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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.
As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on
the show one of the founding members of the Broken Lizard Troupe, star of Super Troopers,
Beer Fest, Tacoma FD and so many more Firehouse favorites, Kevin Heffernan.
So in this conversation we discuss a host of topics from his early life, his journey
into the world of lore, the story how he met Steve Lemmy, the formation of Broken Lizard,
Super Troopers, Beer Fest, how they brought Quasi to the streaming services, how his cousin
was a big influence on the creation of Tacoma FD, overcoming censorship and so much more.
Before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment,
go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and
leave a rating.
Every single 5 star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find.
And this is a free library of almost 900 episodes now.
So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so
I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you, Kevin Heffernan.
Enjoy.
Well, Kevin, I want to start by saying firstly, thank you to Eric Stolhansky, I'll just start
on his name then, for connecting us and to welcome you onto the Behind the Shield podcast
today.
Yeah, he's a fellow Floridian to you, isn't he?
He is, yes.
And yeah, no, he put us together, which is great, which is great.
Absolutely.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, well, thank you.
I mean, obviously the timing is perfect.
You know, we were going to be connected a little while ago, but now with Tacoma FD just
being on Netflix as well, there couldn't be a better time, I think, for this conversation.
So I always tell people it's not if it's when and, you know, when the time is right, it
will happen.
So here we are.
Yeah, no, I know.
It's been a good couple of weeks.
We've been on the show has been on Netflix for a couple of weeks now and a lot of people
are finding it.
So this is a nice.
This is a good time to talk, man.
100 percent.
All right.
Well, very first question.
Where on planet Earth are we finding you today?
I'm in Los Angeles.
I live in Los Angeles.
So I was just on the East Coast for the holidays and I got out of there right ahead of the
blizzards.
So I made it back to sunny Los Angeles.
Thank goodness.
So where about in LA are you living?
I live out in the Valley.
I live kind of I don't know about half an hour out of town.
And it's nice because we we shot our show out here.
So it ended up being a good place for me to live near near the near the location of our
show.
So beautiful.
I lived in Burbank for a while and then Huntington Beach when I worked for Amaheim Fire.
OK, yeah, I'm on the other side in the Thousand Oaks area.
OK, gotcha.
Yeah.
Beautiful.
So we're going to start with the very beginning of your timeline so we can learn a little
bit about your backstory.
So tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what
your parents did, how many siblings?
OK, I grew up in Connecticut, West Haven, Connecticut, which is just west of New Haven,
Connecticut.
And I have two brothers and a sister and my parents.
My dad was a kind of a local lawyer.
He was a lawyer for many years and a judge, actually.
And so he was a judge for about 30 years in my hometown, 28 years.
And so, yeah, so I just grew up in Connecticut, pretty normal childhood.
And I ended up going to Colgate University in upstate New York.
And that's where I met all the other fellas that we made these broken lizard movies with
the Super Troopers and Beer Fest, and we started doing comedy there.
And from there, we moved to New York City and just started making comedy.
And at the time, I wasn't sure if it was all going to work out.
So I ended up going to law school at the same time.
And I became a lawyer in New York City for a while and then luckily was able to shift
gears into the comedy world.
So I don't know.
That's the grand scheme of covering about 40 years right there for you.
Well, I'm going to go back.
So let's talk about growing up with a dad in law.
Firstly, what area of law was he practicing?
He was kind of a general practice guy.
He was the kind of small town lawyer that people would hire if they had some sort of
injury or workplace problem or whatever.
And he also kind of specialized in estates, very dry stuff.
And it led him to be a judge for 28 years in that area of estates and that kind of thing.
And so yeah, I mean, we had grown about that.
And I grew up, you know, and I think that's probably what I aspired to, to follow my dad's
footsteps, you know.
And so I kind of was on that track for a long time.
Did having someone in law as a parent factor into you being more careful when you were
a teenager, not getting into too much trouble?
It's funny, we would hear stories and I'll talk about my older cousin, this guy named
cousin Bill, who's a firefighter, was a firefighter for 30 years in my hometown.
And he was much more of a troublemaker.
And we'd hear stories about my dad going down and bailing him out of jail.
And it made me think that maybe I should keep myself in order.
So yeah, I mean, we tried to let that be a thing that kept us in line.
And sometimes it didn't work out, but you know, we tried to stay on the stage straight
and narrow.
Now, what about sports?
What were you playing when you were a school age?
I don't know, we kind of did it all, you know, we played hockey and baseball, I played football,
played basketball and, you know, kind of the big four or whatever.
And so, you know, we played in those leagues as kids and little league and pop Warner football
and, you know, all that kind of stuff.
And we do that all the way up through high school.
So it was kind of very, you know, straightforward.
I was never that great at any of them.
You know, I was, you know, moderately okay.
And but, you know, it was that was the kind of way that you engage with other people and
have fun with your friends and that kind of thing.
When I was little, I was very small, had a blonde Afro, buck teeth, dry skin, and spoke
differently than a lot of the kids because I went to a private junior school and then
at like a state school, you know, the public senior school.
And so was constantly having to be a bit of a chameleon and definitely became a bit of
a sniper when it came to saying funny shit.
I wasn't the class clown or anything, but comedy became kind of an armor for me, I think,
when I look back.
And a lot of the people that I've had on the show that ended up in comedy, there was, you
know, more often than not an element of bullying or low self-esteem when they were younger
and that comedy kind of came out of that.
When you look back now, is there any of that genesis on your story?
I don't know.
I think there probably was a little bit.
I was always a heavy kid, you know, so I was always a little fat kid who's the, you know,
the kid who's always tends to be the jokester.
But I don't, yeah, I don't think like you, I don't think I was necessarily the class
clown.
You know, it was.
But you know, I definitely gravitated towards like the funny stuff and the wisecracking
and you know, I always enjoyed, you know, watching comedy and that kind of stuff as
a kid.
I don't think that I fill the role of like tortured artists or bullied kid that turned
to comedy.
I don't, I don't really fit that role.
I don't think I think I was just, you know, you know, Steve Lammy, my partner in crime
in Tacoma, you know, we always talked about the traditional funny fat guy and I was like
the little funny fat kid.
Well, what about career aspirations?
I know you ended up in law.
Was that what you were dreaming of becoming when you were in school or is there something
else?
I think so.
I mean, I think I was always on the track, you know, I worked in a few different law
firms and things like that.
It sounds very, it's very unsexy, but I, you know, I think I was definitely on track for
that.
And and but in the back of my mind, you know, I always enjoyed, you know, performing and
you know, I'd done plays and stuff like that and you know, and when I got into college,
you know, we started doing some comedy shows and that that really kind of clicked for me.
And so I think by the time we got to college, I don't know that we ever realized it would
go where it did.
But by the time we got into college, I think, you know, you're hoping that that's the direction
you could go in, you know, and, you know, so I did dual paths, you know, I when we were
in New York City as a as a young comedy group and doing shows, you know, by day, I would
go to law school and by night we would do comedy shows and just, you know, see which
track won.
You know, I was watching an interview, I think it was a ABC, one of one of the TV stations
anyway.
And you were on with Steve, I think it was promoting Tacoma, if I'm not mistaken, but
the origin story of how you met that involved a party in an overcoat.
So I'd love to hear that story if you're able to recall it.
Well, Steve Lemmy is kind of a rake, you know, he's always kind of an impish kind of guy.
And he was a year younger than I was at school.
And so, you know, I was a member of this fraternity house and he was a freshman below us who was
trying to get into the fraternity house.
And, you know, we would have this and I had never met the kid before.
And we would have these parties at this fraternity house.
And it was an upstate New York, it was very cold.
Everyone would show up in their winter coat, everyone take their winter coat off and throw
it in the middle of the floor.
And then they go party or whatever, you know.
And so one night there's a party and I went to the pile to grab my coat to go.
And my coat was gone, it was missing, somebody stole it, you know, which happened occasionally,
but I was pissed off because it was freezing out.
And, you know, I lost it.
And so I went a couple of weeks without my coat and then there was another party.
And I saw my coat in that pile, you know, I was like, holy shit, there's my coat.
And I went, I grabbed it and I reached inside of it and the guy apparently who was the thief
who stole my coat had left his college ID in the pocket of the coat.
I pulled it out and it says Stephen Carlos Lemmy.
And I was like, who is this guy?
And somebody said, oh, he's a freshman, he's trying to get into the fraternity and whatever.
And he's in the other room dancing, you know, and I was like, oh boy.
So I went up to him and I said, hey, buddy, you stole my coat.
He said, no, I didn't.
He said, yeah, I found your ID inside the coat.
And he went, oh my God, the same guy that stole your coat must have been the guy who
stole my ID.
And I thought that's a great response.
And from then, from that point, that was the first time we kind of met.
And then ultimately we were thrown into this comedy group together and we just kind of
hit it off and started writing stuff together.
But it was not an auspicious beginning to our career because I hated him.
I didn't like the guy, you know, and, you know, I've come to like him a little bit over
the years.
So how did you get over that, though?
Because I mean, at one point, you know, this or the only thing you know about this guy
is that he's a thief.
And now you put in this group together.
It's funny because we because we had started this comedy group in college.
J. Chenner Sekar was one of the guys was the guy I started with.
And ultimately, you know, he went on to direct Super Troopers and we did our group together.
We still have our group.
So Jane, I kind of started that group, that comedy group at school.
And Jay really wanted to have Steve be a part of it.
And I was like, I'm not putting that guy in this thing.
You know, the guy's a thief.
You know, I don't like him.
You know, he's got long hair and earrings.
I don't like that.
You know, all that kind of stuff.
And he's like, oh, you know what?
We'll get him in there.
He can play like the scumbag roles.
You know, he can play like the the, you know, the the guys who were, you know, you don't
really like that much.
And I was like, OK.
And so I let him, you know, I said, that's OK.
He can come in.
And so he joined.
And then from there, though, you know, we actually are have a very similar sense of
humors and things that we like.
We became, you know, great friends at that point because we were kind of thrown in this
thing together.
And and from then on, we just kind of, you know, had a great time writing things together.
We would write sketches together for the two of us to star in and act in or whatever.
And it kind of just ended up growing from there.
What about Eric?
When did you first come on your radar?
Eric was Eric was also a year below us.
And and I didn't even know him that way.
He came into our comedy group the second year.
And but he was also a member of our fraternity.
And and he he I knew him as a member of the attorney before I knew him as like a performer.
But he was kind of a theater guy.
And you know, he came into the group and he used to do this like funny, like ridiculous,
like lizard character or something.
And you know, we would we made like we would shoot videos of it and stuff.
And so, you know, he joined us the second year.
And then when we moved to New York City, he has another year of school.
And after that, he came and joined us in New York City and and lived with lived on our
couch or whatever.
But yeah, I mean, that was, you know, that was in the in the early 90s.
So you know, we've been together for a long time.
Do you get angry again now that long hair and earrings are back in fashion?
No, no.
I say, you know, I love, you know, my kids got long hair and I, you know, I don't I love
that.
I like Lemmy's long hair.
I just like to give him shit about it because he had a very New York look.
You know, he had a he had, you know, long hair and like multiple earrings.
And he would wear like this suede coat with tassels on it that he would walk around town
on and you're like, are you kidding me, pal?
But on the inside, I actually really liked his look.
So what about the the kind of genesis of the style of comedy that you guys ended up creating?
Because I mean, you know, I'm obviously growing up with Monty Python and some of these other
more obscure comedians.
And that's embedded in British culture.
But when it comes to the fire service, Super Troopers, Beer Fest, some of these films that
you ended up making were absolute firehouse favorites.
And I'm sure you heard that many, many times.
So when you're surrounded by the spectrum of comedy from the super cheesy sexes like
baseball stand up comedian all the way through to the obscure, how did you guys find the
area that you created?
You know, I think part of it was just this group dynamic that we had in that, like, you
know, a lot of the goals at the time was to make each other laugh and what it was to make
each other laugh.
I think everyone drew on whatever they came from.
You know, I mean, I think, you know, at the time, you know, you know, certainly, you know,
we grew up on, you know, early SNL and we grew up on, you know, the John Landis movies,
you know, like the Blues Brothers or, you know, or those Lampoon movies or, you know,
you know, Animal House and stuff like that.
I think those were kind of the things that informed us.
And a lot of it was like a group of people, a group of usually guys together, you know,
having a good time, making each other laugh.
And that was always something that we kind of focused on, I feel like.
I mean, another kind of thing I think that we always kind of focused on in that vein
was that idea of creating worlds where or situations where the people who are watching
the audience felt like they were a part of something or that they wanted to belong to
something and, you know, it was never we were never a mean spirited group.
We were never, you know, targeting people or whatever it was.
It was more of like, let's create this environment where we're all going to have some laughs
together because that's what we're doing anyway.
Right.
We're that group of college guys who are like, you guys are funny.
You should make a movie.
And then we actually did make a movie, you know.
And so, I don't know, I think it was that kind of like good natured camaraderie.
And those are the kind of comedies we liked.
And that's the common comedy we decided to make.
What about naysayers?
There's a lot of people that are very successful now and they had to navigate so many people
saying, oh, you'll never because, you know, what was the resistance that you were getting
from some of the other people in your arena?
Well, I mean, I think you certainly get that from, you know, to a certain extent from parents
and things like that who think, you know, maybe it's a little bit of folly, you know,
that you're heading down this road.
And also, it's just, you know, it's a hard nut to crack.
You know, it's a hard business to get into.
And once you get into it, it's a hard business to sustain and make a living at.
So I think those were the big, the kind of big naysayers were like, ah, you guys will
never get anywhere.
And you know, I think it was weird because like even from our younger states, we had
just enough success each time to keep us going to the next step and to keep us kind of persevering.
And you know, I think that helped us overcome the naysayers and that we had, you know, a
certain level of success, whether it was, hey, we got into this film festival or hey,
we sold this movie or we sold this TV idea and we just kept rolling, you know.
So I think, you know, we ran into the normal obstacles that everyone had.
But you know, I think I don't know if it was dumb or just persevering.
We just kind of pushed our way through it all, you know.
I got a feeling that when you're told, oh, you'll never do that, you're probably on
the right track.
That means you're further enough out of the comfort zone to challenge the way people think.
Absolutely.
You're like, oh yeah, okay, fine.
You know.
And again, you know, it's also, you know, we were so lucky to have a support group.
You know what I mean?
It's like so many people try to jump into this business and they're alone or whatever
it is.
We walked into this business with, you know, four of our best friends that we've known
for many, many years.
And you always had that support group.
And you know, if you couldn't get into someone's movie or you couldn't get into someone's
whatever, you just made your own with the guys that you had.
And that was always the mentality.
So what about the origin story for your first film being about troopers?
Yeah.
Well, I mean, that was kind of weird.
We had made a film before that.
It was called Puddle Cruiser and we had sold it.
We brought it to the Sundance Film Festival.
It was a movie we made for about 200,000 bucks and we shot it at our old college and it was
kind of a college romantic comedy.
And that was a little bit of the calling card.
So we brought that to a few festivals, went to the Sundance Film Festival back in 97 or
98.
And it ended up, you know, giving us a foothold.
You know, we met a lot of people and so it made us feel like, hey, we could do this.
And so let's make a big movie or not a big movie, but like a real movie.
And so we had been batting around a couple of ideas.
And at the same time, it was kind of, we were at that age where you're like, you know, like
you're in your like your thirties or your late twenties and like all your buddies get
married and you're going all these weddings and stuff like that.
Like I haven't been to a wedding in a long time, but there was a time where you hit like
five in a summer, you know.
And I remember we would jump into Jay's car and we would drive around, you know, five
or six of us and go to these weddings.
And you know, and occasionally we would get pulled over by the cops.
And we always thought it was hysterical where, you know, these five kind of false bravado
guys ride around in a car, you know, cracking jokes and whatever.
And then the moment that cop walks up to the car, it's yes sir, no sir.
Your tail is between your legs, you know.
And we always thought that dynamic was really funny.
And so we just started riffing and riffing on scenarios where that would be the case
where, you know, if you're on the cop side of it, what power did you have?
What ability do you have to fuck around with the guys on the other side?
And you know, I think we just started writing almost like sketches, you know, like what
if they did this?
What if they did this repeater game?
And what if, you know, the cops were trying to say meow all the time, you know, whatever,
we had all these ideas and we just kind of started writing these scenes.
And then we started stringing them together, you know, with a plot.
And you know, I don't think any of us ever expected the success that would have or how
it would resonate with people, but you know, it was basically a series of cop sketches.
And I think the kind of the unique thing was we were on the side of the cops, you know,
and that and cops loved that.
I mean, the whole kind of law enforcement, the guys in uniform loved that, you know,
the military guys, everybody that you were showing that these guys were human and that
they, you know, they liked to have fun and they were good natured people and that kind
of stuff.
You know, that was probably the thing that resonated.
And then it just kind of slowly took off.
You know, we made that movie.
We didn't necessarily know what we were doing.
We brought that to the Sundance Film Festival and then we sold that there and it was put
in theaters, which to us was like, holy crap.
And it just kind of took off from there.
It was a little of a slow burn in the sense that, you know, a lot of people didn't go
to the theater and watch that movie.
You know, you watch that in your DVD and you watch that in your dorm room and you watch
that with your buddies or you watch the guy, you know, in the barracks or you watch in
the, you know, in the fire station or whatever it was.
And then it just kind of grew from there.
You know, what about technical advisors?
I had Dale Dye on, he's actually coming back on again, cause they've just made a sequel
to Band of Brothers and amazing.
I worked with him.
I did stunts for a long time.
So I worked with him doing like a little prep bootcamp for a stunt show that I did years
ago in Japan.
But he obviously prepares these actors for serious drama roles, you know, dramatic roles
and playing the soldier properly.
How much technical advising did you have for super troopers?
Did you kind of inquire in that community or did you do it more blind?
No, I mean, like I remember like a funny moment.
It's like, you know, like I said, we just kind of wrote these sketches and we didn't
have a whole lot of technical, like Tacoma, we really kind of like, you know, crossed
our T's and dotted our I's with technical stuff.
But I think then we didn't know.
And I remember one like funny incident where, I think it was like the first or second day
we were shooting and we were on this highway and we shut down the highway and to shoot
and to do that, you had to have, you know, local police officers come and do that for
you and some stay.
And so we had, you know, some state troopers there and some local police officers and they
started kind of arguing over who, you know, was going to be in charge of this, you know,
the highway and closing it down and opening it up and whatever.
And we thought that was great.
And we started talking to those guys and we started asking them questions.
And you know, really we started filling stuff in on the fly, you know, from the guys who
were on our set just to shut down traffic.
And we're like, what about this?
And how does this happen?
What do you do with the?
And then, you know, once it's the same way with the firefighters, once you start them
talking, you know, they have a hundred stories, you know, they have a story about the rookie
and what they did to this guy and the prank they pull on that guy.
And so that was a really kind of on the fly technical advisor stuff where we were talking
to the cops who were on the set.
Because we didn't, I mean, we didn't know any better at that point.
You know, we put together a certain, you know, shoestring budget and just went there with
some cameras and started shooting that movie.
I mean, luckily, I think, you know, I mean, there's plenty of stuff in there that doesn't
fly, but I think, you know, luckily the cops didn't actually call bullshit on us because
they, they enjoyed the movie so much.
It wasn't the documentary.
Oh, we try very hard to not let people call bullshit on us or to avoid that at least.
Absolutely.
Well, what about Beerfest?
Your last name is Heffernan.
Do you have German ancestry?
Was that somewhat of an inspiration for it?
Was it completely detached?
No.
No, it's all Irish for me, you know.
Yeah, no, Beerfest was, it was, you know, we came out, we made a movie called Club Dread
after Super Troopers and it was a bomb, you know, and I love that movie, but it failed,
it flopped, you know, and we were criticized, you know, we were criticized for being sophomoric
and you know, you know, like fart jokes and whatever it is, you know, that kind of stuff
where you get, you get knocked for, you know, maybe low, low, low brow humor or whatever
it was and so Beerfest was a reaction to that.
It was kind of like, oh, you think that we're sophomoric?
You think we're, you know, whatever, frat boys or whatever.
Let's make a movie called Beerfest, you know, and we had gone on a tour to Australia for
Super Troopers, the original Super Troopers and, you know, a tour in Australia is very
different than a tour in here, you know.
It's a much, you know, kind of more raw and, you know, raucous movie tour, you know, so
we would go to a lot of beer gardens and we would go to a lot of bars and, you know, whatever,
show up there in uniform, whatever it was.
And I remember we were at a beer garden and what they decided the promotion would be is
that we would get up on stage, the five of us, and we chug beers against five local Australian
guys.
And so, we're like, all right, let's do it, whatever.
So they call us up on stage and there were these five guys who were like at a bachelor
party at this beer garden and this big crowd outside this outside garden and they pull
these five guys up on stage and they said, all right, you know, we're gonna do a line
chug against these guys and it's gonna be a boat race, you know, it's gonna be a race,
you know.
And so we started the race and the crowd went crazy.
Like it was like yelling anti-American shit, you know, whenever it was like this fervent,
like people were rooting for their guys so hard that ultimately they had to take us off
after the thing and we lost and they took us off the stage and they put us in a van
and had to get us out of there because it was this raucous thing.
And we thought that was one of the funniest things we'd seen and one of the coolest things
we've seen and that was the genesis for that beer fest that day.
It was like, oh my God, what if we made this nationalistic Olympic competition of beer
drinking and the fans are drunk and everyone's crazy and whatever.
So that was the kind of this Australian trip was the genesis for that idea.
And then in response to, you know, us being criticized for being sophomoric, we decided
let's make this movie.
And you know, it had kicked around a little bit.
We tried a couple of different places and then ultimately Jay Chandrasekhar had directed
the remake of the Dukes of Hazard and he did that for Warner Brothers and it was a success
for them.
And in response, they said, well, you guys can go make beer fest.
And so we made that on a shoestring budget and that was, you know, one of the most fun,
you know, movies that we ever made.
You know, we had those German bad guys and we got, you know, some real kind of bodybuilder
guys and we got some great comic guys like Will Forte and that faction, Eric Christian
Olsen and they played the bad guys.
We got, you know, guys like Donald Sutherland in there and, you know, it was just a really
fun movie to make.
And, you know, I think that resonated with a whole nother group of people.
You know, it's like you meet people and it depends on what their age is.
But you know, some people are Supertruth fans, some people are beer fest fans.
But that was a great, it was a great experience to make that movie.
Again, that was a movie that did not succeed at the time in the box office, but since has
had this huge life kind of afterwards that people connect with.
I wrote a book three years ago and when you release the book, you're like, oh, it needs
to be a success now.
And then you have a realization that you made it.
It doesn't matter when it takes off, as long as it's out there.
And listen to the story about Band of Brothers again, they released it in 2001 and then 9-11
happened.
So it didn't really have that, you know, the old eyes on it at that point.
And it was actually the 10 year anniversary when most of us really learned about Band
of Brothers and it really took off and that was 10 years later.
Yeah.
It just takes, you know, the time and the problem is there's so much fervor and so much
weight placed on the release time of things, whether it's a TV show or a book or a movie
or a song or whatever it is.
And then you forget that you're still putting that thing out into the world and people are,
you know, people are going to discover it.
And that's been the case with every one of our projects, every one of them.
You know, Super Troopers was like, you know, three years after the movie came out, we're
walking down the street in New York City and some guy comes running out of a bar and he's
like, you're the Super Troopers guys.
And we're like, yeah, come on, let me buy you some beers.
You know, and that was that kind of stuff didn't happen until years after Super Troopers
came out, you know.
And it's the same thing with Beer Fest, the same thing with we just made a movie called
Quasi which came out on Hulu last year.
And we wrote that movie 20 years ago and it just takes a while.
But ultimately if it's good or if you know, you have a fan base or whatever, they'll discover
it.
So what was your experience going from the regular movies to the streaming service?
I think when Eric came on, it was literally right before Quasi and it was funny.
I was literally walking with my wife a few days ago and we were laughing about the rack
scene, how every scene he gets taller and taller and taller.
You know, there's that sense that, you know, people on the rack before they get ripped
apart, they probably feel really fucking good, right?
You know, a little decompression before I die.
So what was that experience like because some people have had on the show, obviously there's
a negative side to the streaming and the royalties and that kind of thing.
But what made you guys make the leap to that and what has been your experience so far?
Well, I think it was really a function of, it was a result of the circumstances, you
know.
It's like, obviously that was coming down the line, you know.
It's so expensive to put movies in movie theaters now and to kind of crack into that market.
And I think that, you know, the companies are realizing that.
And it was the pandemic, I think, that really brought that to fruition, you know, where
nobody was going to the movies and they, you know, they realized, God, we better get these
services farther along and, you know, that they realized that maybe there was more of
a life with people sitting on their couch, you know.
And I get it, you know, maybe, you know, there are certain elements of in the film world
where it's not considered as prestigious or it's more of an event to go out to the movie
theater.
And I understand that.
I mean, from our circumstances was we made that quasi deal to be in the movie theaters.
And then when the pandemic hit, there were no movie theaters, you know.
They were closing them down and they didn't know what the future of it was either, you
know.
They didn't even know if they were going to come back.
And so you didn't really have a choice at that point, you know.
And the company said that came to a searchlight and they said, you know, look, we have this
deal with Hulu.
There are no movies and movie theaters right now.
Do you guys want to convert your deal and we'll make it a streaming deal and you guys
can make the movie.
And at the time we were kind of like, hey, look, however it works, you know, however
we can get this seen by people were great with it.
And so, you know, I think we were, you know, we had to make that decision at that point
time.
And now it's the T it's the Tacoma stuff to me that's made me realize that, you know,
the most important thing for me, you know, we tell funny stories and the most important
thing is for as many people to laugh at that as you can or just spread it.
And, you know, the streaming has become the way to do that.
And we're finding that with Tacoma is that it's a way to reach more people, you know.
And, you know, we don't make superhero movies and we don't make huge blockbuster movies.
And so that seems to be the way to reach the people these days.
So I'm totally fine with it.
You know, however they watch it.
I love that people are watching Tacoma on Netflix right now.
I think it's great.
And and, you know, you hear from people and fans, people discovering it.
So yeah, I mean, it was a weird experience for quasi because you were used to the build
up to opening weekend, right?
Everything's about opening weekend.
And then Monday morning, whether it's, you know, a failure or a success, the balloon,
the air is out of the balloon on Monday morning.
You know what I mean?
It's like there's two to three days and then you're done.
The streaming stuff not like that.
You know, it's it's you know, it has a life.
And I really like that about Tacoma.
I liked about quasi to me.
Quasi had a nice run for like three, four months on Hulu.
And it did quite well, you know.
I think that's the better side of the streaming thing.
But you know, it's also just just the future.
You know, it's not streaming.
I don't know that it's going to go away, you know, and I don't think that theatrical movies
are going to go away.
You just have to figure out how to make them cost effective, you know?
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, it's funny when you when you publish a book on Amazon, which is what I did.
I think everyone is the number one bestseller for like a day.
No matter what you've written and how many people buy it, you're a number one seller.
And then all of a sudden, you're actually, you know, book number twenty seven thousand,
whatever.
And it is.
But then you just kind of reframe it and go, you know, it's out there now.
And I think that's what's good about streaming is I can watch it today or I can watch it
a year or five years from now.
But there's two points in life.
You haven't seen it and then you've seen it.
So does it have to be the day it come out?
Or is it 10 years from now?
When as an artist, as long as that person hopefully sees your work or reads your book
or whatever it is, when is kind of irrelevant?
Yeah, I mean, two years from now, someone's going to read your book for the first time,
you know, because I love it.
Oh, you know, it's not going to matter that it came out on April 13th or whatever.
Yeah.
I mean, yeah, when it was the number one bestseller, by the way.
Yeah.
And that's what I think that's what TV has taught me because movies become so precious
about building to a date and all that kind of business.
And if you don't build that day, it's like somebody died.
You know, I remember getting calls, you know, Monday morning after like Club Dread came
out or whatever.
And they're like, we're so, so sorry.
You know, like what, what does we do?
We made this or whatever.
And it's like, oh, and it was like, you know, it was like, you know, somebody in your family
had died, you know, like, well, now they're going to be able to discover that thing, you
know, and then we'll watch it.
And, you know, the movie begets movies, you know, so people who are Broken Lizard fans
watch Tacoma and people who are Tacoma fans go back and watch the Broken Lizard movies
now and, you know, I think it all works out for the best for us.
I mean, I don't know.
Well, you made some very unique films.
I think we're about the same age, roughly.
I'm at a point now where I yearn for new stories.
They've rehashed so many stories.
They've remade, you know, the films from our childhood, The Karate Kids and all these things
over and over and over again.
What is your kind of perspective on the audience these days?
I can't help but feel like people are yearning either for more, you know, true stories or,
I mean, obviously, the reflection of real people like Tacoma, you know, in the real
profession or, you know, brand brand new stories or, you know, more raw stories.
I think that's another thing.
I think that, as you said, the superhero has just been milked to death now.
Marvel and DC have squeezed every single penny out of those stories.
Star Wars franchise.
So to me, a film has to be worthy of someone taking their children, spending 80, 100 dollars,
you know, on sitting in a movie theater.
So I don't know.
I don't even know if there's any question in there.
But what is your perception now on what the audience wants in 2023?
That's why the world is so, you know, the industry is so weird now, you know, because
it's like you do have to justify and you have to justify up your corporate ladder, you know,
why someone's going to go to that movie theater or why someone's going to watch your material.
And you know, that's why, you know, we're in this stage right now.
It'll shift, I think, but they're in this stage now.
It's that there has to be and they told us this when we put, you know, Super Troopers
2 out in the movie theaters, it was like going to the movie theater has to be an event now.
It has to be an event, right?
It has to be, hey, it's not just, hey, let's go catch this little film.
It's like we got to go see the new this and we got to go see the movie that this person's
in.
And whether that's what America or the viewing public wants or whatever it is, that's just
the way the corporate mentality of it is, right?
So you have to overcome that.
And sometimes you can, sometimes you can't.
You know, when we made Quasi, our feeling was, you know, this is a kind of a different
weird movie for us.
You know, it's not something that people have seen us in or whatever.
And we're not going to get anyone to bite on putting this, taking a chance to put this
in the movie theaters, right?
Maybe our best chance is to get some streamer to put some money up on it and do it.
And I guess my feeling is that I still go back to that thing that I said that I think
people want to be a part of something.
I think people want to watch something and connect with it and be like, hey, that's like
me or that's, you know, that character is like, I've been through that, you know, to
me, I still think that's the best driver of entertainment.
And I think, you know, when we make Tacoma, we keep that in our mind where it's like we
pull real life stories of, hey, that happened to me.
And you know, I hate moisturizer or whatever it is.
I like mayonnaise.
Get in there and people, you know, connect with that.
I think that's what, you know, make people want to watch it.
I still believe that that's the driver.
And so that's kind of where we go.
But I don't know if the industry believes that.
And I, you know, yes, it's easier to put Aquaman on a poster and, you know, get people to come
out to watch it than to put, you know, when we made super troopers, the poster for super
troopers, they put us upside down on the poster because we were completely nobody who we were.
And they didn't want you to think that they were nobodies in a movie.
So they put us upside down.
So you couldn't recognize who's on the poster, you know.
And I think that still exists kind of today.
But, you know, I don't know, it's it's cyclical, I think, you know, like it'll come back to
people are like in this kind of a movie.
And then, you know, there'll be another surge of superhero movies and then there'll be another
surge of whatever and zombie movies.
But it's hard.
You know, I just kind of stick with the fact that I think I think people want to connect
personally with things.
So however that happens, you know, we do it through.
100%, which is how you connect in the fire service to, you know, I mean, we see horrible
stuff and laughter is the way that we connect and decompress.
Absolutely.
And, you know, we've talked to a lot of guys about that.
And they're like, hey, you should do a story about this.
We can't do a story about that in this show.
It's a little dark.
You know, whatever.
But, you know, we can take this and make a spin on it.
Well, speaking of that, then, so you mentioned cousin Bill, walk me through, you know, your
experience with him when you were young and your perception of the fire service, however
that was, and then how that factored into the creation of Tacoma FD.
Yeah, I mean, you know, in my hometown, it was always kind of like a family business,
you know, and my cousin was there and there were always like families, you know, that
had people in the fire.
It was fathers and brothers and cousins and they were on the local fire department.
And if your, you know, kid had something stuck in their throat, you'd walk them down to the
fire department in the corner and they'd get the thing out of his throat or whatever it
was, you know, it was a very kind of like community oriented, you know, operation.
And that was something that we always loved.
And as we were trying to make the show, it goes back to kind of what I was saying about
what you connect with is that we pitched this show as a family show because a fire house
is a family.
You're there 24 hours a day with the guys on your shift.
You sleep with them.
You eat with them.
And then at the same time, there are families within where there's cousins and brothers
and fathers and daughters and whatever in the service together.
And that was a big attraction to the idea for us because that's, I think that again,
like I said, that's how people connect with it.
And so, you know, we were batting around these ideas, Lemmy and I, and, you know, my cousin
Bill always been a fan of our stuff and he would always say to us, hey, you think cops
are funny, come talk to me when you want to do a firefighter thing because firefighters
are way more funny than cops are.
Okay.
And so, you know, Lemmy and I were kicking around this idea and part of it was self-serving
in the sense that, you know, we wanted to, we'd spent many years, you know, writing different
TV shows and trying to get TV shows in the air.
It's a tough nut to crack and we've tried to do it for a long time.
And we've constantly come up with ideas about, you know, what we can capitalize and what
people like of us and whatever.
And it's like, hey, people like our mustaches and people like us being in uniforms and let's
talk about a firefighter show.
And we were actually, we were in Tacoma at the comedy club doing a comedy show one weekend,
just Lemmy and I, and it was raining out and whatever.
And we were like, you know, we have pretty funny firefighter show premises that you put
the show in the rainiest city in the country and then you can create the idea that like
super troopers where there's not a lot of traffic so you can have some fun.
There's not a lot of fires in the rainiest city, so you can probably have a lot of fun.
And so we were kind of batting that idea around and we went to cousin Bill and we were like,
hey, we're thinking about it because that's a great idea.
You know, I got, you know, these stories and we just started kind of talking to him and
kind of building the world out a little bit and trying to make this family feel, you know,
you know, of the show and guys who like to have fun.
And, you know, it was funny because it was an inauspicious beginning with the real Tacoma
Fire Department.
You know, we were, we had announced at the show, we were going to make the show and we
were, we were in Seattle and we were doing, Lemmy and I were doing comedy shows in Seattle
and the owner of the club came back.
The owner of the club came to the backstage and he said, hey, there are a bunch of Tacoma
firefighters out there and they want to talk to you.
And we're like, oh shit.
And so after the show, we went out and we met with these guys.
There's like, you know, seven or eight guys and, and they're like, hey, we heard you,
we hear you want to make a show about the Tacoma Fire Department.
And we're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
We were going to make that show.
Like, and what the joke is that it's always rainy so we don't work.
We were like, no, no, no.
It's like, listen, we work very hard.
It's hard as any fire department.
Like we, I know we know.
And so we kind of, we talked to them and we said, we're not going to, you know, we're
going to make you look bad.
We're going to make you look good.
And, you know, look at super troopers, you know, that's what we're going for.
And they finally at the end, this guy, you know, one guy said, okay, all right, fine.
And then the guy reached into his pocket and he pulled out a business card and he said,
if you need a technical consultant, I'm willing to help you out.
Thank you very much.
And we ultimately, you know, ended up making, you know, obviously make the show and ended
up having a very good relationship with those guys.
But you know, in the beginning, I think fire, you know, the firefighters were a little nervous
that we were going to make them bumbling idiots, you know, and that was never our intention.
It was always like, Hey, let's make a world, you know, very similar super troopers where
you want to hang out with those guys.
They're good at their jobs, but when they're, they have downtime as firefighters have, you
know, they're having fun, having a good time and giving each other shit.
So cousin Bill was also a fire historian.
Have I got that right?
Yeah, he's he was kind of like the local fire.
He retired last year and so he's kind of taken that on.
That's one of his jobs.
He's taken on now where he's he's kind of the official historian of the local fire department.
And you know, he's got all kinds of great stuff.
And you know, he's the kind of guy who amasses funny stories in his head, you know, firefighter
stories, which is what makes him a wealth of information for us.
And he also is a guy who was very much a stickler for, you know, authenticity.
You know, like he was always kind of like, if I'm going to be on the show, my name is
on the show as a technical consultant.
This stuff's going to you know, the guys who are sitting in the fire department on Thursday
night watching this thing together are not going to call bullshit on us.
You know, we're going to make it, you know, and whatever you have to you have to do that.
Sometimes you have to shade things, you know, sometimes.
But for the most part, you know, he was very aggressive about making sure that we, you
know, we wore our equipment properly.
We had the proper equipment and, you know, you know, and he'd make fun of us.
But you know, we'd get figure out how to get the SEBAs on and, you know.
So what is your technical training look like?
And did you use that guy who gave you the business card in the end?
No, we didn't use that guy.
Although we became friends with a lot of those guys and I think they were very happy.
We actually had a couple episodes where they came down, a bunch of the guys from the real
Tacoma firemen came down.
We had a firefighter ball episode and they were at the ball and they were extras and
they, we hung out with them for a few days there and that was fun.
And, you know, we've done some earlier in the seasons, we would do some promotional
stuff up there, which is who we've got a great, they would send us stuff to put on the walls
and things like that, like real to call it.
Here's an axe and here's a whatever, you know.
And so we would, we would do that.
So our relationship ended up being, you know, really, really great with them.
But the, you know, the technical consultant stuff that we do with Bill, you know, Bill
ended up being a guy who was always on the set with us.
And you know, our show, partly because it was low budget and partly because that was
the premise, it was like, we don't really fight fires.
You know, we don't, we do like one fire a season because that's all we can afford really.
And so it's more about hanging out at the station, you know.
So when we did have those big, you know, shoots where we gear up and, and, and, you know,
we'd fight a fire or whatever it was, you know, Bill was very adamant being there.
Here's how you do it.
Here's how you enter the building.
You know, here's how you do this.
And, you know, we would spend a lot of time on that.
But a lot of it was just like, you know, for Bill, it'd be like, hey, you know, we're on
the apparatus floor.
You know, what's on the wall?
You know, or, you know, we're driving the engine.
What's inside the engine?
Or, you know, it was, it was kind of a lot of, you know, how is the hose, you know, packed
and, you know, a lot of stuff like that.
And then it was terminology, you know, like he would get very, very, very, very, very
angry with us when we would say garage, you know, it had to be the app floor or the apparatus
floor.
You know, he'd get, he'd get angry at us when we would call superiors by their first names,
you know, as opposed to captain and chief and whatever.
So that was always kind of a fun, you know, and he was, you know, not afraid to jump in
and say that, you know, and he, he'd get in a fight with the prop guy and it's like, that's
not the proper ladder that you would have in this situation, you know, that kind of
stuff.
So yeah, we always got like a lot of enjoyment out of that, but in the, at the same time,
you know, we meet a lot of firefighters now and say, Hey, you know what, you know, I think
that is, you know, a very authentic feeling show to us.
And I think it's a credit to cousin Bill for all the years he's spent in the department
and helping us create that sense.
It is really jarring when you work and I can't imagine being a cop, how many times people
get it wrong with the FBI or something like that.
But I worked on the world trade center film with Nicolas Cage and got a few directed
it now, Oliver Stone, but I was just simply a glorified extra.
That's all I was, but I'd been in, in acting, I became a stunt man in the end, but I, we
got this, this gig and I got a whole bunch of my Anaheim firefighters onto the film,
but it was the other side.
Like we had FDNY gear down to the point, but when it was the final cut, we were just like
shadows in the background.
So the, you know, attention to detail on that point, you know, it was obviously wasted on
a lot of these shots, but when you see average firefighters in a scene, oh my God, it's just,
it's awful because they've got everything is wrong.
Everything is wrong.
Even I hate to call them out this film out because one of the guys from the film is on
the show, but there's a film, Paramedic came out recently and this woman is doing compressions
on a guy with a, with a Kevlar vest still on, you know, and it's like, did you not ask
anyone?
Did you even just watch a CPR video?
American Heart Association for something.
But yeah, so even though it's, you know, it's a comedy show by making sure all those things
were right, it keeps us, which is, I'm sure there's a lot of firefighters watch the show.
It keeps us engaged with the jokes rather than what the fuck is that on his back?
Yeah.
No, uh, you know, we had a bunch of that kind of stuff and, uh, who's the guy that does
like the green screen, um, um, who does the green screen gags where they take the scenes
from firefighter fire department chronicles, Jason.
Yeah.
Jason.
Right.
We use his coffee.
We have his coffee as a, you know, I think, but Jason, yeah.
So, um, um, but Bill was always cousin Bill was always like, I don't want to be in that
green screen thing.
Okay.
So we're going to make sure.
And then we would start making jokes about it because, you know, there'd be, there was
one firefighter show where I can't remember what it was, but like, you know, a guy gets
hit by a meteor and, uh, and they're, they're trying to revive them.
And you know, the, the joke, you get hit by a meteor, you're dead.
You know, the thing's going to go through you or whatever it is, you know?
And so, um, you know, we, we opened our, uh, our, our, uh, last season scene with a guy
getting, with a guy getting hit by a meter, but you'd find out it's a fake, you know,
a fake TV show, a firefighter TV show.
But we, we started to joke about what, you know, the firefighter shows would do and,
um, and, and then try to kind of capture that in the thing.
But you know, luckily we don't, like I said, we don't have to get super technical because
we don't do a lot of, you know, calls and fires and that kind of stuff.
You know, it's just, you know, what, what feels authentic around the station, you know,
the way we talk to each other and the, and you know, uh, what, you know, populates our
world kind of a thing, you know?
And um, but the firefighters I talked to, they're like, that is, you know, they, they
love it because that is how they feel their station is, you know?
And I mean, they're like, you know, whatever it's, it's a heightened sense of com comic,
you know, whatever.
And you know, there are some episodes of ours that are just getting, you know, very silly,
but, but for the most part, it's that sitting around, you know, having your coffee and
bragging on another guy, you know, which is what a lot of it is, you know?
Absolutely.
Well, it shows, you know, the Probie jokes, uh, the calendar episode was brilliant.
The testicle popping episode was hilarious.
So yeah, but it's, it is all, all the things that we do.
And again, the real dark side of what we do and there's, there's a huge amount of that
firehouse, you know, dark humor, um, to gallows humor.
Yeah.
That is how we offload.
And I think that's why films like yours are so popular in the fire service is just because
it allows us to just, you know, laugh and not think about anything.
Cause if you look at the psychology of laughter, it down regulates the nervous system.
That's why we laugh, even if it's a dark joke.
Yeah.
And I, and I, it's funny cause we, you know, we would try to every once in a while, you
know, like, like bill or somebody will come up with an idea where we were like, that's
a little dark, you know, like, but you try to find what the funny part of is, or at least
what the, you know, the important part of it, you know, like we did an episode on kind
of the PS, the PTSD kind of, um, thing where, you know, you know, um, you know, bill would
always talk about how when he started on the fire department, it was like, suck it up,
you know, you're a pussy, don't, you know, whatever.
And then realizing that you, that the firefighters see so much shit that you have to release,
you know, and that, um, you know, talking to people or whether it's, you know, therapy
sessions or whatever it is becomes an important part in keeping, you know, mental health for
the firefighters.
And he said, that's, you know, as I became a, you know, higher up the ranks, that became
a very important part of our lives and dealing with that issue.
And we were like, well, it's hard for us to deal with that issue because then you have
to deal with what inspires that issue.
And you know, and then you don't want to get into situations, you're making fun of it,
you know?
And, and so the trick is, Hey, how do you do the group therapy session episode without,
uh, well, delivering a positive message, um, and not getting too dark, you know, and cause
firefighters see so much dark stuff, you know, and, and, um, the other kind of great thing
about this is as the show has become more successful or more people see it, firefighters
reach out to us with stories, you know, and, um, you know, some of them are like, well,
we find this dead guy behind a dumpster and you're like, well, we can't do that.
I'm still waiting to find the joke.
Where's the joke?
And to us is hilarious.
He's traveled around his ankles.
Yeah.
And so, you know, there are all those things and you're like, um, and you, you know, this,
we found this guy, he was covered in shit and we had to do this.
And you're like, okay, we can't necessarily do that.
You know, and the funny thing is trying to figure out how to do something like that,
but not, you know, so, you know, I either there's so many dark things that firefighters
see, we just can't really tackle that world because we're trying to keep it light and
fun for people.
So speaking of that, just as a tangent for a moment, it's been bizarre the last few years
seeing the politically correct element start to put into the point where it almost squashes
out everything.
It's like the person who develops allergies and all they can end up drinking is water.
You know what I mean?
It's, it's like that.
So in the world of comedy, obviously that the parameters are exactly where you're exploring,
you know, the South parks and Daniel Tosh and some of these, you know, which I think
South Park is hilarious because the fact that they haven't been canceled when they are,
you know, literally putting pushing the balls from all areas, I think maybe that's the key.
They push all the walls.
Yeah, amazing.
But so what about that?
I mean, between the shows and the films and also your live comedy, have, yeah, has there
been a resistance?
Have you found the environment changing or have you just stayed doing what you've done
and it just keeps working?
Yeah, I think mostly we say stay where we are.
I get it.
I get it that people maybe feel that the room is shrinking a little bit or whatever.
I don't know.
I've always in the guys that we work with here in Tacoma, it's always interesting to
find how to get around those problems.
I always find that to be the fun challenge.
You know, it's like, I think, you know, there's definitely this feeling that, you know, that
maybe people maybe are over sensitive or whatever, but I feel like we've been able to navigate
that and still find all the funny things.
I think there's still plenty of funny out there and I think there's still plenty of
things that you can do.
And so, you know, I know there are a lot of writers and comics and we're kind of wring
their hands about, you know, you know, I'm being kind of restrained from doing what I
want to do.
And I guess I just never have felt that necessarily.
And you know, maybe it is another thing I think about it is that if you are generally
a good natured person, you can get away with more.
You know what I mean?
Like if you are a firebrand or and you are known for, you know, throwing those bombs
and whatever, people are going to focus on you.
And when you do it, they're going to attack you.
But like I said, our angle has always been, hey, we're nice guys and we're good guys.
And if every once in a while you throw something out there that maybe is questionable in, you
know, whether, you know, whatever it is, I think people give you some leeway or at least
that's what I found for us.
You know, I mean, there are definitely some jokes that we have made, you know, in stand
up or whatever, like, oh, boy, there's there's where we're getting canceled.
You know, it doesn't happen.
And I think part of it is because, you know, we're not mean-spirited guys, you know, so
maybe that's maybe that's a good thing.
I don't know.
Maybe that's a lesson.
Absolutely.
I did the film, like I said, I did a TV show as well, two TV shows on a history channel
portraying a pirate that looked like Brian May from Queen.
And it was such a bizarre experience because, you know, it's so steep.
Yeah, and terrible.
And add to the fact that I'm the world's worst actor as well, which is why I got in the stunts.
But but then you do the live show.
That's what I did most of the stunts with was live shows in Orlando and L.A., you know,
Bueno Park and all these areas.
Right.
We had a bunch of guys that we did that we knew who did this stuff.
Yeah.
I mean, it's a great on ramp for for a lot of things.
But there was no comparison when you do a live stunt show, a pirate show, you know,
a show in Universal, whatever it is, you immediately get that audience reaction.
But then when you're on a set, you know, especially a huge production, you know, you you do it
and then it takes an hour to reset and you do it again.
And there's no real feedback.
And I've heard a lot of people, you know, high level actors say they have no idea how
the film is going to turn out because they're not in charge of editing or anything.
So, you know, it could be amazing.
It could be terrible.
And they put the exact same performance on.
What is it that you love about the live stand up compared to what you're putting on screen?
Well, I think that's the truth is that, you know, the immediate reaction, you know, I
mean, there's nothing like that.
You know, and and it's like also the experimental kind of atmosphere to fix things.
So like if I have five shows in a weekend, I'll try a joke out the first night.
Doesn't quite work.
I can change it, see if it works, you know, eight hours later, 12 hours later.
If it doesn't work, I can change it.
I can, you know, there are great things about being able to work that you can't do that
in the TV show.
You have to do that through editing or in the movie.
You do this through editing, but the ability to do that live and to know, you know, there
are jokes that people laugh at.
You have no reason why they're laughing.
You have no understanding as to why they're laughing.
It's like, did they laugh at that joke?
OK.
And then you find those jokes that always work like that.
And those are the great things about stand up is like when you hit those moments and
you know that you have automatic reaction that you're going to get, you know, it's
much more of a much more of a crapshoot in TVs and worse in movies like TV.
At least you can you can throw a shitload of jokes at the wall.
You know, it's like we've done this all the time.
It's like, well, you know what?
If that one doesn't hit, the next one will, you know, and, you know, if that doesn't hit,
then episode two, three, four, five, whatever for a movie, it becomes very precious.
And that's why you end up, you know, test screening things and reediting them and stuff
like that.
That's the beauty of live comedy is that you don't have to have that, you know, and that's
all you can be much more topical or much more, you know, you can make fun of something that
happened yesterday.
You know, you know, a show like Tacoma will put like a topical joke in it and then the
world will not see it for a year.
And then that joke's bullshit.
You know, it doesn't it doesn't mean anything.
And you can't, you know, live comedy is so much better than that.
And so, you know, I love live comedy, but I do definitely I love make part of it.
Why I love making the TV shows and the movies is because I am in all the steps.
You know, it's like you make a TV show, an actor, you shoot it a year ago and then you
never see it.
But for me, I it's my life every day.
Right.
So I'm in the edit room every day and I'm doing this, this and this.
And yeah, as the actor, you haven't thought about it in a year, but I have been with it
the whole time and I'm crafting it and figuring out how to make it work.
And so that's still very satisfying to me, you know.
But I get it why, you know, actors and comics and stuff love love the live comedy.
And I like it, too.
I just like traveling around.
Traveling around was the biggest pain in the ass to me of doing live comedy.
And let me know I did it for 10 years, you know.
But you know, I guess I if I have my druthers, I would stick with making TV shows.
You know, I love that part of it.
You mentioned about a lot of the stories you just couldn't make into an episode just because
of the darkness or whatever.
Is there one story that you've heard either from your cousin or some other firefighter
that you wish you could but you couldn't but you can tell it here?
You know, I don't know all the ins and outs of this, but cousin Bill had a he always had
he wanted us to make a an episode about I guess an incident.
I can't remember what parade it was.
It might have been the St. Patrick's Day parade in Boston about guys going there and getting
you know, just wasted and ended up in the back of a of a police van, you know.
And he always wanted us to make like a parade episode where guys get drunk.
And part of it was like, dude, we can't make a parade episode because we can't pay for
it.
Like we can't.
You know, we don't we don't.
It's too big, you know.
But you know, there was there was that thing.
There were those kind of things, those kind of debaucherous kind of things, which we tried
to kind of keep a little of a lid on.
And then, yeah, I think the other stories were just the kind of much more traumatic
stories, you know.
And it was like, you know, the people that you found or the people you deal with or,
you know, a lot of their stories were about drug dependency or people, you know, that
kind of stuff or people were strung out on this or whatever.
And it just, you know, it just didn't fit in the in the world that we were trying to
create, you know.
So it was more of that kind of stuff.
But then there were just, you know, there were, you know, great stories that we heard
that we would put in, you know, it's like I remember we were at a firefighter event in
Austin and we were meeting with a bunch of guys, having a great time talking to guys
and hearing stories.
And one guy told us a story about when he was a rookie.
And we've talked about the story before, so you may have heard it.
And he was he was a proby and he joined the shift and all the guys had these tattoos.
And this is the guy telling us his true story.
And all these guys had these tattoos, these goofy tattoos that were representative of their
shift like, I know, the unicorn or that was, I don't know.
And they told the guy, hey, these are our shift tattoos.
You have to go get this tattoo.
And he was like, OK, so he goes and he gets the tattoo and he comes back and shows him
the tattoo and all the other guys wipe theirs off because they were temp tattoos.
And they go get this real stupid tattoo on his arm.
And we were like, oh, my God, that's a hell of a prank.
You know, that's a thing.
And so, boom, we wrote that episode and and had a great kind of a runner thing about that.
And but those are kind of those real stories which you get from these guys that are perfect.
You know, it fits fits so well, you know, and cousin Bill would tell us that these stories,
you know, it's like I think we put it in either the first or maybe the third.
I can't remember which episode we put it in, maybe the third episode.
You know, the the story about how, you know, a guy had to give mouth to mouth to a cat.
It's like they rescued a cat from a they rescued a bunch of people and the cat from a burning
building and the firefighters walk out and they're doing CPR on someone and they get
a little closer and they realize the guy's trying to revive a cat.
And we thought that was the greatest thing in the world.
We put that in that episode.
And you know, the more you talk to the firefighters, every one of them has got 100 stories, you
know, that are just hysterical.
I'm sure you have a million funny stories.
I'm a terrible storyteller, but they're in there.
I just need someone else to tell them for me.
That's what you need.
And so, you know, what we were finding is like, hey, can you make a TV show?
Yeah, yeah, we got millions.
We got a wealth of stories.
And, you know, we still have a, you know, a document that's like, you know, 40 pages
long of stories that just so funny to us, you know.
And every episode has one in them.
Well you talked about discovering this other side of our profession, you know, the, I guess
you could say the price of service.
Were you aware of that through having your cousin being in that world or was that something
that started to kind of unfold as you started talking to more and more of our profession?
Oh, it's definitely after the fact, after they unfold, you know, I mean, I think I didn't
realize, you know, how prevalent and important it was to the community now in terms of, you
know, you know, people's mental health and making sure that people are okay on the job
and that kind of stuff, you know.
It's like, you know, my cousin would tell stories about guys who committed suicide or
guys who, you know, just end up couldn't deal with it anymore.
And, you know, I don't think growing up, you heard those stories, you know, I don't think
you heard that that was the case, but I think now in a good way, I think that those stories
are out there now so that people can, you know, I mean, we're just actors, you know,
it's amazing to think that, you know, day in and day out, these guys see these things
and they see kind of the worst things and whether it's, you know, mangled bodies in
a car accident or whatever it is, you know, it's like they see the worst underbelly of
our world.
And it's going to mess with your head, you know, and I think, you know, I didn't definitely
did not appreciate that until, you know, cousin Bill kind of would bring things to light for
us and say, oh, here's what we do.
And, you know, here's how we deal with that.
And we're trying to deal with that.
And we're trying to counter the old school idea or suck it up and, you know, and, you
know, deal with it, you know, that they're trying to counter that kind of mentality now,
which I think is a great thing.
I think that's seems to me what's important.
So, you know, toss it was like, let's not make fun of that.
Let's not, you know, let's support that and, you know, maybe put like a kind of a fun or
if you can put a fun spin on something like that, then that's what you try to do, I guess.
Yeah.
But I don't know, do you find me like, do you find that that's changed in your career?
Like over the, you know, over the course of your career that the perception of that kind
of stuff has changed?
Yeah, no, it's literally.
I would say only.
I don't know if it's even nine years ago that we really started talking about it.
This is one of the reasons why I started the podcast, you know, after seeing a lot of the
dark side going to the funerals, you know, and realizing that we were just doing the
same thing over and over again.
And what's what's strange about the American Fire Service is we're so siloed, you know,
you got a city and they won't talk, which you, you know, you kind of illustrate in the
show, you know, police and fire don't like each other, city and county don't like each
other.
So there's no knowledge exchange.
So everyone's kind of keeping themselves to themselves.
Everyone's reinventing the wheel.
But what I had was unusual is I had a very gypsy view to the fire service.
I started in the Miami area.
I trained in Orlando, worked in Miami, then California for a few years, then Orange County,
which is the county that Orlando is in, and then Reedy Creek, which protects Disney World
the last five.
So it's a very, you know, 10,000 foot view on everything.
But so, you know, when my generation went in and generations before, it was all about
service and sacrifice, courage and fitness and all the things.
But then as you get into this point and they're like, wow, you know, people aren't doing well,
you know, we're so we're so beat down and tired that a lot of times it's hard for us
to even have that realization because all we're thinking about is the next call, the
next shift, you know, my kid's birthday party, whatever it is.
So really, when I transitioned out five years ago, just to do this, to really try and be
the voice for this profession and networking with people from all over the world, you realize
this is a this is a global issue.
You know, the Australian firefighters, the British firefighters, they're all going through
a lot of these.
And so now it's like now that we're talking about it, now we actually have to act and
not trying to be doom and gloom on this conversation.
But at the moment, there's a hiring crisis, too.
And I think it's because of this people are now understanding the whole picture.
And unless we change it, we aren't going to have people lining up to do this job anymore,
because even though it's the most incredible profession, which is why I advocate years
after taking the uniform off, there are some things that are really detrimental to the
the human and that person's family as well that we have to address to put it back to
this incredible profession that we all adore.
Yeah.
And it feels like it's also, you know, yeah, trying to overcome the the mindset of the
old school is a big, huge part of it.
And you know, I think, you know, just in talking to Bill and when he was a rookie, yeah, like
you said, it's in the last 10 years, you know.
And then in his thing, like from an administrative point of view, it's those issues that
dominated his last few years because the perception were changing and things were coming out much
more about how to deal with this stuff.
And I found it fascinating.
And that's kind of why we want to make an episode about it, but realize that it was
difficult to navigate for us in terms of trying to keep it light and fun and that kind of
thing.
But I don't know, hopefully we can just provide some sort of enjoyment for the firefighters
anyway, just kind of a light release for the guys.
Well question for you, I want to round off, but just one last kind of lens from you, because
you do sit in a unique place at the moment.
We have done a terrible job of storytelling what we do in this profession.
I would say only the brave, you know, obviously back draft, ladder 49 and probably about the
only ones out there that really reflect what we do.
And even someone pointed out recently, which was a very good point, even the reality television
shows that feature fire, the cardiac arrest always survives.
You know, they always get the person out the car, you know.
So again, it's kind of showing our successes only.
How do we as a profession do a better job of branding ourselves, of educating the public
on what we actually do?
Well yeah, I mean, I think, you know, and I can only speak from the kind of this, this
kind of like, I guess, lighter perspective of it.
But it kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier.
It's like, part of the nice thing about Tacoma, the TV show is showing these firefighters
as real people, you know, it's showing them not, you know, doing the call or fighting
the fire.
It's them in their lives and how they're real people who have fun and have friends and family
and that kind of stuff.
I mean, you know, I feel like, you know, that helps the perception of firefighters in general.
It's like, you know, the more we puncture the sense of like, these guys are invincible
heroes and more that they are real people.
I think it helps everybody.
And I think, you know, we try to do that in our very kind of light, you know, non-messagey
kind of way, you know.
But I think that helps the greater message in the sense that, you know, if people can
connect with firefighters as humans, you know, I think that helps everyone's perceptions
more.
It helps push the world forward, you know.
Absolutely.
I don't know.
That's just kind of my perspective, I guess.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, I appreciate everyone's perspective.
I have people that are in literally branding and business and, you know, people entertainment.
It doesn't matter.
Obviously, the way we've been doing it isn't working very well.
So I'm open to all suggestions, you know, people that might experience it.
Don't you think it's like, it is progressing, don't you think?
I mean, it's getting, it's better than it was, don't you think?
We're starting to.
The thing is, I live in an echo chamber.
So I look around and go, oh, everyone gets it.
And I forget.
That's because in the show, everyone's coming on because they've brought solutions.
But I think as long as you start, it's the same as to parallel.
It's the same with the division that we've seen forced upon the US from both sides the
last eight years.
It's the more that we can pull people back into, you know, the middle, you know, the
more of the paradigm shift that you can create.
So you're not trying to fix everyone straight away.
But if you can just grab one more department, one more firefighter and keep pushing the
improvements, then eventually there will be a tidal wave and it'll sweep over the whole
country and everyone will benefit.
No, I think that's totally true is that the more you bring people who disagree or have
opposing opinions or whatever together for, you know, the communal good.
And you know, I think that's a good thing.
It's like, you know, we've always joked about for us, even our comedy is very purple in
the sense that, you know, we have, you know, our red state fans and we have our blue state
fans, you know, and it's, you know, we have guys in uniform and we have stoners and we
put them in the same room together and everyone has a big laugh.
And I think that's a helpful thing, you know, and I think it's probably the same thing for
Tacoma.
We have, you know, fans on all spectrum of the political view, but they all can watch
the show and have a good laugh at it.
And to me, it's that those things that remind us that we can get past the divisiveness and
enjoy each other despite our differences.
Yeah.
100%.
We got way more in common than we have difference.
And the most of the differences you can celebrate anyway, because they're unique.
Yeah.
Everyone can laugh at a fart joke.
100%.
Yeah.
And even a laughing baby, how can you not smile when a baby starts laughing?
You know what I mean?
That's contagious.
So you've got four seasons on Netflix now, was True TV now all streaming on Netflix.
I'm assuming you're probably going to be creating more seasons of that.
Talk to me about what's coming as far as Tacoma and if you have anything else in the pipeline
for Broken Lizard.
I hope so.
I mean, I hope we get to make more.
You know, we made these four seasons and I think, you know, whatever, not to get in the
weeds of the industry, the company that we've worked for has been taken over four times
and we've had four hierarchy shifts.
And each time, I think, I don't know, the new person cares a little bit less about us.
So we've been kind of overcoming that, but luckily we've been doing the seasons.
And then this Netflix thing gives us a lot of good exposure.
So hopefully all that will lead to us making more Tacomas.
Because like I said, we got to stack more of firefighter stories that we want to tell.
And hopefully we'll get that opportunity.
We'll see how this Netflix thing shakes out.
And then at the same time right now, we're riding SuperTubers 3 and we hopefully, I would
imagine maybe later this year, we'll try to shoot that.
It's weird because, you know, for those who don't know, we're coming out of these strikes.
You know, the industry has been kind of, had legs chopped out by these strikes that happened
last year and we're just coming out of it in a few months.
So it's a weird landscape where people are trying to figure out what's still alive, what's
dead, what can happen, how we can move forward, how the world has changed.
But SuperTubers 3 seems to be on track for us to be able to do that.
That's kind of the next big broken lizard project.
And then, yeah, Steve and I are selling some other shows.
You know, we've been working on a couple of things.
We've been working on a military show actually, Steve and I, based on a lot of stories and
a lot of friends we've made in the military, based on, you know, guys who like our stuff.
And so we've been working on that and we've been doing this podcast, we've been doing
this companion podcast, Talkoma.
It's a video podcast we've been doing, which is on YouTube.
And I don't know, we're trying to stay busy.
You know, I'd love to make more Tacomas.
That's kind of the big thing.
Now the podcast, Talkoma, you advise people watch an episode, then listen to the podcast?
Yeah, I think so.
Yeah.
So what happened was a couple years ago after we did season two, it was COVID, it was the
pandemic and everything shut down.
And our network, True TV and TBS, they had a lot of sports that they lost.
They had basketball and, you know, they had March Madness, they had baseball and all these
things got lost.
And so, you know, we were in some meeting with some executives and they were kind of
lamenting the fact they had nothing to put on the air.
And we said, well, you know, we've been thinking about this companion show called Talkoma,
where we talk about the episode, you know, and they kind of laughed at us like it was
the dumbest thing in the world.
And then about half an hour later, they called us up and said, were you guys serious about
that?
And we said, yeah, we were very serious.
And they said, okay, let's do it.
And so after season two, we did a companion piece, you know, like they do for like Walking
Dead or whatever.
And we put it right on after the episodes and people loved it because it was like, we
would tell real stories.
We would have, you know, cousin Bill on, we would have, you know, guests on and they would
talk about the firefighter stuff.
We had we found out one of our fans was Stipe Miosic, the UFC champion, who's a firefighter
in Ohio.
We had him on and it was a fun thing.
And so we decided we would do it again at the end of the season.
And then it got a little bit derailed by the strike.
And so now we've got to back up and running again.
So it's a thing that people kind of liked in the past and we brought it back.
So it's a video podcast that people can find on YouTube.
And it's a lot of fun.
We have guests and it's a lot of me and Lemmy making fun of each other.
But yeah, so we got that.
And then, yeah, we got our movie Quasi, which is still on Hulu too.
That's still kicking around on Hulu.
If people haven't seen that, check that out.
That's a little bit of a departure.
It's a medieval period piece.
With a chiropractic twist to it.
That's right.
So yeah, I mean, we got a lot of stuff in the hopper.
We're trying to stay busy.
Brilliant.
Well, I want to throw some quick closing questions at you before I let you go, if that's okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
First one, is there a book or are there books that you love to recommend?
It can be related to our discussion today or completely unrelated.
Books that I love to recommend.
Oh my gosh.
I'm terrible.
I'm terrible at reading.
My daughters keep giving me books to read and I've been trying to do a good job at that.
They read all these fantasy books now.
But I try to get them to read the Stephen King books.
I was always a big fan of those when I was a kid.
And then we compare notes.
They think all the books that I have read were outdated.
There's better stuff these days.
But I don't know.
I used to read a lot of scripts, man.
Have you read his book on writing because I read that right before I started my second
one.
I read it long ago.
Yeah, I read it long ago.
Yeah.
But like that guy wakes up at like 5 a.m. and he writes like for six or seven hours or whatever
every single day.
And I'm like, oh my God, God, if I could do that.
Yeah, I can't.
I would have a hundred books published.
You know?
Yeah.
It took me, I don't know, a long like two years to write my first one.
And I think about the year and a half mark of writing my second.
So clearly not even King.
I end up reading just biographies.
My kids can't understand it.
Like I just read biographies of people.
Like I just finished a biography of John Bonham, you know, the drummer for Led Zeppelin called
Beast, which was awesome.
That's an amazing story.
Yeah.
And my kids are like, what do you read biographies for?
I don't know.
Maybe because I'm old.
I don't know.
How they say truth is stranger than friction a lot of times.
That's why I love this format.
You know, people's real lives are incredible.
You know, I know.
That's what we say.
It's like the stories that we get for firefighters, we couldn't possibly make them up.
You know what I mean?
The real things are just you couldn't possibly make them up.
Absolutely.
Well, we've talked about, obviously, all the films that you guys have made.
Are there films or documentaries that you love to recommend?
Yeah.
I mean, you know, I love I love a good comedy movie.
I love a good action movie, though.
I'm always a good action movie guy.
Like, let me I will joke about that, you know, you know, and you run through like the Schwarzenegger
and the Schwarzenegger resume.
We like to have a good laugh about that.
But I went to see look, you know, I don't claim to be very sophisticated, but I went
and saw Die Hard in the movie theater two weeks ago again.
And God damn, I love that movie.
So I'm a simple pleasure guy.
You know, I like I like a good action movie.
Brilliant.
What about guests?
Is there a person that you recommend to come on this show to speak to the first responders,
military and associate professionals of the world?
Yeah, I mean, well, whatever.
I know I've been talking about a lot, but cousin Bill is a guy who is a great guy to
chat with.
I mean, he has a zillion stories.
He's got, you know, a wealth of background in this world.
I think, you know, he's well versed in the issues, you know, that that the firefighters
face these days.
He's also running for office right now.
He's running for state representative in my mind.
Really?
Yeah.
So he's going to get a bigger voice.
But he's a great guy, you know, to to chat with about these things, I think.
And then, you know, we had Stipe on.
I don't know if you've ever met Stipe before, but he's such an amazing story.
You know, we had him on our podcast.
And here's a guy who's the UFC heavyweight champion of the world.
And yet he's, you know, scrubbing toilets as a probie, you know, and in the fire department.
And you know, he has great stories about, you know, they made him wear his heavyweight
belt while he scrubbed toilets.
And I don't know, I just the marrying of those two worlds was just great.
And it inspired us to write an episode where Stipe comes to visit our station.
And we shot that in the second season and or the third season.
And that was a blast.
He's a great guy to have on as a guest.
Yeah, I've tried, sadly.
Yeah, a lot of these people, there's the person between you and them.
I haven't had very much, I'm just gonna leave it there.
I haven't had very much.
And it was like over a three year period this happened.
So Stipe, if you're listening, if you yourself want to come on, the invitation is there.
But sadly, I tried and tried and tried.
But yeah, I mean, I love I'm a martial artist myself.
So I watched him, you know, go all the way at the ladder.
And he's amazing.
And I can see the video of him scrubbing the toilets and the humility it takes to be at
an absolute pinnacle on one thing and have the humility to be a pro be in another area
where you're actually, you know, service.
I think he's phenomenal.
So yeah, maybe one day he was just a charming nice fellow.
We had a one instant where he we were shooting a scene where he punches Gabe Hogan who plays
the firefighter I crystal and he punches him.
And whatever we had set it up so he wouldn't really punch him, you know, the fake punch
and whatever.
And we're shooting the scene and he goes to swing at Gabe and he caught him and Gabe goes
down, you know, because Stipe's hands are like the size of my head.
Like when you see them, you know, and he just caught him with a finger like across the face
or whatever.
And and Gabe went down like a ton of bricks and Steve was like, oh, my God, and we have
it on camera.
Oh, my God.
I hit him.
I'm so sorry.
I hit him.
And he felt so terrible.
It was fine, but it was like this moment of like, oh, my God, his life flashed in for
him in front of his eyes as Stipe's fist is coming at him and grazes his face.
That was great.
That was a great moment.
It was fun.
It's fun to have Stipe.
I'll see.
I mean, I got, you know, I don't know.
I don't know what kind of ends I had with Stipe anymore.
I'll put in a good word for him.
That'd be great.
Like I said, the invitation has been there for a long time.
But yeah, I know, I know the initial time he was working with someone doing who they
were doing all this professional stuff.
And I know they parted ways and there was an issue with lack of communication.
So he may never have heard the invitation himself.
So yes, that would be phenomenal if you were able to help.
Thank you.
OK, OK.
See what I can do.
Brilliant.
All right.
Well, then the last question before we make sure everyone knows where to find you.
What do you do to decompress when you're not on stage and doing all these films and shows?
It's funny.
I've just had this argument with my kids.
My kids are they they range from like age 15 to 20 right now.
And they've asked me that question because they because I don't know.
I just work, you know, like over the last few days, I go work like we went to the East
Coast for for the holidays and they went skiing and stuff.
And while they went skiing, I would sit in the lounge or whatever at home and I would
just be working and editing and whatever.
So but I don't know.
I just I like to hang out with my family.
You know, that's probably the biggest thing.
You know, we watch movies or we go, you know, whatever, hiking and that kind of stuff.
You know, it's like, you know, whatever time I could spend with the family, that's really
my decompression time.
You know, I love to watch movies and TV, but then sometimes I feel like I'm doing it because
of work.
You know, like I feel like I'm researching or whatever it is.
And so, you know, sometimes it doesn't quite work out.
But yeah, just hanging out with the family is really my decompression time.
Beautiful.
Well, the entire, you know, four series now are in Netflix.
So that's where they can find Tacoma FD.
Where are the best places for people to find all your other work and reach out to you,
whether it's social media or anywhere near the area?
Yeah, I mean, yeah, Netflix, you can just stream like crazy if you want.
That's great.
And then, yeah, our latest movies on Hulu, Quasi.
That's a broken lizard movie about Quasimodo.
And then I think all the other ones are, you know, on the on the basic streamers and stuff,
Super Troopers and Beer Fest and Club Dread.
And people can check that stuff out.
Slammin' Salmon, another movie we made.
And then for me, I'm at Heffernan Rules.
I think on pretty much everything.
Heffernan Rules on Twitter, Heffernan Rules on Instagram.
You know, we have Lemmy Heffernan as our YouTube page.
But I think those are, you know, those are the handles that people can hit me on.
I'm not a great social media guy.
Are you a good social media guy?
I repost a lot of videos of either first responder stuff or kindness and compassion.
I try and put a lot of the good stuff out there.
Me personally, I don't look at social media apart from to find those videos.
So I would say, you know, outwardly, yes, but inwardly, no, because I'm fully aware
of how those things could just suck you in.
So I try and leave my phone as far away from me as I can.
I feel like I could be better at whatever.
But sometimes we get some people to help us out with that shit.
Some young kid who knows what he's doing.
Yeah, exactly.
He understands the algorithms and content and all those other words that I have no idea
what they mean.
Well, Kevin, I want to thank you so much, firstly, for, you know, just just coming on
full stop.
But secondly, again, for this unique perspective that you have.
I mean, to do the comedy film when it came to law enforcement and now you're doing the
show coming from the firefighter perspective.
These are all, as I said, firehouse favorites hands down.
I'm sure it's the same with law enforcement.
But they are, as you said, also humanizing the men and women in uniform because we do
get we do become a little two dimensional only to the public, but to ourselves as well.
So I want to thank you so much not only for your work and what you've done for our professions,
but also for coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
Thanks, Ben.
I mean, that's great.
And congratulations on getting that message out.
You know, I think that's an important message that you're doing there.
So but thank you.
I mean, you know, we like to think of ourselves as court jesters.
So you know, we just kind of try to make people laugh.
You know, so thanks for having me on.