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To learn more about Thorn, go to episode 323 of the Behind the Shield podcast with Joel

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Titoro and Wes Barnett.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on

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the show British military veteran, conservationist and the subject of the documentary Wildcat,

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Harry Turner.

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Now, in this incredibly powerful conversation, we discuss a host of topics from Harry's early

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life, his journey into the military, the PTSD that he brought home from Afghanistan, his

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mental health struggle, his trip to Peru, the making of the documentary and so much

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more.

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Before we get to this incredibly powerful and important conversation, as I say every

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week, please just take a moment, go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the

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show, leave feedback and leave a rating.

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Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find.

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And this is a free library of almost 900 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so

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I can get them to every single person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you Harry Turner.

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Enjoy.

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Well Harry, I want to start by saying two things.

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Firstly, thank you to John from Silver Spear for connecting us and secondly, to welcome

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you onto the Behind the Shield podcast today.

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Yeah, thank you very much, James.

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I just was on a podcast the other day with John and I enjoy kind of like meeting new

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people just via this kind of like networking.

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So it's great.

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How did your paths cross in the first place, yours and John's?

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So I believe that he watched the documentary, reached out to me and said, look, I watched

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the film, loved it.

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Do you mind coming on the podcast?

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And I jumped on the podcast with him and then he was doing a tour with Shine Down and he

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said, we're going to be over in Spokane.

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And because I've just recently bought a house here in Washington state, he was like, if

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you're, if you can get there, great, like come and hang out with the band and come and

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hang out with me.

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And so I went over there with my wife and he gave her a bunch of tequila and I had to

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drive home.

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But yeah, we met then and then just kept in touch and yeah, he's just a super great guy.

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And he's got a lot of really cool stories and his background is very complicated and

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there's just like so much kind of depth into him that it's just kind of like a book that

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just keeps on kind of giving, you know?

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Yeah.

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And he is, I mean, when I reached out, it was about something else as a musician called

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Jelly Roll who just did an amazing speech in DC about addiction and the fentanyl crisis.

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And I reached out to him knowing he's well embedded in the music industry to see if he

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had any connections.

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But in our conversation, he's like, well, I know someone who you need to get on the

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show and it was you.

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So here we are.

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It's a very generous man.

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So you mentioned Washington, is that where we're finding you now?

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Yes.

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So I'm over in the Pacific Northwest.

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Really grew up in the UK, as you can tell from my accent.

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And I kind of moved over to the US a few years ago.

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I got married last year.

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So I'm in actually the process of my green card at the minute, which is taking a very

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long time.

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It's just kind of one of the things you just got to kind of roll with the punches with

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it.

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But yeah, it's kind of annoying and stressful just kind of being in limbo with the US kind

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of government.

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But at the same time, I want to be settling my roots in the Pacific Northwest here with

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my wife and with my nonprofit, we're going to be doing a lot of stuff down in Ecuador.

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And so it's a good place to kind of be.

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I can be in North America and super close to South America as well.

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Beautiful.

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Yeah, I came to the US in 2002.

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And yes, my application took a lot longer.

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I think people realize how expensive it is.

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So when there's a lot of demonization of the illegal immigration, we came from a pretty

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affluent country when you compare the entire world.

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But to come here and jump through all the hoops, you need a lot of money, you need sponsors

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and all these kind of things.

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So it's understandable if you are in Haiti or Mexico or somewhere and are just desperate,

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it gives you a little bit more compassion.

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Doesn't mean it's right.

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Doesn't mean that we should open up borders.

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However, it does give you some compassion when you've been through it, coming from a

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great foundation to the fact that it would be almost impossible if you were from a poorer

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nation.

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Oh, absolutely.

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And I can only imagine coming in 2002 with the disaster which happened in 2001 with the

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US, that application must have taken three or four times longer than usual.

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The issue that I'm finding right now with my visa is that post pandemic is people are

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still catching up in the system.

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And so, whereas before it could have been 12 to 14 months waiting and then you might

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have to go in for a few interviews and meetings, I'm coming up on 12 months now and I have

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zero idea.

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I don't have a work visa.

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I don't have a travel visa.

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I'm honestly stuck here for the time being.

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And so, yeah, I'm just playing it day by day and just getting through it.

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Well, we're going to get into your mental health journey, but just to jump ahead while

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we're talking about now, it's funny.

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The one thing that the pandemic did, whatever people's perspective and I mean, to me, the

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middle ground is where the truth is.

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It was a real virus, but it was also reliant on the health or ill health of the people

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on how we fared with that virus.

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But what ended up happening was a loss of autonomy.

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A lot of people were told to stay in their homes.

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The places where they would healthily decompress were closed down.

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And there is a real stress from the loss of autonomy that can be very detrimental to our

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mental health.

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Now you find yourself in this immigration kind of middle space.

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Has that had any kind of negative effect that you can't just pack up and pursue the things

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that you want to pursue at the moment?

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My mental health has definitely been affected in this kind of phase of limbo.

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But ultimately, I'm trapped in a country which has so much diversity.

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And for me, one of my main passions growing up and everything was reptiles and amphibians.

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I love snakes.

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I love lizards.

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I love frogs.

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You know, like that was like my thing.

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So being in the US, I can go anywhere really and find cool animals.

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And I know that you're in Florida now.

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I was just in Florida at the end of last year and which was only a month and a half ago.

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But the end of last year I was there and I was with one of my friends down there.

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I've been there a few times now and I was helping out with different camera trap projects

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and just went down there and I had that freedom to because I was still in the US.

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And I've got some great friends in Arizona and I go down to Arizona as well.

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So I get these breaks away from the kind of like hustle and bustle of the city.

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I'm a little bit further north than Seattle, but still I'm in like there's traffic and

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there's fireworks going off and there's all these different things.

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And so I do to some degree feel a little bit trapped here, but at the same time I have

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the mountains super close by.

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In summer there's some incredible hikes and there's some just incredible scenery around

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here.

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And I'm making a good connection with like some good people here and friendship groups.

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And it definitely has been a little bit tricky here.

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Making friends.

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I'm a Brit that basically loves animals more than people and I love being outdoors a lot

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more than the majority of these Seahawks and Mariners fans.

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It's one of these things where it is a tricky kind of thing to try and make friends at,

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you know, I'm 30 years old with just, you know, kind of newer people.

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But I'm fortunate that my wife, she has a very good friend group here and a very good

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family unit here.

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And so becoming and having fun with these friends and some of these people, it's been

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fairly easy.

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But I am very fortunate with being in the US, being able to travel to different states

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and see different landscapes and animals and being incredible people.

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I can relate to that.

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When we were, when I was back home younger, I never had a football team.

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I'd support the England team, of course, every two and four years.

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But growing up I saw the mob mentality of the 80s and a lot of the negative sides.

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So I just, I love playing footy.

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I was a sportsman, but I never really got into the whole watching.

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And so in the UK with football and in here with baseball, basketball, American football,

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you know, if that's the topic of conversation, I'm, you know, I'm kind of out.

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So it's interesting, you know, when you're finding your tribe, when you're finding that

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group and you had a tribe, obviously in the UK military, and we'll get into that, but

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it's finding the right kind of people.

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And this is what's been so amazing about this podcast is when I have conversations with

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people like you and John and other great humans, they're so nurturing.

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Whereas if you talk about a football game and you know, that's absolutely fine if that's

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your thing and that's your decompression.

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But you know, at the end of it, you've talked about someone else playing a sport when you've

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learned from, you know, a mental health practitioner or a soldier or, you know, whoever it is,

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you've kind of learned a little bit, you've grown a little bit.

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So that's kind of what I found myself leaning towards.

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And it can be someone who's never delved deeper than that before, but if I do engage in someone,

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you know, I don't want to talk politics, I want to talk sports, I want to learn about

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who they are.

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And you know, when people open up, it's, it's incredible the stories that human beings have

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if they can get past that kind of distraction that's kind of, you know, put in front of

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our eyes.

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Absolutely.

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No, I agree.

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And there's, you know, you see, you should never judge a book by its cover, especially

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with people because you never know what they've gone through.

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You never know the stories that they have.

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And I found, you know, when I have gone to Florida or Arizona, and we've been around

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a fire, and it's been like a long day, and we've, you know, been hiking all day, like

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some of the true stories really come out and you really like, even though you think you

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know somebody, you really don't until you've kind of like, had a serious deep conversation

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with them sat around a fire, you know, shared a meal together.

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But yeah, no, it's definitely the human mind is pretty incredible.

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Absolutely.

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Well, you mentioned the UK.

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So let's start the very beginning of your timeline then tell me where you were born

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and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings.

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Yeah, so I was born in Portsmouth in 1993.

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I was there because my dad was in the Navy.

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And so about six months into my life, we moved all the way up to Scotland.

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And then we was in a naval base in Helensburgh.

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And that's where my sister was born.

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And so it was me and my sister for the first 13 years of growing up, my dad had kind of

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like, you know, gone to the Gulf War and done a few other different bits and pieces.

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And after 12 years of service, he decided to leave the Navy.

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And then we moved down to Essex.

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And that's where my brother was born.

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And so we're kind of all dotted about the place.

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And yeah, so I've got my brother and sister, my mom and dad still together, still happily

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married, I honestly don't know a couple which is kind of as happy as that maybe because

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my mom wears the trousers and he just says yes, like that's probably just how it works.

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But yeah, I grew up in Essex.

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I spent a lot of my kind of like teen life in Essex and, you know, the skateboarding,

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the smoking weed, the kind of getting the fake ID and going to nightclubs and pubs before

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I was old enough.

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And I just didn't know what I really wanted to do with my life.

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I hated school.

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I just couldn't get on with the education system.

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I found myself kind of like itching to just always be outside.

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But you know, I was trapped in a classroom.

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And so therefore I became the class clown and was always in trouble and was always getting

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detentions.

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And then so when I left school, I, you know, got a job in working in a kitchen.

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I love cooking and I've always kind of cooked.

230
00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:46,320
And I just thought like, what am I doing with my life?

231
00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:52,120
Like how am I going to, you know, look back in 20, 30 years and be like, oh, I'm proud

232
00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:53,120
of what I did.

233
00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,000
And at that moment in time, I couldn't think of anything.

234
00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:01,920
So my dad kind of said to me like, Harry, you know, you're getting a little bit older.

235
00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:07,240
You're going to be 18 in the next, you know, kind of six, seven months or whatever.

236
00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:08,240
What are you planning on doing?

237
00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:12,120
Because, you know, when you're 18, you're old enough to vote, you're old enough to do

238
00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:13,120
this.

239
00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,800
You're going to have to figure it out.

240
00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,640
I said, I just have zero idea.

241
00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:21,160
I don't know what I want to do with my life.

242
00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:27,960
I have hobbies and I have passions, but I'm not really like, I don't really know how to

243
00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:34,760
like make that career or make money from it, especially in the UK.

244
00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:36,560
And he said, just join the Navy.

245
00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:38,200
Like that's what I did.

246
00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,120
And I was like, I'm not fucking gay.

247
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:43,160
Like I'm not joining the Navy.

248
00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:49,240
I've always kind of joked with him and, you know, he was on the submarines with a bunch

249
00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:50,240
of men.

250
00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,960
I'm like, you must have got bored at some point in your life.

251
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,280
You know, we joked about it and he goes, yeah, it's okay.

252
00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:01,040
Like the Navy is obviously not for everybody.

253
00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:05,280
And so I was talking to my mom the next day and I was just like, no, dad was talking to

254
00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:06,280
me about this.

255
00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:07,280
I hadn't really thought about it.

256
00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:09,000
I don't know what to do.

257
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:11,080
She goes, well, you don't have to join the Navy.

258
00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:16,120
You can join the Marines or you can join, you know, the army or the air force.

259
00:17:16,120 --> 00:17:20,760
Like if that's what you want to do, like you could do that.

260
00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:27,800
And so the next day we went to the, um, the kind of like, uh, it was kind of like a shopping

261
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,560
center and they had like a military kind of sign up for the army there.

262
00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:35,000
And I just went in and just spoke to someone and they're like, yeah, join up.

263
00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,160
And I was like, okay, I guess.

264
00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,480
Like I had no idea.

265
00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,560
And so they said, come back in a week, you'll do a test and then we can figure out, you

266
00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:46,840
know, how clever you are and what jobs you can do.

267
00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:48,200
And it's called the bar test.

268
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:54,920
And so I went in and I did this bar test and I got a list of like 120 jobs that I could

269
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:55,920
do.

270
00:17:55,920 --> 00:18:01,080
And there was like things in there like dog handler and, you know, chef and mechanic and

271
00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:02,080
all these different things.

272
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,000
And I was like, no, I just want to, I want to be an infantryman.

273
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,080
I just want to, I want to be on the frontline.

274
00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:08,080
That's it.

275
00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:09,960
Like if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it.

276
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:16,560
And like naive 17 year old Harry Turner was just like, you know, go out there and just

277
00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,840
kind of like, I don't know, make your country proud.

278
00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,080
I don't know what the hell I was thinking.

279
00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:29,120
And so I did a few tests, physical training tests and you know, other things like that.

280
00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:35,400
And they said, right, you're going to go off to basic training September 4th.

281
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:36,400
And I was like, okay.

282
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,880
And my birthday is September 2nd.

283
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:44,080
So I was like, I get to spend my 18th birthday with family and friends and then that's it.

284
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:49,680
You know, so I had my 18th birthday packed my bags the next day on the 4th.

285
00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:58,000
I went to I see ITC, Katarik and spent six months in training there, which was honestly

286
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,560
like some of the hardest training I've ever done.

287
00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,840
I did it from, you know, September all the way through March.

288
00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:10,800
And so there's some very cold months, especially up in North Yorkshire and just, you know,

289
00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:14,960
bayonet training by like smashing ice with your elbows and you're just crawling through

290
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:23,440
ice water for like, it felt like a very long time, but it was a hard training.

291
00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:28,960
And then I got out of training and I went into my battalion and I spent two weeks in

292
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:33,360
my battalion and then I was shipped off to Afghanistan and I spent, you know, another

293
00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:34,360
six months there.

294
00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:41,760
So that whole year of turning 18 and becoming 19 being, you know, a nobody to, you know,

295
00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:46,880
being broken down to then being sent off to Afghanistan as a battle casualty replacement.

296
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:52,640
I basically just went there to replace someone who was either injured or dead and then spending

297
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:57,000
time there at 18 years old and then coming back.

298
00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:02,240
It like I never ever cried in Afghanistan.

299
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:03,920
I never got upset in Afghanistan.

300
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:09,560
I saw some horrific stuff, but I never emotionally felt like I had to express that.

301
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:14,520
Like I had to release the pressure or something.

302
00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:19,720
And then as soon as I got back and work was kind of just like, oh, we don't really know

303
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:20,720
what we're doing anymore.

304
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:25,280
Like go back to your rooms and go play on your PlayStations or, you know, drink your

305
00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:26,760
life away, go do whatever you want.

306
00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:28,920
And I was just for four or five months.

307
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:30,560
I just had no purpose.

308
00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:35,200
And my head was just going and going and going and I was thinking about all the stuff I'd

309
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:36,200
seen.

310
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,240
I was not sleeping.

311
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,240
I was drinking excessively.

312
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:44,920
I was just, I was getting super, super sick.

313
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:49,440
And yeah, I kind of broke down.

314
00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:50,880
I just lost it.

315
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:56,740
And I only did one tour and I know a lot of people have done a lot more.

316
00:20:56,740 --> 00:20:59,400
And a lot of people will say to me like, oh, you did one tour.

317
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,000
Like you're that's, you know, you did it.

318
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:03,000
Like you're good.

319
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:09,480
But like I felt like I just hadn't completed what I should have completed.

320
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:14,520
I didn't do my four years, you know, after I got medically discharged, it was like more

321
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,760
like three years and a few months.

322
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,400
And so for me, like I felt like I'd failed.

323
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:23,520
I felt like I went to Afghanistan and failed.

324
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,240
Even though I came back alive, I felt like a failure.

325
00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:30,240
And I felt like I was letting all the people in my battalion down because I was just mentally

326
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:31,240
not there.

327
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,800
And then I felt like I was letting my family down because I was just like this kind of

328
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,680
like sad excuses, a human that kind of went to war.

329
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:42,040
And, you know, I didn't see a great deal of stuff, but the stuff I did see really tortured

330
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:43,260
me.

331
00:21:43,260 --> 00:21:51,280
And yeah, I just felt like a massive failure and just, I don't know, just, I just didn't

332
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,120
want to live anymore.

333
00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:59,560
I want to go back to early life and then obviously we'll get to your homecoming and the struggles,

334
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,760
which is not uncommon whatsoever.

335
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:09,000
But while we're in the early life still, and the reason I ask this, as I interview more

336
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:14,080
and more and more people, I become more educated and we're almost 900 interviews now.

337
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:21,920
And I realized that first responders, military, a lot of us in uniform have some, you know,

338
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:26,840
maybe a lot of trauma prior to us ever putting the uniform on that we don't think about.

339
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:31,440
So if, you know, as you kind of very briefly touched on in a documentary, you know, there

340
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:37,440
were some scenes that you witnessed that were extremely traumatic while you were in uniform,

341
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,600
but that is built on the foundation of what you brought through the door.

342
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,720
Now you mentioned that your parents are happily married.

343
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:49,200
When you look back now with this kind of older wiser lens, were there any elements of your

344
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,920
early life that you think contributed to your struggles later?

345
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,800
Yeah, I do.

346
00:22:55,800 --> 00:23:02,800
My grandma was like a huge inspiration to me and she was a huge kind of like religious

347
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:07,680
person, a very godly person, went to church all the time and, you know, was always talking

348
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:13,640
to us about believing in God and all these things.

349
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:18,120
She I guess she was like my rock, you know.

350
00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:19,440
I loved her to pieces.

351
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:21,480
She's my mum's mum.

352
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:29,360
And so she was married to an Irishman and my grandparents were like, I love them to

353
00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:30,360
pieces.

354
00:23:30,360 --> 00:23:39,240
And my grandma got extremely sick with, you know, several forms of cancer and just died

355
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:40,240
rapidly.

356
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,760
Like, I remember seeing her and then seeing her like six weeks later and she was like

357
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:45,840
half the weight she was.

358
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:52,440
And my face was just unrecognisable, like hair falling out, like I couldn't recognise

359
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,880
her and it was awful.

360
00:23:54,880 --> 00:24:04,120
And I remember just like thinking if there's a god and this woman truly believed there's

361
00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:06,040
a god, where the hell are you?

362
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,920
Because this is sick, you know.

363
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:13,840
And all this crap with like, oh, God works in mysterious ways and all that.

364
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:14,840
Maybe he does.

365
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,400
Maybe if there is a god, you know, I personally don't believe in God.

366
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,440
I believe that there's more of a spiritual thing and I'm more of a scientist.

367
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,240
So I kind of more believe in evolution.

368
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:30,040
And then that was just like awful.

369
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:34,440
And then like a year later, my granddad passed away from cancer as well.

370
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:40,240
And so my mum went from having, you know, two kids and both her parents to having three

371
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,480
kids and no parents.

372
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:48,360
And it was just like this horrible kind of traumatic time where I wasn't sure, like whilst

373
00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:53,080
I was kind of becoming more of a teenager, what was kind of like hormonal and what was

374
00:24:53,080 --> 00:25:06,320
kind of like, I guess, just awful life, you know, just existing and what was kind of like,

375
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,280
I just didn't know what was normal.

376
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,440
And I think that that's about it really.

377
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:18,360
Like I look back with wiser eyes and think that I put a lot of pressure on myself as

378
00:25:18,360 --> 00:25:22,160
well to have a relationship like my parents.

379
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,680
And I just don't think it's normal.

380
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:26,680
I've never seen them fight.

381
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,600
And I think they've had like one argument in their life.

382
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:37,720
And to someone like me, who is very kind of, I'm very precise and exact with a lot of the

383
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:43,320
things I do, I wouldn't really necessarily call it like OCD or anything like that.

384
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:49,120
But I'm definitely, you know, a little bit there on the spectrum.

385
00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:55,160
And seeing people be so happy and then, you know, getting in your first relationship and

386
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,680
then having your first argument and you're like, oh, no, no, this is not the person for

387
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,680
me because we have one argument and it was, you know, five minutes long.

388
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:04,720
No, this isn't right.

389
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:05,720
My parents didn't do it.

390
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:06,720
So I shouldn't do it.

391
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:14,320
And I look back on that and I just think, you know, that's not a healthy way to kind

392
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:16,840
of look at it.

393
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:22,360
But I last year got a therapist.

394
00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:27,440
First time in my life I'd ever spoke to anybody about some of the stuff I'd done.

395
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:33,320
And we've been talking about pre-war and post-war.

396
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:40,040
And what were my kind of like issues and triggers and what were my issues and triggers afterwards?

397
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:47,400
And before you go into the military, you don't have a test done to see whether you have PTSD

398
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:48,720
of any kind.

399
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:50,880
You just get chucked in the deep end.

400
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:56,840
And then when you come out of it and they say, oh, you know, you got some similar traits

401
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,960
to PTSD, but you know, like you just, you just as a little bit depressed, you know,

402
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:02,520
get out.

403
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:07,080
I'm trying to, you know, I'm talking to my therapist and now trying to figure out, did

404
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:11,460
I have some of these issues before going to war?

405
00:27:11,460 --> 00:27:17,620
And have they just been heightened, tweaked and made worse because of war so that now

406
00:27:17,620 --> 00:27:21,000
I struggle with complex PTSD?

407
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:26,440
Or, you know, was I a normal somewhat kid going through hormonal changes and then I

408
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,440
went to war and then I came back and was completely, you know, messed up.

409
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:36,280
But because we don't have the data and the kind of like information to show previous,

410
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,080
I'm trying to work through what I was like before that.

411
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:44,400
And I definitely have some issues.

412
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:51,880
Obviously, I am way better off than a lot of people in this world, but I definitely

413
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,460
did struggle slightly before the military.

414
00:27:54,460 --> 00:28:00,680
And then obviously afterwards I struggled severely with mental health, self-harming,

415
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:10,520
suicide attempts and just daily struggles of, I guess, just not feeling like I should

416
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,400
be part of this world.

417
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:19,320
Firstly it's an interesting perspective when you have parents who have an incredible relationship

418
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,400
because I've never thought of it in reverse.

419
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,600
You know, there's a lot of people out there that thought their extremely toxic family

420
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,200
that they grew up in was normal.

421
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,600
And that ended up being their baseline that they ultimately had to stop that domino from

422
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,640
falling and they didn't pass it on to their children too.

423
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:39,560
But when you happen to be born into a great family, and obviously we get glimpses of your

424
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,800
parents in the film too, I'd never thought of it that way.

425
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,640
That sets you up for this is what it should look like.

426
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:51,200
And you know, for anyone, anyone who has not fallen in love with their childhood sweetheart

427
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:58,080
and then married them and happily married, it is a montage of good and bad experiences.

428
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:03,440
You know, relationships that last a day, some last five years, but we're all chasing that

429
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:04,440
one.

430
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,160
But that only exists for a few people.

431
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,520
Sometimes it takes us multiple people to finally find the person.

432
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:16,720
And my second marriage is my soulmate and that was I met her at 38.

433
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:22,880
But also when I think about what you've told me, you know, the feeling trapped in school,

434
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,560
you know, the classroom isn't the right fit for everyone.

435
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:31,240
And then even your transition into the military, and I'm curious if this is how it felt, you

436
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:37,080
create this tribe, you're training with the men and women that you got recruited with

437
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,360
and that became your battalion.

438
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:43,120
And then you get plucked out and put into somewhere else as a replacement.

439
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,560
So you almost kind of lost your tribe in that element too.

440
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:51,640
What factor in the soul did you feel like you didn't belong initially when you found

441
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,360
yourself overseas in a different unit?

442
00:29:54,360 --> 00:30:01,720
As I was the young looking, blue eyed, blonde haired kid that kind of like got chucked out

443
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,160
there, it was definitely hard.

444
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:10,640
You know, I was in a battalion with people who had been on tour before, people who were

445
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,880
a lot older, a lot more experienced.

446
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:19,200
And you know, I have my fair share of crude jokes.

447
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:25,120
But once you kind of get with some of these kind of more weathered and worn people, you

448
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:33,080
really start to be like, wow, like, I am nothing like these people.

449
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:42,120
And so going from training, where I had, you know, where I had a group of maybe 25, 30

450
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:49,440
people that I spent six months with, I, you know, I still talk to a lot of them.

451
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,400
A lot of them are great friends of mine.

452
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:52,560
A few of them are still in.

453
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:57,000
A few of them got out after a few years.

454
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,720
I became very close with them people because I had to, you know, I was going to bed at

455
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,000
one in the morning and waking up at five in the morning.

456
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,520
And I was with these guys every single day.

457
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,520
And then when we got to a point in training where we were actually able to leave, you

458
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:16,760
know, the base, we would go out and we would go drinking and we would, you know, go paintballing

459
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,160
together and we would do everything together.

460
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:24,760
I think I went home in training like three times in six months.

461
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:31,320
And that was because Christmas and that was because I can't even remember what it was.

462
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:37,360
But like, it was just because I didn't have to go home and I didn't.

463
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,120
And so I was with these guys constantly.

464
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:46,960
And then in training, we were training for infantry, but not for battalion.

465
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,920
So then we get picked out of our, you know, we get to choose, okay, do you want to go

466
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,520
to this battalion, this battalion and, you know, okay, there's enough space for this

467
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:55,520
person, this person.

468
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,440
So I, you know, chose the first Royal Anglin Regiment.

469
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:04,560
And only about three of the people who I was in training with went over with me.

470
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:11,520
And then when I was there, my battalion had already, the day that I got there, they were

471
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:16,080
packing and then three days later they'd flown to Afghanistan.

472
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,960
And so I had to stay back to do the required training for two weeks before I could fly

473
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:22,880
out to Afghanistan.

474
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,420
Then I had to do more training in Afghanistan with random people.

475
00:32:26,420 --> 00:32:32,600
Then I had to become, you know, part of this battalion where we're brothers, we have each

476
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,640
other's backs, we, you know, would do anything for them.

477
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,840
I had no idea who they were.

478
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:43,600
How are they going to trust me to save their life if that really came down to it?

479
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:48,120
How are they going to, you know, allow the trust of me?

480
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:56,280
And it was a, it was a really kind of like difficult time and being 18 and being kind

481
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:02,960
of like this young, I was, I looked young.

482
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:04,760
I was young mentally.

483
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,720
I was naive, like all of these different kinds of things.

484
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:12,800
Like I went out there and I was just very shocked about kind of what predicament I'd

485
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:13,800
got myself in.

486
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:19,360
I found myself often thinking like if I had done the bar test again and chose one of these

487
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:27,240
different professions, would I be in a different, you know, state of mind right now?

488
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:33,280
So I want to ask you about the deployment and the way I phrase it really is because

489
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:38,120
and it's not so bad in the UK, I don't think, but certainly out here in America on, on the

490
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,320
media, we get a very polarized view of war.

491
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:45,080
You see the very pro war, kill them all, like I'd sort them out or a very anti war.

492
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:46,080
They're all baby killers.

493
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:51,280
And in the middle are literally in this case, the children that we send overseas wearing

494
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,200
our flag on their shoulder.

495
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:58,480
So you know, it's getting their actual perspective boots on the grounds perspective.

496
00:33:58,480 --> 00:33:59,760
And it's a two part question.

497
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:05,520
The first part, regardless of the politics that sent you to Afghanistan specifically,

498
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,400
was there a point where you witnessed some horrors that you realized there were some

499
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,960
horrific people that needed to be addressed?

500
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:16,240
That's a good question.

501
00:34:16,240 --> 00:34:17,840
Yes, I did.

502
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:25,720
Probably within the first five days of being there.

503
00:34:25,720 --> 00:34:28,520
This is a hard question.

504
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:34,560
I went out there because I was made to go out there.

505
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:39,560
Obviously I joined the infantry to do a job.

506
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,960
But when I was out there, I didn't really understand what we were out there for.

507
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:51,280
And my job in Afghanistan was to work with the Afghan national army and the Afghan national

508
00:34:51,280 --> 00:35:00,920
police to train them to work better together and to understand kind of like groupings and

509
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:05,120
you know, patrols and communications between others.

510
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:14,360
So that then when the British and the US armies left Afghanistan, they were able to go about

511
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,760
their lives as if we were still there.

512
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:23,920
But you know, with more of a kind of like slower pace because Taliban were retaliating

513
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:30,400
to issues with foreign militaries.

514
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:36,160
And I guess like it was one of these things where when we were there, we were trying to

515
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:37,160
do good.

516
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:42,920
But ultimately, like when I was there, I was like, why am I here?

517
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,720
I have no idea what I'm doing here.

518
00:35:45,720 --> 00:35:52,080
And I remember we were teaching people how to use an AK-47 as if they didn't already

519
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,640
know how to use an AK-47.

520
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:58,320
But it was, you know, we were on the firing range and we were looking at kind of like

521
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:05,320
groupings and we were looking at kind of like ways that you could kind of fire a weapon

522
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:09,440
and make sure it's safe for somebody and cover and all these different things.

523
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:14,160
And one guy just turned around with his AK and just pointed it straight in my face and

524
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,640
was saying something that I couldn't understand.

525
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:22,520
And I was like, you know, am I going to die?

526
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:23,520
Like I had no idea.

527
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:31,320
I'm trying to teach these people what to do and I'm literally staring down the barrel.

528
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:37,920
And then chaos breaks loose and everything kind of like is just kind of jumbled up because

529
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,800
people are just like trying to figure out what's going on.

530
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:47,200
And then the translator later on at dinner after we kind of settled it was like, oh,

531
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,560
yeah, he's Taliban.

532
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:54,160
He just wants to know what we're trying to train everybody.

533
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,800
And everyone was like, what?

534
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:01,280
So we're teaching the Taliban what we're meant to be teaching the Afghan National Army so

535
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:06,320
that then we can send them out so they already know what's going to happen.

536
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:07,320
So then what?

537
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:09,600
Like, why are we here?

538
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:10,600
What are we doing?

539
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,520
You know, and then no one said shit.

540
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:18,520
Like people were just like, oh, well, you know, they'll figure it out themselves, you know.

541
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:25,480
And it was kind of one of these things where it was like, I'm not talking badly on the

542
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:26,480
British military.

543
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,960
I'm talking badly on the Afghan military or the police.

544
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:37,320
But it was just a lot of people in one place not understanding what their role was, me

545
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:44,160
included, and people just wanting to be that hero.

546
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:51,600
And a lot of people in the military out there were just wanting, you know, kind of like

547
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:59,400
kill counts and just wanting kind of to feel like they can do something illegal legally.

548
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,360
And it didn't sit very right with me.

549
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,280
I've heard that from quite a few people.

550
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,880
And obviously, and I'm going to get to the other side of the coin, you know, there is

551
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:13,800
a lot that our men and women did in uniform, you know, that did make a difference.

552
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:19,320
They did add security and put water back in towns and reopen schools and those kind of

553
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:20,320
things.

554
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:24,160
But there's a lot of them that said we would just cycle.

555
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,760
You know, you get up, you do your patrol, you come back, you get it.

556
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,720
And they've never felt like there was a kind of, you know, a plan.

557
00:38:29,720 --> 00:38:32,080
Like what is the exit strategy?

558
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:40,080
And then you add in obviously the mass exodus of Afghanistan and now all these people that

559
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:45,400
serve that did so much, some left, you know, physical health there, you know, lost limbs,

560
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,560
some left their mental health there, some left, you know, their men and women deceased

561
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:50,560
there.

562
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:54,880
And then we pull out and then, you know, you add to that mental health question.

563
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:58,760
But I think as people are starting to unpack some of these conflicts now, I'm hearing more

564
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:04,360
and more Afghanistan, you know, Iraq, these veterans saying usually at the beginning,

565
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:06,080
yeah, we were doing good.

566
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,520
But then why did we stay and stay and stay and stay?

567
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:13,560
Now again, this is a firefighter talking, I am completely outside the circle looking

568
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:14,560
in.

569
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,520
But hearing these same kind of conversations over and over again, these are coming from

570
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,120
our men and women that were out there in these countries.

571
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:30,640
Yeah, and it's I also, you know, as just one person have kind of witnessed this.

572
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:36,140
And I've also spoken to a few people who I was in Afghanistan with about similar things.

573
00:39:36,140 --> 00:39:41,960
And so it's you know, is a very recurring kind of conversation.

574
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:48,120
And also, probably one of the main reasons why my mental health really did deteriorate

575
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:55,040
is because I felt like I was part of like a huge mass murder.

576
00:39:55,040 --> 00:40:00,720
And I was just another number put into this kind of thing where it was like, kill, kill,

577
00:40:00,720 --> 00:40:02,760
kill, let's just go for it.

578
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:13,160
And it's just, you know, I felt responsible for not the deaths of the bad people, but

579
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:22,560
the deaths of collateral damage, and people who didn't deserve it, and people who just

580
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,280
living their lives.

581
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:28,880
And you know, the kids throwing rocks at the mastiffs and everything like that.

582
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:33,320
It was like, these little shits that throwing rocks at us and blah, blah, blah.

583
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:37,600
But what would I have done at age 10 or 11?

584
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:43,360
If a different country had come over to the UK and were killing people like my uncle and

585
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:48,280
great uncle and cousins, and you know, didn't give a crap, and they were just rolling through

586
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:56,440
in big tanks and trucks and would just kind of like, I would have done the same, I would

587
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:58,160
have thrown rocks at them.

588
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:02,600
So looking back on it, you know, I was like, I feel terrible.

589
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:06,520
I feel sorry for these innocent people.

590
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:10,320
And yeah, a lot of my trauma is because of the kids.

591
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,400
Well, I mean, firstly, that's humanity.

592
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:14,920
You know, I mean, you should care.

593
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:15,920
And this is the thing.

594
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:16,920
This is it.

595
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:18,640
There shouldn't be shame in that thought.

596
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,240
Now, are you thinking about that in the middle of a gunfight?

597
00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:22,240
Of course not.

598
00:41:22,240 --> 00:41:25,200
You're trying to, you know, protect your own people and get home safe.

599
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,680
But you know, when you have that afterthought, absolutely.

600
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:32,320
And I've had many veterans on here that have been in tears talking about some of the collateral

601
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:35,840
damage, some of the innocents that were killed, you know, during some of the conflicts that

602
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:37,880
they were around.

603
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,680
But then there's also the organizational betrayal.

604
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:42,360
There's an element of trust.

605
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:46,640
If you are going to join a fire department, a police department, a military branch, that

606
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:51,360
the people above you are going to make the right decisions and minimize hopefully the

607
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:55,000
time of the conflict, minimize the collateral damage.

608
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,040
And then, you know, that doesn't happen.

609
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:00,960
Now you're kind of it's kind of a bait and switch.

610
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:05,240
Then you've got these men and women that signed up for the absolute right reasons, went out

611
00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:07,080
there for the right reasons.

612
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:11,920
And then on occasion, you know, they're asked to do the wrong things, you know, and the

613
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:16,800
things that is a reoccurring theme in Afghanistan specifically, a lot of the special forces

614
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:21,600
guys I had on here were like, we should have gone in primarily with special forces, taken

615
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:26,680
out the training camps, taken out the key targets and then left again.

616
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:28,400
You know, and even I've had Afghanis on here.

617
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,680
They're like, you are doing amazing things.

618
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,200
And then Iraq happened and it got diluted.

619
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:34,720
You all went there instead.

620
00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:36,280
Taliban got stronger.

621
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,260
And then we ended up staying there for decades.

622
00:42:38,260 --> 00:42:42,480
So again, fire fire that knows almost nothing about this.

623
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:47,480
But when I hear the same reoccurring thing, now you bring these men and women home and

624
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,100
they get to ruminate on what they did.

625
00:42:50,100 --> 00:42:53,720
This is one of the reasons why I think it haunts so many of our veterans.

626
00:42:53,720 --> 00:42:57,320
I definitely agree with that 100%.

627
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:01,640
Well the other side of the question is kindness and compassion, something we also don't really

628
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:03,080
see on our screens.

629
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:07,380
So in those those six months that you're out there, whether it's from your own soldiers

630
00:43:07,380 --> 00:43:12,120
or the indigenous people that you were there to help protect, what were moments of kindness

631
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:16,840
and compassion that you remember?

632
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:25,080
I remember that there was, we was on a patrol and I can't really remember exactly what happened,

633
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:28,520
but I remember that we were kind of like trapped.

634
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:35,000
Radio signal was a little bit bad and we were kind of like in this area where we were like,

635
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,400
I don't really know what we're doing here.

636
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:39,400
Something's wrong.

637
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:40,760
I know that something's wrong.

638
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:47,760
And this Afghani opened his doors and was basically like, come in.

639
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,160
You have a place to stay, you have shelter.

640
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:56,960
And I remember sitting on the floor surrounded by bowls of rice and bowls of different kind

641
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:58,960
of foods and breads.

642
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:03,640
And we took our shoes off and we went in and you know we were like, what the hell are we

643
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:04,640
doing here?

644
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:09,280
And then we took our like gloves off and we were just eating with our hands, with our

645
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:16,960
legs crossed on the floor with this family and we had no idea who they were.

646
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:22,600
And they just wanted to make sure that we were safe and that we were all right.

647
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:31,400
And then I, so I'm writing my book at the minute and we'll get probably onto that in

648
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:37,360
a little bit, but whilst writing my book, I have been kind of going back to times of

649
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:43,640
Afghanistan to times of Khan, Keanu, even, you know, growing up, I'm kind of doing an

650
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:47,560
autobiography, but with some, you know, some of the stories that I've done.

651
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:53,880
And it doesn't really fall under your question of kind of like kindness and compassion, but

652
00:44:53,880 --> 00:45:02,360
I remember going out one day and I was on top cover of the Mastiff.

653
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:07,200
There had been an explosion and it was like three in the morning and we had to go out

654
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:11,760
and so we went out and I had the night vision on and I remember just kind of pulling up

655
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:15,680
to this area and seeing people running off with like limbs.

656
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:19,920
And I remember like looking into the dirt and it was kind of blood stained and there

657
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:26,080
was like fingers and toes and whatever, you know, I could try and picture.

658
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:32,080
I can't even, it was so messed up that I didn't know what I was looking at.

659
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:38,880
And so we're kind of like in this between two mud walls in this Mastiff and I'm looking

660
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,000
about and I'm like, where the hell are these people going?

661
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,520
I don't know if I'm going to get shot at because I'm at the top.

662
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:45,640
Like I have no idea.

663
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:50,240
So the decision was made to turn back and come back when it was light.

664
00:45:50,240 --> 00:45:55,480
And so we got back and I remember just like laying on my cot bed, just shaking because

665
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,720
I was like, what are we going to go back to tomorrow?

666
00:45:58,720 --> 00:46:04,440
And we went back and there was rocks piled on top of each other.

667
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:12,420
And it's a way that the kind of kids in Afghanistan let other people know that there's an explosion

668
00:46:12,420 --> 00:46:15,040
or an explosive in the area.

669
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:19,080
And they put these rocks out as kind of like a warning.

670
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:23,360
And I remember pulling up and seeing these rocks piled up and piled up on each side because

671
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:25,360
I was on the top cover again.

672
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:30,340
And we get to this area where we had just turned around and there was bloodstained sand

673
00:46:30,340 --> 00:46:32,360
everywhere.

674
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:34,400
And I'm just absolutely petrified.

675
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:36,280
I'm like, these people have been here.

676
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:38,120
I just saw them running away.

677
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:39,520
Are they still in hiding?

678
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:41,480
What is going on?

679
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:46,400
And then all of a sudden I'm just like reflecting on my life.

680
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:48,000
Am I going to see my family again?

681
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:52,280
Like all these things running through my head and this Kingfisher just flies up and just

682
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,240
lands like on the wall.

683
00:46:55,240 --> 00:46:56,960
And I don't know what species it was.

684
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:04,720
It had like oranges and blues and whites and like it was just like this beacon of hope,

685
00:47:04,720 --> 00:47:06,080
you know?

686
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:11,000
And it just changed my mood completely.

687
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:15,920
And in my book, I talk a lot about my mental health and how animals and how nature have

688
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:19,120
healed in many ways.

689
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:22,440
And people underestimate the beauty of Afghanistan.

690
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:26,240
It is an absolutely incredible and beautiful country.

691
00:47:26,240 --> 00:47:33,800
And I would go there happily again just to see the beauty of it again.

692
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:42,000
And this moment of Kingfisher calmed my nerves, calmed my anxiety, calmed everything.

693
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:46,180
The team got out and they did, you know, their sweep, just checking if there was any more

694
00:47:46,180 --> 00:47:47,780
explosions anywhere.

695
00:47:47,780 --> 00:47:52,920
There was not the people who were trying to bury the IED had blown themselves up trying

696
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:54,720
to place it to kill us.

697
00:47:54,720 --> 00:48:01,080
It was something along the lines of like a five or six kilogram explosive that would

698
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:05,880
have easily shot the tire of a mastiff, you know, 200 feet.

699
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:08,800
Like it was a big explosion.

700
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:17,400
And just the surrounding and the natural beauty and everything just changed my whole viewpoint

701
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:29,240
of that one experience going from death, destruction, anxiety ridden, like horrible feeling to then

702
00:48:29,240 --> 00:48:30,240
one animal.

703
00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:32,440
And that was it.

704
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:33,440
Amazing.

705
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:37,600
Well, I want to get to that part of your journey before we do.

706
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:42,640
When you reflect, how embedded were you in nature?

707
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:47,720
And did you have any pets growing up prior to even entering the military?

708
00:48:47,720 --> 00:48:51,920
Yeah, growing up, I always wanted a snake.

709
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:53,720
That was like one thing that I always wanted.

710
00:48:53,720 --> 00:48:57,240
Mum and dad were like, no, we'll compromise and we'll get you a hamster.

711
00:48:57,240 --> 00:49:04,880
So I named the hamster Snakey because I was like this.

712
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:07,760
And then, you know, I was like, still want to snake and they're like, let's get some

713
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:08,760
rabbits.

714
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:13,560
And, you know, we had a dog as well and cats.

715
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:18,520
And I remember when I got my first snake, I was just like over the moon and just like

716
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:24,480
a red rat snake, a corn snake, you know, what you have in Florida.

717
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:29,240
And yeah, so I kind of grew up and I was actually talking about this with my with my neighbor.

718
00:49:29,240 --> 00:49:33,400
I walk our dogs in the back of the forest where I live.

719
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:38,280
And we were talking about, you know, because I grew up in naval bases, was there like any

720
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:41,720
forests and stuff that I could kind of escape to.

721
00:49:41,720 --> 00:49:46,000
And, you know, there were there were kind of like wooded areas that we could go to and

722
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,960
we'd walk the dogs and living in Scotland for seven years, there were mountains and

723
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:52,360
just like it was it was really beautiful.

724
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:57,680
But I never really like and because I was so young, I had to kind of obviously do what

725
00:49:57,680 --> 00:49:58,680
mum and dad were doing.

726
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:04,960
So I never really like I never really kind of like went into nature just alone.

727
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:09,040
But when I moved to Essex, I got into trouble all the time with my parents because they

728
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:10,960
would be like, right, you got to be back at this time.

729
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:11,960
You can't go to the forest.

730
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:12,960
You can't do this.

731
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:16,600
I would go to the forest every single time I would ride my bike.

732
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:20,960
I'd go to the park and I'd go over the little like BMX tracks and I would just wander in

733
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:22,840
the forest.

734
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:28,000
And I remember when I was younger, mum was like, Harry, don't go to the forest.

735
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,200
You've got to be back in like an hour for dinner.

736
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,040
Do not go into the forest.

737
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:40,040
And I went into the forest, climbed this tree, fell out of this tree and landed on this like

738
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:45,080
broken branch and it went straight into my back, like kind of like my lower back.

739
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:50,400
And there was blood and I had a snack part of kind of stick in my back.

740
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:55,360
And on the walk home, I found this feather and I picked it up and I was like, how am

741
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:56,360
I going to tell mum?

742
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:57,360
Like, what am I going to do?

743
00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:58,360
Like, do I lie?

744
00:50:58,360 --> 00:50:59,360
Do I not?

745
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:01,840
And I went back and I was like, well, I found this feather in a tree.

746
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,640
So I climbed it and I fell out.

747
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:06,120
She was like, you're so full of shit.

748
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:11,120
I was like, damn, like she's like, I told you not to go to the forest.

749
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:17,400
But every moment I could, I was trying to get to nature as much as I could.

750
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:27,800
And so I think it was just natural for me to try and kind of get to a, I don't know,

751
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:32,960
I guess it was just natural for me to just want to be outdoors, but becoming a teenager

752
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:38,720
and becoming kind of like conscious of the fact that I needed a career and I needed money

753
00:51:38,720 --> 00:51:40,000
and I needed these things.

754
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:46,780
It kind of like stopped me from going to nature until I went.

755
00:51:46,780 --> 00:51:53,060
So let's talk about then you come back from Afghanistan, kind of lead me through that

756
00:51:53,060 --> 00:51:59,280
downward spiral that you found yourself before you ended up deciding to go to Peru.

757
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:01,080
Yeah.

758
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:08,880
I came back and was ruminating about everything that I had seen and done.

759
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:17,080
And I was drinking heavily and my nightmares were becoming awful.

760
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:25,840
I remember having to listen to this one album from Radiohead, The Bends, and I just had

761
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:29,520
to listen to it on repeat because that was the only album I found that would help me

762
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:31,040
go to sleep.

763
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:36,600
And it was the kind of like, I don't even know how to call the noises, but it's like

764
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:48,040
the reverberation kind of sounds in that album really helped me calm down.

765
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:55,640
Because I needed to do something to help me sleep and the alcohol wasn't helping and I

766
00:52:55,640 --> 00:53:02,360
was not really, I didn't really have a purpose because we'd come back from Opera XVI and

767
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:10,520
we didn't really have any kind of goals in sight.

768
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:16,320
We were just in the barracks and we were just having to keep fit and just in case we might

769
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:21,760
have to go back in a year or two years or whatever, we're going to continue to do classes

770
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:26,520
and lessons and we'd go to the fire and range every now and again.

771
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:32,280
But I started just losing my mind and I started thinking about suicide and I started thinking

772
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:45,240
about self-harming and I just was getting so heavily intoxicated that these kind of

773
00:53:45,240 --> 00:53:54,000
like thoughts became like what ifs, you know, what if I did kill myself.

774
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:56,800
I wasn't just thinking like, oh, you know, go hang yourself.

775
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,040
It was like, how would I hang myself?

776
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:00,080
Where would I hang myself?

777
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:07,360
How would I hang myself in a way that wouldn't upset my family members or friends?

778
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:12,440
And then all my friends that, you know, my brothers that I was in the military with were

779
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:18,400
just drinking and having fun and in my head I was thinking, how are these guys okay?

780
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:23,000
Like what's wrong with me?

781
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:34,440
And so I was packing to go on like a week long exercise and I had everything kind of

782
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:37,080
like scattered out in my room.

783
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:42,400
I needed to take, you know, I needed to take my first aid kit and I needed to take, you

784
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:48,960
know, my waterproof notebooks and different socks and talcum powders and underwear and

785
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:52,080
I need to take this and this and this and I'm just like looking at everything on the

786
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:58,640
ground and I was just like, just, I was like, I don't want to fucking be here.

787
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:02,320
Like, I really don't want to go on this exercise.

788
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:05,200
I'm not in a good head space.

789
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:06,520
I can't do this.

790
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:16,240
And so I went to my, I think I went to my corporal at the time and was like, look, I'm

791
00:55:16,240 --> 00:55:17,480
really not doing good.

792
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:19,040
Like who do I go and see?

793
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:20,360
I don't know who to talk to.

794
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:21,360
I don't know what to do.

795
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:31,120
And he said, how about you go to, how about you go and speak to the Padre?

796
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:32,120
And I was like, okay.

797
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:38,920
So I went and spoke to this, this guy and he was like, you know, do you believe in God?

798
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:40,280
And I was like, fuck no.

799
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:43,920
Like my grandma died and I really like don't believe in God.

800
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:44,920
Like this sucks.

801
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:50,200
Like I just got back from Afghanistan and if you believe that there's a God, then something's

802
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:52,520
wrong because like, no, I don't.

803
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:53,520
And he's like, okay.

804
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:55,520
You know, how are things going?

805
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:57,880
I was like, I am not doing good.

806
00:55:57,880 --> 00:55:59,240
Like I don't want to be here.

807
00:55:59,240 --> 00:56:00,240
I don't want to go home.

808
00:56:00,240 --> 00:56:01,440
I don't know where I want to be.

809
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:02,440
I can't sleep.

810
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:03,920
I have no appetite.

811
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:07,720
I'm drinking so much vodka just to try and help myself.

812
00:56:07,720 --> 00:56:15,000
Like I, I'm lost and he goes, right, I think you need to go see, like, I need to think

813
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:19,240
you need to go get like an examination done in the medical office.

814
00:56:19,240 --> 00:56:27,880
And so I went to the medical office and I was just sat there for hours.

815
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:28,880
Nobody spoke to me.

816
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:30,840
Nobody came out and I was like, fuck this.

817
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:31,840
I don't want to be here.

818
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:35,040
Like this is, this is done.

819
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:40,560
And so I left and I went back to the part where I said, I went there for hours and nobody

820
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:41,560
saw me.

821
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:42,560
Nobody spoke to me.

822
00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:47,000
Like I know that I'm not the only person in this world, but like that was just pure disrespect.

823
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:48,240
Like I don't want to be here.

824
00:56:48,240 --> 00:56:49,720
I'm going to, I'm going to go home.

825
00:56:49,720 --> 00:56:52,680
And he goes, you can't go home.

826
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:56,720
You need to get a letter to go home and you need to go through this process.

827
00:56:56,720 --> 00:56:57,880
And so he said, I'll go with you.

828
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:02,520
So the next day he goes with me and we sit there and I go in and they go, so what are

829
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:05,080
you, you know, what are you thinking about?

830
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:07,120
And I was like, I don't know, like suicide.

831
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:09,800
And they're like, okay.

832
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:11,080
Have you attempted suicide?

833
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:12,080
No.

834
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:13,080
Okay.

835
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:14,960
Well, what are you doing to kind of like get over that?

836
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:17,880
And I was like, what do you mean get over it?

837
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:19,640
Like I have no idea.

838
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:21,720
Like what kind of questions are these?

839
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:27,440
And I just remember getting so angry and I was like, are you, are you joking me?

840
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:34,920
Like I'm here asking for help and you're basically just like questioning me as if I'm like a

841
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:36,840
suspect in a murder or something.

842
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:40,200
Like what the, and I was just like, this is absolutely ridiculous.

843
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:44,320
I was like, give me a note so I can go home because I'm not doing this exercise.

844
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:45,320
I don't want to be here.

845
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:48,000
And they were like, well, have you thought about suicide?

846
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:50,320
And I was like, absolutely.

847
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:56,520
And so they wrote me a note saying, you know, private Turner has thought about suicide.

848
00:57:56,520 --> 00:58:00,960
He should not be able to use or be anywhere near a weapon.

849
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:05,160
And so when we would go on exercise and when we would go out running with all of our equipment,

850
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:12,280
they gave me this wooden gun, like a wooden kind of like cut out of like a SA-80 assault

851
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:13,880
rifle.

852
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:19,360
And I had to hold this wooden piece of just cut out kind of like plywood whilst everyone

853
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:20,360
was running.

854
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:21,720
They're like, why the fuck are you holding that?

855
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:23,920
Why are you holding that piece of wood?

856
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:26,480
And I was like, cause I told them that I was depressed.

857
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:30,240
And then they basically like have shunned me and they told me I'm not allowed to use

858
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:34,020
a weapon, even though there's no ammunition, there's no nothing.

859
00:58:34,020 --> 00:58:39,600
We have basically screwed this kind of like yellow cap onto the end of the rifle, you

860
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:44,560
know, so that when you do have blanks, just in case someone messes them up, it would,

861
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:48,840
you know, not kill anybody.

862
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:55,840
And I just got made fun of, like this young kid who can't hack it is now running about

863
00:58:55,840 --> 00:59:00,800
in the field with, you know, everyone who he was on tour with, with a wooden cut out

864
00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:01,800
of an assault rifle.

865
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:03,280
And I was like, you know what?

866
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:09,960
And I went to, I went to my Sergeant Major at the time and I, and I just said to him,

867
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:12,800
I was like, you can keep the wooden cut out.

868
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:14,320
I'm, I'm leaving.

869
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:20,840
I'm not until you can like figure out how to deal with mental health and until you can

870
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:23,800
figure out, you know, and he felt awful.

871
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:25,160
I'm still talk to him.

872
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:28,040
He's a, he's a great guy, but he felt awful.

873
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:29,400
And he said, look, here we go.

874
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:30,400
Here's a note.

875
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:32,280
Go home for a month.

876
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:34,880
Do what you need to do with family, with friends.

877
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:37,320
Like you'll still get paid, go back.

878
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:41,800
And when you come back, hopefully you're refreshed a little bit and we can kind of like talk

879
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:46,640
about medical discharge or we can talk about something like that.

880
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:55,640
And so I went home and got drunk every single day, but didn't know how to deal with it.

881
00:59:55,640 --> 01:00:00,720
Um, was, I don't know.

882
01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:04,560
I didn't have a purpose yet again, still.

883
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:11,440
And so I was just at home, just struggling, living under a roof with my parents, which,

884
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:16,160
um, you know, after you've left home and then you're forced to go back into home with your

885
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:22,640
parents, even though they love you unconditionally and you love them and you are grateful and

886
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:26,160
thankful for everything they've ever done for you in your whole life.

887
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:27,160
It's not the same.

888
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:28,520
I've been to war.

889
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:29,520
I was struggling.

890
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:31,920
Mom and dad were like, Harry dinner's ready.

891
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:34,840
And I'm like, no, I can't do this.

892
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:41,520
Like this is, I love you guys, but please, like, I can't just be like, I can't come back

893
01:00:41,520 --> 01:00:45,000
into this setting and be normal and be okay.

894
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:46,000
And so I wasn't.

895
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:53,120
And so I went back and I got medically discharged and, um, it took a very long time.

896
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:57,440
And as soon as I got medical discharge, they said, it's not P you don't have PTSD.

897
01:00:57,440 --> 01:01:03,240
You, um, you have a current depression, uh, because they asked me about my grandma.

898
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:06,200
Uh, and they said, oh yeah, you were depressed back then.

899
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:07,440
So this is just part of it.

900
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:11,920
And I was just, it's just recurrent, you know, like I was like, I thought recurring like

901
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:14,440
happened multiple times.

902
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:15,440
Like I was young.

903
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:16,440
My grandma died.

904
01:01:16,440 --> 01:01:17,440
I got upset.

905
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:19,720
I told you about it and now you're using it against me.

906
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:23,000
Like I just don't get it.

907
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:25,880
And so anyway, they, they discharged me.

908
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:31,760
I had a little bit of money in my account and I just, I just was like, I need to kill

909
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:34,400
myself and I don't know how to do it.

910
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:39,960
So I Googled, um, volunteer work in the Amazon rainforest.

911
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:42,000
I found a place called fauna forever.

912
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:45,160
Uh, they had a reptile and amphibian program.

913
01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:48,140
I said, I'm going to go there and I'm going to kill myself.

914
01:01:48,140 --> 01:01:53,240
My mom and dad and brother and sister will think that it was an accident from either

915
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:57,720
a venomous snake or a tree fall, or, you know, just being in a dangerous country.

916
01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:05,120
Nobody in my family had ever been to South America before me and, uh, booked a ticket

917
01:02:05,120 --> 01:02:07,920
sold as much things as I could.

918
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:14,520
And uh, and I went there and I had the intention to commit suicide.

919
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:17,160
So talk to me about what happened when you got there then.

920
01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:23,040
So you, you know, you've grown up in the UK, then you go to Afghanistan for war.

921
01:02:23,040 --> 01:02:24,760
You come back to the UK.

922
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:27,380
Now you find yourself in a Peruvian rainforest.

923
01:02:27,380 --> 01:02:32,000
So what would the, you know, what were the following weeks and months like for you and

924
01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:36,480
how did that shift that suicide ideation?

925
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:46,480
So in my, uh, anger and complete, uh, mental block that I had, I had just, you know, blinds

926
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:47,480
on.

927
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:57,200
I, uh, I booked this trip with the intention not to return even, I bought a return flight

928
01:02:57,200 --> 01:02:58,920
because I didn't want it to look suspicious.

929
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:03,640
If I was just going to go there, you know, I, I need, I wanted to make it look as if

930
01:03:03,640 --> 01:03:08,960
like I was actually kind of like trying to figure myself out.

931
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:16,840
And when I landed after a 30 hour trip, um, from the UK, I then, you know, had to go to,

932
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:23,720
uh, I think I went to the U S and then down from the U S I stopped in Columbia and then

933
01:03:23,720 --> 01:03:24,720
I landed in Lima.

934
01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:30,000
And then I had a flight from Lima to Puerto, which is like the jungle kind of town.

935
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:37,680
It took me about 30 something hours to get to Puerto and I get there and I get out and

936
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:42,920
I'm wearing like black jeans and like a black t-shirt with a black hoodie.

937
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:49,800
And I have my like military duffel bag filled with kind of clothes and you know, some essentials

938
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:53,240
I thought that I might be needing.

939
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:57,200
And uh, I had no idea what they were saying.

940
01:03:57,200 --> 01:03:59,960
I didn't even know they spoke Spanish.

941
01:03:59,960 --> 01:04:08,520
And then I was like looking in my wallet and I was like, I have British pounds on me.

942
01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:10,560
What currency do they use here?

943
01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:12,240
Like how am I meant to pay for a taxi?

944
01:04:12,240 --> 01:04:13,240
I have no idea.

945
01:04:13,240 --> 01:04:14,240
Literally no idea.

946
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:19,520
And I look, and I was looking through my emails because I'd screenshot it on my phone, some

947
01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:26,520
emails because I didn't have, um, internet roaming for international.

948
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:31,520
And I think I was with like orange at the time and I'm like looking and I'm like, okay,

949
01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:36,680
so I'm meant to meet somebody here, but I have no idea who this person is.

950
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:43,720
And I'm surrounded by Peruvians who are all like, you know, tiny little people just rushing

951
01:04:43,720 --> 01:04:49,560
about, grabbing their bags, speaking Spanish at a thousand miles an hour, doing this, doing

952
01:04:49,560 --> 01:04:52,000
this taxi, taxi, taxi, taxi.

953
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:55,800
And I'm like, what have I done?

954
01:04:55,800 --> 01:04:58,960
I don't know what I'm doing here.

955
01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:05,520
And then out of the kind of like combination of like Hispanic people, this like white girl

956
01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:08,000
just walks towards me and shows you're Harry.

957
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:10,120
And I was like, thank God.

958
01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:11,120
Yeah, yeah, I'm Harry.

959
01:05:11,120 --> 01:05:12,120
She was like, oh, okay.

960
01:05:12,120 --> 01:05:13,120
I'm Zoe.

961
01:05:13,120 --> 01:05:14,360
And I was like, hi Zoe.

962
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:19,240
Like, ah, what do you do here?

963
01:05:19,240 --> 01:05:23,200
She's like, well, I'm like the volunteer intern and you know, I'm helping you get from A

964
01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:27,260
to B and you're going to be going up river in about two days, but there's been some rain.

965
01:05:27,260 --> 01:05:30,200
So we're not sure if you're going to be going up.

966
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:36,080
And then I get to this place and I dropped my bags off and everyone, and I'm just alone

967
01:05:36,080 --> 01:05:42,480
in this house and the police come and the police are like, there's been five missing

968
01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:47,720
people, you know, your volunteer group was here.

969
01:05:47,720 --> 01:05:51,880
And I'm just in my shorts.

970
01:05:51,880 --> 01:05:55,240
First day being there, not knowing what these people are saying in Spanish.

971
01:05:55,240 --> 01:05:58,360
I, you know, it was bit, someone was there translating.

972
01:05:58,360 --> 01:06:01,800
And I was like, I don't know anything about these missing people.

973
01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:03,000
Like I've just landed.

974
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:04,160
I have no idea.

975
01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:08,760
Well, the week before I landed there, there was a group that went out and they rushed

976
01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:13,640
back to go and see a football match and there was a tree fall.

977
01:06:13,640 --> 01:06:17,520
So they went around it and got lost for like three days in the forest.

978
01:06:17,520 --> 01:06:21,000
So I go to this place and then they're like, there's police everywhere and they're doing

979
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:22,000
all this.

980
01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:25,440
And, and then I'm like, dude, this is, I don't know what I'm doing.

981
01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:26,960
This is absolutely chaos.

982
01:06:26,960 --> 01:06:28,560
I have no idea.

983
01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:30,200
It was raining constantly.

984
01:06:30,200 --> 01:06:31,640
They said, Oh, you're going to go up tomorrow.

985
01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:33,240
So I packed all my bags up.

986
01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:34,240
No, it's too much rain.

987
01:06:34,240 --> 01:06:35,680
You're going to go up the next day.

988
01:06:35,680 --> 01:06:36,680
I packed my bags.

989
01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:37,680
Okay.

990
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:41,240
Like we can go and took like seven hours to drive to this boat.

991
01:06:41,240 --> 01:06:43,880
And then on this boat, we were in the rain all the way up.

992
01:06:43,880 --> 01:06:46,880
All of my stuff was soaked.

993
01:06:46,880 --> 01:06:50,960
I was like, Oh man, like, what am I doing?

994
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:53,600
Like, right.

995
01:06:53,600 --> 01:06:55,960
Eat some food.

996
01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:57,600
Figure it out.

997
01:06:57,600 --> 01:07:00,560
Figure out how you're going to kill yourself over the next few days and just do it.

998
01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:04,240
Just get it done with like, there's people being lost everywhere.

999
01:07:04,240 --> 01:07:05,880
You don't know what language they speak.

1000
01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:08,880
Like it's going to be very easy for you to kill yourself.

1001
01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:09,880
That's it.

1002
01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:10,880
Right.

1003
01:07:10,880 --> 01:07:18,720
So next morning I wake up and the dreams I had were just absolutely nuts.

1004
01:07:18,720 --> 01:07:22,040
You're in a place with no wifi, with no nothing.

1005
01:07:22,040 --> 01:07:23,880
The sounds of the jungle are everywhere.

1006
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:28,040
There's a little bit of electricity from a generator that you can charge your stuff,

1007
01:07:28,040 --> 01:07:30,480
but they turn it off.

1008
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:35,240
I meet a few people there and I go out and I catch some snakes and I'm going out and

1009
01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:42,520
doing bird surveys and I see my first ever monkey and I see my first ever toucan and

1010
01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:46,600
I see my first ever macaws and I'm just like, okay, all right.

1011
01:07:46,600 --> 01:07:47,600
Yeah.

1012
01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:48,600
Okay.

1013
01:07:48,600 --> 01:07:49,600
Tomorrow you're going to kill yourself.

1014
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:54,960
I see my first ever fergalance and it's like five and a half, six foot.

1015
01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:58,240
This venomous viper, like this snake is just absolutely gorgeous.

1016
01:07:58,240 --> 01:08:02,960
And I'm like, God damn, like I grew up with a corn snake.

1017
01:08:02,960 --> 01:08:05,480
Like this is just blowing my mind.

1018
01:08:05,480 --> 01:08:09,440
And then I'm finding all these different vipers and all these different things and I'm seeing

1019
01:08:09,440 --> 01:08:16,000
all these different monkeys and they're coming down to like, just eat these fruits in these

1020
01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:23,280
trees and I'm just like surrounded by nothing but nature and people in like minded conditions

1021
01:08:23,280 --> 01:08:25,960
and views, right?

1022
01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:31,480
And every morning you're going to kill yourself.

1023
01:08:31,480 --> 01:08:32,480
Today you're going to kill yourself.

1024
01:08:32,480 --> 01:08:33,480
Today you're going to kill yourself.

1025
01:08:33,480 --> 01:08:34,480
Today you're going to kill yourself.

1026
01:08:34,480 --> 01:08:36,920
Today you're going to kill yourself.

1027
01:08:36,920 --> 01:08:43,760
And then I went out fishing on one Sunday and went out fishing, caught a bunch of fish.

1028
01:08:43,760 --> 01:08:47,960
We were going to come back and we were going to fry it up and we're going to eat it with

1029
01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:50,960
rice and salad.

1030
01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:55,720
And I caught my first big catfish in the Amazon and I was just like, this is cool.

1031
01:08:55,720 --> 01:08:56,720
I'm going to eat this.

1032
01:08:56,720 --> 01:09:03,080
Like this is what I, I'm not going to bloody Tesco and buying fish out of like a fridge.

1033
01:09:03,080 --> 01:09:07,160
I'm catching it in the river and I'm eating it.

1034
01:09:07,160 --> 01:09:12,520
And on the way back there's like the cores flying everywhere and then the sun starts

1035
01:09:12,520 --> 01:09:19,280
to go down and the bats start taking place with the birds and the sun is reflecting on

1036
01:09:19,280 --> 01:09:24,440
the river and the boat engine is in the back and we just kind of like slowly just going

1037
01:09:24,440 --> 01:09:29,120
up river and I'm just sat on the boat with like my boots just kind of like dangling over

1038
01:09:29,120 --> 01:09:30,120
the edge.

1039
01:09:30,120 --> 01:09:36,640
And I just thought, why do you want to kill yourself?

1040
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:40,960
You have a family at home that loves you.

1041
01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:49,440
You have like everything that you could possibly ever need.

1042
01:09:49,440 --> 01:09:50,880
You're struggling.

1043
01:09:50,880 --> 01:09:55,100
You're sad.

1044
01:09:55,100 --> 01:09:58,720
Like why do you want to kill yourself?

1045
01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:03,520
Your little brother at the time, I think he was like eight or nine at the time, your little

1046
01:10:03,520 --> 01:10:09,280
brother is going to miss you and your parents are going to think what they did wrong and

1047
01:10:09,280 --> 01:10:18,520
your sister is going to cry for days and your friends are going to wonder what happened.

1048
01:10:18,520 --> 01:10:24,520
And I just remember like thinking like, why do you want to kill yourself?

1049
01:10:24,520 --> 01:10:28,040
You know, like I had this like epiphany and it was just like on the front of the boat

1050
01:10:28,040 --> 01:10:36,680
and I just was like, I don't know, I just went back and I ate the fish that I caught

1051
01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:41,840
and I charged my lights and I went on a hike and I found some cool animals and I was just

1052
01:10:41,840 --> 01:10:47,440
like, you'll be all right.

1053
01:10:47,440 --> 01:10:53,120
And then I spent another two weeks in the jungle and every day I just loved life.

1054
01:10:53,120 --> 01:11:00,640
I just loved waking up and I just loved walking and I just loved the rain and I loved the

1055
01:11:00,640 --> 01:11:05,760
food and I loved the people there and I loved like the colors seemed colorful again and

1056
01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:17,400
the smell smelled smelly and the just I just could hear again and I could like, I don't

1057
01:11:17,400 --> 01:11:24,240
know, the gray had just lifted from me after two weeks being in the jungle, 14 days being

1058
01:11:24,240 --> 01:11:26,800
in the jungle.

1059
01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:31,840
And so I was like, you're going to go home and you're going to spend time with your family

1060
01:11:31,840 --> 01:11:35,800
and you're going to get a job outdoors and you're going to go do whatever you want, go

1061
01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:40,960
to music festivals, go to this, go to that, whatever.

1062
01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:46,080
And so I did, you know, I went home, I didn't kill myself, I went home, I didn't even try

1063
01:11:46,080 --> 01:11:49,720
to after them 14 days.

1064
01:11:49,720 --> 01:11:57,840
I went back and you know, I started doing bits and pieces and I got a job on a farm

1065
01:11:57,840 --> 01:12:03,480
and I went to a festival called Sonosphere and during that festival I saw Alice in Chains

1066
01:12:03,480 --> 01:12:11,800
and Master Don and Metallica and just saw like some incredible bands and was getting

1067
01:12:11,800 --> 01:12:20,720
paid and was living, you know, like a really awesome summer and just was, I don't know,

1068
01:12:20,720 --> 01:12:22,480
just living my life.

1069
01:12:22,480 --> 01:12:32,440
And then winter came again and I hadn't been in nature for a while and it started slowly

1070
01:12:32,440 --> 01:12:38,200
getting worse and worse and worse and worse and that's when I tried to hang myself.

1071
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:46,280
And then after that failed, it was a really shitty attempt, you know, I guess if you've

1072
01:12:46,280 --> 01:12:50,640
ever been so depressed you think that something will help and then when you look back on it

1073
01:12:50,640 --> 01:12:54,840
you're like that was so fucking dumb, like why did you even try and attempt suicide in

1074
01:12:54,840 --> 01:12:56,400
that way?

1075
01:12:56,400 --> 01:13:01,840
And I was like, you know what, I'm selling everything.

1076
01:13:01,840 --> 01:13:07,920
I sold my car, I sold my shoes, I sold my TV, I sold absolutely everything and I said

1077
01:13:07,920 --> 01:13:11,160
I'm going to the jungle, I'm not going to come back.

1078
01:13:11,160 --> 01:13:16,040
So I did, you know, I saved up all of the money that I could potentially save up before

1079
01:13:16,040 --> 01:13:17,400
my flight.

1080
01:13:17,400 --> 01:13:22,960
I flew to Peru and that's kind of like when, you know, I went back to the same river that

1081
01:13:22,960 --> 01:13:31,600
I had had my epiphany on and then that's kind of where filming started for my documentary.

1082
01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:35,280
I didn't mean for it to be a documentary, you know, I just was filming because I was

1083
01:13:35,280 --> 01:13:42,120
living like this incredible life.

1084
01:13:42,120 --> 01:13:46,120
So as, you know, we start seeing you through the film, you know, you obviously, it's you

1085
01:13:46,120 --> 01:13:51,920
and Sam, they're together and then you come across an Esselott called Khan.

1086
01:13:51,920 --> 01:13:59,000
So walk me through again the element of healing that you found through bonding with a cat.

1087
01:13:59,000 --> 01:14:10,320
Yeah, so I kind of was there and this Esselott needed help, you know, it was taken from its

1088
01:14:10,320 --> 01:14:14,600
mother whether the mother was killed or whether it was just kind of found in a tree that they

1089
01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:20,520
had cut down and they were going to take it to sell it for more money because you could

1090
01:14:20,520 --> 01:14:25,320
sell an Esselott for more than what the trees were, honestly.

1091
01:14:25,320 --> 01:14:34,600
And we argued for like seven hours forwards and backwards and, you know, these Peruvian

1092
01:14:34,600 --> 01:14:37,960
guys had machetes and shotguns and they're like, we're not giving you this cat.

1093
01:14:37,960 --> 01:14:41,600
And I'm like, I don't want this cat.

1094
01:14:41,600 --> 01:14:43,360
This cat needs help.

1095
01:14:43,360 --> 01:14:47,080
If you take it on this road and you take it back, it's going to die.

1096
01:14:47,080 --> 01:14:48,440
You're not going to get any money for it.

1097
01:14:48,440 --> 01:14:49,680
You're not going to get anything for it.

1098
01:14:49,680 --> 01:14:51,520
They said, buy off me $250.

1099
01:14:51,520 --> 01:15:00,520
As I dude, if I had $250, I would consider it, but I do not have $250.

1100
01:15:00,520 --> 01:15:02,340
And I'm a white guy.

1101
01:15:02,340 --> 01:15:11,680
If I am seen buying a wild, you know, exotic animal from you guys, I'm fueling a fire,

1102
01:15:11,680 --> 01:15:14,760
which is just never ever going to be put out.

1103
01:15:14,760 --> 01:15:17,280
And I was like, I'm not buying it from you.

1104
01:15:17,280 --> 01:15:19,880
Like I'm going to argue with you and I'm going to try educate you.

1105
01:15:19,880 --> 01:15:23,640
And I'm going to say, look, I think that this is going to be a better idea.

1106
01:15:23,640 --> 01:15:28,220
And so I bought them dinner instead of paying for the animal.

1107
01:15:28,220 --> 01:15:32,600
I bought them dinner and said, look, you've spent time and money bringing this cat down.

1108
01:15:32,600 --> 01:15:37,280
I understand living a life is not easy.

1109
01:15:37,280 --> 01:15:39,680
Here's some food.

1110
01:15:39,680 --> 01:15:42,240
Let's eat and let's talk about it.

1111
01:15:42,240 --> 01:15:50,200
And I took this tiny two and a half week old ocelot back and I remember like laying in

1112
01:15:50,200 --> 01:15:54,240
my hammock and just had him kind of like on my shoulder.

1113
01:15:54,240 --> 01:16:00,160
And he was just kind of like, he was so sick, you know, his, his stomach was bloated with

1114
01:16:00,160 --> 01:16:04,000
parasites and he was just like really lethargic.

1115
01:16:04,000 --> 01:16:11,600
And so I gave him some, some kind of like anti parasitical medicine with very, very,

1116
01:16:11,600 --> 01:16:13,720
very small doses because he was so young.

1117
01:16:13,720 --> 01:16:14,720
His eyes weren't even open.

1118
01:16:14,720 --> 01:16:21,320
You know, like ocelots usually as, as most kittens do, they usually open their eyes after

1119
01:16:21,320 --> 01:16:22,600
two and a bit weeks.

1120
01:16:22,600 --> 01:16:26,720
And then they start to kind of like, they have very blue eyes and they, they can visually

1121
01:16:26,720 --> 01:16:29,560
see it like about a month and a bit.

1122
01:16:29,560 --> 01:16:31,440
So his eyes weren't even open.

1123
01:16:31,440 --> 01:16:37,160
Like he was like sick, so I'm giving him these small doses and I'm giving him milk.

1124
01:16:37,160 --> 01:16:44,640
And I'm like, you know, just sleeping with him and making sure he's resting and just,

1125
01:16:44,640 --> 01:16:50,600
he was so young, I had to like get a piece of wet tissue and like basically like rub

1126
01:16:50,600 --> 01:16:55,480
his penis with it so that he would pee because his mom would usually stimulate him to pee

1127
01:16:55,480 --> 01:17:01,440
so that he wasn't just peeing over everything, you know, in the fallen tree or, or wherever

1128
01:17:01,440 --> 01:17:04,160
he would have been born.

1129
01:17:04,160 --> 01:17:09,880
And so, and I, and I knew this because, you know, growing up we had, you know, animals,

1130
01:17:09,880 --> 01:17:15,120
but I didn't know this from like a wild standpoint and all these things.

1131
01:17:15,120 --> 01:17:21,600
And so after he came back, I was thinking, who can we give this ocelot to?

1132
01:17:21,600 --> 01:17:24,680
You know, cause I, I didn't know anything about it.

1133
01:17:24,680 --> 01:17:29,880
A few years ago, I was going to kill myself because I was lost and now I'm in the jungle

1134
01:17:29,880 --> 01:17:35,360
and I'm finding myself in this predicament where I have this baby ocelot and I'm like,

1135
01:17:35,360 --> 01:17:37,160
what do I do with it?

1136
01:17:37,160 --> 01:17:38,480
I'm going to go home soon.

1137
01:17:38,480 --> 01:17:41,220
And I was like, why are you going to go home?

1138
01:17:41,220 --> 01:17:44,520
What do you possibly have in England, which is even cooler than this?

1139
01:17:44,520 --> 01:17:48,440
Like, and I'm not like saying it's cool as in like, it's a pet.

1140
01:17:48,440 --> 01:17:51,800
I fought to save this animal's life.

1141
01:17:51,800 --> 01:17:53,000
And now what am I going to do?

1142
01:17:53,000 --> 01:17:55,320
Is give it to someone that it might go to a zoo?

1143
01:17:55,320 --> 01:18:01,000
And I was like, no, like I have to see this through.

1144
01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:05,880
And so I was like, I'm going to message a few people, see if they have any kind of like

1145
01:18:05,880 --> 01:18:07,320
information and all this.

1146
01:18:07,320 --> 01:18:09,120
And I just was like, I'm doing this.

1147
01:18:09,120 --> 01:18:12,320
And I was like, I'm not going home.

1148
01:18:12,320 --> 01:18:13,320
I'm going to stay here.

1149
01:18:13,320 --> 01:18:18,960
And then me and Khan are just going to, we're just going to live our lives.

1150
01:18:18,960 --> 01:18:22,560
And that was the start of the Khan project.

1151
01:18:22,560 --> 01:18:27,760
Now, the goal was to get into a point, not where he was domesticated, but to actually

1152
01:18:27,760 --> 01:18:31,960
get him prepared to be a wild cat again.

1153
01:18:31,960 --> 01:18:36,600
Yeah, that's right.

1154
01:18:36,600 --> 01:18:42,240
The goal was for him to become so independent that he would be able to go off and fend for

1155
01:18:42,240 --> 01:18:43,520
himself in the wild.

1156
01:18:43,520 --> 01:18:44,800
He would be able to hunt for himself.

1157
01:18:44,800 --> 01:18:47,120
He'd be able to survive.

1158
01:18:47,120 --> 01:18:54,720
He would be scared enough of humans that he wouldn't come close to anyone other than myself.

1159
01:18:54,720 --> 01:19:01,520
And he would just be free where he belonged.

1160
01:19:01,520 --> 01:19:03,920
And that was it.

1161
01:19:03,920 --> 01:19:11,880
We wanted him to become just this wild cat.

1162
01:19:11,880 --> 01:19:17,400
And I did absolutely everything in my power to make sure that he became wild.

1163
01:19:17,400 --> 01:19:20,920
I became nocturnal to some point.

1164
01:19:20,920 --> 01:19:24,680
I lived alone for months and months.

1165
01:19:24,680 --> 01:19:32,600
I walked every single night, whether I was sick or whether I was injured or whatever.

1166
01:19:32,600 --> 01:19:34,760
I walked and I hunted.

1167
01:19:34,760 --> 01:19:40,120
I learned how to trap animals without using a weapon.

1168
01:19:40,120 --> 01:19:44,920
I had a little air rifle that I would shoot rats with if they were in my kitchen.

1169
01:19:44,920 --> 01:19:50,320
I made a slingshot so that I could slingshot birds out of the trees.

1170
01:19:50,320 --> 01:19:58,000
I was hunting for him and sharing everything with him and spending every hour of waking

1171
01:19:58,000 --> 01:20:06,160
day with him and teaching him what were the dangers of the forest and what were edible

1172
01:20:06,160 --> 01:20:07,160
and what was...

1173
01:20:07,160 --> 01:20:11,680
And in turn, he was teaching me so much.

1174
01:20:11,680 --> 01:20:18,560
I learned so much from this cat.

1175
01:20:18,560 --> 01:20:21,680
He taught me so much.

1176
01:20:21,680 --> 01:20:26,240
And it wasn't just teaching me how to love myself again or love anything again.

1177
01:20:26,240 --> 01:20:28,720
It was teaching me about the rainforest.

1178
01:20:28,720 --> 01:20:30,360
It was teaching me about sounds.

1179
01:20:30,360 --> 01:20:35,400
It was teaching me about direction, navigation.

1180
01:20:35,400 --> 01:20:45,800
He really put me on a path to success, obviously, until...

1181
01:20:45,800 --> 01:20:48,480
Well let's go there.

1182
01:20:48,480 --> 01:20:53,760
When I was watching it, and I'll preface this, I posted a video this morning that moved me

1183
01:20:53,760 --> 01:20:57,320
so much that I was in tears the whole fucking time.

1184
01:20:57,320 --> 01:21:01,160
I was trying to do the text that went with it, trying to put the subtitles on and make

1185
01:21:01,160 --> 01:21:02,920
sure that they lined up.

1186
01:21:02,920 --> 01:21:08,600
And it was a young man with Down syndrome going to his mother's grave site to tell her

1187
01:21:08,600 --> 01:21:09,600
that he just graduated.

1188
01:21:09,600 --> 01:21:12,360
And I'm actually welling up now just thinking about it.

1189
01:21:12,360 --> 01:21:14,200
It's beautiful, absolutely beautiful.

1190
01:21:14,200 --> 01:21:21,320
And then I watch your film and then I watch the bond that you have with Khan.

1191
01:21:21,320 --> 01:21:22,320
And it was beautiful.

1192
01:21:22,320 --> 01:21:26,120
I showed you my dog right before we hit record.

1193
01:21:26,120 --> 01:21:30,880
I had a German Shepherd prior to her and I have this little one now.

1194
01:21:30,880 --> 01:21:36,840
But when there's that bond between a human and an animal like that, whether it's a horse,

1195
01:21:36,840 --> 01:21:43,720
an ocelot, a dog, you can't even put it into words, but the film captured it so beautifully.

1196
01:21:43,720 --> 01:21:48,200
When you're both lying there on the forest floor and you send them off to go chase, I

1197
01:21:48,200 --> 01:21:51,360
forget what it was now, you see that.

1198
01:21:51,360 --> 01:21:55,500
So at that point, we realized just how beautiful a relationship that is.

1199
01:21:55,500 --> 01:21:58,880
So talk to me about what did happen next with Khan specifically.

1200
01:21:58,880 --> 01:22:06,800
Yeah, so I was fairly confident that he was getting to a point in his life where he was

1201
01:22:06,800 --> 01:22:11,640
going to be able to go off and start hunting and doing everything.

1202
01:22:11,640 --> 01:22:17,480
He was going off for hours and hours every single night and coming back with a full belly.

1203
01:22:17,480 --> 01:22:20,040
And I was watching him and helping him catch rodents.

1204
01:22:20,040 --> 01:22:26,080
And he was catching small caiman and I was teaching him all these things.

1205
01:22:26,080 --> 01:22:32,280
And we got to a point of where it was like, right, he's going to be a year old soon.

1206
01:22:32,280 --> 01:22:35,840
Like I'm really excited for the next four months because it means he's going to start

1207
01:22:35,840 --> 01:22:45,600
becoming this cat that I've worked so hard to get him to this point.

1208
01:22:45,600 --> 01:22:54,200
I've worked and I've exhausted myself and I've been in this country illegally because

1209
01:22:54,200 --> 01:23:04,320
I've missed my exit time and everything was dependent on Khan and he had to be successful.

1210
01:23:04,320 --> 01:23:09,880
Whether it was going to take another six months or another two years, I was going to ensure

1211
01:23:09,880 --> 01:23:12,640
that he was going to be a wild cat.

1212
01:23:12,640 --> 01:23:28,680
And one night we were just walking and someone had set up a, it was like a poachers track,

1213
01:23:28,680 --> 01:23:31,480
like a sawn off shotgun.

1214
01:23:31,480 --> 01:23:40,640
And he triggered it and just, he didn't die instantly, but it blew his right arm off and

1215
01:23:40,640 --> 01:23:48,440
I did everything I could to save his life.

1216
01:23:48,440 --> 01:24:08,200
And he just bled out and he wasn't able to survive.

1217
01:24:08,200 --> 01:24:17,520
He was killed by the greed of humanity.

1218
01:24:17,520 --> 01:24:21,520
You could just see the pain through the film and obviously we're seeing it again raw and

1219
01:24:21,520 --> 01:24:25,040
I'm sure that's never going to go away.

1220
01:24:25,040 --> 01:24:29,600
When we're on this subject for a second, talk to me about that through the Peruvians lens,

1221
01:24:29,600 --> 01:24:33,600
because I just watched a documentary on Brazil and some of the indigenous tribes that are

1222
01:24:33,600 --> 01:24:40,480
being in some cases murdered as they're logging and deforestation is happening.

1223
01:24:40,480 --> 01:24:45,640
What were you seeing around your area specifically?

1224
01:24:45,640 --> 01:24:50,160
A lot of deforestation, it's more selective logging.

1225
01:24:50,160 --> 01:24:59,440
People would go in and cut down huge, huge ironwood trees, which would be homes to hundreds

1226
01:24:59,440 --> 01:25:04,000
and hundreds of animals, whether it be from the smallest insect to one of the largest

1227
01:25:04,000 --> 01:25:13,600
birds of praise to ocelot kittens and just plants and fauna and flora.

1228
01:25:13,600 --> 01:25:16,200
They would go in and they would kill anything.

1229
01:25:16,200 --> 01:25:18,240
They'd kill monkeys to eat them.

1230
01:25:18,240 --> 01:25:20,200
They would kill snakes out of fear.

1231
01:25:20,200 --> 01:25:29,360
They would cut down these trees and cut them up and take them down river and sell them.

1232
01:25:29,360 --> 01:25:37,800
When they're doing their thing, they're setting up shotgun traps or they're going out on

1233
01:25:37,800 --> 01:25:47,440
the river and they're shooting different animals just to eat.

1234
01:25:47,440 --> 01:25:55,480
In hindsight, I feel sorry for them because their government and their lives are hard

1235
01:25:55,480 --> 01:26:00,640
because they are trying to feed their families.

1236
01:26:00,640 --> 01:26:04,400
They're trying to just put food on their plates and they're trying to provide for their families

1237
01:26:04,400 --> 01:26:11,960
and every tree that they cut down, they probably get like $100 and it's like six weeks work

1238
01:26:11,960 --> 01:26:15,400
that they'll go away for and then they'll come back and they might make like a few hundred

1239
01:26:15,400 --> 01:26:17,720
dollars in that time.

1240
01:26:17,720 --> 01:26:24,320
In Peruvian solace, that's nothing really.

1241
01:26:24,320 --> 01:26:40,080
They would just take over the forest and just cut down trees and kill animals and just try

1242
01:26:40,080 --> 01:26:43,240
and survive, I guess.

1243
01:26:43,240 --> 01:26:53,160
But obviously that meant killing innocent lives and that meant Khan as well.

1244
01:26:53,160 --> 01:26:57,320
Well, this is the other side of the story.

1245
01:26:57,320 --> 01:27:00,400
I've talked about the Somalian pirates a few times.

1246
01:27:00,400 --> 01:27:04,840
I don't have people that were in anti-piracy and all these kinds of things.

1247
01:27:04,840 --> 01:27:12,040
You look at the origin story, that's an overfishing of Somalian oceans basically that are then

1248
01:27:12,040 --> 01:27:16,420
causing the fishermen to have less and less to bring and there's poverty and starvation

1249
01:27:16,420 --> 01:27:21,500
and they turn to crime and you see that in a lot of these other areas.

1250
01:27:21,500 --> 01:27:25,880
A lot of times we're responsible, the UK, the US, Australia, the places that are receiving

1251
01:27:25,880 --> 01:27:28,880
the goods.

1252
01:27:28,880 --> 01:27:32,000
We're the customer of a lot of these things.

1253
01:27:32,000 --> 01:27:36,480
I think it's a conversation that we need to be made constantly aware of is our impact

1254
01:27:36,480 --> 01:27:38,480
in other countries.

1255
01:27:38,480 --> 01:27:46,160
Speaking of impact, I lost my older German shepherd just over a year ago now and it absolutely

1256
01:27:46,160 --> 01:27:48,000
fucking devastated me.

1257
01:27:48,000 --> 01:27:55,000
I've been a firefighter for 14 years and she was my Khan at that point.

1258
01:27:55,000 --> 01:27:57,920
Even though she got to like 10 and a half, it was still young.

1259
01:27:57,920 --> 01:28:04,520
She was very, very healthy and a shepherd can live up to 16, 17, 18 years old.

1260
01:28:04,520 --> 01:28:07,800
It knocked me sideways and I actually happened to have my younger one.

1261
01:28:07,800 --> 01:28:14,520
I overlapped deliberately but it was absolutely brutal.

1262
01:28:14,520 --> 01:28:20,200
You pour your heart and soul into this beautiful cat, all of a sudden it's taken literally

1263
01:28:20,200 --> 01:28:22,520
the squeeze of a trigger.

1264
01:28:22,520 --> 01:28:25,080
What impact did that have on your mental health again?

1265
01:28:25,080 --> 01:28:29,880
Now you are a few steps back all over again.

1266
01:28:29,880 --> 01:28:34,320
With Khan, I felt like I had won mental health.

1267
01:28:34,320 --> 01:28:39,400
I was with him and even though I was struggling still, I was with him and everything was great.

1268
01:28:39,400 --> 01:28:44,240
As soon as his heart stopped, so did mine.

1269
01:28:44,240 --> 01:28:55,160
I don't really like to make it sound similar to pets and German shepherds because Khan

1270
01:28:55,160 --> 01:28:56,560
wasn't a pet.

1271
01:28:56,560 --> 01:29:04,280
He was this project which was meant to be going off into the wild and going on to breed

1272
01:29:04,280 --> 01:29:13,360
and have offspring and to go back into the ecosystem where he truly belonged.

1273
01:29:13,360 --> 01:29:20,360
There's something I just cared about that so much.

1274
01:29:20,360 --> 01:29:21,600
I have two dogs here.

1275
01:29:21,600 --> 01:29:25,100
I have a dog from Peru called Mika.

1276
01:29:25,100 --> 01:29:30,920
My wife actually rescued her and I have a rescue from California.

1277
01:29:30,920 --> 01:29:35,080
She's a Doberman, Olive.

1278
01:29:35,080 --> 01:29:39,680
I love them to pieces but I definitely didn't.

1279
01:29:39,680 --> 01:29:42,920
I don't love them as much as I love Khan and Keanu.

1280
01:29:42,920 --> 01:29:49,680
It's a different love because this love here that I have is a partner.

1281
01:29:49,680 --> 01:29:55,960
They're going to be with me until they die or until I die, whoever goes first.

1282
01:29:55,960 --> 01:30:01,440
They're going to be there and I'm going to love them and support them and feed them and

1283
01:30:01,440 --> 01:30:05,680
play with them and they're going to give me so much joy back.

1284
01:30:05,680 --> 01:30:12,320
Whereas Khan and Keanu were wild animals that had been put in a really horrible predicament

1285
01:30:12,320 --> 01:30:18,560
and it was my job to make them as wild as possible and to make them as ferocious as

1286
01:30:18,560 --> 01:30:24,360
they possibly could so that they could go off and so that I could leave them and let

1287
01:30:24,360 --> 01:30:31,760
them go so that they can go on to do exactly what they were put on this planet to do.

1288
01:30:31,760 --> 01:30:33,600
That love for them is different.

1289
01:30:33,600 --> 01:30:40,600
Even though I love my dogs to pieces, I love them in a way which is so completely, is so

1290
01:30:40,600 --> 01:30:46,440
much more complex and hard.

1291
01:30:46,440 --> 01:30:52,120
But I started cutting myself deeply.

1292
01:30:52,120 --> 01:30:57,560
I started thinking about suicide every single day.

1293
01:30:57,560 --> 01:31:04,120
I went to Australia and I was handling some of the world's most venomous snakes and I

1294
01:31:04,120 --> 01:31:08,160
didn't give a crap because I was like, if I get bit, I'll get bit, whatever.

1295
01:31:08,160 --> 01:31:09,160
I'll die.

1296
01:31:09,160 --> 01:31:10,880
Thank God.

1297
01:31:10,880 --> 01:31:14,520
You know, do a Steve Irwin and kind of go out doing something you're passionate about.

1298
01:31:14,520 --> 01:31:18,200
But I was not well.

1299
01:31:18,200 --> 01:31:26,600
I thought that I had kind of like overcome some stuff but I had been put back many, many,

1300
01:31:26,600 --> 01:31:30,760
many steps in my progressive kind of path.

1301
01:31:30,760 --> 01:31:34,000
And yeah, I just did not do.

1302
01:31:34,000 --> 01:31:39,040
But something deep down inside me was telling me to go back to the jungle.

1303
01:31:39,040 --> 01:31:42,360
I had not finished what I needed to do there yet.

1304
01:31:42,360 --> 01:31:43,640
And I didn't know why.

1305
01:31:43,640 --> 01:31:49,000
But I was in Australia and I had a year visa to work there and to do all these things.

1306
01:31:49,000 --> 01:31:54,160
So I worked there but I only spent six months there because I was like, I can't do it.

1307
01:31:54,160 --> 01:31:58,880
My mom was sick at the time so I went home to see her for a few days and then I flew

1308
01:31:58,880 --> 01:32:01,440
straight back to the jungle.

1309
01:32:01,440 --> 01:32:06,280
I didn't know I had no plan.

1310
01:32:06,280 --> 01:32:11,200
I was terrified to go back because I was just so distraught and I didn't know what I was

1311
01:32:11,200 --> 01:32:16,320
going to do in the same area that Khan had been killed.

1312
01:32:16,320 --> 01:32:17,560
I was angry.

1313
01:32:17,560 --> 01:32:19,600
I was hateful.

1314
01:32:19,600 --> 01:32:20,960
I was sick.

1315
01:32:20,960 --> 01:32:25,360
I didn't give a crap about anyone else apart from me.

1316
01:32:25,360 --> 01:32:32,520
That goes for, you know, the native communities and the local people and the gringos in the

1317
01:32:32,520 --> 01:32:33,520
area.

1318
01:32:33,520 --> 01:32:37,080
Like, I didn't care what anyone thought about me.

1319
01:32:37,080 --> 01:32:38,080
I was just in the jungle.

1320
01:32:38,080 --> 01:32:44,240
And I would go off for days and days and days and just spend time in the jungle fishing,

1321
01:32:44,240 --> 01:32:49,440
catching fish, just like sitting around a fire, just like contemplating what I was doing.

1322
01:32:49,440 --> 01:32:51,400
Why did your stomach tell you to come here?

1323
01:32:51,400 --> 01:32:54,760
And I've always been a follower of my gut.

1324
01:32:54,760 --> 01:32:56,240
Why did it tell you to come back here?

1325
01:32:56,240 --> 01:32:57,240
Why?

1326
01:32:57,240 --> 01:33:00,240
Like, why, why, why?

1327
01:33:00,240 --> 01:33:07,400
And I bump into Trevor, who is one of the directors on Wildcat.

1328
01:33:07,400 --> 01:33:13,880
And he said, Oh, I heard from, you know, Paul Rosalie that you've got a pretty cool story.

1329
01:33:13,880 --> 01:33:17,680
And I was like, who are you?

1330
01:33:17,680 --> 01:33:22,960
You know, like, he met me and I was like in my jacket because it was cold as a thing called

1331
01:33:22,960 --> 01:33:24,680
free, oh, hey, where cold weather comes in.

1332
01:33:24,680 --> 01:33:26,680
I was like, who are you?

1333
01:33:26,680 --> 01:33:31,960
And he follows me on Instagram and I look on now and he's got like 400,000 followers.

1334
01:33:31,960 --> 01:33:33,960
And I'm like, who the hell is this dude?

1335
01:33:33,960 --> 01:33:36,360
Like, I, I don't care about him.

1336
01:33:36,360 --> 01:33:37,360
Like whatever.

1337
01:33:37,360 --> 01:33:40,080
He goes, I've heard some stuff.

1338
01:33:40,080 --> 01:33:44,040
Can I please see some footage if you've got any?

1339
01:33:44,040 --> 01:33:45,040
So I said, yeah, whatever.

1340
01:33:45,040 --> 01:33:46,480
Like, what can it do to her?

1341
01:33:46,480 --> 01:33:50,720
And he said, I want to make a documentary in memory of Khan.

1342
01:33:50,720 --> 01:33:52,960
Would you be open to that?

1343
01:33:52,960 --> 01:33:56,840
And I was like, yeah, I guess we could do something along the lines, like whatever.

1344
01:33:56,840 --> 01:34:01,720
And so like I showed him some stuff and he was like, crap, man, like this is some powerful

1345
01:34:01,720 --> 01:34:02,720
footage.

1346
01:34:02,720 --> 01:34:06,120
Um, we've got to try and figure it out.

1347
01:34:06,120 --> 01:34:08,920
And so we were kind of in talks and we were going to talk about doing it.

1348
01:34:08,920 --> 01:34:13,980
And then I was in the jungle again and I would, I just got on this huge walk and I think I'd

1349
01:34:13,980 --> 01:34:18,520
seen like three or four different snakes and I'd seen some really cool stuff.

1350
01:34:18,520 --> 01:34:24,080
Um, I come back and there was like, there's another Ocelot in the local community.

1351
01:34:24,080 --> 01:34:29,680
And I just remember just breaking down and crying and just being like, this could be

1352
01:34:29,680 --> 01:34:41,000
my opportunity to make sure Khan's life wasn't for nothing, you know, like, and so I, I was

1353
01:34:41,000 --> 01:34:48,440
sick, you know, like mentally, physically, like I put everything that I possibly could

1354
01:34:48,440 --> 01:34:57,280
into Keanu because I knew that I was doing what I did with Khan and it felt weird.

1355
01:34:57,280 --> 01:35:03,520
It felt like Khan was my teacher and Khan's life was like this lesson to then teach Keanu

1356
01:35:03,520 --> 01:35:04,920
what I had already learned.

1357
01:35:04,920 --> 01:35:09,360
And I had, I didn't have to like go through the basics step by step manual.

1358
01:35:09,360 --> 01:35:11,920
Like I went and I dove into it.

1359
01:35:11,920 --> 01:35:13,880
I did anti-parasitic medicine.

1360
01:35:13,880 --> 01:35:14,880
I was feeding him.

1361
01:35:14,880 --> 01:35:15,880
We were walking.

1362
01:35:15,880 --> 01:35:17,520
We were, we were hunting.

1363
01:35:17,520 --> 01:35:23,560
We were like going out for hours and hours and hours and hours and, and, and just beating

1364
01:35:23,560 --> 01:35:27,840
the crap out of the forest, you know, just like any mouse we saw, we would tag team it.

1365
01:35:27,840 --> 01:35:30,040
I would even try and jump on it or smack him.

1366
01:35:30,040 --> 01:35:31,160
I'm a shit alien.

1367
01:35:31,160 --> 01:35:35,560
He would go around one side of the log and I would run the other side and I would scare

1368
01:35:35,560 --> 01:35:38,840
it into his paws and he would grab it and just rip its head off.

1369
01:35:38,840 --> 01:35:43,600
And we were just ripping the forest up.

1370
01:35:43,600 --> 01:35:47,480
And it got to a point of where, you know, he was so healthy and it was coming up to

1371
01:35:47,480 --> 01:35:50,440
the point of where he was almost going to be a year.

1372
01:35:50,440 --> 01:35:54,640
And I was getting petrified that he wasn't going to live, you know, like just reliving

1373
01:35:54,640 --> 01:35:59,440
that memory over and over and over and over and over again, just in my head, like, what

1374
01:35:59,440 --> 01:36:00,440
about if he doesn't make it?

1375
01:36:00,440 --> 01:36:01,440
What about if he's not successful?

1376
01:36:01,440 --> 01:36:09,240
Like, this is all about Keanu, but ultimately I want Khan to be present in this and I don't

1377
01:36:09,240 --> 01:36:10,240
know how.

1378
01:36:10,240 --> 01:36:18,600
But yeah, and then I just, I just spent the next few months just filming absolutely everything

1379
01:36:18,600 --> 01:36:23,620
I could, making sure that he was as healthy as possible, making sure that he was fearful

1380
01:36:23,620 --> 01:36:29,120
of people, making sure that he was, you know, not super, super like injured after he'd come

1381
01:36:29,120 --> 01:36:31,520
back from fights with different cats.

1382
01:36:31,520 --> 01:36:35,280
And, oh man, like I, I went full tilt.

1383
01:36:35,280 --> 01:36:38,480
I was feral at the time.

1384
01:36:38,480 --> 01:36:43,760
My wife's friends call me feral because when I came back from the jungle after doing the

1385
01:36:43,760 --> 01:36:51,740
Keanu project, I was just like stick thin, just completely like deteriorated.

1386
01:36:51,740 --> 01:36:57,440
My hair was just like an absolute mess and you can kind of see it in the film, you know,

1387
01:36:57,440 --> 01:37:01,440
and I'm like leaving and I'm just like, I just don't look good.

1388
01:37:01,440 --> 01:37:04,000
Like I look like I'm physically exhausted.

1389
01:37:04,000 --> 01:37:16,880
I spent 674 days working with Keanu and out of them days I was illegal in Peru for 510

1390
01:37:16,880 --> 01:37:25,600
days and I, in that 674 days I left to go to the city 16 times.

1391
01:37:25,600 --> 01:37:30,320
That's days, 16 days out of 674 days.

1392
01:37:30,320 --> 01:37:36,000
I spent, I spent a long time in the forest.

1393
01:37:36,000 --> 01:37:37,520
I didn't need a watch anymore.

1394
01:37:37,520 --> 01:37:42,400
I knew the timings to a, to a five minute interval.

1395
01:37:42,400 --> 01:37:50,200
I knew it from the sounds of the birds, from the, from the sun in the sky, from everything.

1396
01:37:50,200 --> 01:37:54,920
I knew if there was an animal in the area because the monkeys would make a specific

1397
01:37:54,920 --> 01:37:58,800
sound and they wouldn't make the sound that they would make when they saw me or they saw

1398
01:37:58,800 --> 01:38:02,280
Keanu or they saw us together, it would be a different sound.

1399
01:38:02,280 --> 01:38:06,600
So I knew that there was something over there and we would just like, I didn't use deodorant

1400
01:38:06,600 --> 01:38:09,080
for, for years.

1401
01:38:09,080 --> 01:38:13,440
I didn't use shower gels or anything like that.

1402
01:38:13,440 --> 01:38:19,680
I occasionally use some shampoo and I occasionally just use some soap, but usually it was just

1403
01:38:19,680 --> 01:38:24,240
washing myself with water, eating what I could, getting back out, filming, doing absolutely

1404
01:38:24,240 --> 01:38:28,640
everything because I needed.

1405
01:38:28,640 --> 01:38:31,760
I didn't want this to just be a success.

1406
01:38:31,760 --> 01:38:33,840
I needed this to be a success.

1407
01:38:33,840 --> 01:38:35,320
This was my redemption.

1408
01:38:35,320 --> 01:38:38,760
This was absolutely everything.

1409
01:38:38,760 --> 01:38:42,480
And I, I did everything I possibly could.

1410
01:38:42,480 --> 01:38:43,880
That was it.

1411
01:38:43,880 --> 01:38:49,920
And when I was able to finally let him go, it was one of the absolute hardest things

1412
01:38:49,920 --> 01:38:54,480
I've ever done in my life.

1413
01:38:54,480 --> 01:39:02,240
So my, my son is 16 at the moment and he basically has about 18 months till he graduates high

1414
01:39:02,240 --> 01:39:06,600
school and is probably going to go off to some sort of college somewhere.

1415
01:39:06,600 --> 01:39:11,680
And so I'm kind of in an adult world there now, like my, my oldest has already gone.

1416
01:39:11,680 --> 01:39:15,440
My youngest is going to be gone probably in this time period.

1417
01:39:15,440 --> 01:39:20,400
And you've poured everything into a child now for, in his case, you know, 16 and a half

1418
01:39:20,400 --> 01:39:22,320
years, like everything.

1419
01:39:22,320 --> 01:39:25,400
If you're trying to, you know, parent correctly.

1420
01:39:25,400 --> 01:39:29,720
And there is that there's on the one hand, like, I hope I prepared them properly.

1421
01:39:29,720 --> 01:39:30,720
I'm excited for them.

1422
01:39:30,720 --> 01:39:32,200
They're going to go out into the wide world.

1423
01:39:32,200 --> 01:39:36,600
But on the other hand is that fear and what they did for you, you're going to be losing

1424
01:39:36,600 --> 01:39:41,240
that thing that, that, you know, reciprocated unconditional love that you get from a child

1425
01:39:41,240 --> 01:39:44,560
most of the time.

1426
01:39:44,560 --> 01:39:46,280
So talk to me about that.

1427
01:39:46,280 --> 01:39:49,340
How hard was it to finally let go?

1428
01:39:49,340 --> 01:39:53,560
And then again, what did the following weeks and months look like after, you know, it was

1429
01:39:53,560 --> 01:39:59,040
a mission success, but you'd lost this beautiful creature, not lost, but you, you weren't

1430
01:39:59,040 --> 01:40:03,560
present in this beautiful creature's life anymore because you had succeeded.

1431
01:40:03,560 --> 01:40:05,240
Yeah.

1432
01:40:05,240 --> 01:40:11,960
So I knew that in the next following weeks, I was going to have to leave to go home.

1433
01:40:11,960 --> 01:40:20,200
Like there was only one way that I could do it and it was, you know, just taking it day

1434
01:40:20,200 --> 01:40:27,600
by day and then just having to just drop everything and leave because mentally I wasn't doing

1435
01:40:27,600 --> 01:40:28,600
very well.

1436
01:40:28,600 --> 01:40:36,160
Um, even though I was in this most beautiful place, like I, I was, I hadn't seen my family

1437
01:40:36,160 --> 01:40:40,760
well, my family had come out to see me and you see that in the documentary, but I hadn't

1438
01:40:40,760 --> 01:40:42,160
seen my family properly.

1439
01:40:42,160 --> 01:40:46,520
I hadn't been home prop, you know, in a long time, I hadn't seen my friends in forever.

1440
01:40:46,520 --> 01:40:48,200
How long?

1441
01:40:48,200 --> 01:40:56,600
And uh, I knew that like for my state of mind, I had to kind of go home.

1442
01:40:56,600 --> 01:41:01,480
And Keanu at this point was going off for five days and coming back and a little bit

1443
01:41:01,480 --> 01:41:06,920
kind of like beaten and battered and weathered, but it's the jungle he's going to be.

1444
01:41:06,920 --> 01:41:11,200
And then we'd go out and we'd, you know, and he'd catch like big birds and big rodents

1445
01:41:11,200 --> 01:41:12,200
and he'd eat them.

1446
01:41:12,200 --> 01:41:17,480
And then I would walk off into the forest and he'd go off and then I would come home

1447
01:41:17,480 --> 01:41:23,960
and uh, when I say home, I mean to the platform and uh, he would then return maybe four or

1448
01:41:23,960 --> 01:41:25,680
five, six, seven days later.

1449
01:41:25,680 --> 01:41:31,160
And at this point I'm just sitting there and kind of, you know, like doing the same thing

1450
01:41:31,160 --> 01:41:32,160
that I did after Afghanistan.

1451
01:41:32,160 --> 01:41:37,000
I come back and I'm just kind of sitting there waiting, waiting, waiting every sound, oh,

1452
01:41:37,000 --> 01:41:38,000
is that Keanu?

1453
01:41:38,000 --> 01:41:43,360
No, it's not, you know, it's just a armadillo or whatever.

1454
01:41:43,360 --> 01:41:48,720
And so I knew from my sanity that he was going off and he was doing well and he was successful

1455
01:41:48,720 --> 01:41:49,720
in my head.

1456
01:41:49,720 --> 01:41:50,720
He was already successful.

1457
01:41:50,720 --> 01:41:56,520
I just had to then be like, when is the correct time to say goodbye?

1458
01:41:56,520 --> 01:41:58,640
Because I need to, I need to for him.

1459
01:41:58,640 --> 01:42:04,440
I need to for me and I need to just be like, this project is done.

1460
01:42:04,440 --> 01:42:06,240
He's a success.

1461
01:42:06,240 --> 01:42:16,080
And so I, you know, like booked a ticket and um, and uh, was just ready to kind of leave,

1462
01:42:16,080 --> 01:42:22,040
but at the same time felt awful leaving him because what if, what if he needed me?

1463
01:42:22,040 --> 01:42:23,120
What if he got sick?

1464
01:42:23,120 --> 01:42:25,600
What if, you know, any of these things?

1465
01:42:25,600 --> 01:42:33,120
And so, uh, I, uh, I was just beating myself up and torturing myself because I was like,

1466
01:42:33,120 --> 01:42:38,440
you know, he, he isn't, you know, like your kids hasn't got a phone and isn't able to

1467
01:42:38,440 --> 01:42:40,040
just be contacted.

1468
01:42:40,040 --> 01:42:45,800
Like when I leave him, I'm never going to see him again unless he's super, super sick

1469
01:42:45,800 --> 01:42:49,720
and I get a message from Christian or, you know, someone and they're like, I think you

1470
01:42:49,720 --> 01:42:50,720
need to come back.

1471
01:42:50,720 --> 01:42:55,200
And I was going to just, you know, I had money in my bank set aside in case when I went home

1472
01:42:55,200 --> 01:42:57,600
I need is to come back and I'd fly immediately.

1473
01:42:57,600 --> 01:43:00,280
Like, it doesn't matter how much it's going to cost me.

1474
01:43:00,280 --> 01:43:01,280
I'm getting back.

1475
01:43:01,280 --> 01:43:06,040
But I knew that this was probably going to be the last time I was ever going to see him.

1476
01:43:06,040 --> 01:43:15,160
And so letting go was an absolutely awful feeling and, um, coming home, I, uh, in the

1477
01:43:15,160 --> 01:43:17,520
documentary you see that I surprised my family.

1478
01:43:17,520 --> 01:43:24,120
They had no idea I was coming and, uh, it was this just really beautiful moment, you

1479
01:43:24,120 --> 01:43:28,560
know, like I, I got to see my family and I surprised them.

1480
01:43:28,560 --> 01:43:33,160
And like, I was just like, thank God, like I've done something and I should be proud

1481
01:43:33,160 --> 01:43:34,560
of the thing that I've done.

1482
01:43:34,560 --> 01:43:42,040
And but new years, well, Christmas came around and new years came around and I just was struggling

1483
01:43:42,040 --> 01:43:44,200
to fit back in.

1484
01:43:44,200 --> 01:43:51,320
It was this like horrendous feeling of like, I'm back where I belong, you know, at home,

1485
01:43:51,320 --> 01:43:57,920
but where I belonged was in the forest and, uh, and I couldn't go back because I didn't

1486
01:43:57,920 --> 01:44:00,960
want to get like trapped into that kind of like situation.

1487
01:44:00,960 --> 01:44:06,480
I was trapped there before with, with Keanu and, you know, I didn't need to be there and

1488
01:44:06,480 --> 01:44:09,640
I definitely didn't want to be there because of the people.

1489
01:44:09,640 --> 01:44:14,960
And, um, and so I was like, right, you know, like, what am I going to do?

1490
01:44:14,960 --> 01:44:20,400
And I was just like, I was talking to, uh, Lexi at the time who is now my wife and she

1491
01:44:20,400 --> 01:44:30,480
was helping me greatly through this process of transitioning from feral as hell to society.

1492
01:44:30,480 --> 01:44:36,320
And then the pandemic, and then the pandemic happened and I was stuck in England for seven

1493
01:44:36,320 --> 01:44:46,200
months and my, my mental health was just absolutely, it was just like, I just hate, I hated that.

1494
01:44:46,200 --> 01:44:52,520
And as soon as I could, I found a loophole where I could fly to Ecuador for one week

1495
01:44:52,520 --> 01:44:54,920
and I flew to Ecuador and just stayed there for six months.

1496
01:44:54,920 --> 01:44:56,280
And I just lived in the forest.

1497
01:44:56,280 --> 01:44:58,920
I discovered a new species of frog.

1498
01:44:58,920 --> 01:45:02,240
I was like helping a team called tropical herping.

1499
01:45:02,240 --> 01:45:07,720
Uh, some of my really good friends with like research and I was taking cool photographs

1500
01:45:07,720 --> 01:45:13,960
of cool animals and, um, you know, seeing some really diverse parts and, and I fell

1501
01:45:13,960 --> 01:45:21,000
in love with Ecuador and, uh, and so me and my wife have now started a nonprofit called

1502
01:45:21,000 --> 01:45:28,680
Emerald Arch and, um, we are going to be in the next, you know, year or so buying land

1503
01:45:28,680 --> 01:45:30,160
in the Ecuadorian Amazon.

1504
01:45:30,160 --> 01:45:35,240
Uh, currently it's kind of a dangerous place to be kind of low looking, but ultimately

1505
01:45:35,240 --> 01:45:43,480
anywhere in the world with people is the dangerous place in the world, you know, and, um, and

1506
01:45:43,480 --> 01:45:49,200
with Emerald Arch, we want to protect land and we want to do projects similar to Karnakeanu

1507
01:45:49,200 --> 01:45:54,000
and we want to reintroduce potentially and, you know, if they need it, fingers crossed,

1508
01:45:54,000 --> 01:45:59,000
they don't need it, but rehabilitate and we want to work with, you know, local communities

1509
01:45:59,000 --> 01:46:05,240
and we want to help spay and neuter, you know, domesticated dogs and cats in the area to

1510
01:46:05,240 --> 01:46:10,440
stop issues with, you know, interfering with jungle ecosystems.

1511
01:46:10,440 --> 01:46:18,000
But the main goal and mission for Emerald Arch is to take veterans struggling with PTSD

1512
01:46:18,000 --> 01:46:25,680
to the jungle because, um, if you're struggling with suicidal ideation and you're thinking

1513
01:46:25,680 --> 01:46:34,040
about ending your life and self-harming as a constant and, um, what you saw on tour or,

1514
01:46:34,040 --> 01:46:41,920
or just being kind of in a military kind of like career, if you go to the jungle, I know,

1515
01:46:41,920 --> 01:46:49,840
I know that like I'm one person in this whole world, but I know that nature helps heal and

1516
01:46:49,840 --> 01:46:54,920
I know that it helped me from killing myself.

1517
01:46:54,920 --> 01:47:01,320
So why can't I take people who also have a love for nature or who are also struggling

1518
01:47:01,320 --> 01:47:07,200
to the jungle so that then they can kind of walk like a few steps in my shoes?

1519
01:47:07,200 --> 01:47:13,600
And I think that, you know, it's going to be a long road to get everything up and running,

1520
01:47:13,600 --> 01:47:18,480
but I think once we do and we have like a few veteran retreats where people can come

1521
01:47:18,480 --> 01:47:24,440
for a month and they can, you know, no phones, no laptops, no nothing.

1522
01:47:24,440 --> 01:47:29,120
You're in the jungle, you go on hikes, you're doing scientific research, you can go fishing,

1523
01:47:29,120 --> 01:47:36,880
you can do whatever the hell you want to do under supervision and with psychiatrists and,

1524
01:47:36,880 --> 01:47:40,400
you know, because I went there just to do it.

1525
01:47:40,400 --> 01:47:41,720
I didn't have no support.

1526
01:47:41,720 --> 01:47:46,880
I want people to have that support where they can go, Harry, I'm not feeling great today.

1527
01:47:46,880 --> 01:47:52,600
Do you mind if I take a day off from doing all these things?

1528
01:47:52,600 --> 01:47:57,000
And in that, you know, ultimately it's like, well, how are you feeling?

1529
01:47:57,000 --> 01:48:00,080
Can we speak to someone like, are you feeling suicidal?

1530
01:48:00,080 --> 01:48:01,280
Are you feeling sad?

1531
01:48:01,280 --> 01:48:03,120
Are you just missing home?

1532
01:48:03,120 --> 01:48:05,080
Are you missing your family?

1533
01:48:05,080 --> 01:48:06,080
Like what is it?

1534
01:48:06,080 --> 01:48:11,600
And just take them, every person step by step as an individual, how they're feeling and

1535
01:48:11,600 --> 01:48:18,200
just try and put them on a path to success in their own life.

1536
01:48:18,200 --> 01:48:20,280
Well firstly, I think that's incredible.

1537
01:48:20,280 --> 01:48:24,680
The one question that I have when I was watching the documentary, you know, especially towards

1538
01:48:24,680 --> 01:48:28,120
the end, and you mentioned about having counseling, which is beautiful.

1539
01:48:28,120 --> 01:48:35,800
I mean, as far as the understanding of, you know, community, of purpose, of time in nature,

1540
01:48:35,800 --> 01:48:36,920
those are so obvious.

1541
01:48:36,920 --> 01:48:41,320
And when we reflect now on what a lot of the governments told people to do during the pandemic,

1542
01:48:41,320 --> 01:48:44,400
it was the polar opposite of what actually makes people heal.

1543
01:48:44,400 --> 01:48:47,360
So I hope we will learn that lesson next time.

1544
01:48:47,360 --> 01:48:52,320
But when we're talking about South America, an incredible healing modality that seems

1545
01:48:52,320 --> 01:48:57,440
to have resurfaced from ancient wisdom to current first responders and military members

1546
01:48:57,440 --> 01:49:00,280
are the psychedelics, the plant medicines out there.

1547
01:49:00,280 --> 01:49:03,400
Were you ever exposed to them in your journeys?

1548
01:49:03,400 --> 01:49:08,480
Yeah, I have done ayahuasca.

1549
01:49:08,480 --> 01:49:15,640
And so I was doing the Keonig project and I heard that there was like a group of people

1550
01:49:15,640 --> 01:49:18,720
down river.

1551
01:49:18,720 --> 01:49:26,400
And so I went down and just happened to be the night that they were doing ayahuasca.

1552
01:49:26,400 --> 01:49:27,760
And they said, do you want to join?

1553
01:49:27,760 --> 01:49:30,880
And I was like, yeah, like, I guess so.

1554
01:49:30,880 --> 01:49:36,600
I had just gone through like a pretty traumatic experience the night before where I was actually

1555
01:49:36,600 --> 01:49:38,200
reintroducing a monkey.

1556
01:49:38,200 --> 01:49:45,200
It was a howler monkey and his mom had been shot for me and he had been shot in the shoulder

1557
01:49:45,200 --> 01:49:47,480
through her.

1558
01:49:47,480 --> 01:49:52,360
And so I was reintroducing this monkey and we were like climbing in the trees together.

1559
01:49:52,360 --> 01:49:56,120
And I came down and I said, Max, you've got to come down.

1560
01:49:56,120 --> 01:50:03,080
Like it's dangerous up there without like a group because monkeys are group animals.

1561
01:50:03,080 --> 01:50:07,120
And so it came down, I put him away and then like he was crying and crying.

1562
01:50:07,120 --> 01:50:08,120
He wanted to come out again.

1563
01:50:08,120 --> 01:50:11,200
But obviously I was trying to do the Keonig project as well as this.

1564
01:50:11,200 --> 01:50:16,760
So I went out with Keonig and I come back and I let him out and he goes up in this tree

1565
01:50:16,760 --> 01:50:18,720
and he's not coming down.

1566
01:50:18,720 --> 01:50:24,360
I go, right, okay, I'll go get a banana that I've been growing.

1567
01:50:24,360 --> 01:50:28,480
And so I went and got a banana and I went in and I just was, I think I was making a

1568
01:50:28,480 --> 01:50:36,000
cup of tea, you know, and I just see this shadow just come over and this Harpy eagle,

1569
01:50:36,000 --> 01:50:44,200
largest eagle in the jungle had just taken him from this tree.

1570
01:50:44,200 --> 01:50:49,760
And he was screaming and screaming and I climbed this tree and I'm shaking and I'm like three

1571
01:50:49,760 --> 01:50:51,400
meters away from this Harpy eagle.

1572
01:50:51,400 --> 01:50:57,360
And I'm not joking you, the talons, these eagles take sloths out of trees.

1573
01:50:57,360 --> 01:51:00,000
Their talons can go all the way around us.

1574
01:51:00,000 --> 01:51:05,080
Like these talons are like inches long.

1575
01:51:05,080 --> 01:51:11,480
And he's just like looking at me and he's just so angry and Max is like falling down.

1576
01:51:11,480 --> 01:51:23,200
I'm trying to catch Max and I get him to the ground and yeah, just he ripped his spine.

1577
01:51:23,200 --> 01:51:25,200
So he was paralyzed.

1578
01:51:25,200 --> 01:51:32,360
The puncture wound went through his lungs and it's just nature, you know, like that's

1579
01:51:32,360 --> 01:51:34,560
what it is.

1580
01:51:34,560 --> 01:51:36,120
He died in a natural way.

1581
01:51:36,120 --> 01:51:41,960
And so, you know, I just, even though I get upset about thinking about it, like it was

1582
01:51:41,960 --> 01:51:45,680
a natural way that he died.

1583
01:51:45,680 --> 01:51:51,160
I you know, obviously in their moments, I'm trying my best to do something.

1584
01:51:51,160 --> 01:51:53,440
I'm not a primate by any means.

1585
01:51:53,440 --> 01:51:55,560
I don't climb trees perfectly.

1586
01:51:55,560 --> 01:51:59,480
Like I have some pretty fucked up toes, but it doesn't mean that, you know, I can just

1587
01:51:59,480 --> 01:52:04,280
like walk up a tree and on a branch, you know, 30 feet up.

1588
01:52:04,280 --> 01:52:08,840
And I felt so like, ah, this is, this is my fault.

1589
01:52:08,840 --> 01:52:10,240
You know, like I felt horrible.

1590
01:52:10,240 --> 01:52:13,960
And so when I went down, they said, do you want to do ayahuasca?

1591
01:52:13,960 --> 01:52:19,920
I said, you know what, like whatever, give me whatever, just to forget about this.

1592
01:52:19,920 --> 01:52:24,760
And I, oh man, it was crazy trip.

1593
01:52:24,760 --> 01:52:27,960
Like I have done mushrooms before and I've smoked weed before.

1594
01:52:27,960 --> 01:52:34,240
And, you know, I've done a few other drugs in my life, but this was like, I drank one

1595
01:52:34,240 --> 01:52:39,000
of the cups and it tastes like, it tastes like you're drinking like a thicker Marmite,

1596
01:52:39,000 --> 01:52:40,640
like a thinner Marmite.

1597
01:52:40,640 --> 01:52:41,640
Sorry.

1598
01:52:41,640 --> 01:52:44,480
Like it's kind of like a liquidy Marmite, a veggie Marmite type thing.

1599
01:52:44,480 --> 01:52:45,480
Horrible.

1600
01:52:45,480 --> 01:52:46,480
It tastes like crap.

1601
01:52:46,480 --> 01:52:52,040
And I drank one cup and I'm like feeling my stomach going and I'm like, okay, you know,

1602
01:52:52,040 --> 01:52:53,040
something's happening.

1603
01:52:53,040 --> 01:52:57,440
And the shaman comes over and is talking to me and says, because apparently they'd heard

1604
01:52:57,440 --> 01:53:00,280
about my story.

1605
01:53:00,280 --> 01:53:06,120
Maybe because you've been in the jungle a long time, one cup isn't enough for you.

1606
01:53:06,120 --> 01:53:11,120
Maybe you should take two because you're already part of the natural ecosystem.

1607
01:53:11,120 --> 01:53:12,680
Like you have been here for so long.

1608
01:53:12,680 --> 01:53:18,280
Maybe you should do two cups because clearly your body has just absorbed this and you're

1609
01:53:18,280 --> 01:53:22,800
not going to get high and you're not going to have this healing experience.

1610
01:53:22,800 --> 01:53:29,000
So I downed this second cup and I was sitting there and my stomach was kind of gargling

1611
01:53:29,000 --> 01:53:31,360
and I was like, right, I'm going to vomit.

1612
01:53:31,360 --> 01:53:35,760
Like this, this purge is about to happen.

1613
01:53:35,760 --> 01:53:40,200
And so I stood up and I went to go get some water and everything felt like it was rushing

1614
01:53:40,200 --> 01:53:41,200
by me.

1615
01:53:41,200 --> 01:53:46,800
And I went outside and I got onto my knees and I put my knuckles on the ground and I

1616
01:53:46,800 --> 01:53:49,200
just project I'll vomit it.

1617
01:53:49,200 --> 01:53:55,760
Like all of this anger, hate, it just was expelled out of my body.

1618
01:53:55,760 --> 01:54:01,160
And my knuckles are on the ground and I'm like eyes closed and I opened my eyes and

1619
01:54:01,160 --> 01:54:06,120
I'm like, where are my fingers?

1620
01:54:06,120 --> 01:54:08,120
I thought my fingers are completely gone.

1621
01:54:08,120 --> 01:54:12,800
And I was like, oh no, because one of the biggest fears about being in Afghanistan was

1622
01:54:12,800 --> 01:54:15,800
that I was going to lose a limb.

1623
01:54:15,800 --> 01:54:20,080
So I'm petrified that my fingers have gone and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, this

1624
01:54:20,080 --> 01:54:21,080
can't be happening.

1625
01:54:21,080 --> 01:54:24,080
Like what is like, have I just woken up?

1626
01:54:24,080 --> 01:54:26,080
Like what's going on?

1627
01:54:26,080 --> 01:54:29,840
And then at the start of the matrix where it's like all the numerical zeros and ones

1628
01:54:29,840 --> 01:54:36,080
and greens, I turned my hand around and it's just like running like the matrix.

1629
01:54:36,080 --> 01:54:43,880
And for the next seven hours, I was just in and out of some of the deepest trips I've

1630
01:54:43,880 --> 01:54:44,880
ever had.

1631
01:54:44,880 --> 01:54:52,960
At one point I was like a hexagonal kaleidoscope type spider just going through the trees,

1632
01:54:52,960 --> 01:54:55,120
just spinning webs.

1633
01:54:55,120 --> 01:55:05,400
And then I was going through all these different experiences and I didn't feel like I had achieved

1634
01:55:05,400 --> 01:55:12,080
anything from this experience, but I definitely felt like I was definitely a little bit happier.

1635
01:55:12,080 --> 01:55:17,480
And I walked off into the forest, which I wasn't allowed to do, but I was very good

1636
01:55:17,480 --> 01:55:22,040
at just kind of like getting away and just walking barefoot wherever.

1637
01:55:22,040 --> 01:55:26,400
I just sat down and I just talked to Khan and I said, like, I love you, man.

1638
01:55:26,400 --> 01:55:29,760
Like I'm doing this for you.

1639
01:55:29,760 --> 01:55:34,240
And I just absolutely am so sorry that this happened.

1640
01:55:34,240 --> 01:55:39,960
And I sang the Chris Isaac song Wicked Game to him as he was passing away.

1641
01:55:39,960 --> 01:55:46,520
And I just remember sitting in the forest and just singing Wicked Game because the world

1642
01:55:46,520 --> 01:55:56,480
was on fire and no one could save me but him.

1643
01:55:56,480 --> 01:55:59,000
Just them lyrics really just mean a lot to me.

1644
01:55:59,000 --> 01:56:06,440
And I have Khan tattooed on my throat and it has Wicked Game tattooed underneath on

1645
01:56:06,440 --> 01:56:08,600
top.

1646
01:56:08,600 --> 01:56:12,640
And yeah, I just sang it to him.

1647
01:56:12,640 --> 01:56:18,200
And that experience, I think I was in like a hallucinogenic state for about six to seven

1648
01:56:18,200 --> 01:56:26,560
hours and for about three to four days afterwards, I was the happiest I'd ever been.

1649
01:56:26,560 --> 01:56:30,360
Crazy and mushrooms as well have definitely helped me.

1650
01:56:30,360 --> 01:56:36,200
I microdose on mushrooms, not daily, but once or twice a week, I'll have a few little bits

1651
01:56:36,200 --> 01:56:38,840
and 0.2 milligram capsules.

1652
01:56:38,840 --> 01:56:46,960
And every now and again, I'll do a little spring cleaning and I'll do like a gram and

1653
01:56:46,960 --> 01:56:47,960
really trip some balls.

1654
01:56:47,960 --> 01:56:54,040
And then kind of like the last time I did trip out, I was in Eastern Washington and

1655
01:56:54,040 --> 01:56:59,720
I was in this mountainous range and the trees were just speaking to me.

1656
01:56:59,720 --> 01:57:05,080
They were just waving and the wind was just talking to me and it just solidified everything

1657
01:57:05,080 --> 01:57:07,080
that I was doing with Emerald Arch.

1658
01:57:07,080 --> 01:57:10,920
Keep saving us, keep saving us, please.

1659
01:57:10,920 --> 01:57:13,560
We believe in you.

1660
01:57:13,560 --> 01:57:16,560
Really like, I do, it was weird.

1661
01:57:16,560 --> 01:57:18,800
And then my friends were like, hey, Harry, we're going to go on a walk.

1662
01:57:18,800 --> 01:57:21,200
And I'm like, dude, the trees are speaking to me.

1663
01:57:21,200 --> 01:57:27,440
And they're like, oh, fuck, we need to take more mushrooms.

1664
01:57:27,440 --> 01:57:35,440
But I've definitely had some kind of like psychedelic help, but I have not found that

1665
01:57:35,440 --> 01:57:38,720
it has cured my mental health.

1666
01:57:38,720 --> 01:57:44,680
Like a lot of people who have been struggling with PTSD have had some breakthroughs with

1667
01:57:44,680 --> 01:57:50,160
whether it be ketamine, whether it be mushrooms or whether it be ayahuasca.

1668
01:57:50,160 --> 01:57:56,560
Like I know a lot of people have definitely felt the powers of that, but I have felt the

1669
01:57:56,560 --> 01:57:58,560
powers of it briefly.

1670
01:57:58,560 --> 01:58:03,680
Well, I'm glad I asked because I mean, again, it's all these different perspectives.

1671
01:58:03,680 --> 01:58:06,040
A lot of people I know were in crisis.

1672
01:58:06,040 --> 01:58:08,840
They went and did ayahuasca, ibogaine, et cetera.

1673
01:58:08,840 --> 01:58:13,480
And there's a lot of them that took multiple goes before they had breakthroughs.

1674
01:58:13,480 --> 01:58:16,600
But even then, now you're processing what was in the closet.

1675
01:58:16,600 --> 01:58:17,600
You know what I mean?

1676
01:58:17,600 --> 01:58:25,600
So I think the more stories we hear, the more hope we infuse because the toolbox is so,

1677
01:58:25,600 --> 01:58:26,600
so large.

1678
01:58:26,600 --> 01:58:30,920
And for you, clearly, one of the most healing things was simply being in nature and having

1679
01:58:30,920 --> 01:58:37,040
purpose like engaging with other beautiful animal souls and going on the journey with

1680
01:58:37,040 --> 01:58:38,040
them.

1681
01:58:38,040 --> 01:58:40,240
For others, it was EMDR and talk therapy.

1682
01:58:40,240 --> 01:58:41,520
That was all they needed.

1683
01:58:41,520 --> 01:58:45,100
For me, clearly, the canine element is a huge part of my journey.

1684
01:58:45,100 --> 01:58:49,920
So just hearing this combination of all the things that you've talked about today, I

1685
01:58:49,920 --> 01:58:55,400
mean, even watching your dad cry on your shoulder when you surprised him, and the joy in your

1686
01:58:55,400 --> 01:58:59,760
brother's face when you took him on the walks and he came back saying, I didn't say much,

1687
01:58:59,760 --> 01:59:04,440
all these snakes and all these insects and all these animals, these little moments, all

1688
01:59:04,440 --> 01:59:06,680
these kind of factor into that jigsaw puzzle.

1689
01:59:06,680 --> 01:59:09,040
So it's absolutely beautiful to hear.

1690
01:59:09,040 --> 01:59:13,060
I want to make sure that people know where they can find Emerald Arch and support what

1691
01:59:13,060 --> 01:59:14,060
you're doing there.

1692
01:59:14,060 --> 01:59:16,720
So where's the best place online or social media for that?

1693
01:59:16,720 --> 01:59:17,720
Yeah.

1694
01:59:17,720 --> 01:59:22,200
So we do have an Instagram, which is just emerald.arch.

1695
01:59:22,200 --> 01:59:24,440
And then online, it's just www.emeraldarch.org.

1696
01:59:24,440 --> 01:59:31,840
They're the best places that you can really find what we're going to be getting up to.

1697
01:59:31,840 --> 01:59:39,680
This last year has been kind of a slow one, getting 501c3 status and going through everything

1698
01:59:39,680 --> 01:59:44,000
that goes with the IRS is obviously a pain.

1699
01:59:44,000 --> 01:59:48,920
But this year, and hopefully with my visa coming in and being able to travel, buying

1700
01:59:48,920 --> 01:59:52,560
land is the first hurdle.

1701
01:59:52,560 --> 01:59:55,800
So we're going to have to be fundraising for that.

1702
01:59:55,800 --> 01:59:59,760
But if anyone is a veteran or if anyone is struggling with PTSD, you don't have to have

1703
01:59:59,760 --> 02:00:00,760
served.

1704
02:00:00,760 --> 02:00:06,480
That is not anything that we want to, if you are struggling with your mental health, whether

1705
02:00:06,480 --> 02:00:13,200
it be serving in the military, serving in the fire service or just any first responder,

1706
02:00:13,200 --> 02:00:22,160
or if you've just had childhood trauma, whether that be abuse in any kind of way or PTSD from

1707
02:00:22,160 --> 02:00:27,880
car accidents, whatever it is, if you are struggling and we have the land and we have

1708
02:00:27,880 --> 02:00:34,280
everything in place, I want people to be able to just open up to Emerald Arch and myself

1709
02:00:34,280 --> 02:00:35,840
because I've been there.

1710
02:00:35,840 --> 02:00:40,320
This is a thing, you know, like when you go to psychiatrists and doctors, you don't know

1711
02:00:40,320 --> 02:00:41,720
what they've been through.

1712
02:00:41,720 --> 02:00:44,840
You don't know if your story is going to relate to them.

1713
02:00:44,840 --> 02:00:48,400
You don't know if opening up to them is going to help you in any way.

1714
02:00:48,400 --> 02:00:53,960
But if you know that someone like myself has been in a place of darkness and in a place

1715
02:00:53,960 --> 02:01:00,120
of absolute chaos, then you might be able to open up and feel a little bit more freer

1716
02:01:00,120 --> 02:01:11,040
about trying nature and trying freedom as a healing, as a way of healing.

1717
02:01:11,040 --> 02:01:12,040
Absolutely.

1718
02:01:12,040 --> 02:01:15,600
Well, the film I know is playing on Amazon Prime right now.

1719
02:01:15,600 --> 02:01:17,580
The film is called Wildcat.

1720
02:01:17,580 --> 02:01:21,480
If people want to reach out to you specifically, aside from the nonprofit, where are the best

1721
02:01:21,480 --> 02:01:24,160
places online and social media?

1722
02:01:24,160 --> 02:01:30,640
Yeah, so best place to reach out to me is usually just via my Instagram, which is just

1723
02:01:30,640 --> 02:01:34,240
harry underscore underscore Turner.

1724
02:01:34,240 --> 02:01:37,440
And I'm usually pretty good at getting back to people.

1725
02:01:37,440 --> 02:01:41,800
After the documentary, I had, you know, quite a few people messaging me.

1726
02:01:41,800 --> 02:01:48,560
Only a few assholes, which were like, you're an idiot, but a lot of them were really, really

1727
02:01:48,560 --> 02:01:50,480
nice messages.

1728
02:01:50,480 --> 02:01:57,440
And it really did encourage me to go on to more podcasts and to go on to more platforms

1729
02:01:57,440 --> 02:01:58,440
in this.

1730
02:01:58,440 --> 02:02:04,080
And it's encouraged me to write my book as well, because I know that this film means

1731
02:02:04,080 --> 02:02:08,400
a lot to me, but it also has meant a lot to a lot of other people.

1732
02:02:08,400 --> 02:02:15,400
And it has made people understand mental health in a way that they didn't before, because

1733
02:02:15,400 --> 02:02:17,280
it's so vulnerable.

1734
02:02:17,280 --> 02:02:22,760
And so I will try and get back to people on Instagram as quick as I can.

1735
02:02:22,760 --> 02:02:26,320
But usually that's the best way to contact me.

1736
02:02:26,320 --> 02:02:28,740
Well, I just want to say thank you.

1737
02:02:28,740 --> 02:02:32,440
It's been an incredible conversation.

1738
02:02:32,440 --> 02:02:37,000
I acknowledge the fact that when you're reliving some of the things, whether it was Khan, whether

1739
02:02:37,000 --> 02:02:41,640
it was the Middle East, it takes a little piece of you pulling the scab off the wound

1740
02:02:41,640 --> 02:02:42,640
a little bit.

1741
02:02:42,640 --> 02:02:48,800
But I think there's so much value to people hearing the struggles and then seeing the

1742
02:02:48,800 --> 02:02:51,760
hope on the other side and then the loss of Khan.

1743
02:02:51,760 --> 02:02:58,040
But the incredible story of Keanu and finding out that six months later, he's still thriving

1744
02:02:58,040 --> 02:03:00,420
and out there.

1745
02:03:00,420 --> 02:03:05,740
But this, again, like I said, this courageous vulnerability is what we need in 2024.

1746
02:03:05,740 --> 02:03:09,160
This is what masculinity and femininity actually is.

1747
02:03:09,160 --> 02:03:12,920
There's times where we have to be tough and there's times where we absolutely have to

1748
02:03:12,920 --> 02:03:15,540
be compassionate with others and with ourselves.

1749
02:03:15,540 --> 02:03:19,920
So I want to thank you so, so much for being not only, as I said, courageously vulnerable

1750
02:03:19,920 --> 02:03:24,000
today, but also so generous with your time.

1751
02:03:24,000 --> 02:03:25,000
Thank you very much, James.

1752
02:03:25,000 --> 02:03:26,000
I really do appreciate your time.

1753
02:03:26,000 --> 02:03:38,720
And this has been a great podcast.