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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing,
and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show actor,
jiu-jitsu practitioner and volunteer firefighter, Johnny Lee Miller.
Now, when I was younger, one of the most powerful films I watched was Trainspotting,
and Johnny was one of the stars of that film.
So you can understand how humbled I was to hear not only his journey through the world of acting,
but also his courageously vulnerable storytelling on his own addiction and recovery.
So we discuss a host of topics, from entering the world of drama at a very young age,
the highs and lows of fame, the tools he used to overcome his own addiction,
the healing power of jiu-jitsu, his call to service in the firefighter uniform, and so much more.
One more thing I want to mention, I don't know what happened, I was traveling when I did this recording,
but somehow clearly I didn't plug in my microphone, so you will hear on my side the audio quality isn't as good as normal.
However, Johnny's is amazing and that's the one that counts.
Now, before we get to this incredibly powerful conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment.
Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating.
Every single five-star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for others to find.
And this is a free library of almost 900 episodes now.
So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories,
so I can get them to every single person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you Johnny Lee Miller. Enjoy.
Johnny, very first thing, I want to say a couple of thank yous.
Firstly, thank you to you for even connecting with me on social media, but also thank you to Bobby Burke,
who I think was a catalyst to this conversation, an amazing actor, a volunteer firefighter for 22 years now.
Obviously, there's some synergy there because you just entered that profession or that volunteer profession yourself.
So thank you to Bobby and I also want to say welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast today.
Thank you very much for having me. I shall try and get over my imposter syndrome.
Don't worry, it's on both sides of the mic, I promise.
Actually, Bobby, so not only do we have all these similarities, but we live in adjoining neighborhoods in Fire Island.
So he's a captain in the Ocean Beach Fire Department and the next town over is my town, Ocean Bay Park.
And that's the department I joined. So I knew about him through my from I'd heard talk of him,
his legendary status in my neighborhood, there's lots of mutual friends.
Well, against imposter syndrome, we did a second one and he was like, I don't think I've got anything worth listening to to say, you know,
and I'm like, trust me, you're an incredible human being, you know, parallel to your Hollywood career,
you volunteered for 22 years, you know, doing what we do, a lot of people listening and get paid to do.
So, yeah, I think that imposter syndrome, that humility, I think, you know, more often than not, it's coming from a good place.
Yeah, OK.
All right. Well, very first question, where on planet Earth are we finding you this afternoon?
I'm in New York City in Brooklyn, in my flat.
Beautiful. Well, people listening can probably tell that's not where you were born and bred.
So let's start at the very beginning of your timeline.
Tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings?
OK, my I was born in Kingston upon Thames, which is a suburb of London in the United Kingdom.
And I was the I am one of two children to Alan and Anne, and they were both they both worked in television and stage management.
So my dad, when I was born, was working at the BBC.
He worked there for a very long time, you know, over 20 years in production management, like basically the television equivalent of a stage manager.
And my mother, that's where they had met.
She did a similar job, but she left when my sister was born.
So there's me and my sister, my older sister.
And we grew up sort of very sort of lower middle class in in Nice Park, Kingston, which is a great place to grow up because you're really close to London.
If you want to go there on a train real quick, but you've got like Richmond Park nearby.
So you've got this sort of it's almost like the countryside.
Richmond Park is a beautiful place to to grow up.
And yeah, so I also have like a bunch.
I have two older half sisters from my dad's previous marriage, and we saw them a lot growing up as well.
So before we get to the BBC, there's some things I want to ask you, because I know you had a quite a unique lens as far as a child growing up with parents in that arena that we all revered.
Talk to me about the role that your grandfather played, because as a stunt man myself, the absolute pinnacle of, you know, films when it comes to a young English boy that dreams of becoming a stuntman is the James Bond series.
So tell me about your granddad and what he did.
Yeah, my granddad, Bernard Lee, was my this is my my mom's dad, my maternal grandfather.
He yeah, so he was in the James Bond movies, first 11 and.
A really great larger than life character, I can still sort of hear his voice and, you know, he was a lovely man.
He died when I was still quite young, I think I was eight, but I remember being very upset.
So I never really got any we never went to any, you know, bond sets or anything like that.
And but but but the one thing that is he was quite he was very prolific actor and he had a very interesting life.
He served in World War Two in the Royal Sussex Division, Royal Sussex Regiment.
I think that's the right way to say it was promoted to captain through because they kept losing all their captains.
I don't know if he if he was commissioned. I don't I don't imagine he was, but people got promoted.
Quite a lot of battlefield promotions in World War Two. So battlefield commissions. So after that, he just sort of he got into acting.
And I think he had been a music hall kind of guy before the war, actually was in a company with a man called Arthur Askey.
And you might know who that is. That might be where he met my grandmother.
And then so after he started doing it like so, you know, grandpa was in like the third man and and made over 100 movies.
And my mom would tell stories about growing up in Hounslow, West, West, West London and coming home and, you know,
Robert Mitchum sitting there having a drink with with with my granddad and then insisting on going out and playing rounders with my my my mom and all her school friends and stuff.
So there was this sort of, you know, he lived that kind of life where he was a very down to earth, working class kind of guy, my granddad.
But he mixed in these circles of like minded people who kind of liked having fun at work.
So there was that that sort of, you know, having that connection to the movies was was pretty cool growing up.
But it was it didn't really it just sort of reinforced that kind of showbiz sort of vibe in the family. Like everyone had an opinion on on different things you would watch or how things were done or how things were made,
particularly having stage manager type parents because they were behind the scenes making stuff.
It's amazing how many people of his generation were World War Two veterans. So when you watch some of them play in the tough guy role, you're like, it seems like super believable.
And then you discover, yeah, like, you know, James Cagney or something. Look at that, right.
There's a guy from It's a Wonderful Life, James. Jimmy Stewart. Jimmy Stewart. Thank you. Yeah.
He was all these these actors that we revered were veterans and ironically, a lot of the ones that portrayed the kind of heroes that when we were growing up, John Wayne, Schwarzenegger, Stallone, none of them actually did.
So I always look back and look and say we were kind of raised on a facade, two dimensional version of masculinity, which was fun to watch when you were a teenager.
But then these young boys grow into soldiers and firefighters and police officers. And it's actually detrimental.
This stoic boys don't cry, you know, rub some dirt in it stuff because these people were portraying it were never actually serving, never actually in combat.
But if you look at the Jimmy Stewart's and those were the real man, they never portrayed that invincible RoboCop type male lead.
No, and I think that's why they were such great actors as well. They had an authenticity because they didn't because they were that they didn't have to.
You know, now you get the kind of the method guys or, you know, if you look at he, you know, had them all running around with guns and learning how to do this to get that because you have to, you know, you can't just go off to war in order to be convincing in a role.
But I think, you know, Steve McQueen is another great example of that.
He was a Marine and had this this vulnerability to him, I think, you know, people remember the king of cool and all that.
But the wonderful thing about about his performances, I think, is there's a there's kind of a lightness of touch and a vulnerability to it.
Which you know, because you don't have to over project your masculinity because it's all the masculinity. I shouldn't really say that you don't have to over project your confidence because it's there.
You know what I mean? Yeah, well, the masculinity is the word because that was what we were told that was.
Yeah, non toxic masculinity. I mean, you know, you know what I mean?
Yeah, absolutely. Now, with that being said, so fast forward now, you are you're kind of able to get backstage at the BBC sometimes.
I talk with with, you know, real kind of fondness about children's television when we were growing up.
So top of the pops, you know, news, John Craver's Newsround, Blue Peter.
There was a lot of really positive television for kids.
You know, I mean, really, really was, you know, there's people in another country and they're starving.
Let's do jumble sales. That's, you know, do do races and walks and it's raise money and help people is really community based and altruistic.
What was it like actually being in the middle of that, being in the BBC and seeing some of these shows firsthand?
I mean, I was very young, so you're kind of just starstruck and they would have so they would have these.
They have these little areas called galleries and it's a gallery up in the studio roof.
And it's a little windowed viewing area. So it's up high, very high in the top corner of these studios.
You could go into the galleries and whichever studio it was had its own gallery and look at what the work that was being done.
I remember being up there, I remember watching, you know, my Blue Peter heroes rehearsing like Leslie Judd, you know, and these these people that you just kind of worshipped.
And you're like, there they are, you know, practicing making something out of the fairy liquid bottle.
And then I remember watching top of the pops rehearsals.
They're watching because before the days of pop videos, you had the dancers would when they couldn't get the star to come to the show, they would have dancers instead of playing their pop video.
Then I think the dance, what are they called? They were called Lengson Co or Pan's and Pan's people like the dance troupe.
I remember watching them rehearsing to a Johnny Mathis song. I'm so old.
So yeah, it was it was it was like an incredible like, you know, you felt like, you know, you felt you felt special to be an insider and then you but then you'd also be walking down the corridors of television center.
And you'd go to the outside scene, and you'd walk past half a Dalek mind blowing, you know, but but you know, you start to you start to sort of, you know, you get that little thing like, yeah, yeah, I'm on, you know, I know how it's made.
I'm on the inside kind of, you know, when you're a kid, you like to feel like you're part of the team.
We have this whole legacy, you know, behind you. Were you dreaming of acting when you were young, or was there something else you were thinking about as well?
I don't know about dreaming about I think it was.
I think it was I was quite performative, believe it or not, like, as a little kid, I used to make jokes a lot and I used to like making my school friends laugh.
I used to make that a lot. And I think I was just, I mean, it's an interesting like looking back, it's always interesting because, you know, things were not always as, as, as happy at home, as they appeared to be.
And there's, I find it a very interesting question about people who want to be, you know, in in show business, and my son actually is just not interested at all.
And he sort of kind of was a little bit and then he but he's not maybe he secretly is but I see that as kind of a healthy thing.
Because he doesn't need. He's not looking for attention from other places.
And I find that interesting. I don't know, you know, I'm not saying that it's like, it's sort of an interesting question to me and I don't have the answers or anything and I'm not saying that everybody that gets into show business is desperate show off.
But there's something to needing to be heard.
So anyway, so I was doing that but it was like, and then I was, you know, and I felt you feel connected because your parents always talking about the business or this or that, you know, dad's bringing home scripts of top of the pops believe it or not they have scripts they had all the lyrics
and the songs written out on it and then what the presenter would say and blah blah blah. And so you feel like this but and you know, you know that it's a sort of a family tradition not only was my grandfather and actor but his father was a musical performer.
So you kind of feel like, I guess it's entitlement right, but in the same way that you might be a line of police officers or you might be a line of doctors from generation to generation those things happen.
But then I remember doing like school plays and like the little class assemblies or whatever, and you do it and I would do a good job and then all your classmates are like, that was great man was so funny it was good.
And the minute as a child you get encouragement and your peers, especially like give you a pat on the back, then you're like, oh, maybe maybe this is something
you know maybe that's something fun and then and then you know if you have fun doing something and you sort of doing it as a hobby and it can turn into a job maybe that's that's it just sort of happens.
So many people in uniform men and women in uniform struggle. And when that discussion is brought up. They're normally told well it's what you saw in Fallujah or it's you know it was the Grenfell fire, you know it was it was something current day when you were in uniform.
And as I've become more educated, you know from listening to so many people whether it's lived experience or the clinical side. I started realizing that the period of time before we ever put the uniform on is so important to acknowledge and look into if you're going to talk
about the holistic human being and their mental health and or addiction journey.
And when you look back now with this wiser lens that you have at that childhood that you touched that you touched, you know on maybe if not completely idyllic none of us I did it to be honest but what would you kind of look at as some of the challenges for that young boy then
growing up in your family dynamic.
Well, what I discovered through therapy,
which just I can't recommend enough man, we can get into that later but that's like,
nothing was talked about.
Now and that might sound a little
soft and just get on with it but communication is so huge and there was some pretty major things going down in my household
to do with other members of my family are health wise.
And, you know,
so I don't really, I can't really go into that, but nothing was ever talked about. And then my parents were not good together, they were not getting on and there was a lot of, you know, there was a lot of tension and a lot of, you know, arguing and
and I had vibes for years and years and years and years, and it affected me and my sister very, very poorly.
What yeah, what.
So, you know, it can't help but have an effect on how you interpret the rest of the world right and and how you carry on through and, you know, personally I did, I ended up quite, quite, you know, emotionally stunted because of that.
And I was really not developing in the ways that I think help now I'd kind of know that you know I'm more healthy to do so it's very important to me with my, with my son to communication is top of the list.
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I think it's, it's, I could probably count on a couple of hands a number of people to come on the show that haven't had elements that were, you know, basically detrimental in their early years that they probably have to deal with
later on, this is a human experience. And so whether it's acting or musicians or police officers or soldiers or firefighters.
You know, this is this is the thing is that when you look back now, a lot of people were going through the same kind of things and, you know, you look at the Maslow's hierarchy of needs security and some of these other things.
If a child doesn't feel like you said loved communicated with, you know, secure, whether it's around addiction whether it's adoption or, you know, this the middle child that feels on love whatever it is that the traumas are all different but the perception is the same
and if it's left on addressed, it might be, you know, leaving a military unit or it might be becoming a celebrity it might be a number of things that kind of finally have this draw the broke the camel's back and I think this is so important for us now better late than never to have these conversations to help other people of our age but also to let, as you said, the generation beneath us and my son is the same.
I talked to him about everything so that hopefully they can they can learn from our mistakes and realize that as I touched on earlier, a man is not this two dimensional robot a man is strong when he needs to be and kind and compassionate and vulnerable at other times too.
Yeah, I was a very timid.
I was I was I was friendly and I was I was out there and I had a really good time at junior school as a kid but I was very very timid and and especially as a teenager then became very, very confused and I was not like a like a tough like a strong kid.
I was very overly sensitive and very, you know, and I think I kind of, I kind of tried to compensate with that slowly throughout my life, you know, I tried to look to different martial arts and I tried to become like a tough person.
You know, I tried to do that and manufacture it but when it's sort of built on on top of a weak foundation, as you say it's there's, you know, you can't really you can deal with those things that come your way, different lifestyle choices that you make, trying to be a big boy.
You can deal with that to a certain extent but it's going to come crashing down at some point without that foundation.
No, it does completely. It's funny because I started martial arts for the same reason I was very, very meek.
And even when I was winning titles and stuff.
I still that imposter syndrome was still there, like you know on the outside I probably look like I was, you know, a tough guy quote unquote to the point where even in my late teens some of the friends and ex boyfriend one of the girls I was dating that used to give me shit all the time,
and I stopped because I was in the paper and won this tournament and I'm like I'm the same pussy than I was the day before, you know, but even now at 50 almost 50 doing Muay Thai and Jiu Jitsu and we'll get into, you know, the commonalities there but I still feel like that.
I still feel like basically everyone in the world can kick my ass so it's, it's funny how that kind of, you know that that sense of meekness when you're, when you're little carries over I just made a comment rolling with something I'm like yeah you know,
I'm a small guys and he was like small and I realized I'm six foot and 175 that's not small but in my mind I'm still that little meek tiny kid, and you just, you know, you don't grow out of it, you know you try and project out of it and you try and build and crew up now be strong.
I think I think I think to get you when you can go full circle when you can get back to it because I've been I've been spent the net you know spent the last 10 years trying to get back to that kid.
Because you got too far away from it for all the wrong reasons.
And, and, you know, that's something that I really enjoy actually is, you know, because now I can say, you know, that's not for me or, you know, I don't really enjoy being around a lot of people and, you know, and it's okay.
You don't have to, but, but, but trying to get. I do actually feel like a like a little kid again which is kind of good I think.
Yeah, no, I actually can relate to that because I'm becoming more playful again when you're a first responder for years and years and years seeing all the horrible stuff.
You lose that childishness now that we can be absolute child you know children in the firehouse sometimes with the pranks and stuff, but that ability just to find joy and find joy and all the little things.
It kind of gets stunted a little bit you know we have compassion, fatigue and just burn out and all these things that really, you know, destroy you as an adult but that that kind of innocence and wonder and playfulness that we have as children, I can absolutely relate
because five years out of this profession. I'm finding myself starting to touch base with that again.
Good.
That's cool.
So we're talking to sports when you were school age before we get to your, your acting journey what were you playing back then rugby loved it.
Because it's a chance to be violent.
I wasn't really like, oh I've got it in my head that I want to be violent, but I really enjoyed contact sports, and I was, you know, I wasn't a star player.
But I was on the B team.
And then the fullback got injured. And I got a shot in the on the first team and and secure the place because I had a good game.
But I just loved the content, I loved.
You know, I was good in contact I was good tackler. And I was, I was, you know, I just I just love that game. And I loved the, the organization, I love the discipline of it, you know, and if you want to get a group of kids to work together you know, put them in a rugby team
and teaching rugby. It's unbelievable.
You know, and I absolutely loved it so I played that from, you know, I left school at 16 to be honest with you so but every year I was there I was playing rugby. That was my, that was my jam.
They didn't make much so my school was was a state grammar. Oh my god cat attack.
My school was a state grammar. So we still had the 11 plus in kicks and I think they still do which is where you like you know you take like some basic IQ test when you're 11 years old, and then they split all the kids up based on that.
Not a great system, because a lot of 11 year olds aren't developed. It's just a weird age to do that to people. But anyway, got lucky.
And, but then you send you to this school which is based on the public school system.
British public school, American private words are switched.
But it's free.
So, so they kind of, so they didn't play the long winded way they didn't play football soccer they played rugby, because they were trying to be posh so we would all the teams so we had this school, the mix of all these kids where some of them are from wealthy backgrounds
and some of them are penniless, and we're all in together and there's, it's boys only, and no, no girls, absolute nightmare. You know what I mean like just vibe wise horrible, because just this just too much tension.
So it was really soft Kenzie and in that respect the school, but they had you know good sports programs. There were some great teachers there.
I was, I was terrible cricket, which is the summer sport but but yeah rugby was my thing, we played a lot.
Cricket used to bore the hell out of me I gotta be honest, I'd always end up because I had a decent throw when I was younger and so they put me, you know outfield and I'd just be there like oh for God's sake it was like lifeguarding in a public pool just waiting for some of the drowns
so you can do something.
And you know, you can't grab ahold of anyone and not seven bells out. No exactly.
That's a drawback, as far as I was concerned.
I had a player on my, in my year, Robert Henderson, and he went on to play for Ireland, and the British and Irish Alliance. Oh wow.
Yeah, he was a center played inside center I think. Yeah. Beautiful. Well I heard you on the smoke, they smoke like 20, 20 base.
20, 20 Benson's a day or whatever at that time like he was a freak athlete he helped the head the school 800 meter record or something like that and he was like 10 Benson's.
I wonder what he's doing now I'm assuming he gave up to play that level so.
Yeah, no yeah played it went to that level paid for monster I think as well for for for a while and big big club in Ireland.
So yeah, good old Rob Hendo.
So I heard you on the distraction pieces podcast which is we were discussing before we hit records I think was the only one that you did and that was six years ago.
So, again, honored that you, you came on here so thank you.
But I heard you talking, you know, the kind of the on ramp to your acting so to preface it.
I did a school musical when I was 10 I think it was, and it was funny I had a kind of very posh junior school and then, you know, real kind of spit and saw the senior school so I got, you know, two sides of the coin it was really is excellent but.
So we're in the school plan it was trial by jury by Gilbert and Sullivan, who's like an opera supposed to be, and I forgot the lines and cried and on in front of the whole school on stage on my so I am not confident and even years later and I am the worst actor I
know I got good at stunts so it, it led me into a different profession in the performing world that I was good at but when it came to acting terrible terrible so you have an interesting on ramp as far as not going to drama school.
So walk me through how you actually found yourself on stage and then how that ramped up to professional acting.
So, you rewind from from secondary school to, I was when I was like seven or eight.
My mom heard about there was this woman, a few streets away who had a child agency, right, and I was because I was doing like these little bits of acting at school and being performative and blah blah blah blah little show off, and, and she heard about this agent so we went to
meet her and she took me on and sent me on a bunch of auditions, and I got.
I got a couple of jobs when I was like eight years old.
So I was like, you know, speaking as well like I was in a couple of, you know, dramas, temps television and and and was amazing like you go with your mom you get these rehearsal rooms and it's professional and do a few lines here and there and it was, it was brilliant.
But I got my equity card that way.
I was like 80, I had an equity card at like eight years old. So, I was kind of I kind of felt like, but then after doing like two or three jobs, we went I wasn't interested in going to drama school my parents went into the drama school, you have to do real school
and so that kind of that went away and we stopped doing that.
But we had this card for like later in life you know which was amazing.
And then in secondary school with this amazing drama teacher called Frank Wailey.
And I didn't study drama school and do drama so he wasn't my drama teacher but he would do the school plays with us so that's how I knew it.
And we would do, we did a play one year in conjunction with this theater company called the National Youth Music Theater, a great organization.
And so we put on this school play and it was, it was really amazing. And that it was it was developed, like we workshopped it was about.
It was about the beginning of ragged schools in 19th century London when Lord Shaftesbury like started getting these kids together and give them jobs as boot blacks shining shoes and trying to give poor children an education.
And we put this play on and workshopped it and developed it so it was a very organic sort of thing. And then that theater company, then cast a wider network of additions and we took that play on to other other places around Southern England and then to the
Edinburgh Festival.
And that's how I joined that theater company. And so it was an amateur theater company.
We would tour, we would go to places only during school holidays like you know, spring break and summer holidays, and you'd meet kids from all over the UK come together and rehearse and then take the play to we went to, you know, Exeter Festival the
Edinburgh Festival we went to Norway to a to Bergen theater festival. We went to Greece.
And I did that for like next four years.
It was an amazing education, because, you know, you're 12 1314 years old, and you're performing to paying audiences around Europe, it was unbelievable to a fairly high standard.
It was a music theater but it was kind of, it was kind of theater with music so it wasn't like we were doing straight musicals usually all that and then singing is not my thing I'm not I'm not a singer.
And so the kids coming out of that have gone on to really good things and I mean there's some actors like I mean Jude Law, I met, I met him there, and we became, you know, very close friends and have been ever since.
You know Sally Hawkins who's been you know nominated for an Oscar and people like that Matt Lucas was in that company I think Eddie Redmayne as well as one and Oscar, or you know so it has good, good pedigree coming out that Jamie Bell I think as well.
So that was a really good so having done that I was kind of decided that I didn't really need a for him. I'm like why am I going to then I hated school, hated it, because I had this amazing life in the summer I was doing, doing actual stuff.
You know what I mean. And so, as soon as I could, I left school, and, you know, got a regular job.
You know moving deliveries around and could go to auditions because I had this card from when I was eight years old, the Secretary card. So I was like why am I going to go to another institution where I'll just stare out the window all the time.
And I've got this card why don't I get I've got I've got a bunch of experience in the theater. Why don't I go and try and get a head start on all my peers, you know, and that's what I did.
It took me a couple of years of doing different jobs for money like, you know, tearing to being an usher at a theater or being the storeman at the Hard Rock Cafe.
And then a couple of years time I managed to start getting enough work where I didn't have to do those jobs anymore I could just do acting and make a living on it.
So did you have an agent, because when I came out of drama school no equity card and for people listening that's the version of sag back in the UK.
I was stuck in this this vicious circle I did this monologue from a play called Welcome Home by Tony Marchant and it was the this Falklands veteran who was.
Oh, Tony. Oh, yeah. Amazing. Amazing. I love that well I'm actually it's funny I'm writing a second book and I'm, there's an element of that in this one kind of era that I'm touching on, and it's going to be a Falklands era.
But I resonated, you know, even, even today, but it was this, this character basically has PTSD and he's recalling what happened on Bocca Hill.
And so I did this monologue and I was very different than my other drama school friends because I was a, you know, an athlete and everything and they were a little bit more thespian esque and I mean that with the kindest term so I was just different so
there's a couple of agents that were like oh actually we like you. One was William Morris, and I'm like oh wow this is going well.
And I was told, but I don't, the person was watching wouldn't have been the department that I would have been the right fit for he said I'll tell him my colleagues so let me know when you get some work.
And I was all excited and I got back to London started looking for work and was oh, you can't get work without an agent and you can't get agent without work so this was around 99 things when I graduated so and bearing in mind I'm also not a good actor
mechanic so I'll take fact of those in as well but so I ended up in this vicious circle and never got anywhere so ironically I even put my name in for Band of Brothers and I'll talk about that in a little bit but I ended up working with Dale Dye but for a completely
different reason.
But back to the question sorry I just went off on a monologue. So, what about you with the agent side.
This, this kid agency that I've been the lady.
It changed hands. There's one called Jean Darnell.
And she, she, she kept me on through all those years I wasn't doing any work I was still on the books from, you know, from, I was just doing the amateur theater from 12 to like 18.
She kept me on the books and.
She was a lead to show she didn't usually take people over the age of 18. But I've been there so long and she decided to, she said she, she'd represent me for a while.
When you know I was 1819. And then, so she represented me for a while and I got into like, I got a job of doing it, I was in a play at the Bush theater.
And another agent came to see that. So I always had representation, which is, you know, the luck of the gods man, you know I just, yeah, it was just that I guess it was that move when I was like 18, when I was like eight years old like go and see somebody
and then I got put in the door at this agency. And they agreed to, to represent me as a young adult until it was time for me to get an adult agent.
And I got and I got lucky because I did a play called beautiful thing at the Bush theater.
I think it's just just had a revival actually amazing play, and, and another agent came to see that and was like yeah Pippa Markham she came and she said, I'll represent you.
So I just, you know, fell into that.
Now, when I think of you know when I first came across you, it's got to be trained spot and I remember seeing hackers later but train spot and was the first one. I don't want to make the assumption though that was the big break so kind of walk me through, you know,
after a couple years of doing regular jobs, you're able to be full time to when you got the, the audition for train spying and or hackers.
Yeah, so you're okay so it's like, I mean God, honestly I bought myself.
So again, very mighty haven't you.
This is the second.
Yeah, killing me.
Yeah, so like you know you when you're a young actor in the in Britain like you do all the all the standard things like you're doing casual an episode of casualty you know you're, I was like you know one of the nasty kids that gets somebody injured that then ends up in the casualty store.
And then you had to wait the bill you remember the bill. So it was like a cop show shows are still really good London's growing the bill casualty I would say we need more shows like that less Hollywood more realism.
So I was in the bill twice as two different people.
So you had to wait different miscreants. You had to wait you had to wait the rule was you had to wait 18 months if you were in the bill, like you know as a snot nosed kid making trouble then you and then you had to wait 18 months before you could be in it again as another snot nosed kid
making.
So that how dumb we British people are that after a year and a half we forget everything.
But that that speccy kid from Kingston.
You can do it again you weren't that memorable will give you can do 12 months.
So you do like a bunch of jobs like that and then I did actually did a, I did a drop a couple of really interesting dramas that they had these the BBC used to be so good to have these programs and they had a man they're called Michael wearing who my mom ended up working for
BBC one and BBC two and he ran the drama there and they were they were very edgy and they had the screen one and screen two series like BBC one BBC two, and they would make these these standalone movies and three part dramas that were of such great quality
and it's weird people like Tony March and so I did this three part drama called goodbye cool world that Tony had written about about a woman who gets motor neurone syndrome, and gradually loses all her faculties and the ability to move and speak and it's a bad it was
it was about her family dealing with that and her husband dealing with it, and trying to what the challenges of fundraising and and being too distracted by fundraising and not caring enough about her and, and you know all those interesting questions.
And I was their their their son so anyway, but sorry tangent.
So I did a ton of jobs like that and then actually the first big movie was was hackers that came along and it was like the first time some that you know I went for an audition and then they like flew me to New York to like read with with actors, you know, for the
film and it was extraordinary experience. And I guess I was living, I was living in a flat in Kentish town with Jude.
And, you know, this, this dingy little flat above a Chinese takeaway on the on the fortress road in Kentish town.
And I was like, I'm off to America.
And that so that was the kind of the first sort of the biggest, biggest job I'd ever got. And even though it came out after transporting we made it first, and then.
So, when you when you start getting jobs it's like you get.
You get known throughout those casting circles I guess, even if the public doesn't know who you are the sort of the industry starts to, you know.
So when I made that and then, you know, it was pretty I think it was pretty soon after that I was, I was, I was, I had fallen in love with with Angelina right.
And I was chasing around the globe.
And I don't know what money I had I spent it I went to visit she was making a film after we off we'd shot hackers she was making a film in in Portland, Oregon. So I flew over there to bug her.
And, and, you know, be that kind of, you know, you know,
she doesn't know any better. Yeah, what about me. And I'd flow over there and I was visiting with her and and you and I was friends with with you and McGregor a little bit socially, he had he had bumped into Jude, a, an audition.
I don't think it ever came to fruition but it was they were both auditioning to be in this like this movie about a rock band or something, and the director told giving them 20 quid and told them to go to the pub and get drunk.
You didn't want to do those two at that time.
But they, they pulled up their socks and they went to the pub and and got drunk, and, and then became very good friends.
So I knew you and a bit socially.
And he recommended me I think to to Gail I think it was casting train spotting and Danny Boyle, you and I've done a movie with Danny before shallow grave. Right.
So my name got thrown in the pot for whatever reason. Thank you, you and, and I was on, I was just about to get on a plane back from Portland.
And, you know, I've been misbehaving all weekend over there, and then flew back, went to a phone box to get the address of, we'll find out what was going on with this train spotting audition.
And I think I went from the airport hung around lunch so her bit and then went straight to the audition. So I didn't even go home and change. I mean back in those I mean, when you're younger you can do things like that.
You know, well for that role it probably didn't matter if you weren't suited and booted anyway.
No, but, you know, we like to think about like preparation now and nailing the audition and all that but I must have been just so arrogant.
You know, or, or I don't know like I can't even I can't even imagine what I was thinking or not thinking, you know,
but I really liked you know I really thought the material was great and I managed to throw in a half decent Sean Connery impersonation in that in that audition and, and I guess that job like, it was just another job like it no one knew it was going to be like a big success,
it was just another job but it was super interesting and like you know once you meet Danny he's like one of the nicest people. Danny Boyle like one of the nicest men out there, and just a really just not condescending, he hasn't got a condescending bone in his body
he's just a, he just knows how to work with people I had to get the best out of them and he, he's just all about the truth of the subject right and it was just such an incredible experience of, you know, the right way to rehearse the right way to prepare the right way to research
and meeting people all left right and center to do with this that you know, former drug addicts, you know guys in rehab, watching movies to do with little bits and all getting together and rehearsing and it was just that kind of experience now.
The book had been quite successful so we knew there was going to be a bit of a tension around it but you know, when you're making, when you're making like a TV show or a movie or whatever, you do get a vibe if it's going well like you know, well this feels good
because these guys are all really good and that set looks really cool and this, this director of photography he seems to like really know what he's doing, and the design is incredible. So you kind of think well, yes, this is might not suck, you know, but then you know it went to like it was like the number one movie in the UK and we were like wow.
And then all these doors open for you. And if you're anything like me, you ignore them all and run away to America, and, and misbehave. So,
we're going to get to that portion but before we do, when I think back, it's been a while since I watched Trainspotting but I absolutely went and saw it in the film and it's going to be in the cinema and thinking about it now and how I remember how it made me feel reminds me of a
conversation I just had with Suzanne Stein who's a street photographer. And there's a kind of spectrum of street photography from beautiful and kind of cinematic all the way through to very raw and she's on the raw side.
And she made a comment that a lot of her work and sadly a lot of people that she's taking pictures of at the moment they're on Trank, which is the latest drug that everyone's battling with you've got the Fentanyl but you've also got this Trank and the Trank wounds literally start
to come off. So these people seem like zombies not only from their mental state but their flesh is literally coming off them. Is that like tranquilizers? Yeah, it's literally a horse tranquilizer. I forget the name of the tranquilizer but yeah they're combining it which I think is A, supposed to prolong the high from the Fentanyl and then B, you know, as a paramedic like if we come and give Narcan, it's not going to affect the Trank. So it's very dangerous as well.
But she made the comment that a lot of the media won't take her work, but they will show these graphic images from Ukraine and Gaza. And when I think of train spying, it's that same discomfort. We're not showing, you know, Compton in the 80s with the crack epidemic or New York, we're showing
Glasgow here in the UK. So it's one of those films I almost feel that we need again, we need to revisit it because this is what's happening on our, you know, on our soil in America and Australia and England, excuse me, in the UK.
And yet, even with the human trafficking conversation there was that film that came out not too long ago and it was all heroic but it was all overseas, whereas actually most of the trafficking is happening domestically, and our children are being groomed through social media and all these kind of things.
So, what I loved about train spying is it held that right in front of your face and said this is happening here, whether you like it or not, you're going to have to watch this.
Yeah, and also you know that's why it resonates with people so much because, you know, it's, you can make stories about stuff more authentically about things that are closer to you and closer to home.
And you have a group of people doing that we tell our sort of tell local story if you like I'm talking nationally but local. That's kind of, you know, and I think that's why it
is so important that people can identify with pretty much everything in that film even though it's kind of a heightened level of reality.
And it got some criticism for, you know, glamorizing or being, but but I don't I don't necessarily agree with that.
It's not necessarily confrontational like that. And it's trying to give you the perspective of those guys, and in their eyes, they're, you know, I mean, Danny had always said if he was making a completely realistic version of that world, it would, you know,
be unwatchable.
And I think someone asked him once what do you think the average junkie is think thinks about this.
And he said, the average junkie is thinking where the fuck am I going to get my next hit from, you know, they don't give a fucking shit about some stupid movie.
So, you know,
it was an interesting. But I agree with you that you know like I'm all about those finding a new way to speak to whatever generation is and that's always the magic in the bottle that everyone's looking for is how to identify how to connect with an audience
because if you if you make it I've always believed that if you make a good product in that, as I say the word product but essentially that's what it is right, like if you make something good.
If you build it, they will come. I honestly believe that and if you know it might not happen immediately it might not happen because because of all the different platforms there are now the different ways people can access different content it might not get to its audience
as quickly. But a good films hang around and good stories hang around, I think.
Absolutely. Well, when I think of a comparable film, and now I've got a 16 year old son. Another one that really grabbed me by the throat was kids, and it made you think about, you know, kids drugs alcohol, you know, sex all these things and as a parent it really was you know,
it was it was horrifying as a person who was a little bit older than the kids in the movie but then now as a parent of a 16 and 22 year old, you know, it makes you think again not only the vulnerability of your son but also to make sure that your son doesn't become, you know, a nuisance a pest a predator or whatever it is.
Yeah.
You made this very raw powerful film. Were there any stories that came out of it as far as increasing the awareness of the addiction crisis in the UK at that time or even people that were steered away addiction because of the film.
Not that I know. And at the time I wasn't I wouldn't have been responsive to those kind of discussions and you know you couldn't really have them I mean there wasn't really an internet.
So you weren't getting feedback like that.
I mean, you know, and I, I might my head was up my ass anyway to be honest with you and I you know as a young guy that that wasn't really that was trying probably trying to avoid those conversations.
You know,
we tell you talked about kind of, you know, this next chapter. So you are, you know, pursuing the art of acting up to this point, and acting and celebrity are two different things you know I think that's why I've got so much admiration for Gary Oldman for example,
such an incredible actor you never see him on any, you know tabloid or anything at all.
You're a young man you get thrust into the limelight now. You talked about some of the challenges earlier in their life. So what did that kind of pendulum swing look like for you.
I mean, the big, the big thing is like, it wasn't like, you're like a huge you're not you're not like Tom Cruise overnight you know I mean like and if you if you're like mid level, like, like that, like it kind of made us lower to mid levels.
You have. Everyone's like okay go. Okay, you. I went to LA to to live with Angie, right, and then we ended up getting married.
And while I was there it was like, I got hooked up with an American agent and then you're like you know going to all those auditions and I was just messing up auditions or in LA that's what I was doing.
And, you know, I ended up working a bit over there.
Couple of times like my memory is a bit, a bit hazy.
But really that's sort of I started using drugs a lot you know and and I was avoiding I didn't I didn't go to like the Cannes Film Festival where Trainspotting had its big premiere I mean I didn't go.
I was too busy, you know, doing nothing.
So you can avoid that pendulum swing if you're if you want to. It's a it's a it's a big misnomer I think that I think it's my experience as well even, you know,
even even big stars to a certain degree, you can avoid it if you want to. You can blend into the crowd it's how you carry yourself and how down to earth you are really and you can also on the other hand play up to it and become quite you know,
you can behave like royalty or isolate yourself or get isolated because you because of the fear of being you know recognized or whatever but if you if you're just like whatever man they kind of there are ways to avoid it, I think.
I mean I don't speak from experience of being super famous because I never have been and I'm not and it's not something I would wish for ever.
But yeah, I just ignored it. I kind of I squandered a lot of opportunities and I don't have any regrets about anything to be honest with you because I wouldn't be sitting here and I wouldn't have this you know great kid.
You know, I wouldn't you know just nothing needs to change you know what I mean.
But at that time I was just I got preoccupied, you know with myself.
How old is your son now 15 just turned 15 might be going from school in a minute, but I told him to be quiet when he comes in.
And that was with Angelina Jolie.
No, no, no, we were married for a couple of years, and we separated in 97. No, Buster's mom is a lady called Michelle and I met her.
I'm going to get off then. I just want to make sure. So two things with that. Firstly, like you said you're you're now, you know, enjoying your time in LA and I and by the way, chasing her, I went to drama school because I chased a girl she was in costume and design in
Welsh College of Music and Drama and I just got myself in because I want to be by her. That's why I was such a bad actor.
I've done it. Yeah. And then I moved to America after marrying an American girl, and, you know, we'll get into that in a second but you yourself train spot and gets to a certain point but Angelina obviously had a pretty significant level of celebrity.
You know, you're the dark side of the paparazzi you know, sticking their noses in from I mean the worst case to me is you know when they're hounding people's children. Did you experience the dark side of that when you were in that marriage?
No, no, because she was just starting out. She was 1920, and she'd be done hackers and then that was you know that was it and it wasn't a successful film at that time, it did alright but it wasn't, you know, later years it sort of got sort of culty status
because of its sort of ridiculousness.
But at the time it wasn't a big deal.
But she was like on this starting out kind of journey and I think it was became quite apparent like I kind of knew she was going to be big, you know, because she was very very good at her job, and really beautiful.
So, that's good.
Got some things going for you though she's really really good actor like and people tend to forget that.
So, so yeah I was just like, there was none of that going on and now, and, you know, I spent a lot of time like, you know, locked in a room anyway.
Did she shoot Gia when you were together then? Have we got that?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That was a brilliant film. Yeah, and then she started winning like she won like three Golden Globes or whatever on the bounce or something and it was, you know, you were like, she was off to the races man.
So I was married, you know ended up discovering that when I was at the fire station someone else was in my house with her. So that marriage ended. But what was really jarring and I did have a little boy at the time.
So, he was only, it's a good thing because I can storytell now and hopefully people can relate to it but he was three when, you know, it fell apart.
But what was jarring as I realized, because I've moved to the US from the UK.
I didn't really have anyone around me I didn't have family a lot of my friends were in California ironically when I worked prior to moving back to the East Coast.
So when you went through that when that first marriage ended did you find yourself in any kind of isolation when you're knowing that you'd left a lot of people back on the other side of the Atlantic.
Yeah, but I got on a plane and went home, and I went back to the UK, and I lived in the UK for the next seven or eight years.
I went I went back.
Because I was like, this is not, there's nothing going on here and I, and I, and I got into some bad habits and I don't know like lots of stories crisscross here.
But I went back with, you know, my tail between my legs. And then and you know it was one of those things where you know she's a really cool lady, and, and, and we're really good friends now.
And so it wasn't. It was a sort of, it was the light, it was as an amicable split and there was no responsibilities with there was no kid, there was no, you know, and everything was, it was cool.
But yeah, I do identify with what you're saying a lot because later because when me and Michelle,
who was my second wife.
We met in LA, I went back to LA access, I could stomach it I stomach England for about another seven years and then I was like, I wasn't going the way I wanted it to wasn't getting the jobs I wanted.
I blamed it all on, you know, the business over there. It wasn't, it wasn't to do with me right. And then I went to LA and started looking for work again, and immediately found work, and I was like Americans are awesome.
And then I met Michelle, and two years later we have, you know, we have a kid. But she's from New Jersey, and so with that we're in LA and she's from New Jersey and she has a, she had a challenging upbringing, and her siblings are.
She had no dad in the picture, and her siblings are both developmentally disabled.
And her mom is kind of overloaded. And so neither of us had anybody, any, any relatives to ever like, watch the kids every time you want to do stuff like go out or have a date night those kind of things tend to take a backseat because you've got to find a babysitter
because there's always there's never family to take the cushion. And I think that's a real challenge for people. When you both sort of come from a long way away and you're both transplants and, and, and, and you're dealing with, with raising a little one that there.
That's a major challenge.
And that's even we came back to New York, even being close to time it was still still the case here for us we're not together anymore but it was a challenge and a challenge when we separated as well a huge challenge, because it's just you man.
It is indeed this funny my, my little boy had a babysitter as a neighbor's daughter from across the street and she, she's amazing young girl she was, I mean just crushing it in high school and then ended up entering the military I think she went into the anesthesia program
or something but she would, you know, study while she watched my son if I went out.
I was dating because I was trying to trying to F my life after the divorce. But her name is my Asia, and I remember this little, you know, three four year old kid saying all right, we're going to have my age is going to come, he'd go, it's not my, it's not your Asia it's my Asia.
So I always remember that this is sweet young girl that would babysit.
When you, as you said you came out of that first relationship if my timelines right in my head. That's around the time that band of brothers was casting like I said I threw my name in the hat and ironically years later, they'll die ran a boot camp for a stunt show that I
was in in Japan, and he's actually, he's been on the show he's come on again to talk about the masters of air in a few weeks which is just about to come in on Apple.
But that was a big big production in in British, you know drama around 99 ish so were you offered any of the roles in that production.
No.
By, I love band brothers, and I've seen the whole thing through about three or four times.
Absolutely love that show, and
everything about it.
Just everything music production, acting, just just those absolutely great piece of work. But no, I don't, I don't think so. It's like I say it's like, you know, it's very hard for me to remember all those things and all the things that I dismissed as kind of not.
Not right for me I don't want to do that, not you know like thinking of yourself, you try all the time you want to be Gary oldman all the time you want to be Al Pacino Robert De Niro you know what I mean and so you're, you're, you're saying no to a lot of stuff.
But I don't remember being offered band of brothers now.
So you talked about, you know, dabbling in drugs, you know around the earlier time you have a divorce you go home for seven years you come back to LA.
Walk me through like where was the lowest place that you found yourself because you talked about your life kind of mirroring Bobby's and Bobby has a very powerful kind of addiction slash recovery story so what was your low and then what was it that you were able to kind of find to
claw your way out of that.
Gosh, I mean, I had an I had a number of lows.
And that was kind of.
I kept getting away with it or being okay enough.
And to think I was okay, you know what I mean.
I was, you know, taking very hard drugs, I was addicted to heroin for a couple of years. And when I, when I moved back to, to the UK.
I just dropped it associated it with somewhere else and I was able to just drop it. Now I substituted it with a, you know, whole host of other things but, but I, but what it did was.
It convinced me or foolishly convinced me that I didn't have a substance abuse problem because I was able to do that who can do that and if you have a, you know, if you're able to conquer that beast then you know you're good.
So,
I got very low, I think in like 99 2000.
Just drinking and drinking and and cocaine. And I was, I was balancing act I was I was training for like the London marathon and I was burning the candle both ends you know, and a little bit in the middle.
Because I on the one hand I was super fit dude you know that could run like you know, a 308 marathon, and then, you know, I would hammer it afterwards because I learned it and all that kind of stuff was going on but but I was miserable ish and it sort of
came to a point I went to I went to a meeting with them into an NA meeting with with a friend and like broke down. And I spent a year, clean and sober and felt great.
And then I decided to sort of go to India and travel around India for three months, and I did that and I started drinking again there because I felt better I was better, and I started drinking again, got myself into like trouble in India.
I mean, I got lost.
Don't recommend that.
Waking up not knowing where you are.
Other than the fact that you're in India.
I mean, it was like inception.
So, but then you know came back from India and that was such an amazing experience as a human. It was incredible that I had this new outlook on life so I felt better, and I felt like I was okay.
And I felt like I well I just needed to sort of grow up a bit.
And so, that was like 2001, and then I spend the next 10 years thinking I'm okay, and then things gradually.
I gradually lose control over those 10 years.
You know, you know, at one point in my life, I think, I think before this would be, you know, at some point in the early 2000s or late 90s, you know I was smoking weed, all the time you know, and thinking, it's just that, but you know when you're doing it and morning and night
I mean that's a problem dude, and you're not developing and this is what I've mentioned before about being emotionally stunted and emotionally retarded.
It's because you're not really developing those those skills those life skills at all, and you're not dealing with people properly.
So anyway, the lowest point is like you know I get, I, you know, I meet, I meet this wonderful lady and we get, we get married.
No.
Yeah, we get married.
We have a kid, and he's when he's like two years old is when an incident happens, you know, and I just I I started blacking out a lot, like three times a week, you know I'm blacking out.
And, you know, I did some really like embarrassing stuff.
And that was when I was like okay I'm going to lose my family, so.
And then finally, I knew what to do, because I'd done it before.
And I rang someone up and asked them to take me ask them for help and I take you to a meeting or whatever.
So, and then I just haven't looked back since.
And things don't immediately like you know life doesn't immediately get better.
It gets worse, like my marriage didn't even didn't survive that, but dealt with everything since progressively head on stone cold sober, and you experienced life just so much more because you've got nowhere to hide you can't hide from anything.
So you have to deal with it.
I've got to deal with both of my parents, within six months of each other, all that kind of stuff. And, and I wouldn't just I wouldn't change it for the world like, you know, to be completely present at like a parents funeral and not be getting, you know, everyone
because they're just wanted to celebrate somebody and, but you get to remember and really experience all the lovely things that people have to say about your mom. When they come up to you, you know you remember it, and you experience it and it really helps with like the healing process
and the grieving process because you know you're facing it like you're staring at everything like full on so so that that kind of sobriety then you know you realize all the problems that you got right in your head.
You've covered them up with with whatever substance for, you know, 20 years.
Now, now you've got to deal with them because they're going to come to the surface you can't just wash them down so that then led me to, you know, I had a taste of therapy through like marriage counseling.
And then I finally was like, all right, I'll go to therapy because I was because it was I had the stigma about it I was like I don't need that I must I must a strong person that can deal with things you know I've trained for marathons I've done you know I know I know what it is
to know about thirsty and like you know and then my eyes were like opened to what therapy actually is and discovering,
you know, how to deal with trauma and what actually what what was going on back then, you know what we touched on earlier what what it was that was happening, and why I feel all these certain things.
Now there's certain things that happen in recovery that are great like personal inventory and finding out what your part in all these grievances that you have with all these people and things that really come up a lot a lot a lot with people are fear and control.
And so you realize the amount of fear that you have about life and the amount of control that you're trying to exert over it.
And then, you know, I've been in therapy regularly since.
And I've done did some awesome stuff called like EMDR therapy, which I, which is mind blowing because I've talked to a mate.
I mean, I've talked to him recently after I started it.
And I've heard that it's been used for veterans, but it makes an absolute difference. It was explained to me by my therapist like, okay, so just talking sometimes isn't enough.
You have to reprogram your amygdala. So you don't have these fight or flight responses which are in there and the only way to do that is to light it up and so you light it up with the, you know, pulses or the lights and going to this like trance thing.
I don't exactly exactly know how it works. It's kind of magic. But, but I found that hugely beneficial and could not recommend it enough to anyone who's listening.
So yeah, so learning about I don't know if I've gone way off track here but no no keep going from learning about who you are and being okay with it and that you can do stuff.
And sticking with it. It's like my, one of the guys that helped me earlier on in my recovery was an old friend and we used to be drinking buddies in the UK a bit and knew him he was in the music business.
And, but we used to train in the same kickboxing gym.
And I'll tell you what, most instructors are bad ass right if he tells you this is where you put your feet in this hay through a punch.
if things get better or not.
If they don't get better, come and complain to me,
come and yell at me or whatever, but invariably they do.
And it's just something I don't miss.
But learning about how kind of stunted I was emotionally
was kind of a revelation.
And I've been working to sort of change that
and become more,
be able to interact with people better
because I wasn't good at it.
There's a few things I wanna pull from that.
First one, EMDR has come up a lot
and there's a lot of people who have success with it.
Some people haven't, and it almost seems
like the common denominator is,
it seems to work very well for acute trauma.
So there's a thing that bothers you over and over again,
and you talk about that thing, but the cumulative one,
I've been a firefighter for 14 years,
I'm feeling this way.
Is there something that bothers you?
No, those ones it doesn't seem to work as well for.
So was it an acute experience
that you were trying to work through with EMDR?
Yeah, yeah.
It's not something I can really go into
because it involves another person,
but there were reactions that I would have around
stuff to do with looking after my kid
and some things that had happened
and I would just be, when you get divorced,
when he's not here, I would just be worried,
senseless about him and there were certain things
that would happen and I would be like freaking out.
And it was, so I worked on that for it
and it assuaged my anxiety about that.
I do, that's why as well I discovered
that I suffer from anxiety and depression most of my life.
I went to see, eventually went to see a psychiatrist
and tell him your life story and he's like,
oh no, you've had this forever.
Which was great to discover, it's not,
and it was never like, oh man, I got anxiety and depression.
It was like, oh thank fuck, I thought it was crazy.
It's like, yes, you know what it is, it's just a huge relief.
And I know it gets thrown around a lot
and people are skeptical about it,
but it's fucking real, man, it is real.
That black cloud is real and I don't care
what the reasons are for it or whether,
it's not a competition, man, it's like, it is fucking real.
Because you can have everything right and everything great
and a nice house and be in love with your kid
but you can't see the fucking future, man.
The future is gray.
So yeah, so dealt with that.
But none of that stuff is available to you unless you,
if you have like addiction going on, you know,
none of it's available, you'll never get to it,
but it doesn't matter what you try, you know,
you're not gonna get to it unless you really find out
who you are and what the fuck is going on with you.
So when you were talking about being addicted to heroin
and ironically, you know, a few short years prior
you were portraying heroin addicts in a film,
it kind of mirrors when you see doctors and nurses
outside the hospital having a cigarette
or firefighters flying down the road without a seatbelt on,
you know, we know better, but we still do it anyway.
Did you catch yourself at any point kind of reflecting
on the irony of knowing through portrayal
what the addiction does and yet finding yourself
in that very same addiction?
Yeah, I don't think I was as reflectively clever as that,
you know, I don't think I was,
it was probably lost on me because I was more of like,
I didn't give a shit, you know what I mean?
I had tried, I think I was the only guy
who had actually, you know, tried that stuff
before we made it.
I wasn't like using it regularly, but I tried it.
I never, I never, god, I'm really,
I'm really spilling the beans today,
but I never, I never injected anything.
That was a step too far for me.
But so I think maybe my, you know,
my journey with it wasn't as rough as some people's,
but I mean, I'm lightweight.
Well, I mean, it was born in an era now where, you know,
it's prescribed left, right and center.
I mean, you know, shortly,
should I think of my timeline now in my head?
Yeah, shortly after I was when in the US,
we had the pill mills and, you know,
opiate addiction blew up over here
when everyone was on heroin.
It just was called a different name.
Yeah, unbelievable.
So you talked about Muay Thai as well.
I trained in a gym in London.
I think it was either Camden or Kentish town.
Where was your Muay Thai gym?
And let's get on your kind of journey of martial arts
and how you found yourself in Jiu Jitsu.
So it wasn't, it wasn't back then,
it was kickboxing that I did,
American style freestyle kickboxing kind of.
And it was a guy called Rafael Nieto.
And he has still, yeah,
I think he has like two or three gyms in London now,
but he had been a student of Mugendo in King's Cross.
And when I joined, they were moving
and he was starting his own place.
And he called it, had a various couple of names.
He went through, I think you can call it Zendo now,
but it was like, it was like Taekwondo
from the waist down, boxing from the waist up.
So it's very different to Muay Thai
because we kick with a bent knee.
Lead the knee and then flick it out.
It was more like that kind of,
and then the hands were a bit lower.
But my martial arts journey is like,
I remember when I was like six trying karate
because everyone wanted to do karate back then.
My mom would take me to karate a couple of times,
but I didn't really like the vibe.
So I didn't want to go back.
I didn't, I don't know, didn't like the vibe.
It was Shochikan karate.
I was too timid for it.
You know what I mean?
Like, I don't think I want to go there.
When I was, I think, 19, 20,
I looked up a place in King's Cross.
I went to like a traditional Japanese jujitsu place
run by a veteran in the basement of some,
like some shady spot in King's Cross.
And that was all right.
Kind of like that, did that for a while,
but it didn't stick.
And actually the Mugendo place was upstairs.
I tried Aikido for a bit while I was in the US.
Felt like that was really good.
Did that for about a year, half a year or something.
So I've flitted around all these things my whole life,
but nothing had stuck.
And then when I found the Mugendo place
and started training with Rafael, which is in Camden,
I did that solidly like four times,
four or five times a week for three years.
I was there like every day, loved it.
And then I moved to the States.
So when I moved to the States in end of 2005,
that went away.
And I was kind of, I loved that place.
So I trained really hard there
and I'd gotten a bunch of belts
and been through all these like,
really tough gradings and stuff.
Never fought, never represented them,
but I didn't really want to like getting together
with finding a new gym just seemed like a big hill
to climb again.
And I wasn't ready to like find another family like that.
You know what I mean?
And then life took over.
And so for the next sort of 10 years, I didn't train.
But I was running a lot and I got really back into my running.
I would run with weight a lot.
When I lived in London, I'd like run all over
Hampton Heath with a very heavy pack
because I was obsessed with the SAS.
I used to lifeguard on the ponds in the Heath for years.
You probably see me struggling past
with a backpack full of old scripts.
Like I would run with about 40 pounds
and feel like Andy McNabb in all weather.
Anyway, got really into my running
and I've run like a bunch of marathons.
And so I didn't train.
And then I got in a,
and it wasn't when I came back into New York
and then I started doing outside ultra marathon running.
And my goal was to like run a few more times
and my goal was to like run a few 50 milers.
And then I was like, oh my God, these are so hard.
There's no way I'm gonna do a hundred miler.
And then I was like, well, a little bit late,
you feel okay, end up running a hundred miler.
And then when I got divorced again,
I just got fed up with all that training on my own.
And I was fed up with being on my own.
And even though I felt like I'd really pushed myself
to do something that not a lot of people do,
around a hundred miles in a day, fucking did it.
But like, I'm sick and tired of all this training on my own.
And I used to kick box man.
So that was fun.
And I eventually, I walked into a Muay Thai gym here
called Evolution Muay Thai
and really hit it off with the owner
and head coach there, Brandon Levi.
And then I was off to the races.
That was like, that became home.
And especially being sober, it's like going to the pub.
You're just surrounded by people that you like.
You're telling jokes, having fun, but instead of drinking,
you're learning to knock seven bells out of each other
or whatever, or knock seven bells out of some pads.
So it was brilliant.
It was a perfect thing for me.
And that's where I discovered
what a team sport fighting is.
That it's, yes, it's an individual sport,
but the people do not realize that don't do it.
The team and the amount of bonding that goes on there.
And Evolution was great, especially then,
they're in a different spot now,
but they had a very big mat space.
And so they could divide it in half.
So you'd have the 530 Muay Thai class here
and the 530 Nogi Jiu Jitsu class going on over there.
And then the 630 Muay Thai class
and the 630 Gi class going on.
And then you could just hang around.
So there's people hanging around like the whole time,
all day, there's people, you could just go there and hang out.
And I fell back in love with combat sports.
And then I was persuaded to try the Jiu Jitsu.
And I, much to Brandon's chagrin,
I started being on the Jiu Jitsu side of the rope
more than the Muay Thai side of the rope.
But I did go back and did train and have,
do a smoker fight, an exhibition fight.
And then I did, I managed to get on the card
of Friday Night Fights and had a fight
representing Evolution here in New York,
which is just like a fantasy. It's just like, you know,
you can, you feel like you're a professional athlete.
It's unbelievable.
So what about the Jiu Jitsu side?
So you fight, you know, you do the smoker,
you fight in the Muay Thai.
What did you end up loving about the grappling side in the end?
A couple of things.
I mean, I'd been in denial about Jiu Jitsu for so many years.
Right? I'd been like, I was like,
oh yeah, these guys think they're it.
And I've heard this and blah, blah, blah.
Jiu Jitsu, Jiu Jitsu, Jiu Jitsu.
So it was kind of like, I had a thing about it.
And then, and then what I like about it is,
it's exhausting.
I mean, not that Muay Thai isn't,
but you get your hands on each other, every class,
and then you're learning techniques,
and then you are putting those techniques into practice,
real practice sparring rounds, every class.
So the Muay Thai, you might, you know, you might have,
you can only go to the sparring,
like they only have it like Tuesday night or Thursday night,
Saturday afternoons.
You go to go especially to the sparring class,
but you're getting practical application of Jiu Jitsu,
every class you go to.
And you really, you know, scratch that itch
of competition a little bit, you know,
I know it's not supposed to be,
it's all training and blah, blah, blah.
But you do, you get to like, you know,
try and grapple with someone every time.
And I really, I really liked that.
And I kind of knew, I kind of knew from experience that,
you know, fights aren't always like this.
And there are so many self-defense applications
for Jiu Jitsu, being able to control another person
without hurting them, that's another very cool thing.
I got in a wild, when I lived in LA
before I moved back to New York.
So this is a few years before,
I caught a bloke trying to steal out of the,
trying to go through our mail on a mailbox,
he was on a bicycle outside.
And I just had an argument with my wife.
I was feeding my son breakfast.
And I see out the window,
this dude like going through my mailbox.
So I go, I go, watch buster.
And I storm out of the house
and I don't put my shoes on or nothing.
I just, and he goes down the hill on a bike
and I jump in the car and I catch him
at my neighbor's mailbox, doing the same thing.
And I'm like, jump out of the car,
I'm like, oh, and he takes off on his bike.
And then I chase him and I run him off the road
and he takes off.
And we ended up having a brawl.
It's like eight o'clock in the morning,
it's just nowhere around on a Sunday or whatever.
And we had this brawl in the street
and this dude's massive.
And I've got no shoes,
I've got my shorts and no shoes or socks on.
And I couldn't control him.
And he's trying to get away, but I can't control him.
And so I chase them out
and I'm trying to call the police and I'm going to,
and this goes on for 15 minutes.
I call the police three times.
And eventually we're like two streets away
from where I've left my car.
And a detective shows up and pulls a gun on us
and tells us to freeze
and puts us both in handcuffs up against the wall.
And then eventually the cops all show up
and I'd rip this guy's bag off
because when I jump out of the car
and tackle him on someone's lawn, right?
He's got a bag on his, got this little purse.
And I was like, there might be a weapon.
So I grab it and I ripped it off him and I left it there.
And it turned out it had all the neighborhood mail in it.
And it was like, he was working on like check fraud
or whatever.
So I had to tell this story to the police that show up
and they go and they find my car
and they find the bag, thankfully.
And the fire department show up
and I'd taken all the skin off my,
I'd taken like a few toenails off
and all the skin off my knees and they hosed me down.
So Jujitsu appealed to me,
being able to like control somebody
and not letting them run off down the street with your mail.
One of the policemen is like,
hey man, I'm really looking forward
to that new show that's coming out.
It's just elementary, the Sherlock Holmes show that I did
was about to come out.
So yeah, it was pretty funny.
And the other policeman, he says,
he says, yeah, it was cool what you did,
but next time he says,
if I'm gonna run out to somebody,
I'm gonna make sure I've got my shoes and my gun.
Yeah, well, I'm just gonna say what's funny though
is what you found in that grappling account,
even though you had striking experience
is what we see on tape a lot now
with some of these law enforcement videos.
And it's sad, it's not to belittle anyone,
but it just shows the importance of training
and why grappling should be an integral part
of especially law enforcement,
because it is really hard just to hold down a human being.
I mean, I can't imagine,
I mean, I've had so much admiration for people
that are good at cuffing,
because it's hard as just holding a person down,
but then they get handcuffs on while you're holding them down.
That is so, so challenging.
So that's why it blows my mind when you hear,
some departments have no fitness standards,
they don't give them grappling training,
they shoot six shots once a year,
and then they check the box and they say they're good,
because God forbid that someone that then gets up
and goes and shoots up a school, that's unacceptable.
Yeah, and we have, especially in New York City here,
there's a lot of very,
people with mental illness going around,
and it's not their fault, dude.
And they can be scary.
And actually, a friend of mine that I train with,
from evolution, Brian Kemsley, he actually was on the news,
because he actually restrained a dude
that had grabbed someone's kid.
I mean, he was, you know, he was very ill, this dude,
but Brian was able, had some rudimentary jujitsu,
and he was able to hold this guy in back control
with a seatbelt for half an hour
before anybody came.
But he didn't have to knock his, you know,
he didn't have to like put his lights out,
and he didn't have to hurt the guy, you know what I mean?
I think that's important, yeah.
I just saw a video the other day,
I think it was in New York, I'm not sure, but someone,
I think the guy who was stealing
from one of the construction workers' cars,
and I've got that right, anyway,
they ended up like taping him to the scaffolding
until the cops came.
He's got one leg up in the air, another arm is over here.
I'm like, well, that works.
They used the tools they had.
Exactly.
Well, staying with the first responder professions,
I wanna get to, you know, your most recent projects,
and make sure we talk about that,
but before we do, the fire service.
So Bobby got in, you know, he's a very powerful story
of losing a friend in 9-11,
and that's what took him into the first responder profession.
Here you are now, you know, story, career,
when it comes to the world of acting.
What made you choose to start volunteering
as a firefighter in your community?
So I started visiting Fire Island with the family
when we moved to New York,
and it was introduced to me by my ex-wife,
and she's like, we would go there for the summer
and rent someone else's house,
or rent a room that someone else had, you know,
off somebody else, and it was the most peaceful place
I ever been in my life.
One of the most peaceful places,
and every time I go there, I just get this relaxation
just comes over me, and I'm right by the ocean,
and it's green, and there's no cars everywhere.
Everyone goes everywhere on bicycles.
There's a few cars for necessities,
certain people need them,
but the streets are very small little pavements, you know?
So it's this great community I fell in love with.
I've going there for like, you know, 10 years on holiday,
and eventually I was able to buy a little place there.
So I've been spending more and more time there,
and it's very, very special to me and to my family.
So the more I got into this community,
like the more people I get to know,
so I got to know a couple of people,
and the neighbors were on the fire department,
and then I keep, every time you go to the ferry,
I walk past the fire department,
and I see, oh, there's these signs there, say volunteer,
and the other big thing is,
there's an air horn system, right?
So when the call goes out for the department,
an air horn goes across the community,
and the air horn is right at the end of my street.
So I'd be sitting at home, you know, at night,
and I'd be thinking, well, I'm not doing anything.
I could help, it's amazing,
if I'm in an area, I'm not doing anything.
I don't go to the bar, I don't drink, you know,
I don't hang out in bars, so I'm ready to go.
I'm not that old.
So after a couple of years of walking past that sign
saying volunteer, I just thought,
and to be honest, I had always wanted to be a fireman.
I've always had that fantasy in my head,
and then I just managed to put two and two together.
We're like, we can do it.
You don't have to change your life.
You don't have to give up your job.
And so I looked into it about what the commitment was,
and they're like, no, it's just when you're here,
you're here, if you're available, you're available.
You're not required to be here
any amount of time specifically.
So I was like, well, I might fit with my job.
So I just walked in one day and asked,
and had got a bit of paperwork,
and then knowing a few people in the community,
they vote you in, they have a...
And I was sponsored in by
Captain Paul Brinkat.
He's a captain there, but he's a career FDNY guy,
and we have a few of those guys.
And I was seconded by another really nice guy, Steve,
who I'd met, he was a lieutenant there.
And next thing I know, I got voted in,
and then they're like, well, when can you go
and do the course?
And so I grew up almost next to a fire station
out of my sister's back window in Kingston.
We had, you could see the old practice towers,
the really British ones, you know,
that's just like a brick column going up about four floors.
And we'd always see them training on that.
And like any kids into being a fireman,
but with me, it was always like,
ah, and I've always been quite,
never really talk about this, but I've always been quite,
I went through a specific period of being kind of ashamed
about being an actor.
And if anyone's ever like, you know, what do you do?
It's like, I hate telling people
that that's what I do for a living,
because I think it's got a place in the world,
but I don't, I think it's overrated.
And everyone likes stories,
everyone wants to watch movies and television,
and that's fine.
And it's good.
I got over my kind of hatred of it, I suppose,
but I never really felt like that it was cool.
I know I was good at it, but I don't know,
it's never really been like, you know,
well, fucking good on you, man.
You're a fucking actor.
And then I was like, well, look, here's a chance
to like actually like do something really awesome,
because, and I know it's kind of,
I know that kind of sounds selfish,
and there's that dichotomy of, you know,
I can't say it's really like, I had to serve the community.
It's a two-way deal.
I get to do something that I absolutely
have secretly been obsessed with my whole life,
and see if I can do it, and see if I can meet the standard.
And the bonus is we get to help, you know?
I don't know, I think if I'm really honest,
it's like, it's a two-way thing for me, you know?
But that's the way the world works, right?
I mean, you know, it's like, so I walked in,
and honestly, it's like a couple of months later,
I'm going to the Suffolk County Fire Academy,
which I know Bobby talked about,
and I just felt like a million dollars, man,
going into that classroom,
and listening to those lectures, and doing it.
And then I discovered that,
because I kind of blew school off,
I had to do a lot of work,
and I kind of blew school off,
I couldn't really deal with school when I was there.
I did okay, but I coasted, man, and I hated it.
But I couldn't have been in that classroom too much, man.
It's like, and I discovered that if I'm,
if you're doing a subject that you care about,
and that you find interesting, like,
dude, I'll study fucking fire dynamics till,
you know, my head falls off.
You're like, what's today?
Oh, tactical ventilation?
Fuck yeah, you know, I couldn't get enough of it.
I've got the textbook right here, actually.
And I did really well on the classes,
and when it was practical days,
I mean, that's the super,
you don't get that many practical days
in volunteer in the academy,
because the whole course has to be structured
around people who have jobs.
So you can only go like Wednesday evenings
or Tuesday evenings, or we,
I was in the Sunday morning classes,
and, but I couldn't get enough of it.
And obviously you can only learn what you need to function
on a five month course.
You learn most of the stuff after that, you know,
on the job, right?
And going to drills and stuff like that.
But it's, yeah, I just, you know,
you could say I wish I'd done it before or whatever,
but maybe, but I think I've got a good 20 years in me.
I keep myself in pretty good shape.
So I think I've got a long time of being able to,
looking forward to being able to serve a community
that I genuinely love, that place.
So it's just, it was just perfect, perfect storm,
somewhere that I really care about.
Somewhere that I really care about getting to, you know,
so far just, you know, pretend to be this whatever,
but hopefully one day I'll be able to call my,
you know, feel properly like I,
like I know what I'm doing more, you know?
Couple of things.
Firstly, I totally relate.
I was a straight C student in school
and straight A student in fire school and paramedic school
because I got it and it made sense.
So I can totally relate there.
Also with the actor thing, I was kind of on the other side.
I was a full-time career firefighter,
but I did stunts on the side as kind of my side hustle
for the last 20 plus years.
And I remember I was doing this pirate dinner show in Orlando
and I remember coming off shift and we'd probably done,
you know, something of consequence, you know,
something significant that shift.
And then a few hours later, I go into the green room
and someone's queening out about their costume.
And I was just remember sitting there going,
it doesn't matter, you know what I mean?
And there are some phenomenal people that act,
that do stunts, you know, that are selfless
and incredible human beings.
Bobby obviously is one of them.
But it did kind of make me realize
that when I was playing stunt man,
I was the center of attention.
And this audience in the round was watching me, you know,
swinging from ropes and doing soul fights and stuff.
But when I was in uniform, it was about the other people.
It was about who we serve.
So that dichotomy is true.
And then to say, if serving others meant
I had to sit in a factory for 12 hours,
then yes, I would say this is purely selfless.
But when serving others means that you can also extricate
and go into burning buildings and, you know,
perform CPR and that stuff, 100% it is service,
but it is so gratifying as well.
So it definitely is a double edged sword in a positive way.
And, you know, like I think I don't really have a,
I have no problem with dangerous situations.
You know what I mean?
And I kind of, you know, not everyone's like that,
I suppose.
So why not?
Let's go, you know, why not?
And, you know, I think that's, you know,
if you don't have a problem with it, step up,
you know what I mean?
I, you know, there's that thing as well.
Like if you're gonna do a job, whether, you know,
acting or whatever, it's, you know,
I can really identify with taking it very seriously
and getting into it.
And for a long time I didn't,
because I've been doing acting for 40 years
and I can't maintain that kind of like, I don't know,
that they can't maintain like the method or whatever
for that long for me.
And so I used to be sort of really into it,
like passionate about it when I was younger.
And then I go like, ah, so now, now,
then it's fun and then it's like, so what?
And then I guess actually, you know,
having been in recovery, I got way more serious about it.
And I was like, I don't work as much, a lot,
because I've been able to sort of save, right?
So I don't have to work.
So when I do work, I take it pretty seriously
and I'm able to, but it's like,
you don't get upset about stuff.
You just take it seriously.
Like there's a difference, you know?
And I think it's okay to take something ridiculous,
like pretending to be another person very seriously
if you're gonna do it, it's okay.
But as long as you remember that that's what it is
and you're telling a story and it has its place
in society and in the world, but that's all it is.
But when I went on, I was leaving Fire Island to go to do,
you're okay, you can walk north.
As my son.
He's creeping.
Yeah, he's creeping.
I was leaving Fire Island to go and do this play
in the UK last summer.
And I'd been an active duty firefighter for a short while.
I'm just wishing for the pager to go off,
which is terrible, because I'm not wishing harm on anybody
or a district, but you know what I mean?
I do, 100%.
Everybody who's been there knows.
And it goes off.
I've just been watching, I've been watching this NBC
documentary about the LA Fire Department.
They had just come out and it was like,
action, action, action, action, action.
They're going, they're on calls, calls, calls.
And I'm like, wow, those guys are so busy.
That's amazing.
They have so much experience.
Oh my God, I've gotta go and do this play.
I'm gonna be away for a while.
And then the season's gonna be over.
And then it might be another year
until I get to do that shit.
And then the pager and the siren go off
and the pager talks to you, the volunteer pager.
It's like a one-way radio.
It says working structure fire.
And I'm like, I've just finished what,
I was like, what?
And I go outside my house, I can smell it,
because it's two blocks away
and I could smell smoke in the air.
My heart starts racing.
And we go and we get to this,
we get to all the brush between two houses
right next to the beach had caught fire, was going.
And it was just getting down the side
and under the side of the house,
the main house is on stilts.
And it was just getting there
and it had gone down the side and it was on his deck
and it was getting,
and it was melting the siding on the deck
and was just getting to the propane tank.
And we got to it before his house burned down
and nobody got hurt.
And it spread to the next yard,
but we got that as well from a different line.
And we stayed to make sure.
And just seeing, I kind of like, I was like,
because I think the first, we went, the first crew,
there was only three of us,
there was only two of us, I think with packs on.
And then we had the lieutenant and the captain.
And then another truck came with some other guys.
And I was just like, I just went to the hydrant,
I flushed the hydrant and fucking,
to help with the hookup there.
And then went on the hose line.
And we stayed for about two hours making the hotspots.
And they had the infrared cameras
and checking for the underground burning and all that stuff.
And the guy was so happy that his house,
because there was a breeze off the,
there was like a 10 mile an hour breeze,
which was absolutely deadly.
And in Fire Island, it's dry and you get that ocean breeze
and you can lose like half a block.
So it was just like the perfect thing,
but watching how amazingly professional the guys were.
And we had an engine come from Bobby's department
as mutual aid and they weren't needed.
And so everyone was proud because we're like,
the little country bumpkin.
But we handled it, you know?
And I just, I didn't sleep for hours.
It was just the greatest day of my life, dude.
I mean, no offense to my son there.
Again, people just think I'm like, we love our kids.
Because nobody got hurt.
The house didn't go, you know what I mean?
We got to it like,
the stilts were just charring.
And so it was the perfect thing.
Why was I telling that?
It's because it's funny.
Yeah, because I was about to go and then do this play.
You know?
But I got to go on a job.
I mean, I'd been called out before where we do,
we get called out for helicopter landings.
When, because that's the only way for someone
who gets seriously injured to get off the island.
So we get called out for those.
But I'd only been to like two landings
and then that was my first fire.
And I just, I'll tell you what, that's why I like doing,
I mean, it was just an incredible feeling
to have helped out like that.
And I was like, I would,
I would happily just do that for the rest of my life.
And kind of, you know, part of me wishes that, you know,
no, I mean, not really, because I'm a realist
and I realized that that's silly.
But honestly, if I could earn a living doing it,
I would do it probably 24 seven.
Yeah, it is amazing.
This is why, you know, there's people that volunteers do it,
people that are paid on call, there's career people
that arguably in a lot of countries work in very,
very poor conditions, unbeknownst to the average citizen,
but you know, they are worked into the ground,
but this is a calling, you know,
and I think it does balance us.
It was so nice.
I had it the other way, you know,
I got to do all the serious stuff
and then I got to run around as a pirate
or most recently get beaten up by Jason Bourne
in the stunt show, you know, so, you know,
you get to play the other end, but it is,
it's a beautiful feeling.
I think it's what's needed.
And this is why I talk about it.
With Bobby in the second conversation was volunteerism,
you know, and this time there's definitely places
around the country where maybe we shouldn't have volunteer
firefighters because it's a very affluent community
and they probably should have a full-time career department,
but, you know, I think volunteerism,
whether it's in the firefight uniform
or mentorship in the community, you know, whatever it is,
without getting political, because it's not,
but I haven't seen a lot of community
building from a lot of the people at the very top
of the political chain recently.
It's a lot of very divisive, you know,
rhetoric from both sides.
So I think volunteerism community, some of these,
you know, compassionate elements of humanity,
we need to refine that.
And I think it's awesome that you found it now at this age.
Yeah.
And, you know, another thing about those things is like,
especially in firehouses, they get very, very,
in our firehouse, so you've got,
it's a very broad spectrum and you have
all political views there.
And so all the people that are coming together to volunteer
or coming together, you get a look at the other point of view,
if you will, a lot more, because then you're not staying
in your own little group of people that all have the kind
of same opinions and you're kind of friend pool or whatever.
You're mixing with very different kinds of people
and you realize that you've got way more in common.
And I love that shit, you know what I mean?
I love those bridges in life between people,
between people of opposing political views.
And I love that common ground.
And I think there's a lot more to be had.
So the volunteer fire service is pretty amazing for that.
So we got some newer guys, younger guys.
It's funny, I put myself in that group of the newer,
younger guys and I'm fucking 51, but it's like, you know,
there's a sort of a whole new influx coming in.
And then you've got, you know, your traditional,
you know, blue collar older dudes.
Yeah.
Brilliant.
Well, I want to hit one more topic
and then go to some closing questions.
So I've been mindful of your time
and let you get back to your son.
But just before we go to those, you know, you had,
you know, a story career, as you said,
it was elementary as well.
Oh my goodness.
You had it, Lucy Liu.
Lucy Liu, thank you.
And she was literally my teenage crush as well.
So I don't know why, probably because of that.
Maybe my brain exploded just then.
So, you know, multiple seasons with that.
Talk to me about most recently,
what are some of the projects that you've already done
or you're about to work on that you're excited about?
Well, I mean, I was mentioning last summer,
I had to go to England to do this play
and I went to England and did a play over the summer,
a small theater in London called the Almeida Theater.
And it was a big success.
And so we got an offer to transfer to the West End,
which is, you know, like London to Broadway.
And so I'm going back there to do that in January.
And the dates got moved forward to the winter.
So I'm very happy because I'll be back in time
for fire season on the island.
So I'm really happy about that.
But so, yeah, and the theater for me is just,
my grandfather liked the theater more than films.
And I'm the same.
I, so it's the only time you can actually like,
I mean, acting can be fun, right?
Making a movie can be fun.
You go to some cool places,
but it's rare that you're doing a scene with someone
in a movie and then you go home and you're like,
fuck yeah, man, that was fucking like, wow,
we did some acting.
That's kind of not the vibe, right?
In the theater, you do the whole story
in front of an audience and our play is a lot of fun.
It's called A Mirror, this play.
It's by Samantha Holcroft.
It was a new play and it takes place under the auspice
of you're going to a wedding.
So the whole audience are wedding guests
and you've got wedding chairs there and an order of service.
And then we start and this police,
this undercover police officer gets up and leaves
as soon as we've started the service.
And then it turns out we are,
we just wanted to get rid of that person,
but we're actually here to do an illegal,
unlicensed play for the audience.
And that's why everybody's here.
And the play that takes, so we're in this world of,
it's not England and it's somewhere,
but it's a bit more authoritarian.
And it is, we then go and tell this story for the audience.
And there's a lot of audience participation in it.
A couple of times we think we're going to be found out.
So we have to go back to the wedding scenario,
but it's actually very funny and it addresses
topics of censorship and truth and propaganda.
So loved in this play.
So when you're doing the theater,
you're doing it in front of things
and you make an audience laugh and you can freak them out
and you can get them scared and do all that stuff.
And then when they appreciate it and they love it
and that the whole place is like buzzing
and it's terrifying, every night it's like nerve wracking.
Are you going to get this right?
Are you going to get that wrong?
And then you can shove a performance down
an audience's throat and it's a buzz.
So it's like, you don't get that anywhere else,
I don't think.
So I'm much more into doing that.
So I'm really happy to be able to go back and do that.
And I'm all about enjoying it again
and enjoying the work again.
It's the best way to do it, it's theater.
And I don't know if people enjoy going to the theater or not.
I think there's nothing worse than bad theater.
That's just fucking terrible.
But leave at the interval, if you don't like it, just leave.
I shouldn't say that, but it's good.
But when theater's good and when it's done well
and it's a good play and it should be an electric night,
and you should laugh your ass off,
you should experience horror
and have all of those emotions can be involved in it.
And I just love that.
And I love making an audience happy
in the immediacy of it, you know what I mean?
I do, because when I did stunts, it was always live shows,
but I was on the, when I say I was on,
I was a glorified extra playing a firefighter
in the World Trade Center movie.
So I got to see Oliver Stone, massive production,
and then did a couple of, another extra one
on a television show across from Jordan.
And then I was in a History Channel pirate TV show
where I had, again, an awful, awful acting performance
wearing a Brian May wig.
I don't know if they gave perms in the pirate days,
but this wig certainly had it.
This guy did.
This guy definitely had it.
It was the sea air.
I feel a shanty coming along.
But it was interesting because again, like you said,
I got to see, all right, do a take, cut,
and then in the Oliver Stone one,
I mean just hours and hours and hours of waiting around,
then you shoot a scene and then reset,
and then the actors finally come on and they do a line
and they go back to their trailer and you're like,
oh my God, versus for example, that pirate show,
an hour and a half of nonstop acting, singing,
stunts, swings, sword fights.
If you had the right combination,
because of the cast change like every day,
so the right people on stage,
and then the right audience off, you know,
actually in the audience, it was amazing.
And you would absolutely get that high
because if you nailed the sword fights
and everyone oohed and ahed
and the high falls and the gun battles,
you know, it was a complete connection
inside that building.
And I didn't ever, you know,
even though I got a short exposure to it
when it came to being on set,
you just do it and then you reset again.
So I can, I know it's a stunt version
of what you're talking about, but I can relate.
Yeah, and then, you know,
if you're making a movie or whatever,
and then it's like years later,
people tend to go, oh, it's a great movie or whatever.
And that can go on and on for forever
and ever and ever, and it's great,
because, you know, you'll get in a cab
and a cab driver or like a movie that, you know,
did or whatever, that's cool, it's great.
But if you're talking about like personally having fun,
doing your job, you can't beat the theater,
can't beat it.
And I guess I'm just looking for a thrill,
what with that and, you know, volunteering.
So, I mean, you know, there's a pattern emerging here
with that. Absolutely.
Well, one more thing,
because we talked about your grandfather's role
in James Bond.
What have you heard?
Who do you think is gonna be the next James Bond?
And have you considered trying to be part
of that production so you can do this full circle
from two generations ago?
Well, that ship is, the Bond ship has sailed
for this 51 year old.
But I think, I actually like, you know,
so I was doing this play and Michael Ward was in it.
You know who Michael Ward is?
Michael Ward was in Top Boy.
You might know him from Top Boy.
I don't know if you saw that, but a lot of people.
Don't think I did actually.
I'll write his name down there.
So Michael is a brilliant young black actor from London.
And he's a great actor.
Did you see Empire of Light?
He was in that, that's Sam Mendes movie with Olivia Colman.
He's a terrific actor and I was joking with him.
I was like Michael Ward for Bond,
but I kind of think he'd be really good.
And I think they could use a black James Bond as well.
Yeah, I mean, absolutely.
It's funny when they start trying to get female James Bonds
in there, it's like, okay, it is James Bond.
We've got to draw a line somewhere.
But I've been knowing British, I mean,
we're all colors and creeds.
So he could be any ethnicity whatsoever.
He's a terrific actor.
And you know, a really good guy too.
So he'd be my, my vote would go for Michael.
Brilliant.
I'm looking at him now.
I think Top Boy rings a bell, but I'm not sure.
But what about the M-roll?
He doesn't have to be young.
So what if you end up on that?
I got my eye on that.
Cause like there's no age limit with that one.
So I've got all the time in the world.
There we go.
I know.
All right, well then quick closing questions.
The very first question,
is there a book that you love to recommend?
All books, plural.
It can be related to our discussion today
or completely unrelated.
Oh my gosh.
I don't have a go-to recommender.
I read a lot of thrillers.
I can recommend the Harry Bosch series
for people who haven't read those.
The Bosch series by Michael Connolly are really good.
I've read 19 of them in the last two years.
Wow.
If you really like how detective work actually works
and the sort of,
the legwork and the monotony of it,
monotony is the wrong word because the books are great.
But the first one,
and they started writing in the eighties.
So it goes from pre-internet all the way through.
And Los Angeles is a real character in those books.
So I love those books.
He's a Vietnam veteran who was a tunnel rat.
And then he ends up on the homicide bureau
in the robbery homicide division.
And they're just great.
I did read recently,
I'm gonna give a plug here, Sean Rogers.
Sean Buck Rogers, he's a former Green Beret.
And he's got a YouTube channel, he's getting really popular.
But he just wrote his second book about,
his first book was sort of his story
from a traumatic childhood to becoming a Green Beret,
to then becoming a police officer.
And then he wrote a book, his book's just come out,
called Better Broken.
And he asked me to take a look at it before it came out.
And I did, and it was amazing.
And it's about how to use the so-called problems
in your life and if people with traumatic backgrounds,
how that's actually can be an advantage to you in life.
But he actually gives practical advice
on how to do that.
It's not just a theory and conjecture, it's a great book.
Beautiful, yeah, I've talked about that a lot recently
because I follow him, I recognize that name.
So I already follow him on Instagram,
that someone need to reach out,
especially if he's a police officer as well.
But that's what's missing
with the mental health conversation.
He's another Jiu-Jitsu guy as well.
Oh, this is even better.
But yeah, that traumatic road aside,
that gives you hope then.
It's not like, oh, well, I'm gonna be a police officer
and I guess I'd be able to deal with it
if I take these pills or whatever.
Like no, when you go through and come out the other end,
that becomes resilience, that becomes a superpower.
And now you're also a beacon of light for other people
that are going through it and they see that you've navigated.
It doesn't mean that every day is flawless,
like you're still gonna have your struggles,
but it always reminds me of that.
I forget the term they use, but the Japanese,
when they fix the broken pottery with the gold glue,
that's what it is.
And I think we need to talk about that.
My friend Ben Timberlake, who'd written another terrific book
I'll recommend called High Risk, and that's he was a,
he was in 2-1 SAS, Reserve SAS Regiment,
and then had a lot of problems with drugs and stuff
and came out the other side, has this amazing story.
His book is terrific, but it's a little bit more
than just a book, but it's terrific,
but it looks at a lot of neuroscience and brain chemistry.
And the reason the book is so great is because it's telling
you like what is going on with your brain
while all these things are happening.
But he's in that book, he says,
a lot of people talk about post-traumatic stress,
post-traumatic stress disorder,
but they don't really talk about post-traumatic growth,
which is what you're saying, and it's a huge thing,
and a very, very powerful tool if you can work through
all that stuff and get to the other side.
Absolutely.
Yeah, those are two books everyone can check out.
Brilliant, well, thank you for that.
Same kind of question, what about films
and or documentaries that you love?
I'm a documentary machine, so.
I don't know.
Gosh, films, oh, man, I don't know,
like that's just too much, because I just watch a lot.
I send my kid to school, I go training,
if I'm not working, I go training, I come home,
I make dinner, I watch stuff.
So I get through a whole, I've got a bunch of things.
I just rewatched True Detective last week,
the original one, I think it's,
with Woody Harrelson and Matthew McConaughey,
if you haven't seen that, you need to check that out,
because it's one of the best detective dramas ever made.
So there's that.
Sicario is one of my favorite films,
because I'm such a boy.
I just rewatched that the other day,
because Josh was on the show twice now,
but the first time we became friends,
they ended up writing the foreword to my book,
which was mind blowing.
But yeah, I mean, that again, super humble,
it's unknown to most people that he volunteers
as a wildland firefighter for,
I think it was either two or three seasons.
But again, like yourself, he's not front and center
with all the paparazzi and stuff, he just,
he's an artist, and if you look at his writing,
the fact that he even got it between the covers of my book
is mind blowing, and I always joke as well,
he read it on the audio book, and I'm like, yeah,
so Josh Brolin, one of the best voices in Hollywood,
narrates the foreword for my book,
and then my fucking squeaky ass reads the West.
That's the brotherhood there, brotherhood in action.
Yeah, exactly that, exactly.
I mean, I was no one on his radar,
and he put his name to that.
But yeah, but I mean, back to Sicario though.
I like that film even more now, you've told me that.
So what about documentaries?
You say you watch a lot of them,
any ones that really resonated with you?
See, I always freeze when I get asked questions like this,
I'm sorry, I think it's like 20,
and as soon as we're not on the recording anymore.
Oh my gosh, I mean, I went through it,
so I actually have written a screenplay,
I've actually adapted that book,
High Risk I was talking about,
I've adapted it for the screen.
And when I was doing that,
I watched a lot of combat documentaries,
and I sort of went into a rabbit hole with those
for years and years and years actually.
So I know a lot of good ones,
if that's your jam,
but I think Brotherhood Life and the FDNY
is one of my favorites documentaries for obvious reasons.
I don't know, I know you can see it on YouTube,
but there are a lot of really good FDNY documentaries
that I just love.
And that one deals with a lot of old school guys,
I get confused with them,
because I think there's a,
some of the guys from these documentaries
cross-pollinating to other ones,
there's a one about Rescue 2, I think, that's really good,
and some of the guys from that are in Brotherhood,
but it's really about the workings of a New York firehouse
and what it means to the guys to work there
and be there for each other,
and the kind of work that they do,
and the lifestyle,
and the filmmaker really lives with them,
and you get a really good look at those guys
who are gonna come and help out,
who are gonna come and help you
when you're having the worst day of your life.
Yeah, I've actually got that on DVD, funny enough,
and it's fantastic.
Well, speaking of great people,
is there a person that you'd recommend to come
on this podcast as a guest
to speak to the first responders, military,
and associate your professions with the world?
Ben Timberlake.
Brilliant, if you can help me make that happen,
we will do it, I would love to have him on.
I can.
Fantastic.
He's a really good dude, but yeah.
He's beautiful.
He'd be a genuinely interesting guest,
as opposed to this guy.
No, it's his thing, it's the humility again.
It's been an amazing conversation.
But one more area before it,
make sure everyone knows where to find you online.
What do you do to decompress?
Jiu-jitsu.
And jiu-jitsu, I play video games quite a lot.
I'm a bit of a nerd.
Especially during the pandemic,
I went deep into a war zone with a group of friends,
because we just put our headsets on
and then we're hanging out with each other,
even though we're shut in our own houses.
I play video games, I read books,
I do jiu-jitsu, and I watch TV.
Brilliant.
Well, very last thing then, if people wanna follow you,
reach out to you, whatever it is,
where are the best places to find you online?
You can find me on Instagram only.
That's the only jam I am.
I deleted my Twitter years ago,
after it was making me angry 15 times a day.
So I'm like, no more.
So you can search me.
There's one with a blue tick and that's me.
But yeah, but don't message me,
because I won't see it.
Well, Johnny, I wanna say thank you so much.
It's been an amazing conversation.
Like I said, I truly am humbled
that you chose to come on,
having done simply one before six years ago.
So, but it's so important,
as I mentioned over and over again,
it's these human stories behind these kind of
and I use facade in a positive way, but the part that we see,
the front facing part of people,
whether it's a soldier or a police officer
or an actor or a singer,
but to hear the kind of human side
and the highs and the lows that we all experience,
I think is so important.
And the fact that you volunteered in the profession,
the love of us listening adore, adds even more value.
So I wanna thank you so, so much
for being so generous with your time today.
Thank you very much for including me.
I'm so happy to be here.
I'm so happy to be here to be able to be here
and to be able to be here to be able to be here
and to be able to be here to be here today.
So thank you so much for your time today.
Thank you very much for including me in your conversation,
and I'm only starting out on my journey
as I hope to one day be considered more of a first responder.
And that is truly, I know is gonna be the highlight
of my life.
So thanks for having me.
Thank you.