This episode is sponsored by NuCalm.
And as many of you know, I only bring sponsors onto this show
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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing,
and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show Air Force veteran and co-founder of Agape, Sergio Saenz.
Now, what makes this episode so incredibly powerful is that a few weeks ago,
Sergio and his wife Raquel put one of my friends, Tom Bull Hill, through a series of plant medicine journeys.
Now, at that moment, Tom was in absolute crisis both physically and emotionally,
and his ayahuasca experience and then ceremonies following that truly saved his life.
On top of that, I was connected with another firefighter that we also sent to the same place,
and he himself had an absolutely life altering experience and is doing incredibly well since his own suicide ideation.
So in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from Sergio's early life,
his journey into the military, his transition, how plant medicine helped his own mental health,
the Agape Heroes program, cambo, and so much more.
Now, before we get to this incredibly important conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment,
go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.
Every single five-star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for others to find,
and this is a free library of well over 850 episodes now.
So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories,
so I can get them to every single person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you, Sergio Sands. Enjoy.
Well, Sergio, there is a huge backstory behind why you and I are talking today,
but before we dive into that incredible journey that some of our mutual friends have been on,
I want to start by welcoming you to the Behind the Shield podcast today.
Thank you very much, James. It's an honor to be here.
So where on planet Earth are we finding you this afternoon?
Currently, I'm in Conroe, Texas, which is just north of Houston.
We have a 25-acre property here in the middle of the woods, so it's nice and peaceful.
Hopefully, the internet stays up because we're using satellite.
There's an app that you can use for interviewing on podcasts, and it does each one remotely.
A lot of people use it. The amount of hours that I record each week,
I think it was like $40 a month for a regular podcaster.
When I asked them for a quote with the amount of hours I record, it was $450 a month.
So I was like, well, that's not going to work, is it?
So I'm stuck with the internet at the moment until they figure that out.
But anyway, so I'd love to start at the very beginning of your journey first.
So let's learn where you were born and tell me a little about your family dynamic,
what your parents did, how many siblings.
Yeah, of course. So I was born in South Texas in a small town called Premont,
graduating class of 69, just to put it in perspective.
We had one red light and it's kind of a rural town.
So I grew up around raising cattle and working on a ranch.
We had a 10-acre ranch just outside of Premont.
Born in McAllen, Texas. Let's see.
I was in and around that area throughout my schooling.
I went to school in Corpus Christi and Benvolt, kind of just following
the best educational system that was available.
My parents kind of just made sure that I was where the education was offered best
in my upbringing so that exposed me to a lot of different cultures,
a lot of different varying popularities, if you will, at different schools.
So it was a beautiful upbringing.
My parents were owners of an insurance agency.
They had established from the ground up on their own.
And yeah, very successful. I grew up pretty privileged,
which comes with its own problems.
But in either case, very grateful for my upbringing.
Now, I myself am first-generation immigrant.
How far back does your family's immigration go?
It's multiple generations, probably around six to eight, I would imagine.
We had an uncle that signed the Texas Declaration of Independence.
So our family has been well established here.
So it depends. I think on my mother's side would be probably six to eight generations.
But my father's side has been here for a really long time.
Now, with all those generations, when you go back,
was there any relationship to the plant medicine ceremonies,
the tribal element that we're going to be discussing today?
Not much. I know that I've had uncles that are curious.
And then growing up on a cattle ranch, there's always one of us
that decides to start eating the mushrooms that grow out of that environment.
Yeah, exactly.
But traditionally speaking, I think about four generations back,
we had some activity in our family with the Native American Church,
as well as there in Mexico.
So I've never been too far away from it.
I know that in my educational process of preparing for offering these types of ceremonies,
I started recognizing a lot of what my grandparents did as remedies,
as being a part of curanderismo, which is the healing practices
that are associated with the Latin American tradition.
So it was nice to see that those modalities for healing were being passed along,
regardless of how extremely Catholic our upbringing was.
What have you seen, especially maybe with discussions of some of the real elders
that you've worked with through this journey,
of what would seemingly be a complete 360,
from ancient plant medicine being completely normalized back then,
as was acupuncture and many, many of these other holistic healing elements,
to the pharmaceuticals and modern medicine,
and then now this kind of refinding, actually having some humility
and listening to our ancestors and refinding some of these plant medicines
and holistic practices that seem to be incredibly powerful?
I think the most notable thing in the conversations I've had
is the difference in the approach to healing.
A lot of what plant medicines offer are a little bit of struggle now,
so that you are no longer struggling for the rest of your life.
So pharmaceuticals are treating symptoms,
and they're basically just shelving our symptoms,
and then eventually they manifest themselves into greater diseases
or greater pain, greater suffering.
So we're basically putting the suffering aside for later in our later years,
when we're no longer strong enough to deal with these ailments with pharmaceuticals,
whereas plant medicines seem to be addressing the issues
that are manifesting these problems within us.
So it's a struggle a little bit now, a struggle with me for a weekend,
and get past a lot of the limitations that you have,
or you take a pill that comes with its own list of symptoms.
That's what puzzles me about the pharmaceuticals
that are supposed to prevent you from committing suicide,
saying this could potentially cause you to commit suicide.
So it's a really interesting dynamic.
So having a bandaid and says a little warning on the side
may cause profuse bleeding.
Right, exactly.
We're going way ahead, but just while we're on this tangent,
there's the book The Body Keeps the Score,
and there's obviously a very strong correlation between trauma
and the way it's manifested in the body, the gut-brain connection,
all these things.
With the holistic plant medicine, the traditional plant medicine lens,
what is the philosophy of treating physical ailments
and focusing on possibly trauma being the nucleus of them?
I think it's centered around that, to be perfectly honest.
A lot of it seems to be centered around our childhood
and generational traumas.
I'm familiar with the book too.
I've read it before, about three years ago,
and I just got the audiobook with one of my Audible credits,
so I'm excited to see it through a clearer lens right now.
But it's important to be trauma-informed, for one, in this space.
I say this space in particular to offering these ceremonies
in the United States, because a lot of the traumas
that we have experienced here in the Western world
are not relatable to the tribes in South America
who are living a much simpler life,
that are raised around these practices and these rituals.
So being trauma-informed is very important through this work.
But it seems to me, in observing a thousand people healing
with these plant medicines at this point,
that a majority of what people are dealing with
are compartmentalization from childhood or any life trauma,
any post-traumatic stress in a multitude of ways.
That seems to be a reference to war nowadays,
but it's prevalent in many different ways.
A car accident being screamed at and things like that
are manifesting themselves into social issues that cause anxiety,
that cause stress, that eventually manifest themselves
as disease in the body.
I had a gentleman on who is the CEO of Nucom, N-U-C-A-L-M,
and it's an amazing app now.
It used to be a massive machine that was in super high performers,
NASA, Navy SEALs.
He said the same thing.
This is obviously an audible neuro-linguistic element
that stimulates your brain to down-regulate your nervous system.
But his whole principle was the same.
He said disease is caused by stress, cancer.
You name it, it's stress.
So with the tools that you're bringing and the tools that that app has
and all these other holistic elements,
like cold plunges, all these things, it's amazing how, as you said,
that's proactive, that's getting back to the root of it.
If we can be out of stress, we're far less likely to develop some of these things,
heart issues and cancer, etc., autoimmune disease.
But yet you just don't hear that.
As you said, we get bombarded with drug commercials,
and there are some incredible drugs out there that I use as a paramedic,
that surgeons use, that are phenomenal.
But how many of them, I would argue even chemotherapy, have actually taken more lives than they supposedly save?
No, I would agree, absolutely.
And again, it just comes back to, for me, where I stand is,
or where my lens is pointed currently in plant medicines and entheogenic church offerings, things of that nature.
It's also perplexing to me that we're waiting for permission
from the people who are poisoning us in the first place with these so-called medicines.
And I forget who famously says it, but they put it in terms, and I'll butcher this of course,
but they call our medicines drugs and their drugs medicines, and back and forth.
So it's a really interesting way to look at things.
Like why is it that we can take a known good thing,
something that is helping a multitude of people,
and say, well, we don't want to help them just yet until we've pumped all of this research into proving
that people's testimonies are true, basically.
So it's just interesting.
The times that we're in right now, I feel like these are the safest, affordable opportunities for people to heal.
And we're shelving it until Big Pharma comes up with a plan to offer these things in the clinical setting.
I love that phrase, don't wait for science to prove what you already know is true.
And you can apply that.
I mean, even recently trying to get people to understand that the way that we work our fire fires,
which is 56 hours a week plus overtime a lot of times,
is far more detrimental than a 42 hour work week, which would be basically like a civilian style work week.
And people are like, oh, yeah, have you got the data to show that?
I'm like, when do we lose our common sense where we can't even think of anything without needing studies?
You see these people, oh, we've just shown that meditation works.
Well, it's been used for thousands of years, meditation, prayer, whatever you want to call it.
We know it works. And it's the same with this.
It's so maddening because this has got a millennia longitudinal study of all these cultures that have used it successfully for years and years and years and years,
whether it's Poyote or Ayahuasca, whatever the ceremony is, we've got hundreds of years of proof.
Otherwise, they wouldn't do it anymore. It'll be dead.
So this is what's so maddening. We know that the efficacy of these drugs is not good.
We know, as you touched on, the side effects can be horrendous, which then requires more drugs and more drugs and more drugs.
And yet CBD and the psilocybin and all these other mushrooms and plant medicines, Ebola, et cetera, et cetera, they're held up.
And people still have to, people that have served this country still have to go over the border sometimes to get the very healing they need for their service for the U.S.
It's pure insanity.
No, I agree wholeheartedly. I agree.
Yeah, but honestly, too, once we once we just lean in and support the thing that we know to be true, then then everything will follow suit thereafter.
You know, it seems to me like the fear that is being instilled, for instance, in the legality of these substances, you know, for one, we already have the data to show that there are medical benefits to using these plants, but it's still a schedule one,
which means there are no medical uses for for these medicines.
So, so to me, it sounds a lot more like a strategy than than a logical decision.
You know, so so I understand that there's a huge system in place right now that that would detriment be a detriment to these plant medicines becoming more available to people.
But what are we really trying to do here?
Are we trying to help people or are we trying to to help a corporate, you know, entity?
Like, so in this in this case, you know, I take a lot of risk in what it is that I offer, but I do it because I know that it's the best thing that I can possibly do for people rather than, you know, wait around for and for people to to give me an OK.
You know, it's it's similar. It came up in my mind.
Like, at what point did we not ask for data to start walking on two legs?
You know, like it's it's one of those things that's just logically the next step, you know.
And so and so for me, it's just a more efficient way to to get people, you know, to liberate themselves, to really enjoy life for for what it's worth and and put these things aside that we've carried with us for for way too long.
Well, we'll get into it a little bit, but two of my firefighter friends, one close friend and another one that I met through this relationship.
Are here today because of your medicine and they had tried the traditional pharmaceutical talk therapy route, and both of them were at the absolute end of their rope.
And that's not an analogy. So, you know, I can attest just, you know, just from the two that have gone to you that I know personally, I want to get to your kind of journey before we get to that, though.
So you talked about, you know, where you grew up. What about athletics and sport? What were you playing when you were in school age?
So being in a small town, if you're good at one thing, you have to be good at everything, you know.
So I was literally involved in everything. I played football, basketball, baseball, soccer.
I was also in one act play, speech and debate, you know.
So it was I was well rounded in that sense and very involved in the community.
You know, again, I grew up in the Catholic Church, so I was in catechism, eventually became a catechist in my adult years, you know, like so.
I've always, you know, centered my focus around community, if you will.
And just because that was instilled in me at such an early age, you know, until I was in seventh grade, I had the same best friends my entire life, you know, until I was moved to a different school and had to find new best friends.
But I never lost those relationships, you know.
So for me, having that tribe has always been a part of my life experience.
But the people that come on the show that have been in a smaller community, I grew up on a farm on the edge of a town.
I wasn't, I mean, if I'm being completely honest, I wasn't really that entrenched in that town.
I didn't feel like I had a community there so much because I was on this farm and I went to school in a different city as well.
But now where I live, this community I live in now, there's four, actually five subdivisions around this communal place.
There's, you know, a football field and some basketball courts and a pool and everything.
And so all the kids do go out and ride their bikes and play and come in when the lights come on.
And so it makes me realize that this is kind of what we're missing, especially in the suburban and urban settings is that communal element.
You've obviously been all over the world since you grew up.
What were the pros and cons, if any, of that small town community that you grew up around?
brings me into why I joined the Air Force, you know, is I was very privileged.
You know, my parents were successful in this small town and basically I got away with a lot of things I shouldn't have.
So once I entered into college and I was responsible for my own actions and nobody knew who I was, I started feeling this sense of like, you are not prepared for this situation.
You know, so in that moment, I decided to join the military. I was like, well, if I'm going to need to restructure myself, this seems to be the best way to do that.
You know, to completely strip the name away from my life experience and just throw myself into finding myself through my military experience.
So it was never a limiter, you know, like because again, I was privileged in the sense that no matter where I went, people knew who I was and who my parents were, you know, so it came with its benefits.
But those benefits didn't translate into adulthood, you know, like where I was never seeking to stay in this small town.
You know, I always had bigger dreams for myself and as soon as I recognized that those dreams would not be fulfilled because I was so sheltered, you know, in that small town, I decided to make a change.
So you entered the Air Force just before that though, was there anything you were dreaming of becoming while you were at the school age before you made that transition?
You know, looking back, I was probably going to be a lawyer, you know, like that's that was what I was set up to be, you know, and all of my education, things like that were pointed at that.
And then I was really good at speech and debate, you know, qualifying for state multiple years, you know, so that just seemed to be a big part of my career.
You know, and so it was either that or inevitably taking on the family business, you know, running the insurance agency.
So, you know, as a teenager, the last thing you want to do is work with your parents, you know, so shoving that aside, I eventually did, you know, I eventually became an insurance agent when I got out of the Air Force.
But but yeah, I was I was on the path to becoming a lawyer. And and that's thankfully not the path that I ended up.
When you look back now with this mature lens, were there any elements of your upbringing that you consider compounding trauma?
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. You know, for one, growing up on on a ranch is a lot of work.
And we're working with with, you know, animals that that are humongous, you know, like there's there's a lot of a lot of risk, a lot of threat of injury, things like that.
So so on the physical side, that was an issue.
The small town I was in substance abuse was was really common.
You know, it was it was a part of life, you know, so so it was a part of life.
And you know, there was a lot there was a lot there. And, you know, thankfully, I always had support, things like that.
But but nonetheless, those those wounds were evident, you know, and in my character and in my character, I was a victim of substance abuse.
And so I was a victim of substance abuse.
You know, I had a lot of support, things like that. But but nonetheless, those those wounds were were evident, you know, and in my character and in my ability to to, you know, trust people, things like that.
So so, yeah, I had I had several and then near near death experiences, you know, like as a result of, you know, one time I fell into a trailer with the bull and barely made it out.
absolutely affected my life.
When I started this podcast, the first handful of episodes were a little bit more superficial.
And then as time went on and people kind of enlightened me on the impact of early life
and some of these other areas, I just kind of opened the door a little wider for people
when we're having this early life conversation and was blown away by how many men especially
suffered sexual abuse when they were children.
And yet you'd look at these men and obviously this is the same with women, but I mean the
men of, you know, we don't talk about male sexual abuse usually.
And if we do it some pedophile that comes to prominence and we talk about it and then
we tuck it away again.
But these are SAS, Navy SEALs, firefighters, SWAT officers, I mean you name it, you know,
what one would call a quote unquote manly man.
And you know, I was just, I was, I was amazed.
So there's so many people that are suffering.
That's just one element.
That's just sexual trauma and that's not, you know, going around addiction and, you
know, a violent household, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
What was your, having that as your own personal life, did you start to see that with some
of the men and women in uniform that you started working with?
Oh, absolutely.
It's very common, you know, and now what I attribute it to is eventually we'll talk about
this in more detail, but in my observation of working with veterans and first responders,
there's one commonality in the fact that a person is willing to sign their life away
for service, you know, which is on a very basic level, what you do when you join the
military, you know, or even, you know, as a firefighter or law enforcement, you're,
you're putting your life on the line for this duty, you know, this sense of duty.
So that to me is an indicator that something has happened in their lives to say that this
is okay.
Like I'm willing to risk it at this point, you know, like, and I know through, through
my own experience of dealing with post-traumatic stress disorder, you know, I never had suicidal
ideations, but what I've come to realize is I was slowly killing myself with alcohol and
drugs.
You know, I was, I was taking a more acceptable approach to risking my life to a point where,
where I was threatening my own life, you know, so, so for me, it's, it's coming to the understanding
that that has to root somewhere, you know, and, and for me, a lot of the work that we
do with veterans and first responders is, is not the occurrences that happened in the
line of duty, but from the timeframe of before they decided to sign their lives away, you
know, so, so that's including all of the, all of the traumas in childhood and, and the,
the teenage years, you know, so, so for me, it's impossible to ignore that that is partly
a large part of the reason why people joined the military in the first place.
Yeah.
And I agree completely.
And they say that our ACE scores in uniform are a lot higher than the average civilian.
You think about it, you know, if you, if you've been hurt, then you're either going to curl
up into a ball or you're going to be someone that says, all right, it stops here.
I'm going to, I'm going to protect people for a living.
You look about the adrenal element, you know, the, when you are busy in combat, in fires,
you know, in, in law enforcement, that adrenaline is, is kind of filling the void.
So you don't have to think about other stuff, you know, so there's so many layers to it
that makes perfect sense.
A lot of us enter this profession.
And I've talked about this when we are tested in the fire service, as far as, you know,
to get selected for the job, there's a polygraph, and then there's this thing called the Minnesota
interview personality.
I always get it wrong, but anyway, it was never meant to select us.
And I've always said, why don't we take that same money that agencies are spending and
put it on counseling?
So when you get hired as a police officer, you know, you figure out if we're good or
bad by our test scores on our background check.
And then, you know, that probationary year, give them six, you know, sessions so they
can start offloading some of the things that they brought into the job, which I would argue,
once you process trauma, that becomes a strength.
You become more resilient then.
No, of course, and that's honestly what drives my service today is all of my life experience
as being relatable to others, you know, like so it is because I've navigated a lot of the
traumas that we're treating people for, or, you know, people are coming to these medicines
for I should say.
Because I've experienced a lot of that is why I'm able to help them navigate through
that experience, you know.
And that was a lot of the training that I received through my certification as an integration
coach, you know, for psychedelics is understanding that there's power in listening and that there's
a difference of the approach that a psychologist or a psychiatrist takes when they have a patient
in front of them than an integration coach does.
And it's in that they're trying to identify symptoms in the person to treat, you know,
or common, you know, psychological issues.
Like, so then you get put on a path, you know, but there can be complexities in there that
don't necessarily fit that bill, you know, like where this is narcissism, you know, or
this is like, so I'm going to drive the conversation bit like straight to narcissism.
If you just allow the conversation to evolve a little bit more, then you start realizing
that it's rooted in a trauma.
And it just affords a little more opportunity when you're listening and being, you know,
present in the moment rather than calculating and looking for cues and triggers within the
conversation.
There's a phrase that I love, I've heard, I mean, it's someone else's quote, but, you
know, instead of saying what's wrong with you, you ask what happened to you.
And you talked about narcissism, obviously now in the world of social media, you look
at these people, you know, we had them when we were younger too, and you call them a showoff.
So they were, but now with this kind of, you know, more mature lens, I'm like, ah, what,
you know, what's your story?
Why do you feel like you need a thousand likes or that every, every video you put up, you're
shirtless, you know, lifting weights or whatever it is, you know, and I see it way more empathetically
now that yeah, if you have to be out there and have to seek validation, you should probably
do some soul searching into the why.
No, absolutely.
And people pleasing, I think is another, another issue in our culture, you know, here in the
West, like we're, we're trained to, you know, like there's like just the school system alone,
you know, like we're, we're the, we're the grade system is, is rewarding to the people
who are getting hundreds and nineties on, on their tests, you know, and then you're
kind of shunned for having an issue with the, with the lesson.
Like, so it's, it becomes this, this rat race, like where, where you are seeking out, you
know, the approval of others and inevitably becomes people pleasing.
And now you can't do anything without the acknowledgement of others, you know, like,
so in my life, you know, I was a, that was something that I had to overcome is, is people
pleasing without a doubt, you know, especially when I was, I was pushed out into even a new
school where, you know, I went from the, being the most popular kid in, in my class to nobody
knew who I was.
I started like changing who I was, you know, just to fit in, you know, I used to listen
to rock and roll my entire life.
And then, you know, I went into a school that listened to hip hop and all of a sudden I
was sagging my pants and, and listening to rap, you know, so it was, it's interesting,
you know, like what we have to do in those tribal situations where, where acceptance
becomes and, you know, a really important factor.
Like, so, and so people pleasing in my mind is, is a part of the Western culture, you
know, the more people you please, the more benefit you get.
So, so it's, it creates a lot of it in authenticity in people, you know, where you don't even
know what you like, you know, like, and that's kind of what I love about my experience of
being a jack of all trades is I'm good at everything, you know, like I'm okay at everything,
I should say, I'm not, I'm not the best at, at anything because of it either.
Right.
But I, and it, what it allowed me to do once I realized that, that my actions were just
to please others and say, okay, well, these things and these people that were related
to these things no longer serve me.
So it was an easy severance, you know, of, of what it is that I wanted to, to spend my
life doing rather than what it is other people wanted, wanted me to do.
So when you entered the air force, what was your specialty in uniform?
I was a satellite wideband and telemetry, like so, which inevitably led to me becoming
an engineer for, for satellite communications and combat communications squadron.
So I worked, I worked with the physical equipment, setting up, you know, setting up satellite
terminals and line of sight dishes in, in theater.
I was doing that outside of the wire anytime we had a new territory taken over by, by the
army or the Marines, they'd send me in to survey.
And then a few days later, I'd come back with equipment and set that up so that, so that
they can, you know, have internet and, and reliable communications.
Now, I don't know if I'm getting confused with someone else.
Was it you and I that we're talking, did you find yourself around incidents as far as after
IEDs or am I thinking of someone else?
No, I did.
I don't remember having that conversation with you though, but, but there's a lot of
us, you know, so, so no, no problem there, but yeah, a lot of what, what my traumas in
the air force were.
And I think it's beautiful.
Now looking at it from, from my responsibility currently is I was always in the position
of an observer, never, never, you know, close, I was always close enough to the front lines,
but never engaged with the enemy, you know, and I think the closest ever was one time
I was at a, at a forward operating base and the saw gunner told me I have to go up to
this hill and start shooting.
And if my body rolls down the hill, I need you to get on the saw and keep like at least
giving cover fire.
And I remember that moment saying like, man, I am, I'm trained with an M16 and an M9.
I don't know how to use the saw.
Like what am I going to do if this, if this actually plays out?
And thankfully it didn't, you know, but that was the closest to me accepting that role,
you know, saying like, I'm going to have to do this, you know, to, to protect my life
and the life of others.
But very, very close to, you know, mortar fire, always in, in that, that kind of heat
of battle, you know, because again, we were, we were stationed at a primary base and all
of my experience was in Afghanistan.
So I was either a Bagram Air Force base or Kandahar.
And we would wait for communications either to be a necessity in a new base or, or for
them to get hit by a mortar or, or, you know, enemy fire.
So they need to be repaired.
So we were on standby until we were called.
And when we were called, we were going out of the wire and into these less safe environments.
So there was always gunfire.
There was always attacks going on when, when I was there, especially if it had just been
hit by a mortar, you know, you're looking at the remnants, trying to figure out, you
know, what was still usable or what parts, you know, you needed to change out in order
to get the communications back.
So very high stress and absolutely life threatening.
You've got a technical view when it comes to Bagram.
One of the things that I hear over and over again about the withdrawal is that we should
never have left the base, you know, if nothing else, we should at least, you know, left some
forces there.
And that's, you know, from the Afghan voice, from the American voice with that perspective,
I mean, you've probably got a more logistics view than, than maybe some of the actual,
you know, war fighters themselves.
What's your perspective on the withdrawal and, you know, from a communications point
of view, from an Intel point of view, what do you think should have happened if you were
king for a day?
I would agree.
I would think that, that, you know, it was, it was positioned very strategically Bagram,
you know, and it afforded, you know, expeditious response.
You know, there was a, there was a lot of benefit to that base in particular.
It was beautiful too, you know, like if you got up on some of those mountains, it was,
it was a really nice, nice area.
So for me, I think, you know, the withdrawal, I think the motivation being, you know, the
threat to, to American lives, you know, is, is inevitably what, what that was about.
But, but there was a, there was definitely a struggle afterwards, you know, once, once
the withdrawal happens.
So, and so I would agree that that straight on a strategic level, it would have been,
it would have been a much better idea to remain.
Now that's kind of like, you know, your, your, your perspective of, you know, the, the more
traumatic side, as you said, you know, arriving after mortars and, you know, waiting for a
saw gunner to roll down a hill.
What about kindness and compassion?
That's the other side of war that we don't really hear through our media is, you know,
whether it's the indigenous people, whether it's the, the soldiers themselves or airmen,
what were moments of kindness and compassion that you remember from Afghanistan?
My experience was full of them, you know, like we had for one relationships with interpreters
that were, that were Afghani, that were just hard opened individuals, you know, like, and,
and yeah, you only hear about the stories where the interpreter decided to shoot somebody
in the back, you know, but there were thousands of them.
And the isolated incident in my mind is only to motivate us to continue this path of war,
you know?
And so, and so it's, it's a seed of distrust that is planted in the mind so that you don't
turn your back to that situation, you know?
But in, in my experience, they always offered a cup of chai, you know, like, and, and a
plate of food, like no matter what we would go into the bazaars and in these cities just
outside of, of the, the forward operating bases or even the major bases, and they were
welcoming, you know?
So there were, there were children you had to look out for, they would always try to
take your leathermen or whatever's hanging off of your belt, you know, and run away,
like just out of curiosity, but, but they were, they were a kind people, you know?
And you can, you could see the influence that we had in, in creating higher stress levels
in their day-to-day life too, you know, just seeing us in uniform, even though they knew
us, there was that immediate response of like, like there is a, there's a war fighter here,
you know, like so, and so seeing that too was, was something notable, you know, like
just, just our presence altering their chemistry in that way, you know, has to be, has to be
difficult.
Also, you know, I, they helped every opportunity they had, you know, like they would, if they
saw us loading equipment, they would help us load equipment, you know, there, there
was absolutely kindness and compassion the entire time I was there, even, even in working
with the other, the other countries, you know, like I was with the Royal Air Force for, for
about three, three months or so working in, in Kabul.
And that handshake was also really notable, working with the Chinese army, working, I'm
sorry, the Korean army, working with, with, you know, other countries in that capacity,
it was also very, very interesting, you know, to see that we were all supporting, you know,
this mission of liberating, you know, the Afghanis, if you will, depending on where
you stand, but, but in either case, it was, it was definitely evident.
I just went to Dallas to interview two Iwo Jima veterans for the 7X project and the Uber
from the airport to the hotel was a gentleman from Afghanistan and I, I'm, you know, I can
tell if people don't want to talk, but I'll always spark up a conversation in Uber because
you never know who you're going to talk to.
I mean, I was talking to an IT guru on the way back to the airport, a lady, and she was
talking about, it was just the second time I've heard that now, how some of the IT world
is struggling with jobs at the moment, which makes no sense to me, you know, everything
we do is now technical, but anyway, but back to the Afghan gentleman, yeah, he was an interpreter
with the army, you know, and here he is now driving an Uber, you know, on the way to this
hotel.
So, you know, it's amazing again, hearing his story, he didn't go into too much depth,
but yeah, he was, he was fortunate enough to come over here through the program back
in 2015.
So before the withdrawal, but yeah, I mean, you know, he, he absolutely loves it here.
He still goes back to Afghanistan, which is, you know, it is interesting too.
Like he says he can go to and fro, you know, he's, he's got an American passport and he,
you know, they let him in.
So I know the, I love hearing all these different voices and perspectives, because as I say,
usually with this question, you know, we get such polarizing views on the television and
usually they are nothing like the actual boots on the ground conversations I have with real
people.
No, I would agree wholeheartedly.
I mean, honestly, they're just, they're human beings that are, that are located just geographically
in a different place, you know, like, so, so I think once we recognize it for what it
is, you know, like human nature, like, and even, even just their ideals and their, their
beliefs are a product of where, where they are, you know, like that is just culturally
how they lead their lives or choose to lead their lives.
Like, but, but if you believe in, in the origin of, of humanity, which is, you know, I don't
know very many people that don't, you know, like there's, there's just an opportunity
of, of, you know, supporting your, your beliefs and your culture that you were born into,
you know, we could have easily rolled the dice and ended up in one of those countries.
And I think we forget that, you know, like coming into this life experience.
So, so we are in my mind privileged in, in many ways, but also, you know, like we have
this idea in our heads that, that our way is the best way.
And, and that unfortunately is, is why we're finding ourselves in Afghanistan and leaving,
leaving with the traumas that we're bringing home.
I wish I'd been able to save it, but I saw a video on you on the Instagram a few weeks
ago now, and it was again, some sort of, you know, university discussion.
And I can't remember what the person had posed to the guy, but he basically said that, that
your religion is based purely on where you were born.
It's it's like you said, it's a lottery, you know, if you were born in Afghanistan, there's
a good chance you'd be a Muslim.
If you were born in America in 2023 is a good chance you might be in a Christian family,
et cetera, et cetera.
And so when you look at that, you know, I mean, I'm, I'm much more of a universal spiritual,
you know, spirituality.
There seems to be some pretty solid common denominators amongst most of the faiths.
That's what I lean into.
But to then fight and have wars, especially when you start splitting an actual religion,
Protestant, Catholic, et cetera, et cetera, it just, it's, it's lunacy to me because most
of us agree with the same thing.
Like don't murder your neighbor, you know, don't molest a sheep.
I mean, there's some pretty, pretty solid things that most people will be like, yeah,
you've got a good point there.
And it just kills me to see, you know, Gaza and I mean, all these different things, all
these different disagreements when fundamentally, if you reverse engineering, it's never about
religion.
It's about power and greed at the end of the day by a few tyrants that, you know, rile
up a population.
No, I agree.
And that's, you know, we, we have our privilege really to, to conversations with, with many
different spiritual beliefs.
You know, our, our community is open to all religions, all, all, all ideals, you know,
because we see these as tools to, to strengthen the foundation at which we, we, you know,
have a premise for faith, you know, so very much like you, you know, I grew up Catholic
and, and, you know, very Christian in that sense.
But I always struggled with, with the dogma and the religious, you know, practice as,
as a whole, you know, like for some reason I could never connect with why I have to tell
another human being, you know, what my sins are in order for this other human being to,
to, you know, grant me liberty, if you will, you know, like so, so that, that was always
troubling for me.
Currently, like, because we offer in this way, like I fixate on universal truths, you
know, finding, finding what all these teachers were trying to teach and, and isolating the
common ground and just fixating on that, you know, like really, really turning that into
the lessons that I'm offering people, you know, so, so at that point you don't step
on any toes, you know, and it, and it becomes spiritual rather than religious, you know,
I think that that is where conflict lies is when, when a religion says that this is the
badge that you wear and no other badges is worth acknowledging, right?
Like so, so we are the winning team.
We're the only ones that go to heaven because these are the things that we do.
And to me is ludicrous.
You know, I can't imagine a God that says, because you were born in the Middle East,
you are, you are basically guaranteed damnation because you're not Catholic or you're not
Christian.
You know, for me, it's just, it's, it's ludicrous, you know, like so.
And so I think that God wants harmony, you know, once, wants us to be more in line with
laws of nature, which are not far, not far away from, you know, the, the 10 commandments
or, or any of the other, you know, religious, religious, you know, doctrination, like so.
And so for me, I would agree with you wholeheartedly.
Like, you know, that, that religion is geographical, you know, historically, there's also a reason
these teachers didn't all exist at the same time, you know, like, so it's, it's just,
there's a lot there to look at.
And for me, I'm fortunate to, you know, really that's my profession to look at all those
things and, and make the conversation work best for, for the majority.
Absolutely.
I always live, love listening to Wayne Dyer.
I don't know if you've heard of him, but he almost described him as a white Deepak Chopra,
but that's not exactly the right description, but he was just, he would just gather all
this wisdom and it could be from religious texts.
It could be from, you know, Roman and Greek mythology, you know, whatever it was.
And they would just extract the good from it, the commonalities, you know, so I kind
of always loved his, cause it was just, right.
You know, where do the, where these Venn diagrams overlap?
Where's the real truth here?
And it's, you know, it's kindness, compassion, gratitude.
I mean, you could probably label them on one hand at the end of the day, the real tenets
to be a good human being.
No, I would agree.
And it's, you know, what you're referring to is, is Omnism, you know, like the Omnistic
approach to, to spirituality, which, which basically recognizes all religions as an opportunity
to learn something through a different perspective, you know, and that's, that's essentially what
Agape Church offers here is, is, you know, open doors to any religion, you know, and
very recently we've had a lot of, a lot of Muslim women coming to the women's retreats
and it's a beautiful thing.
You know, I don't have the qualifications to, to unfortunately attend one of these,
you know, it's women only, which, which kind of drives the point, but because Muslim women
are in the safety of knowing that only women will be, will be offering in these retreats,
they're able to take off their hijabs and, and, you know, that freedom alone is, is healing
for them, you know, just ensuring that, that they're only in the presence of women, you
know, based on their faith allows them to, to be more comfortable in their prayer, you
know.
But it's, it's for us really interesting to observe, you know, how other religions are,
are utilizing these practices in the ceremonies that we're offering.
Beautiful.
Well, with your mental health journey, you talked about a lot of trauma going into the
military.
Now you're, you know, serving overseas in Afghanistan.
A lot of men and women in uniform seem to struggle when they transition out, when they
were in uniform, as we talked about, you know, filling the void of trauma, you know, we do
have purpose, we have a tribe, you know, we have community, we have, you know, the, the,
the community that allows us to kind of decompress, you know, we have all the things and then
one day we walk out the door, the fire station, you know, whatever it is.
And now a lot of these people find themselves back at home when no one really understands
what they did.
No one kind of talks or thinks the same way as a lot of the people around them.
And there's a, there's a big struggle.
What was your transition like at that point?
So I had a unique transition in that when I left the air force, I went straight into
contracting.
So I got out of the air force and then like a month later I went back to Afghanistan as
a, as a satellite communications engineer for in a civilian capacity.
So my transition I would say happened after that experience.
You know, I lived in Afghanistan for a year as a civilian.
At this point, my son was to the age where he started associating his relationship with
his father with a laptop, like because I was satellite communications, I always had a decent
internet in Afghanistan.
So we would zoom with, with my son and, and my wife at the time every day, you know, like
every evening, unless I had to, had to jump out to a cop or a fob like for a week or whatever,
he started hugging the laptop and wanting to go to sleep with the laptop.
So for me, that was heartbreaking, you know, so I had to make a decision, you know, and
with satellite communications as a profession, you're basically guaranteeing that you're
going to be in austere conditions, you know, like anywhere that cable is not easily ran,
you know, like so.
And so even the jobs that were available to me here at stateside were working on a ship,
you know, providing maritime satellite communications for an oil rig, things like that, you know,
or working in an oil field in deep Texas, you know, where there's, you know, only cows
in sight.
Like, so it's, it was for me a really hard decision, but I ended up joining, you know,
the family business is where we, where we make that, that full circle, you know, from
before.
But I got my insurance license.
I always tell everybody I was in trouble so much in high school that I was either rebuilding
fences that the cows broke or working in my parents' office.
It's like, so, you know, filing and creating at that time, you had to use a typewriter
to make the ID cards for car insurance, you know, so I got really familiar with the practice
and that answering phones, things like that.
So getting my license was a breeze.
You know, I took the licensing test as soon as I got fulfilled that contract and went
straight to work with my parents.
But in the cultural transition, I think losing a sense of purpose, like, you know, I knew
exactly what I was supposed to be doing in the military and then getting kind of thrown
into the civilian world, not having that sense of purpose and a reason, you know, to perform
actions, you know, if you will, was really interesting for me.
I was also really used to not being around my family, you know, like the way that I used
to provide for my wife and my child was through deployments and through exercises and preparing
and, you know, earning a paycheck in that way.
So being more present with my family was also, you know, something I had to get used to.
And then there was the, you know, I had basically become a professional alcoholic in the military.
Like, so I found myself drinking way more alcohol than normal people do, you know, and
then inevitably finding the other people who had an alcoholic or the alcoholism, you know,
just to find a baseline, you know, and be like, okay, well, these people are keeping
up with the pace that I'm used to, you know.
So there was an interesting transition without a doubt, you know, and socially, I know that
hypervigilance and social anxiety were actually the cues for me to realize that there was
something wrong with me.
You know, I always had, you know, a decent personality, you know, I was always a social
person, but all of a sudden, you know, when I came back, I was not able to even listen
to somebody having a conversation with me because I was fixated on the room, you know,
I could never sit with my back to the entrance or the exit.
You know, there was a lot of that that keyed in, that I keyed into that, that allowed me
to identify that I had post-traumatic stress, you know, from my, from my experiences overseas.
So a lot of that was, is what I would say, you know, led me to, to diagnosing myself,
really like accepting it for myself and, and realizing for myself that what, what I was
living was not normal.
It seems when I listen to a lot of these transition stories, that the times that people finally
have a healthy transition is usually something that replicates what they did before.
Now, I'm not talking about military to contracting.
I'm just talking about using the overall skills in a different way.
And the people that go into the world of finance, or I would argue maybe insurance, where maybe
there isn't a strong feeling of service, of giving back, is when they struggle.
But when they're able to find, for example, the church, you know, a way that they're actually
still serving outside of the uniform, that's where it seems like it's the therapeutic element.
What was your experience with that?
I would agree, you know, like I feel a hundred percent fulfilled in my role now, you know,
and even when I was an insurance agent, I found that by serving my community again,
like I was the president for Palmer drug abuse program in, in McCallan for, for five years,
you know, so, so even though I was not getting that fulfillment as an insurance agent, you
know, there was still, there's a lot of hard conversations to have as an insurance agent
too.
So I feel like the military prepared me to have difficult conversations with people,
you know, but, but in either case, I would agree, you know, like right now I feel, you
know, I have a community of 800 people currently, you know, and, and it feels a lot like what
I'm used to, like, and the role that I, that I fulfill is, is, you know, at sometimes a
managerial role, sometimes a leadership role, sometimes, you know, I'm like, we just had
a deep clean this past weekend with the community and I was, I was pulling cobwebs down and,
and moving mattresses, things like that.
So it's, it felt a lot more familiar, if you will, to, to my military experience.
So and I've never looked at it through that perspective.
So thank you for bringing that to my attention.
I'll wrap my head around that more clearly for sure, but, but I would a hundred percent
agree that, that, you know, and, and admit, you know, that, that, that is a comfort that
I am finding in my current position without a doubt.
Beautiful.
Well, I mean, you're doing so much and we'll, we'll get into, you know, some of the stories
in a minute.
So you've transitioned out, you're working in insurance, you're trying to find people
that match your level of drinking that mirrors, you know, the time in uniform.
Walk me through your own mental health journey and how you found plant medicine.
So for me, it was, it was a slow unwinding, you know, I was also, I've always been very
headstrong too, you know, like, so, so there was a level of awareness where, where this
was not spilling over too much outside of, outside of my household, you know.
But once the, once the drinking started taking a priority over my responsibilities as a husband
and a father is when I started looking really closely at my behaviors, you know, like I
started realizing for that, for myself, thank God, you know, like, because I know that,
that some people are not able to, to identify that in themselves, which makes the recovery
process harder.
You know, when somebody is telling you, you have a problem, it's different than knowing
that you have a problem, you know?
So for me, I, I remember clearly that the catalyst for me was I had taken out a group
of engineers that I had a large contract with basically for professional liability policy
and drank till like four in the morning.
And the next morning at eight o'clock, my son had an awards ceremony that I was supposed
to take him to at the time.
My wife was a nurse and she was on schedule.
So I decided it was a better idea to keep drinking, to stay awake because I was afraid
I was in oversleep.
And I made it to like probably six in the morning, but then I didn't wake up till three
in the afternoon.
And my son was sitting on the couch next to me waiting for me to wake up.
And he said, like, as soon as I woke up, he got really excited and he was like, oh, now
it's time to go to the award ceremony.
And I was like, my heart broke, you know, like that was, that was for me, my rock bottom
is in knowing that I let him down and he was receiving awards, you know, so it was, it
was for me.
I, at this time I was already working with the VA too.
And for, I would say the first year or two that I was on pharmaceuticals, I'm really,
really thankful for those years because that allowed me to accept that there was an issue.
Once I started feeling myself normalizing slightly before the numbing, before all that
started to take place in my life, you know, as a result of using pharmaceuticals, I was,
I was really clear in knowing that, that there was something to fix.
In other words, you know, like something inside was not, was not working correctly.
So I'm very thankful, you know, but then at a certain point, once I started like getting
into the numbness of it all, that's really what excelled my, my drug abuse and alcoholism
is that I was so numb that I wanted to feel something, you know, and like I was able,
I was a busy bee, you know, I was able to listen to people and communicate, but not
with the character that I was used to having, you know, so I lost my sense of humor.
I was just kind of there, you know, like I was never really present.
So I would, you know, I would basically, I would drink in order to feel something, you
know, and then because of the pharmaceuticals I was on, it took way more alcohol, you know,
so I started feeling the physical effects of that and like getting pain and things,
pain in my back, having injuries because of the amount of alcohol that I was drinking.
So, so it was, it was a really important part of, of, you know, isolating the issue and
finding and seeking out an alternative, you know, so at this point I knew that the pharmaceuticals
weren't working for me, not in the way that they, that I expected them to, you know, but
I knew that I had a problem.
So I started, you know, my search like, like most people do on the internet, looking for
alternatives to, to like, really I did a search of like cures for PTSD and then it pointed
me to Joe Rogan podcast, you know, and, and I was listening to Graham Hancock talk about
his experience with ayahuasca and in the comments of that YouTube video, I, I started like unearthing
opportunities to sit with ayahuasca, you know, so a lot of that pointed towards Peru and
this is right when COVID hit.
So travel restrictions happened.
I was actually so committed that I was looking at smuggling myself into Peru to, to, you
know, gain access to this and what I thought could, could help me.
But then I identified again in the comments of all these YouTube videos that there were
churches and theogenic churches that offered, you know, ayahuasca as a sacrament here in
the United States.
So in discovering that 30 days after there was a retreat available and through my research,
I already knew that I needed to get off of my pharmaceuticals, you know, 30 days before
I wouldn't recommend anybody do what I did, you know, but I cold turkey stopped taking
my medications to prepare for this ceremony and I showed up to, to a retreat weekend.
I had scheduled three sessions, you know, three ceremonies.
I ended up fulfilling two and got so much out of those two that I sat out of the third
one just to write, you know, just to journal what it is that had happened.
I came back, I never took a pharmaceutical drug again to this day, you know, like, and
I, the journey started, you know, I wouldn't say that I was, I rid myself in that first
experience of, of a lifetime worth of trauma, but I definitely like developed the, the strength
and the gumption, if you will, to, to heal myself, you know, further with, with this,
you know, different modality and it opened me up spiritually, which, which allowed, you
know, or strengthen my faith to understand that this was, this was beyond physical.
This was beyond, you know, something that I, that I can tangibly say is wrong with me.
You know, these are, these are spiritual wounds.
These are, these are psychological wounds that, that I was, I was faced with.
And that put me on, on the path, you know, of really learning more and, and becoming,
you know, more active in the spiritual community and inevitably, you know, founding, founding
our own church.
What about your wife?
What was her perception of what worked for you?
And then you bring in her along to create the church.
So, so let's say like, because I was, I was married prior to, to meeting Raquel, who is
my current wife, right?
Like, so what's interesting about, and I'll touch on both because I think both are interesting.
Once my, once my previous wife started feeling the effects of me becoming, you know, a stronger
human being, you know, she started, like, she basically took that as an opportunity
to say, you know, now that I know that, that you are safe and that you are not going to
cause harm to yourself or others, I feel this is the perfect opportunity to, to sever our
relationship, you know, so, so my healing gave her the strength and the confidence to
say I'm not happy in this relationship.
And the only reason I was here is because I love you as a best friend, not as a husband,
you know, like, so, so we decided to separate and, and honestly, I, it, it was perfect timing,
you know, because I was also feeling obligated to be a better husband to her.
Like, just out of that, you know, just, just out of the fact that I knew that I was, I
was not, you know, I was not giving her my best.
Like, so I felt obligated to show her my best, but in that moment, we both just kind of shake
hands and said, thank God, we don't have to go through this, you know, like, we're like,
I don't feel, I don't want to do this because I feel sorry for you and you don't want to
do this because you feel sorry for me, you know, so, so we separate at this time, I'm
fully committed to the church and, you know, I was traveling back and forth to Florida.
I started my certification as an integration guide, things like that.
And I got more, more known, I guess, in the spiritual community.
So once I told the guys there in Florida that I was working with, and now they're named
Wellness Retreat Alliance, they also work with veterans with a church there in Florida,
that it was getting too taxing for me to, to travel back and forth to Florida.
You know, I was like, look, I love what I do, you know, but I need to find something
closer to home.
In that moment, you know, Justin, the founder told me, well, you know, why don't you reach
out to the, to our sister community in Houston?
I was like, Justin, you could have said that like a year ago, you know, like I've been
coming back and forth, you know, like, and it's, and it's expensive, you know, like you
could have saved me a lot of money and a lot of time by introducing me, but in reality,
they were two months old, Agape was two months old at that time.
So, so I reached out and you know, I tell this story all the time in our orientations
where, and I'll cut it short, but I basically sent my resume in a WhatsApp message to Raquel,
who's now my wife.
That must have been a hell of a resume.
I know, right?
Well, what's hilarious is, you know, a book of text, you know, like an airman's dream
of bullet points, you know, like there's no way somebody will tell me no with all these
qualifications I send it and there's no way she read it, you know, in the time that she
responded.
She just said, no, we're full.
Thank you, but I'll put you on the waiting list.
And I was like, oh my God, are you serious?
You know, and it was like the week of the ceremony.
I got back from the ceremony in Florida on Monday and I sent this message, you know,
so I was, I was sitting in my own thoughts forever rereading the resume, trying to figure
out what I said wrong or what I could have said better, you know, just really stuck in
my own thoughts.
And then it got to Thursday night, which is the night before the ceremony offering.
So I just took a final shot and I said, look, if, if I'm, if anyone canceled, you know,
I'm still willing to come, but you need to let me know soon because I have a six hour
drive from McAllen to Houston.
And that's what sold, sold me to her is, is that dedication.
They weren't paying me to be there.
It was a volunteer, you know, opportunity.
So she, she said, you know what, somebody did cancel, so you're welcome to come and
then come to find when I showed up, there were no volunteers.
There were, it was just me, you know, and she was just protecting the community.
You know, she, she didn't know who I was, even though I came with, you know, Justin
as a reference, like she wasn't willing to risk, you know, the ceremony so close to,
to the offering, you know?
So I showed up and she's like, said to him, I'm really happy you're here.
There's two people that aren't going to drink after all, so they're going to help you and
you're going to lead the volunteers.
And I was like, what, you know, like what happened to this waiting list of people that
like, she didn't have a volunteer program at all at this, at this point either.
She was doing everything with, with her best friend, you know, so, so, and, and of course,
the, the Colombian shaman that they were working with at the time.
So, so the weekend went really well, you know, she invited me to come back and to establish
eventually the, the volunteer program.
And then at the, right around that point that I started, you know, becoming more involved
in the community, she, she allowed me to, to start offering integration.
You know, I graduated from the program and I established the integration program for
Agapa Church at that point too.
We inevitably end up in, in Kona, Hawaii for a week, you know, offering an ayahuasca retreat
with, with the Colombian shaman.
And that's really where we found ourselves with, with the first opportunity to, to have
some personal time, you know, together.
So we end up, you know, seven day retreat, everything goes really, really well.
And at the end, all of the volunteers got an Airbnb together for, for two nights, like
right by the beach, something really nice, you know, to decompress.
And, and for some reason, divinity played in and everybody that was supposed to stay
with us ended up somewhere else other than us, you know, so we found ourselves alone
together, getting to know each other better and, and came back as a couple, you know,
so that's kind of where we wrote, you know, all of our plans, you know, we had both just
recently gotten divorced, no, no interest at all in finding somebody else.
And then the perfect person fell in our laps, you know, in that way.
So it was, it was really interesting, the evolution of, of us, you know, and, and when
inevitably became, you know, the agapa church that people have grown to know today.
That's so good to hear.
I was just having a conversation on someone else's podcast yesterday.
And we're talking about, you know, my experience, I got divorced and then, you know, there was,
there was infidelity, which, you know, totally over and out, not a big deal at all, you know,
and have no, no resentment towards it, but that was the end of that relationship.
And then, you know, I fumbled around dating for a couple of years and then I met my wife
and it was first date and then we spent every day together since, you know, if I'm not working
or she's, she's a med school, she's 300 miles away, but, but I was literally just trying
to tell the story of don't give up.
Like they're there, that person is out there for you.
Now you may need to do some self work too.
Maybe you found yourself a little off kilter.
So take that time, you know, heal yourself, become that individual that your first partner
fell in love with in the first place or, you know, a 10, 20 year version of that.
And then, you know, open your heart again.
And I can see how probably the ceremonies, you know, the forgiveness and, you know, not
having any resentment.
Obviously, like you said, yours was very amicable.
There's a lot of people out there whose divorces weren't.
It seems like another tool if you, if you're in a relationship that's just ended, not failed
ended that plant medicine could be a great way of healing so that you can refine that,
that romantic trust in love and that that self-worth again.
Yeah.
And I think, I think ultimately, you know, people fall in love with, with potential of
the other person too, you know, like so, so there's always, there always seems to be
like that settling, like all of these 10 things are perfect, but these two things we can work
on for the rest of our lives or however that looks for, for the individual couple, you
know, like, so I think where the relationships start to start to start to fall apart is when,
when your hopes in that potential actually actualizing are, are starting to slip away,
you know, like, so you start accepting that these things will not change in a person and,
and inevitably that, that, you know, for me, you see that in nature all the time too, you
know, like a seed needs to crack out of its, its shell to, to even become the plant that
it's supposed to be, you know, like, so, so understanding that that which no longer serves
you, you know, should be released as also, you know, an evolution and a maturity of understanding
of relationship, you know, like most people get married as children, you know, like as,
as very young adults that, that are learning, you know, how to, how to be adults together
in many different ways, you know, like, so, so that comes with, with mistakes, you know,
like sometimes you're just enamored, which is why you got married, you know, and, and
that's not enough or it's sustainable for a relationship, you know, so, so it's, I think
you're spot on, you know, like it's something that can absolutely help people is in, you
know, these plant medicines and at this point, it's no secret, it's introducing you to who
you truly are, you know, it's showing you who you are in the moment that, that you are
sitting with these plant medicines. So anything that you brought into the ceremony is what
you're going to be dealing with, you know, and, and that's, that is a wide spectrum of,
of a lifetime of experience for, for people who are coming to these ceremonies for the
first time. So it's also important not to show up with expectations, you know, a lot
of the people, like we work with people who are, are, you know, just getting out of a,
of a divorce situation that are coming to, to find, you know, peace in, in the idea of
the divorce. And then they end up just working on all of their childhood traumas. And then
like, they're like, well, but I didn't, I didn't get any receive anything about my divorce.
It's like, well, how do you know that? Like a lot of your behaviors are, are stemming
from these childhood traumas. So eventually it's going to evolve into an understanding
of why your marriage didn't work out, you know, like just, just give it some time, like,
and give yourself some time to understand what it is that you received and you're going
to end up a happier person, you know, with the expectation of, you know, it's like, and
I credit this to, to pharmaceuticals too, if you have a headache, you take a Tylenol,
you know, and then the headache goes away. So people come to these ancestral medicines
with the same idea, you know, like I have PTSD, so I'm going to drink ayahuasca. So
I don't have PTSD anymore. It's like, well, wait a second. It's going to teach you why
the compartmentalization was such an issue for you, you know, and then like whatever
that looks like in your life is what you're going to be addressing. So it's an evolution
of a healing journey, you know, and that's, that's ultimately why it's called the journey
and not a destination, you know, is, is it takes time and it takes dedication to overcome
a lifetime of trauma and experience.
Absolutely. I want to get to, you know, a great example, which is my good friend, Tom,
Tom Hill, but before we do give me an overview, because I mean, I know he's, he's done biote.
He's done ayahuasca. I mean, he's done several now. What are, you know, the, the plant medicine
ceremonies that you do offer in agape specifically?
So we have, we have ayahuasca. We have bufoa alvarius. We have psilocybin mushroom ceremonies.
We have masculine ceremony. So either peyote or San Pedro, depending on, on the person
that's offering those medicines. And then we also work with, with a medicine called
combo. Combo is, is also something that, that bull experience and that's essentially a 20
minute detox. You know, it, it rids the body of, of a lot of, a lot of things. So there's,
it's a purgative experience, but it's not, it's not an antigen, you know, it's, it's
more of a detox experience. So those are, those are the sacraments that we work with
here at, at agape church.
I had a guest on Mike Salemi, who's a, you know, when it comes to strength and conditioning
and nutrition and just wellness in general, but he's definitely one of the gurus.
The kettlebells, you know, the Russian bags, all kinds of things. He's, he's a real, you
know, just open-minded, you know, multifaceted fitness person. But in our last conversation,
he just come back from doing combo. And this is a guy who was already, you know, physically
in a great shape mentally, I'm sure he was doing pretty well. And he raved about it and
just, just the, the aggressive purge that ensued, he said was completely liberating.
Right. Yeah. And for us, you know, the, and the culture we're trying to create around
these plant medicines is, is that such a beneficial part of, of, of the experience, you know,
ridding the body of that, which no longer serves you. But when people are coming to,
to these medicines, that's usually the first question they have. Well, am I going to go
to the restroom? Am I going to throw up? Do I have to, you know, it's like, well, you
don't have to, but that means you're going to hold on to all the things that you're not,
you know, that no longer serve you, you know, like, so, so look at it through, through the
act of releasing the, you know, the limitations and the challenges in your life rather than,
you know, the, the thought that somebody is going to judge you for that action, because
that's ultimately why people don't, don't want to purge, you know, is, is that, you
know, some people don't like to throw up, right? I get it. But, but most people don't
like to throw up in a room full of people either, you know, so, so that's where, that's
where the idea I think is rooted in, in that people are going to see me, you know, in this,
in this act, you know, so, so there's vulnerability there. And I think that's where, where people
that are, that are new and coming to the medicine get in their own way, you know, like if, if
it's that simple, like it would, it would be like saying, you know, my stomach hurts,
I'm going to take this laxative, but I don't want to go to the restroom. You know, like,
well, you're taking the laxative because you can't go to the restroom, you know, like,
so you're going to have to do that, you know, and that's, that's ultimately what we're faced
with in these plant medicines. We're dealing with all, all the things that we've shelled,
you know, over the years, you know, anything we didn't want to, to give attention to emotionally,
physically or spiritually is, is what we're faced with, you know, in, in these ceremonies.
So, so for me, it's the most, I look forward to the purge and I acknowledged it because
I acknowledge it as exactly that, ridding my body of what, what is interfering, you know, so, so for me, it's a beautiful thing.
And it even makes me happy to hear people purge, you know, and that's something Bull,
you know, has learned in the process too. We have to tell them, like, don't applaud
when people are purging, you know, like don't, don't like cheer people on, you know, in
the ceremony space. Like it's, it's good to be happy for people liberating themselves,
but you know, it gets to that point where you recognize it as just a sacred act, you
know, like something that, that is, is helping others.
So speaking of Tom, Tom Bull Hill, he's been on here before. I think it was, I can't remember
if it was before or after he had the stroke, but you know, it comes out of the fire service,
30 plus years as a firefighter in special operations, then, you know, mutual friends
of ours, you know, especially closer to him, cause he worked there for so long, start dying
from, you know, suicide and cancer and all the things. And we attend all these funerals.
You know, I start my podcast, he starts walking from Key West all the way up to Tallahassee
and really just takes on so much secondary trauma from, you know, the brothers and sisters
of these firefighters, the widows, the widowers, et cetera, et cetera. And a few, what was
it now three months ago, I just kind of stumbled across a post and I was like, Oh, you know,
I haven't, I've actually had called him, but he hadn't returned my call. So I'm like, all
right, let me, let me dig in a little bit more. And it turns out that he had actually
kind of spiraled and found himself in a very, very dark place, physically, mentally, spiritually,
everything. I know that Ryan Parrott from Sons of the Flag, from 7X, good friend of
mine, had recently been connected with you. And so, and I want to say shout out to Christian
Myers, because I know that was the missing link that I wasn't aware of. And I just saw
him with these two Iwo Jima vets this last couple of days. So I want to give a shout
out to him. But these beautiful humans all make these connections and we're able to get
bull over to you. So you, you know, I know as you touched on, he's done several different
ceremonies now. So talk to me about the man that stood in front of you the first time
and through your eyes through, you know, actually from the church, what have you seen as far
as the journey and the metamorphosis?
He's been, he's been an incredible testimony for a human that, that will stop at nothing
to for his wellness, you know, like, and he's, he's really leaned into all of our offerings
and seen a lot of positive results because of it, you know, like, and, and going back,
you know, I remember picking him up from the airport and him mentioning to me that he had
mobility issues, you know, like, so, so I made sure to like be on the inside lane when
I picked him up and things like that. I'm helping him into the vehicle, put his bag
in the vehicle. And, you know, we have a Tahoe. So when he was getting into the vehicle, it
was really difficult for him, you know, in the state that we received him. And then we
brought him to the cabins. The cabins have a series of steps that you have to take to
get up there and, and took him probably seven minutes to get up the, up the stairs. And
that's not an exaggeration, you know, so, so seeing the state that he was in already,
I was logically trying to figure out what we needed to adjust in the ceremony space,
you know, like, so we made sure that his mat was closer to the restrooms in the event that
he needed to get up and use the restroom. We put up next to a central post so that he
didn't have something to, you know, grab onto things like that. We're already racing through
my mind, you know, but in the first ceremony, you know, and his first experience with us
was a private experience. You know, it was, it was something that, that we put on the
calendar, I think within days, you know, like you expressed that he was, he was on his last
leg and for us, you know, that's, that's an indicator that we need to make adjustments
to save a life, you know, so we ended up accommodating him, you know, in short notice. And, and so
he was alone with us in the ceremony for, for the weekend, or for the weekdays in this
case. So we got to observe every, every action in the ceremony, you know, and, and as soon
as his experience started, you know, a lot of it's personal, you know, but, but to generalize
it, I, the first indicator that, that this was going to be something that worked for
him is that when he needed to use the restroom, like in the middle of the ceremony, he just
popped up from the mat. You know, this is, he was in a laying state. He just stood straight
up, looked at the volunteer and said he didn't need help and walked straight to the restroom
and then walked straight back and then sat back on the mat. And I remember Raquel and
I looking at each other like, Oh my God, he, he doesn't even realize that it didn't take
him 10 minutes to get to the restroom. You know, so he, you know, just displayed so much
strength, you know, in his healing, you know, like he would, he would be going through it
physically and then just prop himself back up to sitting, you know, just to be present
with the experience. And, and, you know, for me, just seeing that level of dedication was
an inspiration, you know, and after, after the experience, you know, you didn't have
a lot of recollection, but, but what we were working off of is, is what he could acknowledge,
you know, like his speech has started to clear, you know, his, his motor skills were a little
easier, you know, his shaking, you know, started to go away and in his limbs and, and sensation
came back to, to his hands, things like that, you know, so it's, so we made sure just to
encourage him through, through his experience, like, look, it's not going to be like everybody
else's experience. So what you're going off of is someone else's, you know, laundry list
of trauma that led to their experience, you know, so if you want to replicate that, that
essentially means you have to suffer in the exact same way and it's still not guaranteed
that you're going to have that experience. Like, so just accept your experience as the
unique experience that you need in your life to heal, you know, and he has like, so he's,
he has changed tremendously, you know, and I'm saying this like to the audience, because
I know, you know, this already about Bull, but it's like, we were talking, you know,
at the beginning of the call and he's just a much more pleasant person to be around,
like currently, you know, like when you are fed up with life, you're not, you're not somebody
that people want to be around either, you know, and, and now like we, we've grown to
love Bull as a member of the community because he's so full of life, you know, and, and it's,
it's been a beautiful evolution to see his commitment through other ceremonies, you know,
he's come back for a group ceremony. He's brought his partner to, to ceremony too. And,
and really just seeing, you know, the life returned back to Tom has been a true honor,
you know, and, and I would love to recognize him for the work that he's done, you know,
he's inevitably going to inspire others, which I think, and that's what I continually communicate
with him is the power of his testimony, you know, is, is something that needs to be shared,
you know, like it's, it's something that I think will save a lot of lives in seeing somebody
like Bull, you know, coming to, to these ceremonies and really benefiting in his life. So, so
it's been a real honor to grow alongside him. He's coming back this weekend too. So we're
really excited to see him. I spoke to him yesterday. So, so yeah, yeah, he's, he's doing
really, really well.
Amazing. Yeah. I mean, he was definitely in crisis when I spoke to him, you know, and
I want to say huge shout out. I mean, there's so many people rally around him. This is why,
you know, people say, oh, there's no brotherhood in the fire service or sisterhood. I disagree.
You just looking in the wrong places. And there was a group of Orange County and I'm
sure some other people, firefighters that he was living on a boat and we had the hurricane
and it damaged his boat and they literally rebuilt the entire inside of this boat, you
know, reseal that got rid of mold and all kinds of things. So, I mean, so many people
rally around because they care. And, you know, I was just fortunate enough to be able to
make the connections to get him to you. I know he went to the brain health clinic as
well. So he's doing all the things, transcend the helping him with his, with his hormones
from their foundation. But when I spoke to him, when he came back, he was telling me
the story of the purge and the, you know, the kind of the shadow that came from, from
out of him and, you know, walked out of the room and he was chuckling and he goes, you
know, he was like, yeah, so, you know, I'm not sure if it's made a difference yet. I
mean, mate, you haven't fucking laughed in, you know, weeks since we started talking to
each other from, from finding that he was struggling even before that, you know, as
we've spoken to him recently, he's always frustrated with, you know, foundations and
being disappointed by people that were in, that aren't in anymore when it comes to support
and his kind of mission. But I'm like, you haven't laughed and you just chuckled like
multiple times in this conversation. That was after the first one, the very first one.
So, you know, and it's just getting better and better and better. He's getting more enthused.
So he's going to come on the show. We're going to do another one with, I think once he's
done with all, all the treatments so that, you know, everything is, it's kind of topped
up. I'm going to spring him back here and we'll sit down and do a second interview so
we can tell this whole story. And he can obviously dive into a little bit more of his experiences.
That being said, you also have the Agape Foundation, the, I'm sorry, the Agape Heroes, Agape Heroes.
Through a podcast that I was on, Kelsey Sheeran, which is the Brass in Unity podcast, she mentioned
a firefighter that reached out to her that she'd tried to help before. Hudos to this
guy. I'll keep him anonymous. But he had tried a multitude of things before. Like he was
really trying to get help. Had a tragedy as his mother was murdered and it just sent him
back down a spiral. After, you know, I'd seen how well Bull had done. He was connected with
me and I'm like, well, it's funny, you know, the timing is perfect because it was Ayahuasca
that he was looking into, the plant medicine route. And we were able to connect him to
you. And it was through the Agape Heroes Foundation that you brought him in, in the group setting.
So talk to me, you don't have to name the name, but talk to me about that group setting
and another firefighter life saved. Because I know it was two days of him, you know, not
buying in and a third day was a revelation.
Right, exactly. Yeah. And so Agape Heroes Foundation is a nonprofit that offers a specialized
container for veterans and first responders to commune with Ayahuasca and other plant
medicines, but in this case, Ayahuasca. So it had lined up beautifully for him because
he had entered into rehabilitation and was getting out the week of our next Agape Heroes
retreat. So I got the call from rehab, you know, the first contact that we had and he
was like, hey, I should be clean, you know, and there are no substances, there is no alcohol
and they're pretty much feeding me like the diet restrictions that are required to attend
your ceremony. So if you'll have me, you know, I'd be more than willing. So we ended up giving
him a scholarship to join us considering, you know, and that's inevitably what Agape
Heroes Foundation does is for one, we offer these ceremonies already at an incredibly
affordable rate considering what the going rate is, you know, across the country and
in other countries, we are by far offering more value in that way because we have, you
know, individuals that are donating towards the benefit of veterans and first responders.
We have corporations too that are helping us. So it allows us to offer in a way that
is more accessible to many, you know, so we have a baseline and Agape Heroes also has
a scholarship program that will cover up to 80% of that cost. And the reason, you know,
we rarely pay in full is because that energy exchange we have found needs to be there in
order for somebody to add value to the experience. You know, when I established Agape Heroes
two years ago, we offered 15 veterans for free, you know, and none of those veterans
have come back, you know, like they came, they had their experience, but they don't
feel like it was something of value, you know, so we still maintain contact, but there is
a difference in investing in yourself, you know, in that way. So we've decided, you know,
covering 80% of a scholarship still, you know, you need to put some elbow grease into
what it is that you're looking to receive. So he came for one of those offerings, you
know, and it was a small group. I think we had close to 10 people and in these cases,
regardless, you know, the retreats are limited to 15 participants so that the integration
is more focused, you know, and we just find it more beneficial for veterans to have, you
know, not only a conversation, you know, that is going to be relatable to veterans and first
responders, there's a lot of things you don't have to stop and explain, you know, with those
experiences, which is why we created that opportunity to begin with, but it's also you
feel seen, you know, like in your healing process, like in a smaller container like
that. So he's also one that was like showed up with a lot of expectations, even though
he said he didn't do a lot of research, you know, he seemed to know what he was supposed
to expect, you know, and it was interesting too, because he coming from rehab, he had
had conversations with people about coming to drink ayahuasca and the majority of the
people in rehab were telling them you're going to trip out, you know, like this is going
to be a psychedelic experience for you. So those seeds were planted in him. So, you know,
that was not something he was looking forward to. He was looking forward to the healing
part of it, you know. So his first two experiences, he got very little, you know, other than presence,
like he was just very present in the space and, and the first night he decided to say,
you know, that it went beautifully, like, so then the second daytime ceremony, he comes
out saying the same thing. So I, I kind of keyed in like to he's not, he's not really
sharing, you know, what his experience was. So I made mention of like, look, while you're
with me is the only time that I can help guide you through this experience, you know, like,
so don't think that you're going to have a better conversation with me than you are,
are afforded in this moment when we are sharing space together, you know, and I always use
this analogy of a dance, you know, people buy tickets to, to attend a dance, right.
And the doors open at eight o'clock, but everybody takes a table or a seat, not the dance floor
that they paid to enjoy, you know, not until this brave person decides to take his wife
up and dance to their favorite song and get permission to the rest of the dance floor
that y'all can do what it is that y'all came to do, you know, like, so what I, what the
invitation is in the integration is like, just come and dance with me, you know, like
I'm, I start, you know, I always start by sharing my experience and, and then, you know,
set the tone for everybody else, you know, and, and so when I, when I, you know, basically
explained that to him in the integration, the following morning, he came out with the
truth and he's like, you know, I really don't feel like I'm connecting and he felt hopeless
like that, that the medicine wasn't going to be working for him.
So with that knowledge, you know, like the understanding the truth, you know, we changed
the prayer, we changed the intention, you know, to fit the, his needs and, and ensure
that he's going to be connecting.
It was the last opportunity.
So, so he did, you know, and it was beautiful and beautiful to witness, you know, like for
one, we already kind of are able to gauge whether or not somebody is connecting with
the medicine, but that's part of the, of the relationship with the plant medicine too,
is understanding to trust it, you know, a majority of the reason that happens for people
is because they're resistive, you know, to, to the process, you know, they don't want
to believe that it's going to help them.
So, so yeah, in seeing him actually connect and, and really liberate himself from, from
a lot in, in such a short amount of time, you know, on the last day, it was beautiful
and he gave an amazing testimony afterwards.
You know, he, I've talked to him recently too.
I talked to him last week.
He's still doing really well.
So, so yeah, it was, it was a true blessing to have him join us and, and witness that
evolution right at the finish line, you know, so it's, it was really interesting.
I forgot about that.
So he did put it out so we can say his name Tanner.
Don't need to say the last name, but yeah, he did.
He did.
I forgot about it.
I was being, being careful when I spoke to him, having tried so many things, and this
is what I think creates despair in responders and he'd even tried ketamine.
And I asked him like, you know, tell me about that experience.
Oh, well they, you know, I said, was, was someone there guiding you?
Oh, no, no, they just put in the IV and then they walked out.
And I'm like, well, therein lies the problem.
You know, someone opened the door and no one allowed you to start unpacking what was in
there.
You just left to your own devices.
But I remember, so he's literally, you know, suicidal at the point where I'm talking to
him, not, you know, actually about to do it there and then, but I mean, definitely suicide
ideation strong.
And he, the other side, when I talked to him, he said, you know, yeah, the first two days,
I didn't really feel anything.
And he said, and I paraphrase that James, that third day was the most powerful experience
of my entire life.
And that includes the birth of my children and being hired as a firefighter.
And obviously he adores his children, but that was, he was trying to illustrate the
magnitude of the experience that he had on day three.
So to go from, you know, probably going to kill himself to a complete rebirth after three
days of ayahuasca to me, I mean, that's a huge testament to it.
No, of course.
And that's honestly what we're set out, you know, in an ideal situation, you know, there,
there will come a point where no one needs medicine anymore, you know, like, because
the job is being done, right?
Like, and that's, that's an ideal world.
Like we're like, so it's seeing Tanner.
I don't know if we'll ever see Tanner back, you know, because of his success story.
And that fills my heart, you know, like that's ultimately the testimonies that I would love
to share with everyone, you know, is that this is, this is a one, a one lifetime experience
to change the rest of your life, you know, and, and it's unfortunately, you know, not
the case for everyone, you know, and it can't be the case for everyone.
You know, life has to teach us lessons in order for us to grow, you know, so, so it
ends up being, you know, a part of the, the perfect design of, of a human experience,
you know, having these, these goods so that, or these, these bads happen in a way that
will allow us to appreciate the good times, you know, like, so it, there, there has to
be an ebb and flow in life.
Like, so, but it was, it was such a beautiful, you know, thing to witness, you know, in,
in another human being is just an absolute liberation in the way that, that, you know,
that Tanner was afforded.
So yeah, he's doing, he's doing really, really well too.
Well, I'm sure people listening are probably intrigued.
So let's talk about where people can find the church and the, the Agape Warriors program
so that hopefully some, you know, this is reaching some people that maybe that will
send them down their path of healing as well.
Yeah, of course, so, so Agape Church for the Soul, Mind and Body is, is the name of our
church.
We're located in Conroe, Texas.
Permanently, we have a retreat center here on 25 acres that, that has 11 different buildings
on it.
So it's an established offering.
We have specialized programs, not only for veterans and first responders in the Agape
Heroes Foundation, but we also have Amethyst Hearts, which is a women's foundation.
It offers in the exact same way, other than for women who have experienced domestic violence
and sexual abuse.
So rather than offering a container for, for veterans and first responders, this is an
opportunity for women to commune together.
And you know, oftentimes in, you know, healing with the absence of the masculine energy.
So those are two programs that, that we offer.
And those two programs specifically are offered because those are our, our labors of love.
You know, that's, that's our way of thanking these plant medicines for, for the liberation
that we received.
You know, it was PTSD that brought me to the medicine, you know, so, and I know that I'm
not alone in that, in that experience.
So it's, so this is me thanking, you know, this, the experience in specializing, you
know, and making available, you know, this, this experience to, to veterans and first
responders.
And the same for, for my wife, Raquel, in offering Amethyst Hearts.
You know, she's a survivor of sexual assault and domestic violence, you know, so, so this
is her labor of love and in making this more accessible to, to women who have suffered
in the same way.
Yep.
We have retreats almost every weekend of the month, different retreats, you know, we offer
ayahuasca retreats ourselves.
We also work with very reputable facilitators of plant medicine that all have been trained
traditionally in, in different, in different capacities, you know, like we also open ourselves
to other teachings through different cultures in that way.
So it really enriches the community in a way that we couldn't do on our own, you know,
so I would encourage people, we have a website for both organizations, Agapa Church's website
is agapa for the number four smv.com and then agapaheroes.org is, is available to you to
peruse and get more information.
We're also on social media, you know, limited.
We don't, we don't, you know, put our, our neck out, you know, but in either case, if
you're interested in, in direct messaging us on Instagram or Facebook or Tik Tok, even
we do have a presence there.
So yeah, we're looking to grow.
We're accepting new members and, and we're always, you know, interested in helping people.
So if, if any of this, you know, resonated with you, I'd be more than happy to further
answer your specific questions.
Well, Sergio, I want to say thank you.
Like I said, there are two firefighters living much better lives now than, you know, the,
the two men in crisis that could well have not been here anymore because of what you
have done.
And obviously the people around them that have surrounded them up to that point as well,
but you brought the solution to the problem.
That was the thing.
And I talk about this a lot.
There's such a, a beautifully diverse toolbox now for men, women, and children who are struggling
and it might be equine therapy or diving or surfing or meditation or new calm or, you
know, ayahuasca or cambo, but everyone has their unique cocktail of what, what's going
to work.
And for this to be put, especially in the first responder community, we hear a lot about,
you know, veterans exploring treatment solutions.
I have Marcus on the show and a lot of the seal community that have gone down there and
done iboga, ibogaine.
But for my community, there really isn't much discussion at all.
So to not only be able to recommend somewhere, but also have testimony from people that I
know personally now, I think it's so, so powerful and so important.
So I want to thank you firstly for, you know, starting the church, taking this on after
your experiences, you and your wife, but secondly, for being so generous and coming on the behind
the shield podcast today.
No, it's been an absolute pleasure having a conversation with you as always.
And we really appreciate your audience, you know, for, for affording us an opportunity
to share our message and our mission.