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Welcome to episode 500.
Yes, we are at 500 episodes of the Behind the Shield podcast.
We're about five years old now and approaching 2 million downloads.
So I want to start by thanking every single one of you trusting this project.
And I was obviously looking for someone who I thought would be an incredible guest
to put in this particular spot, this incredible benchmark that we've achieved.
And there is no better person to me than Dr. Edith Eager.
So Dr. Eager is the author of The Choice and the Gift.
She was a young Hungarian girl, a ballet dancer, a gymnast,
when the Nazis occupied Hungary and her parents were sent off to be murdered.
And her and her sister survived Auschwitz.
That then took her on a journey of her own healing.
And ultimately, she became a psychologist and immigrated here to the US.
Her books, I cannot underline how powerful her books are.
So I urge you to read The Choice, her actual biography, which is so incredible.
And there's so much to pull from that.
And very different lenses.
I mean, here's a woman who's been through one would argue,
probably one of the most traumatic experiences that you can go through.
And so to me, it's not about comparing trauma and downplaying your own.
It's about understanding that if someone can find their way out of that kind of trauma,
we can all work through our trauma.
We can all get to a place where we are reminded of gratitude,
where we realize that the future is how we write it.
We're not defined by our past.
So we sat down.
It was actually two interviews put together.
We did 30 minutes and then 30 minutes.
And as I said, I am so honored.
Dr. Eager has been in all the, you know, the biggest.
And she took the time to reach out to our community as you were here.
She has family members that are in the fire department.
And so there is so much to pull.
But aside from this podcast, I ask people to recommend books every week,
usually when I do interviews, but I cannot urge read The Choice.
The Gift is another incredible book that she is her latest release.
But if you want to really relate through the storytelling of her own journey,
read The Choice.
So before we get to this incredible interview, please just take a moment.
Go to whichever app you listen to this on.
Subscribe to the show.
Leave feedback and leave a rating.
Every five star rating elevates this podcast, therefore making it easier for others to find.
And this is a free library of now 500 episodes, 500 incredibly powerful stories.
So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories
so I can get them to everyone else who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you Dr. Eager.
Enjoy.
I want to say thank you to you for being so generous today.
I know how much in demand you are for interviews and to take the time to speak to this audience today,
first responders and military, doctors and nurses and everyone else who listens.
So I want to start by saying thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.
You're welcome.
And tell me about yourself.
Where did you grow up?
So I'm originally from England.
I moved to America 18, 19 years ago now.
So I'm also a European immigrant.
My story isn't quite as profound as yours, but it put us in the same place.
Yes, I was in London and I loved it.
And I was in Ireland and I loved it.
And I think America is very interesting.
Many, many, many different kinds of people gather, the South and the East and the West and you name it.
And right now I think we are hoping to unite more.
And I know that the firefighters are doing that, that you care very much for each other.
And that's what we had to do in Auschwitz because all we had was each other then and all we have is each other now.
So I know that you do everything you can and I know that I like the British English very much.
I don't know whether you have that accent still.
I think I lost it a little bit.
It's still there, but it got dampened down a bit with some American lilt, I think.
I'm going to say, by God, he's got it.
You got it.
So are you happy here and you miss England?
Yeah, I'm actually, I love it here and I want to really get your perspective in a little bit on your immigration here.
But yeah, I'm actually about to go home to England in three, excuse me, I'm going home next month and it's been three years because of the COVID epidemic.
So I can't wait to go back.
I mean, I love living here, but I'm sure just like you, I feel very connected to where I was born and raised as well.
Well, Dr. Eager, I'd love to start at the very beginning and again, what I would love to do is not lead you down the path that I know you've been led.
I've listened to some interviews, some fantastic interviews and other podcasts.
I've read the books.
So kind of leading you through, I don't want to spend a lot of time and Auschwitz, I want to talk about the work that you did and how you process trauma and how you're helping so many people now.
But I do love to start at the very beginning.
So if you could just give me a quick overview of your family life when you were young, I want to talk about the kind of the darker sides.
But what are some of the happy memories, you know, growing up in your early life?
So where did you grow up and what are some of the happy memories that you carry to this day?
I was born into a very talented family.
And my sister Magda, who is still alive, played the piano and my sister Clara was a child prodigy in violin.
And my parents decided that it's time to have a son.
And guess what happened?
They had a third girl, me.
And I don't think that my parents were happy at all.
My father told me that he just slammed the door and didn't want to have anything to do with me.
And then my mom told me, I'm glad that you have brains because you have no looks.
And so I think it's very important today for people now that we have the COVID to take time out, just like in football,
and and re-decide and regroup and see that you have a story, but you're not my story.
I have a story, but I'm not my story.
You know, I'm not a victim. I was victimized.
I never forget what happened.
I don't overcome anything because never in the history of mankind,
such an unfortunate happening, 15 highly educated people decided that they can put 30,000 juice in the oven without without gassing them.
And it's called the final solution of Eichmann.
And I'm part of that final. I arrived in Auschwitz May 1944.
So today I have three children, five grandchildren and seven great grandsons.
And that's my revenge to Hitler.
There is a difference between revenge and forgiveness.
You see, revenge can give you a little satisfaction.
OK, I got even.
I got the revenge, but I don't think it's really lasting long.
It's very temporary.
And I decided that somehow.
Four o'clock in the morning when we stood outside, they were counting heads.
And we were told that if you're not feeling well, we can stay behind.
That we're going to go to the hospital. But there was no hospital.
There was only the gas chamber.
So you had to learn very quickly not to react, but to respond and study and study and study the enemy because they could throw me in the gas chamber any minute.
But what I'm giving you today is to look at your soul and you can look at your spirit because that spirit never dies.
So I hope that people are not complaining and don't say yes, but to say yes and I can make a difference.
I'm one person. I can give of myself more.
I can maybe go to an orphanage and find a kid that I go and play dominoes with once a week or even whatever it is.
Show him how to kick the ball and how to go into a fire engine and things like that.
That you can be a big brother and a person who is a giver. That you give of yourself.
What you really do is many times you're grieving.
You know, grieving over something that is not happening.
And it's okay to cry because what comes out of your body doesn't make you ill.
But I ask people not to do two things.
When you come home from work, I ask your wife not to ask, how are you? How was your day?
It's better to say, geez, good to see you. I missed you. That it's better to say sentences rather than asking questions.
Especially why questions? Why is a past-oriented word? What I could have done, I should have done.
But you know, you cannot change the past.
I live in the present. I live in the present and I'm so happy to have you as a really brilliant interviewer.
Well, thank you for that. I mean, your insight is so profound.
The beginning of the choice, something that really resonated with me because, as you said,
you're very clear on the message about becoming the prisoner, whether it's a physical prisoner as you were in Auschwitz
or whether it's the mental prison that a lot of us are outside of a concentration camp.
But when you look at some of the, as you said, the seeming disappointment from your parents when they didn't have a son,
the kind of mocking that was going on when you had the issue with your eye and you were told that you weren't beautiful.
One thing that's come up on here is people comparing trauma.
Now, I've had people that were boy soldiers in Sierra Leone and a fellow Hungarian, actually,
Tamir Nagy, who was sex trafficked all the way through to people that were the middle child, that were the disappointment to the family.
When you look back now, prior to ever being taken by the Nazis,
what was the impact of that seeming lack of love from your parents on you when you were 15, for example?
You know, the work I do as a psychologist, I think that everything is a grief.
And we grieve over not what happened, but what didn't happen.
See, I went to a Jewish school. When I came out, children were spitting at us and calling me a Christ killer.
I didn't know that Jesus was a Jewish boy.
I didn't know that he became this wonderful prophet who tells us, love thy neighbor as thyself.
And the teaching of that is really the most wonderful thing you can do yourself today,
because you only have you for a lifetime. All other relationships will end.
So I hope self-love is really wonderful, that you get up in the morning, look in the mirror and say, I love me.
It's not narcissistic. So you're going to do that?
I know that I have disappointments, but I don't have any discouragement.
I can get angry. I can get angry, but I don't allow it to lead to resentment.
So feelings are very good.
When I was very young, my mother took me to a ballet school,
and my ballet master picked me up and said to me that, you know, all your ecstasy,
it was using the word that I didn't understand at all, all your ecstasy has to come from inside out.
I only learned that in Auschwitz when I realized that nothing is coming from the outside.
And today I tell people, don't wait for someone to make you happy.
You know, when you're happy, you have a lot of joy, and don't just sit around and wait.
You know, I know that a woman is in her fifties and I need a man, Edie, I need a man.
And I say, if I were a man, I would run from you.
Okay? See? And so is with meaning in life.
The meaning and purpose in life is very, very important, but it's something that you discover.
It's a discovery. So after I was liberated and I was in a hospital,
I became very suicidal because reality hit me. I didn't say what, I would say what for.
I had nothing to live for. My parents didn't come back.
My boyfriend was killed the day before liberation.
And I remember, I remember that I heard that voice telling me to be for something rather than against something.
So it's very, very easy, very easy for us to just kill ourselves because, you know,
when you're dead, you're dead. And I know that I was very suicidal after I was liberated
in the hospital when I could not hardly breathe because I was so sick and I had TB.
I had many, many things that was going on with me, wrong with me.
So today I am telling you that I'm here talking to you as a 93-year-old woman of strength.
I'm not strong woman. I'm a woman of strength.
And you know, many people asked me to write a book for many years, and I would say,
I have nothing to say. I have nothing to say, but not until Philip Zimbardo, who wrote the fourth book,
told me that the survivors who are successful, who are successful, are all men.
And they need a female voice. And that's how the choice came.
And then after the choice, I was told that the choice is fine and became a New York Times bestseller,
but they need something more practical. And that's how the choice came about.
Beautiful. So you had the choice was more of a biography and the gift was the second book.
That was the practical one. I still love the choice more. I love the storytelling and the biography element.
They're both incredible, but the choice obviously gives you far more depth of your story.
You're a good role model. And you're a good role model to your children,
because children don't do what we say. They do what they see.
Absolutely.
And I hope you're a very loving man, right?
I try to be.
And you're very kind man. I know you are kind. It's very good to be kind.
And I know I'm talking to one now.
Well, thank you. Well, when you talked about the post-liberation was when you actually struggled with the suicide ideation,
I found that very interesting because I've seen, again, in a lot of the stories I've had on here,
that one of the healing elements is purpose. Someone comes through a mental health, you know,
a post-traumatic growth, and then when they start a nonprofit, when they're able to help other people that were going through it,
that gives them that growth. Now, you tell the beautiful love story of me and Eric,
and the whole time you're thinking about seeing him again, as you just mentioned, he was executed,
which is just heartbreaking the day before you got out.
Was there an element of that purpose being taken away that after when you were safe and away from the Nazis,
that was actually when you were at your lowest mentally?
We were very mature for our age. I want you to know we were also very militant.
We were going to go to Palestine. And of course, that never happened.
But we had our own book club. And we, you know, just what happened, my mother told me,
I have good brains and that's exactly what happened.
I was reading Interpretation of Dreams by Freud when I was 13.
So I was doing exactly what my mother was calling me.
And that also what happened that my father would go and play billiards with his cronies.
And I stayed home with my mother babysitting. And she read me Gone with the Wind.
And she said that I'm going to go and see terror. And I did go see terror.
And what is important about it, it's fiction.
But it's so beautiful prescribed different personalities, you know, like the hysterical woman,
like the wife who recognizes that her husband loves another woman and she wants to kill herself.
Sounds like Anna Karenina, you know, that she was going to kill herself.
I had a Catholic patient who was going to kill herself to two o'clock in the morning.
And I told her one time, I'm sick and tired of going to her house two o'clock in the morning.
I never lost a patient. Okay. So I'm going to teach you something in Hungarian.
And I did tell her a very, very, very unfortunate Hungarian word.
So when the husband came home, she didn't have to go and write a letter that I'm going to die.
She was saying that word that I called her husband. And you know what?
She lost 150 pounds. She went back to school and became a social worker.
So that's what you do. You turn bad into good. You find a gift in everything.
And I know that when you are seeing people losing their whole home and everything in it,
that you have a tremendous amount of empathy. You're very empathic.
Yeah. Well, there's a lot of guilt as well for firefighters, you know,
when we're not able to save a life and we're not able to save a house.
And you have to be more realistic rather than idealistic and not to blame yourself.
You do the best you can and never ever, ever go into, why didn't I do this or that,
or I should have done it or I could have done it.
You know, my parents had tickets to go to America and they never used it.
So I beg of you, never ever put yourself down.
It takes a lot of courage for you just to accept that there'll never be another you.
And that's exciting.
It is for my wife.
Yeah. How did you meet your wife?
I met her on one of those internet dating sites. I got divorced.
And I know you've got an interesting divorce story too and then a remarrying story.
But yeah, my little boy's mother, it didn't work out and definitely there was no kind of coming around from that.
But I met my wife now who's incredible. So yeah, it was literally an internet date that ended up being a marriage.
So you're happy.
Very, very happy.
Good.
So I have a question. Of course, people listening, and if they don't know about Auschwitz
and the Holocaust and they can, you know, Google it, they can read the books.
So I don't want to dwell on the bad part.
I would like to ask you about the psychology of how I got there in a moment.
But starting with the humanity, there was some beautiful stories that I've heard you talk or tell, excuse me,
about some of the incredible moments of kindness and compassion by some of the Nazi guards who, again,
were probably at risk of losing their lives if they'd been seen being kind.
So what were some of the moments that you really look back and remember as far as the against the grain kindness
and compassion whilst you were in Auschwitz?
You know, I was interviewed by Larry King.
And Larry King asked me the question, have you ever experienced kindness among the guards?
And I told him that the war was ending.
It was April 1945.
And we were taken from one place to another.
We were walking, walking, walking, walking.
We ended up in Mauthausen, Austria.
And then I was...
You were in a village.
I was remembering that in Auschwitz, Dr. Mengele came to the barracks and wanted to be entertained.
And I did dance for him and I closed my eyes.
And I remember that the music was Tchaikovsky and I was dancing the Roman Juliet at the Budapest Opera House.
And then, and then Dr. Mengele gave me a piece of bread.
And I could have eaten the bread myself, but it was important for us to transcend our me, me, me.
And thank God I did that.
I did that because, because in April 1945, we were in a, in a small German village.
And we were told if we dare to leave the premises, we're going to be shot right away.
But my sister suffered more from hunger than I did.
And she told me that if I don't get some food, she's going to die.
So I didn't listen.
And I went out at night.
And I know that you read my book.
And I looked around and there were carrots in the next garden.
And I still knew how to jump and I stole the carrots and I came up the wall and I heard a gun.
One, two.
By the third time I said to myself, I'm going to die.
But there was an eye contact.
You know, I can kill you with my eyes and I can love you with my eyes.
Practice.
Whatever you practice, you become better at it.
And you know, there was that eye contact.
I don't know if you ever had a German father.
A look can kill you.
I had that look.
And he turned the gun around and pushed me inside.
I had the carrots.
I gave it to Magda.
And in the morning he showed up.
He wanted to know who was the one who dared to not follow the orders.
And I got so scared that he'll make kill us.
So I crawled to him.
And he gave me a loaf of bread.
And German people are starving too.
I wish I could meet that man today.
So yes, I met the angel.
I met the kindness among the gods.
Not all Germans were Nazis.
I know a while ago I was reading in a newspaper that a German woman was on her deathbed.
And I asked her, why did you risk your life to save Jews?
And she says, my father told me that's the right thing to do.
So I don't go to Germany looking for Nazis.
I am with the wonderful people.
The largest Jewish population today is in Germany.
And the German people fast up.
And one of the things they do in schools, they take them to the concentration camps.
And they fast up and they said, this is what happens when good people do very bad things.
Well, that's so powerful to hear.
Thank you for sharing those stories.
And I think that's even being British.
I mean, we have a very dark history.
There were concentration camps.
I think the first concentration camp, if I'm not mistaken, was by the British in the Boer War.
So my ancestors have done a lot of horrible things around.
But again, that wasn't all English and Welsh and Scottish and Irish people.
It was, I think, sadly, a few people that really pushed that.
Now, one thing I think that's, again, I would love to hear more about is ballet and gymnastics.
But ballet especially seemed to be instrumental not only in your physicality,
but also the place that you kind of retreated to to find that, you know, that escape from whatever horrors were around you.
So how important was ballet and movement and your overall health?
Not so much even in Auschwitz, but the recovery after, because after some of your recent talks, you still hold your leg up in the split.
So talk to me about the importance of movement and, you know, the journey out of Auschwitz.
This is what I say.
Whatever happens, I say to myself, I don't like it.
It's inconvenient.
And it's temporary and I can survive it.
Everything is temporary.
And that's why people need to recognize it's not what happens.
It's what you do with it.
So Auschwitz became a place for opportunity to discover, not recover, but to discover my inner resources,
just like my ballet master told me that what I think I create.
And so you get rid of two words.
I always do that.
I'm never going to find a man that this is what many people realize.
It's called the negative self-fulfilling prophecy.
So pay attention what your inner voice tells you, because you know everything is temporary.
Everything is temporary.
You have peace with your parents because half of you is your mother and half of you is your father.
You carry that blood and I cannot change your blood.
And then there is the environment, you know.
My God has got it.
And you learned how to speak English with an accent.
And you went to school.
And all that happened that you can interview me today by knowing that instead of going to the bar,
you go to the library.
And everybody becomes your brother and your sister that you don't have time to be against anything,
but to be for uniting that I can be I and you can be you.
But you and your wife together are much stronger than you alone.
I just want to emphasize self-love.
Self-love is self-care.
It's not narcissistic.
You know, you put that down because we say that many, many times.
My precious person here was born in Germany.
She speaks fluent German.
And we love the German food.
My daughter made Wiener Schnitzel.
Do you ever had Wiener Schnitzel?
I have.
I used to go skiing in Austria a lot.
Oh, there you go.
There you go.
Well, that's what we had the other day.
And my daughter's wedding anniversary was yesterday.
And my daughter married a Nobel Prize winner.
Oh, really?
Yes.
His name is Robert Engel.
E-N-G-L-E.
You can Google him.
He got the Nobel Prize in 2003 in economics.
And that's the best marriage.
53 years they are married.
And there is not a harsh word ever between them.
It's very important for you not to raise your voice and not to put each other up or down.
But I like the pioneer woman in America.
The pioneer woman worked alongside with her husband.
And I think that's an important person who is not really behind her husband or in front of the husband.
They work together as a team because men always use words that is up here.
You want to understand everything, right?
You want to understand.
I don't know what that means.
I want to understand.
Well, I don't know where you are with that.
But many times men want to understand.
And that word really belongs to the university, to the school, to the classroom.
And we women say, how do you feel about that?
And we go to the heart.
And so I have a special place in my heart.
And I call it my cherished wound.
And I'm sure you're wounded too.
We all are wounded one way or another.
And really recognize that you could have died and you didn't.
Yeah, absolutely.
And it's interesting.
I heard you talking about this subject with one of the other podcasts.
And I think what I observed and you talked about, you know, the right partner, you amplify each other, you raise each other up.
And I think one of the observations I've made is you take two individuals that fall in love and then they become a combined version of
rather than staying as two strong individuals with dreams that work alongside each other and lift each other up,
rather than kind of morphing into a singular organism that maybe is more detrimental than raising each other up.
Very, very well done because romantic love is temporary.
Falling in love is like you fall in a hole and then you fell out of love like you fell out of a tree.
I think romantic love is temporary.
But what you want to do is marry someone who will empower you, not deplete you, who tells you yes and rather than yes but.
So get rid of the yes but and embrace the yes and because when your wife walks into the room or your child for that matter,
your eyes lit up that she is your partner for life.
She is your soulmate.
She is. My wife is in medical school right now, so we're four hours apart.
But she supported me when I retired from the fire service to do this full time.
And then now I'm supporting her while she goes through medical school.
So, yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about.
So love is not what you feel, it's what you do.
Absolutely.
Well, I'm sure you have probably been told over and over again by patients in the past.
I feel this way, but obviously it's not as bad as what you went through.
And what I've seen with this project now, listening to stories of 500 people, your number 500, and it's an absolute honor to bring you on for that very important episode.
But I hear the elements of childhood trauma in first responders in the military.
I hear, of course, the acute things that we see, but also even the organizational stress,
the stress by working under maybe leaders that aren't creating a good environment, they're creating in bad environments.
So I'd love if it was OK to ask your concept of rather than the physical prison that you were in in Auschwitz,
the prison that we create in our mind, whether it's from trauma, whether it's from stress.
So how how do we identify that and then how do we start to work through that prison that we've created for ourselves?
I'm going to send you on my handout. OK, let me read it to you.
Please.
Mental prisons, victimhood, avoidance, self-neglect, secrets, guilt and shame, unresolved grief, rigidity, resentment, paralyzing fear, judgment, hopelessness, not forgiving.
That is very important because the other thing is that are you evolving or are you re-evalving?
And people say I always do that. I will never do that. And to get rid of always and never.
And forgiveness is that you give a gift to yourself.
You don't have Godly power to forgive anybody for anything what they did to you.
But you forgive even if they don't want to be forgiven because you want to be free.
So it's a gift that you give to yourself.
And I also talk about hopelessness. Don't cover garlic with chocolate.
Don't minimize the pain. Don't minimize the fear.
But how do you find still hope in hopelessness? So I'm going to send this to you. OK?
Beautiful. Thank you.
And how to be a survivor and not a victim.
So an interesting thing that has just transpired the last few days is the withdrawal from Afghanistan.
And I'm seeing a big, a very clear kind of red flag of a lot of the veterans that fought,
whether it was in Afghanistan or Iraq. And I'm sure we had the same probably in conflicts prior as well.
But a feeling of guilt and shame, a guilt and shame for leaving the people behind,
and wondering was what we did worth it? Now these towns are occupied again with the same people we were fighting.
What are you seeing with that?
I let you know that you usually going to hear two things.
We were put in a place we were not prepared for. We were told one thing and we found another.
You can quote me on that because that's what happens.
People are not prepared and then they come home and they want to kill themselves.
And it's not ever hopefully can happen and not happen because that's what happens a lot of the times.
People were not prepared for, they were told one thing, they found another.
They were not prepared for what was coming.
Okay. So where are you now sitting? In your office?
Yes, yes, my office.
Because I see a lot of books there.
Yes, there are a lot including this great book. I don't know if you recognize it or not.
But yes, I love to read and this has really made me read because having guests on I want to make sure that I've read their work.
And usually it's because I enjoy their work in the first place.
I'd love to bring that story then that I heard you talk about with the two Vietnam vets and one dealt with their trauma very differently.
So could I ask you to bring that story to this audience?
So one of them was very angry, extremely, very much in pain and blaming country, God, you name it.
And the other one said to me, it is very interesting that the same diagnosis, they were both paraplegics, but entirely different responses.
The second one told me I'm thanking God for giving me a second chance because I sit in a wheelchair and I can see my children's eyes much closer and I see the flowers.
And so here I was wearing a white coat, Dr. Eager, Department of Psychiatry, and I felt like a big imposter because I never dealt with my 16 year old that I ran away from.
So that's when I decided to go back to Auschwitz.
So what it is, it's about grieving, feeling and healing, and you cannot heal what you don't feel.
It seems like a lot of our people lock things away.
I love there's a Mexican proverb that says they tried to bury us.
They didn't know we were seeds.
And I think that's so spot on for the first responder community.
Actually, I had an interview about a week ago now, and during that conversation, one of the children that had died when I was a paramedic popped into my head and I forgot about it.
So, you know, with that, what are some of the tools that people can use to to start pulling that out, to start finding them?
Because I think some people are completely unaware of trauma that happened when they were younger or in their career.
I think what you want to do is invite it in. Invite the feeling in.
You sit down, you invite it in. Don't minimize it. Don't run from it. Face it.
OK? Because that was then and this is now.
So that's why you want to get rid of guilt and you want to get rid of worry and live in the present.
So it's not why me, but what now?
Absolutely. Now, I've heard you talking about crying as well, and I can relate to this completely.
I went through a divorce and I would deliberately put music on that I knew would make me cry because I could feel that emotional release.
So with a lot of these people listening, male or female, you know, we came in the generation where you don't cry, you know, rub some dirt in it.
You know, don't be weak. So talk to me about the value of tears, male or female.
You know, I had a patient who whose dog died.
And he was crying and father came in and said, we don't cry.
And dragged the boy and took him to a pet shop and bought a new puppy.
He told me. I have yet to cry since I'm nine years old and I'm 58 now.
So I think so much for crying and your father's message that crying is not appropriate for a boy.
Not knowing that what comes out of your body doesn't make you ill, what stays in there.
So what people do, they minimize or deny, you know, it's like it didn't happen.
It's very important that you guide people to feel and and grieve and and heal.
So there is no forgiveness without rage. You've got to go through the rage.
Absolutely. So that's I think that's one thing that's misunderstood by some people is, you know, when there's forgiveness, you're just sitting there in the lotus position and then you're saying I forgive you and that's it.
So I think a lot of this audience will understand that rage element is huge.
And there's a punch bag next door to me that that can tell you I've certainly wacked it many times.
Yes. And and you want to know how long you're going to hold on to it.
You see, because when you are angry, you suffer.
Because you have a lot of fear underneath. And so I think it's where you got to be very selective. I'm very selective. Who's going to get my anger?
Absolutely. Well, another another thing that comes up and again, sadly, I think it's the elephant in the room with mental health in my profession is addiction.
I was very, very lucky to go to Portugal and sit down with Zhao Guolao, Dr. Zhao Guolao, who spearheaded decriminalizing addiction in Portugal.
As a paramedic, I see the ripple effects of drugs, you know, addiction being illegal in this country, not selling, not smuggling, but addiction.
What's your without loading the question, what's your view on addiction as a mental health, you know,
creating addicts as mental health patients versus incarcerating them in prisons?
I think what is important to know how is it working for you, what you do in excess, anything that you do excess,
you are not having a balance in your life, namely working, loving and playing not to do any of that in excess.
So when you get a divorce, there was a time when you had beautiful moments with that woman.
You didn't marry because you wanted to suffer and get a divorce. So, you know, it's very important to possibly join the 12 step program
because these people are only using the first step on addiction. The rest is how to grow up.
It's really growing up and taking inventory of your life and millions and millions of people go to meetings
and become also helping other people who are going to the meetings and let them know that you don't try to overcome.
You come to terms with it. I never overcome what happened to me or forget it. Don't run from it.
Don't fight it, face it. And actually you become stronger for it. So suffering gets you stronger.
Now you mentioned as well, I think I might have talked about this earlier in the conversation, but the element of purpose
and then you had your real mental health struggle after you were liberated.
And I see this in the first responder community in the military when you transition out that people struggle.
They've lost their tribe. They've lost their purpose. They were helping saving lives and now they're at home.
How important is purpose and or altruism to the individual's own healing?
Well, it's just asking yourself very quick questions. What am I doing now and how is it working?
You know, and you may be isolated. You may need to just get out of your home every morning and go to a meeting
and ask people how you can be useful to them, not how can I help you get rid of this business of helping.
How can I be useful to you? You're not Humpty Dumpty. You don't put people back together again.
Don't minimize yourself, but also realizing that you can only help other people when they're ready.
Beautiful. Well, there's a couple of other perspectives I want to get because you grew up in Hungary.
There was the communism element and obviously the fascism element that came into your country.
What, as we talked about before we started recording, the worst thing in the world, I think, is to watch history repeat itself.
So firstly, through your eyes now, not only as someone who went through it personally, but as a psychologist,
what were some of the elements that allowed the tyranny, in this case, you know, Adolf Hitler's tyranny,
to move so many people to do such cruel things within their country?
I know, of course, not all Germans were doing that, but the ones that did partake.
What's the psychology behind allowing or getting so many people to steer so far from an ethical line?
I'd like you to read the book by Max Weber, Capitalism and the Protestant Ethics.
And he calls the Jewish people a pariah.
See, you didn't kill people in Vietnam. You killed gooks and kikes, and you give them a name,
and then they become subhuman, and you actually think you're doing a favor to the world to get rid of the gooks and the kikes.
And of course, the Jewish people have been called the pariah, and I was called that I'm subhuman.
I was told that I'm never going to get out of here alive.
But thank God, I did not allow them to get to me.
See, remember the pope goes to the 16th chapel and is very angry at Michelangelo.
When are you going to be ready? And he looked down from his ladder and said calmly, when I'm ready.
And that is very important. You want to talk to people who are ready to change,
who are ready to give birth to the real you, to the true self.
To your genuine self that you gave up early in life to fit your family dynamics.
You become the firstborn, the responsible one. You become a middle child, a peacemaker.
Or you become the charming manipulator, and the baby in the family.
And we give them a name, and then they play the game.
I think it's very important to take stock of yourself and see what you hold on to and what are you willing,
that's a very good word, willing to be willing to take charge of your life.
Absolutely. Well, we spoke earlier about coming back from World War II and then still witnessing racism in the South.
And again, obviously not all people, but it was there.
I've kind of got a hint in some of your other interviews that you're witnessing some sort of anti-Semitism, racism, whatever it is.
What are you seeing now through your eyes, through your lens that you've been through all this stuff?
What are you seeing at the moment and what can we do to change that?
Well, it was very shaking when I saw a man wearing a T-shirt saying six million was not enough on January 6th in the Capitol.
That was a real shock to me that history does have a tendency to repeat itself.
And I think the white supremacy group is extremely, extremely popular and it's growing very much, very fast.
So what can we do as Americans, as British, as Australians, everyone's listening now, what can we do?
Because to me, you look to a, I'm going to use quotation, leader, and I use that both sides the last few decades, to change a country.
I think you've got that completely wrong. I think the pyramid is upside down.
What can we, the people on the ground floor, do to push against this this time, to not allow potentially another repeat of what happened in Hungary and Poland and Austria and Germany and all these places?
Because the warning signs are so important and we have to catch them early.
So as the average American, what can we do to push against that?
Well, I am going to always tell you what I lived and I was facing a 14 year old young man many years ago who committed himself to David Koresh in Texas.
I don't know if you're old enough for...
Yeah, the Waco incident.
It's a long time ago, but he told me he's a boot boy and I don't know a thing about boots.
I want you to know, but I did look at his boots and I recognized it that yes, it's a pair of nice boots.
And then he got up and he put his elbow on my desk and he said, Hey Doc, it's time for America to be white again.
And I'm going to kill all the Jews.
Now, I'm going to tell you the difference between reacting or responding.
If I would have reacted, I would have carried him to the corner and I would tell him, how dare you talk like that.
I saw my mother going to the gas chamber and I was sweating.
But I did go to God and my God is Tinkerbell.
I go to the free spirit.
Okay.
And my God tells me to find the bigot in me.
And I said, that's not true at all.
I came to America penniless and I went to the bathroom and one of them said colored in 1949.
So I joined the people of color and I ended up marching for Martin Luther King in 1963, I believe, in the summer.
But nevertheless, this is what God told me to create an atmosphere that that boy can feel any feelings with me without the fear of me judging him, which I know very well how to do.
That's what I learned as a psychologist to be a compassionate listener.
That's why I gave us two ears and one mouth.
So we took less and listen more.
Anyway, so I sat down.
I did sit down, looked at him and I said, tell me more.
He never knew who I was, nothing.
And so I think it's very important to listen to your own voices and take stock of yourself.
And now that we have the co-ed and to be able to make some changes because change is synonymous with growth.
So the question I have, are you re-evaluating or are you evolving?
I love that because that's so pertinent because we think about race, but we look at the division that's been created for and against the police, for and against wearing masks, for and against vaccinations.
So yes, I think that's such a beautiful way of being introspective on your own biases and resolving that within yourself.
Well, I want to say thank you so much.
I want to cut this now because I don't want to go over the 30 minutes.
I know you were dealing with some things last week and I'm so, so grateful that you sat down with me again to finish this off.
But I just want to say thank you.
I shared your story, one of the videos that they made on the internet a while ago, and it resonated with so many people.
The book, I was elated and nauseated and angry and all these things in The Choice because it is raw and it tells the story.
And I can't urge anyone enough to read The Choice and then The Gift as well.
But here we are.
I'm a firefighter.
You've been on Oprah and all these other shows and you've done this incredible work.
But I just can't thank you enough for taking the time today to come on this podcast and talk to the first responders, military and associated professions of the world.
Son-in-law was a fireman.
And what I learned that the firemen are beautiful people.
They very much care for each other.
They're not just for the me, me, me and not caring.
So I want to congratulate you for transcending your ego needs and committing yourself to someone other than you.
And you are a beautiful family and you care for each other.
So I think congratulations is what I want to do today to let you know that you care for one another and you're a beautiful family of firefighters.
And I like very much what you do.
You know, you're saving lives.
You really are doing your calling.
This is not a job.
This is your calling.
And God has given you that gift that you middle of the night, five o'clock in the morning.
It doesn't matter.
You go and you do everything you can to save lives.