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We don't have any worries.

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It's rock solid.

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And we were facing like kind of maybe west, I think,

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to be honest.

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So we were early in the day.

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I was like, it's not really going to heat up that much.

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It's fine.

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But then when we got way up high to the top of the pass,

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the pass is two things.

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It's higher, so it's colder.

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But also it's a wind tunnel.

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And so the wind always gets funneled through there

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and kept the snow from getting as hot.

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So we didn't have that bomber seven to five inches across.

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And then we got down to like two to three inches across.

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And the skiers who were able to do kick turns,

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they were staying on top.

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But because my crew wasn't so good at kick turns,

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we were walking in crampons with skis on the back.

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And we were punching through that eggshell crust.

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And we hit the old snow layer and got avalanched.

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Welcome to All Aspects, a podcast where we explore, discuss,

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and celebrate adventure culture and outdoor lifestyle.

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It is our mission to educate, inform, and entertain

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our fellow adventurers about the inherent risks that surround

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us every time we go outside to play.

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And to provide you with the knowledge and tools

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to help you do the things you love the most

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and the safest way possible.

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All Aspects is brought to you by Aspect Abbey.

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Aspect Abbey is on a mission to save lives

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by making avalanche safety simple.

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It is the only app that tells you where the high and low risk

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zones are for today's avalanche danger.

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With a suite of built-in tools like forecast verification,

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slope meter, and gear checklist, Aspect Abbey

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is the new safety standard for avalanche risk management.

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Remember, there are dozens of apps

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that get you into the back country,

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but there is only one that's designed to bring you home.

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And that's Aspect Abbey.

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Go to aspectabbey.com to learn more or download the app

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to start your 30-day free trial.

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Thank you, Aspect Abbey, for making this show possible.

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And thank you for listening.

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All right, let's get to the show.

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Welcome back to All Aspects.

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Jeff, today it's just you and me.

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Nice to be back with just a Dave and Jeff show.

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And this week, I wanted to talk about spring

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skiing safety and risk management because we,

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well, it's kind of ironic.

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I just know it eight inches outside and supposed

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to snow all weekend.

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But before that, we were in a huge corn cycle.

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We were getting like 45 degree days,

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which was really, really nice.

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But it does lead to a whole new set of problems and issues,

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things that we need to keep track of and that sort of thing.

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So I figured this week it'd be good for us

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to cover ski touring and playing the back country

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in the spring.

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Maybe we could do a little bit of myth busting about snow safety

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and that kind of stuff.

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And then maybe give people some actionable,

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some action items moving forward, easy things

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that they can keep their eyes out for, et cetera.

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How's that sound to you?

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That sounds great.

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Yeah, oftentimes in life, our perception

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lacks behind reality.

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It takes a while.

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And we're in this weird situation right now where it's been,

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this is probably going to go down as the hottest winter

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on record throughout Colorado by a lot.

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And like you said, this last week,

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we were in a serious corn cycle with seven inches of melt

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freeze crust we were riding on.

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But that's only on the sunny aspects,

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like south and southwest.

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And if you go to the shady aspects, particularly in Colorado,

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when you're on a steep slope like double black diamond, 30

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to 45 degrees, it's not getting that solar gain.

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And in Colorado, it's all about the sun

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because it's so high and dry that if you're at, say, 11,000

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feet and above, and you're on steep northeast, north

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and northwest, it's going to stay cold, dry snow

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until maybe the last week of April.

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And then finally, if this is the steep north facing slope,

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finally the sun, here we go, finally the sun

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gets high enough in the sky that the solar radiation can

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actually affect the snowpack.

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Certainly on east, south, and west,

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it'll have a big effect.

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South and southwest are the most sun affected.

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So it's like a tale of two cities right now.

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You know, a lot of the steep slopes, the steeper the slope,

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the more the sun hits directly.

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And if it's low angle south facing,

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it's more indirect and bounces off.

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So those steep, low elevation, mid elevation slopes

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are going to corn up the fastest.

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But if the sun's on the other side and it's north facing,

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it's the opposite.

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The shallow, the flats and shallow slopes get more sun.

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You get a little sun crust.

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And then the steep ones are going to stay dry.

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So basically what we've got is our persistence slab problem

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is not really going away.

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It's kind of a bummer.

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And it's still being skier triggered on the aspects

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that don't have a lot of corn.

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Yeah, and can we just really quickly,

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can we just kind of explain the breakdown of when

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we are skiing on corn?

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What we want to be looking for, right?

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Because there is, well, especially here, right,

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on that south facing, well, let's make this even more

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specific.

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So if we're going to go corn harvesting, right,

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and we're going to stick to those south facing,

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southwest kind of slopes that you're talking about,

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we need to be really mindful that that ice bridge that we're

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standing on the whole way up the face is thick enough

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to support us, even if with like two inches of slush or like

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corn on top of it, right?

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Can you kind of explain why that is and how that works?

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Sure.

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Let's say there's some weak layers underneath.

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Yeah.

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And we're riding on top of seven inches of frozen corn,

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and only the top two inches have melted,

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and it's perfect skiing conditions,

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and we've got five inches of ice that

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are keeping us from impacting any old snow

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layers that are underneath.

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OK, and that scenario is pretty optimal.

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And it's much different from, hey,

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we've only got a two inch eggshell freeze.

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And that happened this week where instead of having clear

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nights, we had a little micro storm come in,

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and it dropped about an inch or two,

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and it was cloudy all night.

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So it's like keeping a warm blanket on the snow pack

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so that you don't get the cooling going out into space.

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I'm going to stay away from jargon,

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but that's the gist of it.

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And so we had a micro freeze, and it melted super quickly.

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And Frank and I were out, and we were just, I don't know,

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we got like a dozen massive collapses.

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And in some places, we'd sink all the way through the snow

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pack if we were next to a trigger point,

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like a sagebrush and stuff like that.

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And then as we got higher up in the mountain,

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the snow pack got deeper instead of being like 70

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cms of kind of wet rotten facets with an eggshell freeze.

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It was like a proper snow pack at like a meter 20,

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and then even deeper.

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And that lessened and lessened and lessened.

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And so we want to be very careful that we know,

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one, how thick is this ice bridge we're on that's protecting

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us from the weak layers underneath?

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And two, do we have weak layers underneath?

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And so in different snow climates,

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like if you're in the Arctic, like Norway or Iceland,

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they can get rain every month of the year.

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And so that snow pack is often ice hardness or pencil

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hardness.

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And so quite often in the Arctic,

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you'll be like waiting for it to soften the corn,

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and it softens, and it never gets dangerous,

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or it never gets too mushy, because you're

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riding on top of concrete.

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So the whole snow pack, two meters,

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is dense, basically almost ice or completely ice.

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And if you contrast that to what Frank and I experienced

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earlier this week, we were on a really shallow snow pack,

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so 70 to 120 centimeters, where faceting and sugar crystals

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are the dominant forms.

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And so if that's the case, you've got to hit and get,

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as we say in Vermont, you've got to get on it

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and get off of there before your bridge starts to melt,

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because your bridge is over a whole lot of garbage.

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Whereas contrast that in Iceland or Norway,

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where it's just rock solid underneath,

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and you just wait for it to soften,

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and then you can ski corn for the next eight hours

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on the same slope, and often there's

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no deterioration in stability or ski quality.

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And you're like, oh, this is so weird.

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And so if you look through the accidents, particularly

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in a continental climate, like a dry, low snow climate,

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like Colorado experiences, you'll

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often see springtime wet slab avalanches,

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where the water trickles down until it hits the weak layer,

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and boom, the wet slab triggers.

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And it's a little tricky when you're

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coating an accident, for instance.

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Was this an old snow problem, or was it a wet snow problem?

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And you're like, well, the water trickled through,

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caused the snowpack to weaken.

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But when it hit the old snow problem,

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that's where it really took off.

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So it's the water weakening the bonds,

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but when it hits the old snow problem, it's really bad.

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And if you look through the accidents,

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you'll often see that pattern, where it trickled down

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until it hit the old snow problem,

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and that resulted in the fatal avalanche.

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Yeah, and also I wanted to touch on something you said about,

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you and Frank, as you were going higher,

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you're seeing the conditions change, right?

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And you and I were talking about this the other day,

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just because, say, everything from 9,000 to 10,000 feet

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is awesome corn skiing, and has that nice 7-inch ice bridge,

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if that slope doesn't mean that it's that same thickness

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from 10,000 to 11,000 or 11,000 to 12,000,

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like you have to actively be checking on that crust,

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that surface bridge.

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I think you were saying you were talking to some people

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that were like, yeah, we're going to go ski corn up

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at like 12,500 feet, and you're like, north basic.

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You're like, what?

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00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:09,800
No, that's not how that works at all.

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So just because it's spring doesn't mean,

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if anything, now it makes the snowpack a little more,

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it's all rounded, right?

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You get different seasons, depending

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on what your aspect is.

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So it's like, yeah.

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It is hyper variable, because oftentimes, south and southwest

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is phenomenal corn skiing and really well developed,

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whereas you could go around to the north side today

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and find 22 inches of cold smoke.

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And then you're like, oh, wow, it's hyper variable.

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So trying to keep a mental model in your head

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for snow stability is incredibly difficult.

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And this might help visualize it for my fruit bowl.

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So this is like below tree line, the 11 near tree line,

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and this is above tree line.

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So let's say we have southeast right now.

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So below tree line, southeast is really well corned up.

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And then at mid elevation, it's pretty well corned up,

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but at high elevation, not really.

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It's like a thin breakable crust.

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And for a while, that was on the persistent slab problem

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still, and I think they've trimmed it back in most places

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in Colorado on Alpine southeast.

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So that's like 11 to 12,000 feet above tree line.

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So it's really important to remember,

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you've got the elevation bands, and then you

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got the different aspects.

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And that is going to dramatically change.

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And maybe a story to illustrate that is I had a near death

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experience in Italy in the Ortler range,

256
00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:53,560
and that's exactly what happened.

257
00:12:53,560 --> 00:12:56,880
Below tree line, full springtime conditions.

258
00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,720
I think this was the last week in April, something like that.

259
00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:02,280
Fully developed corn.

260
00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:06,640
Mid elevation, like near and above tree line,

261
00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:10,760
south facing was corned up really well.

262
00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:16,240
But then in the Alpine, egg shell freeze.

263
00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:18,240
So when we started skinning up the slope,

264
00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,120
I dug with my ice axe three times,

265
00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,240
and it was 7 to 5 inches of frozen corn,

266
00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,000
and we were crampawning up.

267
00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,920
And I was like, we don't have any worries.

268
00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:30,520
It's rock solid.

269
00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:34,640
And we were facing like kind of maybe west, I think,

270
00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:35,640
to be honest.

271
00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:36,840
So we were early in the day.

272
00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,280
I was like, it's not really going to heat up that much.

273
00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:40,200
It's fine.

274
00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:45,040
But then when we got way up high to the top of the pass,

275
00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,400
the pass is two things.

276
00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,360
It's higher, so it's colder.

277
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,880
But also, it's a wind tunnel.

278
00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,000
And so the wind always gets funneled through there

279
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,920
and kept the snow from getting as hot.

280
00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,760
So we didn't have that bomber 7 to 5 inches of crust.

281
00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:05,440
And then we got down to like 2 to 3 inches of crust.

282
00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,080
And the skiers who were able to do kick turns,

283
00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,040
they were staying on top.

284
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,800
But because my crew wasn't so good at kick turns,

285
00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,600
we were walking in crampons with skis on the back.

286
00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,920
And we were punching through that eggshell crust.

287
00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:25,520
And we hit the old snow layer and got avalanched.

288
00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:27,800
So that is a really dramatic illustration

289
00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:29,640
of how I almost got the job.

290
00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:33,760
Because I didn't have a good mental model predicting ahead.

291
00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:37,680
The snowpack where I am is going to be dramatically different.

292
00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:43,160
1,500 vert, 1,800 vert above me because of the wind

293
00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:44,800
and because of the elevation.

294
00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:49,720
It's going to be significantly colder, much less corn.

295
00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:51,600
And that should have changed.

296
00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,960
Or I should have adapted what we were doing, either turn around.

297
00:14:55,960 --> 00:15:00,120
But we were so close to home, I was like, oh, that'd be fine.

298
00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:01,960
Everybody else is trudged across the slope.

299
00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:02,960
It'll be great.

300
00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,200
And the other part of the group was ahead of us.

301
00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,360
And it was the last five minutes of a week-long tour.

302
00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:12,080
And then we would noodle powder down to the hotel for beers.

303
00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,600
And I was just like, I'm so tired.

304
00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:17,280
It's always the last, like what?

305
00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,440
You always get in an accident at the like a mile away from home.

306
00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:21,840
I could smell the barn.

307
00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,800
And the other half of the group with the other guide

308
00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:26,680
was just ahead of us five minutes.

309
00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,080
And they had no idea we got avalanched.

310
00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:32,240
And they had already passed through.

311
00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:33,880
And I was like, oh, it'll be fine.

312
00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:35,320
I was pushed through.

313
00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,280
Well, this time it wasn't fine.

314
00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:41,240
And so when the conditions change, our actions need to change.

315
00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:42,680
We need to adapt.

316
00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:44,120
And I failed too.

317
00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:46,880
And it almost cost me everything.

318
00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:51,680
Well, so that's actually kind of a good, I guess not really

319
00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:52,200
a segue.

320
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:58,000
But when we are, you could kind of use the mental model.

321
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,320
Like the further you go up, the thinner this sort of bridge

322
00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,120
is going to get in general.

323
00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:02,600
Yeah.

324
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,720
But that's why we want to, you know,

325
00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,320
like we went out on a tour last week.

326
00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,760
And we were cutting out squares the whole way up just

327
00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:13,760
to check to see what we're dealing with.

328
00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,360
And as we went up, it actually went from down.

329
00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,120
Granted, we were in the flats when we did our first, you know,

330
00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:20,400
whole, we were filming.

331
00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:21,960
So we were kind of doing a show and tell.

332
00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:25,360
But it was about that thick, maybe two to three inches.

333
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:29,960
And then by the time we got up into the glades, which obviously

334
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,480
much steeper like you were describing,

335
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,080
we were on like a seven, almost eight inch block

336
00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:36,560
that you were pulling out of the ground.

337
00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:40,560
So like that in our mind is like, OK, cool.

338
00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:42,400
Not only is that a really good ice bridge,

339
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,320
but it's actually increasing as we're going up this face,

340
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,040
which is a great sign for us.

341
00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,440
But I want to flip flop of that.

342
00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,080
So like, because we just said two conflicting things, right?

343
00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:56,960
Because like in general, the higher you go,

344
00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,760
the thinner that bridge gets.

345
00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:04,160
And less you're on a south face where you're like monitoring it.

346
00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:05,720
And it's getting that direct sunlight.

347
00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,480
And then ideally, as you get higher and that sun is just

348
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,320
beating down on it, then it's going to be thicker.

349
00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:13,040
Is that sort of a general rule?

350
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,360
Or what can we take away from that?

351
00:17:16,360 --> 00:17:19,440
So here's where we were.

352
00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:21,960
We were in the mid elevation bands.

353
00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,760
We were below tree line and near tree line.

354
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:27,120
And so it was more.

355
00:17:27,120 --> 00:17:31,640
I think we topped out at 10,500 feet, something like that.

356
00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:35,280
So we were not up in the alpine.

357
00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:37,800
And it's very sheltered from the wind.

358
00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:45,880
So the dominant factor was the slope angle, not the elevation.

359
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,520
And so when the sun was coming in on the flats,

360
00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:55,640
most of that radiation hits at an oblique angle and bounces off.

361
00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:57,160
And then we started climbing.

362
00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,920
And it gets ever so gently steeper.

363
00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:01,880
And we were like 19 degrees.

364
00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:04,920
And we got like five inches of frozen corn.

365
00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,600
And then when we got up to like 29, 30 degrees,

366
00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,840
the hill got steeper, even though we were going higher.

367
00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:15,800
And so it's a little bit cooler during the daytime.

368
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,240
The slope angle trumped the modest elevation gain.

369
00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:20,600
Because we were only climbing.

370
00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,200
I think we climbed 1,400 vertical feet, something like that.

371
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:24,320
Not that much.

372
00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:25,800
Maybe 1,300.

373
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:30,560
So then it was the slope angle facing southwest.

374
00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:34,280
And it was like about 30 to 40 degrees on the steep stuff

375
00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:35,280
we were skiing.

376
00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:37,560
And that stuff gets cooked.

377
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:39,600
And that's exactly why we went there.

378
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:44,080
Steep southwest facing below treeline, near treeline,

379
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:45,680
was the sweet spot.

380
00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,760
We didn't have to tangle with the persistence slab problem.

381
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:53,840
Primo riding conditions, really low stress, high rewards.

382
00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:54,880
Tight.

383
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,560
Hey, so I want to talk about like a term

384
00:18:57,560 --> 00:18:59,600
that's thrown around a lot with spring skiing, which

385
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,320
is isothermic.

386
00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:03,560
Can you?

387
00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,160
I like, just can be fully honest.

388
00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:08,320
That term means nothing to me.

389
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:09,480
I don't know what.

390
00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:11,840
People start throwing that around and I like glaze over.

391
00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:12,720
So can you?

392
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:13,840
Can you either?

393
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:15,800
I fucking hate jargon.

394
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,480
Because if you explain it to me, it's like.

395
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:19,280
Explain it to me?

396
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,080
It's like we're excluding people from the conversation

397
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:22,960
by using jargon.

398
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:23,520
Yes.

399
00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:25,200
So let's break it down to the roots.

400
00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:31,520
Iso means equal, thermo, thermal, thermic, temperature.

401
00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,640
So they're saying the snowpack is all the same temperature.

402
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,640
And if you think about it, you're like, OK,

403
00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:40,920
so the earth is putting out heat.

404
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,120
It's at like 48 degrees, give or take,

405
00:19:43,120 --> 00:19:44,760
depending on where you are.

406
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,680
And that heat goes through the snowpack.

407
00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:53,120
And if you have a thin snowpack, less than a meter and a half,

408
00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:56,440
it causes the vapor to move in weird ways.

409
00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,320
And it causes it to maybe be more vertically oriented,

410
00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:00,160
you could say.

411
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:01,920
And so if you put your hands over your mouth,

412
00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:06,880
like Darth Vader, like Luke, I'm your father.

413
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,320
So that's the water vapor.

414
00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,320
And it will form facets, form diamonds.

415
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,480
And those do not want to hang out together.

416
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,560
It's like the worst party you've ever been to.

417
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:18,440
Like nobody is close.

418
00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:19,800
It's cold.

419
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:21,520
There's no dancing going on.

420
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,080
There's no connections being formed.

421
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,840
You're like, it's an undersold concert.

422
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:28,000
Say it again.

423
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:29,920
It's an undersold concert.

424
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:31,200
Yeah, those are the worst.

425
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:32,760
Nobody's there.

426
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:38,360
Contrast that to a deeper, warmer snowpack over 1.5 meters.

427
00:20:38,360 --> 00:20:41,200
And particularly if you're in place like the Northwest

428
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:46,040
or Sierras, it's going to be a lot warmer than Colorado.

429
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,080
You don't get minus 20, minus 30 very often.

430
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,240
And so in that case, it's like the best party you've ever been at.

431
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,080
And people are hugging each other.

432
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,200
Social bonds are being formed.

433
00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,400
There's a lot of moisture and sweat,

434
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,760
saliva being passed back and forth and other stuff.

435
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,000
And people are tight.

436
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:10,680
And that's when they form up tight bonds and you get rounding.

437
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:15,560
And when the snowpack is closer to being the same temperature,

438
00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,800
the moisture of the water vapor goes side to side.

439
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,760
And we lock elbows like red rover, red rover.

440
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:22,960
Send that facet over.

441
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:24,520
We're going to stomp them.

442
00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:28,480
And so that's what's happening in the springtime on all aspects

443
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,080
as it gets warmer.

444
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,040
But it happens quicker on the sunny aspects

445
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,960
than it does on the shady aspects.

446
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,680
So our mental model, it's really tricky.

447
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:43,480
You're like, OK, things are trending towards rounding.

448
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,520
So those facets in the snowpack are

449
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:47,600
starting to actually have a good time

450
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:52,000
and become socially engaged and bond together.

451
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,360
But you have to be careful because you might just

452
00:21:54,360 --> 00:21:58,760
have a really shallow snowpack all winter that's just rotten

453
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:03,040
sugar with a very thin eggshell freeze over the top.

454
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:04,520
And you're like, oh, it's springtime.

455
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:05,240
We're good to go.

456
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:06,760
And you're like, oh, not so fast.

457
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:08,160
Easy there, cowboy.

458
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,240
You might have a good enough freeze

459
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,520
to be low danger in the morning.

460
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:16,040
But very quickly as that bridge melts,

461
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:21,400
let's say we've got a 5-inch bridge over garbage.

462
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,160
As long as you're on a couple inches of ice,

463
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,160
and I can't give you an exact number,

464
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,400
but you're doing pretty well.

465
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:29,840
But this is where it gets really tricky.

466
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,320
As you ski lower down the mountain,

467
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:35,320
the snowpack is getting thinner.

468
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,480
It's probably got more facets in it.

469
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,640
That's what we experienced this week.

470
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:45,840
As we got lower, it went from 150, 120, 70.

471
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,440
And when you hit 70, it was just like garbage trap door

472
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,000
and crashing through.

473
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:55,120
And at night, we didn't get as much of a freeze

474
00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:56,440
because it was a little bit lower.

475
00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:00,240
When the clouds come in, higher elevations

476
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,600
are going to be colder with a better freeze.

477
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:04,520
And lower elevations are going to be warmer

478
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:08,120
with a less freeze when you have clouds or snow.

479
00:23:08,120 --> 00:23:12,000
And so you could be skiing this big 3,000-plus foot line

480
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:13,680
and be like, oh, let's do an extra lap up top.

481
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,160
The corn's awesome.

482
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,400
And you're riding on two meters of snow

483
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,520
that's predominantly rounded and well bonded and really dense.

484
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:22,200
And then you're like, OK, it's time to go home.

485
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:23,480
It's getting too mushy.

486
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:25,160
And then you're like, oh, shit.

487
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,000
We have overstayed our welcome at this party.

488
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:29,960
And we are crashing the party.

489
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,760
And we are trap dooring to our knees, to our boot tops,

490
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:40,200
to our thighs in wet rotten facets with a tiny rickety.

491
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:46,920
Think of a rope bridge in the jungle with rotten slats

492
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:48,560
and your foot breaks through.

493
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,040
And you're like, this bridge can't hold shit.

494
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,560
And that certainly has happened to me where I'm like, oh,

495
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:56,640
I totally blew it.

496
00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:01,280
We're here way too late because the upper slopes

497
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,640
were really deep in supportive snowpack

498
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:05,360
with a really good freeze.

499
00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:07,960
And as we got lower, the temp is going up

500
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,600
and the snowpack is getting shallower and we are host.

501
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,240
Oh, man, this is a horrible feeling.

502
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,320
Yeah, so that's an interesting.

503
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,000
That makes me think of another question.

504
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,800
So if you're going to do the other day,

505
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,600
we were skiing a pitch with Frank.

506
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,760
And it was, I don't know, what, 900 feet, 1,000 feet?

507
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:29,240
Yeah.

508
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,320
So that's all kind of in one zone.

509
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:32,680
Yeah.

510
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,640
And that was pretty much the same pitch down to the road.

511
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:38,520
And then we parked the sled a little bit up out

512
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:39,880
of the danger zone.

513
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:41,800
Yeah.

514
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,880
And so in that case, we're not really,

515
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:46,240
or at least this is my understanding.

516
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:47,520
Tell me if I'm wrong.

517
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,480
Because that face and that zone is just not that big,

518
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,400
we're not going to face a huge amount of difference

519
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:55,520
from the top to the bottom.

520
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,080
And that's why that's OK that that slope kind of was just

521
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,560
the same angle and then done.

522
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,720
Whereas if you're going to do it bigger.

523
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:06,840
Because that slope was pretty much like this.

524
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:12,080
It was like 35 to 38 degrees the whole time.

525
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,000
And then you hit the valley floor.

526
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:15,080
Exactly.

527
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:19,520
And it was in that mid elevation range of near treeline,

528
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:21,240
super predictable.

529
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,200
The only thing that could change on that,

530
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,280
because the slope angle is steady,

531
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,800
the aspect was due south, that was steady,

532
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,880
is sometimes you get ridghtop wins, right?

533
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:38,800
And that may, in my near death experience with an avalanche,

534
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:40,960
that was the big change.

535
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,040
Was the wind just walks through there

536
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:44,960
and doesn't let it corn up.

537
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,560
But we had calm winds and you were flying the drone,

538
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:48,240
no problem.

539
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,600
It was barely a breath of wind.

540
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:52,680
But that's not, so my question was this.

541
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:57,520
If you're going to go higher up ski like a 2,000 foot descent

542
00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:58,120
or something like that.

543
00:25:58,120 --> 00:26:00,040
We're talking low-co and I like it.

544
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:06,400
But like, would it be better to look for something where

545
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:13,320
each maybe 800 feet or whatever is slowly mellowing out

546
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:17,560
as you go down so that even though that crust is getting

547
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:22,880
thinner, you're lowering your slope angle essentially, right?

548
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:23,840
Am I wrong about that?

549
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:29,840
Getting more solar radiation near treeline facing south

550
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:34,920
and then it gets a little flatter mid and flatter still.

551
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,720
So it's getting less solar radiation when you're

552
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:39,520
down near the valley floor.

553
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,760
Yeah, that would be optimal.

554
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:43,080
That would be optimal.

555
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:43,600
No wind.

556
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,680
You're kind of no wind because wind messes it all up.

557
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:48,880
And that would be sort of covering your base,

558
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,200
like covering your bases on two fronts sort of, right?

559
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:52,360
Yeah.

560
00:26:52,360 --> 00:26:55,040
Because you're accounting for the fact

561
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,720
that as we get lower, that crust will get thinner probably.

562
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:00,520
Yes, as it's flattening out.

563
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,240
But because it's flattening out, even

564
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,080
if we do punch through that crust,

565
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,320
our chance of triggering something is much, much less likely.

566
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:10,120
Yeah.

567
00:27:10,120 --> 00:27:14,000
And right now, the other variable to play with

568
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:15,720
would be aspect as well.

569
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,320
So let's say this is our volcano and we

570
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:20,640
can see any aspect we want.

571
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,520
By the way, we'll be selling all of these items at Jeff's house

572
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:29,240
at auction as a part of a kit of how you can explain to your

573
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,920
friends avalanche danger in the springtime.

574
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:34,200
Yeah.

575
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,800
Actually, Ordovox has this really cool thing.

576
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:38,080
You can check it out online where

577
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,200
it's like this little kind of like train set almost,

578
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:42,520
but of a mountain.

579
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,280
So you can visualize all these concepts and play with it.

580
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,040
Because holding in your head is really difficult.

581
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:50,880
And this is really fair.

582
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,440
If you're struggling with this, that's OK.

583
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,160
Because when I'm examining guides,

584
00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,920
they're struggling with this too of what elevation band am I at,

585
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,680
what aspect am I on, what's the unique weather conditions

586
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:10,760
at all of those, and where are the 24 slices of the critical

587
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,800
blacked out danger zones that form up the problem

588
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:15,640
distribution.

589
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,800
So if they're worried about wet, loose, and wet slab

590
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,560
on the sunny side and persistent slab dry snow problems

591
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,640
on the shady side, that's 48 slices of the pie

592
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:28,240
to hold in your head.

593
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,600
And you're worried about ski quality and about safety,

594
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:32,960
about the stability.

595
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:34,200
It is really hard.

596
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,920
And shameless product plug, that's

597
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:41,440
where aspect avi makes it so easy to brain dump

598
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:46,360
and help support the user by crunching that data for you.

599
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,280
And then you can focus on the snow quality

600
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,120
and being like, ah, we're going to ski east in the morning.

601
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,960
And then we're going to ski southeast, south,

602
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,400
southwest, and finally west.

603
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,960
And heck, we may finish off with a quick lap north

604
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:02,880
to get it home.

605
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,160
And it might be dry powder and everything else was corn.

606
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:06,800
All right, sweet.

607
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,960
So maybe you were actually, wait, I have one last question.

608
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,560
We're talking about corn and these ice bridges and stuff.

609
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,600
And the other day when we were going up ski touring,

610
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,040
we're walking through Aspen Glades.

611
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,080
And I punched my pole through and it got

612
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,000
like stuck next to a tree.

613
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,920
So it made me think, where are the places when we are skiing

614
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:28,400
in the spring?

615
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:33,640
Because I just kind of want to disperse, I don't know,

616
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,800
get rid of this myth that spring skiing is just safer.

617
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,080
Dispel, thank you.

618
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,680
Yes, there are things about spring skiing that are safer,

619
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,760
but it's not just across the board safe.

620
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:50,680
So where are the places when we're talking about with this

621
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,200
ice bridge, where are the places we still

622
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,640
want to look out for on our ski tours?

623
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:56,840
Yeah, so let's think of it this way.

624
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:01,520
If this piece of ginger.

625
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,120
Dude, how much stuff do you have on your table right now?

626
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:04,600
I don't know.

627
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:06,240
I'm getting a bit peckish.

628
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,200
It's time for second breakfast, second's ease.

629
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,320
And if anybody knows me, they know I'm a bit ravenous.

630
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,800
I have to keep that tape warm, happy.

631
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:22,280
So let's say this is a tree, like an aspen or spruce.

632
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,600
So in your level one avalanche class,

633
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,480
they'll be like, hey, here's what happens.

634
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,520
The heat from the center of the earth

635
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:33,000
is coming up and going through the snowpack.

636
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,000
And when it's a shallow snowpack,

637
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,440
you're going to get fasted in because of that heat driving

638
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,160
the way the vapor moves in the snowpack between the ice

639
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:44,400
crystals.

640
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,440
Now, if you have a tree or a bush,

641
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,920
it's like a radiator in your house.

642
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:54,560
And it radiates the heat in 360 degrees.

643
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:59,000
So anytime in the wintertime when you put your pole in

644
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,440
or you put your probe in, it's going

645
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,120
to be a lot of facets around the tree,

646
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,600
unless you're in a super deep warm snowpack like the Sierra's

647
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,320
of the Cascades.

648
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:14,280
And when people say trees are anchors,

649
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,480
you're like, ah, no.

650
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,200
And all you got to do is put your hand in there.

651
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:24,480
And maybe you're in a two meter snowpack that's really warm

652
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,080
and it gets a lot of rain and you dig down in there

653
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,160
and you're like, oh, actually, it's true.

654
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,440
It's ice and rounds.

655
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:32,600
OK, fair enough.

656
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,520
But in a shallow snowpack where it's

657
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:36,640
cold, less than a meter and a half,

658
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,880
you're going to see way more facets around a willowbush,

659
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,000
sagebrush, a tree.

660
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:44,840
That's just how it is.

661
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,640
And it's kind of like on a math problem

662
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:49,120
where you have to show your work.

663
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,320
And you're like, hey, you got the right answer.

664
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,440
The forest is helping with stability.

665
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,720
However, totally wrong method.

666
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,080
And the reason why those trees are helping with stability

667
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,800
is that the tree bombs, when they fall off,

668
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,000
and some of these can be five pounds,

669
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:09,800
and some of them can be 20 pounds

670
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,240
and like jack your neck up, like really scary.

671
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,680
They're coming down when it gets warm or windy

672
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:21,800
and they bomb the layers of weak facets on top

673
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,040
and they totally break it up.

674
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,680
So this has often happened to me where

675
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,120
it's like super sketchy conditions, considerable or high

676
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:30,200
danger.

677
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,880
And I'm in a meadow and clearing in the forest.

678
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,160
And there's like a few of Charlie Brown Christmas trees

679
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,200
there and it's an intermediate could ride through there.

680
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:42,160
And you cannot isolate the column without it collapsing

681
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:43,080
and landing on your lap.

682
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,200
It's that hair trigger.

683
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,880
But you go 100 feet into the dense old growth forest

684
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,240
where only an expert can ride through because it's pretty

685
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:52,400
tight.

686
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:56,040
And those tree bombs break up the weak layer.

687
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,360
And keep in mind, we just got a big dump of snow on the pass

688
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:00,680
at 22 inches.

689
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:02,560
Where is most of that snow?

690
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,600
A lot of it is up in the canopy.

691
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,960
So it's taking the pressure off the snowpack.

692
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:14,400
So instead of getting a wallop of 22 inches of weight

693
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,400
and the snow water equivalent, call that two inches of water,

694
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,920
you might only be getting half of that on the snowpack.

695
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,560
So it stresses it much less.

696
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,360
And the caveat is it's got to be really dense,

697
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:27,880
old growth forest.

698
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,880
Lodge pole pines, they don't hold much up in the branches.

699
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:35,360
But like spruce or like cedar, that's awesome.

700
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:40,280
And they really can make this snow stability of the snowpack

701
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,760
much, much more in our favor, much more stable.

702
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,520
To the point where you dig a pit and you cannot get it to fail,

703
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,120
then you go out into the open clearing

704
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,280
where there's no tree bombs at all.

705
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,520
And the full weight of the storm is hitting the snowpack.

706
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,080
And it's the total opposite end of the spectrum.

707
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,440
The column is failing at the wrist.

708
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,920
And it's propagating across the whole thing.

709
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:05,760
And you're like, holy cow, this matches up

710
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,840
with the forecast of the worst conditions

711
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:11,280
possible to be expected.

712
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:11,760
Right on.

713
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:13,280
That actually makes a lot of sense.

714
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:17,680
But isn't that a little more in general of like a normal snowpack?

715
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:21,960
We're talking about a spring snowpack where we have that ice bridge.

716
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,080
And then so when we're dealing with that kind of snowpack,

717
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,560
where are the exact zones?

718
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:31,720
Say we're on a 35 degree slope, things are looking good.

719
00:34:31,720 --> 00:34:35,760
If we're looking at a nice kind of double black diamond,

720
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,880
but it's a nice open kind of phase.

721
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,200
35, 40 degrees.

722
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:45,520
But what would, when we're dealing with that overall crust layer,

723
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:49,520
what would we still want to be wary of in that condition?

724
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,760
So these are my special X-ray vision glasses.

725
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,840
And so we look through the snowpack

726
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:04,240
and you can see the bushes, the stumps, the logs, the rocks,

727
00:35:04,240 --> 00:35:06,000
the ledges.

728
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:10,800
Those are all radiators sending out fat heat around them

729
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:15,680
in every direction, even after they're buried or mostly buried,

730
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,080
just poking through just the tip.

731
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:25,040
And those facets are going to take a long time to transform.

732
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:32,360
And you may have a really good uniform slope.

733
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:37,240
And there's a few land mines kicking around the slope.

734
00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:39,680
And as you melt through that bridge,

735
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:44,480
you can access those wet facets that haven't switched over

736
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,840
and become melt-freezed crust, which is like a mechanical process.

737
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:53,200
It's changing from a solid to a liquid and then

738
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:54,840
refreezing to a solid.

739
00:35:54,840 --> 00:36:01,120
And then facets are about the vapor changing and exchanging,

740
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:05,440
where you have ice crystals exchanging vapor.

741
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:06,800
And it's pretty tacky.

742
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,080
But you can watch ice evaporate on an ice climb

743
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:11,280
over a long dry spell.

744
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:12,440
It's really wild.

745
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:13,320
It doesn't melt.

746
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:14,960
It just goes straight to gas.

747
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:16,240
And it's gone.

748
00:36:16,240 --> 00:36:18,800
You're like, whoa, that's weird.

749
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:20,080
So keep in mind.

750
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,320
So would there be, would the?

751
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:26,600
If you're on the slope and it looks pretty uniform,

752
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:33,560
and it's wide open, like smooth snow, versus, oh,

753
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,880
I'm seeing on the edge of that uniform slope

754
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,880
a whole bunch of bushes and rock ledges.

755
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:41,640
Man, I'm staying away from that.

756
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,480
Especially if we're starting to melt through our bridge

757
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:46,840
and we're like, ooh, it's getting a little late to be here.

758
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:47,960
We've got to get out of here.

759
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:49,240
It's the bridges melting.

760
00:36:49,240 --> 00:36:50,920
We need to get out of here.

761
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,040
You can't see everything under the surface.

762
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,680
But if you see a couple of sharp spins sticking up

763
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,320
with rocks or bushes and sagebrush,

764
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,400
that's where you're most likely to punch through.

765
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,040
Because it's not rounds underneath.

766
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,200
It's probably going to be a mixture of facets

767
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:07,800
and melt freeze crust.

768
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,040
And it's going to be weaker than the deep uniform snow

769
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,080
pack that's predominantly rounded

770
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,840
and has a smooth, strong crust on top.

771
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:20,800
So kind of like to sum that up, the later in the day,

772
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:27,120
you get the more that top ice bridge, whatever we're calling it,

773
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:31,080
is melting through, maybe the further away,

774
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:36,240
you want to stay from those potential shark fins.

775
00:37:36,240 --> 00:37:39,000
It almost seems like a reverse puddle.

776
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,320
Reverse puddle, is that me?

777
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:42,160
I've never heard that.

778
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:47,320
Just thinking about if you have a rock or a stump

779
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,360
or something under it, you can kind of imagine

780
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:55,280
that there's going to be this facet almost dome around it

781
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:56,280
or near it.

782
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:57,280
That's a great way to picture it.

783
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,440
It's going to be the thinnest at the top.

784
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:05,720
So as that, say, this rock is two feet across,

785
00:38:05,720 --> 00:38:11,040
but as we are melting through that corn, that nice crusty

786
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,680
layer, the further away you'd want to stay because that puddle

787
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:16,600
is kind of getting bigger.

788
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:18,280
Yeah, that's a great way of visualizing it.

789
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,360
And of course, what gets really tough

790
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,960
is when we can't use our X-ray vision glasses.

791
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,680
The shark fins on the top, those are the sharks that

792
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:28,000
are easy to avoid.

793
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:28,600
Can you see?

794
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:30,040
They're poking out.

795
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:31,600
But the hidden ones.

796
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,800
And quite often, when you see a crown of an avalanche,

797
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,640
the shark fins were like a couple inches below the surface,

798
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:43,000
and they were able to access that old snow sugary layer there.

799
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,240
You just couldn't see it.

800
00:38:45,240 --> 00:38:46,160
But yeah, you're right.

801
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,800
And timing is absolutely critical of,

802
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:53,680
like, am I in the right place at the right time?

803
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:55,360
And sometimes the forecast is wrong.

804
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:56,760
Like when Frank and I went out, I

805
00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:01,200
was expecting it to be seven inches of rock hard frozen corn.

806
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:04,040
And instead, we got this freak little snow shower

807
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:05,760
that came through with one to two inches,

808
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:07,960
and the clouds just stayed all night.

809
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:09,680
And it was like a warm blanket.

810
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:15,200
So we didn't get that kind of like 17, 15 degree temperature

811
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:16,160
at night.

812
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:18,760
It was more like high 20s.

813
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,800
And the new snow helped insulate,

814
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:23,640
and it just didn't freeze deep.

815
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,760
And here's a wacky thing.

816
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:30,320
Heat can penetrate the snowpack and cause the water

817
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:31,840
to percolate down through.

818
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,600
And you'll get icicles in the snowpack.

819
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:36,800
And these are called percolation columns.

820
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:38,040
You can just call them icicles.

821
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,520
Like, let's kill jargon.

822
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:45,180
And just to be clear, that's like literally icicles.

823
00:39:45,180 --> 00:39:46,960
It's hanging off of that crusty layer

824
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:48,200
that we want to be skiing on.

825
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,400
Yeah, this is the crusty layer.

826
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,880
The icicles, it's not like the water goes through uniformly.

827
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:55,960
It's incredibly variable.

828
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:57,720
And this is that shit crazy.

829
00:39:57,720 --> 00:39:59,800
This freaked me the hell out.

830
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,200
If you look at some great papers when they talk about wet slab

831
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,320
cycles and predicting them, usually it's two to three

832
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:10,240
nights with no freeze in the spring and really warm temperatures.

833
00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:12,880
And what you'll see is the stream gauges

834
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,400
are a really accurate predictor.

835
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,280
And the stream gauges, when do they actually peak?

836
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,720
It's not during the day.

837
00:40:21,720 --> 00:40:23,680
It's at night.

838
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,680
Because the water takes forever to percolate through.

839
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:27,280
I don't know.

840
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:29,840
It'd be really cool to put Kool-Aid through and like,

841
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:31,480
some phosphorescent to die.

842
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:33,600
And I'm sure somebody's done it.

843
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:34,360
It takes this long.

844
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:37,280
So when I was snow cat guiding up at Irwin,

845
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:38,960
we had a lot of west facing terrain

846
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:43,320
that was big and steep with these big cliff bands.

847
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,800
And you would go out in the morning

848
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,560
and you'd put your hand on the rock.

849
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,440
You're like, it's still hot.

850
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:52,880
Oh, that's fucked up.

851
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,320
And so what happens is, if this is my rock

852
00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:00,520
onto my 40 degrees slope, it is soaking up so much heat

853
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:02,280
because it's on a steep slope.

854
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:06,040
And it's radiating that heat throughout the night.

855
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,840
And as the water goes down into the snowpack,

856
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,800
it will hit a crust layer that acts like a tin roof

857
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,480
and pushes the water down the slope

858
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,560
until it finds a crack in the roof and trickles down.

859
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,040
And it is really difficult to predict

860
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,640
how the water's moving through the snowpack

861
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:27,080
and for how long.

862
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,400
And just because it got to freezing that night,

863
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,280
if you've got a lot of rocks in your snowpack,

864
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,480
it may keep melting throughout the night.

865
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,080
And those trigger points become really pronounced

866
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,520
and the water pools in strange ways.

867
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:42,200
And if you dig into the snowpack,

868
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:43,560
you'll start to see that

869
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:45,400
where you'll start to see those icicles

870
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,560
being really weird places and the water pool

871
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:50,560
like in these crazy puddles.

872
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:55,080
And you're just like, whoa, this is so hyper variable.

873
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:57,800
I wanna make sure I'm on a really thick bridge,

874
00:41:57,800 --> 00:41:59,960
five to seven inches.

875
00:41:59,960 --> 00:42:02,840
And I'm only skiing on maybe two inches

876
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,520
of perfect corn on top that's melted

877
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:07,680
and I've got a lot of ice to support me

878
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:09,960
because there is a whole lot of chaos

879
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:13,920
happening under my feet that's almost unimaginable.

880
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,680
And I think it's really important to dispel the myth

881
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,920
that as a mountain guide or an avalanche forecaster,

882
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:23,120
we have a mental model of what the snowpack is doing.

883
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:25,920
But my God, that thing is a black box.

884
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,760
And this is like Schrodinger's cat and like physics stuff

885
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,400
where when you put the cat in the black box,

886
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,280
you never really know if it's alive or dead.

887
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,560
You're not sure what's going on in there.

888
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,920
And we can make generalizations and simplify

889
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,360
like these mental models of, hey,

890
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,760
South and Southwest is really strong corn right now,

891
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:48,480
but every slope is different.

892
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:50,440
And there's so many variables.

893
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:54,040
It's really hard to know with absolute certainty.

894
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,000
And when it's a huge red flag for me,

895
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,160
when someone is absolutely certain

896
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:00,600
and they're like, I feel good about this,

897
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:04,880
I feel very confident, that is a full stop.

898
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:06,840
Like we need to talk this out

899
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,200
because that is a walking human factor trap.

900
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:12,800
Because I'm sorry, like as you get older,

901
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,160
you just realize the world is infinitely complex

902
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:17,080
compared to what you thought it was when you was a kid,

903
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:19,160
when things were very simple, black and white,

904
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:20,560
it's either go or no go.

905
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:22,360
And now you're like, whoa, okay,

906
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,160
there's so much going on under the surface

907
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,640
that unless we're digging like 10 pits on that slope,

908
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:30,600
we really don't have much idea.

909
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:32,840
We can make these generalizations.

910
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:36,160
So when we were digging and I probably dug,

911
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:40,360
I don't know, five, six pits on a 1400 vertical climb

912
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:41,680
because I wanted to gather and-

913
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,160
Wait, wait, wait, let's be clear.

914
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:46,520
We didn't dig like snow pits.

915
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:48,400
We were digging out blocks.

916
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:49,400
Sorry.

917
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:50,360
Yeah, yeah.

918
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:51,200
So what I was doing was-

919
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:52,120
I don't want to confuse.

920
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,960
We did a whole podcast about how snow pits are not

921
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:56,520
as reliable as you think.

922
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:58,400
I don't want to confuse people.

923
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:02,800
And having your ice axe tucked in to your hall loop

924
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,240
right behind your back is clutch.

925
00:44:05,240 --> 00:44:08,840
Like a shovel, it's really hard to stow a shovel quickly,

926
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:10,560
but guides do this all the time

927
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,160
and you can go shing and bring your sword out,

928
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:16,200
chop, chop, chop, and it takes you 30 seconds.

929
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,560
And now you're starting to see the pattern

930
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:21,280
and being like, oh, what's the slope angle

931
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:23,400
and what's the aspect

932
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:25,920
and how many inches crust am I seeing

933
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:27,960
and what's underneath it?

934
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,480
And how quickly am I melting through?

935
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:34,640
So if I know, okay, this slope is super consistent,

936
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:38,200
like you described, it's a thousand vertical feet

937
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,680
and it's all pretty much the same slope angle.

938
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:44,240
And I'm seeing very consistent seven inch crust.

939
00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:49,000
I'm like, okay, but I need quite a few data points.

940
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:49,840
Right.

941
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,200
And then it becomes, all right,

942
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:57,200
I'm feeling more confident because the data suggests

943
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:00,560
that it is consistent.

944
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:04,120
But if you're on a slope with lots of different slope angles

945
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:08,400
and it's 3000 vertical feet and it changes aspects,

946
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:11,560
I'm like, oh man, I got to gather a lot of data

947
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,200
to start to have some confidence

948
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:19,240
that it's representative of what we're trusting our lives to.

949
00:45:19,240 --> 00:45:21,960
Think of this, have you ever been into a building

950
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,480
like a skyscraper made of steel?

951
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,400
And that steel is just a degree or two

952
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:29,800
away from its melting point.

953
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:31,800
That's what we're doing with snow.

954
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:33,120
It's kind of fucking nuts.

955
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:34,040
Well, I've definitely never been

956
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:35,640
into a melting skyscraper, Jeff.

957
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:37,000
I don't know what kind of stuff you're doing

958
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:38,000
on your free time, man,

959
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:39,600
but you're way more extreme than me.

960
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:41,480
All right, well, that's kind of a good,

961
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:45,200
let's really quickly, you just mentioned ice axes and stuff

962
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:46,320
because there's kind of different gear

963
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:48,720
that we want for spring skiing, right?

964
00:45:48,720 --> 00:45:49,560
Yeah.

965
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:51,520
Like ski crampons are a really great useful tool,

966
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:52,360
which is hilarious.

967
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,680
I've never used them until I met you.

968
00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:58,320
So yeah, us Americans,

969
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:00,680
we got to get on this ski crampon thing.

970
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:02,560
It's sweeping the nation.

971
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:03,400
It's awesome.

972
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,560
Having an ice axe is clutch.

973
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,640
Just, you know, when we were out there,

974
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,720
I can tell you that you were pulling out giant blocks

975
00:46:12,720 --> 00:46:15,400
in about 20 seconds with an ice axe,

976
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:17,960
where probably would have taken a minute or two to do

977
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:20,640
with a shovel just because of the way that works.

978
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:21,600
Yeah.

979
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:25,960
What are other pieces of gear that people should think about

980
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,840
or are really useful specifically for spring skiing?

981
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:31,280
Yeah, those are the key ones.

982
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:32,360
You hit them right there.

983
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:36,160
And ski crampons, like if you're coming out with a guide

984
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:40,360
to do a hot trip, they are mandatory gear in the Alps.

985
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:44,080
Like nobody leaves the valley floor without ski crampons.

986
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:45,120
That's just how it is.

987
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,960
And for some reason, Americans are really slow.

988
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:49,720
They're like the telemarkers.

989
00:46:49,720 --> 00:46:51,440
And I'm a recovering telemarker.

990
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:54,080
Like there's better gear out there.

991
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:55,520
They just choose to ignore it.

992
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:56,760
And so it's safety.

993
00:46:57,920 --> 00:46:58,960
Here's the three keys.

994
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:00,480
It's safety.

995
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,160
So you don't slide off the mountain and hit something.

996
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,520
And this is a big thing in the springtime.

997
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:09,200
If you're on like a 35 degree slope and steeper,

998
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,200
like a double black diamond, you're not gonna stop.

999
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:15,880
And I know experienced climbers who I've climbed

1000
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:18,880
like LCAP with, and that's how they died,

1001
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:22,360
was sliding on cornstone until they went over a cliff

1002
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:23,520
or a rock.

1003
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:26,720
And it's just like, hey, you gotta have this gear

1004
00:47:26,720 --> 00:47:29,080
and you gotta think about what's below you.

1005
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:31,600
And ironically, when I got avalanched,

1006
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:33,440
that's why we were in boot crampons

1007
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:37,680
because my guys weren't super fluid on steep skinning

1008
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:39,320
and with ski crampons.

1009
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:41,160
So we're like, all right, we gotta go boot crampons.

1010
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:44,360
And ironically, it caused us to punch through.

1011
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:46,840
So ski crampons are pretty clutch.

1012
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:49,360
They make kick turns and steep slopes

1013
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:54,360
so much more comfortable, safe, and efficient.

1014
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:58,680
And the key is always put the ski crampons on

1015
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:01,000
before you need them.

1016
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,200
If you're like, oh man, this is really sketchy,

1017
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:04,360
you're our hose.

1018
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:06,960
Do you wanna find a flat place to put it on?

1019
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,480
And it's the same thing with boot crampons.

1020
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:11,760
If you're like, man, this slope is getting really steep.

1021
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,800
If we blow a turn here, even with ski crampons,

1022
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:17,120
we are gone, it's like, okay,

1023
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:19,640
we need to dig out a platform with the ax

1024
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:21,000
because I've got it holstered here

1025
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:24,040
and I can just go shing, shop out a flat platform,

1026
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,960
take off the uphill ski first,

1027
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:30,520
always have the downhill ski on for safety,

1028
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:33,560
and then get a flat spot, put my crampons on,

1029
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:35,480
skis on the back, and away we go.

1030
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,160
And the ax and crampons oftentimes,

1031
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:40,880
like the Vircan aluminum ones for spring corn

1032
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:42,320
are more than enough.

1033
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:45,840
And that might weigh, oh, I don't know,

1034
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:47,920
less than two pounds for both of them.

1035
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:49,160
They're pretty.

1036
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:50,840
Your axes are freaky light.

1037
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:52,040
Every time I pick one up,

1038
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,760
I think that there's a glitch in the matrix or something.

1039
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:55,880
It's like floating away.

1040
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:56,720
Yeah.

1041
00:48:56,720 --> 00:48:59,280
Yeah, I'm like, wait, this is like balloons away this much.

1042
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:01,680
All right, cool, man.

1043
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:03,880
Well, let's leave everyone with,

1044
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:06,040
do you wanna just do a really, really quick recap?

1045
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:07,200
Do you think you can do it?

1046
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:10,880
Like of just one of the key takeaways?

1047
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,720
Yeah, stretch it out, bro, stretch it out.

1048
00:49:13,720 --> 00:49:17,840
Key takeaways and then things that we wanna just,

1049
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:18,920
things that we wanna look out for

1050
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:21,840
when we're skiing in the spring.

1051
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:23,480
There's our perception.

1052
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:26,400
There's our perception of what's happening in the snowpack

1053
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:28,200
in reality.

1054
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:30,400
And so we're gonna have to gather information

1055
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:34,880
to update our perception to make it match reality.

1056
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:38,040
And in the springtime, it's changing fast

1057
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:39,560
over the course of a week.

1058
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:41,360
And even in the course of a few hours.

1059
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:43,040
In fact, I'm stressing hard

1060
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,000
because that sun is gonna cook my powder out there right now

1061
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:48,120
and we're going out for a hot lunch lap.

1062
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:52,080
So we need to be very adaptive to the conditions

1063
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:57,080
and we need to consider our three elevation bands

1064
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:03,320
and the slope angle to the sun.

1065
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:04,960
Is it flat?

1066
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:07,000
Is it middle or is it steep?

1067
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,920
We also need to consider the aspect.

1068
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:13,880
So it's a lot to hold in our head.

1069
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:17,880
And that's where aspect, Abby, really helps you

1070
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:20,560
with the snow stability part.

1071
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:24,400
So you can focus on where's the best riding.

1072
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:27,280
And I find even as a super expert,

1073
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:29,560
I've been doing this for 20 years,

1074
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,840
man, it is nice to offload a lot of that

1075
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:36,200
so I can focus on moving my team through the terrain

1076
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:40,360
as safely as possible and maximizing our rewards.

1077
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:42,640
I can really focus on the good snow

1078
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:45,400
and moving my team through the terrain safely

1079
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:49,320
as opposed to how do I hold all those variables in my head?

1080
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:51,480
And I'm sorry for the shameless product plug,

1081
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:53,520
but I've just seen so many guides

1082
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:55,440
that I'm examining struggle with it.

1083
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:57,160
And I'm like, what aspect are we on?

1084
00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:59,320
And they're like, I think we're,

1085
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,800
and I'm like, don't think, check.

1086
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,560
You know, they're like, I don't want to hear guesswork.

1087
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:07,160
You've got to be constantly checking in.

1088
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:09,840
There's a great phrase when you're navigating.

1089
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:13,600
It's like, if you don't know where you are all the time,

1090
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:16,440
you're kind of lost.

1091
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:18,400
Like you don't want to be like, man, where the heck are we?

1092
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:20,480
It's time to pull out the map or the phone.

1093
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:22,800
It's like, no, you really need to know what aspect

1094
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,480
in elevation band you're on at all times

1095
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:30,480
and what the rewards and what the risk is going to be

1096
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:32,000
for being in that spot.

1097
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:36,080
That's the big concepts and then nuts and bolts.

1098
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:38,040
How thick is the bridge?

1099
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:41,440
And is it over garbage or is it over concrete?

1100
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,840
And how deeply am I melting in?

1101
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:49,680
And so I will put my fingers into the snow like this

1102
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:53,040
and the first knuckle, hey, that's pretty good riding.

1103
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:55,720
And we haven't lost hardly any stability.

1104
00:51:55,720 --> 00:51:57,040
Second knuckle.

1105
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:00,640
Oh, okay, that is the best riding.

1106
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:01,880
It's the best riding.

1107
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:04,600
Second knuckle, that's phenomenal riding.

1108
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:07,080
And we're still looking pretty good on stability.

1109
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:09,080
But then when you get up to the third knuckle,

1110
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:13,760
the riding is going down and the stability is going down.

1111
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:16,360
And it's like, we're too late, time to get out of here.

1112
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:19,600
Let's go change aspect, let's change elevation.

1113
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:22,120
Let's get out of here or the slope angle.

1114
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:24,400
Nice.

1115
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:25,720
Those are my top tips.

1116
00:52:25,720 --> 00:52:27,280
How to find good snow in the guide

1117
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:32,760
and come home to your family. I mean, those are pretty good tips.

1118
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:34,320
I got one last question for you actually.

1119
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:35,280
That made me think of something.

1120
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:40,160
So because we're in this, we were in a very warm cycle.

1121
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:41,000
Yeah.

1122
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:42,560
And then it kind of cooled off over the last couple of days.

1123
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:45,120
It's still not crazy cold, but definitely cooled off.

1124
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:47,040
And now we're starting to get, you know,

1125
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:49,080
we got eight inches last night.

1126
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:51,320
It's kind of like cleared a day

1127
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:52,760
whether we're supposed to have consistent snow

1128
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:54,200
going into the weekend.

1129
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:59,600
If we know we have that old frozen layer,

1130
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:00,880
that ice bridge there,

1131
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:03,600
and then now we have, say, a foot of fresh snow

1132
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:04,960
over a couple of days,

1133
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:07,560
how does that change the way we travel?

1134
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:09,280
Then I'm psyched because I'm like,

1135
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:12,200
hey, we just got a foot of new snow

1136
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:14,800
over seven inches of frozen corn.

1137
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:18,760
Hey, we can check easily to see if it's bonded well

1138
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:21,960
with our hands. Does it slide off a steel roof?

1139
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:23,520
Ooh, that's not good.

1140
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:26,000
Or is it stuck on there pretty well?

1141
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:29,200
And we're skiing on seven inches of concrete.

1142
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:32,720
We don't need to ski where the persistence slab problem is

1143
00:53:32,720 --> 00:53:35,200
on the shady aspects if we get on it right away.

1144
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:38,200
And that's why I was like, oh, I'm skiing west today

1145
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:40,000
with Eli at Romp Skis.

1146
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:43,360
And we got to get on it right now before it gets cooked.

1147
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:45,480
It's like the clock is ticking.

1148
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:48,440
Well, on that note, then I'll let you go skiing, man.

1149
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:50,720
I'm gonna edit this podcast.

1150
00:53:50,720 --> 00:53:53,200
So enjoy your time outside.

1151
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:56,320
And yeah, you got any final words, man?

1152
00:53:56,320 --> 00:54:01,440
Yeah, the conditions are super variable in the springtime

1153
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:03,880
with big temperature swings from well below freezing

1154
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:06,760
to well above and intense solar

1155
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:09,960
as the sun gets more intense this time of year.

1156
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:12,720
So we need to adapt our behavior

1157
00:54:12,720 --> 00:54:15,160
to the rapidly changing conditions

1158
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:17,800
and be very flexible with our mental model.

1159
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:19,520
Like for instance, what we just talked about

1160
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:24,000
if the storm comes in during the day

1161
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:26,120
that corn snow may not have frozen.

1162
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:29,160
It's really hard for cold to penetrate deeper

1163
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:34,160
in the snowpack than say, oh, about eight to 10 inches.

1164
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:37,640
The cold just can't really get through

1165
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,000
unless it's cold for many, many days.

1166
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:42,840
And that doesn't usually happen in the springtime.

1167
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:44,760
Usually it's hot during the day, cold at night.

1168
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:47,840
So it's got like this, I don't know, 10 hour window

1169
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:50,400
in which for the cold to penetrate and refreeze.

1170
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:52,720
So you got to constantly be checking.

1171
00:54:52,720 --> 00:54:54,760
And you can do that really quickly with an ice axe

1172
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:59,760
or a probe and check that top foot of the snowpack of

1173
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:03,040
am I over garbage or concrete?

1174
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:05,280
How thick is the ice bridge?

1175
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:08,200
And how many knuckles have I melted down?

1176
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:09,640
One knuckle, okay.

1177
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:13,200
Two knuckles, that's primo and time to wrap it up.

1178
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:15,560
Three knuckles, we're too late, time to go.

1179
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,120
My final question to you is can I borrow an ice axe

1180
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:19,480
for my hut trip this weekend?

1181
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:24,760
For shizzle, I'll get you set up.

1182
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:27,360
Sick, all right, Jeff, we'll enjoy your time outside.

1183
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:30,360
And we'll see you next week, man.

1184
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:32,000
All right, stay safe out there folks

1185
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:33,600
and we'll see you in the back country.

1186
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:34,960
Peace.

1187
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:37,120
Thank you so much for listening to All Aspects.

1188
00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:38,200
If you like what we're doing here,

1189
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:39,720
please leave a rating and review.

1190
00:55:39,720 --> 00:55:42,080
It really is the best way to help others find the show.

1191
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:43,400
Thanks again to our business daddy,

1192
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:45,360
Aspect Abby for making this show possible.

1193
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:47,040
To learn more about how Aspect Abby

1194
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:48,960
is making avalanche safety simple,

1195
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:51,000
go to aspectabby.com.

1196
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:52,760
If you wanna use this powerful new tool

1197
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:54,040
on your next back country adventure,

1198
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:55,920
simply download the app from the app store

1199
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:58,400
and enjoy 30 days free on them.

1200
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:00,440
Lastly, special thanks to Ice Lab

1201
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:01,800
for helping us produce this show.

1202
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:04,480
You guys rock and we couldn't do without you.

1203
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:05,520
Thanks again for listening

1204
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:15,520
and we'll see you in the back country.