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Welcome guys to the Behind the Shield podcast.
My name is James Gearing and this is episode 155.
And it was an absolute honor last week to go and visit Ernest Emerson,
who's been on the show, and then sit down with Hoise Gracie in his gym in LA.
I wanted to make this interview different than some of the ones that have been put out before.
I'm sure that most people listening to this are aware of Hoise's early career in the UFC,
of his family creating the UFC, of the explosion of Jiu Jitsu, you know, ultimately from the Gracie family.
So I wanted to kind of again explore the space between the lines.
So we delve into bullying and what is bullying?
Firearms striking within Jiu Jitsu, the competition element of Jiu Jitsu.
And then most importantly, how that applies to us, the first responders and the soldiers of the world.
So an amazing conversation.
He's so nice, so humble and was just a wealth of information and was so gracious to give me an hour of his time face to face in LA.
So that being said, as I always say, please go to your podcast app, rate the show, leave feedback.
I love to hear feedback from you guys.
And then most importantly, share these episodes.
These incredible men and women take an hour, two hours of their time to sit down and share their knowledge.
And my only goal of this podcast is to get all these great episodes to the ear holes of every single person who needs to hear it around the world.
So with that being said, I introduce to you Hois Gracie. Enjoy.
All right, so we are here in Ernest Emerson's Knife Factory and I'm sitting across from Hois Gracie.
So firstly, I want to say, and that's the sound of the machinery sometimes you hear on the back.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, if you hear weird noises, that's that.
As far as rank, what is the appropriate, I heard people refer to you as master.
Hois.
Hois, okay. I just want to make sure I'm being respectful.
So just before we start with the questioning, what I don't want to do today is ask the same questions that I've heard you get asked a lot.
Tell me about the UFC. What was it like fighting three men?
I'd love to explore more of the law enforcement military sport versus combat, that kind of thing.
But that being said, one of the fascinating things to me is the birth of Jiu Jitsu, especially with your father not being born a big, strong, burly man and his road there.
So could you just give me some just a kind of cliff notes of the introduction of how the Gracie family even got introduced to Jiu Jitsu?
My father was very small, weak. I mean, I relate to him a lot.
If you put me in the gym, I'm not, I cannot, I don't have that much strength.
Lifting weight strength wise, I don't consider myself strong.
But if we roll, you're going to say, oh my God, you're so fast, you're so strong.
And that's comments that people made about my father even late in his life.
And the people that met him and had a chance to train with him, comments that people would make was, wow, this nine year old man is so strong, so fast.
How can a nine year old man be strong or fast?
He couldn't do a push up. So he was not strong.
He could not outrun a two year old. That means he was not fast.
What he had was perfect leverage. That made him stronger.
He had perfect timing. That made him fast.
So he grew up with Jiu Jitsu totally changed his life.
He was a small, he was such a small stature person.
He was the little guy that sits on the eight man rowing boat.
He's the little guy that sits there timing and making the pace for the rowers, for the big guys, for the big guys that rowing the boat.
So that was my father until Jiu Jitsu gave him all the power, confidence.
I'm sorry to interrupt. Was he being so small?
Because I know this is something that you have brought such value to now, but was he even at that age, was he bullied because he was small?
Was there any of that element of it or was he just small but not really having any reason to defend himself at that point?
Okay, it's the bullying part. We got to describe what's bullying.
I just had a kid the other day came up to me in my class about 12, 13 years old and said, hey, I'm getting bullied at school.
Do you have anything for that? During the seminar, I look at him, I was like, what do you mean you're getting bullied at school?
Well, the kids play rough and well, that's how big boys play.
People play rough and I walked by him and I bumped shows with him and they bumped shows and he's like, yeah.
I said, well, that's not bullying. Sorry, definition of bullying is three of them jump on you and beat you up.
Yes, but because they're talking bad about you, I told him, dude, either you walk away, they play rough.
What they do? They give you a wedgie. Adults do that to each other.
They're like big kids. In a firehouse, we definitely do.
So it's like they play rough. You don't like it. Walk away. Simple as that.
Like on the social media, I don't like it because on the group, everybody, leave the group.
Well, but I like them as a friend. They're not your friends.
Or I told him, play rough back to them. They respect you if you play rough.
You see, bullies, they beat you up and they force you to do things. They're not beating you up.
They just play rough. They pass by and they push each other. We do that as an adult all the time.
You see. So, I mean, I told him, it's like, well, but they talk bad. They call me names.
But you want to be with them, but they call you names.
But you're so respectful that you don't want to call names back.
I said, add your mama in there. He's like, what do you mean?
I said, well, you're ugly. Your mama is ugly.
Yeah. I think wherever you've been, oh, just got back from your mom's house.
It's always a good response.
It's like, add whatever they tell you, you just add your mama in there.
I started laughing. He's like, I like that.
So, I mean, if my father was bullied, I don't know, because he had older brothers with him the whole time.
Four older brothers. So, I assume they all stick together.
So, your uncle was the one initially that learned from the Japanese businessman, is that right?
Yes. The Japanese general was doing, my father was doing business in Brazil with my grandfather.
And in exchange of good faith, he taught my uncles the art of Jitsu.
My father wasn't able to jump in and learn right away because he was too weak.
So, he sat down, watched my uncles learn and later on start teaching.
And he just memorized on his mind, he developed an easier way for him to do it.
He didn't invent a new art. He just modified a couple of steps, made it easier.
So, one day my uncle was late for a class. My father stepped in, told the student,
hey, I'm not an instructor, but I can review the moves with you.
And as he taught the student a class, the student liked it so much that by the time my uncle got back and said,
hey, I will replace Soya, I was late, I will replace the class.
The student said, no, no, no, I don't mind. From now on, I would like the class from Elio Gracie.
And that's how my uncle was like, whoa, what did you do? What did you show him?
Yeah, and it was probably seeing, like you said, such a small statue of man still, you know,
able to pull off the same things that the bigger men in the class were.
Using leverage.
Yeah. Yeah.
Not relying on strength and speed, but leverage and technique.
Yeah. And it was, you know, obviously we're going to talk about the journey here,
but I'm, as you know, we're sitting across from each other.
I'm not a big man either, you know, and I've trained all my life to get as strong as I can for my work, being a fireman.
But when we were younger, you heard like Wing Chun, it was invented by a small woman, and that's the smaller man's art.
But I think that Jiu-Jitsu was really the first time that you saw genuinely that it wasn't down to size anymore, you know,
because boxing, yeah, I mean, it's great, but a bigger boxer is still going to knock out a smaller boxer.
But watching you in the UFC, you know, definitely redefined that.
Because nobody ever put it to the test in boxing.
They say, well, the lightweight boxer, he's the most complete, he's fast, he has his doings, his better technique.
The heavyweight only got power.
So, but they never put it to the test with no time limit, no weight vision, no gloves.
And that's what we did.
It was more like a quest that my family had.
Yeah. So, so you were one of seven boys, is that right?
Yeah. So I read that your dad didn't force you to do Jiu-Jitsu, like when you organically were ready that you started training, is that right?
We go to the academy more like play.
We go play, go hang out. You don't have to do it.
Just hang out, put the gear on, just run around.
So we get used to it, we get comfortable.
Like being over here at the knife factory, Emerson's knife factory, it's just the kid grow up seeing the knives,
how the, imagine a little kid running around, for him becomes so natural.
So, yeah, I know how to make a knife.
He doesn't even know how.
Yeah.
I mean, he doesn't know how did he learn.
Yeah. It's just organically absorbed.
It's there. It's the same thing with us. We grew up on the mat.
So, and growing up on the mat is before we know, we know Jiu-Jitsu.
How? Don't even know.
Right. And at that time, you know, had you, what's the right way of saying it?
But before, when you weren't doing Jiu-Jitsu, what was your journey like?
I mean, like you said, you're organically doing it.
But when you kind of had that moment where you're like, OK, now I'm actually focused on this.
I'm going to the dojo to learn.
You know, what was that journey like for you?
I was about 14, 15 years old.
That's when my father said, hey, start with like with 14 years old.
You start to, OK, can you cover this class?
Teach a class. Can you?
You need to teach a class. You need to.
Can you cover for us?
So it started like this.
OK, so yeah. So so you guys, again, weren't being groomed as fighters.
No, my father didn't teach us how to fight.
He taught us how to teach fighting was just on the side.
It's like, please, let me do it. Let me do it. Please. I want to do it.
Family did. I want to do it.
You're not made for this.
Reverse psychology. What?
What do you mean I wasn't made for this?
I'll show you.
Let your other brothers do it. What?
Yeah.
So so how? Because I know this has been discussed and I've heard people talk about it.
And I'm sure you've been asked a thousand times.
I apologize. But of the seven, what was the underlying reason that you ended up being that person representing the Gracie family in the UFC?
The other brothers and cousins would have done the same thing.
But let's say, I don't know, I never asked my father, but I'm assuming because of looks.
No, I'm just kidding.
They're smoking hot.
I think some of the brothers, my cousins, were more aggressive.
More already had tons of fighting the street and being too aggressive sometimes would not show the technique.
My father, the Horde wants to show.
Some were too light, some were too heavy.
So put a cousin or brother to fight somebody 220 while he weighed 195.
It's like, it's very close weight. So it won't show the technique.
And being aggressive, you might take the guy down and just beat him up instead use the clean technique.
So I would say a combination of peaceful being control with listen to him, to my father, to Horde.
Being on the right weight at the right time, 178, not too big, not too small.
So combination of all.
Okay. Yeah. So that was a very good strategy. So you were strong enough to deal with the big guys, but not so strong that you could overpower them instead of use Jiu-Jitsu.
The few Zik of 200 pounds fighting the 210 pounds. It's like, it wouldn't be as impressive.
Yeah. Well, it was certainly impressive.
And what about because I've always observed this, I haven't heard you talk about this in interviews that I've heard, but you have this Jiu-Jitsu technique.
Obviously, you're a phenomenal athlete, but the resilience to get in here, the times that you were hit and fighting through the power of some of these big, big men, where did you get that resiliency from?
Actually, I didn't get that many hits, man. You count on your hands how many times I got hit.
Oh, that's poor isn't it? But even so, I mean.
It wasn't that many hits. I don't like to get hit. People ask me all the time, it's like, hey, dude, learn. Did you learn how to get hit? No, I don't like to get hit. I don't want to learn how to get hit.
So it's just committing to the technique and the takedown or whatever it is and not thinking about.
Good notion of distance for that, not to get hit. I mean, on the way in, control the opponent in such a way, always know where his hands are.
So don't leave a hand free to take a hit. So I'm not concerned about beating him up and he hitting me back. No, more about controlling the opponent.
Subdue him when time is right. If I have a chance, I'll hit it.
Now, had you fought different quote unquote styles before that specific event?
Because I'm assuming in your world, you were fighting with a lot of people that were also doing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and your family.
So the training was done with the students. So on the first UFC, there was no we didn't know who we were going to fight until two days before a day before.
So I had to get some big guys because I might end up fighting the rest of sparring with the big guys, sparring with the kung fu guys, sparring with the kickboxers, the judo guys, the wrestler,
sparring with the students that I had at the time. Have you done any martial arts? Oh, yeah, I've done kickboxing.
Okay, put the gloves on, suit up, let's go and use the guys. You see, so it was pretty much the students helped me out.
How many sumo wrestlers did you have in your gym?
Not many.
That must have been a hard one to prepare for.
Not many.
All right, well then, so I really want to explore the work that you guys, the changes that you've made in the military and law enforcement.
So after the UFC and the success, I know some of the military units reached out to you.
What, you know, we're not not putting down what they were doing at the time, but what were some of the things that that they were focusing on in their their combatives at the time?
And what did you bring to the table?
I think to focus more on like an old style of stand up karate, martial art in general.
So all of the service were doing that.
But then they realized, hey, there's more than that.
And sometimes it's not just one punch, knock the guy out. Sometimes we've got to grab, we've got to take him down. We've got to like the cops, we've got to arrest him.
We can't be punching him or shooting him and punch him in the face, knock his teeth out.
Now he's sues the department. So it's we've got to arrest him.
It's our job. Put the hands on, not just block a punch and punch right back or kick.
So they realized that by seeing the UFC.
There is more than just stand up.
Yeah. And then with the areas of the weapons, too, with did the Jiu Jitsu allow more weapon, excuse me, weapon retention and focusing on that as well?
Because because you think about that. And I want to talk about Tim Kennedy a little bit in the training I did with him.
You don't think about that. You know, you're tussling with someone all of a sudden, you realize that you've got a weapon that they could kill you with strapped to your body.
Yes, you bring the toys to the fight. Yeah, exactly.
And they use they try to go for. So, yes, that's something that Horton and I adapt, modified a little bit for law enforcement.
Yes. Right. And then another thing I heard you talking about with the military side is just that confidence. And that makes perfect sense to me.
I think the discussion you have with Ernest, I believe it was most of the time a soldier is going to be using his weapon, his rifle, his or her, excuse me.
But knowing that if that's taken away, that you still have that next set of ability gives you the confidence to use that that rifle without the fear of losing it.
But there was at the time was Colonel McChrystal that told me, hey, my soldiers will never use it.
I was teaching the Army Rangers. I was like, so why did you hire me?
He said because I want you to give them enough confidence that if they drop down all their weapons, they can go across any field and beat anybody with their hands.
But they will never get this close to do it. I was like, fair enough. But that was the old style war.
So at the time he was Colonel, I was general, retired general.
General McChrystal.
Yeah. So but but that was the old style. But now it's like more of a hand to hand. The whole war thing changed for the soldiers.
They got to put their hands on. And a lot of the times they are having to arrest the suspects to interrogate, to ask questions, to move them.
So it's hands on a lot. It changed. Instead, just come in and shoot from far away.
Yeah. And I see that even with with the law enforcement, even civilians, obviously, we're in America.
I'm from England originally, so we don't walk around with guns on us.
But here, you know, the chances of someone being armed. I mean, it's so easy.
You just go in, you know, you get a license and that's it.
What I've noticed in some of the people in the States is that's their go to thing.
So they don't exercise. They don't do any martial arts and they only own a gun.
And and what's kind of scary is that that means then that's your only go to.
So if we get into an altercation, all I know is to pull out my gun.
Obviously, as you were saying, nine times out of ten, nine nine point nine times out of ten, that's not going to be appropriate.
It's again. OK. Most likely, people don't walk around with a gun.
People that I know, most of them keep their guns at home.
Most of like myself is I'm a fan. I'm a fan of weapons.
I just like all the weapons, bow, knife. You see, I just like all of them.
So it's not like I'm going to get a 50 gallon walking down the street.
The scary thing is in Florida, you can't.
It's not open carry, but it's concealed.
And I know it's when I when I reviewed the rules here, obviously it's very different in California.
There's no concealed, I don't believe.
But in Florida, it's amazing how many people are walking around with a gun.
Yeah. But yeah, if they have to know how to use, when to use majority of the people, I think, have to take a class.
The states require you to have a concealed carry.
You have to take a class and when to use and how to use it.
And. But knives will do more damage and kill more people than guns.
Yeah, we have a big epidemic in London.
And the moment you each one, because they know nobody have a gun or even the cops.
Now the cops are starting to carry some this special police in London, England.
Now they carry the weapon, but but they'll not too long ago.
Even the cops had it and the guy pull out the knife and start to cut people's head off in the city and nobody did a thing about it.
I think there was a soldier that was a soldier to to I think from some some part in northern Africa.
But yeah, they were basically they got a soldier.
It was like two or three of them.
They got a soldier got a hold of a soldier in the broad daylight, cut his head off.
Nobody step in to do a thing.
They only had knives and the whole crowd stood there in shock.
Or France that the guy was walking down the street shooting people.
And even if you had a gun and you shot to the air, they wouldn't have the freedom to go ahead and.
And shoot this walking down, killing people as well.
You didn't even have to shoot at those guys, the terrorists.
I'm sure then just shoot it to the air if you had a gun, but again, nobody have a weapon.
Sorry. And they know that there's nothing you can do about it.
No, and they're one of the forget.
I'm blanking on the name, but the big arena or or ballroom that the two of the terrorists were in, there was about a thousand people in there.
And the one of the interviews of them, the lady was heartbroken because she realized there was two or three terrorists and hundreds of us in this building.
If we had just rushed them, maybe a few of us would have been hurt or killed, but we would have saved all those people that they slaughtered in the process.
Yep. But I already put myself in the situation.
I was in Spain a couple of years ago with my son and my daughter nighttime.
And there was some kind of festivity going on on the beach.
And I look at my son, there's loads of people.
And I was like, man, what if somebody pulls a gun and starts shooting the crowd random?
We can be stepping over people or be stepped over by people because the crowd is going to disperse, going to run off different directions.
What would you do? I asked him, you look at me.
He asked, what would you do that? He asked me back.
I said, I'll tell you, I'll tell you to grab your little sister, run inside the restaurant, get her in there, and I'm going to run to the bullet.
Save the last one is mine.
The last one give it to me. It's my bullet. I'm going to run to the bullet.
He's like, dad, I'll put the sister inside the restaurant under a table and I'll run right after you.
That's the mentality. And that's the mentality of a lot of people listening.
It's not run away. The guy pull out a gun, start shooting.
Hey, I had a good life. I'm good to go. Hope to hang around long enough to see my kids grow.
But go right after the bullet. Once I put the little girl in a safe spot, give me that last bullet. It's mine.
I've been uninterested in journey because I grew up in England. I was very opposed to guns initially.
And I had guns growing up on a farm, but the armory that I saw some of my American friends accruing whilst not exercising and not doing martial arts.
But then it was actually Tim Kennedy, the UFC fighter and ranger.
And he kind of reprogrammed the way because he's like, what if, like we said, what if you are parked outside the school and you see the guy walking towards your child's school and you're unarmed?
If you have a position to protect other people, that changed it with me.
It wasn't about me thinking that I'm terrified the world and everyone's trying to murder me.
It's what if you could stop some of these horrible tragedies just by having extension of your body, which is the firearm?
If I can, if I have the firearm, yes. But even if I don't have it, I'm going to sacrifice.
I'm going to go right through. He'll miss.
He'll be like, holy shit, it's crazy. You know, just freeze for a second.
Even if it's not a gun, if it's a knife, the amount of damage somebody can do with a knife in Israel, they're having a big problem because they just come in and just surprise, start to stab people.
It's like out of nowhere, random. It's not like they're targeting somebody.
But the Israelis are sending me views like, look at this, man.
You can be relaxed in the mall. That pass by you and just stab you out of surprise. It's like out of nowhere.
In Australia, I happened to have one of the students from one of the schools I was teaching.
The guy walking down the street, pushing a stroller with a woman next to him.
Bumped shoulders with a student. Crowd at 8 o'clock at night. Crowd of street. Just bumped shoulders.
The student turned around. The guy let go of the stroller and had a razor blade on his finger and just cut his face. 37 stitches across his face.
While the student dropped, the guy grabbed the stroller and walked away.
There was no cameras. Everybody pay attention of the man bleeding on the floor.
So the suspect just grabbed the stroller and walked away. Disappeared. Never found him.
Did he have anyone that he suspected was against him? Or was it just random?
No, it was just random. Busy street, just passing by. The guy was pushing the stroller.
They bumped shoulders. One of those, whoa, what are you looking at? What are you looking at?
And the guy just had a razor, pushing the stroller with a razor blade between his fingers.
He was on the intention of doing something. You see, you don't walk down the street pushing the stroller with a razor blade between your fingers.
The guy never saw. What happened is he took a slap to the face.
Cut his face and just grabbed the stroller and walked away. Unbelievable, the world that we live in.
Will you talk about the armed police? I had a friend of mine who's one of the armed policemen in London.
And he said just the other day someone came up to one of the other police officers, just asked them the time.
When he looked down at his watch, he stabbed him in the neck. Luckily, the police officer survived.
Well, again, unprovoked, just purely targeted. There is crazy people out there.
Let's live in a peaceful world. I understand. I want to find that world.
But in the meantime, be ready. There's nothing wrong with being ready. These people say the same thing about martial arts.
Why am I going to learn martial arts? I don't want to beat up anybody. No, you're not going to learn to beat up.
You're going to learn to defend yourself. That's what we tell people. We don't teach people how to punch somebody, how to choke people out.
No, we teach people how to defend themselves. My father never taught me how to fight. He taught me how to teach the art of Jiu-Jitsu,
not how to fight and go pick a fight. I never had a fight in the street. Never walked away from one.
But same thing, why would you have a gun? Why would you have a knife or any kind of weapon?
I mean, I do because I just love, fascinated by them, by the weapons, by it. But people do because it's their home security.
It's a way to stop something like Tim Kennedy said, something happening at the school.
And it happened in Brazil. There's a video of a woman in Brazil, a bunch of mothers and fathers waiting at the door of the school.
The guy comes in, had a gun, and he was going to rob the mothers in the front of the school. A bunch of kids. Kids just coming out.
There was a female officer off duty, pull out her gun and shoot the guy right down the spot. People are like, oh my God, she's so violent.
What? No, no. She's so violent. He was just a being pulled off a gun. He was going to rob the people.
And who knows what else he's going to do if he's going to just start shooting people. Yeah.
And that's the thing you don't. Once you pull that weapon out, you've sealed your own fate. So she pulled out and shot him.
I don't know if he killed or not, but shot him, put him on the ground and waited.
Yeah. Well, I want to transition to something that I've observed and I think a lot of people have asked to talk about this too.
I put some social media stuff, bringing some questions to this too. Sport Jiu-Jitsu versus self-defense.
You see the sport side. I did, and I've heard you talk about Taekwondo. I did Taekwondo.
I won all these plastic trophies, but then I train with someone like Tim Kennedy and we're using the weapons and he's showing the real world application.
He's covering my mouth and nose and he's saying I could dig my thumbs in your eyes.
You realize if I have that sport Jiu-Jitsu mentality only in the real world, I'm going to put myself in some bad situations.
So what's your input on when we're going to a school, what we should be looking for and thinking about?
Martial arts in general was not made to score a point. Simple as that.
Give me one martial art that was made. Taekwondo was to defend yourself in the street fight.
Kung Fu, same thing, to defend yourself in the street fight. Judo, wrestling, they were fighting hard.
They were martial arts not to score a point. So most martial arts today, all of them got ruined by competition, by point system.
I understand for kids, yes, you let the kids do the little competition, but once they become a school, a competition school, they revolve on scoring points.
There's no points on the street. There's no time limit. There's no weight division.
So most people that learn martial art, they learn martial art because they want to learn self-defense because either something happened to them
or they saw something happen to somebody or maybe they saw in a movie and that stays way in the back of their head.
And they think, oh man, what if it was me? What would I do? You know what? I'm going to go learn Taekwondo.
And then the guys teaching him how to score points, it's like not how to defend themselves. It's like, he came over here for that.
It's easy to get pulled in because like I said, I did very well in Taekwondo.
And as we were talking before we started recording, and then I started boxing and got my ass handed to me.
And I started Muay Thai and I got my ass handed to me again.
So just that shiny trophy didn't mean anything as soon as those rules were taken away and people were allowed to do more and more and more.
And then I ended up training with Shootbox. They had a gym in LA a few years ago just for a short amount of time.
But that was Jiu Jitsu as well then. And each of those times you just humbled.
And I think understanding, like you said, why am I really here? I think it really does steer people to Jiu Jitsu.
It's, I mean, most martial, I mean, all martial arts may forget which one is better than the other.
It's for you to defend yourself in the street fight situation, not to score a point.
So same thing with Jiu Jitsu. But people just don't know it became most schools today teach how to score a point
and prepare you to compete in a tournament with time limit and weight divisions and all kinds of regulations and point systems.
And well, that's not what my father created. My father did not create, did not teach the point system.
It was a self-defense style.
So I have some other people asking about their journey into Jiu Jitsu.
So what you see this, this attrition rate, obviously you get a whole load of white belts and then less blue belts and less purple belts.
What are some of the biggest mistakes that people make when they first start training Jiu Jitsu?
And I just got my blue belt. I can genuinely consider myself a white belt still because my training was very intermittent.
But what are some of the reasons you see the white to blue people, the mistakes they make and then why they stop?
Because it takes a long time. So people want to get a black belt in two years, not in Jiu Jitsu, sorry.
It doesn't happen. So it discourages a lot of people because they think that a belt will make them better.
Instead, just learn the art.
It's like I can go learn boxing in 10 classes. I'll know everything about boxing.
Did that make me a professional boxer? No. Why not? Because my time is going to be off.
My power is going to be off. And you see, so, but I know everything.
So people want fast reward. So that's the main reason I think why people quit Jiu Jitsu.
Second one, I think it will be, there's always going to be somebody that's better than you out there on the mat.
So it's a humble pie. Sometimes people don't like that. It's like, ah, he beat me. I don't want to go back anymore.
Hey, he only makes you better. Yeah. I mean, there's this, I've seen it now in a couple of schools that I trained that you can't have an ego.
I mean, you might be a big fish in a small pond, but I'm the kind of guy that tries to seek out the higher belts because I know I'm going to get tapped again and again and again.
But, you know, that's how, in my opinion, that's how I learn. Obviously rolling with my equivalence as well.
But I want to be challenged because out there I'm 170 pounds. I'm built like a stick insect.
It's very unlikely that I'm going to have someone smaller than me if it comes to that.
So it's good. I mean, a lot of people don't like that. They just want to win, win, win. We live in a little journey world.
Everybody's a winner. It's like, ah, not really. That's how I tell people. You have to know how to lose.
To become the champion. You can't just win and know. You got to know how to lose.
Yeah. Well, my little boy has been training for, I think it's five years now since he was six. He's 11 now.
And again, I have so much admiration for their dojo because the same thing, he's a they've got those like child belts.
He's orange and white, but they won't have a blue belt even until they get to the adult age.
And I really, really love that because you see that, you know, you've got a six year old black belt.
You cannot be a black belt in Jiu Jitsu until you're 18. So, yeah.
I just think that's great. But watching my son come through the martial arts and watching the kids that have stuck around
and some of the ones that were older when he started are now teaching the class and they're respectful and they're in shape.
People say, you know, what's a good way to help with the parenting?
And I've always said, I've always said martial arts, but more recently now I would say Jiu Jitsu specifically.
I would say sports in general teach the kids discipline in general.
Soccer, you practice start at such a time.
Sometimes the kids are out of control, don't have the control of that because the parents are driving them,
but they stay on top of the parents. Hey, I got to go. We got to go.
They have to show up with a uniform. They have disease.
So, sports in general teach the kids discipline. Jiu Jitsu is a little more hand to hand.
That whole bullying goes away because it's a rough play. We learn how to play rough. It's okay to play rough.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think, again, like we're talking about with the soldiers, that confidence as these kids understand
that they can get thrown away and not get hurt, thrown around and not get hurt, they know how to deal with being grabbed.
Then I think it ends up being a bigger deterrent for them lashing out and then they exude more confidence,
which I think then dissuades some of the maybe potential bullies.
It's, yeah, it's overall, that's the main thing, discipline and confidence, not teaching the martial art, the art itself.
It comes later, comes with time. But on the beginning, that's what we try to teach the students.
In a very hidden way, in a very hidden, we don't tell them that's what we teach, but that's in a very hidden, as they learn the style, they get confidence.
You see? Yeah. Yeah. It's like I said, I've witnessed it and it's incredible.
Even myself, I got into the martial arts kind of late. I think I was 15 or 16. But I went from...
Oh, dude, you're old, man. Yeah, I know. I know. And then I told you, I basically fumbled my way through all the martial arts.
I should have just stuck with jiu-jitsu and maybe some Muay Thai at the beginning.
I would have saved myself a lot of humble pie. But it's incredible to see.
Now, it seems like what you guys call the Gracie lifestyle. So I'd love to explore that a bit.
I know you don't have a diet or anything like that. It's more the overall philosophy. So could you expand on that a little bit?
It's... I mean, we call it Gracie diet. But it's not really a diet. It's more of an eating habits.
We eat everything. We just combine the food towards the easy digestion.
So we don't eat pork. We don't eat the C.I. I don't drink, don't smoke, never did.
Don't eat spicy food. But we can eat everything. We just combine towards the easy digestion. We believe that all the sickness comes from...
I mean, the body's been working out hard and working hard and stressed with everyday life.
And then you eat some heavy food to digest. It sucks all your energy out. That's when you get sick.
And then you blame the weather. You blame everything else besides the food. The air conditioning was on. It's like, what?
Yeah, we see that so much.
The air conditioning was off. It was hot outside. It was cold outside.
You gave me a cold. That's a big one.
It's like, really? People in Alaska would have been sick 365 days a year.
Exactly.
And the people in Miami would have been sick because it's still hot.
But now it's because of the food that they eat. But they don't look at that. They look at everything else besides the food.
Now, speaking of food, you didn't really cut weight for fights either. You just fought the weight that you were at, pretty much.
Walk around 178, fought in 178.
And what's your view on cutting?
Today I'm about 180.
But you're retired now.
I'm not retired yet.
But what's your view on cutting and all those rules in combat sports?
I understand. I don't agree with it.
I understand that if you weigh 180 and you drop down and fight a 155, you have the strength of 180, fighting a lightweight.
But then they're both doing that.
So they're both fighting a 180, hitting like a 180, the 155 division.
It's like, I don't agree with it because it was on the street.
What are you going to do?
Wait there. I'm going to go cut weight. I'll be back.
Hold on. How much do you weigh?
Excuse me. Can we come back next week? I got to cut weight. I got to get in shape.
You got to be ready all the time. That's why I don't drink, don't smoke.
Never know. So you got to be ready.
It's not like I'm paranoid. No, I'm not.
But I'm aware of walking into a place and I'll look everybody in the eyes and I'll see who could it be a possible threat and looking at me strange.
So, yep, it's self-defense.
That's what Tim Kennedy does in his classes too.
I mean, he's probably one of the most dangerous people on the planet when you put a weapon in his hand as well.
And he's there in Walmart surveying.
And he's used to being in these true war zones.
But again, he says, I'm not paranoid. I'm not thinking that someone's going to jump from a tree every time I'm in the park.
But I'm still aware of my surroundings. That's prevention again.
That's self-defense.
Yeah. So what about your conditioning? Because I was kind of fascinated.
Clearly, I know that efficiency is a big part of Jiu Jitsu as well and being relaxed.
But what was your conditioning like back in 94 and has it changed in any way?
First thing to win a fight, you got to know what you're doing.
I don't know how to play rugby. I don't know how to play cricket.
I have no business in that field.
You don't need to know cricket. You got three days to spare.
But it's knowledge. Second, it becomes endurance.
You can have the fastest car in the world without gas.
What are you going to do? Push the car around? Not going too far?
Your next door neighbor have a scooter full of gas.
He's going to go much farther than you. Third becomes muscle power, horsepower.
So in that order. So yes, everything I do is towards endurance.
The training is all towards endurance. Not short, fast and just powerful moves.
No, towards endurance.
I think that applies very well to a lot of people that listen to this,
whether they're soldiers or police or fire.
As a firefighter, I can't muscle hose to your doorstep and then,
I'm sorry, I can't go inside and get your kids. I'm too tired now.
We need to have that strength, but we need to have that endurance over an hour, two hours.
All day. Yep. You got to be all day, Dio.
You cannot just do for 15 minutes, 25 minutes. No.
But that's the way I train my strength coach, James Strom.
He's training my son now. My son just finished three rounds for Bellator in Israel.
He won his fight. After the third round, he came up the corner and he's like,
can I do another round? I was like, no, it's over.
But people will say, well, he should have fought harder and live in the cage.
Well, that's how we build, man.
He went back to the locker room and did another five minutes shadow boxing.
So kid got good endurance.
Now, what took you to Bellator? I saw that you were involved with Bellator.
Was it Bellator you fought Ken Shamrock in a couple of years ago?
Yes, a couple of years ago. It was my last fight. My first knockout.
After 25 years fighting, one knockout in my last fight. Never knocked anybody out.
A lot of arm bars and chokes.
So speaking of actually, that's something I meant to ask you as well.
So one of the people that reached out had a question and it's something I'm curious to.
The bringing or involving striking in your jiu-jitsu.
What is your philosophy on strikes as far as the Gracie jiu-jitsu model?
The fight starts standing up. It doesn't start on the ground.
So I always learned striking.
But I mean, I learned boxing, kickboxing, taekwondo. I took all lessons.
Karate from all different... It's like a soldier that has to learn how to use the opponent, the enemy's weapon.
You see, just in case. I learned more for me to know what's coming at me than that I'm going to use.
So if I'm going to fight a boxer, I'll learn boxing.
For me to know how he moves, what is he going to do to me?
Not because I'm going to try to out box him. That would be stupidity.
So yes, I learned stand up martial arts all my life. All of them.
For me to know how they move and what they're going to do. Not because I'm going to do it to them.
My thing was jiu-jitsu. Getting a clinch.
Once I get in a clinch, once we go to the ground, then I'll start to throw hits.
Elbows, punches, if I have to. To move him from point A to point B.
I'm going to hit him so hard that I'm going to knock him out. Never thought it that way.
The hits was light. Hits is just to make him move. Just to maneuver him.
Brilliant. And so going back to the law enforcement, I just want to kind of highlight something.
So you actually have a Gracie law enforcement course?
Yes, I do.
So if you wouldn't mind telling the people listening, because there's going to be a lot of police officers listening to this.
Go to my website, hoistgracy.com. And whenever now we're finishing up the year, I only have one schedule.
I don't think it's on the website yet. But next that I go every year, it's more Oklahoma.
And I teach over there every end of September, beginning of October.
I go over there. It's more of an instructional course, teaching them how to teach the moves.
So it's a week long course. And then they go back to the department and teach.
Right. Okay. And you're still working with the military even till today?
Yes. I visit some groups. Like right now, we're just finishing up the year so I don't have anything.
I just have my last trip this year is actually Hawaii for Bellator. They're doing back to back show in Hawaii.
They're actually doing one inside the base. I think it's inside the base, yes.
Okay. And you still?
For the troops. On Friday and then Saturday for everybody else. Two shows, two days back to back.
Okay. And am I right? I think I read somewhere that you were almost like an ambassador role now for Bellator.
Because you've seen in the UFC, back in the earlier days, obviously, there were some real caricatures.
And I actually had Dan Severn on a little while ago.
But then it seemed like the humility, the respect of what you think of as a martial artist was present for a long, long time.
And now it seems like we're starting to see a trend of almost like WWE showmanship.
Is one of your roles to kind of bring everyone back to represent the sport properly?
On Bellator, I talk to a lot of the fighters, teaching them how to behave and the city so they don't get carried away.
Yeah, some of the other shows kind of encourage that, that the people talk trash and be disrespectful and every way push, push, shove, shove.
There's no need for that. The kickboxing, I was just Bellator in Italy, in Genova, Italy, and they had a kickboxing, Bellator kickboxing.
And now the kickbox is very respectful to each other. They stand there. There's no touching, pushing each other.
And I tell the guys all the time, dude, you push him. He falls off stage and break his arm, fight his castle.
You don't get paid. And you get an assault charge, probably. You don't get paid. You get an assault charge, you don't get paid.
So watch it. But they like to try to sell the fight. And I understand the selling the fight.
Sell it in the cage. That's what I tell them. Go over there and perform. Don't just talk. That will sell the next one.
Don't just talk, talk, talk. And then you get there, you get knocked out. It's like, really? All that talking, you lose. Come on, man.
Okay, so I want to just transition to some wrap up questions and be mindful of your time. You've been giving us an hour every time and I'm so, so appreciative of that.
First one, I always like to ask people, is there a book that you've read that you love to recommend it can be about Jiu Jitsu or something completely different?
Man, I'm not a big reader at all. But I read Genghis Khan.
Genghis Khan?
I love it. He was a genius in the art of war.
Yeah, he was pretty successful. Apparently we've all got his DNA.
What about a movie and or a documentary? So I noticed that there isn't actually a documentary about you. Not the one I could find.
Not yet.
I was going to say there needs to be one.
Not yet. Working on it.
Okay. All right. So the potential hoist Gracie one.
Movie. I like Braveheart. I like Lassie the Mohicans. The Godfather, of course. Romantic movies.
And then is there a documentary that you've seen? It can be about anything at all. It doesn't have to be about Jiu Jitsu.
I like about Pele.
Pele, football.
Yeah, they just had one done not too long ago. How he started. It's pretty good. I like it.
He was an icon. I remember when I was tiny and Brazil was still destroying everyone in the World Cup.
What was the team like this year?
Brazilians are always good. They just can't play together. I was just in Italy, like I said, and they said the same thing. They're like, yeah, the Italian players, they're good. They're crazy about soccer, but they cannot play together.
Put them to play as a team. Everybody's a superstar. Nobody. They don't. They don't. They can't function together. As a single players, they're awesome.
Yeah. Yeah, I think.
Same thing with Brazil. Yeah.
Yeah. England's the same as well. We've got some great people. I think this squad that we just had this last time did very well. I guess they're all super young. So I'm excited to see England.
Because they play different countries. They never get to see each other. So they meet up for one tournament. It's like for a couple months they train together, but they don't get along.
And everybody wants to be the king and everybody wants to be the superstar. Yeah. So they end up self-destroying themselves.
Yeah. And losing the World Cup.
Yeah.
All right. Then one of my favorite questions. Is there a person that you would recommend to come on this podcast to talk to the first responders, military of the world?
I would love to have my father here.
I would love to too.
Too late.
Well, I mean, my God, did he leave a legacy though. I mean, it blows me away. I remember being in university and watching the VHSs of the first few.
And then on my drive to come and see you, I lost count how many Jiu-Jitsu schools I drove by. So I mean, that's the legacy that he can be proud of.
Horton, my brother, he's the pioneer of the one who brought pretty much Jiu-Jitsu to America, created the UFC. Yeah.
He would be another incredible one. Thank you.
All right. So the last one before we just make sure we talk about where we can find you in your seminars. What do you do to decompress when you're not teaching?
I go for a run.
That's why your eyes lit up.
I do that shooting for me. It's like, man, it's my time. Go. You can't be on the range. You're having conversations and talking and no, you're concentrated down range and yep.
And always get better and faster and better. And you see, I love that. Stand up, pedal boarding, running.
And have you been shooting a long time or is it something you got into more recently?
Oh, no, I've been a long time. Long time. Lately, I started taking some lessons with Terran Butler.
Okay, because I've seen you posting some like Hill House stuff.
Terran Butler is awesome. He's for a guy who's big. He's super fast. My best time, I always mess with him.
I do my best time on shooting, aiming and I tell him you cannot aim. You got to shoot from the hip and you have to be half of my time for you to beat me.
And he does. That's the impressive part. It's like, makes me want to go back to the range again and practice some more.
Another one you see seems to be the jujitsu and then the shooting as well is Keanu Reeves. Who's a guy who's been training with Terran Butler for quite a bit too now.
Yeah, he'd actually probably be a good one to get Terran Butler too on the show.
But yeah, and I love him because you don't see him when he's not making movies. He's not plastered all over the award ceremony in front of the paparazzi.
Seems like a very humble guy. Yes, we met Terran before. Oh really? Yep. Very cool.
All right. Well, the very last thing then so I can let you go. Where can people find you? Your sites, your seminars?
Instagram, Rio Hoice, R-O-Y-C-E, Rio Hoice. Tweet is the same one. Seminars, I post all the seminars on my website, hoicegrace.com.
Brilliant. All right. Well, again, I just want to say thank you. I know that a lot of people out there do jujitsu. It's amazing to see so many people that follow already in that. Well, they've got their kids in that. But just to get to talk to you and the people that serve in their communities.
You know, here your philosophy. I really appreciate that. You're welcome. You live here now? I live in America. I live in Florida.
Okay. Yes. So they're doing a show in England. I think in February they're doing a Bellator. Oh, really? No, not London. Sorry. Newcastle. I think it's Newcastle. Okay. I think it's the first time they've had an MMA event in Newcastle.
I think it's the first time. Yes. Excellent. I'll be there for that one. Okay. Well, yeah, let me know if you're ever in Florida. You got a place to stay. Thank you.