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This episode is sponsored by NuCalm.

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And as many of you know, I only bring sponsors onto this show

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whose products I truly swear by.

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Now, we are an overworked and underslept population,

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especially those of us that wear uniform for a living.

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And trying to reclaim some of the lost rest and recovery is imperative.

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there is neuroacoustic software beneath that is tapping into the actual frequencies of your brain,

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whether to upregulate your nervous system or downregulate.

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Now, for most of us that come off shift, we are A, exhausted,

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So one powerful application is using the program Powernap,

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a 20 minute session that will not only feel like you've had two hours of sleep,

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And you can find even more information on New Calm.com.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing,

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and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome two guests to the show,

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Alan Chaison and Edward Ford.

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Now, Alan is currently a firefighter paramedic, but began his military journey as a Navy corpsman.

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Ed is a career Marine, and their paths intersected in the world of contracting,

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protecting what came to be known the Pony Express.

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So in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from their individual journeys into the military,

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tactical medicine, some of the notable attacks and firefights,

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the world of contracting, some of the devastating losses they endured,

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protecting the military's mail, mental health, transition,

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their book Postcards Through Hell, and so much more.

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Now, before we get to this incredibly powerful and important conversation,

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as I say every week, please just take a moment.

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Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.

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Every single five-star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for others to find.

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And this is a free library of over 850 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women's stories,

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so I can get them to every single person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you Alan Chesson and Ed Ford. Enjoy.

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Well, Alan and Edward, I want to say firstly thank you not only for coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today,

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but your patience, obviously coordinating this.

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It's been a challenge and then I had to rush back to the UK when we were supposed to do the interview.

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So I want to thank you firstly for coming on and secondly for your patience.

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Oh, yeah, no problem. Yeah, thanks for having us, actually. Yeah, thank you.

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So I want to kind of walk both of you through your early life journey into the military,

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because I mean when you come together and what you wrote about in the book,

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there's so much there, but just to give some context of how you both got there in the first place.

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So, Edward, let's start with you. Tell me where you were born.

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Tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings.

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Okay, yeah, born in Boston, Mass. I lived in Jamaica Plain most of my life.

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My father was a chef. My mom was a nurse. It's just one of those things.

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I'd always wanted to be a Marine, so ended up going after graduating high school.

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That's exactly what I did. I went down and actually I played hooky on,

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I skipped school on my 18th birthday, signed my name on the dotted line

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and enlisted in the Marine Corps on delayed entry.

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And then like five days after I graduated high school, I was standing on yellow footprints.

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And the funny thing is I was like, all right, I'm just going to go there to get some money for college.

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But I ended up really liking it. So after my first enlistment, I went out to Hawaii for a couple of years.

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Then after Hawaii, I got over to Second Force and that's where I really found my niche.

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It was in Force Recon. I mean, just being with like-minded individuals,

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guys that focused on the mission and were challenging and pushing themselves.

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That was the big thing there. You look at it initially when you walk there,

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like, God damn it, I don't know if I can do this. But then when you do that first event,

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then you pass the second event, then you get the third event.

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And before you know it, though, I mean, you're in a platoon, you're in a team, you're on patrols.

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Yeah, matter of fact, our first platoon, the first platoon I was in, in Second Force,

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we ended up deploying to Desert Storm. And if you remember, the little bit of the hubbub about the embassy take-down,

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when we took back the embassy, that was our platoon, Piglet 2-1, we took back the embassy in Kuwait City.

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And yeah, the Army was not pleased with that because they already had like a big hit plan,

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flying in Chinooks and everything else. So we took down the embassy, hung out there for a couple of days,

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and then we were told to get out of the city. As we're leaving the city, they even had a Black Hawk helicopter

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follow us out of the city to make sure we left. And I guess that's when they flew in with the helicopters

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and they all fast roped in. Kind of funny though, because we're sitting there, before we left,

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we were like, police called the area, cleaned everything up. There was a couple of pictures there,

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we all signed them and put them back up on the wall, nice and neat. They had our names on them.

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And as we're driving out, we're like, man, we really hope we clean this place up really good.

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And it turns out the Army went in there, blew open doors, blew the place down,

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and it was like they actually had to rebuild another embassy because of that.

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And yeah, but everyone was like, but the media pool was like, you can't, what are you saying you secured the embassy?

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We were talking on the marines that were there like two days prior to you guys,

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and yeah, nobody was happy, the Army wasn't happy about that.

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But yeah, I stayed in the second force up until 96, went to New Mexico, Albuquerque, New Mexico,

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was on part of the I&I, I worked with the Reserve Recon Unit out there in New Mexico for three years.

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And then I went over to First Recon Company right before they stood back up to battalion.

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They were a company. Picked up a platoon out there. I was a platoon sergeant now.

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Awesome job. I had a blast doing that.

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And it was just, I mean, you're so influential in all those younger Recon Marines,

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and you get to mold them, help mold them.

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And a lot of them, you know, they take what you taught them and they apply it later on.

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And took a platoon out on float, came back. That was the float that the coal got hit on.

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And so my platoon, because we had divers in there, we provided some dive support for the recovery mission

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when the Blue Marlin came in and they put the coal on top of the ship.

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They were in the boats as dive support.

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After that, came back, was up in the S3 doing ops and stuff like that.

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I was like, man, there's got to be more to it than this.

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And then another buddy of mine over at First Force was like, dude, we're looking for people if you're bored with the S3.

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And I was like, you know what? I'll do one more platoon before I retire and get out.

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And yeah, I got to run around one more time with our First Force.

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And this time we went to OIF and I was in fifth platoon then.

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But after the Marine Corps, I went right into contracting.

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And funny story about that is another Force recon guy, a buddy of mine, he had just retired and he was working for the crucible.

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And he said, he sent out a mass email.

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If you want to do this kind of work, making this kind of money, working with these kind of guys, send me your resume.

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So I shot him my resume and that was my first gig was working with Dyncor in Afghanistan at the embassy.

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And then from there I went to, I did that for a year.

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And then I worked for crucible for, geez, like two years.

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And then I picked up with SOC in 2009.

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And that was pretty much the last company I worked with.

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Started off in Iraq, went to Afghanistan, did static site security.

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I was a security supervisor for the construction going on down at Camp Chapman.

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And so whenever we had trucks coming in, I had to talk to the actual security guys from Blackwater.

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Let them know what was coming in, they'd search the trucks and we'd bring them in.

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And after that, then I got on the convoy program with SOC.

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And that's where I ran into Al again.

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I ran into Alan, in fact, the first time in Iraq, bad gagged in 2005.

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So yeah, and since, yeah, that's it really.

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Brilliant. Well, I want to, a couple of things I want to pull from you before we go to Alan.

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Firstly, the USS Cole, was that an al-Qaeda attack as well?

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Yes.

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So talk to me about that.

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They pulled right up to the side of it and they blew the hole in it.

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So from the perspective that you had, because not many people were really on that attack,

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what were, what was the tragedies and the heroism from that day that you heard or saw?

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Oh, I mean, I guess, you know, the ship was sinking in the harbor.

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And I mean, I guess, I mean, there was talk.

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I heard, we heard that there might've been some talk or like, hey, maybe we ought to just give up the ship.

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But the captain of the ship was like, no, we stay and we're going to save this ship.

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And, but yeah, I think they lost like 19 on that ship there and a whole bunch wounded too.

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But no, yeah, from what I heard, you know, the crew pulled together and that's what saved that ship.

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They, the flooding and the fires, they were able to get it all under control.

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And then they were able to fly in the, like this, all the support, like the Mutsu guys, they flew in from Bahrain.

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And then we were with the Mew, the 13th Mew, I believe.

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Yeah, the 13th Mew. And we were in the Seychelles.

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They cut our libo short and we all backloaded and we should, we sorted right up to the Gulf of Aden.

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And then that's when we started pulling all the security ops there.

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They put a rifle company on the beach in the harbor.

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So they had a hard area to work from.

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Plus we kept a ship there also so the FBI could launch its, could run its investigation.

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Yeah. Oh yeah. They flew the FBI out also for investigation and the forensics.

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So you're on scene of that and then a few short years later, the same organization attacks New York and other parts of America.

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You know, I've already been in uniform for quite a few years by that point.

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What was your personal 9-11 experience and how did it change your world?

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I was go, I was heading to work and I heard, I was listening to the radio, driving into work at Camp Pendleton.

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And I heard about a plane hitting one of the towers.

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But I remember the Empire State Building back in the 40s got hit by a B-25.

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It flew into the building in the fog. I was like, probably couldn't see.

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And I'm thinking it's a smaller plane.

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And now I'm sitting in the chow hall watching the first tower burning on fire.

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I'm like, wow. And then you see the air, the second jet, the second airliner in the background.

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It disappears behind the two towers and it doesn't come out the other side.

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But then all of a sudden you see that second tower, just a fireball shoot through it.

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And it was like, I'm sitting there reading. I'm like, oh wow, looks like we're going to war now.

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I mean, everyone's just like, oh wow.

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And then, yeah, that was the big news. That whole time there was,

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that whole day we were just watching as the towers fell up in the battalion, at the recon battalion.

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And battalion commander, Colonel Ferrando, was like, okay, get ready. We might be going to war here.

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We just don't know when. We are going to war. We just don't know when.

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So, yeah, that was, yeah, that was us. That was when I knew we were going to war.

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Where did you find yourself deployed first? Was it Afghanistan or was it Iraq?

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Iraq. All my work in Afghanistan was done as a civilian. I was a civilian contractor.

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OYF was like my last big, was my last operation with the Marine Corps.

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We, the platoon I was in, 5th platoon, we took down Safwan Hill.

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And then later on we were up in Baghdad just because things were starting to, you know,

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a lot of people were starting to get killed that didn't need to be getting hurt.

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They were starting to use the force recon platoons for the surgical CQB stuff for the Klairs.

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Just to try to keep the civilian casualties down up in Baghdad.

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Other than that, yeah, yeah, and then after, like I said, I mean, after I came back from that,

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I was going to be retiring in six months and that's when Chris Boyd sent out that email.

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That's what got me into contracting.

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Well, let's bring Alan in then. So same question for you first.

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Where you were born and then what your parents did, how many siblings?

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Well, I was born in Toronto, Ontario. I've got four sisters and one brother, twin sister, of course.

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My dad was a welder, my mom's a nurse as well.

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We immigrated to the United States, I guess in 1964.

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And we stayed there for a while and then relocated to Arizona where I went to high school.

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I was in NJROTC for three years.

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And so when I went into the military, I wanted to join the Marine Corps too, but I wanted to be a medic.

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So I went into the Navy, became a hospital corpsman so that I could be attached to a Marine Corps unit.

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But my military service was insignificant.

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I never did anything other than training up until my discharge in 1981.

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And when I was in the Navy, I went to a civilian training program for paramedics.

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And I became one of the first, I guess, Navy corpsmen to get nationally registered as a paramedic under that program.

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And when I got out, since I was already nationally registered, I just started working in EMS in 9-1-1, actually in Oakland, California.

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So I kind of cut my teeth on 9-1-1 in Oakland, which they call that the knife and gun club over there.

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So I saw a lot of trauma and whatnot.

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After that, I relocated back to British Columbia because my parents had moved over there.

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And I was working mostly in the logging industry as a first aid medic.

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And then that industry is wrought with a lot of unions and whatnot.

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And so they would strike quite often, and it was hard to get work in between.

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So I ended up coming back to the United States and got a job as a paramedic.

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And I was working on a tiered service.

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It was a contracted 9-1-1 service.

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So it was a private ambulance that was pulling 9-1-1 out of a fire station.

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And these guys were making maybe a little bit more, the same amount of money that we were.

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But they were running all the good calls and we were getting all the crappy stuff.

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So I said I wanted to be a firefighter.

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So I went to the fire academy.

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And it's kind of funny because my whole direction towards where I wanted to steer my career was in arson investigation.

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And I went to arson school and became an arson investigator.

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And they said, well, if you want to get certified in the state of Texas, you have to be a peace officer.

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So I ended up going to the police academy.

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And of course, when I was in the police academy, they found out I was a paramedic and wanted me to join a SWAT team.

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So I ended up doing SWAT for about 10 years.

205
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And I was also a member of Texas Task Force One.

206
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And I deployed to Hurricane Katrina.

207
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I actually did two deployments back to back.

208
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And I met some black water guys there.

209
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They were telling me they were hiring medics in Iraq.

210
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So I applied for that job and I got it.

211
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And I went overseas.

212
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And one of my trainers was at that's where I met Ed at Baghdad Hotel in Baghdad when he was working for the crucible.

213
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And so he trained me and we became pretty good friends.

214
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And then he had deployed to Afghanistan when he was working for SOC.

215
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And my contract was up.

216
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My next job was working for SOC, but I was still in Iraq.

217
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And over there, I was supposed to cover down for other medics that were going on leave.

218
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So I was jumping from FOB to FOB to FOB while these medics were out on leave.

219
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And then the last one I was at was at Adiwaniya at FOB Echo and that medic never came back.

220
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So I ended up staying there for like another three months.

221
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And so while Ed was in Afghanistan, one of their teams got hit and they didn't have a medic on the team.

222
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I mean, they all had training in combat lifesaver and they were able to take care of the situation, but they needed a medic and they needed somebody to put a program together for them.

223
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And they dropped my name in the hat.

224
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I just went from Echo to Afghanistan.

225
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So a couple of things.

226
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Firstly, Oakland.

227
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When I think of Oakland in the 80s, obviously that was, as you said, knife and gun club, a lot of gang violence, especially back then.

228
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Your introduction into EMS.

229
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Talk to me about that.

230
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What were some of the career calls you had when you were wearing that uniform?

231
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You know, they have a thing about differentiating between colors and a lot of these gang members, they all basically dress the same.

232
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They might be a part of a different gang and they use colors to segregate the gangs, but you can't tell one person apart from another.

233
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And I think that they do that to minimize their incarcerations and whatnot, where you can't identify suspects and whatever, not.

234
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But there were a lot of calls where, you know, if somebody is going to kill somebody, they want to make sure they're dead.

235
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And a lot of times you got out to a scene, you might not have the benefit or protection of law enforcement or whatever the case may be.

236
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And then you have to deal with the situation as it arises.

237
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And there have been a lot of times where we've been assaulted.

238
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We've had ambulances stolen.

239
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People have pointed guns at us to say, leave them alone, that kind of a thing and whatnot.

240
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But you just, you know, you push through it.

241
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That's the nature of the business.

242
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I know one of my paramedic friends was transporting a gang shooting victim to the trauma center and they were actually hunted down and they're shooting at the ambulance, at the rescue.

243
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And I don't know what happened. They've got spooked or something, so they didn't end up, you know, getting the driver or the medic.

244
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But I mean, terrifying.

245
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I mean, you're completely unprotected as a paramedic in the back of an ambulance.

246
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Yeah, it's funny because there's been times when we got back to the station and there'd be bullet holes in the truck, but we didn't know that we were being shot at, at the time.

247
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But yeah, that's an interesting thing.

248
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Now you worked, as you said, you're a paramedic, SWAT, law enforcement officer. What was your 9-11 experience and was that what sent you into the military side again?

249
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Not really. I mean, I got out in 1981.

250
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So, like I said, there was really, aside from my experience as a corpsman, the task force was probably the greatest motivator for me.

251
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I was on the tarmac getting ready to fly to Virginia when the plane crashed.

252
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And so all flights were canceled at that point.

253
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And so I'm at the airport. You know, I was supposed to go to Virginia to do some training with Darius Gonzalez on WMD and hazardous materials.

254
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And so I basically turned around and instead of going home, I went to the task force to see what was going to happen because I knew we were going to be deployed.

255
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And we have three tiers, red, white, and blue. And it was the white team that was up.

256
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And so once they sent out the notification to deploy to New York for the World Trade Center, we all sat on the tarmac for a couple of days before we actually deployed.

257
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And they ponied up enough people to send the white team there. And then our team was set up as backup.

258
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So I went home, just watched the news and, you know, just trying to stay in touch with the guys, you know, get a lot of video feed photographs and updates on how the team was doing and whatnot.

259
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And then from there, they mitigated the situation in 10 days as far as body recoveries and whatnot.

260
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I stayed with the task force for about 12 years. I did other deployments like the Columbia shuttle incident and Hurricane Katrina, the Texas tornadoes.

261
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They did a lot, quite a bit of stuff. As a USAR medic, my job there was assigned to hazardous materials.

262
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So I was considered a WB specialist and I was the manager of the blue team.

263
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I had some friends in Anaheim that went to Katrina and I remember vividly I was on probation still being in station six and watching Geraldo bitching on the television because he had come back to some bridge somewhere and the same people that were there last time he was there were still there.

264
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And I remember thinking, well, why the fuck didn't you put them on your helicopter and fly them out then? And the reporting from Katrina seemed so opposite than the reporting from 9-11.

265
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That community, that togetherness, you know, that we saw in New York, the way it was being reported was, you know, there was the woman, the media was literally saying they're just getting the white people out.

266
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All the black people have been left. I mean, it was absolutely horrendous. And, you know, my friends that were out there, one of whom was almost killed, the washroom, one of the helicopters picked up a bunch of pallets and hit him in the head, almost killed him.

267
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You know, I know what these men and women were doing, you know, for all these people of all colors and creeds that were in need at that time.

268
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So what was your perspective of that deployment specifically?

269
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The first mission, the objectives were clear, obviously, him life is the priority and we rescued a number of people.

270
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It was interesting to see all of the other things that kind of bothered me, like animal rescues would be one thing that we weren't allowed to do.

271
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I remember seeing this one dog that was standing up on a porch that was almost neck deep in water and it was close to the window sill of the first floor of the building.

272
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And this dog had been up there for so long that it was falling asleep. And so we pulled the dog into the boat.

273
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Not that it was we were going to try to rescue the dog and we certainly didn't deviate from our plan.

274
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But as soon as he got into the boat, he fell asleep and they woke up. And, you know, that kind of bothered me.

275
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And other times we would hear like babies crying. We would go to a house and find out it's just like a cat that's stuck on the inside and whatnot.

276
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And there were a lot of people that had already perished in the storm that were body recovery is not the primary objective.

277
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And a lot of people were getting on our case because we weren't taking these people out in the process of trying to find people that were live victims.

278
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And so they would be there for two or three days at a time. And it was kind of sad to see.

279
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But again, I don't think they understood what our objectives were.

280
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And, you know, we can't take the time to try to explain that. I'm certainly not in a position to talk to the public.

281
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I'm not a PIO or anything like that. But we just have to, you know, avoid some people didn't want to be taken out of their homes.

282
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There were people there that, hey, can you get us some beer and cigarettes and then just bring them back?

283
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And I was just going, hey, we're not a taxi service. You know, we just have to continue on with the mission.

284
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The second deployment was a lot harder. The water was starting to recede.

285
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We had a lot of decontamination that we had to do everywhere. We had to go and research homes that hadn't been marked properly.

286
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We had to forge our boats across areas. It got to be manually intensive in terms of the amount of work that we had to do.

287
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And it certainly took its toll. And as a matter of fact, at the end of that deployment, another hurricane, I think it was, hit in up near Fort Worth in Texas.

288
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So as soon as we got back, another team ended up going there. And so Houston was being evacuated.

289
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And I ended up just going to San Antonio and waiting it out because, you know, 22 days, it just, it wore on you.

290
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And I needed the time off to decompress.

291
00:28:23,660 --> 00:28:28,160
Well, thank you again for that insight. I think it's important, you know, whether it's military, whether it's first responders,

292
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it's amazing how when you ask the people that were actually there, you know, you hear human stories and you hear, you know, just simply taking a dog out of his suffering to let it, you know, transition peacefully, for example, that's beautiful.

293
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We don't see these, you know, if it kind of aligns with whatever political narrative is at that moment.

294
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And it's heartbreaking because I know that my brothers and sisters in uniform are out there risking their lives to do everything they can to save these people.

295
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And I found it so disgusting that it wasn't reported that way, that it was, you know, used as a, you know, as a porn by that point.

296
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And, you know, to have a reporter that isn't carrying people away, bitching about people not being carried away, for example, was like the, you know, that that summed everything up as far as the way it was presented versus the people that were actually there doing the work.

297
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Yeah, if I could caveat onto the paramedic thing, when I had applied for a contractor job, I initially applied as an international police liaison officer.

298
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I was going to go to Iraq to train Iraqi police on search and seizure and whatnot.

299
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And again, when I got there, they found out I was the paramedic, saying, oh, you would be better served on a PSD team.

300
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And I didn't know anything about PSD, so it was kind of like on the job training.

301
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When I met Ed, I kind of latched on to him because, you know, he was one of those kind of instructors that kind of put things on a ground level for you.

302
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And I learned a lot from him. I actually wrote a couple of articles that got published, and he helped me out with that.

303
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We just stayed in touch. And when I was, I was ecstatic when they called up for me to go to Afghanistan, I was more happy to be with him than I was to actually go to Afghanistan.

304
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:08,660
So it was pretty cool.

305
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:24,660
Well, Ed, Alan was talking about you needing a medic. So educate us on the mission, on what you were doing as far as the Pony Express, and then kind of walk us up to the point where Alan joined you.

306
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Okay, the convoy, it wasn't known as the Pony Express until we actually picked up the mail contract, which happened a little bit later. But when we brought Alan, we were doing secure, we were escorting secure loads for a, well, for a government client.

307
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Yeah, yeah, three letters. So we were, we were escorting those loads, and that was our mission there.

308
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Just get the loads there, and then bring the empty trucks back so they can backfill them again. And that was Money Mike's team, Mike Hardy's team that got hit on the way to Schkinn. Schkinn is on like the Paki border.

309
00:31:06,660 --> 00:31:26,160
And so they drove down through Ghazni to Sharona to Orgeny, uneventful, just a long day, then it was, all right, we're going to push on to Schkinn, and they said, if you can make it past this, I forget what mile marker was, 44?

310
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24.

311
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24. They said, if you can make it past mile marker 24, you're going to make it clean. I think they hit them right at mile marker 24.

312
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:37,660
They sure did.

313
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They hit them right at mile marker 24, and that's when, you know, they lit up the first vehicle that was Cookie's vehicle. They didn't end up rolling, flipping over.

314
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And then when Mike got up to it, that's when he got out of the vehicle, cleared the vehicle, and was like, where the hell are they? And then they got back into the vehicle, but this time they had to fight their way off the X.

315
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And then as soon as they got off the X, they see Cookie and the driver, Wolf, I think his name was, standing there right next to one of the fuel trucks that they escorted.

316
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And I was like, dude, we thought you were gone. I was like, yeah, we didn't know how to get out. And we saw the fuel truck drive by. We're like, okay, we're jumping in that truck.

317
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So they both ran up there and they opened the door and they just jumped up into the truck and he drove them out.

318
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Then Mike was able to drive out on his own with his vehicle, and then they made it to the skin, the fire base there.

319
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And yeah, that's where they got debriefed by the client, the agency, and then they had to retrograde them back. They had to fly them back.

320
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Because I know Cookie, the concussion, I think, yeah, that ambush was caught on a satellite feed too.

321
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:15,660
Oh yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. And they were surprised. They were like, man, these guys are gone. We're going to lose all this fuel. These guys are going to lose that team.

322
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They were shocked that they made it in with just minor injuries.

323
00:33:19,660 --> 00:33:33,160
So talk to me about that early point where you're not protecting the post specifically yet. When we think of IEDs, obviously we're thinking of patrols, we're thinking about the Hummers and all those getting hit.

324
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Talk to me about the danger that it was simply logistically moving supplies and the protection that you needed to give to them.

325
00:33:44,160 --> 00:34:00,660
Oh yeah, because they had to be a secure load because, well, there's so much corruption over there. If you just sent those trucks out there on the road with the drivers, they probably would have sold everything, either aid to the Taliban or they would have been selling it off for themselves.

326
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So you have to deal with the logistics of moving those trucks because those are local truck drivers. And surprisingly, there was always that concern. Are they buying drugs down from one place and moving them to another?

327
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And this is why it was nice. I was a military guy, but so it was like contracting was my first time really working with cops. And that's when you realize, man, these guys are going to walk to the table.

328
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You've got to search a vehicle for anything, send your cops in. They know where all the hiding spots are.

329
00:34:41,660 --> 00:34:55,160
Oh yeah, and the Afghan drivers, sometimes you see them because I remember money and a cookie would go up there. They knew right where to go. Boom, boom, boom. They were pulling all the contraband.

330
00:34:55,660 --> 00:35:05,160
A lot of the drugs and it was like, all right. They would just get it destroyed is what they would do.

331
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:16,660
It wasn't just IEDs though. It was RPGs, small arms, fire, IDF, all kinds of shit. I mean, when they attacked you, they attacked you with everything and they did it with a purpose.

332
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It was try to choke the column, get the first vehicle. Sometimes these drivers wouldn't stay on the X. They tried to back out or leave or even ditch their vehicles.

333
00:35:26,660 --> 00:35:37,160
And the next thing you know, now you've got to be able to jump into one of their vehicles and figure out how to drive that. So I mean, everybody was trained to drive the vehicles.

334
00:35:37,660 --> 00:35:49,160
And we did a lot of training in tactical tire changes, towing out vehicles, pushing out vehicles, cross decking, the whole nine yards. So yeah, they were dangerous, dangerous missions.

335
00:35:49,160 --> 00:36:01,660
Yeah. And yeah, so yeah, so you're dealing with the corruption. Now you're also dealing with the Taliban, the complex ambushes. It wasn't like Iraq where they would just pop off an IED and that's it.

336
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:09,660
These guys were running complex ambushes all the time. They wanted to fight us. They wanted to fight us. And we were like, God damn, man.

337
00:36:09,660 --> 00:36:20,160
I remember Chris Vail when I first picked him up and I briefed him up on that and he was like, ah, a worthy adversary. I was like, dude, be careful what you wish for.

338
00:36:20,660 --> 00:36:29,160
But yeah, like Al said, it was all a lot of rehearsals. I mean, what to do on enemy contact, but also the mundane also.

339
00:36:29,660 --> 00:36:38,160
How to take down a refueling site, how to change a flat tire, how to set up a tow, how to cross deck the wounded.

340
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:47,660
You know, a lot of the routine stuff that you need to do too.

341
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:57,660
Oh, shoot. But other than, you know, what am I, I'm missing something here.

342
00:36:57,660 --> 00:37:10,160
You're fine. Actually, I'm going to throw a question in for you quickly. When I first started doing the podcast, there was a lot of avoidance when it came to drugs in Afghanistan.

343
00:37:10,660 --> 00:37:16,160
And then I don't know what happened. There was a shift about four years ago. People were like totally, you know, open to it now.

344
00:37:16,660 --> 00:37:19,160
So I don't know if some kind of gag order was lifted or lifted or what.

345
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:28,660
But when you look at the harm that the illicit drug trade has done domestically, that's why we have, you know, gangs like Alan was talking about in Oakland.

346
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:34,660
If you take away the drugs, you know, that's the ability to make money. You probably disassemble a lot of these gangs.

347
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:43,660
But a lot of the military guests that have come on now was saying about especially the opium and that funding a lot of the terrorism that you guys were fighting.

348
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,660
Now you're seeing all this smuggling. Was there a connection through your eyes back then?

349
00:37:47,660 --> 00:37:54,160
I mean, we knew it was there. I mean, I remember on my first contract with DynCorp, we flew down south.

350
00:37:54,660 --> 00:38:03,160
The DEA wanted to talk to this drug lord and we landed and we're looking at acres and I mean acres and acres and acres of poppies.

351
00:38:03,660 --> 00:38:09,160
And it looked beautiful. It was all like pink and the pinks and the whites and stuff. You're like, wow.

352
00:38:09,660 --> 00:38:13,160
And it was like, that's 90 percent of the world's heroin trade.

353
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:17,660
And we were at first we were pissed off at the warlord like, dude, man, what are you doing here?

354
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:24,660
He's like, I'm a businessman. I don't use this stuff. But you know what people they want it. I'm going to provide it.

355
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:32,660
And I'm providing a good quality product here. You know, when the demand goes away, I'll grow something else.

356
00:38:32,660 --> 00:38:43,160
And it's like, and how do you answer? And he is like, ah, so it's weird because harvesting opium is not illegal in Afghanistan.

357
00:38:43,660 --> 00:38:47,160
I mean, that's that's their that's their trade.

358
00:38:47,660 --> 00:38:53,160
And it's weird because in Colombia they have like DynCorp was running cocaine eradication programs.

359
00:38:53,660 --> 00:38:55,160
And I thought, well, why don't they do that here?

360
00:38:55,660 --> 00:39:00,160
And that was kind of confusing to me because these guys, these farmers, they're not drug dealers.

361
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,660
They're just they're just cultivating a product that's that's needed.

362
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:09,660
And, you know, unfortunately, a lot of that money went to the Taliban and supported terrorism.

363
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:14,660
It was really nothing that we could do about it as far as that was concerned.

364
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,660
But I think our main our main focus was operational security.

365
00:39:18,660 --> 00:39:32,160
And these people that were trying to take advantage of us as a team or were tasked with a mission, we have to we have to deal with the corruption of these local nationals.

366
00:39:32,660 --> 00:39:41,160
SoC could not operate in Afghanistan without a counterpart, which was called SoC A, SoC for Afghanistan.

367
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:51,660
And that was designed to twofold. It was one to give local nationals an opportunity to get work and two to stimulate the economy, which is putting American dollars back into the economy.

368
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,660
And so we had no choice but to hire some of these LNs.

369
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,660
We certainly used them as our top gunners.

370
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,660
And then, of course, our drivers, they came from all over the place.

371
00:40:01,660 --> 00:40:12,160
I mean, they were Somalians, they were Indians, they were Afghanis. They they they and they the vetting process went through SoC A.

372
00:40:12,660 --> 00:40:15,160
So we didn't really have a choice on who was driving these vehicles.

373
00:40:15,660 --> 00:40:30,160
Whenever we got a mission, we would ask, you know, have to try to search the vehicles, look for cell phones and whatnot, because a lot of times these guys were giving up our locations, our our timings, our routes and things of that nature.

374
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:32,660
And it became difficult to work in that environment.

375
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:42,660
So it was a never ending conundrum of operational security that was causing problems for us on these missions.

376
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:53,660
Well, it's just interesting because looking at it at the lens of the user, I think the US think we consume 75 percent of the world's opiates and we're four percent of the world's population.

377
00:40:53,660 --> 00:41:11,160
So when you look again, and we're going to get into this, you know, the mental health crisis that exists, whether it's in uniform, whether it's the average person and the way that we viewed addiction for a long time, you know, criminalizing and locking people up, that in turn was ultimately feeding, you know, was was funding the terrorism indirectly.

378
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:28,660
So it's it's just really, I think, important to hear all the stories of all these different people in these different layers so that we, you know, the Brits, the Americans, whoever's listening and whatever country you're from, can go, oh, OK, we can we can see a much bigger picture than, you know, good guy, bad guy and, you know, guns and money.

379
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:29,660
And there's a lot more.

380
00:41:29,660 --> 00:41:43,160
You think about all the crime that the prohibition of drugs is created the same way as alcohol did with, you know, Al Capone. It's not just on our shores. It reverberates to other countries and even some of these wars.

381
00:41:43,160 --> 00:42:03,660
Yeah, yeah, we were going back to the the Afghanistan with the opium. I mean, the during the harvest time, they call it the threshold. They actually slow down the fighting season just so they can get out there and harvest the opium tar. What they would do one day, they would go out there.

382
00:42:03,660 --> 00:42:13,660
They would cut all the bulbs. You know, you'd see all the Afghans online with a razor with a knife just cutting the bulbs. Then like two days later, they come by with a big pan.

383
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:30,160
They scrape it. So you do the cut a couple days later, you do the scrape. And then like the next day out, you're doing another cut. You can get three cuts out of a poppy bolt. So out of like a two week period, you would like, you know, you would get three cuts out of a poppy bolt.

384
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:52,660
So out of like a two week period, you would get all that all that opium, all that opium tar out of the poppy bulbs. And then they'd bag it all up and then they'd move it across the border, depending upon where you're at. Down south, they get or along the RC East, they get it into Pakistan.

385
00:42:52,660 --> 00:43:09,160
Up north, they get it into the other countries up there like Tajikistan. But yeah, they would actually slow down the fighting just so they could move to get that hop that opium tar harvested and moved out of the country.

386
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:27,660
So, I mean, everybody could make their money because everybody made money. The A&A made money. The A&P made money. Everybody was made. Everybody was in on the take out there when it came to the opium harvest. And then, you know, once they got it all, boom, fighting season back on again.

387
00:43:27,660 --> 00:43:51,160
It was it was it was weird like that. You know, it's like, all right, man, we're gonna go. We're going all out to kill all these guys. Well, to go kill each other. All right, let's take a break here. All right, let's we just need to go ahead and harvest our drugs here. And then two weeks later, they're back at it. You know, they got it all out. And everybody's making their money.

388
00:43:51,160 --> 00:44:01,660
It was so quite a few farming plots with marijuana as well. I just thought that was for local use, you know, with the elders and whatnot.

389
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:11,660
You have the hashish. Yeah, I mean, those are like some tall plants, like six, seven foot tall. It was like you could walk by me and you'd smell me like, oh, wow.

390
00:44:11,660 --> 00:44:41,160
Well, I mean, I think this is that you said that's how they made their money. I think this is the thing is whether it's Mexico or Afghanistan supply and demand. I heard the Mexico, some of the cartels are moved into avocados now. Someone was telling me the other day because there's such a demand and I just had one today. So obviously, I'm part of the problem there. But you know, you can you can fund that supply or that demand, you know, in a healthy product, coffee, you know, vegetables, whatever it is. So, you know, still empowering.

391
00:44:41,660 --> 00:44:45,160
The farmers were just taking the power away from from some of the shit bags of the world.

392
00:44:45,660 --> 00:45:04,160
Yeah, I think that's that's the ideology behind the reconstruction as well. You know, I mean, the America's efforts and trying to create a different type of economy kind of fell to the wayside after we after we all ended up leaving, you know, I mean,

393
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:22,660
it, you know, one objective is to, you know, to try to take back the country. The other objective is to try to to help the economy get along, train these people so that they can have regular jobs, things like that. And then all of a sudden we leave and everything goes back to the way it was before, if not worse. So

394
00:45:22,660 --> 00:45:43,160
yeah, it's heartbreaking. I mean, the number of people I've had on the show, whether they're allied forces or even Afghan national sort of come on since, you know, and they're talking about what they're going through now, you know, the starvation, the cold and the Taliban and then, you know, the eviction from Pakistan, all these things that are happening simultaneously where a lot of people now are left, you know, so helpless after the war.

395
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:59,660
I mean, I'm going to say about the I mean, I mean, if you spent any time on the ground and you interacted with the locals, you I think, and I think you all we all saw that once we leave here, this place is going back to the Taliban.

396
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:01,660
Yeah, you knew in advance.

397
00:46:01,660 --> 00:46:25,660
I mean, we all knew it was going to happen. I remember when I was leaving Afghanistan for good in December 2012, I ran a buddy of mine was an RSO up at the embassy, I hung out, had lunch and I was, yeah, man, six months after we're gone, we pull out this place going back to the Taliban. And he's like, one of the RSOs is like six months, dude, how about six weeks? And I was like, wow.

398
00:46:25,660 --> 00:46:48,660
It turned out to be six days. Yeah, six days. It was like, really? Yeah, it went way too fast. But yeah, it was. Yeah, we all saw it come. We all knew that, hey, this place is going to go back to the Taliban. But, you know, it just just, we just had no plan for it.

399
00:46:48,660 --> 00:47:15,660
So I think that's that's the unified voice I hear is I think most veterans will look in the mirror and know that they made a difference. And I've heard so many stories. And when I ask, you know, it's kind of two sided story. You know, and they talk about the kindness and compassion of the veterinary surgeon that helped the local animals and you know, the, the kids, you know, playing football with the kids, all the human moments that you guys had and empowering women and rebuilding schools and all that kind of stuff. And I think it's a really, it's a really, it's a really important moment.

400
00:47:15,660 --> 00:47:43,660
that we were able to play football with the kids and that's just the way that we did it. And I think that's the, the, the most important part of the game. I think this is the most important aspect of the game is the, the, the, the plays that you guys had and empowering women and rebuilding schools and hospitals and water supplies. So that was all good. But at the same time, to withdraw the way that we did, you know, that's absolutely jamming a finger in the wound as well of all the the men and women that we lost the limbs that were lost the mental health that was lost in, you know, in defense of that country. And I think it was a slap in the face to anyone who served the way that we did it.

401
00:47:43,660 --> 00:47:45,100
but it was just never executed.

402
00:47:45,100 --> 00:47:46,520
The Biden administration just said,

403
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:49,060
nah, we're gonna go ahead and shut down

404
00:47:49,060 --> 00:47:52,860
our major air base first and then we'll play by air.

405
00:47:52,860 --> 00:47:55,760
I mean, we left all those interpreters,

406
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,420
everybody that worked for us for like 20 years,

407
00:48:00,580 --> 00:48:05,220
we left there and I remember when that withdrawal

408
00:48:05,220 --> 00:48:07,420
was going down, I'm on the signal

409
00:48:07,420 --> 00:48:11,420
and with a bunch of us that were working over there

410
00:48:11,420 --> 00:48:16,220
from my embassy, from my first gig over in the embassy

411
00:48:16,220 --> 00:48:19,080
in 2004, but we were all still stayed in touch

412
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:22,040
and we were just trying to figure out

413
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:24,280
how can we help get these guys out

414
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:28,560
and it's like, hey, try to make it to the Panjshir Valley.

415
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:29,520
Nah, can't do it.

416
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:32,000
All right, get north, get up to Mazar Sharif

417
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:36,040
and we'll try to get you guys across the border

418
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:39,760
and we got some guys out, but geez,

419
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:41,720
I mean, there's still a bunch that I know

420
00:48:41,720 --> 00:48:44,160
of that didn't make it out and it's just a matter

421
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:46,960
of what's going on now with them

422
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:50,880
because yeah, the Taliban knew that those height machines

423
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:53,440
that they used to scan the retinas,

424
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:57,240
they knew how to work those and once they scan that retina,

425
00:48:57,240 --> 00:48:59,400
it's either kind of come back as a suspect

426
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:02,900
or an employee, US employee and if you came up

427
00:49:02,900 --> 00:49:06,080
as a US employee, you were about to have a bad day

428
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:10,120
and yeah, that's what they, we left all of them.

429
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:14,680
So yeah, but I think we have a bad habit of doing that too.

430
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:16,320
Let me look at what we did in Vietnam.

431
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:20,680
We left off of a rooftop there, so.

432
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:22,120
Yeah, exactly and someone was saying,

433
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:24,500
I forget which guest it was, but the next time

434
00:49:24,500 --> 00:49:27,380
that we're asking a nation to come fight side by side,

435
00:49:27,380 --> 00:49:30,040
they're gonna point at those two and go,

436
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:31,680
we don't trust you and that's sad

437
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:33,880
because they trust the people that were actually there

438
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:36,000
but just the decisions are so often,

439
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,120
of the few people that don't even show up to an actual war,

440
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:43,280
they just make decisions from the safety of their own homes

441
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:47,440
and now they've damaged the potential relationships

442
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:49,000
of allies in the future.

443
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:52,480
Oh yeah, I mean, I wouldn't wanna work for the,

444
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:56,900
I mean, if I was like over in one of those foreign countries,

445
00:49:56,900 --> 00:50:01,900
US came in, I'd be very hesitant on putting my family

446
00:50:01,900 --> 00:50:04,340
at risk to work for the US.

447
00:50:04,340 --> 00:50:07,220
It would have to be, I'll go ahead and sign on

448
00:50:07,220 --> 00:50:10,660
but you get my family out, they have visas right now.

449
00:50:10,660 --> 00:50:13,180
They have visas, you're gonna give them training

450
00:50:13,180 --> 00:50:16,540
and then you're gonna give them jobs or else I'm up.

451
00:50:17,500 --> 00:50:22,460
And yeah, that's the only way they're gonna get

452
00:50:22,460 --> 00:50:27,080
interpreters I think for the next go round, so.

453
00:50:28,140 --> 00:50:30,500
Well, Alan, I wanna bring you back in.

454
00:50:30,500 --> 00:50:34,580
Ed had talked about initially not protecting the posts.

455
00:50:34,580 --> 00:50:36,500
So talk to me about that transition

456
00:50:36,500 --> 00:50:38,540
and let's bring you in when you first got boots

457
00:50:38,540 --> 00:50:40,300
on the ground in Afghanistan.

458
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:44,200
Well, they were doing a vehicle recovery.

459
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,540
So when I got to Afghanistan, they left me at the airport.

460
00:50:47,540 --> 00:50:49,180
I was, nobody there to pick me up

461
00:50:49,180 --> 00:50:53,900
and I didn't know where the compound was and whatnot

462
00:50:53,900 --> 00:50:55,580
and I was just gone, oh crap.

463
00:50:55,580 --> 00:51:00,220
And you know, Money Mike talks about trial by fire.

464
00:51:00,220 --> 00:51:03,900
I just jumped in a cab with another contractor

465
00:51:03,900 --> 00:51:05,940
that was working for a company called Barsa

466
00:51:05,940 --> 00:51:10,940
which was an NGO and that cab took her to her compound

467
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:17,400
and then I knew that we were in the Shah Arni district

468
00:51:18,260 --> 00:51:22,140
and so the cab driver took me back there

469
00:51:22,140 --> 00:51:24,260
and I kept thinking, I mean, he could just take me

470
00:51:24,260 --> 00:51:25,860
to Taliban headquarters right now

471
00:51:25,860 --> 00:51:30,860
and get whatever money an expat could garner.

472
00:51:31,220 --> 00:51:34,220
But we drove up and down these streets in this district

473
00:51:34,220 --> 00:51:36,700
until I finally saw a guard in a sock uniform

474
00:51:36,700 --> 00:51:38,780
and I said, hey, turn right here.

475
00:51:38,780 --> 00:51:39,620
And he turned right

476
00:51:39,620 --> 00:51:41,700
and I think I spent about three hours in that cab

477
00:51:41,700 --> 00:51:44,100
looking for that compound and I finally found it.

478
00:51:44,100 --> 00:51:46,140
And I got out, just as I got out,

479
00:51:46,140 --> 00:51:48,900
those guys showed up with the vehicle that they had recovered

480
00:51:48,900 --> 00:51:49,980
and I was just going, hey man,

481
00:51:49,980 --> 00:51:51,100
nobody picked me up at the airport.

482
00:51:51,100 --> 00:51:53,620
Well, we had, this was a priority.

483
00:51:53,620 --> 00:51:55,840
And I was going, okay, well, thanks.

484
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:56,900
I feel the love.

485
00:51:57,940 --> 00:51:59,300
Sorry.

486
00:51:59,300 --> 00:52:00,500
Yeah.

487
00:52:00,500 --> 00:52:01,340
I was totally-

488
00:52:01,340 --> 00:52:03,060
But you hit the ground running.

489
00:52:03,060 --> 00:52:06,980
So your first day there is, you get billeted.

490
00:52:06,980 --> 00:52:08,500
We were in a really small villa

491
00:52:08,500 --> 00:52:09,740
that was kind of split in two

492
00:52:09,740 --> 00:52:12,540
where admin was on one side and ops were on the other.

493
00:52:14,300 --> 00:52:16,900
Just unpack your stuff and then get to work.

494
00:52:17,820 --> 00:52:22,720
We had ordered some F550s that hadn't arrived yet.

495
00:52:22,720 --> 00:52:25,000
So we were running local PSD missions

496
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:27,300
for people to and from the airport,

497
00:52:27,300 --> 00:52:29,220
taking the client here and there,

498
00:52:29,220 --> 00:52:31,340
some recon missions and whatnot.

499
00:52:31,340 --> 00:52:33,820
And I saw that our medical supply

500
00:52:33,820 --> 00:52:36,060
was really grossly depleted.

501
00:52:36,060 --> 00:52:40,360
We had some med stuff, but a lot of it was expired.

502
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:43,340
Some of it was the packaging wasn't really good

503
00:52:43,340 --> 00:52:44,180
and whatnot.

504
00:52:44,180 --> 00:52:46,940
So I just went to work and every time I went on a mission

505
00:52:46,940 --> 00:52:49,460
with any crew to a fob or whatever,

506
00:52:49,460 --> 00:52:52,880
I would hook up with the medics at that location

507
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:54,940
and I would say, hey, what can you spare here and there?

508
00:52:54,940 --> 00:52:58,780
I just started stockpiling med gear and whatnot.

509
00:52:58,780 --> 00:53:00,000
That was my first priority

510
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:01,660
was to get all that stuff going.

511
00:53:02,540 --> 00:53:05,780
After that, I put together a medical profile cards

512
00:53:05,780 --> 00:53:07,740
for all of the operators

513
00:53:07,740 --> 00:53:09,980
so that if anybody got injured at the time

514
00:53:11,180 --> 00:53:12,660
and they weren't able to speak for themselves,

515
00:53:12,660 --> 00:53:14,860
we had information on their blood types,

516
00:53:14,860 --> 00:53:18,080
their allergies, their meds, their medical history

517
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:19,860
and their emergency contact information.

518
00:53:19,860 --> 00:53:22,260
And I kept the master with myself

519
00:53:22,260 --> 00:53:24,580
and then each operator had a card

520
00:53:24,580 --> 00:53:29,580
that they had to carry in a specified pocket on their vests.

521
00:53:29,620 --> 00:53:31,380
And then we started training up the guys

522
00:53:31,380 --> 00:53:34,500
in combat lifesaver and teach Ripple C.

523
00:53:35,820 --> 00:53:37,500
And then we got the gun trucks in

524
00:53:37,500 --> 00:53:39,340
and we started running missions there.

525
00:53:40,580 --> 00:53:43,820
I actually left in 2009

526
00:53:43,820 --> 00:53:46,060
just before they picked up the mail contract.

527
00:53:47,340 --> 00:53:49,580
But we had already done missions.

528
00:53:49,580 --> 00:53:52,460
Matter of fact, we did a mission down to Kandahar.

529
00:53:52,460 --> 00:53:54,700
And when we got to Kandahar,

530
00:53:54,700 --> 00:53:56,460
they had another mission back in Kabul.

531
00:53:56,460 --> 00:53:58,260
So they split our team up.

532
00:53:58,260 --> 00:54:00,860
So Ed came down and give us the news and said,

533
00:54:00,860 --> 00:54:03,260
okay, you and I are gonna go to Herat,

534
00:54:03,260 --> 00:54:05,260
which is through Taliban country.

535
00:54:05,260 --> 00:54:08,260
And the other rest of the team are gonna take a gun truck

536
00:54:08,260 --> 00:54:11,220
and the rest of the vehicles back to Kabul.

537
00:54:11,220 --> 00:54:13,740
And so him and I ended up running this suicide mission

538
00:54:13,740 --> 00:54:18,740
to Herat just with one gun truck and a lead vehicle.

539
00:54:18,740 --> 00:54:22,740
And that, I mean, I was shooting bullets

540
00:54:22,740 --> 00:54:24,500
because we drove through Helmand province.

541
00:54:24,500 --> 00:54:25,780
We saw a lot of activity

542
00:54:25,780 --> 00:54:29,460
where the army was engaging military.

543
00:54:29,460 --> 00:54:33,540
The road was just littered with blown out vehicles

544
00:54:33,540 --> 00:54:36,700
and evidence of several attacks.

545
00:54:36,700 --> 00:54:37,820
And it was just like, man,

546
00:54:37,820 --> 00:54:39,500
you gotta have your head out of swivel.

547
00:54:39,500 --> 00:54:41,940
And I kept thinking, man, I wonder what he's thinking.

548
00:54:41,940 --> 00:54:44,700
And I'm thinking that he's wondering what I'm thinking.

549
00:54:44,700 --> 00:54:47,180
And we pulled that mission off

550
00:54:47,180 --> 00:54:50,780
and they dubbed that when we finally returned,

551
00:54:50,780 --> 00:54:53,460
they dubbed that the thousand kilometer club

552
00:54:53,460 --> 00:54:56,900
because we ran one of those missions nonstop

553
00:54:56,900 --> 00:54:59,100
in a 24 hour period.

554
00:54:59,100 --> 00:55:02,380
Yeah, going from Herat to Kandahar back up to Kabul.

555
00:55:02,380 --> 00:55:03,220
Yeah.

556
00:55:03,220 --> 00:55:04,060
Yeah.

557
00:55:04,060 --> 00:55:08,420
That's 800, 881 kilometers or something like that.

558
00:55:08,420 --> 00:55:11,420
They just called it the thousand kilometer club.

559
00:55:11,420 --> 00:55:12,260
So.

560
00:55:12,260 --> 00:55:16,100
So as you get into that role, talk to me,

561
00:55:16,100 --> 00:55:18,700
and we would call it a career call in the fire service,

562
00:55:18,700 --> 00:55:23,700
but you wrote about so many elements

563
00:55:24,060 --> 00:55:25,300
when it came to the book,

564
00:55:25,300 --> 00:55:28,260
but walk me through kind of chronologically

565
00:55:28,260 --> 00:55:31,100
some of the big events, some of the losses of lives

566
00:55:31,100 --> 00:55:33,340
that started to really impact you and your team.

567
00:55:34,780 --> 00:55:37,700
Well, that was more with Ed.

568
00:55:37,700 --> 00:55:42,140
He saw quite a bit more contact with the team.

569
00:55:42,140 --> 00:55:45,180
Then I did most of the stuff that happened with me

570
00:55:45,180 --> 00:55:47,340
was in 2012.

571
00:55:47,340 --> 00:55:51,900
It's kind of strange because the book goes from 2009 to 2012,

572
00:55:51,900 --> 00:55:56,100
but the contract actually ran until December 24th of 2016,

573
00:55:56,100 --> 00:55:59,940
but everything from 2012 to 2016 was classified.

574
00:55:59,940 --> 00:56:02,740
So we were actually not allowed to write

575
00:56:02,740 --> 00:56:04,380
about any of those contacts.

576
00:56:05,860 --> 00:56:07,460
We weren't allowed to mention any names.

577
00:56:07,460 --> 00:56:09,100
We weren't allowed to give any mission specs

578
00:56:09,100 --> 00:56:12,660
because the prime, which is the person

579
00:56:12,660 --> 00:56:17,380
that holds the contract is classified.

580
00:56:17,380 --> 00:56:20,700
So we couldn't talk about any of that stuff.

581
00:56:20,700 --> 00:56:23,700
And we both kind of feel bad about it

582
00:56:23,700 --> 00:56:26,420
because there were a lot of guys pre-2012

583
00:56:26,420 --> 00:56:29,180
that were still on the missions post-2012.

584
00:56:29,180 --> 00:56:33,260
And right when you get to that period of time where I left,

585
00:56:34,460 --> 00:56:35,700
the book kind of stops.

586
00:56:35,700 --> 00:56:39,100
And so we just kind of created the ending of it,

587
00:56:39,100 --> 00:56:42,300
which was with my team leader, Aaron Kirch.

588
00:56:42,300 --> 00:56:47,020
He sent us a letter called the Immortals and whatnot

589
00:56:47,020 --> 00:56:49,500
and talked about a lot of stuff that we did.

590
00:56:49,500 --> 00:56:54,140
The last person that got killed on my stick was a QRF.

591
00:56:54,140 --> 00:56:58,460
So the team was out near Jalalabad and they took a hit

592
00:56:58,460 --> 00:57:02,540
and the top gunner was killed instantly.

593
00:57:02,540 --> 00:57:05,740
And of course the rear gun truck had smashed

594
00:57:05,740 --> 00:57:07,020
into that other vehicle

595
00:57:07,020 --> 00:57:11,020
and their navigator suffered some injuries,

596
00:57:11,020 --> 00:57:13,340
but we had to go out there and recover them.

597
00:57:13,340 --> 00:57:15,540
And that was one on my birthday

598
00:57:15,540 --> 00:57:19,340
and two on the night before we were actually getting ready

599
00:57:19,340 --> 00:57:22,300
to end a mission.

600
00:57:22,300 --> 00:57:24,020
So it was like our last night.

601
00:57:24,020 --> 00:57:25,100
We were supposed to go to sleep

602
00:57:25,100 --> 00:57:26,420
and then go to the airport the next day.

603
00:57:26,420 --> 00:57:28,860
And we ended up running this mission at the last minute.

604
00:57:28,860 --> 00:57:32,500
So most of that stuff was with Ed.

605
00:57:34,100 --> 00:57:37,540
I helped him write up about a lot of that stuff

606
00:57:37,540 --> 00:57:39,660
because as we were talking,

607
00:57:39,660 --> 00:57:42,620
he was telling me about all these things that,

608
00:57:42,620 --> 00:57:45,340
these guys don't get credit for anything.

609
00:57:45,340 --> 00:57:46,780
We're contractors, we're there,

610
00:57:46,780 --> 00:57:49,220
we're getting paid all this money, blah, blah, blah.

611
00:57:49,220 --> 00:57:52,020
And we've been dubbed mercenaries,

612
00:57:52,020 --> 00:57:53,740
we've been called warmongers

613
00:57:53,740 --> 00:57:56,180
and all kinds of other things like that.

614
00:57:56,180 --> 00:57:59,500
But that's not the truth.

615
00:57:59,500 --> 00:58:00,540
It's not the case at all.

616
00:58:00,540 --> 00:58:01,820
We're just trying to do,

617
00:58:03,420 --> 00:58:05,220
we're guys that have a skillset

618
00:58:05,220 --> 00:58:07,340
that are trying to do a job.

619
00:58:07,340 --> 00:58:11,900
And we, aside from not getting the credit,

620
00:58:11,900 --> 00:58:13,380
guys were treated on the teams,

621
00:58:13,380 --> 00:58:15,020
they were treated differently

622
00:58:15,020 --> 00:58:17,300
when it came to repatriation and all kinds of things.

623
00:58:17,300 --> 00:58:21,500
So we had guys that got killed that were sent home as cargo

624
00:58:21,500 --> 00:58:24,300
as opposed to the military honors and whatnot.

625
00:58:24,300 --> 00:58:27,740
And what kind of a position are we in to help them

626
00:58:27,740 --> 00:58:30,980
and how can we help their family members and whatnot?

627
00:58:30,980 --> 00:58:33,060
So that tore on us quite a bit.

628
00:58:34,020 --> 00:58:36,300
And people don't realize a lot of the things that we went to

629
00:58:36,300 --> 00:58:38,540
because we formed this brotherhood.

630
00:58:38,540 --> 00:58:40,060
We're out there, we're working together.

631
00:58:40,060 --> 00:58:43,620
We don't care if you're from Bosnia or Serbia or Macedonia

632
00:58:43,620 --> 00:58:46,260
or Fiji or whatnot.

633
00:58:46,260 --> 00:58:49,620
We're all there doing the same job, taking the same risks.

634
00:58:49,620 --> 00:58:52,020
And it kind of tears on you

635
00:58:52,020 --> 00:58:54,300
because you can't do anything about it.

636
00:58:57,060 --> 00:58:59,620
Yeah, I mean, I remember my first guys,

637
00:59:00,820 --> 00:59:02,580
I had my first mission there.

638
00:59:02,580 --> 00:59:07,500
I had an evac on my vehicle, as a matter of fact.

639
00:59:07,500 --> 00:59:09,700
We tried to circumvent a roadblock.

640
00:59:09,700 --> 00:59:11,380
They were like, yeah, go down through there,

641
00:59:11,380 --> 00:59:13,500
cut through that village and pick up the road.

642
00:59:13,500 --> 00:59:15,900
You can pick up the highway a little bit later.

643
00:59:15,900 --> 00:59:18,100
And ended up hitting a landmine.

644
00:59:18,100 --> 00:59:21,420
And I was out of the vehicle at the time

645
00:59:21,420 --> 00:59:23,260
trying to scout a route.

646
00:59:23,260 --> 00:59:28,020
And I heard it, I looked over and it was like slow-mo

647
00:59:28,020 --> 00:59:29,820
where I just saw the cloud come up

648
00:59:29,820 --> 00:59:31,820
and I saw the rear bumper flying off.

649
00:59:31,820 --> 00:59:33,060
And I was like, oh no.

650
00:59:33,060 --> 00:59:35,900
And immediately I thought it was like an ambush.

651
00:59:35,900 --> 00:59:39,660
So I jumped into a ditch, Buddha jumped into a ditch.

652
00:59:39,660 --> 00:59:42,220
And it was just a mine strike.

653
00:59:42,220 --> 00:59:44,060
There was no fall on one fire.

654
00:59:44,060 --> 00:59:47,300
So we get down there, we were running down there.

655
00:59:47,300 --> 00:59:49,220
Somebody, I think it was Buddha that yelled out,

656
00:59:49,220 --> 00:59:51,660
hey, I think we're in a minefield.

657
00:59:51,660 --> 00:59:54,660
So now we have to sit there and slow down,

658
00:59:55,620 --> 00:59:57,580
step in other people's footsteps,

659
00:59:57,580 --> 01:00:00,540
get to the casualties, treat the casualties.

660
01:00:00,540 --> 01:00:05,540
And then after that, I tried to burn the vehicle.

661
01:00:07,300 --> 01:00:08,540
We're starting to drive out of there.

662
01:00:08,540 --> 01:00:10,020
We link up with the Army.

663
01:00:10,020 --> 01:00:12,220
The Army set up an LZ for us.

664
01:00:13,220 --> 01:00:15,020
They brought in the Blackhawks.

665
01:00:15,020 --> 01:00:17,900
We were able to get the casualties out

666
01:00:17,900 --> 01:00:20,300
and they flew them right over to Kandahar.

667
01:00:20,300 --> 01:00:23,940
And then, because that gun truck wasn't a complete burn,

668
01:00:25,820 --> 01:00:27,700
the Army, I told the Army,

669
01:00:27,700 --> 01:00:30,420
you guys can go ahead and destroy that.

670
01:00:30,420 --> 01:00:32,180
And they brought in a couple of helicopters

671
01:00:32,180 --> 01:00:34,500
and they each fired a couple of rockets into it.

672
01:00:34,500 --> 01:00:35,860
And then you could hear them talking on the radio,

673
01:00:35,860 --> 01:00:38,260
yes, nothing left of that truck but a couple axles.

674
01:00:38,260 --> 01:00:39,620
I was like, oh, thank you.

675
01:00:41,900 --> 01:00:45,940
But yeah, that was like, and those guys all lived.

676
01:00:45,940 --> 01:00:48,940
But because the trucks we had were flat bottom,

677
01:00:50,380 --> 01:00:52,340
there was no dissipation of the force

678
01:00:52,340 --> 01:00:54,860
when it came through, when it hit the vehicle.

679
01:00:54,860 --> 01:00:58,060
So all these, all the gunners in the back

680
01:00:58,060 --> 01:01:00,820
had massive lower extremity injuries.

681
01:01:02,540 --> 01:01:05,140
Even when I left, they still weren't walking right.

682
01:01:06,020 --> 01:01:11,020
And then the next time I was on my way to Shkinna,

683
01:01:11,020 --> 01:01:13,300
as a matter of fact, on my way to Organi.

684
01:01:13,300 --> 01:01:18,300
And we had just, I was just pulling around a corner.

685
01:01:18,860 --> 01:01:22,260
My vehicle was and I saw a big cloud come up in the air

686
01:01:22,260 --> 01:01:27,180
and I was like, oh shit, and I'm on the radio to lead.

687
01:01:27,180 --> 01:01:30,220
I'm like, lead, this is Hammer, lead, this is Hammer.

688
01:01:30,220 --> 01:01:33,020
And nothing, and as soon as I popped the corner

689
01:01:33,020 --> 01:01:35,780
in the vehicle, you could see the lead vehicle down,

690
01:01:35,780 --> 01:01:38,300
the doors all blown open, I was like, oops.

691
01:01:38,300 --> 01:01:41,100
So boom, me and Buddha deployed,

692
01:01:41,100 --> 01:01:42,500
I said, all right, hit the pings

693
01:01:42,500 --> 01:01:44,580
because we had the distress pings.

694
01:01:44,580 --> 01:01:49,060
We hit the pings and then I called to the talk

695
01:01:49,060 --> 01:01:52,140
and I was just talking to JJ and I was like,

696
01:01:52,140 --> 01:01:54,780
activate the EMS, activate the QRF,

697
01:01:54,780 --> 01:01:57,860
where I got the vehicle down, I got men down.

698
01:01:57,860 --> 01:01:59,620
And we ran up to it.

699
01:01:59,620 --> 01:02:02,580
And I remember as I'm warning and up to it,

700
01:02:02,580 --> 01:02:05,740
up to the vehicle, I saw this brown form on the ground.

701
01:02:05,740 --> 01:02:07,420
I thought it was a sleeping bag.

702
01:02:07,420 --> 01:02:10,460
I'm like, all right, please just let this be a sleeping bag.

703
01:02:10,460 --> 01:02:13,940
And I grabbed the bat, what I thought was a bag,

704
01:02:13,940 --> 01:02:14,780
but it was a shoulder.

705
01:02:14,780 --> 01:02:16,300
And I was like, as soon as I was getting close,

706
01:02:16,300 --> 01:02:18,140
I knew it wasn't a sleeping bag.

707
01:02:18,140 --> 01:02:20,220
Grabbed the shoulder, turned him over

708
01:02:20,220 --> 01:02:22,180
and it was my interpreter for a while.

709
01:02:22,180 --> 01:02:23,980
He was killed instantly.

710
01:02:23,980 --> 01:02:28,980
And on his way out, it's weird how you process it

711
01:02:29,540 --> 01:02:31,620
because he must have clipped his legs

712
01:02:31,620 --> 01:02:34,500
on the edge of the gun tub when he got shot

713
01:02:34,500 --> 01:02:36,940
out of the vehicle because his legs

714
01:02:36,940 --> 01:02:39,180
were amputated at the knees.

715
01:02:39,180 --> 01:02:41,060
But to show you how quick he died,

716
01:02:41,060 --> 01:02:43,700
he was dead probably before he left the vehicle,

717
01:02:43,700 --> 01:02:45,300
there was no blood.

718
01:02:45,300 --> 01:02:48,060
I mean, there was no blood at all from where he was laying.

719
01:02:48,060 --> 01:02:52,020
I was like, and then Buddha was right behind me, picket.

720
01:02:52,020 --> 01:02:54,740
Now he's a paramedic instructor.

721
01:02:54,740 --> 01:02:56,620
He'd been working the streets for a while.

722
01:02:56,620 --> 01:02:58,860
So he had seen lots of death.

723
01:02:59,900 --> 01:03:02,700
And I must have turned around and looked back

724
01:03:02,700 --> 01:03:03,980
and given him that stupid look like,

725
01:03:03,980 --> 01:03:05,940
gee doc, can you fix this guy?

726
01:03:05,940 --> 01:03:08,100
And he's like, fuck him, he's gone, let's go.

727
01:03:08,100 --> 01:03:10,660
And I was like, yeah, no shit, let's go, boom.

728
01:03:10,660 --> 01:03:12,900
Ran to the vehicle and it was all about working

729
01:03:12,900 --> 01:03:13,740
to save the living.

730
01:03:13,740 --> 01:03:18,740
And John jumped into the back, working on the two gunners

731
01:03:19,140 --> 01:03:21,620
and I saw Scott as we were running up,

732
01:03:21,620 --> 01:03:23,780
my ATL Scott Brown running.

733
01:03:23,780 --> 01:03:26,500
Well, he wasn't running, but he walks out of the vehicle

734
01:03:26,500 --> 01:03:30,140
carrying an AK and he walks up this hill

735
01:03:30,140 --> 01:03:32,140
and I'm running after him now.

736
01:03:32,140 --> 01:03:34,260
And I finally catch him, I was like, dude, you okay?

737
01:03:34,260 --> 01:03:35,700
And he's like, dude, I'm all fucked up.

738
01:03:35,700 --> 01:03:37,740
I'm on adrenaline right now, just so you know.

739
01:03:37,740 --> 01:03:40,820
And I was like, whatever you do, do not leave here.

740
01:03:40,820 --> 01:03:43,460
All right, I need to know where I can find you.

741
01:03:43,460 --> 01:03:47,100
Ran back down, we pulled Pero out of the vehicle.

742
01:03:48,140 --> 01:03:51,380
He was coughing up like huge amounts of blood.

743
01:03:51,380 --> 01:03:55,860
I mean, cause that IED went off probably right

744
01:03:55,860 --> 01:03:57,740
where the interpreter was sitting,

745
01:03:57,740 --> 01:03:59,660
but right behind the driver also.

746
01:03:59,660 --> 01:04:02,740
And it just blew about all his,

747
01:04:02,740 --> 01:04:04,500
it just destroyed all his innards.

748
01:04:04,500 --> 01:04:07,100
So he was coughing up huge amounts of blood.

749
01:04:07,100 --> 01:04:10,900
He was unconscious, we put him on the stretcher,

750
01:04:10,900 --> 01:04:13,140
got him out of there, got him into the back

751
01:04:13,140 --> 01:04:16,900
of the other gun truck and Pickett was just trying

752
01:04:16,900 --> 01:04:19,740
to go to work, trying to save him.

753
01:04:19,740 --> 01:04:24,740
But I think he knew, but you just don't give up.

754
01:04:24,740 --> 01:04:26,780
I mean, amongst those paramedics and the docs,

755
01:04:26,780 --> 01:04:27,620
they don't give up.

756
01:04:30,220 --> 01:04:34,220
He, so I was like, all right, let's go get him.

757
01:04:34,220 --> 01:04:37,060
Let's go grab Scott, we're gonna get out of here.

758
01:04:37,060 --> 01:04:40,100
He goes up the hill to go get Scott.

759
01:04:41,420 --> 01:04:43,460
I thought Scott could still walk by that.

760
01:04:43,460 --> 01:04:46,540
By now I'm still thinking Scott could still walk.

761
01:04:46,540 --> 01:04:48,660
And I'm turning the convoy around,

762
01:04:48,660 --> 01:04:50,660
getting it ready to roll out.

763
01:04:50,660 --> 01:04:55,660
And he carries him down and I'm looking at him like,

764
01:04:55,940 --> 01:04:57,660
oh shit, this ain't good.

765
01:04:57,660 --> 01:04:59,260
So I run over to him when he's on the ground

766
01:04:59,260 --> 01:05:01,500
and he's like, dude, you're gonna have to take him

767
01:05:01,500 --> 01:05:03,060
from here, so I just picked Scott up

768
01:05:03,060 --> 01:05:05,220
and I ran him over to the other gun truck.

769
01:05:05,220 --> 01:05:07,700
And I think it's kind of funny now,

770
01:05:07,700 --> 01:05:09,620
but at the time it wasn't.

771
01:05:09,620 --> 01:05:11,180
He's like, all right, whatever you do,

772
01:05:11,180 --> 01:05:12,940
when you put him down, be careful.

773
01:05:12,940 --> 01:05:15,580
And Scott's weight just shifted on me

774
01:05:15,580 --> 01:05:16,980
and I was like, don't.

775
01:05:16,980 --> 01:05:19,460
And I just dropped him right on the bumper.

776
01:05:19,460 --> 01:05:22,180
Now he's got a broken back and a fractured pelvis.

777
01:05:22,180 --> 01:05:24,300
That's what he ran up that hill with.

778
01:05:24,300 --> 01:05:26,220
That's why I still consider him one of the toughest dudes

779
01:05:26,220 --> 01:05:27,060
I've ever met.

780
01:05:29,180 --> 01:05:32,100
And when I dropped him on the bumper,

781
01:05:32,100 --> 01:05:34,660
he's like, ah, fuck, I'm sorry, bro.

782
01:05:34,660 --> 01:05:35,820
I'm sorry, dude.

783
01:05:37,660 --> 01:05:39,820
Yeah, God, yeah.

784
01:05:39,820 --> 01:05:44,500
And we got everybody back in the vehicles.

785
01:05:44,500 --> 01:05:46,820
Scott, because of his injuries, he had to stand

786
01:05:46,820 --> 01:05:49,220
until we got back to the organi.

787
01:05:51,500 --> 01:05:53,700
He manned the PKM.

788
01:05:53,700 --> 01:05:56,420
He manned the PKM for the next three hours

789
01:05:56,420 --> 01:05:57,820
because we couldn't stay on the roads anymore

790
01:05:57,820 --> 01:05:59,180
because that's where the IED was.

791
01:05:59,180 --> 01:06:00,940
So we had to stay in the stream beds.

792
01:06:00,940 --> 01:06:02,860
Now we're rock popping.

793
01:06:02,860 --> 01:06:05,620
And now every time that gun truck was doing this,

794
01:06:05,620 --> 01:06:09,300
Scott was going bone on bone on his pelvis and in his back.

795
01:06:10,460 --> 01:06:12,980
Yeah, you could hear him screaming for the next three hours.

796
01:06:12,980 --> 01:06:15,180
I was like, oh man, this ain't fucking good.

797
01:06:16,980 --> 01:06:19,980
You know, we had to get out one time

798
01:06:19,980 --> 01:06:21,620
because we saw something weird sticking out.

799
01:06:21,620 --> 01:06:26,460
Turns out it was wires that could have been from an IED

800
01:06:26,460 --> 01:06:27,980
that were just waiting for us to drive over it.

801
01:06:27,980 --> 01:06:31,060
So we had a, the civilians were skirting around it.

802
01:06:31,060 --> 01:06:32,740
So we skirted around it.

803
01:06:34,700 --> 01:06:36,260
You know, I'm like, I'm looking at Scott,

804
01:06:36,260 --> 01:06:38,460
I'm like, dude, you just gotta suck it up, man.

805
01:06:38,460 --> 01:06:40,900
I'm sorry, you just have to suck it up.

806
01:06:40,900 --> 01:06:45,220
I think Buddha gave him like the max amount of morphine

807
01:06:45,220 --> 01:06:46,820
you're allowed to give somebody.

808
01:06:47,980 --> 01:06:49,820
Because if you went over that,

809
01:06:49,820 --> 01:06:51,340
I think it was like 10 milligrams.

810
01:06:51,340 --> 01:06:52,420
10 milligrams, yeah.

811
01:06:52,420 --> 01:06:58,140
Because over that you could shut down their heart.

812
01:06:58,140 --> 01:07:00,540
So, you know, so Scott just had to suck it up

813
01:07:00,540 --> 01:07:02,620
for three hours, I remember that.

814
01:07:02,620 --> 01:07:06,700
And I remember, yeah, we lost Perro.

815
01:07:06,700 --> 01:07:09,700
Because I remember when we first got the convoy going again,

816
01:07:10,820 --> 01:07:14,380
it was one dead and four wounded.

817
01:07:14,380 --> 01:07:18,420
And about 10 minutes later, Buddha comes over the radio,

818
01:07:18,420 --> 01:07:20,340
be advised we're now at three patients.

819
01:07:20,340 --> 01:07:22,700
And I was like, oh fuck, we lost Perro.

820
01:07:22,700 --> 01:07:25,060
So I had to call back to the talk.

821
01:07:25,060 --> 01:07:27,780
And my driver, sir, but he was Perro's buddy.

822
01:07:27,780 --> 01:07:32,140
And I was like, hey, yeah, we're now down to three patients

823
01:07:32,140 --> 01:07:34,300
and two KIA.

824
01:07:34,300 --> 01:07:36,020
And they were like, all right, who'd you lose?

825
01:07:36,020 --> 01:07:37,380
I was like, fuck man, I don't wanna say this.

826
01:07:37,380 --> 01:07:39,820
Right next to Perro's friend here, I was like,

827
01:07:39,820 --> 01:07:41,340
yeah, it was Perro.

828
01:07:41,340 --> 01:07:43,900
And yeah, that was Marich that was the driver.

829
01:07:43,900 --> 01:07:45,180
And he's like, God damn.

830
01:07:45,180 --> 01:07:50,180
So we finally got back to the FAB at Organee.

831
01:07:51,580 --> 01:07:53,300
And it was weird though, they're like, yeah,

832
01:07:53,300 --> 01:07:56,940
we're talking to the client at this time.

833
01:07:56,940 --> 01:07:58,940
I'm like, all right, vehicle down,

834
01:07:58,940 --> 01:08:00,980
we're inbound with casualties.

835
01:08:00,980 --> 01:08:03,460
I need a QRF, I need a medevac.

836
01:08:03,460 --> 01:08:05,500
Yeah, we were on our own for that one.

837
01:08:05,500 --> 01:08:08,020
So for the next three hours, we drove out

838
01:08:08,020 --> 01:08:09,860
and then we finally make it to the hardball.

839
01:08:09,860 --> 01:08:11,660
That's where the QRF was sitting.

840
01:08:11,660 --> 01:08:13,300
I was like, you guys couldn't go in there

841
01:08:13,300 --> 01:08:14,140
and help us out with that?

842
01:08:14,140 --> 01:08:15,980
You couldn't go in there and help us out?

843
01:08:17,020 --> 01:08:18,460
Yeah, they wouldn't leave the road.

844
01:08:18,460 --> 01:08:20,860
Yeah, they wouldn't leave the hardball.

845
01:08:20,860 --> 01:08:25,860
So we finally get everybody up to the medical.

846
01:08:25,940 --> 01:08:28,020
They took the two dead out.

847
01:08:28,020 --> 01:08:32,220
They put them in the freezer, which is a makeshift morgue.

848
01:08:33,100 --> 01:08:36,940
And then we got all the wounded into the cache.

849
01:08:38,060 --> 01:08:42,140
And then after they were being all taken care of,

850
01:08:42,140 --> 01:08:47,140
Buddha went over to the two KIAs, to our interpreter.

851
01:08:51,060 --> 01:08:53,780
He's a practicing Buddha, so he just knew

852
01:08:53,780 --> 01:08:55,300
how to take care of the body.

853
01:08:55,300 --> 01:09:00,300
So he wiped it all down and then made sure it was all good

854
01:09:00,780 --> 01:09:04,300
and then put him back in the body bag.

855
01:09:04,300 --> 01:09:07,980
And then Perro, yeah, he cleaned him up too.

856
01:09:07,980 --> 01:09:12,980
And then, yeah, then after that,

857
01:09:12,980 --> 01:09:14,740
once we got everything all settled down,

858
01:09:14,740 --> 01:09:16,540
we went back up there.

859
01:09:16,540 --> 01:09:18,820
The two Afghans were sedated.

860
01:09:19,980 --> 01:09:24,660
And then Scott was lying there.

861
01:09:24,660 --> 01:09:26,340
We're all sitting there talking to Scott

862
01:09:26,340 --> 01:09:28,780
and then the kind of funny story here,

863
01:09:28,780 --> 01:09:32,540
because the doctor comes in, he's talking,

864
01:09:32,540 --> 01:09:36,300
all right, feeling up, doing the squeezing stuff.

865
01:09:36,300 --> 01:09:38,980
And then he goes under the tailbone

866
01:09:38,980 --> 01:09:41,780
and pinches up on the tailbone and Scott screams,

867
01:09:41,780 --> 01:09:43,660
he's like, yep, that's broken too.

868
01:09:43,660 --> 01:09:45,500
And I was like, oh shit.

869
01:09:45,500 --> 01:09:49,540
But for some reason, it was like we all look at each other

870
01:09:49,540 --> 01:09:53,260
and it's like, gay jokes start coming out right there.

871
01:09:53,260 --> 01:09:58,260
All the gay jokes had to come out, we had to do it.

872
01:09:59,100 --> 01:10:01,740
You know, oh, poor Scott, he can't fuck back.

873
01:10:01,740 --> 01:10:04,380
We look at one spot.

874
01:10:06,100 --> 01:10:08,140
No, he can't laugh because of his injuries

875
01:10:08,140 --> 01:10:09,900
and it hurts him to laugh.

876
01:10:09,900 --> 01:10:13,380
So he's laughing, he's crying because of the pain.

877
01:10:13,380 --> 01:10:15,820
And we just kept on with the jokes.

878
01:10:16,940 --> 01:10:18,900
But yeah, that's how we put him on that medevac.

879
01:10:18,900 --> 01:10:21,340
And he's like, all right, man.

880
01:10:21,340 --> 01:10:24,860
But yeah, I'm sure that he'll always remember that.

881
01:10:25,860 --> 01:10:26,700
So-

882
01:10:26,700 --> 01:10:27,820
He actually came back.

883
01:10:27,820 --> 01:10:30,700
Yeah, yeah, he came back six months later.

884
01:10:30,700 --> 01:10:35,380
He came back and he's like, yep, I asked him,

885
01:10:35,380 --> 01:10:36,220
dude, why are you back here?

886
01:10:36,220 --> 01:10:37,740
He's like, fuck that.

887
01:10:37,740 --> 01:10:40,420
I lead this shit whole country on my terms,

888
01:10:40,420 --> 01:10:43,420
not on the terms of some triggerment man who got lucky.

889
01:10:43,420 --> 01:10:45,540
I was like, there you go.

890
01:10:47,260 --> 01:10:48,500
Do it on your terms.

891
01:10:49,660 --> 01:10:52,580
I wanna just put something in and then we'll get to

892
01:10:52,580 --> 01:10:55,100
Matt and Chris, cause obviously based on the book again,

893
01:10:55,100 --> 01:10:57,420
that was a pretty brutal loss for you.

894
01:10:57,420 --> 01:11:01,980
When initially you were talking about protecting cargo

895
01:11:01,980 --> 01:11:04,780
specifically, then the male starts becoming part

896
01:11:04,780 --> 01:11:06,980
of what you're protecting as well.

897
01:11:06,980 --> 01:11:09,900
When I watched the little kind of 10 minute

898
01:11:09,900 --> 01:11:12,340
front style feature they did on you,

899
01:11:12,340 --> 01:11:15,660
it did a good job at underlining the value of that male

900
01:11:15,660 --> 01:11:17,740
for the actual war fighters themselves.

901
01:11:17,740 --> 01:11:20,060
So talk to me about how you got that contract

902
01:11:20,060 --> 01:11:23,260
and the impact that the male reaching on men and women

903
01:11:23,260 --> 01:11:27,180
was having as far as their own emotional status.

904
01:11:27,180 --> 01:11:29,420
Yeah, we got that contract.

905
01:11:30,300 --> 01:11:31,900
I guess somebody else had it before

906
01:11:31,900 --> 01:11:33,060
and they weren't pulling it off.

907
01:11:33,060 --> 01:11:36,580
So they rebid the contract, Sark got it.

908
01:11:36,580 --> 01:11:39,540
And then that's when we expended the program.

909
01:11:39,540 --> 01:11:40,860
We actually went to 14.

910
01:11:40,860 --> 01:11:44,180
So we're gonna have three teams on the deck at one time.

911
01:11:44,180 --> 01:11:46,700
And two of those teams were gonna be pushing male.

912
01:11:46,700 --> 01:11:51,060
The third team would be pushing the long haul C1

913
01:11:51,060 --> 01:11:56,060
for the client, the C1 runs, going to Harat,

914
01:11:56,060 --> 01:11:59,860
going to Kandahar, going to Lashkargarh.

915
01:12:02,300 --> 01:12:05,540
I think Spimboldak, Skin, Organi.

916
01:12:05,540 --> 01:12:06,980
I mean, yeah, if they-

917
01:12:06,980 --> 01:12:07,940
Jalalabad.

918
01:12:07,940 --> 01:12:09,220
Yeah, Jalalabad.

919
01:12:10,640 --> 01:12:14,940
If there was a site where the client had

920
01:12:14,940 --> 01:12:17,460
its own little secure compound, we drove there.

921
01:12:20,860 --> 01:12:23,140
But yeah, the male was important because they loved it.

922
01:12:23,140 --> 01:12:25,300
They was like, man, you guys are so reliable.

923
01:12:25,300 --> 01:12:27,660
You guys are so reliable.

924
01:12:27,660 --> 01:12:30,060
You get it here no matter what.

925
01:12:30,060 --> 01:12:35,060
I think we had like a 98% success rate on our drops.

926
01:12:35,140 --> 01:12:37,500
There's a couple of times we had to burn mail trucks

927
01:12:38,940 --> 01:12:40,740
but that was due to enemy action.

928
01:12:42,260 --> 01:12:43,620
But I think my best mail run,

929
01:12:43,620 --> 01:12:45,620
I mean, just to emphasize the importance of it,

930
01:12:45,620 --> 01:12:49,300
I mean, it was 22 December, like three days before Christmas

931
01:12:49,300 --> 01:12:51,380
we're driving down to Gardez.

932
01:12:51,380 --> 01:12:53,740
Usually Gardez only gets two mail trucks

933
01:12:53,740 --> 01:12:56,180
but now they were getting five.

934
01:12:56,180 --> 01:12:59,700
And I mean, we drove in there and then we,

935
01:12:59,700 --> 01:13:02,060
they saw and the army saw all these mail trucks

936
01:13:02,060 --> 01:13:03,900
and then we were like the Pied Piper.

937
01:13:03,900 --> 01:13:06,740
They all come out of nowhere and they're all following us.

938
01:13:06,740 --> 01:13:10,020
As we get to the mail, as we get to the post office,

939
01:13:10,020 --> 01:13:13,360
line up all the trucks, switch out the boxes,

940
01:13:16,100 --> 01:13:17,780
but yeah, I mean, they really,

941
01:13:17,780 --> 01:13:21,140
you knew that they were looking forward to that mail call

942
01:13:21,140 --> 01:13:24,820
like those were a huge mail call, so.

943
01:13:24,820 --> 01:13:27,300
Delivering the mail for the military

944
01:13:27,300 --> 01:13:29,980
wasn't one of their top priorities.

945
01:13:29,980 --> 01:13:33,180
They always had other missions that took precedence

946
01:13:33,180 --> 01:13:38,180
like hunter killer or search and destroy, recon, whatnot.

947
01:13:38,420 --> 01:13:43,340
So the mail would sit for several days

948
01:13:43,340 --> 01:13:44,380
without being delivered.

949
01:13:44,380 --> 01:13:46,740
And so, and it's not just mail that's being delivered,

950
01:13:46,740 --> 01:13:48,780
it's outgoing mail as well.

951
01:13:48,780 --> 01:13:51,580
And so once they got the contract,

952
01:13:51,580 --> 01:13:54,340
that's when they kind of dubbed us the Pony Express.

953
01:13:55,820 --> 01:13:58,260
And then we were actually successful

954
01:13:58,260 --> 01:13:59,900
in quite a few of these missions.

955
01:14:00,960 --> 01:14:03,740
I would say that our losses were minuscule

956
01:14:03,740 --> 01:14:06,540
in comparison to the amount of stuff that we actually did,

957
01:14:07,620 --> 01:14:10,580
that we did deliver because of the fact that

958
01:14:10,580 --> 01:14:15,180
we can't allow, we might know that we're delivering the mail

959
01:14:15,180 --> 01:14:17,700
but we don't know what the contents of that mail is.

960
01:14:17,700 --> 01:14:20,860
Could it be cash?

961
01:14:20,860 --> 01:14:22,620
Could it be other things?

962
01:14:22,620 --> 01:14:26,380
We had secure loads that were tagged on

963
01:14:26,380 --> 01:14:27,700
to a lot of those missions too.

964
01:14:27,700 --> 01:14:32,700
So we're delivering ammo, food, fuel, weapons,

965
01:14:32,780 --> 01:14:34,660
sometimes vehicles.

966
01:14:34,660 --> 01:14:36,900
Sometimes we'll run missions without a manifest

967
01:14:36,900 --> 01:14:37,940
if we don't know what it is

968
01:14:37,940 --> 01:14:39,940
and that's how classified the mission is.

969
01:14:40,960 --> 01:14:42,540
But we were the only ones that were ever able

970
01:14:42,540 --> 01:14:43,900
to get the job done.

971
01:14:43,900 --> 01:14:46,380
And then when we, a lot of places that we went to,

972
01:14:46,380 --> 01:14:49,740
maybe some ODA outposts, operational detachment alpha,

973
01:14:49,740 --> 01:14:53,780
special forces and whatnot, those guys, they loved us, man.

974
01:14:53,780 --> 01:14:55,940
I mean, they took great care.

975
01:14:55,940 --> 01:14:58,780
You know, they helped us with medical supplies.

976
01:14:58,780 --> 01:15:01,340
They fed us anything we needed,

977
01:15:01,340 --> 01:15:02,740
they would help us out with.

978
01:15:04,180 --> 01:15:07,820
They took care of us because we were taking care of them.

979
01:15:07,820 --> 01:15:09,980
What was it that you guys were doing

980
01:15:09,980 --> 01:15:12,700
that previous organizations weren't able to do?

981
01:15:13,820 --> 01:15:14,700
You know what?

982
01:15:14,700 --> 01:15:19,700
I never, they never told us why we, it wasn't like, all right.

983
01:15:20,740 --> 01:15:22,860
I can tell you a couple of things.

984
01:15:22,860 --> 01:15:26,660
Like another convoy service called the Four Horsemen.

985
01:15:26,660 --> 01:15:27,540
Yeah.

986
01:15:27,540 --> 01:15:31,180
They were running food and fuel convoys as well,

987
01:15:31,180 --> 01:15:33,200
but when they ran their convoys,

988
01:15:33,200 --> 01:15:36,120
they ran like four or 500 trucks at a time.

989
01:15:36,120 --> 01:15:39,060
And so it's a slow moving process

990
01:15:39,060 --> 01:15:41,100
and they got hit quite often.

991
01:15:41,100 --> 01:15:46,100
So they weren't reliable in that context.

992
01:15:47,100 --> 01:15:48,540
Two, they weren't vetted.

993
01:15:49,380 --> 01:15:53,140
They were a local national company that would run by expats,

994
01:15:53,140 --> 01:15:55,640
but it was primarily an Afghan company.

995
01:15:55,640 --> 01:15:58,660
So you can't trust them with any kind

996
01:15:58,660 --> 01:16:00,540
of a secure load like that.

997
01:16:01,580 --> 01:16:03,820
And then there was really nobody else.

998
01:16:03,820 --> 01:16:07,020
In early on in 2009, there weren't a lot of contractors

999
01:16:07,020 --> 01:16:10,200
there that were available to do it.

1000
01:16:10,200 --> 01:16:11,660
And then once we started doing it

1001
01:16:11,660 --> 01:16:16,460
and we had a great deal of success, two things happened.

1002
01:16:16,460 --> 01:16:18,060
One, we started getting more missions,

1003
01:16:18,060 --> 01:16:22,820
but two, we also became primary targets

1004
01:16:22,820 --> 01:16:25,180
as opposed to secondary targets.

1005
01:16:25,180 --> 01:16:27,760
And we actually got to a point where there was a bounty

1006
01:16:27,760 --> 01:16:30,060
on our heads to run these missions.

1007
01:16:30,060 --> 01:16:34,940
So it got worse before it got better.

1008
01:16:34,940 --> 01:16:36,340
Oh yeah.

1009
01:16:36,340 --> 01:16:37,440
Yeah.

1010
01:16:37,440 --> 01:16:39,980
I remember, yeah, Matt,

1011
01:16:39,980 --> 01:16:42,860
I mean, couple of times he got hit.

1012
01:16:42,860 --> 01:16:44,780
And one time he had to burn a mail truck

1013
01:16:44,780 --> 01:16:48,200
and Craig had to burn a mail truck because of ambushes.

1014
01:16:49,620 --> 01:16:53,980
One time Matt, he was running his convoy

1015
01:16:53,980 --> 01:16:56,700
and one of the mail truck drivers,

1016
01:16:56,700 --> 01:17:00,560
the Afghan driver flipped the truck on its side.

1017
01:17:00,560 --> 01:17:05,160
And so now they're cross loading the mail.

1018
01:17:05,160 --> 01:17:09,880
He pops open one of the other mail trucks, cuts the seal,

1019
01:17:09,880 --> 01:17:11,660
cuts the seal on the down truck.

1020
01:17:11,660 --> 01:17:15,620
They're cross loading all the mail.

1021
01:17:15,620 --> 01:17:16,820
And that's when they got lit up.

1022
01:17:16,820 --> 01:17:19,980
I think that was an ambush of opportunity right there

1023
01:17:19,980 --> 01:17:24,860
because right then and there, boom, all right, we got to go.

1024
01:17:24,860 --> 01:17:27,660
They had to burn what was left of the mail in that truck.

1025
01:17:27,660 --> 01:17:31,380
And then they had to make their way to Jalalabad.

1026
01:17:31,380 --> 01:17:33,180
And then same thing happened to Craig.

1027
01:17:33,180 --> 01:17:37,420
On the Craig Smith, I think an IED knocked out the engine

1028
01:17:37,420 --> 01:17:42,100
of one of the mail trucks, was immovable.

1029
01:17:42,100 --> 01:17:47,020
He's cross loading mail and then the ambush hits.

1030
01:17:47,020 --> 01:17:49,140
And then so he had to fight his way off.

1031
01:17:49,140 --> 01:17:51,320
And before he left, he had to burn the truck,

1032
01:17:51,320 --> 01:17:52,160
which is weird though,

1033
01:17:52,160 --> 01:17:55,220
because I got Craig on one phone talking to him.

1034
01:17:55,220 --> 01:17:56,380
I'm like, dude, burn the truck.

1035
01:17:56,380 --> 01:17:58,540
No matter if you think you need to burn that truck,

1036
01:17:58,540 --> 01:17:59,780
you burn it.

1037
01:17:59,780 --> 01:18:02,540
And I'm talking to that guy that owns the truck company,

1038
01:18:02,540 --> 01:18:03,900
an Afghan, Mr. Suleiman.

1039
01:18:03,900 --> 01:18:06,400
And he's like, no, please don't burn my truck.

1040
01:18:06,400 --> 01:18:07,700
Please don't burn my truck.

1041
01:18:07,700 --> 01:18:11,060
I'm like, dude, I don't care what anybody says.

1042
01:18:11,060 --> 01:18:12,500
I got your back, burn that truck

1043
01:18:12,500 --> 01:18:14,120
if you need to burn the truck.

1044
01:18:14,120 --> 01:18:18,060
And yeah, I think he ended up burning the truck.

1045
01:18:18,060 --> 01:18:22,100
And, but he made, he got the rest of the mail

1046
01:18:22,100 --> 01:18:23,440
to the Jalalabad.

1047
01:18:24,620 --> 01:18:26,480
Yeah, we burned one when Mark's team got hit

1048
01:18:26,480 --> 01:18:28,000
coming out of J-Bad.

1049
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:30,500
So, I mean, they'd already dropped their load off,

1050
01:18:30,500 --> 01:18:33,420
but now they're picking up outgoing mail

1051
01:18:33,420 --> 01:18:37,620
that's supposed to be transported to bag room processing.

1052
01:18:37,620 --> 01:18:42,140
And it was just the one mail truck out of three.

1053
01:18:42,140 --> 01:18:45,500
But those trucks are huge and they're full of mail.

1054
01:18:45,500 --> 01:18:47,260
So, you gotta think about all that stuff

1055
01:18:47,260 --> 01:18:49,380
that was getting sent home.

1056
01:18:49,380 --> 01:18:53,300
And obviously that's secondary in your mind

1057
01:18:53,300 --> 01:18:56,980
because you're worried about the casualties, et cetera.

1058
01:18:56,980 --> 01:19:01,580
But yeah, that truck actually caught fire on its own,

1059
01:19:01,580 --> 01:19:04,620
but we threw thermite grenades in there

1060
01:19:04,620 --> 01:19:08,460
just to exacerbate the burning process, so to speak.

1061
01:19:09,740 --> 01:19:13,260
Because you can't sit around on these exits

1062
01:19:13,260 --> 01:19:16,060
for any time at all because they'll take advantage of you.

1063
01:19:17,580 --> 01:19:19,060
Well, Ed, you mentioned Matt.

1064
01:19:19,060 --> 01:19:21,920
So talk to me about the journey

1065
01:19:21,920 --> 01:19:24,140
where you lost Matt and Chris then.

1066
01:19:24,140 --> 01:19:27,200
You know, I first met Chris, Jesus.

1067
01:19:27,200 --> 01:19:32,200
You know, first met Chris in June or July of 2010.

1068
01:19:36,520 --> 01:19:40,200
And now I've been running some other missions and stuff

1069
01:19:40,200 --> 01:19:44,320
as a team leader still after I got hit in April, 2010.

1070
01:19:44,320 --> 01:19:48,360
I lost those two guys, Fawad and Perro.

1071
01:19:48,360 --> 01:19:53,360
Now it's like June or July and I got a new ATL.

1072
01:19:53,680 --> 01:19:56,720
And so I'm looking at Chris, I'm talking to him.

1073
01:19:56,720 --> 01:19:58,400
And then we go in to talk to Rector

1074
01:19:58,400 --> 01:20:00,120
because you got a mission coming down.

1075
01:20:00,120 --> 01:20:02,120
Go in to talk to Rector and he's like,

1076
01:20:02,120 --> 01:20:04,080
all right, you're going back into skin.

1077
01:20:04,080 --> 01:20:08,480
And I think a lot of people were sitting there saying

1078
01:20:08,480 --> 01:20:10,480
he's gonna quit when you tell them that.

1079
01:20:11,360 --> 01:20:15,040
But the color, I mean, from what they all said,

1080
01:20:15,040 --> 01:20:16,560
the color drained out of my face.

1081
01:20:16,560 --> 01:20:17,700
I was like, oh, okay.

1082
01:20:18,800 --> 01:20:19,640
Talk to Chris.

1083
01:20:19,640 --> 01:20:21,300
I was like, all right, we gotta get over to Phoenix.

1084
01:20:21,300 --> 01:20:23,540
I gotta go talk to the S2 over there

1085
01:20:23,540 --> 01:20:27,120
and I gotta get on the SIPRnet

1086
01:20:27,120 --> 01:20:29,840
so I could talk to the guys down in Sharona,

1087
01:20:29,840 --> 01:20:31,680
the road clearing crew

1088
01:20:31,680 --> 01:20:34,080
and see when they're clearing those routes.

1089
01:20:34,080 --> 01:20:38,480
So I get down there and I talk to the platoon commander

1090
01:20:38,480 --> 01:20:43,480
of the, over the phone, I'm talking to the platoon commander

1091
01:20:43,920 --> 01:20:46,380
and of the route clearing team.

1092
01:20:46,380 --> 01:20:48,560
And he's like, oh yeah, we're gonna be there

1093
01:20:48,560 --> 01:20:49,760
from this day to this day.

1094
01:20:49,760 --> 01:20:51,440
And I was like, that's what I'm gonna be in there.

1095
01:20:51,440 --> 01:20:54,120
All right, this is gonna work out just great.

1096
01:20:54,120 --> 01:20:56,920
When we do the mission, we push into the valley.

1097
01:20:58,080 --> 01:21:00,040
Sure as shit, the one guy, the first guy I meet

1098
01:21:00,040 --> 01:21:01,400
is that lieutenant.

1099
01:21:01,400 --> 01:21:04,580
Shook his hand and we talked for a few minutes.

1100
01:21:04,580 --> 01:21:07,240
And then he's talking to the Apache helicopters.

1101
01:21:07,240 --> 01:21:09,440
They fly over us, they mark us.

1102
01:21:09,440 --> 01:21:11,600
They say, all right, we know what they look like.

1103
01:21:11,600 --> 01:21:13,000
We're gonna keep an eye on these guys.

1104
01:21:13,000 --> 01:21:16,360
So I was like, dude, this is gonna be too goddamn easy.

1105
01:21:16,360 --> 01:21:17,580
We get down there.

1106
01:21:17,580 --> 01:21:21,980
We had a lot, we did the organi drop.

1107
01:21:21,980 --> 01:21:24,620
Then we had to pick up these huge generators,

1108
01:21:24,620 --> 01:21:27,500
but then we had to cross deck them onto these bigger

1109
01:21:27,500 --> 01:21:32,500
off-road like the Mercedes and Kamaz trucks

1110
01:21:34,580 --> 01:21:37,560
that can handle the off-road conditions.

1111
01:21:37,560 --> 01:21:39,860
Cause that road between organi and skin

1112
01:21:39,860 --> 01:21:43,360
is like a dirt track pretty much.

1113
01:21:43,360 --> 01:21:47,660
And so yeah, there was a bit of drama with that

1114
01:21:47,660 --> 01:21:50,500
because one of the trucks with the big generator on it,

1115
01:21:50,500 --> 01:21:51,940
he got a flat.

1116
01:21:51,940 --> 01:21:54,380
Now the truck's sitting at an angle like this,

1117
01:21:54,380 --> 01:21:56,460
the generator shifting.

1118
01:21:56,460 --> 01:21:59,220
So about every half hour we had to stop,

1119
01:21:59,220 --> 01:22:03,540
hook up a strap to one of the other cargo trucks

1120
01:22:03,540 --> 01:22:07,620
and snap it so it would shift the generator

1121
01:22:07,620 --> 01:22:10,020
so the truck would sit level for a little while.

1122
01:22:10,020 --> 01:22:15,020
We ended up getting into skin at about a quarter to midnight.

1123
01:22:19,260 --> 01:22:22,960
I remember that because we did it with 15 minutes to spare.

1124
01:22:22,960 --> 01:22:26,540
We get in there, they took the controller trucks

1125
01:22:26,540 --> 01:22:28,380
and I'm just sitting there looking at that one truck

1126
01:22:28,380 --> 01:22:29,380
that's leaning like that.

1127
01:22:29,380 --> 01:22:31,060
I was like, I'm gonna laugh my ass off.

1128
01:22:31,060 --> 01:22:34,420
That thing just falls on its side in the yard, too bad.

1129
01:22:35,340 --> 01:22:36,780
But they were appreciated.

1130
01:22:36,780 --> 01:22:38,900
They appreciated those two generators

1131
01:22:38,900 --> 01:22:40,860
because I guess they were having problems

1132
01:22:40,860 --> 01:22:43,420
with their other one to keep their site running.

1133
01:22:43,420 --> 01:22:47,860
So yeah, but that was my first intro to Chris.

1134
01:22:47,860 --> 01:22:49,320
I mean, he was always on it,

1135
01:22:49,320 --> 01:22:51,300
making sure everything was strapped down.

1136
01:22:52,540 --> 01:22:55,660
I was handling all the ops details.

1137
01:22:55,660 --> 01:22:58,500
Real good dude, he was a former Marine machine gunner

1138
01:22:58,500 --> 01:23:00,240
and he fought in Fallujah.

1139
01:23:02,480 --> 01:23:05,780
Yeah, so we did a couple missions together there

1140
01:23:05,780 --> 01:23:07,940
and then we went up to Fobb Tiger

1141
01:23:07,940 --> 01:23:11,580
then to Fobb Hadrian to drop off supplies

1142
01:23:11,580 --> 01:23:13,080
then we had to come back down.

1143
01:23:14,980 --> 01:23:16,380
No, he's just a solid dude.

1144
01:23:16,380 --> 01:23:21,380
And then team five, that team leader,

1145
01:23:21,500 --> 01:23:25,420
that was his first time going into the valley to skin.

1146
01:23:26,500 --> 01:23:28,660
They just got the mission assigned to him.

1147
01:23:28,660 --> 01:23:29,500
So I was like, all right.

1148
01:23:29,500 --> 01:23:31,860
And it was RSOP back then.

1149
01:23:32,780 --> 01:23:35,100
Last team through the valley,

1150
01:23:35,100 --> 01:23:37,940
you go ahead and give up your ATL

1151
01:23:37,940 --> 01:23:39,540
because the ATL, the assistant team leader

1152
01:23:39,540 --> 01:23:40,900
was also the navigator.

1153
01:23:42,580 --> 01:23:43,860
So I could show them the routes

1154
01:23:43,860 --> 01:23:45,220
and the do's and the don'ts.

1155
01:23:46,140 --> 01:23:49,940
And so Chris and Matt were up on the lead vehicle

1156
01:23:51,100 --> 01:23:55,420
and that's when they hit that IED

1157
01:23:55,420 --> 01:23:59,860
and it just flipped the truck up on its back end.

1158
01:23:59,860 --> 01:24:02,060
And you can see it just sitting up on its back,

1159
01:24:02,060 --> 01:24:03,940
rear bumper and it was like, wow.

1160
01:24:03,940 --> 01:24:07,380
The three gunners walked away from it

1161
01:24:07,380 --> 01:24:10,020
but Matt and Chris were killed instantly.

1162
01:24:10,020 --> 01:24:11,900
Matt wasn't buck belted in

1163
01:24:11,900 --> 01:24:14,300
so he was blown out of the vehicle.

1164
01:24:14,300 --> 01:24:16,980
Chris was belted in so he was still in the vehicle

1165
01:24:16,980 --> 01:24:19,020
and the team leader made the call to leave

1166
01:24:19,020 --> 01:24:22,220
Chris in the vehicle once he recovered Matt.

1167
01:24:22,220 --> 01:24:24,540
And we asked him why.

1168
01:24:24,540 --> 01:24:26,920
I mean, his story is so full of holes.

1169
01:24:28,780 --> 01:24:33,100
It was like, pretty much it came down to the team leader

1170
01:24:33,100 --> 01:24:34,540
didn't do his damn job.

1171
01:24:34,540 --> 01:24:39,540
And he just probably, he probably needed it just to be,

1172
01:24:39,620 --> 01:24:41,060
I mean, I wanted to hurt him.

1173
01:24:42,140 --> 01:24:45,140
And I mean, just to sit here when we're debriefing him

1174
01:24:45,140 --> 01:24:49,180
and what happened, what he was saying on the telephone

1175
01:24:49,180 --> 01:24:51,460
at the time when he was calling back to us saying,

1176
01:24:51,460 --> 01:24:55,740
hey, I've been hit versus what actually happened

1177
01:24:55,740 --> 01:24:58,140
with two totally different things like the-

1178
01:24:58,140 --> 01:25:00,180
Yeah, he said the vehicle was on fire.

1179
01:25:00,180 --> 01:25:01,780
Yeah, he said the vehicle was on fire.

1180
01:25:01,780 --> 01:25:03,700
He said they were under fire.

1181
01:25:03,700 --> 01:25:07,380
So when we first heard that, we're like, all right,

1182
01:25:07,380 --> 01:25:08,880
well, that's understandable.

1183
01:25:10,700 --> 01:25:15,700
But then when they recovered the body

1184
01:25:16,140 --> 01:25:17,740
and they brought him back, he wasn't burnt at all.

1185
01:25:17,740 --> 01:25:21,100
He was just missing his, he was just missing a lower leg

1186
01:25:21,100 --> 01:25:26,100
and his right arm from the blast coming up through the floor.

1187
01:25:28,440 --> 01:25:31,660
And we're like, this is not jive with what you said

1188
01:25:31,660 --> 01:25:35,120
and we wanted to, I wanted to hurt him.

1189
01:25:36,060 --> 01:25:38,820
Rector wanted to fire him, but corporate was like,

1190
01:25:38,820 --> 01:25:41,540
once again, this goes into the business aspect of war too

1191
01:25:41,540 --> 01:25:43,780
while we're talking about it.

1192
01:25:43,780 --> 01:25:45,900
Corporate was like, ah, we don't want a lawsuit.

1193
01:25:45,900 --> 01:25:47,660
So what we're gonna do, we're just gonna stick him

1194
01:25:47,660 --> 01:25:49,660
on a static site and forget,

1195
01:25:50,740 --> 01:25:52,380
hopefully he won't screw that up.

1196
01:25:54,380 --> 01:25:56,020
But he ended up screwing that one up too

1197
01:25:56,020 --> 01:25:58,100
because I ended up taking over that static site

1198
01:25:58,100 --> 01:25:59,940
when I got done with the roads.

1199
01:25:59,940 --> 01:26:01,260
And I was like, Jesus.

1200
01:26:01,260 --> 01:26:03,140
Yeah, he was a piece of work.

1201
01:26:05,460 --> 01:26:06,540
Just to jump in there,

1202
01:26:06,540 --> 01:26:09,420
just when I was reading that one chapter,

1203
01:26:10,300 --> 01:26:14,140
the initially being unclear of as if he was definitely

1204
01:26:14,140 --> 01:26:17,100
a hundred percent killed on impact,

1205
01:26:17,100 --> 01:26:18,340
I forget how you worded it,

1206
01:26:18,340 --> 01:26:20,820
what was that you had this image

1207
01:26:20,820 --> 01:26:23,060
of the last moments of his life

1208
01:26:23,060 --> 01:26:25,220
watching the truck pulling away.

1209
01:26:25,220 --> 01:26:28,060
Yeah, because nobody confirmed the remains.

1210
01:26:28,060 --> 01:26:30,500
The team medic didn't go up into the vehicle and say,

1211
01:26:30,500 --> 01:26:31,620
all right, he's dead.

1212
01:26:32,740 --> 01:26:36,140
At least look in there and say, all right, no, he doesn't.

1213
01:26:36,140 --> 01:26:37,460
All right, he's dead.

1214
01:26:37,460 --> 01:26:38,700
Nobody did that.

1215
01:26:41,100 --> 01:26:44,380
So for all we know, the last sound he heard on this

1216
01:26:44,380 --> 01:26:46,740
before he went, the last sound he heard

1217
01:26:46,740 --> 01:26:48,860
was that convoy driving away, leaving him.

1218
01:26:52,220 --> 01:26:54,220
Yeah, it's hard for a lot of us to choke down

1219
01:26:54,220 --> 01:26:57,940
because a lot of times,

1220
01:26:57,940 --> 01:27:01,020
you can't chalk this up to fog of war.

1221
01:27:01,020 --> 01:27:02,620
You're trained to do a mission.

1222
01:27:02,620 --> 01:27:04,140
You're trained to react to a mission.

1223
01:27:04,140 --> 01:27:06,420
You're trained to do all of these things.

1224
01:27:06,420 --> 01:27:09,820
And none of that stuff happened on that one run.

1225
01:27:09,820 --> 01:27:13,780
And to hear one thing and then find out it's something else

1226
01:27:13,780 --> 01:27:17,340
that now you're second guessing everything and whatnot.

1227
01:27:17,340 --> 01:27:20,340
So it's difficult,

1228
01:27:20,340 --> 01:27:22,620
because we stay in touch with all these people

1229
01:27:22,620 --> 01:27:25,220
and these family members, they're still pissed off

1230
01:27:25,220 --> 01:27:30,220
about what went on and how do you console somebody

1231
01:27:31,540 --> 01:27:33,300
when you're not in control?

1232
01:27:36,140 --> 01:27:38,940
So yeah, it was bad.

1233
01:27:38,940 --> 01:27:41,220
It was a bad thing all the way around.

1234
01:27:41,220 --> 01:27:45,220
And oh yeah, I mean, it was, I mean, yeah.

1235
01:27:46,780 --> 01:27:49,540
And I still can't, well, I mean, I'm still,

1236
01:27:49,540 --> 01:27:52,700
but then I'm surprised that he was at the very least

1237
01:27:52,700 --> 01:27:53,540
he didn't get fired.

1238
01:27:53,540 --> 01:27:56,780
But I mean, once again, I mean,

1239
01:27:56,780 --> 01:27:58,620
when you start getting into a civilian contract,

1240
01:27:58,620 --> 01:28:00,420
you're getting into the business side of war

1241
01:28:00,420 --> 01:28:05,420
and they wanna mitigate their risk, their liability.

1242
01:28:05,660 --> 01:28:08,580
So they don't want a wrongful termination lawsuit.

1243
01:28:08,580 --> 01:28:12,380
So they're gonna go ahead and stick them on another jobs,

1244
01:28:12,380 --> 01:28:14,380
sticking them up, stick them on another job

1245
01:28:14,380 --> 01:28:17,340
where hopefully he won't screw up too bad

1246
01:28:17,340 --> 01:28:19,020
is what the mindset was.

1247
01:28:19,020 --> 01:28:23,060
So when I hear people talking about issues

1248
01:28:23,060 --> 01:28:25,300
in their community, their tribe,

1249
01:28:25,300 --> 01:28:28,980
especially if there's stress or even betrayal,

1250
01:28:28,980 --> 01:28:30,900
this, for example, a law enforcement officer

1251
01:28:30,900 --> 01:28:31,900
does all the right things

1252
01:28:31,900 --> 01:28:34,740
and then their department or city turns on them,

1253
01:28:34,740 --> 01:28:38,100
the mental health cost of that

1254
01:28:38,100 --> 01:28:39,900
is probably one of the least discussed elements

1255
01:28:39,900 --> 01:28:41,980
probably behind suicides, for example.

1256
01:28:42,980 --> 01:28:45,980
When that happened, you guys have been a cohesive team,

1257
01:28:45,980 --> 01:28:48,060
you're leaning into this group

1258
01:28:48,060 --> 01:28:50,020
that should have done the right thing and then they didn't

1259
01:28:50,020 --> 01:28:52,540
and then they don't hold the person accountable.

1260
01:28:52,540 --> 01:28:55,060
What did that do for the rest of the team mentally?

1261
01:28:55,060 --> 01:28:56,340
Oh, I mean, people were pissed.

1262
01:28:56,340 --> 01:29:00,300
I know Bedford was like,

1263
01:29:00,300 --> 01:29:02,700
dude, I can't sleep just thinking about this guy.

1264
01:29:02,700 --> 01:29:04,300
I just can't sleep.

1265
01:29:04,300 --> 01:29:06,820
I mean, guys were losing sleep over it.

1266
01:29:09,100 --> 01:29:09,940
Yeah.

1267
01:29:11,940 --> 01:29:16,180
Let's say you find out about having a terminal illness

1268
01:29:16,180 --> 01:29:18,700
or whatnot, you go through these stages,

1269
01:29:18,700 --> 01:29:22,980
which is denial and then anger and whatnot.

1270
01:29:23,860 --> 01:29:27,300
Anger was the first thing that popped in these guys' heads.

1271
01:29:27,300 --> 01:29:30,060
And then when you go for a period of time without sleep,

1272
01:29:30,060 --> 01:29:32,460
it kind of tears on your emotions even further

1273
01:29:32,460 --> 01:29:37,460
because then now your own body is starting to shut down

1274
01:29:37,660 --> 01:29:40,460
and you're not 100%.

1275
01:29:40,460 --> 01:29:43,580
Now these guys have to turn around and still run missions

1276
01:29:43,580 --> 01:29:45,740
and they have this on their mind

1277
01:29:45,740 --> 01:29:46,580
and whatnot.

1278
01:29:46,580 --> 01:29:50,460
So it takes a greater toll psychologically

1279
01:29:50,460 --> 01:29:53,060
that a lot of people will actually come out and say.

1280
01:29:53,060 --> 01:29:54,300
So.

1281
01:29:54,300 --> 01:29:55,140
100%.

1282
01:29:55,140 --> 01:29:57,860
Well, I mean, we see it in the fire service so often

1283
01:29:57,860 --> 01:30:00,060
and then sleep deprivation is ingrained in what we do.

1284
01:30:00,060 --> 01:30:01,220
And then you add in,

1285
01:30:01,220 --> 01:30:03,580
I was just talking to a police officer the other day

1286
01:30:03,580 --> 01:30:07,020
who was LAPD, which his experience of going through

1287
01:30:07,020 --> 01:30:10,220
their academy said the bar was set so, so high.

1288
01:30:10,220 --> 01:30:12,580
Then he went to Chicago and spent,

1289
01:30:12,580 --> 01:30:14,660
I think it was 13 years there.

1290
01:30:14,660 --> 01:30:16,700
And he said it was the opposite.

1291
01:30:16,700 --> 01:30:18,820
And then you saw what happened with the mayor of Chicago

1292
01:30:18,820 --> 01:30:20,660
when we got through the last two or three years

1293
01:30:20,660 --> 01:30:22,380
and what they did to law enforcement.

1294
01:30:22,380 --> 01:30:24,540
I mean, imagine that you've given everything

1295
01:30:24,540 --> 01:30:27,380
and then your city just cuts your legs from under you.

1296
01:30:27,380 --> 01:30:30,260
I mean, this is a big part of the first responder

1297
01:30:30,260 --> 01:30:32,140
of military suicide crisis, I think,

1298
01:30:32,140 --> 01:30:33,020
that we don't talk about.

1299
01:30:33,020 --> 01:30:35,700
Sleep deprivation and organizational betrayal.

1300
01:30:38,020 --> 01:30:39,980
And that's why I wanna talk about the resilience

1301
01:30:39,980 --> 01:30:41,180
of some of these guys.

1302
01:30:41,180 --> 01:30:45,420
PTSD was probably really low on the totem pole

1303
01:30:45,420 --> 01:30:47,860
because when we talk about the business side of war,

1304
01:30:47,860 --> 01:30:51,620
the corporate office is making decisions from guys

1305
01:30:51,620 --> 01:30:54,180
that don't have operational experience.

1306
01:30:54,180 --> 01:30:56,660
Two, it's about saving money

1307
01:30:56,660 --> 01:30:58,540
and increasing your profit margin.

1308
01:31:00,060 --> 01:31:03,300
We ended up replacing ex-pat drivers

1309
01:31:03,300 --> 01:31:04,660
with third country nationals

1310
01:31:04,660 --> 01:31:07,900
and third country nationals with local nationals.

1311
01:31:07,900 --> 01:31:09,820
These guys couldn't drive a taxi cab,

1312
01:31:09,820 --> 01:31:11,620
let alone a tactical vehicle.

1313
01:31:11,620 --> 01:31:14,100
And now you gotta run these missions with these guys

1314
01:31:14,100 --> 01:31:16,420
that are, if the window could be rolled down,

1315
01:31:16,420 --> 01:31:18,940
they'd have it out the window like it was no big deal.

1316
01:31:18,940 --> 01:31:23,940
But you have to adjust to this method of operation

1317
01:31:27,340 --> 01:31:30,020
knowing that these guys are making decisions

1318
01:31:30,020 --> 01:31:33,380
that could affect your livelihood and your lives,

1319
01:31:34,540 --> 01:31:36,180
but you gotta deal with it.

1320
01:31:36,180 --> 01:31:38,260
And it kinda pisses you off,

1321
01:31:38,260 --> 01:31:41,660
but you just roll with the punches.

1322
01:31:45,500 --> 01:31:48,020
While we're talking, Alan, let's go to transition.

1323
01:31:48,020 --> 01:31:50,660
So you, as we have people watching this now,

1324
01:31:50,660 --> 01:31:52,420
I can see you're in a firefight uniform.

1325
01:31:52,420 --> 01:31:54,820
So talk to me about your decision to transition

1326
01:31:54,820 --> 01:31:56,500
out of the contracting side

1327
01:31:56,500 --> 01:31:58,860
and go back into the first responder community.

1328
01:32:00,980 --> 01:32:05,900
Well, I retired the first time in 2005.

1329
01:32:05,900 --> 01:32:08,420
And then when I got back from contracting,

1330
01:32:08,420 --> 01:32:13,420
I took a job working at an urgent care center.

1331
01:32:13,460 --> 01:32:16,780
At first I was at Lowe's, which was really nice,

1332
01:32:16,780 --> 01:32:18,300
but it wasn't paying very much money.

1333
01:32:18,300 --> 01:32:20,260
And then I started doing clinical medicine

1334
01:32:20,260 --> 01:32:23,940
because it gave me an opportunity to decompress.

1335
01:32:23,940 --> 01:32:27,860
But there's always this need to serve,

1336
01:32:27,860 --> 01:32:30,420
to do things greater than yourselves.

1337
01:32:30,420 --> 01:32:33,300
I really missed the camaraderie and the brotherhood.

1338
01:32:33,300 --> 01:32:35,700
And so I went back into the fire service.

1339
01:32:35,700 --> 01:32:38,620
My certifications might've expired,

1340
01:32:38,620 --> 01:32:42,060
but I was still in a situation

1341
01:32:42,060 --> 01:32:45,220
where I could garner up some CE hours

1342
01:32:45,220 --> 01:32:47,260
and get those certifications back.

1343
01:32:48,220 --> 01:32:51,220
I started working here and I love it.

1344
01:32:54,540 --> 01:32:56,220
I'm getting ready to transition again

1345
01:32:56,220 --> 01:33:00,980
from an operations suppression lieutenant into a logistic.

1346
01:33:00,980 --> 01:33:03,300
So that's gonna be a lot easier on me

1347
01:33:03,300 --> 01:33:05,220
because now I'm at the age where

1348
01:33:05,220 --> 01:33:07,460
I just can't kick doors in anymore.

1349
01:33:08,620 --> 01:33:10,100
I became an engineer,

1350
01:33:10,100 --> 01:33:11,500
so that kind of helped out a little bit,

1351
01:33:11,500 --> 01:33:15,260
but now I'm probably gonna go over to logistics

1352
01:33:15,260 --> 01:33:18,180
and then retire a third time.

1353
01:33:18,180 --> 01:33:19,740
Logistics would be a 40 hour week,

1354
01:33:19,740 --> 01:33:21,860
so you finally get off shifts as well.

1355
01:33:21,860 --> 01:33:23,660
Yeah, and weekends off,

1356
01:33:23,660 --> 01:33:26,420
so spending more time with the family and whatnot.

1357
01:33:26,420 --> 01:33:29,860
So that's gonna help.

1358
01:33:29,860 --> 01:33:32,860
Now, what about the emotional slash mental health side

1359
01:33:32,860 --> 01:33:33,700
for you?

1360
01:33:33,700 --> 01:33:36,020
You've gone through a pretty storied career

1361
01:33:36,020 --> 01:33:39,820
from early EMS into combat and then out the other end.

1362
01:33:39,820 --> 01:33:42,620
What have been your highs and lows for you specifically?

1363
01:33:44,020 --> 01:33:48,180
I really never had any issues about it until we started...

1364
01:33:50,700 --> 01:33:52,860
Well, there was a guy,

1365
01:33:52,860 --> 01:33:54,300
we talked about Money Mike earlier

1366
01:33:54,300 --> 01:33:59,180
and he was pulling security on some movie sets in Louisiana

1367
01:33:59,180 --> 01:34:00,500
and he had met some people that said,

1368
01:34:00,500 --> 01:34:03,780
hey, this would be a great idea for a mini series

1369
01:34:03,780 --> 01:34:04,620
or something like that.

1370
01:34:04,620 --> 01:34:07,580
So they hired a writer named Michael Sokol,

1371
01:34:07,580 --> 01:34:11,540
I believe it was, who started writing some episodes,

1372
01:34:11,540 --> 01:34:15,340
but he stopped after maybe three episodes.

1373
01:34:15,340 --> 01:34:16,300
Two things had happened.

1374
01:34:16,300 --> 01:34:19,220
One, it became a little bit...

1375
01:34:20,900 --> 01:34:22,460
It was based on a true story

1376
01:34:22,460 --> 01:34:24,740
as opposed to an actual true story.

1377
01:34:24,740 --> 01:34:28,180
They came up with things that wanted to generate interest

1378
01:34:28,180 --> 01:34:31,420
like having females on runs or recovering a load

1379
01:34:31,420 --> 01:34:33,140
that had a large amount of money in it.

1380
01:34:33,140 --> 01:34:35,260
Things like that, we didn't do any of that stuff.

1381
01:34:35,260 --> 01:34:38,020
Yeah, well, we're trying to expand the storyline

1382
01:34:38,020 --> 01:34:41,900
and we wanna broaden the audience, so to speak,

1383
01:34:41,900 --> 01:34:44,020
and we weren't really happy with it.

1384
01:34:44,020 --> 01:34:47,900
So after he quit writing, me and Ed talked about

1385
01:34:47,900 --> 01:34:49,380
just putting it into a book.

1386
01:34:50,420 --> 01:34:54,820
And so he had all the mission specs, he had his memoirs,

1387
01:34:54,820 --> 01:34:57,980
I had a journal and we just kinda combined the two together

1388
01:34:57,980 --> 01:35:02,980
and created this timeline where it was actually a product

1389
01:35:03,100 --> 01:35:05,140
that we could actually come up with.

1390
01:35:05,140 --> 01:35:08,300
And the cool thing about it was it really therapeutic for us

1391
01:35:08,300 --> 01:35:09,900
because we were talking to each other

1392
01:35:09,900 --> 01:35:12,500
and we were discussing the admissions

1393
01:35:12,500 --> 01:35:15,180
and going through some emotions.

1394
01:35:15,180 --> 01:35:16,420
And then we had the incident

1395
01:35:16,420 --> 01:35:19,500
where Sean Blad had committed suicide.

1396
01:35:19,500 --> 01:35:21,940
And so then we kinda backtracked, figured out,

1397
01:35:21,940 --> 01:35:24,220
how are we gonna fit this into the story

1398
01:35:24,220 --> 01:35:27,740
and give him the credit that was due

1399
01:35:27,740 --> 01:35:29,260
because he was obviously suffering

1400
01:35:29,260 --> 01:35:31,340
through a lot of stuff as well.

1401
01:35:31,340 --> 01:35:34,260
And we have a little group that we keep in touch with

1402
01:35:34,260 --> 01:35:39,260
on Facebook where everybody can rehash memories

1403
01:35:39,300 --> 01:35:43,100
and talk about stuff and post pictures and whatnot.

1404
01:35:43,100 --> 01:35:48,100
And we celebrate birthdays and eventually we lost Sean

1405
01:35:48,100 --> 01:35:53,100
and then Nick and then I was thinking Opie.

1406
01:35:59,740 --> 01:36:00,580
Yeah.

1407
01:36:00,580 --> 01:36:01,420
Yeah.

1408
01:36:01,420 --> 01:36:04,460
We met up in Dallas, him and I went to Dallas

1409
01:36:04,460 --> 01:36:05,620
and we were talking about the book.

1410
01:36:05,620 --> 01:36:08,140
We were still in the editorial phase

1411
01:36:08,140 --> 01:36:10,060
and he came down because he was driving truck

1412
01:36:10,060 --> 01:36:12,340
and then it was like six months later,

1413
01:36:12,340 --> 01:36:13,780
we found out he had a heart attack

1414
01:36:13,780 --> 01:36:16,100
and he was only 44 years old.

1415
01:36:16,100 --> 01:36:21,100
And so it was just kinda weird

1416
01:36:21,460 --> 01:36:22,780
cause you know these guys

1417
01:36:22,780 --> 01:36:26,740
and then Greg Swanson Proxima passed away.

1418
01:36:28,340 --> 01:36:33,300
So we stay in touch and we deal with it as it comes along.

1419
01:36:33,300 --> 01:36:36,020
But I think writing the book probably was the biggest benefit

1420
01:36:36,020 --> 01:36:37,460
for both of us.

1421
01:36:37,460 --> 01:36:39,820
Cause we had our own issues and whatnot.

1422
01:36:41,820 --> 01:36:44,820
But definitely what we learned is talking about it,

1423
01:36:44,820 --> 01:36:47,420
writing about it is the way to go.

1424
01:36:47,420 --> 01:36:50,420
You wanna do something constructive, put it down on paper.

1425
01:36:52,380 --> 01:36:55,380
Even if it doesn't materialize, it's helpful.

1426
01:36:57,060 --> 01:36:57,900
Absolutely.

1427
01:36:57,900 --> 01:36:59,780
Well, Ed, back to you.

1428
01:36:59,780 --> 01:37:01,140
What made you transition out

1429
01:37:01,140 --> 01:37:03,980
and then let's walk through your emotional journey.

1430
01:37:03,980 --> 01:37:08,740
May 2011, Team One, Bedford's team took a bad hit.

1431
01:37:08,740 --> 01:37:11,820
Their lead gun truck ran over a culvert

1432
01:37:11,820 --> 01:37:13,540
that was packed with explosives

1433
01:37:13,540 --> 01:37:16,020
and definitely wasn't amateur hour

1434
01:37:16,020 --> 01:37:18,380
cause the OP when they figured it out

1435
01:37:18,380 --> 01:37:21,500
was about 300 meters away.

1436
01:37:21,500 --> 01:37:25,020
And for them, they were probably running

1437
01:37:25,020 --> 01:37:26,820
at about 70 miles an hour.

1438
01:37:26,820 --> 01:37:28,460
So for them to time it like that,

1439
01:37:28,460 --> 01:37:29,660
saying, yep, yep, yep.

1440
01:37:29,660 --> 01:37:33,500
And now boom, just hit that lead truck just like that.

1441
01:37:33,500 --> 01:37:35,420
Boom, it flipped the truck upside down,

1442
01:37:36,460 --> 01:37:39,940
pinned the driver underneath the truck.

1443
01:37:39,940 --> 01:37:42,740
Everybody else was killed.

1444
01:37:44,300 --> 01:37:45,860
Yeah, five guys.

1445
01:37:45,860 --> 01:37:48,100
Yeah, five guys, we lost five on that one.

1446
01:37:48,980 --> 01:37:51,580
Bedford had to stay there just to make sure

1447
01:37:52,540 --> 01:37:55,380
the driver, Ben, was recovered.

1448
01:37:55,380 --> 01:37:57,180
He wasn't gonna leave him.

1449
01:37:57,180 --> 01:38:01,380
His vehicle was jacked up because they ran into the crater.

1450
01:38:01,380 --> 01:38:04,540
So that only left the trail vehicle, the docks vehicle.

1451
01:38:04,540 --> 01:38:07,180
So they loaded all the casualties into there

1452
01:38:07,180 --> 01:38:09,380
and drove back to Gosney.

1453
01:38:09,380 --> 01:38:14,380
And they ended up losing everybody.

1454
01:38:17,260 --> 01:38:21,260
And it took most of the day to get the QRF out to them.

1455
01:38:23,700 --> 01:38:26,620
We found out later on that the QRF out of Gosney

1456
01:38:26,620 --> 01:38:28,700
was pretty damn busy that day.

1457
01:38:28,700 --> 01:38:30,620
And once again, you're a civilian contract,

1458
01:38:30,620 --> 01:38:31,660
you make the big bucks,

1459
01:38:31,660 --> 01:38:34,980
but you're not a priority for the military

1460
01:38:34,980 --> 01:38:37,500
unless it's an actual DOD contract

1461
01:38:37,500 --> 01:38:39,300
and you're supporting that mission.

1462
01:38:41,540 --> 01:38:44,700
Yeah, but I remember we got all the bodies back.

1463
01:38:44,700 --> 01:38:48,340
The Afghans, we got back to their families.

1464
01:38:49,700 --> 01:38:51,140
And there was such a big crowd there.

1465
01:38:51,140 --> 01:38:52,940
I couldn't get in close.

1466
01:38:52,940 --> 01:38:56,220
So I had to have our admin chief, Emredine.

1467
01:38:56,220 --> 01:38:59,940
He got over there and I had him,

1468
01:38:59,940 --> 01:39:02,780
so you gotta look and you have to confirm.

1469
01:39:02,780 --> 01:39:03,860
I mean, this is a young kid.

1470
01:39:03,860 --> 01:39:05,300
I think he was only like 20 years old.

1471
01:39:05,300 --> 01:39:07,260
I was like, you have to confirm

1472
01:39:07,260 --> 01:39:09,460
and tell me who they are because I can't get in close.

1473
01:39:09,460 --> 01:39:10,300
They're not gonna let me,

1474
01:39:10,300 --> 01:39:12,660
the families weren't gonna let me close.

1475
01:39:12,660 --> 01:39:17,580
So he jumped up, hey, it's Timur.

1476
01:39:17,580 --> 01:39:20,100
All right, and then you'd see Timur's family,

1477
01:39:20,100 --> 01:39:24,180
grab him and then, no, it's Mohammed's family.

1478
01:39:24,180 --> 01:39:25,980
No, it's Juarez's family.

1479
01:39:28,420 --> 01:39:31,780
So he confirmed the bodies for me.

1480
01:39:31,780 --> 01:39:35,500
And then I followed the ambulance to the morgue

1481
01:39:35,500 --> 01:39:39,220
out in Kabul for Nes and Ben.

1482
01:39:40,300 --> 01:39:41,700
And that's when it hit me.

1483
01:39:41,700 --> 01:39:44,420
I'm sitting there going through these pockets

1484
01:39:44,420 --> 01:39:47,100
and I'm like, oh fuck, I'm the next one on this slab

1485
01:39:47,100 --> 01:39:49,340
if I don't get out of this shit.

1486
01:39:49,340 --> 01:39:53,260
And yeah, it scared the shit out of me actually,

1487
01:39:53,260 --> 01:39:55,020
but you still had to get it done.

1488
01:39:55,020 --> 01:39:59,300
And I wasn't going on vacation for another month

1489
01:39:59,300 --> 01:40:01,420
because we just lost a team.

1490
01:40:01,420 --> 01:40:03,900
We had to put a headquarters team together

1491
01:40:03,900 --> 01:40:06,060
because it was the lead vehicle that got hit.

1492
01:40:06,060 --> 01:40:08,020
I just made sure I was up in the lead vehicle

1493
01:40:08,020 --> 01:40:10,660
so nobody else could complain and say,

1494
01:40:10,660 --> 01:40:13,140
well, I'm not riding up in the lead vehicle.

1495
01:40:13,140 --> 01:40:15,260
I'm up in the lead vehicle.

1496
01:40:15,260 --> 01:40:19,100
I mean, if you don't wanna ride the lead vehicle, go home.

1497
01:40:19,100 --> 01:40:23,860
And so, but I knew right then and there

1498
01:40:23,860 --> 01:40:26,700
when I was going through those pockets

1499
01:40:26,700 --> 01:40:28,860
that I had to get out because if I, it's not,

1500
01:40:28,860 --> 01:40:32,180
I was gonna be the next one on the slab.

1501
01:40:32,180 --> 01:40:34,300
So went home on vacation.

1502
01:40:36,100 --> 01:40:38,340
I didn't wanna walk away from it just yet

1503
01:40:38,340 --> 01:40:40,380
cause I knew I could still pay off some bills

1504
01:40:40,380 --> 01:40:44,060
and tie off a lot of loose ends if I went to a static site.

1505
01:40:44,060 --> 01:40:47,100
And I'm talking to Scott Brown and he's like,

1506
01:40:47,100 --> 01:40:49,020
yep, we've got something for you.

1507
01:40:49,020 --> 01:40:50,500
And that's when I took over.

1508
01:40:50,500 --> 01:40:53,020
They just fired Tucker and I was going down there

1509
01:40:53,020 --> 01:40:54,260
to replace him.

1510
01:40:54,260 --> 01:40:57,380
So finally they were able to fire his ass

1511
01:40:57,380 --> 01:41:00,020
but he was just such a screw up.

1512
01:41:00,020 --> 01:41:05,020
Yeah, I was in Kandahar on a task order one mission

1513
01:41:05,140 --> 01:41:08,820
and Ed was at Hadrian and we were kind of talking about it.

1514
01:41:08,820 --> 01:41:12,500
And then when I had applied for this job,

1515
01:41:13,500 --> 01:41:16,140
a convoy job, it was with a company called Reed.

1516
01:41:16,140 --> 01:41:18,900
And all I could do, the recruiter was telling me,

1517
01:41:18,900 --> 01:41:21,180
yeah, we just lost five guys.

1518
01:41:21,180 --> 01:41:23,100
It's a very dangerous mission.

1519
01:41:23,100 --> 01:41:25,300
I said, okay, well, I was looking for something.

1520
01:41:25,300 --> 01:41:29,980
And I, so I took it and I went from Kandahar

1521
01:41:29,980 --> 01:41:32,780
to Dubai, got my work visa.

1522
01:41:32,780 --> 01:41:36,100
Five days later, I was in Kabul

1523
01:41:36,100 --> 01:41:41,020
when Vince Colon picked me up from the airport

1524
01:41:41,020 --> 01:41:42,180
and he was working for Reed

1525
01:41:42,180 --> 01:41:44,660
and they took me over to the compound and there it was, man.

1526
01:41:44,660 --> 01:41:49,460
My old job from SOC was taken over on an acquisition

1527
01:41:49,460 --> 01:41:52,500
by Reed and so I was working a new contract

1528
01:41:52,500 --> 01:41:54,460
but some of the same guys were there.

1529
01:41:54,460 --> 01:41:56,420
Alex was still there.

1530
01:41:56,420 --> 01:41:58,560
Michael was there, Domingue was there.

1531
01:41:58,560 --> 01:42:01,680
And the trucks were black instead of white.

1532
01:42:01,680 --> 01:42:03,280
And they had painted them black

1533
01:42:03,280 --> 01:42:05,040
so they could run night missions and whatnot.

1534
01:42:05,040 --> 01:42:07,320
So I kind of felt like it was at home

1535
01:42:07,320 --> 01:42:08,360
and I was really happy.

1536
01:42:08,360 --> 01:42:11,240
But then I found out that one of my friends,

1537
01:42:11,240 --> 01:42:14,040
Ness was killed on that mission.

1538
01:42:14,040 --> 01:42:15,600
And that's when it hit me.

1539
01:42:15,600 --> 01:42:17,360
I was just going, damn,

1540
01:42:17,360 --> 01:42:21,280
because I didn't know that Ness had been killed.

1541
01:42:21,280 --> 01:42:24,200
And so that was the job that I actually talked to.

1542
01:42:24,200 --> 01:42:28,040
And then when Ed came back from Hadrian on his way out,

1543
01:42:28,040 --> 01:42:29,480
they stopped off at the compound.

1544
01:42:29,480 --> 01:42:32,000
And that's, if you see the picture on the back of the book,

1545
01:42:32,000 --> 01:42:33,840
that's the picture that him and I took.

1546
01:42:33,840 --> 01:42:36,040
That's the last time we were together there.

1547
01:42:37,160 --> 01:42:38,480
Beautiful.

1548
01:42:38,480 --> 01:42:40,240
What about emotionally?

1549
01:42:40,240 --> 01:42:42,120
What were your highs and lows?

1550
01:42:42,120 --> 01:42:43,360
Oh, like I said, the lows,

1551
01:42:43,360 --> 01:42:45,400
anytime you took a bad hit, I mean, you're like,

1552
01:42:45,400 --> 01:42:48,440
God damn, man, because you get that sinking feeling

1553
01:42:48,440 --> 01:42:50,480
in your stomach and you're like,

1554
01:42:50,480 --> 01:42:53,080
I mean, you're glad you came out on the other side,

1555
01:42:53,080 --> 01:42:54,680
but man, you just lost guys.

1556
01:42:54,680 --> 01:42:58,720
You saw guys, saw you guys get hit.

1557
01:42:58,720 --> 01:43:00,800
Yeah, it takes a toll on you.

1558
01:43:00,800 --> 01:43:02,480
You don't realize it at the time though,

1559
01:43:02,480 --> 01:43:05,480
because you're around everybody else with the same mindset.

1560
01:43:07,440 --> 01:43:11,560
So, wasn't until I, yeah,

1561
01:43:12,600 --> 01:43:14,960
wasn't until like a couple of years after I came home,

1562
01:43:14,960 --> 01:43:17,280
and I was just like, I went through a couple,

1563
01:43:17,280 --> 01:43:18,680
I was like, God damn, man.

1564
01:43:19,640 --> 01:43:22,680
I think that's when I had to refight the demons and stuff

1565
01:43:22,680 --> 01:43:25,680
for about a couple, for a while.

1566
01:43:25,680 --> 01:43:28,360
But I think what put it all,

1567
01:43:29,880 --> 01:43:34,120
what was most therapeutic for me was January 2017,

1568
01:43:34,120 --> 01:43:36,880
I made that, I'd said to myself, this is the year,

1569
01:43:36,880 --> 01:43:38,640
we're gonna get a book written.

1570
01:43:38,640 --> 01:43:43,040
And that's when I reached out to Al and we got the,

1571
01:43:43,040 --> 01:43:44,400
we started putting everything together

1572
01:43:44,400 --> 01:43:46,440
and it was just very helpful.

1573
01:43:47,920 --> 01:43:51,400
It was therapeutic just to put pen to paper.

1574
01:43:51,400 --> 01:43:55,880
And, of course it took us five years

1575
01:43:55,880 --> 01:43:57,600
to get the book published because of,

1576
01:43:58,640 --> 01:44:01,600
you got a couple of cavemen with crayons writing books.

1577
01:44:04,080 --> 01:44:09,080
But, yeah, definitely, the highs and lows,

1578
01:44:10,440 --> 01:44:12,480
you know, like you get hit,

1579
01:44:12,480 --> 01:44:14,000
you're coming out on the other side

1580
01:44:14,000 --> 01:44:16,600
and you're still standing, yeah, that is a high.

1581
01:44:16,600 --> 01:44:18,080
But then the lows are like,

1582
01:44:18,080 --> 01:44:21,440
when your friends are getting killed and getting hurt,

1583
01:44:21,440 --> 01:44:23,400
you're like, God damn, man,

1584
01:44:23,400 --> 01:44:24,920
what the hell am I doing wrong?

1585
01:44:24,920 --> 01:44:26,400
Is it me?

1586
01:44:26,400 --> 01:44:29,600
But sometimes it's just, that's the nature of war.

1587
01:44:29,600 --> 01:44:33,280
I mean, shit, we had bounties on our, we were targets,

1588
01:44:33,280 --> 01:44:34,560
we knew we were targets,

1589
01:44:34,560 --> 01:44:37,840
and we said, you know, we're gonna get this job done.

1590
01:44:40,520 --> 01:44:41,360
Yeah.

1591
01:44:42,480 --> 01:44:46,560
I think one of the things that we talked about was,

1592
01:44:46,560 --> 01:44:48,560
a lot of the guys that had been through some of the same

1593
01:44:48,560 --> 01:44:51,440
things that we did, they always second guess themselves,

1594
01:44:51,440 --> 01:44:55,280
like, do I have this psychological resilience

1595
01:44:55,280 --> 01:44:59,200
that makes me immune to this type of suffering?

1596
01:44:59,200 --> 01:45:01,120
And so then you start to wonder

1597
01:45:01,120 --> 01:45:04,200
if there's something wrong with you because you're not,

1598
01:45:04,200 --> 01:45:06,080
you know, you're not having these flashbacks,

1599
01:45:06,080 --> 01:45:08,240
you're not looking into a bottle,

1600
01:45:08,240 --> 01:45:10,400
you're not doing stuff

1601
01:45:10,400 --> 01:45:12,400
that other people have done in the past.

1602
01:45:14,080 --> 01:45:16,360
And so then you start to question your own,

1603
01:45:16,360 --> 01:45:18,120
your own mental fortitude,

1604
01:45:18,120 --> 01:45:22,000
as opposed to what's really happening.

1605
01:45:22,000 --> 01:45:24,160
You know, what's the truth about what you're dealing with?

1606
01:45:24,160 --> 01:45:25,440
I didn't have nightmares.

1607
01:45:25,440 --> 01:45:30,440
I had, I had like the TTPs for the longest time.

1608
01:45:31,120 --> 01:45:32,600
You know, if I'm driving down the road

1609
01:45:32,600 --> 01:45:34,280
and I saw a dead animal or something like that,

1610
01:45:34,280 --> 01:45:35,840
I'd kind of skirt to the left.

1611
01:45:35,840 --> 01:45:37,960
And you know, my wife's going, what are you doing?

1612
01:45:37,960 --> 01:45:40,440
Or I would pull into a gas station

1613
01:45:40,440 --> 01:45:42,720
and I'm checking everybody out front and back.

1614
01:45:42,720 --> 01:45:44,840
Cause I, you know, we're used to dominating

1615
01:45:44,840 --> 01:45:47,440
these fuel stations when we're fueling up.

1616
01:45:47,440 --> 01:45:49,960
And it was just kind of weird how that,

1617
01:45:49,960 --> 01:45:53,120
that stuff kind of stuck with you when you got back home

1618
01:45:53,120 --> 01:45:55,720
and people were going, they start to think,

1619
01:45:55,720 --> 01:45:56,760
what's going on?

1620
01:45:56,760 --> 01:45:57,960
What's the matter with you?

1621
01:45:57,960 --> 01:45:58,840
Whatever the case may be.

1622
01:45:58,840 --> 01:46:02,480
But it was really just a question of good habits

1623
01:46:02,480 --> 01:46:06,080
that being transitioned over into a civilian side,

1624
01:46:06,080 --> 01:46:08,000
they kind of carried over, which, you know,

1625
01:46:08,000 --> 01:46:10,080
I look back at it and I kind of laugh about it.

1626
01:46:10,080 --> 01:46:11,700
But, you know,

1627
01:46:11,700 --> 01:46:15,020
we had to deal with some family members.

1628
01:46:15,020 --> 01:46:19,540
So, you know, when Sean, when Sean, I had killed himself,

1629
01:46:19,540 --> 01:46:21,300
you know, his mom was really curious

1630
01:46:21,300 --> 01:46:23,020
about what was going on.

1631
01:46:23,020 --> 01:46:25,220
And, you know, we wanted to honor him

1632
01:46:25,220 --> 01:46:29,940
in a way that was respectful.

1633
01:46:29,940 --> 01:46:33,340
And so we created that chapter for Fairwall Docs

1634
01:46:33,340 --> 01:46:36,780
cause all these guys were docs and whatnot.

1635
01:46:36,780 --> 01:46:41,220
And I think that a little bit more pressure

1636
01:46:41,220 --> 01:46:45,140
was kind of put on them because they're faced with the,

1637
01:46:45,140 --> 01:46:46,540
you know, the trauma of the event.

1638
01:46:46,540 --> 01:46:49,820
And then they have to, you know, go into rescue mode

1639
01:46:49,820 --> 01:46:51,220
and try to save these guys.

1640
01:46:51,220 --> 01:46:52,900
And then they ended up losing these guys.

1641
01:46:52,900 --> 01:46:56,260
And, you know, I think Clint quit after that hit in Gosney.

1642
01:46:57,220 --> 01:47:00,140
He just, he couldn't handle it.

1643
01:47:00,140 --> 01:47:02,000
And we tried to stay in touch with him,

1644
01:47:02,000 --> 01:47:03,940
but he's just off grid, you know?

1645
01:47:03,940 --> 01:47:06,260
So there's a lot of things that we think about.

1646
01:47:06,260 --> 01:47:11,260
And Arnie, when they evacuated Afghanistan,

1647
01:47:13,460 --> 01:47:15,620
he was one of the guys that was kind of left behind,

1648
01:47:15,620 --> 01:47:18,100
but you know, he's an SAS guy,

1649
01:47:18,100 --> 01:47:20,740
but you know, he can take care of himself.

1650
01:47:20,740 --> 01:47:23,860
And it wasn't a matter of time before he went back in

1651
01:47:23,860 --> 01:47:25,860
and just got another job contracting.

1652
01:47:25,860 --> 01:47:28,380
And that was his way for getting out of the country.

1653
01:47:28,380 --> 01:47:30,020
So we really didn't have to worry about that.

1654
01:47:30,020 --> 01:47:32,220
But, you know, there's always something

1655
01:47:32,220 --> 01:47:33,300
in the back of your mind.

1656
01:47:33,300 --> 01:47:35,260
And it's not like we're trying to suppress it.

1657
01:47:35,260 --> 01:47:38,420
It just doesn't surface, you know?

1658
01:47:39,420 --> 01:47:42,420
Ed, you made the comment about, you know,

1659
01:47:42,420 --> 01:47:44,220
the people around you going through the same thing.

1660
01:47:44,220 --> 01:47:45,940
That's what I talked about in the fire service.

1661
01:47:45,940 --> 01:47:49,140
You know, we're horrible barometers at how we're doing

1662
01:47:49,140 --> 01:47:52,300
because we're all in the same, you know, meat grinder together.

1663
01:47:52,300 --> 01:47:53,940
So it's amazing how important-

1664
01:47:53,940 --> 01:47:54,780
You're all at the same level.

1665
01:47:54,780 --> 01:47:56,620
So everything looks normal.

1666
01:47:56,620 --> 01:47:57,460
Exactly.

1667
01:47:57,460 --> 01:47:58,300
It looks normal.

1668
01:47:58,300 --> 01:47:59,700
It's like, oh yeah, I'm fine.

1669
01:47:59,700 --> 01:48:01,500
If he's fine, I'm fine.

1670
01:48:01,500 --> 01:48:03,900
But now you take those same, me and that other guy,

1671
01:48:03,900 --> 01:48:06,660
you take us and put us in, people will be like,

1672
01:48:06,660 --> 01:48:10,060
God damn, man, you guys are, what's going on here?

1673
01:48:10,060 --> 01:48:11,220
So- Exactly.

1674
01:48:11,220 --> 01:48:12,060
Yeah.

1675
01:48:13,580 --> 01:48:14,660
Yeah.

1676
01:48:14,660 --> 01:48:15,500
Jesus.

1677
01:48:16,460 --> 01:48:17,300
Yeah.

1678
01:48:17,300 --> 01:48:18,540
We are horrible barometers.

1679
01:48:18,540 --> 01:48:22,060
We're our own worst self-evaluators.

1680
01:48:22,060 --> 01:48:24,700
And, but we have to be our own, yeah.

1681
01:48:24,700 --> 01:48:27,740
And you need that outside,

1682
01:48:27,740 --> 01:48:30,220
you need those outside eyes looking in to say,

1683
01:48:30,220 --> 01:48:33,500
hey, you guys need, let's take a break here.

1684
01:48:33,500 --> 01:48:35,260
Let's go ahead and talk about this.

1685
01:48:36,340 --> 01:48:37,700
You know, since sometimes that's all it is,

1686
01:48:37,700 --> 01:48:41,220
is talking and putting pen to paper and boom, you know,

1687
01:48:41,220 --> 01:48:44,340
a lot of those issues and feelings

1688
01:48:44,340 --> 01:48:46,220
will resolve themselves.

1689
01:48:46,220 --> 01:48:48,060
I don't think they'll ever go away,

1690
01:48:48,980 --> 01:48:52,580
but it'll resolve itself to a point

1691
01:48:52,580 --> 01:48:55,780
where you can actually develop some tools,

1692
01:48:55,780 --> 01:48:58,260
find some tools to deal with it a lot better.

1693
01:48:58,260 --> 01:49:00,260
So for me, it's working out.

1694
01:49:00,260 --> 01:49:03,700
I mean, I love hitting the gym and, you know,

1695
01:49:03,700 --> 01:49:07,700
that 30 to 60 minutes of endorphin release, you know,

1696
01:49:07,700 --> 01:49:10,060
I think it just helps a lot.

1697
01:49:10,060 --> 01:49:10,900
So-

1698
01:49:11,860 --> 01:49:12,940
Alan, what about you?

1699
01:49:12,940 --> 01:49:14,380
What other tools apart from writing

1700
01:49:14,380 --> 01:49:15,980
have you found to be cathartic?

1701
01:49:17,260 --> 01:49:19,700
Well, just staying busy, you know,

1702
01:49:19,700 --> 01:49:22,580
and the fire service is so dynamic.

1703
01:49:22,580 --> 01:49:24,260
It changes all the time.

1704
01:49:24,260 --> 01:49:27,900
You know, we, I work in a extremely

1705
01:49:27,900 --> 01:49:30,900
violent area of town.

1706
01:49:32,380 --> 01:49:33,380
So I'm kind of used to it.

1707
01:49:33,380 --> 01:49:36,420
I think I've become acclimated in some respects.

1708
01:49:36,420 --> 01:49:39,140
You know, I always tell people 50% of the people

1709
01:49:39,140 --> 01:49:40,940
that I save are criminals, you know,

1710
01:49:42,500 --> 01:49:45,020
but there are so many things to do.

1711
01:49:45,020 --> 01:49:48,900
There's all, you know, just cause the call's over,

1712
01:49:48,900 --> 01:49:51,180
we're, you know, we're prepping trucks,

1713
01:49:51,180 --> 01:49:53,420
we're fixing things, we're cleaning up,

1714
01:49:53,420 --> 01:49:56,140
we're, you know, we're constantly moving around.

1715
01:49:56,140 --> 01:49:58,380
We're staying busy all the time.

1716
01:49:58,380 --> 01:50:02,340
So there's really never, never any downtime at work.

1717
01:50:02,340 --> 01:50:05,100
I think the worst thing that's happened with me

1718
01:50:05,100 --> 01:50:07,740
is the disconnect between me and my own family.

1719
01:50:07,740 --> 01:50:11,380
Cause I've spent most of my time being away.

1720
01:50:11,380 --> 01:50:15,220
My wife was basically the disciplinarian of the family.

1721
01:50:15,220 --> 01:50:17,740
And when I came home, if like my son got out of hand

1722
01:50:17,740 --> 01:50:21,180
and I said something to him, he just disregarded it.

1723
01:50:21,180 --> 01:50:24,220
I think the problem with me and him was that I was his friend

1724
01:50:24,220 --> 01:50:26,020
as opposed to his father.

1725
01:50:26,020 --> 01:50:30,420
And so he would look to his mother for advice and whatnot.

1726
01:50:30,420 --> 01:50:33,220
So that kind of, that bothered me a little bit.

1727
01:50:33,220 --> 01:50:37,340
And I think that they probably understood,

1728
01:50:37,340 --> 01:50:39,500
but now that I'm back, of course,

1729
01:50:39,500 --> 01:50:40,900
all my kids are grown now,

1730
01:50:40,900 --> 01:50:42,300
they have kids of their own and whatnot.

1731
01:50:42,300 --> 01:50:44,380
So I'm into grandparent mode.

1732
01:50:44,380 --> 01:50:46,420
So that really helps quite a bit.

1733
01:50:46,420 --> 01:50:51,140
And, you know, I don't wanna lose touch with my brothers.

1734
01:50:51,140 --> 01:50:52,060
That's the thing.

1735
01:50:52,060 --> 01:50:56,260
That bond that we made overseas is a lifetime for me.

1736
01:50:56,260 --> 01:50:58,900
And so I cherish that.

1737
01:50:58,900 --> 01:51:01,500
And, you know, me and Ed are the best of friends.

1738
01:51:01,500 --> 01:51:04,580
We're gonna stay connected until the day we die.

1739
01:51:04,580 --> 01:51:09,140
We even have a clause in our contract where our families

1740
01:51:09,140 --> 01:51:11,660
will get whatever royalties from the book sales

1741
01:51:11,660 --> 01:51:12,700
when we're long gone.

1742
01:51:12,700 --> 01:51:15,860
So, you know, we wanna make sure

1743
01:51:15,860 --> 01:51:18,500
that that legacy kind of continues on.

1744
01:51:18,500 --> 01:51:21,100
Brilliant. Well, Ed, for people listening,

1745
01:51:21,100 --> 01:51:23,460
the book is called Postcards Through Hell.

1746
01:51:23,460 --> 01:51:25,180
And it obviously details, you know,

1747
01:51:25,180 --> 01:51:26,900
you just touched on a lot of things

1748
01:51:26,900 --> 01:51:29,340
that are gonna be in this story as people are led through.

1749
01:51:29,340 --> 01:51:31,900
Where are the best places for people to find the book?

1750
01:51:33,060 --> 01:51:33,900
Amazon.

1751
01:51:33,900 --> 01:51:36,540
And you can order it on Amazon.

1752
01:51:36,540 --> 01:51:39,660
It's a print on demand publication.

1753
01:51:39,660 --> 01:51:43,020
So either order it through Amazon or Barnes and Noble.

1754
01:51:44,020 --> 01:51:44,860
Those are the two.

1755
01:51:44,860 --> 01:51:47,860
There's a Kindle version out and we're,

1756
01:51:47,860 --> 01:51:49,780
when our contract expires,

1757
01:51:49,780 --> 01:51:52,700
we're going to work on a audio version.

1758
01:51:52,700 --> 01:51:55,060
We already have a narrator and everybody in mind.

1759
01:51:55,060 --> 01:51:58,500
So we just have to wait until the contract is done

1760
01:51:58,500 --> 01:52:01,420
and we'll go ahead and go with an audio version as well.

1761
01:52:01,420 --> 01:52:02,260
Brilliant.

1762
01:52:02,260 --> 01:52:04,060
Yeah, I wrote my book three years ago

1763
01:52:04,060 --> 01:52:05,300
and I remember researching.

1764
01:52:05,300 --> 01:52:07,500
It's actually good to let it be a print for a while

1765
01:52:07,500 --> 01:52:08,620
because then when you do audio,

1766
01:52:08,620 --> 01:52:10,420
it's almost like a rerelease of the same book.

1767
01:52:10,420 --> 01:52:12,540
So, yeah, that'll be great.

1768
01:52:13,380 --> 01:52:15,540
All right, well, Alan, for you,

1769
01:52:15,540 --> 01:52:20,540
I'm sure people are moved by the journey today

1770
01:52:21,500 --> 01:52:24,060
that both of you guys have been leading us through.

1771
01:52:24,060 --> 01:52:25,660
If people want to connect online,

1772
01:52:25,660 --> 01:52:28,060
where are the best places for you specifically?

1773
01:52:29,060 --> 01:52:32,100
Well, we had a website

1774
01:52:32,980 --> 01:52:34,980
that was actually quite successful for a while,

1775
01:52:34,980 --> 01:52:37,500
but we were told that it needed to be upgraded

1776
01:52:37,500 --> 01:52:39,260
and in that process of upgrading,

1777
01:52:39,260 --> 01:52:41,380
we ended up losing the website.

1778
01:52:41,380 --> 01:52:43,220
And so now we're trying to get it back together

1779
01:52:43,220 --> 01:52:45,980
where it's kind of under construction right now.

1780
01:52:46,940 --> 01:52:50,300
We'll probably have the same domain name,

1781
01:52:50,300 --> 01:52:55,180
but it's in the hands of the web developer now,

1782
01:52:55,180 --> 01:52:57,580
so we're on his clock.

1783
01:52:58,700 --> 01:53:00,340
But in the meantime, LinkedIn

1784
01:53:00,340 --> 01:53:01,660
or any of those best for you, Instagram?

1785
01:53:01,660 --> 01:53:03,500
Oh yeah, LinkedIn, Facebook.

1786
01:53:04,780 --> 01:53:07,140
I think Ed has Instagram.

1787
01:53:07,140 --> 01:53:07,980
Got Instagram.

1788
01:53:07,980 --> 01:53:09,860
And whatnot, so.

1789
01:53:09,860 --> 01:53:13,180
Yeah, we have a group called the Pony Express on Facebook

1790
01:53:13,180 --> 01:53:14,940
that we have two groups.

1791
01:53:14,940 --> 01:53:16,380
One is Pony Express,

1792
01:53:16,380 --> 01:53:20,140
which is dedicated to just the team members only.

1793
01:53:20,140 --> 01:53:21,980
There's about 75 of us.

1794
01:53:21,980 --> 01:53:25,380
And then the Pony Express is where we put information

1795
01:53:25,380 --> 01:53:27,940
about the book and people that want to join the group.

1796
01:53:27,940 --> 01:53:31,940
Of course, we talk about things through that medium as well.

1797
01:53:32,940 --> 01:53:34,740
Brilliant, Ed, anything to add?

1798
01:53:36,940 --> 01:53:39,020
Really, I mean, I think we're going to have to add

1799
01:53:39,020 --> 01:53:42,580
some new development to our Starship loves to talk about.

1800
01:53:42,580 --> 01:53:45,420
Yeah, I mean...

1801
01:53:45,420 --> 01:53:47,740
Yeah, I already have.

1802
01:53:47,740 --> 01:53:49,540
Well, Ed, you guys are leaving,

1803
01:53:49,540 --> 01:53:52,860
we'll maybe get back together of course,

1804
01:53:52,860 --> 01:53:54,740
but that should be very important

1805
01:53:54,740 --> 01:54:00,940
now's a little bit只ен

1806
01:54:02,140 --> 01:54:03,300
to take a longer break here,

1807
01:54:03,300 --> 01:54:04,700
but I think if we keep going,

1808
01:54:04,700 --> 01:54:13,340
with your fight to help you win that fight. So yeah, I mean, but like, but as for contact,

1809
01:54:13,340 --> 01:54:20,060
you know, we're on Facebook, LinkedIn, I'm on Twitter or X now. And then I'll also,

1810
01:54:21,100 --> 01:54:28,940
instant I'm also on Instagram. So if anybody wants to reach out. So

1811
01:54:28,940 --> 01:54:36,380
I want to thank you both so much. I mean, such a story career before your paths even cross,

1812
01:54:36,380 --> 01:54:41,900
which has been really powerful to hear, but I don't think I've ever heard a story of, you know,

1813
01:54:41,900 --> 01:54:47,420
the men protecting the male, you know, that got to our men and women that were, you know,

1814
01:54:47,420 --> 01:54:50,860
wanting that connection with the outside world. And obviously some of the things that were being

1815
01:54:50,860 --> 01:54:57,020
transported, I'm sure were important to the mission as well. But so yeah, so I want to thank you so,

1816
01:54:57,020 --> 01:55:01,020
so much for firstly, writing the book and secondly, being so generous with your time

1817
01:55:01,020 --> 01:55:19,500
and coming on the podcast today. Thanks for having us. I appreciate it. Thanks for having us.