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I'm extremely excited to announce a brand new sponsor for the Behind the Shield podcast

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that is Transcend.

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Now for many of you listening, you are probably working the same brutal shifts that I did

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for 14 years.

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Suffering from sleep deprivation, body composition challenges, mental health challenges, libido,

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hair loss, etc.

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Now when it comes to the world of hormone replacement and peptide therapy, what I have

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seen is a shift from doctors telling us that we were within normal limits, which was definitely

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incorrect all the way to the other way now where men's clinics are popping up left, right

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and center.

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So I myself wanted to find a reputable company that would do an analysis of my physiology

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and then offer supplementations without ramming, for example, hormone replacement therapy down

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my throat.

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Now I came across Transcend because they have an altruistic arm and they were a big reason

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why the 7X project I was a part of was able to proceed because of their generous donations.

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They also have the Transcend foundations where they are actually putting military and first

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responders through some of their therapies at no cost to the individual.

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So my own personal journey so far filled in the online form, went to Quest, got blood

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drawn and a few days later I'm talking to one of their wellness professionals as they

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guide me through my results and the supplementation that they suggest.

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In my case specifically, because I transitioned out the fire service five years ago and been

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very diligent with my health, my testosterone was actually in a good place.

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So I went down the peptide route and some other supplements to try and maximize my physiology

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knowing full well the damage that 14 years of shift work has done.

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Now I also want to underline because I think this is very important that each of the therapies

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they offer, they will talk about the pros and cons.

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So for example, a lot of first responders in shift work, our testosterone will be low,

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but sometimes nutrition, exercise and sleep can offset that on its own.

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So this company is not going to try and push you down a path, especially if it's one that

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you can't come back from.

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So whether it's libido, brain fog, inflammation, gut health, performance, sleep, this is definitely

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one of the most powerful tools in the toolbox.

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So to learn more, go to transcendcompany.com or listen to episode 808 of the Behind the

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Shield podcast with founder Ernie Colling.

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This episode is sponsored by New Calm.

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And as many of you know, I only bring sponsors onto this show whose products I truly swear

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by.

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Now we are an overworked and under slept population, especially those of us that wear uniform for

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a living and trying to reclaim some of the lost rest and recovery is imperative.

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Now the application of this product is as simple as putting on headphones and a sleep

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mask.

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As you listen to music on each of the programs, there is neuroacoustic software beneath that

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is tapping into the actual frequencies of your brain, whether to up-regulate your nervous

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system or down-regulate.

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Now for most of us that come off shift, we are A, exhausted and B, do not want to bring

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what we've had to see and do back home to our loved ones.

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So one powerful application is using the program Powernap, a 20 minute session that will not

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only feel like you've had two hours of sleep, but also down-regulate from a hypervigilant

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state back into the role of mother or father, husband or wife.

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Now there are so many other applications and benefits from this software.

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So I urge you to go and listen to episode 806 with CEO Jim Poole, then download New

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Calm N-U-C-A-L-M from your app store and sign up for the seven day free trial.

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Not only will you have an understanding of the origin story and the four decades this

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science has spanned, but also see for yourself the incredible health impact of this life-changing

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software.

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And you can find even more information on newcalm.com.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on

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the show artist and street photographer, Suzanne Stein.

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Now as you will hear in this conversation, there is a spectrum of art when it comes to

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this field.

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However, as she discusses, some is very family friendly and then the other side of the spectrum

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is truly portraying the desperation and some of our streets.

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And Suzanne has definitely become a beacon of light in that area.

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So we discuss a host of topics from her own journey into the arts and ultimately photography,

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her interactions with the homeless community, the opioid epidemic, the horrors of trank

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addiction, censorship and so much more.

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Now before we get to this incredibly powerful and important conversation, as I say every

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week, please just take a moment, go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the

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show, leave feedback and leave a rating.

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Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find.

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And this is a free library of over 850 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so

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I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you Suzanne Stein.

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Enjoy.

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Well, Suzanne, I want to start by saying thank you so much for taking some time.

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I know you've got a lot going on in your house at the moment, people towing and throwing.

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So I want to thank you for coming on the Behind the Shield podcast this afternoon.

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Thank you so much for inviting me and thank you for putting up with the difficulty with

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me today.

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No problem at all.

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So where on planet earth are we finding you this afternoon?

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I'm in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

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So as we kind of had a couple of chats prior, so as I asked you the first time, I would

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love to start at the very beginning.

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You've got a very interesting journey, not only with photography, but obviously the people

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that you found yourself around and the lens that you have on some of the issues that some

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of our brothers and sisters in our communities are struggling with.

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But I would love to start at the beginning of your journey.

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So tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what

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your parents did, how many siblings.

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I was born in Calcasca, Michigan, and that's like Northern Michigan, so it's a lot of snow.

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But I wasn't raised there.

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I was raised, my family, well, my dad was in the, he was in the Air Force.

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So then we went to Germany and we were in Germany when I was a baby for a long time.

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And then we came back to Philadelphia, which is where my father's from.

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My mother was from Michigan.

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That's why my dad was stationed up there.

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So I grew up in the Philadelphia suburbs and I grew up with a, you know, I had a brother.

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He was four years younger than me and I grew up in the seventies and you know, I had a

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weird childhood because my family, my dad and mom got divorced when I was seven.

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And at the time that this happened, it was, there were very rigid ideas about what families

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were.

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A family was a mom, a dad and kids.

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You know, there wasn't like some gay couple with kids.

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There wasn't like a divorce.

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There wasn't like a black and a white person married.

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There was, you know, a mom and a dad.

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And you know, we grew up in a very, you know, suburban mentality.

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So when that happened, it really set me apart being, having that divorce.

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Plus I'm half Jewish.

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And as a kid, I really felt that, that we were different.

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There was, I, well, considering what's happening now, I've grown up with a lot of weird kind

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of a little anti-Semitism when I was little, some stuff happening to us.

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But I had a kind of okay childhood with my dad.

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He took good care of us, but we were kind of like these sloppy, dirty kids.

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Cause my dad didn't know how to clean.

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And my mother, when she left, she kind of went through a second childhood and my mother

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has a history of alcohol and drug abuse.

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Like my mom, for whatever reason, she was able to keep it together and always have a

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job like a menial job, like in cafeterias or as a janitor.

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So she always worked, but she was basically a Skid Row drunk.

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She really was.

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And she did a lot of drugs.

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So when I was a kid, if she lived in a trailer, it's kind of like a caricature a little bit.

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I hate to say it, but she was kind of a stereotype of a, I don't want to say it, but a low income

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kind of drunken white female.

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I hate to put it that way, but it was pretty bad.

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And like she'd have all these little boxes laying around, like you keep jewelry in or

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you keep keepsakes in like little keepsake boxes from different places, enamel boxes.

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And when I was a kid, I'd like to open them up and I'd always find drugs.

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Like I'd be thinking I'd be finding jewelry or something special or interesting.

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And it was drugs like powders and pills and all kinds of stuff.

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So I grew up with a parent, one parent that was completely grossly irresponsible and was

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hooking up with criminals.

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It was really scary, like bank robbers.

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Like it was really scary.

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And my dad would have to leave us with her because his job required him to be on the

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road.

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And it was just kind of a weird deal with my mom.

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So I had kind of an odd situation on one hand in my childhood, but on the other hand, I

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had a great childhood with my dad who really tried hard to make up for all the deficits

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of my mom.

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With the lens that you have now, I'm working with a lot of people who are struggling with

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addiction.

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When you look back, are there any, do you have any idea of where her trauma came from

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that sent her into her own version of addiction?

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I don't think everybody who's addicted had trauma.

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I think that some people who have addiction like being high and they like the feeling

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of it.

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And there are people who have had trauma and who are reacting to trauma.

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I photographed many of them.

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And then there are other people who are narcissists and who like being high and who get high.

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And they then abandon their family and their responsibilities.

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Not every single person who's struggling with addiction is also suffering from trauma.

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Now my mom had a bumpy childhood in spots with her father, but my mom was always narcissistic

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and a little antisocial.

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So I think some people who get high a lot or they're getting high a lot and they're

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doing what they want to do.

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It's not a reaction to a trauma necessarily.

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Now you're bouncing from house to house.

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Obviously there's some turmoil in some of the homes.

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What were you playing and doing?

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What were your positive outlets as a child?

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I used to draw.

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I was a really good artist.

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I was a very good writer.

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I used to like to draw and write.

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I loved, I would get interest, very strong interest.

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It could be in horses or dogs or native Americans, astronomy, evolution.

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I had all kinds of interests.

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I was really good in school.

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So I found a lot to be interested in in the world and I read a great deal.

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From a very young age, like the third grade, I read Helter Skelter, the whole book.

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I read always adult books from the age of eight.

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So I had a really active mental kind of life and I had a lot of things that I was really,

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really fascinated by.

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So I was able to kind of immerse myself in that stuff.

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My mother was somewhat abusive as well.

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So those days were really hard to spend with her.

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But I found that I could bury my nose in a book, draw, do the things that I had to do

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to kind of disconnect from that situation so I could kind of stay afloat.

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What about career aspirations?

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When you were in the school age, what were you dreaming of becoming?

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I think, well, I was kind of fat.

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I wanted to be a ballerina when I was fat.

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But I wanted to be a doctor, an astronomer.

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I wanted to be an anthropologist.

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But what happened to me when I was 13, I began to experiment with drugs.

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And when I did that, my schoolwork just slid.

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I never really caught up.

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And I think that's when my childhood caught up to me when I was 13.

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So up until 13, I was an amazing student.

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And then at 13, I started doing a lot of drugs.

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And I just almost failed the eighth grade and had to go to summer school.

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And I became like, instead of being at the top of my class, I was in the bottom third.

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And I never really came out of that.

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Because I think that's when all the trauma of my own childhood, because there was a lot

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of trauma with my mother, it was bad.

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There was a lot of weird men, a lot of really bad stuff, a suicide and all kinds of crazy

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stuff.

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That's when the trauma hit me.

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And I just really started to flounder in high school.

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I had a really tough high school experience.

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And what were the drugs that you were using back then?

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When I was a kid, it started out with marijuana.

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And then it was hash, and then it was speed.

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And we would use barbiturates, some hallucinogens, but that wasn't my thing.

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It was mostly marijuana, hash, and a lot of speed.

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And I finally, I did it for about a year and a half.

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And then I realized I couldn't think straight anymore.

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Like my mind was gone.

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I couldn't remember things.

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I used to play guitar.

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Like I said, I had a lot of interests.

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And I began to recognize that my memory, which used to be photographic, was gone.

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So I stopped.

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I stopped doing drugs, and I lost all those friends that I had that were druggy friends.

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And they were very important to me.

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And I lost every one of them.

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And it came as a real shock.

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At the time, I was only 14.

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So I didn't really understand the dynamics of why people are friends, why they gravitate

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towards each other, and that if one person makes a positive change, that can reflect

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poorly on everybody else.

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And they just ostracize me.

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So that also set me into a total tailspin.

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And it was just a lot of trauma.

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And at that time, I mean, we're going back into the 80s.

232
00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,440
So now anything goes.

233
00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,380
You can be he, she, they.

234
00:16:28,380 --> 00:16:30,080
You can be whatever now.

235
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:31,960
And you're supposed to be accepted.

236
00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:36,200
I don't think that you're always accepted in every high school in the United States.

237
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:45,800
But in my high school in the middle of a cornfield in Pennsylvania, it was very rigidly defined

238
00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:47,240
social stratifications.

239
00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:52,120
And so when I left the smart kids, the smart kids were freaked out.

240
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:53,560
Then I was a druggy for a while.

241
00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:55,760
And then I left that, and nobody would touch me.

242
00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:57,880
Like I just didn't fit anymore.

243
00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:03,680
And I lacked the social skills to know because of all the stuff I'd been through.

244
00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:08,840
Generally, I didn't really understand how to save myself because I wasn't really coming

245
00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:10,520
from a level place.

246
00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:17,360
If I'd been more, had better parental intervention, like my dad was great, but he didn't intervene

247
00:17:17,360 --> 00:17:18,440
at all.

248
00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:23,100
He was not a strong figure as far as discipline.

249
00:17:23,100 --> 00:17:26,320
So I was really on my own, completely on my own.

250
00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:29,240
And I just couldn't, I didn't know how to handle any of this.

251
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,280
And I just didn't make good decisions.

252
00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:38,600
And I had no, it's weird as I'm talking about this, I'm understanding it better.

253
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:46,600
But I really didn't have a solid footing.

254
00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:51,060
And I didn't know how to resurrect myself.

255
00:17:51,060 --> 00:17:57,000
And so with all the trauma, as I mentioned, I just wound up really screwing up in high

256
00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,080
school and couldn't get into college.

257
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:05,000
I wound up getting accepted into an Ivy league school here in Philadelphia, University of

258
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:11,600
Pennsylvania, but it wasn't until I was an adult.

259
00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:15,760
I'd never thought of it that way, that if someone is in a group that is dragging them

260
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:19,600
down, for example, and they're not that dragging them down, but they're all kind of falling

261
00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,440
simultaneously a better way of putting it.

262
00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,560
That when one of them rises up, they become ostracized.

263
00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,440
And it kind of reflects a little bit.

264
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:34,520
When I was younger, I had a group of lads and I got into the summer camp exchange program.

265
00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:38,440
So I would go to America for three months, work on a summer camp, counseling kids, and

266
00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:39,520
then come back.

267
00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:43,480
And that broke the tribe like each time, I think it was only two or three.

268
00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,400
And then I basically felt like I wasn't part of it.

269
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:51,760
And it was almost because I was off on these adventures, they wanted to kind of pull me

270
00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:52,760
down again.

271
00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:58,240
And there's no negative towards them, but that tribal dynamic, I was the oddball.

272
00:18:58,240 --> 00:18:59,880
I was off doing something.

273
00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:06,480
And so you get these people that want to leave this circle that they're in that maybe isn't

274
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,920
serving them correctly, but we all need tribalism.

275
00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:11,100
We all need to belong.

276
00:19:11,100 --> 00:19:16,360
So that's a huge barrier of leaving an unhealthy environment is the fact that you might find

277
00:19:16,360 --> 00:19:19,080
yourself alone, which in itself can be detrimental.

278
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:20,080
Yeah.

279
00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:28,320
I think also when you abandon poor, like bad habits, it's a judgment on those that are

280
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:29,960
still in it.

281
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:36,280
Even though they're kids, you're in their minds, you're saying that you're better, that

282
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:39,560
you've rejected something because it's not good enough for you.

283
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:45,600
And that was definitely the feeling that I gave them by not just not wanting to do drugs

284
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:46,600
anymore.

285
00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:47,600
I thought we could all hang around.

286
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:49,280
I just didn't do drugs.

287
00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:55,560
And we were also victims of pedophiles as well as young girls.

288
00:19:55,560 --> 00:20:00,040
This all started when I was about 12, went till I was about 14.

289
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,160
And there were all kinds of adult males that were all over us.

290
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:09,320
And some of my friends had relationships with guys in their 30s when they were 12 and 13.

291
00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,400
We were a group of kids that were latchkey kids.

292
00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:13,700
That was the term.

293
00:20:13,700 --> 00:20:16,220
We were single parent family kids.

294
00:20:16,220 --> 00:20:18,640
A lot of them were mothers raising their kids.

295
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,560
In my case, it was my dad and they just had their hands full and they didn't know what

296
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:23,560
the hell was going on.

297
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:24,560
We were doing drugs.

298
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:26,160
We were hitchhiking.

299
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,120
We were sleeping in abandoned houses.

300
00:20:28,120 --> 00:20:29,640
We were sneaking out at night.

301
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,040
We were breaking and entering into homes, in the storerooms.

302
00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:34,100
We were vandalizing.

303
00:20:34,100 --> 00:20:35,100
I left all that out.

304
00:20:35,100 --> 00:20:36,560
I was doing a lot of bad things.

305
00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:38,880
I was really, really bad.

306
00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:40,120
Okay.

307
00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:44,040
And I got brought home by the police twice.

308
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:57,240
And after I stopped doing drugs, I had always looked at these adults like they were gross.

309
00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,100
They never really liked me, these adults.

310
00:20:59,100 --> 00:21:01,160
They were also criminals selling drugs.

311
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,000
It was really bad.

312
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:09,960
Really like the lowest class of people in our community.

313
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,280
And we were really vulnerable because we were single parent kids.

314
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:17,680
And we were growing up in a time when there was no social media.

315
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,000
There wasn't as much information out there for parents to access.

316
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,080
There was no way to look stuff up.

317
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:27,140
You had to go to a bookstore or have a set of encyclopedias.

318
00:21:27,140 --> 00:21:29,060
Parents didn't know what drugs we were doing.

319
00:21:29,060 --> 00:21:35,220
There was no news popping up on your Google feed when you wake up in the morning to tell

320
00:21:35,220 --> 00:21:38,560
you what's going on with kids in school.

321
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:39,680
There was nothing like that.

322
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:46,640
So we were like wild animals, literally wild, running wild.

323
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:55,720
And when I walked away from the situation, some of my friends were really being exploited.

324
00:21:55,720 --> 00:22:00,440
And I'm sure that they never really recovered from some of it.

325
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:08,880
And I think when you walk away from that kind of situation, they just passed judgment on

326
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:09,880
me.

327
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:14,160
They kind of reverse it and make it seem like you're the loser.

328
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:15,520
And that kind of stayed with me.

329
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:20,320
And you can't really transition back into another friend group.

330
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,680
It's hard now for kids, I'm sure.

331
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,160
I know that there's tremendous amount of bullying.

332
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,440
My son went through it in high school in New York.

333
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:36,160
But back when I was growing up, the impression was very lasting of not really fitting in

334
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:43,560
because the social habits were different than they are now.

335
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:48,560
The level of acceptance was really a lot lower.

336
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:53,400
I always found it so strange being an English schoolboy watching American films with the

337
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:58,560
jocks and the goths and the geeks and putting the geeks in the lockers because you just

338
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:00,800
didn't see that here.

339
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:06,080
And my wife said she didn't see the kind of the caricatures of those groups.

340
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:07,080
So much in America.

341
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:08,640
But yeah, it was very clicky.

342
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,280
And in the English schools, at least when I grew up, there was none of that.

343
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,600
There was the kids that were good at sports, maybe.

344
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:16,640
But everyone kind of somewhat got on.

345
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,220
The kids didn't like each other, of course.

346
00:23:18,220 --> 00:23:23,880
But there was no kind of cliques or tribes within school.

347
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:28,440
It was your history class or your main room or whatever it was.

348
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:32,720
But we were just put together of all shapes and sizes, colors and creeds.

349
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,640
So it was kind of weird to look at that.

350
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,920
And I ask people to this day, was your high school experience like that?

351
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,320
Or was it just cartoon?

352
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:48,440
But some people had great organic, healthy high school experiences and some lived those

353
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:49,440
movies.

354
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:55,160
Yeah, I think that in America, because we have a history of like, well, I don't know

355
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,600
what it's like in other parts of the world as far as growing up.

356
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:04,440
But we had a history of racism and stuff, and the racism here goes in all directions.

357
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,040
It isn't just in one direction.

358
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:15,240
And the distrust and just this really absurd clannishness.

359
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,000
Anything that's different.

360
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:21,040
In my high school, there was a couple of Korean kids, a couple of Jewish kids, a couple of

361
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,520
black kids, a couple of Indian kids.

362
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:33,720
And the rest of them were white and because I'm white, I'm half Jewish, the name was very

363
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:34,720
different.

364
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,760
So I caught a lot of anti-Semitic commentary from other kids.

365
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,440
But the fact is that I'm white and I have blue eyes.

366
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,800
So that didn't set me apart as much as some of the other kids.

367
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:51,920
But we were all this weird group of kids that were just from other parts.

368
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,080
It was just honestly, it was an awful experience.

369
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:56,280
My high school experience.

370
00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:02,480
I so wish I could have grown up in an urban environment where there would have been a

371
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:03,480
lot more diversity.

372
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:09,160
I hate that word, but I really needed to be in that kind of environment.

373
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:16,080
But I grew up in a really stratified, very kind of, I don't know, do you know who Archie

374
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:17,080
Bunker is?

375
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:18,080
Yes.

376
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:19,080
The character?

377
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:20,080
Yeah.

378
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:27,840
I was very much, even though it was a suburban, almost country location, the mentality was

379
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,640
very much like that.

380
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,720
And it was really damaging.

381
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:35,920
So you pull away from this friend group.

382
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:41,040
Talk to me about graduation and where you find yourself as far as in the workplace.

383
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:45,480
I graduated and I went to community college.

384
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,800
And then I kind of had a nervous breakdown.

385
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,480
I think it was, again, all that trauma.

386
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:53,480
I don't know.

387
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,280
I got really sick.

388
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:05,960
I think I probably had a serious foodborne illness and I couldn't leave the house for

389
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:06,960
six weeks.

390
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,160
I was really, really, really, really sick.

391
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,160
And it triggered a nervous breakdown.

392
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:16,600
And all of this stuff with my mother and all this crazy stuff, and my mother was really

393
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:21,520
crazy at that time, and that's when my life really changed.

394
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:26,680
I had this nervous breakdown and when I came out of it, I was a lot healthier.

395
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,960
It was like I had to shed this high school thing and then I got a job as a waitress.

396
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:36,500
I was very shy, but I got this job as a waitress and I gained a lot of confidence.

397
00:26:36,500 --> 00:26:44,240
And then I left and I moved to New York City at the age of barely like 20, 21.

398
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,160
And that's when I became very, very competent.

399
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:53,120
My whole life changed after I had that nervous breakdown.

400
00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:56,480
So I became an actress in New York.

401
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,520
I studied theater and I used to like to write a lot.

402
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,480
I did my own monologues.

403
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:06,480
I had kind of a New York kind of life for a while.

404
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,840
And then I don't know how far you want me to go into that.

405
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:19,400
But I hadn't really found my driving passion in life.

406
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,200
I had interests and I had abilities.

407
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:28,640
I was a great writer, always was, probably better when I was younger than I am now.

408
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,880
Now I think too much about what I'm writing, but I'm trying to get out of that habit and

409
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:34,320
I'm trying to write more now.

410
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:40,160
But I hadn't really found my passion.

411
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:49,800
Like that sounds ridiculous, but I didn't have a calling until I had a car accident

412
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:58,240
and I became disabled when I was in my late 20s and I had a serious back injury.

413
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,760
And I was disabled for a few years, like really disabled.

414
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:07,840
I was in a rehab hospital and it was very, very bad situation.

415
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:15,840
And it took me years to recover.

416
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,960
And as I recovered, I discovered that I was a really good artist.

417
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:27,480
I started to draw and that was the first time I realized I had any worth, like that I had

418
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,200
this real talent.

419
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:35,120
I never felt, I think that if someone has an ability, like let's say you're a dancer

420
00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:40,840
or you're a gymnast or you're a runner, you have this natural ability.

421
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:47,720
It's like this amazing sense of freedom and like joy and euphoria that you just can do

422
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,320
something that you're so good at.

423
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:54,200
I'd never really had that feeling until I started drawing and I was really, really good

424
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:55,400
at it.

425
00:28:55,400 --> 00:29:00,720
I had a really offbeat kind of, I had a lot of the same subjects that I have now, except

426
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,640
I drew.

427
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:13,080
But as good as I was, I wasn't able to really fully articulate my ability into an artistic

428
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:19,440
statement and into like a body of work.

429
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:27,920
And after a few years, I got pregnant and I had my son and I became the single parent

430
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:35,200
of a kid on the autistic spectrum, which has been really very difficult.

431
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:40,200
And then I discovered photography and that's when I found myself was when I discovered

432
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:41,840
photography.

433
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,720
That's when I like really found myself.

434
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,320
So you've done the art of acting, which is funny.

435
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,880
You went to New York, I went to London after drama school and got stuck in this vicious

436
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:58,920
circle of I had an agent tell me, I really like I did the showcase.

437
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,800
I really like what you did, but you wouldn't be in my area of the agency.

438
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:07,240
So let us know, and it was William Morris, let us know when you get work and we'll send

439
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,440
the right person over to come watch you.

440
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,240
And then it was just like, I couldn't get work, I didn't have an agent and I couldn't

441
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:13,240
get an agent.

442
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:14,840
Yeah, I needed work to get an agent.

443
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,080
I needed an agent to get work.

444
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:17,760
So I was stuck in this vicious circle.

445
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:24,160
So I'm always impressed by anyone who enters New York, London and is successful because

446
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,880
I mean, I basically wasn't, I couldn't get through that door.

447
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,680
And it wasn't like I had real endurance or longevity.

448
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,600
It wasn't really my calling and I definitely was not a good actor.

449
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:39,920
But a kind of niche actor, I was a very physical stunt man type role.

450
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:44,160
But yeah, I don't think people realize you don't just graduate drama school, move to

451
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,040
London and start working.

452
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:48,320
There's a lot of barriers to entry.

453
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,720
And if you're stuck in that revolving door, you might just be spinning the rest of your

454
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:53,400
career.

455
00:30:53,400 --> 00:31:00,100
I found in New York, it took me a while to understand this, but a lot of it depended

456
00:31:00,100 --> 00:31:02,640
on your look.

457
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:07,200
So I wound up getting these really great headshots by this photographer named Ruffi.

458
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,240
He was the guy for a while in the 80s.

459
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,400
And I wasn't very, I'm not photogenic.

460
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:14,400
Like I don't look good, right?

461
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:19,400
I don't look, I look much better in person than I do on camera.

462
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:20,400
I just do.

463
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:26,080
So he even thought I was, he thought I'd be photogenic, but he was appalled.

464
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:27,080
I was not photogenic.

465
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:28,080
He managed.

466
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:29,080
That's not what you want to hear.

467
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:30,320
It took him forever.

468
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:31,520
He was like, Oh, you'll be fine.

469
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:32,520
You'll take beautiful pictures.

470
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:33,840
And he just started sweating.

471
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,760
He could not get it looking right.

472
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:37,760
Okay.

473
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,440
So what I discovered was that it was about the way you looked.

474
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:47,560
If you have the right headshot and you fit the look, then you could get in to see somebody.

475
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:54,160
And I didn't have to look and I had no connections and I didn't understand.

476
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:59,200
I went into it with the idea that it was like the movie fame, that if you were really good

477
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:04,500
and really interesting and really into it, and I wrote most of my own monologues that

478
00:32:04,500 --> 00:32:06,800
you were going to get discovered.

479
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:12,360
And what I really should have been doing was doing a lot of performance space stuff and

480
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,680
pushing my way into clubs and performing on stage.

481
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,720
But I just wasn't that into it.

482
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,760
It was something fun to do for a while, but I didn't have that kind of passion and I didn't

483
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:24,120
like that.

484
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:30,160
It was so looks motivated and I saw people being successful who had the right look or

485
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,960
the right connections or they were the kid, a child of somebody.

486
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,640
And I just thought it was bullshit.

487
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:43,880
This is acting like I'm not trying to knock it, but being an actor or an actress is not

488
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:48,920
the same as being a brain surgeon or being a writer or being somebody that you're copying

489
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,000
something else.

490
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:58,480
I don't find that I don't really understand why.

491
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:05,920
I mean, it's entertainment and it's great to be able to watch a movie, but I don't really

492
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:07,680
put that stuff on a pedestal.

493
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:11,360
And that's why I kind of walked away from it because I thought I want to live a real

494
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:12,360
life.

495
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:17,840
I don't want to live somebody else's life and getting the best seat in a restaurant.

496
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:23,280
We talked about this before, celebrity culture, I really disdain.

497
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,840
So I don't care about it.

498
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:31,680
But as far as photography goes, it's kind of the same.

499
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:32,960
It's about connections.

500
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,240
It's about how your pictures look.

501
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,600
It's about how you are.

502
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,880
There's so much BS in anything to do with the arts.

503
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:47,360
It's very hard to just be really brilliantly talented and that's not enough to get you

504
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:48,760
anywhere.

505
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,240
It's really not.

506
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:58,720
It is if you fit in with someone's...

507
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:03,520
I think it's sort of the arts are run by little sororities and little fraternities and you

508
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:08,520
have to sort of be accepted by one or you have to fit in somehow.

509
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:15,960
The people that are in it don't see it that way, but it's a very entitled, clickish kind

510
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,040
of group.

511
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,360
And it's also extremely competitive.

512
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,720
Very, very competitive.

513
00:34:22,720 --> 00:34:30,360
And I think that's just the way the arts are for a lot of people.

514
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:34,320
It's interesting because being in that space for a bit and then ultimately staying in it

515
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:41,120
for a long time on the stunt side, you'd hear people say, it's who you know, this is the

516
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:42,120
problem.

517
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:47,320
But then you go to the fire service and depending on the fire department, I've watched and luckily

518
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:51,400
I would test it for this one department and I was number one on the list.

519
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,840
And then a seemingly very fast process ground to a halt.

520
00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:00,600
And then they had to redo the list and I was luckily still number one, but I found out

521
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:06,080
after the fact that someone who was the son of the previous chief didn't make the list

522
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,440
the first time, but magically made the list the second time.

523
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:14,280
So even in my own profession, it's all the professions really.

524
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:22,600
But yeah, I think especially that superficial judgment that is modeling, acting, I mean,

525
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,840
God, crippling sometimes because like you said, you could walk in with the most amazing

526
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:33,040
skill set and someone look at you and go, no, you're being judged.

527
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:37,720
And I think it takes a very specific kind of personality to be able to shrug off those,

528
00:35:37,720 --> 00:35:42,040
especially, they might end up being very successful, but that journey can be brutal.

529
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:43,040
It can be.

530
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:47,240
The other thing is too, I think having someone in your corner, a famous person or someone

531
00:35:47,240 --> 00:35:51,400
who's really influential in your field, that really helps.

532
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:57,040
In photography, I'm not an expert on how people get ahead, but a lot of them seem to be interns

533
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:01,320
for a paper or that's how they get into the paper.

534
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,720
Not always the best people are getting the most jobs in photography.

535
00:36:04,720 --> 00:36:06,960
It's definitely an issue.

536
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:18,600
My work is really idiosyncratic, but I'm having a lot of trouble breaking into a certain sphere

537
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,360
because of my style.

538
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:28,440
So I'm not part of that sorority and it seems to be kind of a sorority.

539
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:38,920
And I can't kind of fight the current ideology in corporate media right now is not to present

540
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,760
really gritty, realistic pictures of life in America.

541
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:47,200
So I get published in Europe, but it's very tough.

542
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:52,120
I just had a conversation with someone at Reuters, one of the head people at Reuters,

543
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:53,520
and I don't think she liked my work.

544
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,320
She was very nice.

545
00:36:55,320 --> 00:37:00,440
We had a meeting and I got no...

546
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:05,080
I mean, I am relatively used to people saying to me that they really like my work or it's

547
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:06,080
this or it's that.

548
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:07,400
They usually have something good to say.

549
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:11,560
They may not like all of it, but this woman had nothing good to say.

550
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:16,840
She does want to see more of it as I do it to send it to her, but she didn't like my

551
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,000
work and she explained, I don't think she did.

552
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:23,680
She explained to me that in the United States, it's very hard to sell work that's very realistic,

553
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:25,400
even though it's very powerful.

554
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:30,760
I think she thought my work was powerful and that I was very good at creating a narrative

555
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:35,120
and creating empathy, but I wasn't sure that she liked it.

556
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:44,640
But she said that she can't sell in this marketplace work that's rough or gritty because they sanitize

557
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:45,640
the news.

558
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:46,640
That was her words.

559
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,200
I use that word, but she used it.

560
00:37:49,200 --> 00:38:01,880
And I've been in close contact with some editors who they just can't tolerate realism like

561
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,080
I do in this country.

562
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:11,480
But these are editors that publish extremely graphic images of the Ukraine and dead people,

563
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:16,680
Ukrainian dead people, dead people in body bags, dead hands, dead eyes peeking out of

564
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:21,320
body bags, dead families in the middle of the street.

565
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:29,060
Really a lot of death, a lot of graphic death, but that situation happened a far away.

566
00:38:29,060 --> 00:38:36,280
And it was a political situation that our country wanted the population to be behind.

567
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:41,440
They wanted us to see those pictures because they wanted us to support that war.

568
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:46,880
But when you're talking about pictures of a population in this country, whether it's

569
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:54,480
drug addiction or poverty struck populations in North Philadelphia, these editors do not

570
00:38:54,480 --> 00:39:00,320
want to publish it because in their words, they have to be careful about how bodies are

571
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:04,400
shown and how certain populations are shown.

572
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:09,840
And this was said to me flat out because they don't want to make situations worse.

573
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:16,200
But what's happening is, is they're hiding from the public what's really happening.

574
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:23,080
You have editors who in a way their feet don't touch the ground.

575
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:24,480
They have a certain aesthetic.

576
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,000
They have an education level.

577
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:32,080
They may not have ever been through anything in their lives that was really problematic.

578
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:36,720
And they are deciding what you see and what you hear and what stories you get, what images

579
00:39:36,720 --> 00:39:37,840
you see.

580
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:42,400
There are people in the United States that have no idea that North Philadelphia or parts

581
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:46,440
of New York City look the way they do because you won't see it in the New York Times.

582
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,320
You won't see it in the Philadelphia Inquirer.

583
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,360
You won't see it in any of these papers.

584
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:56,160
The San Francisco Chronicle does have some realistic images of the drug issue.

585
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:57,980
They're supporting that.

586
00:39:57,980 --> 00:40:07,560
But a lot of work that's really realistic, social realism like I do is very tough to

587
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:13,520
get seen in the United States because we are, I guess, maybe a bit too arrogant.

588
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:14,920
We don't want to look at it.

589
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:20,880
And we say it's exploitative, but we don't call it exploitation when it's starving people

590
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:31,040
from Africa or dead people from Ukraine or what's happening in Gaza right now, I could

591
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:35,480
talk endlessly about.

592
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:40,760
You're not really seeing images in corporate media of what it really looks like in Gaza.

593
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:45,440
You're seeing images of what it really looks like in Gaza on social media.

594
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:46,440
People are turning.

595
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:48,440
There was just a real study released.

596
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:54,520
I don't know who did it, but it was a real study about how, and I've been saying this,

597
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:58,400
I'm writing a blog post about it.

598
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:04,520
People are turning to social media like Telegram and Instagram and TikTok to get news because

599
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:06,880
they really want to see what's going on.

600
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,880
People want to see what's really happening.

601
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:14,880
So they're turning to these platforms and they think they're seeing what's really happening,

602
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:19,120
but they're really not getting the whole story because a lot of these people that they're

603
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:22,280
getting their information from aren't necessarily real journalists.

604
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:28,720
They're not really approaching it from a journalistic set of principles and protocols.

605
00:41:28,720 --> 00:41:32,960
So they're getting what they think is news, but it isn't always.

606
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,360
And they're turning away from corporate media.

607
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:41,360
Well, adding to that perspective of allowing images from foreign countries to come in,

608
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,680
but not our own, that really reminds me of a lot of the conversations I've had on human

609
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,600
trafficking with some of the experts.

610
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,640
And that film came out a few months ago and everyone was like, oh my God, it's the most

611
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:52,640
amazing thing.

612
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:59,440
But it was firstly, I've heard since, it may not be as pure as the driven snow as people

613
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:05,440
originally thought behind it, but also it was kind of like this one man's heroism kind

614
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:12,200
of story where the real danger in the world of human trafficking is our own children on

615
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:17,880
these streets and the predators that are preying upon them to get them into prostitution and

616
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,640
some of the other things through their own devices.

617
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,440
This isn't South America.

618
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,000
This is an American problem.

619
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,000
And again, it's not even about doom and gloom.

620
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:29,600
Most of our neighborhoods are very safe.

621
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:33,520
Most of our fellow community members are great people.

622
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:38,600
But if all we do is point over the fence and say, oh my God, it's terrible over there and

623
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:43,280
ignore what's happening here, then firstly, people are suffering needlessly because we're

624
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:44,280
not paying attention.

625
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:48,000
But secondly, we're sticking our head in the sand and that's only going to get worse.

626
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:53,760
So it's important that I think it's powerful that we see these Instagram videos and I do.

627
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:58,640
I follow a lot of different groups around the world and it's very graphic, but that's

628
00:42:58,640 --> 00:42:59,640
what's happening.

629
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:00,640
This is the horror of war.

630
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:02,480
This is the horror of famine and whatever.

631
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:08,080
But we also need the same lens to be on our homelessness, on the opioid epidemic, on the

632
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:12,520
obesity crisis, on the gang issues, all these things.

633
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,520
If we're going to be raw overseas, I agree 100%.

634
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:19,920
We need to have the same raw perspective on our own streets so it moves us.

635
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:20,920
We don't.

636
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:25,480
You have to understand the whole woke mentality, which I'm very against.

637
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:27,360
I'm not against equality.

638
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:28,880
This has nothing to do with equality.

639
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:34,560
I'm against cancel culture and this wokeism thing because what's happening is there are

640
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:43,360
people who subscribe to that and those people are in charge of visuals on newspapers.

641
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,160
They're terrified of getting blowback.

642
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:47,520
They're afraid of getting blowback.

643
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:53,360
They also don't want to show certain communities in a way that will make them...

644
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:58,480
They're afraid that they'll be looked down on because maybe...

645
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:02,140
I have my thoughts about this, but what they're really doing is they're hiding whole communities

646
00:44:02,140 --> 00:44:05,520
of people, vibrant communities of people and not...

647
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:06,900
It's like they don't exist.

648
00:44:06,900 --> 00:44:13,600
You cannot see images of certain neighborhoods the way they really look in corporate media

649
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:14,600
at all.

650
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:16,720
They don't show it at all.

651
00:44:16,720 --> 00:44:23,320
One editor said to me that they have to be very careful how they show certain bodies

652
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:26,280
because they don't want to make problems worse.

653
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:30,960
But what they're really doing is they're saying that those people aren't good enough.

654
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,200
They're actually saying that they need to be hidden.

655
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:35,480
Do you know what I'm saying?

656
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:47,480
I'm saying that I feel that...I've said this many times, it's a mosaic and all of the colors

657
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:51,760
and all of the shapes, everything needs to be included.

658
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:59,400
We're living in a society now where we have elitist people who are making decisions about

659
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:04,800
everything you see and hear and read.

660
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,160
A lot of them are afraid of blowback.

661
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:14,840
Harm reduction will eviscerate the Philadelphia Inquirer if they run my pictures.

662
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:18,960
They will not run my pictures because they're terrified.

663
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:19,960
That's the truth.

664
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:27,560
I have had a couple of meetings there and they don't want to show what it really looks

665
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:28,560
like.

666
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:35,320
Still, you have a tepid photography program at this paper and you have people that could

667
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:40,800
have won Pulitzer Prizes for journalism in Kensington who have literally just not done

668
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:46,400
anything in all the years that Kensington's been sitting there, literally as a crow flies

669
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,800
a mile and a half away from the main office of this newspaper.

670
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:51,720
They won't touch it.

671
00:45:51,720 --> 00:45:58,160
I have many, many images that are much easier on the eyes than some of my harshest ones.

672
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:07,920
But we're living in a place now where I can't really figure out what it is that is driving

673
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:09,720
these people.

674
00:46:09,720 --> 00:46:15,760
Anything coming from the US, it has to have a very, I call it photographic euphemism.

675
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:22,080
It's sort of like mannerism, the style of art that's very pretentious and light and

676
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:25,880
even presenting heavy subjects like dignity photography.

677
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:30,640
You send a photographer into a neighborhood and they do this posed portrait in front of

678
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:34,720
a whatever, but they don't go into the projects.

679
00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:36,080
They don't go into the hallways.

680
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:38,000
They don't show how people are living.

681
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:43,000
They don't show anything about what it's really like to live in some of these areas because

682
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,400
you have publications that don't want to show it.

683
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,160
They don't want to...

684
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:50,160
I'm not really sure.

685
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:52,480
I can't really even speak freely about it.

686
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:57,740
It's really sad and it's really unfair ultimately to the people who are living in these areas

687
00:46:57,740 --> 00:47:00,480
because their stories aren't being effectively told.

688
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:09,040
They're not being told at all because you have a group of people who are curating, strictly

689
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,520
curating everything you see.

690
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:15,240
I just did a thing on anti-Semitism and put it on Instagram.

691
00:47:15,240 --> 00:47:17,480
And I'm kind of shadow banned on Instagram.

692
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:19,020
So I've been for a while.

693
00:47:19,020 --> 00:47:24,680
Now it's worse because I interact with all these accounts from Gaza and a lot of them

694
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:25,800
are in trouble.

695
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:33,960
But anyway, I did this story about this old Jewish guy, this rabbi who was attacked, almost

696
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:34,960
attacked on the street.

697
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:37,320
I photographed the whole thing.

698
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:41,400
And that's a story that New York should be talking about.

699
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:49,920
But you can't get these rough real life stories out there.

700
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:51,800
I think people really want that.

701
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:56,920
That's why they're turning to Instagram, to these bloody videos of people coming out of

702
00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:00,800
these bombed out houses in Gaza.

703
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,040
Because people want to know what the hell's going on.

704
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:09,560
They don't want to turn on CNN and have somebody say, gloss over the truth.

705
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:12,320
They want to know what's going on.

706
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:17,760
And so I think our publications are going to have to catch up to that because people

707
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:21,120
are starting to not take them seriously at all.

708
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:26,520
And one of the problems that's happening, especially with anti-Semitism right now, is

709
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:30,320
you have a lot of half truths out there and a lot of misinformation.

710
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:38,040
And people need to have accurately sourced and vetted information sources along with

711
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:39,320
those rough images.

712
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:40,320
And they're not getting that.

713
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:44,000
They're just getting rough video, but they're not getting much else.

714
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:45,000
You know what I mean?

715
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:46,000
Yeah.

716
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:47,000
The context.

717
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:48,000
Right.

718
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:49,240
They're not getting the full context.

719
00:48:49,240 --> 00:48:57,840
And so it's kind of like little kids looking at pornography and just seeing the pictures.

720
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:05,560
They have no idea that there's actually something wonderful that can come of sex.

721
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:07,580
They're just seeing pornography.

722
00:49:07,580 --> 00:49:12,940
And that's kind of what, in a way, what a lot of the visuals are that are coming out

723
00:49:12,940 --> 00:49:14,520
about this war.

724
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:20,180
It's sort of like death pornography in a way.

725
00:49:20,180 --> 00:49:24,800
And it's designed to get people to feel a certain way.

726
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:27,320
But it's not really...

727
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:34,800
A lot of those people in Gaza aren't really telling real stories about people following

728
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:35,800
them around.

729
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:36,800
What are their experiences?

730
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:45,160
Every day, it's just a lot of the glorious parts of death to get people to look.

731
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:47,200
Do you know what I mean?

732
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:48,600
Yeah, absolutely.

733
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:53,920
Well, you talked about starting off drawing, well, acting then drawing, and then you said

734
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:55,720
you found photography.

735
00:49:55,720 --> 00:50:00,520
Walk me through how you found photography, and then let's go to how you got to Kensington

736
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:05,800
and started taking pictures that you're now known for.

737
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,440
So I found photography on a trip to Europe.

738
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,940
We were really poor, and we basically still are pretty poor.

739
00:50:11,940 --> 00:50:16,400
And I saved for a trip to Europe when my son was 11.

740
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:23,000
And we went for six weeks, and I started taking iPhone pictures in Bruges, Belgium, and then

741
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:25,760
in Venice, and then in Perugia.

742
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:30,560
And I didn't know what I was doing, but I was good at it, these iPhone pictures.

743
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:37,960
And I found myself chasing Roman, Romany people, they call them gypsies, but you're not supposed

744
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:38,960
to.

745
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:43,920
They're very interesting populations in Italy, and I was just chasing them around with my

746
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:44,920
iPhone.

747
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:50,280
And I remember Googling it and finding street photography, and then it all clicked with

748
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:52,640
all these photography books my dad had.

749
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:53,880
We always had a lot of books.

750
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:56,040
We had thousands of books.

751
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,080
I told you I read a lot.

752
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:05,440
So I had been exposed to a lot of old photography as a child, and I guess it was in the back

753
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:07,560
of my mind, buried.

754
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:14,120
And when I discovered all this, it was turning a corner, and it was like a blinding light.

755
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:19,900
It was literally a near-death experience of the light and God.

756
00:51:19,900 --> 00:51:22,200
It was really like finding photography was like that.

757
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:29,000
My life was one way before that trip, and when I came back, I bought a camera, and I

758
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:31,240
just started learning to use a camera.

759
00:51:31,240 --> 00:51:35,360
I had a Fujifilm X-T1, and I found Skid Row.

760
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:36,600
I'm kind of synopsizing.

761
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:42,400
I found downtown Los Angeles and beach culture in California, and I was doing kind of these

762
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,600
lighthearted street pictures, and I was really good at it.

763
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,120
I had a lot of bad pictures.

764
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:53,560
I had a lot of awful pictures, like literally just people milling around, like just nothing.

765
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:54,880
But then I'd have a real gem.

766
00:51:54,880 --> 00:52:05,440
Like I had an eye, but I just needed to learn how to distill it and how to use the camera

767
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:07,880
and use light and all this stuff.

768
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:11,000
When I first started taking pictures, I could make a great composition.

769
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:13,520
It was more of a social composition.

770
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:17,120
I was very good at telling a story in the picture, but I didn't really know how to use

771
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:18,480
light or f-stop.

772
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:26,000
I wasn't really taking pictures that were photographically expert or anything.

773
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:32,720
As I progressed, I started doing a lot more of that, really, really good photography,

774
00:52:32,720 --> 00:52:34,280
like technically.

775
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:37,720
I don't do as much of that in Kensington.

776
00:52:37,720 --> 00:52:44,080
It's more my compositional and narrative skills that come into play and some creativity, but

777
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:48,560
not as much as I can manage in New York being creative here.

778
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:52,200
It's just not really appropriate with Kensington.

779
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:58,320
But I started photographing in Skid Row and doing these kind of character sketches with

780
00:52:58,320 --> 00:52:59,920
people.

781
00:52:59,920 --> 00:53:01,600
Skid Row's changed a lot.

782
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:04,320
LA's changed a lot.

783
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:08,760
If you go on my website and look at my Los Angeles street photography, it's black and

784
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:10,000
white.

785
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:15,480
Then my Skid Row pictures, there's a lot of great characters and great moments that aren't

786
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:18,920
really there anymore because gentrification.

787
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:22,920
Photography is like you're photographing a time.

788
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:27,200
It's like a trend, a fashion, like bell bottoms in the 70s.

789
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:31,440
When I photographed downtown LA, that was the way it was at the time I photographed

790
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:35,360
it, but it's not like that anymore.

791
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:41,240
That's why street photography is so important because it chronicles times and it preserves

792
00:53:41,240 --> 00:53:50,240
characters and places and people and ideas and the zeitgeist of the time.

793
00:53:50,240 --> 00:53:54,960
I wound up losing my apartment in California because I couldn't pay for it.

794
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,200
We moved to Europe to save money.

795
00:53:57,200 --> 00:54:02,160
We went to Turkey and France, me and my son.

796
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:09,120
When we got back on our feet, we came to New York City and I needed to get some services

797
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:18,000
for my son who was really struggling with some issues.

798
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:22,320
I think that I became a really good photographer in New York.

799
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:28,000
That's when I really began to learn how to do pictures because I didn't find the content

800
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:29,840
in New York that I had in LA.

801
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:34,120
There wasn't Skid Row in downtown LA and these wonderful characters.

802
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:39,160
In New York, I had to work harder to get it interesting to me.

803
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:43,360
I did multiple exposures, in-camera multiple exposures.

804
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:49,680
I met certain people and I did some photo essays and long-term series of images with

805
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:51,480
certain people.

806
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:57,400
I really developed as a photographer and I think my best photography is in New York.

807
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:02,000
A lot of people still love that Skid Row in LA stuff, but a lot of people that know of

808
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:10,920
me now don't even know I did anything in LA.

809
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:11,920
I came to Kensington.

810
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:16,880
I'd been in New York for a long time and it was getting old being in New York.

811
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:21,440
I was really tired of being in the city and I was tired of the grind.

812
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:25,920
I photographed New York so extensively that I was just done.

813
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:30,920
Also, I had COVID and it changed me.

814
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:32,240
I wasn't really feeling well.

815
00:55:32,240 --> 00:55:36,240
I had long COVID.

816
00:55:36,240 --> 00:55:45,040
I just had been wanting to photograph Kensington for a while and I saw some videos of Kensington.

817
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:52,940
I was like, my God, it's possible to do some serious art here that will also tell a story

818
00:55:52,940 --> 00:55:56,360
that needs to be told effectively because it's never been told effectively.

819
00:55:56,360 --> 00:56:01,160
There was one other photographer that went in there a few years ago and did some really

820
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:04,720
great portraits and got a lot of attention for it, but he didn't do street photography

821
00:56:04,720 --> 00:56:06,400
and he didn't show what the place looked like.

822
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:11,520
He did portraits, which were good, but I wanted to do something that hadn't been done before.

823
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:15,360
I wanted to make a portrait of a neighborhood.

824
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:24,560
I visited Kensington a bunch of times and I just had to do it like it was a calling.

825
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:25,800
I had to relocate.

826
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:26,840
I had to leave New York.

827
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:34,720
I had to buy a car, a crappy car, and I basically just left my life behind to do this thing

828
00:56:34,720 --> 00:56:36,880
in Kensington.

829
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:40,560
To do Kensington, you have to be a raw social realist.

830
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:44,720
Either that or you're going to come here and you're going to ask to do a nice portrait

831
00:56:44,720 --> 00:56:50,080
and get a story and make a recording of the person's story and take their picture.

832
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:51,080
That's bullshit.

833
00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:56,680
I've gotten a lot of blowback for the work in Kensington from harm reduction, from communist

834
00:56:56,680 --> 00:57:02,400
groups, from I'm an exploiter, I'm this, I'm that, I'm a Jew.

835
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:09,760
I've gotten a lot of really bad messages on social media, but in order to do a profile

836
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:13,920
of any place, it has to be real.

837
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:16,080
You have to see people what it looks like.

838
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:19,480
I try to do it artistically and sometimes people's backs are turned.

839
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:22,760
I'll do pictures where you can't really see their faces and sometimes you can see their

840
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:25,560
faces.

841
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:30,040
It's about documenting an American phenomenon effectively.

842
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:34,480
That means that you're going to do it and you're going to photograph the people who

843
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:35,840
are suffering with addiction.

844
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:38,200
You're going to photograph the families in the neighborhood.

845
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:39,640
You're going to photograph the neighborhood.

846
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:41,940
You're going to photograph animals.

847
00:57:41,940 --> 00:57:46,480
I do all of it.

848
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:51,200
A lot of people now just, it's easy enough for people to say you're being exploitative

849
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:57,000
or you're being, oh, this is just gross and disgusting.

850
00:57:57,000 --> 00:57:58,000
That's what it looks like.

851
00:57:58,000 --> 00:57:59,800
I did a whole series on Trank.

852
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:01,400
I showed what it really looks like.

853
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:02,720
What do Trank ones look like?

854
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:08,560
What do the EMS people see when they pick these people up?

855
00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:12,880
You have major newspapers sending people in to do these stories and the pictures mostly

856
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:16,640
suck or they just show no context.

857
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:23,240
You have a photographer in there that's completely overwhelmed, afraid, doesn't know how to talk

858
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:28,840
to people to get, they're just out of their element.

859
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:32,400
In order to do Kensington right, you have to be really committed to it and you have

860
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:38,880
to be willing to take risks and you have to be a little bit stupid sometimes.

861
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:44,360
Well, speaking of Trank, that's a somewhat new drug compared to heroin and some of the

862
00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:47,680
other ones that we've seen for a few decades now.

863
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:53,440
You've got a unique lens, no pun intended, as far as some of the more desperate areas

864
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:55,520
that you've filmed.

865
00:58:55,520 --> 00:59:01,960
What have you seen timeline wise as far as the introduction of Trank and the impact it's

866
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:05,680
having on a lot of these addicts that you're seeing?

867
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:08,200
I wasn't here for the introduction of Trank.

868
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:12,880
Trank first started being seen I think around, I don't know, maybe 2010.

869
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:15,760
I'm not really sure.

870
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:21,020
But it's now in the drug supply of fentanyl and fentanyl is actually spiking a lot of

871
00:59:21,020 --> 00:59:22,020
different things.

872
00:59:22,020 --> 00:59:27,440
It isn't just people wanting to get an opioid high.

873
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:29,760
But Trank has destroyed these people.

874
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:31,360
It has destroyed them.

875
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:35,800
It is not only causing wounds, but it's also causing internal damage.

876
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:40,200
I believe it's causing, and I'm a lay person.

877
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:45,760
I'm not a physician, but I can see in these young people certain physical characteristics

878
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:47,880
that they all seem to have.

879
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:50,400
And I also have watched over a year now.

880
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:56,520
It's been over a year that I've been here and I've watched people deteriorate, deteriorate.

881
00:59:56,520 --> 00:59:59,720
There's only one person has improved that I've photographed.

882
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:00,720
She got clean.

883
01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:01,880
I believe she got clean.

884
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:05,320
I was told she got clean.

885
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:09,040
The rest of them are so bad, I can't photograph them.

886
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:11,680
There is a few that got clean probably that I haven't seen.

887
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:13,560
I don't know for sure.

888
01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:15,640
Some of them could have died.

889
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:18,440
I stayed out of there for a long time and I've been going back.

890
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:25,640
I'm doing different kinds of work now, kind of more still life, more scenes.

891
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:32,400
Getting ready to do another project probably out of possibly out of the country.

892
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:41,560
I'm not sure, but every one of them has gotten catastrophically worse and they're all supported

893
01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:46,880
by harm reduction groups who are just making it easy for them to stay there.

894
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:51,680
And it's so awful that I can't photograph them anymore.

895
01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:59,160
The people that appear on my website, and I have a publication with Stern coming out.

896
01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:01,560
They're finally going to publish it.

897
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:05,940
All the people in those pictures have gotten so much worse since those pictures were done.

898
01:01:05,940 --> 01:01:07,920
They get worse and worse and worse and worse and worse.

899
01:01:07,920 --> 01:01:11,080
They don't get better.

900
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:14,320
Some of them are so bad now I can't photograph them.

901
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:22,680
I mean I could, but I don't know what kind of meaning the picture would have because

902
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:27,280
in a normal society where we were mature, the pictures would have meaning.

903
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:31,320
You would see how they looked when I started and how they look now and you would say, wow,

904
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:35,720
this drug problem in this country is really a big fucking problem and we need to really

905
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:36,800
get a handle on it.

906
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:42,560
We're giving billions of dollars for wars for Ukraine and for Israel, but we need to

907
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:48,320
take that money out of that military budget and put it towards our own country and figure

908
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:53,600
out what the fuck is going on with these drugs and get it taken care of and get these dealers

909
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:56,080
off the street once and for all.

910
01:01:56,080 --> 01:02:02,280
Forget wokeism, get them the hell off the street.

911
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:10,600
I am thinking that if we had a more mature society and a better set of people working

912
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:16,880
on publications in this country who actually were motivated and who were driven by the

913
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:24,600
need to educate and show what's really going on instead of whatever bullshit political

914
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:31,280
agendas they have and trying elitist mentality, you'd want to see all the pictures.

915
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:36,200
You'd want to see how does this person look now?

916
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:44,500
But if I take that picture of how they look now, it's viewed as an exploitation and it's

917
01:02:44,500 --> 01:02:53,840
also so bad because taking the picture falls on deaf ears here because all their humanity

918
01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:58,160
matters from where they started out when I photographed them initially to where they

919
01:02:58,160 --> 01:02:59,160
are now.

920
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:05,320
I mean, I photographed a couple of people in their worst moments like Bethany in New

921
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:06,320
York City.

922
01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:10,720
She's transgender and I've been photographing her for years.

923
01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:15,840
But a lot of people, they don't want to see what are the real results of drugs and mental

924
01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:19,260
illness and neglect and all these other things.

925
01:03:19,260 --> 01:03:24,840
People wind up in a very, very, very deteriorated state.

926
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:28,840
And I think it's important to see that.

927
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:35,920
I don't know that it should be put on social media in their worst state unless that person's

928
01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:39,760
okay with it.

929
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:43,640
A lot of my worst pictures I don't have on there.

930
01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:48,320
And believe it or not, some of my worst pictures have gone to people's parents who wanted them

931
01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:53,000
and who are grateful for them because they wanted to see what their kids are now and

932
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:55,760
they were so happy to have these pictures.

933
01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:57,120
Their kids sent them.

934
01:03:57,120 --> 01:04:02,040
Like I show them their pictures and I send them to their parents right on the street

935
01:04:02,040 --> 01:04:03,040
with them.

936
01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:05,720
And they're rough pictures.

937
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:13,880
But you have a situation where we don't have an atmosphere that's conducive to seeing all

938
01:04:13,880 --> 01:04:17,200
that reality.

939
01:04:17,200 --> 01:04:20,840
It's being hidden.

940
01:04:20,840 --> 01:04:30,040
In Kensington, I feel like you just have to go for it all.

941
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:34,840
The thing about Trank that's so scary, when you talk about the before and after shots,

942
01:04:34,840 --> 01:04:37,160
I think of the faces of meth, they call it.

943
01:04:37,160 --> 01:04:41,000
I think they were all mugshots, but it was a side by side.

944
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:42,000
But it is.

945
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:43,000
It shows the absolute deterioration.

946
01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:45,120
You look at this and go, oh my God, how horrific.

947
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:46,600
The skeletons, they got no teeth.

948
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:48,680
I mean, it's awful.

949
01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:55,540
But the problem is a lot of the drugs that we run on out there don't devastate the human

950
01:04:55,540 --> 01:04:58,080
body and then kill someone quickly.

951
01:04:58,080 --> 01:05:00,400
Cocaine is your septum starts deteriorating.

952
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:02,120
You're going to have cardiac issues.

953
01:05:02,120 --> 01:05:05,840
Heroin, depending on if you're eating, you may lose some weight.

954
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:09,240
But ultimately, if you don't take too much, you're going to carry on breathing.

955
01:05:09,240 --> 01:05:14,480
You're not going to have some horrendous, grotesque health issues with it.

956
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:18,640
Alcoholism, you can drink yourself to death, but it's going to take decades and decades.

957
01:05:18,640 --> 01:05:22,840
But meth before and then now, you know, tranc.

958
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:29,120
I mean, the devastating impact on the actual human body, and especially tranc, these open

959
01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:30,120
wounds.

960
01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:31,880
I mean, it's so, so sad.

961
01:05:31,880 --> 01:05:39,440
And seeing something deteriorate a human being so rapidly needs to be front and center because

962
01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:41,380
these are our brothers and sisters.

963
01:05:41,380 --> 01:05:45,780
These were kids that once we were playing with in a kindergarten somewhere.

964
01:05:45,780 --> 01:05:51,360
And now we're working in the city and this person's living under a bridge rotting literally.

965
01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:56,560
So I think that, you know, that we're pushing against something that I observed years ago,

966
01:05:56,560 --> 01:06:03,080
which is you can watch an action film on old American cable television and Rambo will slaughter,

967
01:06:03,080 --> 01:06:05,420
you know, 100 Viet Cong.

968
01:06:05,420 --> 01:06:08,200
But then a woman's nipple will be blurred out.

969
01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:11,440
You know, we've got such a bizarre kind of.

970
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:12,680
That's exactly right.

971
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:20,560
So we can look at pictures of flayed children on Instagram, but we can't show a nipple.

972
01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:21,680
Right.

973
01:06:21,680 --> 01:06:27,040
And I can't show what it really looks like to have a tranquil on Instagram.

974
01:06:27,040 --> 01:06:33,020
If I show that, you know, I mean, these tranquil ones are really, really bad.

975
01:06:33,020 --> 01:06:34,320
They're almost like war wounds.

976
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:36,800
Some of them are so bad, you'd be shocked.

977
01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:38,240
They are like war wounds.

978
01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:40,620
They're unbelievably bad.

979
01:06:40,620 --> 01:06:44,200
I have something on my website that I'm not going to put on Instagram.

980
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:53,580
You know, there are limits to what can go on Instagram, but I think that it's so important

981
01:06:53,580 --> 01:06:56,360
to show what people are going through.

982
01:06:56,360 --> 01:07:02,160
You know, in Kensington, you know, people are out in public doing this stuff.

983
01:07:02,160 --> 01:07:04,340
They're being filmed by YouTubers.

984
01:07:04,340 --> 01:07:05,480
And that's a real issue.

985
01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:09,760
I was just looking at some YouTube videos yesterday because I wanted to see if certain

986
01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:13,120
people were still alive because I can't find them.

987
01:07:13,120 --> 01:07:14,120
I've been driving.

988
01:07:14,120 --> 01:07:15,600
I can't find them.

989
01:07:15,600 --> 01:07:18,800
I don't want to walk on the street right now and ask around.

990
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:25,120
I'm not, I've done this now for so long that I've, I'm just not, I hate to say this.

991
01:07:25,120 --> 01:07:28,000
I'm not interested in interacting right now.

992
01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:31,080
It's been so difficult.

993
01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:36,560
I've been exposed to so much fentanyl, you know, a lot of fentanyl smoke, a lot of stuff

994
01:07:36,560 --> 01:07:47,720
on me, you know, I've been in some very dangerous situations and I, I've created a pretty extensive

995
01:07:47,720 --> 01:07:51,960
body of work there and I don't know how much more I can add to it.

996
01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:59,840
And I don't feel the compulsion to do it in that way right now.

997
01:07:59,840 --> 01:08:03,920
But I really want to know what's happened to some people.

998
01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:09,200
And the other issue for me is because of the time of year it's cold, they're burning fires

999
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:16,120
and I have asthma and the fires they burn are wood and plastic and detritus and it's

1000
01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:17,960
so noxious.

1001
01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:24,640
I mean, you'll have people passed out around a fire that's got so much black smoke and

1002
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:25,800
I can't tolerate that.

1003
01:08:25,800 --> 01:08:27,000
I'll get really sick.

1004
01:08:27,000 --> 01:08:32,080
So in the winter it's, it's really hard for me to hang out.

1005
01:08:32,080 --> 01:08:37,840
And in Philadelphia, in Kensington, you actually see bonfires on the street.

1006
01:08:37,840 --> 01:08:38,920
It's unbelievable.

1007
01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:43,760
It's like a neighborhood that the city just decided to just say, do whatever the fuck

1008
01:08:43,760 --> 01:08:44,760
you want.

1009
01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:45,760
We don't care.

1010
01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:46,760
We don't care about the neighbors.

1011
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:49,320
We don't care about the kids that live in the neighborhood that they're getting exposed

1012
01:08:49,320 --> 01:08:55,480
to this awful smoke, these drug dealers build bonfires in these neighborhoods, burning plastic

1013
01:08:55,480 --> 01:09:01,760
and car seats and all kinds of crap.

1014
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:02,840
And they're so out of it.

1015
01:09:02,840 --> 01:09:06,960
Some of them, they're not understanding what they're doing to themselves, but they're also

1016
01:09:06,960 --> 01:09:10,480
doing it to the neighborhood and nobody does anything about it.

1017
01:09:10,480 --> 01:09:11,680
They're allowed to do whatever they want.

1018
01:09:11,680 --> 01:09:15,500
If you set a fire in my neighborhood, you get arrested.

1019
01:09:15,500 --> 01:09:20,800
But I think it's really important to photograph all this stuff, but I'm doing it, you know,

1020
01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:25,040
but in the meantime, I don't know what's happened to some of the people I've photographed.

1021
01:09:25,040 --> 01:09:29,600
So I went and I looked on YouTube, recent YouTube to see if I could find any of them,

1022
01:09:29,600 --> 01:09:30,840
you know, cause I can't find them.

1023
01:09:30,840 --> 01:09:36,760
I've been looking and looking and I don't know if they're dead or they just moved on.

1024
01:09:36,760 --> 01:09:39,880
There's just a few of them that I can't find.

1025
01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:47,920
And I also found myself in a weird situation, you know, I was very uncomfortable in and

1026
01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:49,520
I decided to pull away from it.

1027
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:53,320
I didn't, didn't like what I was seeing.

1028
01:09:53,320 --> 01:10:00,360
A lot of the people that are out on the street there, they're not just victims of drug abuse,

1029
01:10:00,360 --> 01:10:02,240
like of addiction.

1030
01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:07,440
It's not like you can look at it and say they're victims.

1031
01:10:07,440 --> 01:10:09,240
They've been abused.

1032
01:10:09,240 --> 01:10:11,320
They're traumatized.

1033
01:10:11,320 --> 01:10:17,240
Many of them are, but they're also victimizing each other.

1034
01:10:17,240 --> 01:10:20,020
They're victimizing the neighborhood.

1035
01:10:20,020 --> 01:10:26,360
There are businesses like dozens that have had to close because of theft.

1036
01:10:26,360 --> 01:10:28,980
There are drug dealers out there.

1037
01:10:28,980 --> 01:10:34,520
Whatever they went through in their childhood and whatever social ills have, whatever, they're

1038
01:10:34,520 --> 01:10:36,720
still destroying the neighborhood.

1039
01:10:36,720 --> 01:10:40,600
They're viciously abusing a lot of the people who are addicted.

1040
01:10:40,600 --> 01:10:45,120
There is this very strong culture of abuse that runs through Kensington and I've written

1041
01:10:45,120 --> 01:10:47,440
about it and talked about it.

1042
01:10:47,440 --> 01:10:52,440
And Philadelphia, the media here has completely abrogated their responsibilities.

1043
01:10:52,440 --> 01:10:53,440
They don't talk about it.

1044
01:10:53,440 --> 01:10:55,800
They don't try to find out what's going on.

1045
01:10:55,800 --> 01:10:56,800
They're clueless.

1046
01:10:56,800 --> 01:10:57,800
They don't know.

1047
01:10:57,800 --> 01:11:02,120
They don't want to know and they're terrified to tell the stories for their own politically

1048
01:11:02,120 --> 01:11:03,600
correct motivations.

1049
01:11:03,600 --> 01:11:09,640
I can't figure out what happened to journalism in the United States, but in Philly there

1050
01:11:09,640 --> 01:11:13,180
is no journalism.

1051
01:11:13,180 --> 01:11:20,320
So you have a neighborhood that's literally on fire.

1052
01:11:20,320 --> 01:11:23,240
Trank is a component of fentanyl.

1053
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:28,280
It's fentanyl and they mix trank in there to extend it and to get people really fucked

1054
01:11:28,280 --> 01:11:30,960
up and whatever.

1055
01:11:30,960 --> 01:11:33,000
They want to get them high really quickly.

1056
01:11:33,000 --> 01:11:37,840
They don't want it to last too long and they want them to be able to afford it and they

1057
01:11:37,840 --> 01:11:40,080
want to make money off of them.

1058
01:11:40,080 --> 01:11:47,520
But a lot of these people I found that I photographed were doing really bad things.

1059
01:11:47,520 --> 01:11:54,820
So I've told stories of theirs that I thought were important and that needed to be heard,

1060
01:11:54,820 --> 01:12:01,420
but there's also another side to the story about what a lot of them have done to each

1061
01:12:01,420 --> 01:12:09,200
other, to family members, tried to do to me, done to other photographers.

1062
01:12:09,200 --> 01:12:13,040
There's a lot of things I can't talk about.

1063
01:12:13,040 --> 01:12:20,800
But I've done a lot of pictures of people and you have to believe in them in some respects.

1064
01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:26,080
You want to illuminate the problem, but right now I'm illuminating a neighborhood.

1065
01:12:26,080 --> 01:12:29,360
I'm still sort of doing it.

1066
01:12:29,360 --> 01:12:38,960
But I found that there's a lot of reasons why people are on the street and there's a

1067
01:12:38,960 --> 01:12:42,680
lot of criminal activity going on.

1068
01:12:42,680 --> 01:12:46,520
They get victimized and they get treated very poorly and very abused.

1069
01:12:46,520 --> 01:12:49,520
They're very abused a lot of them.

1070
01:12:49,520 --> 01:12:58,080
But there's a lot of things that they do to their family and friends and it's not just

1071
01:12:58,080 --> 01:13:06,040
a group of people who should be coddled and pitied.

1072
01:13:06,040 --> 01:13:07,800
There's people taking advantage.

1073
01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:09,280
There's people lying.

1074
01:13:09,280 --> 01:13:12,640
There's people setting other people up.

1075
01:13:12,640 --> 01:13:17,240
There's people doing...

1076
01:13:17,240 --> 01:13:25,320
It's very difficult not to unravel.

1077
01:13:25,320 --> 01:13:29,640
I'm always curious about solutions, especially from people who have traveled.

1078
01:13:29,640 --> 01:13:32,840
For example, I went to Portugal.

1079
01:13:32,840 --> 01:13:37,880
My family moved to Portugal a long time ago and I sat with the man who spearheaded decriminalization

1080
01:13:37,880 --> 01:13:39,480
of addiction in Portugal.

1081
01:13:39,480 --> 01:13:41,960
It doesn't mean you can go into shops and buy it.

1082
01:13:41,960 --> 01:13:43,360
It's the addicts are brought in.

1083
01:13:43,360 --> 01:13:44,880
They're educated on resources.

1084
01:13:44,880 --> 01:13:50,240
They put a huge amount of money into mental health counseling, addiction counseling, job

1085
01:13:50,240 --> 01:13:51,240
creation.

1086
01:13:51,240 --> 01:13:52,240
Yes.

1087
01:13:52,240 --> 01:13:56,640
To me, that's one of the problems that we have with the addiction crisis here is that

1088
01:13:56,640 --> 01:13:59,840
to feed your addiction in America, you've got to go to the underworld because we've

1089
01:13:59,840 --> 01:14:02,360
stigmatized addiction.

1090
01:14:02,360 --> 01:14:07,120
With you traveling around the world, are there any other things that you've seen somewhere

1091
01:14:07,120 --> 01:14:13,400
else that works well or at least other perspectives on this issue that you yourself are seeing

1092
01:14:13,400 --> 01:14:20,640
through the lens of your camera that you think if we tried a different philosophy in this

1093
01:14:20,640 --> 01:14:26,120
country, maybe we could make a dent at the nucleus of addiction, not shuffling them off

1094
01:14:26,120 --> 01:14:30,600
to another jurisdiction so that that neighborhood can forget about it, but actually addressing

1095
01:14:30,600 --> 01:14:35,600
the root cause of why so many people are on the streets and therefore, as you just described,

1096
01:14:35,600 --> 01:14:42,640
that kind of moral spiral downwards as addiction so often pulls people through?

1097
01:14:42,640 --> 01:14:51,760
After seeing what I've seen, I have a really conservative outlook on what I think.

1098
01:14:51,760 --> 01:14:52,760
There's a lot of far left.

1099
01:14:52,760 --> 01:14:59,360
I never understood what far left meant and moderate conservatives and conservative.

1100
01:14:59,360 --> 01:15:01,680
I am not a far left person.

1101
01:15:01,680 --> 01:15:06,920
I do not believe that I think the far left has got control of Kensington in a lot of

1102
01:15:06,920 --> 01:15:08,280
ways.

1103
01:15:08,280 --> 01:15:18,440
I believe that harm reduction is a science and it's a medical protocol and that's important,

1104
01:15:18,440 --> 01:15:24,040
but harm reduction in Kensington and harm reduction on the street a lot of times is

1105
01:15:24,040 --> 01:15:25,680
getting people rehab.

1106
01:15:25,680 --> 01:15:26,840
They can help get them rehab.

1107
01:15:26,840 --> 01:15:27,840
They give them needles.

1108
01:15:27,840 --> 01:15:32,960
They give them clean paraphernalia to use, crack pipes, meth pipes, chapstick, anything

1109
01:15:32,960 --> 01:15:38,000
you need to keep you comfortable while you're getting high except the drug itself, clothes,

1110
01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:41,320
food, wound care.

1111
01:15:41,320 --> 01:15:47,560
Harm reduction is harming a lot of people in my opinion.

1112
01:15:47,560 --> 01:15:53,900
I think that the only way to get this in hand in Kensington and generally is to provide

1113
01:15:53,900 --> 01:16:01,000
clean needles because you need to do that, provide wound care, get them into hospitals

1114
01:16:01,000 --> 01:16:06,000
if they're willing to go, get them into rehab and that's it.

1115
01:16:06,000 --> 01:16:13,800
No food, no clothes, no place to go to take a shower, no place to go to get your hair

1116
01:16:13,800 --> 01:16:20,680
cut, mobile haircut, no donations because they come to Kensington knowing they can get

1117
01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:23,100
high for $5 bags.

1118
01:16:23,100 --> 01:16:28,040
They come to Kensington knowing they can boost which is shoplifting in the neighborhood.

1119
01:16:28,040 --> 01:16:30,400
They come to Kensington knowing harm reduction is there.

1120
01:16:30,400 --> 01:16:35,760
We'll provide them with food, with clothes, with everything they need to get high.

1121
01:16:35,760 --> 01:16:37,360
They can go in and get a shower.

1122
01:16:37,360 --> 01:16:40,280
A lot of these harm reductions play favorites.

1123
01:16:40,280 --> 01:16:42,040
Some of the harm reductions play favorites.

1124
01:16:42,040 --> 01:16:45,480
There's one in particular which I won't name which gave me a really hard time.

1125
01:16:45,480 --> 01:16:50,520
They're really, really awful and they play, I hear horrible things about some of them

1126
01:16:50,520 --> 01:16:54,240
from people on the street who can't stand them but they need them.

1127
01:16:54,240 --> 01:16:55,240
They need the needles.

1128
01:16:55,240 --> 01:16:56,240
They need the clothes.

1129
01:16:56,240 --> 01:17:00,080
They need to use the bathroom but there's all kinds of issues with harm reduction.

1130
01:17:00,080 --> 01:17:06,280
There's all kinds of weird situations that can grow up with people in harm reduction

1131
01:17:06,280 --> 01:17:13,240
who themselves are really in need of therapy, some of them.

1132
01:17:13,240 --> 01:17:18,180
But if you didn't have any of these things, you wouldn't have kids from the suburbs taking

1133
01:17:18,180 --> 01:17:24,120
an Uber to get to Kensington to go on a bender and die on the street.

1134
01:17:24,120 --> 01:17:30,040
If there was nothing there, man, nothing there but the basic thing, we're going to take care

1135
01:17:30,040 --> 01:17:31,040
of your tracheal wound.

1136
01:17:31,040 --> 01:17:33,240
We're going to send you to the hospital.

1137
01:17:33,240 --> 01:17:37,880
We're going to give you needles because we don't want to risk needle borne illnesses.

1138
01:17:37,880 --> 01:17:41,320
We will do the bare minimum but there is no soup here.

1139
01:17:41,320 --> 01:17:42,780
There is no crackers.

1140
01:17:42,780 --> 01:17:44,240
There are no muffins.

1141
01:17:44,240 --> 01:17:46,280
There's no clean clothes.

1142
01:17:46,280 --> 01:17:52,000
There is no church group coming on Saturday to give a beautiful meal and a sermon.

1143
01:17:52,000 --> 01:17:53,000
Nothing.

1144
01:17:53,000 --> 01:17:56,480
You're going to have a whole lot of people rethink whether or not they're going to go

1145
01:17:56,480 --> 01:18:00,560
on a bender in Kensington because they go on a bender and they never go home.

1146
01:18:00,560 --> 01:18:05,320
I talk to many, many people who have a home who are on the street in Kensington and they

1147
01:18:05,320 --> 01:18:08,960
used to go on the weekends and then they were there a few days a week and then they're there

1148
01:18:08,960 --> 01:18:13,600
five days a week and then now they're living there because their family won't take them

1149
01:18:13,600 --> 01:18:15,560
back because they're a mess.

1150
01:18:15,560 --> 01:18:16,560
They're dirty.

1151
01:18:16,560 --> 01:18:17,560
They've got a wound.

1152
01:18:17,560 --> 01:18:20,560
They're stealing the TV.

1153
01:18:20,560 --> 01:18:26,000
So when I first got there, I was volunteering with harm reduction.

1154
01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:29,520
Then they began to realize that I was photographing realistically and they rejected me.

1155
01:18:29,520 --> 01:18:33,000
They were like, oh, we, they started to get mean and weird and I was like, fuck you.

1156
01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:38,200
I don't want to deal with these people because they're almost like a cult because for some

1157
01:18:38,200 --> 01:18:41,040
of the harm reduction people, it's their thing.

1158
01:18:41,040 --> 01:18:44,680
You know, like you raise puppies or you, you save animals.

1159
01:18:44,680 --> 01:18:46,800
Every Saturday they have a place to go.

1160
01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:49,880
They have a habit of giving out all this food.

1161
01:18:49,880 --> 01:18:52,360
They go and there's some really good people involved.

1162
01:18:52,360 --> 01:18:57,000
They really, really want to help, but they're misguided because they're keeping these people

1163
01:18:57,000 --> 01:18:58,000
there.

1164
01:18:58,000 --> 01:19:04,120
You have to do everything in your power to tell them this is a shit life.

1165
01:19:04,120 --> 01:19:06,000
This neighborhood sucks.

1166
01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:08,040
There's nothing good to eat here.

1167
01:19:08,040 --> 01:19:14,700
You're going to get your ass kicked.

1168
01:19:14,700 --> 01:19:19,240
People should not be allowed to inject on the street.

1169
01:19:19,240 --> 01:19:23,840
They should not be allowed to burn fires on the street.

1170
01:19:23,840 --> 01:19:28,440
The drug dealers should not be allowed to terrorize a corner.

1171
01:19:28,440 --> 01:19:31,320
They should not be allowed to terrorize me if I get out of my car.

1172
01:19:31,320 --> 01:19:33,440
I have to ask permission.

1173
01:19:33,440 --> 01:19:37,640
They should not be allowed to stand there with guns.

1174
01:19:37,640 --> 01:19:44,160
There needs to be real policing, effective policing, effective city leadership in all

1175
01:19:44,160 --> 01:19:47,680
cities in the United States where we have this problem.

1176
01:19:47,680 --> 01:19:54,920
But harm reduction as practiced on the streets is the biggest problem.

1177
01:19:54,920 --> 01:20:02,360
And people need to sit down together and get a plan and tell these church groups, everybody

1178
01:20:02,360 --> 01:20:04,700
don't come down here.

1179
01:20:04,700 --> 01:20:09,680
Let them suffer and they will go into rehab or they will die.

1180
01:20:09,680 --> 01:20:13,520
But if they're not going to go into rehab, they're not going to do it anyway.

1181
01:20:13,520 --> 01:20:19,560
You're prolonging the agony and you're destroying the neighborhood by enabling this behavior.

1182
01:20:19,560 --> 01:20:23,360
And that is a hard statement to make because a lot of people disagree with it and I will

1183
01:20:23,360 --> 01:20:28,320
get totally, a lot of addicts actually agree with me.

1184
01:20:28,320 --> 01:20:34,520
They've said, for my stern piece, the interviewer, they've said to him, they're enabling us

1185
01:20:34,520 --> 01:20:35,520
to be here.

1186
01:20:35,520 --> 01:20:42,120
Well, I think as you've described as well, for that moment, you're making it more comfortable,

1187
01:20:42,120 --> 01:20:43,880
but you're not getting to the root cause.

1188
01:20:43,880 --> 01:20:45,200
You're not addressing the addiction.

1189
01:20:45,200 --> 01:20:46,640
You're not addressing the mental health.

1190
01:20:46,640 --> 01:20:49,760
Again, not all of them, a lot of them are going to have trauma.

1191
01:20:49,760 --> 01:20:54,320
And if not initially, then certainly after years of being an addict, you're not going

1192
01:20:54,320 --> 01:21:00,640
to have the path that leads to a roof over your head and a job and all the tools that

1193
01:21:00,640 --> 01:21:04,160
a functioning member of a community needs.

1194
01:21:04,160 --> 01:21:10,080
So and I've said this, I've had people kind of push back on the prohibition conversation

1195
01:21:10,080 --> 01:21:14,080
and they tried it in wherever Seattle, they didn't.

1196
01:21:14,080 --> 01:21:15,380
They legalized marijuana.

1197
01:21:15,380 --> 01:21:19,120
That's not removing drug prohibition for an addict.

1198
01:21:19,120 --> 01:21:21,820
Now I'm not talking about smugglers and sellers.

1199
01:21:21,820 --> 01:21:26,080
Those get the full fucking force of the law in Portugal, for example.

1200
01:21:26,080 --> 01:21:31,180
But the addict who's just simply doing whatever it is to get their next hit, that's the one

1201
01:21:31,180 --> 01:21:35,880
where you're not going to get all of them, but a large portion, if you tell them, look,

1202
01:21:35,880 --> 01:21:39,680
you're not going to get arrested and we have got these resources and this is what we didn't

1203
01:21:39,680 --> 01:21:40,680
do in America.

1204
01:21:40,680 --> 01:21:45,120
We didn't take the money from the war on drugs and put it into proactive solutions.

1205
01:21:45,120 --> 01:21:48,760
We just changed laws and put almost nothing to support it.

1206
01:21:48,760 --> 01:21:53,920
So I understand where you're coming from because it is a form of enabling when we're not doing

1207
01:21:53,920 --> 01:21:56,480
anything to address the root cause.

1208
01:21:56,480 --> 01:22:00,840
It's the same as modern medicine at the moment, chronic disease medicine in America.

1209
01:22:00,840 --> 01:22:02,240
Like you've got hypertension.

1210
01:22:02,240 --> 01:22:03,760
All right, here's a bunch of pills.

1211
01:22:03,760 --> 01:22:05,440
I haven't told you to change the way you eat.

1212
01:22:05,440 --> 01:22:06,440
Haven't told you exercise.

1213
01:22:06,440 --> 01:22:07,440
That's exactly right.

1214
01:22:07,440 --> 01:22:11,320
I told you you're going to be on those statins for the rest of your life or whatever drug

1215
01:22:11,320 --> 01:22:12,320
you're on.

1216
01:22:12,320 --> 01:22:19,880
There's a lot of old people who are on cholesterol lowering medication, blood pressure lowering

1217
01:22:19,880 --> 01:22:20,880
medication.

1218
01:22:20,880 --> 01:22:22,680
They're eating the worst food.

1219
01:22:22,680 --> 01:22:24,440
But my cholesterol is 110.

1220
01:22:24,440 --> 01:22:29,280
I'm like, no, you could still give yourself colorectal cancer.

1221
01:22:29,280 --> 01:22:33,440
You could still give yourself all kinds of other illnesses from eating this crap just

1222
01:22:33,440 --> 01:22:37,120
because your cholesterol is low doesn't mean that the whole problem.

1223
01:22:37,120 --> 01:22:38,120
That's the whole problem.

1224
01:22:38,120 --> 01:22:45,560
You have people that I get what you're saying, but you know, it's very hard.

1225
01:22:45,560 --> 01:22:51,340
A lot of parents down there, there's people down there that are in such rough shape.

1226
01:22:51,340 --> 01:22:55,280
They can't get a job and they can't boost because they can't go into a store.

1227
01:22:55,280 --> 01:22:56,280
Nobody will let them go in.

1228
01:22:56,280 --> 01:22:58,440
I mean, they're like covered in pus.

1229
01:22:58,440 --> 01:23:02,720
There are people covered in pus from their tranquil.

1230
01:23:02,720 --> 01:23:09,640
I have photos of a couple of people.

1231
01:23:09,640 --> 01:23:10,640
That's the reality.

1232
01:23:10,640 --> 01:23:15,000
It is not uncommon for them to be covered in pus.

1233
01:23:15,000 --> 01:23:17,680
How are they going to get money for drugs?

1234
01:23:17,680 --> 01:23:20,080
How they have cash app.

1235
01:23:20,080 --> 01:23:25,700
They might have to borrow somebody's phone and they, they text or call their parents

1236
01:23:25,700 --> 01:23:33,480
and their parents throw $15 into cash app or $20 and that's how they get high.

1237
01:23:33,480 --> 01:23:35,760
And I've made phone calls to people's parents.

1238
01:23:35,760 --> 01:23:36,760
Can I use your phone?

1239
01:23:36,760 --> 01:23:42,280
I always let them use my phone and the parent sounds really devastated or really tired or

1240
01:23:42,280 --> 01:23:44,640
really fed up and like, why are you calling me?

1241
01:23:44,640 --> 01:23:47,000
I don't want to give you money for this.

1242
01:23:47,000 --> 01:23:48,720
Sometimes they won't answer.

1243
01:23:48,720 --> 01:23:52,640
Call many parents, half don't answer.

1244
01:23:52,640 --> 01:23:54,080
Okay.

1245
01:23:54,080 --> 01:23:59,220
And then, you know, they'll have to use somebody's phone for the cash app.

1246
01:23:59,220 --> 01:24:03,080
So they'll use, you know, one guy used a drug dealer's phone and drug dealers right there.

1247
01:24:03,080 --> 01:24:13,160
And so the mother sent the drug dealer $15 for her son, but the drug dealer kept five

1248
01:24:13,160 --> 01:24:20,480
for himself and gave the son $10 to get high.

1249
01:24:20,480 --> 01:24:22,600
There's another racket.

1250
01:24:22,600 --> 01:24:28,280
People don't know they're enabling this, but young women will call their family and tell

1251
01:24:28,280 --> 01:24:32,320
them that they're being beaten.

1252
01:24:32,320 --> 01:24:39,280
Like they'll be with guys, they'll FaceTime them and a guy will be beating them supposedly

1253
01:24:39,280 --> 01:24:41,680
and they will extort money from a family member.

1254
01:24:41,680 --> 01:24:45,640
The guy will say, give me 200 or $300 or I'm going to beat the shit out of your daughter

1255
01:24:45,640 --> 01:24:48,320
right now.

1256
01:24:48,320 --> 01:24:49,960
And they extort money.

1257
01:24:49,960 --> 01:24:53,080
I know people that that's happened to.

1258
01:24:53,080 --> 01:24:58,840
And I've listened to parents tell me that it happened.

1259
01:24:58,840 --> 01:25:02,720
And they didn't know that it's a scam, that other people have done it.

1260
01:25:02,720 --> 01:25:03,720
And it's a thing.

1261
01:25:03,720 --> 01:25:04,720
You know what I mean?

1262
01:25:04,720 --> 01:25:07,560
You can't tell a parent, well, that that's a scam.

1263
01:25:07,560 --> 01:25:08,560
You know what I mean?

1264
01:25:08,560 --> 01:25:12,160
That's they get one or two guys and they're all in on it and they all get the money and

1265
01:25:12,160 --> 01:25:16,020
they all go get tons of drugs.

1266
01:25:16,020 --> 01:25:18,520
So there's different ways that people are enabled.

1267
01:25:18,520 --> 01:25:21,760
You know, when my son was really involved in drugs, he's not anymore.

1268
01:25:21,760 --> 01:25:25,820
He's been clean for a year, but I gave him $20 a day.

1269
01:25:25,820 --> 01:25:29,480
He told me it was for food.

1270
01:25:29,480 --> 01:25:31,360
Sometimes it was 15.

1271
01:25:31,360 --> 01:25:34,200
I knew it was drugs, but I had to give him money for food.

1272
01:25:34,200 --> 01:25:42,800
He was not, he was living in a, a special home for youth who had problems.

1273
01:25:42,800 --> 01:25:50,360
I threw him out because he was really, really, really, really abusive and stealing.

1274
01:25:50,360 --> 01:25:51,520
But I enabled it.

1275
01:25:51,520 --> 01:25:55,480
He was using a lot of that money for drugs.

1276
01:25:55,480 --> 01:26:01,360
You know, it's really hard when you know your kid is thin or they don't have any money,

1277
01:26:01,360 --> 01:26:08,880
even if your kid is a real, real shit head, it's really hard to walk away from your kid

1278
01:26:08,880 --> 01:26:13,000
to have your kid call and say, mom, I'm really dope sick.

1279
01:26:13,000 --> 01:26:15,040
You know, they're calling their mom in front of me.

1280
01:26:15,040 --> 01:26:16,240
I'm dope sick.

1281
01:26:16,240 --> 01:26:17,440
Mom, please.

1282
01:26:17,440 --> 01:26:18,520
I don't want to do a date.

1283
01:26:18,520 --> 01:26:20,240
I had a girl do this.

1284
01:26:20,240 --> 01:26:21,720
Mom, please.

1285
01:26:21,720 --> 01:26:24,080
If you don't give me money, I'm going to have to do a date.

1286
01:26:24,080 --> 01:26:31,240
A date is prostitution and in Kensington is walking up and down the street looking not

1287
01:26:31,240 --> 01:26:34,400
real great and having some loser pick you up.

1288
01:26:34,400 --> 01:26:35,740
I'm sorry.

1289
01:26:35,740 --> 01:26:41,400
Some of these girls are in horrible condition and these guys pick them up.

1290
01:26:41,400 --> 01:26:48,160
It's God knows what's going on there.

1291
01:26:48,160 --> 01:26:51,800
There are some girls that are very attractive, but that's uncommon.

1292
01:26:51,800 --> 01:26:55,400
A lot of them are not in good shape.

1293
01:26:55,400 --> 01:27:01,800
I photographed a good handful of them who have really deteriorated.

1294
01:27:01,800 --> 01:27:06,200
So the daughter will say, mom, I don't want to do a date, mom, you know what happened?

1295
01:27:06,200 --> 01:27:10,440
My friend, this guy beat her in the head and then they raped her.

1296
01:27:10,440 --> 01:27:12,860
Mom, I don't want to do a date.

1297
01:27:12,860 --> 01:27:14,080
I don't want to do a date.

1298
01:27:14,080 --> 01:27:19,760
I don't want to get raped and they don't, but they're pulling this on their mom and

1299
01:27:19,760 --> 01:27:21,760
their mom saying, no, I can't give you money.

1300
01:27:21,760 --> 01:27:22,760
You're going to use it.

1301
01:27:22,760 --> 01:27:23,760
I can't do it.

1302
01:27:23,760 --> 01:27:24,760
I can't do it.

1303
01:27:24,760 --> 01:27:28,040
And then they wear them down and I'm standing there holding the phone.

1304
01:27:28,040 --> 01:27:32,880
They wear them down and they're like, all right, I'll give you $30 and they send it

1305
01:27:32,880 --> 01:27:35,040
to cash app.

1306
01:27:35,040 --> 01:27:38,640
The call closes off and the girl literally walks away from me.

1307
01:27:38,640 --> 01:27:39,640
Doesn't say thank you.

1308
01:27:39,640 --> 01:27:40,640
Nothing.

1309
01:27:40,640 --> 01:27:41,680
Just like it never happened.

1310
01:27:41,680 --> 01:27:45,360
She just goes off to retrieve the money.

1311
01:27:45,360 --> 01:27:50,560
Obviously, that's the absolute desperation that's going on.

1312
01:27:50,560 --> 01:27:55,640
As far as hope though, have there been any people that you met during their addiction,

1313
01:27:55,640 --> 01:27:58,800
during their homelessness that managed to find their way out?

1314
01:27:58,800 --> 01:28:02,000
There would be, I guess, a quote unquote success story.

1315
01:28:02,000 --> 01:28:03,920
I have not met anyone.

1316
01:28:03,920 --> 01:28:09,040
I have heard of someone who got clean, supposedly Lily with the dark hair.

1317
01:28:09,040 --> 01:28:11,960
I photographed her a couple of times.

1318
01:28:11,960 --> 01:28:17,560
I heard that she got clean and then somebody said that she came back out on the street

1319
01:28:17,560 --> 01:28:22,200
and OD'd five times in a row and then I haven't seen her.

1320
01:28:22,200 --> 01:28:26,480
I think she probably came back, OD'd a bunch of times and then got off the street again.

1321
01:28:26,480 --> 01:28:28,800
I have not seen her.

1322
01:28:28,800 --> 01:28:34,280
Otherwise, I'm sure somebody's gotten clean.

1323
01:28:34,280 --> 01:28:40,360
But of the people that I photographed, there's only one story and that is the very first

1324
01:28:40,360 --> 01:28:42,320
people I photographed in 2018.

1325
01:28:42,320 --> 01:28:43,720
I came to Kensington.

1326
01:28:43,720 --> 01:28:49,640
I never really went into Kensington, but I went into the outskirts, kind of where Fishtown

1327
01:28:49,640 --> 01:28:55,760
and Aramingo Avenue before it gets into Kensington, it's kind of like an out of the way area.

1328
01:28:55,760 --> 01:28:59,120
A lot of people panhandle on the highway.

1329
01:28:59,120 --> 01:29:00,760
What are you doing?

1330
01:29:00,760 --> 01:29:04,360
A lot of people panhandle on the highway.

1331
01:29:04,360 --> 01:29:11,240
I found this amazing couple, Katie and Mike.

1332
01:29:11,240 --> 01:29:15,200
She was really cute, a really cute thin girl and they were addicted and they were very

1333
01:29:15,200 --> 01:29:17,320
young and I photographed them.

1334
01:29:17,320 --> 01:29:19,880
And then I lost touch with them.

1335
01:29:19,880 --> 01:29:22,640
We called a few times and I lost touch.

1336
01:29:22,640 --> 01:29:28,120
I came to Kensington five years, four years later to do these pictures and this girl pulled

1337
01:29:28,120 --> 01:29:29,120
up in a car.

1338
01:29:29,120 --> 01:29:30,120
I didn't recognize her.

1339
01:29:30,120 --> 01:29:33,440
Some plump woman, young woman said, hey, I'm Katie.

1340
01:29:33,440 --> 01:29:35,320
And I'm like, who the fuck are you?

1341
01:29:35,320 --> 01:29:37,520
What the fuck is this woman is?

1342
01:29:37,520 --> 01:29:38,520
She was so different.

1343
01:29:38,520 --> 01:29:42,840
Her and Mike got clean and they have an apartment in Kensington.

1344
01:29:42,840 --> 01:29:45,160
They're living in Kensington because it's all they can afford.

1345
01:29:45,160 --> 01:29:46,360
It's what they can do.

1346
01:29:46,360 --> 01:29:48,840
But they're both clean.

1347
01:29:48,840 --> 01:29:54,960
They stayed clean and they look so different, completely different.

1348
01:29:54,960 --> 01:29:57,920
That's the only thing I can think of.

1349
01:29:57,920 --> 01:30:00,260
That was before Trank.

1350
01:30:00,260 --> 01:30:02,920
They got clean before Trank.

1351
01:30:02,920 --> 01:30:10,160
So now I think it's so much more difficult for people to get clean.

1352
01:30:10,160 --> 01:30:17,200
And when you're loaded with Trank wounds, you're less motivated because it's just also

1353
01:30:17,200 --> 01:30:19,540
terribly negative.

1354
01:30:19,540 --> 01:30:22,560
You have this wound that may or may not be infected.

1355
01:30:22,560 --> 01:30:26,360
You have all kinds of health considerations from the wound.

1356
01:30:26,360 --> 01:30:30,280
I think it's terribly defeating.

1357
01:30:30,280 --> 01:30:38,120
It's yet another aspect of addiction that has to be managed and it can be very overwhelming.

1358
01:30:38,120 --> 01:30:42,240
And I think having Trank wounds makes it, you would think it would make it more likely

1359
01:30:42,240 --> 01:30:44,840
that they would get clean, that they'd be like, I got to get clean.

1360
01:30:44,840 --> 01:30:46,640
I got to get rid of this.

1361
01:30:46,640 --> 01:30:54,560
No, I think it makes it less likely because it's just so ugly and so debilitating and

1362
01:30:54,560 --> 01:30:57,080
they'll just let it go until they're amputated.

1363
01:30:57,080 --> 01:30:59,340
I saw a guy shooting into his amputation.

1364
01:30:59,340 --> 01:31:04,880
I have photographs of people shooting into their wounds.

1365
01:31:04,880 --> 01:31:08,280
So my dog is okay.

1366
01:31:08,280 --> 01:31:12,640
So he's a really dumb little two-year-old Morky.

1367
01:31:12,640 --> 01:31:15,160
I love him, but he's not very smart.

1368
01:31:15,160 --> 01:31:16,160
He does stupid.

1369
01:31:16,160 --> 01:31:19,880
Yeah, my dog.

1370
01:31:19,880 --> 01:31:24,680
But I think that the Trank wounds actually in a weird way make it less likely that people

1371
01:31:24,680 --> 01:31:25,680
are going to get clean.

1372
01:31:25,680 --> 01:31:30,240
Well, I can see them in that people are riddled usually, whether it's consciously or subconsciously

1373
01:31:30,240 --> 01:31:32,720
with guilt and shame.

1374
01:31:32,720 --> 01:31:35,920
That's a big part of addiction and then you have this physical manifestation that you're

1375
01:31:35,920 --> 01:31:37,240
now even more ashamed of.

1376
01:31:37,240 --> 01:31:40,440
So I could see how that would be a vicious circle.

1377
01:31:40,440 --> 01:31:44,200
That and also the wounds are so hard to manage.

1378
01:31:44,200 --> 01:31:51,200
It's so defeating and so depressing that I think people need all of the encouragement

1379
01:31:51,200 --> 01:31:55,800
in the world to get clean if their body's in perfect shape.

1380
01:31:55,800 --> 01:32:04,520
But if your body is falling apart, it is so much harder to be as positive and mentally

1381
01:32:04,520 --> 01:32:08,840
focused as you need to be to get clean and get off the streets.

1382
01:32:08,840 --> 01:32:11,320
So those Trank wounds are like anchors.

1383
01:32:11,320 --> 01:32:14,160
Yeah, I'm sure they hurt too.

1384
01:32:14,160 --> 01:32:16,480
So that probably draws you to more pain medication.

1385
01:32:16,480 --> 01:32:17,480
Yeah.

1386
01:32:17,480 --> 01:32:20,400
You'd be surprised how much they do with these wounds.

1387
01:32:20,400 --> 01:32:22,840
Like they hurt, but they're high a lot, I guess.

1388
01:32:22,840 --> 01:32:25,080
But I don't know what's going on.

1389
01:32:25,080 --> 01:32:32,520
I mean, these open wounds, I'm talking about massive wounds that are like all up and down

1390
01:32:32,520 --> 01:32:35,320
a leg, two legs.

1391
01:32:35,320 --> 01:32:37,440
Horrendous.

1392
01:32:37,440 --> 01:32:38,440
It is.

1393
01:32:38,440 --> 01:32:40,560
It's so bad.

1394
01:32:40,560 --> 01:32:51,480
I've seen wounds that were so bad that I mean, it's clear down to the bone, maggots, viscera,

1395
01:32:51,480 --> 01:33:00,520
tendons, ligaments, fat, muscle striation, the strata of the skin and the fat.

1396
01:33:00,520 --> 01:33:09,640
And I think when you reach that point, it's just real easy to say, this is over.

1397
01:33:09,640 --> 01:33:11,240
And they create a mess.

1398
01:33:11,240 --> 01:33:15,920
So I think that also creates issues for caregivers.

1399
01:33:15,920 --> 01:33:20,840
Like if they show up at rehab, some of the rehabs here, they're not very nice people

1400
01:33:20,840 --> 01:33:24,320
unless you have a lot of money to get into a good one.

1401
01:33:24,320 --> 01:33:28,820
And so you have staff that are insensitive.

1402
01:33:28,820 --> 01:33:30,980
And that's a problem for some of these places.

1403
01:33:30,980 --> 01:33:32,920
You have staff that are insensitive.

1404
01:33:32,920 --> 01:33:36,040
And some people say the rehabs are what you make them.

1405
01:33:36,040 --> 01:33:38,560
You have to be highly motivated.

1406
01:33:38,560 --> 01:33:42,600
But you could go in there with trachea wounds and people don't want to go near you.

1407
01:33:42,600 --> 01:33:44,760
They're not just going to be nice to you because you're in rehab.

1408
01:33:44,760 --> 01:33:47,080
You've got people, they view it as a job.

1409
01:33:47,080 --> 01:33:50,040
They're not there because they're psychiatric social workers.

1410
01:33:50,040 --> 01:33:55,720
They're there because they're just working there and they don't have the sensitivity

1411
01:33:55,720 --> 01:33:58,760
or the empathy.

1412
01:33:58,760 --> 01:34:02,000
That's a real issue for some of the rehabs.

1413
01:34:02,000 --> 01:34:06,560
So you could have a situation where somebody just doesn't want to bother with dealing with

1414
01:34:06,560 --> 01:34:07,560
all that trauma.

1415
01:34:07,560 --> 01:34:08,560
Yeah.

1416
01:34:08,560 --> 01:34:09,560
Well, you get compassion fatigue.

1417
01:34:09,560 --> 01:34:13,680
I see it in our community too.

1418
01:34:13,680 --> 01:34:18,200
If you've got someone working in that facility, this bright eyed and bushy tailed at the beginning.

1419
01:34:18,200 --> 01:34:23,280
And as you said, these desperate cases of people that you maybe early in your career

1420
01:34:23,280 --> 01:34:26,280
are hoping you're going to be the one that's going to help them turn the corner.

1421
01:34:26,280 --> 01:34:29,960
And then they come again and again and again, and they're getting worse and worse and worse.

1422
01:34:29,960 --> 01:34:35,040
I can see how there would be an emotional fatigue on the workers in the rehab too.

1423
01:34:35,040 --> 01:34:36,040
Yeah.

1424
01:34:36,040 --> 01:34:41,920
Well, I'm not talking about the people who work in the rehab who are necessarily nurses

1425
01:34:41,920 --> 01:34:44,000
and doctors and therapists.

1426
01:34:44,000 --> 01:34:50,440
I'm talking about the workers in the rehabs that aren't necessarily skilled nurses or

1427
01:34:50,440 --> 01:34:53,160
therapists.

1428
01:34:53,160 --> 01:34:54,480
Some of them aren't very nice.

1429
01:34:54,480 --> 01:34:55,840
They're really rough.

1430
01:34:55,840 --> 01:34:58,120
And some of the social workers aren't very good.

1431
01:34:58,120 --> 01:34:59,520
They don't really, they're just there.

1432
01:34:59,520 --> 01:35:00,520
They get a paycheck.

1433
01:35:00,520 --> 01:35:04,320
It takes a lot of work to be a social worker, to unearth a lot of programs for people to

1434
01:35:04,320 --> 01:35:07,360
make sure that they understand everything.

1435
01:35:07,360 --> 01:35:13,720
And not all of them see their job, take their job as seriously as they need to take it.

1436
01:35:13,720 --> 01:35:19,600
There's a lot of social services who are staffed by people who don't care.

1437
01:35:19,600 --> 01:35:21,040
They really don't care.

1438
01:35:21,040 --> 01:35:23,320
And that's another thing that's never talked about.

1439
01:35:23,320 --> 01:35:24,320
Yeah.

1440
01:35:24,320 --> 01:35:29,400
And it's a vicious circle there too, because the chances of someone overcoming an addiction

1441
01:35:29,400 --> 01:35:32,200
if they have a negative experience is diminished.

1442
01:35:32,200 --> 01:35:36,800
Same as a lot of the firefighters and police officers that I've had on the show that have

1443
01:35:36,800 --> 01:35:39,240
gone to see a counselor and it was the wrong counselor.

1444
01:35:39,240 --> 01:35:41,240
They burst into tears or they told them to get out.

1445
01:35:41,240 --> 01:35:42,600
They can't help them.

1446
01:35:42,600 --> 01:35:46,160
That one interaction can be devastating to someone in crisis.

1447
01:35:46,160 --> 01:35:47,880
Yes, it can be.

1448
01:35:47,880 --> 01:35:54,360
I'll tell you, doing this work has really catapulted me in, well, it's spiraled into

1449
01:35:54,360 --> 01:35:57,640
some real depression for me.

1450
01:35:57,640 --> 01:36:03,280
And I've had some really traumatic experiences out there with some people trying to rob me

1451
01:36:03,280 --> 01:36:09,160
or set me up or bad experiences with harm reduction, almost like creating a situation

1452
01:36:09,160 --> 01:36:12,560
where I got beaten up.

1453
01:36:12,560 --> 01:36:15,080
I've witnessed beatings.

1454
01:36:15,080 --> 01:36:20,960
I've witnessed people dying and stuff.

1455
01:36:20,960 --> 01:36:22,800
It's been very traumatic for me.

1456
01:36:22,800 --> 01:36:28,760
And the kinds of pictures I take, while they are narrative, some of them are real nice

1457
01:36:28,760 --> 01:36:30,360
narratives.

1458
01:36:30,360 --> 01:36:33,560
They have a flow and I try to do it artistically.

1459
01:36:33,560 --> 01:36:36,600
There's still pictures that the first responders would be used to seeing.

1460
01:36:36,600 --> 01:36:40,680
My pictures wouldn't freak the first responders out because that's what they see.

1461
01:36:40,680 --> 01:36:45,120
But the regular people that look at them, they're like, oh my God, get that away.

1462
01:36:45,120 --> 01:36:52,960
Because first responders, they see a part of people and humanity that other people don't

1463
01:36:52,960 --> 01:36:54,040
see.

1464
01:36:54,040 --> 01:36:55,720
They see the worst of us sometimes.

1465
01:36:55,720 --> 01:37:01,600
They see the best of us too, but they see these devastating situations that are really

1466
01:37:01,600 --> 01:37:04,800
hard to talk about with other people.

1467
01:37:04,800 --> 01:37:09,920
Because people, especially these days, they don't want to be brought down.

1468
01:37:09,920 --> 01:37:11,680
They don't want a downer.

1469
01:37:11,680 --> 01:37:18,200
You go to a party or you go to a dinner and you had some unbelievable experience on the

1470
01:37:18,200 --> 01:37:21,240
street as a first responder or me as a photographer.

1471
01:37:21,240 --> 01:37:22,240
I'm not a first responder.

1472
01:37:22,240 --> 01:37:27,760
I'm not responsible to save people's lives, but I am seeing this right up close, personal.

1473
01:37:27,760 --> 01:37:31,320
And I have done things to actually really help people.

1474
01:37:31,320 --> 01:37:36,680
And I've had to feed people and I've had to save people and get them help.

1475
01:37:36,680 --> 01:37:46,240
And I've had to do a lot of things that people don't know about behind the pictures.

1476
01:37:46,240 --> 01:37:50,000
So you have these experiences that other people find really distasteful.

1477
01:37:50,000 --> 01:37:53,300
You've seen things that other people are grossed out by.

1478
01:37:53,300 --> 01:37:54,600
You can't talk about it.

1479
01:37:54,600 --> 01:38:00,840
Well, this guy had this massive wound and he's pimping his girlfriend and his girlfriend

1480
01:38:00,840 --> 01:38:01,840
is no deed.

1481
01:38:01,840 --> 01:38:05,560
And there's all these crazy fucked up stories.

1482
01:38:05,560 --> 01:38:11,280
And it's hard to talk about it with regular civilian type people because a lot of people,

1483
01:38:11,280 --> 01:38:16,240
there are some people that have a lot of empathy and you can talk to, but a lot of them, they

1484
01:38:16,240 --> 01:38:18,240
don't want to hear it.

1485
01:38:18,240 --> 01:38:27,640
And then you just turn into this person that you're a downer or you're, stop being so negative.

1486
01:38:27,640 --> 01:38:30,320
Come on, be positive.

1487
01:38:30,320 --> 01:38:37,880
But you're seeing a part of life in a neighborhood where everything seems to be futile.

1488
01:38:37,880 --> 01:38:42,920
And I had this editor say to me at the New York Times, this woman I did not get along

1489
01:38:42,920 --> 01:38:47,040
with this conversation did not go well.

1490
01:38:47,040 --> 01:38:52,140
And I said to her, life in the United States needs to be portrayed as realistically as

1491
01:38:52,140 --> 01:38:53,680
what you portray in Ukraine.

1492
01:38:53,680 --> 01:38:59,240
And you need to use that protocol and the same standard instead of omitting and deleting

1493
01:38:59,240 --> 01:39:02,160
all this stuff from the narrative.

1494
01:39:02,160 --> 01:39:10,840
And she said, she thought the work was very powerful and very really good, but well, can't

1495
01:39:10,840 --> 01:39:16,840
you just go get some more hopeful images and put them in here and have hope?

1496
01:39:16,840 --> 01:39:19,640
Because we have to think about how the viewer is going to feel.

1497
01:39:19,640 --> 01:39:25,280
The viewer is going to be upset and traumatized and we have to think about that.

1498
01:39:25,280 --> 01:39:32,440
And I wrote to her later and I said, I can't insert false pictures of hope because the

1499
01:39:32,440 --> 01:39:37,360
story is the hopelessness of the whole situation.

1500
01:39:37,360 --> 01:39:41,980
And the fact that it's a dead end and that's the story you need to tell.

1501
01:39:41,980 --> 01:39:45,960
You can't go in there and I have hopeful pictures of the neighborhood of kids and I have all

1502
01:39:45,960 --> 01:39:51,080
kinds of pictures that I can make a nice edit with.

1503
01:39:51,080 --> 01:40:00,320
But you have a population of people, if you've been exposed to this kind of hardship and

1504
01:40:00,320 --> 01:40:03,840
trauma that simply doesn't want to hear it.

1505
01:40:03,840 --> 01:40:08,700
And they'll listen to it to a point and then it's time to get over it.

1506
01:40:08,700 --> 01:40:10,040
But you can't just get over it.

1507
01:40:10,040 --> 01:40:13,100
I can't imagine being an EMT.

1508
01:40:13,100 --> 01:40:17,160
I can't imagine responding to these calls every day.

1509
01:40:17,160 --> 01:40:23,280
You would just develop this out, I don't know how.

1510
01:40:23,280 --> 01:40:27,320
This is what needs to be heard and this is why I love these conversations.

1511
01:40:27,320 --> 01:40:32,740
The guests and the subjects, each interview that I do is so diverse and some are laughy

1512
01:40:32,740 --> 01:40:36,360
jokey and some are raw like this, but this also needs to be heard.

1513
01:40:36,360 --> 01:40:40,200
And the people listening to this, a lot of us are running on these people.

1514
01:40:40,200 --> 01:40:41,520
And I agree with you completely.

1515
01:40:41,520 --> 01:40:47,320
It's sad to me that there isn't really a voice for the fire service, for EMS in America.

1516
01:40:47,320 --> 01:40:54,480
You can name umpteen sports people that have a limelight or actors or singers, but the

1517
01:40:54,480 --> 01:40:59,900
voice of the first responder, I think it's a tragedy that it's not heard because we get

1518
01:40:59,900 --> 01:41:02,320
to see society how it really is.

1519
01:41:02,320 --> 01:41:04,680
And like you said, it's not all doom and gloom.

1520
01:41:04,680 --> 01:41:06,000
There's a lot of greatness.

1521
01:41:06,000 --> 01:41:10,420
Arguably, a majority of the people are doing pretty well.

1522
01:41:10,420 --> 01:41:12,820
So that's why we need to advocate for the ones who aren't.

1523
01:41:12,820 --> 01:41:17,120
And it's by this kind of storytelling that I think that we kind of pull those eyelids

1524
01:41:17,120 --> 01:41:18,760
open a little bit.

1525
01:41:18,760 --> 01:41:23,520
Now for people listening, where are the best places for people to see your work?

1526
01:41:23,520 --> 01:41:26,640
The website and social media.

1527
01:41:26,640 --> 01:41:28,320
It's Suzanne Stein.

1528
01:41:28,320 --> 01:41:32,200
If you Google me Suzanne Stein photographer, I'm on Instagram.

1529
01:41:32,200 --> 01:41:33,840
I have a blog.

1530
01:41:33,840 --> 01:41:40,040
There's some stuff written up about me, but you can find my website and my Instagram and

1531
01:41:40,040 --> 01:41:43,880
you know, I'll send you those links and you can put them in there and people can find

1532
01:41:43,880 --> 01:41:45,560
them.

1533
01:41:45,560 --> 01:41:49,120
Most of the rougher stuff is on my website.

1534
01:41:49,120 --> 01:41:50,120
It's really weird.

1535
01:41:50,120 --> 01:41:54,880
I do this really crazy rough kind of photography, but I have this really cute little dog and

1536
01:41:54,880 --> 01:42:01,080
I follow all these animals on Instagram and I have all these stuffed animals and you know,

1537
01:42:01,080 --> 01:42:06,880
I have this other part of me that's like really, you know, kind of this is my dog.

1538
01:42:06,880 --> 01:42:07,880
Beautiful.

1539
01:42:07,880 --> 01:42:08,880
He's silly.

1540
01:42:08,880 --> 01:42:15,520
You can see it kind of to offset all this trauma, but yeah, yeah, I'll give you those

1541
01:42:15,520 --> 01:42:20,880
links and, but I think there needs to be more of a dialogue with first responders and I

1542
01:42:20,880 --> 01:42:23,840
think people really need, we all really rely on first responders.

1543
01:42:23,840 --> 01:42:28,720
They're the most important people in our lives really when something's wrong, but we, we

1544
01:42:28,720 --> 01:42:34,800
really need to hear more, not just like some cops show, you know, I mean, somehow it would

1545
01:42:34,800 --> 01:42:39,000
be great to get that dialogue simultaneously.

1546
01:42:39,000 --> 01:42:46,080
It would be interesting with photography too, because they see life as it, as it really

1547
01:42:46,080 --> 01:42:47,080
is.

1548
01:42:47,080 --> 01:42:48,080
They see us how we are.

1549
01:42:48,080 --> 01:42:49,080
Absolutely.

1550
01:42:49,080 --> 01:42:50,080
Oh yeah.

1551
01:42:50,080 --> 01:42:51,080
That would be a beautiful fusion.

1552
01:42:51,080 --> 01:42:56,640
Actually it really would mean not, not beautiful, maybe aesthetically, but you know, it's very

1553
01:42:56,640 --> 01:43:02,720
important and you know, I'll tell you and I'll leave you with this and examining a lot

1554
01:43:02,720 --> 01:43:06,660
of photographs that are in media publications.

1555
01:43:06,660 --> 01:43:09,760
I've been doing a lot of that lately because I thought I wanted to break into doing that

1556
01:43:09,760 --> 01:43:13,840
kind of photography, but I can't cause my style is just, I look at it and it's very

1557
01:43:13,840 --> 01:43:20,760
polished and they can go to a place where it sucks and take these really polished pictures

1558
01:43:20,760 --> 01:43:24,500
and that's not what it looks like.

1559
01:43:24,500 --> 01:43:30,680
And so first responders see what it really looks like, but you can't see that anywhere

1560
01:43:30,680 --> 01:43:31,680
else.

1561
01:43:31,680 --> 01:43:34,360
It's really something that is not represented in media.

1562
01:43:34,360 --> 01:43:36,080
It's not represented.

1563
01:43:36,080 --> 01:43:37,340
It's hard to talk about.

1564
01:43:37,340 --> 01:43:40,240
People don't really, aren't always receptive.

1565
01:43:40,240 --> 01:43:43,800
So there really would be very interesting to have that fusion and really get it out

1566
01:43:43,800 --> 01:43:48,160
there because that's the lives that we're all really living, but we're acting like it's

1567
01:43:48,160 --> 01:43:49,660
not really real life.

1568
01:43:49,660 --> 01:43:56,600
It's sort of like that, that photographic euphemism is what's really out there.

1569
01:43:56,600 --> 01:43:57,600
Absolutely.

1570
01:43:57,600 --> 01:44:05,160
And it's kind of like a, it's like a hand clapping that are not connecting, what's really

1571
01:44:05,160 --> 01:44:09,880
out there and then what we're supposed to see, if that makes sense.

1572
01:44:09,880 --> 01:44:10,880
It does.

1573
01:44:10,880 --> 01:44:15,440
Well, we'll have to talk about that because I mean that maybe some narration from a first

1574
01:44:15,440 --> 01:44:19,480
responder couple with some of your pictures might be an interesting collaboration.

1575
01:44:19,480 --> 01:44:21,240
Yeah, it really would be.

1576
01:44:21,240 --> 01:44:22,240
I agree.

1577
01:44:22,240 --> 01:44:23,560
It would be.

1578
01:44:23,560 --> 01:44:26,200
Those are the people that would understand my pictures.

1579
01:44:26,200 --> 01:44:27,720
Yeah, absolutely.

1580
01:44:27,720 --> 01:44:29,960
Well, I want to thank you so much.

1581
01:44:29,960 --> 01:44:32,520
It's been an amazing conversation.

1582
01:44:32,520 --> 01:44:38,360
I want to thank you as well for what you've done because as you said, a lot of us see

1583
01:44:38,360 --> 01:44:43,460
it, but it's, we stand at parties and people don't know what we see in the desperation.

1584
01:44:43,460 --> 01:44:48,240
And you see people on television saying, oh, this community is this way, or the problem

1585
01:44:48,240 --> 01:44:49,640
with the homeless is this.

1586
01:44:49,640 --> 01:44:53,360
And you're like, no, no, we have a very, very different lens.

1587
01:44:53,360 --> 01:44:56,880
And I feel like your photography, which is one of the reasons why we connected in the

1588
01:44:56,880 --> 01:45:00,960
first place, really does line up with a lot of what a lot of us see.

1589
01:45:00,960 --> 01:45:02,560
And it's an important conversation.

1590
01:45:02,560 --> 01:45:06,240
So I want to thank you so much for being so generous with your time and coming on today.

1591
01:45:06,240 --> 01:45:23,480
Oh, thank you for having me.