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This episode of Behind the Shield podcast is brought to you by 511 Tactical, a company

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that I've used for well over a decade and they are offering you a 15% discount on every

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And I will tell you that code in just a moment, but I want to do another product highlight

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and I can testify as with the other ones through personal experience.

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I wore a 511 uniform way back when I worked for Anaheim Fire in California, so we're talking

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13 years ago.

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And I know for a fact that some of my brothers and sisters I work with still wear some of

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the clothes that they were given when I was hired there.

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So some of the job shirts, jackets, and this really kind of resonated with me because I

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realized so many of the departments I've worked at, there are men and women with lockers crammed

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with old worn frayed uniform.

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And that really represents wasted budget.

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So to have uniforms with durability means that you don't have to purchase them as often.

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Now you can apply that budget elsewhere.

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Another area they've really focused on is redesigning their women's first responder

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uniforms.

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I am a skinny six foot tall man and some of these uniforms I'm issued literally hang off

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me like a trash bag.

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And I can imagine it's even worse being a female first responder.

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So they have really taken that into account and redesigned the cuts.

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So they're far more flattering to the female firefighter, first responder, medic, et cetera.

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On top of that, several departments I've worked for have gone from job shirts to polo shirts.

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Five 11 has those.

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And then to underline a product I've already talked about, they have the footwear.

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I wore the CST slip on boot for a long time from five 11.

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And now the Norris sneaker that you've heard me talk about is a lightweight duty boot that

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puts far less pressure on the ankles and knees, the back, et cetera.

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So once again, code shield at five 11 tactical.com.

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This episode is sponsored by life aid.

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Now life aid has several products, one of which I want to highlight because it's so

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pertinent to you, the sleep deprived audience.

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Their product focus aid is a healthy alternative to the energy drinks that I see so many of

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us relying on because we are exhausted.

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There's no other way of putting it.

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These energy drinks that I've seen are putting our men and women into hospitals with arrhythmias,

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GI distress, adding to anxiety, certainly affecting mental health.

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So what focus aid has done is they've removed all the terrible ingredients and used natural

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healthy ingredients, natural sweeteners and replace the high levels of caffeine with a

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nootropic.

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And what a nootropic is, is a supplement for your brain.

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As a first responder, I can attest that this then allows you to be alert on a call, but

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when it is time to rest, to go to bed, whether it's the end of the shift, whether it's after

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a call, you're actually able to not only sleep, but get a better quality of sleep as well.

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So an incredible product I urge you guys to try and life aid has reached out to you, the

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It's going to end up being less expensive than the drinks that you're using.

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And I'm telling you right now, it's an incredible product and please reach out and let me know

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what you think.

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Welcome to episode 266 of Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to bring to you

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Chief Pat Kenny.

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Now I met Pat in San Antonio at the Rosecrans Florian Symposium, which is an incredible

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mental health conference for first responders.

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And then we actually talked at length a few weeks later when I was in my car over the

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phone.

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Now we were on the Bluetooth, my wife was next to me and I was literally in tears hearing

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him tell his story.

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Now these tears were part sadness and empathy, but also part elation from some of the positive

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sides of some of the dark sides of his stories and what he's doing now.

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So an incredibly powerful interview that will certainly let a lot of people out there know

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they're not alone, but also he's a real beacon of light for what you can do with that trauma

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to turn it into positivity and create resilience within yourself.

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So before we get to the interview, please take a moment, just go to your podcast app,

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subscribe to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating.

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Five-star rating really does make this more visible to other people looking for this podcast

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and episodes like this one with Pat certainly need to be heard by everyone.

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And with that being said, also take your social media, email, word of mouth, carrier pigeon

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and share these incredible episodes.

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This story in particular is going to resonate very deeply with many, many people.

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So without further ado, I introduce to you Chief Pat Kenny.

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Enjoy.

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So Pat, welcome to the behind the shield podcast.

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Well thanks very much, James.

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I look forward to speaking to you and hopefully to provide some information, maybe even just

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some hope for people who are out there that are struggling in areas dealing with mental

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health, either their own or in their own organizations or families.

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Thank you so much.

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I mean, your story is incredibly powerful and obviously as a veteran of this service

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as well, I think there's going to be a lot of information for people to take from this.

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The first question, where are we finding you on planet earth today?

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So I'm the Fire Chief in Western Springs, Illinois.

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Western Springs is about 17 miles west of the city of Chicago.

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Brilliant.

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And going back to the very beginning then, so where were you born and what was your family

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dynamic?

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Okay, so I was born in the city of Chicago.

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Some people will laugh and say, you have an accent.

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They'll say, I have an accent too.

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You sound like a guy from the south side of Chicago.

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And that's true.

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I grew up around Midway Airport there, very Irish Catholic family.

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Both my mom and dad were born in Ireland, actually lived about 15 miles apart from each

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other in Ireland.

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Never met there.

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They did a dance in Chicago.

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Both were travelers to the United States with the intention to send money back to help out

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their families at home.

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Only child, which sounds completely contradiction to an Irish Catholic.

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I think that my parents were like, okay, one's enough when we've had you, but they actually

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had me later in life, especially at that point.

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So I grew up on the south side.

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I always joke about there were three pictures in our living room.

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There was a picture of John F. Kennedy.

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There was a picture of the pope.

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And there was a picture of the original Mayor Daley.

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You didn't say anything negative about any of those three.

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You genuflected when you walked past those pictures.

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I never knew why, but you did.

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And it was powerful.

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So faith was very strong in our family and Irish heritage also was very, very strong.

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Grew up also very blessed.

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I had a godmother, my Aunt Mary, who lost her husband at a very early age.

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And she lived with us from the time I was an infant all the way until I was 25.

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And to be very honest, if people like who I am today, she should get the credit for

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that because due to a number of circumstances, she really ended up raising me.

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So I came up through that family, spoiled, only child.

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But of course, if you're an Irish mother and you have an only child who's a male, your

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thinking is eventually and hope is he'll become a priest.

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So that was kind of my mom.

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She had already kind of mapped it out for me.

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And so growing up, part of that spoiled part was consistently in my family, you were shown

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love by being fed.

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And so about the time I was in fourth grade, I was pretty large.

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And so when your name is Pat and you're fat, it's a little ugly in terms of a lot of the

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grief that you take.

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My dad was an all Ireland hurler, which is a sport in Ireland that's revered and a great

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athlete and by fourth grade, I'm not showing any of that.

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I'm having trouble walking and chewing gum.

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And thank goodness, somewhere around sixth grade, I think God felt sorry for me and said,

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we better have some of these things kick in.

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And I became very athletic and had a chance to go to high school on a scholarship for

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baseball and football.

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And that was kind of my dream is that here's where I'm going to go.

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And I had already kind of in my mind, mapped out my future of what I was going to do.

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I was going to be a professional, either baseball player or football player.

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I actually even had figured out that there were two different kinds of cheerleaders who

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watched baseball or football.

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And so I'd have the prettiest girl for the baseball game and the prettiest girl for the

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football game.

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Not necessarily the same girl, but so I was I'm good.

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And there would be my dad sitting in the stands and would be my hero watching me.

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And in the summer between eighth grade and freshman year, when I was supposed to go and

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then hopefully obtain these scholarships, I was in a car accident.

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I was actually going to buy a new pair of cleats and was on my way coming back from

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the store with my buddies.

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And there were two lanes of traffic stopped and we cut through the middle of the traffic.

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What we didn't realize was there was a gravel shoulder on the one side and a car decided

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he didn't want to wait and came speeding up that side shoulder to make a turn.

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I never saw him.

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The only thing I remember is a yellow streak.

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And so he caught me.

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The front bumper caught my right knee and smashed into the left one.

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And I luckily spun along the car rather than going under the car.

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And I remember waking up looking at the tailpipe going, I was just a bad dream and sat up and

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then saw this crowd and realized I couldn't feel anything from my waist down.

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Took me to the hospital and ended up that my right knee was shattered in 12 places,

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my left in eight.

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I tore the ligaments in my left knee pretty bad.

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And they didn't have arthroscopic surgery back then.

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So it was you were in these toe to hip casts and loads of rehab.

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And obviously the dream of playing competitive sports, especially at any kind of professional

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level that was out the door.

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They weren't sure at that point that I would walk again.

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So physical therapy started some depression for me at that point was obviously there.

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I started high school.

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The first day of high school was Halloween, which when you're a freshman coming in and

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everybody else has kind of been through the whole freshman thing and you are now the target

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it was a little bit ugly on the crutches and but it was getting better.

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And I was starting to get determined that wonderful Aunt Mary was that voice and people

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do have the power.

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Sometimes I hear people say, well, one voice can't carry a group.

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Yeah, you can.

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She did.

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She was like, you can do this.

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You can come back.

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You can make it.

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And I was starting to get a little bit more hopeful.

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Day after Christmas, my dad loved duck.

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That was kind of the famous dinner that my mom always made on special occasions for him.

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I wasn't a big fan, but he loved it.

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And he could not eat his dinner.

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And I heard him then in the bathroom a little while later throwing up.

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And my dad was very rarely ever sick.

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So I knocked on the bathroom door and he opened the door.

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And I remember vividly in the kitchen or in the bathroom sink were blood clots.

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And I was like, Dad, we need to call the ambulance.

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And he was like, yeah, you probably do.

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Now I should have known that that was the first red flag because my dad never went to

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the doctor.

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He old country Irish didn't trust the doctors, didn't want to go.

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So the thought of him calling an ambulance, huge shock at that point.

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But we did.

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Chicago Fire came loaded in on the stretcher and as they're heading out the door, he blocked

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the door with his arms.

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My dad was a big guy at that point.

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He had been very athletic, but now was very heavy and but huge and strong.

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He blocked the door with his arms.

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And I remember he got tears in his eyes and I had only seen my dad cry one other time.

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And it was when he lost his brother.

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And he looked at me and he said, I'll never be back here again.

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I was like, no, dad, I go, it's just I know you're a little scared, but it's just you

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they're going to go to the hospital and fix you up.

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This is fine.

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So he went went to the hospital on the 26th of December.

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And on January 1st, he died of a massive hemorrhage in his stomach.

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And it turned out that he had had stomach cancer.

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Never said a word, never went to the doctor.

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When you went back and put things together later, realized that he had been drinking

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pretty heavily the last six months when he especially on the weekends, but would drink

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when he came home at night from work to and the doctor said, yeah, he was trying to kill

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the pain.

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I can't imagine how much misery he was in because he said we were going to have to take

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out his entire stomach and try to treat this.

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That would have been the first line of defense.

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It was so far along.

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So in this span of really from July to January, I had gone on from having this entire my life

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mapped out in this most positive heroic version in my hero in the stands to not wondering

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if I'd ever be able to play anything again, let alone walk in the guy that I really wanted

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to see me do it the most was gone.

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And I was crushed completely.

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I went back to school after my dad's funeral.

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And about a week afterwards, I went to the bus that we took from the high school went

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by the cemetery.

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So I got off the bus on a very cold.

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It was I remember was a bright sunny day.

233
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It had snowed the day before.

234
00:14:15,020 --> 00:14:17,100
It was really, really cold outside.

235
00:14:17,100 --> 00:14:23,020
The wind chill was in the teens and get off the bus with my bag, bag of books and the

236
00:14:23,020 --> 00:14:27,660
walk from the bus stop down along the street to get into the cemetery and back to where

237
00:14:27,660 --> 00:14:31,460
he was was my mile maybe maybe a little bit more than that.

238
00:14:31,460 --> 00:14:36,820
And I hadn't been doing a whole lot of walking for any distances at that point.

239
00:14:36,820 --> 00:14:37,820
And I didn't care.

240
00:14:37,820 --> 00:14:40,100
So I just walked all the way back to where his grave wasn't.

241
00:14:40,100 --> 00:14:44,380
It was still where you could see it easily because it was the only brown dirt around

242
00:14:44,380 --> 00:14:51,300
the snow and put my bag down and said, I came here to die.

243
00:14:51,300 --> 00:14:53,660
And I laid down to commit suicide.

244
00:14:53,660 --> 00:14:58,740
I figured if I laid there long enough, it'd be cold enough and I'd die.

245
00:14:58,740 --> 00:15:04,020
And I always tell people look at suicide as being a very selfish act.

246
00:15:04,020 --> 00:15:05,020
And what were they thinking of?

247
00:15:05,020 --> 00:15:06,940
They had a wonderful wife and children.

248
00:15:06,940 --> 00:15:07,940
They had a wonderful job.

249
00:15:07,940 --> 00:15:10,500
They had a wonderful all sorts of stuff.

250
00:15:10,500 --> 00:15:17,260
I can just tell you standing back now as a parent and a spouse to think that I could

251
00:15:17,260 --> 00:15:22,620
lose my spouse unexpectedly in a five day period and then maybe two weeks later have

252
00:15:22,620 --> 00:15:25,620
my kid, my only child kill themselves.

253
00:15:25,620 --> 00:15:28,700
The devastation that that would do.

254
00:15:28,700 --> 00:15:32,500
But I can honestly tell you that was never on my radar.

255
00:15:32,500 --> 00:15:33,500
Not even a thought.

256
00:15:33,500 --> 00:15:36,500
All I thought was I'm in this incredible pain.

257
00:15:36,500 --> 00:15:39,620
My life is nothing but black with no hope.

258
00:15:39,620 --> 00:15:45,260
And the one person that I cared about the most was somewhere that I really believed

259
00:15:45,260 --> 00:15:46,500
and I wanted to go there.

260
00:15:46,500 --> 00:15:48,940
And I didn't care if there were ramifications.

261
00:15:48,940 --> 00:15:54,180
But I just needed to get out of this pain and I wanted to see him again.

262
00:15:54,180 --> 00:15:58,300
So I laid down and very peaceful, very calm.

263
00:15:58,300 --> 00:16:01,900
And you hear people who have committed suicide.

264
00:16:01,900 --> 00:16:07,300
Those that saw them earlier that particular day were like I could have never told that

265
00:16:07,300 --> 00:16:08,300
this was coming.

266
00:16:08,300 --> 00:16:09,300
They seemed very happy.

267
00:16:09,300 --> 00:16:13,580
Well, sure they were because they were relieved that they weren't going to be in this pain

268
00:16:13,580 --> 00:16:14,780
anymore and that's how I was.

269
00:16:14,780 --> 00:16:15,780
I wasn't scared.

270
00:16:15,780 --> 00:16:17,940
I wasn't like, okay, here we go.

271
00:16:17,940 --> 00:16:25,340
And I felt myself kind of getting cold and drowsy and all of a sudden for the first time,

272
00:16:25,340 --> 00:16:29,540
I heard my dad's voice and it was like you need to get up.

273
00:16:29,540 --> 00:16:32,460
And I remember thinking this is great.

274
00:16:32,460 --> 00:16:34,260
I am close to passing over.

275
00:16:34,260 --> 00:16:37,820
I'm already starting to hear things.

276
00:16:37,820 --> 00:16:41,900
And then the next time I heard it, it was how I had remembered it for the 14 years of

277
00:16:41,900 --> 00:16:43,580
my life when he was pissed.

278
00:16:43,580 --> 00:16:48,220
It was you need to get up and get out of there.

279
00:16:48,220 --> 00:16:54,060
And I remember sitting up like whoa and looking over at that grave and it was like you need

280
00:16:54,060 --> 00:16:55,780
to get the hell out of here.

281
00:16:55,780 --> 00:16:58,220
So I tried to get back to my feet.

282
00:16:58,220 --> 00:17:01,180
Now I was really frozen.

283
00:17:01,180 --> 00:17:04,700
Put the bag over my back and I'm like I got a long way to go to get out of here.

284
00:17:04,700 --> 00:17:08,380
And this push that was like I can't let him down.

285
00:17:08,380 --> 00:17:09,380
I can't let him down.

286
00:17:09,380 --> 00:17:10,380
I got to get out of here.

287
00:17:10,380 --> 00:17:11,380
And I was scared to death.

288
00:17:11,380 --> 00:17:12,380
I wouldn't at that point.

289
00:17:12,380 --> 00:17:16,860
So I went from being very peaceful that I wanted to die to being scared to death I was

290
00:17:16,860 --> 00:17:18,180
going to die.

291
00:17:18,180 --> 00:17:21,500
Probably because I was really afraid if I faced him on the other side, it was not going

292
00:17:21,500 --> 00:17:22,500
to be a happy.

293
00:17:22,500 --> 00:17:25,900
So I make my way out of the cemetery back then.

294
00:17:25,900 --> 00:17:27,140
No cell phones or anything.

295
00:17:27,140 --> 00:17:32,340
Just pay phones and I called and I got a hold of my Aunt Mary and I said I got off the bus

296
00:17:32,340 --> 00:17:33,500
to go see dad.

297
00:17:33,500 --> 00:17:34,860
Can you come get me?

298
00:17:34,860 --> 00:17:37,500
And she said absolutely and came and got me.

299
00:17:37,500 --> 00:17:45,380
And to the day I died, I never told them either my mom or my Aunt Mary the real reason I went

300
00:17:45,380 --> 00:17:47,300
to the cemetery that day.

301
00:17:47,300 --> 00:17:53,100
And part of it was because I was ashamed of what I had done, what I had thought about.

302
00:17:53,100 --> 00:17:55,220
Could I have used an awful lot of counseling?

303
00:17:55,220 --> 00:17:56,980
Oh brother, could I have?

304
00:17:56,980 --> 00:18:01,140
Could it have helped me with some of the pain I went through in high school, my own journey

305
00:18:01,140 --> 00:18:06,020
of feeling bad about myself and who I was and no purpose and oh boy it would have been

306
00:18:06,020 --> 00:18:07,060
an incredible help.

307
00:18:07,060 --> 00:18:14,980
But back then as there is now, there was this incredible stigma about it's a weakness.

308
00:18:14,980 --> 00:18:18,980
Here I am now the man of the house at 14 so you certainly can't be weak.

309
00:18:18,980 --> 00:18:24,300
I was caught in that and certainly caught in I didn't want to let my dad down.

310
00:18:24,300 --> 00:18:32,120
So, I went through this journey myself of thinking about suicide, of working my way

311
00:18:32,120 --> 00:18:39,140
through why I rationalized and I couldn't tell anybody nor could I seek any help.

312
00:18:39,140 --> 00:18:42,020
And I think that that was meant to be.

313
00:18:42,020 --> 00:18:45,720
I truly do believe that everything in life happens for a reason.

314
00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:47,660
I don't have to like the reason.

315
00:18:47,660 --> 00:18:50,380
Most of the times I don't understand the reason.

316
00:18:50,380 --> 00:18:55,420
Sometimes I do, sometimes in hindsight I see back and now given what I do today, I see

317
00:18:55,420 --> 00:19:01,820
why that journey, I see why the tragedy, I see why the getting to that desperate feeling

318
00:19:01,820 --> 00:19:07,900
of wanting to take my own life because when somebody says to me I felt that way and everybody's

319
00:19:07,900 --> 00:19:12,740
feelings different but to get to that desperate point, I get it.

320
00:19:12,740 --> 00:19:18,540
I get it and there's no judgment because I was there and I can see how you can get

321
00:19:18,540 --> 00:19:20,260
to that point.

322
00:19:20,260 --> 00:19:22,020
And how old were you then?

323
00:19:22,020 --> 00:19:23,020
14.

324
00:19:23,020 --> 00:19:24,020
Yeah.

325
00:19:24,020 --> 00:19:28,700
So, I mean just listen to your journey.

326
00:19:28,700 --> 00:19:30,660
Firstly I want to go back to the fourth grade.

327
00:19:30,660 --> 00:19:35,300
So, my little boy is kind of going through something at the moment where he's the smallest

328
00:19:35,300 --> 00:19:41,220
in his school year and the lack of self-esteem is crushing.

329
00:19:41,220 --> 00:19:43,940
He's a gold-hired little kid.

330
00:19:43,940 --> 00:19:45,860
He's actually a good-looking little boy.

331
00:19:45,860 --> 00:19:51,260
I had a face like a smacked ass as they say but I was a very awkward child with dry skin

332
00:19:51,260 --> 00:19:57,420
and like a white man's afro and messed up teeth but he doesn't even have that but my

333
00:19:57,420 --> 00:20:02,620
god when these kids are down and it's so hard to pull them back out.

334
00:20:02,620 --> 00:20:09,460
So, mentally for you when you were quote unquote fat pat, what was that for you like mentally

335
00:20:09,460 --> 00:20:12,260
before you had that growth spurt?

336
00:20:12,260 --> 00:20:17,540
I used to end up really getting sick a lot before I would even go to school.

337
00:20:17,540 --> 00:20:22,340
I had taken to the doctor loads of times for wondering if I had a stomach disorder or whatever

338
00:20:22,340 --> 00:20:29,220
and it was now I look back and it was anxiety because I was afraid to walk into that school.

339
00:20:29,220 --> 00:20:31,860
I was afraid I was going to get pushed up against a locker.

340
00:20:31,860 --> 00:20:38,460
I was afraid I was going to be ridiculed and then for me I was caught in the kind of that

341
00:20:38,460 --> 00:20:42,380
conflict of academically I could do pretty well which almost was the curse of death.

342
00:20:42,380 --> 00:20:46,060
It would have been better if you were a D student because at least you'd be consistent

343
00:20:46,060 --> 00:20:50,420
with okay he's clumsy and he's uncoordinated and he's stupid.

344
00:20:50,420 --> 00:20:56,140
So okay well this kid's just a loser but because you could do well academically you stood out

345
00:20:56,140 --> 00:21:02,780
for the wrong reasons and everything was judged at that point on your athletic ability and

346
00:21:02,780 --> 00:21:07,180
I remember just looking in the mirror and feeling really bad about myself and I learned

347
00:21:07,180 --> 00:21:09,380
a pattern at that point and I don't blame anybody.

348
00:21:09,380 --> 00:21:11,500
I don't blame my mom or anybody for it.

349
00:21:11,500 --> 00:21:17,300
I learned the pattern of really truly when I get emotional doing emotional eating and

350
00:21:17,300 --> 00:21:20,940
I think that just really contributed to getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

351
00:21:20,940 --> 00:21:25,340
It was like okay I'd come home and I could eat your dinner, my dinner, the neighbors

352
00:21:25,340 --> 00:21:30,580
dinner it didn't matter and it wasn't to eat to be full I think it was eat to be comfort.

353
00:21:30,580 --> 00:21:36,540
It wasn't until the cycle switched that I was getting support and getting respect from

354
00:21:36,540 --> 00:21:39,860
my peers that all of a sudden I didn't need that as much.

355
00:21:39,860 --> 00:21:46,860
I can tell you however to this day I'm 62 to this day when I'm under stress everything

356
00:21:46,860 --> 00:21:52,060
you could put in front of me tastes tremendous even something I can't stand and that's when

357
00:21:52,060 --> 00:21:57,940
my red light goes on and go whoa what is going on with you there's that's one of my own self

358
00:21:57,940 --> 00:21:58,940
indicators now.

359
00:21:58,940 --> 00:22:03,660
Yeah I mean you see I think that's a big part of the obesity epidemic that we have at the

360
00:22:03,660 --> 00:22:06,860
moment is that emotional attachment to food.

361
00:22:06,860 --> 00:22:09,580
If we're happy and we're celebrating let's go out and get dinner.

362
00:22:09,580 --> 00:22:13,700
If you're sad and commiserating let's go get ice cream and whatever your alcohol of

363
00:22:13,700 --> 00:22:19,020
choice is and I think that that's a very underestimated thing for us and children and then it drives

364
00:22:19,020 --> 00:22:24,980
me crazy that then when in our schools that even though we're aware of all the health

365
00:22:24,980 --> 00:22:30,380
issues especially you and I and the profession that we're in that was still the options for

366
00:22:30,380 --> 00:22:35,500
these kids in these schools are still so bad so you know we're just accelerating this process

367
00:22:35,500 --> 00:22:42,320
where I would assume that at least when you were younger it was probably a lot more natural

368
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,820
type food and probably the dinner ladies were actually cooking it instead of the process

369
00:22:45,820 --> 00:22:48,180
crap that these kids have these days.

370
00:22:48,180 --> 00:22:52,220
Yeah correct you were and your mom made your lunch to take to school and for a lot of us

371
00:22:52,220 --> 00:22:57,100
that went to school live close enough from school that you came home and got a regular

372
00:22:57,100 --> 00:23:01,940
meal at lunchtime and so it wasn't the same.

373
00:23:01,940 --> 00:23:05,380
Grab a candy bar here grab this here and keep you going it was like yeah you were supposed

374
00:23:05,380 --> 00:23:08,220
to sit down and eat a real meal that's true.

375
00:23:08,220 --> 00:23:14,640
Yeah now going to the grave site at 14 years old it's something that I again in this journey

376
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:21,580
of learning about mental health that I've been on two things firstly like you said oh

377
00:23:21,580 --> 00:23:26,620
that was so cowardly how could they do that you know that's a chickenshit move and you

378
00:23:26,620 --> 00:23:32,820
start speaking to these men and women that have been literally either about to or like

379
00:23:32,820 --> 00:23:37,500
in Kevin Hines who I had on has actually done it he just survived jumping off the Golden

380
00:23:37,500 --> 00:23:44,660
Gate Bridge and the feeling that they're a burden as well so it's a selfless thing in

381
00:23:44,660 --> 00:23:50,260
their mind you know you got the like you said the darkness that just absolute misery but

382
00:23:50,260 --> 00:23:53,580
then there's also that my family will be better off without me and that's the thing I think

383
00:23:53,580 --> 00:23:58,700
is very misunderstood by a lot of people is it's not a cowardly thing that they truly

384
00:23:58,700 --> 00:24:02,260
think they're doing something good for their family obviously the reality is it's the polar

385
00:24:02,260 --> 00:24:03,260
opposite.

386
00:24:03,260 --> 00:24:08,480
Agreed and I really the light bulb went on for me I was fortunate to hear a lecture by

387
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:13,980
Dr. Thomas Joyner and he talked about he said there's two psychological states that have

388
00:24:13,980 --> 00:24:20,180
to occur simultaneously to really put you into peril for suicide and that is that you

389
00:24:20,180 --> 00:24:26,940
feel like you don't belong and you feel like you're a burden and the final part is the

390
00:24:26,940 --> 00:24:32,060
ability to actually take your life and he said that's the scary part about first responders

391
00:24:32,060 --> 00:24:37,340
is you all took an oath that if there is a life to be saved you're willing to put your

392
00:24:37,340 --> 00:24:42,620
life on the line you're not you're gonna fight against that instinct that I'm the most primary

393
00:24:42,620 --> 00:24:47,120
he said then you get those other two states and if they occur together you've got the

394
00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:52,580
trifecta and you really are now right on the precipice of being able to take your life

395
00:24:52,580 --> 00:24:57,260
and there's no question about that I think in talking that that's a consistent theme

396
00:24:57,260 --> 00:25:03,700
with people who have gotten to a point where it's like I didn't successfully go through

397
00:25:03,700 --> 00:25:08,060
but I really did feel sincerely like well they'll be better off without me whether it's

398
00:25:08,060 --> 00:25:11,260
looking at it financially whether it's an insurance policy and that'll take care of

399
00:25:11,260 --> 00:25:14,560
them and instead of us paying all these bills to try and deal with my mental health they

400
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:20,060
now are gonna have a lump sum of money or it's the emotional impact that it takes in

401
00:25:20,060 --> 00:25:23,060
you know they're not gonna have to worry about that phone call anymore they're not gonna

402
00:25:23,060 --> 00:25:27,380
have to worry if they walk in my room if I overslept that I overdose it it gives them

403
00:25:27,380 --> 00:25:33,860
some peace and it truly is I the people that I've read about and some of the people that

404
00:25:33,860 --> 00:25:39,340
I've talked to you realize that there's a tremendous love in their heart it's just they

405
00:25:39,340 --> 00:25:44,960
don't love themselves and that's the hardest part what we see on the outside about those

406
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:49,980
people of their talent and their beauty and the things that they've got gave them gifts

407
00:25:49,980 --> 00:25:53,900
to bring to this earth we don't they don't see any of those they look in that in that

408
00:25:53,900 --> 00:26:01,720
mirror and they see nothing but pain and suffering and ugliness and so if you can put yourself

409
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:06,780
in their shoes just to try for a second you can see where it'd be like I don't want to

410
00:26:06,780 --> 00:26:11,340
look at this anymore and I don't want to force the people I love to look at this anymore

411
00:26:11,340 --> 00:26:15,420
and I think that's I think that's right on the button that's where it goes yeah and you

412
00:26:15,420 --> 00:26:21,000
said about that third element what terrifies me as well is you take a you know a mentally

413
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:26,640
healthy person up onto a 10-story building and then get them close to the edge there's

414
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:31,660
that giant invisible hand that's pushing you back like what the fuck are you doing get

415
00:26:31,660 --> 00:26:36,260
back from the edge of this building and I think that you know obviously the the depression

416
00:26:36,260 --> 00:26:40,580
side is one thing but with our community with you know so many of these these men and women

417
00:26:40,580 --> 00:26:46,980
out there the sleep deprivation when you introduce that and that appears to me like it breaks

418
00:26:46,980 --> 00:26:54,460
down that invisible hand where now that resistance to it that innate physiological thing that

419
00:26:54,460 --> 00:27:00,540
we have the the desire to reproduce and then thrive so we can protect our offspring and

420
00:27:00,540 --> 00:27:05,700
you know live a full life I think that's what humans are supposed to do that that protective

421
00:27:05,700 --> 00:27:11,180
mechanism is just broken down and that's what terrifies me is we've created an environment

422
00:27:11,180 --> 00:27:15,940
these men and women that are already seeing trauma that they have to process but then

423
00:27:15,940 --> 00:27:19,300
we're putting them in an environment that's setting them up for failure both physically

424
00:27:19,300 --> 00:27:26,340
and mentally yeah I think the the environmental and preparing them is such a critical factor

425
00:27:26,340 --> 00:27:30,600
because for any of us if you think about when you're really over tired you you ended up

426
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:35,220
on a long trip for a vacation take something positive and you ended up with some flight

427
00:27:35,220 --> 00:27:42,260
delays or whatever you are irritable your tolerance level for things is incredibly reduced

428
00:27:42,260 --> 00:27:47,260
and so then you take people who are in a critical situation and are feeling already suffering

429
00:27:47,260 --> 00:27:52,460
some of the anxiety or depression and so their tolerance level for how much they're willing

430
00:27:52,460 --> 00:27:58,620
to put up with is significantly reduced and I think then that makes the choices of how

431
00:27:58,620 --> 00:28:04,800
to get healthier more limited and can end up being there really appears to only be one

432
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:10,340
choice here to get significant relief and to finally get ultimate relief and that's

433
00:28:10,340 --> 00:28:15,020
to walk through that door and take my life and you're right I think we don't from the

434
00:28:15,020 --> 00:28:21,860
very beginning indoctrinate our folks and regardless of what first responder you are

435
00:28:21,860 --> 00:28:28,140
I think it's universal when we bring people into our profession right at their orientation

436
00:28:28,140 --> 00:28:33,760
and I don't care if you're a volunteer combination or career department small big doesn't matter

437
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:39,220
we don't in the orientation say you're going to see some really bad shit and it's going

438
00:28:39,220 --> 00:28:45,660
to affect you because we are recruiting people who care we want you at two o'clock in the

439
00:28:45,660 --> 00:28:49,600
morning when you've been to this house for the third time and you're exhausted and grandma

440
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,740
fell out of the wheelchair again and all you're going to do is put her back in it's okay to

441
00:28:53,740 --> 00:28:58,460
be pissed on the way to this call it is not okay to be pissed once you clear that threshold

442
00:28:58,460 --> 00:29:02,180
that's your grandmother and that's how we want you to act and all of a sudden they go

443
00:29:02,180 --> 00:29:07,500
to that call and they end up that this happens to be the time that no she's not alive anymore

444
00:29:07,500 --> 00:29:11,580
and they've lost her and I've talked to crews that were like yeah it used to be a pain to

445
00:29:11,580 --> 00:29:17,420
go to this house and I felt genuinely really bad when she passed but we don't talk about

446
00:29:17,420 --> 00:29:20,780
that in the orientation we don't talk about the fact that you're going to see burn victims

447
00:29:20,780 --> 00:29:23,620
we don't talk about the fact your children are going to lose their lives and you're going

448
00:29:23,620 --> 00:29:28,420
to have to look at their parents and go I couldn't do anything I was helpless and that's

449
00:29:28,420 --> 00:29:33,900
always been my big analogy that I use is when you start in this vocation you get a cape

450
00:29:33,900 --> 00:29:39,740
and that cape allows you in conjunction with the big guy upstairs to every once in a while

451
00:29:39,740 --> 00:29:45,980
make a difference but you can't do it all the time sometimes you completely fail we

452
00:29:45,980 --> 00:29:49,900
don't tell them that in the orientation either we we are gonna be brave you're gonna be strong

453
00:29:49,900 --> 00:29:52,460
people are gonna love you and you're gonna make a difference all the time you know you're

454
00:29:52,460 --> 00:29:56,420
basically gonna be a superhero is what we tell them we don't tell them the reality because

455
00:29:56,420 --> 00:30:00,860
if we did we would have some people would get up after the orientation go this is not

456
00:30:00,860 --> 00:30:06,420
for me this is not what I thought it was and that would be great but we don't then we get

457
00:30:06,420 --> 00:30:09,820
them into our academies and we don't do it there either we talk about mental health it's

458
00:30:09,820 --> 00:30:15,020
how to respond to the mental health patient not how to take care of your own mental health

459
00:30:15,020 --> 00:30:19,340
we don't normalize it we tell them you know we're gonna teach you the correct ways to

460
00:30:19,340 --> 00:30:24,060
lift so you don't injure your back but realize that not every situation are you gonna be

461
00:30:24,060 --> 00:30:27,920
able to do that somebody has a full arrest next to the toilet you're not gonna be able

462
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,340
to do proper lifting techniques you're gonna do everything you can to get that person out

463
00:30:31,340 --> 00:30:37,940
there so you can start to do life-saving techniques and if it does you might hurt your back and

464
00:30:37,940 --> 00:30:42,300
if you do here's what you do got a first of all notify somebody right away so I make sure

465
00:30:42,300 --> 00:30:46,380
we've got the paper chain so you're legally covered and then we're gonna send you to a

466
00:30:46,380 --> 00:30:51,060
doctor who understands what we do in this profession and they're gonna look at you and

467
00:30:51,060 --> 00:30:55,260
if it's a significant back injury they may say you know you might need a muscle relaxer

468
00:30:55,260 --> 00:30:58,020
so we're gonna give you some medication you know what you could use probably two weeks

469
00:30:58,020 --> 00:31:03,740
of physical therapy to get you stronger with the ultimate goal being to return you to the

470
00:31:03,740 --> 00:31:10,340
job they understand at a 100% level but we don't do that when we talk to them about mental

471
00:31:10,340 --> 00:31:13,980
health hey you know what you're gonna see bad stuff you might have nightmares you're

472
00:31:13,980 --> 00:31:17,180
not be able to sleep you might start drinking more you might start eating more you might

473
00:31:17,180 --> 00:31:21,780
start eating less you might fight with your spouse more and when it happens that's normal

474
00:31:21,780 --> 00:31:27,740
and here's the doctor that you go to who understands what you do for a living and they may give

475
00:31:27,740 --> 00:31:32,640
you medication or they may not they may give you therapy or they may not with the ultimate

476
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:38,540
goal being to return you to 100% of who you were to come back and do what you love we

477
00:31:38,540 --> 00:31:44,440
don't do any of that until the shit hits the fan we do no human pre-planning we're great

478
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:49,180
about these assessment centers and I'm an assessor I've standing them on the other side

479
00:31:49,180 --> 00:31:52,620
of the table as well as being the candidate and it's like all right there's three people

480
00:31:52,620 --> 00:31:58,060
on the engine and here's your scenario you know there's a train who hits a car and then

481
00:31:58,060 --> 00:32:01,900
you get there and find out that it's a hazmat and it's a rollover and the car that they

482
00:32:01,900 --> 00:32:07,340
hit is four nuns who had two orphans with them and there's a big festival going on during

483
00:32:07,340 --> 00:32:11,420
town it's only a half a block away in this huge cloud just hit it there's three of you

484
00:32:11,420 --> 00:32:19,180
fix it and it's like okay and we train for that we plan for that it's those superhuman

485
00:32:19,180 --> 00:32:23,660
acts but we don't do any human pre-planning that goes okay you're gonna have a guy who's

486
00:32:23,660 --> 00:32:28,660
gonna walk in and go I was just told that my eight-year-old daughter was diagnosed with

487
00:32:28,660 --> 00:32:34,660
bone cancer what the hell do I do we don't train on that we don't look at that we don't

488
00:32:34,660 --> 00:32:41,580
we don't have a system in place that says okay let me offer you some resources that

489
00:32:41,580 --> 00:32:45,300
can help you with that not that I can not fix it don't try to fix it because you're

490
00:32:45,300 --> 00:32:50,420
not trained to fix it but listen with empathy listen with sympathy and say I can't man I

491
00:32:50,420 --> 00:32:55,220
can't even imagine being in your shoes and then know what you can do to help we don't

492
00:32:55,220 --> 00:33:02,020
do that we wait until the person is circling the drain we misjudge what their actions and

493
00:33:02,020 --> 00:33:07,340
symptoms are about just being a plain ass to people and we immediately say we're gonna

494
00:33:07,340 --> 00:33:12,740
get rid of this person instead of knowing oh wait a minute whoa this could be this I

495
00:33:12,740 --> 00:33:18,900
always kid about you know if you ask any firefighter across the world are you okay the 100% answer

496
00:33:18,900 --> 00:33:22,740
is gonna be yeah good chief I got it you know they could be missing an arm their ear got

497
00:33:22,740 --> 00:33:30,380
ripped blinded and they're okay I'm good I'm good I got it but if you ask the same person

498
00:33:30,380 --> 00:33:35,740
is there anything I can do for you the fear in doing that is they may take you up on it

499
00:33:35,740 --> 00:33:38,780
and then you feel like you gotta go can we start all over again are you okay because

500
00:33:38,780 --> 00:33:45,340
I understand that I don't understand the second part and it's our fault as a service that

501
00:33:45,340 --> 00:33:50,580
we don't train them in that and we don't normalize it to take the stigma out of it and a wonderful

502
00:33:50,580 --> 00:33:55,620
firefighter in Michigan when I was was doing one of my son's talks after I got done with

503
00:33:55,620 --> 00:34:02,340
the talk he said you know I on my shift I had a female firefighter and she has diabetes

504
00:34:02,340 --> 00:34:05,940
and honestly James I thought he was going down what are women doing in the fire service

505
00:34:05,940 --> 00:34:09,620
blah blah blah not the way he was going at all he said you know and she gives her her

506
00:34:09,620 --> 00:34:13,380
insulin and at the kitchen table and we don't we don't miss a beat we're having breakfast

507
00:34:13,380 --> 00:34:19,540
we're just keep talking said so the next shift I came and I dumped my pills on the table

508
00:34:19,540 --> 00:34:24,380
and he said everybody looked at the one Mikey what's up with the pills he said well I'm

509
00:34:24,380 --> 00:34:32,380
bipolar and they just looked and one of the guys said well what's up with showing that

510
00:34:32,380 --> 00:34:35,940
now he said well Linda over there when she gives herself the insulin nobody thinks about

511
00:34:35,940 --> 00:34:40,900
that she can't take that insulin in order to be stable physically because she's got

512
00:34:40,900 --> 00:34:44,980
these chemical things going on in her body she's got no control over I have the same

513
00:34:44,980 --> 00:34:49,700
thing and so we said well what happens if you don't take your medicine he goes well

514
00:34:49,700 --> 00:34:53,340
sometime in the middle of the night I'll get an axe and put it in one of your skulls and

515
00:34:53,340 --> 00:35:01,260
he looked and froze he said I'm sitting you I'm that's but he goes it's the same thing

516
00:35:01,260 --> 00:35:05,940
so why would this be any different I went oh my god I said you should have been you

517
00:35:05,940 --> 00:35:11,260
should have been the head of some university in terms of dealing with psychological trauma

518
00:35:11,260 --> 00:35:17,580
I go to lay it out like that it's just perfect in that I guarantee the people the men and

519
00:35:17,580 --> 00:35:23,460
women sitting at that table had a whole new appreciation for what is mental health and

520
00:35:23,460 --> 00:35:30,380
what is a mental illness and making that analogy was was powerful and we just don't do that

521
00:35:30,380 --> 00:35:36,060
enough we don't tie we don't make it strong enough in our own people's minds that somebody

522
00:35:36,060 --> 00:35:40,940
was dealing with a mental health challenge it is a physical illness it is not a choice

523
00:35:40,940 --> 00:35:45,980
it is not a weakness no more than her diabetes no more than somebody's got high blood pressure

524
00:35:45,980 --> 00:35:51,140
or no more than somebody is unfortunately diagnosed with cancer it's something that

525
00:35:51,140 --> 00:35:57,100
ends up happening in their body and they need help and the more they resist that help the

526
00:35:57,100 --> 00:36:02,820
farther along the disease gets and in both the physical realm of cancer as well as in

527
00:36:02,820 --> 00:36:07,780
the physical realm of mental health you can get to the point of where your terminal and

528
00:36:07,780 --> 00:36:11,980
there is no help for you and either you're going to pass away from natural causes or

529
00:36:11,980 --> 00:36:19,740
you're going to accelerate the process yeah and what you hit on I agree 100% as far as

530
00:36:19,740 --> 00:36:24,180
you know entry into this profession and like you said the psych discussions are oh someone

531
00:36:24,180 --> 00:36:27,780
might try and be combative so you have to tie into the stretcher and here's some defensive

532
00:36:27,780 --> 00:36:33,220
tactics and you know there's no real you know discussion of that and one thing that I've

533
00:36:33,220 --> 00:36:39,500
seen having been fortunate enough to do four application processes for departments that

534
00:36:39,500 --> 00:36:46,980
I work for is I would do a crazy psych written test and I say crazy because it doesn't make

535
00:36:46,980 --> 00:36:51,020
any sense at all and I joke about this in other podcasts but it's true it's like you

536
00:36:51,020 --> 00:36:54,220
know do you like flowers do you like kittens do you like puppies do you like molesting

537
00:36:54,220 --> 00:36:58,500
kids do you like zebras like whoa whoa what you know but that's what it is and there's

538
00:36:58,500 --> 00:37:03,860
thousands of these questions and then the polygraph which is the biggest smoke and mirrors

539
00:37:03,860 --> 00:37:08,760
bullshit if anyone actually researches a polygraph it's a complete it's basically to fake you

540
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,140
out to get you to confess to something that's what it is I mean there's no other way around

541
00:37:12,140 --> 00:37:19,500
it and you take the money from those two ridiculous tests and you put that same money into everyone

542
00:37:19,500 --> 00:37:24,540
that you have said okay I think this is someone we want to hire and you put them through three

543
00:37:24,540 --> 00:37:30,340
five counseling sessions during orientation Academy whatever it is so firstly you get

544
00:37:30,340 --> 00:37:35,380
to offload trauma because it's Pat coming in who lost his dad almost took his own life

545
00:37:35,380 --> 00:37:39,980
at a graveside you're bringing in that trauma before you put that badge on your chest I've

546
00:37:39,980 --> 00:37:43,900
got people on here that have been molested as kids grew up in drug houses alcoholism

547
00:37:43,900 --> 00:37:49,740
I mean all these things so you're offloading stuff at the front door and you're now creating

548
00:37:49,740 --> 00:37:55,540
a rapport exactly like you said with a counselor who gets us so there's never the question

549
00:37:55,540 --> 00:38:00,100
like who am I going to talk to I know who I'm going to talk to Mrs. Stevens the lady

550
00:38:00,100 --> 00:38:05,140
that I you know spoke to when I first got hired and that I think is you know literally

551
00:38:05,140 --> 00:38:07,860
though I don't see how the budget would be any different if you're paying someone to

552
00:38:07,860 --> 00:38:14,420
do a polygraph and an entire psych evaluation turn that into just three or four counseling

553
00:38:14,420 --> 00:38:20,860
sessions so you have that rapport at the front door and then as a recipient you realize that

554
00:38:20,860 --> 00:38:25,180
that's normalized like from day one if you need to speak to someone you have this connection

555
00:38:25,180 --> 00:38:30,220
now I think and I think you the other thing you hit on it's really on the button is because

556
00:38:30,220 --> 00:38:35,780
you meet that person right on the front end you immediately there a rapport starts what

557
00:38:35,780 --> 00:38:41,140
one of the things I see was when an organization identifies yeah we got a hole here we got

558
00:38:41,140 --> 00:38:45,340
to take care of it all of a sudden there's you're bringing therapists in to do ride-alongs

559
00:38:45,340 --> 00:38:48,900
and you know how firefighters are immediately like okay which one of us here is nuts and

560
00:38:48,900 --> 00:38:53,600
who are they trying to get rid of I mean there's no no rapport there the poor person is up

561
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,920
against the wall they're the outsider and because again they weren't introduced as part

562
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:02,980
of the staff when you stood there in the orientation and went okay I might at some point need to

563
00:39:02,980 --> 00:39:07,900
go talk to her or and just as importantly and that's why that 13th life safety initiative

564
00:39:07,900 --> 00:39:12,420
is important when it talks about firefighters and their families need psychological support

565
00:39:12,420 --> 00:39:18,580
and if my wife needs to talk to somebody that's see that lady over there hon that's who we're

566
00:39:18,580 --> 00:39:23,700
gonna call so you've made the connection in the beginning in I've talked to chaplains

567
00:39:23,700 --> 00:39:27,900
that run into the same thing yeah they brought me in after a horrific event and we're like

568
00:39:27,900 --> 00:39:32,340
okay you're now our chaplain no training no no nothing about the culture not about that

569
00:39:32,340 --> 00:39:36,460
they had this horrible call or a line of duty it's like well okay just cuz you're a clergy

570
00:39:36,460 --> 00:39:39,740
you're supposed to be a mind reader and you're gonna fix everything's like no you haven't

571
00:39:39,740 --> 00:39:43,160
introduced this man or woman you have made them part of the team you haven't put it under

572
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:49,220
normal circumstances you haven't made that communication opportunity that says at some

573
00:39:49,220 --> 00:39:52,340
point you may want to talk to this person it may be because you want your kid to get

574
00:39:52,340 --> 00:39:57,700
baptized it may have nothing to do with anything traumatic but you know that's father so-and-so

575
00:39:57,700 --> 00:40:02,500
or that's minister so-and-so or whatever it is we don't do we don't see that as the leg

576
00:40:02,500 --> 00:40:07,940
of their journey somehow they're supposed to come out unscathed and it's just there

577
00:40:07,940 --> 00:40:12,040
isn't anybody I've ever talked to when I have a room of firefighters regardless of how many

578
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,100
years they've been on the job and I say I want you to close your eyes and I want you

579
00:40:15,100 --> 00:40:20,060
to go to one place you never want to go back to again and I say open your eyes not two

580
00:40:20,060 --> 00:40:25,020
seconds later and go every one of you just want some place and some of you went loads

581
00:40:25,020 --> 00:40:30,440
of places so I said we know this happens so why aren't we doing something about it that

582
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:35,500
says we're gonna make this more normal and try and treat it at the level when it occurs

583
00:40:35,500 --> 00:40:42,700
as opposed to when it becomes this huge issue and this huge physical illness that now is

584
00:40:42,700 --> 00:40:46,540
a struggle to try to get under control or struck try to eradicate.

585
00:40:46,540 --> 00:40:52,060
Yeah and I know when that that question that everyone dreads as a firefighter is you know

586
00:40:52,060 --> 00:40:57,060
what's the worst thing that you've seen and I've only got 14 career years under my belt

587
00:40:57,060 --> 00:41:02,180
so a fraction of what you've got but the answer isn't oh there's this thing it's like well

588
00:41:02,180 --> 00:41:07,740
which one there's a there's a rolodex of memories and I'm very fortunate I honestly think that

589
00:41:07,740 --> 00:41:12,700
between exercise and some other positive coping mechanisms that I've had in built for a long

590
00:41:12,700 --> 00:41:17,700
time this podcast is absolutely hands down therapy for me because I get to have discussions

591
00:41:17,700 --> 00:41:23,780
like this twice a week but you know if I allow my mind to go back then I mean again which

592
00:41:23,780 --> 00:41:28,780
one you know be more specific tell me tell me what you want to you know hear about horrific

593
00:41:28,780 --> 00:41:33,540
with children with you know with burns with decapitations and I'll give you I'll give

594
00:41:33,540 --> 00:41:38,540
you answers for all of those and you know I'm like I said mid-career in the fire service

595
00:41:38,540 --> 00:41:43,180
so there's people that have you know done double the service I've done done you know

596
00:41:43,180 --> 00:41:48,220
probably even higher call loads you know in in eras of history where there was a lot more

597
00:41:48,220 --> 00:41:55,740
trauma violence whatever it was so to to act like a first responder a doctor a mortician

598
00:41:55,740 --> 00:42:02,100
you know a dispatcher is not going to be affected by these is is the true insanity of this whole

599
00:42:02,100 --> 00:42:07,540
thing the true mental health you know question and and the same way as we need to hold our

600
00:42:07,540 --> 00:42:12,020
fitness standards high we need to hold our mental standards high and that means creating

601
00:42:12,020 --> 00:42:17,880
an environment for us to you know to select mentally and physically resilient men and

602
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:21,900
women at the front door but then create an environment for them to thrive through their

603
00:42:21,900 --> 00:42:28,580
career not beat them down with understaffing insane work weeks and and you know no fitness

604
00:42:28,580 --> 00:42:31,340
standards and no mental health.

605
00:42:31,340 --> 00:42:36,300
Now I had to smile when you were talking about the polygraphs and the psychologicals because

606
00:42:36,300 --> 00:42:40,860
I when I came on the job you got it you had a psychological and then when I went for promotion

607
00:42:40,860 --> 00:42:44,580
as lieutenant I got another psychological and then when I went promotion as a deputy

608
00:42:44,580 --> 00:42:49,060
chief I got another psychological and after that when I finally said okay when I came

609
00:42:49,060 --> 00:42:54,100
in here I was saying so if I'm this third psychological you show that I'm in balanced

610
00:42:54,100 --> 00:42:57,660
it's a duty disability because I was just fine when I came in the door and I go now

611
00:42:57,660 --> 00:43:01,940
you're sending me through these stupid things that says that I can't do it anymore and my

612
00:43:01,940 --> 00:43:07,100
mom used to actually my degree from college is in psychology and she used to go with her

613
00:43:07,100 --> 00:43:11,220
deep Irish brogue what a waste of money that was intelligent people run out of burning

614
00:43:11,220 --> 00:43:13,700
buildings and you go in.

615
00:43:13,700 --> 00:43:20,100
So it's so true if you look at what are you doing to people and you get them prepared

616
00:43:20,100 --> 00:43:25,860
for what they're going to face and find out what exactly I brought that pain with me

617
00:43:25,860 --> 00:43:32,540
that the second call I ever had in my career was a young mom who hung herself and we were

618
00:43:32,540 --> 00:43:38,700
there the day before same address for a woman choking and it was this woman choking on a

619
00:43:38,700 --> 00:43:43,900
sandwich in hindsight what ended up happening was she was trying to make it look like she

620
00:43:43,900 --> 00:43:48,940
accidentally died and her sister found her and so the next day she hung herself and I

621
00:43:48,940 --> 00:43:55,020
remember vividly down the stairs into that basement running through the door and seeing

622
00:43:55,020 --> 00:43:59,780
this poor woman hanging I vividly remember the brown paneling the three pictures of her

623
00:43:59,780 --> 00:44:05,460
kids because when she was long gone I remember there was a stool right next to her she could

624
00:44:05,460 --> 00:44:11,420
have saved herself at any point and she had her fist clenched like I am not going to finish

625
00:44:11,420 --> 00:44:16,580
I'm not going to stop finishing this this time I'm going to make it but I can honestly

626
00:44:16,580 --> 00:44:22,340
tell you that day I was as angry as I could be I had a brand new baby our first child

627
00:44:22,340 --> 00:44:28,100
the kids are on their way home from school and I'm going you selfish sob what what could

628
00:44:28,100 --> 00:44:34,020
be so bad that you would do this again one of some everything happens for a reason it

629
00:44:34,020 --> 00:44:39,580
was like right Pat think back now about how'd you feel at 14 and what was she going through

630
00:44:39,580 --> 00:44:44,260
and found out later that there was incredible numbers of trauma in her life and I really

631
00:44:44,260 --> 00:44:50,420
do think in her mind that day she thought her kids would be better off without her in

632
00:44:50,420 --> 00:44:55,180
but being exposed to it what it did having already been down that road just magnified

633
00:44:55,180 --> 00:44:59,860
everything but there was no discussion afterwards other than she was what a loser and everybody

634
00:44:59,860 --> 00:45:04,900
just moved on and but nobody moved on all three of us on that call had little kids all

635
00:45:04,900 --> 00:45:10,620
three of us on that call had wonderful spouses and it was like we didn't even talk about

636
00:45:10,620 --> 00:45:16,460
not a word at the table everyone on after that yeah and then that's the problem is at

637
00:45:16,460 --> 00:45:20,980
that table they were probably within your crew at least people that that were thinking

638
00:45:20,980 --> 00:45:25,460
about suicide you know that was struggling mentally you you'd obviously had your experience

639
00:45:25,460 --> 00:45:29,780
at 14 years old so that's the sad thing is that the internal monologue of all the people

640
00:45:29,780 --> 00:45:34,780
around the table was probably very different than what was verbalized and I think we could

641
00:45:34,780 --> 00:45:41,460
have learned a lot her her life loss would not have been something that was just a throwaway

642
00:45:41,460 --> 00:45:46,460
there could have been a tremendous lesson learned there if nothing else than to provide

643
00:45:46,460 --> 00:45:51,140
the empathy at that table so if somebody else down the road a year two years three years

644
00:45:51,140 --> 00:45:55,620
ten years from then was feeling that kind of desperation go we talked about that how

645
00:45:55,620 --> 00:46:01,420
could a mom ever get to a point where she would leave her children so so opposite of

646
00:46:01,420 --> 00:46:04,860
what that mother's instinct is well now you're sitting at the table going well I'm really

647
00:46:04,860 --> 00:46:08,340
thinking about killing myself and I got a wonderful wife and four kids and a grand

648
00:46:08,340 --> 00:46:13,580
kid on the way and okay I get it I remember this woman I got it I gotta go for help we

649
00:46:13,580 --> 00:46:17,780
talked about this well we didn't we didn't talk about it we missed that opportunity

650
00:46:17,780 --> 00:46:23,340
yeah yeah and the thing you gotta you gotta pull back the lens as well and and reverse

651
00:46:23,340 --> 00:46:29,000
the question like how terrifying must it be to be about to take your life and again Kevin

652
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:33,740
Hines mentions is the moment he stepped off the Golden Gate Bridge he regretted it he

653
00:46:33,740 --> 00:46:37,940
was one of you know I think it's single digits of people that have ever survived and he spent

654
00:46:37,940 --> 00:46:43,980
his life now telling a story but you know it must be absolutely terrifying so why are

655
00:46:43,980 --> 00:46:48,260
we having so many people that are getting to this point and certainly in our profession

656
00:46:48,260 --> 00:46:53,020
it seems to be increasing the military it seems to be increasing wildland firefighting

657
00:46:53,020 --> 00:46:57,900
you know then and so what are these elements that are getting these people even that you

658
00:46:57,900 --> 00:47:02,380
mentioned the religion I mean that's thing that very recently I realized there are people

659
00:47:02,380 --> 00:47:08,900
who truly believe that they were most likely going to go to hell if they do this that is

660
00:47:08,900 --> 00:47:14,420
a sin and they still would rather take that risk than live the hell that they're living

661
00:47:14,420 --> 00:47:18,860
now you know so that's what we should be asking we should be having these discussions and

662
00:47:18,860 --> 00:47:22,940
then saying what the hell are we doing wrong why are we having so many people that's so

663
00:47:22,940 --> 00:47:28,060
deeply depressed and not even mentioning you know that the tip of the iceberg is suicide

664
00:47:28,060 --> 00:47:32,260
the bulk of the iceberg is the drug addiction and the alcoholism and the porn addiction

665
00:47:32,260 --> 00:47:36,700
and the domestic violence and all these other manifestations of mental health that we're

666
00:47:36,700 --> 00:47:42,540
not even really discussing yeah I think and I really do think it's that like that caught

667
00:47:42,540 --> 00:47:45,860
in the phone booth thing is it right you go into the phone booth you put on the cape you

668
00:47:45,860 --> 00:47:52,740
come out save the day but we only spend like 1% of our life total between professional

669
00:47:52,740 --> 00:47:56,660
and personal where you're out of the phone booth you spend the other 99% in the phone

670
00:47:56,660 --> 00:48:03,780
booth and we don't talk about those coping skills at all we don't we're really expecting

671
00:48:03,780 --> 00:48:07,940
our folks to be like made of concrete and you're always going to be successful you're

672
00:48:07,940 --> 00:48:11,020
going to be successful in this department you're going to be successful in your personal

673
00:48:11,020 --> 00:48:15,860
life you're not going to have any and anybody who's ever been married realizes that it is

674
00:48:15,860 --> 00:48:20,620
it is work is not what you see in a movie if you have a successful relationship there

675
00:48:20,620 --> 00:48:25,140
are bumps in the road that you have to both be committed to work through it's the same

676
00:48:25,140 --> 00:48:29,740
thing in your career something you love just like you love your spouse you are going to

677
00:48:29,740 --> 00:48:34,340
go through bumps in how what's the communication chain in order to be able to work through

678
00:48:34,340 --> 00:48:39,460
that every freaking line of duty that report that you read the number one issue always

679
00:48:39,460 --> 00:48:43,820
that cited I don't care what it is talks about communication communication communication

680
00:48:43,820 --> 00:48:48,100
and yet when we get to this topic we shut it down we turn off the frequency we don't

681
00:48:48,100 --> 00:48:53,340
even turn the damn radio on we're not going down this road and I really believe it's not

682
00:48:53,340 --> 00:48:59,740
because the leadership the fire service in general doesn't care it's because it scares

683
00:48:59,740 --> 00:49:03,700
the hell out of us and we haven't looked into it enough to know what to do so instead we

684
00:49:03,700 --> 00:49:08,820
look the other way going it'll go away it'll go away it's like no it's constantly following

685
00:49:08,820 --> 00:49:13,780
you and eventually that hammer it's got gets bigger and bigger and it can crush you and

686
00:49:13,780 --> 00:49:19,900
as leaders when you talk about everyone goes home never leave a brother or sister we have

687
00:49:19,900 --> 00:49:24,180
to widen what that definition means it and you talk about physical fitness earlier and

688
00:49:24,180 --> 00:49:30,060
you're absolutely right on the button is we we now realize how important it is to do physical

689
00:49:30,060 --> 00:49:35,180
fitness to what level you can do it in your organization whatever you got to do something

690
00:49:35,180 --> 00:49:40,140
something's better than nothing and it's the same thing and the mental health continuum

691
00:49:40,140 --> 00:49:45,140
is do something have something available we don't have any money we don't have the resources

692
00:49:45,140 --> 00:49:50,940
when I mean 80% of the fire service is volunteer we never get that in this country is that

693
00:49:50,940 --> 00:49:54,820
the major metropolitan areas yeah we're very blessed to have full-time fire departments

694
00:49:54,820 --> 00:50:00,580
but most people have a volunteer organization in they don't have any money and they don't

695
00:50:00,580 --> 00:50:04,180
certainly have any AP program and so it's like okay well we won't do anything we'll

696
00:50:04,180 --> 00:50:11,380
know maybe it's even a stronger push for you because as one chief said to me realize chief

697
00:50:11,380 --> 00:50:17,940
in our little community when the cape doesn't work and we lose a child we go to the wake

698
00:50:17,940 --> 00:50:23,980
and we go to the funeral and then we see that mom for the rest of our lives and all it keeps

699
00:50:23,980 --> 00:50:30,900
telling us is we didn't make a difference what we signed up to do we failed and there's

700
00:50:30,900 --> 00:50:36,880
no way for them to process it and my suggestion has always been have you reached out to even

701
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:41,120
your local high school counselors and go is any counselor willing to just sit with us

702
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:45,820
and talk about what we do for a living and kind of get a feel that anybody any of the

703
00:50:45,820 --> 00:50:51,680
ministers any church I don't care what denomination anybody is do you have a counselor who does

704
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:55,620
that professionally in your community might volunteer find somebody don't give me an excuse

705
00:50:55,620 --> 00:51:00,740
you don't have it you got to go seek it out because there are people who legitimately

706
00:51:00,740 --> 00:51:07,980
want to help us but we just find excuses because it's complicated and once you kick the door

707
00:51:07,980 --> 00:51:13,340
open and you say you're going to tackle this animal it's got an awful lot of tentacles

708
00:51:13,340 --> 00:51:18,700
and it's just like there's not one kind of cancer there's not one kind of mental health

709
00:51:18,700 --> 00:51:23,780
challenge and so trying to provide the best you can nobody's ever going to have the perfect

710
00:51:23,780 --> 00:51:31,280
model you couldn't do everything 100% correct for your people for your kids for your spouse

711
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:37,140
for you and can still end up taking your life that people need to know that that that happens

712
00:51:37,140 --> 00:51:43,260
there are people with terminal mental illnesses but you can make a difference you can I use

713
00:51:43,260 --> 00:51:48,300
a movie clip when I'm talking sometimes and I am I am kind of a sucker for sappy movies

714
00:51:48,300 --> 00:51:53,900
and especially sports movies and I use a clip from the natural and in the whole story is

715
00:51:53,900 --> 00:51:58,260
about a guy who makes a bad decision a tremendous athlete and has to pay for it and almost loses

716
00:51:58,260 --> 00:52:02,620
his dream he loses the girl he was in love with in the beginning because of making this

717
00:52:02,620 --> 00:52:08,900
bad decision and later on in the movie when he's struggling she shows up at a game and

718
00:52:08,900 --> 00:52:12,100
James I've watched this movie no kidding I'm embarrassed to tell you I've probably seen

719
00:52:12,100 --> 00:52:20,220
it a hundred times and it wasn't until my wife passed from cancer that I watched this

720
00:52:20,220 --> 00:52:27,500
movie and there's a scene where he's struggling and the heroine in it stands up I've seen

721
00:52:27,500 --> 00:52:33,500
it a hundred times but this time I saw it for she was in all right the crowd was very

722
00:52:33,500 --> 00:52:39,620
negative all sitting there was this bright light behind her like she was an angel and

723
00:52:39,620 --> 00:52:44,100
he looks back into the stands kind of distracted and sees her doesn't recognize who it is

724
00:52:44,100 --> 00:52:50,100
but just sees this silhouette of this one single person standing in his halo and he

725
00:52:50,100 --> 00:52:53,900
obviously gets home run it breaks the clock it does all sorts of theatrical things but

726
00:52:53,900 --> 00:53:00,140
later in the movie is what struck me he said to her why did you stand up that day and she

727
00:53:00,140 --> 00:53:06,700
said because I didn't want to see you fail and that's the key is if we stand for people

728
00:53:06,700 --> 00:53:11,580
who are struggling we give them a chance that there's hope that we don't want to see them

729
00:53:11,580 --> 00:53:14,540
fail does that mean because she stood up well he happened to hit the clock he could have

730
00:53:14,540 --> 00:53:18,900
struck out too it doesn't mean that you stand up you're gonna save everybody but it gives

731
00:53:18,900 --> 00:53:25,260
somebody looking into the stands of life that hope that you are going to provide the light

732
00:53:25,260 --> 00:53:28,980
that there's still a way to get out of this there's still a way to get better there's

733
00:53:28,980 --> 00:53:34,340
still a way to get help and you again we're back to that I've normalized what you're feeling

734
00:53:34,340 --> 00:53:40,060
and here's the path you need to go to try and get better yeah and that's that's a I

735
00:53:40,060 --> 00:53:44,500
think the the challenge for the for us the fire service and obviously every other group

736
00:53:44,500 --> 00:53:50,460
of people that are listening is this it's a double-edged sword we need obviously to

737
00:53:50,460 --> 00:53:56,180
create an environment that people are comfortable to reach out for and we need to watch and

738
00:53:56,180 --> 00:54:01,540
I think that so many of us that kind of become more aware of the mental health side look

739
00:54:01,540 --> 00:54:07,100
back and go man that guy that was always an asshole I never even crossed my mind that

740
00:54:07,100 --> 00:54:10,860
maybe he was going through something you know and I know when I went through divorce I was

741
00:54:10,860 --> 00:54:14,780
going through divorce I was a single dad going through paramedic school working in one of

742
00:54:14,780 --> 00:54:20,220
the busiest rescues in Orange County and there were days when I was ready to kill someone

743
00:54:20,220 --> 00:54:24,340
you know and it's not that I'm a bad person you know but it was all that stress and I

744
00:54:24,340 --> 00:54:29,420
was never at a you know a self-harm point but you know we have to create an environment

745
00:54:29,420 --> 00:54:33,520
rather than making fun of that person or like you said trying to get rid of them firstly

746
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:37,540
say are you okay and then but say it twice you know like you said you okay now I'm good

747
00:54:37,540 --> 00:54:42,660
no seriously sit down here's what I've been going through recently open the door be vulnerable

748
00:54:42,660 --> 00:54:46,240
and then then then you know hopefully they will reach out and then the other side is

749
00:54:46,240 --> 00:54:52,220
obviously then in that environment the people hurting also have to have the courage to to

750
00:54:52,220 --> 00:54:56,300
reach out as well but those go hand in hand and without one you're never going to get

751
00:54:56,300 --> 00:54:57,300
the other.

752
00:54:57,300 --> 00:55:03,240
No I agree and they will watch to see how other people are treated if you truly have

753
00:55:03,240 --> 00:55:08,500
a welcoming environment to the whole issue of mental health they will see people like

754
00:55:08,500 --> 00:55:12,500
our buddy Mikey who put his medication on the table they will see people who will become

755
00:55:12,500 --> 00:55:17,420
role models and go hey in this organization this is no different than any other illness

756
00:55:17,420 --> 00:55:22,420
that somebody's got and I do my job is there any are there any other questions and they

757
00:55:22,420 --> 00:55:27,940
then will be encouraged to go okay there aren't these ramifications that people like to make

758
00:55:27,940 --> 00:55:32,780
up about you'll never get promoted people will find out you'll get drummed off the job

759
00:55:32,780 --> 00:55:37,500
instead it's like no I need to do something about this now because I don't want to get

760
00:55:37,500 --> 00:55:42,380
to that point down the road where I am so angry and a great example you gave and I appreciate

761
00:55:42,380 --> 00:55:48,180
you sharing that but your own journey is when I've done my son's talk a number of times

762
00:55:48,180 --> 00:55:52,180
I'll have people come up afterwards and literally just had one happen recently where chief said

763
00:55:52,180 --> 00:55:56,220
to me you know I've got a guy up on charges and I was getting ready to can't because he's

764
00:55:56,220 --> 00:56:01,420
just had been a pain in our ass for the last 10 years and he goes I now realize from what

765
00:56:01,420 --> 00:56:06,820
you've said that I think he's just got a lot of demons he's struggling with and if nothing

766
00:56:06,820 --> 00:56:12,540
else we're gonna try first and if it turns out that he is just a cancer and shouldn't

767
00:56:12,540 --> 00:56:16,540
be here then I'll go through with what I want to but he goes I was gonna do that without

768
00:56:16,540 --> 00:56:20,220
doing any more of the homework and I need to do more homework and I so I think you're

769
00:56:20,220 --> 00:56:26,280
absolutely right is we don't look beyond the surface because we don't understand what's

770
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:30,500
underneath the surface and it scares us to death so we don't we don't take the lid off

771
00:56:30,500 --> 00:56:33,960
we just we just take the whole can and throw it in the garbage and move on it's like we

772
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:39,020
lose so many people that way I think good people in the service and sometimes when you

773
00:56:39,020 --> 00:56:44,360
throw that can away the person then throws their life away and we we we have we haven't

774
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:50,980
looked enough and hard enough about how do we try to keep people in our own service who

775
00:56:50,980 --> 00:56:58,620
have these illnesses and are still incredibly productive and powerful parts of our profession.

776
00:56:58,620 --> 00:57:03,620
Yeah and then I talk about this a lot with the diamond you know that the drill ground

777
00:57:03,620 --> 00:57:07,620
when when you have the orientation when your new hires are standing there you know they

778
00:57:07,620 --> 00:57:13,100
are mentally and physically resilient men and women you know all in all like you said

779
00:57:13,100 --> 00:57:19,080
apart from the turd that got in but the rest of them but you know fast forward 10 years

780
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:23,340
you know they say they say that some of them are obese some of them like you said are crabby

781
00:57:23,340 --> 00:57:27,140
as hell what did they walk in that first day and said I'm gonna I'm gonna work for two

782
00:57:27,140 --> 00:57:32,100
three years and then just start to be an asshole no so there's there's obviously an effect

783
00:57:32,100 --> 00:57:37,100
of this job some people just are lucky enough to have that environment for me I always say

784
00:57:37,100 --> 00:57:41,500
this I had a glimmin idyllic childhood my parents got divorced was 18 so I got to go

785
00:57:41,500 --> 00:57:46,060
through my entire childhood first without you know having to deal with that but I grew

786
00:57:46,060 --> 00:57:50,580
up on a farm in England you know it was when my dad was a veterinarian I got to see you

787
00:57:50,580 --> 00:57:55,300
know had compassion with animals and all these amazing things so my entry in there really

788
00:57:55,300 --> 00:58:01,620
didn't bring much trauma with it at all you know but again the other guy that maybe had

789
00:58:01,620 --> 00:58:07,580
prior military service maybe you know again he lost his father whatever it was it might

790
00:58:07,580 --> 00:58:11,920
take a few years for that to manifest when you add on the sleep deprivation the things

791
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:17,580
that we start seeing and so physically we need to understand this person just didn't

792
00:58:17,580 --> 00:58:22,220
want to get fat you know and mentally it's the same thing these are warning signs for

793
00:58:22,220 --> 00:58:28,540
us to go firstly these people need help and secondly is our environment creating people

794
00:58:28,540 --> 00:58:34,100
a condition for people to thrive or maybe we should we look at the way we're doing things

795
00:58:34,100 --> 00:58:38,660
are we overworking our people you know is that the understaffing affecting these people

796
00:58:38,660 --> 00:58:45,480
mentally physically you know and and and actually reverse engineer your department and say how

797
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:49,220
can we do this better because if you've got a bunch of people that are for 10 years of

798
00:58:49,220 --> 00:58:54,100
falling apart physically and or mentally then that's part of the machine that you got to

799
00:58:54,100 --> 00:58:55,100
look at too.

800
00:58:55,100 --> 00:58:59,340
It's it and it's funny it just hit me and I haven't thought of this story in a long

801
00:58:59,340 --> 00:59:04,580
time but I did I did a talk in the UK and I was just sitting around with a bunch of

802
00:59:04,580 --> 00:59:10,340
chiefs leaders out there and and after I was done they said you know we check in on our

803
00:59:10,340 --> 00:59:16,380
folks literally our our our company officer will sit around the table for he started going

804
00:59:16,380 --> 00:59:21,020
well how's everybody doing where were we at and if somebody's wife is very ill or is just

805
00:59:21,020 --> 00:59:25,980
coming off surgery or whatever that person may not be driving that day that they were

806
00:59:25,980 --> 00:59:28,500
slotted for that but they're not going to drive that day because their heads not there

807
00:59:28,500 --> 00:59:34,300
or we may go as your head here even enough to be here and I looked at him and I have

808
00:59:34,300 --> 00:59:38,300
to tell you I looked at him I said so you do that every day for everybody who's sitting

809
00:59:38,300 --> 00:59:44,620
there and said yeah it's a 10 second check-in I go if you did that in the United States

810
00:59:44,620 --> 00:59:49,260
if four guys on a shift decided it was nice day to play golf they might all have an issue

811
00:59:49,260 --> 00:59:53,540
and all of a sudden they're on the tee somewhere I go it's a little it's different and it but

812
00:59:53,540 --> 00:59:58,740
it it doesn't need to be different it's it's because we've set that up to go well no it's

813
00:59:58,740 --> 01:00:05,340
not meant to be an excuse and it's not meant to be a way to abuse a system it's a way to

814
01:00:05,340 --> 01:00:11,900
use the system so that you are not put in a really difficult position of making a decision

815
01:00:11,900 --> 01:00:17,740
to come to work that day when you're not ready to protect yourself the people you work with

816
01:00:17,740 --> 01:00:23,100
or the people that you respond to and I think that there is your guy who comes in very crabby

817
01:00:23,100 --> 01:00:27,260
or the opposite the guy who's normally very engaged and all of a sudden is kind of a rec

818
01:00:27,260 --> 01:00:31,220
loose doesn't talk to anybody doesn't watch TV doesn't you know sitting on the upper ass

819
01:00:31,220 --> 01:00:36,060
floor by himself he's just trying to make it through a 24-hour tour well it shouldn't

820
01:00:36,060 --> 01:00:39,700
be that way I mean somebody comes in they got a hundred and two fever and a coffin all

821
01:00:39,700 --> 01:00:43,740
over the place you send them home because like you need some rest you need some recovery

822
01:00:43,740 --> 01:00:49,060
I appreciate you came here but you need to go we don't have somebody walk in and we see

823
01:00:49,060 --> 01:00:52,500
symptoms and do something about it because we don't know what the hell those symptoms

824
01:00:52,500 --> 01:00:58,300
mean we haven't been trained in it and so we become fearful so we avoid it and we let

825
01:00:58,300 --> 01:01:01,900
that person just kind of do their own time just having a bad day really that's six months

826
01:01:01,900 --> 01:01:06,980
of a bad day I've never had a bad day before you're not even investigating it you're not

827
01:01:06,980 --> 01:01:11,860
offering some kind of help or even just that courage to go are you okay and I really like

828
01:01:11,860 --> 01:01:19,500
what you said about being consistent and insistent with them is to keep asking okay he said it

829
01:01:19,500 --> 01:01:23,940
was he said it was okay no no no no is there anything I can do for you yeah I'm fine is

830
01:01:23,940 --> 01:01:27,660
there anything you can do I just hit a chief Jim Grady who's the executive director of

831
01:01:27,660 --> 01:01:31,420
the Illinois Fire Chief somebody have an incredible amount of respect for his leader who said

832
01:01:31,420 --> 01:01:34,780
I had a guy one day and he goes I knew something was wrong and he said I went up to him and

833
01:01:34,780 --> 01:01:39,100
says there anything I can do for you goes no I'm good chief says there anything no really

834
01:01:39,100 --> 01:01:42,820
you're not yourselves or anything I can do for you I'm good chief I'm gonna go get a

835
01:01:42,820 --> 01:01:47,740
cup of coffee and when I come back from the kitchen we are gonna talk or we're gonna take

836
01:01:47,740 --> 01:01:52,740
a ride it's gonna be one of the two and went and got his cup of coffee came back and found

837
01:01:52,740 --> 01:01:57,300
out that his wife had filed divorce papers that morning without him knowing it because

838
01:01:57,300 --> 01:02:03,180
of the insistence and the caring this man open who knows where this would have gone

839
01:02:03,180 --> 01:02:07,260
I don't know not saying this person would have gotten suicidal or whatever but maybe

840
01:02:07,260 --> 01:02:11,740
but because somebody was not going to take no for an answer and there I really believe

841
01:02:11,740 --> 01:02:18,740
that little voice inside of you is a powerful source of intuition as well as I think where

842
01:02:18,740 --> 01:02:25,240
you get things from way beyond who's inside of you things other spirits and I have a great

843
01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:28,540
faith and I really believe sometimes those little angels getting your and go this guy's

844
01:02:28,540 --> 01:02:32,660
in trouble you need to do something about it even if you're not sure what you should

845
01:02:32,660 --> 01:02:37,420
do it because I'm telling you he's in trouble and trusting that to go I'm not gonna take

846
01:02:37,420 --> 01:02:41,540
the little answer and be okay with it because then I checked the box that I checked in on

847
01:02:41,540 --> 01:02:46,140
the person which is what a lot of times ends up happening when people have it as employee

848
01:02:46,140 --> 01:02:50,780
assistance program it's like okay well I gave them the AP card I knew they were in trouble

849
01:02:50,780 --> 01:02:54,980
I gave him an AP card well that's just frickin wonderful that's you and really that's gonna

850
01:02:54,980 --> 01:02:58,940
be enough do you know where your AP is do you know what they know about your fire department

851
01:02:58,940 --> 01:03:03,260
do you know the insurance limitations you get some man or woman who is courageous enough

852
01:03:03,260 --> 01:03:07,860
to seek out the AP and they do three visits and they end up connected to that counselor

853
01:03:07,860 --> 01:03:10,860
in there like whoa I'm starting to feel better and then the counselor has to go well yeah

854
01:03:10,860 --> 01:03:14,180
that's the end of your visit so now you need to see a private counselor and it's gonna

855
01:03:14,180 --> 01:03:18,500
cost a hundred dollars as a copay and then blah blah blah you don't even know that all

856
01:03:18,500 --> 01:03:23,260
you do is hand them a card now you've gotten them halfway through their antibiotics to

857
01:03:23,260 --> 01:03:26,140
get better and they're feeling better and they quit taking the prescription what happens

858
01:03:26,140 --> 01:03:31,700
it comes back with a vengeance the disease well the mental health is a disease and it

859
01:03:31,700 --> 01:03:37,740
comes back because you didn't do enough to make sure that the system was comprehensive

860
01:03:37,740 --> 01:03:43,120
and you were a part of it and I really do think that people run out of energy that there

861
01:03:43,120 --> 01:03:47,500
are I think we're spread thin on all the things that we we do in our profession and you're

862
01:03:47,500 --> 01:03:52,060
spread thin on all the things that you got to deal with it in life but that's not an

863
01:03:52,060 --> 01:03:56,900
excuse to go I'm gonna back away from something that could end up being fatal if you saw a

864
01:03:56,900 --> 01:04:00,860
wall at a fire that was structurally unsafe you get everybody out of the collapse zone

865
01:04:00,860 --> 01:04:05,580
we don't get people mentally out of the collapse zone we just don't make that that as much

866
01:04:05,580 --> 01:04:10,940
of a priority as we have to yeah I couldn't agree more you talked earlier about having

867
01:04:10,940 --> 01:04:16,380
your first son so I'd love to steer the conversation now towards you know fatherhood and then you

868
01:04:16,380 --> 01:04:24,180
know obviously your your son Sean's path after that yeah I was very blessed we had three

869
01:04:24,180 --> 01:04:30,100
boys Brendan Patrick and Sean no Anthony's in there all that the good Irish strong names

870
01:04:30,100 --> 01:04:36,780
and Sean being my my youngest and definitely of the personality traits in the family the

871
01:04:36,780 --> 01:04:41,900
one that I had envisioned being a firefighter my my oldest guy used to joke about the fact

872
01:04:41,900 --> 01:04:45,300
that he saw me be a fire chiefs like yeah I don't I don't really want to push papers

873
01:04:45,300 --> 01:04:50,320
for the rest of my life so now I don't really want to do that my middle guy incredible heart

874
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:54,740
also but said yeah blood makes me kind of nauseous including my own so I don't think

875
01:04:54,740 --> 01:05:00,740
I can do that Sean was definitely the one that I would have I because of his heart and

876
01:05:00,740 --> 01:05:05,420
strength and character that I thought well okay this if somebody's gonna follow my footsteps

877
01:05:05,420 --> 01:05:10,500
gonna be him well at the age of five Sean was diagnosed with clinical depression and

878
01:05:10,500 --> 01:05:15,060
I didn't know you could have depression at five I thought you could be upset about you

879
01:05:15,060 --> 01:05:20,020
you didn't get a bowl of ice cream or you got grounded or whatever but my wife Eileen

880
01:05:20,020 --> 01:05:25,940
who was always the smartest one in the in our pairing she noticed that he was coloring

881
01:05:25,940 --> 01:05:31,660
everything in black never used any other color crayons also back then velcro shoes were a

882
01:05:31,660 --> 01:05:37,740
big deal and he literally before he would go to kindergarten would do each shoe 50 to

883
01:05:37,740 --> 01:05:43,580
100 times if you interrupted that cycle he would have what I consider to temper tantrum

884
01:05:43,580 --> 01:05:51,920
what we know now was an anxiety attack so she took him to psychiatrist now I'm fire

885
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:57,020
chief of an organization I'm big in the leadership you know I'm where the Cape saved the day

886
01:05:57,020 --> 01:06:00,420
it's like okay you got a five-year-old's got they have to go to a psychologist I did I

887
01:06:00,420 --> 01:06:06,620
kind of blew it off and she went and he was diagnosed said yeah this kid's clinically

888
01:06:06,620 --> 01:06:12,260
depressed so so you're starting medication at five and therapy on a regular basis at

889
01:06:12,260 --> 01:06:17,160
five and honestly I went along with it because I was like okay well this makes honey this

890
01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:21,460
makes you feel better and you think this is what needs to be that's good and I got I got

891
01:06:21,460 --> 01:06:27,160
people to save so we're good it wasn't until junior high which as everybody knows when

892
01:06:27,160 --> 01:06:32,100
you when you have children in junior high with the hormonal change it's a it's a rough

893
01:06:32,100 --> 01:06:36,200
ride for everybody but when you have a child that's got mental health struggles it really

894
01:06:36,200 --> 01:06:41,540
ramps up and it at junior high at seventh grade he became that he was diagnosed with

895
01:06:41,540 --> 01:06:46,020
obsessive compulsive which I thought was you wash your hands too many times you turn off

896
01:06:46,020 --> 01:06:51,580
the light switch an extra time I didn't understand it and I didn't I didn't look into it enough

897
01:06:51,580 --> 01:06:57,420
and what it turns out in Sean's case was that it was these incredibly intrusive thoughts

898
01:06:57,420 --> 01:07:03,580
would come into his mind and so found a journal that he wrote in which he was literally counting

899
01:07:03,580 --> 01:07:08,940
how many times he was taking a breath as he was learning all these algebra formulas now

900
01:07:08,940 --> 01:07:13,500
if I tried to do that pass out I wouldn't even be able to do it and that's one of the

901
01:07:13,500 --> 01:07:18,900
misnomers about people who struggle with mental health challenges is they're dumb it's like

902
01:07:18,900 --> 01:07:25,380
no they're incredibly intelligent people they are people that just have this disease and

903
01:07:25,380 --> 01:07:30,700
these thoughts would come in and fight against him every single day of his life when he got

904
01:07:30,700 --> 01:07:39,180
to 14 and as we talked earlier before 14 big symbolic number for me he was getting ready

905
01:07:39,180 --> 01:07:42,780
to start freshman year high school and the day before he was going to start high school

906
01:07:42,780 --> 01:07:49,140
he said I can't do this anymore and I was like what do you mean you can't do it anymore

907
01:07:49,140 --> 01:07:52,300
you know your brothers are in the high school yet and you know people are gonna give you

908
01:07:52,300 --> 01:07:56,620
a hard time and that kind of goes with being a freshman and don't buy an elevator pass

909
01:07:56,620 --> 01:08:01,780
because there's no elevator and and my wife looked at me and said be quiet she said what

910
01:08:01,780 --> 01:08:08,900
do you mean Sean and he said I can't do the same where I don't want to live now I at that

911
01:08:08,900 --> 01:08:14,460
point was the chief of a wonderful fire department that was a one-station career department it

912
01:08:14,460 --> 01:08:18,860
was tiny enough that I knew everybody's significant other I knew all their kids birthdays and

913
01:08:18,860 --> 01:08:24,880
our kids all grew up together we had a hospital it was four blocks away and normally when

914
01:08:24,880 --> 01:08:28,400
we would get a mental health call it would be in the middle of the night it would come

915
01:08:28,400 --> 01:08:33,300
in sounding like a cardiac you'd get there and realize it was an anxiety attack you would

916
01:08:33,300 --> 01:08:37,180
transport the patient you would get to this hospital and they had a certain set of elevators

917
01:08:37,180 --> 01:08:41,260
that you would use you go up those elevators the fourth floor person would get off the

918
01:08:41,260 --> 01:08:45,720
gurney they go in a room take off all their private clothes so they didn't have any shoelaces

919
01:08:45,720 --> 01:08:50,540
or belts begin putting a gown and they would disappear behind this door then I felt like

920
01:08:50,540 --> 01:08:54,660
okay now they're in there with all the other losers we'd go back upset that we were out

921
01:08:54,660 --> 01:08:59,500
in the middle of the night gonna go home with little sleep many work in a second job and

922
01:08:59,500 --> 01:09:05,820
move on so I thought okay wait a minute I know how to fix this so I said Sean you realize

923
01:09:05,820 --> 01:09:09,260
if you're talking about that you're gonna take your life that I have a responsibility

924
01:09:09,260 --> 01:09:11,940
as your dad to take you to the hospital what they're gonna do is they're gonna put you

925
01:09:11,940 --> 01:09:17,460
in the hospital fully thinking that that would scare him into well this wasn't that big of

926
01:09:17,460 --> 01:09:23,580
a deal instead I got the first major learning lesson as a parent of what's not in the parent

927
01:09:23,580 --> 01:09:28,300
handbook he looked at me and he said I know dad let's go and got in the car and closed

928
01:09:28,300 --> 01:09:35,700
the door and I remember standing in the front of the car like oh my god got in the car drove

929
01:09:35,700 --> 01:09:40,500
to the hospital we took those elevators went up to the fourth floor Sean disappeared into

930
01:09:40,500 --> 01:09:44,800
that room came out in a gown and he disappeared behind that door except James there was a

931
01:09:44,800 --> 01:09:49,840
difference in that door that day for the first time in my life the people behind that door

932
01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:56,620
weren't losers anymore because my son was not a loser and so I saw moms doctors and

933
01:09:56,620 --> 01:10:03,460
lawyers and financial consultants and plumbers and people who just were ill but they were

934
01:10:03,460 --> 01:10:08,940
people they weren't losers and I was sick to my stomach the whole way we drove home

935
01:10:08,940 --> 01:10:13,620
and I don't think I was as sick to my stomach about the fact that I just put my 14 year

936
01:10:13,620 --> 01:10:19,420
old kid in a psych ward as I was thinking of all those people in my career I had labeled

937
01:10:19,420 --> 01:10:24,340
up to that point I didn't understand that they were part of a family and they truly

938
01:10:24,340 --> 01:10:30,780
were ill so we went all through high school up and down with various medications all sorts

939
01:10:30,780 --> 01:10:36,860
of different types of therapies you name it Sean tried it multiple suicide attempts and

940
01:10:36,860 --> 01:10:43,340
now we're at the end of high school and getting to senior year and we're in January and he

941
01:10:43,340 --> 01:10:51,740
comes to us and says they need help at this point we are emotionally and financially bankrupt

942
01:10:51,740 --> 01:10:56,280
and it's like Sean what the hell's kind of help could you need I we don't even know what

943
01:10:56,280 --> 01:11:02,460
to do for you anymore and he said taking drugs and I remember reacting and going you can't

944
01:11:02,460 --> 01:11:07,220
smoke that shit because you know it affects the medication you're on it can enhance it

945
01:11:07,220 --> 01:11:11,700
it can reduce it you can't do that so I'm not doing that you know what do you mean you're

946
01:11:11,700 --> 01:11:18,140
not doing that so I'm doing other stuff what other stuff are you doing well I'm doing coke

947
01:11:18,140 --> 01:11:24,500
and heroin now everybody can say that their mom was the best mom ever in the world and

948
01:11:24,500 --> 01:11:31,180
I'll agree with everybody for a tie but nobody was a better mom than my wife and they had

949
01:11:31,180 --> 01:11:37,620
an incredibly close relationship she was the love of his life and she had no clue we lived

950
01:11:37,620 --> 01:11:42,860
in this tiny house we bought a little bungalow that I eventually was hoping would we up size

951
01:11:42,860 --> 01:11:46,340
to a nicer house couldn't afford to do it because of all the struggles Sean had gone

952
01:11:46,340 --> 01:11:52,140
through and so there was no hiding in that house he was very close with his two brothers

953
01:11:52,140 --> 01:11:58,620
never saw it never saw it at all I said Sean why why in the hell would you do that he said

954
01:11:58,620 --> 01:12:06,340
dad for just that little moment I feel normal I feel like I get some relief but I'm here

955
01:12:06,340 --> 01:12:11,220
to tell you I know I can't go through life like this so I need help so we put him sent

956
01:12:11,220 --> 01:12:15,820
him to a rehab center that did dual diagnosis so they took care of the mental health along

957
01:12:15,820 --> 01:12:22,040
with the addiction and in many cases it's the chicken and the egg that many people self

958
01:12:22,040 --> 01:12:26,620
medicate and Sean was self-medicating to get away from those intrusive thoughts so he went

959
01:12:26,620 --> 01:12:30,780
into a 90-day program he was 18 years old he was in that he was the oldest one in the

960
01:12:30,780 --> 01:12:35,080
adolescent wing the only one that could sign himself out at any point and there were multiple

961
01:12:35,080 --> 01:12:40,980
times he wanted to but he didn't and he became like the dad of the wing and I remember them

962
01:12:40,980 --> 01:12:45,300
telling me one story of them bringing a child there where a mom did not tell the child she

963
01:12:45,300 --> 01:12:50,180
was bringing him to come in and end up in this institution and you can imagine what

964
01:12:50,180 --> 01:12:55,580
occurred in the parking lot they literally sent Sean out to talk to this kid and Sean

965
01:12:55,580 --> 01:13:00,220
talked him into coming into a place that Sean didn't want to be himself but knew that there

966
01:13:00,220 --> 01:13:05,900
was benefits and that you could get better and so he successfully completed the 90 days

967
01:13:05,900 --> 01:13:11,220
and we thought oh boy maybe we got a new lease on life here maybe this what was needed was

968
01:13:11,220 --> 01:13:17,700
a cleansing of him not only in terms of the addiction but a cleansing of his mind. He

969
01:13:17,700 --> 01:13:23,720
came out started graduated with a B from his high school graduation did not walk with his

970
01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:29,060
class because he did all of his the last quarter his class work in rehab didn't care about

971
01:13:29,060 --> 01:13:32,660
walking with them and I think was starting to already feel like I don't belong. We talked

972
01:13:32,660 --> 01:13:36,460
about that belong before I don't belong with that group I'm not they can't even relate

973
01:13:36,460 --> 01:13:42,180
to what I'm doing. Tried junior college and because of the obsessive compulsive would

974
01:13:42,180 --> 01:13:47,220
have the same period would take too many hours would end up going full tilt doing great and

975
01:13:47,220 --> 01:13:52,780
then just bottom out couldn't go to class. Work in part-time jobs work regular hours

976
01:13:52,780 --> 01:13:57,820
over hours holiday hours and all of a sudden couldn't keep the job it was just a pattern

977
01:13:57,820 --> 01:14:02,820
and another suicide attempt ensued and finally had to have the conversation that I never

978
01:14:02,820 --> 01:14:07,580
thought I would ever have to have with any of my kids and no training and no thought

979
01:14:07,580 --> 01:14:12,760
about and said Sean unless you can promise me that you won't try to take your life again

980
01:14:12,760 --> 01:14:18,580
you can't live here anymore. I go I can't have mom find you it would destroy her said

981
01:14:18,580 --> 01:14:22,660
so look me in the eye and tell me this isn't going to happen again and I can still picture

982
01:14:22,660 --> 01:14:29,140
his eyes and the sadness in his eyes and he goes I can't do that dad I can't. So we looked

983
01:14:29,140 --> 01:14:33,980
for a group home for him to move into where they would provide education there would be

984
01:14:33,980 --> 01:14:38,420
a counselor living there they would monitor their meds all nine yards and he didn't want

985
01:14:38,420 --> 01:14:43,860
to go in the worst way he loved being in his house he loved being with his mom. We were

986
01:14:43,860 --> 01:14:47,500
scheduled to go away for our 25th wedding anniversary and it was the first time that

987
01:14:47,500 --> 01:14:51,740
we were actually going to be able to go away we were going to go to Hawaii and we he knew

988
01:14:51,740 --> 01:14:55,620
and we knew it was contingent on him getting into this group home and it looked like it

989
01:14:55,620 --> 01:14:58,740
was all set we're in the middle of December everything's fine and all of a sudden with

990
01:14:58,740 --> 01:15:02,740
a week to go they went no it's not going to fly we got we don't have an opening so it'll

991
01:15:02,740 --> 01:15:08,620
be for a while which would have canceled our trip. He went and back then this is in the

992
01:15:08,620 --> 01:15:13,780
in the 90s early 90s he went got his brother to take him to the store went got a home fax

993
01:15:13,780 --> 01:15:20,140
machine set it up faxed a letter to the doctor saying I need clearance and I need you to

994
01:15:20,140 --> 01:15:24,700
make you this a priority to get me into this group home got a letter back from the doctor

995
01:15:24,700 --> 01:15:28,540
this during holidays back from the doctor sent the letter to the group home and all

996
01:15:28,540 --> 01:15:33,500
of a sudden we get confirmation right literally right as we're getting ready to go to the

997
01:15:33,500 --> 01:15:38,180
airport then yeah he'll be in tomorrow we got him in. This is the kind of heart this

998
01:15:38,180 --> 01:15:41,900
kid had so when you talk again about people with mental health struggles they're like

999
01:15:41,900 --> 01:15:46,380
well they're bad people they're out here bullshit they're not the great people and he was a

1000
01:15:46,380 --> 01:15:51,180
great kid to go to this extreme to go into something he didn't want to so he goes into

1001
01:15:51,180 --> 01:15:55,060
the group home he's in there for about three months and all of a sudden we get a call that

1002
01:15:55,060 --> 01:15:59,300
he's missing it's like what do you mean he's missing he was in your care well we don't

1003
01:15:59,300 --> 01:16:04,820
lock everybody down here it's not a jail and following morning we get a call from the local

1004
01:16:04,820 --> 01:16:09,980
hospital we have your son here we find he was found down unconscious we don't know how

1005
01:16:09,980 --> 01:16:14,100
long he was down but you need to get to the hospital right away so my wife and I shot

1006
01:16:14,100 --> 01:16:20,460
to the hospital and walked in and I know that look he was on a ventilator he was gray he

1007
01:16:20,460 --> 01:16:25,000
was aspirating around the ventilator and I'm like my god he's gone and I remember going

1008
01:16:25,000 --> 01:16:29,300
up and grabbing his hand sorry get a little emotional now I remember going up and grabbing

1009
01:16:29,300 --> 01:16:37,420
his hand and saying hey buddy you fought really hard it's time to go go it's okay go go go

1010
01:16:37,420 --> 01:16:44,300
someplace where it'll be safe you just got to get out of here my wife and I made the

1011
01:16:44,300 --> 01:16:50,980
phone calls you were handed the DNR papers do you want to sign these would you sign the

1012
01:16:50,980 --> 01:16:56,140
organ donor I mean it was just a flurry of like two hours of hell and finally it was

1013
01:16:56,140 --> 01:17:01,460
like my wife came from a huge family here I am an Irish Catholic only child and my wife

1014
01:17:01,460 --> 01:17:06,940
was Irish Catholic one of 13 so more than normal Irish Catholic family and it was how

1015
01:17:06,940 --> 01:17:12,220
are we gonna let everybody know to come say goodbye so he was taken up to ICU with the

1016
01:17:12,220 --> 01:17:15,940
thought everybody's gonna proceed in here and say goodbye and then we're gonna turn

1017
01:17:15,940 --> 01:17:21,580
off this ventilator and wait so that happened for the next 24 hours people coming in coming

1018
01:17:21,580 --> 01:17:27,060
in coming in coming in and finally as this sea of people seemed to be ending the doctor

1019
01:17:27,060 --> 01:17:32,180
came in he said I want you to tear up the DNR and I go why in hell would I do that said

1020
01:17:32,180 --> 01:17:36,220
because he's fighting he's trying we can see so we're gonna give him a chance like well

1021
01:17:36,220 --> 01:17:40,580
absolutely give me the pay do whatever you can do so for the next few days they were

1022
01:17:40,580 --> 01:17:43,580
like we're gonna try each day to take him off the ventilator and see if he can breathe

1023
01:17:43,580 --> 01:17:49,580
on his own tried it then work tried it then work tried it then work finally they said

1024
01:17:49,580 --> 01:17:54,260
we're gonna try one more time if that doesn't work then you'll have to find a place for

1025
01:17:54,260 --> 01:18:01,300
him and I'm like find a place for him like what like like this put him in some kind of

1026
01:18:01,300 --> 01:18:09,360
home on a ventilator at 20 years old this is what we're faced with yeah well it turns

1027
01:18:09,360 --> 01:18:14,540
out the next day was st. Patrick's Day now st. Patrick's Day in our family was like the

1028
01:18:14,540 --> 01:18:20,340
unbelievable holiday and our kids were spoiled on that everything was baked in green they

1029
01:18:20,340 --> 01:18:25,980
were dressed in green I hate to admit that they were better at pouring a green beer out

1030
01:18:25,980 --> 01:18:31,260
of a keg than they were at doing their homework here we were it's like st. Patrick's Day in

1031
01:18:31,260 --> 01:18:36,460
them like going okay so I walked into his room that morning and literally put up all

1032
01:18:36,460 --> 01:18:41,060
these decorations in the ICU and it was cute now wasn't that day but the nurse walked in

1033
01:18:41,060 --> 01:18:45,100
and she said tell her all these decorations for him like are you kidding me you don't

1034
01:18:45,100 --> 01:18:48,700
know today's a national holiday you know what the hell today is like in st. Patrick's Day

1035
01:18:48,700 --> 01:18:52,460
and she's like okay she walks on going oh my god this is gonna help take him off the

1036
01:18:52,460 --> 01:18:59,020
ventilator here we go so the time comes in so mr. fire chief mr. leader mr. where the

1037
01:18:59,020 --> 01:19:06,980
cape mr. save everybody else I was too afraid to stay in the room so I literally stood in

1038
01:19:06,980 --> 01:19:12,060
the hallway and my wife courageous of the two of us went in there and I and I had a

1039
01:19:12,060 --> 01:19:17,380
niece who was there that day visiting Sarah who said I'll go in with her here I am this

1040
01:19:17,380 --> 01:19:23,780
I'm his dad I had given my word when I got married to protect my wife which meant that

1041
01:19:23,780 --> 01:19:28,380
we were blessed to have children it was to protect my kids and I couldn't go in the room

1042
01:19:28,380 --> 01:19:32,900
and they went in there and I waited in the hallway and all of a sudden I heard this coughing

1043
01:19:32,900 --> 01:19:37,900
and I'm like I must be one of the nurses because I was so sure this was gonna be a life of

1044
01:19:37,900 --> 01:19:41,900
where he'd be on a ventilator and I was very angry with God going you put him through so

1045
01:19:41,900 --> 01:19:47,140
much that you're gonna do this to him now and his mom and I hear the cough again like

1046
01:19:47,140 --> 01:19:51,620
and I peeked around the corner literally like a little kid and his eyes were open and he

1047
01:19:51,620 --> 01:19:56,900
was off the ventilator and he caught my eyes and his big smile his beautiful smile I remember

1048
01:19:56,900 --> 01:20:01,780
as a healthy child came on his face and I was like are you laughing at my tie because

1049
01:20:01,780 --> 01:20:06,780
I've been most obnoxious St. Patrick's Day tie-on I could find and he nodded his head

1050
01:20:06,780 --> 01:20:11,340
and I started to cry and ran up to him I'm like oh my god we've got you back and the

1051
01:20:11,340 --> 01:20:16,260
nurse everybody's crying and the nurses are like you too you need to go home and sleep

1052
01:20:16,260 --> 01:20:22,660
and he needs to rest he's been through an awful lot next morning the phone rings and

1053
01:20:22,660 --> 01:20:27,580
the caller ID shows it's the hospital and I'm sure he died during the night so I pick

1054
01:20:27,580 --> 01:20:31,220
up the phone and there's this very raspy voice on the other end of the line it's like dad

1055
01:20:31,220 --> 01:20:37,340
are you coming to see me today that was like oh my god he would run away shoot down there

1056
01:20:37,340 --> 01:20:42,100
we walk in and we get into his room he's very agitated he's sitting on the edge of his bed

1057
01:20:42,100 --> 01:20:46,220
and he wants to talk I'm like Sean I go you've been on his ventilator his thing's been down

1058
01:20:46,220 --> 01:20:51,260
your throat I go relax we got time now just sit back in a bed just let me hug you and

1059
01:20:51,260 --> 01:20:57,220
he know I'll need to talk and my wife again Pat go over there and sit down be quiet Sean

1060
01:20:57,220 --> 01:21:03,700
what what do you need to talk about he goes saw Sean Kenny and I go oh my god I knew

1061
01:21:03,700 --> 01:21:08,620
he had brain damage I knew it he doesn't even know who he is and my wife goes hang on a

1062
01:21:08,620 --> 01:21:16,940
minute she was Sean no you're Sean Kenny who did you see he saw said I saw grandpa Mike

1063
01:21:16,940 --> 01:21:22,780
and I'm like looking at him going did he say what I think he said she goes you saw grandpa

1064
01:21:22,780 --> 01:21:31,260
Mike what do you mean you saw grandpa Mike goes looks just like dad but younger big hands

1065
01:21:31,260 --> 01:21:37,460
black curly hair and she's like now Sean had never seen a picture of my dad in his prime

1066
01:21:37,460 --> 01:21:42,980
like he described when he was a hurler and that's exactly what he looked like when I

1067
01:21:42,980 --> 01:21:46,580
was a little boy my dad was an engineer and I remember walking with him and his hands

1068
01:21:46,580 --> 01:21:51,580
feeling his hands were huge like ten times the size of my hand and feeling how cool this

1069
01:21:51,580 --> 01:21:57,340
was to have this big hand in golf mine and my wife said did grandpa Mike talk to you

1070
01:21:57,340 --> 01:22:03,300
he said yeah we sat on this concrete bench with all these advertisements behind it now

1071
01:22:03,300 --> 01:22:08,780
my dad never had a driver's license we always took public transportation everywhere whenever

1072
01:22:08,780 --> 01:22:14,020
I went anywhere with him we took the bus and we would sit on a concrete bench with advertisements

1073
01:22:14,020 --> 01:22:19,620
behind it waiting for the bus those things didn't even exist in Sean's lifetime he never

1074
01:22:19,620 --> 01:22:24,180
saw them he never heard about them and yet he described it in detail and she said what

1075
01:22:24,180 --> 01:22:30,900
else did grandpa Mike say to you said tell dad I'm sorry I had to leave him sorry I had

1076
01:22:30,900 --> 01:22:38,180
to leave him sorely now you can tell me 20 year old drug addiction oxygen deprivation

1077
01:22:38,180 --> 01:22:42,340
all the drugs they push to keep him alive that have messed with his brain no 20 year

1078
01:22:42,340 --> 01:22:47,340
old kid knows what it feels like as a father if you had to leave your kid for whatever

1079
01:22:47,340 --> 01:22:53,140
reason behind in the emotion in his voice and the tears in his eyes I could feel it

1080
01:22:53,140 --> 01:22:57,740
and at that point I sat down because I was afraid I'd fall down and she said what else

1081
01:22:57,740 --> 01:23:07,460
did grandpa Mike say to you he said Sean you need to go back it's not your time so I don't

1082
01:23:07,460 --> 01:23:11,920
know and maybe this is the most important message of this podcast for somebody listening

1083
01:23:11,920 --> 01:23:16,300
out there whether you believe in God you have a religion you don't have a religion if you've

1084
01:23:16,300 --> 01:23:22,060
ever loved somebody and you wonder are they someplace else I don't know what it's called

1085
01:23:22,060 --> 01:23:28,540
and I don't know where it is but it's there because Sean was there and that discussion

1086
01:23:28,540 --> 01:23:33,780
he had with my dad was not a hallucination not that he could have retrieved from a memory

1087
01:23:33,780 --> 01:23:40,420
bank of nothing that even it was stored there he saw my dad and I'm like oh my god all those

1088
01:23:40,420 --> 01:23:46,140
years of hoping he was watching me and still being my hero is like he could see me like

1089
01:23:46,140 --> 01:23:52,700
okay now I'm sure we are golden not only did he survive but he saw my dad we are gonna

1090
01:23:52,700 --> 01:23:58,220
he's gonna be just fine and it didn't work that way he got worse he had lost some hearing

1091
01:23:58,220 --> 01:24:03,020
from being down they tried actually that was in March and April they tried it he was the

1092
01:24:03,020 --> 01:24:07,340
first person to have this surgery where they put an implant in his chest with the hope

1093
01:24:07,340 --> 01:24:11,580
of blocking some of the chemical impulses that would trigger things in the brain and

1094
01:24:11,580 --> 01:24:16,220
he just got worse his voice would crack like he was going through puberty and ironically

1095
01:24:16,220 --> 01:24:21,500
on Easter Sunday he passed out in our home and my wife was sure he had taken an overdose

1096
01:24:21,500 --> 01:24:25,780
of something I remember running into the bathroom and holding him and he can't hear me well

1097
01:24:25,780 --> 01:24:29,860
because the hearing aids not in and I'm like Sean did you take something and with these

1098
01:24:29,860 --> 01:24:34,900
sad eyes he looked at me went no dad I didn't and took him to the hospital and they were

1099
01:24:34,900 --> 01:24:42,460
like no he's clean it's the device so on June the third of that year he took his life and

1100
01:24:42,460 --> 01:24:49,500
people will always say to me are you upset are you angry with him remember I laid in

1101
01:24:49,500 --> 01:24:54,980
that cemetery at 14 I watched what he went through we took him to Mayo Clinic at one

1102
01:24:54,980 --> 01:25:01,940
point the year before so when he was 19 and spent out of our own pockets a week's worth

1103
01:25:01,940 --> 01:25:05,780
of investigation physically and mentally of everything going on with him at the end of

1104
01:25:05,780 --> 01:25:11,540
the week James they said to us he's terminal and I remember saying did you find something

1105
01:25:11,540 --> 01:25:15,640
in his brain like I was hopeful they're like no you don't get it you have 10 breast cancer

1106
01:25:15,640 --> 01:25:21,820
patients same age same diagnosis we do the same course of treatment nine respond wonderfully

1107
01:25:21,820 --> 01:25:28,780
one does not we don't know why but it disease does not respond to anything we throw at it

1108
01:25:28,780 --> 01:25:33,540
goes it's the same with Sean we reviewed his chart he's tried every medicine we know in

1109
01:25:33,540 --> 01:25:39,460
every intervention and the disease is not responding if something doesn't change soon

1110
01:25:39,460 --> 01:25:46,900
he will take his life because every day he makes the decision to stay not to go he decides

1111
01:25:46,900 --> 01:25:55,660
to stay one more day and so I get it I absolutely get it and what he taught me about mental

1112
01:25:55,660 --> 01:26:00,780
health was I look at the value of this kid I think of all the goodness and as I mentioned

1113
01:26:00,780 --> 01:26:05,860
earlier when he looked in the mirror he saw nothing but ugly nothing but pain I looked

1114
01:26:05,860 --> 01:26:11,060
in the mirror and I saw a handsome kid everybody loved who could walk in the room and he could

1115
01:26:11,060 --> 01:26:16,540
light that room up he had a magnetism a leadership magnetism he was the catcher at his baseball

1116
01:26:16,540 --> 01:26:22,080
team the center his football team but he never saw that he couldn't feel that and the intrusive

1117
01:26:22,080 --> 01:26:27,620
thoughts had gotten so bad there was only one way out in the hotel that he went to to

1118
01:26:27,620 --> 01:26:34,300
take his life it was this flea bag hotel in the city and the lady who saw him at the front

1119
01:26:34,300 --> 01:26:38,420
desk because when I went down to get her stuff she thought I was a cop because of my unmarked

1120
01:26:38,420 --> 01:26:42,900
car and she was very guarded and when she brought out his bag of clothes I just burst

1121
01:26:42,900 --> 01:26:48,620
into tears and she looked at me she said you're not a cop and I said no I go I'm his dad and

1122
01:26:48,620 --> 01:26:54,300
she said I was here when he checked in and he said to me good morning he said what a

1123
01:26:54,300 --> 01:26:59,900
beautiful day and it was because he was now relieved that soon he wasn't going to be in

1124
01:26:59,900 --> 01:27:06,380
that pain anymore so all those things he taught me inspired me to go I got to do something

1125
01:27:06,380 --> 01:27:11,540
about this I did I had the chance in my fire department to change the culture about mental

1126
01:27:11,540 --> 01:27:17,660
health by just sharing Sean's almost 15 year journey it did I didn't tell anybody the only

1127
01:27:17,660 --> 01:27:22,740
people who knew were my deputy and my secretary because I would have to disappear as the chief

1128
01:27:22,740 --> 01:27:28,140
for hours and sometimes overnight at a time based on where he was in his illness because

1129
01:27:28,140 --> 01:27:32,300
I was afraid that they would see him walk in the door and they would think less of him

1130
01:27:32,300 --> 01:27:36,260
but you know James as more years go by I think I was more afraid of what they think of me

1131
01:27:36,260 --> 01:27:40,460
okay you're our leader you're supposed to protect us and you can't even take care of

1132
01:27:40,460 --> 01:27:45,060
your own kid the hell are you gonna do when we're in trouble and I think I did it to protect

1133
01:27:45,060 --> 01:27:51,860
me as much as I did to protect him and I missed the window of where I could have made it normal

1134
01:27:51,860 --> 01:27:56,380
at the kitchen table and here's the follow-up to that that's really critical a month later

1135
01:27:56,380 --> 01:28:00,820
it's fourth of July like everybody else we have a big holiday but it's a mandatory report

1136
01:28:00,820 --> 01:28:06,100
because we had a small department about this big festival we had I didn't pay any attention

1137
01:28:06,100 --> 01:28:12,100
I went in that day and I lean beg me don't go in there it will tear you apart all those

1138
01:28:12,100 --> 01:28:15,940
families and just don't do that no the guy in the cape no got to do it because where

1139
01:28:15,940 --> 01:28:20,140
did I feel comfortable in the phone book I went in there I shook hands I did all glad

1140
01:28:20,140 --> 01:28:23,500
any and then when my office and stopped for three hours till it was over and then came

1141
01:28:23,500 --> 01:28:27,420
out say goodbye to everybody went home the following day there's a lieutenant at the

1142
01:28:27,420 --> 01:28:33,220
door chief can I talk to you for a minute what's up he said you didn't give firefighter

1143
01:28:33,220 --> 01:28:38,220
so-and-so yesterday off did you from this mandatory detail you know what I don't even

1144
01:28:38,220 --> 01:28:42,140
remember what the hell I'm doing now I but I don't think so he's well there are other

1145
01:28:42,140 --> 01:28:46,740
issues and he had a pile of paper which is never a good time for a chief and he said

1146
01:28:46,740 --> 01:28:50,420
we've had some issues with him over the last month with altercations and the last one got

1147
01:28:50,420 --> 01:28:57,340
physical Mike is he here today said yeah said send him in now I would love to tell you that

1148
01:28:57,340 --> 01:29:02,060
my thought process was I'm gonna I'm going to be the guy who's getting what's going on

1149
01:29:02,060 --> 01:29:06,940
and how you doing no in my mind that short hallway he was about to walk down to I was

1150
01:29:06,940 --> 01:29:13,500
he was going to get every anger negative emotion I had he just gave me a permission slip to

1151
01:29:13,500 --> 01:29:18,260
kick his ass with everything that self-loathing I had so he came in and said that I didn't

1152
01:29:18,260 --> 01:29:21,620
look up I was looking at the papers he sat down he goes chief do you want to know where

1153
01:29:21,620 --> 01:29:25,140
I was yesterday so I don't really give a shit where you were yesterday so let's go back

1154
01:29:25,140 --> 01:29:30,060
and start looking at June whatever it was you've had an altercation and he said again

1155
01:29:30,060 --> 01:29:34,000
chief do you want to know where I was yesterday and honest to God James this time I heard

1156
01:29:34,000 --> 01:29:40,700
Sean's voice because dad you need to look up and I literally looked up over my glasses

1157
01:29:40,700 --> 01:29:47,260
and he was crying I put the papers down and I go where were you yesterday he said we know

1158
01:29:47,260 --> 01:29:51,340
for the last month we've talked about Sean at the kitchen table talked about what that

1159
01:29:51,340 --> 01:29:55,420
must have been like how we feel bad that there wasn't anything we could do to help him we

1160
01:29:55,420 --> 01:29:59,260
could have helped Eileen we could have helped Pat and Brendan your other boys and we could

1161
01:29:59,260 --> 01:30:06,500
have helped you but we didn't know he said we really believe he's not in pain anymore

1162
01:30:06,500 --> 01:30:10,860
and that he's safe and that's a good thing he said yesterday I sat in a bathtub with

1163
01:30:10,860 --> 01:30:16,820
a gun in my mouth for the whole day and thought about joining him now again love to tell you

1164
01:30:16,820 --> 01:30:20,940
angel sitting here was the guy to well here I got a chance to save the day with you know

1165
01:30:20,940 --> 01:30:24,500
in fact in my mind I was thinking God is there any way I can trade this guy's ass for my

1166
01:30:24,500 --> 01:30:30,340
son can we do that is that possible and again I heard Sean in my ear go dad you know what

1167
01:30:30,340 --> 01:30:39,980
to do just please do it so I said okay what's going on and what turns out is for the past

1168
01:30:39,980 --> 01:30:44,740
three years in this little firehouse where we all knew each other he would take personal

1169
01:30:44,740 --> 01:30:49,180
time or vacation time whenever he lost a patient on the ambulance and I'm not talking about

1170
01:30:49,180 --> 01:30:52,340
somebody had died in his arms I'm talking about he could have gone to the house and

1171
01:30:52,340 --> 01:30:56,900
this person could have been dead for 12 hours but the guilt of feeling like the cape that

1172
01:30:56,900 --> 01:31:03,220
he had sworn to take to save people that every time he let these people down we had no clue

1173
01:31:03,220 --> 01:31:09,820
about that so I take him to the hospital we go up the elevator he gets out of the elevator

1174
01:31:09,820 --> 01:31:12,940
takes his uniform off and now he disappears behind that door with the other people who

1175
01:31:12,940 --> 01:31:18,180
are suffering and he got help and it turns out he had PTSD so bad that he had to go off

1176
01:31:18,180 --> 01:31:24,540
the job he is to this day to his absolute positive I can't even say enough about the

1177
01:31:24,540 --> 01:31:30,460
courage of this guy is doing good is managing the PTSD is no longer in the fire service

1178
01:31:30,460 --> 01:31:34,020
but pretty soon I'm hoping is going to be able to walk his daughter down the aisle and

1179
01:31:34,020 --> 01:31:38,100
he has a son who became a firefighter because I'm just tremendous but he always said you

1180
01:31:38,100 --> 01:31:42,060
know Sean saved my life are you saved my life and I go no that's bullshit Sean saved your

1181
01:31:42,060 --> 01:31:47,460
life I go because Sean died you all talked about it at the table if I had just opened

1182
01:31:47,460 --> 01:31:52,820
my mouth 15 years ago and told this story like I would have if he had any other difficult

1183
01:31:52,820 --> 01:31:57,220
illness you might have come forward three years ago when this was starting to haunt

1184
01:31:57,220 --> 01:32:01,340
you and we might have saved your career and that's when I went I've got I've got to do

1185
01:32:01,340 --> 01:32:06,520
something so people know they've got to change the stigma in their fire departments do it

1186
01:32:06,520 --> 01:32:09,180
before something happens because I didn't.

1187
01:32:09,180 --> 01:32:15,860
Well Pat I want to first to say thank you so much I mean it's a heart-wrenching story

1188
01:32:15,860 --> 01:32:19,940
as a parent myself especially as a little boy is going through that you know issue at

1189
01:32:19,940 --> 01:32:26,060
the moment I think it hopefully it's a more mild version of but I'm sure so many people

1190
01:32:26,060 --> 01:32:32,420
listening are seeing a lot more mental health issues in their children than we discuss about

1191
01:32:32,420 --> 01:32:36,740
as well and I've just kind of tripped over this this Baker Act thing that you and I discussed

1192
01:32:36,740 --> 01:32:42,380
about and it literally blew open this world of issues that we're seeing in our children

1193
01:32:42,380 --> 01:32:48,900
and some schools are doing it very well some schools are dropping the ball but the the

1194
01:32:48,900 --> 01:32:53,340
awful awful fact is that we're talking about it finally in the first responder community

1195
01:32:53,340 --> 01:32:58,260
the military we're talking about it a little bit ahead of us and now I think we're looking

1196
01:32:58,260 --> 01:33:03,580
again and be like well shit you know our kids are hurting and I know that Sean didn't grow

1197
01:33:03,580 --> 01:33:10,260
up quite in this generation but now we've got in a generation of children who are where

1198
01:33:10,260 --> 01:33:13,780
you and I did fire drills when we were kids and I don't remember being traumatized by

1199
01:33:13,780 --> 01:33:18,540
that at all because it was just a way of getting out of math and I was really bad at math but

1200
01:33:18,540 --> 01:33:23,500
now they're drilling where they turn off the lights put desks against the door and hide

1201
01:33:23,500 --> 01:33:27,420
in the corner of the room because someone is coming with a gun to murder them all you

1202
01:33:27,420 --> 01:33:31,940
know what I mean so that we have we have you know the social media stuff there's so many

1203
01:33:31,940 --> 01:33:37,940
other areas so separate from Sean's story which you know again is the courage that that

1204
01:33:37,940 --> 01:33:43,740
he had and the battles that he had we need to talk about this as a firehouse a fire department

1205
01:33:43,740 --> 01:33:50,620
police department you know er but also our children I had no idea how rampant mental

1206
01:33:50,620 --> 01:33:55,740
ill health and mental challenges are amongst our kids and that is also a discussion that

1207
01:33:55,740 --> 01:34:03,180
you hardly ever hear no I agree and in the the statistics of college students who take

1208
01:34:03,180 --> 01:34:08,500
their life is staggering and you think about it the environment all well-meaning no parent

1209
01:34:08,500 --> 01:34:13,340
ever parents their children with the intent that they're going to put them in a compromising

1210
01:34:13,340 --> 01:34:18,100
position but because of the way our kids are raised we want always everything better for

1211
01:34:18,100 --> 01:34:24,260
them and now they're being we protect them from everything a child who's already suffering

1212
01:34:24,260 --> 01:34:27,580
with some mental health illnesses is not going to come forward because it's not going to

1213
01:34:27,580 --> 01:34:31,020
reflect well on when you apply for college it's not going to reflect well on your parents

1214
01:34:31,020 --> 01:34:34,860
it's certainly not going to reflect well in your peer group because it'll be all over

1215
01:34:34,860 --> 01:34:39,060
Twitter Facebook and everything that you're a loser and instead of somebody passing a

1216
01:34:39,060 --> 01:34:42,860
note in my generation that said I was fat pat now they would have blasted it to 600

1217
01:34:42,860 --> 01:34:48,740
people you know in a 30 seconds and then they get to college where is a lonely environment

1218
01:34:48,740 --> 01:34:54,020
anyways and you have to be incredibly resilient because you might meet some of the first failures

1219
01:34:54,020 --> 01:34:59,500
ever in your life and we have not built a system for these kids to be able to realize

1220
01:34:59,500 --> 01:35:05,020
that yeah that that's a pretty common reaction and here's what you do if that happens so

1221
01:35:05,020 --> 01:35:09,820
they again look at like I only have one alternative I don't want to be around I don't belong I'm

1222
01:35:09,820 --> 01:35:16,340
not good enough I'm not you know and we see it and you're right in the schools I'm a volunteer

1223
01:35:16,340 --> 01:35:21,340
coach on our at our high school for baseball and I've been blessed they have 20 years coaching

1224
01:35:21,340 --> 01:35:27,260
kids that it really after Sean passed it was it was my therapy those those young men kept

1225
01:35:27,260 --> 01:35:31,340
me going and I would listen to things that you would hear as a coach that you wouldn't

1226
01:35:31,340 --> 01:35:35,260
hear as a teacher and just be able to pull kids aside and go you need to go into your

1227
01:35:35,260 --> 01:35:39,620
counselor having discussion about that because this is that's that's a normal reaction what

1228
01:35:39,620 --> 01:35:43,400
just happened you either with your girlfriend or you flunked that exam or you're hiding

1229
01:35:43,400 --> 01:35:46,740
the grades from your parents or whatever would be but you need to go and talk about that

1230
01:35:46,740 --> 01:35:52,860
because otherwise just becomes a bigger deal than even you think it is and that that environment

1231
01:35:52,860 --> 01:35:59,020
there is also very stale in terms of this topic like no we don't want to get on it

1232
01:35:59,020 --> 01:36:04,220
what we don't want to and this one always drives me we don't want to encourage the fact

1233
01:36:04,220 --> 01:36:09,020
by talking about it that people will all of a sudden we're gonna have this mass suicide

1234
01:36:09,020 --> 01:36:15,460
occurring well wait a minute I mean studies have shown for years the reduction in PTSD

1235
01:36:15,460 --> 01:36:19,860
just by having a conversation with somebody not necessarily a therapist or it's why peer

1236
01:36:19,860 --> 01:36:25,900
support is taken off is reduces the dead impact so we don't even make conversation we don't

1237
01:36:25,900 --> 01:36:30,180
encourage conversation it's hard enough our kids now are you know are on their devices

1238
01:36:30,180 --> 01:36:33,820
so their communication is much different than what I grew up with which doesn't necessarily

1239
01:36:33,820 --> 01:36:37,180
make it wrong but you have to realize what are the positives and the negatives and there

1240
01:36:37,180 --> 01:36:41,540
are incredible number of positives in terms of efficiency and speed but the negatives

1241
01:36:41,540 --> 01:36:46,660
are I'll do a whole lot of face-to-face and so when I'm really in trouble that's when

1242
01:36:46,660 --> 01:36:50,900
you expect me to come face to face not if you haven't set up the environment for that

1243
01:36:50,900 --> 01:36:55,300
child and the time they're growing up very similar to what we talked just talked about

1244
01:36:55,300 --> 01:37:01,140
in our orientation who would think a five-year-old would have clinical depression okay it happens

1245
01:37:01,140 --> 01:37:06,060
because it's an illness why are children born with cancer their infants it's an illness

1246
01:37:06,060 --> 01:37:11,120
it's it's something that occurs inside their body they can't control but we don't talk

1247
01:37:11,120 --> 01:37:16,220
about that as they're growing and I was just as guilty I ignored it I tried to put it away

1248
01:37:16,220 --> 01:37:21,520
with Sean until it slapped me in the face so bad that first suicide attempt I no longer

1249
01:37:21,520 --> 01:37:26,100
could look at it as a different and it's something that didn't exist so you're right I think

1250
01:37:26,100 --> 01:37:31,140
looking at so then if we groom our kids that way to feel like they have support and that

1251
01:37:31,140 --> 01:37:34,920
it's normal here's what you do then when we get them as young people in the fire service

1252
01:37:34,920 --> 01:37:38,940
guess what the parents have already know a lot of the legwork of what we need to do to

1253
01:37:38,940 --> 01:37:44,100
go this is okay man this is normal and and now we're thrilled you're going in this profession

1254
01:37:44,100 --> 01:37:47,860
to help people but guess what you're not gonna always help them you're gonna see really bad

1255
01:37:47,860 --> 01:37:52,940
stuff and when it hits you remember what I we talked about in fourth grade about here

1256
01:37:52,940 --> 01:37:56,600
you need to reach out when you start to feel this way well that's what you damn well better

1257
01:37:56,600 --> 01:37:59,140
doing that profession.

1258
01:37:59,140 --> 01:38:04,740
Yeah I couldn't agree more I had a conversation with Steve Harrell yesterday who is a retired

1259
01:38:04,740 --> 01:38:09,180
fighter pilot he actually became a fireman for a firefighter paramedic for a year so

1260
01:38:09,180 --> 01:38:15,500
a really interesting insight into our career coming from such a high level military position

1261
01:38:15,500 --> 01:38:20,820
but he now runs a camp for the kids of members of the military that died and what's beautiful

1262
01:38:20,820 --> 01:38:26,260
is that includes you know succumbing to wounds or even suicide if they were on you know they

1263
01:38:26,260 --> 01:38:31,120
were if they were still in the military and he made the same comment like we have some

1264
01:38:31,120 --> 01:38:35,740
kids they do well but when they go to college we noticed that they weren't doing well again

1265
01:38:35,740 --> 01:38:39,860
so then they started opening the camp up to the college age and then now you know a lot

1266
01:38:39,860 --> 01:38:44,740
of those kids become mentors in the camp but it's another area you don't think about as

1267
01:38:44,740 --> 01:38:49,540
a as a kid in high school you have your tribe you have your family a tribe now they move

1268
01:38:49,540 --> 01:38:55,680
away across the country to a dorm room you know with with and you've kind of still been

1269
01:38:55,680 --> 01:38:59,700
led through school now you're completely independent you've got to find out your schedule you've

1270
01:38:59,700 --> 01:39:05,020
got to go here you've got to you know fend for yourself and create a new tribe some people

1271
01:39:05,020 --> 01:39:09,380
are going to do it very well but if you've got someone who's already struggling mentally

1272
01:39:09,380 --> 01:39:13,540
and then you take them away from all of their positive coping mechanisms and drop them in

1273
01:39:13,540 --> 01:39:19,500
a completely different place I can see how in in a vulnerable mind that could really

1274
01:39:19,500 --> 01:39:22,260
tip them over the edge.

1275
01:39:22,260 --> 01:39:25,860
Absolutely and I always encourage parents when they're saying you know any advice about

1276
01:39:25,860 --> 01:39:30,300
what you should be looking at when you go away to schools and stuff I go make sure you

1277
01:39:30,300 --> 01:39:36,540
ask them if my child has a really bad day who do they go talk to is that 24 7 what do

1278
01:39:36,540 --> 01:39:39,740
they make the connection we introduce them when they first come on campus how do they

1279
01:39:39,740 --> 01:39:44,020
know when that moment hits and they'll look at me and go well that's kind of pessimistic

1280
01:39:44,020 --> 01:39:48,140
I know that no that's realistic and if they never have to make that phone call then when

1281
01:39:48,140 --> 01:39:52,340
they graduate you give them an extra hug but if they have to make that phone call you don't

1282
01:39:52,340 --> 01:39:55,300
want them at two o'clock in the morning trying to figure it out because it may be a whole

1283
01:39:55,300 --> 01:39:59,780
lot easier to do something you don't want to think about and we don't so that's a normal

1284
01:39:59,780 --> 01:40:02,820
it's like asking a question about all right what's the tuition and they're gonna have

1285
01:40:02,820 --> 01:40:07,140
their own room are they gonna share a room it's like one just one more question but it's

1286
01:40:07,140 --> 01:40:10,700
not on the radar because it's almost like you're indicting your child by asking the

1287
01:40:10,700 --> 01:40:14,860
questions like no I'm caring about my child by asking the question just like looking to

1288
01:40:14,860 --> 01:40:20,340
have these programs in place for our folks is caring for your firefighters not the opposite

1289
01:40:20,340 --> 01:40:25,500
yeah and then to me that's tantamount with with saying oh is there a chiropractor in

1290
01:40:25,500 --> 01:40:31,660
the school area well that's kind of pessimistic it's no it's self-care and it's physical self-care

1291
01:40:31,660 --> 01:40:36,460
and it's mental self-care and even if the kids are doing incredibly well and they're

1292
01:40:36,460 --> 01:40:42,980
very resilient this is an ongoing care process and the fact that a counselor psychologist

1293
01:40:42,980 --> 01:40:48,100
psychiatrist needs to be seen just when the shits hit the fan is another complete fallacy

1294
01:40:48,100 --> 01:40:52,860
like we we have things that we deal with and it can be in our profession which is very

1295
01:40:52,860 --> 01:40:57,740
extreme or the rest of life which can be you know I mean your your story so far and you're

1296
01:40:57,740 --> 01:41:02,980
going to carry on the traumas that you've experienced outside your profession alone

1297
01:41:02,980 --> 01:41:09,620
would would you know would be an incredible load with on all of us so to view any sort

1298
01:41:09,620 --> 01:41:18,420
of mental health support as in any way less important than physical health is is absolutely

1299
01:41:18,420 --> 01:41:26,100
ridiculous yeah I I agree and I think the the other part that's really really important

1300
01:41:26,100 --> 01:41:31,540
is is that is that whole looking at it at the population we've centered on that suicide

1301
01:41:31,540 --> 01:41:36,180
is is obviously a struggle now when dealing with first responders but it but it truly

1302
01:41:36,180 --> 01:41:42,460
is a societal problem and I think if if if we go at it as a society then it removes even

1303
01:41:42,460 --> 01:41:45,900
when you get into a profession like ours it really kind of ramps up the fact that yeah

1304
01:41:45,900 --> 01:41:50,380
you're you're held to this wonderful standard of that you're you're gonna make save the

1305
01:41:50,380 --> 01:41:56,260
day that then they're not caught in that battle of well yeah but I can't feel this way because

1306
01:41:56,260 --> 01:42:00,300
I'm supposed to be there for everybody else no you're a pretty special person that you're

1307
01:42:00,300 --> 01:42:05,060
in this vocation to start with and when you feel that way just get it taken care of and

1308
01:42:05,060 --> 01:42:10,340
then go back to doing what you're doing and all through life if people are raised that

1309
01:42:10,340 --> 01:42:13,700
way then it just becomes a whole lot easier to do.

1310
01:42:13,700 --> 01:42:17,540
Yeah yeah and I think the other thing that people miss like I I hurt my back a few years

1311
01:42:17,540 --> 01:42:23,340
ago and through the rehab and foundation training some other things I found I ended up coming

1312
01:42:23,340 --> 01:42:28,620
back stronger and that's the other element of the mental health side is if you you know

1313
01:42:28,620 --> 01:42:33,460
I mean obviously Sean's case is different because he had you know like you said a terminal

1314
01:42:33,460 --> 01:42:39,980
mental battle that you know he wasn't able to win but you know most of the population

1315
01:42:39,980 --> 01:42:45,180
if you address what the issue is you're gonna come back more resilient you're gonna be stronger

1316
01:42:45,180 --> 01:42:50,140
you're gonna you're gonna be more more able to deal with whatever comes your way the next

1317
01:42:50,140 --> 01:42:54,460
time but if you don't address it you're slowly breaking down breaking down breaking down

1318
01:42:54,460 --> 01:42:59,180
and would you do that physically if you hurt your back would you just leave the pain there

1319
01:42:59,180 --> 01:43:03,220
or you know sad case we see so many people just take pills and don't don't ever fix it

1320
01:43:03,220 --> 01:43:06,580
at some point as a firefighter you're gonna break and you're gonna you're gonna have to

1321
01:43:06,580 --> 01:43:11,380
retire out because you blew your back out versus you address the issues that caused

1322
01:43:11,380 --> 01:43:15,740
that back injury in the first place and now you're the go-to guy anything anytime someone

1323
01:43:15,740 --> 01:43:19,220
needs to be dragged out of a building because you've addressed that issue and you came back

1324
01:43:19,220 --> 01:43:24,520
stronger now I couldn't agree more and what you said before was powerful and I meant to

1325
01:43:24,520 --> 01:43:30,380
follow up on it about it going to see a counselor looking at you either do it in a crisis or

1326
01:43:30,380 --> 01:43:35,760
that it's you don't do it and I always get a kick out of sometimes after I'm I finished

1327
01:43:35,760 --> 01:43:39,860
doing Sean's talk I'll always make sure to say yeah I need to go see my counselor for

1328
01:43:39,860 --> 01:43:44,260
an oil change and people kind of look at me and I go yeah when I'm feeling anxious or

1329
01:43:44,260 --> 01:43:49,060
when I'm noticing that I'm eating something and my eating habits have changed and all

1330
01:43:49,060 --> 01:43:53,100
of a sudden I'm eating a lot more and it's tasting really good and I go I just go in

1331
01:43:53,100 --> 01:43:57,740
for an oil change you go you know what this is how I'm feeling lately is that that it'll

1332
01:43:57,740 --> 01:44:01,780
be might be coming up on Sean's anniversary it might be a holiday or it might not be anything

1333
01:44:01,780 --> 01:44:07,220
at all something might have triggered me at work and I'll get yeah here's what's going

1334
01:44:07,220 --> 01:44:12,260
on and it's completely normal and good you got your radar up or no that is none to do

1335
01:44:12,260 --> 01:44:16,420
it anything you're just you just happen to be hungry for extra pizza that way and it

1336
01:44:16,420 --> 01:44:20,700
just checking in every once in a while even if you're making big decisions in your life

1337
01:44:20,700 --> 01:44:26,180
to go here's my thought process they're bouncing it off somebody who's listened to loads of

1338
01:44:26,180 --> 01:44:31,060
stories and can can kind of predict a little bit better good healthy paths to go down to

1339
01:44:31,060 --> 01:44:35,820
is really powerful exactly what you said about if I and I have a bad back to now I have to

1340
01:44:35,820 --> 01:44:41,500
go in more for routine to get it checked and learn the positives doing stretching and core

1341
01:44:41,500 --> 01:44:46,740
exercise stuff that I honestly I was never a stretcher ever and anything I ever did in

1342
01:44:46,740 --> 01:44:51,620
but now it's normal for me to go I need to take the extra time to do that well okay take

1343
01:44:51,620 --> 01:44:56,300
that extra hour to go see a counselor once a year even as you do your annual physical

1344
01:44:56,300 --> 01:45:01,100
just to go hey here's what's going on in my life in the last year well you you had two

1345
01:45:01,100 --> 01:45:05,220
major calls and you had to put your dad in a nursing home did you get that you're you

1346
01:45:05,220 --> 01:45:09,260
were under an incredible amount of stress high handle in that just a conversation and

1347
01:45:09,260 --> 01:45:13,900
it may be that you're handling it really really well and it may be that you're heading down

1348
01:45:13,900 --> 01:45:18,300
a path that they can go do you see where this is going and how you're treating it may I

1349
01:45:18,300 --> 01:45:22,180
suggest that you go this way I didn't think about that didn't know it was gonna do that

1350
01:45:22,180 --> 01:45:27,620
okay got it it's that simple it really it really is in most cases people try to make

1351
01:45:27,620 --> 01:45:32,340
this it's it truly is behind the curtain some type of a magician and it's not it really

1352
01:45:32,340 --> 01:45:38,260
is self-care and self-love to get yourself to a point of where you're like I am worthy

1353
01:45:38,260 --> 01:45:41,900
of getting that kind of help I'm gonna get it and I'm gonna move on because then I am

1354
01:45:41,900 --> 01:45:46,560
gonna put the cape on and benefit all sorts of other people my spouse my family and my

1355
01:45:46,560 --> 01:45:49,060
profession because I'm healthy.

1356
01:45:49,060 --> 01:45:53,860
Yeah absolutely couldn't agree more now I want to get to one more area and then we'll

1357
01:45:53,860 --> 01:46:00,180
do some wrap-up questions but before we start recording you told me how Eileen had come

1358
01:46:00,180 --> 01:46:05,840
up with me I helped you come up with the concept of comparing mental health and cancer together

1359
01:46:05,840 --> 01:46:11,460
and then how that sadly tied into you know to her own health so would you be able to

1360
01:46:11,460 --> 01:46:13,340
tell that story?

1361
01:46:13,340 --> 01:46:21,900
Absolutely so probably 2014 so I had been doing Sean's presentation for five years at

1362
01:46:21,900 --> 01:46:27,060
that point and it had gone from you might get five people in the audience and who were

1363
01:46:27,060 --> 01:46:32,900
all struggling to now people asking for it to be a keynote speech between four or five

1364
01:46:32,900 --> 01:46:38,700
hundred people and but every audience I could look out and see seventy percent of them halfway

1365
01:46:38,700 --> 01:46:43,340
through it were like they're getting this they're understanding that this is truly a

1366
01:46:43,340 --> 01:46:49,060
physical illness and then the other thirty percent it just a lot of empathy and or sympathy

1367
01:46:49,060 --> 01:46:53,060
in their eyes and I'm like I am not connecting on this I've got to find a way to make them

1368
01:46:53,060 --> 01:46:57,940
believe that when you've got depression or anxiety or bipolar that it's actually something

1369
01:46:57,940 --> 01:47:03,020
chemically going on in you so we sat down and said what about if I compare this to a

1370
01:47:03,020 --> 01:47:07,300
physical illness what do you think and we talked about cancer and we agreed let's do

1371
01:47:07,300 --> 01:47:13,580
brain cancer and so I put together a couple of slides that basically took people through

1372
01:47:13,580 --> 01:47:18,900
the fire service with cancer in the fire service with brain cancer and basically started off

1373
01:47:18,900 --> 01:47:23,460
with saying okay as a firefighter are you exposed to dangerous byproducts that would

1374
01:47:23,460 --> 01:47:26,940
put you in a position where you're more likely to contract cancer?

1375
01:47:26,940 --> 01:47:28,020
Yeah you are.

1376
01:47:28,020 --> 01:47:32,260
Are you exposed on the mental health side to these emotional traumatic situations that

1377
01:47:32,260 --> 01:47:35,460
would make it more likely that you might have some mental health challenges?

1378
01:47:35,460 --> 01:47:37,700
Absolutely okay check the first box.

1379
01:47:37,700 --> 01:47:42,660
The second one was is there any way to diagnose this?

1380
01:47:42,660 --> 01:47:44,900
Does there some way in the organization something for them?

1381
01:47:44,900 --> 01:47:52,180
Well on the cancer side we've got an annual medical we have saved lives through that cancer

1382
01:47:52,180 --> 01:47:53,180
screening.

1383
01:47:53,180 --> 01:47:58,780
On the mental health side not so much in most places there's nothing so that person who's

1384
01:47:58,780 --> 01:48:02,580
gone through those traumatic calls and then ends up having to put their dad in a nursing

1385
01:48:02,580 --> 01:48:07,260
home we if we have a blood pressure that's a tick too high you're not supposed to go

1386
01:48:07,260 --> 01:48:09,700
back to duty until you follow up with a physician.

1387
01:48:09,700 --> 01:48:14,340
That person that we know has been through a trauma we don't give them even a recommendation

1388
01:48:14,340 --> 01:48:17,740
that you need to go see somebody so we've got a whole.

1389
01:48:17,740 --> 01:48:19,540
The next level is denial.

1390
01:48:19,540 --> 01:48:21,300
Can I get a lump on my back?

1391
01:48:21,300 --> 01:48:22,300
Yeah it's just a cyst.

1392
01:48:22,300 --> 01:48:23,980
I'm not gonna go get that checked out.

1393
01:48:23,980 --> 01:48:29,340
I'm sure it's nothing at all on the cancer side and certainly on the mental health side

1394
01:48:29,340 --> 01:48:34,720
we deny and say no I'm you know I'm fine I'm just a little crabby or I mean nobody sleeps

1395
01:48:34,720 --> 01:48:39,820
well or it's just an extra drink or whatever or my wife doesn't understand me and so we

1396
01:48:39,820 --> 01:48:41,380
deny it.

1397
01:48:41,380 --> 01:48:47,220
And then you go to the next level of can you be if you seek help can you be cured and on

1398
01:48:47,220 --> 01:48:51,620
the cancer side yeah there's a lot of treatment there's a lot but there's hope and on the

1399
01:48:51,620 --> 01:48:54,900
mental health side is there for that also?

1400
01:48:54,900 --> 01:48:55,900
Yes there is.

1401
01:48:55,900 --> 01:49:01,660
And both contingent on you must seek treatment and the last level is what if it's terminal.

1402
01:49:01,660 --> 01:49:04,340
What if you have terminal cancer what ends up happening?

1403
01:49:04,340 --> 01:49:07,980
Well they treat you to buy quality time quote unquote.

1404
01:49:07,980 --> 01:49:11,900
We can't save you but we're gonna try and make the best of the time that's left.

1405
01:49:11,900 --> 01:49:17,940
On the mental health side the challenge was for Sean was let's see if we can get him a

1406
01:49:17,940 --> 01:49:21,460
little bit more quality time maybe life will be better.

1407
01:49:21,460 --> 01:49:26,540
In both cases the end result is the same you no longer have that person sitting at your

1408
01:49:26,540 --> 01:49:29,380
kitchen table for Christmas.

1409
01:49:29,380 --> 01:49:34,100
The difference is when there's a firefighter's funeral who passes away from cancer the place

1410
01:49:34,100 --> 01:49:35,100
is packed.

1411
01:49:35,100 --> 01:49:39,280
The family's embraced meals are brought things are done.

1412
01:49:39,280 --> 01:49:44,340
When you have a firefighter who takes their life it's crickets at the walkthrough.

1413
01:49:44,340 --> 01:49:46,060
The family might not be talked to at all.

1414
01:49:46,060 --> 01:49:50,300
I've had and this is a true story I've actually had a fire chief in the last two years tell

1415
01:49:50,300 --> 01:49:55,540
me a story from out east about a department where a young man took his life firefighter.

1416
01:49:55,540 --> 01:49:58,340
The neighboring agency was the one that responded to his call.

1417
01:49:58,340 --> 01:50:02,580
The guys that were on the call were guys were in the academy with this young firefighter.

1418
01:50:02,580 --> 01:50:06,700
The department that lost the firefighter the chief brought in critical incidents dressed

1419
01:50:06,700 --> 01:50:11,380
a briefing wanted to have just get everybody together at another time just this kind of

1420
01:50:11,380 --> 01:50:13,220
a follow-up.

1421
01:50:13,220 --> 01:50:17,620
He invited the department who responded to the incident all of them and their significant

1422
01:50:17,620 --> 01:50:23,520
others and the chief said to his people if you go to that debriefing you're just as weak

1423
01:50:23,520 --> 01:50:25,860
as the guy who killed himself.

1424
01:50:25,860 --> 01:50:31,460
Now that that bullshit attitude is still people say to me well Pat do you think things have

1425
01:50:31,460 --> 01:50:36,300
come a long way since Sean passed things have definitely progressed.

1426
01:50:36,300 --> 01:50:41,420
They've still we are having much more of a conversation but there's still a lot of people

1427
01:50:41,420 --> 01:50:45,260
out there that feels exactly the way that guy does he just was stupid enough to open

1428
01:50:45,260 --> 01:50:46,260
his mouth.

1429
01:50:46,260 --> 01:50:49,940
So what does that do to the guy in his organization who's sitting there feeling really bad about

1430
01:50:49,940 --> 01:50:51,220
himself and depressed.

1431
01:50:51,220 --> 01:50:54,340
He sure the hell is not going to go seek any help because you're weak.

1432
01:50:54,340 --> 01:50:55,760
We've told that story.

1433
01:50:55,760 --> 01:51:00,240
So I put this slide together and then I followed it up with the medications that you're given

1434
01:51:00,240 --> 01:51:02,300
for cancer can kill you.

1435
01:51:02,300 --> 01:51:05,780
The medications that you're given for when you're dealing with mental health they can

1436
01:51:05,780 --> 01:51:10,620
also the number one side effect of at least the last dozen medications and I'm probably

1437
01:51:10,620 --> 01:51:13,940
understating it that Sean took was suicidal ideation.

1438
01:51:13,940 --> 01:51:18,620
I remember one time saying to the doctor did you get the damn memo about why my son's in

1439
01:51:18,620 --> 01:51:19,620
here.

1440
01:51:19,620 --> 01:51:23,380
He tried to kill himself and you're telling me the medication you're going to pour into

1441
01:51:23,380 --> 01:51:27,460
him has a side effect of he's going to think about killing himself.

1442
01:51:27,460 --> 01:51:29,500
What what am I missing in this story.

1443
01:51:29,500 --> 01:51:31,480
He said that's just the truth.

1444
01:51:31,480 --> 01:51:32,540
We have to tell you the truth.

1445
01:51:32,540 --> 01:51:38,020
That is the side effect and eventually then you end up that all you can do in either case

1446
01:51:38,020 --> 01:51:39,500
is to love them.

1447
01:51:39,500 --> 01:51:44,980
One thing I will tell you specifically about Sean that is the lack of Irish Catholic guilt

1448
01:51:44,980 --> 01:51:50,220
that both Eileen and I had was he knew we loved him even in the most dire situations when

1449
01:51:50,220 --> 01:51:51,220
I was upset.

1450
01:51:51,220 --> 01:51:52,540
I couldn't understand what was going on.

1451
01:51:52,540 --> 01:51:53,820
I always hugged him.

1452
01:51:53,820 --> 01:51:56,740
I always told him that I loved him no matter what.

1453
01:51:56,740 --> 01:52:01,020
And I can at least live with that fact that when he crossed over my dad was there waiting

1454
01:52:01,020 --> 01:52:02,020
for him.

1455
01:52:02,020 --> 01:52:04,080
It was his time and he knew his parents loved him.

1456
01:52:04,080 --> 01:52:07,660
You need to do that when somebody and we do a better job of that when somebody is dying

1457
01:52:07,660 --> 01:52:09,900
from cancer we tell them in those final days.

1458
01:52:09,900 --> 01:52:12,100
God I'm really sorry if I said anything to hurt you.

1459
01:52:12,100 --> 01:52:14,380
I was a stupid kid blah blah blah blah.

1460
01:52:14,380 --> 01:52:17,220
And I'll always miss you and I'll always love you.

1461
01:52:17,220 --> 01:52:20,180
We don't you may not get the chance with that when we're dealing on a mental health side.

1462
01:52:20,180 --> 01:52:26,260
And since I've done those two slides the difference when people will come up afterwards go you

1463
01:52:26,260 --> 01:52:27,860
know I I got to be honest with you Pat.

1464
01:52:27,860 --> 01:52:31,420
I didn't really get it get it about it being physical until you put those slides when I

1465
01:52:31,420 --> 01:52:34,020
went oh my God I got it.

1466
01:52:34,020 --> 01:52:36,260
The light bulb just went on.

1467
01:52:36,260 --> 01:52:40,980
And I'll fast forward that's in 2014 and 2016 I had every intention of retiring.

1468
01:52:40,980 --> 01:52:42,460
I was going to turn 60.

1469
01:52:42,460 --> 01:52:47,500
The oldest pub in Ireland is called Sean's Pub and Eileen and I were going to be sitting

1470
01:52:47,500 --> 01:52:51,820
in there and I was going to raise a pint of Guinness and go done.

1471
01:52:51,820 --> 01:52:58,460
In January of 2016 she was diagnosed with geoblastoma stage 4 brain cancer.

1472
01:52:58,460 --> 01:53:05,940
Inoperable nine tumors in her brain and no hope that she was ever going to get better.

1473
01:53:05,940 --> 01:53:11,340
And I remember sitting on the bed in our bedroom when the ER called and said you need to get

1474
01:53:11,340 --> 01:53:17,100
in here and just starting to sob and I was like we know didn't we know why didn't we

1475
01:53:17,100 --> 01:53:19,580
pick that.

1476
01:53:19,580 --> 01:53:23,500
And I always wonder did somebody whisper in my ear and go get ready because what you were

1477
01:53:23,500 --> 01:53:25,980
talking about about the happen and I watched it.

1478
01:53:25,980 --> 01:53:28,500
I watched her fight with the same courage as Sean.

1479
01:53:28,500 --> 01:53:33,860
I watched her start to waste away the way he did except the difference was with the

1480
01:53:33,860 --> 01:53:35,780
cancer you could see it.

1481
01:53:35,780 --> 01:53:41,060
You could never see it on Sean if he walked in a room but you could see it in the pain

1482
01:53:41,060 --> 01:53:46,260
and the struggle and the ultimate that I took a vow when I got married I was going to protect

1483
01:53:46,260 --> 01:53:51,820
my wife and I was going to protect our kids and I buried a wife and I buried a son and

1484
01:53:51,820 --> 01:53:58,180
I live with the fact that even though logically I can say these were diseases you're not God

1485
01:53:58,180 --> 01:53:59,180
you couldn't cure them.

1486
01:53:59,180 --> 01:54:02,060
I still live with the fact I didn't protect them.

1487
01:54:02,060 --> 01:54:06,300
Part of that CAPE struggle that I'll probably take to the grave until I get a chance to

1488
01:54:06,300 --> 01:54:11,620
go see them again but it makes it real for people and it made it real for me and when

1489
01:54:11,620 --> 01:54:18,140
I tie those journeys in now and the pain now everybody's like bump goes on and I feel like

1490
01:54:18,140 --> 01:54:22,220
I didn't want to sacrifice their lives but neither one of them died in vain.

1491
01:54:22,220 --> 01:54:27,780
They died to give back to keep that going so that somebody else may be more likely to

1492
01:54:27,780 --> 01:54:32,740
come forward in either arena but certainly hopefully in the mental health arena to go

1493
01:54:32,740 --> 01:54:36,820
I don't want to get to be terminal I want to get better.

1494
01:54:36,820 --> 01:54:38,060
I'm so sorry Pat.

1495
01:54:38,060 --> 01:54:45,300
I mean just again like I said the personal side alone is just devastating to hear your

1496
01:54:45,300 --> 01:54:50,020
story and then you add again you know a full career in the fire service.

1497
01:54:50,020 --> 01:54:54,940
What did you use personally for your own mental health?

1498
01:54:54,940 --> 01:54:58,320
You know losing Sean and then losing Eileen.

1499
01:54:58,320 --> 01:55:03,700
I can tell you that it was the second time I learned so obviously it was a whole lot

1500
01:55:03,700 --> 01:55:09,100
easier to talk about it and from the very beginning from diagnosis incredible support

1501
01:55:09,100 --> 01:55:15,220
from Eileen's family, the Madden family, huge family who came and supported her friends.

1502
01:55:15,220 --> 01:55:20,820
Literally we never ever had a time where she wasn't with once she became where she needed

1503
01:55:20,820 --> 01:55:26,060
bed and she needed wheelchair and whatever or there wasn't a friend that stayed in the

1504
01:55:26,060 --> 01:55:29,460
end with people staying overnight because that hurt my back lifting her and I couldn't

1505
01:55:29,460 --> 01:55:35,180
lift her anymore and the love and support and the constant communication.

1506
01:55:35,180 --> 01:55:39,500
My niece encouraged me she said you can't send out a hundred emails to all these people

1507
01:55:39,500 --> 01:55:41,540
so use Caring Bridge.

1508
01:55:41,540 --> 01:55:46,920
Use this vehicle to be able to just kind of educate people daily or weekly on how our

1509
01:55:46,920 --> 01:55:52,700
condition is and so I wrote and it was therapeutic for me as much as I would sob through what

1510
01:55:52,700 --> 01:55:58,260
I wrote it was like and people hung on to that they said it was invaluable to feel like

1511
01:55:58,260 --> 01:56:02,300
they were part of the journey because they felt helpless but the other part that was

1512
01:56:02,300 --> 01:56:05,780
absolutely the number one for me was my faith.

1513
01:56:05,780 --> 01:56:13,180
I truly believe like my picture of heaven James is my wife's got her arms around Sean

1514
01:56:13,180 --> 01:56:17,220
and they're both smiling and they're both healthy and they're really happy that they're

1515
01:56:17,220 --> 01:56:23,620
together in believing that they were somewhere else so I'll finish the story on an upbeat

1516
01:56:23,620 --> 01:56:27,140
what sounds like a downbeat but it's an upbeat for me and again it might be somebody listening

1517
01:56:27,140 --> 01:56:29,060
this may be what they need to hear.

1518
01:56:29,060 --> 01:56:34,020
So I shared the story about Sean Z and my dad so there's with a son getting married

1519
01:56:34,020 --> 01:56:38,980
Patrick in November and so the goal of the chemo and everything was to get Eileen to

1520
01:56:38,980 --> 01:56:42,140
the wedding and then after that it was all bets were off.

1521
01:56:42,140 --> 01:56:46,980
So we're 13 days away from the wedding and my son and my wonderful daughter future daughter-in-law

1522
01:56:46,980 --> 01:56:51,660
Abby came to see my wife and my son sat with her in the living room and I was in the kitchen

1523
01:56:51,660 --> 01:56:56,820
emotionally listening to this incredible discussion he's like mom if you got 13 days left in you

1524
01:56:56,820 --> 01:57:02,460
and she said I didn't fight this hard to not make that wedding so we literally were making

1525
01:57:02,460 --> 01:57:07,180
arrangements because the wedding was downstate to get a hotel room cleared out put a hospital

1526
01:57:07,180 --> 01:57:11,320
bed in it my brother-in-law Terry had had souped up her wheelchair with shamrocks and

1527
01:57:11,320 --> 01:57:16,060
green lights and we're gonna make this as positive as we could the very next day that

1528
01:57:16,060 --> 01:57:20,220
was Halloween next day on November 1st which in the Catholic Church is All Saints Day and

1529
01:57:20,220 --> 01:57:25,300
went out for a run and I had I have an old Walkman that Sean had my firefighters look

1530
01:57:25,300 --> 01:57:29,060
at that go what the hell is that chiefs pretty funny I'm like explained his story to go and

1531
01:57:29,060 --> 01:57:33,500
mostly when I hold it I feel him and but the batteries I hadn't paid the attention so I

1532
01:57:33,500 --> 01:57:38,020
lost all of stuff that was pre-programmed and so I'm furious as I'm getting ready to

1533
01:57:38,020 --> 01:57:42,300
do this run and and I'm trying to program stations in and the first station that comes

1534
01:57:42,300 --> 01:57:45,620
on is a religious station and now I'm even more pissed I'm like I don't want to list

1535
01:57:45,620 --> 01:57:50,180
any religious music I need something that's gonna get me through this run and it's and

1536
01:57:50,180 --> 01:57:53,820
I can't even quote it specifically I have no idea what the song was but all I remember

1537
01:57:53,820 --> 01:57:59,060
it says when you feel like you're powerless and you can't protect anymore dropped to your

1538
01:57:59,060 --> 01:58:03,420
knees and asked for help so literally in the middle of this forest preserve trail I dropped

1539
01:58:03,420 --> 01:58:07,700
on my knees and said God I don't have it I can't save her what am I gonna do what I've

1540
01:58:07,700 --> 01:58:13,260
done it again and got up change the channels finish my run come home I walk in and her

1541
01:58:13,260 --> 01:58:16,940
girlfriend was staying with her said there's been a change I go why didn't you call me

1542
01:58:16,940 --> 01:58:20,820
she said no no she's fine but there's been a change you need to go in and talk to her

1543
01:58:20,820 --> 01:58:24,900
so I did I walked in the bedroom and I said hey what's going on I hear there's a change

1544
01:58:24,900 --> 01:58:29,260
she said yeah I'm not gonna make the wedding when wait a minute we just had this conversation

1545
01:58:29,260 --> 01:58:33,620
last night and you said I'm yeah no you can tell people I'm gonna make my transition I

1546
01:58:33,620 --> 01:58:40,580
go what happened she said I saw Shawn I go where did you see she and she pointed to the

1547
01:58:40,580 --> 01:58:44,740
foot of the bed and I go how did he look and it had been ten years at this point she goes

1548
01:58:44,740 --> 01:58:51,600
Pat he was beaming he was healthy he was happy I was like okay that's great did he say something

1549
01:58:51,600 --> 01:58:57,780
to you and she said yeah he said mom I'm coming to get you and three days later she passed

1550
01:58:57,780 --> 01:59:02,420
and there's no doubt I held her hand when she took her last breath he had a hold of

1551
01:59:02,420 --> 01:59:09,140
the other hand and she went over with him and if I didn't believe my dad her and Shawn

1552
01:59:09,140 --> 01:59:13,980
all of them were someplace I'm thinking that whole thought about taking your life would

1553
01:59:13,980 --> 01:59:18,600
have come on my radar again and I can honestly say after Shawn died I had one of Eileen's

1554
01:59:18,600 --> 01:59:22,040
friends call me and said I just need to do what you tell people to do I'm gonna ask you

1555
01:59:22,040 --> 01:59:28,500
straight out are you thinking about killing yourself and I said no but if you told me

1556
01:59:28,500 --> 01:59:34,220
tomorrow I was gonna be dead in the morning I throw a party so that faith is what's kept

1557
01:59:34,220 --> 01:59:40,300
me going and then the support of friends and family and in feeling like I need to move

1558
01:59:40,300 --> 01:59:45,420
forward with my life and it's okay to be happy and have relationships and got me there but

1559
01:59:45,420 --> 01:59:50,180
in those darkest moments if I if I didn't have my faith I'd be screwed.

1560
01:59:50,180 --> 01:59:55,620
It's just such an incredibly powerful story and with both of them with Shawn and Eileen

1561
01:59:55,620 --> 02:00:00,620
and the effect that they had in their lives and then obviously the knock on effect that

1562
02:00:00,620 --> 02:00:04,860
we're having this conversation now it's gonna be listened to around the world around planet

1563
02:00:04,860 --> 02:00:12,380
Earth is just it's incredible and I had a gentleman on twice now Dr. BJ Miller who's

1564
02:00:12,380 --> 02:00:21,860
a hospice physician and he talks about the only time he really saw like a struggle before

1565
02:00:21,860 --> 02:00:28,740
someone would pass was if there was regret you know I didn't do enough with my life and

1566
02:00:28,740 --> 02:00:33,180
it seems like you know with Shawn seeing your father and then with Eileen seeing Shawn you

1567
02:00:33,180 --> 02:00:43,420
know how amazing that that was so apparent and so vivid in each of these two chapters

1568
02:00:43,420 --> 02:00:47,780
because I believe it I'm not you know of any specific organized faith but I think it takes

1569
02:00:47,780 --> 02:00:52,340
a certain amount of arrogance to think that we just manifest and then poof back in and

1570
02:00:52,340 --> 02:00:57,740
that's it this is all for nothing so I believe I mean there has to be somewhere else you

1571
02:00:57,740 --> 02:01:04,260
know we're an energy and I think that biologically I heard someone say that in three years every

1572
02:01:04,260 --> 02:01:10,540
single cell in the human body is new but the consciousness and spirit doesn't change you

1573
02:01:10,540 --> 02:01:15,460
don't every three years go oh now I'm you know this different person though so from

1574
02:01:15,460 --> 02:01:20,940
whatever your beliefs are I think there's so many powerful moments I've had you know

1575
02:01:20,940 --> 02:01:26,660
moments where that life's like my wife smelt my my grandfather's pipe smoke she didn't

1576
02:01:26,660 --> 02:01:30,620
even know he smoked a pipe you know that I've had all these things where where I've had

1577
02:01:30,620 --> 02:01:36,220
a similar experience and you know obviously it's it's not going to stop the pain of losing

1578
02:01:36,220 --> 02:01:41,000
your loved one but but to know especially like like Eileen was saying that Shawn is happy

1579
02:01:41,000 --> 02:01:46,640
now that she you know you see my grandfather passed away from cancer as well and at the

1580
02:01:46,640 --> 02:01:51,460
end you want them to go the body has betrayed them and you're like just you know let them

1581
02:01:51,460 --> 02:01:57,460
go let them be be free again so I mean as heart-wrenching as the story is it's a beautiful

1582
02:01:57,460 --> 02:02:03,600
beautiful story as well well and it gave me great comfort because we had so we had a wake

1583
02:02:03,600 --> 02:02:09,780
on a Monday a funeral on a Tuesday a wedding rehearsal dinner on a Friday and a wedding

1584
02:02:09,780 --> 02:02:18,100
on a Saturday and Eileen said to me the day before she passed she said you can't be sad

1585
02:02:18,100 --> 02:02:23,300
at that wedding everybody will watch you and they will cue off you and it's not fair to

1586
02:02:23,300 --> 02:02:28,580
Abby this year should have been all about her and it was all about me so this is what

1587
02:02:28,580 --> 02:02:31,940
I said honey I've been married to you for 35 years and you've asked some pretty difficult

1588
02:02:31,940 --> 02:02:36,500
things but this one tops the cake I don't know that I can do that and she said I'll

1589
02:02:36,500 --> 02:02:41,340
help you I go you're gonna have to because I don't think I can do it and we made it through

1590
02:02:41,340 --> 02:02:48,140
what was an amazing wedding both families incredibly I mean my sons-in-law's are amazing

1591
02:02:48,140 --> 02:02:52,960
people everybody jumped in because they knew what this meant this day meant all of Eileen's

1592
02:02:52,960 --> 02:03:00,740
friends were like we are not going to let this day be sad because she is free and happy

1593
02:03:00,740 --> 02:03:06,380
and she loved the dance she married the wrong guy because I can't dance worth it everybody

1594
02:03:06,380 --> 02:03:10,180
and that Florida DJ said to me goes I've never seen this kind of energy I've been doing weddings

1595
02:03:10,180 --> 02:03:13,780
for 20 years and the energy out here is just not normal and I go yeah that's because she's

1596
02:03:13,780 --> 02:03:21,420
out there so it really does keep you going and it's what drives me when I do the talks

1597
02:03:21,420 --> 02:03:25,500
to just go people go I don't know how you can get up there do that I go I don't I go

1598
02:03:25,500 --> 02:03:29,180
I've got all those firefighters who lost their lives standing behind me going you need to

1599
02:03:29,180 --> 02:03:35,100
talk about this and I've got my dad my son and my wife who used to stand in the back

1600
02:03:35,100 --> 02:03:39,700
every time I did the presentation she was the lady in white who stood that's what she

1601
02:03:39,700 --> 02:03:44,300
did go I've got them all now but they're behind me and they're going you can do this and that's

1602
02:03:44,300 --> 02:03:46,580
how the message ends up getting there.

1603
02:03:46,580 --> 02:03:52,940
Yeah and I don't think there's any way to honor the fallen other than to use that for

1604
02:03:52,940 --> 02:03:57,380
change you know whether it's cancer research or mental health or you know whatever it is

1605
02:03:57,380 --> 02:04:03,040
and I talk about that a lot like if you bury that under the carpet you've dishonored the

1606
02:04:03,040 --> 02:04:09,420
very memory of that person but if you use that death as a learning experience like we

1607
02:04:09,420 --> 02:04:14,900
lose a firefighter in a class we had two firefighters killed in Orange County and you know there's

1608
02:04:14,900 --> 02:04:21,540
an actual entire bill now in their name to remind us to pull seating when we go in and

1609
02:04:21,540 --> 02:04:25,940
also a placard that shows the construction of a building you know so that's how you honor

1610
02:04:25,940 --> 02:04:30,300
the fallen is you keep their memory alive and then if it's something that you can change

1611
02:04:30,300 --> 02:04:35,540
and obviously in their memory they were both a huge part of the mental health journey that

1612
02:04:35,540 --> 02:04:40,660
you've been on and teaching so many of us that's how we do it but if we ignore it the

1613
02:04:40,660 --> 02:04:45,300
same way as if we ignore the mental health issues that we have not only are we not changing

1614
02:04:45,300 --> 02:04:50,980
anything but you're it's a huge disrespect and dishonor to the people that we did lose.

1615
02:04:50,980 --> 02:04:57,100
I couldn't agree more I think it's basically saying that if you don't do something with

1616
02:04:57,100 --> 02:05:02,780
that loss and the tragedy you've kind of written off the purpose of their lives and the purpose

1617
02:05:02,780 --> 02:05:07,980
of what they went through as opposed to going their lives were incredibly meaningful whether

1618
02:05:07,980 --> 02:05:13,620
it's a child only lives to five or whether it's a mom who lives to 95 you're taking their

1619
02:05:13,620 --> 02:05:17,460
lives and going they went the path they were supposed to go you were supposed to learn

1620
02:05:17,460 --> 02:05:22,420
from them and if you didn't shame on you because they did their job you're not doing yours

1621
02:05:22,420 --> 02:05:27,660
and if you carry it on then they do have eternal life even here on earth because people I always

1622
02:05:27,660 --> 02:05:31,940
say at the end of my talk I won't know whether you did a damn thing about what I said when

1623
02:05:31,940 --> 02:05:36,980
you walk out here I most of you I will never see again but I go they'll know I said so

1624
02:05:36,980 --> 02:05:42,220
you're part of Sean and Eileen's team and I expect you to go out there and be disciples

1625
02:05:42,220 --> 02:05:46,140
about what they were doing and if you do that I'll be fine because you don't want to piss

1626
02:05:46,140 --> 02:05:47,140
them off.

1627
02:05:47,140 --> 02:05:54,420
Beautiful well speaking of you know the change you and I actually met at the Rosecrans symposium

1628
02:05:54,420 --> 02:06:00,100
with Dan DeGrasse and Dana was the one that introduced us so I'd just love to hear your

1629
02:06:00,100 --> 02:06:03,740
insight on that because I thought it was an incredible event and I want to give it some

1630
02:06:03,740 --> 02:06:07,740
more exposure in this conversation as well.

1631
02:06:07,740 --> 02:06:12,620
What I found and so here's the irony I told you about that Sean went to a treatment facility

1632
02:06:12,620 --> 02:06:17,340
when he had the drug addiction well it was Rosecrans which is where the Florian program

1633
02:06:17,340 --> 02:06:22,780
currently exists and Dan reached out to me another one of those meant to be's was we

1634
02:06:22,780 --> 02:06:26,740
were trying to put together the Chicago Fire Department had a wonderful family focused

1635
02:06:26,740 --> 02:06:30,340
day where they would invite everybody from the department and their significant others

1636
02:06:30,340 --> 02:06:34,820
and families to have kind of a festival atmosphere but have a number of vendors who were there

1637
02:06:34,820 --> 02:06:39,540
that provided mental health services for families so they could kind of just pick up a card

1638
02:06:39,540 --> 02:06:43,580
anonymously or hear about it and they needed to follow up they could and we were trying

1639
02:06:43,580 --> 02:06:47,980
to replicate it in the suburbs and as usual I thought things were a lot simpler than they

1640
02:06:47,980 --> 02:06:52,960
were and so Dan got invited to come to this meeting and I had just used his video where

1641
02:06:52,960 --> 02:06:59,140
they had lost a number of Chicago firefighters in one year to suicide and Dan had gone on

1642
02:06:59,140 --> 02:07:03,620
TV and had shared the pain of this and also the struggles his dad had gone through and

1643
02:07:03,620 --> 02:07:08,020
I thought God is a powerful guy so I would use the video in Sean's class and all of a

1644
02:07:08,020 --> 02:07:11,460
sudden we're having this meeting this guy walks in and I go I know you and he's like

1645
02:07:11,460 --> 02:07:16,500
well I don't know you well I use your video and it's like he sat down within five minutes

1646
02:07:16,500 --> 02:07:20,300
but you know what you guys think this is really easy don't you this family focused day is

1647
02:07:20,300 --> 02:07:24,240
tough and we started talking about things and then we got invited out to the National

1648
02:07:24,240 --> 02:07:28,980
Fire Academy and it started talking about mental health and the challenges and Dan was

1649
02:07:28,980 --> 02:07:33,700
on this mission that he was going to have somebody a treatment facility that was going

1650
02:07:33,700 --> 02:07:39,100
to have a first responder a firefighter specific program and the next thing there's this reach

1651
02:07:39,100 --> 02:07:43,300
out to me going would you ever want to sit on a committee that would be part of this

1652
02:07:43,300 --> 02:07:47,700
and I'm like oh god that's perfect that's what we need it's at a place called Rosecrans

1653
02:07:47,700 --> 02:07:53,620
I'm going where like Rosecrans I went do you know where that is I go yeah I know right

1654
02:07:53,620 --> 02:07:59,860
where that is and I always say that was meant to put our paths together and so the symposium

1655
02:07:59,860 --> 02:08:04,940
that that Rosecrans sponsors and and talks about and now there are a number of treatment

1656
02:08:04,940 --> 02:08:12,260
facilities that are that are turning up the IAFF has an incredibly powerful one and others.

1657
02:08:12,260 --> 02:08:17,140
The program is identified to bring people in who are interested in doing peer support

1658
02:08:17,140 --> 02:08:20,180
to bring counselors in and are interested in going into this field because believe it

1659
02:08:20,180 --> 02:08:23,700
or not I've talked to some counselors it goes I wouldn't touch you guys with a 10-foot pole

1660
02:08:23,700 --> 02:08:27,940
I respect the fact that you're right we got to understand your culture but your culture

1661
02:08:27,940 --> 02:08:33,700
is so complicated and frightening to me I would need my own constant therapist to sit

1662
02:08:33,700 --> 02:08:37,380
and listen to you the stories of the trauma your people go through on a regular basis

1663
02:08:37,380 --> 02:08:41,100
well good I respect your honesty and we don't want you treating our people because that's

1664
02:08:41,100 --> 02:08:46,980
exactly the problem so so Dan brings people together that have the passion they want to

1665
02:08:46,980 --> 02:08:51,100
be involved in this that tell the story mine's more like an awareness like I said I got a

1666
02:08:51,100 --> 02:08:56,060
degree in psychology and that it has nothing to do with any of this but so there's an awareness

1667
02:08:56,060 --> 02:09:01,420
then you bring the people who've got the passion for it like you do they've got the communication

1668
02:09:01,420 --> 02:09:06,460
and ability to spread the messages you do then brings the trained people in to go hey

1669
02:09:06,460 --> 02:09:10,460
this is what this disease is really like and here's the physical components of it here's

1670
02:09:10,460 --> 02:09:15,020
how you can treat it here's you can do with your EAP here's how you can put a peer support

1671
02:09:15,020 --> 02:09:19,940
group together and instead of going this elephant's too big we can't take a bite out of it those

1672
02:09:19,940 --> 02:09:24,980
symposiums provide the way to say here's how you eat the elephant over the next five years

1673
02:09:24,980 --> 02:09:28,500
here's what the little piece to eat today and here's the PC tomorrow and it makes it

1674
02:09:28,500 --> 02:09:33,940
much more objective and doesn't make seem like it's overwhelming and finally they bring

1675
02:09:33,940 --> 02:09:40,960
in people who just inspire you that tell their stories of resilience and you go by God you

1676
02:09:40,960 --> 02:09:45,220
made it and another one of these reasons that what you went through is not going to go in

1677
02:09:45,220 --> 02:09:48,100
vain because I'm going to take your story and parts of it and I'm going to help fight

1678
02:09:48,100 --> 02:09:53,420
my fight too and the more I always think of them and I think of it only in the United

1679
02:09:53,420 --> 02:09:56,980
States now but it could be around the world when you have those little pins on a map where

1680
02:09:56,980 --> 02:10:00,180
people usually put it on where they've gone to be case I'm like wouldn't be wonderful

1681
02:10:00,180 --> 02:10:04,540
if the map of the United States was covered in pins and every one of those pins was a

1682
02:10:04,540 --> 02:10:08,620
person in an area that was fighting for the mental health of their families and their

1683
02:10:08,620 --> 02:10:12,660
first responders we would kick the shit out of this a lot faster than what we're doing

1684
02:10:12,660 --> 02:10:17,820
right now yeah I couldn't agree more and Rose Kranz was I mean I would say it's the best

1685
02:10:17,820 --> 02:10:22,340
conference I've been to I've been to some great fire conferences but like you said that

1686
02:10:22,340 --> 02:10:28,860
that combination of of true clinicians people with incredibly powerful stories you know

1687
02:10:28,860 --> 02:10:38,540
Sarah Sarah Yankee her her piece was like a comedy show it was fantastic so but it was

1688
02:10:38,540 --> 02:10:43,660
just so much fun and in between everyone's you know talking and yeah I mean if for everyone

1689
02:10:43,660 --> 02:10:48,740
listening if you haven't been yet I know it changes from place to place I couldn't recommend

1690
02:10:48,740 --> 02:10:53,980
it more it was so so powerful and obviously you and I met I've got Sally coming on very

1691
02:10:53,980 --> 02:10:59,020
soon and then some more people down the road as well so such a great networking tool and

1692
02:10:59,020 --> 02:11:02,620
you know a group of people that are all sitting side by side going we get it and we're going

1693
02:11:02,620 --> 02:11:08,020
to be part of the change yeah and in the other thing is always that has really inspired me

1694
02:11:08,020 --> 02:11:12,900
was looking around at the age of people in the group because you've got young people

1695
02:11:12,900 --> 02:11:17,500
who are are passionate about this now and go well why can't we and that's the same thing

1696
02:11:17,500 --> 02:11:21,300
we went through when people tried to introduce physical fitness it's the same thing we went

1697
02:11:21,300 --> 02:11:24,780
through when people tried to introduce that you're going to do cancer prevention it's

1698
02:11:24,780 --> 02:11:29,420
the same thing now in the mental health as you've it's got to be driven from top to bottom

1699
02:11:29,420 --> 02:11:33,660
throughout an organization but that young next generation if they go we are going to

1700
02:11:33,660 --> 02:11:37,220
normalize this and we're going to tackle it and we're going to put it in a box and do

1701
02:11:37,220 --> 02:11:41,900
what we need to do with it and everybody will understand what they need to do then we will

1702
02:11:41,900 --> 02:11:46,460
move as far ahead as we have with physical fitness and as far as we're moving with cancer

1703
02:11:46,460 --> 02:11:50,940
it won't be this anomaly of yeah well we can't tackle that one yeah you can because the people

1704
02:11:50,940 --> 02:11:54,540
who care they're driving it and they are not going to stop until they make sure that they

1705
02:11:54,540 --> 02:11:57,980
truly are taking care of their brothers and sisters the way they should.

1706
02:11:57,980 --> 02:12:01,820
Yeah I couldn't agree more there's some pissed off firefighters out there and I'm certainly

1707
02:12:01,820 --> 02:12:03,860
one of them.

1708
02:12:03,860 --> 02:12:06,660
Okay so I want to transition to some closing questions because we've been talking for well

1709
02:12:06,660 --> 02:12:11,820
over two hours so thank you so much for being so generous and I just wanted you know the

1710
02:12:11,820 --> 02:12:18,620
story to unfold in its I guess fullness would that be the right word but so I'm glad that

1711
02:12:18,620 --> 02:12:23,140
we were able to really expand on all the areas and you were able to tell Sean and Eileen's

1712
02:12:23,140 --> 02:12:25,300
story properly.

1713
02:12:25,300 --> 02:12:29,240
So the first question I love to ask is there a book that you recommend it can be what we've

1714
02:12:29,240 --> 02:12:32,380
discussed or something completely different?

1715
02:12:32,380 --> 02:12:40,580
You know I guess for resiliency one of the books that I read was Plan B and it deals

1716
02:12:40,580 --> 02:12:47,300
with it's the story of a young mom and wife who lost her husband they went away on a vacation

1717
02:12:47,300 --> 02:12:53,700
and they passed away her husband passed away suddenly on this vacation and her journey

1718
02:12:53,700 --> 02:12:58,440
of going through and dealing with the therapy of how to get through this and what to do

1719
02:12:58,440 --> 02:13:02,540
in the psychologist sitting with her and go well give me the ideal night that you would

1720
02:13:02,540 --> 02:13:07,860
have tonight and she was like well we have parent-teacher conference and my husband would

1721
02:13:07,860 --> 02:13:11,100
be sitting next to me and we'd be in the room and we hear how wonderful our children are

1722
02:13:11,100 --> 02:13:17,660
doing and well that's good that's Plan A. Plan A is not possible anymore so what's your

1723
02:13:17,660 --> 02:13:27,460
Plan B and I think for me that was a light bulb that went on and said okay you can't

1724
02:13:27,460 --> 02:13:32,260
all those things that were and you were blessed to have blessed to have Sean for almost 21

1725
02:13:32,260 --> 02:13:38,820
years I was blessed to have 35 years of marriage to a saint who lived with me instead of trying

1726
02:13:38,820 --> 02:13:43,260
to hang on to that because I can't anymore I've got to be okay with the fact that I'll

1727
02:13:43,260 --> 02:13:49,220
see him later but I can't I don't have that now is what's my Plan B and for most of us

1728
02:13:49,220 --> 02:13:55,460
we don't have a Plan B especially with life and so being open to there are other things

1729
02:13:55,460 --> 02:13:58,980
that you can do there are other ways that you can love there are other ways that you

1730
02:13:58,980 --> 02:14:05,540
can move forward a lot of people that sit in my position are told you need to move on

1731
02:14:05,540 --> 02:14:11,860
and I saw a TED talk in a blanket now on the young lady's name but she had gone through

1732
02:14:11,860 --> 02:14:15,420
a horrific where she lost a young husband she was pregnant at the time lost the baby

1733
02:14:15,420 --> 02:14:19,780
lost her mom or somebody recently and but she was remarried now and very happy four

1734
02:14:19,780 --> 02:14:23,020
years later and she said you know I got really freaking sick and tired of people tell me

1735
02:14:23,020 --> 02:14:28,340
you need to move on because she was moving on to me meant that I left behind every good

1736
02:14:28,340 --> 02:14:33,140
thing I had she said my second husband fell in love with me because of how my first husband

1737
02:14:33,140 --> 02:14:40,400
and I developed what he did to be a part of me that's why he fell in love with me in so

1738
02:14:40,400 --> 02:14:44,340
I'm moving forward because I need to when I move forward means I can bring all those

1739
02:14:44,340 --> 02:14:49,860
good things with me and I'm gonna do that and I went between Plan B and that video it

1740
02:14:49,860 --> 02:14:55,360
gave me permission to go I need to move forward and I've always got to be thinking what's

1741
02:14:55,360 --> 02:15:01,660
your plan B so those are probably the most powerful things that hit me yeah no it sounds

1742
02:15:01,660 --> 02:15:08,180
like a great book for everyone to read and the concept is you know spot on I mean in

1743
02:15:08,180 --> 02:15:13,340
many things in life you know we want it to be one way but that's not always the case

1744
02:15:13,340 --> 02:15:17,220
I mean I would love for my family unit to be together I don't want to be with that particular

1745
02:15:17,220 --> 02:15:21,020
woman anymore but I hate the fact that my son has to bounce from house to house but

1746
02:15:21,020 --> 02:15:25,940
the reality is that's not the way it's going to be anymore and so yeah I mean you can apply

1747
02:15:25,940 --> 02:15:28,500
that to so many elements of life.

1748
02:15:28,500 --> 02:15:29,820
Absolutely.

1749
02:15:29,820 --> 02:15:34,540
The other one I recently read was Dare to Lead with Brene Brown and it talked a lot

1750
02:15:34,540 --> 02:15:38,940
about vulnerability and about and this is more in the leadership side but it absolutely

1751
02:15:38,940 --> 02:15:43,820
fits into the mental health realm of looking at yourself in the mirror and realizing that

1752
02:15:43,820 --> 02:15:47,300
you're not perfect and that you've got things that you need to work on and that those aren't

1753
02:15:47,300 --> 02:15:51,820
shortcomings that they're just part of the human condition and that it's okay to expose

1754
02:15:51,820 --> 02:15:56,860
that to your people and I think what it enforced for me was I should have been more human to

1755
02:15:56,860 --> 02:16:01,460
my folks when Sean was going through what he went through and if I had been I would

1756
02:16:01,460 --> 02:16:06,060
have as I said I think created a much more healthy culture about what mental health was

1757
02:16:06,060 --> 02:16:10,820
it didn't have to be a tragedy in order for that door to open and so that's another one

1758
02:16:10,820 --> 02:16:13,620
that I thought was I just finished recently was pretty powerful.

1759
02:16:13,620 --> 02:16:18,500
Yeah I'd love to try and get her on one day I know she does podcasts but just a select

1760
02:16:18,500 --> 02:16:23,420
few but as this grows I'm hoping that one day I'll be able to lure her onto the show

1761
02:16:23,420 --> 02:16:24,420
as well.

1762
02:16:24,420 --> 02:16:28,420
That's pretty cool I think you guys would be a great combination from what I read.

1763
02:16:28,420 --> 02:16:31,540
Yeah we definitely have a good discussion I'm sure.

1764
02:16:31,540 --> 02:16:36,620
So same question but a movie now what's one of your favorite movies?

1765
02:16:36,620 --> 02:16:42,900
And I think I hit on it well two and again I'm a sappy guy and I love baseball so the

1766
02:16:42,900 --> 02:16:49,060
natural from that standpoint of the one person can have even when the entire crowd is you

1767
02:16:49,060 --> 02:16:53,700
look like you're the only one in the crowd that believes it if you stand up for it it

1768
02:16:53,700 --> 02:16:59,020
can have an incredible impact on not just a person but maybe an entire situation so

1769
02:16:59,020 --> 02:17:03,100
don't ever sell yourself short I always it drives me crazy and I jump people right away

1770
02:17:03,100 --> 02:17:05,940
when they say well I'm just a firefighter I'm like what do you think I am?

1771
02:17:05,940 --> 02:17:11,140
I go that's what I am too I go my rank happens to be chief Eileen would always introduce

1772
02:17:11,140 --> 02:17:14,500
me at family parties and somebody would go what's your husband do for a living he's

1773
02:17:14,500 --> 02:17:17,780
firefighter and then like an hour later they go hey you didn't tell me he was the fire

1774
02:17:17,780 --> 02:17:23,780
chief she goes that's not what he does that's what he's called in big huge difference so

1775
02:17:23,780 --> 02:17:29,300
that one really resonates with me now about but stand up so other people won't fail and

1776
02:17:29,300 --> 02:17:36,020
the other one honestly is field of dreams it's like you are living this pain and sometimes

1777
02:17:36,020 --> 02:17:41,380
you've got a there's a quote in actually in Vinay Brown's book about you know you've got

1778
02:17:41,380 --> 02:17:48,220
to own the story and owning that pain and getting to a point of where you can take it

1779
02:17:48,220 --> 02:17:53,700
and make it into a positive is the other thing so when people walk I mean I always I know

1780
02:17:53,700 --> 02:17:56,740
what's gonna happen at the end of that movie and I always ball because I think about yeah

1781
02:17:56,740 --> 02:18:00,740
would I love to play catch with my dad one more time what an incredible thing that would

1782
02:18:00,740 --> 02:18:07,020
be for me just for me but it also led me to that hope of yeah there's there is something

1783
02:18:07,020 --> 02:18:12,020
out there that you don't know and you can't see but just because you can't you can hang

1784
02:18:12,020 --> 02:18:18,020
on to that and it can drive you to do positive things and you're gonna go through pain try

1785
02:18:18,020 --> 02:18:23,380
to own the pain try to make as positive as you can out of that and then keep pushing

1786
02:18:23,380 --> 02:18:29,860
forward and you will impact people that you never know that you did until it's all over

1787
02:18:29,860 --> 02:18:33,820
with it's how we always listen to unfortunately that you can't actually have your wake while

1788
02:18:33,820 --> 02:18:39,500
you're here because every time I've been to awake I've heard a family say I was told an

1789
02:18:39,500 --> 02:18:45,940
amazing story I never knew about the impact so and so in my family had on somebody we

1790
02:18:45,940 --> 02:18:49,900
all have that it's just a matter of you put yourself out there in order to do it you never

1791
02:18:49,900 --> 02:18:52,140
know how many you're gonna impact.

1792
02:18:52,140 --> 02:18:57,280
I agree and that movie build it they will come I mean that phrase is so pertinent you're

1793
02:18:57,280 --> 02:19:03,580
staring at this abyss and you have the burning desire to change mental health physical health

1794
02:19:03,580 --> 02:19:09,540
fitness you know there's something in your kids school whatever it is when you take that

1795
02:19:09,540 --> 02:19:14,460
first step you're not gonna have unless you're the rock you're not gonna have a million people

1796
02:19:14,460 --> 02:19:20,780
suddenly react to it one of my friends Chad who was on the show he started doing what

1797
02:19:20,780 --> 02:19:26,300
he calls recovery ward and he does a class in a CrossFit gym for people that are recovering

1798
02:19:26,300 --> 02:19:30,180
and you know he was down that journey now he's been clean for well over a year and you

1799
02:19:30,180 --> 02:19:34,060
know he did the first one and I think there was like five people there you know the next

1800
02:19:34,060 --> 02:19:38,180
one is and again firstly you're impacting the five it doesn't matter how many there

1801
02:19:38,180 --> 02:19:44,460
are but trusting that if you are doing something good in the world you know the initial impact

1802
02:19:44,460 --> 02:19:48,660
may not be encouraging but just believe in it and build it they will come if you keep

1803
02:19:48,660 --> 02:19:51,540
pushing it will make a difference.

1804
02:19:51,540 --> 02:19:56,540
Yeah absolutely I do think that last scene when you see all those lights coming in you're

1805
02:19:56,540 --> 02:20:01,100
just like okay what are those lights those are all people and lives who are searching

1806
02:20:01,100 --> 02:20:06,340
and they're searching to have something they can hold on to that they can move in a positive

1807
02:20:06,340 --> 02:20:10,660
direction and that's I think that's what our message is for the fire services you can do

1808
02:20:10,660 --> 02:20:15,820
it you can be that one person you can start that movement and the people you're gonna

1809
02:20:15,820 --> 02:20:20,200
save you may not ever know it's kind of like doing public education you do all these public

1810
02:20:20,200 --> 02:20:25,420
education and the children who don't get hit by a car the families who do get out the people

1811
02:20:25,420 --> 02:20:31,580
who do have smoked it we never really know who numbers wise we say but that's not important

1812
02:20:31,580 --> 02:20:36,180
we know we're doing it and this fits right into that same wheelhouse to me.

1813
02:20:36,180 --> 02:20:40,180
Absolutely all right well then on the movie theme is there a documentary that you've seen

1814
02:20:40,180 --> 02:20:42,180
that you love?

1815
02:20:42,180 --> 02:20:51,540
Oh boy I didn't think about that.

1816
02:20:51,540 --> 02:20:57,740
Wow I'm blanking at this point I'm sure there has been but I'm kind of emotionally spent

1817
02:20:57,740 --> 02:20:58,980
at this point of my brain.

1818
02:20:58,980 --> 02:21:02,540
No no no no problem you already gave me two movies that's fine.

1819
02:21:02,540 --> 02:21:06,040
Okay so then the next question is there a person that you recommend to come on this

1820
02:21:06,040 --> 02:21:11,980
podcast as a guest to speak to the first responders of military of the world?

1821
02:21:11,980 --> 02:21:18,580
Well you've had Dan on who would be the first one that I would absolutely be talking about

1822
02:21:18,580 --> 02:21:25,020
the Illinois Fire Service Institute the director there is Colonel Royal Mortenson he would

1823
02:21:25,020 --> 02:21:29,940
really be a powerful person to talk to because when he put together when he took over there

1824
02:21:29,940 --> 02:21:35,260
in 2012 one of the challenges we hit him with was we do all this leadership training at

1825
02:21:35,260 --> 02:21:39,180
the Institute and it's amazing all these fire officer certifications but really we don't

1826
02:21:39,180 --> 02:21:43,380
really teach people how to lead we don't talk about when the guy walks in and says you know

1827
02:21:43,380 --> 02:21:46,820
my wife just filed for divorce we don't talk about how to handle the problems that really

1828
02:21:46,820 --> 02:21:52,180
are the big problems in the firehouse and he put together this amazing program based

1829
02:21:52,180 --> 02:21:58,060
kind of on truly on what he did for training in the military and one of the components

1830
02:21:58,060 --> 02:22:02,200
that I kind of pushed back on after it was put together was there's not enough mental

1831
02:22:02,200 --> 02:22:05,560
health in here he's like geez pal will you slow down I just need to kind of crawl before

1832
02:22:05,560 --> 02:22:10,140
I start walking it's coming I've been and he became a true believer and has built this

1833
02:22:10,140 --> 02:22:16,660
great training room resiliency model not just now in that class but has built it into all

1834
02:22:16,660 --> 02:22:21,140
sorts of different classes like rope rescue or whatever you're still gonna get a component

1835
02:22:21,140 --> 02:22:24,780
of it even like what the hell does that have to do with rope rescue you're gonna get it

1836
02:22:24,780 --> 02:22:29,740
no matter what and some standalone things chief James Moore is now running that program

1837
02:22:29,740 --> 02:22:34,580
and it's just kicking butt and it's powerful for me to see because he literally called

1838
02:22:34,580 --> 02:22:40,060
me two days after Eileen passed and he knew Eileen and said hey you know we talked about

1839
02:22:40,060 --> 02:22:43,660
I thought the time he's just right I'm gonna make that happen and he has been an incredible

1840
02:22:43,660 --> 02:22:50,100
advocate powerful speaker a powerful history in the military and just has done amazing

1841
02:22:50,100 --> 02:22:54,060
stuff for the fire service and he'll be the first to tell you and it said I struggled

1842
02:22:54,060 --> 02:22:59,220
with looking at mental health the way you do by the way I was trained and everything

1843
02:22:59,220 --> 02:23:03,820
he goes but I get it and I see what needs to be done and I'm doing something about it

1844
02:23:03,820 --> 02:23:08,060
so he would be somebody I would certainly recommend you would enjoy speaking him he's

1845
02:23:08,060 --> 02:23:11,140
just a great man on top of the other things he's accomplished.

1846
02:23:11,140 --> 02:23:15,140
Excellent well thank you I'd love to absolutely love to.

1847
02:23:15,140 --> 02:23:18,700
Okay so the last thing before we talk about where people can find you is what do you do

1848
02:23:18,700 --> 02:23:21,240
to decompress?

1849
02:23:21,240 --> 02:23:26,420
So I was a runner that was really really important to me and then after Eileen passed the back

1850
02:23:26,420 --> 02:23:30,960
doctor was like no you're done with that he ran a couple of marathons and I really liked

1851
02:23:30,960 --> 02:23:36,140
to go when I was hurting so bad during her disease I would just go out for a run cry

1852
02:23:36,140 --> 02:23:41,700
and pray pretty much so like you can't do that which really kind of depressed me so

1853
02:23:41,700 --> 02:23:47,700
I had a friend of mine who's become an incredibly important person in my life who said have

1854
02:23:47,700 --> 02:23:52,940
you ever ridden and they go you know I'm like fifth grade like riding a bike and like no

1855
02:23:52,940 --> 02:23:57,380
like ride like you can challenge yourself physically riding it doesn't and it won't

1856
02:23:57,380 --> 02:24:01,700
take the impact on your back and whatever so she started me on and doing you know because

1857
02:24:01,700 --> 02:24:04,660
she said you're dumb enough that you're gonna go out there the first time ride 25 miles

1858
02:24:04,660 --> 02:24:08,380
not real smart with your back so let's do this in incremental and she kind of trained

1859
02:24:08,380 --> 02:24:15,180
me into doing it so now I ride and it's it's unfortunately the one there no noise not conducive

1860
02:24:15,180 --> 02:24:20,660
to that year round but I do that and it does give me some of that freedom or I'm out there

1861
02:24:20,660 --> 02:24:25,420
I'm in the wind I'm in the air I can fit the date I just want to act like I'm 62 and pedal

1862
02:24:25,420 --> 02:24:30,380
along at four miles an hour I can or if I want to pretend I'm 25 for you know 30 seconds

1863
02:24:30,380 --> 02:24:36,980
I could push it and it I can feel it when I'm done I feel like okay so the physical

1864
02:24:36,980 --> 02:24:41,540
fitness is for me is still the best thing that I can do it when it's in the winter like

1865
02:24:41,540 --> 02:24:45,220
now I go upstairs in that stationary bike in the gym and it's as boring as hell but

1866
02:24:45,220 --> 02:24:50,900
I try to give myself different challenges to do in lifting weights and so the physical

1867
02:24:50,900 --> 02:24:56,420
part is when I miss that I can tell like if I'm on the road and I miss it and even if

1868
02:24:56,420 --> 02:25:00,820
just for a couple of days I'm more crabby and I don't have the energy and I and I'll

1869
02:25:00,820 --> 02:25:05,020
reach out and do that when I'm struggling and that has always been my my go-to.

1870
02:25:05,020 --> 02:25:10,580
Brilliant now I need to send you a video the foundation training I talked about that I

1871
02:25:10,580 --> 02:25:15,980
fixed my back with is incredible actually one of the most famous athletes that swore

1872
02:25:15,980 --> 02:25:21,500
by it was Lance Armstrong so you know big cyclist but Kelly Slater I mean loads and

1873
02:25:21,500 --> 02:25:25,660
loads of very well-known people really really very simple practice you basically just stand

1874
02:25:25,660 --> 02:25:31,220
there and do do a series of poses and you do it for literally 10-15 minutes but I'll

1875
02:25:31,220 --> 02:25:35,660
send that to you because that was absolutely no problem it was a game changer with my back

1876
02:25:35,660 --> 02:25:40,380
so I will send that when we're done so then the very last thing then so if people want

1877
02:25:40,380 --> 02:25:44,260
to reach out to you where can they find you online?

1878
02:25:44,260 --> 02:25:48,820
Absolutely the easiest thing right now and we're actually I'm working with somebody that

1879
02:25:48,820 --> 02:25:53,180
wants to put together a I've always been real reticent about hey I'm nobody special so it's

1880
02:25:53,180 --> 02:25:57,060
like well you should have your own web page you should have your own you know and I haven't

1881
02:25:57,060 --> 02:26:00,380
I haven't done that and it's my own fault I've kind of gone no oh it's there's a lot

1882
02:26:00,380 --> 02:26:05,060
more important people that need to be reached out to than me and so somebody said well you

1883
02:26:05,060 --> 02:26:08,460
should put together a web page so we're kind of working on it but right now honestly the

1884
02:26:08,460 --> 02:26:14,980
easiest way to get to me is to just email me and I get questions all the time it'll

1885
02:26:14,980 --> 02:26:19,220
it's where people reach out and ask if they wanted somebody to speak or if they're looking

1886
02:26:19,220 --> 02:26:23,340
for a policy in their department or just looking for a little bit of information or to teach

1887
02:26:23,340 --> 02:26:27,580
a completely different class not everything that I do is is is on the mental health some

1888
02:26:27,580 --> 02:26:33,380
is just basic leadership of which that's a big part is I just had them email me so so

1889
02:26:33,380 --> 02:26:42,140
my email address the personal one is P Kenny K E N N Y I as in Isaac F as in Frank C as

1890
02:26:42,140 --> 02:26:49,580
in Charles A as in Adam at gmail.com so P Kenny I F C A at gmail.com and for now that's

1891
02:26:49,580 --> 02:26:52,860
the best way until everything else kind of gets up and running and then I'll have another

1892
02:26:52,860 --> 02:26:56,020
way for them to reach out.

1893
02:26:56,020 --> 02:27:01,780
Excellent thank you well I just want to say thank you again it's been two and a half hours

1894
02:27:01,780 --> 02:27:07,780
and you know we talked before I'm very cognizant and you know there's yourself Lionel Crowe

1895
02:27:07,780 --> 02:27:12,420
there was another person every time you are going and traveling and standing in front

1896
02:27:12,420 --> 02:27:17,540
of a group and telling your story as much of an effect as it's having as you know as

1897
02:27:17,540 --> 02:27:22,100
we talked about it is taking a piece of you you know and it's one of those things where

1898
02:27:22,100 --> 02:27:27,060
as an audience member you're kind of looking like it's in a way there must be a part of

1899
02:27:27,060 --> 02:27:32,380
it that's pulling you back from moving forward from it because you're having to retell the

1900
02:27:32,380 --> 02:27:36,100
story over and over again and I know that you're very proud of the journey and there's

1901
02:27:36,100 --> 02:27:43,860
so much for us to learn the listener but I'm just so grateful that you are willing to tell

1902
02:27:43,860 --> 02:27:48,900
the story again and I know that now this is going to sit there in the cloud in cyberspace

1903
02:27:48,900 --> 02:27:54,200
whatever you want to call it and people can access this all over the world today a year

1904
02:27:54,200 --> 02:27:58,980
from now 10 years from now so I just want to thank you for your vulnerability your honesty

1905
02:27:58,980 --> 02:28:04,820
and your courage to tell what must be a very very painful story but I do know that it is

1906
02:28:04,820 --> 02:28:08,940
going to affect thousands of lives.

1907
02:28:08,940 --> 02:28:14,380
Why I sincerely appreciate the forum I think the discussion we had beforehand just talking

1908
02:28:14,380 --> 02:28:19,980
about that this story maybe I don't know how many more times I'll tell the story but I

1909
02:28:19,980 --> 02:28:24,940
think for this in this mode the way we're in in this medium and the way that people

1910
02:28:24,940 --> 02:28:30,740
access and your reputation I hope that it'll get out there for people and that somebody

1911
02:28:30,740 --> 02:28:34,880
listening to it whether they need the mental health advice the leadership advice or they

1912
02:28:34,880 --> 02:28:40,100
just need that hope with their faith that when they listen they go I got something out

1913
02:28:40,100 --> 02:28:44,540
of this and I feel like I know Sean and Eileen and yeah I'm going to carry on their mission

1914
02:28:44,540 --> 02:28:48,100
and that would be that would empower me like you wouldn't believe.

1915
02:28:48,100 --> 02:28:51,540
Absolutely and for everyone listening once you heard this make sure you share it for

1916
02:28:51,540 --> 02:28:57,260
God's sake please because this needs to be heard well again Pat thank you so much I really

1917
02:28:57,260 --> 02:28:59,660
really appreciate it.

1918
02:28:59,660 --> 02:29:18,580
Thank you I'm glad our paths cross that was meant to be also thanks James.