Whatever it takes and it's interesting you
Referred to my motorcycle adventure on a children's motorcycle
Needed an adventure of a new kind in
2020 and
Signed up with a friend to go to Mongolia and race children's motorcycles
49cc motorcycles for 10 days across Mongolia and
Don't the company that organized it they
Know how to define adventure. It's because they didn't even tell us where we were gonna start or where we
So we didn't even have the opportunity to do
You know how guides were always like looking at maps and doing tour planning and looking at like
Shortcuts and ways that we can maximize numbers summits or whatever none of that we had paper maps
They told us where we were gonna start and where we're gonna finish literally the day
We got on the plane to go to Mongolia, which is no easy place to get to and and then they bust us out to
the the world's tallest statue of
Genghis Khan and we started there and they
Does that's right introduced our little mini motos and told us where the finish line was and of course
That you they expect you get a run out of gas. You don't speak the language. You're gonna get lost and
You have to carry everything that you need for 10 days on a 40cc motorcycle
Welcome to all aspects a podcast where we explore discuss and celebrate adventure culture and outdoor lifestyle
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All right, let's get to the show
Jeff you're looking extra fast today, and we have a very special guest which is Angela haas looking very smart today
Before we go into all your credentials Angela, I
Usually like to start these off with this ridiculous fun fact kind of throw everyone off beat and just see where we all go
So this one's a two-parter so buckle up kids
Do you guys know how much a?
male African elephant weighs
One to two tons
Three or four tons
Okay
Metric tons metric tons get out of here Jeff get out of here
No way
Talking about snow stuff. It's all metric. I haven't even been to Africa yet. We're talking
Okay, wait, this is the second part into
Dave's been on safari
Yeah, okay, don't hold against me
Okay, so an African elephant a male African elephant weighs roughly seven tons Wow, that's a lot
metric or Imperial
Imperial LBS baby, so
Now knowing that how many elephants?
Does it take to weigh as much as a US aircraft carrier?
One million
Okay, it's lower than that. So US aircraft carrier weighs a hundred thousand tons. I was told there'd be no
math on this podcast. Yes, I was told there would be straightforward questions an elephant
Weighing in at seven tons means that it's roughly
Roughly listeners here. I got this right. I got a written answer
14,285
Elephants equal one aircraft carrier hard stuff
But what they do are kind of thing. I don't think they'd fit in that aircraft carrier
That's that's a good point. Imagine all the poo
All right. Well, no, we got that one going out of the way. Good law icebreaker
Jeff, do you want to uh, do you want to introduce Angela since you guys go way back and you want to speak her praises?
Sure. It's pretty exhaustive her resume is uh,
Makes me feel like a slacker. I gotta say but in short
She's just stepped down from serving her term as president of the American Mount guys Association
And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you were the second IFM GA
Guide as a woman with a lot of
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you were the second IFM GA guide as a woman, right?
Yes, that's correct. Kathy Cozley Houston. Yep. I know Michael Wheeler
Oh, okay. So you're three. Yes. No, and then the second president then the second president. Yep. Yep
and
you know historically guide associations have been
just
male male male and so I think it speaks volumes that
I
You were chosen to lead a
Vastly male dominant organization that's changed and evolved over time and we can get into that a little bit more
But you're also a technical delegate. You're on the technical committee for the AMGA
Setting the technical standards of hey, this is how we're going to train guides. This is the official party line
But also for the IFM GA, correct?
That's correct. I'm the vice president of the technical commission of the IFM GA just shaking up the old boys club Angela
I am doing my best
Yeah, my life's mission
To jump in there with both feet
Yep, and you've been involved with all kinds of other
I guess we call them passion projects as well
and I it seems like the theme that I see in your work in your cv is that you're always giving back to the mountain community
and I thought that was really cool and
um
I'd like a follow-up of that later
We'll put a pin in that and hear about some of your passion projects that you've been involved with and ways you give back to the
Mountains and to the mountain communities
um, but then you're also on the instructor team for the AMGA so you train and examine new guides
and
What's your favorite color?
Oh boy, you just threw that right out there. Um, I'm gonna say yellow
Oh, I love fun. All right
Well, you have a very sunny disposition that's for sure. I think that's one of the things that attracted me
To your personality is that you're incredibly curious and relentless and a real hard worker as well
And I'm like, ooh
I want to I want some of that to rub off on me and it makes for very interesting discussion
So we've loosely scripted this one, but I'm really curious to see where we go and where we end up
um, so
the
In in short wrap up like there's not too many people that
Line up with your amounts of experience your certifications
And the way you also give back to the mountain community because you also teach
Avalanche classes on the rec level but more now on the pro level
So you're you're the pros pro teaching that the super expert
Actually, I've never I've never taught in the rec program. I've always been just a practitioner
um, and then
The rec programs rolled out it was it was a good fit for me because I had been working in all the capacities of
forecasters
Backcountry
Patrol
But I've never taught the rec programs which um, I might evolve into doing that. It seems like another great way to give back
Yeah, because it's it's interesting
There's all these spokes of the of the wheel coming off the avalanche hub and I thought that was really illuminating for me as mountain guides
We're trying to avoid
whereas
ski controllers
We're trying to hunt them and kick them off to make it safe for the public and then heligiding is kind of interesting mix where we have
explosives, but we can't mitigate as much
As say ski patrol can and so we're doing a combination of hunting them and avoiding them with clients of the same
Maybe on the same day. So yeah, yeah, exactly
Yeah
All right. Well, Jeff. Thank you very much for that. You did that was that was very thorough
um
I wanted to
Since we were kind of talking about the guide thing angela, can you is it true that you were?
You're one of only 11 women to have the ifmga
certification
No
There's more. Yes, there's 15. Was that just when you got it?
I was the sixth
woman in the u.s. Um
And now there's 15 women that have been trained certified by the mga in the u.s. And
We don't have exact
numbers from the ifmga, but
It's likely that there's um, you know, well over like a couple hundred women
That are certified internationally out of 7,000
Got
7,000 guides total
So it's still very very much a minority in the u.s. We have yeah now. We've just recently certified our
200th
ifmga mountain guides, which is huge
Wow nice
So this is actually kind of fun because you and I met each other just filming doing some videos for youtube basically
And my only prerequisite to knowing you was just what jeff told me it was like you're the president of the american mountain guide association
And you're a badass like that was it
so
Then you know like what we meet up we hang out we shoot some videos like we had a lot of fun
It was fun day and then it's cold
It was cool that you agreed to come and do this because I got to kind of go and like look into you and kind of like
Read through all your accomplishments and I listened to the blister podcast you did back in 2019
And
It is it's like such a classic. I feel like this happens a lot in the ski world
That's all I have exposure to but where you're just sort of hanging out with someone and then the more you start learning about them
You're like whoa
Wow, like that person is
so
unassuming and chill
And then they just have this like
This awesome
Accomplishments list so I this was like kind of a pleasure to go through and
Learn a little more about you in this way and now I now I get to kind of like talk to you about some of this stuff
Oh, that's that's
I'm flattered, you know all that stuff is
That's all what I've done, but that's not who I am
You know so when I'm with people like you and jeff hanging out. I'm just me
And all that stuff is my experience and for some reason I've been
Relentlessly driven to just go on from one thing to the next and I've enjoyed it throughout and learned a ton
But I don't really define myself by the things I've done. It's more just being me
Well, I feel like that's a very humble and admirable
way to go through
Life to be honest and it's probably why you're so fun to hang out because you're not all
Look at me. Look at me. It's probably why I'm still alive too
The mountains have a way of serving up that dose of humble pie on a regular basis
exactly
Angela I gotta say that the inner terry gross in me is like chewing through my tongue
To like not ask you so how would you describe yourself?
Like let's take away all the accolades all the achievements all the certifications
Who is Angela haws or you know, how do you see yourself?
Well, that's I have a name. That's my name Angela haws, but who I am is
Someone who has gone through life
With struggles like everyone else and has learned from them and I'm
Trying to get back to that inner child that was the perfect
semblance of me and through all these experiences I get closer to that because
I begin to realize that I'm I'm just like everybody else and we're all connected in that special way
and so more than
And more than I did like the last 40 50 years
I'm just trying to just be as present as possible and
be totally comfortable in my own skin and
And walk my talk as much as possible. That's
That's what I'm trying to do and and and I'm not really trying. I'm just doing it
Does I mean you spent you spent so much time in the mountains. Does is that still like your happy place?
You're still your safe place like where you go out and it's like oh
Yeah, it's yeah like yesterday. I just
Climbed up red three with the part ski partner and
Just had amazing turns a little bit rocky on the way down
We chose a you know, the most conservative line down and and we you know
Checked out the snowpack on the way up and listened to all the signs and used aspect avi which I'm really um
Trusting to be a a good partner in the mountains as well
And had it was a beautiful day. It was supposed to be like, I don't know 20 below wind chill
But there wasn't a breath of wind. We're on the summit. It was like
blue and
Unbelievably, we haven't had much wind effect with the last couple storms
So it's just uh, finally a blanket of snow everywhere and uh,
Just another beautiful day on the mountains. Yeah, so that's my happy place and skiing has definitely become my my
passion sport and something that I wish I could do it all year round
Is that
Oh, Jeff you go
All right, sorry to step on your toes, Dave
But oh, yeah, angel you've had adventures all over the world and I loved hearing about your your motorcycle trip through mongolia
and you know
Big Himalayan peaks and like all over the place and and for decades and decades
What does adventure mean to you? What what do you?
Seek when you're going on an adventure
Yeah, you know every day is an adventure really but when I'm like going on a adventure
um yesterday's adventure because you said
Like this but it's always a little different and you have to
Do it. Yeah, totally. Well, you know for me an adventure is like just going out and and having
a bit of a plan but
Just being open to all the things that emerge along the way that influence the decisions and the direction that I go with whatever
Whatever it takes and it's interesting
You um referred to my motorcycle adventure on a children's motorcycle
in fact I
needed an adventure of a new kind
in
2020 and
Signed up with a friend to go to mongolia and race children's motorcycles
49 cc motorcycles for 10 days across mongolia and
The company that organized it
They
Know how to define adventure. It's because they didn't even tell us where we were going to start or where we
Were going to end so we didn't even have the opportunity to do, you know how guides were always like looking at maps and doing tour
Planning and looking at like shortcuts and ways that we can maximize number of summits or whatever
None of that we had paper maps
They told us where we were going to start and where we're going to finish literally the day we got on the plane to go to mongolia
which is no easy place to get to and uh and then they bust us out to
um
The the world's tallest statue of genghis khan and we started there and they
As you do as one does that's right
Introduced our little mini motos and uh told us where the finish line was and of course that you they expect you get a run out of gas
You don't speak the language. You're going to get lost and um you have to carry everything that you need
For 10 days on a 40 cc motorcycle
So for me, I was like the perfect size. I'm small
My partner's small you guys would be a little bit big
But there were guys on these bikes that were very large and it was such an exercise and problem solving for everybody and everybody handled it
differently and you know, I think that's one of the beautiful things about
adventure is it's like your problem solving and thinking on your feet and
your goal is
Either the summit my goal is always coming home. So the summit isn't the main goal
and making decisions along the way that maximize your fun
and maximize your um ability to return maximize your risk tolerance and
Maximize your ability to problem solve to manage risk along the way. So I guess for me adventure is
Having fun in a new place
doing something that's challenging that is always part of it and then
Engaging fully in the decision-making process with whoever I'm doing it with
and and and also with the goal of coming back friends because that
In intense adventures, that's not always the easiest thing to do if you're
In a tent with someone for you know, 10 days in a storm and um, you know, it's it's it's all about attitude for
Adventure and you know any any day can be seen as an adventure then and I think adventure has a connotation of like
extreme risk or
Um, you know challenging someone to their ultimate potential, but for me adventures just
exploring the world and uh my interaction with it
Um in a way that's fun
I like how you said staying open to the possibilities. I was like, oh that that resonates really strongly when you're
Slightly strongly when you said that that my energy perked right out. I was like, oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah like that
Yeah, like yesterday and up we like skinned across all these rocks, you know
We're on southerly face and slopes that we knew were really shallow and we weren't gonna we didn't have an old snow problem there
and
we're like
How are we gonna ski down? You know, it's like
I was open to the possibility of finding a safe way down, but it didn't look very promising on the way up and then that unfolded on the way down
We were able to keep our skis on the entire way down from the summit
We hit a few rocks, but but not not so bad
But you know, if we would have looked at that um going across and not seeing that opportunity
Would it we would probably would have just turned around it's like this isn't going to be fun at all because there was
Considerable elevation with rocks
Sometimes you have to put yourselves in a position to get lucky
And we might be walking back down this that might be how it is, but that's right. Let's go take a look. Yeah, that's okay too
I love I love the the idea of like the openness
to me that's a huge part of it because
Like as a perfect example the first time at banks
He called me out of the blue like a friend of mine was like, hey
We need to get more b-roll for this project they're working on and it's the middle of summer
and like
He's like here's this guy's number. He's a mountain guy. He lives in Crested Beard
And I call him and the first he's like do you have ice climbing gear and I was like no
Also, it's june like what are you talking about me?
and
And then he was like, okay, that's cool, but you got ski stuff and I was like, yeah
And he was like, okay sweet. We'll see you tomorrow and then I was just like well
Dude, what am I getting into right now? Like we need ice climbing gear in the middle of summer
But just sort of that mentality of being like
Well, it'll probably be fun if you know nothing else it'll be a good story and you know
I'm not someone who at this point in my life wants to be taking crazy crazy risk, but
That doesn't mean I can't still have like ridiculous fun going and doing stuff that I'm not sure how it's gonna work out
Yeah
I feel like that's
I don't know that's like what was the adventure. I mean that sounds you can't just like leave a saying like that
Oh, that was the I think you probably saw it. It was the video that we did where Jeff was skiing down the treasury shoots
it's like
I just went up and Jeff. What was that called?
Yeah, so some people call them the twin cool wars of treasury. They go into North Pole Basin
So you start at 13,000 feet and it's often great skiing in June July. Maybe even August in some years
And so I think we were sometime in July maybe and I was like Dave, you know
You don't want to fall because you may not be coming back if you do you sure you're okay on this and
Dave just sideslipped it with shooting the video while I was skiing it. I was like, he'll be just fine
But then I took turns
I have to go with that footage of it and it's a measured 50 degrees as well with a dog leg
So it's narrow. It's just enough to turn but it's uh, it's spicy and rewarding but
You know not something you would usually do for a first date as a tour
And and and certainly not you know filming the guy skiing ahead of you
As you slide down behind and that Dave was super chill in the down
But he's like, hey, I think I'd like a rope for the up because I haven't really done any cramboid
And I was like, yeah, of course no problem
You know, we're two and I had and all I had was my alpine boots
El Moro, Dabela's are just no flex at all. So I was hiking up like this. I was like kept getting pushed back
Frankenstein's like Jeff, help
You know, we had thought about that and we brought in a little bit of rope and had a cramp on so
We're always prepared. Yeah, usually I wouldn't say always but usually
Hey, should we segue into your adventures in the avalanche world and you got a pro to your teaching coming up?
Yeah
So what's a pro to for who's it targeted at?
And what skills?
Are they going to get in that course?
Pro to is the highest level training you can get in the u.s. Currently
And this is targeted towards
Folks that are transitioning and aspire to be leaders in their operations. It's very geared towards
Operational forecasting operational forecasting and and operational risk management in
the context of working in avalanche terrain, so
Artificial students are ski patrollers backcountry ski guides avalanche forecasters. We've had
Event managers for free ride skiing competitions
And
What else?
Yeah, heli forecasters like mechanized operations. So
It's it's an amazing course because
The diversity of the clients of the students really lends to the
the
The
Learning that goes on it's not just from the instructors, but the sharing of all the students because they get in
pods small working groups and their challenges for the program are
Developing a forecast
baseline forecast based on the snowpack that that we're working in which is always interesting here in the north San Juan's
And then and this is for the Silverton avalanche school just a little bit south of where I live here
and in
There's small pods. They're given a different challenge each day. So one challenge will be develop an operation
for a risk management plan and a forecasting plan for backcountry ski operation
And they have a terrain envelope in which
They're assigned and which has numerous different avalanche paths and some very moderate and some very extreme terrain
And we go out into that terrain and figure out where is the uptrack?
Where's the safe go-to uptrack? How can you guide this terrain in any condition?
Even in high avalanche danger. Can you can you produce a day of guided skiing here?
And then you know looking at where runs are going to be and
looking at the eight scale that the avalanche terrain exposure scale and
putting the avalanche problems into the terrain
That are specific to if I have an old snow problem a persistent slab problem
This is generally in the terrain where I'm going to find that consistently and that's pretty
easy in the San Juan's because
northerly east and west aspects traditionally
host a
Persistent slab problem sometimes throughout the entire year if we don't have much snow depth
And then we do another operation which is looking at a highway transportation
corridor for a mine and they have to look at how they're going to mitigate
And manage
Workers mine workers gone in on a daily basis many shifts many times a day
How they're going to keep that road and the exposure to avalanche hazard manageable?
And here we're getting in more into the explosives they might use
The remote avalanche control systems and where they might place those in the terrain
And then what a snow safety plan will look like for that operation
And then the next operation is developing a ski area
And so now they have like three lifts that they can put in the terrain
So they've got fixed infrastructure that's exposed to avalanche hazard and they have to have mitigation protocols
They have to have
Closure boundaries for the ski area
They have to have like a protocol for snow safety and know where to target specific problems given in the storm or given a persistent slab
Wind slab problem and then development of treat develop a treatment plan for that
And then the last exercise is they've evolved to be consultants
So now they go in and they review their peers operations and they provide
Feedback on how they think they did
And so it's a really great course for folks that like us love snow love
Managing the risk of avalanche hazard and exposure and
Look are looking to have a career
In that because there's there's a lot of different
Avenues that you can take as a snow safety professional beyond guiding that we're familiar with that
you know
Any infrastructure that's built in avalanche terrain requires avalanche consultants to go in and design
avalanche atlases mitigation plans things like that. So it's a great program. It's you know, you're
I get to work with the highest level people and their careers already that are developing to be leaders and
um, the the avalanche industry is as you too well know has changed
significantly over the years in in many ways thanks to the canadiens
and a framework called the conceptual model of avalanche hazard that gives us a
risk management decision making tool to work through the steps before we actually get even into the terrain
So we make good decisions
Why we're in a safe place and we're thinking soundly before we go out there and obviously we can change our plan
But only so far. Yeah. I love that idea of hey
Most of the risk management happens at home
when we're warm dry well fed
And we can have a conversation that's not in a blizzard and we can screen out most of the risk. I think that's a big
um
secret or
Misconception that we are not shooting from the hip as guides when we're on the mountain a lot of it is chess
And it's 3d chess mapped out the night before the morning of and then the last little bit
Just the tip of the iceberg happens in the field
That's right
Yeah
Exercise to go through and like those different
It sounds so great really creative and also super collaborative
That's right
Well when I took my canadian level 2 which is a little bit it's a longer program than the
The one that we offer here in the states
one of the coolest exercises because a lot of this evolves around leadership teamwork communication, right and as
People who have evolved in our careers. Well, oftentimes we're kind of set in our ways. We are a little bit opinionated sometimes
and um
oftentimes people don't speak up their opinions in a group and um, so looking at
communication and bias and uh,
The way that we work as teams and the way that leaders
Encourage their teams to operate
Um was really cool in the canadian model because one of our exercises was looking at case studies, but we had that we had different
Um roles so one would be the devil's advocate and one would be
um, you know the the
The person that's like uber stoked that is over confident one would be the old crusty person that's been there forever
Yeah, exactly. The one would be the newcomer who's hesitant to speak up
And we would have these sticky notes and so each exercise we would play a different role which was absolutely
awesome to just
think in that way because we don't often think outside the box of our own head and
Communicate how we would expect that person to communicate and it really helped bring out
Biases and it helped us see how everybody's opinion is valued in that process that communication process when you're making decisions
Before you go out into the field and it was it was super cool
exercise
Wait, so I have a question so when you're you're doing these like hypothetical, you know
You said like we have to plan out like a safety in an out route for a mine or something like that
Like are they based off of real life locations?
Or is it just uh these are based
We have so many mines here in the santa and wands and we also have a lot of
backcountry ski guided guided terrain
um, not so much for the mechanized like we're our
Operation areas not too far away from silberton mountain which has you know, that's mechanical ops. They have lift a lift one lift
and heliops
So it's pretty realistic and the mines that
Um, we're forecasting for there. It's actually mines that the head of all these valleys that are defunct
You know, they've they've long as long sands gone away
But the actual physical structures and the roads to them are are still in existence
So that makes it with a lot of avalanche exposure. So it's really an ideal place for this program
It'd be funny to tell students. That's why they went defunct because they got avalanche and wiped out their operations
It could be true
Those guys were amazingly bold. They would out there their way of mitigation would would be um
tunneling through avalanche debris
Which then they avoid completely avoided the avalanche
We just go under the tunnel and take their mule trains and there's so many cool
photographs and stories from the mines and the
Along the highway 550 here. It's it's just but not they were so bold
I just remember like I grew up in Durango, but like
Some of the mines you come across or like you wouldn't even know your buy mine and then all of a sudden you're just like wait, there's
Is that a freaking mine like they're everywhere. How did they get here?
They're everywhere. Is that in u-ray? There's like a ladder. That's just like up on the cliff
And it's like if you're sitting in the hot springs jeff. I don't know if you've ever seen this but
You look like you know, there's like, I don't know what 800 foot cliff above you
And 200 feet up the 800 foot cliff. There's just a wooden ladder going up another like 150 foot stretch of it
And it really puts into perspective. Just you're like, oh my god these people
Yeah, they're at risk. Wow. They're Tuesdays. We're the craziest thing that we've ever done
So, Angela you've been grappling with risk for decades now in the outdoor industry and you know, what you're describing
Is so far removed from what the average person could ever even imagine and all these different ways that avalanche professionals could
implement a risk management program
How has your thinking of risk evolved over the years and since you've been working as a as a mountain guide?
Well, it's evolved significantly having more of a process to
Make decisions with and you know, that's really only been in the last 15 years previously
It was almost all either acceptance or avoidance
Which was mostly avoidance and that I think that's why I'm still here is because
You know, I have listened to my gut throughout my life and that is not
That is not a reliable way to to go about business when you're in the mountains, but it has always worked for me
But I've always
looked at
mountains
And the risk that that I've been exposed to
Through learning as much as I can from the experts and from a very young age
I took my first avalanche course on red mountain pass. Oh, wow. It's coming full circle
1983 with Rod Newcomb and Don Bachman
And I stayed at the st. Paul Lodge and was a very green Presley college student on telemarked skis. None of us could ski
Yeah, and I was hooked those two
really clearly were
like snow gurus and
And you know, we just looked up to them like they were they knew everything there was to know about moving through the mountains and
and I
There was so much I didn't know I didn't even know what questions to ask at that point
but I fell in love with this place and a healthy respect for it and
Took a pro two years later and and then just started working and it was really through the work opportunities that I
Had that my relationship to risk emerged
through the training
working for outward bound working for prescott college
I used to teach whitewater kayaking programs which were
For prescott college that were probably the riskiest thing I ever did and I think that's why I got really into rock climbing
Because I realized if I had a rope I could be much more in control rather than just yelling at people telling them what to do
When they're underwater
On a rock like oh my goodness
and so most of my
Experience with risk and my learning has come through working for programs that provide great trainings and and
A solid framework around how to move with a group through the mountains
And now that's evolved to me being a trainer. So it's been like this theme of train the trainer and now I'm the trainer
that's training the trainers and
It's it's been great and I I have
utmost respect for all my climbing partners and scheme partners that have not approached it from an educational
Place and I you know, I think I'm just inherently curious and I've always valued education
So I pursued kind of that direction to to learn how to move about in the mountains and my friends that haven't
You know, they've had more of the school of hard knocks, which I've certainly had plenty of as well
But they approach risk very differently
Which I think is is highly valuable when I'm out in the mountains with them and we can have discussions on what they're seeing and why they
Why they think we should go up there or we shouldn't and
Um, it leads to really interesting conversations that are often different than I have when I'm with pros
Can we dive in to something you said that I perked up at where you said
my
It was contradictory, but I think we can explain it to the audience
Where you are talking about your gut and risk
Don't get Jeff going about the gut
Well, if we take a high level view like neuroscience has no idea where the seed of consciousness is
And a lot of folks are like it might as well be the gut as well as the brain
And so when we talk about my gut felt bad, I don't like this
You know, what how is your gut served you?
And and when when would you listen to your gut and when would you be like, hmm?
I think my gut just wants to ski steep powder today
How do you differentiate that how is your gut served you well to keep you alive is like, uh, you know
How does your gut talk to you?
When you when your conscious brain might not be on as caught up to your gut
Yeah, it's a really hard one to nail down hard one to describe because it's it's it's a feeling and it's a knowing at the same time and
You know, there's days where I don't even leave the house
I have a plan to go and I just like I go I wake up and I got
I have like spidey
Senses that are just like ooh something just doesn't feel right about today and you know, maybe it's the roads or
Or maybe it's something that happened yesterday on the mountains that that didn't sit well with me
But there's just that
Thing that I've come more to listen to when I when it
Comes across it just is a fleeting thing. It's it's not up in here, which is super interesting and I find I have to override my
Cognitive thinking to really start to listen to it
and and sometimes like when I'm actually in the moment and
My gut speaks to me and my spidey senses perk up. It is a feeling right in my gut like it's literally
Kind of like that constriction a bit of butterflies like uncertainty
and
the more you listen the more I listen to that the more I've trusted it and
I think it's something that
Is very easy to discount because we're so
Thought oriented. We're so like we think in our brains and there's so many stories going on then there all the time
That it's difficult to override it, but I've begun to trust it more that it is something that I really pay attention to
There was another part to your question there
I would say something to this also though and correct me if I'm wrong. You said something
That I think is key to listening to your gut in the right way, which is you have a healthy respect for the mountains
Yes, which which I think if I think that actually probably can allow you
To listen to your gut because you have that baseline of like hey at the end of the day like I'm I am getting to play here
That's right. I have no power over what happens here. And so like I think if maybe
You know correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like if you're kind of approaching
What you do from a fundamental level of like that mindset
That mindset then when you do have like the bad vibe or whatever
I think it's
probably easier to identify or at least
recognize when it's happening
Yeah, I don't know. What do you think?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, I am conservative
So I don't often put myself into positions where I'm gonna all of a sudden have
To really shift gears quickly the the places that I seem to get into trouble and in avalanche terrain
I'm very conservative my home snowpack is here in the north San Juan's which is one of the most
Hazardous snow packs in the world because it's shallow
High elevation we get a lot of sun which
Brings in a lot of solar rays
Radiation and because it's so high and clear we have very cold temperatures at night
Which further deteriorates our meek snowpack as it is and
Learning in this snowpack has given me tremendous healthy respect for the mountains
for sure
Yeah, it's it's just something that and and if I if you don't mind if I go on a little bit of a tangent here
That's what this is all about
That's all we're doing here. We don't know
I'm not gonna lie Angela. You know what the world really needs is two middle-aged white guys talking on a podcast right now
That's what they really need. That's what they're clamoring for so by all means digress as much as you as you want
Jeff and I are really saving the world
Yesterday so great day up on on red didn't have any spiety senses like the just was a wonderful day
coming down we
observed a
Large avalanche a size two
That was skier triggered we stopped on highway five five five pulled off the road had a spotting scope looked at it
It was on the northwest face of red three which is rowdy terrain
And we looked across at that and could see
tracks going in
To it and it looked very fresh and with further help with the scope
We were really far we're far enough away that like by the time we would have got there if someone was buried
There was no way that we were going to help
So we actually ended up driving down a con the sheriff to make sure that they were aware of it
Because we did we did see tracks going in we couldn't see tracks from our vantage point going out and we didn't know
um, how many people were involved if it was they had done two laps or if it was a larger party maybe a four or five
um, so anyway, I just had an awful gut feeling and
when we saw that and and saw the tracks
going into it and um
It just
Fortunately, everybody's okay. They
Deployed air but they both had airbags. It was a party of two
They both had airbags and they did skier skier trigger to rider trigger it and they were buried
Um, just very shallowly and able to dig themselves out without injury and self-exercise
So that was a happy happy ending
um
And unfortunately in crested butte there was a fatality yesterday that was a very sad
tragic event and and my condolences to the family and friends of all involved there
um, so this
Gut feeling I had it just was really illuminated especially going into teaching a pro too. I'm always thinking about
risk tolerance and how different we all
Look at risk and how we accept risk at different levels
Just inherently is who we are and how we approach the mountains and how we see things
and interact and terrain and
Um, it it just is so fascinating to for me how some individuals will accept a much much higher level of risk
And and I'm always curious to to understand
The thinking behind that why they accept that and do they feel like
You know the the modern equipment that they're able to you know deploy an airbag that that improves their chances of survival
and that makes it acceptable
Or are they um, is there pressure from social media that you know looking for the nice shot because
everybody's posting powder pictures now and this
likes on this really nicely or
You know, this is a new ski partner
And I really want to like make sure that I can ski with this person a lot because I like
The lines that they're skiing. I mean, there's so many different factors there and when we
We
dive into this training for the pro too
We look at the operational risk tolerance the operational risk band and that's something that we all have in a working place
in avalanche terrain is like what are our margins and how
How how big of an avalanche can we produce and like you know when you're when you're heli skiing your margins are going to be much
Greater than they would when you're backcountry ski touring because you have the helicopter as a backup every every guide's got a radio
Everyone's wearing an airbag. You've got instant action with the explosives
Got explosives to come to the to the rescue. So you know
Getting into bigger terrain is is more sorry. Have you ever used explosives on a rescue? I'd love to hear about that
Yeah, wait, I was I have this question too. I was like I was like
How does that work?
You can test the slope before and you could keep testing it mitigating throughout the season. Yeah
Yeah, you're like, okay, we found them go 10 meters that way put a charge in the ground
Break it up
Yeah
and you know, I just uh
We've we have a lot more
popularity amongst backcountry skiing everywhere, which is great that people are getting out and enjoying the mountains and uh
it's
it's amazing what
We can get away with and uh, I just really appreciate the tools that
that you two are bringing to the community with um,
Some processes for managing risk in avalanche terrain
That pros have been using for a while now. It's a it's a different different way of using the tools
But it's the same mindset of like having a framework that's based on
some data
and your low your actual current observations and very good mapping tools to help with the decision making process and
uh, just kudos to you guys because there's you know people not everybody takes avalanche courses and and there's a
There's so much uncertainty there in the snowpack that even the pros
Don't know so increasing our margins of safety for recreational is is just awesome and pros alike
kudos
Yeah, turns out almost nobody takes avalanche courses when you look at the data
Is that right?
Yeah, what is it? Jeff? It's like five million people play in the backcountry every year and
20,000 or something taking avi course
Yeah, it's like 300 years. We could get everyone educated at this rate. It's a good rate
It's about that'll be super good percent of the public in avalanche terrain has not taken an avalanche course
That's amazing. That's super scary
Give or take you know, it's kind of back of the envelope
But even if it's 90 percent has never taken an avalanche course like wow, this is the riskiest thing people are ever going to do
and
I think that was one of the
goals we were striving for is like, hey
This tool doesn't exist. How can we give people a simple framework that's similar
To the guides list where you know, some of these meetings can be knocked down drag out about what's our go?
No go terrain for the day and as it should be because our lives depend on it at work
And I don't know how osha signs off on guiding
I don't think they do or ski patrol or anything to do with avalanches my gosh avalanche mitigation in any way
Um, you're dealing with explosives. You're dealing with avalanches and the most unpredictable, of course is the people
Right and you know, did I have my coffee? Did I poop yet? Did my dog die? Oh my gosh, you know, all that changes how I
You know show up for morning meeting in my conservative or aggressive mindset
And I think that's one thing that aspect abbey gives the recreational user is like here is your run list
It's very simple
And that's maybe a a misperception. We're not as guides whatever the setting
Mechanized or human powered. We're not making the judgment on the fly
Because we have x-ray vision in the snow and my gut tells me the bulls gonna be good
It's like no, no, no, there's so there's a whole season's backlog of tracking data cataloging data
It's like accounting for snowflakes basically
And you know, that that's what the pro too is really about
And how do you share that data? How do you track the trends?
And then choose the terrain where you're going to avoid the problems and stay on
The right side of the slope angle the critical slope angle for the day and then be like, okay, this is our green list
This is our red list. We cannot
Switch on the the green light like that doesn't work. We can do it tomorrow, but I can't do it today
It's the Elysees chain to the mast where you're like, I'm bound by this contract with my teammates and we're gonna hash it out
And we're gonna hear everyone's opinion and my god
You know, I think we've all been in working environments where we're like, this is a dysfunctional team
Or this is a highly functioning team where everyone's opinion is respected taken into account
And it's my obligation to speak up and be like, hey, I have a high degree of uncertainty about this
I think maybe we're going too aggressive today. I think we need more data
Let's do some explosives testing and let's find out and then we'll green light it tomorrow
Yeah, exactly. There's so much background that goes into
operational decision making or individual decision making as guides in a day that
It is not seen on the front end when you're out guiding for sure
And it's always great to have clients that are super curious and want to learn a lot about that
Like pull back the curtain and be like, how do you make the sausage back here anyway?
And then the you know around even
Recreational avalanche programs, you know, we're out there you dig pits and you're looking at the layers and testing all the
fingers hard and hand hardness and
looking at crystals and
um doing all the the tests and taking notes and
what your tool does is it it
It helps remove the that uh uncertainty about spatial variability and you know when we're
looking in the snow
it's
A snow pit that that's one small piece of
The puzzle in a vast slope that is often interconnected that has terrain features that are
Variable different bed surfaces and so that little piece of information
Although it gives us a lot of information is to like the structure of the snowpack
It doesn't tell us where we can trigger a slide
It doesn't tell us like if it is go or no go
But what I like about aspect aviates just like puts that all over all the terrain based on the slope angle
and on the aspect and the elevation that the problems have been identified by the forecast
And then it lets us update that through our observations as we're traveling through the terrain
With what we're feeling under our skis rather than like stopping to dig a pit that gives us only just a little piece of the puzzle
Yeah, that one one millionth of the slope size
My pit is so tiny and it I get the sense and I just want to clear it up for the listeners. It sounds like
Correct me if I'm wrong. It sounds like your intuition
your gut feeling
You use that to make more conservative decisions
But yes
Do you use it to be like oh my gut feels good? Let's let's let's go steep and deep today and go rowdy
Yeah, no not so much. I'm uh, it's more on the conservative side when I get to the steep and deep
It's all
database and
looking at the signs and the forecast and the
Where I am in the terrain slope angle is a huge one aspect elevation. I mean all of that
time of year because the sun's
interface with like different aspects depending on
The month of the year. It's either higher or lower is going to impact different slope angles and aspects
Yep
Dana can I ask you?
Oh, sorry, Jeff. We about to start talking about Dana Kahneman
You know me let me just let this in and then you hit her up
He says our intuition is is is our subconscious processing faster than our conscious brain can catch up
And sometimes you're like, I don't know about this. I've just got a bad feeling. This doesn't feel right. Let's step back
This doesn't feel right and oftentimes, you know, I can't put my finger on it during the moment
But then we can talk it out later. I'm like, oh, that's what I was picking up
But I just couldn't you just put out a whole bunch of variables that as a professional you're chewing on your subconscious is chewing on
And working overtime that computer it's hard to get it to turn off
Especially when there's a big storm coming in and you've got clients and it is just churning churning churning
and
I think that's
Something to keep in mind as a beginner
We don't have that pattern recognition going on and that those years in the field because
For a normal professional. It's a hundred days in a team setting
logging data making observations tracking trends
debating
vigorously in a group with experts
It's not just oh, I feel good about this or I feel bad about it
And and then sometimes it can be the opposite. It could be so simple like when you're in cb with mike and we're out touring
And we would get these rumbling collapses and my sphincter just tightens up and I go
And it's like my intuition says that's not good and that's all I need to know
The earth just shook under our feet. I'm pretty sure that's a bad sign. Let's not ski anything steep today
Yeah, we were on like a we were on like a pretty flat ridge when that was happening
Yeah
It was like flat terrain and the whole earth just dropped underneath of us multiple times
I don't know make 10 11 collapses like a dozen. Yeah. Yeah
I have to ask you something because we're talking all about like risk and like
You know all these factors that you guys have taken effect and I think jeff you've also
Guided here, but if when you go guide in Antarctica
How do you first off manage risk because that I've never even been in arctic. I don't know like that sounds extremely tricky
because it's so remote
and also
like
It's I'm assuming you're going in the summer. So it's mostly sunshine the whole time, right?
The sun's just circling around like how do you make spring? So it does get dark. Yep. There are night
It's early spring
So the yep the days are getting longer and it's it's more mild and we are on the Antarctic peninsula
Which is much more maritime than the continental
right bitter cold
mass of Antarctica the the peninsula sticks out and is you know meets the drake passage and so you have a lot of
Warm water well warmish water that's influencing the snowpack and the temperatures there
So then how do I know how do you manage the risk?
Like do you just have a helion call or what's the deal? No? No, no, that's a great question because
um, it is a true adventure so the
A lot of the risk of like getting there and deciding where we can go every day
That's the cruise ship operator. That's the expedition leader that is like at the helm
with the pilot the captain
deciding like looking at
maps of ice flows and where we can get into based on
current ice wind direction
Title direction all that kind of stuff so the kind of the big picture of like getting there and crossing the drake passage like
That context is not is way beyond my pay grade
Because that's literally one of the most dangerous places on earth throughout the whole drake passage
So I managed the risk of being seasick
Pro move pro move i'm a landlubber
But it's worth it and then the penguins are definitely helpful in
managing like
Giving us indicators of like where we can get to shore because we can land the zodiac anywhere the penguins can
Hop up onto shore and that's always way. That's that's really why it goes for the
Crew handles the risk until they get you on the ice
That's right
and then
I must imagine it must be really challenging to on-site because if i'm going to a glaciated place
So we got crevasses sarac so those are ice cliffs that can break off
We've got avalanches
Um potentially steep terrain where people could slide on corn snow into the ocean or get avalanched into the ocean
Oh my gosh
and I'm guessing
You know it's there's probably
The glaciers are probably changing rapidly integrating like most places
and
You also have the added challenge of um, I can get regularly refreshed satellite imagery
Of the glaciers at any time of the year and track the trends of the crevasse field
So i'm like, oh, hey, we're definitely going to rope up for this zone
Whereas this
Zones a compression zone and for the whole year that haven't been crevasses here
Do you have data like that and how do you manage all those variables? My palms getting sweaty
Well, yeah, we had also like like sorry. I got one last thing like
If you have someplace where like it it literally never
Never
Maybe never melts entirely
so like
Maybe i'm super in here in here. Help me out, but like wouldn't there just be like an old snow problem constantly
No, but that's a really really good question
And and there isn't there where it's a maritime snowpack
You've got the glacier rather than the earth with the glaciers colder. So you typically aren't getting depth for
Development it's all ice, you know all the snow's falling on ice and it's a
From the core of the earth
It's a virtual desert really it doesn't snow that much in Antarctica. It just persists for a long time because it remains cold
So most of the problems that we're managing are if it's a persistent problem
It's typically like a wind slab which will last for a couple days and and those are pretty easily avoidable, but um, we're not
Fortunately managing old snow problems because that would even increase the complexity
Of all those things we mentioned are easier to manage than the old snow problem on red pass in the backyard
They are. It's unbelievable. That's very telling. It's amazing, you know, but we manage the risk
You know your question about the mapping. I mean it's all on site guiding which is one of the most exciting
things about guiding there because
There are no good maps even paper maps. I mean the scale is is so large that you can't you know
It'd be like contour lines would be like 200 meters apart, you know, just really very very poor definition and then
the digital
maps have
It's almost impossible to know exactly where you're going to go
So uploading maps to be offline is tricky and they're just not well developed for Antarctica yet at least for the peninsula
So even though we do our best
We we do track our tours and then when we come back say upload them to gaia or another app
And then you'll have some terrain features that that you can see but still it's very very poor detail
So it's mostly on site guiding and it's mostly going to places that we've been before
So we're from we have some terrain familiarity from a guiding perspective
But we always go up as soon as we get on shore
We put the rope on we guide with in a team of two guides and four clients each and we share a zodiac
Getting to shore together. We have radio communication throughout the day one team might go somewhere else
but we're always communicating and
And we're kind of our little mini safety net and then we also have safety in numbers because there's 25 guides and
We don't always go to the same zones
but we have a pretty robust
group of
Experience guides for any rescue that would be necessary. We don't use helicopters
although there is some heliskeying going on down there now with some of our super yachts
And we you know read the terrain as we're going up roped up and
if the weather's bad the
Guide out in front put some wands in to mark mark the way and mark some crevasses and
It's awful if you have to wear the rope on the way down. It's very very rare
That you do skiing with the rope on is awful
It's the test. It sounds very tricky
Ship on the downhill. Yeah, it's awful
It's like the ultimate marriage test much easier to see the crevasses and you come up that way so you know where they are
but oftentimes
that exposure to
the sliding and falling into the ocean is real
And we do have corn spring and icy conditions oftentimes. So we always have boot crampons
and oftentimes will
Shoulder or or put our skis on our pack and then short rope our clients or set a fixed line up and down these exposed sections
Unless unless we've got really skilled skiers, but that's oftentimes getting
On and off shore is is the crux for sure
Is is that something where like you
They get you to shore and then they piece out back to the boat or they stay on shore
Yeah, yeah, they're like running laps dropping people off and picking another group up and taking them to another landing
We always send a couple guides out
Before we go out with the clients to scout the landings and oftentimes we have shovels and wands and we'll put emergency gear there in case
we would
Get stuck there which has happened once where we had a hut. I got I was stuck with edger mcclain and dug workman
Um for probably about four hours and fortunately we had a hut before we were extricated
By the ship
Like made a like eddy from the wind and they they sent a zodiac driver in to get us and it was it was really dicey
We could have flipped that zodiac easily, but that's very rare, but we always have emergency rations on shore
Um and and good backup good comps and then you know, you can't always get out and ski
That's the goals to get out as much as possible, but some days it's just too too rowdy
Is there like a specific window of time that you're only allowed to do it like you said it's spring
So it does have a day and night cycle. Is that like a three month window basically that you're allowed to do that?
Oh, it's probably about a two month window
Um the trips that this company's starting to do is much earlier in the season now this now they're going on october
We generally we're going in november once you get a little bit later
It's just it you're dealing with an isothermal snowpack and it just doesn't have um enough structure
And cold temperatures to support good skiing
That's when you go to watch the go to see the penguins
Okay
Yeah
Well, thank you for answering that I was I when I was reading through your
It's a trip of a lifetime if any of you listening can afford it. It's definitely
Put that on your your bucket list. It's uh, it's a remarkable wilderness area
Do any of those people need cameraman?
Yes, that's true
And now would be an appropriate time um
Angela a lot of times people ask me like hey jeff could you recommend a mountain guide for me?
And I got to say I'm really fussy because
There's a lot of very technically proficient mountain guides out there
But I'm also looking for someone with a low risk tolerance where I
I know the people are going to come back and you're on my short list of people that I would recommend
And how would people get a hold of you if they wanted to go skiing or climbing with you?
Because I know you do trips all over the world as well as locally right here in colorado
So what's what's the best way to hit you up?
Well, not instagram or facebook because I don't respond to messages there
Don't
Yeah
email or my phone number. I think my phone number is on my website, which is very out of date
my website is alpinist
007.com
or
Angela haws.com and you can find me there and uh, you'll find my email address and that's the best way to reach out to me for sure
Thanks for that. Which I gotta say you might have the best email address. I've ever come across
The 007. Yeah, that was back in the day when we all of course I wanted alpinist dot at mac.com
but
That was taken so I like oh, I love me a huge james bond fan. So and I love the irony of like if you think back to like
You know the old classic
misogynistic bond
Let people surf to your website there and then they can check out what your email is it's pretty good
um, hey, you started me thinking with dave's questions on how do you manage the risk in Antarctica and
um, one thing that I've been curious about and I think there's a
A gaping hole in the guiding industry is we talk about risk management
And we talk a bit about risk tolerance, but I've never worked for an operation that said hey
This is our risk tolerance
and what I mean is
I was talking to a guide at our annual AMGA meeting and he works for a heli operation
uh, way up north
And they used to have a tongue-in-cheek motto that said it's okay to take a ride
As long as nobody dies
And that was what was told to clients
And I was like
Whoa
I wish I had those superhero powers to be like oh, this will only be a d1
and
It's a high risk clientele and they're okay blowing an ACL but nobody is going to get buried or no one's going to get pushed off a cliff
And they've since re-thunked that after an incident where one of their team was killed and they're like, okay
it's not okay to take a ride anymore and
That really got me thinking and I've asked my brother who's also
Uh a guide and friend of yours and call he and he's working up at cmh this year
I was like, I'll tell me about your training your orientation going in and and it seems like it's something that's not
really articulated in the guiding industry of
Are we okay?
with
I could imagine a spectrum of somewhere between hangnail
All the way up to mass fatality worst case scenario where everyone in the group dies
And there's this huge gray area of what is our risk tolerance?
And then we start throwing in miners kids under 18
And you're like, whoa, this is getting really tricky. We are making decisions
for their parents who are ignorant of the risk involved
Who are deciding whether their kids are going to be involved in this activity as well?
And when I say ignorant, that's not condescending. It just means they're naive
It's it's they don't have that depth of experience where we've lost tons of friends and colleagues
We very well are aware of what could happen if things go wrong
And and that weighs very heavily on us a lot when we're deciding what our run list is for today. So
That was a bit of verbal diarrhea, but you've been grappling with
You got a question there
The risk management and you're about to teach it
So what are some of the questions that you've grappled with? I'm not expecting like a silver bullet of here's the answer
Jeff, I've got to figure it out. But I'm just curious about, you know, you've been head of an organization that
could be called the largest guiding operation in the u.s.
And there's a huge amount of risk exposure when you're having students be on the sharp end of the rope leading or guiding
And it's like, whoa, you know, how do we manage risk in that operational setting versus heligiding versus in Antarctica?
Yeah, you've done it all. So lay it on us. What are some of your thoughts?
or questions
It's all comes from the gut, Jeff
So it's really important to drink lots of kombucha. You want to keep that gut flora happy
No, I mean, that's a big question and you're absolutely right. I think it's not articulated well
and
The avalanche industry is evolving. So we are starting to
develop more criteria around what is acceptable and what isn't and again as we talked about earlier, it's going to be different
for like a mine that you're going to be driving in a vehicle
that
You're the the size of an avalanche that's acceptable
To hit the road considering someone's in a vehicle and wearing avalanche transceivers and has rescue gear and radio comms
Is going to be much higher than it would for backcountry operation where your resources are much more limited. You're on foot
You don't have
Maybe communication at all with the outside world. So
But yeah, I think it's pretty
Generally understood that we don't expose ourselves or guests to an avalanche that could
Produce the size of a berry and kill a person
Which is a size two a d2 destructive size to avalanche
And that's not even that big of an avalanche really that can produce that much debris and if you
um
Consider that there might be a terrain trap that could multiply the debris
um the depth um, then that that makes it even worse, but
It it has I would say certainly amongst um ski patrollers been acceptable to ski cut
size to terrain which is
I think the culture could take a step back and reevaluate that a bit
Because you are exposing workers to something that could produce a slide
that could potentially kill someone and
Where that slides got a release above or below and a ski cut
Visibility there's a lot of factors there that
um have been fairly accepted by that industry
um
Not all ski areas are like that so much have much smaller
Tolerances they might say like we're not going to ski cut on any terrain that could produce a size 1.5
And then again how we interpret the size of an avalanche is a whole another
ball away
My d2 might be a d 1.5 to you, you know, so there's there's so many factors there, but um, I think in the ski guiding
realm, um, we've gotten comfortable with
smaller avalanches like size one
D1 that um could produce an avalanche but isn't going to result in a fatality necessarily unless there is some
magnifier involved
But it isn't well articulated. I think our run lists in the morning
Kind of get at that
But we don't necessarily articulate that consistently in the industry. It's a good point
Okay, hold up. I gotta ask this question because I feel like I'm just like hearing this for the first time
Did you just like?
Are you guys saying that there's no
Like global standardization for risk threshold for any guiding operation. It's per no
It doesn't exist. Yes. No, that's wrong. Yes, there is like for a highway
Um, uh, like c dot the coloro department of transportation
They're gonna shut down the highway
If a size a d3 avalanche could hit the road potential
And you know bury and destroy a car
so
Yes
There are consistencies. I don't know if that's the same in europe as it is in us and if it's the same in canada, but um,
You know nuances with legal system where if i'm a mountain guide in europe
And let's say i'm in italy if it's considerable or high danger and I have an accident and my client dies
I'm automatically convicted of manslaughter
Because what's the definition of considerable danger?
Yeah
It's human triggered. It's likely likely and the judge is like
Why were you going there and I'm like, well, I didn't think it was gonna slide and they're like, that's right
You didn't think your sole job your prime directive is to bring them home alive
Even if they have to double pull down that low angle slope
But you know and I've had colleagues in europe three who have that
You know, they lost a client at considerable or high danger and the judge threw the book at him and said hey the law is the law
And you were an avalanche train at considerable danger and if you got it wrong, you're gonna pay the consequences
And it's an interesting way of thinking at it and I think what we're seeing now in the rash of close calls
It's interesting like looking at the the c.i.c. Of the utah avalanche centers, you know
Like here's our summary for the last month and it's like a hundred skier triggered avalanches
And no fatalities until just recently and you're like, oh my gosh
We're we're really getting lucky because it's been a very unstable year an inordinate number of high danger days and considerable days
Speaks to the instability we've had in snowpack yet very few fatalities. We're way behind the seasonal average for deaths
And I would say we're forgetting pretty lucky in that regard because lots of people aren't getting the message like in Italy or
If I had an accident Germany or swiss on austria, they'd run it through an algorithmic approach
that they're trained in and said hey you were jeff you were in the red and
You're gonna suffer the consequences. I'm sorry and um, it's a very different way of thinking, but I think
You know you my catch up and I were all on the same page. Hey, it's considerable
It's been it considerable for days except when it was at high
We are staying out avalanche train and keeping it super chill
And it was such a relief because I felt a little stress as the local hosting you
To provide the goods because you've been working and driving and doing clinics and you're like, hey, we need to play and i'm like
I do too
And and then I was so relieved that we were all on the same page and we're just like yeah
We're just gonna keep it chill and we had such fun skiing and I was not stressed once it was such a relaxing day
It was great day which
When you're skiing with a group of five that you've never skied before that never happens
And it was really lovely to do that share that yeah
And that you can always blame it on me. I have all of the camera gear just be like dave's a rock
He can't he can't get caught dude
You know that part of that decision making was anywhere it was steep we were
Skiing on a crust so there was not a persistent weak layer underneath
And we also skied some steeper terrain in old growth forests and it was heavily anchored
Uh, lots of tree bombs that hit that I don't want to reveal any secrets here, but it was an amazing stash
Um
We were able to ski because of those two factors. Um, where you chose to take us
Yeah, and I I would
I would be pedantic on one point
Um, if we dug around those bases of the the old growth forest
I don't think we're I think we're gonna find sugar around the trees
But I don't think it's so much acting as rebar and concrete to anchor the slope
That we might see that in a maritime snowpack where it's all pencil or knife hard
But I think what it does is it's so disruptive
It's such a thick force that only experts can ski through
And all those massive tree bombs I'm psyched we didn't get hit by any because some of those craters were like something you see on the moon, right?
It's like a 50 pound boom
I'd be like, oh, I gotta go the chiropractor
Um
If I survived and it you know, it disrupts the weak layer
So you just don't have a continuous weak layer and it's a very localized spot because there's certainly areas where you're like
Oh, hey, let's go ski in the trees and you're like, well, what does that mean?
Is it an open glade that an intermediate could ski you're like, oh, that's not enough disruption on the weak layer. Yeah. Yeah
Yeah, it was a great day out
Really enjoyed getting out with you guys
Yeah, it's fun to just ski with people in the same mindset so that it's really relaxed
I I'm over that point. My ski partners are
My ski partners are either guides, um
or folks that have been around the block a long time and uh
Have lived to ski another day
Yeah, my my list is very short. I'm quite particular. Yeah, it's you
I feel honored
To be on both of your lists
Oh, you're fun to ski with
Uh, well, we should probably wrap this up because we've we've taken up a lot of angel's time
It's been very nice of you to hang out with us
but angel I wanted to ask kind of a
Just like a final question to you
Which would be like is there something that you see like clients or normies like me
Just like people consistently doing in the back country that you're just like face-palming and you're just like how is this not getting
across like how are people
Like if there isn't that's great, but
Um, you know, it's really I think not that much really which is impressive
but the one thing that I do see people struggle with is layers
and
Being comfortable and not sweating on the up and then being cold on the down without having to change
Take off your top layer and all that
Um, and I guess, you know that
Often is influenced by your pace. So if you're you're sweating a lot one
You probably have too many clothes on and and two you're probably going way too fast for your
Body and your comfort level
But I seem to be able to just like trudge along most of the day on a tour wearing
Pretty light underneath and then my my shell
And I have nice pit zips and I can open the front and
I seem to be able to do that and then I'll put on a down jacket over top of that shell when I stop
Maybe I'll leave it on for the down
Or maybe just take it off because I'm generating a lot of
Heat going down as well. So it's it's managing those layers and
Keeping your core warm enough that your hands aren't and toes aren't getting cold
Because once you start sweating and you cool down your hands and toes are going to start to suffer
Um, so yeah, layering's layering's a science
Layering is
Yeah, jeff. I want to hear yours
Perspective it's it's what we've seen in all the close calls and accidents that have happened in our
Zones and the sand wands and here in crested butte in the west elks is that
It's considerable danger
with an old snow problem
And people are skiing steep terrain
So that's over 30 degrees black diamond terrain
And the last part is they're skiing exactly in the blacked out critical danger zones
And
You can get away with it for a while, but eventually it will catch up to you
And that's a very hard lesson that I had to learn because I thought I was outsmarting it
And I was in the snowpack every day and I had my finger on the pulse
Until I didn't and I got it wrong
And I was lucky enough to be okay
But I've just lost too many friends and colleagues who were super experts and it's not that they weren't really highly trained
It's just that the world is a really unpredictable place
And we're going out there so many times
It's going to catch up with us or one of our friends very quickly and my my my wish for the backcountry community is hey
Watch out for those
Ingredients considerable old snow problem going where the blacked out critical danger zones are and going over 30 degrees
That's that's a recipe for trouble and I wish all my backcountry
travelers in the community to have a long and adventurous life instead of a short exciting life
Yeah, totally. That's great. Amen on that one
Amen on that one
Well said, uh, and I can ask you guys a question. Can't tell you
Yeah, this is for both of you. So, um
You're not spring chickens anymore. You're a little you're a little been around the block both of you
Um, actually I have two questions, but this one for both of you is like, what would you tell your 20 year old self?
About risk and decision-making because I know, um, you know, Dave, I don't know you as well
But Jeff, I know that you in the past have a your risk tolerance tolerance was probably higher than it is now
And uh, what what have you learned?
Since you've been 20 that you would have you look back and tell your 20 year old self now
Dave you want to take it first? Sure
Well, angel, I I spent my my 20s
skiing slope style and half pipe
so like
It's actually kind of funny. I feel like I have a really
strange relationship with risk
um
There's like a really really narrow part of my life where I am comfortable taking extreme risk, which is
skiing park
Like or resort skiing because I'm like I've done more of that than anything else
period
but because of that
And you can talk to my wife about this. She's like always complaining like I drive like a grandma
I'm like a pretty conservative biker
like
And and and then skiing, you know
I love hanging out with people like you in the backcountry because I
Learned so much and I and it really teaches me about
like
Shows me all the things that I don't know consistently or just am not thinking about even though I've heard it
I haven't retained it and so I think
It's funny when you're like, what would I tell my 20 year old self is like about risk?
Like it's a really hard question because I feel like I've had a
Like fortunately, I've had a pretty good relationship with it. I would say outside of the like park skiing
I've just I think I've done enough maybe stuff
That I knew I wasn't good at
That and then it like spanked me and I was like, oh, yeah, duh. I don't know what I'm doing like
But I would say like keep learning. I would tell myself to like keep stay curious and keep learning and and like try to absorb
As as much knowledge from those around you as possible, which I feel like we're kind of doing here
Yeah, which is awesome. Yeah, that's great. What do you think Jeff?
For me, it's the Dunning Kruger effect
where
John Cleese put it really well. He's like stupid people have no idea how stupid they're being when they're doing stupid things
And we just don't know what we don't know. And so if we're a novice at something
We think we got it and I was just surfing this week
And I thought I had it
Paddled in caught the wave it was overhead and I was like, oh my god. I'm really doing this get to shore. I'm celebrating with my mate
He loses control of his board. I'm looking the other way the board wax me in the head concussion
I'm fucking down
And that was the perfect metaphor where you know, I had this little taste of what I perceived as mastery
Which is ludicrous, right? Because I don't know how to surf but
I got lucky, you know
Blind squirrel finds the nut kind of deal and and I was like, whoo, I figured it out and the universe just smacked me aside the head and like, listen, this is infinitely complex
and the experts the absolute experts don't have to be the experts
The absolute experts don't have it figured out
And that's the same way in the avalanche game and I thought I had it figured out
And I was just on the cusp of basic proficiency. No, in fact, not even
And and so you you're on the peak amount stupid and you get the smackdown and you're in the valley of despair and then hopefully
The line up on the graph is tracking your proficiency with your perception of where I where I am
And I wish I had a better gauge
But actually that's something that aspect of abby gives me is, you know, when we looked at our tour track afterwards
I'm like, did we stay out of the red or you know, did we take any high-risk moves?
And it forces me to confront that and I can't just go by it felt good
Because our skiing felt great. We were having so much fun
But you know, I have to look at it hard and fast and be like, oh, did we cross into the red?
Okay, why and what are we going to do next time? So we make sure that we we have a low risk tour over and over
So I think that was it. It's just like hey that overconfidence
When you're new at something you just setting yourself up for the big get blindsided by the surfboard in the head
That's great
Dude so much so many times that's happened to me and I can't I'm like, why do I never learn like this isn't
Chris hit you in the head with his board too. Yes
No, but like
He's everywhere
No, I remember like I remember surfing in Costa Rica and being like my first big bail off the board
Like went in fully open like mouth open
Like didn't tuck and roll at all like I literally got sand in my mouth and was like
Like came out like
You know, I'm like
It was just like my buddy my buddy is there. He's like dude
Like number one rule and your bail off the board is like getting a ball like tuck and roll, you know, like
I'm like, oh, right that because I actually didn't know that
like
But but I was just like, oh, you know, like I don't know man
I agree with you. There's so much stuff out there that you just don't know about that
You've got to just approach everything very humbly
Yeah, yeah
I think that's what's so fun about doing something with the beginner's mind is like
Oh, I don't have to be the expert and feel that pressure of knowing it all and I can just be open to being like, hey
Tell me what I'm doing or what I need to change and like give me feedback
it's it's a really kind of fun place to be and and uh
Yeah, it's it's funny because like I can only imagine how when I'm looking at people doing what I think is like
Really far out stuff skiing where I'm like, whoa
I'm sure people were laughing at me all week at the beach. It's like man that guy
He survives another week
How many people did I cut off and not even know?
That's awesome, that's good. Well, Angela, thank you so much for having us
I'm gonna have to ask you I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you one more question. I think this is a hard one
This is back to our
operational wristband our wrist tolerance and
Um, something is very interesting more so in the high alpine how high altitude mountaineering world is
risk tolerance and how that's different for gender
in the past
Women who have gone away to climb 8 000 meter peaks or very technical undertaking
Have often been heavily criticized
if they have
for
Taking that level of risk which the culturally is deemed unacceptable for a woman
whereas many many more men have um that have kids have taken those risks and
the public hasn't been very condemning
And I just um, you know wonder what you're all's perception of that and is if we're going to see a shift and
You know, it's just also like goes to like the risk that we're going to take as
Citizens of the u.s. To not vote like I just talked to a friend the other day. It's like, oh, I never vote. Yeah
I don't do politics. I'm like
Oh my god, like how many people do I know might not vote that I don't even know they're not going to vote
I mean, what a risk is that going in and and and it's just
I don't know what it is complacency or thinking that our
voice doesn't matter
It will all work out. We'll deal with it as it comes. This is super interesting
but back back to the risk tolerance on
You know high altitude mountaineering and a woman's place is maybe not there
Culturally or culturally accepted. What are your guys thoughts on that?
That's really interesting like I
I've never really
Like at least for me, that's that thought has literally never crossed my mind of like
If your dude woman is going and doing something extreme
like to me
like if
Some lady wants to go free solo l cap
That in that my mind is the same level as nutso is alex hannel doing it like I don't have a
A base layer of judgment towards
their decision-making, but that's a really interesting
Kind of like thought I don't know I didn't think about that before so thanks for bringing that up. Yeah. Yeah, it's something
It's definitely a real thing
Um, and you know who who are those that are judging are they climbers? Are they?
Just people who are reading about it in the media
I
Seem to think that it's probably not as much the climbers as it is the general public
But it's just an interesting since our conversations
Evolved a lot around risk tolerance. That's something that comes
Back to me because I live in that high alpine
How high altitude climbing world and and to have a community there and
It's challenging for women
Yeah, and I think it's really hard for me to reflect because if
the if you wrote a formula
our variance over time
equals our bias
And if I have a bias it's unconscious. I'm not aware of it
So that is really tricky to start with
And then how I consume the news and I think of two distinct stories that are similar
the
Hilary O'Neill and Alex Lowe
And how those tragedies were portrayed and there's a strong family component in each of them
Yeah, and it's hard for me to filter through my bias
And then the media bias that's informing me
But I definitely got the sense and it didn't sit with me well
that
It seemed like the perception was that the risk Hilary was taking
It's not socially acceptable, but the risk Alex Lowe was taking were socially acceptable
That was the feeling I got
And I don't know is that
Yeah, yeah, that's the feeling I've had with a number of women that have
Unfortunately passed in the mountains
Yeah, and
You know a mother a mother's relationship to children is is different, but it's still
It it shouldn't be that different. It shouldn't be that it's culturally unacceptable for
A woman to do something that is exactly the same as as a man's willing to do as well
Yeah
Food for thought
And how we evolve is a culture moving forward with high levels of risk and uncertainty
All around us and thank you guys for aspect avi. I mean this is just an amazing
undertaking and a risk that
You are embarking on that is just uh, it's high level, you know, it's financial risk social risk
Uh
Litigation risk, I mean all this it's like it's it's a bold undertaking and I applaud you both for
Especially you Jeff with your investment and your visionary
Uh, just thought process and moving this forward because it's
You need a lot of resources to pull this off and somehow you've managed to put together an amazing team
Thanks Angela and I definitely you know, there's no way we could do it without the backing of the community and the backcountry community
He's been incredibly supportive of it and people like you as well and lending your voice to it and uh,
but then
You know everyone who's been involved and contributed in the project giving us feedback investing and helping us with our team like Dave
who handles our product our content production and videography and podcasting so it's
It's definitely a team effort, but uh, thanks appreciate it. Yeah, I look forward to to watching it evolve and grow
Yeah, and I'm absolutely mortified that you couldn't get your that we couldn't get the pro code for you to work because you are one of the earliest testers
And it glitched the system. So you actually bought it out of your own pocket
Yesterday morning, I purchased it before I went up at three. I gotta say is the ultimate testimonial when the
President Emeritus the guide association buys the app out of her own pocket who gets everything for free
So I dinner's on me dinner's on me
No, I was happy to happy to contribute
And I used it and it was great it kept me out of the red
Thank you
You guys are great. Thanks. All right guys. It was awesome having with you. See ya
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