter the inability to save sometimes all these things

402
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:19,600
that just don't make it to you know chicago fire and i had chick on the show and i know

403
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:25,920
the result of the script isn't always what he's written you know it's then taken by hollywood and

404
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:30,320
ah let's let's make it a happy ending kind of thing so you know where is the representation

405
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:35,440
we've got ladder 49 we got only the brave we've got a handful of shows that kind of touch on it

406
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:41,040
a little bit but we as a profession individually and nationally need to do a much better job

407
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:44,240
of educating like you said not just to the public understands what we do

408
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:51,760
but the real recruits the real candidates can see this is the good this is the kind of shit side

409
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:59,600
you know are you ready let's go right no and i think though um one of the things that i

410
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:05,280
run across that's interesting to me is do you know who does sometimes the best job of their

411
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:12,160
own advertising our volunteer fire departments not your career organizations ones who run

412
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,800
god bless them who have a five thousand dollar budget and that includes everything that they're

413
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:23,360
going to have for the entire year and might run 25 calls a year but they depend on the community

414
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:29,520
to fund them and they fill the community in on exactly what they're trained to do how many hours

415
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:33,920
they train what they train on and the other thing they do that's that's enlightening to me

416
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:39,280
is they tell them the truth do you know if you get if you call at three o'clock in the afternoon

417
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,920
we only have two people in town who are able to come back to go out with that crew because

418
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:49,040
all of the rest of us are working out of the community so just realize that that's what's

419
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:53,920
happening do you think if you work from home now you might be available to come in and would you

420
00:39:53,920 --> 00:40:00,080
like to join our special team or and they've really struggled for the last 15 years on recruiting and

421
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:06,720
retention but they're still holding their own because the community needs to know i have a chief

422
00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:11,840
who taught me very early in my career he said your job is to tell the village board what they don't

423
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:17,120
want to hear not what they do want to hear if you really believe your staffing is too short if you

424
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:22,960
believe your response time now has gotten impacted by traffic or whatever you need to make a report

425
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:31,600
and not a there's a dead baby in the road report details statistics do your research and say you

426
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:38,240
get to make the ultimate decision on what is the quality of care we provide i get that i don't i

427
00:40:38,240 --> 00:40:44,320
don't have the budget strings but if i don't tell you what we struggle with and where we need to go

428
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,880
then that's on me because if i'm a village board member and that comes up at some point i'm going

429
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,480
to go excuse me sir you've been in the fire service for 30 years you've been our chief for

430
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:58,560
15 and you never told me that your people struggle with from sleep deprivation maybe you should have

431
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:03,760
told me that and we have to sometimes believe in those folks to do the right thing too and so i

432
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:09,600
think when leaders get they can also get pigeonholed and told well you none of you care about us i

433
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:14,880
don't think that's true either i think we have to educate them and then give them a chance to care

434
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:19,440
and i think sometimes we don't do that well i think another thing that i see when it comes to

435
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:25,360
you know the the politician side as well is the tax cuts like when does anyone ever explain to

436
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:32,480
a member of public that when we cut this tax you know that results in a minimum lower staffing or

437
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:39,200
even a browning out or a closing of a station that you know yeah so the so the tax are being cut but

438
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:43,840
the people aren't getting money back you know so as as the delivery of someone trying to say is as

439
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:48,560
the delivery of service diminishes the public aren't getting a refund oh we're going to give

440
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:52,800
oh we're going to give you crappy a service but here's you know five grand back this year

441
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:57,600
they're not so they're not educated on the impact of some of these political decisions too

442
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:03,840
and if a family knew or if it's say you know a community knew that by making this cut the

443
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:10,000
nearest fire engine or rescue might be 10 miles away now instead of five that would change the

444
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:14,880
way they think completely that would change the way they vote but again we don't do a good job of

445
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:21,600
explaining to people nationally i would argue of the you know the the life safety impact of some

446
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:28,400
of these budget decisions you know so i think that's another area is really getting people

447
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:34,800
to understand that as you said like we're jack of all trades master of none if you call 911 or 999

448
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:40,160
in england or you know with all the other numbers and the people you expect to come don't come

449
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:45,440
your children are going to die i don't think there's anything more you know powerful than

450
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:52,080
really storytelling and illustrating that point right and i think that when i've seen referendums

451
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:58,080
go out um one of the fears i'll see when it doesn't look like they've educated about okay if this

452
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:02,560
doesn't pass what's going to be the downside is well we don't want to be accused that we're

453
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:09,120
trying to scare people so well you're not scaring them if you tell them the truth if you're lying

454
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:13,040
about it and trying to get them to vote because you want to scare them then yeah you shouldn't

455
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:18,880
even be in our business but telling them up front because nobody be included sitting in that booth

456
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:25,040
going oh my god another tax hike for what we got to give you the for what and we also have to tell

457
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:28,800
you then we didn't just walk in here because we're looking for more toys and we're looking for more

458
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:34,480
people to fill a building we're looking for it because we've identified a risk that we can't

459
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:40,640
handle and we need the resources to do that and then you leave it to them but most people just

460
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:46,640
look at it when they see a referendum for a fire station and go no we got enough for that well

461
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:52,640
that's because you haven't told them what happens if you don't absolutely well i want to circle back

462
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:58,640
to 2023 then i know you know you had some you know some pretty traumatic issues and for people

463
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:05,600
listening to episode uh what i say it was 2266 and then 676 if they heard that one as well um you

464
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:10,240
know they'll know all the trauma that you had personally obviously some of the calls that you

465
00:44:10,240 --> 00:44:15,120
had through your career um talk to me about last year because obviously there's there's a couple of

466
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:20,160
issues specifically that uh you know hit you pretty pretty hard for two different reasons

467
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:28,000
yeah um i'll start with one that um i would have never believed would have happened so i retired in

468
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:35,040
in january of 2021 i had the honor to work for two different fire departments hensdale fire department

469
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:41,040
in western springs and i worked with some of the best men and women out there i i was incredibly

470
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:45,520
blessed i always said i would have liked to have been the chief of a large department i had two

471
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:51,520
small departments and found that it was a gift because i got to know everybody and got to know

472
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:58,400
their families and and was the recipient of that support from both organizations it when shawn was

473
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:05,520
sick and passed and then when eileen was sick and passed but on july the fifth of this past year

474
00:45:06,720 --> 00:45:12,320
my middle son patrick and my daughter liabby and my my two granddaughters the the absolute

475
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:18,000
best things that have ever happened to me caroline and mave um only live about 20 or 25 minutes away

476
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:23,920
from me and i got a call from my son there's a big storm coming through thunderstorm and about 6 30

477
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:30,560
in the evening and uh so dad he goes the lightning hit and there's a power line down uh and it's

478
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:37,200
arcing between the two garages um what what should we do and i go did you call 911 he said yeah i

479
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:44,000
said well don't go outside stay in the house unless you smell smoke and as i'm saying and

480
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:51,600
i'm praying i'm going please don't arc towards their home well it did and a few minutes later

481
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:56,240
he called and said yeah it smells like smoke i think the garage is on fire and there was a knock

482
00:45:56,240 --> 00:46:00,160
at the door and it was the firefighters who had arrived that were evacuating them what had happened

483
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:05,200
was it was a primary line that came down between could have gone either way to their garage or

484
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:11,040
another ended up hitting their attached garage electrified the garage ran up into the soffit

485
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:17,040
and literally electrified the whole home at one point the gutters are blowing off you so the

486
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:23,360
responding units could not make entry until the electric company came to kill the power and i've

487
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:28,400
had a couple of those fires in my career as an incident commander and there is no worse feeling

488
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:33,680
than standing there with 20 or 30 people willing to go to work going to do whatever they want in

489
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:40,320
the family watching you all stand there because there's nothing you can do so i get i get the

490
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:46,000
call now for the first time in my life i'm responding it in we joke in our area a lot of

491
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:51,200
times when fire chiefs retire all of a sudden they have more scanners and more radios than they were

492
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:56,960
had in their entire life and they chase fires um i have not done that this was the first fire that

493
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:04,000
had come in since i retired that was like i need to go so what was my first reaction downstairs in

494
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:09,520
my basement right here behind me over my shoulders is the closet and in that closet was my bunker coat

495
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:15,920
that i was given when i retired um wrapped in plastic up on the top shelf and i hung up the

496
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:20,160
phone and i ran down the stairs and i tore the plastic open and i pulled the bunker coat out

497
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:25,840
now i did it for in my mind i'm never going to get past the security line with the police because

498
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:30,480
i don't have lights and sirens i got a private vehicle i don't have it i don't have any my gear

499
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:37,440
anymore this might at least get me through the lines i believe that was part of it i also believe

500
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:42,960
the other part of it was that was my i was going back to my cape like this is going to help how the

501
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:49,840
hell who knows but it's going to help so i'm driving there now no radio so i have no idea

502
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:56,080
where this is going have they knocked it have they not knocked it i'm i'm literally on my bluetooth

503
00:47:56,080 --> 00:48:01,840
calling every chief that i know responds to that on a mutual aid and they can't get an answer which

504
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:07,760
is not a good time i pull around my son had texted me and said dad you're not going to get close to

505
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:11,760
the house because the storm was so bad the streets were flooded you're going to have to park at least

506
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:16,960
a block away and i remember i turned on the block and so i could see at the end of the block their

507
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:23,920
home and i took one look and i went oh my god it's gone and they were just going to the roof at that

508
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:29,760
point so it's probably 25 30 minutes into the incident before they're even starting to go put

509
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:37,120
water on the fire it had run the whole roof line it was down into the first floor and i walked up

510
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:45,120
first found my son and my daughter-in-law and uh there is absolutely nothing you can say at that

511
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:50,560
moment other than i'm so glad you got out my two granddaughters thank goodness were at what are

512
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:56,000
at a relative's house so they didn't go through the trauma of it but i said let me go find out

513
00:48:56,000 --> 00:49:01,440
where things are at so i walk up to the two chiefs that i both of whom i've known for 20 years

514
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:07,920
and as i walk up they turn around and go well you finally started to chase fires and i went

515
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:15,200
no i go that's my son's house and the one chief looked at me and said oh my god patty told me his

516
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:20,880
dad was a firefighter he didn't say it was you they go so where are we at and so they gave me a rundown

517
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:26,000
and said hey if there's anything you need to do or feel like you want to do here you just you just

518
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:33,600
let us know we'll hand you a radio and i go it hit me at that moment and ironically everybody there

519
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:40,560
all the all the white coats and there were loads of them all had yellow reflective trim my coat

520
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:47,280
because it's an old old coat has red reflective trim and in the still pictures afterwards that

521
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:54,080
somebody showed me said we could tell you were wearing your cape and i went back to my car and

522
00:49:54,080 --> 00:50:00,880
i took my coat off because i'm like i can't do anything and i'm thinking like what can i do and

523
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:09,360
it's like i really think it was up above whispering to me you just need to be their dad and i went over

524
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:14,800
and just hugged them and cried and watched as these guys just did a remarkable job to save what they

525
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:20,960
could and and i watched the care they provided to them just going back and checking on them and

526
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:24,320
filling them in where things were at and why they were doing what they were doing and then

527
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:30,640
taking them through that horrible walkthrough afterwards where i things are toys are floating

528
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:36,400
and clothes are all damaged and you see a crib that's full of the plaster that's come down from

529
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:41,680
pulling the ceiling all that stuff that i'd seen loads of times in my 40-year career but none under

530
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:50,240
these circumstances and i left feeling so empty like all those years and there was nothing i could

531
00:50:50,240 --> 00:50:56,080
do and i had to reframe okay yeah there is something you can do now you've got to do something going

532
00:50:56,080 --> 00:51:02,720
forward to help them with the process and you just need to be there and if that's all you can do

533
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:10,320
that's okay because right now there's no other choice and for my friends who found out about it

534
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:15,440
later in fact a number of them who saw something through social media called me with this very

535
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:21,040
hesitant voice because they thought it was my house that burned down and they were like oh man

536
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:25,280
this guy this guy he's got the biggest black cloud over his head and you have to have that

537
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:30,960
conversation where you go well it's kind of a good news bad news the good news i guess is it wasn't

538
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:37,200
my house the bad news is i wish it was my house because it was my son's and trying to rebuild

539
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:43,120
through the summer and watching them go through the whole insurance process because we respond

540
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:48,080
and we do the best we can in that acute situation and we leave it as good we can and then we leave

541
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:52,640
and we don't really see the other trauma that goes on as they try to rebuild their lives whether

542
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:58,400
you go to somebody and you get there and their parent is deceased or you have a house fire where

543
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:05,760
they lose everything we're gone i now live through watching them go through the rest of this and

544
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:13,360
their resiliency their courage we talked about that earlier was so inspiring to me that it kept

545
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:20,800
me going because they were not going to let this beat them they were pleased their girls hadn't

546
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:25,440
gone through the trauma so trying to explain to a four-year-old we're not going to be living here

547
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:29,440
for a while but you're going to get to go back when you do you're going to get to pick the color

548
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:34,400
we're going to paint your room we're going to reframing it even through all the lines that we

549
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:40,800
had gone through it was like hey i got nothing to complain about here i just need to go is there

550
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:44,720
anything else that i can do and and the other thing that came out of it that was powerful

551
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:49,520
and and i struggle sometimes with and we had this discussion before we started like people

552
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:54,560
always ask me okay you convinced me to take the cake off how do you put it back on again

553
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:58,320
well whatever inspires you when you go through a trauma to want to get back in the ring whether

554
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:05,760
that's that's life in general or it's in our profession that night literally on the front

555
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:11,200
lawn while it's pouring they had neighbors come over and it's a young family neighborhood

556
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:18,240
neighbors come over who said our parents have summer homes in indiana or wisconsin or whatever

557
00:53:18,240 --> 00:53:22,640
we're going to pack up our car right now and we're going to drive up there for a couple of weeks

558
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:29,520
just go into our house till you get yourself settled do you see where i saw the best of humanity

559
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:35,280
come out that night in the worst situation and it made me feel like yeah cape ain't working for me

560
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:42,560
but that guy and that girl they've got the cape on because they've seen a trauma and they can do

561
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:49,040
something about it and just that support um was incredibly powerful and so we we've made our way

562
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:53,920
through that we had a very nice christmas they're in a ironically they're in a home

563
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:58,880
renting in the next community over from where their home was in western springs where i was

564
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:04,240
the fire chief so they're kind of known that they're in the neighborhood and uh and people

565
00:54:04,240 --> 00:54:08,160
have been phenomenal there and by the end of summer they'll be back in their home and they'll

566
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:13,760
be living in a wonderful neighborhood again in the grange park that they had before but it's the

567
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:18,880
journey and uh the bumps in the journey something i would never would have anticipated being touched

568
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:25,600
directly so that was the first one well just uh kind of reply to that one i think it mirrors

569
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:32,000
what i've talked about somewhat recently which is the again we were saying what is not discussed

570
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:36,080
when we're you know told about the fire service especially when we have our orientation and it's

571
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:42,480
the inability to save and i have just been you talk about black cloud i have never saved a full

572
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:48,160
arrest in 14 years i was just that that shit magnet everything that you could die from is what

573
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:55,040
i you know the patients that i had from gi bleeds to you know aneurysms all the things um and it just

574
00:54:55,040 --> 00:55:00,080
is what it is and it was interesting as you were standing there you with the coat on but more so

575
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:07,680
the crew that was on scene the that cape when you're when you make a save when you do the thing that

576
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:14,800
you're known for is the thing of immense pride but when you are the paramedic or the firefighter and

577
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:20,560
you can't save that person's child there's almost an element of shame wearing that cape because

578
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:25,120
everyone at medic school and everyone in fire academy told me if you did a b and c you'd have

579
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:30,960
an outcome d and here you are now standing in the street and some mother is screaming because their

580
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:35,040
infant just died in your arms you know so i think that's a powerful you know perspective

581
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:41,760
the other one that occurred um occurred on november 1st and that date is a real special

582
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:47,280
date for me because that was the date um when eileen was getting close to making her

583
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:53,200
journey to the other side and uh and sean appeared to her in our room and told her he was going to

584
00:55:53,200 --> 00:56:01,440
come get her so it's always been a very special day for me and uh this year it wasn't uh or 2023

585
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:08,480
it wasn't so my my niece um her 40 year old husband um had a massive heart attack um in the

586
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:17,440
morning and died leaving behind four kids um nine and under um this guy tony went one of the biggest

587
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:22,880
the irony one of the biggest hearts of people that you would ever see um just a wonderful husband

588
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:29,440
a great dad had taken his kids trick-or-treating the night before um and the next day he was

589
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:37,920
gone and trying to get the courage um i don't know that i thought about in the moment about okay i

590
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:43,200
gotta find somehow find a cape because i knew i couldn't save her i knew the pain she was in

591
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:47,920
and gonna go through and there was nothing i could do about it but it was like trying to search for

592
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:54,960
what do you do how do you how do you have this conversation and tremendous support from her

593
00:56:54,960 --> 00:57:01,600
they were very close family in-laws brother-in-laws everybody was one big family so they had built a

594
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:07,040
phenomenal family unit that really they didn't realize they would need for this kind of event

595
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:11,840
but they they were there and when i finally got a chance to talk to her

596
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:19,760
i said we we have a common ground but we don't i said you went through three losses there in those

597
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:28,800
minutes you lost the love of your life your spouse but you also lost the husband of your children

598
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:35,760
the father of your children but you lost your best friend too and i go people don't realize

599
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:43,200
what it's like that when you grieve you're grieving almost like in silos for for some of your moments

600
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:50,160
i go you're going to be battling through that feeling that that injustice of we were going to

601
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:54,080
have 40 years together and i lost my husband and then you're going to go into another room that's

602
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:57,760
going to be how am i going to raise these four children and then you're going to go in another

603
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:03,360
room like when i'm when i'm alone and tired and don't think i can go on the person i would talk

604
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:12,400
to the most i can't talk directly to them and i don't think i i thought i was going to be

605
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:18,240
i thought i felt really helpless on july 5th standing on that lawn i think talking to christina

606
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:25,360
alone in a room and trying to find the right things to say was incredibly difficult and and

607
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:30,080
i wrote about it in the book about when you run into that sometimes the best thing you can do is

608
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:37,120
just hug somebody because you don't have anything verbally to make it better you just don't and and

609
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:43,520
so i squeezed her and just said these people will be here they're not going to abandon you and and

610
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:50,000
it's really going to suck and there's nothing else we can do at that point and she's been amazing

611
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:56,080
her family's been amazing going through you can imagine going through the holidays um her oldest

612
00:58:56,080 --> 00:59:02,960
son had a birthday only a couple of weeks afterwards and she's an inspiration to me what she's done

613
00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:10,880
um she's trying to wear the cape and i'm sure more times than not feeling like she's she's not

614
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:16,240
doing it but she's she's doing amazing and all the other people around her or family the people

615
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:22,160
who love her friends are all trying to do what they can to to help but it's just another reality

616
00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:28,080
check of you think you have everything planned out and then something like that happens and i

617
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:33,760
i think it wakes everybody up to go yeah tomorrow's not promised to everybody and you really do need

618
00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:38,880
to make a point of telling people you love them all the time and realizing when you're fortunate

619
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:45,760
you have it that way because at some point you may not and how you adjust to that um like i told her

620
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:50,000
i said if you get out of bed in the morning you have made an incredible accomplishment and you

621
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:57,680
need to celebrate that because for this day that's the gold standard and eventually hopefully through

622
00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:02,720
help and assistance you're going to be able to climb a little bit higher but for right now

623
01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:08,480
the bar is set real low because you you couldn't be up against anything that i could imagine it

624
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:12,960
could be any more difficult than what you're facing and i'm so proud of her and her family

625
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:18,800
am i right in understanding he was a firefighter no no he was not he was not okay i must have must

626
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:24,000
have misread that though it was his his brother is a firefighter okay that's what it was then

627
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:30,080
our brother's a firefighter my nephew right so with you know all this trauma that you've had you know

628
01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:34,720
watching watching your son's house burn down and then you know losing this loved one as well and

629
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:39,920
then trying to be there for your niece what was some of the things that you started leaning into

630
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:44,160
yourself we talk about putting the cape on let's not even think about the cape specifically just

631
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:50,480
your own self-care and all this you know grief being pulled up from the past as well i think i

632
01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:58,880
had to first of all become come face to face with limitations um because usually back to when we

633
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:02,480
train the very beginning it's like there really isn't anything you can't do if you put your mind

634
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:09,440
to it well not true uh if i could bring tony back i would have been done november 1st so what were

635
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:18,800
what are my limitations um i found myself having flashbacks found myself having nightmares um and

636
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:26,080
so immediately like i preach don't always follow um i called my counselor and said i need to come

637
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:31,600
in and i need to talk to you um i've had a couple things happen and i go and i'm not in a good place

638
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:37,360
and went in and had very frank discussions with her about what was going on and she's like

639
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:44,320
yeah you're reliving it because what i didn't mention was november 1st tony went to heaven

640
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:51,600
well eileen's anniversary is november 5th so it was that loss watching her pain

641
01:01:53,040 --> 01:02:00,160
having the services and then reliving the pain of seven what was seven years ago in november

642
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:10,480
and realizing that i needed to still tell myself there were boundaries you can't bring him back

643
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:16,880
you can't save the day here you can't make everybody happy so do what you can and realize

644
01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:23,600
when you're getting too close because there are plenty of other people who are with her who are

645
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:29,760
more equipped to do what needs to be done than you are and be okay with that don't be helpless be

646
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:36,880
her uncle be there be available be comfortable with the uncomfortable and that's far enough

647
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:42,640
and then i really leaned into my faith and she has a tremendous amount of faith and i'm

648
01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:47,680
so thankful for it and i and i told her i go there's loads of times through this journey now

649
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:53,280
where you're gonna go you're gonna question it and i go and that's okay you should question it but

650
01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:58,720
if you didn't have it if you didn't really believe he was somewhere safe that that he's

651
01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:03,520
gonna watch you and he's gonna try to take care of you from a different spot i said you wouldn't get

652
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:10,160
out of that bed and you i said i wouldn't still be here if i didn't have my faith and so i i leaned

653
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:14,320
back into that i talked to the pastor at our church and i said can you just pray for their

654
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:18,960
family on a regular basis i don't even know what you can say but whatever you can do to have

655
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:23,920
somebody up there listening if they can make their day just a little bit easier make one of the kids

656
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:30,720
maybe smile to give a little bit of anything at all i go i'm all in whatever you can get do it um

657
01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:35,680
and that that helped and then obviously talking to my own family about it to the people in my

658
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:40,880
inner circle about i don't know what to do and getting reinforcement for you doing the best you

659
01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:47,760
can um that that was and continues to be very helpful what you were talking about not having

660
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:54,000
the words i think that's that's hard as a man you know because men i wanted to be fixers but then

661
01:03:54,000 --> 01:04:00,480
when you add in a male firefighter you know we're a fixer who fixes you know it's a double whammy it's

662
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:06,240
it's a compounding effect that's something that i've i've had to learn is it's okay not to say

663
01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:11,680
anything it's okay to simply just as you said either sit down and be there and be quiet with

664
01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:17,920
someone or let them talk or you know just give them a hug and not try and offer a solution of

665
01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:23,840
something that can't be fixed just to simply be present and be there with them right right no and

666
01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:29,760
it was um those are those are the things i think when we go through in life whether you're you're a

667
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:36,320
firefighter or whatever you're dealing with in life um when those traumas hit you first they knock

668
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:42,000
you on your ass and then it's trying to get back up and figure out what's the first step you take

669
01:04:42,560 --> 01:04:48,960
how do i how do i get back moving forward because i can't just stay in this horrific spot

670
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:55,280
and for most of the time you need help to get out of there you need somebody to throw you a line

671
01:04:55,280 --> 01:05:01,120
whether it's a counselor or it's a clergy or it's a really good friend or somebody to help pull you

672
01:05:01,120 --> 01:05:07,440
just inches forward and you may not even see or feel the progress until you look back a year later

673
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:14,000
but somebody's got to intervene because we weren't created to live alone we were created to be part

674
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:19,520
of this team and we forget about that sometimes and usually when you get hit with that trauma i

675
01:05:19,520 --> 01:05:26,960
think it knocks that team family concept totally out of your head and you need to lean on it even

676
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:32,960
more that there are others who may provide what i just don't have right now and if you look at it

677
01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:38,960
that if they were in the situation you are wouldn't you want to try to help so give them a chance let

678
01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:43,200
them do whatever it is because that may be the one thing you need that particular day

679
01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:50,560
on a more macro perspective we touched on the pandemic you know and then obviously the the

680
01:05:50,560 --> 01:05:56,320
police issue and the covid and now you know ukraine and palestine you name it insert thing here

681
01:05:56,960 --> 01:06:02,480
i've watched the country become very divided deliberately from certain groups you know but

682
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:08,080
then even if you look at the fire service we are very fragmented there's not a lot of communication

683
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:13,840
between departments you know police and fire or county and city or whatever it is how whether

684
01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:19,040
within our profession or even nationally how do we rebuild that community and tribalism that we

685
01:06:19,040 --> 01:06:26,400
seem to have lost certainly the last eight plus years or so i think part of it is um what used to

686
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:33,680
be the strength probably at least looked at that way by by most of the services were you were always

687
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:38,560
kind of the old joke about well okay then you know if we're going to stop by the firehouse policemen

688
01:06:38,560 --> 01:06:41,920
are going to come in and they're going to look at your lazy boys and the firemen are going to

689
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:46,000
wonder why you got powdered sugar on your shirt you know in the whole nine yards there and we

690
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:52,000
kidded about that but we definitely had our pride of our barriers of what this is my culture this

691
01:06:52,000 --> 01:06:58,640
is your culture never the two shall match and i i always get a kick out of um sometimes when

692
01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:04,960
somebody will recruit me to be a speaker um they'll find out that i'm a firefighter and not a police

693
01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:09,040
officer and they'll be they'll say well this could be a difficult audience you could be talking to

694
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:16,400
and i go why i said just because i i didn't wear that kind of badge um this is a huge i'm talking

695
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:22,320
about a human problem not a fire service problem not a police problem it's and so i think we built

696
01:07:22,320 --> 01:07:29,760
those walls so i mean you look at fdny and nypd and 9-11 and and the discussions afterwards about

697
01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:34,640
the lack of communications and having all these barriers built that you couldn't get through to

698
01:07:34,640 --> 01:07:39,920
each other and the angst that that created and i've talked to some people from fdny and this is so this

699
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:46,240
isn't you know gospel at all but it's like there's still so much frustration about them being able

700
01:07:46,240 --> 01:07:51,840
to communicate and that's certainly not just for them that goes that goes across the country even

701
01:07:51,840 --> 01:07:56,800
little rural departments that well we don't really respond with them well why not well some chief

702
01:07:56,800 --> 01:08:00,400
40 years ago pissed off the people in our organization so we don't we don't go it's like

703
01:08:01,040 --> 01:08:05,600
you you gotta be kidding me right like we need we need to drop those and realize

704
01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:13,120
we're all on the team the same team that's the human team and part of the human element and so

705
01:08:13,120 --> 01:08:19,200
working to build each other's team as opposed to making mine better than yours is where i think we

706
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:27,360
need to go and so more conferences and education where we meet together so not so much the education

707
01:08:27,360 --> 01:08:31,360
the formal education you're getting is going to be the most important but the networking

708
01:08:32,400 --> 01:08:39,200
my brother-in-law god rest his soul bob passed away from als and we always used to kid about

709
01:08:40,320 --> 01:08:46,720
your i could never do your job he would say i would say to him and he'd go

710
01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:52,240
but i think i could do yours and i said why is that and he goes because i have to do mine by myself

711
01:08:52,240 --> 01:08:56,000
and he goes you're right you'd never last five minutes alone in a squad car by yourself but he

712
01:08:56,000 --> 01:09:01,360
goes i really like being part of a team so i think i could i think that's right and when we would talk

713
01:09:01,360 --> 01:09:09,120
about the similarities of what we went through 90 of it was the same 10 kind of unique to each

714
01:09:09,120 --> 01:09:13,360
profession but we're afraid to talk about that because you certainly didn't want some police

715
01:09:13,360 --> 01:09:18,080
officer to know that you thought like he did because there might be something wrong with them

716
01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:25,200
then i mean so so getting groups together and breaking down those walls that we we don't it's

717
01:09:25,200 --> 01:09:30,240
not your territory in my territory it's our territory and if we don't have each other's backs

718
01:09:30,240 --> 01:09:36,640
who will who's going to understand looking at the face of police officers at attention when a coffin

719
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:41,600
goes by about a police officer who's been killed in the line of duty we know what that feels like

720
01:09:41,600 --> 01:09:46,720
but well that's no different so why are we not reaching out so that we're responding so that

721
01:09:46,720 --> 01:09:51,600
we're going to those funerals so that we're showing support that we're we're trying to promote training

722
01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:56,320
that brings all of the professions together some of the best places i've gone to speak that were

723
01:09:56,320 --> 01:10:01,200
the most i shouldn't say best but were to me the most fulfilling was when the audience was a mixed

724
01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:06,720
audience it was fire it was ems it was police it was dispatchers it was prison guards it was you

725
01:10:06,720 --> 01:10:11,760
name it and they were all invited because they were seen as the first responding profession you

726
01:10:11,760 --> 01:10:17,040
help people who are in trouble you protect the community okay well then it's one common voice

727
01:10:17,040 --> 01:10:21,520
it's a lot easier to discern the message than if i got to get it translated through the firewall

728
01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:26,720
the police wall the dispatch wall and i think but that's a concerted effort back to what we talked

729
01:10:26,720 --> 01:10:33,200
about with the educating the public and educating elected officials about work day and we it gets

730
01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:38,880
pushed way down yeah that's a good idea we'll do that someday and then it's like saying you're

731
01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:42,320
going to get together with your favorite couple and realizing a year's gone by and you're in a

732
01:10:42,320 --> 01:10:47,840
wake together and you never got together if you don't make a point of it and make it formal and

733
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:52,960
have the leadership set up to do that it's just going to keep get a can kick down the alley

734
01:10:53,760 --> 01:10:59,120
absolutely well just as a side tangent you mentioned bob with als did he play football

735
01:10:59,120 --> 01:11:05,120
when he was younger basketball player oh so not because it just seemed like there was a correlation

736
01:11:05,120 --> 01:11:11,440
between head trauma and als later in life right i have read i read some of that no he was he was

737
01:11:13,200 --> 01:11:17,120
really good basketball player good athlete and just noticed that he had a numbness in his hand

738
01:11:17,120 --> 01:11:23,600
now his his life another one talk about inspiring like my niece um he was diagnosed and for nine

739
01:11:23,600 --> 01:11:30,160
years fought als he worked as a police sergeant he was due to be promoted to deputy chief told

740
01:11:30,160 --> 01:11:34,240
the chief i can't take it because i don't know how long i'm going to be here and how long i'm

741
01:11:34,240 --> 01:11:43,360
going to be um he one vow he had i am never going to spend a day in a wheelchair or in a hospital

742
01:11:43,360 --> 01:11:51,040
bed his so for nine years he battled als he was in the beginning still mobile started to lose the

743
01:11:51,040 --> 01:11:57,520
use of an arm and another hand and but still could his family was amazing the madden family

744
01:11:57,520 --> 01:12:05,360
his his wife buoy and his kids um all amazing would help him to bed everything and finally it

745
01:12:05,360 --> 01:12:09,760
had gotten really really bad his choking reflex was really difficult he had just retired from

746
01:12:09,760 --> 01:12:14,960
the police department his police chief was amazing in terms of supporting him so he could went to

747
01:12:14,960 --> 01:12:22,560
work every day and finally his wife buoy was like baba it's just too hard now to handle you

748
01:12:23,200 --> 01:12:27,520
we're gonna have to get a wheelchair and we're gonna get a hospital bed and it's gonna come on

749
01:12:27,520 --> 01:12:30,880
monday and i'm sorry but it's something we need to do and put in the living room and

750
01:12:31,600 --> 01:12:38,000
so eileen and i went over there that sunday and he was still in rare form i made some crack about

751
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:46,000
police versus fire and he kicked me from the lazy boy he was in and uh great great next morning at

752
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:51,840
six o'clock in the morning we get a phone call that he's passed the morning the bed and the

753
01:12:51,840 --> 01:12:56,880
wheelchair were supposed to be delivered now his wife buoy would go for a run in the morning that

754
01:12:56,880 --> 01:13:02,800
was her that was what kept her mental health and he was awake and she kissed him goodbye before

755
01:13:02,800 --> 01:13:08,320
she left and when she came back he had gone to heaven and one of the first people she called

756
01:13:08,320 --> 01:13:15,760
was my wife eileen who was her and bob were like this and when we got there there was no look

757
01:13:16,480 --> 01:13:22,880
of fear on his face but there was a look of determination and i knew that look from all

758
01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:29,200
those years i had known him and i really believe in that time she was gone he had a discussion

759
01:13:29,200 --> 01:13:34,400
with somebody on the other side and said for nine years i've never i never heard him complain i have

760
01:13:34,400 --> 01:13:38,640
never complained about this i told you if you're going to give this horrible illness to somebody

761
01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:43,680
in my family give it to me and you did but i am not going in that wheelchair and i am not going

762
01:13:43,680 --> 01:13:48,880
in that bed so you need to get me the hell out of here before my wife comes back and watches me pass

763
01:13:48,880 --> 01:13:54,560
and i i can't wait to get to heaven to find out if he goes typical you were wrong but i want to be

764
01:13:54,560 --> 01:14:00,560
able to have that conversation because i believe it he he he was done fighting and he was not going

765
01:14:00,560 --> 01:14:06,720
to go it's an amazing story because i don't believe in coincidences no coincidence that he

766
01:14:06,720 --> 01:14:11,360
passed that morning before that delivery came so that truck showed up and that stuff went back

767
01:14:11,360 --> 01:14:16,960
and he never spent a day in either one of those amazing story amazing man oh here's the other

768
01:14:16,960 --> 01:14:22,080
part that'll make you smile so it's a very sad story except so he had lost really was losing

769
01:14:22,080 --> 01:14:30,080
the ability to write every year on their wedding anniversary but he gets flowers and a handwritten

770
01:14:30,080 --> 01:14:37,200
card from him now that's continued over the past decade so he wrote those he set up with his son

771
01:14:37,200 --> 01:14:42,960
to make sure here's what you need in order to get the flowers for mom make sure that happens she

772
01:14:42,960 --> 01:14:49,040
lives for that day to get that handwritten note from and i will tell you bob was not mr romantic

773
01:14:49,040 --> 01:14:54,000
and he would be the first one to tell you that most romantic thing i've heard about in my life

774
01:14:54,000 --> 01:14:59,440
i always on her anniversary will go hey i'm anxious i'm anxious i'm not even getting anything today

775
01:14:59,440 --> 01:15:08,240
um powerful how the human spirit that resiliency that belief can carry you um and the love of other

776
01:15:08,240 --> 01:15:14,240
people can keep you in a traumatic situation inspired to say i'm going to give this a shot

777
01:15:14,240 --> 01:15:19,120
for one more day and uh yeah he's another one that will always be an inspiration to me

778
01:15:19,920 --> 01:15:26,000
beautiful story i'm so glad i asked now that was incredible yeah thank you that was that i forget

779
01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:31,920
about that sometimes and it's when i think of it it makes me smile absolutely well i think when we

780
01:15:31,920 --> 01:15:37,760
spoke last was when you you'd written the book um so taking the cape off what is great is i think

781
01:15:37,760 --> 01:15:42,640
since then you and i went back and forth with your audiobook um experience because i had to do that

782
01:15:42,640 --> 01:15:46,160
for mine and it was it was like pulling teeth i hated it was just funny because i talk on a

783
01:15:46,160 --> 01:15:51,920
microphone for a living now but when you have to just read this brewing um but there's another

784
01:15:51,920 --> 01:15:59,520
interesting story that starts in ireland talk to me about the documentary yeah this is another uh

785
01:16:00,320 --> 01:16:06,720
no no no such thing as a coincidence so elaine and i used to like like to go on saint patrick's day

786
01:16:06,720 --> 01:16:11,840
we'd always try and find a local pub that had a real band from ireland it's always funny you

787
01:16:11,840 --> 01:16:16,080
you can go in any neighborhood and there'll be five irish pubs and you walk in and and

788
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:20,480
aerosmith is playing her deep purple on saint patrick's day it's not quite what i was looking

789
01:16:20,480 --> 01:16:26,320
for so um found a place called the irish legend that we used to go to and really enjoy irish music

790
01:16:26,320 --> 01:16:35,040
so um the year she was sick in 2016 we went she was undergoing chemo so we went on saint patrick's

791
01:16:35,040 --> 01:16:40,160
day to a very little quiet pub that we knew that there weren't going to be many people in so we

792
01:16:40,160 --> 01:16:44,720
could have a toast with family and friends because unfortunately we knew i don't think i acknowledged

793
01:16:44,720 --> 01:16:50,000
it that day in my head but i knew this would be the last saint patrick's day i would have her

794
01:16:50,560 --> 01:16:54,720
but we couldn't go back there because there were just too many people and chance of infection so

795
01:16:55,520 --> 01:17:02,240
we missed it the following year in 2017 when it was saint patrick's day um a number of friends

796
01:17:02,240 --> 01:17:07,040
from the firehouse couples we used to go to were like well we're going to the legend and i'm like

797
01:17:07,040 --> 01:17:12,480
not going like what do you mean you're not going i go can't i can't go there without her i just can't

798
01:17:12,480 --> 01:17:17,040
do it they're like well just just try it for a little while she would want you to go i go yeah i

799
01:17:17,040 --> 01:17:22,880
know what she wants i go i don't think it's good for me i don't think i should go 30 minutes give

800
01:17:22,880 --> 01:17:29,360
us 30 minutes and then you can okay fine so i go the great band from from ireland is in there

801
01:17:29,360 --> 01:17:35,040
they're playing and i'm not even conscious i'm just like okay is it 28 minutes yet is it 24

802
01:17:35,040 --> 01:17:39,200
minutes yet is it what am i getting out of here and all i could think about was the times that

803
01:17:39,200 --> 01:17:46,560
we had spent there and how now she wasn't and they took it happened to take a break like 20 minutes

804
01:17:46,560 --> 01:17:51,360
in so i go well okay that's 30 minutes i'm going they're like no no no no no 30 minutes of playing

805
01:17:51,360 --> 01:17:56,880
here he didn't play for 30 minutes and the one gentleman was was the lead singer said when he

806
01:17:56,880 --> 01:18:01,840
took a break he mentioned uh yeah he goes i want to introduce the guys in the band so he introduced

807
01:18:01,840 --> 01:18:07,040
the other four guys and uh said yeah i'm considered the outcast not the true irishman and he had a

808
01:18:07,040 --> 01:18:12,960
broke that was thick as can be and i'm thinking they actually talking about so i went up there

809
01:18:13,840 --> 01:18:18,400
don't know what motivated me to go up there i went up there and i introduced myself and i said i

810
01:18:18,400 --> 01:18:22,160
gotta ask you i said you got this great bro what do you mean you're not an irishman he said

811
01:18:22,160 --> 01:18:27,040
well i was born in new york he said and when i was 10 years old my dad was a construction worker and

812
01:18:27,040 --> 01:18:32,640
he was killed in a construction accident so my mom and myself my two younger brothers she was

813
01:18:32,640 --> 01:18:38,400
from ireland um there was no family really here in the states to lean on a lot of family there so

814
01:18:38,400 --> 01:18:44,800
she brought us back to ireland and we were raised there so there's my bro but you know i'm not

815
01:18:44,800 --> 01:18:49,680
naturally born there and these guys remind me of it all the time kind of a big joke and i said well

816
01:18:49,680 --> 01:18:56,960
my i said my both my parents were born in ireland i said do you ever think about your dad what he

817
01:18:56,960 --> 01:19:04,000
what he's seen you do what you what you missed and i said all the time i hope he's proud and

818
01:19:04,000 --> 01:19:09,840
i hope he's watching so i lost my dad i said he was an irish hurler i said when i was 14 and i go

819
01:19:10,400 --> 01:19:15,280
i wonder all the time too did you see me do this did you see me get married you see your grandkids

820
01:19:15,280 --> 01:19:22,240
uh i said i hope so too well the other guys in the band heard me talk about hurling they didn't

821
01:19:22,240 --> 01:19:26,880
really hear the story and said hi your dad was a hurler oh my good where did he putty play for

822
01:19:26,880 --> 01:19:32,240
blah blah blah blah and the lead singer said yeah he goes he like me he lost his dad when he was 14

823
01:19:33,200 --> 01:19:36,880
well by now i've been up there for like 10 minutes you know i'm supposed to be on this quick break

824
01:19:36,880 --> 01:19:42,400
and one of the wives who was sitting at the table got concerned because she saw these guys around me

825
01:19:42,400 --> 01:19:50,000
and was like oh no he must be telling the story about ireland so she starts to get up to come up

826
01:19:50,000 --> 01:19:55,280
and uh i said yeah i said i used to come here with my wife i said she passed away a couple months ago

827
01:19:55,280 --> 01:20:00,080
and uh they were like oh my goodness and i told them a little bit about the story and i said i'm

828
01:20:00,080 --> 01:20:07,280
sure she's listening and you guys are doing great and uh the the wife comes up now she thinks i've

829
01:20:07,280 --> 01:20:13,120
told them about shawn so she comes up hey guys how you doing uh like oh this great guy we've been

830
01:20:13,120 --> 01:20:19,120
we've never been a story but sad about his loss she said yeah you know horrible to have to bury

831
01:20:19,120 --> 01:20:25,680
your child and they're like what and he looked they looked at me and said you buried your child too and

832
01:20:25,680 --> 01:20:30,000
uh i said yeah now she's mortified because she realizes that you know that's not what we were

833
01:20:30,000 --> 01:20:34,160
talking about so we talk about that now you can imagine if you were sitting in the audience with

834
01:20:34,160 --> 01:20:39,920
your wife like who is this goof is he a groupie up there what's i mean there's a 20 minute break

835
01:20:39,920 --> 01:20:46,000
i came here to listen to them saying and um and they wanted to know more and so i did i told some

836
01:20:46,000 --> 01:20:50,720
of them that what we were doing and that we were going to be going to ireland in march i'm sorry in

837
01:20:50,720 --> 01:20:56,400
may uh to actually spread eileen's ashes and a couple of guys in the band said what date are

838
01:20:56,400 --> 01:21:00,720
you coming we're we're we're going to come greet you guys when you come with your family so

839
01:21:01,280 --> 01:21:07,680
that night when we landed in dublin one of them drove 90 minutes one way to meet us in the pub

840
01:21:07,680 --> 01:21:12,880
and have a cup of coffee and turn around and drive back because he knew how difficult this

841
01:21:12,880 --> 01:21:19,040
trip was the other the other gentleman lived in in uh in dublin so now i stayed in touch with those

842
01:21:19,040 --> 01:21:25,280
guys over the years so fast forward to a year ago april i get a phone call from noel who was one of

843
01:21:25,280 --> 01:21:31,040
the the two gentlemen he was the gentleman who drove 90 minutes that night and he said um hey i'm

844
01:21:31,040 --> 01:21:36,560
thinking about doing something and he great songwriters we had written two children's books

845
01:21:36,560 --> 01:21:44,240
the bus driver so what are you gonna do he said um i'll make a documentary wow um why can't you

846
01:21:44,240 --> 01:21:48,800
imagine you not being successful anything you do but that's a lot of a lot goes into that yeah i've

847
01:21:48,800 --> 01:21:53,040
been taking classes and um something i really want to do and i go that's great i go what are

848
01:21:53,040 --> 01:21:58,080
you going to do it on because i'm going to do it on your book what you're doing on my book

849
01:21:58,800 --> 01:22:05,360
i go how are you going to do that because i'm not sure yet he said but i had a dream i go okay what

850
01:22:05,360 --> 01:22:10,960
was the dream he said your son and your wife came to me in the dream and said you're supposed to do

851
01:22:10,960 --> 01:22:18,160
the documentary on his book well now i can't answer him right i'm like i'm sobbing and i'm like are you

852
01:22:18,160 --> 01:22:25,760
sure and he said i've never been more sure about anything this is what i'm supposed to do so okay

853
01:22:25,760 --> 01:22:29,680
i go you know how it is she told me write the book i go if she told you you better get on it you

854
01:22:29,680 --> 01:22:36,160
better get on it and so over the next few months we put together a program where he was going to

855
01:22:36,160 --> 01:22:43,440
come to the states in fall and interview eileen's friends two of shawn's best friends from high

856
01:22:43,440 --> 01:22:49,760
school people who worked with me to find out what was did they notice the impact of shawn's journey

857
01:22:49,760 --> 01:22:55,280
and eileen's journey on me as a leader and things like that but he said when you come to ireland in

858
01:22:55,280 --> 01:23:01,040
may i want to i want we're going to end up that we do interviews so where we're going to do the

859
01:23:01,040 --> 01:23:07,440
interviews at he said well your dad's house is still remaining and now this is where i'm going

860
01:23:07,440 --> 01:23:13,920
to chronologically jump for a second so this is actually in 2019 in 17 when i had gone over there

861
01:23:13,920 --> 01:23:19,200
to bury your ashes the last day i was there it was with all my cousins and all of them are women

862
01:23:19,200 --> 01:23:22,880
and at the end of this big dinner they're like we have a surprise for you and the gentleman walked

863
01:23:22,880 --> 01:23:28,320
in i go who's that they go it's your cousin so no i don't have any male cousins they go yeah you do

864
01:23:28,320 --> 01:23:33,840
that's on your dad's side never knew this gentleman existed didn't know anything about him and he came

865
01:23:33,840 --> 01:23:38,640
up and gave me a big hug and he said i live on your dad's farm and your dad's house is still

866
01:23:38,640 --> 01:23:43,360
standing you need to come see it and i said i can't i'm gonna leave it tomorrow morning if i ever come

867
01:23:43,360 --> 01:23:49,680
back i will so now we jump to 19 and noel tells me yeah i talked to your cousin we're gonna rig up

868
01:23:49,680 --> 01:23:53,520
so we have electricity and everything in there and we're gonna do your interview sitting in your

869
01:23:53,520 --> 01:24:03,200
dad's living room i'm like what so go to ireland go to his house we pull up in front of it and it's

870
01:24:03,200 --> 01:24:10,800
this old beat up but it's cement cinder block building that's still standing and and i almost

871
01:24:10,800 --> 01:24:16,240
couldn't get out of the car and i got out he said come on i want to take you around the back before

872
01:24:16,240 --> 01:24:22,080
you go in and the cousin took me around the back and there's a big three by three concrete pad

873
01:24:22,720 --> 01:24:28,560
almost like a pool that was set up behind the house and i said okay what's this and he said this is

874
01:24:28,560 --> 01:24:34,560
for to catch the rain water and my grandmother your grandmother would make they would make

875
01:24:34,560 --> 01:24:40,800
cooking and they would wash clothes out of here and i said oh he said put your hands on it so i

876
01:24:40,800 --> 01:24:46,640
did and he said that's the last thing your dad built before he came to ireland i mean before he

877
01:24:46,640 --> 01:24:54,160
came to the states he said he built that with his hands no forms he just took the concrete and molded

878
01:24:54,160 --> 01:24:59,200
all of that so he said keep your hands on there because he goes you're touching his hands and it

879
01:24:59,200 --> 01:25:05,840
was like i had this chill go through me and i'm like okay now you expect me to go in the house

880
01:25:05,840 --> 01:25:12,320
and have an interview are you kidding me they open the door and the fireplace is on and there's a

881
01:25:12,320 --> 01:25:18,240
kiddle hanging in there and there's a chair sitting there with a stool and i'm like and i walked in and

882
01:25:18,240 --> 01:25:25,520
i tears just streamed down my face i'm like oh my god he's here like this is where he grew up this

883
01:25:25,520 --> 01:25:31,680
is where it all started and so noel got me composed and we did did the interview and

884
01:25:31,680 --> 01:25:40,400
it was amazing i walked out of there and then my dad had my grandfather my dad's dad had taken his

885
01:25:40,400 --> 01:25:47,120
life when my dad was 18 he hung himself in the barn and my dad found him and had to cut him down

886
01:25:47,840 --> 01:25:52,160
and i always wondered when i was growing up my dad was very distant never really told me he loved

887
01:25:52,160 --> 01:25:56,960
me i never saw him put his arm around my mom or hold her hand but i knew he loved me and i knew

888
01:25:56,960 --> 01:26:04,640
he loved her and then i realized when i was told this story when i was 35 my mom told me i'm like

889
01:26:04,640 --> 01:26:11,200
no wonder so he got no counseling it was the worst sin you could do in ireland was to take your life

890
01:26:11,200 --> 01:26:15,920
my grandfather was buried in a grave with no headstone his name was removed from the church

891
01:26:15,920 --> 01:26:22,880
book and my dad had to go through that and so he was never going to get close to anybody ever again

892
01:26:22,880 --> 01:26:29,600
even the people that he truly loved and i said to my cousin where's the barn and he said oh come on

893
01:26:29,600 --> 01:26:36,400
with me we went around the back and just beautiful very nice barn and i go no is there another barn

894
01:26:36,400 --> 01:26:41,840
here and he said well yeah the old barn but we don't use it anymore and i go can i go into that

895
01:26:41,840 --> 01:26:49,680
barn he said well sure and we walked around the back and there was this old dilapidated barn where

896
01:26:49,680 --> 01:26:55,840
the roof was only about probably 10 foot high and i pushed the door open and i turned to my right

897
01:26:56,480 --> 01:27:04,480
and you saw all the um um what am i trying to think of um all the timbers everything that made

898
01:27:04,480 --> 01:27:09,440
up the roof structure all of them were only maybe about seven feet off the off the ground

899
01:27:10,480 --> 01:27:16,480
and when i looked to my right it was if i was my dad again and i had a quick mental picture of

900
01:27:16,480 --> 01:27:21,600
somebody hanging there the first fatal call i ever went on was a mom who took her life then i cut her

901
01:27:21,600 --> 01:27:29,760
down and all of a sudden it was like he was with me and it was his dad and like almost like somebody

902
01:27:29,760 --> 01:27:34,800
had loaded a flash drive in my brain and everything that he had been through every emotion and things

903
01:27:34,800 --> 01:27:42,640
he had fought all loaded and i went oh my god i go now i get it dad i get it and i stopped and i froze

904
01:27:42,640 --> 01:27:47,920
and my cousin was like well did you want to go in here for some reason and i said don't you know

905
01:27:48,640 --> 01:27:54,880
he said don't i know what i said well our grandfather i said he took his life right my dad's

906
01:27:54,880 --> 01:28:00,640
dad took his life he goes yeah i go did you know how he did it he went no we were never told and i

907
01:28:00,640 --> 01:28:09,360
went oh my god i go he did it in here and he was like what he had never heard the story and i backed

908
01:28:09,360 --> 01:28:14,080
out of there and i walked out and i remember i was kind of numb and i walked to the car and i got in

909
01:28:14,080 --> 01:28:21,520
it with noel and we drove to the cemetery and did some other shots later and i told noel i go if this

910
01:28:21,520 --> 01:28:28,080
documentary never gets made this is the reason i was supposed to come back here i go because the

911
01:28:28,080 --> 01:28:35,760
circle is now complete i felt my dad in that house i felt his pain in that barn and i realized this

912
01:28:35,760 --> 01:28:42,640
mission i've been on about telling people that mental illness is not a stigma or has a stigma it

913
01:28:42,640 --> 01:28:48,640
is not a character weakness or deficiency and you can't look at it that way my poor grandfather was

914
01:28:48,640 --> 01:28:55,760
ill enough that he took his life and what it did to my dad and now shawn sees my dad in heaven

915
01:28:55,760 --> 01:29:02,320
and then shawn comes to aileen it's the full circle i'm finally whole and i owe you for doing this well

916
01:29:02,320 --> 01:29:07,600
that didn't stop him he came to the states and did all these interviews and put together an amazing

917
01:29:07,600 --> 01:29:13,840
documentary that he finished this past november and now it's out at some film festivals to be

918
01:29:13,840 --> 01:29:20,080
viewed and see and it doesn't really matter about any of that if one person gets something out of it

919
01:29:20,080 --> 01:29:28,480
it'll be amazing and his name is noel joice and if nothing else he completed a circle for me

920
01:29:28,480 --> 01:29:34,080
that i will owe him for the rest of my life because i got my dad back for a little while and it was

921
01:29:34,480 --> 01:29:40,880
it was powerful amazing actually incredible absolutely incredible yeah it's interesting

922
01:29:40,880 --> 01:29:45,040
because i'm writing my second book at the moment and it's about multi-generational trauma and it's

923
01:29:45,040 --> 01:29:51,520
going to start present day and it's going to go back in time and this is just it you know when you

924
01:29:51,520 --> 01:29:56,160
look at the struggles that your father had you know the struggles that then you know that you had

925
01:29:56,160 --> 01:30:01,680
and then sean had i mean if you reverse engineer you know it's not absolute but there's elements

926
01:30:01,680 --> 01:30:08,800
you know and these are dominoes and so by understanding this this part you can start to maybe

927
01:30:09,440 --> 01:30:15,200
push against that domino so it doesn't go to your kids and their kids etc etc so it's so powerful

928
01:30:15,200 --> 01:30:18,720
hearing not only you know the kind of grief journey in the mental health side but even

929
01:30:19,680 --> 01:30:25,760
getting to really understand you know two three generations back yourself and and and literally

930
01:30:25,760 --> 01:30:30,560
live it for a second be there and get that flash and just have that immediate understanding of the

931
01:30:30,560 --> 01:30:37,600
pain that two generations ago really endure i always people will sometimes ask me well you've

932
01:30:37,600 --> 01:30:42,000
got a lot of strong faith so that means that you believe you got a lot of relatives and people love

933
01:30:42,000 --> 01:30:47,520
you on the other side i'm like yeah they go why do you think it was your dad that sean saw why him

934
01:30:47,520 --> 01:30:53,840
in particular once i went to ireland i knew because there was the person who sat there when he almost

935
01:30:53,840 --> 01:31:00,480
lost his life the first time who sat there went i get it john i get the pain i saw the pain so you

936
01:31:00,480 --> 01:31:05,280
need to go back and that's why the next time he didn't have to stay he got to go back there and

937
01:31:05,280 --> 01:31:10,000
no doubt in my mind exactly what you said and that was nulls it's funny i didn't even tell you that

938
01:31:10,000 --> 01:31:16,640
but you got it that was what he figured out about the message was i need to connect this journey

939
01:31:16,640 --> 01:31:22,160
across the ocean of pain and this mental health and how it's progressed and then turn it around

940
01:31:22,160 --> 01:31:28,320
and bring it back home and unite you and your dad this irishman that comes to the states who an

941
01:31:28,320 --> 01:31:33,680
irish american comes back and makes the journey and it really is about that multi-generational

942
01:31:33,680 --> 01:31:39,200
and realize this is a disease that we should have had on our radar just as if i mean i because my

943
01:31:39,200 --> 01:31:45,040
dad died of stomach cancer i've had more colonoscopies than probably anybody in the world and most of the

944
01:31:45,040 --> 01:31:50,320
nurses in illinois know what my butt looks like it hasn't gotten any better with age and but we're

945
01:31:50,320 --> 01:31:56,880
aware of it because we know that there's a chance if only we had known it wouldn't have saved

946
01:31:56,880 --> 01:32:02,720
shawn's life but it would have probably made it more on my radar when he first got sick instead of

947
01:32:02,720 --> 01:32:08,720
me going no that that's just a stage he'll grow out of yeah i mean this is it it's just tools in

948
01:32:08,720 --> 01:32:13,120
the toolbox it's not saying like you said it was an absolute but it's another layer of understanding

949
01:32:13,120 --> 01:32:16,880
you know i think it's it's the same with uh i'll have a lot of conversations with people these days

950
01:32:16,880 --> 01:32:22,960
about anything from addiction to you know being part of a gang whatever it is and we look at it

951
01:32:22,960 --> 01:32:29,200
as which is kind of such an ironic perspective to have a lot of these faiths come from kindness and

952
01:32:29,200 --> 01:32:34,240
compassion and people spend you know whatever day of the week it is and then they come out and then

953
01:32:34,960 --> 01:32:43,200
extremely judgmental and you know unempathetic so the more we understand the layers of these human

954
01:32:43,200 --> 01:32:47,920
elements i would like to think that the more compassion we as a community are going to start

955
01:32:47,920 --> 01:32:53,040
showing people who are struggling whether that's you know again through some sort of crime because

956
01:32:53,040 --> 01:32:57,120
that's all they knew it's all they grew up around or whether it's mental health or addiction or

957
01:32:57,120 --> 01:33:02,800
obesity or whatever it is that you know there's there's a story and i talk about this a lot now

958
01:33:03,520 --> 01:33:08,720
we were all babies once we were all a blank canvas and then life happened and obviously as we said

959
01:33:08,720 --> 01:33:14,640
epigenetics sometimes we carried previous lives as we were first born so the more we understand the

960
01:33:14,640 --> 01:33:20,720
more tools we have to to look at the whole human being the higher the chance we can help people

961
01:33:20,720 --> 01:33:28,000
heal and and thrive in their life and i think too when you when you try to understand where

962
01:33:28,000 --> 01:33:32,560
somebody else has come from you don't do the judgment it almost frees you up a little bit to

963
01:33:32,560 --> 01:33:39,360
do it for yourself because you get it or before when you're if you're too quick to judge that's

964
01:33:39,360 --> 01:33:42,640
when that shame part comes in about yourself going well i should have known better i should

965
01:33:42,640 --> 01:33:46,080
have handled this better i'm the one that should have fixed this why did i do that or that and

966
01:33:46,720 --> 01:33:51,920
now you realize i always and i just one of the things i have told to my niece you're going to

967
01:33:51,920 --> 01:33:57,680
learn to write yourself permission slips and it's okay to write the permission slip that i can't go

968
01:33:57,680 --> 01:34:02,480
to that event or i need to leave early or today's just going to be a bad day because you realize

969
01:34:02,480 --> 01:34:07,280
other people who are in similar situations you certainly would be the first one to hand them that

970
01:34:07,280 --> 01:34:11,120
pad and go i'll just start writing them for you because you need to take care of yourself and you

971
01:34:11,120 --> 01:34:15,840
need to be okay with who you are and love yourself and then it's a whole lot easier to love other

972
01:34:15,840 --> 01:34:20,960
people once you figure it out that you're probably not such a bad soul yeah yeah which circles around

973
01:34:20,960 --> 01:34:26,640
again to first responders advocating for their own wellness you know we do so much for other people

974
01:34:26,640 --> 01:34:32,480
write yourself a permission smith slip that will benefit you and your family absolutely right

975
01:34:32,800 --> 01:34:37,920
beautiful all right well i want to round this off firstly the documentary is there a title and where

976
01:34:37,920 --> 01:34:42,880
can people start looking for it you know hoping that it's going to come to to their area or their

977
01:34:42,880 --> 01:34:48,160
stream well it's called it's called taking the cape off i said so it was easy enough there wasn't a

978
01:34:48,160 --> 01:34:54,160
whole lot of extra creativity that went into it um and right now the the way i understand it is

979
01:34:54,160 --> 01:35:00,480
when it's being viewed by festivals it's not out for public viewing um i know noel has looked at

980
01:35:00,480 --> 01:35:06,000
some other um youtube is probably where it'll go when it when it does come out um and we will

981
01:35:06,000 --> 01:35:10,400
definitely let people know when that's going to occur that could happen in the next month or two

982
01:35:10,400 --> 01:35:15,920
it depends on when it runs this the cycles and i'm not up to speed on i said that's your thing

983
01:35:15,920 --> 01:35:22,160
this is your thing you get credit for i just was the mouth and you did all the work um and but i

984
01:35:22,160 --> 01:35:27,520
but i expect that probably by the middle of next year it'll be available on youtube for people to

985
01:35:27,520 --> 01:35:33,280
see it and i'll certainly let you know when that when that occurs um it's long i think that's

986
01:35:33,280 --> 01:35:38,880
probably one of the challenges of it it's 90 minutes um and so people's attention span is

987
01:35:38,880 --> 01:35:44,720
something that we we worried about in but you just couldn't get it in in any shorter of amount of

988
01:35:44,720 --> 01:35:51,200
time to build both eileen and shawn's legacy and uh people who've seen it the ones who are allowed

989
01:35:51,200 --> 01:35:56,480
to see it are the people who were interviewed on a secure link and many of them watched it with

990
01:35:56,480 --> 01:36:02,240
their significant others who did not know what their involvement was with their husband or wife

991
01:36:02,240 --> 01:36:10,560
and then what my story was in terms of saying it and doing it and they all were like boy that was

992
01:36:10,560 --> 01:36:15,600
powerful so i'm i'm hoping that that's what people will uh will be impacted at least one person if

993
01:36:15,600 --> 01:36:20,000
they walk away going i got a better understanding and i'm going to do a little bit about that to

994
01:36:20,000 --> 01:36:24,800
help myself or somebody else we're good to go well firstly i don't think 90 minutes is that long

995
01:36:25,440 --> 01:36:29,440
the first interview we did was two and a half hours so there we go people loved it so that

996
01:36:30,160 --> 01:36:36,080
so just to appease that fear secondly the book you have obviously the the you know the paper

997
01:36:36,080 --> 01:36:41,520
version the digital version and now the audio book as well where can people find that so you

998
01:36:41,520 --> 01:36:46,800
can find it on amazon uh you can find it on barnes and noble amazon is probably the easiest play

999
01:36:46,800 --> 01:36:52,560
um there's also a direct link on on my web page patrickjkenney.com that you can go to and it'll

1000
01:36:52,560 --> 01:36:58,880
take you to it also um people have just been amazing and i the audible book if i go to speak

1001
01:36:58,880 --> 01:37:02,320
somewhere and somebody says they're going to order that i always ask them to send me an email

1002
01:37:02,320 --> 01:37:07,040
afterwards because i literally as you know you have to listen to like four minutes of it before

1003
01:37:07,040 --> 01:37:11,840
it goes audible for them to put on i've never listened to more than the first four minutes

1004
01:37:11,840 --> 01:37:18,240
because i listened to it and went oh my god this is terrible um so i always wait to get their

1005
01:37:18,240 --> 01:37:23,360
feedback and they've been very kind in what they've sent back so i'm like as long as you

1006
01:37:23,360 --> 01:37:30,080
got something coherent out of it i'm good absolutely well you had a lot of great feedback from the

1007
01:37:30,080 --> 01:37:35,040
audio book as well i remember so obviously you did a good job yeah thank you yeah it's been

1008
01:37:35,040 --> 01:37:40,000
that's been more rewarding than i thought it would be well pat i want to thank you a third

1009
01:37:40,000 --> 01:37:46,080
conversation a great conversation again i think if people listen to the original you know chat that

1010
01:37:46,080 --> 01:37:50,640
we had and heard the you know the the story of eileen and sean and all the other things that

1011
01:37:50,640 --> 01:37:55,680
we discussed adding on this i mean obviously there's a part two as well but this conversation

1012
01:37:55,680 --> 01:38:01,440
has been so powerful knowing your story already so i want to thank you again for coming on the

1013
01:38:01,440 --> 01:38:06,400
behind the shield podcast and being so generous with your time today always an honor to talk to

1014
01:38:06,400 --> 01:38:17,280
my friend always love what you do and have done and continue to do