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This episode is sponsored by a company I've used for well over a decade and that is 511.

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I wore their uniforms back in Anaheim, California and have used their products ever since.

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From their incredibly strong yet light footwear to their cut uniforms for both male and female

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responders, I found them hands down the best workwear in all the departments that I've worked for.

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Outside of the fire service, I use their luggage for everything and I travel a lot and they are

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also now sponsoring the 7X team as we embark around the world on the Human Performance Project.

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We have Murph coming up in May and again I bought their plate carrier. I ended up buying real

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ballistic plates rather than the fake weight plates and that has been my ride or die through

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Murph the last few years as well. But one area I want to talk about that I haven't in previous

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sponsorship spots is their brick and mortar element. They were predominantly an online

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company up till more recently but now they are approaching 100 stores all over the US.

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My local store is here in Gainesville Florida and I've been multiple times and the discounts you see

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online are applied also in the stores. So as I mentioned 511 is offering you 15% off every

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purchase that you make but I do want to say more often than not they have an even deeper discount

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especially around holiday times. But if you use the code SHIELD15 you will get 15% off your order

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or in the stores every time you make a purchase. And if you want to hear more about 511, who they

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stand for and who works with them, listen to episode 580 of Behind the Shield podcast with

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511 regional director Will Ayers. I'm extremely excited to announce a brand new sponsor for the

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Behind the Shield podcast that is Transcend. Now for many of you listening you are probably

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working the same brutal shifts that I did for 14 years. Suffering from sleep deprivation,

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body composition challenges, mental health challenges, libido, hair loss etc. Now when

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it comes to the world of hormone replacement and peptide therapy what I have seen is a shift from

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doctors telling us that we were within normal limits which was definitely incorrect all the

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way to the other way now where men's clinics are popping up left right and center. So I myself wanted

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to find a reputable company that would do an analysis of my physiology and then offer

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supplementations without ramming for example hormone replacement therapy down my throat.

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Now I came across Transcend because they have an altruistic arm and they were a big reason why the

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7x project I was a part of was able to proceed because of their generous donations. They also

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have the Transcend foundations where they are actually putting military and first responders

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through some of their therapies at no cost to the individual. So my own personal journey so far

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filled in the online form, went to Quest, got blood drawn and a few days later I'm talking to

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one of their wellness professionals as they guide me through my results and the supplementation that

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they suggest. In my case specifically because I transitioned out the fire service five years ago

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and been very diligent with my health my testosterone was actually in a good place. So I went down the

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peptide route and some other supplements to try and maximize my physiology knowing full well the

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damage that 14 years of shift work has done. Now I also want to underline because I think this is

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very important that each of the therapies they offer they will talk about the pros and cons.

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So for example a lot of first responders and shift work our testosterone will be low but sometimes

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nutrition, exercise and sleep can offset that on its own. So this company is not going to try and

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push you down a path especially if it's one that you can't come back from. So whether it's libido,

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brain fog, inflammation, gut health, performance, sleep, this is definitely one of the most powerful

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tools in the toolbox. So to learn more go to transcendcompany.com or listen to episode 808

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of the Behind the Shield podcast with founder Ernie Colling. Welcome to the Behind the Shield

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podcast as always my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome back

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onto the show marine actor, author and renowned military technical advisor Captain Dale Dye.

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Now in this second conversation we discuss a host of topics from his experiences visiting Normandy

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beaches, his project No Better Place to Die, reflecting back on the band of brothers, mental

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health and his powerful perspective of his latest project Masters of the Air. Now before we get to

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this amazing conversation as I say every week please just take a moment go to whichever app

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you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating. Every single

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five star rating truly does elevate this podcast therefore making it easier for others to find

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and this is a free library of almost 900 episodes now so all I ask in return is that you help share

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these incredible men and women stories so I can get them to every single person on planet earth

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who needs to hear them. So with that being said I welcome back Captain Dale Dye. Enjoy.

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Well Captain Dye I want to first say thank you so much for coming on the show, the last time we

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talked I think was six years ago over six years ago you were one of I think you were episode

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I forget what it was 34 I think so that's literally within the first year of the podcast so firstly I

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just want to welcome you back today. So where are we finding you on planet earth? Well I'm in

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South Central Texas, I finally had to give up Hollywood Richard I mean I just the rat race and

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you know the plastic banana lifestyle out there years ago when I started all of this I kind of

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had to be in LA but I no longer do that I'm at a position where they'll come get me wherever I am

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so we moved to Texas to a little town just south of Austin the state capital and a house

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that was built in 1950 in a beautiful old place and got some land on it and so I'm

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enjoying myself out of the Hollywood rat race. Absolutely it seemed like

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we'll get to this the the COVID era kind of reframed the way some people saw the cities that

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they lived in and also though I think it really empowered a lot of people in the virtual world

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that you didn't have to be chained to your workplace that you could be a little bit more dynamic.

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Yeah if there's a bright side to that whole COVID nonsense that's it I mean

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people just realized that they could work from anywhere assuming the technology works and helps

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out and I guess I'm part of that. So I would love to kind of unpack that listening and obviously

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this is fresh from my mind because I literally just listened to it this morning but you were

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optimistic about community coming together about the strengthening of the first responder

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professions and you know the way that we view law enforcement and we talk about the

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first responder professions and you know the way that we view law enforcement and we talked six

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years ago so obviously as the last few years unfolded I witnessed you know a fragmentation

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of our community and a demonization of our law enforcement so what has been your observation

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through that lens of the last few years? Well it's been precisely that and it's disappointing

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it's tremendously disappointing. You know I think like a fish that's been left out too long it tends

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to rot from the head and I think in many of our major urban police departments that's been the

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case it's even been the case in our military in a lot of ways. We've somehow and I'm kind of

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trying to explore this so I'm not sure that I'm going to get a definitive answer here but in some

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ways it seems to me that we have done something in our society that has caused us to lose confidence

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in the one thing that we were always so confident in the one place we could turn for help the one

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place we could turn for kindred spirits if you will and that was our major law enforcement folks

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up to and including the FBI and the department of the attorney general and our military and I

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can't really pin down why that happens but it's clear to me that it has. I mean Lord you look at

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our major urban police departments they can't keep cops on the street and who can blame the cops?

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I mean they're literally on the chopping block every time they roll out of the station house

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so I don't know where that comes from but I do know that it's got to be correct.

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Now with this kind of lens that you have obviously from the military to the film

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professions I mean you have pretty diverse lens on a lot of things now. What do we need to do next?

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I mean the problem I think that we see a lot in news stations and on social media is blamestorming

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everyone's pointing their finger at someone else. What can we as a nation do to help

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get our feet back under us from this last pandemic? Whatever people's experience was

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and rebuild those communities and get behind the men and women that leave their families to go

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protect either their communities or their country. Well look I perceive there is a

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pendulum effect to this thing. We've gone so far out to the extreme on the liberal side that really

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eroded support for superstructures like the American law enforcement establishment,

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the military and so on and so forth. We've gone so far out that I'm gradually seeing it swing back

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and people understand and this is where the answer to your question comes in. People are now beginning

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to understand that we're in a circular firing squad here. I mean we're shooting ourselves in

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the foot continuously. We're a nation of laws and part of that is a responsibility to respect those

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laws and in doing so you've got to respect the people who enforce those laws. So the direct

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answer to your question is I think we have to have patience. It pisses us off. I know that. I get it

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and we're losing massive amounts of really fine police officers at all levels and that's going to

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be a shame because we're going to have to rebuild and the answer to your question is we've got to

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A, recognize that that's a problem and B, embark on whatever is necessary to rebuild those forces,

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law enforcement, the military and that sort of thing and rebuild those communities.

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And that's sort of thing and rebuild them in the image that America expects, not in some liberal

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dream of you know kumbaya and dance around the maple. That's just not the way it works

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and I think Americans, you and me and that great unwashed area out there that we call

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the American public are going to have to A, recognize the problem and B, embark on rebuilding

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and that involves money as everything does. But more importantly what it involves is when we ask

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a young man or woman to become a police officer or engage you know be a law enforcement officer or

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Leo or when we ask them to join the military they need to feel confident that this is a noble

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profession and they're not sticking their head in the lion's mouth just to get it chopped off.

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So we've got to restore that confidence and then communicate that confidence to the young men and

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women who we expect to do the job. Absolutely. Well I mean that it's funny when we talk about

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masculinity I always go back to Banda Brothers which you were deeply involved with. The facade

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of masculinity of some of our you know superheroes I grew up with you know the Schwarzeneggers and the

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Rockies and all those. When you look at Banda Brothers you know not only do you see the

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dramatization of their heroism but you also see the vulnerability. You have these men that decades

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and decades and decades later are still moved to tears by what they saw, who they lost, what they

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had to do. And so I had the absolute honor recently of interviewing three World War II veterans. One

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was Frank Wright who was on Iwo Jima. That was a full podcast like this and then I did a fireside

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chat, a live interview on stage with two other Marines. Don Graves was a Marine and then John

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Boswell was a Navy corpsman. But ironically enough Frank had written a book on his mental health

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which was a really interesting thing. When I spoke to Don and John presenting this description that

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we give them, the greatest generation, they just rolled their sleeves up, you could see the pain in

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these men's face to this day and how it was buried down. So I didn't have this perspective last time

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we spoke but now you know here we are we're losing our World War II veterans. We've kind of projected

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on them that they were fine, they just went back to work and now I meet some of these men in person

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you realize that there was a lot of pain. It was the same experience that other soldiers have

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coming home. What is your view on that generation and you know the post-traumatic stress as we

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talked about before, moral injury and their ability to heal from that even though we're really having

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this conversation way too late? Well look I agree with you. It's a misinterpretation and I was born

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during the war and that's how old I am and I know hundreds of these young from my family and from

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other families and so on and so forth and it's wrong for us to assume or to depict that that

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experience at war, regardless of the state of the national psyche, was not painful and psychologically

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damaging. It was and practically across the board in some fashion it was psychologically damaging.

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The key is, the difference is, that those young men as they aged handled it better.

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You know bravery is not the absence of fear, it's the ability to handle that fear and to continue

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what you're doing and that's what they had. They realized that now a lot of them were relatively

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uneducated and so they couldn't have told you that definition but they realized it inherently

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that part of masculinity, part of your responsibility to a nation is to handle that fear

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and it doesn't mean you don't have it, it means you learn to handle it and get on with things

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and we need to re-examine that lesson I think. Well it's interesting as well because you hear a

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lot of them did dive into alcohol for a while and Don and John both talked about that. There was a

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period where they really went the wrong way arguably but then they were able to navigate.

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Obviously some people don't and it's been an eye-opening where Brandad, a lot of these

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guests that come on the show, actually was an alcoholic, was abusive. So I think that

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post-traumatic growth would have been so invaluable to them as well as it is today rather than

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they kind of shove it down and just get on with life because for some of us we're able to process

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it and I absolutely agree that processed trauma becomes a strength, it truly becomes a superpower

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but if it's unaddressed it becomes cancerous. Yeah it does, you're correct. Self-medicating,

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whether it's with alcohol or today is more likely to be with drugs, is not an uncommon thing,

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especially on people who have been through trauma. The key is not to try to do it alone

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and Lord knows how many people I've talked to and my own experience, you cannot do this alone

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and you must not try to do it alone. That's a dark path and you'll just continue on it

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till you kill yourself. It has to do with, I think we may have touched on this the last time we talked

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but it has to do with your ability I think to say that, to recognize that you're on the wrong path

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and to go to somebody and you know don't let that traumatic experience sit inside your guts

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and eat at you to the point that you seem, self-medication seems to be the only outlet.

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We had that experience in World War II, we had that experience in Korea, we had that experience

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in Vietnam and we certainly had it after the Middle East. The difference is we now recognize

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it for what it is whereas back then, well he's a little shell-shocky and there's a whole lot more

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to it than that and this business of self-medicating, this business of trying to pull yourself up by your

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bootstraps, you got to have some help and look, you know, you're not going to be able to do it

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without self-medication. So what I'm discovering today and I think it probably goes across the board

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is that so many veterans and police officers who faced trauma in a gunfight or in a shooting or in

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a high-speed chase automobile accident, there is a tendency to swallow that. There's a tendency to

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say, I'm in a risky profession, I should be able to handle this sort of thing, I shouldn't talk about

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it, that's a weakness. Well that's silly, you've got to talk about it. Now you don't need to lie

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down on a fainting couch and clutch your pearls and talk to some professional but you need to

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talk to somebody who gets it and who gets it. Well other soldiers get it, other police officers get

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it and those support groups, although that's formalizing them, it's really just an individual

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thing. Let me talk to you about what I went through. Maybe you went through it or maybe I can,

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in just talking about it, maybe I can broom some of the horror and I find that that works

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and it takes you away from the self-medication thing which is disaster. Absolutely. Another

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interesting element and this goes all the way through to modern day warriors is the homecoming

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and again I think we romanticized about World War II, yes some of our military did come back

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to ticker tape parades but some of them went back to smaller towns where they just went home.

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But the worst stories that I've heard and Major James Capers has been on the show, that's one,

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I mean an incredible man and his homecoming story is horrendous, lying there wounded on a tarmac

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as when he gets back on home soil and gets urinated on. And then Rich Rice is another one,

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he was a Delta guy at the time and came back and similar thing, getting spat on. What was your

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homecoming like from Vietnam in contrast to maybe what you'd heard some of these military

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members coming back from World War II? Well look, I'd heard those stories and especially

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Vietnam which was my major homecoming thing, the nation had turned against the war and there was

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great anti-war sentiment running throughout the nation and I knew it was coming. I could see it

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right outside the gates and I said you know what, if I get out there and get angry I'll kill somebody

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or kill myself or something so I'm not going to do it. And for 10 years, much to my detriment,

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for 10 years I didn't. I absolutely would not, I wouldn't talk to civilians regardless of who they

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were. I just wasn't interested in what I knew or presumed I knew they were going to say. So I avoided

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it and that led to self-medication and that led to some pretty horrible experiences and eventually

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I understood that it's not their fault. They can't be expected to understand what I went through.

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Hell, what I went through and what most people at war or police officers who's been in serious

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situations on the streets, what they've been through, you can't expect the average Joe

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citizen to understand that and you shouldn't expect it. That doesn't mean you shouldn't expect them

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to respect it, you should. But in order to build that respect you've got to explain it to them.

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You've got to say listen, this is what happened, this is how it felt and that bites me, it hurts me.

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You do that and you'd be surprised at the support that emerges. Absolutely. I had no idea, it was

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the typical reaction that you get. Well this happens with my profession, the fire service,

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you know people are so disconnected from what we actually do, you know to the point where they ask

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in 2024 why is there a fire engine on my medical call? Well because it's full of paramedics, that's

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why you know an ambulance is coming as well. So where was I going to go with that? Oh my god,

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I just lost my train of thought. Oh there we go. So since we spoke we had the withdrawal from

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Afghanistan that was very jarring, kind of parallel Vietnam. What was your perspective of that and

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what would you say to the men and women that served in that conflict now as we're sitting here on the

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other end of it? Well I've said a lot to them, not so much publicly because it's not a public thing,

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it's a private thing. But you're right when you say that the parallels between our withdrawal in

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Vietnam, our withdrawal in the Middle East and Afghanistan were very similar. It leaves you

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frustrated, it's coitus interruptus, you know I mean nothing, there's no end in sight, you don't

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know what the hell did all this mean and that's deadly. If you can't find a meaning to your

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sacrifice, a purpose to your sacrifice, if that's jerked out from underneath you as it was by

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the Nixon administration in Vietnam and as it did in the Biden administration in Afghanistan,

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that makes it tough, that makes the road really rough, really rugged. And the key is, if there is

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one, it's an individual thing. But the key is to talk about it, the key is to find somebody,

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one of your mates that was with you in this sort of thing, you know just that commiseration,

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just that validation that comes from the other guy, the guy that you know so well saying yeah I feel

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the same way, isn't that a bitch, now what? Just that validation that what you're feeling

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is okay, what you're feeling is perfectly human, perfectly logical and he feels that way too.

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Absolutely, yeah when I ask you know stories from deployments and again not the you know

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did you kill the usual stuff that we actually touched on last time, but you know the things

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that you witnessed that justify what you were doing regardless of politics and then the kindness

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and compassion on the battlefield too which you never hear. And when you hear those over and over

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and over again, they did so much when they were there and I think it's just reminding themselves

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because there's nothing worse than being betrayed by the very organization that you swore an oath

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to join. Sure and that brings you to kind of why I got involved in motion picture storytelling

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and television storytelling to begin with. It occurred to me that that's the kind of experience

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that people have either in law enforcement or in the military that never gets any light.

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Nobody ever understands that and that's you know what look we're a media saturated society,

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you're part of that and the deal is that they're going to you know if it bleeds it leads and they're

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going with the headlines and that sort of thing and it's to the detriment and to the totally

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ignoring of those good things that happen during the deployment. I want to shine some light on those

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good things. It's a difficult task because some of that is not very exciting and doesn't make

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great movies or great reading or great listening but it needs to be done because it validates the

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experience and I think that's something that's we desperately need. Absolutely. Well again Band of

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Brothers, I mean when I ask you know favorite TV show or film on this this is Band of Brothers over

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and over and over and over again, I actually got Shane Taylor on the show probably about a year

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ago now who played Doc Rowe. So before we move into you know the more recent film that you're

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talking about, before we move into you know the more recent projects, what were some of the memories

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of working with Shane because it was so interesting hearing him talking about you. It'd be kind of cool

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to hear the other way. Okay well look he was a bit confused going into this. Shane had no military

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background, no military experience and I was literally shoehorning him into the business of

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you know a medic and I had to make him soldier first and then medic second and he was really open

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to it but he had a seminal moment. He had one of those epiphanies when I talked to him and I said

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look Doc what you've got to do is assume that you're a doctor who's just hanging out his

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shingle in some remote village in England and you're the only game in town. People are going to come

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to you of everything from a bee sting to you know a brain surgery. You got to be that guy and in

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order to be that guy you got to really get to know better than anybody else. You've got to get to know

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your soldiers. What are their foibles? What are their weaknesses? What are the things they are

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subject to? Is there somebody here with asthma and something that you've got to watch? And when I did

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that you could see his eyes light up. He got the analogy. He said oh I'm the neighborhood doc and

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I said that's right and you're the first line of defense and the additional burden that you have

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and this really got to it. This additional burden you have is you're all they've got to talk to.

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You're all they've got. They're not going to talk to the guy in the foxhole next to them.

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They're not going to tell him that they've got a headache or that they feel lousy but they will

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tell you and that's a very special burden. And so once we got to the point with Shane where he

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understood that that was his take on being a company medic his eyes light up. I mean everything

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else then made sense and he really he got on the horse. I mean he rode it and he's been a great

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friend ever since we had him in training and I've seen him at reunion events and all that sort of

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thing and he's just a good man. He's a terrific man. Very talented but he sees those he's a

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dramatist. He understands those things and he always did. I could always look at him when I was

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conducting classes during training for Band of Brothers and I could if Doc was getting it,

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if Shane was getting it then everybody else was. He was kind of my thermometer.

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Yeah it was amazing hearing him talk. I mean he mentioned about the medical bag becoming

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the nucleus of his whole world to the point where even when you weren't shooting people were coming

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to him with boo-boos and he was having to dress them. Yeah oh yeah absolutely. That scene with

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the Belgian nurse was it Bastogne I think. I mean just those two.

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As a paramedic myself even though it's not in wartime that bond between you know medics and nurses in a hospital when we've just fought to save someone.

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You're not the first paramedic to tell me that. In fact I talked to some EMT guys here in little Lockhart, Texas

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and they were talking about oh we recognize you from Band of Brothers and I said yeah.

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He said who is that medic? I said it was Shane and I would tell them the story about it

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and they've always I guess paramedics just gravitated that and they'll talk about that

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the Belgian nurse and how he was it was the only other person who was performing the acts of mercy

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that he was and so they just immediately meshed and she by the way was brilliant in her role.

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I saw they just had a reunion recently didn't they where they met each other I think 20 years later.

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Yeah I was with Shane in Bastogne in Belgium and she showed up and it was magic absolute magic.

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They were just boom together and they were the grave side of the real look.

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It was the angel of Bastogne. Beautiful. So we're going to get to COVID and the impact of shooting

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your most recent project but what was interesting was I didn't realize that Band of Brothers was

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initially released in 2001 shortly before 9-11 so and he was kind of indicating that really it was

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a 10-year anniversary that gave it this massive boost. Talk to me about that through your eyes.

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You put all this you know work in you've been working since the inception of the project.

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It's finally done and again no one's going to have any ill feeling about the tragedy apart from you

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know the actual event itself but from a filmmaker's perspective what was that journey like and then

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what was that kind of second upsurgence like for you? Well the phone lines lit up all of the young

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guys who'd worked on Band of Brothers and all that sort of thing said god they've blown us off the

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stage here nobody will pay any attention and I said you know I think you're wrong and I said the

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reason you're wrong is it's a tragic moment like this like 9-11. People are looking for reassurance.

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They're looking for righteousness and Band of Brothers shows that and it turned out I was right.

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It didn't despite the depravity of the incident it didn't bother us at all and the ratings people

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were tuned in. Well I think it was perfect timing in a way because especially you know when you had

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the 10-year anniversary it really got put in front of us again by that point you'd had a lot of Americans

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in you know in combat wearing our uniform so I would hope that it was you know an asset to them

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knowing their story was being told even though it was a previous conflict but also educating the

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civilians of the world of what combat actually looked like and a version of what our men and women

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were experiencing now in the Middle East. It's probably one of the one of the most gratifying

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experiences I have. I talked to a lot of people in uniform and the amazing thing to me is they'll all

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say you know Band of Brothers was a big thing. I said well why? Well it just it was the

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right stuff. Yeah it was the right stuff and you're the right stuff too.

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And so I kind of use that to shoehorn my opinion and help them regain a little self-confidence.

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Look those were you. Those were you in the 1940s at 19, 18 years old. You remember being 18 or 19

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years old don't you? And of course they do and I said well it's the same deal you know.

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It's the same deal. You're that guy and one of these days we're going to be involved in doing

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a mini-series about you and what you did. So where Band of Brothers sort of sheds shine some light

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on that our lack of understanding it's great stuff and believe me I have gone nowhere in the military

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that I don't hear about it. I mean everybody loves Band of Brothers and they'll get right down to an

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individual incident and scene and say well what was this? Sometimes I can't remember but I'll

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try to come up with something. What about Generation Kill? I had Bobby Burke on a couple of times now.

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He's become a good friend and then Rudy Reyes another you know amazing Marine. I saw if I'm

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not mistaken you guys shared a stage in a fireside chat you and Rudy. Did you have any interaction

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with that project? I didn't and I would have liked to have but I think they had the authors

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and the real guys there and they kind of filled my role. So I've become kind of the history of war guy

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not the current guy because I didn't serve in Afghanistan. Closest I got was Beirut, Lebanon

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in 82, 83. So I'm not that guy. Now I have been called on to work on some of those projects and

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when I do I always try to call somebody or talk to somebody who's actually been there and say look

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this is what I think. This is what I believe. What's the real deal? And they'll tell me and

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then I try to translate that to film. So as I touched on the beginning of the interview when we

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spoke last you were just crowdsourcing for No Better Place to Die. So walk me through where

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you got with that project and then if we can still expect it or if it's kind of on the hold

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pattern at the moment. It's been on a hold pattern for 10 years and it continues to be. I've had

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every producer who has a sympathetic bone in his body tell me that that's a great story.

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That defense of Lafayere by the 82nd Airborne is a story that needs to be told and I said yeah

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and here it is. The problem is and I'm hoping that in some ways Masters of the Air will help

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solve this. The problem is that you know to do it right and I wouldn't want to do it if we didn't

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do it right. It takes 30-35 million dollars. That's a lot of money. We're in an era of streaming

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so theatrical release is not a big thing or not the big thing it used to be.

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And so it's difficult to get people to cough up that much money. They'll cough up a little

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bit but I have to turn that down because the last thing in the world I would I should ever do

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is to bring out something that I wrote and something it's a story like that and then just

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make it garbage because we didn't have enough money to you know we had to do it on a shoestring.

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I won't do that. So it remains active, it remains alive and it remains without a guy who's got enough

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faith to raise 35 million dollars to give it to me to do this.

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Now what about the crew you've been working Tom Hanks and Spielberg that's that's not something

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that they've grabbed onto yet? I have been pitching it regularly to them and Tom

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and Tom Hanks signed on as executive producer just to see if that would help the process along

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and it got it got us some more interest but it didn't get us a big check.

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And you know I've talked to Saw Stephen and Tom in LA for the premiere of this thing a week ago

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and I was hesitant to kind of take the shine off Masters of the Air to talk about

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No Better Place to Die, my project, but they're aware of it and I'm hoping that if Masters of

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the Air really lights it up, if folks really love this thing then I'll be the first kid right

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outside the door with this script and saying how about this one now and hopefully I'll get

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it done before I croak but we'll see. Well I think there's more of a demand now,

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it's funny I'm writing my second book, first one was a non-fiction, the second one is a fiction

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and it's going to tell the multi-generational trauma story. Modern day is a firefighter but

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two generations back now you're in World War II era because I think you know that's just it.

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The way that you get to the hearts and minds of people is through the screen,

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not many people are reading these days so I think but I think there's a real desire for

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real stories, powerful and more often than not true stories but in the military vein as well

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because in the British SAS origin story we've had a mini-series already I think there's a film

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coming out now so I think it's a really good environment and when Masters of the Air really

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lands that hopefully will be the right time for No Better Place to Die. Yeah absolutely and you

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know it's a strange thing, Hollywood wants to count itself as a literary area, doesn't want to be the

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great unwashed wasteland out there, they read books and many times they'll grab a book and option

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it and then turn it into a script and off it becomes but they want that truth, they want that book

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so somebody's reading, not everybody that we'd like, for us as authors we'd like everybody to

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have their nose buried in a book all the time especially the book that we wrote, that's not

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happening, I get it but there's a squeeze on in Hollywood production as I mentioned the

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theatrical experience, the business of going every weekend to see a movie on a big screen,

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COVID put paid to that for the most part and it has never come back, it struggles to come back

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and movies will get a week-long run at some metroplex but for the most part people want to be

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watching that stuff at home and what that means for us as writers is that we've got to make sure

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what we write will fit on that screen rather than demand the huge IMAX or widescreen treatment,

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it's unfair, it's unfortunate but it's the nature of our beast, we've got to make sure that we're

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beast, we've got to modify what we're doing, hell I've talked about no better place to die, I have

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pitched it not only as an epic widescreen theatrical release, I've divided it up into

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10 episodes so that we can do it as a mini-series and that'll probably be the way it happens

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depending on a lot of things like the success of Masters of the Air.

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Will Barron Well let's get to that then, so talk to me about

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who initially picked up that story and then walk me through the beginning of it and then let's get

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to the impact that COVID had on production. John Mallow Well as usual, I had read Don Mallow's book,

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Masters of the Air, simply because that's what I read, I read that stuff for fun and typically

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as it was with the Pacific, as it was with the Band of Brothers, the phone rang and it was Tom

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Hanks and he said, hey listen, we got this thing and I said what thing? And he said we're gonna do

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the 8th Air Force in the European Theater of Operations and I said ah I know where this comes

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from, Steven Spielberg's dad was a flight crewman, a combat flight crewman in World War II so I said

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that's it isn't it? He said yeah he finally got to me, we gotta do this. But he said it's gonna be

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huge, you know 50-100 people all the time and you know 11 people in an aircraft and it's gonna take

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a lot of money so we don't want to screw it up, we don't want to short-shrift it, we want to get it

382
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:32,400
right. And I said well what do you know, I'm not an aviator Tom and he said yeah but you're a soldier,

383
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:38,640
he said and the theory is and he believes it because Tom's a military historian and his own

384
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:46,800
right, he said they had to become soldiers before they became airmen and I said that's right.

385
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:52,880
Well that's what we do, we train them to be soldiers and then let the experts

386
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:59,520
take over and teach them about flying in a 17 and all that sort of thing and I said well

387
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:04,720
and I said well yeah I guess that's a good idea and I went we put together my exo and I put

388
00:42:04,720 --> 00:42:12,320
together a 12-day syllabus and every day in that classroom in UK we had 50 people

389
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:21,360
and we did we approached it with a sort of a crawl walk run. So we'd ever think from you know

390
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:27,840
what kind of knot do you put in your khaki tie and we got through all of that. What's the difference

391
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:32,800
between the way a civilian carries himself and the way a soldier carries himself, how do you

392
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:39,040
detect that? And then all the way up to right up to putting them in the aircraft, teaching them

393
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:45,520
emergency escape routes and how to load bombs and all that sort of thing and for that part since we

394
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:52,400
had no practical experience in that stuff we had to do a ton of research and fortunately we had a

395
00:42:52,400 --> 00:43:00,080
bunch of experts that were over there who'd flown B-17s and had maintained them and to give you an

396
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:05,680
idea of the extent that they went on this thing, I can't tell you what the budget is because that's

397
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:16,960
still classified information but we had two full-scale B-17s built and had them constantly on the

398
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:26,560
runway out there at the location that we made to be Thorpe Abbotts in East Anglia and

399
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:34,320
those things you could do them like a remote control car, you could actually drive them around,

400
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:40,560
they'd do everything to fly and they were correct down to the absolute to the rivets were correct

401
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:47,360
and so when the kids would get in those aircraft in one of the gunnery positions or in the pilots

402
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:53,120
or co-pilot seat, bombardier navigator up in the nose, they were surrounded by the real stuff

403
00:43:54,000 --> 00:44:02,320
and so I think that added to our ability to force versus millitude and then we did,

404
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:09,360
most people nowadays are used to the business of acting to green screen, you project a green screen

405
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:14,560
behind the actors and then later on by computer magic you could put whatever you want to on that

406
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:22,480
green screen and it serves as a background. Well we took a huge leap beyond that in this thing we

407
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:29,760
called volume unit and it was literally the whole section of the aircraft involved was a

408
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:37,680
whole section of the aircraft involved was surrounded by monitors and you could, the

409
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:43,520
airplanes were flying from various directions and fighters were coming in and Flakwish was exploding

410
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:48,320
and you were in it, you were right there in the middle not just a one-dimensional looking, you

411
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:53,040
were right in the middle of that and it was amazing to watch it and fortunately you know

412
00:44:53,040 --> 00:45:00,960
I think I was 10 and a half months in UK on that film and I watched it every day and it was just

413
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:13,280
absolute magic but that's it, making that film was also, it was a technical nightmare but the

414
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:22,320
guys who can do that stuff were able to do it. The problem was we had this COVID thing hanging over

415
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:31,360
our heads and the UK took it very seriously so everybody had to be mashed constantly, we had to

416
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:39,760
stay away from each other in a lunch line, every day we had three or four tests you know to see if

417
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:48,000
we were COVID positive and God forbid one of the actors would be and then we were shut down for a

418
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:54,320
week you know while he got cleared to get back on the set or we had to scramble the schedule so it

419
00:45:54,320 --> 00:46:02,400
was absolutely a nightmare to get it done. The neat thing is we had the right people, everybody was

420
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:09,600
feeling the same pain in the ass over this thing so they understood what was going on and they

421
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:18,160
were attempting to get by it but I'll tell you we called them the COVID cops and I mean there must

422
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:23,120
have been a hundred of them, you couldn't swing a cat in UK without hitting one of these COVID

423
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:30,240
specialists and you know I don't want to, well maybe I do want to be a little to panic over this

424
00:46:30,240 --> 00:46:38,080
sort of thing but it was a bit much and I can understand the liability situation and so on and

425
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:43,680
so forth you don't want to you know get somebody really sick and but we were all healthy young

426
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:51,840
people or they were healthy I wasn't young but the point is that you know to me it wasn't that big

427
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:57,600
a threat it was like getting the flu so you had to stay in bed for a week and then you went back to

428
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:03,920
work but it grinds and it stays with you you know it's like a burr under your saddle if you will

429
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:08,960
or that one weird noise in your car you know what the hell that is but it's always there

430
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:14,160
that's what the COVID deal is like. I've had this discussion with a lot of people I mean actually

431
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:19,840
ended up putting an extra episode out each week when COVID first emerged just because I wanted to

432
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:24,720
give people tools you know actionable things when they were told they couldn't leave their house and

433
00:47:24,720 --> 00:47:29,600
the beaches and the parks and the gyms were closed so I bring on you anyone from nutritionists to

434
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:35,520
sleep experts you name it things that they can action and where I mean firstly we're across the

435
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:40,960
line for me is when we realized that there wasn't the efficacy from the vaccines that we were being

436
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:47,120
told and yet they were taking uniform jobs from people people that have served for 10, 20, 30 years

437
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:53,200
the other thing was though that I think was so irresponsible is we did have a captive audience

438
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:57,840
and whatever your views on it because it was a real virus like you said but it was the underlying

439
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:02,640
health of the individual that dictated if you just got sick and then were okay again or you died.

440
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:11,040
Two, three years later there were no you know grand changes to improve the nation's health

441
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:15,760
they weren't you know boosting local farmers again giving them incentives to grow clean food

442
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:21,520
there weren't PE programs you know return to schools and real food being cooked in in school

443
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:27,680
lunches so this is what I really struggle with is the middle ground was yes it's a real virus but

444
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:32,800
yes it's also killing people who are sick so the answer is let's make people healthier and that

445
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:39,360
message was completely disregarded not only here in the US but in the UK as well. Yeah it's certainly

446
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:46,800
true I mean I certainly did get that message you know as a guy who had to stay in shape all his

447
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:51,680
life it occurred to me that we need to get to the root of this and be healthier going in

448
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:59,040
or being on on exposure rather than you know being in such sorry shape that you know we're

449
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:05,280
going to get sick and die that occurred to me but you're right I didn't hear a lot of people

450
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:10,240
talking about it I didn't hear a lot of people saying look improve your diet be healthier you'll

451
00:49:10,240 --> 00:49:16,880
it'll stave off the potential effects of COVID and they were right they're right you're right

452
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:22,240
and they were right all along. Yeah yeah and the thing is this is going to affect the next virus

453
00:49:22,240 --> 00:49:27,120
you know it's this is the point is that that conversation is going to reduce all the deaths

454
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:32,480
so whether it's virus related suicide overdose obesity related I mean all the things you're just

455
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:37,760
pushing for a healthier country but what we did is we ignored that and if you look at statistics

456
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:43,360
we're still getting more obese more overweight and the mental health crisis is growing. Yeah we've

457
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:52,400
got a real short memory and I'm worried as clearly you are that what what lessons we were able to

458
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:57,760
wrinkle out of the whole COVID experience like being healthier going in and so on and so forth

459
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:04,640
I don't know that we're going to remember that we have a really short-term memory about those

460
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:10,640
things and and you're you're in the middle of them and people are falling over every day before you

461
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:18,320
said oh I like this in COVID so why don't we do this yeah I and and I don't know the answer to

462
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:25,680
that I don't know that the government is the answer it rarely is but I don't know

463
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:32,080
medical practitioners like you guys you know can can advocate for that sort of thing and I hope you

464
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:38,880
do. Absolutely well going back to the boot camp in our last conversation we talked about platoon in

465
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:43,680
the jungles we talked about bander brothers I think saving private Ryan separating Matt Damon

466
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:50,000
from the cast and creating that kind of palpable dislike what was unique about this boot camp and

467
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:55,600
what was some of the notable stories you remember from the cast you work with this time? Well we

468
00:50:55,600 --> 00:51:03,040
did typically what I do in order to get their attention young young men are sometimes like mules

469
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:07,680
you know you've got to hit them right between the eyes with a two by four and then suddenly they're

470
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:15,040
awake and they're paying attention so my my two by four is physical training and so we did a lot

471
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:22,000
of that every day we we did physical training and and I think that piqued their interest why am I

472
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:28,160
doing physical training when I fly a B-17 in my character because you need to soldier first

473
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:32,880
because you need to understand this group mentality that there's something more important than you

474
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:37,920
there's a mission and there's a unit and that's more important than you as an individual so we

475
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:46,240
use PT as I typically do to start building that sort of relationship and also as is typical with

476
00:51:46,240 --> 00:51:52,880
us I insisted that nobody ever has their real name they are that character and they begin to

477
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:59,280
address themselves as that character and they understand what that character is now the one of

478
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:08,080
the weird things about Masters of the Air is we were tremendously officer heavy in

479
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:16,400
Banner Brothers and in the Pacific for the most part we dealt with enlisted men the guys on the

480
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:21,360
pointy end of the bayonet the guys doing the fighting but in this case with the 8th Air Force

481
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:30,720
in a B-17 heavy bomber group in this case the 100th bomb group heavy flying B-17s everybody was an

482
00:52:30,720 --> 00:52:35,600
officer practically the only enlisted men were the gunners and the mechanics on the ground and all

483
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:42,960
that sort of thing so we were we were tremendously officer heavy and I was worried going in

484
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:51,200
that the people who worked 24 hours a day to keep these aircraft flying to repair them and so on

485
00:52:51,200 --> 00:53:01,120
and so forth would be underrepresented we were fortunate to have Raph Law whose Jude Law's son

486
00:53:02,240 --> 00:53:11,280
plays a senior enlisted maintainer a real character in the 100th bomb group and he brought

487
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:21,680
like to that sort of thing and that was that was fun but the difficulty was that what I really needed

488
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:28,400
was to get them in those B-17s those ones that we had built that god knows how much money

489
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:38,160
and I wasn't able to do that now I really wanted to do a situation with our basic training element

490
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:45,440
boot camp if you will I wanted to do it the way we had always done which is I own them for a period

491
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:51,760
of two weeks or whatever it is and they live with me if they're an infantryman they live in a hole

492
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:58,480
that they've dug in the ground or they live in a barracks and that I think that full immersion

493
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:05,760
sort of really helps keep them in the mentality in the mindset because the 1940s is a long time ago

494
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:13,200
to these young men so we needed or we're looking for the opportunity constantly to remind them

495
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:22,640
of the mindset that the young men they're portraying had but we could do it for scheduling

496
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:30,400
purposes and production purposes they just weren't available we couldn't pull them out of the mill

497
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:36,160
for two weeks and have them live with us in a barracks now we got to thinking about it my

498
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:41,760
my ex-o Mike Stokey and I got to talking about it we said yeah and he by the way he he had his dad

499
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:49,360
was a b-29 pilot and I had a an uncle who was a reluctant tail gunner on a reluctant tail gunner

500
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:53,760
so we'd had we'd had a few stories

501
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:59,520
but we got to talk about this you know this is unusual we always own them and we're always able

502
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:06,640
to manipulate the training center to fit all that whatever we see a hole we fill it but we're not

503
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:11,200
going to have that opportunity and Mike came up with something interesting he said look

504
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:20,800
isn't it true that the men in the 8th Air Force based in East Anglia at I don't know 20 40 years

505
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:31,360
at at I don't know 20 40 US bases former ref bases they flew eight ten hours into a very dangerous

506
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:38,480
mission and assuming they made it back they were literally in a in a peacetime environment they

507
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:42,960
were there in the UK and they could go to the pub and they could have good food and they could sleep

508
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:48,960
in a bed and all that sort of thing so he said let's just apply that let's make that an element

509
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:56,960
of our training I said yeah yeah I get that that's uh so we we say the training day is your mission

510
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:02,000
mission is over now you can go down to the hotel bar and do whatever you want to do and show up the

511
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:08,960
next morning ready for PT so we incorporated that element of what it was like to to fly in the ETO

512
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:15,200
into our training casual it's interesting looking back when you did the boot camp for us for Terminator

513
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:22,080
2 in Japan the cohesion that was formed by the time I think it was three days we did it was very

514
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:29,440
short but um that team building and when I compare it now to the lowering of standards in some of the

515
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:35,440
fire and police academies or orientations here that's one of the missing pieces the moment you

516
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:42,160
lower standards you lose that shared suffering you lose that um you know that unbreakable bond

517
00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:47,680
that for example when I was in California Anaheim those men are still my brothers to this day I

518
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:54,320
literally saw my old captain about three or four days ago so with shifting to kind of military

519
00:56:54,320 --> 00:57:00,240
first responders for a second with this uh you know World War II lens moving forward talk to me

520
00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:06,480
about the importance of that shared suffering and keeping that bar where it should be yeah the

521
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:13,360
the hard part um and and you could do physical and psychological approaches to that team building

522
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:20,880
sort of um you know running and chanting and feeling the power of that unit as boots in

523
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:26,480
in rhythm strike the ground that's that's a physical part of it that's a sensory part of it

524
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:35,280
and and you you focus on that sort of thing but the difficulty lies in saying look um you've got

525
00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:44,240
to think of it that way you've got to think of this group as your family and you've got to think of

526
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:51,600
this group um as the most important thing in the world to you uh never mind Suzy to home and never

527
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:57,360
mind mom and dad and everything else it's right in those 11 men that are in that B-17 with you

528
00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:06,160
and you live or die depending on your ability to trust them to your for your ability to uh to be

529
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:11,200
reassured that they've got your back that they've got your they're on your right and on your left

530
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:17,920
and you know that and that gives you strength so it's that strength of of community it's that

531
00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:26,000
strength of structure that it's the most difficult thing to build but you must do it um if you don't

532
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:32,160
then anything else you try to teach them is going to be superficial absolutely well we talked before

533
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:38,640
we hit record you know compared to some projects that you've worked on there's been less promotion

534
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:43,760
and so i'm so honored that you came onto this podcast so i can help tell the story so for

535
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:49,600
people listening you know probably aren't aware of the story give us an overview of these incredible

536
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:55,760
men and what we're gonna you know watch as we start diving into the series well you're gonna

537
00:58:55,760 --> 00:59:02,560
watch a jaw-dropping visual experience and and i know that sounds like hyperbole and i guess it is

538
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:08,480
but damn it that's what it is i mean you just you you gasp at some of the things you'll see in this

539
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:14,240
thing uh and that's the special effects guys and the special effects are really this the star of

540
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:24,640
the show but masters of the air tells the story of the 100th bomb group heavy a B-17 uh bomb group

541
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:32,480
uh within the the american eight air force and uh and you get to know you get you get a view of

542
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:38,160
that story by getting to know the characters and the characters were were some pretty weird ducks

543
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:46,640
there was a reason that um the 100 bomb group was called the bloody 100 because they took some

544
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:54,000
casualties and you get to see you get to see the effect of taking those casualties on the

545
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:59,680
unit and unit morale and how how they had to struggle so hard to keep that morale up

546
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:08,480
and that goes back to having built that team so that when in the fictional area when somebody

547
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:13,680
dies or when a crew is lost you feel it you feel it because you trained right next to those guys

548
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:24,320
um and so that that was handy but i think i think the overall emphasis was to tell the story of a

549
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:31,840
of a bomb group involved in the air war in the etl european day of operations uh and flying those

550
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:39,920
long missions across the channel into nazi-occupied europe western europe um and how desperately

551
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:48,400
dangerous that was um the you hear a lot about casualties in one operation one military

552
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:57,520
operation it it pales in comparison with what the average b-17 bomber group suffered i mean they lost

553
01:00:57,520 --> 01:01:02,880
aircraft right left and indifferent sometimes crew got out of them most times they didn't

554
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:11,040
uh and so they one one bomber goes down that's 11 11 souls lost if not more um and and you see

555
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:19,120
or i think the purpose of making the series was to shine that light on those guys here's an aspect

556
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:25,440
of the war that big war that maybe you didn't know maybe you didn't understand unless you're

557
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:30,560
history nerds like you and i are you know buried your face in all that history and you know

558
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:36,640
i've buried your face in all that history um you'd have you're going to have no idea

559
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:45,040
how dangerous and deadly it was to fly those b-17s over occupied europe through acres and acres of

560
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:52,320
flex so that you could walk on it and uh through uh german luftwaffe aircraft that were attacking

561
01:01:52,320 --> 01:02:02,000
you and buzzing in and out of the in and out of the uh the formations firing rockets uh it was a

562
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:11,040
deadly business um and you're flying at 10 000 feet that was all other structure i mean half the

563
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:16,640
time you see these actors they're wearing an oxygen mask well they have to i mean because

564
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:24,320
they're above 10 000 feet there's no oxygen um but that makes the the storytelling difficult

565
01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:30,960
you got to do it all with your eyes um and they did a great job at it uh they really did but

566
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:38,000
i think people will have no idea of that they wore electric suits that were actually plugged

567
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:43,520
into the electrical system of the aircraft just to keep them they you couldn't you couldn't

568
01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:49,440
handle anything without gloves and if you had a wounded man in the aircraft hit by a piece of

569
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:54,960
shrapnel or something the business of keeping him alive was going to be

570
01:02:57,280 --> 01:03:02,640
was going to be vastly complicated by the fact that you're up at 10 15 000 feet

571
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:10,640
so all of those are insights i think that uh the masters of the air is going to bring and i think

572
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:17,280
that uh as well as just being a special effects extravaganza which it is

573
01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:25,040
audiences will come away with a little understanding of that and say my god was it

574
01:03:25,040 --> 01:03:31,040
really that dangerous and the answer is yeah it was someone made a comment one of my guests recently

575
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:36,400
that a lot of you know certainly high school but even college level people that are entering the

576
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:42,480
workforce a lot of our members of the military weren't even born when 9 11 happened so it's

577
01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:47,760
history to them you know and so you go back all the way to world war i mean that's history to me

578
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:52,400
but at least you know my my father and mother grew up during the the bombings in london they

579
01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:57,280
were evacuated to the countryside my grandfather shot down the first german bomber over the oakney

580
01:03:57,280 --> 01:04:01,840
island so i had you know at least some kind of connection to this but i think this is what's

581
01:04:01,840 --> 01:04:07,680
so important about these you know stories being told is especially that conflict i mean i think

582
01:04:07,680 --> 01:04:14,080
most of us would agree that if there was one one war that was truly justified it was world war two

583
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:18,320
to stop the horrendous atrocities i mean my family would be speaking german if we'd failed

584
01:04:18,320 --> 01:04:23,760
it's that simple so uh you know to educate the people and when i spoke to don graves the world

585
01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:30,960
war two marine um you know he was kind of heartbroken about what he was seeing in the us at the moment so

586
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:37,920
i think by being reminded of the true true sacrifice you know that protected our shores

587
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:43,920
of the men and women um in the world war two era i think is is imperative so that we have gratitude

588
01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:50,720
for what we're experiencing today well i hope so i mean certainly in in my personal case

589
01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:58,320
or the the mission statement of my company uh that's what we're after i mean to shed some

590
01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:05,840
long overdue and richly deserved light on those very aspects and i think i think we've done a good

591
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:12,560
job at it and i think masters of the air is a great addition absolutely i want to hit one more area

592
01:05:12,560 --> 01:05:17,120
then we'll go to some closing questions correct me if i'm wrong it was either this this last year or

593
01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:22,160
maybe the year prior i remember seeing you posting where you were talking you were actually on the

594
01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:28,560
beaches in uh i believe it was in normandy for the d-day anniversary so talk to me about that experience

595
01:05:29,520 --> 01:05:36,000
well it's i've had it i've had that experience more than once i've been fortunate to be invited

596
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:46,880
to bastone uh to uh the the point to hawk area uh to uh utah and uh and umaha beach

597
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:53,120
uh and there's something awe inspiring i guess is is the word when you stand there and you look

598
01:05:53,120 --> 01:06:00,640
around and you say jesus this place was absolutely chock-a-block with dying men and and people trying

599
01:06:00,640 --> 01:06:06,240
to charge inland uh when when all this happened or there's the area that the rangers had to climb up

600
01:06:06,240 --> 01:06:17,600
uh at point to hawk um or or frigid as hell in bastone in the winter and you're standing out in the

601
01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:24,560
washak and and looking at the holes where they where they were and that's awe inspiring i mean

602
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:32,800
if you know the story um and i think because of band of brothers and pacific and and now masters

603
01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:37,680
of the air you will know the story uh you wouldn't be there if you didn't understand there was

604
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:46,080
something special here uh so i think i think that's handy uh but it never ceases to uh

605
01:06:48,480 --> 01:06:55,120
to create within me a desire to walk away from the madding crowd and to just stand there for a

606
01:06:55,120 --> 01:07:01,280
minute and say god thank god they did what they did i don't know how they did it but thank god they

607
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:06,480
did i always find that moment and and when you're standing on those beaches in normandy

608
01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:14,400
or you're standing on the island of pelalu in the pacific or you're you're uh you're trying to

609
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:22,480
figure out how to stay halfway warm at the washak in bastone i always find that moment i said back

610
01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:28,560
off from the minute back off and look and just thank the lord that they did what they did

611
01:07:28,560 --> 01:07:32,880
absolutely and especially when you kind of look at the where technology was back then there was no

612
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:38,400
gps i mean all these things that we rely on now it really reframes you know the incredible

613
01:07:38,960 --> 01:07:45,920
you know um task that was given to them so i want to transition to closing questions um last time

614
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:51,280
we spoke you'd already had it you know a host of books out so between six years ago and now

615
01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:58,080
talk to me about your books have you added to your collection yeah uh i've got a great uh

616
01:07:58,080 --> 01:08:05,280
korea korean war book i've always felt that uh the korean war was underserved in literature

617
01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:12,640
because the guys who fought in korea to chose the reservoir and the naktong pocket and uh the

618
01:08:12,640 --> 01:08:19,920
pusan perimeter those guys were the ones who taught me and taught me to stay alive when i had

619
01:08:19,920 --> 01:08:25,680
my own uh wartime experience so i thought they were underserved and i wanted to tell a story

620
01:08:25,680 --> 01:08:32,400
about i wrote a book called uh korean odyssey which has done very well i'm i'm gratified that

621
01:08:32,400 --> 01:08:38,480
it has um and made one of these days become a movie when we can move into korea for more war too

622
01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:49,520
and i have continued to uh uh get my recurring character shake davis uh the retired marine gunner

623
01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:56,160
into more and more adventures i think since we talked i probably added four books to the

624
01:08:56,160 --> 01:09:03,760
the continuing uh shake davis saga uh so i mean i'm and i'm staying busy i'm writing uh

625
01:09:04,960 --> 01:09:13,520
we've started a new uh online essay uh that i guess people call it a blog but i hate that word

626
01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:20,960
that word um so it's it's a an essay a screed some thoughts that i that we're putting online

627
01:09:23,920 --> 01:09:31,840
so i'm i'm taking this opportunity i think uh and now that i'm almost 80 i'm taking this opportunity

628
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:40,160
to uh reflect a bit and that that comes with uh the business of telling your story now with korea

629
01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:48,240
firstly why did it become the forgotten war why you know after such um celebration of the

630
01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:54,720
triumphs of world war ii did our men and women that served in korea have almost that kind of

631
01:09:54,720 --> 01:10:01,200
the opposite like it seemed like it was buried a little bit in history well i think people wanted

632
01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:10,320
to ignore it they've been through four years of uh and in the case of the uk uh eight years of war

633
01:10:10,880 --> 01:10:17,840
um and and serious sacrifices that people had to make on the home front and uh and the constant

634
01:10:17,840 --> 01:10:24,960
flood of casualties coming in from various worldwide battle fronts i don't think they wanted to they

635
01:10:24,960 --> 01:10:29,600
didn't ignore it completely but they didn't want to saturate themselves in it like they did with

636
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:35,600
what was happening in world war ii and it was a little difficult most people couldn't find korea

637
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:41,680
on a map it was a little difficult to uh to identify with what was going on there

638
01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:48,960
uh stop the demon communist incursion from china i don't care what i care about can i get

639
01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:56,000
tires from my car um and and so i think it just got sort of shuffled into the background

640
01:10:56,000 --> 01:11:04,000
uh and that's unfair because it was a brutal difficult fight and um and and well fought

641
01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:11,040
uh there were some strategic mistakes made up on the eisenhower turnin level

642
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:19,200
but for the guys you know trying to survive in korea and and fight off the north korean and chinese

643
01:11:19,200 --> 01:11:26,400
communist it was a brutal war and i think underserved for a lot of reasons that we discussed

644
01:11:26,400 --> 01:11:33,040
so i said what the hell i'll write a book about it and i did uh it's fiction follows one um

645
01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:41,040
one marine rifle company from spool up from post-war skeleton existence post-world war

646
01:11:41,040 --> 01:11:47,600
two skeleton existence spooling up into becoming uh a solid fighting force it follows one company

647
01:11:47,600 --> 01:11:54,960
and uh and the characters i think are i like to think i write good characters in particular

648
01:11:54,960 --> 01:12:00,720
when i when they're marines and i have an affinity for that sort of life so that's uh

649
01:12:01,600 --> 01:12:07,600
that's why i think the korean war is underserved and why i was prompted to write a book about it

650
01:12:08,080 --> 01:12:12,560
beautiful well what about books that other people have written the last six years is there's one or

651
01:12:12,560 --> 01:12:19,120
two that you'd recommend that you've read recently well i've you know i i think i read everything that

652
01:12:20,640 --> 01:12:28,560
that uh is written by vietnam and there's been a couple that have really uh tripped my trigger

653
01:12:29,360 --> 01:12:37,360
there's one called a silent cadence that has come out which is terrific uh just just a wonderful

654
01:12:37,360 --> 01:12:44,320
uh bit of storytelling um that one's caught my eye and you know i'm reading all sorts of

655
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:51,520
uh i'm kindle addicted and so i've everywhere i go i've got this thing in front of me and i'm

656
01:12:52,080 --> 01:13:00,320
researching it but i think i think probably uh a quiet cadence probably is is the one that has

657
01:13:00,320 --> 01:13:06,720
caught my eye most recently and what about documentaries and films well you know for a

658
01:13:06,720 --> 01:13:11,680
you know for a guy like me and a guy like you you can't get enough documentaries i mean there's not

659
01:13:11,680 --> 01:13:18,720
enough time in the day but i'm eclectic about those things i try not to focus on one area because

660
01:13:18,720 --> 01:13:23,760
because of what i do and the nature of the films i work on or the television series i work on

661
01:13:24,320 --> 01:13:29,520
you have to have a really broad-based knowledge uh just because i was a marine doesn't mean i don't

662
01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:36,240
need to know the army i don't need to know the air force or uh because i fought in vietnam doesn't

663
01:13:36,240 --> 01:13:45,120
mean i don't need to know world war two or korea and so when there's such a plethora of those

664
01:13:45,120 --> 01:13:52,640
documentaries out there um hell they the just the history channel alone uh will take you all over

665
01:13:52,640 --> 01:13:58,800
the world uh in in you know everything from you know the peloponnesian wars right up to today in

666
01:13:58,800 --> 01:14:07,840
afghanistan um so you can pick and choose and if if i'm feeling like well i don't i don't know that

667
01:14:07,840 --> 01:14:15,040
i know enough about uh the uh hindu kush and uh i'll find some money some documentary and go after

668
01:14:15,040 --> 01:14:20,320
it beautiful all right well the next question is there a person that you recommend to come on this

669
01:14:20,320 --> 01:14:25,680
podcast as a guest to speak to the first responders military and associated professions of the world

670
01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:36,240
you know i'm not sure i do uh it would be great i've i've the whole first responder law enforcement

671
01:14:36,240 --> 01:14:44,320
thing here in texas has been a revelation to me um it's it's the last one of the last bastions of

672
01:14:44,320 --> 01:14:50,320
that great respect for law enforcement you know i if i were you i'd go find a retired texas ranger

673
01:14:50,320 --> 01:14:56,320
and say well you want to you want to know what's behind the badge how about that you know fantastic

674
01:14:56,320 --> 01:15:01,200
and i'm sure beautiful all right within the very last question before we make sure where people

675
01:15:01,200 --> 01:15:10,000
can find you what do you do to decompress these days well i'm still uh doing p.t at my age i'm still

676
01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:18,080
running uh three four and five miles three times a week um it's still lifting weights um

677
01:15:18,080 --> 01:15:27,920
still lifting weights um and uh you know i've i've found a whole new audience here in small town texas

678
01:15:28,560 --> 01:15:32,000
so they all want to hear the war stories and they all want to hear the movie stories and everything

679
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:41,840
so i'm i'm i'm pretty popular in a small town you know big fish in a small pool uh and so i spent a

680
01:15:41,840 --> 01:15:48,240
lot of time getting to know uh these folks uh i didn't meet many of those kind of folks in in la

681
01:15:49,120 --> 01:15:53,120
so it's a revelation here uh and i'm i'm doing a lot of sort of

682
01:15:53,760 --> 01:15:59,920
inadvertent sociological research i guess uh and and enjoying it quite a bit beautiful yeah my in-laws

683
01:15:59,920 --> 01:16:03,920
live in san antonio so next time i'm over there i'll have to give you a call and see if you're

684
01:16:03,920 --> 01:16:09,280
around you should yeah in that far a couple hours absolutely all right well then the very last

685
01:16:09,280 --> 01:16:14,240
question if people want to learn more about masters of air or find you online where are the best

686
01:16:14,240 --> 01:16:22,720
places well i think you know without getting into the alphabet soup here um really all i've got to

687
01:16:22,720 --> 01:16:28,720
do is look up masters of the air or uh we have changed the designation of our company we used to

688
01:16:28,720 --> 01:16:33,760
be warriors incorporated we're now warriors global because we work all over the world

689
01:16:33,760 --> 01:16:39,680
uh and i think you know if you go to warriors global it'll take you right to uh some stuff about

690
01:16:39,680 --> 01:16:46,880
the making of masters of the air and and uh and then you you plug yourself into the podcast network

691
01:16:46,880 --> 01:16:54,960
like this one and uh and god knows how many i've done uh so it's out there if you want to hear about

692
01:16:54,960 --> 01:17:00,000
it beautiful well i want to thank you so much yeah firstly for originally coming on i mean that was

693
01:17:00,000 --> 01:17:06,240
i think 15 years after i'd worked with you in in japan but here we are now 2024 the uh the show

694
01:17:06,240 --> 01:17:11,120
will be out by the time this airs so i think january 26th was the date but uh i want to thank

695
01:17:11,120 --> 01:17:15,920
you so much for being so generous with your time and coming back onto the podcast so always a

696
01:17:15,920 --> 01:17:31,920
pleasure it's it's nice to spend time with a kindred spirit and you're one well done