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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast as always.
My name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome back onto
the show, former SBS operator and co-founder of Through Dark, Anthony Stasz Staszekor.
So in this second conversation we discuss a host of topics from his experience both
personally and business wise through the pandemic, the Afghanistan withdrawal, extreme weather
clothing, jujitsu, reorg, 7X, his new book, The Hard Road Will Take You Home, SAS Who
Dares Wins and so much more.
Now before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment,
go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback, I do
love reading your feedback and leave a rating.
Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find.
Because this is a free library of over 850 episodes now, so all I ask in return is that
you help share these incredible men and women stories so I can get them to every single
person on planet earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I welcome back onto the podcast Stasz.
Enjoy.
Well Stasz, firstly I want to say thank you for coming on the Behind the Shield podcast
again.
We just met face to face finally in Dubai of all places, so we'll get into that.
But I also want to say thank you for your patience.
I can't get my camera to work every time you see me upside down.
So as we record this, you're doing this blindly to a blank screen right now.
And for those that do know you will actually attest that that is a blessing in disguise
for me that I don't have to stare at your beautiful face.
No, but I'll also start with some thank yous as well.
Thank you for getting me back on and allowing me to kind of platform to kind of tell my
story and the story of Through Dark and everything else.
And as you suggested, it was great to finally meet as well in person in Dubai recently.
So I'm excited to get stuck in, mate.
So when we recorded first, it was you and Louis came on together.
And just as you pointed out before we hit record, it was a while ago and it was actually
February 2020.
So for most people listening, that was quite a pivotal moment.
I'm pretty sure that we were maybe aware of it slightly, but not quite in it yet.
You had transitioned from the military.
Now you're an entrepreneur.
You know, walk me through what that looked like through your eyeballs specifically.
Yeah, I guess for people that for some context and a little bit of backstory.
So who am I?
You know, Anthony Stastazica.
I've served 13 years in the British military.
I spent my first three years in the Royal Marines.
I was a Royal Marine sniper.
And then for the last sort of 10 years of my military career, my more formative years
were spent in the UK Special Forces and very similar sort of timings to Louis as well.
And Louis is a very good friend of mine, Louis Tinsley.
He's also the co-founder of ThruDark, a technical outdoor clothing and apparel company, which
we both founded in 2018 when we left the military.
So between us combined sort of military services of about 26 years, both in the SPS Special
Forces and yeah, we've been kind of at this technical outdoor clothing market now for
the best part of five to six years.
So with that being said, that's leading us up to your transition out, which was the first
conversation.
You know, we had a great chat and you can let us through your military journey.
But now we're talking, you know, you, me and Louis, you've made this bold jump.
You've got this extreme weather clothing company and then the pandemic hits.
So as entrepreneurs and as, you know, boyfriends and parents and all these other things that
we become, what was that the impact of the pandemic for you personally?
Yeah, I mean, there's quite a bit to unpack there.
I guess, you know, if we sort of try and chop this down a little bit, so it's just for myself
really because I'm a simple person.
I guess when we left the military, you know, I guess it's especially from people with our
backgrounds and our skill sets, you know, our most likely kind of course is to move
into highly paid, good positions within security and close protection, which we did for a bit.
You know, we were working some very well sort of cherry pick jobs within the NFL and NBA
and doing the kind of super bowls and all this kind of stuff, which was great.
But, you know, our idea and our focus was all around ThruDark and the technical clothing
company.
So I guess when we left, we sort of pumped all of our kind of energy and effort and passion
and into ThruDark and into the business.
And then from there, you know, we're talking to 2017, 2018.
What starts out as a bit of an idea and a dream, I guess, very quickly starts to grow.
And I say quickly, these six years have, you know, been nothing but hard, hard yards and
hard grafts, you know, to kind of get into the position that we're at now.
But back in the day, it's no too dissimilar to any startup story, you know, in terms of
an idea is born and then you kind of put pen to paper, we go into the planning phase and
we kind of treated it like a bit of a military operation at the time, you know, whiteboard,
all that kind of stuff.
And yeah, we sort of just get going out of the out of the gates, you know, in 2018, 2019,
we're a couple of years in, you know, we do the podcast with yourself and it's gathering
momentum and traction across social media and website.
The business is doing okay.
You know, it seems to be working.
We're kind of out of the gate, but we're by no means kind of in sort of fresh, safe waters.
You know, there's still very, very turbulent time in terms of business and how long that
we've been operating.
And you still have that niggling, I still have it now, but you have that niggling sort
of thing in your mind about, you know, is it is the business going to work?
Does it work?
Is it going to last?
You know, is it a flash in the pan?
Is it something that's substantial that people are really resonating with?
And you know, we're just getting everything sorted from production and finding our feet
in the business world and everything else.
And we're about six people strong in terms of, you know, personnel at ThruDoc with a
few more people working downstairs that are sort of servicing the goods in and out.
And then, yeah, to your point, it was straight into a fucking pandemic, which was definitely
not on the on the whiteboard.
You know, we kind of like to think that we never leave a stone unturned and we're always
looking at options and what if and solutions and businesses like that, isn't it?
It's constantly, you know, you're constantly looking at solutions, you know, it's just
problems and problems and problems.
It's just solutions day in, day out.
And some days, you know, the problems are small and some days it's a combination of
small and big problems.
But the pandemic in particular was pretty monstrous in size and scale and in terms of
what it did not just to us as a business, but the whole fucking world.
And that affected us from the basic things as, you know, the majority of our products
at the time were made in Italy, you know, in Milan.
And that area got hit, you know, very, very, very, very hard.
So there was a moment where we were almost kind of running out of product, you know,
and if you haven't got a product to sell, you know, you don't have a business.
So that kind of seesaw was going back into the wrong direction.
And you know, we have all the stress and everything else that's going on around that as well in
terms of the business.
And it was such a crucial moment for us because, you know, we were gathering traction, we were
doing well, but at the same time, it was worrying and stressful because we, at the time as we
were going through that, we didn't know where the end goal was, you know, and that's fine.
You can plan and mitigate and think about everything else.
But when you don't know when something will end that could potentially, you know, finish
the business or at least put the business on ice, if it's not cashflow correctly, then
that is very, very worrying.
So yeah, the pandemic was a difficult time.
But that being said, James, we actually pivoted and worked quite well through that transitional
period.
It's probably more luck than judgment, but we just had a huge amount of stock land, you
know, we put a lot of cash and energy and effort into the growth of the business through
our, you know, our investors and everything else.
And we were in a good position going into the pandemic, well, as good as we could have
been at the time in terms of stock, you know, the website was still up and running, the
social media platforms were still up and running.
And the majority of our demographic were, you know, still working and being paid, but
had maybe potentially a little bit more free time and free cash.
And also we're now seeing the benefits of what the outdoors was doing for them, you
know, physically, but more importantly, mentally as well.
So a lot more people were kind of then made more aware of their physical fitness, you
know, really kind of highlighted people's health and the outdoors, you know, we couldn't
travel so more people were getting outdoors locally to themselves.
So, you know, we just pumped a little bit more sort of money into paid advertisement, etc,
etc.
And we're a little bit more loud and proud across social media platforms.
And actually we saw, you know, sales improving.
But then to my original point, we did have that moment of, you know, we can only sustain
this for so long before we get to the point of we have no stock, you know, so definitely
a very, very challenging period in through docs, through docs, sort of it is in the infancy
the first couple of years.
Were you hit on the fact that some people had the realization about their own health
and, you know, getting outside when it hit over here and I was very lucky, Florida was
very, I'd say sensible, it was the only word they took it very seriously at the beginning,
everyone kind of locked down.
But very soon after that, they started doing, you know, analysis literally week by week
and opening things back up again.
I think it was fantastic.
And you know, our deaths is as many retirees as we have, we're actually a lot lower than
some of the places that locked everyone down.
What was the message that you were getting in the UK?
Because for me, everything that we needed to improve our natural health in America was
kind of, it was the opposite.
They told people to stay indoors.
You know, the gyms were closed, the restaurants were closed and all the things that people
have, community, fitness, time in nature, outdoors, etc., were closed down, but you
could get fast food and alcohol delivered to your house.
So to me, that couldn't have been further from creating resilience in a population to
beat a virus.
With you specializing in, you know, in, like you said, outdoor clothing, extreme weather,
etc.
What was your lens on the wellness element of how it was handled?
I mean, it may be handled brilliantly from where you saw, but, you know, what was your
perspective?
That's a very good question, James.
And it's actually something I've not mentioned or spoke about in great detail, especially
not publicly.
So I'll probably get vilified because, and I want to precursor this before everybody
sort of jumps on the fucking bandwagon.
You know, I am not a virologist.
I'm not a fucking medical expert, etc., etc.
You know, I'm a former special forces operator.
You know, I only have my own experience and life experience to lean into.
I think initially it was worrying.
It was what is going on.
We were in that initial sort of understand phase of what is this?
And you know, the panic that ensued and the mainstream media were, as always, to blame
for a large majority of this.
But I'm kind of like you.
I'm quite sort of analytical and data driven in kind of my decisions with a little bit
of my own, tempered with a little bit of my own experience as well.
Now, because it was such a hot topic and it was so prevalent across everybody's kind of
lives at the time, I just spent hours and hours reading and digesting information on
podcasts.
And I was always quite aware or self-aware that the information I was receiving was nuanced.
So it wasn't just leaning one way or the other.
And I would also formulate my own opinions on the data or the information that I was
hearing or seeing, you know, and reading and listening as well.
You know, I think the worst thing that we, there's a lot of things now.
And listen, I also want to carry out this whole moan, I guess, that I'm about to do
with, you know, everything's always fucking easier looking back, isn't it, with hindsight.
You know, and you can say that about a lot of things that have happened in the past,
you know, from war to, you know, other issues that we've had across the world, across the
globe that have touched, you know, hundreds, thousands, millions of people.
But this was such a big deal, you know, I thought that it required investment from myself
personally to really understand what was going on, you know.
And there are so many things that were just ridiculous in terms of what they did, you
know, and especially now, you know, looking back, you know, a few years on, a couple of
years on, just to sort of, with everything that's coming out at the moment, and the
inquiries are currently going on at the moment in the UK as well, you know, but there is,
I think once you scratch the surface, and you know, I'm not a fucking tin hat wearing
conspiracy person by any stretch of the imagination, but, you know, let's be honest, a lot of these
things that were conspiracies have now turned out to actually not be conspiracy, you know,
and things that there's been a lot of truth that has come out as well in terms of, you
know, the vaccines and the application, but also mandating these things as well in terms
of who was to receive these and why.
And it caused a huge divide in the UK, you know, from, it was the vaccinated versus the
anti, you know, vaccines.
And listen, I'm not anti-vaccine.
I've got vaccinations.
I've had to have vaccinations throughout my whole life and military career anyway.
So but for me, the way that it was moving so quickly and where the evidence was pointing,
it just didn't make sense to me.
You know, I had COVID, I caught COVID and fortunately for me, you know, I had little
to no effect.
You know, I lost a bit of taste and smell, but I was actually running around the mountains
at the time up in Wales and I knew I had it.
I tested and I had lost my smell and taste, but I was actually fine, you know, in terms
of fitness.
Now I get it.
There's underlying health conditions and there's all these things that, you know, that affect
the way that people react to this.
But from what I was seeing, from my personal experience, the people that I could see within
my network that were getting COVID, that were affected by it, it didn't seem as bad as the
media were portraying.
And a lot of the things that we looked at, we knew the government were lying about certain
things, you know, and we also now understand and realize that there's bigger plays going
on in terms of the pharmaceutical industries and who owns and runs what and how it's connected
to everything else.
You know, so it's a very difficult, complex, new, like the whole topic and discussion,
you know, it's probably, but I'm also conscious that it does deserve this time.
I don't think we should be pushing it under the carpet and brushing it and, you know,
and then onto the next thing and onto, oh, it's Ukraine now and oh, it's Gaza and it's
move onto the next thing.
It's like, no, no, no, we still need to go back and address everything that happened.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but, you know, especially in the UK, they were mandating
vaccines for service personnel, for, you know, the NHS, so our National Health Service, doctors,
nurses, and it caused a lot of issues and upset between people that didn't necessarily
want the vaccine, but were voluntold to take it, you know, and the ramifications were,
if you didn't, that you would lose your job and then would be unable to support your family,
which is absolutely disgusting, you know, and I think now that we're in a position that
we can look back and the information and the evidence is coming out that, you know, it's
pretty damning, to be honest.
So that's probably as far as I'll go in terms of a rant and we can we can unpick certain
parts of that as well, you know, probably as we move on.
Yeah, well, I mean, thank you.
I agree completely when you said it needs to be revisited.
It's 100% people like, I don't want to talk about its politics.
It's like, no, that's not politics.
That's the health of the nation.
And now on the other end, this is what I've talked about since the beginning.
The reason there's three episodes a week is when we hit the pandemic and I was seeing
all the scaremongering, I'm like, all right, I'm going to put even more middle of the road,
you know, content that people can action, they can do in their own home, you know, fitness
and nutrition and mindfulness and all the other things that we talked about.
But if it had been about the health of the nation and we had a captive audience for two
years, Britain, Australia, the US, Canada, et cetera, et cetera, we'd all be healthier
than we were in 2020.
But obesity is getting worse.
Mental health is declining.
So you know, this is the thing.
And like you said, I just I just saw a L.A. firefighter just be terminated in December
2023 for not taking the vaccine back in whatever it was, 21, 22.
And we know now the efficacy was basically no better than the placebo.
Now I've had an E.R. friend of mine who talked about where some of the vaccines seem to be
helping people who are already very ill.
Excellent.
Great application.
So it's a symptom reducer, not a vaccine.
But to me, the conversation needs to happen because, for example, fire, police, military
are struggling to recruit now because our pool of fit candidates is getting smaller
and smaller and smaller.
So the health of the nation, the mental health of the nation, the security of the nation
are still things that we need to be discussing because it wasn't remedy during the pandemic.
Absolutely.
And I think that is the main point for me about this whole thing.
What did it highlight?
Mainly for me is is people's own physical and mental fitness and robustness, you know,
to help alleviate any stress and anxiety and worry, you know, and I think, again, when
you hear hoos, you know, think horses, not zebras and people say, well, it's OK for you
and you've not got this issue.
I'm not talking about those five percent, ten percent of the population that have genuine
underlying health and medical issues and conditions.
But there are a lot of people out there that are using that excuse that have no right to
use that excuse, you know, in terms of staying mentally and physically fit.
You know, and I take myself as an example here in training six, six, seven times a week
at times, you know, and keeping myself physically fit is not only a priority for me personally,
but also for my family.
You know, I mean, I'm a provider.
I need to stay physically fit.
I need to be the best version of myself.
And as you suggested earlier, the population, we've never been so unfit, obese and all of
these things.
And I think, again, correct me if I'm wrong, it was one of the biggest issues and precursors
to having worse conditions associated to Covid.
You know, the main effect that it had on people was the people that were overweight.
Now, if you're not in that small, you know, substructure of people, the five percent crew,
you know, OK, I get it.
But the others have absolutely no fucking excuse other than being lazy, you know, and
not being accountable for their own physical fitness, which I know it seems hard.
I know it seems harsh and a little bit too maybe almost draconian or military style.
But listen, there's days I don't want to get out of bed and fucking train in the morning
and go running and do jujitsu or go to the gym.
But I don't see it as a want.
It's a need.
You have to do that.
And I think for some reasons, you know, lots of different reasons and social media and
the ease now of everything else, our lives are just becoming too fucking comfortable
and too simple.
And I think it's a fucking tragedy.
And people need to wake up to that realization that it's not supposed to be easy.
You're not supposed to have food delivered to your fucking front door.
You're not supposed to sit still all day.
You're not supposed to, you know, sit behind the fucking computer screen playing games,
you know, get outside, challenge yourself and push yourself physically, because that's
the you know, eat the correct food, you know.
So that takes discipline and it takes, you know, consistency as well.
So those two things, you know, combined together, you know, will set you up for success.
And, you know, this isn't everybody.
I'm not fucking blanket throwing this on everybody.
There are people out there that are doing that and pursuing that life and obviously
reap the rewards and benefit for it.
So it's very difficult, you know.
And I understand those different kind of socio demographic issues and people in different
areas and everything else that don't have access to things, but, you know, there's always
always a way to get yourself away and get fit and get active and get moving.
You know, food's a difficult one sometimes, you know, depending on where you are and kind
of how much you earn, etc, etc.
So it needs to be looked at.
The government just throwing fucking millions and billions of pounds into a stupid NHS app
that didn't even work.
You know, let's look at different ways that we can we can apply that government funding,
you know, to help people.
Absolutely.
So I got a pretty unique perspective on the NHS, something that I've I love the NHS.
I think as a philosophy, it is beautiful.
But I watched it get torn apart by politicians, you know, the budget cuts and staffing cuts,
etc, etc.
And those poor doctors and nurses and, you know, custodians and everyone else that was
keeping the hospitals running, you know, we got outside and we they got outside and clapped
it, you know, what it was five, five p.m. and then went back inside, you know, it's
like, well, I didn't give them any more staffing or beds or PPE.
But I remember you talking about the scaremongering from the media, the more going there's people
in the hallways.
And I was like, as an American paramedic, this worked in most cities.
I'm like, we're always in the hallways.
There's never enough beds.
That's normal every day.
So then, you know, we watch the pandemic, you know, again, the the NHS are asked to
do more with less.
And then we come out the other end.
So again, you think in lessons learned, like after 9-11, there's a lot of money that went
into the military, into the first responders.
Well, my dad has a chest pain, 81 years old, gets taken to the hospital and the ambulance
crew have to sit outside with him for nine hours until they've got a bed for him.
And again, I mean, I'm watching the way this was done.
The system is just that system in that particular hospital is obviously very mismanaged by some
of the things that were going on.
It just didn't make any sense at all.
But again, this is the other side of the pandemic now.
So this is what happens in some of these hospitals.
But they were acting like normally you just walk in and everything's fine.
And now this COVID thing, there's bodies everywhere.
And so if we really again cared about health care, the NHS today would be staffed again
and funded.
But I mean, I'm not blaming any human.
The ambulance crews were great.
They actually had a shift change in the ambulance.
That's how long they were sitting in the parking lot.
But it's such an incredible system.
But again, if we care, that money should have gone into the actual NHS.
We shouldn't have a 99-year-old war veteran walking just to try and give those poor people
more money.
That's horrific, mate.
I completely agree with that as well.
It's almost about who's making the decisions about where the money goes as well.
We built this fucking huge nightingale hospital for an overspill of COVID patients that was
empty.
They didn't really get utilized.
Again, that was just millions of pounds, panic, thrown in.
And I mentioned earlier about the NHS app that didn't work.
Millions of pounds were wasted.
Think about supporting the people on the front line, the NHS workers, the doctors, the nurses.
There's certain people I think in society that need to be recognized for the great work
that they do.
And some of those people are the doctors and the nurses, people that are doing care for
the elderly.
And then you've got teachers as well that are ultimately impacting the next generation.
So these kind of jobs should be prestigious.
They are the prestigious jobs that have an impact on people when they need it most.
And for some reason as a society, they're not highlighted in that way.
And they're also not recognized in that way and or paid in the correct way as well.
I don't know.
It seems to make sense to me and it shouldn't be so hard to fix.
But clearly it is.
So when we first sat down, kind of shifting to a kind of more extreme fitness and mental
toughness, you were I think you had just been number five on the SAS Who Dares When Show
and you were the mole.
When we met in Dubai, you were on your way to do the show again.
So talk to me about the different role that you played in the show and what that experience
was like this time.
Yeah, it was probably the worst undercover mole in history.
I say that, so that was actually with Channel 4.
At the time, they asked me to come in to be one of the recruits.
So it's a 10 day course that they're filming.
And for the first six days, I was the mole undercover, acting as a recruit, gathering
intelligence for the DS, reporting back to those guys.
Now the viewers knew that I was the mole, etc, etc.
And then on day six, I was then kind of released or shown to others that actually I've been
undercover and I'm a DS and I moved into a director staff role and then did the celebrity
version after that.
That was great.
It was an amazing opportunity and learned a lot, enjoyed it, enjoyed the process, not
so much the recruit part.
It was for ThruDark in terms of marketing.
Channel was really good.
And then after that, it was all a success on the show and then left the show as the
chief constructor.
I left, I was sort of back to ThruDark, back to business as usual.
And then a year or two years later, I got a phone call from some of the people over
at Channel 7 for the SAS Australia version and had the call up to sort of see if I wanted
to join Anne and Ollie Ollerton and Jay Morton as the director staff on that show.
And that's obviously where I was actually transiting through Dubai to fly on to Jordan
before filming end of February, beginning of March.
And that was incredible as well.
Getting back in and working around the guys again was amazing because when you leave the
special forces and the military, you do miss the guys.
That's the biggest thing that you do miss, that camaraderie and that bond and being around
that energy constantly is something that I probably miss the most and that and obviously
some of the high up obtained jobs and everything else.
But to have that sort of small feeling again back in that environment was amazing.
Now did you work with Remy Adeleke and Rudy Reyes?
No, so those guys, I think when Ant left the Channel 4 bit and obviously continued with
the Australian version, those guys then moved into the UK version.
So that crossover for me personally never happened.
I've met Rudy, I've not met Remy.
I haven't met Remy.
So yeah, that was just kind of two different channels, two different programs essentially,
both sort of shooting very similar same sort of structured content in terms of SAS who
does wins.
It was interesting talking to Ricky Nuttall.
So he was one of the firefighters, the London firefighters that responded to the Grenfell
and yeah, they had a very, very powerful story really.
I think opened some doors when it came to be able to talk about mental health in the
British Fire Service at least.
But I know he was on the show and this would have been during COVID and he was talking
about the isolation that they had to have that whatever it was, 10 days in a hotel room,
that he was forced to be at lone with his thoughts.
And so the fire that burned in him to want to do the show by the time he actually got
in to do the show, he'd almost like healed.
Like that fire wasn't burning anymore.
So that was kind of his perspective of that one.
What were you seeing as far as backstories or common denominators between the recruits
that seemed like maybe on day one they were going to do well, maybe they were very athletic
or they had that thing about them and which humans actually were the ones that succeeded
at the end of it?
Yeah, that's a great question.
And with regards to Ricky as well in particular, I was a recruit with Ricky, we were on the
same show.
So I know exactly what he's talking about.
It was filmed up in the Irish sky up in Scotland, so the very northern kind of tip of Scotland.
So we're in the middle of nowhere and we have to go do a 10 day quarantine period.
We were obviously tested.
Looking back now, it's a joke, isn't it?
But we were tested kind of twice through that 10 day period to make sure that we were clear
and then we could go on to the filming.
And sort of everybody was in that bubble that was cleared and tested and we could then film
and crack on with the show.
Ricky was a funny one.
Obviously, I was doing the stuff as a recruit, so I was in the same hotel as them and we
were allowed out once a day to do physical exercise or twice a day.
You could have a walk or a run for an hour or something like that.
So we're sort of still getting out of the hills and mountains and running and keeping
physically fit and moving.
But yeah, to his point, for the most part, you were in your room on your own.
That being said, you had your phone, you could ring home and you're on social media and I
was just doing work and still speaking to the team back there and etc.
But I actually had every recruits report in front of me.
So I was just kind of reading up on each person individually, just getting the kind of backstory
and trying to understand them before I went into the show as them all to try and kind
of understand them more, but also have a point of contact that I could naturally sort of
segue into conversations, etc.
But Ricky, for me, had an amazing story.
You know, part of the Grenfell fires, a firefighter, clearly very physically fit.
I didn't realize what he was quite going through mentally at the time.
But when we started filming the show, for me, he was one of those guys, you know, he
had a great character, great personality.
He was clearly a leader, you know, and I saw him as one of the front runners.
I thought, you know, this guy's going to be up the front.
He's going to be finishing, you know, at the top, you know, bar some sort of injury or
illness that would take him out.
And how long I could have been, I didn't realize, but it makes sense now from what you've just
said that the reasons why he went on to the show and that isolation period, what it enabled
him to do in terms of his own healing and understanding.
So when it came to filming, he was kind of like, shit, I've got everything I came here
for personally.
And to carry on with the show is I'm doing it for the wrong reasons.
Now I'm not sure if I agree with that, you know, for me personally, and I do get it and
I understand it from his point of view.
And what's the point in carrying on if you feel like you've gained everything that you
wanted to achieve, everything you wanted to achieve pre going on the show.
But I just think he would have got even more from seeing the course through, you know,
you never know what else you're going to learn unless you keep going and walking and opening
those doors.
You know, to say that, you know, that's fine.
I've been locked up in a room for 10 days and wow, I've had an epiphany moment and that's
me.
I'm not so sure, you know, and I've told him about that as well, you know, to message him
after like, I just think that he could have gained more from carrying on and maybe seeing
that course through.
So I was a little bit disappointed with Ricky for pulling himself off so early on in the
course, because I just think he was strong.
He could have helped other people, you know, that were on the on the course as well.
So even if you are sort of feeling better yourself, then why not remain and help other
people out that aren't as physically strong or as mentally strong as you to try and coach
and help those people through.
So sometimes it's not always about us and about what we want.
You know, sometimes we're the servant as well.
And it's nice to sort of think, what can I do for other people?
Now, I'm not and I feel quite bad saying that it's like I'm sort of cursing Ricky and his
decisions, but clearly, you know, yeah, other things going on in his head at the times.
And I've got massive respect for him, even in the first instance, as I have anybody that
goes on to that show, anybody that, you know, steps into the arena into that world.
It's very daunting.
It's unfamiliar.
It's very challenging physically and mentally.
But I just think, you know, for me personally, I would have just kept going and I would have
saw that course through just to sort of find out more about myself, you know, and that's
what the course is designed to do.
And everybody, back to your original question, everybody's on there for different reasons.
And everybody has different stories.
And don't get me wrong, it's a fucking TV program, isn't it, James?
And they want to they want to play onto those angles and stories and backstories that people
have in it.
And it almost connects the audience to the show and to the people.
And it's designed specifically in that way, which I get.
But yeah, I just think I was just gutted, if I'm honest, personally, that Ricky sort
of decided to leave so early on in the show.
I love what you said about if you're doing well, then be there for others, because I
think that really ties into the mental health conversation.
I literally was talking to Tip Cullen yesterday.
I don't know if you cross paths with Tip.
And he, you know, one of his things is like, up to this point, he he hasn't found himself
in a dark place, you know, really dark place.
And I've said the same thing.
And when I look back, you know, there is a spectrum of healthy coping mechanisms that
were infused into my childhood just by accident.
So I am no better or no worse than anyone else who has struggled more, struggled less.
It's just, you know, as many traumas as I have when I was young.
I grew up on a farm.
My dad was a vet.
So he's healing animals.
You know, there was nature and sunshine and, you know, cold and suffering and all the things
that factor into to hopefully forging resilience.
But so if you're doing well, then it's up to you to then help other people and raise
them up.
So of course, like you said, at that moment, with Ricky and his decision, I probably wasn't
factoring in.
But the number of people that I know that have really succeeded, and I would say myself
included, I think what got me through fire academies was trying to help the people that
were struggling that really want to do it, not the ones that weren't trying.
I mean, fuck those guys, they can, they can quit.
But the people that really, really were trying and just needed a little extra help, I would
focus on being there for them.
So I love I love what you said, because I think that applies to mental health.
It applies to, you know, selection and boot camp and fire academy, all those other things.
If you're doing okay, then fucking find someone else to help.
Yeah, absolutely.
And just to reiterate that point, you know, UK Special Forces selection is probably the
hardest job interview in the world, isn't it?
But there are no, listen, that is the most physically, mentally exhausting process that
I've ever been through in my life, you know, probably now going into business more mentally
as well, but certainly physically, you know, you, you push yourself, you know, far and
beyond what you ever thought you were capable of achieving.
And there are moments, you know, I just remember thinking about now, it sort of almost makes
me shudder in the jungle where you are on the ebbs of sort of existing, you're just
some days you are just existing and you can't think further than 10 seconds ahead, you know,
and, and you just have, and everybody has a bad day, you know, which can turn into a
bad week.
And on those moments in selection, that's where you really find out who the right people
are, you know, and it's a massive part of it, isn't it?
For the Hills phase, it's more, you know, you're on your own, it's the physical navigating
with heavy packs on your back from point A to point B. Are you physically and mentally
robust enough to kind of pass that phase, you know, at the required standards with the
weight and the times, that's then kind of your ticket then into the jungle, you move
into the jungle, then you're in a four man patrol.
And during that period, that's what they're really looking at.
It's like, yes, look, you've proved that you are physically fit and mentally robust,
but now this is a different operating environment, but also can you soldier to a very high standard
within the jungle?
It's a very difficult environment to operate and soldier in.
But also, how do you react when you're absolutely at the end, you know, at the end of your teller,
you're so fatigued and tired and malnourished and have no sleep.
But who are you as a person?
It really fucking scratches or it makes you remove those masks so that all that's left
is a true reflection or version of you as a person.
And that's when you see who people are.
And that's what I'm trying to get out here, you know, to that point is to say that when
I was absolutely fucked, I could still turn around and smile at my own sort of misery,
but also try and help people when I was having a good day, you know, a couple of days, you'd
feel a bit stronger or, you know, you're in a good place, you've had a good couple of
days that then compound, you think, shit, I'm doing all right here, I kind of turned
a page.
And now it's, you know, it's all about self-preservation.
But at the same time, if you can help somebody that you feel is deserving of help, you know,
then absolutely, you get a good feeling from that as well.
And it's well received.
And then when you need the help, it then gets reciprocated and comes back around full circle.
So I do think there's a lot, there's a lot in that.
And I sort of hope that I continue to carry that on through my military career, and then
also now into business and in my personal life as well.
Well, speaking of suffering, in February, you and I met in Dubai in a Brazilian steakhouse,
I think it was.
And that was part of 7X.
I know that I connected you with Ryan, both of you incredible human beings, you donated
a lot of gear, which is actually going to get worn this February.
I'm not going with them because I owe my son some parent time.
So we won't be, I won't be there actually at Antarctica when they do that final run.
But you know, as we sit here now, as I showed you, I'm wearing a through dark sweatshirt.
So talk to me about that relationship and what 7X was like for you from the outside
looking in.
Yeah, I get, well, geez, before that, you played a right blinder there, James Pickett.
Oh, sorry, guys, I can't make the Antarctica one.
I see what you're...
I like your style, mate.
Yeah, I can't do the freezing cold one, but I'll do the Dubai version.
They said they don't need, they're almost spinning in there because they said that they
owed it to us.
And I'm like, you don't owe me anything.
It's more, it's more the fact that to get there, it's going to take multiple days before
multiple days after and, you know, for I think it was four hours on the ice.
So the athletes will do, you know, they'll do the skydives, they'll do the runs, but
the rest of us, it was like a tourist excursion.
And I'm like, I think I think my son would probably prefer I spend a week with him and
five hours on the ice.
Yeah, good, good call, mate.
So yeah, 7X and again, thank you for that introduction there.
I love these kinds of things, these little links and networks and door opening for people
and these opportunities.
I'm a massive fan of this and, you know, Ryan, you know, Birdman, what an incredible human,
you know, and a person that I've kind of gotten to know and again over the last couple
of years and stay in touch with and everything that he's doing there with the 7X and raising
awareness and the charities and everything else is just phenomenal, you know.
So immediately when that connection was made for myself and Louis and Trudark, it just
seemed so natural and authentic and credible for us to get involved with, you know, where
we could.
And for us, it was, it was the clothing element.
So obviously we're a technical outdoor clothing brand.
So when the kind of project was put forward to us, it was like, wow, how can we support,
you know, how, where and when and to what degree can we support this incredible project?
And that was amazing for us to kind of go through that process as well and really understand
where you were going, what you were doing and kind of where we could hopefully just
add a little bit of value and alleviate as much kind of stress and pressure for the guys
in terms of the technical kit and equipment that they were wearing on task.
Yeah, well, I can tell you people absolutely loved it.
And I think they're going to get the most value obviously when they, when they go to
Antarctica with it being the cold weather gear.
One of the things that you also donated was the gi, your latest Trudark gi.
On the recce for the trip, so it would have been September of 2022, I went down to Plymouth
and hung out with Sam and Ben in the Trudark, you know, HQ down there, rolled and I say
rolled, I got murdered by him and junior, but it was phenomenal.
So talk to me about that relationship.
Yeah, so Sam is a former Royal Marine.
I think he did 22, 23 years.
He was a physical training instructor within the Royal Marines.
So the guys that used to run around in the tight shorts and the vests screaming at everybody
to run faster.
Actually when I joined the Marines, that's what I wanted to do.
I joined with the intention of becoming a physical training instructor, but then my
sort of career changed.
I've become a sniper and I went into special forces.
But yeah, Sam was an incredible person as well.
You know, everything he's done, you know, just as he was kind of transitioning out,
he was actually one of the first people to really start the ball rolling or at least
plant the seed from the Royal Marines perspective for Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.
And he was training while he was in, really kind of being an advocate and sort of flying
that flag.
And then when he left, he set up a charity called Reorg.
Now Reorg help veterans, military, but also first responders in the UK.
And that has just blown up and gone huge.
And I've used it in LinkedIn through Sam to other people that have been having issues
and struggles from the military and police that I've known that I've put them in contact
to local affiliated Brazilian Jiu Jitsu academies through Sam.
You know, so it really does work.
And it has a, you can see the benefit of it.
So it's not like a charity and that like, it's kind of here's a load of money to a charity
that you kind of don't really sort of feel that you don't get to see what that result
is.
And Jiu Jitsu is completely different, you know, and with that, while we were talking
through stuff, you know, at the time when I left the special forces and set up through
dark, I was still continuing to train physically training, so running and the gym and everything
else, because it was obviously an integral part of my life and will be till I, till the
day I fucking, I can no longer let my arms or my legs fall off.
But it really helped me massively mentally with the stress and everything of leaving
work because for context, when I left the military, it fucking hell, I was spinning
some serious plates.
I was going through a divorce with my, you know, my wife at the time and my eldest boy,
you know, this we've been together a long time, 13 years, and we were just completely
different.
We were married, that relationship broke down, unfortunately.
And you know, we look at it, it's the precursors of being in the military and everything else,
we just completely changed.
We got together really young and we were just completely different people.
So I was going through that I was trying to leave the military, trying to set up a new
business and a company, I was going for a financial settlement with her, which was just
I was stressed up to the eyeballs.
And you know, all this kind of anxiety and worry and stress and pressure of all these
things compounded, it was just felt like I was, I was spinning multiple plates.
And for me, it came at the exact right time that I needed Jiu-Jitsu, I needed something
that I could focus my energy and efforts into that wasn't just physical, but more mental.
And Jiu-Jitsu is like that for anybody that does Jiu-Jitsu, you know that you get elements
of that flow state again, where, you know, I don't meditate, I tried, but I was terrible.
To be honest, I probably just didn't give it enough time.
But for me, Jiu-Jitsu was like the meditation part, it was when you're on task, that's all
you think about.
And, you know, and then again, to your point, when you start, it's you're just surviving.
So those kind of white belt periods, and I mentioned this in my book as well about that
white belt, belt mentality and why it's so important.
But Sam, it came down to through dark and was like, look, why don't you try Jiu-Jitsu?
And for me, I was like, gee, Sam, I'd love to, but I just don't think I can my fucking
body, you know, at the time, a few years ago, I was turning 14 in January, about 36, 37,
and I was like, mate, my knees are fucked, you know, I've had operations.
My back, I was blown up in Afghanistan in a vehicle, an IED, you know, which compressed
my spine and I've had like bulging discs and herniated discs.
And I was like, I just, I just don't think my body could do it.
And he's like, well, why don't you just try it?
See how much you can do, see what you can and can't do.
You'll kind of adapt and your own style and your own game around what your body can physically
do.
So we did.
And then yeah, experience probably all of the same things that you experienced when
you came in the first road and I think it affects people in like one of two ways.
You either go, wow, what the fuck just happened?
What was that?
I don't want anything to do with that.
And you run away or you go, wow, what the fuck was that?
I need to learn that.
And thankfully for me, it was, it was the, it was the more former and it was like, shit,
I've boxed, I've kickboxed, you know, I, I've done all this stuff in the military from an
armed combat sort of stuff.
And, and it just intrigued me massively.
I was like, shit, I need to learn that.
And actually my body, yeah, it felt like I'd been in a car crash or, you know, for the
first kind of six months.
And I sort of pushed and progressed through that, but I'm so glad that I've kind of stuck
that out and I've got a massive amount of respect and, and thank yous to, to people
like Sam and Mark Ormrod and all these other people that have really helped push Jiu-Jitsu,
but also the real main mission as well to help other people.
So, and I've seen that effect that it's had now with training and something that we offer
at 3DARC for all the staff to train, but also other people coming in and training as well.
And, you know, Nathan, our instructor as well, and that kind of positive impact it's had.
So yeah, Jiu-Jitsu and Sam and Re-Org have been an incredible part of that.
But, you know, back to your original point again is the gi, you know, so you, you came
down and I think managed to get one of our gi's.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I was just laughing as well to myself thinking, you know, anyone that goes into
to Re-Org where Mark is there and say, oh, you know, I'm worried about my back.
And then you look over and Mark's, you know, triple amputee.
He's like, I'm sorry, what were you saying, little bitch?
I didn't quite hear it.
Yeah, cry me a river.
Cry me a river.
Well, that's perspective though, isn't it?
Again, it's days when I think, fuck, I feel tired today.
I'm not sure if I can trail that little inner bitch that just speaks to you.
And then, and then, yeah, you see Mark post up on Instagram that he's just already crushed
two workouts in a day and you think, fuck, you know, yeah, I'll get back to it.
Yeah, exactly.
Sorry.
Well, speaking of the gi, one funny story before I want to get to the book next.
The gi that you gave us, we had all seven flags of the countries that we were going
to be in, sewn onto the gi.
You know, we had these big mats that were going and we didn't, I didn't think we realized
that every time we got to a country, your, there was some craziness where you had to
like pull off a lot of your luggage and then keep it somewhere and then put it back on
that night, even though you had chartered your own plane.
It was really weird.
So we had a big jujitsu mat, but it was so big that, you know, they just tried to leave
it on the plane as much as we could.
But we get to Cairo and the morning we have this beautiful breakfast right by the pyramids.
Then we skydive out of a Russian helicopter, land right next to the pyramids.
Like a dream fricking thing for any, anyone, especially, you know, quote unquote alpha
male.
I mean, that's, that's pretty bad ass.
And Bryce said, Hey, let's try and, let's try and roll in every continent.
We hadn't up to this point and we're like, okay, well he pulled them out.
He goes, we're going to do it in front of the pyramids.
And when I say in front, it's not like where all the tourists are.
It's quite a ways away where the landing zone is for the skydivers.
Anyway, we get out of the mat and he said that, you know, he'd asked someone, they're
like, okay, and we just about to roll and the world loses their fucking mind.
And we're like, what the hell is going on?
Well, I don't think it mattered that we had the Egyptian flag on.
It was the other country's flags on the Ghee.
They took huge offense to it to the point where we're like, Oh shit, hold away.
We went and changed out of it again and you know, kind of de-escalated.
But yeah, I mean, it was, it was funny.
So the Ghee itself was amazing, but the end, we ended up going back to Dallas and then doing
our biggest role then because, you know, after Egypt, we were like, all right, fuck this.
We don't know how offended people are going to get.
But yeah, but Egypt's is on there.
Like it was just a proud, this is the journey that, but yeah, they, they were not happy
at all.
So what you're saying is don't go back to Egypt with the Ghee that you presented me
with all the flags on or I'm going to get strung up.
Yeah.
Yes.
I would say, yeah.
Yeah.
Leave the Egyptian one if you want, but take the others off.
Yeah.
Thank you, mate.
So you talked about the book.
I know it's out in the UK now.
It's going to come out here on February 6th.
So what made you write the book and then kind of lead us through what people are going to
find between the covers?
God, yeah.
So the book, yeah, the hard road will take you home.
It's the title of the book.
You know, it's a strange one, isn't it?
When you leave our kind of shadowy world of special forces and you kind of stick your
head above the parapet, you know, we, when we first started through dark, we were very
conscious of what our kind of online profile was.
And you kind of go through this transition of what we will just stay behind, you know,
in the shadows and blur our faces.
And then it got to a point about two years in when it was like, look, we are the brand,
you know, this is our background.
Like at some point, it feels like you're coming out of the closet.
We're going to have to kind of show people kind of who we are.
And we made that decision.
It's a difficult decision as well for people of our background and not a decision you take
lightly.
So, you know, that kind of happened naturally through the kind of social media and the website
and bits and pieces.
You know, then you make the next sort of big bold decision to then go on TV.
And then it's kind of on my head's fully above the parapet now.
And then I guess for the most part, you're just worried about what other people will
think, which is a real shame, isn't it?
When you break that down.
But I guess it's not worrying about what everybody else thinks.
And I think we are right to worry if it's a trusted opinion and people that you respect
and you know, and people in the special forces are people that, you know, for the most part,
I respect.
So hence why we were so sort of tentative in our approach in terms of what we did and
how we did it.
And you know, so going on the TV, we're now sort of six years in the through dark, we're
all over kind of social media.
What me?
I'm saying me as well.
And it then got, you know, I was then approached and was for the agency and other people about
what about writing a book?
And at the time it was like, I'm not so sure, you know.
But look, for me, I guess we'll start with, you know, it's a very long winded way of answering
your question, but I just want to give context.
And I think let's start with the why.
Why did I want to write a book?
Well, for me, when I was, you know, before I joined the military, I had quite a promising
football or soccer career that was lining up.
I was playing for England Schoolboys, affiliated with professional football clubs.
You know, I also used to race motocross, had a pretty bad injury.
I had rehabilitation on my knee, first came back, knee went again.
And my kind of dreams and hopes and aspirations of being a professional footballer, you know,
kind of ended.
I then went to college, I started playing for British colleges, representing the whole
British colleges, and I then got offered a scholarship to play in the United States,
University of South Carolina.
That didn't work out because they deemed me to be a professional.
I filled out some amateur eligibility forms incorrectly.
So I'm now kind of 17, 18, finishing college, I'm thinking, fuck, you know, now what?
I kind of put all my eggs into that basket.
I didn't kind of have a plan B. So I started looking at things that I liked to do.
I started working in a local gym.
So I now become a gym instructor, a personal trainer.
I do this for a couple of years.
And look, I wasn't that academic at school, you know, I enjoyed school for the social
aspects and for playing football.
So you know, all the kind of books and literature that I was reading at school was always pressed
upon me to read and not something that I wanted necessarily to read.
It didn't appeal to me.
So when I was in the gym, I started reading, but things that interested me and I should
get a little bit more mature, you start reading.
And to me, it was all kind of military, military history.
And the special forces books in particular, and the Andy MacLeod books really, really
spiked my interest in that world and the military.
You know, I then go on to join the Marines and special forces.
And looking back, that was probably kind of a big precursor for me in terms of joining
the military and then special forces.
So that was a kind of why.
So why would you write a book?
Well, actually books inspired me to join the military and then further my career within
special forces.
You know, and I enjoyed those those kind of books.
But for me, I wanted to do something slightly different with my book.
I wanted it to be not just be an autobiography and stories about things that I'd done within
the military or necessarily be a mindset, leadership, resilience, positive kind of book,
because those books have been done, you know, and done very well by my counterparts, you
know, and Middleton and Foxy and Ollie and Billy, all the guys have kind of owned that
kind of field and done a great job.
So what was different about about the book, I thought, was, well, how how can we sort
of value add for other people that potentially leave the military like I did and go, well,
now what what the fuck can I do?
And at the time, you know, you've actually acquired a lot of skills while you've been
in these kind of positions and, you know, and in public service and fire and police
and military as well.
You actually acquire a lot of skills that are applicable to business.
And for me, it was about, well, how can I capture this and intertwine my story throughout
the whole book in terms of helping people?
And that's, that's the basis of the book, The Hard Road Will Take You Home.
It's kind of what the military elite teaches about endeavor and kind of next level success
and how we can apply that.
And it kind of broken down through four chapters.
It's kind of, you know, the battle prep phase, okay, that in terms of that's a militarism,
isn't it?
Battle prep before we go on to a mission, you know, we break a mission down.
And how do we prepare and set ourselves up to success for that?
And that's what I was trying to say.
Within each chapter, I then kind of give a military example, a personal example, and
then a business example, and kind of then sort of end the chapter with kind of a debrief
and action points as well at the end.
So you know, as we look, you know, for me, that's, that was the whole premise of the
book.
How can I kind of impart the things that I've learned and that I feel are actually applicable
to not just business and the military, but also to your personal life as well.
So for the most part, you know, I think we've done a pretty good job up until this point,
and it's different as well.
So yeah, it was released in the UK on the on the 2nd of November, it's going really
well and a massive thank you to everybody who supported as well.
I had the same.
And again, I can't claim claim everything for myself.
I'm certainly not an author.
I can't claim that I sat down and locked myself in a room for four days and wrote this book.
I had a huge amount of help from my ghostwriter, Matt Allen, who's incredible, you know, the
amount of hours that we spent, you know, like this over the over the phone or via a zoom
link and just talking about him sort of extracting information from me and stories and everything
else.
And, you know, he was a ghostwriter for Foxy and for NIMS and for other people as well
at Usain Bolt, bits and pieces.
I knew I was in good hands.
It's then just trying to make it all make sense and come together.
And for the most part, we've done a pretty good job of that.
So yeah, the book, The Hard Road will take you home is, as you suggest, it's available
in the US as well.
But I'm hoping it just provides more than just a military kind of touch and feel in
terms of how people can apply the things that I've learned and lessons through life and
business as well.
The term quiet professionals, I think, is a great term, but sometimes you can be too
quiet and do a disservice to your profession.
And the perfect example is the American Fire Service.
And people in 2023 will say, why is there a fire engine on my medical call?
You know, or I mean, just a number of things.
You know, what are we buying you?
And they see us in the store.
What are we buying you thinking our tax their tax money is going to to our food?
You know, so I think it's important for professions to tell their stories.
And like you said, not all the stories.
I mean, it's funny because the classified stuff is almost irrelevant.
The average person doesn't need to know which mountain you are on, who you were chasing.
You know, it's the human experience.
So I think you can do that without, you know, giving away things that shouldn't be given
away.
But also the other thing where our careers are professions parallel is, as you said,
that transition out.
It's amazing how many police officers go into security, how many firefighters just go to
a paramedic college or a fire college and just teach how many special operations, special
forces fires, then go into contracting or, you know, close protection.
But just like you touched on, I'm really excited to read the book.
We don't realize, you know, the actual soft skills, hard skills that we got can be applied
in a thousand ways.
And the real common denominator that I've found from people that transition from our
professions into, you know, what's next, is trying to find a way of giving back.
Now, you know, you could argue that security is giving back, you know, if you're at the
front of a store or something, but you can take that skill set that you have and do something
incredible in the world.
You're just not wearing a uniform anymore.
Your service doesn't end.
And I find that the catharsis, the people that transition healthily, they would, their
service burns in their heart.
So if they can find a way of giving back with that skill set, doesn't necessarily have to
exactly match what they did in uniform.
That seems to be the superpower for the military veteran or the first responder.
I think so.
And you can do that through multiple ways as well, especially now with access to information
and through dark as well.
And, you know, as we looked at this as me and Louis set up the business, it was all
about who do we want to be?
What's the mission?
What's the message?
And it was, you know, our straplines endeavor through adversity.
It was all about being an aspirational brand, aspiring and inspiring people to get outside,
to push themselves physically and mentally, to become the best version of themselves so
that, you know, look, it's cliched, isn't it?
If you look after yourself, first and foremost, you get yourself physically fit and mentally
fit and resilient and robust, you have then have such a positive impact on everybody in
your life and all the people that you touch.
You know, it's, it seems obvious, but, you know, for the most part, you know, books do
this as well, you know, and they help people.
And not everything, not every part of the book will talk to people in perhaps the way
that you hope or think that it will.
But if people can take one or two things from these books and through social media and through,
you know, inspiring people through a workout and things, because I do it, I look at, you
know, Instagram and I just follow the things that are positive and that I like and, you
know, and just eradicate anything that's bullshit and negative and not serving you, then I get
inspired by other people that I follow.
You know, if I'm having a bad day or I don't feel like training, I see something on my
shit.
Yeah.
You know, like you're more my comrade and people, I just think, shit, like that just
inspires me to get out and motivates me.
And there's little things from books that I still remember now and everything else.
So yeah, it's, it was a nostalgic sort of process to write the book and I actually quite
enjoyed it.
But, you know, it was the best part of 16 to 18 months, you know, getting this book
through, rightly so, through the security cell and disclosure to make sure that there
wasn't anything in there that was, you know, putting anybody that is currently still serving,
you know, in any jeopardy or releasing anything or information that wasn't, you know, that
shouldn't have been released.
So, you know, finally we got it over the line and we are where we are.
So yeah, I'm excited to sort of see how it goes and I'm excited to hear your feedback
as well, James.
Absolutely.
Well, I want to hit one more area and then go to some closing questions.
Again, when we spoke last time, the US was still in Afghanistan.
Then since we had the withdrawal, a lot of people had on the show that are Afghan themselves,
you know, in Afghanistan and obviously a lot of veterans that had a pretty jarring impact
to a lot of people that, you know, lost brothers and sisters over there, lost limbs, lost their
mental health.
I mean, there's a lot of cost, a huge cost, obviously, and then the families as well.
What was your perception and your kind of, you know, your friend's circles perception
of that?
Well, rather than me giving my friends sort of perception, I'd rather just give my kind
of take on it and for what it's worth.
I think, you know, since 2008 to probably 2014, you know, I had five operational tours
in Afghanistan.
So, you know, I had some skin in the game, lost friends as well and fellow operators,
you know, on tours and saw some pretty horrific things.
You know, I saw the worst in humanity, but I don't look at it like that.
I also saw some of the very best in people in humanity as well in terms of service and
helping the people.
I can't stand here today and say that it was all for nothing.
I don't believe that and I don't buy into that narrative.
You know, the job and the role that we were doing at that time was absolutely required
and needed.
And look at all the positives that it did have in terms of you can only help someone
and some people, you know, to the best of your ability with everything you know and
have at your disposal at that time, you know.
And it's like, you know, in its simplest, you know, kind of form, if you break this
down, it's, you know, you can run across and see a mug in somewhere or something that's
not right.
And if you break this down, it wasn't right.
It needed help and it needed support and, you know, across a wide spectrum from government
to, you know, policing to military to education, you know, all these kinds of touch points,
which we went in there with the right intentions and also to eradicate, you know, an oppressive
regime in terms of the Taliban.
And you know, for the most part, I feel like we did that and it was mission success.
Listen, at the end, when, you know, the way that, you know, the forces and the military
withdrew, I just really kind of, I feel like we let them down, you know, but also ourselves
in terms of all the energy and efforts and the blood, the sweat, the tears and everything
else that went into that place, you know.
And I do think we had a net positive effect, but, you know, I think it's, we shouldn't
look at it now and say, well, it's back to how it was, you know.
I don't think it is back to how it was, you know, certainly in terms of how it's ruled,
but in terms of who is, you know, controlling those provinces and et cetera.
But, you know, I think it did have a positive effect for the most part on other people and
at least gave people hope.
What's the main thing that people need and want in life and it's fucking hope, you know.
And I think we enabled for the most part, people to have hope and open their eyes to
a different way of living and operating throughout their daily lives.
And, you know, it's fucking horrendous, isn't it?
The best part of 20 years, you know, and how much money and everything else that went into
that place.
It's, I try and always look for the positives in everything.
And it's not because I'm blinded or anything else like that, but I just, I do generally
feel like we were in there for the right reasons, you know, and doing the best that we could
do and everybody else as well and our partners and Five Eye Nations as well.
So it was a real shame to see how it ended and kind of how we kind of withdrew out of
there.
I think we just let them down, let the people down and for some part let ourselves down
as well.
Yeah, well, thank you because it's your voices that we need to hear.
You were the people that were there.
And the question I normally ask, you know, when we're talking about combat, I think I
asked you in the first one, you know, was what was some of the things that you witnessed
as far as the horrors that were happening to the native people that you were there to
take care of?
So that was been a part of the job.
And the other side of the question was the kindness and compassion, which you touched
on again, you know, the beautiful people that you were there to protect and you were serving
alongside.
So I heard so many stories of differences that were made.
But then, you know, if I've had people, you know, as you said, it shook them because they
gave everything to protect those people.
And then the way that we were withdrawn and then the Afghan people now, I mean, they're
in the middle of a winter, they're starving, they're freezing to death.
I mean, and then you have the Taliban as well.
So again, like the COVID conversation, now we have an opportunity to assess and be like,
if we could do it again, how would we do it differently?
And it seems like a lot of your community, American, Australian, UK, there seems to be
a kind of agreement that if we'd gone in more with focusing on your community, go in there,
take out the targets that need to be taken out, shut down the training camps and then
get out again, that it would have, you know, would have not seemed like an occupation and
create more enemies, etc, etc.
So for you personally, you're king for a day, you get to strategize how we would do it.
What would you have done differently?
Oh, geez, I think that's such a difference.
You know, and even if you're king, you'd need to be king for longer than a day and you'd
need more than a magic wand.
I feel, you know, it's so complex.
And this is the reason, you know, you can't fix something like this.
And I spoke about it early.
Foxy was in the gym earlier.
We were training and we were talking about, you know, Gaza and all the kind of fucking
atrocities and everything else that's happening there.
But it's not just this, wherever the fucking media tend to shine their gaze.
You know, if you look at the Congo as well and everywhere else in Yemen and all these
fucking places where there's just a madness, the world is a madness and you cannot beat
an ideology.
You can't beat a religion.
You know, you just can't.
And trying to come in and add your values or impart and impose your value systems onto
other people.
It doesn't work.
And I think that's what we tried to do.
And for the most part, we did it with the right intention, you know, and intentions
everything, isn't it?
You know, and but I think even if you're working for a day, you'd hope for peace, wouldn't
you?
You'd just say, you know, forget all this other stuff.
And you know, your imaginary person is better than my imaginary person, you know, and everything
else.
What's wrong with just being a good person?
But unfortunately, the world is not full of good people.
There are bad people in the world that want to do harm to good people.
And thankfully, there are people that are willing to step up to the plate and protect
the people that are innocent or can't protect themselves.
And that's what it comes down to.
Ultimately, there are people that are damaged, that are that are that are evil.
You know, someone's definition of evil is different to somebody else's.
And then, you know, where do you step in?
You know, you can and it's simplest for me, look at a playground fight between kids.
And when does it become not a fair fight anymore?
You know, in terms of how many people are involved, is the kid bigger, older, stronger?
When do you step in?
When's the right time to step in?
Who makes that decision?
Who makes that call?
But ultimately, you could just shake the kids fighting and just say, just get along and
be nice.
Isn't that wouldn't that be a great thing?
But listen, I'm a realist and that is not how the world is shaped up.
Beautiful.
Well, again, thank you for your perspective.
So last question before we make sure everyone knows where to find ThruDark and you online.
What's next for ThruDark?
You know, you had this amazing cold weather line, Nims Ward and some of his expeditions.
You know, what are you projecting to be exciting products to look for growth, etc. in the next
five or 10 years?
Yeah.
So, I mean, I can take over the world, James, you know, I think for us, you know, six years
in now, we're in such an incredible position.
And, you know, as the business grows, we get access to better people.
So you know, what is the definitive thing that has made ThruDark a success is the people
the people that we have involved with ThruDark that are working with us to ultimately push
and drive ThruDark to success.
And, you know, we're about 40 staff strong now.
I spoke earlier about me and Luis spinning plates on our own.
But now we're in a good position where we have, you know, the team is growing and we've
got incredibly gifted people within the business across brand and products and, you know, the
people, product and process and everything else.
And the wave is growing.
It's getting bigger and bigger and bigger.
And, you know, we're excited to see where this takes us, you know, but we want to take
it all the way.
We want to be recognized as the most technical, most authentic, incredible outdoor clothing
brand in the world.
For us in terms of where we wanted to be, you know, we're authentic.
We design, develop and test the kit ourselves, myself and Luis.
But as the team grows, you know, we get access to better fabric mills, better factories and
everybody else as well.
So the company is moving in a fantastic kind of trajectory at the moment.
And we're excited to see where the future takes us.
You know, we've got ideas, we've just released a Ghost Range, which is for exclusively available
to the military and police as well.
So we've got those kind of avenues working on at the moment and more kind of investment
from other people, the company's growing people.
Everything's improving.
So I'm really excited.
You know, we're in this for the long haul.
You know, we've got a sort of five to 10 year vision and goal of kind of where we want to
be.
You know, America is probably the next one, isn't it, after the UK and Europe and everything
else and then into Asia and everything else.
So we're excited, excited to see where we can take this and support more people and
more endeavors as well.
So where are the best places to find ThruDark online?
And then what about yourself on social media?
Yeah, so ThruDark online, it is just Google search, it's www.thrudark.com.
We ship as well internationally and across our social media platforms is ThruDark, again,
T-H-R-U-D-A-R-K.
For mine personally, it's Stas ThruDark, S-T-A-Z-T-H-R-U-D-A-R-K, Stas ThruDark, and Louis as well as Louis
ThruDark.
But it's the usual social media platforms.
But be careful, once you click on any ThruDark ad, our wizards and backend geeks will be
attacking you with all the usual spam and adverts and everything else, which I make
no apologies.
So yeah, it's just the websites and bits and pieces, mate.
But yeah, thank you.
Beautiful, mate.
Well, again, I want to thank you so much.
I mean, it was a great conversation with you and Louis.
And like I said, if anyone wants to listen to that, it was episode 283.
This one has been a great, you know, great catch up.
I mean, obviously, we got to break bread in Dubai, and here we are now having this conversation.
But I'm excited post pandemic, you know, as people are starting to ramp up and hopefully
the understanding of a little suffering in our lives, exercise, daylight, community that
aligns perfectly with what you're doing.
So I want to thank you so much for taking your time and coming back on the Behind the
Shield podcast today.
Thank you, mate.
I appreciate it.