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I'm extremely excited to announce a brand new sponsor for the Behind the Shield podcast

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that is Transcend.

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Now for many of you listening, you are probably working the same brutal shifts that I did

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for 14 years.

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Suffering from sleep deprivation, body composition challenges, mental health challenges, libido,

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hair loss, etc.

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Now when it comes to the world of hormone replacement and peptide therapy, what I have

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seen is a shift from doctors telling us that we were within normal limits, which was definitely

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incorrect all the way to the other way now where men's clinics are popping up left, right

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and center.

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So I myself wanted to find a reputable company that would do an analysis of my physiology

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and then offer supplementations without ramming, for example, hormone replacement therapy down

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my throat.

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Now I came across Transcend because they have an altruistic arm and they were a big reason

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why the 7X project I was a part of was able to proceed because of their generous donations.

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They also have the Transcend foundations where they are actually putting military and first

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responders through some of their therapies at no cost to the individual.

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So my own personal journey so far filled in the online form, went to Quest, got blood

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drawn and a few days later I'm talking to one of their wellness professionals as they

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guide me through my results and the supplementation that they suggest.

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In my case specifically, because I transitioned out the fire service five years ago and been

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very diligent with my health, my testosterone was actually in a good place.

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So I went down the peptide route and some other supplements to try and maximize my physiology

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knowing full well the damage that 14 years of shift work has done.

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Now I also want to underline because I think this is very important that each of the therapies

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they offer, they will talk about the pros and cons.

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So for example, a lot of first responders in shift work, our testosterone will be low,

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but sometimes nutrition, exercise and sleep can offset that on its own.

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So this company is not going to try and push you down a path, especially if it's one that

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you can't come back from.

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So whether it's libido, brain fog, inflammation, gut health, performance, sleep, this is definitely

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one of the most powerful tools in the toolbox.

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So to learn more, go to transcendcompany.com or listen to episode 808 of the Behind the

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Shield podcast with founder Ernie Colling.

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This episode is sponsored by New Calm.

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And as many of you know, I only bring sponsors onto this show whose products I truly swear

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by.

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Now we are an overworked and under slept population, especially those of us that wear uniform for

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a living and trying to reclaim some of the lost rest and recovery is imperative.

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Now the application of this product is as simple as putting on headphones and a sleep

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mask.

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As you listen to music on each of the programs, there is neuroacoustic software beneath that

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is tapping into the actual frequencies of your brain, whether to up-regulate your nervous

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system or down-regulate.

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Now for most of us that come off shift, we are A, exhausted and B, do not want to bring

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what we've had to see and do back home to our loved ones.

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So one powerful application is using the program Powernap, a 20 minute session that will not

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only feel like you've had two hours of sleep, but also down-regulate from a hypervigilant

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state back into the role of mother or father, husband or wife.

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Now there are so many other applications and benefits from this software.

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So I urge you to go and listen to episode 806 with CEO Jim Poole, then download New

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Not only will you have an understanding of the origin story and the four decades this

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science has spanned, but also see for yourself the incredible health impact of this life-changing

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software.

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And you can find even more information on newcalm.com.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on

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the show veteran volunteer and career firefighter Chris Moore.

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Now in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from his journey into the fire service,

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some career calls, his powerful mental health story, save a warrior, brothers helping brothers,

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leadership and so much more.

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Now before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment

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to go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback

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and leave a rating.

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Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find.

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And this is a free library of almost 900 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so

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I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you Chris Moore.

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Enjoy.

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Well, Chris, I want to start firstly to say thank you to Jim for bringing us together

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in Ohio for the Brothers Helping Brothers Conference and secondly, I want to welcome

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you personally to the Behind the Shield podcast today.

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Thank you for having me.

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Amazing conference where we finally got to have our paths crossed in Ohio.

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And it was a pleasure meeting you and spending a few days together with you and getting to

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see the man behind the podcast and everything that you're doing.

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So that was such an honor and it's a huge honor to be a part of your podcast right now.

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Thank you.

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Yeah, well, I mean, it was it was such a powerful conference too.

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I mean, there was a lot of people I interviewed that I haven't met some local guys that I

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already had.

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So for example, interviewing Rowell and Jeff and their perspective on the the Pulse shoot

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in live was was incredible.

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So powerful.

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But then also me and Ben and some of the other guys that had on the show and watching their

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presentations and, you know, the the love in that conference space was incredible.

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It was the people that really understood vulnerability, but also that brotherhood and sisterhood piece.

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So it it reignited my fire and a belief that that's what the fire service really is.

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Yeah, me too.

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So amazing conference for anybody who hasn't been out there to the Brothers Helping Brothers

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Conference and what do they call it, Exotic Beaver Creek, Ohio.

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If you ever get a chance, it's every year in October.

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Definitely get out there and check them out.

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They're doing great things.

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Those guys that put that on truly have that servant's heart and they want to give back

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to the brother and sisterhood of the fire service and public safety.

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Absolutely.

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Well, I know you're not in Ohio now.

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So where are we finding you today?

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Virginia Beach, Virginia.

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So probably takes me about 17 minutes to do the math to get from my door to the beach.

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I was just there earlier today.

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That's my happy place.

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It's cold here.

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Not as warm as where you're at down in Florida.

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But I think today we're right around 40 degrees.

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So a little nippy down at the ocean front.

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But regardless, it's still my happy place.

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I like to go there and do self-care, meditation, any chance that I get to partake in that.

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So many of the people that have come on the show that have been attached to Virginia Beach

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are wearing a trident.

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So obviously there's a strong SEAL community there and even DevGru.

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So with you working in the fire service, have you had any interaction with that community

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in general and or your local law enforcement agency?

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Oh, yeah.

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Lots of interactions.

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It's kind of hard to go anywhere in this area, even as a civilian, without interacting with

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somebody in the military or law enforcement and even the SEAL teams and DevGru.

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But yeah, we have lots of positive interactions all around.

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Just a fellowship and the brotherhood, the camaraderie with them as well.

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Well, this would be a good question to ask you.

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I was blown away as I started, you know, on what's the right word, accumulating episodes

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and getting more and more conversations with people.

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How high the special operations, special forces communities hold us, the first responders.

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And it makes perfect sense.

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While they're deployed, we are protecting their loved ones.

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But you literally are living side by side with some of these.

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So have you had any of those kind of conversations or perceptions?

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Because the reason why I think it's so important is not for us to be our chest, but to then

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parallel resources, you know, training, fitness requirements, etc. with those men in this

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case, who hold us to the same position as themselves.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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You hit the nail on the head.

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Those guys, as badass as they are, super, super humble in what they do.

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And I can't thank the I put the military up here.

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And I can't thank them enough for everything that they do.

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But the the military that I've interacted with across the board, but since we're talking

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about special forces, the the seals that I've interacted with and everything.

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They do hold us in very high standards for the exact reasons that you said, because we're

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holding the fort down here, while they're taking care of business overseas, whether

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it be Africa or the Middle East or Afghanistan, whatever.

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But to me, my response always to these guys is they afford us the luxury to do what we

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do here, by them doing what they're doing over there.

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They're securing, defending and securing our freedom.

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And without that, we couldn't be on this podcast right now, we couldn't be on the rigs or the

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patrol cars or whatever it may be.

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So to me, they're they're well above.

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But they they they don't accept that from me.

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Because like I said, they're they're so humble, even as as badass as they are.

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And for those of you out there who have never met our any of our elite special forces.

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It seems like a lot of people think that they're kind of like us.

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People think we're superheroes, that we have an S on our chest or whatever.

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And that's that's just not the case.

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I mean, we are all just everyday men and women who are doing an exceptional job at what we

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do, providing a service to our communities and our country.

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So it's it's really cool, man, just to to sit down and have a regular conversation with

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these guys.

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What I found is that they because again, it's it's like I said, it's not apples to apples.

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Each of us do our profession and we're always in awe of other professions that do it at

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such a high level.

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And I think the the closest comparison I can think of is wildland and structural like the

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wildland firefighters.

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You guys are crazy running into a burning building.

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Why would you do that?

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We're like you you stand in the middle of burning mountains with a shovel.

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So I think there is that admiration, but where the value is, apart from that mutual respect,

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is OK, which of these organizations are doing it best?

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OK, the SEALs and some of the other communities, they get good training, everything from the

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mental health and the resilience to the fitness training, nutrition to the the knowledge sharing

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with special forces from other countries.

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And then you side by side compare the thing that I know, which is the fire service.

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There are some departments that do that very well, but there's a lot where we're asking

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men and women to do so much with so little, which is absolutely the polar opposite of

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how a lot of the special operations communities are treated.

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Yeah, that's very spot on analogy of that right there.

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There's so many organizations and departments that are ahead of their time.

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They are they're cutting edge and they're they're doing all the right things.

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Then you have another tier of organizations and departments that they say the right thing,

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but they don't always do the right thing.

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And then you have that bottom tier that just they don't put all of the pieces of the puzzle

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together and put out the I guess the best possible product if you want to call us a

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product, but the best possible scenario for success in the field, but at home also for

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their members.

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We always talk about ourselves in within this community as being a family, family oriented,

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family geared and everything.

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And kudos to the departments that truly follow through with that.

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But the ones that don't, Godspeed to them.

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I hope that they pick it up and elevate their game and start putting that total package

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together to take care of their members, not only while they're on that 24 hour shift or

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getting back to our military as well while they're deployed and everything, but when

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everybody is back at home and you're off shift with your family, we need departments to take

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care of those members at that time as well.

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Which workweek schedule do you guys have where you work?

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Oh man, that's a bad question.

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I'm going to confuse the hell out of you and everybody out there listening.

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So 56 hour workweek, but we're on, it's called a 21 day cycle.

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Everywhere I go, people ask me that question when I start explaining it, their mind is

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just blown.

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So they're 24 hour shifts, it starts on a Tuesday.

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So we go Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday and Monday.

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So it's every other day for roughly a week.

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Then we get off that Tuesday morning, we're off Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday.

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We come back and work Friday and then we work Sunday.

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We're off for two days.

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We work Wednesday and then we have a five day break and that'll bring us back to a Tuesday

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again and it starts all over.

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Well, the most important thing you said was 56 hour workweek.

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Because Anaheim was one on one off for four shifts and then it was a four or six after.

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So that's the closest thing that I've heard to what you're doing.

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But that 24 on 24 off was brutal for that tour.

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And I've done a call to action to the fire service in general.

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And the preface is this, we have so much courage operationally.

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I can't even recall really an event where someone refused to go into a fire or whatever

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because they were scared.

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I won't use the word coward, but they were scared, they were ill prepared, whatever it

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was.

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So we're a pretty courageous bunch overall operationally.

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But the number of times I've heard, oh, you'll never change that.

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You'll never change that.

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Oh, they'll never go for that.

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And I realized that we're courageous in uniform, but absolutely cowards when it comes to advocating

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for our own health, mental health, physical health and relationships at home.

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So this is something that I'm asking now, not just with the workweek, because I've talked

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that subject to death.

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We all know now that the 24 72 is probably what should be ultimately the industry standard

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to give our men and women the rest and recovery.

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And so now it's not, oh, what's the best?

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We know what the best is.

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Now it's like, how do we make that happen?

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The money is there because it's a false economy.

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The way that we work, save money if you actually have a healthier department.

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It's now a case of everyone from members to unions to chiefs to counties and cities to

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all have the courage to stand up and say, it's not working anymore.

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We need to change the way we're doing it.

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Yeah.

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We actually, you and I had a good portion of that conversation.

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And that that's definitely the best thing for the departments.

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Like you said, we have our one week of 24 on 24 off and that's, that's tough.

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And there are still departments that do 24 48 and even those departments that that's

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tough when you only have two days because the reality is nobody's doing this job to

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get rich.

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But we do need the money and it doesn't necessarily support us with a, in all municipalities where

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when we have a family or whatever.

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So you know, most of us, we have part time jobs.

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So it's not like you can get off from your 24 hour shift in the morning where you just

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got your butt handed to you and you get to go home and catch up on the sleep.

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Most of the time people get off, they might go home and see their significant other or

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whoever for a few minutes.

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But then you got to get back off to work a second job doing landscaping or painting or

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whatever it may be.

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So you're, we're already behind the eight ball.

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Then we're coming home and we're just, we're, we're beating ourselves up more and more

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because of these schedules like that.

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So yeah, the most ideal is to have that 72 hour break between shifts, do those, the four

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shifts an A, B, C and D shift and give your, your companies the, I don't even want to call

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it a luxury, but more of, I guess the necessity of having that 72 hours off to recover.

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And sometimes some of us are our own worst enemies though, when it comes to this, we

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could give guys and girls that 72 hours, but what are they going to do?

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They're going to sign up and they're going to work overtime half of that time or work

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a part time job all of that time or whatever.

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So we really got to, if we're afforded that benefit of going to a schedule like that,

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we got to utilize it to our best ability or our mental health.

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Was education and it's also the organizational side as well as staffing the department properly.

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So one of the things that I've realized a lot of people and you've, you've been on longer

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than I have, but when I tested about 20 years ago, I was testing against a thousand certified

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candidates with resumes, the size of a fricking yellow pages in California, for example, that's

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how the fire service should look.

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It's a job where you just want to take the top 10%.

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I'm not saying I was a top, but you vie to be that candidate that's worthy of that uniform.

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And then that ethos stays through your department.

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And now we're on the other side, where we've devolved as far as the work week and the amount

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of calls and the amount of things that we ask our responders to do now that we don't

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have that line outside the front anymore.

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So I, you know, my whole thing is if you put back the things that need to be there, and

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this is the irony is that we, we do believe that a 24 72 would be a luxury.

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That's a 42 hour work week.

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Most civilians work 40 and they go to bed every night.

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There's nothing luxurious about it.

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You're trying to get back to at least their baseline.

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That's all you're asking.

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But I, you know, I think then you would have people vying for the apartment.

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All the seats would be full.

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So then you can take that out.

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There won't be the overtime to drag people into in the first, but there'd be an occasional

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overtime fine.

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You know, you work a shift once in a while.

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No one's going to have an issue with that.

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But then you want the extra money.

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As you touched on earlier, you hang drywall, you landscape, you paint walls, you do, you

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know, whatever you start your, you have a side business, which is beautiful because

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then you can transition when you retire as well.

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Those are all great, but educating the people to understand that whatever you do on the

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side, make sure you're asleep in your own bed every night.

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That's the secret sauce.

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Yeah.

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And one of the terms I've heard many years ago, I can't remember who it was to credit

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them properly.

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I'm sure they're probably a follower and listener of James Gearing in your podcast, but is addicted

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to awake.

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And that's another thing also, even if we go with the proper days off that we could

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better help ourselves, we still need to educate ourselves better and our members as a whole.

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Just about any firehouse you go into, any time of the day or night, there's a pot of

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coffee that's going in the kitchen.

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I'm sure the same for police precincts and sheriff's offices, dispatch call centers,

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EMS.

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Hell, one of the fire stations that I was assigned to for quite a while, we had our

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own refrigerator designated.

311
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It was just monster energy drinks that we would sell.

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And we're hurting.

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We're our own best friend, but we're also our own worst enemy when it comes to a lot

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of the stuff.

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And just like you said, the education, our administration educating them to implement

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a lot of the things in our city councils, but it's got to trickle down and we got to

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educate the members and do the best things for ourselves.

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If we have people willing to work with us and help us out and accommodate us, we need

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to work on all of the other things.

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A couple of years ago, I completely cut caffeine out of my life.

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I stay away from caffeine and I thought that was going to be a super hard task to do.

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It really wasn't.

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And I tell you, just from doing that in the beginning, my sleep improved tremendously

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from cutting that out.

325
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Once then I have learned and done other things to assist with my sleep as well.

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But that's one of the key things right there is just cutting a lot of that stuff out.

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Well, I'm sitting here drinking a cup of coffee, so I'm not completely caffeine free.

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But what I've noticed is I've again abstained from alcohol since the 29th or 30th, I think

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it was.

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And so I'm in another period now of not drinking because for me, I mean, there's so many negatives,

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as I've said on here before.

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I've never woken up wishing I had drank the night before, but the converse is very true.

333
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So I've not been drinking, I'm not trying to drown out memories, anything like that.

334
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It's more habitual, cultural, et cetera.

335
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But I would lean into it as a really awful decompressor.

336
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It's not, it does the opposite.

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But what I found is when I don't drink, I don't drink as much coffee because the coffee

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for me was trying to offset the fogginess from the drinking the night before.

339
00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:37,840
Yeah, yeah, me too.

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And that's another thing that we haven't until recently at the Ohio conference back in October,

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the first time that I've ever seen a presenter actually speak out about alcohol and its effects

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on people and how we accept it as part of our culture.

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You go to a funeral.

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Oh, let's raise a glass to so-and-so.

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And you go to a union meeting.

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You're like, hey, after the meeting, let's have some beers or whatever, a charity fundraiser,

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golf tournament or whatever.

348
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We tend to center it all around drinking.

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It's become a major part.

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And we need to get away from that.

351
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And who it was who said that?

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I know you probably know, but since you were there.

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But it was it was Brendan, Brendan McDonough, Donut.

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And I applaud him 1000% for being the first person.

355
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I'm not saying people haven't done that before, but he's the first one at all the conferences

356
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I've ever been a part of and attended.

357
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He's the first person I've ever seen speak out about that.

358
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And I think we need more awareness and attention.

359
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And I'm not trying to be just like I'm sure you're not.

360
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:05,160
Maybe downer and say, no, don't ever drink or whatever.

361
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:13,280
But we just need to try and make it where we don't rely on it or have it be as much

362
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,360
of the culture.

363
00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:21,720
It shouldn't be a cultural culturally significant thing for us.

364
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:27,960
It can be part of events and things like that, but it shouldn't be relied on and depended

365
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:29,600
on.

366
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,960
I had a guest on here who was recommended by a friend of mine, and he wrote a book called

367
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,400
The Introvert's Edge.

368
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:42,320
And it was fascinating because immediately it kind of resonated with me.

369
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:47,720
The definition of an introvert or an extrovert is basically where you get your energy from.

370
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So you can be totally comfortable in a crowded room, but you level up by, you know, then

371
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when you go home to your family, your dog, whatever it is, the intimate settings, then

372
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you're probably an introvert.

373
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If you get your power, if you level up in a crowd, which I think is very, very few people

374
00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:07,680
to be honest, then you're truly an extrovert.

375
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:12,280
And I was like, oh shit, because I've always been okay in groups, but I'm the guy that

376
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,400
you'll turn around and go, you know, where the fuck did James go?

377
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,400
So I just, you know, all right, peace, I'm out.

378
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:17,400
I just hit that level.

379
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,760
And then, you know, I'm going to want to go to a busy party and I'll be sitting out the

380
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,960
back on the garden wall or something.

381
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:28,560
Not because of any other reason than that's just, I'm happier out there.

382
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:33,400
But then what it made me realize, if so many of us are introverts, alcohol is the social

383
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:38,960
lubricant because we have this facade that everyone else is the center of the party.

384
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,280
And we're the one that's like, what's wrong with me?

385
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,600
So this is, you think about pregame, how many times did you go out and you drank before

386
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,200
you even went out to feel comfortable being out?

387
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,520
I mean, it's lunacy when you think about it, but when you start deconstructing that before

388
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:56,280
we ever even became firefighters for us to got in a little bit later, you know, that

389
00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:02,000
that's the other thing that we're fighting is this, this, like I said, this fallacy that

390
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:07,080
other people can just slip into this social space and be fine.

391
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,440
And most of us can't, most of us drink so that we can even get to that point where we're

392
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,000
comfortable in crowds.

393
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:17,760
Yeah, yeah, that's definitely a great way to look at it.

394
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:25,640
I never thought about the introvert extrovert and everything where it pertains to alcohol.

395
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:33,760
And many of us feel like we, we need that to that liquid courage to get up and be more

396
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,080
social or whatever.

397
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:51,320
And I still partake, but I partake responsibly and it's very kind of few and far between.

398
00:28:51,320 --> 00:29:02,000
As in the past, I did do a lot of drinking where I felt like I had to be social.

399
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:11,560
I had to get, as you described it, that social lubricant and pregame and I felt like it was

400
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:18,280
a need, but since I have cut back and everything and just being more in the present and in

401
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:28,440
tune with who I'm self, who I am myself, I feel I really, I don't need it anymore to

402
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:36,120
be able to carry on a good conversation, a well-educated conversation.

403
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,440
I can just be me.

404
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:44,160
I'm not trying to, or no longer am I trying to impress other people.

405
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:45,960
I don't need to.

406
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:54,760
If somebody just feels like they need to do this to impress people or do that to impress

407
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,960
somebody, then they're, they're doing things for the wrong reason.

408
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:05,440
All I have to do, I want to serve other people, but at the end of the day is I need to take

409
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:12,280
care of Chris Moore and do what serves Chris Moore the best and properly.

410
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:17,240
And I'm happy with that if I do something that pisses James Gehring off or any of his

411
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,680
listeners or just people in general.

412
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:28,160
Hey, I'm sorry, but I'm living my best life now and it doesn't always have to include

413
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,460
that social lubricant.

414
00:30:30,460 --> 00:30:33,120
So what you're saying is you wouldn't do a keg stand pussy.

415
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,760
Am I getting that right?

416
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:38,760
I'm not saying that.

417
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:40,760
All right.

418
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,320
Well, speaking of Chris Moore, let's start at the very beginning of your timeline so

419
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,280
we can learn about your journey into the fire service.

420
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,720
So tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what

421
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:52,720
your parents did, how many siblings?

422
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:53,720
Yeah.

423
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:59,920
So I was born and raised right here in the Virginia beach area.

424
00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:06,380
And it'll be almost 51 years ago I was born here.

425
00:31:06,380 --> 00:31:13,840
My father, he was a Vietnam veteran in the Marine Corps and went over and I believe he

426
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,680
did two tours in Vietnam.

427
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:23,160
And he came back and he joined the local police department in the neighboring city of Norfolk,

428
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:24,440
Virginia.

429
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:30,880
And he served honorably there for over 20 years until he retired.

430
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:38,520
He had, looking back on things now, a lot of post-traumatic stress.

431
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:46,880
Didn't know anything about it at that timeframe, the 80s and everything when I was a young

432
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,440
terror growing up.

433
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:58,120
But now that I'm more educated about it and I guess globally we're more educated and have

434
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:05,320
understanding of it, I see where a lot of that really affected my dad, not just the

435
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:13,040
police department, but coming back from Vietnam and everything, issues that he had.

436
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:22,180
He was a great man, but coming from that older generation and especially I guess the older

437
00:32:22,180 --> 00:32:24,840
military generation and Marine Corps.

438
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:30,720
He went to boot camp at Parris Island, South Carolina.

439
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:39,120
And back in those days, they could physically abuse you in boot camp.

440
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:49,280
And he would occasionally talk about all that and he became a, he was a strict disciplinarian.

441
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:53,480
And it was tough at times.

442
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:58,560
I had a good childhood, but had some issues related to a lot of that.

443
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:00,960
My mother, she was a working class family.

444
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:07,240
She worked over 40 hours a week and I had a, or still have an older brother.

445
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,120
He's a couple of years older than me.

446
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:15,320
So it was just him and I and our folks growing up.

447
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,160
I remember my dad, he would take me to work with him.

448
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:24,920
If he, I was home, we were out of school or whatever, he had to go to court.

449
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,920
I remember him taking me to court.

450
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,640
I remember days when he had to patrol and he didn't have court.

451
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,480
He would pick me up in his patrol car and take me around with him.

452
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:40,440
We'd go to the firehouses and police precincts, everything like that.

453
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:45,960
It was, it was a really cool experience for a kid.

454
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:56,000
You figure a lot of kids, at least back in that time period, you would just idolize the

455
00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:01,120
firefighters, the law enforcement, everything like that.

456
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:09,200
And I would just, I was in awe of my old man, but then all of his friends at the police

457
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:13,200
precinct and firehouses and everything.

458
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:21,520
So initially, even though I was in awe of all of that, I wanted to be, I think I was

459
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:23,040
like six years old.

460
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,040
I wanted to be a damn trash man.

461
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,360
So I wanted to ride on, instead of riding on the tailboard of a fire engine like they

462
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:36,560
did back then, I wanted to ride on a tailboard of a trash truck and do that.

463
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:41,920
But as I got older and everything, not much older than that, probably about eight years

464
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:42,920
old.

465
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,600
I just knew I wanted to be a first responder.

466
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:53,000
I wanted to emulate my old man and I wanted to give back to the community.

467
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:58,800
I remember every morning or when he worked mornings, but at night, same thing every day

468
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:04,160
when he was getting ready to go into work and just seeing the pride that he had putting

469
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,920
that uniform on, polishing his shoes.

470
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:14,160
At that point had the big thick patent leather belt and everything and having that, his utility

471
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:19,040
belt all polished and shiny and just looking as square in a way as could be.

472
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,640
I was like, man, that's my dad.

473
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:23,360
That's my old man right there.

474
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,840
And I was just so proud of all that.

475
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,120
And I knew I wanted to do it.

476
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:37,880
Fortunately, as I graduated high school and when I hit 20 years old, I scored high enough

477
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,320
on the test where I didn't have to be a cop.

478
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:44,520
I was able to be a firefighter.

479
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:51,520
So that's why I got into firefighting instead of law enforcement.

480
00:35:51,520 --> 00:36:02,080
In all seriousness, I just I wanted to do more of the fire side just because I think

481
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:06,680
we all know that both jobs are inherently dangerous.

482
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:12,280
I didn't want to be shot at, although firefighters nowadays can get shot at, stabbed like Ben

483
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:16,120
or any other forms of assault.

484
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,800
They were just as dangerous.

485
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:28,880
But I just wanted to do more positive stuff with the fire side and EMS.

486
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:37,680
And at 20 years old, I started out as a volunteer in the city of Virginia Beach, and I volunteered

487
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:45,600
here for seven years until I got hired by the neighboring city of Chesapeake and the

488
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:46,600
fire department there.

489
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,960
And that's where I currently serve now.

490
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,080
And currently a captain.

491
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:58,840
I've risen up through the ranks and started as a firefighter, got my paramedic and made

492
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,280
lieutenant, and now I'm a captain.

493
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:07,000
And I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoy that.

494
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:12,600
The public safety was in my blood from day one.

495
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:22,000
And I wouldn't trade it for the world, although I wish I knew then a lot of the stuff that

496
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:28,960
I know now and that we're finding out about the, not just the fire service, but the public

497
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:35,280
safety sector and how things affect our mental health.

498
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:36,480
So I would have done things.

499
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:42,200
I still would have went with the career, but I would have done things a lot different.

500
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,260
And it's the whole, we don't know what we don't know.

501
00:37:45,260 --> 00:37:47,040
My dad didn't know it.

502
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:48,840
I didn't know it.

503
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:57,440
So I currently, I have a son who just graduated high school last summer and he's a young man

504
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,480
now 18 years old, trying to find his way in life.

505
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:07,480
And I've never once tried to push anything on him and say, Hey, you got to go into public

506
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:12,520
safety and carry on our family legacy or anything like that.

507
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:20,600
But if he decides to go that route, dad's definitely going to have a little sit down

508
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:21,600
talk with him.

509
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:27,080
And he's seen the effects that it's had on not just myself, but the whole family dynamic

510
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,440
because it doesn't just affect the first responder.

511
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:32,880
It affects the entire family dynamic.

512
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:38,040
Well, speaking of that, I want to go all the way back to your dad.

513
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:46,160
I've had a few guests now that were Vietnam veterans and so conversely to the ticker tape

514
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:50,680
parades of world war II that we romanticize about, even though now I just interviewed

515
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,960
two world war II veterans the other day, that is a fallacy that they just rolled up their

516
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,560
sleeves and went to work and were fine because they weren't.

517
00:38:57,560 --> 00:38:59,640
A lot of them were not fine.

518
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:04,760
And you hear this now, granddad was often drinking, abusive, that kind of thing.

519
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:06,560
And there's no disrespect to the individual.

520
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:11,040
That's what happens when you come from the horrors of war with no real mental health

521
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:15,000
conversations and you just thrust back into rebuilding your country.

522
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:22,400
But when it comes to the Vietnam era, which I think is somewhat, it's not the same, but

523
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:27,520
it's now parlaying a little bit more for our Afghan vets that suddenly we withdrew and

524
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:31,060
they were left with that kind of legs from being cut under them.

525
00:39:31,060 --> 00:39:35,400
But the world, excuse me, the Vietnam veterans were literally spit on, pissed on.

526
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,840
All these horrific stories that I've heard.

527
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:39,240
What was his homecoming story?

528
00:39:39,240 --> 00:39:45,000
Did he ever talk to you about how he was received and how that impacted him?

529
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:46,920
Exactly what you just said.

530
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:58,200
What we hear about how everybody from that was perceived just negative and it affected

531
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,200
him tremendously.

532
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:10,000
And from, I think that was probably, it might've started a little bit with Korea, but Vietnam

533
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:11,000
definitely.

534
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:20,000
And then Iraq and Afghanistan now, everything has just been, and I'm not trying to transition

535
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,800
all of this, but everything just gets politicized.

536
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:28,880
It seems like Vietnam was like the turning point where things were starting to get politicized

537
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:29,980
now and everything.

538
00:40:29,980 --> 00:40:35,800
We don't think about our men and women who are over there doing the things.

539
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:41,360
We just want to choose sides and right and wrong and everything like that.

540
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:48,480
And regardless of which side that you're on, we need to, we didn't do it then and we're

541
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,800
still not doing it now.

542
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,040
We need to take care of our people.

543
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:58,040
And he definitely, none of them were taken care of.

544
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:01,640
And it affected him tremendously.

545
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:12,980
And even going back to how you spoke about World War II and we have this fallacy that,

546
00:41:12,980 --> 00:41:17,440
like you said, the ticker tape prades and all that, did they have those?

547
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:18,720
Sure, they did.

548
00:41:18,720 --> 00:41:27,520
But still it wasn't things to necessarily fix their mental health and their wellbeing

549
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,320
and everything because they got back.

550
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,200
Maybe they had some kind of a parade.

551
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:33,320
They rolled their sleeves up.

552
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:34,320
They went to work.

553
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,400
The alcohol and everything was still there.

554
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:43,440
But if we rewind even before that, and this is where it's starting to show a pattern of

555
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:49,240
almost like a, well, not almost, but of a generational type trauma, because you figure

556
00:41:49,240 --> 00:41:55,520
our vets that came back from World War II, what were their fathers possibly in World

557
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:57,400
War I?

558
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:03,080
And it's just what people learn and people experience.

559
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:08,960
And they were very young men, probably a lot of them in World War I and World War II and

560
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:16,360
even partially in Vietnam were going in before they were even 18 and putting their lives

561
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:20,160
on the line and defending our country and everything.

562
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,360
So they come back from that.

563
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:27,120
Well, they're passing it on to the next generation, their children.

564
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,680
And so when those children grow up, that's all they've ever known.

565
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:32,600
So they're doing the same thing to their children.

566
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:38,880
So eventually we need to figure out and learn more about the generational trauma and we

567
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,360
need to stop it with us.

568
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:47,640
And I know I just took that completely around the room right there.

569
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:52,240
You were just asking me one question about my dad coming back from Vietnam.

570
00:42:52,240 --> 00:42:57,480
But like I said, his father was World War II.

571
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:04,800
And so it's definitely a difference in the way they came back and were perceived, but

572
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,040
it's not too far off of a difference.

573
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:16,120
We tend to think that everything was glorified after World War II, but that just necessarily

574
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:18,640
wasn't the case there.

575
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:28,680
And Vietnam was just from stories that I've been told from my dad, it was a horrible,

576
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:39,160
horrible time to be coming back from horrible conditions and fighting and just we'll just

577
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:40,160
say war.

578
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:41,160
It was war.

579
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:42,560
It was a conflict or war, whatever you want to call it.

580
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:44,520
It was war.

581
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:50,040
And he was already like just about probably everybody else that was over there traumatized

582
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:55,200
by a lot of the stuff that he was seen, was exposed to and seen and did.

583
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:59,040
And then you come back to that and it just, it doesn't help.

584
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:05,400
You're set up for, I don't necessarily want to say failure, but you're just not set up

585
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:08,320
for success.

586
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:10,320
And there were a lot of stories.

587
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:18,820
I didn't experience much of it, but I heard a lot in my prior to me being born in early

588
00:44:18,820 --> 00:44:28,200
years of life, like my entire life, my dad never, he never ate rice after coming back

589
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:29,200
from Vietnam.

590
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:33,160
He did leading up to that, but just through marching through the rice paddies there in

591
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:37,160
Vietnam, he wouldn't eat rice.

592
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:41,160
And the post-traumatic stress, and I guess that's probably a form of it right there,

593
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:47,920
but this is kind of ironic because he ended up becoming a police officer with sirens and

594
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,160
everything, but he would hear sirens when he first got back.

595
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:58,880
I remember my mother sharing this with me and he would just like go into almost like

596
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:07,880
a catatonic state or drop down and just thinking that something is happening there, having

597
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:08,880
flashbacks.

598
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:18,440
But there wasn't places, the VA wasn't set up to help those guys.

599
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:25,080
Hell, it's really not set up to help our current guys that well right now, but I wasn't set

600
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:29,080
up for them back in the day or anything like that.

601
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:41,480
So, very sad, very tragic and kind of disgusting that stuff like that happened to our men and

602
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,360
women who were over there doing something for us.

603
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:45,360
Yeah.

604
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,920
Especially as so many were drafted as well, whether you signed up or not, you know, I

605
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:54,440
mean, you were over there doing something, wearing the uniform with your nation's flag

606
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:55,440
on the shoulder.

607
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:59,880
And this is why when I ask the members of the military, I always say, regardless of

608
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:05,040
the politics that sent you there, let's talk about the atrocities and let's talk about

609
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:08,840
the kindness and compassion because we don't get the soldier's perspective a lot of the

610
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:09,840
time.

611
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:12,080
Like, let's talk about what you actually did for this country.

612
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:13,080
And that was what was lost.

613
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:17,560
And I think one of the, if I remember rightly, Vietnam, I think was the first conflict where

614
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,840
they actually had it embedded videographer.

615
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:24,360
So they were actually getting news feeds back of what was really going on.

616
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:30,200
It's all of a sudden, and it's obviously worse now, like every man and his dog had an opinion.

617
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:34,240
But if you want our boys to come home and men and women to come home, then bring them

618
00:46:34,240 --> 00:46:35,240
home.

619
00:46:35,240 --> 00:46:37,880
But, you know, they're not the ones at fault for this.

620
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:42,720
You know, it was, you know, the, the, uh, North Vietnamese initiating these atrocities

621
00:46:42,720 --> 00:46:48,200
and then a decision for us to go, whether it was altruistic or more, you know, politically

622
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:54,080
minded, as far as, um, one of my guests was talking about, I forget which city it was

623
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:55,080
now.

624
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:58,280
I don't know if it was Saigon, but anyway, that was like the, the jewel in Southeast

625
00:46:58,280 --> 00:46:59,880
Asia politically.

626
00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:03,360
If you, if you own that, then you own all the shipping routes and all those kinds of

627
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:04,360
things.

628
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:09,520
So whatever the reason that they found themselves there, they were there wearing our flag.

629
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:15,040
So we have to support them, whether it's Afghanistan or Vietnam or Somalia, wherever they're, you

630
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:16,780
know, they're trying to do good.

631
00:47:16,780 --> 00:47:20,480
Those men and women in uniform, apart from the anomalies are out there trying to serve.

632
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:25,800
So as you said, we owe it to them to support them, especially when they come home.

633
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:28,800
Yeah, right on.

634
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:33,760
So you talked, you touched on, you know, that your dad struggled.

635
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:37,760
The multi-generational story is actually something I'm trying to write in my second book.

636
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:42,560
Um, just trying to find the writer that exists somewhere in this tiny brain of mine.

637
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:45,840
I'm struggling with it at the moment, but it's so important.

638
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,880
And Jake, I will, I will credit Jake from Savor Warrior, which we'll get to in a minute

639
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:55,880
for opening my eyes on the element of childhood trauma in PTSD or mental health challenges

640
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:57,760
in uniform professionals.

641
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:03,200
So when you look back now, you know, as we all are starting to realize that before we

642
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:07,400
ever put the uniform on as a big part of our mental health journey, when you look back

643
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:13,040
now with the environment that you grew up in, are there elements that contributed to

644
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:15,160
trauma that you found later in life?

645
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:20,480
Yeah, and I know you said we're going to touch on it a little bit later when you referenced

646
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:29,680
Jake and the generational trauma, but things that I never realized, because a lot of times

647
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:37,120
things happen to us, even still as adults, but most notably as children, we push things

648
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:38,640
down.

649
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:42,880
We just, uh, suppress things so deep.

650
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:49,360
We think that they're, they're gone, but until, and I know this is so cliche, we start peeling

651
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:53,720
back the proverbial layers of the onion.

652
00:48:53,720 --> 00:48:57,440
You got to peel more than the first couple layers.

653
00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:02,640
And with, with Jake, one of the things that we've done and really helped me out was we

654
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:10,560
pulled every fricking layer back until there was no onion left and exposed everything.

655
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:24,120
And I thought that my childhood initially was perfect until we peeled that, that onion,

656
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:28,800
that onion all the way to the core.

657
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:37,000
And the, the ACEs, the adverse childhood experiences score, it's the 10 questions, yes or no, when

658
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,880
you don't justify it.

659
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:49,000
I ended up finding out that I did have a lot of childhood trauma and issues.

660
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:50,000
I accepted them.

661
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:59,400
I suppressed them, but I accepted that if I was in, by no means does this mean that

662
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:05,920
I'm speaking disparaging words about my, my parents or anything like that, because they

663
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:06,920
didn't know.

664
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:10,320
They didn't know either, because that's why it's called generational.

665
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:16,600
The same shit happened to them and they did it to me and it stops here because now I know

666
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:17,600
about it.

667
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:23,480
I'm aware of it, but I just felt, okay, I did wrong.

668
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:28,600
That's why I got hit.

669
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:30,640
I justified everything when I was a kid.

670
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,120
And like I said, I suppressed it.

671
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:41,560
And I truly believe I haven't seen any legit, actually not even legit, I haven't seen any

672
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:52,160
true studies right now to support this other than just, I guess, more smaller, smaller

673
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:55,900
studies or questionnaires or whatever.

674
00:50:55,900 --> 00:51:06,440
But many of our first responders and our military are going to have a higher ACEs score.

675
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:12,880
And that's what led us to where we are right now, because we did have these adverse childhood

676
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:18,080
experiences when we were young and we felt like there was nobody there that could help

677
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:20,120
us.

678
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:26,720
And we wanted to be the rescuer, the saver of people when we got old enough, we wanted

679
00:51:26,720 --> 00:51:32,400
to get out of that bad, like I said, my environment wasn't the worst.

680
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:37,040
I still had a good childhood, but we wanted to get to better.

681
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:41,080
And we didn't want what happened to us in certain instances and occasions to happen

682
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:42,640
to other people.

683
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:48,840
So that's why we turn 18, we joined the military, we joined the police department or the fire

684
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:54,160
department or EMS.

685
00:51:54,160 --> 00:52:00,520
I know there is a correlation around that.

686
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:06,680
And I just want to see a very, maybe your book, I want to see a very large scale study.

687
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:09,360
I've seen some smaller ones.

688
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:13,720
And I'm pretty sure that this number is right.

689
00:52:13,720 --> 00:52:16,200
And you've probably heard it from Jake.

690
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:23,680
I believe he said the average prison population, their score is a six.

691
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:29,840
And from what I'm finding with those first responders, just in small conversations and

692
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:33,280
little things like that, the average score I'm finding on a first responder is right

693
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:36,640
around a six also.

694
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:41,760
And it's eye opening.

695
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:49,000
And I had never until I met Jake Clark, I've never heard of ACEs.

696
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:56,840
And I think that's something we really need to start looking into a lot more and addressing.

697
00:52:56,840 --> 00:53:03,960
You can address if you have the courage, because that's another thing we'll have to talk about

698
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:10,560
is having the courage to address our issues that we have from running these calls and

699
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:15,160
seeing what we see and everything like that.

700
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:18,600
You can address stuff like that all day long.

701
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:27,120
And you can say that a lot of that causes you to self-medicate with alcohol, prescription

702
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:39,360
drugs, porn, whatever your internal drug store for dopamine desires.

703
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:44,440
And you utilize to find that and open up that drug store.

704
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:46,720
You can blame it on that all day long.

705
00:53:46,720 --> 00:53:55,080
But I think we truly need to go back to the beginning, the first 18 years of life.

706
00:53:55,080 --> 00:54:02,200
And once you start addressing that, and not just addressing it and acknowledging it, but

707
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:11,920
getting the help, the clinical help for it, then you can start moving on and doing other

708
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:18,600
things for the rest of your life and your career and everything like that.

709
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:27,680
And that's one thing that I've done with therapy is I started doing that.

710
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:32,880
I've gotten away from therapy in the past, but I'm right back to it now.

711
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:38,720
And I'll never stop going to therapy and just addressing anything.

712
00:54:38,720 --> 00:54:41,960
If I go to therapy, I do it every other week.

713
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:44,080
I just went this morning.

714
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:49,680
And if I don't have anything to talk about, by all means, I'll still get there.

715
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:51,320
I'll pay my copay.

716
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:56,640
And we'll just sit down and we'll talk for an hour about the weather, sports, whatever

717
00:54:56,640 --> 00:54:58,760
it may be.

718
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:05,000
But yeah, I think it's very important that we address the generational aspect of it and

719
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:14,640
what happened, potentially happened to members of the first responder community in their

720
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:18,360
childhood, their first 18 years of life, without justifying anything.

721
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:21,760
Either the shit happened to you or it didn't.

722
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:24,240
Don't take blame or anything like that.

723
00:55:24,240 --> 00:55:29,800
Don't say, well, my dad did it to me because I was a little asshole or whatever.

724
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:31,760
If it happened, it happened.

725
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:34,120
Well, I couldn't agree more.

726
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:39,760
Firstly, it was interesting before I get into, I think some of the reasons why there is a

727
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:43,720
higher density of us with this element.

728
00:55:43,720 --> 00:55:47,920
How many times do you hear, I grew up in an environment and I knew it was either the military

729
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:48,920
or prison.

730
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:50,920
You know what I mean?

731
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:58,080
They're side by side in conversations, especially if you grew up in a poorer area or just out

732
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:00,920
rurally somewhere and you did find yourself with a bunch of friends, it's like, I was

733
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:03,400
either going to end up the military prison or dead.

734
00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:05,000
That's what you hear all the time.

735
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:08,800
So therefore there's a commonality and trauma there.

736
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:13,960
But what I also realized, because after talking to Jake, I would open the door wider for the

737
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:19,460
first part, the zero to putting uniform on.

738
00:56:19,460 --> 00:56:22,500
And I started realizing, oh my God, there's so much there.

739
00:56:22,500 --> 00:56:28,080
Never pushing someone in, just saying, when you look back, what do you see now?

740
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:29,080
And so many.

741
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:33,800
So observationally, almost 900 interviews now, I can tell you hands down, because I'm

742
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:36,400
not picking people because of trauma for this show.

743
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:42,360
Every man and his dog from models and dancers through the Navy SEALs and firefighters.

744
00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:47,840
But even some people have come on to talk about strength and conditioning or some completely

745
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:49,880
non-mental health conversation.

746
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:51,200
We find ourselves there.

747
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:54,800
Dan John's a perfect example, strength and conditioning guru.

748
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:58,880
His multi-generational trauma with his dad and his brother, World War II in Vietnam took

749
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:03,280
up more than half of the conversation, before we even talked about barbells.

750
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:08,400
But what really makes me understand it is like you said, there's that victim element

751
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:11,020
that you want to be the protector.

752
00:57:11,020 --> 00:57:17,400
But then there's also the busyness, which is why I think a lot of responders start to

753
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:21,480
struggle around the 10 year mark when the job just isn't as exciting anymore because

754
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:23,840
you've seen so much.

755
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:27,040
There's that tribal element being part of something.

756
00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:33,200
So there's a lot of reasons why a lot of us find ourselves going into uniform because

757
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:36,680
it is somewhat the antidote to some of the struggles that we had.

758
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:40,120
But the problem is, if you address it, it becomes a superpower.

759
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:42,960
I truly believe that trauma becomes resilience.

760
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:46,560
If unaddressed and pushed down, it becomes a cracked foundation that you're trying to

761
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:48,640
build a house on.

762
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:51,640
Yeah, absolutely.

763
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:58,240
And one of the hardest things, like you said, addressing it makes you a superhero.

764
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:00,080
It's hard to do.

765
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:09,440
We still, no matter how far we've come through mental health warriors like yourself that

766
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:15,760
have the podcast and give everybody the platform to discuss it and bring it up openly.

767
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:24,960
It's still a taboo subject in many first responder communities and veteran communities.

768
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:27,000
Nobody wants to hear about it.

769
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:29,920
Nobody wants to talk about it.

770
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:37,040
We are having, and this isn't to be confused with the one that was several years ago with

771
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:41,600
all the women and politics and everything, but we're having in the first responder community

772
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:47,560
a Me Too movement that's starting to come out now.

773
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:55,080
When I speak at conferences and I share my story, I have so many people come up to me

774
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:58,640
afterwards and they say the whole Me Too.

775
00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:02,280
They thought they were all alone and that they were the only ones.

776
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:10,120
They were suffering in silence until they hear my story or your story or Ben Vernon's

777
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:13,720
story, something like that.

778
00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:21,800
We need to get more open and have these tough candid conversations and let others know that,

779
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:25,600
hey, we're going to see a lot of stuff and we're going to hurt.

780
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:27,840
This job isn't easy.

781
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:34,520
It's a fun job, but it can be very painful at times, not necessarily physically, but

782
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:36,400
mentally it can be painful.

783
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:41,360
It takes its toll on you, like you said, usually about that 10-year mark is when people start

784
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:45,440
having the effects of it.

785
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:52,840
We need to start implementing more programs where we get a good baseline of these members

786
00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:56,120
coming into our departments.

787
00:59:56,120 --> 01:00:03,480
We need to do these checks, the checkup from the neck up on our members when they first

788
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:11,000
start and yearly, if not probably quarterly, all the way through to the end of their, what

789
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:15,960
should hopefully be a healthy career.

790
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:20,640
I know we're going to have issues, the common stuff where people have bad knees from crawling

791
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:26,840
around as firefighters and backs, neck issues, things like that.

792
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:35,680
As far as the brain goes and taking care of that mental health, that's something that

793
01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:41,000
to me, I think it can be easily fixed, easily done.

794
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:42,960
We just need to normalize it.

795
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:48,360
We need to get to these departments and the higher ups and we need to just sit around

796
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:54,600
the table and discuss it and tell them, this is how you should do it, this, this, this

797
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:56,140
and this.

798
01:00:56,140 --> 01:01:00,720
It's going to cost X amount of money, but just like you were talking about with the

799
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:06,120
sleep at the beginning of this, it's going to cost some money, but it's going to save

800
01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:12,520
you in the long term because the health insurance claims and workers comp and all that, you're

801
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:17,400
not going to have nowhere near as much as you do right now if you just take care of

802
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:20,920
those aspects of our men and women.

803
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:21,920
Absolutely.

804
01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:27,120
Well, one thing that I've talked about recently having worked for so many different departments

805
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:32,000
because it took me to the West coast and then back to the East coast was realizing that

806
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:34,560
we waste money even in the hiring process.

807
01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:38,940
I did three polygraphs of four departments, which anyone who researched polygraphs is

808
01:01:38,940 --> 01:01:41,280
complete smoke and mirrors bullshit.

809
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:46,200
Did the Minnesota interview personality, I can never remember the bloody name of it,

810
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:50,280
but anyway, it's also never ever meant to be a standalone test.

811
01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:53,840
Maybe not to decide if someone's worthy of being a firefighter or not.

812
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:58,720
Those two right there, you could literally scrap and now that gives you a budget.

813
01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:04,240
Just talking about hiring the new recruits, take that money and now put it into four,

814
01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:08,060
six sessions with a therapist, with a counselor, like you said.

815
01:02:08,060 --> 01:02:14,400
Now you open the door for people to talk about the life prior to your department and start

816
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:16,080
dealing with that.

817
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:20,680
You've normalized the mental health conversation at the front door and you've removed the barrier

818
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:24,800
to entry to finding a counselor because initially this would be your person.

819
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:30,880
I heard you talking on, I think it was a beneath the helmet podcast, which I love as well.

820
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:37,120
Then have that and then open the door to finding a counselor that works for you specifically

821
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:41,200
because I think that that's the danger of the single person is it not being the right

822
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:42,200
fit.

823
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:46,280
You're normalizing at the front door saying this is what it is to be a firefighter.

824
01:02:46,280 --> 01:02:50,320
We're going to do PT and we're going to do PT for your mind as well.

825
01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:53,520
That I think is how you change it and you don't even come up with extra money.

826
01:02:53,520 --> 01:02:56,840
We have it built in in these bullshit hiring processes.

827
01:02:56,840 --> 01:03:00,500
Do your written, do your physical, do a solid background check and you'll be able to figure

828
01:03:00,500 --> 01:03:03,480
out if it's a good candidate or a bad candidate.

829
01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:04,960
Yeah.

830
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:13,200
It seems like more and more you touched on it earlier the whole back in the day when

831
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:18,120
you and I were trying to get in the fire service, it was, we're going up against a couple thousand

832
01:03:18,120 --> 01:03:22,600
people and now it's probably a few hundred.

833
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:30,680
So for whatever reason, we're struggling with the numbers to actually sit for the process.

834
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:36,240
We're trying to beef those numbers up and get more people, get more candidates to apply.

835
01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:42,040
But to me, I think we're to an extent, we're sugarcoating it.

836
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:44,960
We're not letting people know exactly what they're going to see and what they're going

837
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:45,960
to be exposed to.

838
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:49,760
And I'm not telling you we need to scare them away, but we need to be open and honest with

839
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:54,400
them instead of just, oh, you're only going to work 10 days a month and you're going to

840
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:57,560
get to ride the fire truck and do this and do that.

841
01:03:57,560 --> 01:03:58,560
Okay.

842
01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:02,080
So tell them that, but also tell them the other things that they're going to see and

843
01:04:02,080 --> 01:04:04,560
that they're going to be exposed to.

844
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:13,240
And I just think we need that complete transparency on the good and the bad.

845
01:04:13,240 --> 01:04:14,240
Absolutely.

846
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:18,520
And even with the branding and like you said, the wording, this is the one thing, oh, we

847
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:20,080
work a dream schedule.

848
01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:23,560
I don't know anyone in the civilian space that works 56 hours a week and doesn't sleep

849
01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:24,760
every third day.

850
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:26,560
So where we came up with that, I don't know.

851
01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:30,640
And I'm sure a hundred years ago, petting the Dalmatian playing cards, actually waiting

852
01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:31,640
for a fire.

853
01:04:31,640 --> 01:04:32,640
Yeah.

854
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:35,720
It was probably a cake gig, but that's not 20, 23.

855
01:04:35,720 --> 01:04:37,480
So we don't work 10 days a month.

856
01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:41,340
We work three days crammed together into a 24 hour period.

857
01:04:41,340 --> 01:04:46,720
So it's three days on one day off if you work a 24 48 or 30 days a month.

858
01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:48,880
Doesn't sound so good now.

859
01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:55,320
So it wouldn't be a dream, you know, a luxury to go to a 24 72, for example.

860
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:57,040
But I think this is, I agree with you a hundred percent.

861
01:04:57,040 --> 01:05:00,680
We've done such a horrible job at branding ourselves.

862
01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:02,920
Why is there a fire engine on my medical call?

863
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:04,540
It's 20, 23.

864
01:05:04,540 --> 01:05:07,280
You and I will enter the fire service where EMS was already apart.

865
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:10,840
I had to pass EMT school to become a firefighter.

866
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:16,360
So the fact that 20 plus 30 plus years ago, the public still asking that shows us that

867
01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:20,760
we, the fire service in general need to do a much better job of educating the people

868
01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:22,800
and what we actually do.

869
01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:23,800
Yeah.

870
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:24,800
Exactly.

871
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:30,840
So you talked about first entering the volunteer fire service.

872
01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:36,280
So I know it's a very unique position compared to, to career as far as living and working

873
01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:37,680
pretty much in the same place.

874
01:05:37,680 --> 01:05:42,920
So what were, what were some of the acute, acute kind of career events that you ran during

875
01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:43,920
that time?

876
01:05:43,920 --> 01:05:49,560
And then let's also bring in the contrast of the volunteer world versus the career world

877
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:52,080
that you entered after.

878
01:05:52,080 --> 01:05:58,840
So to volunteer at that time in the city of Virginia beach, they had a, they had a full

879
01:05:58,840 --> 01:05:59,840
Academy.

880
01:05:59,840 --> 01:06:05,600
So I had to go through an Academy, but it was, since most people were working regular

881
01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:10,200
jobs, they did it like a few nights during the week and then it was on the weekend.

882
01:06:10,200 --> 01:06:12,720
So I went through the Academy, graduated.

883
01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:17,200
And like I said, I was doing this to, to give back to the community, but also looked at

884
01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:21,400
it as getting my foot in the door and it was a good start.

885
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:26,600
So every chance I got, I was going up to the firehouse and volunteering.

886
01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:33,440
I was riding with the guys and I wasn't like what we call sometimes or used to call.

887
01:06:33,440 --> 01:06:34,800
I think it still happens today.

888
01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:37,800
I wasn't a blister.

889
01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:40,920
That's the, they don't come out until the work's done.

890
01:06:40,920 --> 01:06:45,600
I was there doing the work and helping the paid guys out.

891
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:48,200
Anything that they were doing, I was doing also.

892
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:58,280
I just wanted to just soak up as much as I could about that career and profession and

893
01:06:58,280 --> 01:06:59,720
everything.

894
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:05,080
Even though I was a volunteer, I still wanted to master the skills as a young man.

895
01:07:05,080 --> 01:07:09,840
And like I said, in, in hopes of, of getting hired.

896
01:07:09,840 --> 01:07:17,840
And it took me seven years because like you said, it was, it was thousands of people that

897
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:23,240
were going for, for these positions and everything.

898
01:07:23,240 --> 01:07:26,280
And I would run the calls with them.

899
01:07:26,280 --> 01:07:32,240
I would on weekends, I would work nights and our work 24 hour shift and spend the night

900
01:07:32,240 --> 01:07:36,120
at the firehouse and anything that they ran, I ran.

901
01:07:36,120 --> 01:07:47,040
And that was when I was first exposed to, to death outside of, I guess, normal environments

902
01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:50,520
as a young man, as a volunteer in the fire service.

903
01:07:50,520 --> 01:08:01,880
I saw my first dead body of somebody that I didn't know and ran some, a few, I guess,

904
01:08:01,880 --> 01:08:06,840
troubling, horrific motor vehicle accidents.

905
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:14,560
And looking back on that, we just, we never came back and we never talked about it.

906
01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:19,000
There was no, um, sizzle or anything.

907
01:08:19,000 --> 01:08:25,200
We just got back to the firehouse and went off to doing whatever we were doing prior

908
01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:27,040
to the call coming out.

909
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:31,000
And we never discussed any of it.

910
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:37,080
And like I said, that happened for seven years until I got hired by the neighboring fire

911
01:08:37,080 --> 01:08:39,360
department.

912
01:08:39,360 --> 01:08:49,680
And it was a contrast in styles.

913
01:08:49,680 --> 01:09:00,800
The Virginia Beach fire department was, gosh, they're probably, it was an all paid department

914
01:09:00,800 --> 01:09:05,240
and they just had some volunteers that would come in there and just help supplement.

915
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:06,240
And that's, that's where I was.

916
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:08,320
So they still had the camaraderie.

917
01:09:08,320 --> 01:09:12,160
Those guys were always the same group of guys on each shift.

918
01:09:12,160 --> 01:09:17,840
So they, they got to, to sit around and still solve the world's problems around the kitchen

919
01:09:17,840 --> 01:09:20,380
table.

920
01:09:20,380 --> 01:09:27,760
But as a volunteer, um, I didn't always have that luxury.

921
01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:34,700
I would come back with them and we would bullshit or, or whatever.

922
01:09:34,700 --> 01:09:37,280
But like I said, they didn't talk about the, the horrific.

923
01:09:37,280 --> 01:09:42,520
At least they didn't know around me and I would go home and wouldn't talk about anything.

924
01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:53,440
When I became career, um, we, and that was 2000, we did start, uh, we had in Chesapeake,

925
01:09:53,440 --> 01:09:57,440
we have a, um, at that point it was SISM.

926
01:09:57,440 --> 01:10:04,380
And during, um, trying times and troubling calls, we would have the SISM team would come

927
01:10:04,380 --> 01:10:10,280
to the firehouse afterwards or come to the scene of need be, and we would discuss things.

928
01:10:10,280 --> 01:10:18,840
Um, it was, um, by some people, a mockery, they would just call it the, the need a hug

929
01:10:18,840 --> 01:10:19,840
club.

930
01:10:19,840 --> 01:10:23,680
Oh, we got the need a hug club is coming out to the station to talk to us about this or

931
01:10:23,680 --> 01:10:25,800
that.

932
01:10:25,800 --> 01:10:33,760
And um, that was, was awkward.

933
01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:40,840
We would, um, I did notice, like I said, with Chesapeake when I became career, we would

934
01:10:40,840 --> 01:10:42,800
sit around the kitchen table.

935
01:10:42,800 --> 01:10:50,640
We would talk vaguely about things, but it most notably was that, um, that dark sense

936
01:10:50,640 --> 01:10:57,040
of humor is what we would use to just air out our feelings, what we saw and everything

937
01:10:57,040 --> 01:10:58,840
like that.

938
01:10:58,840 --> 01:11:07,760
Um, I never once either volunteer or as career would talk about any of the stuff outside

939
01:11:07,760 --> 01:11:10,800
of those, uh, those walls of the fire station.

940
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:19,600
Um, you would think as my life did progress and I got married in, um, 2003, you would

941
01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:25,360
think that, um, coming home, you're gone for 24 hours at a time and you haven't seen your

942
01:11:25,360 --> 01:11:30,600
significant other, uh, that you would have a lot of stuff to talk about when you got

943
01:11:30,600 --> 01:11:32,120
home.

944
01:11:32,120 --> 01:11:38,280
But my normal response to my wife at the time, when she asked how my shift was, I was just

945
01:11:38,280 --> 01:11:40,600
always be like, Oh, it was okay.

946
01:11:40,600 --> 01:11:42,800
Or it was the norm.

947
01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:52,600
I didn't tell her that I had a baby pass away in my arms or somebody's daughter.

948
01:11:52,600 --> 01:11:58,080
I couldn't save in a car accident or somebody's grandfather was in cardiac arrest.

949
01:11:58,080 --> 01:12:02,240
I never talked about any of that stuff and how it affected me.

950
01:12:02,240 --> 01:12:08,120
And it's, I did exactly what I, we talked about earlier with the childhood traumas and

951
01:12:08,120 --> 01:12:09,280
everything.

952
01:12:09,280 --> 01:12:18,440
I just kept suppressing everything down and, um, that's, that's never a good thing.

953
01:12:18,440 --> 01:12:25,520
And I didn't really see a whole lot of, um, uh, difference between the guys that were

954
01:12:25,520 --> 01:12:30,480
career when I was a volunteer working with them and then moving to departments where

955
01:12:30,480 --> 01:12:35,520
it was all career with really no volunteers other than we would sit around and we had

956
01:12:35,520 --> 01:12:38,600
more of a dark sense of humor, um, at that time.

957
01:12:38,600 --> 01:12:43,840
So it could have been the careers where I started as a volunteer, those guys were just

958
01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:51,040
trying to shield and protect me a little bit, or, um, maybe they just didn't talk about

959
01:12:51,040 --> 01:12:53,040
anything at all.

960
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:56,880
But once I became career, it was when that dark sense of humor started kind of coming

961
01:12:56,880 --> 01:13:04,800
out where I hear the difference between career and volunteer is more often than not volunteers

962
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:07,840
will live and work in the city that they're also volunteering in.

963
01:13:07,840 --> 01:13:12,840
So they'll have people they know a lot of times that they run on.

964
01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:15,640
They'll be reminded on every street and corner that they live.

965
01:13:15,640 --> 01:13:19,360
I mean, if I drive to Orlando, there's, I mean, we could go all over the place.

966
01:13:19,360 --> 01:13:23,040
I can tell you, oh yeah, this, you know, this dead prostitute at dumpster here, pedestrian

967
01:13:23,040 --> 01:13:25,480
versus taxi here, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

968
01:13:25,480 --> 01:13:28,040
But where I live, I don't have any of that.

969
01:13:28,040 --> 01:13:31,960
I did volunteer when I was, I ran, when I was in paramedic school with the local department

970
01:13:31,960 --> 01:13:33,760
and volunteered briefly.

971
01:13:33,760 --> 01:13:38,240
But, um, apart from a few deaths that we had on the ambulance, even then they weren't close

972
01:13:38,240 --> 01:13:39,240
to where I live.

973
01:13:39,240 --> 01:13:43,400
I don't have that, you know, Cala, which is awesome, but I just went and visited Anaheim.

974
01:13:43,400 --> 01:13:45,880
Um, it was a couple of years ago now and I was like, oh shit.

975
01:13:45,880 --> 01:13:46,880
Yeah.

976
01:13:46,880 --> 01:13:49,600
That person was cream there and that guy's head split open there.

977
01:13:49,600 --> 01:13:53,400
So when you look back now, I mean, you live and work in different places.

978
01:13:53,400 --> 01:13:58,680
Now what was that element for you while he was still volunteering in your own city?

979
01:13:58,680 --> 01:14:04,520
Uh, looking at it like that, very, very similar to what you just said.

980
01:14:04,520 --> 01:14:08,280
Um, and where I'm at now, it's so close.

981
01:14:08,280 --> 01:14:11,400
I still drive through there to go places and everything.

982
01:14:11,400 --> 01:14:17,480
So I experienced that as well currently as, as a career, even though I don't technically

983
01:14:17,480 --> 01:14:22,120
live in that city, but it's like I said, it's so close and so neighboring.

984
01:14:22,120 --> 01:14:27,520
I still go through that city for different things, to see friends or do different things.

985
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:40,020
And, um, it's between seven years as a volunteer here and then, um, 23 going on 24 now, um,

986
01:14:40,020 --> 01:14:41,020
it's kind of tough.

987
01:14:41,020 --> 01:14:48,480
No matter where I drive, um, there's going to be memories that, that come up or stories

988
01:14:48,480 --> 01:14:54,620
that I could tell of things that happened at various intersections or houses or parts

989
01:14:54,620 --> 01:14:57,880
of the area.

990
01:14:57,880 --> 01:15:02,480
And that used to be tough.

991
01:15:02,480 --> 01:15:11,800
I would avoid certain, certain areas, um, because I was, um, for the longest time by

992
01:15:11,800 --> 01:15:18,480
certain calls haunted by experiences and things that happened on calls.

993
01:15:18,480 --> 01:15:25,800
And I would always do my best, but sometimes it was inevitable and I could not, um, avoid

994
01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:29,000
going by a certain area.

995
01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:37,120
And I would feel my anxiety, my pulse rate, I would start sweating and things like that.

996
01:15:37,120 --> 01:15:43,120
And that was just, that was really, really tough until I learned to, um, get that help

997
01:15:43,120 --> 01:15:50,960
and navigate those borders through, um, EMDR really helped me process some of the tougher

998
01:15:50,960 --> 01:15:55,440
calls and driving by certain areas and everything like that.

999
01:15:55,440 --> 01:16:02,760
So, um, luckily things are, are just memories now and they don't affect me like they did

1000
01:16:02,760 --> 01:16:03,760
in the past.

1001
01:16:03,760 --> 01:16:11,760
I got them, uh, refiled from, from right here to the back of the filing box, but, um, kind

1002
01:16:11,760 --> 01:16:15,520
of just another thing I'd like to point out about the volunteers.

1003
01:16:15,520 --> 01:16:18,840
It wasn't, this wasn't me.

1004
01:16:18,840 --> 01:16:24,560
Um, but so many are, are volunteers now.

1005
01:16:24,560 --> 01:16:33,120
Um, they don't always have the luxury and the more remote volunteers and everything.

1006
01:16:33,120 --> 01:16:38,200
They'll have a pager, they could be at work, they could be at a ball game with their children

1007
01:16:38,200 --> 01:16:39,880
or whatever.

1008
01:16:39,880 --> 01:16:45,400
That pager goes off, they have to drop what they're doing and go respond on a call.

1009
01:16:45,400 --> 01:16:49,720
It could be a traumatic event, could be a cardiac arrest, fatality, whatever it may

1010
01:16:49,720 --> 01:16:50,720
be.

1011
01:16:50,720 --> 01:16:56,480
And once they're done running that call, they don't have the luxury like we do a lot of

1012
01:16:56,480 --> 01:17:01,560
times when we clear the scene, we're all on that rig together.

1013
01:17:01,560 --> 01:17:07,420
And you know, a lot of times the, the processing does start on the rig.

1014
01:17:07,420 --> 01:17:12,300
We start talking about it just over our headsets while we're driving back to the firehouse.

1015
01:17:12,300 --> 01:17:17,680
And then we get back to the firehouse and, um, maybe we'll wash the rig and while we're

1016
01:17:17,680 --> 01:17:24,480
out there scrubbing it or whatever, we'll just start bullshitting or making a few comments

1017
01:17:24,480 --> 01:17:27,280
here and there about the call or we'll go to the kitchen table.

1018
01:17:27,280 --> 01:17:31,480
Well, the volunteers, they clear up from the call.

1019
01:17:31,480 --> 01:17:32,480
They don't have that.

1020
01:17:32,480 --> 01:17:35,080
They don't have the camaraderie on the rig.

1021
01:17:35,080 --> 01:17:36,640
They don't have the, the kitchen table.

1022
01:17:36,640 --> 01:17:43,240
They can always go back to, they're going back to their, their kids ball game, um, their

1023
01:17:43,240 --> 01:17:46,960
full-time job, whatever it may be.

1024
01:17:46,960 --> 01:17:51,000
And that's, that's a tough position for them to be in.

1025
01:17:51,000 --> 01:17:58,040
Um, and I think so many times, uh, a lot of us don't think about that.

1026
01:17:58,040 --> 01:18:05,000
And a lot of people are just uneducated as to how big our volunteer system is in this

1027
01:18:05,000 --> 01:18:11,200
country and that's, that's the main portion of the U S fire services volunteers.

1028
01:18:11,200 --> 01:18:12,200
Yeah.

1029
01:18:12,200 --> 01:18:16,640
Well, I mean, firstly, it blows me away when you hear there are volunteer organizations

1030
01:18:16,640 --> 01:18:20,200
in suburban areas that obviously have a good tax base.

1031
01:18:20,200 --> 01:18:21,640
So me, to me, that's insanity.

1032
01:18:21,640 --> 01:18:23,040
That should be a career department.

1033
01:18:23,040 --> 01:18:24,040
I get it.

1034
01:18:24,040 --> 01:18:28,780
If you're rural Idaho somewhere, of course, and that's a different dynamic completely,

1035
01:18:28,780 --> 01:18:34,720
but I actually got a, an interesting perspective having worked in the fire service for 14 years

1036
01:18:34,720 --> 01:18:40,360
transitioned out five years ago, um, to do this, to try and be a voice from the outside.

1037
01:18:40,360 --> 01:18:44,600
And I had a cardiac arrest on a flight and we hadn't taken off from London yet.

1038
01:18:44,600 --> 01:18:52,200
I ended up and ironically, I just saw a fucking article about two weeks later, lady has, I

1039
01:18:52,200 --> 01:18:53,680
think she had more like chest pain.

1040
01:18:53,680 --> 01:18:59,040
I think she went to a rest and 15 cardiologists were on the plane and they gave her some,

1041
01:18:59,040 --> 01:19:01,160
who knows what nitro or whatever it was.

1042
01:19:01,160 --> 01:19:02,480
And you know, she was fine.

1043
01:19:02,480 --> 01:19:03,480
Well, no.

1044
01:19:03,480 --> 01:19:07,800
And in this flight, no one but me seemed to have any emergency medical experience whatsoever.

1045
01:19:07,800 --> 01:19:10,800
There was a nurse who was a sweetheart, but I don't think she was an emergency nurse by

1046
01:19:10,800 --> 01:19:11,800
any means.

1047
01:19:11,800 --> 01:19:15,720
Um, so, you know, let this code and did CPR on this poor guy.

1048
01:19:15,720 --> 01:19:19,360
And I've been, you know, talked about this a lot in the podcast.

1049
01:19:19,360 --> 01:19:21,000
I'm the Reaper as a medic.

1050
01:19:21,000 --> 01:19:25,640
Like if you go into cardiac arrest, I have not had a single save as an EMT and or a paramedic

1051
01:19:25,640 --> 01:19:27,400
in my whole career.

1052
01:19:27,400 --> 01:19:31,160
So just, you know, that's, that's why I don't gamble.

1053
01:19:31,160 --> 01:19:34,640
But um, you know, and it's, it's obviously because these are hearts that don't want to

1054
01:19:34,640 --> 01:19:35,640
come back.

1055
01:19:35,640 --> 01:19:41,600
These are, you know, AAAs and brain bleeds and all the things, but, um, work this code,

1056
01:19:41,600 --> 01:19:45,120
you know, ended up working it with the local fire department and ultimately the paramedics

1057
01:19:45,120 --> 01:19:48,800
from London finally begins to switch off compressions.

1058
01:19:48,800 --> 01:19:50,840
And you know, and then I said, do you need me at the moment?

1059
01:19:50,840 --> 01:19:52,320
It was super crowded back here now.

1060
01:19:52,320 --> 01:19:53,680
Um, and they were like, no, no.

1061
01:19:53,680 --> 01:19:59,680
So I went to the bathroom in the plane, wash the blood off my hands and take a seat.

1062
01:19:59,680 --> 01:20:02,600
And it was jarring and I, and I, and I was funny.

1063
01:20:02,600 --> 01:20:07,960
I did a video about a couple of days after I got back, cause I was talking to the, um,

1064
01:20:07,960 --> 01:20:10,200
the flight attendants too, cause they were obviously shaken.

1065
01:20:10,200 --> 01:20:14,960
Some of them went home and kudos to them for having the, the courage to ask for help that

1066
01:20:14,960 --> 01:20:15,960
way.

1067
01:20:15,960 --> 01:20:18,840
And then the rest of them cleaned up and then we flew and they served everyone, which was

1068
01:20:18,840 --> 01:20:19,840
so admirable.

1069
01:20:19,840 --> 01:20:22,600
But I was, um, they ended up upgrading me.

1070
01:20:22,600 --> 01:20:24,460
So I ended up right by the, by the cabin.

1071
01:20:24,460 --> 01:20:30,200
So I got to talk to all the, all the stewards and stewardesses or flight attendants.

1072
01:20:30,200 --> 01:20:33,280
But the whole point was it shook me for a couple of days.

1073
01:20:33,280 --> 01:20:36,720
And at first I'm like, fuck, you know, did I, did I lose my mojo?

1074
01:20:36,720 --> 01:20:43,160
And then I realized like, Oh, this is what it's supposed to feel like when someone dies.

1075
01:20:43,160 --> 01:20:47,680
But when we're, especially in career, like literally we will, you know, we'll get back

1076
01:20:47,680 --> 01:20:51,520
to the station, the engine, you know, if I'm on the rescue that day has already put all

1077
01:20:51,520 --> 01:20:53,400
the EMS stuff that we use aside.

1078
01:20:53,400 --> 01:20:56,240
We load up and then boom, off we go again.

1079
01:20:56,240 --> 01:21:01,600
Sometimes I'm gonna have my super bad last day at Orange County where three people died,

1080
01:21:01,600 --> 01:21:02,600
three different calls.

1081
01:21:02,600 --> 01:21:03,600
One guy was on fire.

1082
01:21:03,600 --> 01:21:08,880
One was rotting in the woods and the first one was a GI bleed cardiac arrest.

1083
01:21:08,880 --> 01:21:12,040
But you just clean your shit and then you go back into service.

1084
01:21:12,040 --> 01:21:19,480
And so I think for, for the career people, we don't realize that when, you know, we're

1085
01:21:19,480 --> 01:21:23,320
not feeling what we're supposed to feel because we can't, but that again gets compartmentalized.

1086
01:21:23,320 --> 01:21:28,880
But conversely, imagining that that's how the volunteers feel the moment they go back

1087
01:21:28,880 --> 01:21:34,760
to their garage or their home or whatever it is that they do, that's a lot not to process

1088
01:21:34,760 --> 01:21:35,760
as well.

1089
01:21:35,760 --> 01:21:39,880
So both those two fields, you know, have challenges in two different ways.

1090
01:21:39,880 --> 01:21:45,480
And I was kind of, you know, gifted this, this kind of insight into this one moment

1091
01:21:45,480 --> 01:21:48,960
five years after taking the uniform off myself.

1092
01:21:48,960 --> 01:21:56,880
Yeah, that's definitely true.

1093
01:21:56,880 --> 01:22:12,040
And it's almost to the point where the military, when people retire from the military, we do

1094
01:22:12,040 --> 01:22:19,400
or they do a transitioning period, things to try and help them transition better into

1095
01:22:19,400 --> 01:22:22,040
civilian life.

1096
01:22:22,040 --> 01:22:28,640
And I know this is kind of going a little bit around or still tying into what you're

1097
01:22:28,640 --> 01:22:33,640
talking about, but it's almost like we should start doing, we need to do more for us while

1098
01:22:33,640 --> 01:22:35,280
we're, we're in there.

1099
01:22:35,280 --> 01:22:40,360
But also when our members start getting to that point to transition out, do something

1100
01:22:40,360 --> 01:22:41,800
like that and let them know.

1101
01:22:41,800 --> 01:22:46,360
It's like, Hey, you're going to have the time on your hands when you do see things like

1102
01:22:46,360 --> 01:22:48,480
this.

1103
01:22:48,480 --> 01:22:51,960
It's going to affect you because you're not in the job anymore.

1104
01:22:51,960 --> 01:22:53,760
You didn't arrive on that.

1105
01:22:53,760 --> 01:23:02,960
And I know you and I, we talked about it briefly after that, that happened, but it's different

1106
01:23:02,960 --> 01:23:11,040
when you show up to that person in cardiac arrest and you have at least three other partners

1107
01:23:11,040 --> 01:23:14,680
or at least one other partner there with you, depending on what piece of equipment you arrive

1108
01:23:14,680 --> 01:23:16,360
on first.

1109
01:23:16,360 --> 01:23:19,880
But when you're there yourself, it's like, Holy shit.

1110
01:23:19,880 --> 01:23:24,400
And you don't have any of your equipment or anything like that.

1111
01:23:24,400 --> 01:23:26,840
And people are looking at you.

1112
01:23:26,840 --> 01:23:28,640
Hey, what's James going to do?

1113
01:23:28,640 --> 01:23:30,320
Come on, do something, James.

1114
01:23:30,320 --> 01:23:32,280
You're like, shit, I'm by myself.

1115
01:23:32,280 --> 01:23:34,240
I ain't got anything.

1116
01:23:34,240 --> 01:23:38,680
But then like you said, when it's, it's done, it's over.

1117
01:23:38,680 --> 01:23:41,640
There's those firefighters, they took control of it.

1118
01:23:41,640 --> 01:23:43,280
They don't need you anymore.

1119
01:23:43,280 --> 01:23:45,560
You can step aside.

1120
01:23:45,560 --> 01:23:50,640
And I mean, all I could do when I first heard that story from you, and then I reached out

1121
01:23:50,640 --> 01:23:56,240
to you was just feel for you.

1122
01:23:56,240 --> 01:24:02,360
And just imagine, I just imagine myself in that spot, just getting away from everything

1123
01:24:02,360 --> 01:24:08,680
and just stepping aside from everybody and going into the bathroom and throwing some

1124
01:24:08,680 --> 01:24:09,880
water on my face.

1125
01:24:09,880 --> 01:24:14,320
And I mean, first of all, cleaning up, like you said, we've got bodily fluids on us and

1126
01:24:14,320 --> 01:24:16,360
everything like that.

1127
01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:27,560
But just kind of processing everything that you've just went through and how it's affecting

1128
01:24:27,560 --> 01:24:32,320
you now as opposed to five years prior.

1129
01:24:32,320 --> 01:24:36,280
And those guys, they just, they don't get that the guys that were on the plane with

1130
01:24:36,280 --> 01:24:41,240
you that took over the first responders there.

1131
01:24:41,240 --> 01:24:45,680
Just like you said, they're, they'll restock right after that.

1132
01:24:45,680 --> 01:24:48,240
And the tones go off, they run the next one.

1133
01:24:48,240 --> 01:24:52,840
It could be another cardiac arrest could be somebody had just fallen and hurt their ankle

1134
01:24:52,840 --> 01:24:53,840
or something.

1135
01:24:53,840 --> 01:24:54,840
We don't know.

1136
01:24:54,840 --> 01:25:01,280
But they have very little time to process the volunteers.

1137
01:25:01,280 --> 01:25:07,080
They don't have any time really to process because they're going back to their full time

1138
01:25:07,080 --> 01:25:11,600
job or their family or whatever else is going on in the community.

1139
01:25:11,600 --> 01:25:12,600
And it's tough.

1140
01:25:12,600 --> 01:25:13,600
Absolutely.

1141
01:25:13,600 --> 01:25:18,280
Well, I think the transition as well, as we were talking about the reasons that we get

1142
01:25:18,280 --> 01:25:25,360
into the uniform, when we take that uniform off, the reverse happens.

1143
01:25:25,360 --> 01:25:29,440
Now all those coping mechanisms, all that healthy environment that you've built is now

1144
01:25:29,440 --> 01:25:30,680
stripped from you.

1145
01:25:30,680 --> 01:25:34,560
So I think that's another reason why we need to do a better job transitioning our retirees

1146
01:25:34,560 --> 01:25:39,360
or if someone gets hurt or if they're, as we'll get into taking off a mental health

1147
01:25:39,360 --> 01:25:43,880
or whatever it is, is that was your purpose.

1148
01:25:43,880 --> 01:25:45,000
That was your tribe.

1149
01:25:45,000 --> 01:25:48,520
That was your, obviously, as we talked about your adrenaline, all the things.

1150
01:25:48,520 --> 01:25:52,960
And now one day your ID doesn't work and the bay doors go down and that's it.

1151
01:25:52,960 --> 01:25:53,960
You're done.

1152
01:25:53,960 --> 01:25:57,320
And that is so jarring for first responders, military, especially.

1153
01:25:57,320 --> 01:26:01,320
And even if you watch the documentary, like the weight of gold, these Olympians, they

1154
01:26:01,320 --> 01:26:03,640
stand on that podium and then they're like, all right, that's it.

1155
01:26:03,640 --> 01:26:05,000
You aged out for the next one.

1156
01:26:05,000 --> 01:26:06,000
Here's your clap.

1157
01:26:06,000 --> 01:26:11,060
You're on the front of a Wheaties box for a couple of weeks and then you're done.

1158
01:26:11,060 --> 01:26:17,680
So I think we need to do a much better job because unlike the military as well, where

1159
01:26:17,680 --> 01:26:21,040
they have the VA, there's no VA.

1160
01:26:21,040 --> 01:26:22,480
And again, our military are blown away.

1161
01:26:22,480 --> 01:26:24,600
There's no VA for first responders.

1162
01:26:24,600 --> 01:26:28,800
It's like a year of Cobra for a thousand dollars a month and then go fuck yourself.

1163
01:26:28,800 --> 01:26:31,780
Basically is what it is for most of us.

1164
01:26:31,780 --> 01:26:37,360
So you've had everything stripped and now all the mental and physical trauma that you

1165
01:26:37,360 --> 01:26:41,160
took out of the job, you're left with nothing to deal with it.

1166
01:26:41,160 --> 01:26:43,540
No health insurance, no mental health resources.

1167
01:26:43,540 --> 01:26:45,240
So that's another area.

1168
01:26:45,240 --> 01:26:50,400
I think we've got to do a much better job on top of the fact that statistically, if

1169
01:26:50,400 --> 01:26:55,640
I had a brain bleed and my head exploded right in front of you now, I wouldn't be a firefighter

1170
01:26:55,640 --> 01:27:00,480
statistic even though my whole career is that's what I did because I ceased to exist on the

1171
01:27:00,480 --> 01:27:02,720
spreadsheet of the fire service.

1172
01:27:02,720 --> 01:27:07,000
So when you look at that, what is our real mental health death toll?

1173
01:27:07,000 --> 01:27:10,880
What is our real cancer death toll, cardiac, et cetera, et cetera.

1174
01:27:10,880 --> 01:27:17,000
It's probably 10, that's being conservative times the numbers that we publish every year.

1175
01:27:17,000 --> 01:27:19,560
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

1176
01:27:19,560 --> 01:27:25,760
And getting back to the difference between the military and the first responder community,

1177
01:27:25,760 --> 01:27:33,960
how we pointed out they have the VA, which isn't necessarily the greatest right now,

1178
01:27:33,960 --> 01:27:35,560
but at least it's a start.

1179
01:27:35,560 --> 01:27:37,800
I mean, it needs a lot of work.

1180
01:27:37,800 --> 01:27:42,760
But there's also for them, which this could be a good thing or a bad thing, depends on

1181
01:27:42,760 --> 01:27:43,760
how we want to look at it.

1182
01:27:43,760 --> 01:27:49,640
We already talked about alcohol, but they have the VFW, the American Legion, different

1183
01:27:49,640 --> 01:27:55,240
things like that when they transition out, they can still go to and sit around and break

1184
01:27:55,240 --> 01:28:02,360
bread or have a beer or whatever it may be with other like-minded people that are veterans.

1185
01:28:02,360 --> 01:28:06,460
Our community, when we retire, we don't necessarily have that.

1186
01:28:06,460 --> 01:28:13,200
We don't have VFW for firefighters or American Legion for firefighters or anything like that.

1187
01:28:13,200 --> 01:28:21,120
We have union halls if you retire and you stay on as an alumni or whatever.

1188
01:28:21,120 --> 01:28:22,120
And that's not everywhere.

1189
01:28:22,120 --> 01:28:27,720
Not every department has a local or even has their own union hall or whatever.

1190
01:28:27,720 --> 01:28:40,280
So it's important that we build up a retirement platform and camaraderie amongst our retirees

1191
01:28:40,280 --> 01:28:44,640
and include them into this.

1192
01:28:44,640 --> 01:28:48,000
My department does a pretty good job with that.

1193
01:28:48,000 --> 01:28:53,760
And it's building, they're doing a lot better, keep improving it on a regular basis, but

1194
01:28:53,760 --> 01:29:01,700
keeping the volunteers, excuse me, the retirees involved with events that are going on.

1195
01:29:01,700 --> 01:29:06,640
We have quarterly breakfasts we'll host at different firehouses where all the retirees

1196
01:29:06,640 --> 01:29:11,920
will come in and have breakfast so they're among all of the new people.

1197
01:29:11,920 --> 01:29:16,760
And they just feel like they still belong within our department, within our community

1198
01:29:16,760 --> 01:29:17,960
and everything.

1199
01:29:17,960 --> 01:29:20,360
So that's pretty good.

1200
01:29:20,360 --> 01:29:27,460
We just did cancer screenings for all of the members of our department, but we also opened

1201
01:29:27,460 --> 01:29:32,160
it up and included all of our retirees that wanted to get screened as well.

1202
01:29:32,160 --> 01:29:33,160
That's beautiful.

1203
01:29:33,160 --> 01:29:41,680
Yeah, we just, for the longest time, the fire service or first responder communities, it

1204
01:29:41,680 --> 01:29:47,520
just seemed like when members would retire and there was no real transition, like you

1205
01:29:47,520 --> 01:29:53,160
said, they just swipe out, clock out or whatever you want to call it for the last time and

1206
01:29:53,160 --> 01:29:58,080
they walk out that door and they're just stripped of their identity.

1207
01:29:58,080 --> 01:30:05,840
And one other thing that we can, one of many things that we can start teaching and instilling,

1208
01:30:05,840 --> 01:30:16,000
and this is Chris Moore's belief, not everybody might not agree with this, but the job can't

1209
01:30:16,000 --> 01:30:18,080
define us.

1210
01:30:18,080 --> 01:30:25,520
I know my job as a firefighter, it's been my entire adult life.

1211
01:30:25,520 --> 01:30:27,600
I've been a firefighter.

1212
01:30:27,600 --> 01:30:30,360
I'm a big part of me, but that's all it is.

1213
01:30:30,360 --> 01:30:31,880
It's a part of me.

1214
01:30:31,880 --> 01:30:34,760
It doesn't define me.

1215
01:30:34,760 --> 01:30:39,960
It's not who Chris Moore is as a human being and as a person.

1216
01:30:39,960 --> 01:30:47,160
When I walk away from here, whenever that may be, will I miss it?

1217
01:30:47,160 --> 01:30:48,160
Absolutely.

1218
01:30:48,160 --> 01:30:54,440
I'm going to miss it, but there's still going to be other things that serve me.

1219
01:30:54,440 --> 01:30:59,000
I'll find other ways that I can still serve the community because there are other ways

1220
01:30:59,000 --> 01:31:01,880
and other things that I can do.

1221
01:31:01,880 --> 01:31:08,400
Be it like you pointed out for yourself five years ago, when you transitioned out, you

1222
01:31:08,400 --> 01:31:09,400
got into this.

1223
01:31:09,400 --> 01:31:13,840
So you're tied in with the first responder community.

1224
01:31:13,840 --> 01:31:18,280
You are the first responder community and you're giving back through this.

1225
01:31:18,280 --> 01:31:23,800
There are lots of other ways and that's where that whole transitioning platform that we

1226
01:31:23,800 --> 01:31:30,600
should strive to try and establish within departments, just like the military has, they

1227
01:31:30,600 --> 01:31:35,240
help their members try and find jobs out in the private sector.

1228
01:31:35,240 --> 01:31:44,200
Let's try and find the next host of the biggest podcast for first responders ever.

1229
01:31:44,200 --> 01:31:49,600
Let's try and find something like that or where first responders can help startups and

1230
01:31:49,600 --> 01:31:55,680
peer support or mental health and wellness or whatever it may be.

1231
01:31:55,680 --> 01:32:00,280
This might not necessarily be one of the best things because when we talk about first responders,

1232
01:32:00,280 --> 01:32:05,520
a lot of times people forget about our dispatchers and our communications.

1233
01:32:05,520 --> 01:32:11,280
To me, they are the first responders.

1234
01:32:11,280 --> 01:32:19,400
If we have a police officer or firefighter that is retiring, if they're eligible to,

1235
01:32:19,400 --> 01:32:26,760
who else would be better than them at being a call taker or dispatcher?

1236
01:32:26,760 --> 01:32:31,800
They know all the lingo and they have the street smarts and everything.

1237
01:32:31,800 --> 01:32:35,920
Might not be the best for their mental health and wellness, but if it's something that they're

1238
01:32:35,920 --> 01:32:40,600
stable and they're willing and able to do, that might be a great transition for them.

1239
01:32:40,600 --> 01:32:44,760
Go do that for a little while or to help out or to give back.

1240
01:32:44,760 --> 01:32:49,380
Some kind of teaching programs, recruitment and retention.

1241
01:32:49,380 --> 01:32:53,880
Who would be better unless you get the old salty crusty guy who just hates everything

1242
01:32:53,880 --> 01:32:58,440
about where the fire service has gone to or whatever.

1243
01:32:58,440 --> 01:33:07,200
If you have the good positive guys that had a very good and positive productive career,

1244
01:33:07,200 --> 01:33:11,920
transition them to a recruitment and retention position.

1245
01:33:11,920 --> 01:33:13,240
Let them be the ones who go out.

1246
01:33:13,240 --> 01:33:22,340
We talked about we need transparency and honesty when we do the recruitments now.

1247
01:33:22,340 --> 01:33:23,340
Utilize them for that.

1248
01:33:23,340 --> 01:33:27,000
They have the proper skills and everything.

1249
01:33:27,000 --> 01:33:33,200
But I'm really seeing now more and more where a lot of people are transitioning into this

1250
01:33:33,200 --> 01:33:34,880
is by their choice and they're doing.

1251
01:33:34,880 --> 01:33:40,480
It's not like an organization that's helping with the transition, but getting more into

1252
01:33:40,480 --> 01:33:43,480
the health and wellness aspect of it.

1253
01:33:43,480 --> 01:33:47,120
They'll leave this career where they've been helping the community and they'll go back

1254
01:33:47,120 --> 01:33:53,040
into a career where they are helping other first responders.

1255
01:33:53,040 --> 01:34:00,480
And that's pretty impressive, pretty amazing to give to your local community for so long.

1256
01:34:00,480 --> 01:34:05,840
And now you're transitioning out and you're able to give back to your other family that

1257
01:34:05,840 --> 01:34:10,720
you gave 20, 30, even 40 plus years of your life to.

1258
01:34:10,720 --> 01:34:11,720
Yeah.

1259
01:34:11,720 --> 01:34:14,400
Well, I think that purpose is so important.

1260
01:34:14,400 --> 01:34:20,260
And I think the one of the areas again that we don't do a very good job is even ourselves

1261
01:34:20,260 --> 01:34:26,200
understanding that the skill set that you develop being an American firefighter, for

1262
01:34:26,200 --> 01:34:30,320
example, especially if you do in the EMS as well, I mean, you're a damn Swiss army knife

1263
01:34:30,320 --> 01:34:32,120
of skills.

1264
01:34:32,120 --> 01:34:36,720
And so to then go, oh, I'm going to go teach in the academy then is very short-sighted.

1265
01:34:36,720 --> 01:34:37,720
You know, yes, absolutely.

1266
01:34:37,720 --> 01:34:41,760
If that's what you're burning desire, you're that, you know, forceful entry guru, knock

1267
01:34:41,760 --> 01:34:47,200
yourself out, but understand that the teamwork, the problem solving, the cool under stress,

1268
01:34:47,200 --> 01:34:51,120
all these elements, you can apply in a thousand different ways.

1269
01:34:51,120 --> 01:34:56,040
But if you can find something that also infuses giving, infuses service, because that's what

1270
01:34:56,040 --> 01:34:57,760
led you into the uniform.

1271
01:34:57,760 --> 01:35:02,760
I think that's again, the kind of magic recipe for a healthy transition, you know, rest,

1272
01:35:02,760 --> 01:35:06,320
recover, take some time off, do it on your terms.

1273
01:35:06,320 --> 01:35:10,740
But how, how can you serve in a different way, whether it's, you know, a local animal

1274
01:35:10,740 --> 01:35:15,000
shelter or whether it's mentorship programs or something completely different, writing

1275
01:35:15,000 --> 01:35:21,040
a book, whatever it is that allows you to, to take what you learned from the fire service

1276
01:35:21,040 --> 01:35:25,560
and do something different because, you know, same as the cops that become security guards,

1277
01:35:25,560 --> 01:35:29,320
you know, a police officer has the same kind of gamut of skills.

1278
01:35:29,320 --> 01:35:32,640
They could do so many things that selling themselves short where they simply just put

1279
01:35:32,640 --> 01:35:34,640
on a different uniform.

1280
01:35:34,640 --> 01:35:36,240
Yeah.

1281
01:35:36,240 --> 01:35:42,080
And, um, there, there's so many other things that we can do to give back.

1282
01:35:42,080 --> 01:35:44,880
Like you said, an animal shelter or whatever.

1283
01:35:44,880 --> 01:35:53,400
I got a, um, a friend of mine up in Ohio and he's actually utilizing his skill set and

1284
01:35:53,400 --> 01:35:59,960
he's gotten onto city council and now he's running for an actual state office now.

1285
01:35:59,960 --> 01:36:08,400
And I mean, hell, what better way to give back than to have a, uh, ally of the fire

1286
01:36:08,400 --> 01:36:15,680
department be part of the, uh, the city council that can help get assets for their fire department,

1287
01:36:15,680 --> 01:36:21,280
help change the schedule to give them the 72 hours off or whatever it may, may be somebody

1288
01:36:21,280 --> 01:36:27,520
who understands it understands the importance of the health and wellness of all the members.

1289
01:36:27,520 --> 01:36:32,920
Um, that's a, uh, one additional way to make a change that my friend is doing up there.

1290
01:36:32,920 --> 01:36:37,160
Um, and now he's trying to go for the state level as well.

1291
01:36:37,160 --> 01:36:44,000
And um, I just think there's, there's so many ways that we can, we can give back.

1292
01:36:44,000 --> 01:36:45,000
Absolutely.

1293
01:36:45,000 --> 01:36:52,320
Well, I want to lead you through to March, 2022 and then, you know, the, the post-traumatic

1294
01:36:52,320 --> 01:36:56,680
growth, what the tools that you found that work, but you, you, you talked about your

1295
01:36:56,680 --> 01:36:59,680
childhood, you had seven years in the volunteer fire service.

1296
01:36:59,680 --> 01:37:01,000
Then you went to the career.

1297
01:37:01,000 --> 01:37:04,320
Obviously you're accumulating traumatic experiences.

1298
01:37:04,320 --> 01:37:06,440
You've got sleep deprivation, et cetera, et cetera.

1299
01:37:06,440 --> 01:37:11,440
So walk me through now, as you look back, this kind of downward spiral and where was

1300
01:37:11,440 --> 01:37:16,120
that dark place you found yourself in March last year or two years ago now?

1301
01:37:16,120 --> 01:37:17,120
Yeah.

1302
01:37:17,120 --> 01:37:26,840
So, um, I, like I touched on earlier, would never discuss anything, um, being gone for

1303
01:37:26,840 --> 01:37:33,520
24 hours at a time, wouldn't discuss any calls or hurts or hangups habits, anything with

1304
01:37:33,520 --> 01:37:34,520
my family.

1305
01:37:34,520 --> 01:37:36,320
I just pushed everything aside.

1306
01:37:36,320 --> 01:37:42,360
Um, I don't know where it started and I know I'm not the only one that's good.

1307
01:37:42,360 --> 01:37:48,400
It goes back to the, the me too stuff, but, um, some reason we think at times that we

1308
01:37:48,400 --> 01:37:54,000
have an S on our chest and we're the, the superhero and we got to protect our family

1309
01:37:54,000 --> 01:37:55,200
and our loved ones.

1310
01:37:55,200 --> 01:38:01,600
And by sharing any of the stuff that we see here that we exposed ourselves to that it's

1311
01:38:01,600 --> 01:38:03,880
going to hurt them.

1312
01:38:03,880 --> 01:38:14,200
And boy, was I wrong with that in, um, 2017 is, um, I ran it.

1313
01:38:14,200 --> 01:38:16,320
It was the beginning of, of the year.

1314
01:38:16,320 --> 01:38:20,160
It was, um, January, well, it was the first week of January.

1315
01:38:20,160 --> 01:38:23,680
I don't want to give out a whole lot of specifics cause people can kind of figure things out.

1316
01:38:23,680 --> 01:38:31,960
Um, if I do that and I don't want to violate any laws or anything, but we had a, a pediatric

1317
01:38:31,960 --> 01:38:37,680
call and we didn't get this child back.

1318
01:38:37,680 --> 01:38:48,560
Um, I thought I pushed that down, but, um, like we said earlier, right after that, that

1319
01:38:48,560 --> 01:38:52,560
call, uh, cleaned up everything and it was a busy shift.

1320
01:38:52,560 --> 01:38:53,880
We ran several more.

1321
01:38:53,880 --> 01:39:01,200
Well, that evening, um, getting in my bunk at the firehouse, um, I closed my eyes and

1322
01:39:01,200 --> 01:39:08,120
it was very soon after that was like that call that I ran early that morning was just

1323
01:39:08,120 --> 01:39:10,840
like coming at me a hundred miles an hour.

1324
01:39:10,840 --> 01:39:15,400
Um, that little boy's face and just everything.

1325
01:39:15,400 --> 01:39:23,960
And then I would like open my eyes up and, um, like you in the airplane, I went to the

1326
01:39:23,960 --> 01:39:27,800
restroom at the firehouse and splashed water on my face and just looked at myself in the

1327
01:39:27,800 --> 01:39:32,600
mirror and just trying to figure out what was going on and just kind of wrote it off.

1328
01:39:32,600 --> 01:39:36,840
Went back to bed and, um, closed my eyes again.

1329
01:39:36,840 --> 01:39:44,200
Well, now another call that happened 10 years earlier popped up into my head and it was

1330
01:39:44,200 --> 01:39:45,200
the same thing.

1331
01:39:45,200 --> 01:39:46,400
Like it was just coming at me like that.

1332
01:39:46,400 --> 01:39:50,040
No, it was a call that I never thought twice about.

1333
01:39:50,040 --> 01:39:57,560
Um, and I kept having these, I had, it was probably six other calls throughout my, at

1334
01:39:57,560 --> 01:40:06,440
that point, I think I was at a 27 years in and, um, just these calls that I never thought

1335
01:40:06,440 --> 01:40:10,520
twice about were just coming right back at me a hundred miles an hour.

1336
01:40:10,520 --> 01:40:17,040
Every time I closed my eyes that night, um, I got off shift the next morning and went

1337
01:40:17,040 --> 01:40:22,640
home, didn't say anything to anybody that night in my own bed and my own surroundings.

1338
01:40:22,640 --> 01:40:24,840
Um, same thing happened.

1339
01:40:24,840 --> 01:40:29,720
And this turned into a regular, um, thing.

1340
01:40:29,720 --> 01:40:30,800
It was just happening.

1341
01:40:30,800 --> 01:40:34,760
I thought I was losing my mind and going crazy.

1342
01:40:34,760 --> 01:40:43,360
Um, I had a leader in the department in, um, 2017, um, four months later knew that something

1343
01:40:43,360 --> 01:40:45,240
was going wrong with me.

1344
01:40:45,240 --> 01:40:47,720
He didn't know what, but reached out to me.

1345
01:40:47,720 --> 01:40:51,560
Um, we had lunch together, talked to him, told him what was going on.

1346
01:40:51,560 --> 01:40:52,880
He gave me some advice.

1347
01:40:52,880 --> 01:40:55,280
I thought that I was good.

1348
01:40:55,280 --> 01:40:58,920
Um, everything was, was fine and dandy.

1349
01:40:58,920 --> 01:41:02,760
I started talking to my, my family about issues that I was having.

1350
01:41:02,760 --> 01:41:04,880
I started exploring my faith.

1351
01:41:04,880 --> 01:41:11,120
Um, a year later in 2018 had another traumatic event and it started spiraling me down.

1352
01:41:11,120 --> 01:41:13,640
I started doing a lot of heavy drinking.

1353
01:41:13,640 --> 01:41:16,920
Um, I was telling myself I wasn't doing it to get drunk.

1354
01:41:16,920 --> 01:41:21,880
I was doing it to just suppress things and to help get myself to sleep.

1355
01:41:21,880 --> 01:41:29,560
Um, I liken it to the, uh, the old nightmare in Elm street movies where the kids were afraid

1356
01:41:29,560 --> 01:41:32,280
to go to sleep because of the nightmares.

1357
01:41:32,280 --> 01:41:34,040
That's where I was.

1358
01:41:34,040 --> 01:41:38,040
Um, I, I didn't know what was going on.

1359
01:41:38,040 --> 01:41:44,040
I didn't know what was up, what was down, what was real, what was a dream.

1360
01:41:44,040 --> 01:41:51,640
Finally in 2018, I got a number of a therapist from one of my mentors in the department.

1361
01:41:51,640 --> 01:41:57,960
And, uh, it was not just a therapist, but a therapist that works with first responders

1362
01:41:57,960 --> 01:42:02,760
and, um, getting the number and using it were two different things.

1363
01:42:02,760 --> 01:42:06,760
I sat on that number for a few more months before I finally made the phone call.

1364
01:42:06,760 --> 01:42:12,080
And that's where, like we, we said earlier, um, it was like 20 or 30 seconds after I dialed

1365
01:42:12,080 --> 01:42:17,240
that number and the person answered before I could get the words, help me out of my mouth.

1366
01:42:17,240 --> 01:42:18,960
And I finally got those out.

1367
01:42:18,960 --> 01:42:20,800
Um, this guy said he could help me.

1368
01:42:20,800 --> 01:42:27,600
He started going to therapy, um, saw him for quite a while before he had to shut down his,

1369
01:42:27,600 --> 01:42:31,480
his practice due to unforeseen circumstances.

1370
01:42:31,480 --> 01:42:32,480
And he didn't refer me.

1371
01:42:32,480 --> 01:42:33,960
He just left me kind of high and dry.

1372
01:42:33,960 --> 01:42:36,160
I had to find another therapist.

1373
01:42:36,160 --> 01:42:43,920
Um, I finally, after that was probably about two months was able to find another therapist

1374
01:42:43,920 --> 01:42:50,040
and started getting help with, with her and was doing really good.

1375
01:42:50,040 --> 01:42:56,000
She introduced me to EMDR and I was doing very good with that reprocessing everything

1376
01:42:56,000 --> 01:42:59,000
and started not having any issues.

1377
01:42:59,000 --> 01:43:04,200
We started backing off from weekly to biweekly to once a month.

1378
01:43:04,200 --> 01:43:11,200
And then, um, she recommended to me how I, she wanted to know how I felt about going,

1379
01:43:11,200 --> 01:43:15,280
um, just on an as needed basis.

1380
01:43:15,280 --> 01:43:19,840
And I agreed to that, which to me was the dumbest thing that I've ever done.

1381
01:43:19,840 --> 01:43:24,720
And I've done a lot of dumb shit in my life, as hard as it was to get into therapy and

1382
01:43:24,720 --> 01:43:28,320
make that phone call and go to appointments.

1383
01:43:28,320 --> 01:43:34,720
Um, I was going to get myself right back into that spot where it was difficult to, um, make

1384
01:43:34,720 --> 01:43:37,200
that phone call again.

1385
01:43:37,200 --> 01:43:49,600
So, um, 2021, it was, um, March of 2021 had a really bad call pediatric again.

1386
01:43:49,600 --> 01:43:56,040
Most of my calls have always been pediatrics that really bothered me the most.

1387
01:43:56,040 --> 01:44:03,040
And I did remember to reach out to her then got some help, processed everything and then

1388
01:44:03,040 --> 01:44:05,680
just kind of, we figured everything was good.

1389
01:44:05,680 --> 01:44:11,520
I was away from that as we were coming up on the one year anniversary of that call in

1390
01:44:11,520 --> 01:44:15,440
March of 22.

1391
01:44:15,440 --> 01:44:17,920
I just started getting more and more anxious.

1392
01:44:17,920 --> 01:44:24,840
I started having flashbacks about that call with the, the anniversary of it coming up.

1393
01:44:24,840 --> 01:44:28,400
And it was, um, it was very painful.

1394
01:44:28,400 --> 01:44:34,480
I was drinking, started drinking a lot more than just to try and suppress those feelings

1395
01:44:34,480 --> 01:44:37,720
and everything that was going on.

1396
01:44:37,720 --> 01:44:43,280
Um, throughout all of this, I was spending a lot of money that I didn't have in running

1397
01:44:43,280 --> 01:44:45,160
up debt.

1398
01:44:45,160 --> 01:44:54,440
Um, not proud of any of this stuff, but, um, um, extramarital issues.

1399
01:44:54,440 --> 01:45:01,360
I was looking for that quick release outside of my marriage.

1400
01:45:01,360 --> 01:45:13,520
Long story short, I was on shift to March 15th of 2022 and, um, just decided I didn't

1401
01:45:13,520 --> 01:45:19,000
want to deal with this with life and these flashbacks and everything anymore.

1402
01:45:19,000 --> 01:45:20,400
I was, it was out of therapy.

1403
01:45:20,400 --> 01:45:22,160
It was on an as needed basis.

1404
01:45:22,160 --> 01:45:25,480
I didn't want to make that tough phone call again.

1405
01:45:25,480 --> 01:45:30,840
I laid in my bunk that night in between calls.

1406
01:45:30,840 --> 01:45:41,400
I had, um, I sent a lot of people text messages, nothing to tip my head or show my cards, but

1407
01:45:41,400 --> 01:45:45,200
it was just my way of saying goodbye to friends.

1408
01:45:45,200 --> 01:45:54,440
And I wrote a letter, um, I composed on my phone to my, my wife at the time that I wasn't

1409
01:45:54,440 --> 01:45:56,440
going to do it at work.

1410
01:45:56,440 --> 01:46:04,200
I thought about it, but I thought about how, um, I knew regardless, it was going to hurt

1411
01:46:04,200 --> 01:46:09,680
my coworkers, but I didn't want to do it at the firehouse.

1412
01:46:09,680 --> 01:46:11,920
I was going to wait until the next morning.

1413
01:46:11,920 --> 01:46:15,880
I was like, maybe we'll get a fire tonight or get something where something could happen

1414
01:46:15,880 --> 01:46:16,960
tonight, but I don't know.

1415
01:46:16,960 --> 01:46:20,720
But I just wanted to go home next morning.

1416
01:46:20,720 --> 01:46:22,440
My relief came in early.

1417
01:46:22,440 --> 01:46:28,080
Um, normally I'll sit around the station, have a cup of coffee with, uh, my crew getting

1418
01:46:28,080 --> 01:46:32,120
off and the crew coming in to shoot the shit with everybody for quite a while.

1419
01:46:32,120 --> 01:46:38,440
But that morning I gave a quick turnover to the other officer coming in to relieve me.

1420
01:46:38,440 --> 01:46:46,360
And um, I just walked past everybody, went out to my car and started heading home and

1421
01:46:46,360 --> 01:46:48,800
about less than a mile from my house.

1422
01:46:48,800 --> 01:46:56,880
I pulled over and looked at my ring doorbell, just pulled that up to see if my wife or son

1423
01:46:56,880 --> 01:46:59,100
were still there.

1424
01:46:59,100 --> 01:47:06,880
And once I saw they were gone, I continued home and said, I already had everything planned.

1425
01:47:06,880 --> 01:47:11,480
I didn't want anything messy because I knew my son would be coming home from school later

1426
01:47:11,480 --> 01:47:12,480
that day.

1427
01:47:12,480 --> 01:47:17,640
And um, like I said, regardless, people are going to be traumatized.

1428
01:47:17,640 --> 01:47:19,320
People that I love are going to be traumatized.

1429
01:47:19,320 --> 01:47:23,640
I just wasn't thinking in the right mind, but I just wanted to look like dad went to

1430
01:47:23,640 --> 01:47:27,880
sleep and he couldn't wake me up.

1431
01:47:27,880 --> 01:47:39,000
So um, I had a, um, a bottle of, um, it was probably close to about 50 Xanax.

1432
01:47:39,000 --> 01:47:40,000
That was the prescription.

1433
01:47:40,000 --> 01:47:44,480
That was probably about 42 Xanax were still in this bottle.

1434
01:47:44,480 --> 01:47:49,680
And I took the whole bottle and rinsed it down with a fifth of bourbon.

1435
01:47:49,680 --> 01:47:54,680
I sent one more text out and I sent the letter to my wife.

1436
01:47:54,680 --> 01:48:03,000
And um, the, I have a couple of memories of, I know, I guess a neighbor got contacted and

1437
01:48:03,000 --> 01:48:04,000
came over.

1438
01:48:04,000 --> 01:48:10,440
Um, one of the members of the, my department came over and the next thing I know, I'm waking

1439
01:48:10,440 --> 01:48:19,160
up in the hospital, um, connected to machines and um, looked to my side and my wife and

1440
01:48:19,160 --> 01:48:23,520
my son were at my side at that moment.

1441
01:48:23,520 --> 01:48:32,560
And it was then, and I know when we think things are so tough and so hard, we're just

1442
01:48:32,560 --> 01:48:34,880
not thinking right.

1443
01:48:34,880 --> 01:48:40,000
That we, there was no way out or we're going crazy or whatever it may be that we just got

1444
01:48:40,000 --> 01:48:41,000
to end our life.

1445
01:48:41,000 --> 01:48:50,720
Well, it was when I woke up and I saw them beside me that it truly struck me that, um,

1446
01:48:50,720 --> 01:48:53,120
I wasn't just ending my life.

1447
01:48:53,120 --> 01:48:55,720
I wasn't stopping the pain.

1448
01:48:55,720 --> 01:48:56,720
That's what I wanted to do.

1449
01:48:56,720 --> 01:49:03,160
I wanted to stop the pain and everything that I was feeling and experiencing and going through.

1450
01:49:03,160 --> 01:49:09,200
Um, I was passing, I was stopping my life and I was just passing the pain and the hurt

1451
01:49:09,200 --> 01:49:15,880
and everything along to my wife and my son that were right there at my bedside in the

1452
01:49:15,880 --> 01:49:17,440
hospital.

1453
01:49:17,440 --> 01:49:23,400
I saw that on their face, um, the hurt and everything.

1454
01:49:23,400 --> 01:49:29,960
Um, but I saw the love, um, from both of them also.

1455
01:49:29,960 --> 01:49:37,040
And I just, I told myself never again, never again.

1456
01:49:37,040 --> 01:49:45,920
And um, I spent several days close to a week, it was five days in the hospital before I

1457
01:49:45,920 --> 01:49:48,520
was able to get released.

1458
01:49:48,520 --> 01:49:57,720
And um, when I got out of the hospital, um, I had a lot of guilt and shame.

1459
01:49:57,720 --> 01:50:03,560
A lot of people, friends wanted to come and visit me.

1460
01:50:03,560 --> 01:50:09,360
And um, I just, I didn't want to, I didn't want to see people.

1461
01:50:09,360 --> 01:50:17,360
Um, cause like I said, I just felt so ashamed of what I did and so guilty.

1462
01:50:17,360 --> 01:50:21,760
But one of my, my good friends, he lives out in California.

1463
01:50:21,760 --> 01:50:26,680
He's a retired police officer.

1464
01:50:26,680 --> 01:50:32,720
He told me about a program that he had been through and that's where I learned about Jake

1465
01:50:32,720 --> 01:50:36,920
Clark and Save a Warrior.

1466
01:50:36,920 --> 01:50:49,720
And it's for veterans that have, um, post-traumatic stress and or suicidal ideations and for first

1467
01:50:49,720 --> 01:50:51,760
responders as well.

1468
01:50:51,760 --> 01:50:56,240
And he told me, he said, man, all you gotta do, you just go to their website and you just

1469
01:50:56,240 --> 01:51:00,840
put your information in and somebody will reach out to you and they'll have a phone

1470
01:51:00,840 --> 01:51:01,840
call.

1471
01:51:01,840 --> 01:51:06,580
It's just a conversation and they'll determine if it's the right program for you.

1472
01:51:06,580 --> 01:51:07,880
And it's a nonprofit.

1473
01:51:07,880 --> 01:51:10,120
If you get accepted, they're out in Ohio.

1474
01:51:10,120 --> 01:51:16,400
They originally started out in Malibu, California, but he's like, if you get accepted, all you

1475
01:51:16,400 --> 01:51:18,000
have to do is get there.

1476
01:51:18,000 --> 01:51:21,640
He said they, they take care of the rest.

1477
01:51:21,640 --> 01:51:23,120
So I did that.

1478
01:51:23,120 --> 01:51:26,240
Um, submitted all my information online.

1479
01:51:26,240 --> 01:51:37,360
Somebody contacted me fairly quickly and had a, um, amazing, but tough conversation.

1480
01:51:37,360 --> 01:51:45,400
And I was just open and honest for probably the first time ever with anything.

1481
01:51:45,400 --> 01:51:50,360
And I realized that that's where it at, where it's at.

1482
01:51:50,360 --> 01:51:57,440
If we can't be open and honest about things that we're feeling and struggling with and

1483
01:51:57,440 --> 01:52:02,520
dealing with, then, um, we're not going to get anything out of it.

1484
01:52:02,520 --> 01:52:06,760
You get out of things, what you put into it.

1485
01:52:06,760 --> 01:52:11,400
And they accepted me into the program and came up with a date.

1486
01:52:11,400 --> 01:52:19,000
It was the, um, the last days of April and the first couple of days of May that I got

1487
01:52:19,000 --> 01:52:23,720
accepted, um, attended Sable Warrior in Hillsborough, Ohio.

1488
01:52:23,720 --> 01:52:25,060
So flew into Cincinnati.

1489
01:52:25,060 --> 01:52:33,040
They picked me up and it was myself and, um, seven other first responders from all across

1490
01:52:33,040 --> 01:52:38,080
the country at that point were, um, were there.

1491
01:52:38,080 --> 01:52:47,440
And I met Jake Clark, the founder of Sable Warrior, Adam Carr, um, another, uh, another

1492
01:52:47,440 --> 01:52:48,440
great man.

1493
01:52:48,440 --> 01:52:53,800
The somebody that I've met affiliated with this program has just been top notch, just

1494
01:52:53,800 --> 01:52:54,800
amazing.

1495
01:52:54,800 --> 01:53:01,360
Um, their only skin in the game is that they want to help others.

1496
01:53:01,360 --> 01:53:05,240
And um, I learned about ACEs.

1497
01:53:05,240 --> 01:53:08,180
This was a, a 72 hour program.

1498
01:53:08,180 --> 01:53:11,600
They literally have a clock that they put in the room.

1499
01:53:11,600 --> 01:53:15,940
When it starts, they, it's set at 72 hours and they hit the button and starts the countdown

1500
01:53:15,940 --> 01:53:16,940
from 72 hours.

1501
01:53:16,940 --> 01:53:24,480
And they asked all of us, um, who has doubts?

1502
01:53:24,480 --> 01:53:27,680
And um, I wasn't being an asshole or anything like that.

1503
01:53:27,680 --> 01:53:31,680
And just being where I want it to be for, for now on the rest of my life, I wanted to

1504
01:53:31,680 --> 01:53:33,160
be open and honest and candid.

1505
01:53:33,160 --> 01:53:37,000
I raised my hand and I told them and they wanted to know why.

1506
01:53:37,000 --> 01:53:44,320
And I was like, I've been in therapy off and on for, um, five years and it hasn't done

1507
01:53:44,320 --> 01:53:45,320
a whole lot for me.

1508
01:53:45,320 --> 01:53:48,960
I just had a suicide attempt a month ago and you think you're going to be able to help

1509
01:53:48,960 --> 01:53:53,240
me in 72 hours and make a difference.

1510
01:53:53,240 --> 01:53:59,360
And they said that was fair, but they just wanted me to promise them that I would lean

1511
01:53:59,360 --> 01:54:04,120
in and play the game, be open, be honest.

1512
01:54:04,120 --> 01:54:05,120
And I was like, you got it.

1513
01:54:05,120 --> 01:54:07,840
Cause I, I want it to be fixed.

1514
01:54:07,840 --> 01:54:09,240
And I did that.

1515
01:54:09,240 --> 01:54:18,120
And brother at the end of that 72 hours, all of the, the, the crying and the, uh, just

1516
01:54:18,120 --> 01:54:22,920
the emotions and everything that I went through during that time period with these seven

1517
01:54:22,920 --> 01:54:29,700
other first responders, it, it fixed me.

1518
01:54:29,700 --> 01:54:32,320
And it's not just those 72 hours and you're done.

1519
01:54:32,320 --> 01:54:33,760
It's every day of my life.

1520
01:54:33,760 --> 01:54:39,000
After that, there's things that, that I'm doing and it's a community, um, that I believe

1521
01:54:39,000 --> 01:54:41,040
they just started today.

1522
01:54:41,040 --> 01:54:47,040
I think it was class 224 or cohort number 224 that they've done.

1523
01:54:47,040 --> 01:54:49,400
And it's just, it's amazing.

1524
01:54:49,400 --> 01:54:55,880
The community that we have of alumni that have been through that, um, me and those seven

1525
01:54:55,880 --> 01:55:00,240
guys, we still keep in touch every day to this day.

1526
01:55:00,240 --> 01:55:04,520
And we've been out over a year and a half now.

1527
01:55:04,520 --> 01:55:10,480
And, um, we talk about our fire academies and police academies and all that, and the

1528
01:55:10,480 --> 01:55:18,540
bonds that we make when we go through the police or fire academy, how strong those are.

1529
01:55:18,540 --> 01:55:24,640
The bond I made with these seven guys and 72 hours is a stronger bond than anybody I

1530
01:55:24,640 --> 01:55:25,840
went through the academy with.

1531
01:55:25,840 --> 01:55:30,200
And those are some pretty strong bonds that I have with those guys too.

1532
01:55:30,200 --> 01:55:37,920
But I'm just everything we opened up, it was a safe place for us and they're safe men that

1533
01:55:37,920 --> 01:55:43,360
we were able to share things with and experiences and talk about the childhood experiences and

1534
01:55:43,360 --> 01:55:46,640
everything else that we've seen and we dealt with.

1535
01:55:46,640 --> 01:55:56,120
And a lot of it is just about being in the present and getting unstuck when, when things

1536
01:55:56,120 --> 01:55:57,720
get you stuck in everything.

1537
01:55:57,720 --> 01:56:06,760
And there's so many analogies and, um, things that we like to utilize and they utilized

1538
01:56:06,760 --> 01:56:08,400
in that.

1539
01:56:08,400 --> 01:56:13,760
But when you, you kind of sit back and you hear a lot of this stuff, it's just like,

1540
01:56:13,760 --> 01:56:14,760
holy shit.

1541
01:56:14,760 --> 01:56:19,800
And when you started looking at it, they like, like, we like to use the term our, our soil

1542
01:56:19,800 --> 01:56:25,720
goggles and the, these glasses, the way we see life now and look at things in a different

1543
01:56:25,720 --> 01:56:33,000
perspective and when you slow things down and you're not worried about things that happened

1544
01:56:33,000 --> 01:56:37,580
in the past, because that shit's already done, it's already over with.

1545
01:56:37,580 --> 01:56:41,920
That's just our memories playing tricks with us or fucking with us or whatever you want

1546
01:56:41,920 --> 01:56:44,120
to want to call it.

1547
01:56:44,120 --> 01:56:49,840
And the future is something, it's our imagination stuff that's never even happened yet.

1548
01:56:49,840 --> 01:56:52,120
And we don't even know if it's going to happen.

1549
01:56:52,120 --> 01:56:54,880
Nobody can predict the future or anything like that.

1550
01:56:54,880 --> 01:57:03,320
So it's all about just being in the present and doing more things internally for our mental

1551
01:57:03,320 --> 01:57:04,320
health.

1552
01:57:04,320 --> 01:57:12,960
They introduced me to warrior meditation and they, they want us to do at least one 20 minute

1553
01:57:12,960 --> 01:57:17,120
meditation a day, if not two.

1554
01:57:17,120 --> 01:57:26,480
And to this day, I can count on one finger in a year and a half now, how many times I've

1555
01:57:26,480 --> 01:57:28,280
missed a day of meditation.

1556
01:57:28,280 --> 01:57:32,480
Usually I get at least my two meditations in a day, but if not, it's always at least

1557
01:57:32,480 --> 01:57:36,680
one except for one time I, I've missed it.

1558
01:57:36,680 --> 01:57:42,120
And I didn't think that meditation was for me when they first started talking about it

1559
01:57:42,120 --> 01:57:43,520
there during the program.

1560
01:57:43,520 --> 01:57:47,240
And I was like, I can't do that shit.

1561
01:57:47,240 --> 01:57:50,880
I was like, that's what the, we had a couple of guys that were there from California.

1562
01:57:50,880 --> 01:57:53,680
I was like, that's for these California assholes here.

1563
01:57:53,680 --> 01:57:59,640
The tree huggers and granola people and all that.

1564
01:57:59,640 --> 01:58:06,160
I'm just as a first responder, we're always on guard and hyper vigilant and on point.

1565
01:58:06,160 --> 01:58:11,520
I was like, I can't get comfortable enough to just get myself in a state to clear my

1566
01:58:11,520 --> 01:58:15,000
mind and just free it of everything.

1567
01:58:15,000 --> 01:58:19,840
And Adam Carr told me, he said, man, he goes, there is no such thing as a bad meditation.

1568
01:58:19,840 --> 01:58:21,760
He goes, just keep at it.

1569
01:58:21,760 --> 01:58:26,280
He's like, usually he said it could take up to two weeks before you, you finally start

1570
01:58:26,280 --> 01:58:27,280
loosening up enough.

1571
01:58:27,280 --> 01:58:31,760
He's like just 20 minutes once a day, preferably twice.

1572
01:58:31,760 --> 01:58:37,320
And he goes, if you just sit there and you're still tense the whole time, oh, well, he goes,

1573
01:58:37,320 --> 01:58:40,400
that was still your body doing nothing for 20 minutes.

1574
01:58:40,400 --> 01:58:43,080
So it literally took me close to the two weeks.

1575
01:58:43,080 --> 01:58:46,200
I think it was about 10 days.

1576
01:58:46,200 --> 01:58:50,280
And on that day, I just fell into it.

1577
01:58:50,280 --> 01:58:55,680
My whole body just kind of was able to sit down and just relax and get into it.

1578
01:58:55,680 --> 01:59:01,000
And I'm still to that point today at the conference in Ohio.

1579
01:59:01,000 --> 01:59:05,520
They actually had meditation in the mornings leading up to the conference.

1580
01:59:05,520 --> 01:59:12,600
And it was really, really cool to see so many people get introduced to it and to go on.

1581
01:59:12,600 --> 01:59:18,600
But my mental health and wellness, just from doing that, I reflect on if I'm doing one

1582
01:59:18,600 --> 01:59:24,840
in the evening, reflect on things that have happened throughout the day.

1583
01:59:24,840 --> 01:59:29,440
And then even in the morning when I do those, I kind of think about the past day, anything

1584
01:59:29,440 --> 01:59:35,400
that I feel is unresolved or issues like that.

1585
01:59:35,400 --> 01:59:44,280
I've done the self-help, the meditation when I get back from a troubling call.

1586
01:59:44,280 --> 01:59:50,880
I'll just take myself aside and I'll just process the call in my head, just think about

1587
01:59:50,880 --> 01:59:51,880
it.

1588
01:59:51,880 --> 01:59:57,680
And then I'll just turn the lights down and I'll do my meditation for 20 minutes and just

1589
01:59:57,680 --> 02:00:01,720
kind of, it helps me just clear the call and just process it.

1590
02:00:01,720 --> 02:00:07,320
And dude, I'm telling you, I am living just from, I mean, there's a lot of other things

1591
02:00:07,320 --> 02:00:08,900
that we do.

1592
02:00:08,900 --> 02:00:13,360
Like I said, every day it's something, you've got to do the work.

1593
02:00:13,360 --> 02:00:22,800
But I'm living my best life ever right now.

1594
02:00:22,800 --> 02:00:24,600
I know you and I discussed it.

1595
02:00:24,600 --> 02:00:33,000
I almost made my entire career as a firefighter without getting a divorce.

1596
02:00:33,000 --> 02:00:43,000
That is one of the unfortunate things about my 2022 was all of that.

1597
02:00:43,000 --> 02:00:45,440
It was just too much to really save my marriage.

1598
02:00:45,440 --> 02:00:49,280
And that's not a knock on my ex-wife or anything like that.

1599
02:00:49,280 --> 02:00:54,080
She was an angel throughout everything.

1600
02:00:54,080 --> 02:00:56,920
We knew that I had issues and stuff going on.

1601
02:00:56,920 --> 02:01:03,560
And once I started talking about it, she had always stood by my side and was always there

1602
02:01:03,560 --> 02:01:09,480
for me, always encouraged me, helped me, got me help that I needed.

1603
02:01:09,480 --> 02:01:13,120
Anything that I could have ever asked for, she was always there.

1604
02:01:13,120 --> 02:01:18,240
But when I talked about the internal drug store and trying to get those quick dopamine

1605
02:01:18,240 --> 02:01:22,880
releases, one of those releases for me was the extramarital stuff.

1606
02:01:22,880 --> 02:01:29,280
And that was the thing that got to be too much when that came to light for the marriage.

1607
02:01:29,280 --> 02:01:33,560
And it was just, I mean, I know it was a hard thing to accept either way, but it was a trust

1608
02:01:33,560 --> 02:01:35,320
thing was the main thing.

1609
02:01:35,320 --> 02:01:40,280
She'd be able to move on past stuff, but she would never have been able to move on past

1610
02:01:40,280 --> 02:01:42,200
the whole trust.

1611
02:01:42,200 --> 02:01:47,520
And we know trust, you don't have trust in any kind of relationship, be it a work relationship

1612
02:01:47,520 --> 02:01:49,920
or personal relationship or whatever.

1613
02:01:49,920 --> 02:01:52,840
You're kind of screwed from the get go.

1614
02:01:52,840 --> 02:02:02,000
So once we lost that, we realized that we needed to just kind of dissolve the relationship

1615
02:02:02,000 --> 02:02:04,120
in our marriage.

1616
02:02:04,120 --> 02:02:10,800
And for what it is, we left on as good of terms as could be.

1617
02:02:10,800 --> 02:02:16,000
And like I said, I'll never speak bad of her because she has a great understanding of being

1618
02:02:16,000 --> 02:02:21,000
a first responder spouse and how it affects the whole family dynamic.

1619
02:02:21,000 --> 02:02:28,600
Since then, I've met another beautiful woman inside and out.

1620
02:02:28,600 --> 02:02:30,900
She's an alumni of Save a Warrior also.

1621
02:02:30,900 --> 02:02:39,520
So we have a lot in common and the whole accountability thing that I have with my cohort brothers

1622
02:02:39,520 --> 02:02:44,080
that I went through, her and I, we hold each other to the same standards as well.

1623
02:02:44,080 --> 02:02:51,200
And we recognize things and call each other out and call bullshit out or whatever.

1624
02:02:51,200 --> 02:02:54,280
And it's like, hey, I noticed you weren't meditating the other day.

1625
02:02:54,280 --> 02:02:55,280
What's up with that?

1626
02:02:55,280 --> 02:03:00,560
And we just put a foot in each other's ass and be sure that we're on the straight and

1627
02:03:00,560 --> 02:03:01,560
narrow.

1628
02:03:01,560 --> 02:03:11,320
But the main thing, like I said, dude, it's just the whole open and honest transparency

1629
02:03:11,320 --> 02:03:13,840
with everything.

1630
02:03:13,840 --> 02:03:17,040
There is nothing at all that is off limits.

1631
02:03:17,040 --> 02:03:22,400
There's nothing I'm afraid to talk about except for the possibility of marriage in the future.

1632
02:03:22,400 --> 02:03:28,120
So that gets kind of scary thinking or talking about that.

1633
02:03:28,120 --> 02:03:31,280
But all seriousness, there's nothing.

1634
02:03:31,280 --> 02:03:38,800
And I think when you can live clear and free like that, I just think it's a good place

1635
02:03:38,800 --> 02:03:39,800
to be.

1636
02:03:39,800 --> 02:03:43,440
It's a good place to start.

1637
02:03:43,440 --> 02:03:46,280
And I love it.

1638
02:03:46,280 --> 02:03:48,960
I share that with so many people.

1639
02:03:48,960 --> 02:03:53,880
I know at the conference in Ohio, since that's where Sable Warrior is, I know there was a

1640
02:03:53,880 --> 02:03:56,600
lot of Sable Warrior alumni that was there.

1641
02:03:56,600 --> 02:03:58,720
I got to connect with a lot of them.

1642
02:03:58,720 --> 02:04:03,040
Jim is actually Sable Warrior alumni as well.

1643
02:04:03,040 --> 02:04:08,000
And it's just a brother and sisterhood.

1644
02:04:08,000 --> 02:04:14,280
And we do the whole, they say it takes a tribe to help people and all that.

1645
02:04:14,280 --> 02:04:17,160
Well, that's our tribe is the Sable Warrior.

1646
02:04:17,160 --> 02:04:23,280
And we spread it on to other first responders and organizations and our military and stuff

1647
02:04:23,280 --> 02:04:25,320
like that.

1648
02:04:25,320 --> 02:04:33,520
And I'm just forever grateful and thankful to that organization and Jay Clark for him

1649
02:04:33,520 --> 02:04:40,600
starting it out of his trunk in California years ago with just, he just wanted to save

1650
02:04:40,600 --> 02:04:41,880
one person.

1651
02:04:41,880 --> 02:04:42,880
That's it.

1652
02:04:42,880 --> 02:04:47,600
Just save one is one of the mantras there.

1653
02:04:47,600 --> 02:04:50,640
And shit, he saved a lot more than one.

1654
02:04:50,640 --> 02:04:51,640
He saved this one.

1655
02:04:51,640 --> 02:04:53,120
He came back for me.

1656
02:04:53,120 --> 02:04:56,160
That's another thing he said, we came back for you.

1657
02:04:56,160 --> 02:05:01,880
And I text Jake, he's on a group text with me and my cohort brothers.

1658
02:05:01,880 --> 02:05:05,280
And I thank him often.

1659
02:05:05,280 --> 02:05:10,160
And when we come up on our anniversary, I'll let him know that also.

1660
02:05:10,160 --> 02:05:14,840
I still living in Virginia, it's kind of hard to get back to Ohio, but I want to go out

1661
02:05:14,840 --> 02:05:19,920
there and volunteer and help with a future cohort as well.

1662
02:05:19,920 --> 02:05:20,920
Beautiful.

1663
02:05:20,920 --> 02:05:26,760
Well, I mean, firstly, thank you for sharing that because this is the mental health conversation

1664
02:05:26,760 --> 02:05:27,760
needs to happen.

1665
02:05:27,760 --> 02:05:29,880
It's not the doom and gloom.

1666
02:05:29,880 --> 02:05:31,080
Oh, it's so sad.

1667
02:05:31,080 --> 02:05:33,640
You know, I'll live with it for the rest of my life.

1668
02:05:33,640 --> 02:05:38,620
I don't think that's the reality of 99% of these stories is it's that there's this post

1669
02:05:38,620 --> 02:05:39,920
traumatic growth.

1670
02:05:39,920 --> 02:05:41,600
And I think that we talk about stigma.

1671
02:05:41,600 --> 02:05:43,760
I think we're past the stigma.

1672
02:05:43,760 --> 02:05:48,160
I think most of us talking about, even as you said, if some people don't accept it,

1673
02:05:48,160 --> 02:05:49,980
it's out there now, whether you like it or not.

1674
02:05:49,980 --> 02:05:52,520
But what we need to infuse now is hope.

1675
02:05:52,520 --> 02:05:57,960
Like the solutions, the giant toolbox that is available from EMDR and save a warrior

1676
02:05:57,960 --> 02:06:02,120
to psychedelics and equine therapy and everything in between.

1677
02:06:02,120 --> 02:06:07,000
I wanted to circle back to your realization, though, when you woke up, because I think

1678
02:06:07,000 --> 02:06:11,440
this is an important part that you hardly ever hear when it comes to suicide.

1679
02:06:11,440 --> 02:06:16,860
And you know, it's not on the posters, not on most of the conversations.

1680
02:06:16,860 --> 02:06:20,920
When a lot of us was thinking about suicide, let's say 20 years ago, when I say thinking

1681
02:06:20,920 --> 02:06:27,080
about other people struggling with it, you're like, oh, how cowardly, how could they, you

1682
02:06:27,080 --> 02:06:31,500
know, you know, you think about your kids, all these things.

1683
02:06:31,500 --> 02:06:38,240
And then you actually hear hundreds of conversations just like this of people that have been there.

1684
02:06:38,240 --> 02:06:44,080
And there's people that survived the attempt like you, like Kevin Hines, who jumped off

1685
02:06:44,080 --> 02:06:45,560
the Golden Gate Bridge.

1686
02:06:45,560 --> 02:06:51,600
I've had a few people, Emma Benoit, who shot herself and survived.

1687
02:06:51,600 --> 02:06:53,920
Immediately there's regret.

1688
02:06:53,920 --> 02:06:57,880
You know, and then they're kind of snapped out of what led them there before.

1689
02:06:57,880 --> 02:07:04,260
And I think the shame and this judgment is coming from a somewhat healthy mind.

1690
02:07:04,260 --> 02:07:05,860
How could they?

1691
02:07:05,860 --> 02:07:10,880
And yet what I'm realizing now is that there's that wanting the suffering to stop, which,

1692
02:07:10,880 --> 02:07:13,160
of course, is a real part.

1693
02:07:13,160 --> 02:07:19,400
But almost all of them also reported a feeling of burdensome, which basically suggests that

1694
02:07:19,400 --> 02:07:22,400
the brain through trauma had become miswired.

1695
02:07:22,400 --> 02:07:24,880
So it was not a healthy brain anymore.

1696
02:07:24,880 --> 02:07:28,760
So you cannot understand how that person's thinking because they're not thinking the

1697
02:07:28,760 --> 02:07:30,960
way that they were supposed to think.

1698
02:07:30,960 --> 02:07:33,120
It's been miswired, misprogrammed.

1699
02:07:33,120 --> 02:07:37,240
And so when you tell someone who's in crisis, think about your kids, think about your wife,

1700
02:07:37,240 --> 02:07:39,200
they were like, I am.

1701
02:07:39,200 --> 02:07:40,240
I'm the problem.

1702
02:07:40,240 --> 02:07:42,360
That's why I'm going to go and do this thing.

1703
02:07:42,360 --> 02:07:46,600
You know, so it's actually an act of courage in a way, not cowardice.

1704
02:07:46,600 --> 02:07:52,600
So in that state, or when you look back now, was there an element of you truly in your

1705
02:07:52,600 --> 02:08:02,040
heart believing that the world would be better off without you?

1706
02:08:02,040 --> 02:08:11,440
That was that whole thought of that was for me, it was it was there, but it was minimal.

1707
02:08:11,440 --> 02:08:23,120
Mine, like I said, I just I couldn't get that shit to stop.

1708
02:08:23,120 --> 02:08:30,800
I was just like I literally and I know the term crazy isn't a good word to use for mental

1709
02:08:30,800 --> 02:08:32,920
health or whatever.

1710
02:08:32,920 --> 02:08:40,200
But I literally thought that something had snapped in my head with all this stuff that

1711
02:08:40,200 --> 02:08:47,640
was just coming on these flashbacks, being right back in that moment and everything.

1712
02:08:47,640 --> 02:08:57,720
But I would think about the bad things that I was doing and how it was affecting my family.

1713
02:08:57,720 --> 02:09:05,480
And I did think about being a burden to them and the hurt because at that point, it was

1714
02:09:05,480 --> 02:09:13,520
leading right up to that is when the whole thing with extra metal issues came to light.

1715
02:09:13,520 --> 02:09:20,560
And I knew that I had betrayed somebody who's been by my side that entire time and was doing

1716
02:09:20,560 --> 02:09:26,320
things to help me and truly wanted me to get better and to succeed and get the help that

1717
02:09:26,320 --> 02:09:27,320
I needed.

1718
02:09:27,320 --> 02:09:29,340
And I betrayed that.

1719
02:09:29,340 --> 02:09:37,920
So yeah, I did have those those thoughts and everything. And how could my son look up to

1720
02:09:37,920 --> 02:09:48,080
me when I did what I did to his mother? And they they would talk about at times, even

1721
02:09:48,080 --> 02:09:53,360
before I started getting help or knowing what was going on.

1722
02:09:53,360 --> 02:09:58,740
They would come home walking on eggshells because they didn't know what dad or what

1723
02:09:58,740 --> 02:10:03,440
husband was going to be there. Was I going to be the happy go lucky guy or was I going

1724
02:10:03,440 --> 02:10:10,440
to be the asshole who didn't get any sleep that night or had a bad call or whatever?

1725
02:10:10,440 --> 02:10:19,400
So yeah, I was worried about how I was a burden and I was no no good to them and that they

1726
02:10:19,400 --> 02:10:22,920
would be better off.

1727
02:10:22,920 --> 02:10:34,480
I would say tongue in cheek quite a bit, but I I meant it when I I would make comments

1728
02:10:34,480 --> 02:10:41,360
to my wife that she'd be better off without me. And I like I said, I would just play it

1729
02:10:41,360 --> 02:10:48,040
off as I'm joking. And I was like, oh, you you'll miss me until you get that first check,

1730
02:10:48,040 --> 02:10:52,800
that insurance check or whatever. I would just make stupid little remarks like that.

1731
02:10:52,800 --> 02:11:03,640
But my psyche, that was truly how I felt. And I knew if I was saying that, like without

1732
02:11:03,640 --> 02:11:10,360
saying it in a joking manner that the authorities or whatever would would come and get me or

1733
02:11:10,360 --> 02:11:17,240
or whatnot. But so I would I would make comments like that in a joking way. But it was it was

1734
02:11:17,240 --> 02:11:26,440
all seriousness. I didn't did feel like I was a big part of the problem. I said I knew

1735
02:11:26,440 --> 02:11:33,680
the debt was in my name. So I hope that when I took care of myself or off myself that it

1736
02:11:33,680 --> 02:11:40,760
would take care of that. Like insurance checks would come in, does everything. So but like

1737
02:11:40,760 --> 02:11:49,560
said, I realized that was that wasn't me thinking properly. Yeah. Well, I think that's that's

1738
02:11:49,560 --> 02:11:54,880
what we need to understand is when people are in crisis, they you know, it's no different

1739
02:11:54,880 --> 02:12:02,440
than you know, I have a failed skydive and I shatter my legs and my you know, my pelvis.

1740
02:12:02,440 --> 02:12:08,040
That's an you know, reaction to an acute event. Now it could be cumulative. Maybe you know,

1741
02:12:08,040 --> 02:12:12,120
I'm a freaking coal miner somewhere and I'm crouched over with weight, you know, and it

1742
02:12:12,120 --> 02:12:17,920
took me 10 years to get to that point. But it's it's a malfunction by that point. But

1743
02:12:17,920 --> 02:12:21,680
so when we hear this this conversation about suicide and how could they and everything,

1744
02:12:21,680 --> 02:12:27,160
I mean, sadly, there's a perfect example of of this. We had a law enforcement couple in

1745
02:12:27,160 --> 02:12:33,560
Florida later last year. The boyfriend, the father took his own life first. I think it

1746
02:12:33,560 --> 02:12:39,240
was not even a week before the girlfriend had the mother and they left behind an infant.

1747
02:12:39,240 --> 02:12:44,640
Now how could they you know, well, exactly. A healthy mind wouldn't do that, especially

1748
02:12:44,640 --> 02:12:50,120
you know, the mother when she's left the only parent now. But when you look at it a completely

1749
02:12:50,120 --> 02:12:54,560
different way, it's it's a miswired mind. Now all of a sudden you realize, oh, we need

1750
02:12:54,560 --> 02:12:58,960
to be compassionate. We can't add more guilt and shame to someone who's struggling. Now

1751
02:12:58,960 --> 02:13:03,000
we're just going to speed up the process of them taking their own lives. We need to try

1752
02:13:03,000 --> 02:13:06,920
and interact and be like, look, I know you're hurting. You know, you probably feel like

1753
02:13:06,920 --> 02:13:11,760
a burden. You are not a burden. And that that that to me is a is one of the red flags. Of

1754
02:13:11,760 --> 02:13:16,720
course, the suffering is the suffering. And that's a big part of it. But this, you know,

1755
02:13:16,720 --> 02:13:21,640
think of your family. Don't be a coward. Don't be so you know, all this stuff that's so fucking

1756
02:13:21,640 --> 02:13:27,360
wrong. And now seven years for me doing this, I'm realizing that we have to completely reframe

1757
02:13:27,360 --> 02:13:32,740
and ultimately just put it back into that kindness and compassion element that we really

1758
02:13:32,740 --> 02:13:38,320
we need to find refined in all areas of life. But with this as well, when our men and women

1759
02:13:38,320 --> 02:13:43,520
are hurting, they're not thinking with a clear mind. And that's why sleep deprivation is

1760
02:13:43,520 --> 02:13:48,580
so fucking dangerous for mental health, because you're destroying the mind. Then you throw

1761
02:13:48,580 --> 02:13:53,940
in some alcohol, which numbs our self preservation reflexes. And now you've got the perfect storm

1762
02:13:53,940 --> 02:14:01,880
for a suicide. Yeah, exactly. And I was all of the above on on that, the sleep deprivation,

1763
02:14:01,880 --> 02:14:09,720
the alcohol, and just the mind not being wired right in that moment. So yeah, just it was

1764
02:14:09,720 --> 02:14:19,160
the perfect recipe for disaster, perfect storm, like you said. So but we need to need to look

1765
02:14:19,160 --> 02:14:30,520
at the big picture. And it's not always about having anything to say to somebody. I know

1766
02:14:30,520 --> 02:14:36,120
we talked about right and wrong things to say. But sometimes you have that person that's

1767
02:14:36,120 --> 02:14:43,120
struggling. One of the best things we can do is just I mean, obviously, if they're struggling,

1768
02:14:43,120 --> 02:14:49,080
we know they want to take their their life or whether we need to, to act on that. But

1769
02:14:49,080 --> 02:14:52,160
sometimes somebody that's just struggling, the best thing we can do is just that that

1770
02:14:52,160 --> 02:15:01,240
active listening and empathy. And a lot of times people they just need their feelings,

1771
02:15:01,240 --> 02:15:05,920
they need to know that they're honestly and openly being heard, and that their feelings

1772
02:15:05,920 --> 02:15:15,200
are valid. They're entitled to hurt and struggle. And everything everybody does. But sometimes

1773
02:15:15,200 --> 02:15:19,640
just just listening to somebody, we don't have to have the answers that we don't, we

1774
02:15:19,640 --> 02:15:24,280
don't always have the answers. But us as first responders, a lot of times we're some of the

1775
02:15:24,280 --> 02:15:31,880
worst for that when it comes to reaching out and helping somebody, because we in our profession

1776
02:15:31,880 --> 02:15:39,240
are to an extent control freaks. Think about it, what when when somebody dials 911, something

1777
02:15:39,240 --> 02:15:43,520
is out of control in their life. And they're calling us, it's our job to get there and

1778
02:15:43,520 --> 02:15:49,500
take control of it and fix it. We're used to that for 24 hours at a time, we're going

1779
02:15:49,500 --> 02:15:57,400
away from our families and we're fixing shit all of the time. We are pros at fixing other

1780
02:15:57,400 --> 02:16:04,680
people's shit. But we can't fix our own. We choose for whatever reason, we choose not

1781
02:16:04,680 --> 02:16:15,720
to. We don't want to talk to our partner at the firehouse or whatever about all that

1782
02:16:15,720 --> 02:16:20,360
to get things fixed if we're struggling or we're hurting. But we'll go and we'll talk

1783
02:16:20,360 --> 02:16:28,640
to Joe citizen who we don't even know to fix their problem. Because we we can control that.

1784
02:16:28,640 --> 02:16:37,960
We can control our stuff too. By just reaching out, we can control who we we want and how

1785
02:16:37,960 --> 02:16:43,760
we want things to to to go to the best of our ability. I know there is still a lot of

1786
02:16:43,760 --> 02:16:49,880
stuff that's out of our our hands and out of our control. But just by making that that

1787
02:16:49,880 --> 02:16:56,880
gesture and reaching out the act of listening, being empathetic, and not judgmental, I mean,

1788
02:16:56,880 --> 02:17:05,920
we were pretty cutthroat at times within our our community. And it's like we jokingly say

1789
02:17:05,920 --> 02:17:10,480
that there first there is the telegraph and there's telefriend and there's telephone and

1790
02:17:10,480 --> 02:17:17,000
telefire fighter. So we can't have these these forms of communication to telefire fighter.

1791
02:17:17,000 --> 02:17:25,320
I told James that hey, man, I'm hurting I'm thinking about hurting myself or whatever.

1792
02:17:25,320 --> 02:17:30,000
I talked to you in confidence. And then the next thing I know, I'm getting a phone call

1793
02:17:30,000 --> 02:17:37,800
from one of the other stations. Hey, man, would you okay? James just told me no, it's

1794
02:17:37,800 --> 02:17:42,920
not supposed to be like that. We got to have the confidentiality and and everything. So

1795
02:17:42,920 --> 02:17:52,920
but yeah, it's there's there's just so much and the whole wiring thing and stuff like

1796
02:17:52,920 --> 02:18:00,800
that is that's the the God's honest truth. No, but I don't think anybody nobody in their

1797
02:18:00,800 --> 02:18:06,400
right mind is going to want to take their life. Nobody.

1798
02:18:06,400 --> 02:18:11,120
It goes against our literal biology was supposed to reproduce and was supposed to protect our

1799
02:18:11,120 --> 02:18:17,240
offspring. Yeah. So I mean, obviously, we know that we get we got something going on

1800
02:18:17,240 --> 02:18:25,080
there. And so let's let's figure out what that underlying issue is. And let's let's

1801
02:18:25,080 --> 02:18:30,760
resolve it. Let's not let that person self medicate with the alcohol or whatever it may

1802
02:18:30,760 --> 02:18:39,880
be. Let's get that that ball rolling and get that definitive care and normalize it. And

1803
02:18:39,880 --> 02:18:41,520
let's fix this shit.

1804
02:18:41,520 --> 02:18:49,320
Absolutely. I want to hit one more area before we close out, which is an important thing.

1805
02:18:49,320 --> 02:18:55,720
After the suicide attempt, talk to me about and this isn't, you know, talking negatively

1806
02:18:55,720 --> 02:18:59,780
about your department because again, doing the best of what they know. But talk to me

1807
02:18:59,780 --> 02:19:06,080
about the position you were put in and if that was helpful tribally or if it became

1808
02:19:06,080 --> 02:19:08,960
a challenge tribally for you personally.

1809
02:19:08,960 --> 02:19:15,800
Yeah. And thanks for kind of setting the stage there about it not being negative about my

1810
02:19:15,800 --> 02:19:21,320
department. And let me get my disclaimer now should have gave this at the beginning. All

1811
02:19:21,320 --> 02:19:28,480
views are the views of Chris Moore and do not reflect or anything positive or negative

1812
02:19:28,480 --> 02:19:40,080
on my department. They're all my views. So it was the whole we don't know. We don't know.

1813
02:19:40,080 --> 02:19:49,400
Since this I'm going to touch base on it. But I did start doing some some research after

1814
02:19:49,400 --> 02:19:56,760
the fact. And a lot of departments we have things in place and this is nationwide and

1815
02:19:56,760 --> 02:20:03,560
actually extends across the border into Canada. I've talked to people. If a member completes

1816
02:20:03,560 --> 02:20:14,560
suicide, we have policies, directives, guidelines in place of how to handle it as a department.

1817
02:20:14,560 --> 02:20:19,600
We have things for line of duty deaths, whatever you want to and I know that's a discussion

1818
02:20:19,600 --> 02:20:24,000
for another day, whether or not a suicide of a member should be a line of duty death

1819
02:20:24,000 --> 02:20:35,680
or not. But we don't have I have yet to find a department with a policy in place or what

1820
02:20:35,680 --> 02:20:46,320
you do or how you treat a member who has a suicide attempt. So there is excuse me, NFPA

1821
02:20:46,320 --> 02:20:54,840
182 has a recommendation or a guideline because NFPA's guidelines that you can keep a member

1822
02:20:54,840 --> 02:21:06,440
out for up to a year with a suicide attempt. So with no policy in place, my department

1823
02:21:06,440 --> 02:21:21,480
never having experienced anything like this chose to follow the NFPA 1582 kept me offline

1824
02:21:21,480 --> 02:21:29,360
for just about a year. But they they they did give me they gave me a desk job and how

1825
02:21:29,360 --> 02:21:37,520
we talked about earlier that the job does not define me. Well, I found out in that moment,

1826
02:21:37,520 --> 02:21:44,600
I felt like it really did. I'm I'm a grunt. I I want to go and I want to do my 24 hour

1827
02:21:44,600 --> 02:21:51,040
shifts. I want to get on the rig and ride the calls and do the work and everything.

1828
02:21:51,040 --> 02:21:57,000
I want station life. And I just felt like my identity was stripped from me when I got

1829
02:21:57,000 --> 02:22:06,520
put on a desk job. And it really hurt a lot of people that I thought that I was really

1830
02:22:06,520 --> 02:22:18,200
close to had very little communication with with a lot of people. Some I never heard from

1831
02:22:18,200 --> 02:22:24,920
and I'm still to this day and heard anything from people that worked for me worked with

1832
02:22:24,920 --> 02:22:36,920
me. I had relationships from other parts within my department. And it's just I felt like I

1833
02:22:36,920 --> 02:22:49,920
was shunned. Like I told you with my friends. I had that whole I felt like I was a I was

1834
02:22:49,920 --> 02:22:59,680
embarrassed. I was ashamed of everything that I did. And I was made. Let me see. Let me

1835
02:22:59,680 --> 02:23:08,840
rephrase that. I felt even more so through my department because of all that. However,

1836
02:23:08,840 --> 02:23:19,480
looking back on it now, I have during all of that wrote some policy. It's nothing has

1837
02:23:19,480 --> 02:23:26,600
been implemented within my organization yet. But I think each person I don't think there

1838
02:23:26,600 --> 02:23:34,960
should be a cookie cutter policy for anything yet alone something as serious as this. I

1839
02:23:34,960 --> 02:23:41,560
think we should treat people as human beings. And everybody's different. It should be case

1840
02:23:41,560 --> 02:23:49,640
by case basis. I jumped through. I don't want to say I jumped through hoops. That's what

1841
02:23:49,640 --> 02:23:57,040
I was about to say. I went through a lot of steps and processes. And each time I thought

1842
02:23:57,040 --> 02:24:01,440
that, okay, I went through this step, I just got to get through this next step. And that's

1843
02:24:01,440 --> 02:24:07,160
the goal line. Well, then the goal line just when I'm about to extend and score, it gets

1844
02:24:07,160 --> 02:24:16,000
moved on me. And it felt like that kept happening on numerous times. I went through to different

1845
02:24:16,000 --> 02:24:22,560
doctors that they required and things like that. And looking at medical records, the

1846
02:24:22,560 --> 02:24:32,000
doctors pretty much cleared me. They thought that it would be good to get back to that

1847
02:24:32,000 --> 02:24:39,760
camaraderie that we had in the firehouse. But getting back to this, long story short,

1848
02:24:39,760 --> 02:24:45,800
I have been working with some departments on making policies to help their members because

1849
02:24:45,800 --> 02:24:53,840
I feel like it's not a matter of when or if this is going to happen. It's a matter of

1850
02:24:53,840 --> 02:25:05,160
when it might happen within another organization. I have by doing that been able to reflect

1851
02:25:05,160 --> 02:25:12,840
more on how my department handled the situation and the issue. And are there things they could

1852
02:25:12,840 --> 02:25:20,720
have done better? Absolutely. But I think they did a pretty damn good job looking back

1853
02:25:20,720 --> 02:25:29,800
at it now. I didn't understand it or like it that much in the very beginning. But the

1854
02:25:29,800 --> 02:25:34,280
whole like I said, they didn't know what they didn't know. A lot of times people don't know

1855
02:25:34,280 --> 02:25:41,840
how to talk to somebody who's tried to take their life. And I didn't necessarily need

1856
02:25:41,840 --> 02:25:48,000
somebody to come and talk about that experience. People that I thought I was closer with or

1857
02:25:48,000 --> 02:25:51,480
friends or whatever. It's like hell, just come over to my house and sit down and watch

1858
02:25:51,480 --> 02:25:55,600
a ball game or something. We don't have to discuss it. If it comes up, it comes up. Just

1859
02:25:55,600 --> 02:26:03,960
be my friend. Be there for me. It's the whole act of listening and empathy. But going to

1860
02:26:03,960 --> 02:26:13,160
the desk job, that was the right thing. Looking at hindsight right now. You got to do what's

1861
02:26:13,160 --> 02:26:23,200
best for the member who had the event. But also we got to think about the team as a whole.

1862
02:26:23,200 --> 02:26:31,640
And if I think a little bit of me and I think there's a lot of give and take on both sides.

1863
02:26:31,640 --> 02:26:38,440
A little bit of me was kind of selfish. Where I was like, you know what, if I want to go

1864
02:26:38,440 --> 02:26:44,000
back and doctors say I can go back and I can go back, but those people there don't want

1865
02:26:44,000 --> 02:26:50,280
me back because of what I did. I was just thinking in my head, you know what, fuck them.

1866
02:26:50,280 --> 02:26:56,760
And their feelings and their emotions shouldn't affect me and my livelihood. And that's where

1867
02:26:56,760 --> 02:27:02,680
the give and take has to be. And that was me being selfish. Because my event and what

1868
02:27:02,680 --> 02:27:06,880
I did, even though I wasn't, my brain wasn't wired right, I wasn't in my right mind at

1869
02:27:06,880 --> 02:27:17,520
that time, it affected the whole team. And I wasn't looking at it like that. And that's

1870
02:27:17,520 --> 02:27:27,320
why, like I said, policies now for getting people back. I think it should be a case by

1871
02:27:27,320 --> 02:27:37,760
case, but you involve the doctors, you involve the family. And we have to be very, very mindful

1872
02:27:37,760 --> 02:27:42,280
of HIPAA, what gets released out there to certain people and individuals and stuff like

1873
02:27:42,280 --> 02:27:49,480
that. We also know we have the gossip tree and the fire service that he said, she said

1874
02:27:49,480 --> 02:27:58,760
and everything. But I think you need to include in a comfortable fashion for all as many people,

1875
02:27:58,760 --> 02:28:06,520
you need to build that circle and try and include people in there that are trusted,

1876
02:28:06,520 --> 02:28:15,880
respected and have the best interest of that individual in mind. Even though the best interest

1877
02:28:15,880 --> 02:28:20,600
was for me, there still has to be a little bit of interest, like I said, left for the

1878
02:28:20,600 --> 02:28:32,520
entire team as well. And that's one thing I let people know is now of all times, the

1879
02:28:32,520 --> 02:28:40,360
world is watching. People are watching now how things like this are being handled, how

1880
02:28:40,360 --> 02:28:45,240
they're going to be handled in the future. What are we going to do? If they see is like,

1881
02:28:45,240 --> 02:28:50,200
you know what Captain Moore said in the end, they ended up handling his stuff better. They

1882
02:28:50,200 --> 02:29:00,480
did a good job. They're going to be more accepting and willing to reach out and get help. If

1883
02:29:00,480 --> 02:29:06,560
they completely shit on their member and they don't do what's right for that member and

1884
02:29:06,560 --> 02:29:13,880
let him come back accordingly, when ready, people are watching that too. And somebody

1885
02:29:13,880 --> 02:29:19,760
that might have been on the fence about reaching out and getting help might not reach out for

1886
02:29:19,760 --> 02:29:24,120
that help because they might say, you know what, the department just shit on him because

1887
02:29:24,120 --> 02:29:29,840
of his mental health episode or episode is probably not even a good word. It's his mental

1888
02:29:29,840 --> 02:29:38,560
health. Why am I going to do it? They might shit on me too. So a lot of people still to

1889
02:29:38,560 --> 02:29:47,680
this day are having these conversations like you and I are having because like cancer really

1890
02:29:47,680 --> 02:29:55,320
became the hot topic. 15 years ago, 10, 15 years ago, whatever people were talking about

1891
02:29:55,320 --> 02:29:59,480
that. Well, the hot topic now is mental health. They're talking about it because it's the

1892
02:29:59,480 --> 02:30:06,080
hot topic, but there's a big difference between Saturday night and Sunday morning already

1893
02:30:06,080 --> 02:30:10,880
in and then going to church the next day. There's a big difference also between talking

1894
02:30:10,880 --> 02:30:15,640
the talk and walking the walk. When one of your members goes through a crisis like this

1895
02:30:15,640 --> 02:30:22,960
and has an event, are you actually going to be there? And are you going to walk the walk

1896
02:30:22,960 --> 02:30:28,760
that you've been talking with your member? Are you going to take care of them? Are you

1897
02:30:28,760 --> 02:30:35,120
going to do the right thing? But more importantly, we shouldn't even be at that point. Let's

1898
02:30:35,120 --> 02:30:40,840
do it. Let's be proactive. Let's not be reactive and just walk the walk with them after the

1899
02:30:40,840 --> 02:30:47,960
fact. Let's walk the walk with them as a whole from the get go. Like, I mean, right back

1900
02:30:47,960 --> 02:30:53,000
to what we talked about at the very beginning of careers, we're already saving departments

1901
02:30:53,000 --> 02:31:01,360
money by changing the process of things and stuff like that. So let's do that mental health

1902
02:31:01,360 --> 02:31:05,440
background check in the beginning and then start doing these quarterly checks all throughout

1903
02:31:05,440 --> 02:31:10,880
the duration of their career. There's a lot of checks and balances that we can set up

1904
02:31:10,880 --> 02:31:15,760
by being proactive where we don't even get to this point, but still let's implement a

1905
02:31:15,760 --> 02:31:23,360
plan for how we will handle it if something does slip by and happens.

1906
02:31:23,360 --> 02:31:28,960
Absolutely. Yeah, I've always said the fire department, the fire service is great at burying

1907
02:31:28,960 --> 02:31:34,080
their own, but terrible at stopping them dying in the first place. And I think that's it.

1908
02:31:34,080 --> 02:31:40,440
We need to stop having these pomp and circumstance funerals and maybe take that energy and focus

1909
02:31:40,440 --> 02:31:44,960
it on how do we stop so many happening? We can't set and stop them all. And even just

1910
02:31:44,960 --> 02:31:53,400
to touch on is suicide line of duty death. If cardiac arrest or stroke during a shift

1911
02:31:53,400 --> 02:32:01,360
is then absolutely suicide is as well. Because again, it's partly what happened before. It's

1912
02:32:01,360 --> 02:32:07,000
partly what's happening outside of work hours, but obviously being exposed to what we do

1913
02:32:07,000 --> 02:32:13,520
is job related. So how do we stop that? And so many of these line of duty deaths happening

1914
02:32:13,520 --> 02:32:18,120
through suicide and overdose and the other mental health related deaths. Well, again,

1915
02:32:18,120 --> 02:32:24,240
it's all about the pro the proactive side as well. So I'm sure people listening would

1916
02:32:24,240 --> 02:32:28,680
love to learn more about you would love to reach out. I know that you like to put your

1917
02:32:28,680 --> 02:32:33,440
number out there as well. So what are the best avenues to contact you if people want

1918
02:32:33,440 --> 02:32:34,440
to?

1919
02:32:34,440 --> 02:32:40,720
And I give everybody I'm on Facebook, Chris, more, I'm easy to find out there. I'm not

1920
02:32:40,720 --> 02:32:44,640
on any of the other stuff. I'm just on the old man social media. They took away my my

1921
02:32:44,640 --> 02:32:51,320
space. So I got haven't gotten into the Instagram and Twitter or X or whatever it is now. But

1922
02:32:51,320 --> 02:32:57,680
just on Facebook is my only social media. But I blasted out there. My personal cell

1923
02:32:57,680 --> 02:33:03,520
phone number. People have seen me speak at conferences. Also, I put my number out there

1924
02:33:03,520 --> 02:33:15,320
at conferences. It's 7575363373. That's not a business number or anything like that. That

1925
02:33:15,320 --> 02:33:20,480
is my personal cell phone number. You can text me, you can call me. People thought I

1926
02:33:20,480 --> 02:33:25,320
was crazy when I started doing this almost three years ago. And they're like, you're

1927
02:33:25,320 --> 02:33:34,400
going to get all sorts of terrible phone calls or whatever. And if I have what what can be

1928
02:33:34,400 --> 02:33:38,880
worse, I'm already getting like everybody else the calls about my car's extended warranty

1929
02:33:38,880 --> 02:33:43,800
and shit like that. It's like somebody calls me was the whole Jake Clark thing. And this

1930
02:33:43,800 --> 02:33:49,600
was even before I knew Jake, I was like, if just one person calls me, and can use some

1931
02:33:49,600 --> 02:33:53,080
help or whatever, and I can point them in the right direction, or just do the act of

1932
02:33:53,080 --> 02:33:59,480
listening, then I'm making a difference. So I put that out there. Everywhere I go, I try

1933
02:33:59,480 --> 02:34:09,320
and plaster my number. And I am just shy of 2000 people have reached out to me to this

1934
02:34:09,320 --> 02:34:19,800
day. I give my disclaimer that I am not a clinician, not a therapist, I am sure as hell

1935
02:34:19,800 --> 02:34:27,440
I'm not a doctor. But what I am a fellow first responder that has post traumatic stress,

1936
02:34:27,440 --> 02:34:32,400
a suicide attempt, I have lived experiences and I can relate and a lot of people can relate

1937
02:34:32,400 --> 02:34:37,800
to me. And sometimes, like I said, that's all we we need. And I point people in the

1938
02:34:37,800 --> 02:34:44,320
right direction. I listen to people. Sometimes they just want to ask me about peer support

1939
02:34:44,320 --> 02:34:50,600
or behavioral health, or call and get me to come in to speak at their department or whatever.

1940
02:34:50,600 --> 02:34:55,040
So anything that I can help with. That's the best way to reach me. Like I said, find me

1941
02:34:55,040 --> 02:35:03,320
on Facebook, or you got my personal number right now. Call me. I do the do buddy checks

1942
02:35:03,320 --> 02:35:08,560
out of those almost like is it 2000 people that have reached out to me, I'll randomly

1943
02:35:08,560 --> 02:35:14,640
go through that. And of course, I at the end of our conversation, I asked them as a can

1944
02:35:14,640 --> 02:35:19,680
I reach out to you? Can we stay in touch? And I haven't had anybody yet tell me no.

1945
02:35:19,680 --> 02:35:24,920
So I'll randomly just reach out weekly, and just send out some messages. Hey, just thinking

1946
02:35:24,920 --> 02:35:30,360
of you, you matter. Or how you doing today? Just little things like that. And that's,

1947
02:35:30,360 --> 02:35:34,800
to me, that that makes a huge difference. And that's what people have told me when just

1948
02:35:34,800 --> 02:35:39,320
get a random text, they might be having a shitty day. And then just get a random text

1949
02:35:39,320 --> 02:35:44,880
from somebody they've never met before, other than seeing me on podcasts or at a conference

1950
02:35:44,880 --> 02:35:54,520
or social media. And this guy cares about me. So that's me, man.

1951
02:35:54,520 --> 02:35:58,800
Beautiful. Well, again, thank you for that. And one thing that I'm hoping that we'll see

1952
02:35:58,800 --> 02:36:04,500
down the road is almost like the Israeli military system where their philosophy is that you

1953
02:36:04,500 --> 02:36:09,440
protect your buddy. That's how they that's that's the kind of principle I believe in

1954
02:36:09,440 --> 02:36:14,880
that particular military. And I think that's what needs to happen is that rather than ultimately

1955
02:36:14,880 --> 02:36:21,400
down the road rather than Chris Moore or Dustin Hawkins or Brendan McDonald fielding hundreds

1956
02:36:21,400 --> 02:36:26,560
of calls that we actually wrap around our arms around, you know, our nearest and dearest.

1957
02:36:26,560 --> 02:36:30,840
So that way, we're all taking care of our circle now, you know, because one of us is

1958
02:36:30,840 --> 02:36:34,080
going to have a great day, one of us gonna have a shit day. It's just the way it works.

1959
02:36:34,080 --> 02:36:38,680
So, you know, I hope that not only you put in your phone call out and thank you so much

1960
02:36:38,680 --> 02:36:42,600
for that your phone number, but also that we could be reminded to just check in on on

1961
02:36:42,600 --> 02:36:48,160
our loved ones, whether it's outside of the uniform or inside the uniform, because checking

1962
02:36:48,160 --> 02:36:54,640
in on 10 people that you adore is much easier than a handful of people checking in on 2000.

1963
02:36:54,640 --> 02:36:58,160
So that's a kind of call to action for everyone listening as well.

1964
02:36:58,160 --> 02:37:02,200
Right on, man. Right on. Well, Chris, I want to say thank you so much. We've been chatting

1965
02:37:02,200 --> 02:37:06,920
for over two and a half hours and it's been an amazing conversation. As you said, you

1966
02:37:06,920 --> 02:37:12,160
not only have the firefighter career path, but you have the lived experience. And, you

1967
02:37:12,160 --> 02:37:16,480
know, I always thank people that have been courageously vulnerable because this is what

1968
02:37:16,480 --> 02:37:21,600
we need. I mean, you're a firefighter and we met in person. You're a big lad too, as

1969
02:37:21,600 --> 02:37:27,680
we'd say in England. So back 20 years ago, you'd be quote unquote, the last person that

1970
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we thought would be struggling. But this is what we need is the, you know, the alpha professions

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and I mean that with compassion to stand up and talk about the struggles because that's

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how you debunk the myth that boys don't cry, rub some dirt in it. You know, this bullshit

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that we were raised on when we were younger, that we're all human beings. And no matter

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whether you're a Navy SEAL or you work in a cake shop, you're going to have highs and

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you're going to have lows. So I want to thank you so, so much for being so generous and

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so vulnerable today and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast.

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Thank you for having me, James. I really appreciate it. So keep doing what you're doing, man.

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You are making a world of difference to a lot of people. So I appreciate you, your friendship

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and your platform and everything, man. So keep it up, brother.