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This episode is sponsored by NuCalm.

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And as many of you know, I only bring sponsors onto this show

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whose products I truly swear by.

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Now, we are an overworked and underslept population,

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especially those of us that wear uniform for a living.

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And trying to reclaim some of the lost rest and recovery is imperative.

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Now, the application of this product is as simple as putting on headphones and a sleep mask.

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As you listen to music on each of the programs,

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there is neuroacoustic software beneath that is tapping into the actual frequencies of your brain,

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whether to upregulate your nervous system or downregulate.

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Now, for most of us that come off shift, we are A, exhausted,

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and B, do not want to bring what we've had to see and do back home to our loved ones.

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So one powerful application is using the program Powernap,

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a 20 minute session that will not only feel like you've had two hours of sleep,

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but also downregulate from a hypervigilant state back into the role of mother or father, husband or wife.

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Now, there are so many other applications and benefits from this software,

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so I urge you to go and listen to episode 806 with CEO Jim Poole.

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Then download New Calm, N-U-C-A-L-M, from your app store and sign up for the seven day free trial.

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but also see for yourself the incredible health impact of this life changing software.

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And you can find even more information on New Calm dot com.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing,

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and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show Air Force veteran and co-founder of Agape, Sergio Saenz.

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Now, what makes this episode so incredibly powerful is that a few weeks ago,

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Sergio and his wife Raquel put one of my friends, Tom Bull Hill, through a series of plant medicine journeys.

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Now, at that moment, Tom was in absolute crisis both physically and emotionally,

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and his ayahuasca experience and then ceremonies following that truly saved his life.

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On top of that, I was connected with another firefighter that we also sent to the same place,

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and he himself had an absolutely life altering experience and is doing incredibly well since his own suicide ideation.

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So in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from Sergio's early life,

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his journey into the military, his transition, how plant medicine helped his own mental health,

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the Agape Heroes program, cambo, and so much more.

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Now, before we get to this incredibly important conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment,

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go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.

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Every single five-star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for others to find,

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and this is a free library of well over 850 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories,

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so I can get them to every single person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you, Sergio Sands. Enjoy.

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Well, Sergio, there is a huge backstory behind why you and I are talking today,

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but before we dive into that incredible journey that some of our mutual friends have been on,

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I want to start by welcoming you to the Behind the Shield podcast today.

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Thank you very much, James. It's an honor to be here.

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So where on planet Earth are we finding you this afternoon?

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Currently, I'm in Conroe, Texas, which is just north of Houston.

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We have a 25-acre property here in the middle of the woods, so it's nice and peaceful.

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Hopefully, the internet stays up because we're using satellite.

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There's an app that you can use for interviewing on podcasts, and it does each one remotely.

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A lot of people use it. The amount of hours that I record each week,

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I think it was like $40 a month for a regular podcaster.

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When I asked them for a quote with the amount of hours I record, it was $450 a month.

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So I was like, well, that's not going to work, is it?

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So I'm stuck with the internet at the moment until they figure that out.

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But anyway, so I'd love to start at the very beginning of your journey first.

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So let's learn where you were born and tell me a little about your family dynamic,

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what your parents did, how many siblings.

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Yeah, of course. So I was born in South Texas in a small town called Premont,

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graduating class of 69, just to put it in perspective.

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We had one red light and it's kind of a rural town.

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So I grew up around raising cattle and working on a ranch.

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We had a 10-acre ranch just outside of Premont.

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Born in McAllen, Texas. Let's see.

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I was in and around that area throughout my schooling.

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I went to school in Corpus Christi and Benvolt, kind of just following

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the best educational system that was available.

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My parents kind of just made sure that I was where the education was offered best

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in my upbringing so that exposed me to a lot of different cultures,

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a lot of different varying popularities, if you will, at different schools.

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So it was a beautiful upbringing.

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My parents were owners of an insurance agency.

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They had established from the ground up on their own.

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And yeah, very successful. I grew up pretty privileged,

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which comes with its own problems.

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But in either case, very grateful for my upbringing.

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Now, I myself am first-generation immigrant.

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How far back does your family's immigration go?

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It's multiple generations, probably around six to eight, I would imagine.

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We had an uncle that signed the Texas Declaration of Independence.

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So our family has been well established here.

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So it depends. I think on my mother's side would be probably six to eight generations.

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But my father's side has been here for a really long time.

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Now, with all those generations, when you go back,

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was there any relationship to the plant medicine ceremonies,

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the tribal element that we're going to be discussing today?

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Not much. I know that I've had uncles that are curious.

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And then growing up on a cattle ranch, there's always one of us

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that decides to start eating the mushrooms that grow out of that environment.

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Yeah, exactly.

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But traditionally speaking, I think about four generations back,

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we had some activity in our family with the Native American Church,

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as well as there in Mexico.

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So I've never been too far away from it.

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I know that in my educational process of preparing for offering these types of ceremonies,

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I started recognizing a lot of what my grandparents did as remedies,

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as being a part of curanderismo, which is the healing practices

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that are associated with the Latin American tradition.

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So it was nice to see that those modalities for healing were being passed along,

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regardless of how extremely Catholic our upbringing was.

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What have you seen, especially maybe with discussions of some of the real elders

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that you've worked with through this journey,

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of what would seemingly be a complete 360,

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from ancient plant medicine being completely normalized back then,

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as was acupuncture and many, many of these other holistic healing elements,

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to the pharmaceuticals and modern medicine,

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and then now this kind of refinding, actually having some humility

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and listening to our ancestors and refinding some of these plant medicines

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and holistic practices that seem to be incredibly powerful?

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I think the most notable thing in the conversations I've had

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is the difference in the approach to healing.

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A lot of what plant medicines offer are a little bit of struggle now,

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so that you are no longer struggling for the rest of your life.

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So pharmaceuticals are treating symptoms,

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and they're basically just shelving our symptoms,

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and then eventually they manifest themselves into greater diseases

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or greater pain, greater suffering.

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So we're basically putting the suffering aside for later in our later years,

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when we're no longer strong enough to deal with these ailments with pharmaceuticals,

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whereas plant medicines seem to be addressing the issues

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that are manifesting these problems within us.

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So it's a struggle a little bit now, a struggle with me for a weekend,

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and get past a lot of the limitations that you have,

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or you take a pill that comes with its own list of symptoms.

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That's what puzzles me about the pharmaceuticals

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that are supposed to prevent you from committing suicide,

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saying this could potentially cause you to commit suicide.

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So it's a really interesting dynamic.

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So having a bandaid and says a little warning on the side

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may cause profuse bleeding.

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Right, exactly.

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We're going way ahead, but just while we're on this tangent,

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there's the book The Body Keeps the Score,

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and there's obviously a very strong correlation between trauma

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and the way it's manifested in the body, the gut-brain connection,

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all these things.

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With the holistic plant medicine, the traditional plant medicine lens,

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what is the philosophy of treating physical ailments

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and focusing on possibly trauma being the nucleus of them?

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I think it's centered around that, to be perfectly honest.

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A lot of it seems to be centered around our childhood

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and generational traumas.

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I'm familiar with the book too.

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I've read it before, about three years ago,

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and I just got the audiobook with one of my Audible credits,

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so I'm excited to see it through a clearer lens right now.

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But it's important to be trauma-informed, for one, in this space.

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I say this space in particular to offering these ceremonies

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in the United States, because a lot of the traumas

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that we have experienced here in the Western world

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are not relatable to the tribes in South America

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who are living a much simpler life,

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that are raised around these practices and these rituals.

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So being trauma-informed is very important through this work.

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But it seems to me, in observing a thousand people healing

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with these plant medicines at this point,

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that a majority of what people are dealing with

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are compartmentalization from childhood or any life trauma,

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any post-traumatic stress in a multitude of ways.

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That seems to be a reference to war nowadays,

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but it's prevalent in many different ways.

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A car accident being screamed at and things like that

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are manifesting themselves into social issues that cause anxiety,

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that cause stress, that eventually manifest themselves

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as disease in the body.

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I had a gentleman on who is the CEO of Nucom, N-U-C-A-L-M,

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and it's an amazing app now.

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It used to be a massive machine that was in super high performers,

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NASA, Navy SEALs.

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He said the same thing.

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This is obviously an audible neuro-linguistic element

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that stimulates your brain to down-regulate your nervous system.

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But his whole principle was the same.

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He said disease is caused by stress, cancer.

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You name it, it's stress.

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So with the tools that you're bringing and the tools that that app has

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and all these other holistic elements,

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like cold plunges, all these things, it's amazing how, as you said,

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that's proactive, that's getting back to the root of it.

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If we can be out of stress, we're far less likely to develop some of these things,

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heart issues and cancer, etc., autoimmune disease.

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But yet you just don't hear that.

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As you said, we get bombarded with drug commercials,

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and there are some incredible drugs out there that I use as a paramedic,

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that surgeons use, that are phenomenal.

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But how many of them, I would argue even chemotherapy, have actually taken more lives than they supposedly save?

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No, I would agree, absolutely.

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And again, it just comes back to, for me, where I stand is,

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or where my lens is pointed currently in plant medicines and entheogenic church offerings, things of that nature.

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It's also perplexing to me that we're waiting for permission

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from the people who are poisoning us in the first place with these so-called medicines.

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And I forget who famously says it, but they put it in terms, and I'll butcher this of course,

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but they call our medicines drugs and their drugs medicines, and back and forth.

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So it's a really interesting way to look at things.

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Like why is it that we can take a known good thing,

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something that is helping a multitude of people,

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and say, well, we don't want to help them just yet until we've pumped all of this research into proving

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that people's testimonies are true, basically.

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So it's just interesting.

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The times that we're in right now, I feel like these are the safest, affordable opportunities for people to heal.

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And we're shelving it until Big Pharma comes up with a plan to offer these things in the clinical setting.

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I love that phrase, don't wait for science to prove what you already know is true.

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And you can apply that.

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I mean, even recently trying to get people to understand that the way that we work our fire fires,

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which is 56 hours a week plus overtime a lot of times,

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is far more detrimental than a 42 hour work week, which would be basically like a civilian style work week.

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And people are like, oh, yeah, have you got the data to show that?

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I'm like, when do we lose our common sense where we can't even think of anything without needing studies?

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You see these people, oh, we've just shown that meditation works.

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Well, it's been used for thousands of years, meditation, prayer, whatever you want to call it.

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We know it works. And it's the same with this.

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It's so maddening because this has got a millennia longitudinal study of all these cultures that have used it successfully for years and years and years and years,

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whether it's Poyote or Ayahuasca, whatever the ceremony is, we've got hundreds of years of proof.

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Otherwise, they wouldn't do it anymore. It'll be dead.

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So this is what's so maddening. We know that the efficacy of these drugs is not good.

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We know, as you touched on, the side effects can be horrendous, which then requires more drugs and more drugs and more drugs.

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And yet CBD and the psilocybin and all these other mushrooms and plant medicines, Ebola, et cetera, et cetera, they're held up.

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And people still have to, people that have served this country still have to go over the border sometimes to get the very healing they need for their service for the U.S.

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It's pure insanity.

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No, I agree wholeheartedly. I agree.

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Yeah, but honestly, too, once we once we just lean in and support the thing that we know to be true, then then everything will follow suit thereafter.

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You know, it seems to me like the fear that is being instilled, for instance, in the legality of these substances, you know, for one, we already have the data to show that there are medical benefits to using these plants, but it's still a schedule one,

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which means there are no medical uses for for these medicines.

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So, so to me, it sounds a lot more like a strategy than than a logical decision.

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You know, so so I understand that there's a huge system in place right now that that would detriment be a detriment to these plant medicines becoming more available to people.

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But what are we really trying to do here?

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Are we trying to help people or are we trying to to help a corporate, you know, entity?

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Like, so in this in this case, you know, I take a lot of risk in what it is that I offer, but I do it because I know that it's the best thing that I can possibly do for people rather than, you know, wait around for and for people to to give me an OK.

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You know, it's it's similar. It came up in my mind.

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Like, at what point did we not ask for data to start walking on two legs?

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You know, like it's it's one of those things that's just logically the next step, you know.

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And so and so for me, it's just a more efficient way to to get people, you know, to liberate themselves, to really enjoy life for for what it's worth and and put these things aside that we've carried with us for for way too long.

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Well, we'll get into it a little bit, but two of my firefighter friends, one close friend and another one that I met through this relationship.

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Are here today because of your medicine and they had tried the traditional pharmaceutical talk therapy route, and both of them were at the absolute end of their rope.

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And that's not an analogy. So, you know, I can attest just, you know, just from the two that have gone to you that I know personally, I want to get to your kind of journey before we get to that, though.

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So you talked about, you know, where you grew up. What about athletics and sport? What were you playing when you were in school age?

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So being in a small town, if you're good at one thing, you have to be good at everything, you know.

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So I was literally involved in everything. I played football, basketball, baseball, soccer.

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I was also in one act play, speech and debate, you know.

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So it was I was well rounded in that sense and very involved in the community.

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You know, again, I grew up in the Catholic Church, so I was in catechism, eventually became a catechist in my adult years, you know, like so.

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I've always, you know, centered my focus around community, if you will.

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And just because that was instilled in me at such an early age, you know, until I was in seventh grade, I had the same best friends my entire life, you know, until I was moved to a different school and had to find new best friends.

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But I never lost those relationships, you know.

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So for me, having that tribe has always been a part of my life experience.

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But the people that come on the show that have been in a smaller community, I grew up on a farm on the edge of a town.

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I wasn't, I mean, if I'm being completely honest, I wasn't really that entrenched in that town.

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I didn't feel like I had a community there so much because I was on this farm and I went to school in a different city as well.

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But now where I live, this community I live in now, there's four, actually five subdivisions around this communal place.

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There's, you know, a football field and some basketball courts and a pool and everything.

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And so all the kids do go out and ride their bikes and play and come in when the lights come on.

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And so it makes me realize that this is kind of what we're missing, especially in the suburban and urban settings is that communal element.

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You've obviously been all over the world since you grew up.

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What were the pros and cons, if any, of that small town community that you grew up around?

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brings me into why I joined the Air Force, you know, is I was very privileged.

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You know, my parents were successful in this small town and basically I got away with a lot of things I shouldn't have.

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So once I entered into college and I was responsible for my own actions and nobody knew who I was, I started feeling this sense of like, you are not prepared for this situation.

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You know, so in that moment, I decided to join the military. I was like, well, if I'm going to need to restructure myself, this seems to be the best way to do that.

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You know, to completely strip the name away from my life experience and just throw myself into finding myself through my military experience.

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So it was never a limiter, you know, like because again, I was privileged in the sense that no matter where I went, people knew who I was and who my parents were, you know, so it came with its benefits.

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But those benefits didn't translate into adulthood, you know, like where I was never seeking to stay in this small town.

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You know, I always had bigger dreams for myself and as soon as I recognized that those dreams would not be fulfilled because I was so sheltered, you know, in that small town, I decided to make a change.

261
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So you entered the Air Force just before that though, was there anything you were dreaming of becoming while you were at the school age before you made that transition?

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You know, looking back, I was probably going to be a lawyer, you know, like that's that was what I was set up to be, you know, and all of my education, things like that were pointed at that.

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And then I was really good at speech and debate, you know, qualifying for state multiple years, you know, so that just seemed to be a big part of my career.

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You know, and so it was either that or inevitably taking on the family business, you know, running the insurance agency.

265
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So, you know, as a teenager, the last thing you want to do is work with your parents, you know, so shoving that aside, I eventually did, you know, I eventually became an insurance agent when I got out of the Air Force.

266
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But but yeah, I was I was on the path to becoming a lawyer. And and that's thankfully not the path that I ended up.

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When you look back now with this mature lens, were there any elements of your upbringing that you consider compounding trauma?

268
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Oh, absolutely. Yeah. You know, for one, growing up on on a ranch is a lot of work.

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And we're working with with, you know, animals that that are humongous, you know, like there's there's a lot of a lot of risk, a lot of threat of injury, things like that.

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So so on the physical side, that was an issue.

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The small town I was in substance abuse was was really common.

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You know, it was it was a part of life, you know, so so it was a part of life.

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And you know, there was a lot there was a lot there. And, you know, thankfully, I always had support, things like that.

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But but nonetheless, those those wounds were evident, you know, and in my character and in my character, I was a victim of substance abuse.

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And so I was a victim of substance abuse.

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And so I was a victim of substance abuse.

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You know, I had a lot of support, things like that. But but nonetheless, those those wounds were were evident, you know, and in my character and in my ability to to, you know, trust people, things like that.

278
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So so, yeah, I had I had several and then near near death experiences, you know, like as a result of, you know, one time I fell into a trailer with the bull and barely made it out.

279
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absolutely affected my life.

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When I started this podcast, the first handful of episodes were a little bit more superficial.

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And then as time went on and people kind of enlightened me on the impact of early life

282
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and some of these other areas, I just kind of opened the door a little wider for people

283
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when we're having this early life conversation and was blown away by how many men especially

284
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suffered sexual abuse when they were children.

285
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And yet you'd look at these men and obviously this is the same with women, but I mean the

286
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men of, you know, we don't talk about male sexual abuse usually.

287
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And if we do it some pedophile that comes to prominence and we talk about it and then

288
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we tuck it away again.

289
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But these are SAS, Navy SEALs, firefighters, SWAT officers, I mean you name it, you know,

290
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what one would call a quote unquote manly man.

291
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And you know, I was just, I was, I was amazed.

292
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So there's so many people that are suffering.

293
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That's just one element.

294
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That's just sexual trauma and that's not, you know, going around addiction and, you

295
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know, a violent household, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

296
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What was your, having that as your own personal life, did you start to see that with some

297
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of the men and women in uniform that you started working with?

298
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Oh, absolutely.

299
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It's very common, you know, and now what I attribute it to is eventually we'll talk about

300
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this in more detail, but in my observation of working with veterans and first responders,

301
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there's one commonality in the fact that a person is willing to sign their life away

302
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for service, you know, which is on a very basic level, what you do when you join the

303
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military, you know, or even, you know, as a firefighter or law enforcement, you're,

304
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you're putting your life on the line for this duty, you know, this sense of duty.

305
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So that to me is an indicator that something has happened in their lives to say that this

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is okay.

307
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Like I'm willing to risk it at this point, you know, like, and I know through, through

308
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my own experience of dealing with post-traumatic stress disorder, you know, I never had suicidal

309
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ideations, but what I've come to realize is I was slowly killing myself with alcohol and

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drugs.

311
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You know, I was, I was taking a more acceptable approach to risking my life to a point where,

312
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where I was threatening my own life, you know, so, so for me, it's, it's coming to the understanding

313
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that that has to root somewhere, you know, and, and for me, a lot of the work that we

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do with veterans and first responders is, is not the occurrences that happened in the

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line of duty, but from the timeframe of before they decided to sign their lives away, you

316
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know, so, so that's including all of the, all of the traumas in childhood and, and the,

317
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the teenage years, you know, so, so for me, it's impossible to ignore that that is partly

318
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a large part of the reason why people joined the military in the first place.

319
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Yeah.

320
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And I agree completely.

321
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And they say that our ACE scores in uniform are a lot higher than the average civilian.

322
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You think about it, you know, if you, if you've been hurt, then you're either going to curl

323
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up into a ball or you're going to be someone that says, all right, it stops here.

324
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I'm going to, I'm going to protect people for a living.

325
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You look about the adrenal element, you know, the, when you are busy in combat, in fires,

326
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you know, in, in law enforcement, that adrenaline is, is kind of filling the void.

327
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So you don't have to think about other stuff, you know, so there's so many layers to it

328
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that makes perfect sense.

329
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A lot of us enter this profession.

330
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And I've talked about this when we are tested in the fire service, as far as, you know,

331
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to get selected for the job, there's a polygraph, and then there's this thing called the Minnesota

332
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interview personality.

333
00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:22,800
I always get it wrong, but anyway, it was never meant to select us.

334
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And I've always said, why don't we take that same money that agencies are spending and

335
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put it on counseling?

336
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,320
So when you get hired as a police officer, you know, you figure out if we're good or

337
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bad by our test scores on our background check.

338
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And then, you know, that probationary year, give them six, you know, sessions so they

339
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can start offloading some of the things that they brought into the job, which I would argue,

340
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:46,960
once you process trauma, that becomes a strength.

341
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You become more resilient then.

342
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:56,160
No, of course, and that's honestly what drives my service today is all of my life experience

343
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as being relatable to others, you know, like so it is because I've navigated a lot of the

344
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traumas that we're treating people for, or, you know, people are coming to these medicines

345
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for I should say.

346
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Because I've experienced a lot of that is why I'm able to help them navigate through

347
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that experience, you know.

348
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:21,060
And that was a lot of the training that I received through my certification as an integration

349
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coach, you know, for psychedelics is understanding that there's power in listening and that there's

350
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a difference of the approach that a psychologist or a psychiatrist takes when they have a patient

351
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in front of them than an integration coach does.

352
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And it's in that they're trying to identify symptoms in the person to treat, you know,

353
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or common, you know, psychological issues.

354
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Like, so then you get put on a path, you know, but there can be complexities in there that

355
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:58,400
don't necessarily fit that bill, you know, like where this is narcissism, you know, or

356
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:03,520
this is like, so I'm going to drive the conversation bit like straight to narcissism.

357
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If you just allow the conversation to evolve a little bit more, then you start realizing

358
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that it's rooted in a trauma.

359
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And it just affords a little more opportunity when you're listening and being, you know,

360
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:23,240
present in the moment rather than calculating and looking for cues and triggers within the

361
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conversation.

362
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,280
There's a phrase that I love, I've heard, I mean, it's someone else's quote, but, you

363
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,800
know, instead of saying what's wrong with you, you ask what happened to you.

364
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And you talked about narcissism, obviously now in the world of social media, you look

365
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,800
at these people, you know, we had them when we were younger too, and you call them a showoff.

366
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So they were, but now with this kind of, you know, more mature lens, I'm like, ah, what,

367
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you know, what's your story?

368
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:52,520
Why do you feel like you need a thousand likes or that every, every video you put up, you're

369
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shirtless, you know, lifting weights or whatever it is, you know, and I see it way more empathetically

370
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:03,840
now that yeah, if you have to be out there and have to seek validation, you should probably

371
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,680
do some soul searching into the why.

372
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,040
No, absolutely.

373
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:15,280
And people pleasing, I think is another, another issue in our culture, you know, here in the

374
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West, like we're, we're trained to, you know, like there's like just the school system alone,

375
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you know, like we're, we're the, we're the grade system is, is rewarding to the people

376
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:30,200
who are getting hundreds and nineties on, on their tests, you know, and then you're

377
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,160
kind of shunned for having an issue with the, with the lesson.

378
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:39,640
Like, so it's, it becomes this, this rat race, like where, where you are seeking out, you

379
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,720
know, the approval of others and inevitably becomes people pleasing.

380
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:48,040
And now you can't do anything without the acknowledgement of others, you know, like,

381
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:52,880
so in my life, you know, I was a, that was something that I had to overcome is, is people

382
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:58,880
pleasing without a doubt, you know, especially when I was, I was pushed out into even a new

383
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:05,360
school where, you know, I went from the, being the most popular kid in, in my class to nobody

384
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:06,360
knew who I was.

385
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:11,160
I started like changing who I was, you know, just to fit in, you know, I used to listen

386
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:12,880
to rock and roll my entire life.

387
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,560
And then, you know, I went into a school that listened to hip hop and all of a sudden I

388
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:22,440
was sagging my pants and, and listening to rap, you know, so it was, it's interesting,

389
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:27,920
you know, like what we have to do in those tribal situations where, where acceptance

390
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,640
becomes and, you know, a really important factor.

391
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:36,080
Like, so, and so people pleasing in my mind is, is a part of the Western culture, you

392
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,920
know, the more people you please, the more benefit you get.

393
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:45,560
So, so it's, it creates a lot of it in authenticity in people, you know, where you don't even

394
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,700
know what you like, you know, like, and that's kind of what I love about my experience of

395
00:32:49,700 --> 00:32:55,160
being a jack of all trades is I'm good at everything, you know, like I'm okay at everything,

396
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,080
I should say, I'm not, I'm not the best at, at anything because of it either.

397
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:00,080
Right.

398
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,440
But I, and it, what it allowed me to do once I realized that, that my actions were just

399
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:08,600
to please others and say, okay, well, these things and these people that were related

400
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:10,600
to these things no longer serve me.

401
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:16,040
So it was an easy severance, you know, of, of what it is that I wanted to, to spend my

402
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:22,560
life doing rather than what it is other people wanted, wanted me to do.

403
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,920
So when you entered the air force, what was your specialty in uniform?

404
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:32,960
I was a satellite wideband and telemetry, like so, which inevitably led to me becoming

405
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:39,120
an engineer for, for satellite communications and combat communications squadron.

406
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:45,840
So I worked, I worked with the physical equipment, setting up, you know, setting up satellite

407
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:50,000
terminals and line of sight dishes in, in theater.

408
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:55,920
I was doing that outside of the wire anytime we had a new territory taken over by, by the

409
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,960
army or the Marines, they'd send me in to survey.

410
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,960
And then a few days later, I'd come back with equipment and set that up so that, so that

411
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:07,360
they can, you know, have internet and, and reliable communications.

412
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,840
Now, I don't know if I'm getting confused with someone else.

413
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:16,080
Was it you and I that we're talking, did you find yourself around incidents as far as after

414
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,400
IEDs or am I thinking of someone else?

415
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:19,720
No, I did.

416
00:34:19,720 --> 00:34:24,000
I don't remember having that conversation with you though, but, but there's a lot of

417
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:29,600
us, you know, so, so no, no problem there, but yeah, a lot of what, what my traumas in

418
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:30,600
the air force were.

419
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:31,880
And I think it's beautiful.

420
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:37,840
Now looking at it from, from my responsibility currently is I was always in the position

421
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:43,120
of an observer, never, never, you know, close, I was always close enough to the front lines,

422
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:48,680
but never engaged with the enemy, you know, and I think the closest ever was one time

423
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:54,840
I was at a, at a forward operating base and the saw gunner told me I have to go up to

424
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:56,640
this hill and start shooting.

425
00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:02,540
And if my body rolls down the hill, I need you to get on the saw and keep like at least

426
00:35:02,540 --> 00:35:04,120
giving cover fire.

427
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:09,200
And I remember that moment saying like, man, I am, I'm trained with an M16 and an M9.

428
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:10,720
I don't know how to use the saw.

429
00:35:10,720 --> 00:35:14,080
Like what am I going to do if this, if this actually plays out?

430
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:19,040
And thankfully it didn't, you know, but that was the closest to me accepting that role,

431
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:24,240
you know, saying like, I'm going to have to do this, you know, to, to protect my life

432
00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:26,640
and the life of others.

433
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:33,240
But very, very close to, you know, mortar fire, always in, in that, that kind of heat

434
00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:39,000
of battle, you know, because again, we were, we were stationed at a primary base and all

435
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,200
of my experience was in Afghanistan.

436
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,920
So I was either a Bagram Air Force base or Kandahar.

437
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:52,280
And we would wait for communications either to be a necessity in a new base or, or for

438
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,640
them to get hit by a mortar or, or, you know, enemy fire.

439
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,400
So they need to be repaired.

440
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,800
So we were on standby until we were called.

441
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:05,420
And when we were called, we were going out of the wire and into these less safe environments.

442
00:36:05,420 --> 00:36:07,280
So there was always gunfire.

443
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,640
There was always attacks going on when, when I was there, especially if it had just been

444
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,840
hit by a mortar, you know, you're looking at the remnants, trying to figure out, you

445
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:20,100
know, what was still usable or what parts, you know, you needed to change out in order

446
00:36:20,100 --> 00:36:21,760
to get the communications back.

447
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:28,320
So very high stress and absolutely life threatening.

448
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,120
You've got a technical view when it comes to Bagram.

449
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:35,440
One of the things that I hear over and over again about the withdrawal is that we should

450
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:40,160
never have left the base, you know, if nothing else, we should at least, you know, left some

451
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:41,500
forces there.

452
00:36:41,500 --> 00:36:46,280
And that's, you know, from the Afghan voice, from the American voice with that perspective,

453
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:50,640
I mean, you've probably got a more logistics view than, than maybe some of the actual,

454
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:52,120
you know, war fighters themselves.

455
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:56,400
What's your perspective on the withdrawal and, you know, from a communications point

456
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,560
of view, from an Intel point of view, what do you think should have happened if you were

457
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:01,720
king for a day?

458
00:37:01,720 --> 00:37:02,720
I would agree.

459
00:37:02,720 --> 00:37:07,800
I would think that, that, you know, it was, it was positioned very strategically Bagram,

460
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:12,760
you know, and it afforded, you know, expeditious response.

461
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:19,520
You know, there was a, there was a lot of benefit to that base in particular.

462
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:24,440
It was beautiful too, you know, like if you got up on some of those mountains, it was,

463
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,520
it was a really nice, nice area.

464
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:34,200
So for me, I think, you know, the withdrawal, I think the motivation being, you know, the

465
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:39,800
threat to, to American lives, you know, is, is inevitably what, what that was about.

466
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:44,560
But, but there was a, there was definitely a struggle afterwards, you know, once, once

467
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:45,760
the withdrawal happens.

468
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,880
So, and so I would agree that that straight on a strategic level, it would have been,

469
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,760
it would have been a much better idea to remain.

470
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:59,200
Now that's kind of like, you know, your, your, your perspective of, you know, the, the more

471
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:03,760
traumatic side, as you said, you know, arriving after mortars and, you know, waiting for a

472
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:05,880
saw gunner to roll down a hill.

473
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:07,120
What about kindness and compassion?

474
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:11,120
That's the other side of war that we don't really hear through our media is, you know,

475
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:16,080
whether it's the indigenous people, whether it's the, the soldiers themselves or airmen,

476
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:20,920
what were moments of kindness and compassion that you remember from Afghanistan?

477
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:27,440
My experience was full of them, you know, like we had for one relationships with interpreters

478
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:34,240
that were, that were Afghani, that were just hard opened individuals, you know, like, and,

479
00:38:34,240 --> 00:38:38,360
and yeah, you only hear about the stories where the interpreter decided to shoot somebody

480
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,080
in the back, you know, but there were thousands of them.

481
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:46,920
And the isolated incident in my mind is only to motivate us to continue this path of war,

482
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:47,920
you know?

483
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:52,520
And so, and so it's, it's a seed of distrust that is planted in the mind so that you don't

484
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,000
turn your back to that situation, you know?

485
00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:03,240
But in, in my experience, they always offered a cup of chai, you know, like, and, and a

486
00:39:03,240 --> 00:39:07,960
plate of food, like no matter what we would go into the bazaars and in these cities just

487
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:14,800
outside of, of the, the forward operating bases or even the major bases, and they were

488
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:15,800
welcoming, you know?

489
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,960
So there were, there were children you had to look out for, they would always try to

490
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:23,400
take your leathermen or whatever's hanging off of your belt, you know, and run away,

491
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:28,720
like just out of curiosity, but, but they were, they were a kind people, you know?

492
00:39:28,720 --> 00:39:34,880
And you can, you could see the influence that we had in, in creating higher stress levels

493
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:39,320
in their day-to-day life too, you know, just seeing us in uniform, even though they knew

494
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:45,960
us, there was that immediate response of like, like there is a, there's a war fighter here,

495
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:50,600
you know, like so, and so seeing that too was, was something notable, you know, like

496
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:56,480
just, just our presence altering their chemistry in that way, you know, has to be, has to be

497
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:57,480
difficult.

498
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:04,480
Also, you know, I, they helped every opportunity they had, you know, like they would, if they

499
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:09,360
saw us loading equipment, they would help us load equipment, you know, there, there

500
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:15,280
was absolutely kindness and compassion the entire time I was there, even, even in working

501
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:22,160
with the other, the other countries, you know, like I was with the Royal Air Force for, for

502
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:28,320
about three, three months or so working in, in Kabul.

503
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:33,200
And that handshake was also really notable, working with the Chinese army, working, I'm

504
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:38,720
sorry, the Korean army, working with, with, you know, other countries in that capacity,

505
00:40:38,720 --> 00:40:45,800
it was also very, very interesting, you know, to see that we were all supporting, you know,

506
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:51,720
this mission of liberating, you know, the Afghanis, if you will, depending on where

507
00:40:51,720 --> 00:40:58,160
you stand, but, but in either case, it was, it was definitely evident.

508
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:06,360
I just went to Dallas to interview two Iwo Jima veterans for the 7X project and the Uber

509
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:12,320
from the airport to the hotel was a gentleman from Afghanistan and I, I'm, you know, I can

510
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,520
tell if people don't want to talk, but I'll always spark up a conversation in Uber because

511
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:17,080
you never know who you're going to talk to.

512
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:21,800
I mean, I was talking to an IT guru on the way back to the airport, a lady, and she was

513
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,800
talking about, it was just the second time I've heard that now, how some of the IT world

514
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,320
is struggling with jobs at the moment, which makes no sense to me, you know, everything

515
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:35,960
we do is now technical, but anyway, but back to the Afghan gentleman, yeah, he was an interpreter

516
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:41,400
with the army, you know, and here he is now driving an Uber, you know, on the way to this

517
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:42,400
hotel.

518
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:46,000
So, you know, it's amazing again, hearing his story, he didn't go into too much depth,

519
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,280
but yeah, he was, he was fortunate enough to come over here through the program back

520
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:51,280
in 2015.

521
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:56,280
So before the withdrawal, but yeah, I mean, you know, he, he absolutely loves it here.

522
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,480
He still goes back to Afghanistan, which is, you know, it is interesting too.

523
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:03,840
Like he says he can go to and fro, you know, he's, he's got an American passport and he,

524
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:04,840
you know, they let him in.

525
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:10,240
So I know the, I love hearing all these different voices and perspectives, because as I say,

526
00:42:10,240 --> 00:42:15,440
usually with this question, you know, we get such polarizing views on the television and

527
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:20,480
usually they are nothing like the actual boots on the ground conversations I have with real

528
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:21,480
people.

529
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:25,320
No, I would agree wholeheartedly.

530
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:30,560
I mean, honestly, they're just, they're human beings that are, that are located just geographically

531
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:35,080
in a different place, you know, like, so, so I think once we recognize it for what it

532
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:40,640
is, you know, like human nature, like, and even, even just their ideals and their, their

533
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:45,240
beliefs are a product of where, where they are, you know, like that is just culturally

534
00:42:45,240 --> 00:42:48,840
how they lead their lives or choose to lead their lives.

535
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:54,280
Like, but, but if you believe in, in the origin of, of humanity, which is, you know, I don't

536
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:59,600
know very many people that don't, you know, like there's, there's just an opportunity

537
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:06,480
of, of, you know, supporting your, your beliefs and your culture that you were born into,

538
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,400
you know, we could have easily rolled the dice and ended up in one of those countries.

539
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:14,880
And I think we forget that, you know, like coming into this life experience.

540
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:21,680
So, so we are in my mind privileged in, in many ways, but also, you know, like we have

541
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:25,880
this idea in our heads that, that our way is the best way.

542
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:31,720
And, and that unfortunately is, is why we're finding ourselves in Afghanistan and leaving,

543
00:43:31,720 --> 00:43:34,800
leaving with the traumas that we're bringing home.

544
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:39,000
I wish I'd been able to save it, but I saw a video on you on the Instagram a few weeks

545
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:43,640
ago now, and it was again, some sort of, you know, university discussion.

546
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:48,200
And I can't remember what the person had posed to the guy, but he basically said that, that

547
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,400
your religion is based purely on where you were born.

548
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,960
It's it's like you said, it's a lottery, you know, if you were born in Afghanistan, there's

549
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:56,460
a good chance you'd be a Muslim.

550
00:43:56,460 --> 00:44:01,680
If you were born in America in 2023 is a good chance you might be in a Christian family,

551
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:03,240
et cetera, et cetera.

552
00:44:03,240 --> 00:44:08,120
And so when you look at that, you know, I mean, I'm, I'm much more of a universal spiritual,

553
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:09,120
you know, spirituality.

554
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:14,080
There seems to be some pretty solid common denominators amongst most of the faiths.

555
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:15,360
That's what I lean into.

556
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:22,760
But to then fight and have wars, especially when you start splitting an actual religion,

557
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:28,360
Protestant, Catholic, et cetera, et cetera, it just, it's, it's lunacy to me because most

558
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:29,840
of us agree with the same thing.

559
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:33,800
Like don't murder your neighbor, you know, don't molest a sheep.

560
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:37,720
I mean, there's some pretty, pretty solid things that most people will be like, yeah,

561
00:44:37,720 --> 00:44:39,200
you've got a good point there.

562
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:43,640
And it just kills me to see, you know, Gaza and I mean, all these different things, all

563
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:48,760
these different disagreements when fundamentally, if you reverse engineering, it's never about

564
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:49,760
religion.

565
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:53,640
It's about power and greed at the end of the day by a few tyrants that, you know, rile

566
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:55,640
up a population.

567
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,840
No, I agree.

568
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:03,540
And that's, you know, we, we have our privilege really to, to conversations with, with many

569
00:45:03,540 --> 00:45:05,120
different spiritual beliefs.

570
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:12,200
You know, our, our community is open to all religions, all, all, all ideals, you know,

571
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:18,440
because we see these as tools to, to strengthen the foundation at which we, we, you know,

572
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:23,960
have a premise for faith, you know, so very much like you, you know, I grew up Catholic

573
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:28,320
and, and, you know, very Christian in that sense.

574
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:35,320
But I always struggled with, with the dogma and the religious, you know, practice as,

575
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:39,320
as a whole, you know, like for some reason I could never connect with why I have to tell

576
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:45,320
another human being, you know, what my sins are in order for this other human being to,

577
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:51,880
to, you know, grant me liberty, if you will, you know, like so, so that, that was always

578
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:53,320
troubling for me.

579
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:59,040
Currently, like, because we offer in this way, like I fixate on universal truths, you

580
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:05,120
know, finding, finding what all these teachers were trying to teach and, and isolating the

581
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:09,680
common ground and just fixating on that, you know, like really, really turning that into

582
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:14,100
the lessons that I'm offering people, you know, so, so at that point you don't step

583
00:46:14,100 --> 00:46:19,520
on any toes, you know, and it, and it becomes spiritual rather than religious, you know,

584
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:25,240
I think that that is where conflict lies is when, when a religion says that this is the

585
00:46:25,240 --> 00:46:30,360
badge that you wear and no other badges is worth acknowledging, right?

586
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,200
Like so, so we are the winning team.

587
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:35,600
We're the only ones that go to heaven because these are the things that we do.

588
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:37,400
And to me is ludicrous.

589
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:41,880
You know, I can't imagine a God that says, because you were born in the Middle East,

590
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:46,920
you are, you are basically guaranteed damnation because you're not Catholic or you're not

591
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:47,920
Christian.

592
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:52,120
You know, for me, it's just, it's, it's ludicrous, you know, like so.

593
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:59,200
And so I think that God wants harmony, you know, once, wants us to be more in line with

594
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:06,080
laws of nature, which are not far, not far away from, you know, the, the 10 commandments

595
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:12,000
or, or any of the other, you know, religious, religious, you know, doctrination, like so.

596
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:14,680
And so for me, I would agree with you wholeheartedly.

597
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:21,440
Like, you know, that, that religion is geographical, you know, historically, there's also a reason

598
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:26,320
these teachers didn't all exist at the same time, you know, like, so it's, it's just,

599
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:28,160
there's a lot there to look at.

600
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:32,720
And for me, I'm fortunate to, you know, really that's my profession to look at all those

601
00:47:32,720 --> 00:47:38,960
things and, and make the conversation work best for, for the majority.

602
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:39,960
Absolutely.

603
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:42,920
I always live, love listening to Wayne Dyer.

604
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:48,280
I don't know if you've heard of him, but he almost described him as a white Deepak Chopra,

605
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:52,720
but that's not exactly the right description, but he was just, he would just gather all

606
00:47:52,720 --> 00:47:55,120
this wisdom and it could be from religious texts.

607
00:47:55,120 --> 00:48:02,400
It could be from, you know, Roman and Greek mythology, you know, whatever it was.

608
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:06,880
And they would just extract the good from it, the commonalities, you know, so I kind

609
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:09,720
of always loved his, cause it was just, right.

610
00:48:09,720 --> 00:48:12,880
You know, where do the, where these Venn diagrams overlap?

611
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:14,200
Where's the real truth here?

612
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,400
And it's, you know, it's kindness, compassion, gratitude.

613
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:21,240
I mean, you could probably label them on one hand at the end of the day, the real tenets

614
00:48:21,240 --> 00:48:23,880
to be a good human being.

615
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:26,680
No, I would agree.

616
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:31,560
And it's, you know, what you're referring to is, is Omnism, you know, like the Omnistic

617
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:36,680
approach to, to spirituality, which, which basically recognizes all religions as an opportunity

618
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:42,120
to learn something through a different perspective, you know, and that's, that's essentially what

619
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:46,960
Agape Church offers here is, is, you know, open doors to any religion, you know, and

620
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:52,800
very recently we've had a lot of, a lot of Muslim women coming to the women's retreats

621
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:54,240
and it's a beautiful thing.

622
00:48:54,240 --> 00:48:58,960
You know, I don't have the qualifications to, to unfortunately attend one of these,

623
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:04,480
you know, it's women only, which, which kind of drives the point, but because Muslim women

624
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:10,680
are in the safety of knowing that only women will be, will be offering in these retreats,

625
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:16,720
they're able to take off their hijabs and, and, you know, that freedom alone is, is healing

626
00:49:16,720 --> 00:49:22,360
for them, you know, just ensuring that, that they're only in the presence of women, you

627
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:28,560
know, based on their faith allows them to, to be more comfortable in their prayer, you

628
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:29,560
know.

629
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:35,040
But it's, it's for us really interesting to observe, you know, how other religions are,

630
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:40,320
are utilizing these practices in the ceremonies that we're offering.

631
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:41,320
Beautiful.

632
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:46,120
Well, with your mental health journey, you talked about a lot of trauma going into the

633
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:47,120
military.

634
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:50,640
Now you're, you know, serving overseas in Afghanistan.

635
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:55,600
A lot of men and women in uniform seem to struggle when they transition out, when they

636
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:59,180
were in uniform, as we talked about, you know, filling the void of trauma, you know, we do

637
00:49:59,180 --> 00:50:07,160
have purpose, we have a tribe, you know, we have community, we have, you know, the, the,

638
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:11,720
the community that allows us to kind of decompress, you know, we have all the things and then

639
00:50:11,720 --> 00:50:16,760
one day we walk out the door, the fire station, you know, whatever it is.

640
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:20,560
And now a lot of these people find themselves back at home when no one really understands

641
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:21,560
what they did.

642
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:25,040
No one kind of talks or thinks the same way as a lot of the people around them.

643
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:26,680
And there's a, there's a big struggle.

644
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:32,720
What was your transition like at that point?

645
00:50:32,720 --> 00:50:38,760
So I had a unique transition in that when I left the air force, I went straight into

646
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:40,880
contracting.

647
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:46,680
So I got out of the air force and then like a month later I went back to Afghanistan as

648
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:52,740
a, as a satellite communications engineer for in a civilian capacity.

649
00:50:52,740 --> 00:50:57,360
So my transition I would say happened after that experience.

650
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:01,160
You know, I lived in Afghanistan for a year as a civilian.

651
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:08,760
At this point, my son was to the age where he started associating his relationship with

652
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:14,320
his father with a laptop, like because I was satellite communications, I always had a decent

653
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:16,040
internet in Afghanistan.

654
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:21,920
So we would zoom with, with my son and, and my wife at the time every day, you know, like

655
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:28,520
every evening, unless I had to, had to jump out to a cop or a fob like for a week or whatever,

656
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:32,480
he started hugging the laptop and wanting to go to sleep with the laptop.

657
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:37,360
So for me, that was heartbreaking, you know, so I had to make a decision, you know, and

658
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:42,280
with satellite communications as a profession, you're basically guaranteeing that you're

659
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:49,120
going to be in austere conditions, you know, like anywhere that cable is not easily ran,

660
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:50,240
you know, like so.

661
00:51:50,240 --> 00:51:55,720
And so even the jobs that were available to me here at stateside were working on a ship,

662
00:51:55,720 --> 00:52:02,360
you know, providing maritime satellite communications for an oil rig, things like that, you know,

663
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:08,000
or working in an oil field in deep Texas, you know, where there's, you know, only cows

664
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:09,000
in sight.

665
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:14,280
Like, so it's, it was for me a really hard decision, but I ended up joining, you know,

666
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:18,700
the family business is where we, where we make that, that full circle, you know, from

667
00:52:18,700 --> 00:52:19,700
before.

668
00:52:19,700 --> 00:52:21,920
But I got my insurance license.

669
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:26,480
I always tell everybody I was in trouble so much in high school that I was either rebuilding

670
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:30,760
fences that the cows broke or working in my parents' office.

671
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:35,920
It's like, so, you know, filing and creating at that time, you had to use a typewriter

672
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:43,900
to make the ID cards for car insurance, you know, so I got really familiar with the practice

673
00:52:43,900 --> 00:52:45,720
and that answering phones, things like that.

674
00:52:45,720 --> 00:52:47,440
So getting my license was a breeze.

675
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:54,560
You know, I took the licensing test as soon as I got fulfilled that contract and went

676
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:56,240
straight to work with my parents.

677
00:52:56,240 --> 00:53:04,240
But in the cultural transition, I think losing a sense of purpose, like, you know, I knew

678
00:53:04,240 --> 00:53:08,360
exactly what I was supposed to be doing in the military and then getting kind of thrown

679
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:16,800
into the civilian world, not having that sense of purpose and a reason, you know, to perform

680
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:21,200
actions, you know, if you will, was really interesting for me.

681
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:26,640
I was also really used to not being around my family, you know, like the way that I used

682
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:32,240
to provide for my wife and my child was through deployments and through exercises and preparing

683
00:53:32,240 --> 00:53:35,000
and, you know, earning a paycheck in that way.

684
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:40,820
So being more present with my family was also, you know, something I had to get used to.

685
00:53:40,820 --> 00:53:47,760
And then there was the, you know, I had basically become a professional alcoholic in the military.

686
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:53,800
Like, so I found myself drinking way more alcohol than normal people do, you know, and

687
00:53:53,800 --> 00:54:00,840
then inevitably finding the other people who had an alcoholic or the alcoholism, you know,

688
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:04,840
just to find a baseline, you know, and be like, okay, well, these people are keeping

689
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:07,840
up with the pace that I'm used to, you know.

690
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:14,360
So there was an interesting transition without a doubt, you know, and socially, I know that

691
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:20,040
hypervigilance and social anxiety were actually the cues for me to realize that there was

692
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:21,360
something wrong with me.

693
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:28,000
You know, I always had, you know, a decent personality, you know, I was always a social

694
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:33,920
person, but all of a sudden, you know, when I came back, I was not able to even listen

695
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:38,360
to somebody having a conversation with me because I was fixated on the room, you know,

696
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:41,720
I could never sit with my back to the entrance or the exit.

697
00:54:41,720 --> 00:54:46,680
You know, there was a lot of that that keyed in, that I keyed into that, that allowed me

698
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:52,560
to identify that I had post-traumatic stress, you know, from my, from my experiences overseas.

699
00:54:52,560 --> 00:55:00,240
So a lot of that was, is what I would say, you know, led me to, to diagnosing myself,

700
00:55:00,240 --> 00:55:07,760
really like accepting it for myself and, and realizing for myself that what, what I was

701
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:12,200
living was not normal.

702
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:20,200
It seems when I listen to a lot of these transition stories, that the times that people finally

703
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:25,480
have a healthy transition is usually something that replicates what they did before.

704
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:28,080
Now, I'm not talking about military to contracting.

705
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:32,240
I'm just talking about using the overall skills in a different way.

706
00:55:32,240 --> 00:55:38,040
And the people that go into the world of finance, or I would argue maybe insurance, where maybe

707
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:44,200
there isn't a strong feeling of service, of giving back, is when they struggle.

708
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:49,840
But when they're able to find, for example, the church, you know, a way that they're actually

709
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:56,040
still serving outside of the uniform, that's where it seems like it's the therapeutic element.

710
00:55:56,040 --> 00:56:01,960
What was your experience with that?

711
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:07,680
I would agree, you know, like I feel a hundred percent fulfilled in my role now, you know,

712
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:12,360
and even when I was an insurance agent, I found that by serving my community again,

713
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:18,600
like I was the president for Palmer drug abuse program in, in McCallan for, for five years,

714
00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:24,400
you know, so, so even though I was not getting that fulfillment as an insurance agent, you

715
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:28,320
know, there was still, there's a lot of hard conversations to have as an insurance agent

716
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:29,320
too.

717
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:32,840
So I feel like the military prepared me to have difficult conversations with people,

718
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:38,440
you know, but, but in either case, I would agree, you know, like right now I feel, you

719
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:44,680
know, I have a community of 800 people currently, you know, and, and it feels a lot like what

720
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:50,200
I'm used to, like, and the role that I, that I fulfill is, is, you know, at sometimes a

721
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:55,360
managerial role, sometimes a leadership role, sometimes, you know, I'm like, we just had

722
00:56:55,360 --> 00:57:00,840
a deep clean this past weekend with the community and I was, I was pulling cobwebs down and,

723
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:02,720
and moving mattresses, things like that.

724
00:57:02,720 --> 00:57:10,680
So it's, it felt a lot more familiar, if you will, to, to my military experience.

725
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:12,680
So and I've never looked at it through that perspective.

726
00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:15,520
So thank you for bringing that to my attention.

727
00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:20,920
I'll wrap my head around that more clearly for sure, but, but I would a hundred percent

728
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:26,880
agree that, that, you know, and, and admit, you know, that, that, that is a comfort that

729
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:30,760
I am finding in my current position without a doubt.

730
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:31,760
Beautiful.

731
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:35,240
Well, I mean, you're doing so much and we'll, we'll get into, you know, some of the stories

732
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:36,640
in a minute.

733
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:42,140
So you've transitioned out, you're working in insurance, you're trying to find people

734
00:57:42,140 --> 00:57:46,800
that match your level of drinking that mirrors, you know, the time in uniform.

735
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:53,640
Walk me through your own mental health journey and how you found plant medicine.

736
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:58,980
So for me, it was, it was a slow unwinding, you know, I was also, I've always been very

737
00:57:58,980 --> 00:58:04,320
headstrong too, you know, like, so, so there was a level of awareness where, where this

738
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:09,960
was not spilling over too much outside of, outside of my household, you know.

739
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:15,800
But once the, once the drinking started taking a priority over my responsibilities as a husband

740
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:21,240
and a father is when I started looking really closely at my behaviors, you know, like I

741
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:26,320
started realizing for that, for myself, thank God, you know, like, because I know that,

742
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:31,720
that some people are not able to, to identify that in themselves, which makes the recovery

743
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:32,720
process harder.

744
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:36,600
You know, when somebody is telling you, you have a problem, it's different than knowing

745
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:38,400
that you have a problem, you know?

746
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:47,280
So for me, I, I remember clearly that the catalyst for me was I had taken out a group

747
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:55,800
of engineers that I had a large contract with basically for professional liability policy

748
00:58:55,800 --> 00:58:59,120
and drank till like four in the morning.

749
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:04,160
And the next morning at eight o'clock, my son had an awards ceremony that I was supposed

750
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:05,440
to take him to at the time.

751
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:07,740
My wife was a nurse and she was on schedule.

752
00:59:07,740 --> 00:59:14,280
So I decided it was a better idea to keep drinking, to stay awake because I was afraid

753
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:15,960
I was in oversleep.

754
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:19,680
And I made it to like probably six in the morning, but then I didn't wake up till three

755
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:20,820
in the afternoon.

756
00:59:20,820 --> 00:59:24,760
And my son was sitting on the couch next to me waiting for me to wake up.

757
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:28,720
And he said, like, as soon as I woke up, he got really excited and he was like, oh, now

758
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:30,520
it's time to go to the award ceremony.

759
00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:35,400
And I was like, my heart broke, you know, like that was, that was for me, my rock bottom

760
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:39,960
is in knowing that I let him down and he was receiving awards, you know, so it was, it

761
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:40,960
was for me.

762
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:44,360
I, at this time I was already working with the VA too.

763
00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:49,600
And for, I would say the first year or two that I was on pharmaceuticals, I'm really,

764
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:54,760
really thankful for those years because that allowed me to accept that there was an issue.

765
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:59,560
Once I started feeling myself normalizing slightly before the numbing, before all that

766
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:07,840
started to take place in my life, you know, as a result of using pharmaceuticals, I was,

767
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:13,320
I was really clear in knowing that, that there was something to fix.

768
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:17,720
In other words, you know, like something inside was not, was not working correctly.

769
01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:24,160
So I'm very thankful, you know, but then at a certain point, once I started like getting

770
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:29,440
into the numbness of it all, that's really what excelled my, my drug abuse and alcoholism

771
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:34,640
is that I was so numb that I wanted to feel something, you know, and like I was able,

772
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:39,680
I was a busy bee, you know, I was able to listen to people and communicate, but not

773
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:44,080
with the character that I was used to having, you know, so I lost my sense of humor.

774
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:49,240
I was just kind of there, you know, like I was never really present.

775
01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:57,080
So I would, you know, I would basically, I would drink in order to feel something, you

776
01:00:57,080 --> 01:01:01,800
know, and then because of the pharmaceuticals I was on, it took way more alcohol, you know,

777
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:06,160
so I started feeling the physical effects of that and like getting pain and things,

778
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:11,040
pain in my back, having injuries because of the amount of alcohol that I was drinking.

779
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:18,480
So, so it was, it was a really important part of, of, you know, isolating the issue and

780
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:23,960
finding and seeking out an alternative, you know, so at this point I knew that the pharmaceuticals

781
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:28,560
weren't working for me, not in the way that they, that I expected them to, you know, but

782
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:30,360
I knew that I had a problem.

783
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:34,660
So I started, you know, my search like, like most people do on the internet, looking for

784
01:01:34,660 --> 01:01:42,200
alternatives to, to like, really I did a search of like cures for PTSD and then it pointed

785
01:01:42,200 --> 01:01:49,000
me to Joe Rogan podcast, you know, and, and I was listening to Graham Hancock talk about

786
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:57,160
his experience with ayahuasca and in the comments of that YouTube video, I, I started like unearthing

787
01:01:57,160 --> 01:02:02,080
opportunities to sit with ayahuasca, you know, so a lot of that pointed towards Peru and

788
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:04,280
this is right when COVID hit.

789
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:06,400
So travel restrictions happened.

790
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:12,640
I was actually so committed that I was looking at smuggling myself into Peru to, to, you

791
01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:17,080
know, gain access to this and what I thought could, could help me.

792
01:02:17,080 --> 01:02:22,640
But then I identified again in the comments of all these YouTube videos that there were

793
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:27,520
churches and theogenic churches that offered, you know, ayahuasca as a sacrament here in

794
01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:29,200
the United States.

795
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:35,760
So in discovering that 30 days after there was a retreat available and through my research,

796
01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:40,640
I already knew that I needed to get off of my pharmaceuticals, you know, 30 days before

797
01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:45,240
I wouldn't recommend anybody do what I did, you know, but I cold turkey stopped taking

798
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:52,320
my medications to prepare for this ceremony and I showed up to, to a retreat weekend.

799
01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:56,080
I had scheduled three sessions, you know, three ceremonies.

800
01:02:56,080 --> 01:03:01,280
I ended up fulfilling two and got so much out of those two that I sat out of the third

801
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:06,040
one just to write, you know, just to journal what it is that had happened.

802
01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:11,440
I came back, I never took a pharmaceutical drug again to this day, you know, like, and

803
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:17,880
I, the journey started, you know, I wouldn't say that I was, I rid myself in that first

804
01:03:17,880 --> 01:03:26,600
experience of, of a lifetime worth of trauma, but I definitely like developed the, the strength

805
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:31,880
and the gumption, if you will, to, to heal myself, you know, further with, with this,

806
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:37,960
you know, different modality and it opened me up spiritually, which, which allowed, you

807
01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:42,820
know, or strengthen my faith to understand that this was, this was beyond physical.

808
01:03:42,820 --> 01:03:48,480
This was beyond, you know, something that I, that I can tangibly say is wrong with me.

809
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:50,560
You know, these are, these are spiritual wounds.

810
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:55,560
These are, these are psychological wounds that, that I was, I was faced with.

811
01:03:55,560 --> 01:04:02,360
And that put me on, on the path, you know, of really learning more and, and becoming,

812
01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:07,640
you know, more active in the spiritual community and inevitably, you know, founding, founding

813
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:10,000
our own church.

814
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:11,040
What about your wife?

815
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:14,040
What was her perception of what worked for you?

816
01:04:14,040 --> 01:04:19,240
And then you bring in her along to create the church.

817
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:32,920
So, so let's say like, because I was, I was married prior to, to meeting Raquel, who is

818
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:34,240
my current wife, right?

819
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:41,240
Like, so what's interesting about, and I'll touch on both because I think both are interesting.

820
01:04:41,240 --> 01:04:47,160
Once my, once my previous wife started feeling the effects of me becoming, you know, a stronger

821
01:04:47,160 --> 01:04:53,000
human being, you know, she started, like, she basically took that as an opportunity

822
01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:57,560
to say, you know, now that I know that, that you are safe and that you are not going to

823
01:04:57,560 --> 01:05:03,120
cause harm to yourself or others, I feel this is the perfect opportunity to, to sever our

824
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:09,440
relationship, you know, so, so my healing gave her the strength and the confidence to

825
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:11,120
say I'm not happy in this relationship.

826
01:05:11,120 --> 01:05:16,040
And the only reason I was here is because I love you as a best friend, not as a husband,

827
01:05:16,040 --> 01:05:23,160
you know, like, so, so we decided to separate and, and honestly, I, it, it was perfect timing,

828
01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:28,200
you know, because I was also feeling obligated to be a better husband to her.

829
01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:33,280
Like, just out of that, you know, just, just out of the fact that I knew that I was, I

830
01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:35,920
was not, you know, I was not giving her my best.

831
01:05:35,920 --> 01:05:41,280
Like, so I felt obligated to show her my best, but in that moment, we both just kind of shake

832
01:05:41,280 --> 01:05:46,360
hands and said, thank God, we don't have to go through this, you know, like, we're like,

833
01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:49,600
I don't feel, I don't want to do this because I feel sorry for you and you don't want to

834
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:55,760
do this because you feel sorry for me, you know, so, so we separate at this time, I'm

835
01:05:55,760 --> 01:06:01,120
fully committed to the church and, you know, I was traveling back and forth to Florida.

836
01:06:01,120 --> 01:06:05,640
I started my certification as an integration guide, things like that.

837
01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:12,000
And I got more, more known, I guess, in the spiritual community.

838
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:17,240
So once I told the guys there in Florida that I was working with, and now they're named

839
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:23,040
Wellness Retreat Alliance, they also work with veterans with a church there in Florida,

840
01:06:23,040 --> 01:06:28,640
that it was getting too taxing for me to, to travel back and forth to Florida.

841
01:06:28,640 --> 01:06:32,280
You know, I was like, look, I love what I do, you know, but I need to find something

842
01:06:32,280 --> 01:06:34,280
closer to home.

843
01:06:34,280 --> 01:06:38,640
In that moment, you know, Justin, the founder told me, well, you know, why don't you reach

844
01:06:38,640 --> 01:06:41,480
out to the, to our sister community in Houston?

845
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:46,000
I was like, Justin, you could have said that like a year ago, you know, like I've been

846
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:50,520
coming back and forth, you know, like, and it's, and it's expensive, you know, like you

847
01:06:50,520 --> 01:06:55,280
could have saved me a lot of money and a lot of time by introducing me, but in reality,

848
01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:59,640
they were two months old, Agape was two months old at that time.

849
01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:04,600
So, so I reached out and you know, I tell this story all the time in our orientations

850
01:07:04,600 --> 01:07:11,800
where, and I'll cut it short, but I basically sent my resume in a WhatsApp message to Raquel,

851
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:12,800
who's now my wife.

852
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:15,800
That must have been a hell of a resume.

853
01:07:15,800 --> 01:07:17,440
I know, right?

854
01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:23,560
Well, what's hilarious is, you know, a book of text, you know, like an airman's dream

855
01:07:23,560 --> 01:07:27,360
of bullet points, you know, like there's no way somebody will tell me no with all these

856
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:32,560
qualifications I send it and there's no way she read it, you know, in the time that she

857
01:07:32,560 --> 01:07:33,560
responded.

858
01:07:33,560 --> 01:07:34,880
She just said, no, we're full.

859
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:36,640
Thank you, but I'll put you on the waiting list.

860
01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:39,320
And I was like, oh my God, are you serious?

861
01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:41,720
You know, and it was like the week of the ceremony.

862
01:07:41,720 --> 01:07:46,940
I got back from the ceremony in Florida on Monday and I sent this message, you know,

863
01:07:46,940 --> 01:07:52,040
so I was, I was sitting in my own thoughts forever rereading the resume, trying to figure

864
01:07:52,040 --> 01:07:55,880
out what I said wrong or what I could have said better, you know, just really stuck in

865
01:07:55,880 --> 01:07:57,280
my own thoughts.

866
01:07:57,280 --> 01:08:02,480
And then it got to Thursday night, which is the night before the ceremony offering.

867
01:08:02,480 --> 01:08:09,040
So I just took a final shot and I said, look, if, if I'm, if anyone canceled, you know,

868
01:08:09,040 --> 01:08:12,360
I'm still willing to come, but you need to let me know soon because I have a six hour

869
01:08:12,360 --> 01:08:15,600
drive from McAllen to Houston.

870
01:08:15,600 --> 01:08:20,080
And that's what sold, sold me to her is, is that dedication.

871
01:08:20,080 --> 01:08:21,320
They weren't paying me to be there.

872
01:08:21,320 --> 01:08:23,840
It was a volunteer, you know, opportunity.

873
01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:28,160
So she, she said, you know what, somebody did cancel, so you're welcome to come and

874
01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:31,360
then come to find when I showed up, there were no volunteers.

875
01:08:31,360 --> 01:08:35,280
There were, it was just me, you know, and she was just protecting the community.

876
01:08:35,280 --> 01:08:39,080
You know, she, she didn't know who I was, even though I came with, you know, Justin

877
01:08:39,080 --> 01:08:45,000
as a reference, like she wasn't willing to risk, you know, the ceremony so close to,

878
01:08:45,000 --> 01:08:46,680
to the offering, you know?

879
01:08:46,680 --> 01:08:50,200
So I showed up and she's like, said to him, I'm really happy you're here.

880
01:08:50,200 --> 01:08:54,160
There's two people that aren't going to drink after all, so they're going to help you and

881
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:55,160
you're going to lead the volunteers.

882
01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:59,080
And I was like, what, you know, like what happened to this waiting list of people that

883
01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:05,500
like, she didn't have a volunteer program at all at this, at this point either.

884
01:09:05,500 --> 01:09:10,560
She was doing everything with, with her best friend, you know, so, so, and, and of course,

885
01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:14,680
the, the Colombian shaman that they were working with at the time.

886
01:09:14,680 --> 01:09:20,040
So, so the weekend went really well, you know, she invited me to come back and to establish

887
01:09:20,040 --> 01:09:23,400
eventually the, the volunteer program.

888
01:09:23,400 --> 01:09:27,960
And then at the, right around that point that I started, you know, becoming more involved

889
01:09:27,960 --> 01:09:34,200
in the community, she, she allowed me to, to start offering integration.

890
01:09:34,200 --> 01:09:38,360
You know, I graduated from the program and I established the integration program for

891
01:09:38,360 --> 01:09:41,120
Agapa Church at that point too.

892
01:09:41,120 --> 01:09:48,640
We inevitably end up in, in Kona, Hawaii for a week, you know, offering an ayahuasca retreat

893
01:09:48,640 --> 01:09:51,320
with, with the Colombian shaman.

894
01:09:51,320 --> 01:09:56,200
And that's really where we found ourselves with, with the first opportunity to, to have

895
01:09:56,200 --> 01:09:59,000
some personal time, you know, together.

896
01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:04,240
So we end up, you know, seven day retreat, everything goes really, really well.

897
01:10:04,240 --> 01:10:11,160
And at the end, all of the volunteers got an Airbnb together for, for two nights, like

898
01:10:11,160 --> 01:10:14,120
right by the beach, something really nice, you know, to decompress.

899
01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:19,840
And, and for some reason, divinity played in and everybody that was supposed to stay

900
01:10:19,840 --> 01:10:24,280
with us ended up somewhere else other than us, you know, so we found ourselves alone

901
01:10:24,280 --> 01:10:28,800
together, getting to know each other better and, and came back as a couple, you know,

902
01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:34,680
so that's kind of where we wrote, you know, all of our plans, you know, we had both just

903
01:10:34,680 --> 01:10:39,840
recently gotten divorced, no, no interest at all in finding somebody else.

904
01:10:39,840 --> 01:10:43,560
And then the perfect person fell in our laps, you know, in that way.

905
01:10:43,560 --> 01:10:47,920
So it was, it was really interesting, the evolution of, of us, you know, and, and when

906
01:10:47,920 --> 01:10:54,160
inevitably became, you know, the agapa church that people have grown to know today.

907
01:10:54,160 --> 01:10:55,160
That's so good to hear.

908
01:10:55,160 --> 01:11:00,000
I was just having a conversation on someone else's podcast yesterday.

909
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:05,520
And we're talking about, you know, my experience, I got divorced and then, you know, there was,

910
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:09,560
there was infidelity, which, you know, totally over and out, not a big deal at all, you know,

911
01:11:09,560 --> 01:11:14,840
and have no, no resentment towards it, but that was the end of that relationship.

912
01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:19,600
And then, you know, I fumbled around dating for a couple of years and then I met my wife

913
01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:24,040
and it was first date and then we spent every day together since, you know, if I'm not working

914
01:11:24,040 --> 01:11:30,800
or she's, she's a med school, she's 300 miles away, but, but I was literally just trying

915
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:33,840
to tell the story of don't give up.

916
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:36,360
Like they're there, that person is out there for you.

917
01:11:36,360 --> 01:11:39,280
Now you may need to do some self work too.

918
01:11:39,280 --> 01:11:43,040
Maybe you found yourself a little off kilter.

919
01:11:43,040 --> 01:11:47,840
So take that time, you know, heal yourself, become that individual that your first partner

920
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:53,040
fell in love with in the first place or, you know, a 10, 20 year version of that.

921
01:11:53,040 --> 01:11:55,320
And then, you know, open your heart again.

922
01:11:55,320 --> 01:11:59,800
And I can see how probably the ceremonies, you know, the forgiveness and, you know, not

923
01:11:59,800 --> 01:12:00,800
having any resentment.

924
01:12:00,800 --> 01:12:02,360
Obviously, like you said, yours was very amicable.

925
01:12:02,360 --> 01:12:05,320
There's a lot of people out there whose divorces weren't.

926
01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:11,280
It seems like another tool if you, if you're in a relationship that's just ended, not failed

927
01:12:11,280 --> 01:12:17,800
ended that plant medicine could be a great way of healing so that you can refine that,

928
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:23,520
that romantic trust in love and that that self-worth again.

929
01:12:23,520 --> 01:12:25,920
Yeah.

930
01:12:25,920 --> 01:12:31,200
And I think, I think ultimately, you know, people fall in love with, with potential of

931
01:12:31,200 --> 01:12:35,160
the other person too, you know, like so, so there's always, there always seems to be

932
01:12:35,160 --> 01:12:40,200
like that settling, like all of these 10 things are perfect, but these two things we can work

933
01:12:40,200 --> 01:12:45,440
on for the rest of our lives or however that looks for, for the individual couple, you

934
01:12:45,440 --> 01:12:53,160
know, like, so I think where the relationships start to start to start to fall apart is when,

935
01:12:53,160 --> 01:12:59,240
when your hopes in that potential actually actualizing are, are starting to slip away,

936
01:12:59,240 --> 01:13:03,700
you know, like, so you start accepting that these things will not change in a person and,

937
01:13:03,700 --> 01:13:08,760
and inevitably that, that, you know, for me, you see that in nature all the time too, you

938
01:13:08,760 --> 01:13:13,480
know, like a seed needs to crack out of its, its shell to, to even become the plant that

939
01:13:13,480 --> 01:13:18,760
it's supposed to be, you know, like, so, so understanding that that which no longer serves

940
01:13:18,760 --> 01:13:23,480
you, you know, should be released as also, you know, an evolution and a maturity of understanding

941
01:13:23,480 --> 01:13:28,880
of relationship, you know, like most people get married as children, you know, like as,

942
01:13:28,880 --> 01:13:33,960
as very young adults that, that are learning, you know, how to, how to be adults together

943
01:13:33,960 --> 01:13:39,640
in many different ways, you know, like, so, so that comes with, with mistakes, you know,

944
01:13:39,640 --> 01:13:43,720
like sometimes you're just enamored, which is why you got married, you know, and, and

945
01:13:43,720 --> 01:13:49,920
that's not enough or it's sustainable for a relationship, you know, so, so it's, I think

946
01:13:49,920 --> 01:13:56,480
you're spot on, you know, like it's something that can absolutely help people is in, you

947
01:13:56,480 --> 01:14:01,240
know, these plant medicines and at this point, it's no secret, it's introducing you to who

948
01:14:01,240 --> 01:14:06,520
you truly are, you know, it's showing you who you are in the moment that, that you are

949
01:14:06,520 --> 01:14:10,480
sitting with these plant medicines. So anything that you brought into the ceremony is what

950
01:14:10,480 --> 01:14:15,640
you're going to be dealing with, you know, and, and that's, that is a wide spectrum of,

951
01:14:15,640 --> 01:14:19,400
of a lifetime of experience for, for people who are coming to these ceremonies for the

952
01:14:19,400 --> 01:14:24,160
first time. So it's also important not to show up with expectations, you know, a lot

953
01:14:24,160 --> 01:14:29,120
of the people, like we work with people who are, are, you know, just getting out of a,

954
01:14:29,120 --> 01:14:35,920
of a divorce situation that are coming to, to find, you know, peace in, in the idea of

955
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:40,120
the divorce. And then they end up just working on all of their childhood traumas. And then

956
01:14:40,120 --> 01:14:44,240
like, they're like, well, but I didn't, I didn't get any receive anything about my divorce.

957
01:14:44,240 --> 01:14:50,240
It's like, well, how do you know that? Like a lot of your behaviors are, are stemming

958
01:14:50,240 --> 01:14:55,960
from these childhood traumas. So eventually it's going to evolve into an understanding

959
01:14:55,960 --> 01:15:00,520
of why your marriage didn't work out, you know, like just, just give it some time, like,

960
01:15:00,520 --> 01:15:04,440
and give yourself some time to understand what it is that you received and you're going

961
01:15:04,440 --> 01:15:09,920
to end up a happier person, you know, with the expectation of, you know, it's like, and

962
01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:15,080
I credit this to, to pharmaceuticals too, if you have a headache, you take a Tylenol,

963
01:15:15,080 --> 01:15:19,480
you know, and then the headache goes away. So people come to these ancestral medicines

964
01:15:19,480 --> 01:15:23,400
with the same idea, you know, like I have PTSD, so I'm going to drink ayahuasca. So

965
01:15:23,400 --> 01:15:27,840
I don't have PTSD anymore. It's like, well, wait a second. It's going to teach you why

966
01:15:27,840 --> 01:15:32,480
the compartmentalization was such an issue for you, you know, and then like whatever

967
01:15:32,480 --> 01:15:36,920
that looks like in your life is what you're going to be addressing. So it's an evolution

968
01:15:36,920 --> 01:15:41,600
of a healing journey, you know, and that's, that's ultimately why it's called the journey

969
01:15:41,600 --> 01:15:46,920
and not a destination, you know, is, is it takes time and it takes dedication to overcome

970
01:15:46,920 --> 01:15:50,200
a lifetime of trauma and experience.

971
01:15:50,200 --> 01:15:56,800
Absolutely. I want to get to, you know, a great example, which is my good friend, Tom,

972
01:15:56,800 --> 01:16:02,480
Tom Hill, but before we do give me an overview, because I mean, I know he's, he's done biote.

973
01:16:02,480 --> 01:16:07,760
He's done ayahuasca. I mean, he's done several now. What are, you know, the, the plant medicine

974
01:16:07,760 --> 01:16:12,920
ceremonies that you do offer in agape specifically?

975
01:16:12,920 --> 01:16:22,320
So we have, we have ayahuasca. We have bufoa alvarius. We have psilocybin mushroom ceremonies.

976
01:16:22,320 --> 01:16:28,120
We have masculine ceremony. So either peyote or San Pedro, depending on, on the person

977
01:16:28,120 --> 01:16:32,840
that's offering those medicines. And then we also work with, with a medicine called

978
01:16:32,840 --> 01:16:41,440
combo. Combo is, is also something that, that bull experience and that's essentially a 20

979
01:16:41,440 --> 01:16:48,480
minute detox. You know, it, it rids the body of, of a lot of, a lot of things. So there's,

980
01:16:48,480 --> 01:16:54,240
it's a purgative experience, but it's not, it's not an antigen, you know, it's, it's

981
01:16:54,240 --> 01:16:59,600
more of a detox experience. So those are, those are the sacraments that we work with

982
01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:02,520
here at, at agape church.

983
01:17:02,520 --> 01:17:07,240
I had a guest on Mike Salemi, who's a, you know, when it comes to strength and conditioning

984
01:17:07,240 --> 01:17:11,360
and nutrition and just wellness in general, but he's definitely one of the gurus.

985
01:17:11,360 --> 01:17:16,200
The kettlebells, you know, the Russian bags, all kinds of things. He's, he's a real, you

986
01:17:16,200 --> 01:17:23,160
know, just open-minded, you know, multifaceted fitness person. But in our last conversation,

987
01:17:23,160 --> 01:17:28,280
he just come back from doing combo. And this is a guy who was already, you know, physically

988
01:17:28,280 --> 01:17:32,720
in a great shape mentally, I'm sure he was doing pretty well. And he raved about it and

989
01:17:32,720 --> 01:17:38,760
just, just the, the aggressive purge that ensued, he said was completely liberating.

990
01:17:38,760 --> 01:17:44,680
Right. Yeah. And for us, you know, the, and the culture we're trying to create around

991
01:17:44,680 --> 01:17:51,320
these plant medicines is, is that such a beneficial part of, of, of the experience, you know,

992
01:17:51,320 --> 01:17:56,160
ridding the body of that, which no longer serves you. But when people are coming to,

993
01:17:56,160 --> 01:17:59,200
to these medicines, that's usually the first question they have. Well, am I going to go

994
01:17:59,200 --> 01:18:03,200
to the restroom? Am I going to throw up? Do I have to, you know, it's like, well, you

995
01:18:03,200 --> 01:18:06,720
don't have to, but that means you're going to hold on to all the things that you're not,

996
01:18:06,720 --> 01:18:11,080
you know, that no longer serve you, you know, like, so, so look at it through, through the

997
01:18:11,080 --> 01:18:16,800
act of releasing the, you know, the limitations and the challenges in your life rather than,

998
01:18:16,800 --> 01:18:21,000
you know, the, the thought that somebody is going to judge you for that action, because

999
01:18:21,000 --> 01:18:26,240
that's ultimately why people don't, don't want to purge, you know, is, is that, you

1000
01:18:26,240 --> 01:18:30,560
know, some people don't like to throw up, right? I get it. But, but most people don't

1001
01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:35,280
like to throw up in a room full of people either, you know, so, so that's where, that's

1002
01:18:35,280 --> 01:18:42,760
where the idea I think is rooted in, in that people are going to see me, you know, in this,

1003
01:18:42,760 --> 01:18:47,840
in this act, you know, so, so there's vulnerability there. And I think that's where, where people

1004
01:18:47,840 --> 01:18:53,080
that are, that are new and coming to the medicine get in their own way, you know, like if, if

1005
01:18:53,080 --> 01:18:56,600
it's that simple, like it would, it would be like saying, you know, my stomach hurts,

1006
01:18:56,600 --> 01:19:00,560
I'm going to take this laxative, but I don't want to go to the restroom. You know, like,

1007
01:19:00,560 --> 01:19:04,240
well, you're taking the laxative because you can't go to the restroom, you know, like,

1008
01:19:04,240 --> 01:19:08,600
so you're going to have to do that, you know, and that's, that's ultimately what we're faced

1009
01:19:08,600 --> 01:19:12,680
with in these plant medicines. We're dealing with all, all the things that we've shelled,

1010
01:19:12,680 --> 01:19:18,080
you know, over the years, you know, anything we didn't want to, to give attention to emotionally,

1011
01:19:18,080 --> 01:19:23,080
physically or spiritually is, is what we're faced with, you know, in, in these ceremonies.

1012
01:19:23,080 --> 01:19:28,160
So, so for me, it's the most, I look forward to the purge and I acknowledged it because

1013
01:19:28,160 --> 01:19:35,960
I acknowledge it as exactly that, ridding my body of what, what is interfering, you know, so, so for me, it's a beautiful thing.

1014
01:19:35,960 --> 01:19:40,400
And it even makes me happy to hear people purge, you know, and that's something Bull,

1015
01:19:40,400 --> 01:19:45,560
you know, has learned in the process too. We have to tell them, like, don't applaud

1016
01:19:45,560 --> 01:19:50,080
when people are purging, you know, like don't, don't like cheer people on, you know, in

1017
01:19:50,080 --> 01:19:54,200
the ceremony space. Like it's, it's good to be happy for people liberating themselves,

1018
01:19:54,200 --> 01:19:59,200
but you know, it gets to that point where you recognize it as just a sacred act, you

1019
01:19:59,200 --> 01:20:04,160
know, like something that, that is, is helping others.

1020
01:20:04,160 --> 01:20:10,480
So speaking of Tom, Tom Bull Hill, he's been on here before. I think it was, I can't remember

1021
01:20:10,480 --> 01:20:15,160
if it was before or after he had the stroke, but you know, it comes out of the fire service,

1022
01:20:15,160 --> 01:20:20,840
30 plus years as a firefighter in special operations, then, you know, mutual friends

1023
01:20:20,840 --> 01:20:24,660
of ours, you know, especially closer to him, cause he worked there for so long, start dying

1024
01:20:24,660 --> 01:20:30,240
from, you know, suicide and cancer and all the things. And we attend all these funerals.

1025
01:20:30,240 --> 01:20:35,580
You know, I start my podcast, he starts walking from Key West all the way up to Tallahassee

1026
01:20:35,580 --> 01:20:41,460
and really just takes on so much secondary trauma from, you know, the brothers and sisters

1027
01:20:41,460 --> 01:20:48,120
of these firefighters, the widows, the widowers, et cetera, et cetera. And a few, what was

1028
01:20:48,120 --> 01:20:54,240
it now three months ago, I just kind of stumbled across a post and I was like, Oh, you know,

1029
01:20:54,240 --> 01:20:57,840
I haven't, I've actually had called him, but he hadn't returned my call. So I'm like, all

1030
01:20:57,840 --> 01:21:01,040
right, let me, let me dig in a little bit more. And it turns out that he had actually

1031
01:21:01,040 --> 01:21:07,360
kind of spiraled and found himself in a very, very dark place, physically, mentally, spiritually,

1032
01:21:07,360 --> 01:21:14,160
everything. I know that Ryan Parrott from Sons of the Flag, from 7X, good friend of

1033
01:21:14,160 --> 01:21:19,120
mine, had recently been connected with you. And so, and I want to say shout out to Christian

1034
01:21:19,120 --> 01:21:22,280
Myers, because I know that was the missing link that I wasn't aware of. And I just saw

1035
01:21:22,280 --> 01:21:27,760
him with these two Iwo Jima vets this last couple of days. So I want to give a shout

1036
01:21:27,760 --> 01:21:33,360
out to him. But these beautiful humans all make these connections and we're able to get

1037
01:21:33,360 --> 01:21:38,820
bull over to you. So you, you know, I know as you touched on, he's done several different

1038
01:21:38,820 --> 01:21:43,860
ceremonies now. So talk to me about the man that stood in front of you the first time

1039
01:21:43,860 --> 01:21:48,220
and through your eyes through, you know, actually from the church, what have you seen as far

1040
01:21:48,220 --> 01:21:51,520
as the journey and the metamorphosis?

1041
01:21:51,520 --> 01:21:57,640
He's been, he's been an incredible testimony for a human that, that will stop at nothing

1042
01:21:57,640 --> 01:22:05,040
to for his wellness, you know, like, and he's, he's really leaned into all of our offerings

1043
01:22:05,040 --> 01:22:10,220
and seen a lot of positive results because of it, you know, like, and, and going back,

1044
01:22:10,220 --> 01:22:16,080
you know, I remember picking him up from the airport and him mentioning to me that he had

1045
01:22:16,080 --> 01:22:20,480
mobility issues, you know, like, so, so I made sure to like be on the inside lane when

1046
01:22:20,480 --> 01:22:24,700
I picked him up and things like that. I'm helping him into the vehicle, put his bag

1047
01:22:24,700 --> 01:22:29,320
in the vehicle. And, you know, we have a Tahoe. So when he was getting into the vehicle, it

1048
01:22:29,320 --> 01:22:33,120
was really difficult for him, you know, in the state that we received him. And then we

1049
01:22:33,120 --> 01:22:37,600
brought him to the cabins. The cabins have a series of steps that you have to take to

1050
01:22:37,600 --> 01:22:43,520
get up there and, and took him probably seven minutes to get up the, up the stairs. And

1051
01:22:43,520 --> 01:22:49,760
that's not an exaggeration, you know, so, so seeing the state that he was in already,

1052
01:22:49,760 --> 01:22:54,200
I was logically trying to figure out what we needed to adjust in the ceremony space,

1053
01:22:54,200 --> 01:22:58,320
you know, like, so we made sure that his mat was closer to the restrooms in the event that

1054
01:22:58,320 --> 01:23:03,160
he needed to get up and use the restroom. We put up next to a central post so that he

1055
01:23:03,160 --> 01:23:08,160
didn't have something to, you know, grab onto things like that. We're already racing through

1056
01:23:08,160 --> 01:23:14,480
my mind, you know, but in the first ceremony, you know, and his first experience with us

1057
01:23:14,480 --> 01:23:18,760
was a private experience. You know, it was, it was something that, that we put on the

1058
01:23:18,760 --> 01:23:24,000
calendar, I think within days, you know, like you expressed that he was, he was on his last

1059
01:23:24,000 --> 01:23:28,160
leg and for us, you know, that's, that's an indicator that we need to make adjustments

1060
01:23:28,160 --> 01:23:35,600
to save a life, you know, so we ended up accommodating him, you know, in short notice. And, and so

1061
01:23:35,600 --> 01:23:41,400
he was alone with us in the ceremony for, for the weekend, or for the weekdays in this

1062
01:23:41,400 --> 01:23:48,480
case. So we got to observe every, every action in the ceremony, you know, and, and as soon

1063
01:23:48,480 --> 01:23:54,480
as his experience started, you know, a lot of it's personal, you know, but, but to generalize

1064
01:23:54,480 --> 01:23:59,280
it, I, the first indicator that, that this was going to be something that worked for

1065
01:23:59,280 --> 01:24:05,040
him is that when he needed to use the restroom, like in the middle of the ceremony, he just

1066
01:24:05,040 --> 01:24:09,720
popped up from the mat. You know, this is, he was in a laying state. He just stood straight

1067
01:24:09,720 --> 01:24:13,480
up, looked at the volunteer and said he didn't need help and walked straight to the restroom

1068
01:24:13,480 --> 01:24:17,640
and then walked straight back and then sat back on the mat. And I remember Raquel and

1069
01:24:17,640 --> 01:24:22,760
I looking at each other like, Oh my God, he, he doesn't even realize that it didn't take

1070
01:24:22,760 --> 01:24:30,280
him 10 minutes to get to the restroom. You know, so he, you know, just displayed so much

1071
01:24:30,280 --> 01:24:35,180
strength, you know, in his healing, you know, like he would, he would be going through it

1072
01:24:35,180 --> 01:24:40,040
physically and then just prop himself back up to sitting, you know, just to be present

1073
01:24:40,040 --> 01:24:45,400
with the experience. And, and, you know, for me, just seeing that level of dedication was

1074
01:24:45,400 --> 01:24:51,040
an inspiration, you know, and after, after the experience, you know, you didn't have

1075
01:24:51,040 --> 01:24:56,560
a lot of recollection, but, but what we were working off of is, is what he could acknowledge,

1076
01:24:56,560 --> 01:25:02,000
you know, like his speech has started to clear, you know, his, his motor skills were a little

1077
01:25:02,000 --> 01:25:08,360
easier, you know, his shaking, you know, started to go away and in his limbs and, and sensation

1078
01:25:08,360 --> 01:25:13,040
came back to, to his hands, things like that, you know, so it's, so we made sure just to

1079
01:25:13,040 --> 01:25:17,580
encourage him through, through his experience, like, look, it's not going to be like everybody

1080
01:25:17,580 --> 01:25:22,300
else's experience. So what you're going off of is someone else's, you know, laundry list

1081
01:25:22,300 --> 01:25:26,280
of trauma that led to their experience, you know, so if you want to replicate that, that

1082
01:25:26,280 --> 01:25:30,840
essentially means you have to suffer in the exact same way and it's still not guaranteed

1083
01:25:30,840 --> 01:25:34,920
that you're going to have that experience. Like, so just accept your experience as the

1084
01:25:34,920 --> 01:25:42,360
unique experience that you need in your life to heal, you know, and he has like, so he's,

1085
01:25:42,360 --> 01:25:46,680
he has changed tremendously, you know, and I'm saying this like to the audience, because

1086
01:25:46,680 --> 01:25:50,920
I know, you know, this already about Bull, but it's like, we were talking, you know,

1087
01:25:50,920 --> 01:25:55,560
at the beginning of the call and he's just a much more pleasant person to be around,

1088
01:25:55,560 --> 01:26:00,800
like currently, you know, like when you are fed up with life, you're not, you're not somebody

1089
01:26:00,800 --> 01:26:05,320
that people want to be around either, you know, and, and now like we, we've grown to

1090
01:26:05,320 --> 01:26:10,600
love Bull as a member of the community because he's so full of life, you know, and, and it's,

1091
01:26:10,600 --> 01:26:15,160
it's been a beautiful evolution to see his commitment through other ceremonies, you know,

1092
01:26:15,160 --> 01:26:22,920
he's come back for a group ceremony. He's brought his partner to, to ceremony too. And,

1093
01:26:22,920 --> 01:26:28,720
and really just seeing, you know, the life returned back to Tom has been a true honor,

1094
01:26:28,720 --> 01:26:34,760
you know, and, and I would love to recognize him for the work that he's done, you know,

1095
01:26:34,760 --> 01:26:40,920
he's inevitably going to inspire others, which I think, and that's what I continually communicate

1096
01:26:40,920 --> 01:26:48,120
with him is the power of his testimony, you know, is, is something that needs to be shared,

1097
01:26:48,120 --> 01:26:52,560
you know, like it's, it's something that I think will save a lot of lives in seeing somebody

1098
01:26:52,560 --> 01:26:59,000
like Bull, you know, coming to, to these ceremonies and really benefiting in his life. So, so

1099
01:26:59,000 --> 01:27:04,960
it's been a real honor to grow alongside him. He's coming back this weekend too. So we're

1100
01:27:04,960 --> 01:27:10,520
really excited to see him. I spoke to him yesterday. So, so yeah, yeah, he's, he's doing

1101
01:27:10,520 --> 01:27:11,520
really, really well.

1102
01:27:11,520 --> 01:27:17,000
Amazing. Yeah. I mean, he was definitely in crisis when I spoke to him, you know, and

1103
01:27:17,000 --> 01:27:21,440
I want to say huge shout out. I mean, there's so many people rally around him. This is why,

1104
01:27:21,440 --> 01:27:25,280
you know, people say, oh, there's no brotherhood in the fire service or sisterhood. I disagree.

1105
01:27:25,280 --> 01:27:29,400
You just looking in the wrong places. And there was a group of Orange County and I'm

1106
01:27:29,400 --> 01:27:34,760
sure some other people, firefighters that he was living on a boat and we had the hurricane

1107
01:27:34,760 --> 01:27:39,120
and it damaged his boat and they literally rebuilt the entire inside of this boat, you

1108
01:27:39,120 --> 01:27:43,240
know, reseal that got rid of mold and all kinds of things. So, I mean, so many people

1109
01:27:43,240 --> 01:27:47,080
rally around because they care. And, you know, I was just fortunate enough to be able to

1110
01:27:47,080 --> 01:27:50,960
make the connections to get him to you. I know he went to the brain health clinic as

1111
01:27:50,960 --> 01:27:54,760
well. So he's doing all the things, transcend the helping him with his, with his hormones

1112
01:27:54,760 --> 01:28:00,440
from their foundation. But when I spoke to him, when he came back, he was telling me

1113
01:28:00,440 --> 01:28:06,440
the story of the purge and the, you know, the kind of the shadow that came from, from

1114
01:28:06,440 --> 01:28:12,880
out of him and, you know, walked out of the room and he was chuckling and he goes, you

1115
01:28:12,880 --> 01:28:16,000
know, he was like, yeah, so, you know, I'm not sure if it's made a difference yet. I

1116
01:28:16,000 --> 01:28:22,560
mean, mate, you haven't fucking laughed in, you know, weeks since we started talking to

1117
01:28:22,560 --> 01:28:26,400
each other from, from finding that he was struggling even before that, you know, as

1118
01:28:26,400 --> 01:28:32,120
we've spoken to him recently, he's always frustrated with, you know, foundations and

1119
01:28:32,120 --> 01:28:36,400
being disappointed by people that were in, that aren't in anymore when it comes to support

1120
01:28:36,400 --> 01:28:41,080
and his kind of mission. But I'm like, you haven't laughed and you just chuckled like

1121
01:28:41,080 --> 01:28:45,920
multiple times in this conversation. That was after the first one, the very first one.

1122
01:28:45,920 --> 01:28:50,120
So, you know, and it's just getting better and better and better. He's getting more enthused.

1123
01:28:50,120 --> 01:28:53,280
So he's going to come on the show. We're going to do another one with, I think once he's

1124
01:28:53,280 --> 01:28:57,600
done with all, all the treatments so that, you know, everything is, it's kind of topped

1125
01:28:57,600 --> 01:29:01,520
up. I'm going to spring him back here and we'll sit down and do a second interview so

1126
01:29:01,520 --> 01:29:05,520
we can tell this whole story. And he can obviously dive into a little bit more of his experiences.

1127
01:29:05,520 --> 01:29:15,360
That being said, you also have the Agape Foundation, the, I'm sorry, the Agape Heroes, Agape Heroes.

1128
01:29:15,360 --> 01:29:21,920
Through a podcast that I was on, Kelsey Sheeran, which is the Brass in Unity podcast, she mentioned

1129
01:29:21,920 --> 01:29:26,520
a firefighter that reached out to her that she'd tried to help before. Hudos to this

1130
01:29:26,520 --> 01:29:31,120
guy. I'll keep him anonymous. But he had tried a multitude of things before. Like he was

1131
01:29:31,120 --> 01:29:36,040
really trying to get help. Had a tragedy as his mother was murdered and it just sent him

1132
01:29:36,040 --> 01:29:43,880
back down a spiral. After, you know, I'd seen how well Bull had done. He was connected with

1133
01:29:43,880 --> 01:29:47,480
me and I'm like, well, it's funny, you know, the timing is perfect because it was Ayahuasca

1134
01:29:47,480 --> 01:29:53,320
that he was looking into, the plant medicine route. And we were able to connect him to

1135
01:29:53,320 --> 01:29:58,320
you. And it was through the Agape Heroes Foundation that you brought him in, in the group setting.

1136
01:29:58,320 --> 01:30:02,680
So talk to me, you don't have to name the name, but talk to me about that group setting

1137
01:30:02,680 --> 01:30:08,280
and another firefighter life saved. Because I know it was two days of him, you know, not

1138
01:30:08,280 --> 01:30:10,760
buying in and a third day was a revelation.

1139
01:30:10,760 --> 01:30:18,800
Right, exactly. Yeah. And so Agape Heroes Foundation is a nonprofit that offers a specialized

1140
01:30:18,800 --> 01:30:24,320
container for veterans and first responders to commune with Ayahuasca and other plant

1141
01:30:24,320 --> 01:30:30,640
medicines, but in this case, Ayahuasca. So it had lined up beautifully for him because

1142
01:30:30,640 --> 01:30:38,240
he had entered into rehabilitation and was getting out the week of our next Agape Heroes

1143
01:30:38,240 --> 01:30:46,760
retreat. So I got the call from rehab, you know, the first contact that we had and he

1144
01:30:46,760 --> 01:30:50,920
was like, hey, I should be clean, you know, and there are no substances, there is no alcohol

1145
01:30:50,920 --> 01:30:56,120
and they're pretty much feeding me like the diet restrictions that are required to attend

1146
01:30:56,120 --> 01:31:01,480
your ceremony. So if you'll have me, you know, I'd be more than willing. So we ended up giving

1147
01:31:01,480 --> 01:31:07,560
him a scholarship to join us considering, you know, and that's inevitably what Agape

1148
01:31:07,560 --> 01:31:14,720
Heroes Foundation does is for one, we offer these ceremonies already at an incredibly

1149
01:31:14,720 --> 01:31:21,480
affordable rate considering what the going rate is, you know, across the country and

1150
01:31:21,480 --> 01:31:27,560
in other countries, we are by far offering more value in that way because we have, you

1151
01:31:27,560 --> 01:31:32,680
know, individuals that are donating towards the benefit of veterans and first responders.

1152
01:31:32,680 --> 01:31:39,680
We have corporations too that are helping us. So it allows us to offer in a way that

1153
01:31:39,680 --> 01:31:47,360
is more accessible to many, you know, so we have a baseline and Agape Heroes also has

1154
01:31:47,360 --> 01:31:53,760
a scholarship program that will cover up to 80% of that cost. And the reason, you know,

1155
01:31:53,760 --> 01:31:58,960
we rarely pay in full is because that energy exchange we have found needs to be there in

1156
01:31:58,960 --> 01:32:05,920
order for somebody to add value to the experience. You know, when I established Agape Heroes

1157
01:32:05,920 --> 01:32:12,080
two years ago, we offered 15 veterans for free, you know, and none of those veterans

1158
01:32:12,080 --> 01:32:15,680
have come back, you know, like they came, they had their experience, but they don't

1159
01:32:15,680 --> 01:32:23,560
feel like it was something of value, you know, so we still maintain contact, but there is

1160
01:32:23,560 --> 01:32:29,600
a difference in investing in yourself, you know, in that way. So we've decided, you know,

1161
01:32:29,600 --> 01:32:35,840
covering 80% of a scholarship still, you know, you need to put some elbow grease into

1162
01:32:35,840 --> 01:32:44,480
what it is that you're looking to receive. So he came for one of those offerings, you

1163
01:32:44,480 --> 01:32:50,200
know, and it was a small group. I think we had close to 10 people and in these cases,

1164
01:32:50,200 --> 01:32:56,520
regardless, you know, the retreats are limited to 15 participants so that the integration

1165
01:32:56,520 --> 01:33:03,760
is more focused, you know, and we just find it more beneficial for veterans to have, you

1166
01:33:03,760 --> 01:33:09,600
know, not only a conversation, you know, that is going to be relatable to veterans and first

1167
01:33:09,600 --> 01:33:13,240
responders, there's a lot of things you don't have to stop and explain, you know, with those

1168
01:33:13,240 --> 01:33:18,880
experiences, which is why we created that opportunity to begin with, but it's also you

1169
01:33:18,880 --> 01:33:24,000
feel seen, you know, like in your healing process, like in a smaller container like

1170
01:33:24,000 --> 01:33:31,840
that. So he's also one that was like showed up with a lot of expectations, even though

1171
01:33:31,840 --> 01:33:37,800
he said he didn't do a lot of research, you know, he seemed to know what he was supposed

1172
01:33:37,800 --> 01:33:44,040
to expect, you know, and it was interesting too, because he coming from rehab, he had

1173
01:33:44,040 --> 01:33:48,320
had conversations with people about coming to drink ayahuasca and the majority of the

1174
01:33:48,320 --> 01:33:51,920
people in rehab were telling them you're going to trip out, you know, like this is going

1175
01:33:51,920 --> 01:33:58,040
to be a psychedelic experience for you. So those seeds were planted in him. So, you know,

1176
01:33:58,040 --> 01:34:01,040
that was not something he was looking forward to. He was looking forward to the healing

1177
01:34:01,040 --> 01:34:07,680
part of it, you know. So his first two experiences, he got very little, you know, other than presence,

1178
01:34:07,680 --> 01:34:12,920
like he was just very present in the space and, and the first night he decided to say,

1179
01:34:12,920 --> 01:34:17,820
you know, that it went beautifully, like, so then the second daytime ceremony, he comes

1180
01:34:17,820 --> 01:34:23,560
out saying the same thing. So I, I kind of keyed in like to he's not, he's not really

1181
01:34:23,560 --> 01:34:30,000
sharing, you know, what his experience was. So I made mention of like, look, while you're

1182
01:34:30,000 --> 01:34:34,800
with me is the only time that I can help guide you through this experience, you know, like,

1183
01:34:34,800 --> 01:34:38,800
so don't think that you're going to have a better conversation with me than you are,

1184
01:34:38,800 --> 01:34:43,360
are afforded in this moment when we are sharing space together, you know, and I always use

1185
01:34:43,360 --> 01:34:49,840
this analogy of a dance, you know, people buy tickets to, to attend a dance, right.

1186
01:34:49,840 --> 01:34:55,320
And the doors open at eight o'clock, but everybody takes a table or a seat, not the dance floor

1187
01:34:55,320 --> 01:35:00,200
that they paid to enjoy, you know, not until this brave person decides to take his wife

1188
01:35:00,200 --> 01:35:05,160
up and dance to their favorite song and get permission to the rest of the dance floor

1189
01:35:05,160 --> 01:35:09,920
that y'all can do what it is that y'all came to do, you know, like, so what I, what the

1190
01:35:09,920 --> 01:35:13,560
invitation is in the integration is like, just come and dance with me, you know, like

1191
01:35:13,560 --> 01:35:20,400
I'm, I start, you know, I always start by sharing my experience and, and then, you know,

1192
01:35:20,400 --> 01:35:26,240
set the tone for everybody else, you know, and, and so when I, when I, you know, basically

1193
01:35:26,240 --> 01:35:30,600
explained that to him in the integration, the following morning, he came out with the

1194
01:35:30,600 --> 01:35:35,120
truth and he's like, you know, I really don't feel like I'm connecting and he felt hopeless

1195
01:35:35,120 --> 01:35:38,520
like that, that the medicine wasn't going to be working for him.

1196
01:35:38,520 --> 01:35:42,960
So with that knowledge, you know, like the understanding the truth, you know, we changed

1197
01:35:42,960 --> 01:35:50,320
the prayer, we changed the intention, you know, to fit the, his needs and, and ensure

1198
01:35:50,320 --> 01:35:51,680
that he's going to be connecting.

1199
01:35:51,680 --> 01:35:53,720
It was the last opportunity.

1200
01:35:53,720 --> 01:36:01,080
So, so he did, you know, and it was beautiful and beautiful to witness, you know, like for

1201
01:36:01,080 --> 01:36:05,120
one, we already kind of are able to gauge whether or not somebody is connecting with

1202
01:36:05,120 --> 01:36:09,920
the medicine, but that's part of the, of the relationship with the plant medicine too,

1203
01:36:09,920 --> 01:36:13,840
is understanding to trust it, you know, a majority of the reason that happens for people

1204
01:36:13,840 --> 01:36:18,160
is because they're resistive, you know, to, to the process, you know, they don't want

1205
01:36:18,160 --> 01:36:20,560
to believe that it's going to help them.

1206
01:36:20,560 --> 01:36:26,800
So, so yeah, in seeing him actually connect and, and really liberate himself from, from

1207
01:36:26,800 --> 01:36:32,000
a lot in, in such a short amount of time, you know, on the last day, it was beautiful

1208
01:36:32,000 --> 01:36:34,960
and he gave an amazing testimony afterwards.

1209
01:36:34,960 --> 01:36:37,680
You know, he, I've talked to him recently too.

1210
01:36:37,680 --> 01:36:38,920
I talked to him last week.

1211
01:36:38,920 --> 01:36:40,520
He's still doing really well.

1212
01:36:40,520 --> 01:36:46,400
So, so yeah, it was, it was a true blessing to have him join us and, and witness that

1213
01:36:46,400 --> 01:36:51,680
evolution right at the finish line, you know, so it's, it was really interesting.

1214
01:36:51,680 --> 01:36:52,840
I forgot about that.

1215
01:36:52,840 --> 01:36:54,840
So he did put it out so we can say his name Tanner.

1216
01:36:54,840 --> 01:36:56,800
Don't need to say the last name, but yeah, he did.

1217
01:36:56,800 --> 01:36:57,800
He did.

1218
01:36:57,800 --> 01:36:58,800
I forgot about it.

1219
01:36:58,800 --> 01:37:03,680
I was being, being careful when I spoke to him, having tried so many things, and this

1220
01:37:03,680 --> 01:37:07,800
is what I think creates despair in responders and he'd even tried ketamine.

1221
01:37:07,800 --> 01:37:09,880
And I asked him like, you know, tell me about that experience.

1222
01:37:09,880 --> 01:37:12,760
Oh, well they, you know, I said, was, was someone there guiding you?

1223
01:37:12,760 --> 01:37:15,040
Oh, no, no, they just put in the IV and then they walked out.

1224
01:37:15,040 --> 01:37:17,480
And I'm like, well, therein lies the problem.

1225
01:37:17,480 --> 01:37:22,040
You know, someone opened the door and no one allowed you to start unpacking what was in

1226
01:37:22,040 --> 01:37:23,040
there.

1227
01:37:23,040 --> 01:37:24,840
You just left to your own devices.

1228
01:37:24,840 --> 01:37:29,360
But I remember, so he's literally, you know, suicidal at the point where I'm talking to

1229
01:37:29,360 --> 01:37:33,240
him, not, you know, actually about to do it there and then, but I mean, definitely suicide

1230
01:37:33,240 --> 01:37:36,160
ideation strong.

1231
01:37:36,160 --> 01:37:39,960
And he, the other side, when I talked to him, he said, you know, yeah, the first two days,

1232
01:37:39,960 --> 01:37:41,760
I didn't really feel anything.

1233
01:37:41,760 --> 01:37:48,540
And he said, and I paraphrase that James, that third day was the most powerful experience

1234
01:37:48,540 --> 01:37:50,120
of my entire life.

1235
01:37:50,120 --> 01:37:53,840
And that includes the birth of my children and being hired as a firefighter.

1236
01:37:53,840 --> 01:37:57,300
And obviously he adores his children, but that was, he was trying to illustrate the

1237
01:37:57,300 --> 01:38:01,120
magnitude of the experience that he had on day three.

1238
01:38:01,120 --> 01:38:08,220
So to go from, you know, probably going to kill himself to a complete rebirth after three

1239
01:38:08,220 --> 01:38:12,400
days of ayahuasca to me, I mean, that's a huge testament to it.

1240
01:38:12,400 --> 01:38:13,800
No, of course.

1241
01:38:13,800 --> 01:38:20,360
And that's honestly what we're set out, you know, in an ideal situation, you know, there,

1242
01:38:20,360 --> 01:38:23,880
there will come a point where no one needs medicine anymore, you know, like, because

1243
01:38:23,880 --> 01:38:25,640
the job is being done, right?

1244
01:38:25,640 --> 01:38:28,440
Like, and that's, that's an ideal world.

1245
01:38:28,440 --> 01:38:30,400
Like we're like, so it's seeing Tanner.

1246
01:38:30,400 --> 01:38:34,120
I don't know if we'll ever see Tanner back, you know, because of his success story.

1247
01:38:34,120 --> 01:38:39,220
And that fills my heart, you know, like that's ultimately the testimonies that I would love

1248
01:38:39,220 --> 01:38:44,920
to share with everyone, you know, is that this is, this is a one, a one lifetime experience

1249
01:38:44,920 --> 01:38:50,160
to change the rest of your life, you know, and, and it's unfortunately, you know, not

1250
01:38:50,160 --> 01:38:53,680
the case for everyone, you know, and it can't be the case for everyone.

1251
01:38:53,680 --> 01:38:58,980
You know, life has to teach us lessons in order for us to grow, you know, so, so it

1252
01:38:58,980 --> 01:39:04,960
ends up being, you know, a part of the, the perfect design of, of a human experience,

1253
01:39:04,960 --> 01:39:10,080
you know, having these, these goods so that, or these, these bads happen in a way that

1254
01:39:10,080 --> 01:39:14,720
will allow us to appreciate the good times, you know, like, so it, there, there has to

1255
01:39:14,720 --> 01:39:16,280
be an ebb and flow in life.

1256
01:39:16,280 --> 01:39:23,080
Like, so, but it was, it was such a beautiful, you know, thing to witness, you know, in,

1257
01:39:23,080 --> 01:39:29,080
in another human being is just an absolute liberation in the way that, that, you know,

1258
01:39:29,080 --> 01:39:30,320
that Tanner was afforded.

1259
01:39:30,320 --> 01:39:34,000
So yeah, he's doing, he's doing really, really well too.

1260
01:39:34,000 --> 01:39:37,180
Well, I'm sure people listening are probably intrigued.

1261
01:39:37,180 --> 01:39:43,000
So let's talk about where people can find the church and the, the Agape Warriors program

1262
01:39:43,000 --> 01:39:46,720
so that hopefully some, you know, this is reaching some people that maybe that will

1263
01:39:46,720 --> 01:39:49,080
send them down their path of healing as well.

1264
01:39:49,080 --> 01:39:54,360
Yeah, of course, so, so Agape Church for the Soul, Mind and Body is, is the name of our

1265
01:39:54,360 --> 01:39:55,360
church.

1266
01:39:55,360 --> 01:39:56,920
We're located in Conroe, Texas.

1267
01:39:56,920 --> 01:40:03,440
Permanently, we have a retreat center here on 25 acres that, that has 11 different buildings

1268
01:40:03,440 --> 01:40:04,440
on it.

1269
01:40:04,440 --> 01:40:06,800
So it's an established offering.

1270
01:40:06,800 --> 01:40:12,400
We have specialized programs, not only for veterans and first responders in the Agape

1271
01:40:12,400 --> 01:40:18,600
Heroes Foundation, but we also have Amethyst Hearts, which is a women's foundation.

1272
01:40:18,600 --> 01:40:23,660
It offers in the exact same way, other than for women who have experienced domestic violence

1273
01:40:23,660 --> 01:40:25,500
and sexual abuse.

1274
01:40:25,500 --> 01:40:30,800
So rather than offering a container for, for veterans and first responders, this is an

1275
01:40:30,800 --> 01:40:33,840
opportunity for women to commune together.

1276
01:40:33,840 --> 01:40:40,220
And you know, oftentimes in, you know, healing with the absence of the masculine energy.

1277
01:40:40,220 --> 01:40:44,120
So those are two programs that, that we offer.

1278
01:40:44,120 --> 01:40:50,160
And those two programs specifically are offered because those are our, our labors of love.

1279
01:40:50,160 --> 01:40:55,380
You know, that's, that's our way of thanking these plant medicines for, for the liberation

1280
01:40:55,380 --> 01:40:56,380
that we received.

1281
01:40:56,380 --> 01:41:01,400
You know, it was PTSD that brought me to the medicine, you know, so, and I know that I'm

1282
01:41:01,400 --> 01:41:03,680
not alone in that, in that experience.

1283
01:41:03,680 --> 01:41:10,200
So it's, so this is me thanking, you know, this, the experience in specializing, you

1284
01:41:10,200 --> 01:41:16,440
know, and making available, you know, this, this experience to, to veterans and first

1285
01:41:16,440 --> 01:41:17,880
responders.

1286
01:41:17,880 --> 01:41:22,760
And the same for, for my wife, Raquel, in offering Amethyst Hearts.

1287
01:41:22,760 --> 01:41:28,000
You know, she's a survivor of sexual assault and domestic violence, you know, so, so this

1288
01:41:28,000 --> 01:41:34,480
is her labor of love and in making this more accessible to, to women who have suffered

1289
01:41:34,480 --> 01:41:35,680
in the same way.

1290
01:41:35,680 --> 01:41:36,680
Yep.

1291
01:41:36,680 --> 01:41:43,280
We have retreats almost every weekend of the month, different retreats, you know, we offer

1292
01:41:43,280 --> 01:41:45,560
ayahuasca retreats ourselves.

1293
01:41:45,560 --> 01:41:51,800
We also work with very reputable facilitators of plant medicine that all have been trained

1294
01:41:51,800 --> 01:41:58,720
traditionally in, in different, in different capacities, you know, like we also open ourselves

1295
01:41:58,720 --> 01:42:02,300
to other teachings through different cultures in that way.

1296
01:42:02,300 --> 01:42:07,720
So it really enriches the community in a way that we couldn't do on our own, you know,

1297
01:42:07,720 --> 01:42:13,720
so I would encourage people, we have a website for both organizations, Agapa Church's website

1298
01:42:13,720 --> 01:42:23,000
is agapa for the number four smv.com and then agapaheroes.org is, is available to you to

1299
01:42:23,000 --> 01:42:25,520
peruse and get more information.

1300
01:42:25,520 --> 01:42:28,600
We're also on social media, you know, limited.

1301
01:42:28,600 --> 01:42:33,880
We don't, we don't, you know, put our, our neck out, you know, but in either case, if

1302
01:42:33,880 --> 01:42:40,840
you're interested in, in direct messaging us on Instagram or Facebook or Tik Tok, even

1303
01:42:40,840 --> 01:42:42,280
we do have a presence there.

1304
01:42:42,280 --> 01:42:45,040
So yeah, we're looking to grow.

1305
01:42:45,040 --> 01:42:50,120
We're accepting new members and, and we're always, you know, interested in helping people.

1306
01:42:50,120 --> 01:42:54,960
So if, if any of this, you know, resonated with you, I'd be more than happy to further

1307
01:42:54,960 --> 01:42:57,480
answer your specific questions.

1308
01:42:57,480 --> 01:43:00,160
Well, Sergio, I want to say thank you.

1309
01:43:00,160 --> 01:43:06,960
Like I said, there are two firefighters living much better lives now than, you know, the,

1310
01:43:06,960 --> 01:43:11,420
the two men in crisis that could well have not been here anymore because of what you

1311
01:43:11,420 --> 01:43:12,420
have done.

1312
01:43:12,420 --> 01:43:15,040
And obviously the people around them that have surrounded them up to that point as well,

1313
01:43:15,040 --> 01:43:17,440
but you brought the solution to the problem.

1314
01:43:17,440 --> 01:43:18,440
That was the thing.

1315
01:43:18,440 --> 01:43:19,960
And I talk about this a lot.

1316
01:43:19,960 --> 01:43:26,680
There's such a, a beautifully diverse toolbox now for men, women, and children who are struggling

1317
01:43:26,680 --> 01:43:32,480
and it might be equine therapy or diving or surfing or meditation or new calm or, you

1318
01:43:32,480 --> 01:43:37,800
know, ayahuasca or cambo, but everyone has their unique cocktail of what, what's going

1319
01:43:37,800 --> 01:43:38,800
to work.

1320
01:43:38,800 --> 01:43:43,400
And for this to be put, especially in the first responder community, we hear a lot about,

1321
01:43:43,400 --> 01:43:45,160
you know, veterans exploring treatment solutions.

1322
01:43:45,160 --> 01:43:48,960
I have Marcus on the show and a lot of the seal community that have gone down there and

1323
01:43:48,960 --> 01:43:52,100
done iboga, ibogaine.

1324
01:43:52,100 --> 01:43:55,960
But for my community, there really isn't much discussion at all.

1325
01:43:55,960 --> 01:44:01,240
So to not only be able to recommend somewhere, but also have testimony from people that I

1326
01:44:01,240 --> 01:44:06,000
know personally now, I think it's so, so powerful and so important.

1327
01:44:06,000 --> 01:44:12,760
So I want to thank you firstly for, you know, starting the church, taking this on after

1328
01:44:12,760 --> 01:44:17,720
your experiences, you and your wife, but secondly, for being so generous and coming on the behind

1329
01:44:17,720 --> 01:44:19,160
the shield podcast today.

1330
01:44:19,160 --> 01:44:24,120
No, it's been an absolute pleasure having a conversation with you as always.

1331
01:44:24,120 --> 01:44:29,320
And we really appreciate your audience, you know, for, for affording us an opportunity

1332
01:44:29,320 --> 01:44:54,520
to share our message and our mission.