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I still get asked quite a lot by first time heliskiers,

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am I going to have to jump out of the helicopter?

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And you're like, oh my god, don't please do not

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jump out of the helicopter.

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We have a problem with your bailing.

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Yeah, if you're jumping out of the helicopter,

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I better have already jumped out of the helicopter.

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You better be chasing me.

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So because people just have so much more access to media

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and stuff, I think there's an expectation of what

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it might be out there.

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And I think that causes a lot of anxiety in people.

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And when you're like, no, no, no, we're

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going to do nothing like that.

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We're going to go do this.

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A lot of people are like, oh, I'm so relieved.

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I don't think it doesn't have to be this huge,

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debt-defying thing.

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We're not going to go outrun avalanches all day long.

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That's not what we're trying to do out there.

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Welcome to All Aspects, a podcast

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where we explore, discuss, and celebrate adventure culture

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and outdoor lifestyle.

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It is our mission to educate, inform, and entertain

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our fellow adventurers about the inherent risks that surround

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us every time we go outside to play.

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And to provide you with the knowledge and tools

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to help you do the things you love the most

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and the safest way possible.

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All Aspects is brought to you by Aspect Abbey.

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Aspect Abbey is on a mission to save lives

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by making avalanche safety simple.

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It is the only app that tells you where the high and low risk

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zones are for today's avalanche danger.

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With a suite of built-in tools like forecast verification,

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slope meter, and gear checklist, Aspect

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Abbey is the new safety standard for avalanche risk

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management.

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Remember, there are dozens of apps

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that get you into the back country,

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but there is only one that's designed to bring you home.

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And that's Aspect Abbey.

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Go to aspectabbey.com to learn more or download the app

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to start your 30-day free trial.

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Thank you, Aspect Abbey, for making this show possible.

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And thank you for listening.

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All right, let's get to the show.

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Welcome back to the All Aspects podcast.

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We've got a special guest today, my personal hairstylist

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and brother, who's an internationally certified

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mountain guide as well, a longtime senior instructor

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for the AMGA, an examiner.

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He's a Mammut athlete for a long time as well.

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And he's run multiple heli operations in foreign countries

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and currently heli guiding up in Canada,

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just back home for a little stint

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before he's off to Iceland for the heli season there.

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And all around Jack of all trades, my brother, Steve Banks.

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Woo!

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Golf clap.

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Steve, welcome.

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Thank you.

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Psyched me out.

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Can I just jump right into this one for you guys?

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So you guys went through the mountain guide training together,

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right?

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Yeah, for the most part.

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So did you, Steve, get Jeff into the guiding thing,

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or can you give me the origin story there?

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Yeah, sort of.

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Jeff was busy at college back east,

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and I was busy dropping out of college in the west

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and spending more time in the mountains.

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And Jeff came out to visit.

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I think it was in the summertime,

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and we had some summer adventures.

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And I had been exploring more in the back country out here

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in Crested Butte, Colorado, and just doing a lot more skiing

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out in the mountains.

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And was fortunate enough to be learning from a Swiss mountain

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guide who is here in Crested Butte.

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And it was actually him and another guy here in Crested Butte

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who started ARI, an American Institute for Abolance Research

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and Education.

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And so I was fortunate enough to get my early avalanche

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education from them.

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Kind of as ARI was being formed and formulated,

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it wasn't really a super official thing at the time.

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And through this Swiss mountain guide, Jean Pavillard,

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I also did some other, he was doing guide trainings.

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They weren't necessarily sanctioned AMGA courses.

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But I started doing some guide trainings for him.

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He introduced me to the AMGA.

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He was an instructor and examiner at the time.

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And I thought that sounded pretty cool.

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So I signed up for a course.

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I mentioned it to Jeff.

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For some reason, Jeff thought it was a good idea.

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So we jumped over to Aspen and did our first ski guide course

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over there, which was rather eye-opening.

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Nice.

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I remember Steve, you said, hey, I was ski coaching, Nordic

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ski coaching at the time pretty seriously.

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And I didn't even really know that guiding was really a career.

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I was pretty naive.

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And Steve's like, hey, I'm going to go do an AMGA ski guide

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course over at Aspen.

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You want to do it with me.

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And I was like, sure.

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What's the AMGA and what's the ski guide's course?

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But I mean it.

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And then we were driving.

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Real ready-fire approach.

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Yeah, after 10 days, our hair blown back.

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And we were on the North Rim of the Black Canyon

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in a snowstorm.

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And I was, I'm a horrible co-pilot.

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I always fall asleep.

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And when I woke up from my dreams

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as we were whipping around these crazy corners

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over the abyss and the darkness, I was like,

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this is what I'm going to do with my life.

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And here's the next three and a half years plotted out,

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just like a training program for ski racing.

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This is how I'm going to train for guiding.

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And then, yeah, that's my life.

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Are there.

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So did you guys both do AMGA?

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Like what's the pro, I mean, for the normies like me out there,

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like what's the full process to become an AMGA guide?

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So the process with the AMGA is, well,

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it's evolving right now and changing a little bit.

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And but there's a couple of different entry points.

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When Jeff and I started, you could

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enter at whichever discipline you wanted.

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So if you're a rock climber, you could start with the rock

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discipline and the alpine discipline or we were skiers.

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So we started with the ski courses.

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That's changed a little bit over the years

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and it's evolving now.

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And then essentially there's a, for each discipline,

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there's an introductory level course where you learn

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kind of the basics.

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And then there's an advanced level course that also

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has an examination component.

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And then there's the final exam, each one.

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And so the entry level courses tend to be around 10 days.

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The advanced courses are about 10 days as well.

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And the exam is anywhere from eight to 10 days.

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So all told, if you go through all of it,

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now there's a lot of offshoot courses as well.

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There's a ice climbing, a week long ice climbing course.

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There's sort of different pathways

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that you can go through the AMGA to get the education a little

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more tailored to what you want.

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And at the same time, the AMGA has

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to meet the standards of the IFMGA,

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the International Federation of Mountain Guide Associations,

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it kind of sets that standard.

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So is that then real quick, Jeff,

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is that like a pretty natural progression

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for a lot of AMGA guides that they just then naturally

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go for the IFMGA?

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Boy, I wouldn't say it's super natural

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that a lot of people do a lot of it.

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What I see instructing a lot of courses

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is that the deeper people get in,

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the more they want to go the distance.

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In the intro courses, people tend to be like, well,

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this is what I need to do for the work that I want to do right

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now.

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And I'm kind of checking it out to see where it goes.

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Some people, and I would say in the ski,

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it's common that people are just focused on the ski discipline.

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They want to be a ski guide.

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They're not really climbers.

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They don't really want to do that.

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Or there's a lot of rock guides who don't ski,

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and they're like, I want to be a rock guide,

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and that's what I want to do.

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Gotcha.

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So it just depends.

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It's up to each individual.

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And Dave, both of you guys started with skiing?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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OK.

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And Dave, you can kind of think of it

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as getting your education.

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Like lots of people finish elementary school,

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a few less finish high school, a few less go to college,

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few less finish college, and then it's less and less

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for their masters and then their PhD.

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This is your PhD in mountain guiding.

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And the time commitment is somewhere

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between four and 10 years for most people

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to get their full international certification.

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But that means also about 10 years of building your resume

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before you can be accepted into the advanced programs,

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because you need to have climbed 6,000 meter peaks,

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vertical water ice, taking your pro level avalanche classes,

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done your woofer, climbed big walls on El Cap,

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or long trad routes, and be a 5'11 climber.

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So you need to be really well-rounded, jack of all trades.

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So most people are fully committed,

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focused on being in the mountains,

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and their skill set, and their movement, their technique,

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and picking off their prerequisites

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as they go before they come into the program.

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Or they're like, oh, shoot, I haven't done

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any high altitude mountaineering.

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I better do an expedition to Denali for all of June

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or all of July so I can get that experience.

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OK, cool.

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Nice.

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I knew that it was like a pilot getting your flight hours.

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It's like you've got to.

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Just like, yeah.

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Yeah.

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And then the course.

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There's a lot to it.

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Yeah.

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And then you've got to pass your courses and exams,

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which it's a funny kind of stress,

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because we're used to existential stress,

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like life or death stress in the mountains, like, oh my god,

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seracs, avalanches, rockfall, whatever.

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But there's this social stress that

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tends to freak out guides way more

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than the actual real stress.

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It's that psychological stress of, oh my gosh,

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I've invested so much time, money, and energy.

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I really need to pass this course or exam.

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And it's a pretty traumatic experience for most candidates.

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Do you guys, I think Jeff mentioned this at some point,

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but you guys have to go back and like re-certify,

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or is that only in France?

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Or what's the deal with that?

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It's definitely a French thing.

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Different countries handle it differently.

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Technically, the AMGA does have a requirement

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that you are doing continuing professional development,

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but there is no real script for how that gets done.

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For me, and it's an interesting thing for a lot of different

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people and how different people approach it,

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I feel like for me, because mountain guiding is what I do.

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So I'm in it.

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I'm immersed in it all the time.

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So I'm staying more current that way.

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And then also teaching and examining for the AMGA

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is a huge benefit too, because the annual trainings that we do

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stay up to speed with new techniques,

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new things that are evolving, as well as just continually

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going through the process.

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And I love to tell my students all the time too.

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I learn a lot during every course that I teach,

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whether it's somebody from a different region is like,

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hey, here's a technique that we use where I'm from.

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I'm like, oh, wow, I haven't seen that before.

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Or just by the questions that people

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00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:25,440
ask that then force me to think harder about what it is I've

262
00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,000
been doing and what it is that I know

263
00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,040
and see if I can reformulate that in a different way

264
00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,720
or see if there's a better way to think about it

265
00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:35,160
and approach it.

266
00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:39,880
So I really value my work for the AMGA

267
00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,680
for helping to keep me current and on top of my game

268
00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:43,560
personally.

269
00:11:43,560 --> 00:11:46,880
Is there a, well, that's kind of segues into another question

270
00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:47,280
I have.

271
00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:49,400
And this is for both of you, either one of you guys

272
00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:50,080
and take this.

273
00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,120
This is pretty much me now just picking

274
00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:54,280
two Mountain Guides brains.

275
00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:58,240
But have you noticed a difference, say,

276
00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:02,080
in the time that you guys have been doing this as your career?

277
00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,840
Have you noticed a general trend difference

278
00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:09,120
in the mentality of the people that you're guiding,

279
00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:10,960
say, in the last 10 years or 20 years?

280
00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,000
Like, has that changed?

281
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,360
Like, if it hasn't, that's fine.

282
00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:20,640
But to me, it seems like there's so much more emphasis

283
00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:24,160
on kind of like the psychology of playing

284
00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:25,640
in the back country now.

285
00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,040
But like, when I first took an avi course a long time ago

286
00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:33,280
when I was like 19, it was all just like snow science.

287
00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:37,160
Yeah, I'd say that's an interesting one.

288
00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:39,880
And I don't know that I've seen necessarily a trend

289
00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:44,280
because client profiles are all over the board

290
00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:48,160
from 20 years ago when I started till now.

291
00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:52,760
I think now I might be more proficient at being

292
00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:57,440
able to sort of read people and maybe deliver them

293
00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:59,440
a better experience that's more tailored

294
00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:00,800
to what they're looking for.

295
00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:05,800
It's just, you know, it's incredibly different

296
00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,880
whether I'm taking out like a father and daughter

297
00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,480
on their first Alpine climb or if I'm taking out

298
00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,680
a long time ski client who we've done tons of trips

299
00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:17,680
and huts trips and long traverses

300
00:13:17,680 --> 00:13:19,440
and ski mountaineering objectives.

301
00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,400
So it's really hard to say, you know,

302
00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:26,880
the sort of the client profile has evolved over time.

303
00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:31,880
Although I would say that with social media

304
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,760
and, you know, ski movies being such a big thing and stuff,

305
00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,880
there is people tend to think that anytime,

306
00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:42,040
I guess, heliskings, an interesting one,

307
00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:46,080
I still get asked quite a lot by first time heliskiers,

308
00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:48,080
am I gonna have to jump out of the helicopter?

309
00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,400
And you're like, oh my God, don't please do not jump

310
00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:52,360
out of the helicopter.

311
00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:54,640
We have a problem with your bailing.

312
00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:56,360
Yeah, if you're jumping out of the helicopter,

313
00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,200
I better have already jumped out of the helicopter.

314
00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:01,480
You'd better be chasing me.

315
00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:05,720
So, you know, because people just have so much more access

316
00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,000
to media and stuff, I think there's an expectation

317
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:09,520
of what it might be out there.

318
00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,160
And I think that causes a lot of anxiety in people.

319
00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:13,320
And when you're like, no, no, no,

320
00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:14,920
we're gonna do nothing like that.

321
00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:16,040
You know, we're gonna go do this.

322
00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,920
A lot of people are like, oh, I'm so relieved.

323
00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,320
I don't, it doesn't have to be this, you know,

324
00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:22,880
huge debt-defying thing.

325
00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,440
Like we're not gonna go outrun avalanches all day long.

326
00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,040
That's not what we're trying to do out there.

327
00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:29,240
Oh my God. Interesting.

328
00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,400
Huh. Hey, Dave, I think this is a great line

329
00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,480
of questioning to hit Steve up with.

330
00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:40,400
Steve, for different groups, for clients,

331
00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:44,240
for guide candidates, you're teaching or examining,

332
00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:46,280
and then for colleagues,

333
00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,800
what are some of the silliest stuff you've seen?

334
00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,880
And I'll start off to give you a moment to think

335
00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:56,240
because one of the best things I ever saw was in Shominy.

336
00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:57,520
We're up there on the glacier,

337
00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:01,760
first day, second day in Krampons, pre-dawn start,

338
00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,600
and we're walking across the glacier all roped up.

339
00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:06,320
And then I hear on the radio,

340
00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:11,040
hey, you gotta check out the folks in the middle of the pack.

341
00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,600
And they had their Krampons with the points going upwards

342
00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,960
into the boot, and they had managed to strap them on

343
00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,920
securely, because we had been walking for like,

344
00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,920
I don't know, 800 meters, almost a kilometer in the dark.

345
00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,400
And it gave me a great deal of empathy

346
00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,000
because it was like, yeah, it was hilarious and funny,

347
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,520
but we all make silly goofy mistakes when we don't know.

348
00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:35,400
It's the full-on Dunning and Kruger effect.

349
00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,800
We don't know what we don't know, because no one told us.

350
00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:39,840
And I was like, well, that's on us as guides

351
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,320
because we didn't show them well enough

352
00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:44,240
how to put on their Krampons the day before

353
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,240
when we were practicing or having practiced enough

354
00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,240
so they could do it early in the morning at altitude

355
00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:50,800
in the dark when they're kind of like,

356
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,000
whoa, I'm kind of stressed and peeling the onion back.

357
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,800
So what's your greatest hits, highlights,

358
00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,880
the funny stuff that people have done with you in the mountains?

359
00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,120
I remember, and this is way back,

360
00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,520
I was still a new Avalanche course instructor.

361
00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:12,480
So this must be like, around the turn of a century,

362
00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:17,480
in the early 2000s, might have even been 2000 or 2001.

363
00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:20,760
And we do our two-hour classroom stint,

364
00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:22,480
make sure everybody's got all their gear.

365
00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:23,880
Everybody's like, yes, yes, yes,

366
00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:25,840
I have everything I need.

367
00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:27,360
This one guy has Alpine boots.

368
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:31,760
And I'm like, you got your ski set up and your skins,

369
00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:33,760
like everything's dialed, he's like, oh yeah, yeah,

370
00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:34,600
everything's good.

371
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,360
I'm like, okay, some people just go in their Alpine boots.

372
00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,000
To me, that's not an awesome thing to do,

373
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:41,640
but some people are gonna do that.

374
00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:43,840
Okay, we get out to the trailhead,

375
00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,120
everybody's putting their skins on, I'm looking around,

376
00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:48,160
I'm like, okay, it looks like everybody's good.

377
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,760
We click in, we go to do our beacon check.

378
00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:52,200
And he had skins, sure enough,

379
00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,440
and just put them right on the bottom of his Alpine rig

380
00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:56,760
with Alpine bindings that clicked right in.

381
00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:00,800
It was just gonna shuffle his way out to Abby Wundlain.

382
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,520
And I was like, oh, that is just not gonna work, buddy.

383
00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:05,360
Sorry.

384
00:17:05,360 --> 00:17:09,120
Actually, Steve, I can tell you, I'm sorry,

385
00:17:09,120 --> 00:17:10,880
this is like a one-upper.

386
00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:15,320
I saw a guy, a Danish guy, he was in tandem

387
00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:19,320
on the same itinerary as my group on the Oat Root.

388
00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:23,680
He skied from Chomany to Zerma in Alpine boots

389
00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,160
and Alpine bindings, unbelievable.

390
00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,720
Just shuffling along?

391
00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:34,720
I mean, he was in agony, and he was so physically destroyed,

392
00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,560
I was concerned that we were gonna have to call the chopper

393
00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,960
while you were skinning up, but he would just not quit.

394
00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:42,800
Talk about a crazy Viking.

395
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:44,600
And his friends were always cheering him on

396
00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,600
in the whole, like an hour behind,

397
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:49,320
and we'd all be just laying around,

398
00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,360
eating our lunch in the sun in the beautiful weather.

399
00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:56,360
He was just like, and he was groaning the whole...

400
00:17:56,360 --> 00:17:57,840
His hand must be blown out.

401
00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,240
Six, seven days.

402
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:01,760
I mean, it's that saying,

403
00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,880
you gotta be dumb, you better be tough.

404
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:06,920
And he was tough as nails.

405
00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:07,760
Yeah, right.

406
00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,240
Yeah, but all those kinds of experiences

407
00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:17,720
have led me down the path of like, never assume, right?

408
00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,520
Like with our clients, with our students,

409
00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:22,480
even with our back country partners,

410
00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,320
we have to go through everything so thoroughly

411
00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,400
and just not assume that we're all on the same page,

412
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:30,840
or we can't assume that we all know

413
00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:32,920
exactly what's going on.

414
00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:34,520
I mean, it still happens all the time, right?

415
00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:36,560
You're standing there on top of a slope with your partner,

416
00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,440
and you're like, hey, why don't you go first?

417
00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,160
And I think we should group up over by that tree.

418
00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:44,800
Everybody's like, yeah, yeah, we'll group up by that tree.

419
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:46,840
And then your partner starts skiing down,

420
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,000
and you're like, wow, they just went right past the tree

421
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,240
that I was talking about, they're way down there

422
00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:52,560
by that other tree.

423
00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:53,400
Okay.

424
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:59,160
Yeah, so we just have to be so clear about communication

425
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:00,840
and expectations when we're out there

426
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,320
to make sure that we're all firmly on the same page.

427
00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,200
And that's a lesson that you continue to learn.

428
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,880
And you're like, okay, maybe I need to learn

429
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:11,600
how to phrase things differently

430
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:13,760
or choose my words more carefully

431
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:16,360
so that people know exactly what it is

432
00:19:16,360 --> 00:19:19,120
that I'm talking about.

433
00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:26,520
One of the things I sort of semi-jokingly talk about

434
00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:31,440
when I'm teaching guide training stuff is that I always say,

435
00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:33,480
I want to make sure that I tell everybody

436
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,760
about any potential hazards or what they should do

437
00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:41,280
if for no other reason so that when the bad thing happens

438
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,680
or they did it wrong, I can say, hey, I told you.

439
00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:46,160
I told you there was a cliff there.

440
00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:49,560
I told you the snow was going to change or whatever it is.

441
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:51,760
Because that way it makes me feel more assured

442
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,240
that I did my part, I informed them,

443
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,480
I did everything I could to steer them away from that thing.

444
00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:59,800
And then some people just aren't going to get it

445
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,360
and they're still going to go there anyway.

446
00:20:02,360 --> 00:20:04,280
So I'm sure you guys have both,

447
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:05,800
I've heard some of Jeff's stories,

448
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,440
but you guys have both seen some pretty ridiculous,

449
00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:09,880
funny stuff.

450
00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,520
Have you seen some pretty goofy,

451
00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:14,520
I don't know if they're mishaps

452
00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:16,800
or just misunderstandings like amongst

453
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,320
when you're doing guide courses,

454
00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:21,280
compared to like just normies,

455
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:23,320
learning Abbey courses and that kind of stuff?

456
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,440
Yeah, that still happens.

457
00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,600
It's an interesting thing when people get into guide courses

458
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,800
and I always try to think back to where I was

459
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:38,960
when I started doing my guide trainings

460
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:43,960
and remember that I was out of my depth at times too.

461
00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:49,480
Because it's not fair just to be like,

462
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:50,680
oh my God, you're an idiot.

463
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:52,160
Like there's no way you can be a guide.

464
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,680
Like I was that idiot 20 years ago

465
00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:56,520
and I was trying to do stuff too, right?

466
00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:00,000
And often the students are just getting so overwhelmed

467
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:01,880
with so much new information.

468
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:03,480
They've maybe been traveling for a while

469
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,280
to get to wherever this course is

470
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,000
and they're feeling all this like social pressure

471
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:12,120
to perform and they just kind of do stupid things.

472
00:21:12,120 --> 00:21:15,960
I've climbed up to rock courses,

473
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:17,320
I've climbed up to anchors and been like,

474
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:19,320
oh my God, that's a terrifying anchor.

475
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:20,400
I can't believe you did that

476
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:25,400
or seen somebody completely load a belay device incorrectly

477
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:28,520
even though I know they know how to do it

478
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:30,320
and they've shown they know how to do it

479
00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,880
and then they just brain fart and don't do it

480
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:34,320
and they don't do it right.

481
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:38,000
And that's an important learning lesson for everyone

482
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,800
to make sure that you have to be double and triple

483
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:43,360
checking yourself all the time.

484
00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:46,520
We can't just assume, oh, I haven't taught how to do this

485
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,280
or I'm a guide now so I can do these things great.

486
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:52,680
We all make mistakes and miss things

487
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:54,920
and our minds wander and go somewhere else

488
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,920
and it's hard to be hyper vigilant all the time.

489
00:21:57,920 --> 00:21:59,720
And especially when we're doing something

490
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,480
that we're very accustomed to

491
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:04,800
or that we feel very comfortable with,

492
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,560
seems like that's when we really screw up stuff.

493
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,040
Lastly, a good buddy of mine who I've been his boss,

494
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,720
he's my boss now in one of my jobs,

495
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,760
but when we met, he came to Crested Butte

496
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:23,600
to do a level two avalanche course.

497
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:27,600
And I had arranged for us to get a snow cat ride

498
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:29,680
up towards Irwin so that we could get it deeper

499
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,120
into the back country and go further away.

500
00:22:32,120 --> 00:22:36,640
And we got up there and this is a guide level training

501
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,040
so I'm not like, does everybody have their undies on?

502
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:41,360
Everybody ready to go?

503
00:22:41,360 --> 00:22:44,280
You know, I'm not double checking everything.

504
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,560
And we get up there and in the transition

505
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,120
from cars to snow cat, he had put his ski boots

506
00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:52,400
in the snow bank and there they sat.

507
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:53,240
Yeah.

508
00:22:55,360 --> 00:22:58,040
This guy is an IFMGA guide now

509
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,640
and a great personal friend of mine

510
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,040
we work closely together.

511
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,000
We teach a lot of courses for special forces

512
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,320
and things like that, you know, dude's on his game.

513
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,040
And even back then he was pretty on his game,

514
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,800
but there's ski boots were in the snow bank.

515
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,720
So you got a 12,000 feet at summit at the ridge top

516
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:19,560
and he's like, oh, I better put my ski boots on.

517
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,400
It was like, oh no.

518
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,840
It was before, but yeah, like 10, five.

519
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:29,840
So a couple of years ago I was teaching a ski guide's course

520
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:32,800
for the AMGA and the San Juan's.

521
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:34,720
And I think what you were saying, Steve,

522
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,440
is like the cognitive fatigue.

523
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,920
Like we only have a certain number of decisions in us

524
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:44,520
at a day and so you want to have checklists to offload

525
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,320
and systems and frameworks to help you.

526
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,440
So you don't have to use as much brain power.

527
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,720
And we were firehosing the students so much

528
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,080
and the travel was a lot and conditions were really tricky.

529
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,360
So like really difficult pre-route planning

530
00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:02,800
and looking at weather forecasting models and stuff.

531
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,200
And they forgot the critical piece

532
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:06,960
for their splitboard bindings.

533
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:11,120
So they could skin, but they couldn't put it together.

534
00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:14,480
And she was just tough as nails and she's like, I'll be fine.

535
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:15,720
And I was like, what do you mean you're gonna be,

536
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,360
we're gonna be skiing 3000 vert at like 35 degrees

537
00:24:19,360 --> 00:24:21,440
on the anvil.

538
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:22,960
What are you talking about?

539
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:24,000
And she just did it.

540
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,240
And I was like, wow, okay, that was really impressive.

541
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:28,440
Way to like pull it together,

542
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,040
just use volet straps to like lock the heel down

543
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:36,320
and ski with the heel fixed on frozen corn to good corn

544
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:37,600
all the way down to the road.

545
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,240
I was just like, whoa, okay.

546
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,120
Nice. Damn.

547
00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:43,240
Good moves.

548
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:47,360
So this winter was something new for me.

549
00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:49,520
I decided to do something radically different

550
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,520
and I took a job with CMH up in Canada.

551
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:54,720
And it's very different for me

552
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,360
because I'm used to working with small groups,

553
00:24:57,360 --> 00:24:59,520
programs that I put together,

554
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,000
operations that I run tend to be on the smaller side.

555
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:03,920
And I was like, yeah, I'm gonna go work for the man.

556
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:05,880
Let's see how this goes.

557
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:06,720
And it was super cool.

558
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:07,560
Really quick.

559
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,680
Can you just tell what CMH is?

560
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,120
You don't know, Dave.

561
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:15,480
It's not about me, man.

562
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,240
It's about the 25 people who listen to this podcast.

563
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,240
They can also send me a text and ask.

564
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,080
CMH is Canadian Mountain Holidays.

565
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,920
It's the original pioneer of heli skiing.

566
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:33,120
It's the largest heli ski organization in the world, I think.

567
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:35,880
And they're pretty well known

568
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:37,840
for kind of having their shit together.

569
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:40,480
And I kind of wanted to go see what that was all about.

570
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:41,800
And I was super impressed.

571
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,920
I worked with a great team of guides that really,

572
00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:47,920
really had it together.

573
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:49,520
The organization in general,

574
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:53,800
like Top Down was really set in the bar.

575
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,120
And it takes a lot to impress me.

576
00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:56,400
Jeff knows that.

577
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,920
So I was pretty psyched to be joined in the team.

578
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,320
But one of the older members of our guide team,

579
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,480
he's been around there for a long time.

580
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,560
He, I know him and he doesn't know me,

581
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:10,800
but I know him as a mentor

582
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,880
because he has written papers for ISSW,

583
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:16,600
the International Snow Science Workshop.

584
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,320
He's done lots of avalanche research,

585
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:21,520
come up with new techniques

586
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:26,280
that most guide services now are employing on a daily basis.

587
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,000
And I was like, holy smokes, I get to work with him.

588
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:30,000
That's awesome.

589
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,160
And then we were swapping tails one day

590
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,240
and somebody had messed something up.

591
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:38,920
And it wasn't anything consequential.

592
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,360
I think it was something around the lodge or something like that.

593
00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:46,400
And he recounted this tale of getting his group

594
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,240
together, doing the beacon check,

595
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,920
loading into the helicopter, taking off,

596
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:52,400
and looking down and realizing

597
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,080
that he was still in his sorrells and not in his ski boots.

598
00:26:55,080 --> 00:27:00,640
And he was like, that's what I realized.

599
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,760
There's three ways to deal with a problem.

600
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,800
One, can I blame it on somebody else?

601
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,720
Nope, can't blame that on somebody else.

602
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,200
Two, can I make this work anyway?

603
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:14,840
Nope, definitely can't make this work.

604
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,400
Okay, number three, I got to own up to my mistake

605
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:18,600
and go back and fix it.

606
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:22,280
We had a good laugh out of that.

607
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:27,280
But the moral of the story was that often in the mountains

608
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,800
or in guiding when things are going sideways,

609
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,640
the tendency is to try to push through and make it work.

610
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:35,960
Like Jeff was just talking about,

611
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,320
like I can just knuckle down and make it work.

612
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,680
When really the right answer is, wait a minute,

613
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,000
well, let's go back to a known point in time here

614
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,640
where we can reset, make things right,

615
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:47,640
and then carry forward.

616
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,080
And when I think about some of the times

617
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,480
when I've had bad times in the mountains,

618
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,840
it's usually because I was unwilling to say,

619
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,480
oh, let's go back and reset.

620
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,720
And instead I was like, let's just keep pushing forward,

621
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:00,640
let's go.

622
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,360
Yeah, I mean, that's kind of a theme

623
00:28:03,360 --> 00:28:07,440
we've talked about a lot on here is just that trying to,

624
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,280
if you try to make something happen

625
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:11,320
when like all the signs are not working out

626
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:12,560
or not pointing in that direction,

627
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:16,040
like that is one of the most likely chances

628
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,560
that the real shit is gonna start.

629
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,880
Like if you keep kind of pursuing that direction,

630
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:24,800
I suppose.

631
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,600
But Jeff will probably remember this story.

632
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,840
This was a long time ago.

633
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,840
And should I be nervous?

634
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,000
Hey, is this about Jeff?

635
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,480
No, I think it reflects more poorly on me,

636
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:39,840
but maybe Jeff is wrong.

637
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,840
We used to do stupid things like the Grand Traverse race

638
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:47,440
that goes from Crested Butte to Aspen

639
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:49,640
in the middle of the night.

640
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:51,680
I don't know why we did that stuff,

641
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,400
but it was cool, I guess.

642
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,600
And I remember we had been training for that

643
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,040
and for us training usually just meant like,

644
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:01,640
it wasn't like it is now where people are like,

645
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,080
let's put on our skin suits and go hammer out some fur.

646
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:05,560
We would just go out and, you know,

647
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:07,560
like call it ski three big lines in a day

648
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:09,560
and that would be our training.

649
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,440
And a big storm had come through Crested Butte

650
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,000
and it was high danger.

651
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,360
And we were like, well, let's go out anyway.

652
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:16,880
It'll just be a training mission

653
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,200
and we'll just stay away from avalanches and stuff.

654
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,560
And so we start by going out the Gothic Valley

655
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,800
and we decided to do this big tour,

656
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,680
go out one valley around this pass

657
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:28,480
and back down the other valley.

658
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,280
And we looked at the maps and we identified

659
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:31,760
that there was some avalanche terrain,

660
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:33,560
but hey, we're aspiring guides.

661
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,080
We can outsmart this avalanche problem

662
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,080
and we'll figure it out when we get there,

663
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,120
even though it's high danger, right?

664
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,800
And this was a huge, as I reflect on it,

665
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,520
this was a huge learning point for me at least at the time.

666
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:50,560
So we go out, we left, I don't know when we left,

667
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,760
reasonably early in the day.

668
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,240
And we encountered this, you know,

669
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:56,960
we had already gone for several hours

670
00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,480
before now we encountered this first avalanche prone slope

671
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:01,760
that we have to cross.

672
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,160
And it was fairly small and quite manageable.

673
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,400
And we stood there and had a conversation about it.

674
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,200
We were like, what do you think?

675
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:09,360
And we were both like, well,

676
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,680
I think we'll probably trigger it,

677
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,080
but I think it'll also be very small

678
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:15,480
and it won't be a big deal.

679
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,480
Learning point number one came quickly into play.

680
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:21,280
I was like, well, I'll go first.

681
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:22,880
And I trucked out there and sure enough,

682
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,920
I triggered this small slope and the avalanche comes down.

683
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:27,160
And it was a little ankle biter.

684
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,240
It's like filling in around my boot tops.

685
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:30,920
And I'm kind of like, yeah, okay.

686
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:32,640
Turn my skis downhill and I'm kind of

687
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,600
tropping along with it, no big deal.

688
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,000
But the critical mistake I had is that

689
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,440
since we were training for this race,

690
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,280
I had different equipment than my normal backcountry setup.

691
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,080
So I had longer ski poles, more like Nordic ski poles,

692
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:48,920
with large baskets on it.

693
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,440
And I put my hands through the wrist straps,

694
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,080
which I never do when I'm skiing an avalanche train.

695
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,000
But because my mindset was in,

696
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,800
we're training for this race that we do kind of in

697
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,280
backcountry slash Nordic fashion,

698
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,880
I put my hands through the ski straps.

699
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,280
Well, when the moving snow caught the larger baskets

700
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,840
of my ski poles and I couldn't let go of them,

701
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:13,960
it pulled me right down on my face.

702
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:15,760
And it was super slow motion.

703
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,640
This small avalanche that I was kind of chuckling about.

704
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,520
And all of a sudden I'm pulled down fully prone,

705
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,360
face down in the snow, pointed downhill,

706
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,000
got completely buried.

707
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,880
I wasn't buried by much because I could kind of

708
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,840
wiggle my head and Jeff could see that snow moving.

709
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,120
And so that's how he knew where I was and came over

710
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:35,960
and I'm buried.

711
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,840
My feet were still buried a couple of feet down,

712
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:39,680
but I couldn't move.

713
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:41,520
I was stuffed in there.

714
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,320
Even though I was barely covered by snow,

715
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,440
if Jeff hadn't dug me out,

716
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,400
I'd surely would have suffocated in it.

717
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,600
And but he pulls me out, digs me out,

718
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:51,440
dusts me off.

719
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:53,840
And we're like, that was funny.

720
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:54,800
Okay, lesson learned.

721
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:56,520
I'll take my pole straps off.

722
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:57,720
Should we go back?

723
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,040
Nah, let's keep going.

724
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,040
Oh my God.

725
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:02,880
Yeah.

726
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:04,120
And that was like the first,

727
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,240
like that probably wasn't even a point that we had identified

728
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:08,680
where we were going to have trouble

729
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:09,840
with the avalanche problem.

730
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,080
We were like, let's just keep moving.

731
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:14,680
Like we're a third of the way through it.

732
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,040
Let's just keep going.

733
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:17,040
Let's keep going.

734
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:18,840
What else could possibly happen?

735
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,840
So we keep on going and it's high danger.

736
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:26,680
It sounded like the laser guns in Star Wars.

737
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,240
Like, pew, pew, like a blaster.

738
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,840
Cause that was the sound of the collapses.

739
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:33,040
It was so distinct.

740
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,440
It was like someone taking a hammer to a guy wire

741
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,560
for a telephone pole under tension and going,

742
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:39,880
bang, pew, pew.

743
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:41,040
What?

744
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:42,040
It was wild.

745
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:43,640
All of the signs were there

746
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:45,840
and we were recognizing all the signs and being like,

747
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,440
oh yeah, man, super touchy out here, right?

748
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:50,440
But we're avalanche professionals.

749
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,040
We can navigate around this.

750
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:53,040
No problem.

751
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:54,240
Well, out smart of problem.

752
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:55,240
Not yet.

753
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:56,240
Not yet.

754
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:57,240
We weren't quite there.

755
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,240
Nobody was paying me to make decisions.

756
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:01,240
Thank God.

757
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,240
You were on your way.

758
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:04,240
Aspiring.

759
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,240
So we continue, we continue on further up the valley.

760
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,240
And then Jeff, I can't even remember what mountain it was,

761
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,240
but I believe in my mind, it's cinnamon.

762
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,240
I'm not entirely sure.

763
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,240
We come out of the corner and we're starting to get close

764
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,240
to the place where we were like, yeah, that's going to be

765
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,240
the tricky point that we're going to have to navigate.

766
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,240
Like we're going to have to go through avalanche train

767
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:27,240
at this point.

768
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,240
And so we're approaching that point.

769
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,240
We're starting to feel more ominous.

770
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:32,240
It's deep snow.

771
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,240
Travel had been tricky.

772
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:35,240
I already got buried.

773
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:36,240
So that ate up some time.

774
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,240
So it's like later in the day that we expected.

775
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:44,240
And we remotely trigger from very far away this massive avalanche.

776
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:48,240
Like literally a whole mountain.

777
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,240
We were on the valley floor and we were about to have to cross

778
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,240
the run out in the flats.

779
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,240
And everywhere we went, we were getting that.

780
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,240
And I just started jumping up and down in one place.

781
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,240
And Steve looks at me like I'm some sort of fucking idiot.

782
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,240
And then it remotely triggers from me jumping up and down in

783
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,240
place from the summit all the way to the valley floor.

784
00:34:08,240 --> 00:34:10,240
It was so cool.

785
00:34:10,240 --> 00:34:14,240
And you guys just happened to be totally out of the run out zone.

786
00:34:14,240 --> 00:34:15,240
Yeah.

787
00:34:15,240 --> 00:34:16,240
Yeah. We were lucky.

788
00:34:16,240 --> 00:34:19,240
Luckily for us, it was touchy enough that we were able to trigger

789
00:34:19,240 --> 00:34:22,240
it from really far away.

790
00:34:22,240 --> 00:34:27,240
And so after that thing, Rad, we were kind of like, okay,

791
00:34:27,240 --> 00:34:30,240
I think now we need to readjust.

792
00:34:30,240 --> 00:34:33,240
And we should probably go back.

793
00:34:33,240 --> 00:34:36,240
And so now we got to go back, which is a good thing.

794
00:34:36,240 --> 00:34:38,240
Because as I think about it now, Jeff, we, you know,

795
00:34:38,240 --> 00:34:40,240
we were going to have to go through Paradise divide across that

796
00:34:40,240 --> 00:34:42,240
slope under Baldy.

797
00:34:42,240 --> 00:34:44,240
No way.

798
00:34:44,240 --> 00:34:46,240
No way. There's no way.

799
00:34:46,240 --> 00:34:47,240
Yeah.

800
00:34:47,240 --> 00:34:49,240
Hopefully we would recognize that.

801
00:34:49,240 --> 00:34:51,240
That's your way out of there.

802
00:34:51,240 --> 00:34:55,240
Yeah. That was the slope that we had been like, well,

803
00:34:55,240 --> 00:34:57,240
that's the one we're going to have to use our superpowers to

804
00:34:57,240 --> 00:35:00,240
navigate around.

805
00:35:00,240 --> 00:35:02,240
So we turn around and go back.

806
00:35:02,240 --> 00:35:04,240
Paper.

807
00:35:04,240 --> 00:35:05,240
Yeah.

808
00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:08,240
So you got to use a little hard reader, like a credit card,

809
00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:10,240
but it's translucent plastic.

810
00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:14,240
And the lines show you approximately they,

811
00:35:14,240 --> 00:35:19,240
they line up the gaps between the lines on the card lines up on

812
00:35:19,240 --> 00:35:22,240
the topo map, the USGS topo map.

813
00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:25,240
And you guess at about what the slope angle is.

814
00:35:25,240 --> 00:35:29,240
And we're like, I think we can keep it like right around 30,

815
00:35:29,240 --> 00:35:33,240
31, 32 in the steep areas. I don't know.

816
00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:35,240
It's hard to tell.

817
00:35:35,240 --> 00:35:38,240
So it's a totally antiquated system where you're like,

818
00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:41,240
I don't really know what we're getting into based on the map,

819
00:35:41,240 --> 00:35:43,240
but I think it might go.

820
00:35:43,240 --> 00:35:45,240
And it's like that.

821
00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:49,240
Yeah.

822
00:35:49,240 --> 00:35:51,240
Okay. Yeah. Okay. Gotcha.

823
00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:54,240
I'm getting a better picture of just how, uh,

824
00:35:54,240 --> 00:35:56,240
how dicey this was.

825
00:35:56,240 --> 00:35:58,240
I have that card reader somewhere around here.

826
00:35:58,240 --> 00:36:01,240
I just, I just encountered it in one of my notebooks.

827
00:36:01,240 --> 00:36:04,240
It was like, why do I still have this thing?

828
00:36:04,240 --> 00:36:07,240
The thing that makes you go cross-eyed looking at it because

829
00:36:07,240 --> 00:36:10,240
you're squinting so hard to try to see the relationship.

830
00:36:10,240 --> 00:36:12,240
And in my mind, we finally, at this point,

831
00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:15,240
we finally go, okay, well, we better turn around.

832
00:36:15,240 --> 00:36:18,240
That was like the obvious sign from the heavens.

833
00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:20,240
We get the heck out of here.

834
00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:23,240
So we turn around and go back and we still have to negotiate like

835
00:36:23,240 --> 00:36:26,240
these tight little spots where you're just,

836
00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:29,240
you're in these train traps surrounded by avalanche train.

837
00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:32,240
It's just continuing to puke snows.

838
00:36:32,240 --> 00:36:35,240
And our conditions are worse than when we came through it the first time.

839
00:36:35,240 --> 00:36:37,240
Our tracks are pretty much gone.

840
00:36:37,240 --> 00:36:40,240
And I remember Jeff, we were back by the plug and we were like,

841
00:36:40,240 --> 00:36:42,240
oh, shit. And I don't know why.

842
00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:45,240
I think, I think he made some statement like, well,

843
00:36:45,240 --> 00:36:48,240
I'm the older brothers. Like, yes, I'll go first.

844
00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:50,240
We're both just like,

845
00:36:50,240 --> 00:36:52,240
surely we're going to try this.

846
00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:55,240
But we made it through. We got back to Gothic.

847
00:36:55,240 --> 00:36:58,240
This was now it's been dark for like hours by the time we get back

848
00:36:58,240 --> 00:36:59,240
to the Gothic town site.

849
00:36:59,240 --> 00:37:00,240
We're back to the city.

850
00:37:00,240 --> 00:37:01,240
We're back to the city.

851
00:37:01,240 --> 00:37:02,240
We're back to the city.

852
00:37:02,240 --> 00:37:03,240
We're back to the city.

853
00:37:03,240 --> 00:37:04,240
We're back to the city.

854
00:37:04,240 --> 00:37:05,240
We're back to the city.

855
00:37:05,240 --> 00:37:06,240
We're back to the city.

856
00:37:06,240 --> 00:37:07,240
We're back to the city.

857
00:37:07,240 --> 00:37:10,240
So I think we're going to get back to the site.

858
00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:11,240
We're going to get back to the city.

859
00:37:11,240 --> 00:37:13,240
But we're going to get back to the city.

860
00:37:13,240 --> 00:37:15,240
Before we get back to the city,

861
00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:16,240
I was talking about that.

862
00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:17,240
Despite some of those numbers,

863
00:37:17,240 --> 00:37:19,240
but it's time to get back to the Gothic town.

864
00:37:19,240 --> 00:37:20,240
So we see it.

865
00:37:20,240 --> 00:37:23,240
A light on up on the hillside in one of the cabins.

866
00:37:23,240 --> 00:37:26,240
And some of those cabins have phones and we were like,

867
00:37:26,240 --> 00:37:28,240
we should probably go and call and tell people that we're okay.

868
00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:29,240
Because we were.

869
00:37:29,240 --> 00:37:30,240
If you're not,

870
00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:33,240
if we were supposed to get picked up on the other side or what.

871
00:37:33,240 --> 00:37:35,240
Anyway, we're, we're like, you know, hours late.

872
00:37:35,240 --> 00:37:36,240
We've been moving in the dark for probably three hours at this

873
00:37:36,240 --> 00:37:38,240
Can we use your phone?

874
00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:44,520
Call and my buddy had actually had gotten worried enough that he was just loading up

875
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:46,720
his snowmobile to come out and start looking for us.

876
00:37:46,720 --> 00:37:49,720
And I don't know where the hell he was going to go and look for us anyway.

877
00:37:49,720 --> 00:37:54,120
Dude, I'm not even able to get anywhere.

878
00:37:54,120 --> 00:38:00,720
But as I reflect on that, and this is often, I don't tell the whole entire story, but

879
00:38:00,720 --> 00:38:05,560
it's often a point I try to make with people is that just because you learn more, it doesn't

880
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,840
mean that you can outsmart the avalanche problem.

881
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:15,000
Because a lot of people feel like, you know, they take a level one avalanche course and

882
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,400
then they go out there and they're still super uncertain.

883
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,200
They're like, I don't know, am I making good decisions or not?

884
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,480
Can I go ski a bigger line today or not?

885
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,280
I really want to go ski these big mountains, but I don't know if I have the skills.

886
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,720
Oh, I know, I'll go take a level two course.

887
00:38:29,720 --> 00:38:32,760
They take a level two course and they learn some more stuff.

888
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:36,960
And then they're still like, well, I don't really feel super confident.

889
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:38,840
I don't feel like I know everything.

890
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,840
I want to be able to, you know, outrun the dragon.

891
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:46,040
And so then they're like, even though they're not trying to be a ski patrol or a guide or

892
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:50,120
something, maybe they go and take a pro level course thinking that then they'll learn the

893
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:51,120
answers.

894
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,600
And it's like, you know what, you're never going to learn the answers.

895
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,840
There's just times when you just cannot be an avalanche.

896
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,160
You just can't and you shouldn't be close to it.

897
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,120
There's times when you can start to tow that line a little bit.

898
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:07,360
But you also have to start to understand when is the right time to do that and when is the

899
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:12,200
right time to do that for me is totally different than it is for the right time to do it for

900
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,920
Jeff or for you, Dave or for different people.

901
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,320
You see it all the time, especially around here in Crested View where people are sending

902
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,360
big lines and I'm like, I'm not doing that.

903
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:28,080
And it's not because they have more avalanche education than I do.

904
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,280
Arguably, they have far less.

905
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,680
And it's not because I'm not a good enough skier.

906
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,760
And it's not because they're making stupid decisions.

907
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:45,360
It's just that that's where their risk assessment and acceptance of that risk is just different

908
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:46,360
than mine.

909
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,800
And so that's always an interesting thing to go about.

910
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,000
And it's going to be different even with guides, right?

911
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:55,920
Some guides are going to push a little bit harder.

912
00:39:55,920 --> 00:40:01,800
I know guides who I have clients who don't want to go with them because they feel like

913
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,360
that guide pushes too hard.

914
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:09,560
And on the flip side, I know guides that clients don't like to go with because they're like,

915
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:13,160
wow, that guide is like way too conservative for what I want to do.

916
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:17,400
So everybody kind of needs to find their own niche in that.

917
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,400
People ask me all the time, you know, like the difference between skiing in different

918
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,960
areas, you know, what's the skiing like in Japan?

919
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:25,080
What's it like in Canada?

920
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,880
What's it like in Alaska, Iceland, South America, all these different things?

921
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:33,000
And a lot of it comes down to which operation or guides are you going with and what type

922
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,000
of experience is offered.

923
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,560
And it's going to match differently with different people.

924
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:42,600
And same with guides as far as like operations that they might want to work with.

925
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:48,000
I've worked for operations where I'm like the risk tolerance of this ski operation is

926
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,080
higher than what I'm comfortable with.

927
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:52,000
And I don't like being pushed that hard.

928
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:53,480
And so I just don't want to work there anymore.

929
00:40:53,480 --> 00:41:00,040
I'm going to go someplace that's more conservative or aligns more with how I feel and the team

930
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:01,040
jives better.

931
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:05,960
That was one of the things I really appreciated at CMH is that as a team, you know, I was

932
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,040
a new guy to the team.

933
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:15,040
And as the team, it was like everything really jived like the pace, the risk tolerance, how

934
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,840
we liked things to flow throughout the day.

935
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,720
I felt like I fit into that quite nicely and it felt comfortable to me.

936
00:41:21,720 --> 00:41:25,840
I didn't ever feel like I was being pushed to go faster, to go higher, to go bigger or

937
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:26,840
anything like that.

938
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:32,200
And to me, that's something that's super important, whether it's just my ski partners or the operation

939
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,160
that I'm working for or the other guides that I'm around.

940
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:39,840
I don't ever want to feel like I'm being pushed to do things that I don't want to do.

941
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:44,720
To go back a bit, Steve, I think you're talking about risk homeostasis.

942
00:41:44,720 --> 00:41:50,640
It's like I'm driving a beat up old Chevy Gremlin, you know, that's like a death trap

943
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:51,960
and driving really cool.

944
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:52,960
Or Pinto.

945
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,640
Yeah, Pinto, Gremlin, same thing.

946
00:41:55,640 --> 00:42:03,320
And versus, you know, a Volvo with airbags all around with studded Haka, Polita tires.

947
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:07,360
And I'm like, yeah, I'm going to do 65 in this blizzard because there's nothing coming.

948
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,120
Why not?

949
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:14,000
And we often see that where folks are like, why are you here for your level two Avalanche

950
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:15,000
course?

951
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,520
They're like, because I want to send the NAR in Colorado midwinter.

952
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:25,240
And you're like, oh, sorry, you're going to have a short but exciting life.

953
00:42:25,240 --> 00:42:26,520
Yeah.

954
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:27,520
Is that common?

955
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:32,600
Like, I mean, I grew up in Colorado, so I think I just have a skewed view on this.

956
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:38,320
But when people are going into Abbey courses, like, is that something you still get a lot?

957
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:43,080
I would just think like at this point enough people know how dangerous and like how unpredictable

958
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:49,520
it is that there would be less of that, but am I totally off on that?

959
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:55,800
You know, I sort of think that it's a it's a symptom of the Avalanche phenomenon and

960
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,120
the uncertainty that we just deal with.

961
00:42:58,120 --> 00:42:59,120
Right.

962
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:04,040
And so, Dave, Dave, what's your Avalanche education?

963
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:05,040
What have you done?

964
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:11,320
I've taken two level ones and I hang out with Jeff with too much.

965
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,160
You're the remedial student.

966
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,000
You had to go back and repeat it.

967
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:16,560
Yeah, what?

968
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:21,800
So to be honest, I took one way back in the day and then I was like skiing professionally

969
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,480
doing like park half pipe stuff.

970
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:31,000
And in that time, I had several friends who were very, very like knowledgeable in the

971
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,600
back country who got killed by Avalanches.

972
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,600
So I was like, nope, there's no fucking way.

973
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:42,760
Like they are literally so much far so much further beyond me with their education and

974
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:44,040
their awareness in the back country.

975
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:48,640
Like I don't have a chance if they got smoke, I don't have a chance.

976
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:53,840
And so it really wasn't until start hanging out with Jeff and we started talking about

977
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:58,000
aspect of you more and like kind of seeing it from more of a data driven approach and

978
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:05,160
more of a like, hey, rather than put all the focus on how to rescue your friend, which

979
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,720
I thought Larry put Larry was on like last podcast.

980
00:44:07,720 --> 00:44:08,720
He put it so well.

981
00:44:08,720 --> 00:44:10,400
He's like, that should be like CPR.

982
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:14,800
We should like, you should have those skills, but that should be the absolute last resort,

983
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:16,200
which is the way I always felt.

984
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:24,920
I was like, I want to know, like give me the data so I can just like go enjoy myself.

985
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:28,320
And then like, I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to get super gnarly.

986
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:33,600
Like those days are behind me, but let's take that CPR analogy for a quick bend right

987
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:34,600
here.

988
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:35,600
Okay.

989
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:42,680
How come, how come if I want to guide in the US, I have to have a permit and part of being

990
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:48,960
having that permit, I have to have a first aid course and CPR in case somebody's dying

991
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:53,440
on me, but I don't have to actually be trained as a guide to prevent somebody from dying

992
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:54,440
on me.

993
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:55,440
Yeah.

994
00:44:55,440 --> 00:45:01,160
And I find avalanche education is often the same.

995
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:05,080
People want to play with their sexy beacons and shovels and probes and like, how fast

996
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:06,600
can you find three beacons?

997
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:08,600
And I'm like, I don't really care.

998
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:15,440
I'd rather focus on how fast can I make decisions so that I don't need to use my beacon.

999
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:17,920
Totally.

1000
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:22,360
But the point I was going to make before that when I was asking about your avalanche education,

1001
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:27,960
after you took your second level one, do you feel like you walked out of there feeling

1002
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,880
very confident that now you can go ski big lines?

1003
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:33,320
No, absolutely not.

1004
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:39,320
And I actually like a huge, a huge reason that I'm involved in this project is I feel

1005
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:44,440
like, and this is just straight up because I've talked to people my age who say this,

1006
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:54,160
they're like, yeah, I take this training and I feel like I like have some sort of qualification

1007
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:55,160
now.

1008
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:57,440
But when I really dive into it, I don't actually know what's going on.

1009
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,080
But I feel the exact same way.

1010
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:01,360
Yeah.

1011
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:09,080
And I think that's why people continually strive to find more avalanche education.

1012
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:14,280
And really the level one course, the goal of the level one course when, when Aries sort

1013
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,680
of started putting these parameters around things and saying, this is what a level one

1014
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:22,560
avalanche course is, what they stated at that time, and it still rings true, is that a level

1015
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:26,560
one course is a standalone, this is everything you need to know about avalanches.

1016
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:33,640
And everything beyond that is like mostly geeky science stuff.

1017
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:36,280
Most people don't need to know.

1018
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:41,800
And that led into the pro track and the rec track split that happened in the last few

1019
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:47,160
years, an avalanche education, which was definitely needed.

1020
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:48,760
But it's not like math, right?

1021
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,240
If you go, math is very cut and dry.

1022
00:46:51,240 --> 00:46:53,760
A plus B equals C, no matter what.

1023
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:56,440
That's how it is.

1024
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:59,440
And so, which is why, which is why I like math and high school.

1025
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:00,440
I like cool.

1026
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:01,440
The answer is the answer.

1027
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:03,880
That works for me.

1028
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:07,200
But people want the same out of their avalanche education, right?

1029
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:11,280
How many times do I hit the shovel before I know that I can go ski this slope?

1030
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:12,800
Well, it doesn't work that way.

1031
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:16,520
Well, how many degrees above zero is okay before avalanche?

1032
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:18,960
Well, it doesn't work that way, right?

1033
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:21,120
And so people are continuing to look for that answer.

1034
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:25,720
And it's not like math where if you get an A on the test, you know how to do math, right?

1035
00:47:25,720 --> 00:47:30,120
It's not like if you get an A on your avalanche test, well, you're never going to die in an

1036
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:31,120
avalanche.

1037
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:36,800
And statistically speaking, most people who die in avalanches have avalanche education.

1038
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:40,040
So it's not like they weren't aware.

1039
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:41,520
But it's just a tricky thing.

1040
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:44,160
Like there's no cut and dry answers.

1041
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:48,480
I've seen plenty of avalanches that I go, why?

1042
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:50,000
That doesn't make sense to me.

1043
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:51,360
Why did that one avalanche?

1044
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:52,360
And that one didn't.

1045
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:54,520
I don't get it.

1046
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:57,720
I left Canada had a real bad season this year.

1047
00:47:57,720 --> 00:47:59,160
It was just it didn't snow.

1048
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:00,160
It got super warm.

1049
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:04,000
It rained really high and then it snowed and then it sat.

1050
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:06,360
And so that surface snow turned into facets.

1051
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,400
And then right when I left, it started nuking.

1052
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:12,040
Places got like a meter to two meters of snow.

1053
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:17,320
And that's all sitting on top of, you know, 15 to 30 centimeters of facets on top of a

1054
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:18,320
stout crust.

1055
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:21,960
And, you know, when we're seeing the weather forecast, everybody's like, oh, great.

1056
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:25,480
Now finally snowing in the world is going to fall down.

1057
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:26,880
Perfect.

1058
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:32,880
And I saw this video from a heli ski operation where they were skiing this slope here.

1059
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:40,600
And this was the video is from a client with a GoPro on and they stopped and regrouped.

1060
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:44,160
They're in trees, pretty thick dense trees.

1061
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:47,160
Moderate angle certainly didn't look steep.

1062
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:53,440
Somebody drops in to ski the next pitch down and then you see this giant powder cloud on

1063
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:54,840
an adjacent slope.

1064
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:55,840
Right.

1065
00:48:55,840 --> 00:49:00,160
And it's like, okay, so remote trigger, they triggered it from here and it's slid over there.

1066
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:05,760
You look at the terrain and there's no huge drastic difference that you would say, oh,

1067
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,560
I can see why that slid and that did it.

1068
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:14,840
Like the change was very subtle, slightly more open trees, slightly steeper.

1069
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:20,000
But that's after like going back and really deciphering that terrain.

1070
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:25,800
So sometimes these differences in what's safe and what isn't are super subtle.

1071
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:27,680
And sometimes I'm still baffled by it.

1072
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:30,080
Like I don't know why that slid and that didn't.

1073
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:32,120
Or I don't know why that didn't slide.

1074
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:35,320
I would have thought that that would slide and it didn't.

1075
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:38,560
So it just doesn't always make sense in the avalanche world.

1076
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:41,600
It's not perfect math by any means.

1077
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:46,320
Yeah, and to be fair, I think we've said a few times on here, various different guests,

1078
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:53,080
but like there's a lot of, I don't know, how do you say it, Jeff, where even when you

1079
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:56,160
do the wrong thing, sometimes you get away with it.

1080
00:49:56,160 --> 00:50:00,240
So how are you supposed to, like how, how then are you going to know that it was actually

1081
00:50:00,240 --> 00:50:02,040
the wrong thing to do if you got away with it?

1082
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:03,760
It's a wicked learning environment.

1083
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:05,600
We don't get direct feedback.

1084
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:09,480
Like if you're playing chess or checkers, and Steve and I are playing checkers and I

1085
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:13,880
make a bad move, he's going to take my checker and I'm like, Oh, I got feedback and I can

1086
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:14,880
learn from that.

1087
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:19,640
But like what Steve described, even for the experts, you're like, Oh, high danger day.

1088
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:21,400
I can't believe that didn't slide.

1089
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:26,120
And we just threw 20 pounds of Ampho on that and blew the hell out of that slope and it

1090
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:27,320
didn't go.

1091
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:28,720
How was that possible?

1092
00:50:28,720 --> 00:50:29,720
Yeah.

1093
00:50:29,720 --> 00:50:30,720
You don't get the feedback.

1094
00:50:30,720 --> 00:50:31,720
I got another question for you, Steve.

1095
00:50:31,720 --> 00:50:35,960
I'm not going to, I'm not going to ask you like what the skiing is like all over the

1096
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:36,960
world.

1097
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:41,120
I mean, you made me think of something and Jeff, you can chime in on this too.

1098
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:45,280
When you go to guide in different places like you mentioned Iceland and Canada and stuff,

1099
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:50,320
obviously those are all going to have just inherently different snow packs.

1100
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:54,680
Is there a bit of a learning curve or do you have to kind of jump back into a different

1101
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:57,200
mindset for each place that you go tour?

1102
00:50:57,200 --> 00:50:59,440
Like, what's the process of that?

1103
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:01,120
Yeah, for sure.

1104
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:05,040
And you know, what's interesting and I get asked this all the time, like, Oh, you're

1105
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:06,040
from Colorado.

1106
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,160
You guys have great snow and mountains.

1107
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:09,160
Why don't you guide there?

1108
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:15,320
And I'm like, well, because the Avalanche Dragon is real big and nasty in Colorado.

1109
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:18,040
And in Japan, it's like this cute little fur ball.

1110
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:20,040
That's not so big of a deal.

1111
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:21,040
Totally.

1112
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:30,840
A lot of the places that I've chosen to go have much less challenging snow packs than

1113
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:32,600
Colorado does.

1114
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:37,640
They're not notorious for consistently having persistent week layers.

1115
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:41,000
And when they do pop up, it tends to be much more of a big deal.

1116
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:43,440
You know, it's like, Oh my gosh, there's a persistent week layer.

1117
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:45,120
And I'm like, Oh, that's a cute little thing.

1118
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:46,560
It'll probably heal in a couple of days.

1119
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:48,240
It'll be all right.

1120
00:51:48,240 --> 00:51:52,240
It's not like what we see in Colorado where it's like, Yep, there's our basal facets.

1121
00:51:52,240 --> 00:51:54,840
I guess we'll deal with that for the next five months.

1122
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:59,440
So yeah, and then like three more layers of it.

1123
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:01,320
Yeah, exactly.

1124
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:02,320
Exactly.

1125
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,760
But yes, there is, there is a learning curve.

1126
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:13,040
And I've always tried to schedule myself both for my own personal wants and desires that

1127
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:18,320
what I show up somewhere, I like to be able to ski for myself personally, go someplace

1128
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:23,840
I haven't checked out yet, maybe try, you know, a different mountain range or different

1129
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:25,480
place that I haven't seen yet.

1130
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,920
But it also gives me a time to assimilate to the snowpack and figure out what's going

1131
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:29,920
on.

1132
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:35,080
You know, and one of the big things we talk about, you know, home or whatever your backyard

1133
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:37,680
is, is you can't just take that snapshot, right?

1134
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:42,480
You can't say, Hey, I'm going to go, I want to go back country skiing next weekend.

1135
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,240
So on Friday, I'm going to start looking at the ablanche bulletin.

1136
00:52:45,240 --> 00:52:47,400
It's like, no, you got to watch this thing.

1137
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:51,800
You got to track it throughout the season, see what the trends are, see what's happening,

1138
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:55,760
is it improving, is it degrading, you know, what's happening.

1139
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:58,000
So I do the same thing when I'm traveling.

1140
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:00,840
I'm getting ready to head to Iceland.

1141
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:05,480
What's today Monday on, I guess I leave on Thursday, so we better wrap this up so I can

1142
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:09,720
start getting my other important things done before I leave.

1143
00:53:09,720 --> 00:53:13,120
But I've been following the weather over there for the past three weeks, you know, paying

1144
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:15,200
attention to what's going on.

1145
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:17,600
I've got some other guide friends who are in the area.

1146
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:21,520
There's a guy I know who does ablanche education all over.

1147
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:25,560
And this is the second year in a row that he's shown up in Iceland two weeks before

1148
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:31,520
I do and starts doing this ablanche stuff and starts posting all these videos online.

1149
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:35,440
And so I make sure to follow him and pay attention because I'm like, great, he's out there digging

1150
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:36,440
pits for me.

1151
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:40,400
Like, why wouldn't I watch this stuff and get this information?

1152
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:45,240
So I'm just inferring it all the time, even when I'm not there to track these trends,

1153
00:53:45,240 --> 00:53:46,240
see what's going on.

1154
00:53:46,240 --> 00:53:49,600
So when I show up, I'm not just like completely in the dark.

1155
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,080
It's kind of the same tactic as here, right?

1156
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:53,800
Like you got to pay attention all the time.

1157
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:57,160
If you're going to a bunch of different places, you got to pay attention, even if I'm going

1158
00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:01,480
to go down to the San Juan's in Colorado, if I know I have a trip coming up down there,

1159
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:04,640
I guess they're paying attention to what's happening down there.

1160
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:09,120
Yeah, I've just made a point now of every morning when I wake up, instead of getting

1161
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:14,080
on Instagram, it's like first thing I look at is aspect to have even see like what's

1162
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:20,720
going on and just like try to make that the morning habit to keep track of like over the

1163
00:54:20,720 --> 00:54:21,720
time.

1164
00:54:21,720 --> 00:54:27,480
Yeah, and it's nice to have that sort of one stop shop clearinghouse like aspect to

1165
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:30,520
have you where you can be like, okay, I just need to look at this one thing.

1166
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:34,880
I don't have to look at, you know, an avalanche bulletin and a weather site and this thing

1167
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:35,880
and that thing.

1168
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:39,560
It's like, I can just look at one resource that tells me the majority of what I want

1169
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:40,560
to know.

1170
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:42,720
It's nice to have that in your pocket.

1171
00:54:42,720 --> 00:54:43,720
Highly aggregated.

1172
00:54:43,720 --> 00:54:44,720
Totally.

1173
00:54:44,720 --> 00:54:45,720
Whatever that means.

1174
00:54:45,720 --> 00:54:52,720
I like it better when it puts all the pieces together for me.

1175
00:54:52,720 --> 00:54:54,240
That's right.

1176
00:54:54,240 --> 00:55:00,920
Jeff, do you got anything else you want to talk to your brother about?

1177
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:03,440
What kind of mood you're in before you cut my hair?

1178
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:08,440
Because sometimes you're a little salty and it gets, I just feel like it's retribution

1179
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:14,080
for our childhood squabbles and like, I don't know how the hair is going to come out and

1180
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:20,800
you're a little bit rough and it's this constant like verbal diarrhea of how it's not going

1181
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:23,120
well and oh geez, I don't know about this.

1182
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:27,040
Maybe we should just shave it all off and you should go for the bald look.

1183
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:30,480
You know what I think it comes down to is how many times in the past week you've bugged

1184
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:35,280
me about cutting your hair.

1185
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:38,200
So you might want to take that into consideration.

1186
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:40,640
It's getting like the wings are coming out.

1187
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:42,640
It's like flaps down.

1188
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:44,640
I understand.

1189
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:46,080
So to me, that means get rid of the wings.

1190
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:47,080
Take it all off.

1191
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:48,080
I got it.

1192
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:49,080
No problem.

1193
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:50,080
I do have one question.

1194
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:53,480
I think it's time for Jeff to do like a proper business mullet.

1195
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:56,160
Oh, oh, interesting.

1196
00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:57,160
Okay.

1197
00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:08,040
So Steve, both you and I share a very healthy appreciation of the absurd and we often people

1198
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:10,720
get people give us feedback to say, Hey, I can't tell if you're kidding or not.

1199
00:56:10,720 --> 00:56:12,760
And we're like, Oh, sorry, I'm kidding.

1200
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:16,960
Most of the time, I imagine there's going to be a bunch of students in the AMGA who are

1201
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:22,120
going to watch this to try to get insights and how to manage you as their examiner on

1202
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:25,560
their their next exam or course.

1203
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:30,320
You got any anything you want to say to those students out there who are trying to game

1204
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:36,200
the system and get an edge?

1205
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:40,080
In regards to how they should deal with me or in regards to how they should deal with

1206
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:42,360
their guiding education.

1207
00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:44,960
Do both.

1208
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:49,000
Do both.

1209
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:54,800
I think the most important thing and what I really try to do and I don't know how I've

1210
00:56:54,800 --> 00:57:00,960
gotten this reputation as as being a tough examiner or tough instructor like I'm a fricking

1211
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:01,960
teddy bear.

1212
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:06,640
I'm a f**king teddy bear.

1213
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:09,640
Don't you forget it.

1214
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:15,600
But a lot of people have said after the course that they're like, Oh, wow, like working with

1215
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:17,920
you is actually really awesome.

1216
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:24,400
But I think the most important thing and I wish somebody had told me this before is that

1217
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:30,400
on your guide exams, that's when you need to prove what it is that you can do on your

1218
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:32,280
courses leading up to it.

1219
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:35,160
You're there to learn everything's educational.

1220
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:36,320
Make mistakes.

1221
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:37,320
That's fine.

1222
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:38,320
Don't kill anybody.

1223
00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:40,440
But you can make mistakes.

1224
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:41,440
Ask questions.

1225
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:43,200
Ask for clarification.

1226
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:46,400
Try things that you don't know how to do.

1227
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:49,760
If you know how to do these two things and you just keep showing me those two things

1228
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:52,960
repeatedly, I'm gonna be like, Yeah, great, you know how to do those two things.

1229
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:53,960
That's awesome.

1230
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:55,600
Can you do these other seven things?

1231
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:58,160
I don't know.

1232
00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:06,200
So I always encourage people like try to take that pressure off of you.

1233
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:10,560
And let us try to impart more knowledge.

1234
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:14,440
Don't try to show me the thing you already know how to do.

1235
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:18,240
Try to show me that you want to learn how to do other things.

1236
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:25,520
I think it's, it's a real succinct quote that says, Are you worried about being right or

1237
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:27,000
getting it right?

1238
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:28,000
Yeah.

1239
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:29,000
Yeah.

1240
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:30,000
Yeah.

1241
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:31,000
Yeah, that's a good one.

1242
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:35,920
And it's tough, you know, a lot of these, you know, whatever outdoor pursuit, mountain

1243
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:41,840
climbing, rock climbing, backcountry skiing, they are centered around somewhat approving

1244
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:48,200
yourself socially more now with social media and everything, but also internally, right?

1245
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:52,760
Like, I think I've finally gotten to the point where I'm pretty comfortable with the

1246
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:54,240
climbing grades that I can handle.

1247
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:55,800
I'm not like, I need to be better.

1248
00:58:55,800 --> 00:58:57,280
I've got to push harder.

1249
00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:00,280
I'm comfortable being mediocre.

1250
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:06,040
Well, and how long, how long did we spend always trying to do things faster than we

1251
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:07,040
did before?

1252
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:08,040
Right?

1253
00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:09,040
Yeah, let's do this.

1254
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:11,720
You know, last time this tour took us four hours and see if we can do it in three.

1255
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:12,720
I'm like, who cares?

1256
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:13,720
You know, it's a sunny day.

1257
00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:14,720
I'd rather be out here all day.

1258
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:17,720
Yeah, I think my trip, yeah.

1259
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:22,120
I think one thing I really hard to set that aside in your guide trainings and be like,

1260
00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:29,320
yeah, it doesn't matter if I can prove that I can do this one thing or to show how slick

1261
00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:30,320
I can be.

1262
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:35,520
Like, try something new, do something different.

1263
00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:40,880
I think one thing I try to impart on students is like, hey, listen, for my first couple

1264
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:46,120
courses, I was literally the worst person in the class.

1265
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:47,520
And it's okay.

1266
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:49,520
It's not where you start.

1267
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:51,480
It's where you finish.

1268
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:56,160
And like, how do you integrate the feedback that you get on your course and how can you

1269
00:59:56,160 --> 01:00:02,040
be better prepared coming in so that you're like, I've gone through the student handbook

1270
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:05,200
and I know I'm proficient in all these things.

1271
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:09,320
And then the instructors are going to polish it up and help me work on the application

1272
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:13,360
and the terrain as opposed to how do I tie a month or mule?

1273
01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:14,360
Oh, shoot.

1274
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:16,800
I guess I should have practiced that before I showed up.

1275
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:17,800
Yeah.

1276
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:21,640
You know, and it's not different than what we were talking about with avalanche education.

1277
01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:25,640
Like a lot of people see it as I need to jump through the hoop.

1278
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:29,560
What do I have to do to get through the hoop?

1279
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:34,000
Rather than, you know, how can I better understand the hoop?

1280
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:37,880
I need to understand the entire being of the hoop.

1281
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:40,040
You know, I see it.

1282
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:41,040
I follow these.

1283
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:48,400
I'm not really sure why there's always interesting things on there, but you know, I'm on these

1284
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:51,800
Facebook forums for like backcountry skiing in Colorado and stuff.

1285
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:56,720
You'll see these posts from people who are like, Hey, I've got next Thursday off and

1286
01:00:56,720 --> 01:00:57,960
I want to go up to Berthude.

1287
01:00:57,960 --> 01:00:59,380
I got a level one.

1288
01:00:59,380 --> 01:01:00,380
Anybody want to go?

1289
01:01:00,380 --> 01:01:03,400
And people be chiming in like, Yeah, I got my level one too.

1290
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:04,400
Let's go.

1291
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:05,480
And I'm just like, Holy crap.

1292
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:09,760
Like, these people understand the hoop or did they jump through the hoop?

1293
01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:16,520
I'm not going to choose my backcountry partner by who's free on Thursday.

1294
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:22,000
But I think that's, you know, I would say that's a positive change that I think I've

1295
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:25,800
seen in the last few years.

1296
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:35,120
Early on in or in the mid, in the middle of my avalanche education teaching career.

1297
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:38,400
You could definitely tell the people that were there to jump the hoop.

1298
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:41,600
You know, they think that if they just sleep in the back of the class, somehow they're

1299
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:46,360
going to get the knowledge that they need and everything will be fine.

1300
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:50,760
And I think now I tend to see people who are more inquisitive and they do want to know

1301
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:54,640
more and they do want to try to understand more.

1302
01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:57,960
And then I think, I think they often leave the class being frustrated because they're

1303
01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:01,920
like, Okay, you taught me a bunch of things, but I still don't know the answer.

1304
01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:04,400
And that's, it's the imperfect math.

1305
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:05,400
There is no answer.

1306
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:06,400
I'm sorry.

1307
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:09,120
I can't tell you.

1308
01:02:09,120 --> 01:02:10,520
It doesn't really teach you answers.

1309
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:13,240
It teaches you like how to ask the right questions.

1310
01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:14,240
Yeah.

1311
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:15,240
Usually.

1312
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:19,800
And the more questions you're asking should give you the answer that you don't know the

1313
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:23,560
answer.

1314
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:24,560
That's funny.

1315
01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:28,680
Oh man, I had something good.

1316
01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:31,840
I wanted to ask you as like a wrap up and now it, I lost me.

1317
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:33,240
I was just listening to that.

1318
01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:35,440
Sorry to distract you.

1319
01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:37,320
Oh, no, it was good.

1320
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:38,840
That was a good point you made.

1321
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:42,280
I was going to, oh, I know what I was going to say.

1322
01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:48,240
You know, it sounds like the, just from hanging out with Jeff a lot and just now having conversations

1323
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:52,840
with a bunch of mountain guys, which has been really cool for me.

1324
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:58,280
It seems like the more sort of data you guys all get and the more of these like close calls

1325
01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:05,080
and crazy stories you have, it really changes your, your sort of fundamental understanding

1326
01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:08,680
of what it means to like play in the back country.

1327
01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:16,960
So maybe as like a wrap up or a final thought, like what, what do you think would be a great

1328
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:22,720
maybe like reminder or just like mentality to put people in like to think about before

1329
01:03:22,720 --> 01:03:27,360
they go into the back country, like no matter what level they have.

1330
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:34,040
Well, there's kind of the classic that we always say in avalanche education is that

1331
01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:36,200
you have goals and objectives.

1332
01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:39,640
Your goal is to go out and have fun and come home safe at the end of the day.

1333
01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:44,760
Your objective is the thing that you want to ride when you're out there, but your objective

1334
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:46,320
shouldn't change your goal.

1335
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:48,240
Your goal is always to come home safe, right?

1336
01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:50,000
I would assume that's true for most people.

1337
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:55,640
Maybe some people have a different opinion of what that ultimate goal is.

1338
01:03:55,640 --> 01:04:00,240
So there is that, you know, to think about what you're doing.

1339
01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:09,120
And as I've let that formulate my experiences through the years, you know, do I still like

1340
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:11,040
to scan the steep and deep?

1341
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:12,040
Heck yeah, absolutely.

1342
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:16,120
Is there times when I want to go and get rowdy?

1343
01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:18,720
Heck yeah, for sure.

1344
01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:22,440
But those times have to present themselves to you.

1345
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:26,560
You can't just take it when you want it.

1346
01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:28,760
And I've learned that the hard way.

1347
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:33,720
I've had plenty of close calls and I'm like, oh yeah, okay, I can see where my decision

1348
01:04:33,720 --> 01:04:39,200
making was clouded by me wanting to ski this line on this day in these conditions or with

1349
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:42,400
this person or whatever it is.

1350
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:47,200
But now I'm much more in favor of, I want to go out and have an enjoyable experience

1351
01:04:47,200 --> 01:04:48,600
and I want to have a good time.

1352
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:54,280
I want to make sure that my team comes back safe and that we don't have to do any CPR out

1353
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:55,280
there.

1354
01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:59,920
And that we don't have to pull our beacons out, shouldn't have to do that.

1355
01:04:59,920 --> 01:05:03,880
And I still have, you know, I love telling students are often blown away by this, especially

1356
01:05:03,880 --> 01:05:06,960
around Crested View where they assume that I've skied everything.

1357
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:11,480
And I'm like, no man, I still have a tick list even in my backyard of things that I

1358
01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:17,360
haven't skied because it hasn't lined up with the timing, the conditions, the right

1359
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:21,880
partner, you know, all these things that have to fall into place.

1360
01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:22,880
Sometimes it just doesn't happen.

1361
01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:25,800
And so I haven't been able to go out and ski these things.

1362
01:05:25,800 --> 01:05:28,440
And you know, maybe I'll get to them and maybe I won't.

1363
01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:30,560
That's just, that's fine.

1364
01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:37,640
But I can't go try to jam it in on a day when it's not, not appropriate to be doing that.

1365
01:05:37,640 --> 01:05:38,640
Hmm.

1366
01:05:38,640 --> 01:05:39,640
Wise words.

1367
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:40,640
I like that.

1368
01:05:40,640 --> 01:05:43,960
You really got to wait for the opportunity.

1369
01:05:43,960 --> 01:05:45,560
You can't create it.

1370
01:05:45,560 --> 01:05:46,560
Correct.

1371
01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:47,560
You know.

1372
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:52,600
Hey, so Steve, you've been in the mountains now for about 30 years.

1373
01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:54,120
And guiding for most of that.

1374
01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:59,440
And you're a senior instructor and examiner for the AMGA and you work with mountain teams

1375
01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:04,400
from special ops and run heli operations internationally.

1376
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:09,600
If people want to train with you and bring their level up, you're really top notch coach.

1377
01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:11,880
How do they get a hold of you?

1378
01:06:11,880 --> 01:06:17,720
No, they can probably not find me on social media.

1379
01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:21,120
They could check out my website that I updated.

1380
01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:24,560
I think sometime during the pandemic.

1381
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:25,560
Email.

1382
01:06:25,560 --> 01:06:30,880
And my website is Steve banks mountain guide.com.

1383
01:06:30,880 --> 01:06:34,960
Yeah, my email is Steve at Steve banks mountain guide.com.

1384
01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:42,080
So they can find me through either one of those avenues, although Facebook messenger and Instagram

1385
01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:43,640
DMs do work.

1386
01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:46,480
It might be slower to respond on those.

1387
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:47,480
All right.

1388
01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:49,520
So try to throw your info.

1389
01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:51,320
You're down below.

1390
01:06:51,320 --> 01:06:53,600
All right.

1391
01:06:53,600 --> 01:06:57,880
Thanks a lot and really appreciate you coming on and sharing your experiences with us.

1392
01:06:57,880 --> 01:07:03,640
And I'm really looking forward to my haircut with Stefano Bonco, my Italian stylist.

1393
01:07:03,640 --> 01:07:06,240
We'll see how that works out for you.

1394
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:08,240
Hey, Steve, thanks so much, man.

1395
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:09,240
It's great talking to you.

1396
01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:10,240
Hey, good chatting to you guys.

1397
01:07:10,240 --> 01:07:11,240
Take care.

1398
01:07:11,240 --> 01:07:12,240
Bye.

1399
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:13,240
Thanks guys.

1400
01:07:13,240 --> 01:07:15,520
Thank you so much for listening to all aspects.

1401
01:07:15,520 --> 01:07:18,240
If you like what we're doing here, please leave a rating and review.

1402
01:07:18,240 --> 01:07:20,960
It really is the best way to help others find the show.

1403
01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:24,360
Thanks again to our business daddy, aspect abbey, for making this show possible to learn

1404
01:07:24,360 --> 01:07:27,760
more about how aspect abbey is making avalanche safety simple.

1405
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:28,760
Go to aspect abbey.com.

1406
01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:33,080
If you want to use this powerful new tool on your next back country adventure, simply

1407
01:07:33,080 --> 01:07:37,120
download the app from the app store and enjoy 30 days free on them.

1408
01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:40,560
Lastly, special thanks to ice lab for helping us produce this show.

1409
01:07:40,560 --> 01:07:43,360
You guys rock and we couldn't do without you.

1410
01:07:43,360 --> 01:07:48,360
Thanks again for listening and we'll see you in the back country.