1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,600 Whatever it takes and it's interesting you 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:07,120 Referred to my motorcycle adventure on a children's motorcycle 3 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:12,000 Needed an adventure of a new kind in 4 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:14,680 2020 and 5 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:19,340 Signed up with a friend to go to Mongolia and race children's motorcycles 6 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:24,740 49cc motorcycles for 10 days across Mongolia and 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,360 Don't the company that organized it they 8 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:35,080 Know how to define adventure. It's because they didn't even tell us where we were gonna start or where we 9 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,320 So we didn't even have the opportunity to do 10 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:45,360 You know how guides were always like looking at maps and doing tour planning and looking at like 11 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:51,960 Shortcuts and ways that we can maximize numbers summits or whatever none of that we had paper maps 12 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:56,080 They told us where we were gonna start and where we're gonna finish literally the day 13 00:00:56,080 --> 00:01:03,440 We got on the plane to go to Mongolia, which is no easy place to get to and and then they bust us out to 14 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,080 the the world's tallest statue of 15 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,320 Genghis Khan and we started there and they 16 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:19,280 Does that's right introduced our little mini motos and told us where the finish line was and of course 17 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:25,040 That you they expect you get a run out of gas. You don't speak the language. You're gonna get lost and 18 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:31,560 You have to carry everything that you need for 10 days on a 40cc motorcycle 19 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:37,420 Welcome to all aspects a podcast where we explore discuss and celebrate adventure culture and outdoor lifestyle 20 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:43,960 It is our mission to educate inform and entertain our fellow adventurers about the inherent risks that surround us every time we go outside to play 21 00:01:43,960 --> 00:01:48,760 And to provide you with the knowledge and tools to help you do the things you love the most in the safest way possible 22 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:55,080 All aspects is brought to you by aspect avi aspect avi is on a mission to save lives by making avalanche safety 23 00:01:55,160 --> 00:02:02,800 Simple is the only app that tells you where the high and low risk zones are for today's avalanche danger with a suite of built-in tools 24 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:10,040 Like forecast verification slope meter and gear checklist aspect avi is the new safety standard for avalanche risk management 25 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:12,800 Remember there are dozens of apps to get you into the back country 26 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:20,000 But there's only one that's designed to bring you home and that's aspect avi go to aspect avi.com to learn more or download the app 27 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:26,080 To start your 30-day free trial. Thank you aspect avi for making this show possible and thank you for listening 28 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:27,820 All right, let's get to the show 29 00:02:27,820 --> 00:02:35,280 Jeff you're looking extra fast today, and we have a very special guest which is Angela haas looking very smart today 30 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:42,360 Before we go into all your credentials Angela, I 31 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:49,160 Usually like to start these off with this ridiculous fun fact kind of throw everyone off beat and just see where we all go 32 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,520 So this one's a two-parter so buckle up kids 33 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:55,400 Do you guys know how much a? 34 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:58,520 male African elephant weighs 35 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:01,720 One to two tons 36 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:03,880 Three or four tons 37 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:05,880 Okay 38 00:03:06,920 --> 00:03:10,680 Metric tons metric tons get out of here Jeff get out of here 39 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,480 No way 40 00:03:14,920 --> 00:03:20,400 Talking about snow stuff. It's all metric. I haven't even been to Africa yet. We're talking 41 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:24,640 Okay, wait, this is the second part into 42 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,480 Dave's been on safari 43 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:30,720 Yeah, okay, don't hold against me 44 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:40,520 Okay, so an African elephant a male African elephant weighs roughly seven tons Wow, that's a lot 45 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:43,120 metric or Imperial 46 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,280 Imperial LBS baby, so 47 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,160 Now knowing that how many elephants? 48 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,640 Does it take to weigh as much as a US aircraft carrier? 49 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:56,640 One million 50 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:04,000 Okay, it's lower than that. So US aircraft carrier weighs a hundred thousand tons. I was told there'd be no 51 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:10,000 math on this podcast. Yes, I was told there would be straightforward questions an elephant 52 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,240 Weighing in at seven tons means that it's roughly 53 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:19,760 Roughly listeners here. I got this right. I got a written answer 54 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:25,040 14,285 55 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,080 Elephants equal one aircraft carrier hard stuff 56 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:35,600 But what they do are kind of thing. I don't think they'd fit in that aircraft carrier 57 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,200 That's that's a good point. Imagine all the poo 58 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:44,560 All right. Well, no, we got that one going out of the way. Good law icebreaker 59 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:50,160 Jeff, do you want to uh, do you want to introduce Angela since you guys go way back and you want to speak her praises? 60 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,840 Sure. It's pretty exhaustive her resume is uh, 61 00:04:53,840 --> 00:04:57,920 Makes me feel like a slacker. I gotta say but in short 62 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:03,120 She's just stepped down from serving her term as president of the American Mount guys Association 63 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,960 And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you were the second IFM GA 64 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:10,240 Guide as a woman with a lot of 65 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:14,800 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you were the second IFM GA guide as a woman, right? 66 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:20,400 Yes, that's correct. Kathy Cozley Houston. Yep. I know Michael Wheeler 67 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:27,600 Oh, okay. So you're three. Yes. No, and then the second president then the second president. Yep. Yep 68 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:30,240 and 69 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:32,240 you know historically guide associations have been 70 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:34,240 just 71 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,600 male male male and so I think it speaks volumes that 72 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:39,600 I 73 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:41,760 You were chosen to lead a 74 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:47,360 Vastly male dominant organization that's changed and evolved over time and we can get into that a little bit more 75 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,680 But you're also a technical delegate. You're on the technical committee for the AMGA 76 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:56,640 Setting the technical standards of hey, this is how we're going to train guides. This is the official party line 77 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:59,040 But also for the IFM GA, correct? 78 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:05,920 That's correct. I'm the vice president of the technical commission of the IFM GA just shaking up the old boys club Angela 79 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:07,920 I am doing my best 80 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:10,160 Yeah, my life's mission 81 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:12,880 To jump in there with both feet 82 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,000 Yep, and you've been involved with all kinds of other 83 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:18,800 I guess we call them passion projects as well 84 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:26,960 and I it seems like the theme that I see in your work in your cv is that you're always giving back to the mountain community 85 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,040 and I thought that was really cool and 86 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:30,960 um 87 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:32,240 I'd like a follow-up of that later 88 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:37,280 We'll put a pin in that and hear about some of your passion projects that you've been involved with and ways you give back to the 89 00:06:37,280 --> 00:06:39,280 Mountains and to the mountain communities 90 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:45,280 um, but then you're also on the instructor team for the AMGA so you train and examine new guides 91 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:47,920 and 92 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:49,920 What's your favorite color? 93 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:54,560 Oh boy, you just threw that right out there. Um, I'm gonna say yellow 94 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:57,440 Oh, I love fun. All right 95 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:02,160 Well, you have a very sunny disposition that's for sure. I think that's one of the things that attracted me 96 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:08,720 To your personality is that you're incredibly curious and relentless and a real hard worker as well 97 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:10,240 And I'm like, ooh 98 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:15,040 I want to I want some of that to rub off on me and it makes for very interesting discussion 99 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:19,760 So we've loosely scripted this one, but I'm really curious to see where we go and where we end up 100 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:22,560 um, so 101 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:24,320 the 102 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:28,000 In in short wrap up like there's not too many people that 103 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,640 Line up with your amounts of experience your certifications 104 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,960 And the way you also give back to the mountain community because you also teach 105 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,960 Avalanche classes on the rec level but more now on the pro level 106 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,800 So you're you're the pros pro teaching that the super expert 107 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:50,640 Actually, I've never I've never taught in the rec program. I've always been just a practitioner 108 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,280 um, and then 109 00:07:53,280 --> 00:08:00,480 The rec programs rolled out it was it was a good fit for me because I had been working in all the capacities of 110 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:03,760 forecasters 111 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,480 Backcountry 112 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:09,040 Patrol 113 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:16,400 But I've never taught the rec programs which um, I might evolve into doing that. It seems like another great way to give back 114 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:18,640 Yeah, because it's it's interesting 115 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:24,960 There's all these spokes of the of the wheel coming off the avalanche hub and I thought that was really illuminating for me as mountain guides 116 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:26,160 We're trying to avoid 117 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:27,200 whereas 118 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:28,080 ski controllers 119 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:34,240 We're trying to hunt them and kick them off to make it safe for the public and then heligiding is kind of interesting mix where we have 120 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,120 explosives, but we can't mitigate as much 121 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:44,560 As say ski patrol can and so we're doing a combination of hunting them and avoiding them with clients of the same 122 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,360 Maybe on the same day. So yeah, yeah, exactly 123 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:48,720 Yeah 124 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:54,320 All right. Well, Jeff. Thank you very much for that. You did that was that was very thorough 125 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:56,560 um 126 00:08:56,560 --> 00:08:58,560 I wanted to 127 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,960 Since we were kind of talking about the guide thing angela, can you is it true that you were? 128 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,520 You're one of only 11 women to have the ifmga 129 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:09,760 certification 130 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:11,760 No 131 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:16,480 There's more. Yes, there's 15. Was that just when you got it? 132 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:19,600 I was the sixth 133 00:09:19,680 --> 00:09:21,680 woman in the u.s. Um 134 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:28,640 And now there's 15 women that have been trained certified by the mga in the u.s. And 135 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,200 We don't have exact 136 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,400 numbers from the ifmga, but 137 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:40,400 It's likely that there's um, you know, well over like a couple hundred women 138 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,680 That are certified internationally out of 7,000 139 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:46,160 Got 140 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:47,760 7,000 guides total 141 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:53,680 So it's still very very much a minority in the u.s. We have yeah now. We've just recently certified our 142 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:56,320 200th 143 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:58,320 ifmga mountain guides, which is huge 144 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:00,480 Wow nice 145 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:07,280 So this is actually kind of fun because you and I met each other just filming doing some videos for youtube basically 146 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:14,160 And my only prerequisite to knowing you was just what jeff told me it was like you're the president of the american mountain guide association 147 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:16,800 And you're a badass like that was it 148 00:10:17,680 --> 00:10:18,880 so 149 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:24,480 Then you know like what we meet up we hang out we shoot some videos like we had a lot of fun 150 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:26,880 It was fun day and then it's cold 151 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:32,320 It was cool that you agreed to come and do this because I got to kind of go and like look into you and kind of like 152 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:37,200 Read through all your accomplishments and I listened to the blister podcast you did back in 2019 153 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:39,520 And 154 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:44,240 It is it's like such a classic. I feel like this happens a lot in the ski world 155 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:50,400 That's all I have exposure to but where you're just sort of hanging out with someone and then the more you start learning about them 156 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:51,920 You're like whoa 157 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:53,920 Wow, like that person is 158 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:55,920 so 159 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:57,920 unassuming and chill 160 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,160 And then they just have this like 161 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,160 This awesome 162 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:06,160 Accomplishments list so I this was like kind of a pleasure to go through and 163 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:11,840 Learn a little more about you in this way and now I now I get to kind of like talk to you about some of this stuff 164 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:14,000 Oh, that's that's 165 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,400 I'm flattered, you know all that stuff is 166 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,440 That's all what I've done, but that's not who I am 167 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:25,520 You know so when I'm with people like you and jeff hanging out. I'm just me 168 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:30,800 And all that stuff is my experience and for some reason I've been 169 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:39,360 Relentlessly driven to just go on from one thing to the next and I've enjoyed it throughout and learned a ton 170 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:44,560 But I don't really define myself by the things I've done. It's more just being me 171 00:11:45,680 --> 00:11:49,200 Well, I feel like that's a very humble and admirable 172 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,000 way to go through 173 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,520 Life to be honest and it's probably why you're so fun to hang out because you're not all 174 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,320 Look at me. Look at me. It's probably why I'm still alive too 175 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:09,200 The mountains have a way of serving up that dose of humble pie on a regular basis 176 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,240 exactly 177 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:17,760 Angela I gotta say that the inner terry gross in me is like chewing through my tongue 178 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:22,800 To like not ask you so how would you describe yourself? 179 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:27,760 Like let's take away all the accolades all the achievements all the certifications 180 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,520 Who is Angela haws or you know, how do you see yourself? 181 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:36,640 Well, that's I have a name. That's my name Angela haws, but who I am is 182 00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:40,720 Someone who has gone through life 183 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:47,120 With struggles like everyone else and has learned from them and I'm 184 00:12:48,560 --> 00:12:51,520 Trying to get back to that inner child that was the perfect 185 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:57,760 semblance of me and through all these experiences I get closer to that because 186 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:05,120 I begin to realize that I'm I'm just like everybody else and we're all connected in that special way 187 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:07,760 and so more than 188 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:12,160 And more than I did like the last 40 50 years 189 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,840 I'm just trying to just be as present as possible and 190 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,200 be totally comfortable in my own skin and 191 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,440 And walk my talk as much as possible. That's 192 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:28,000 That's what I'm trying to do and and and I'm not really trying. I'm just doing it 193 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:34,000 Does I mean you spent you spent so much time in the mountains. Does is that still like your happy place? 194 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:38,160 You're still your safe place like where you go out and it's like oh 195 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:42,240 Yeah, it's yeah like yesterday. I just 196 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,720 Climbed up red three with the part ski partner and 197 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:51,600 Just had amazing turns a little bit rocky on the way down 198 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:56,160 We chose a you know, the most conservative line down and and we you know 199 00:13:56,160 --> 00:14:04,160 Checked out the snowpack on the way up and listened to all the signs and used aspect avi which I'm really um 200 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,880 Trusting to be a a good partner in the mountains as well 201 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:12,480 And had it was a beautiful day. It was supposed to be like, I don't know 20 below wind chill 202 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,840 But there wasn't a breath of wind. We're on the summit. It was like 203 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:18,240 blue and 204 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:22,320 Unbelievably, we haven't had much wind effect with the last couple storms 205 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:26,160 So it's just uh, finally a blanket of snow everywhere and uh, 206 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:32,720 Just another beautiful day on the mountains. Yeah, so that's my happy place and skiing has definitely become my my 207 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:37,600 passion sport and something that I wish I could do it all year round 208 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:40,880 Is that 209 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:42,640 Oh, Jeff you go 210 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:44,480 All right, sorry to step on your toes, Dave 211 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:51,360 But oh, yeah, angel you've had adventures all over the world and I loved hearing about your your motorcycle trip through mongolia 212 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,360 and you know 213 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:58,480 Big Himalayan peaks and like all over the place and and for decades and decades 214 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,240 What does adventure mean to you? What what do you? 215 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,120 Seek when you're going on an adventure 216 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:11,840 Yeah, you know every day is an adventure really but when I'm like going on a adventure 217 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:15,200 um yesterday's adventure because you said 218 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,200 Like this but it's always a little different and you have to 219 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:26,080 Do it. Yeah, totally. Well, you know for me an adventure is like just going out and and having 220 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:28,800 a bit of a plan but 221 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:36,160 Just being open to all the things that emerge along the way that influence the decisions and the direction that I go with whatever 222 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:38,800 Whatever it takes and it's interesting 223 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,600 You um referred to my motorcycle adventure on a children's motorcycle 224 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:45,760 in fact I 225 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,160 needed an adventure of a new kind 226 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:49,600 in 227 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:51,360 2020 and 228 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:55,840 Signed up with a friend to go to mongolia and race children's motorcycles 229 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:01,280 49 cc motorcycles for 10 days across mongolia and 230 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,000 The company that organized it 231 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:05,760 They 232 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:11,600 Know how to define adventure. It's because they didn't even tell us where we were going to start or where we 233 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:20,000 Were going to end so we didn't even have the opportunity to do, you know how guides were always like looking at maps and doing tour 234 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:26,080 Planning and looking at like shortcuts and ways that we can maximize number of summits or whatever 235 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:28,560 None of that we had paper maps 236 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:34,720 They told us where we were going to start and where we're going to finish literally the day we got on the plane to go to mongolia 237 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:39,920 which is no easy place to get to and uh and then they bust us out to 238 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:41,360 um 239 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:46,800 The the world's tallest statue of genghis khan and we started there and they 240 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:49,840 As you do as one does that's right 241 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:57,840 Introduced our little mini motos and uh told us where the finish line was and of course that you they expect you get a run out of gas 242 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:04,560 You don't speak the language. You're going to get lost and um you have to carry everything that you need 243 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,080 For 10 days on a 40 cc motorcycle 244 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:11,280 So for me, I was like the perfect size. I'm small 245 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,400 My partner's small you guys would be a little bit big 246 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:22,800 But there were guys on these bikes that were very large and it was such an exercise and problem solving for everybody and everybody handled it 247 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,560 differently and you know, I think that's one of the beautiful things about 248 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:31,920 adventure is it's like your problem solving and thinking on your feet and 249 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:34,800 your goal is 250 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:39,200 Either the summit my goal is always coming home. So the summit isn't the main goal 251 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:45,200 and making decisions along the way that maximize your fun 252 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:52,160 and maximize your um ability to return maximize your risk tolerance and 253 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:58,880 Maximize your ability to problem solve to manage risk along the way. So I guess for me adventure is 254 00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:01,920 Having fun in a new place 255 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:07,520 doing something that's challenging that is always part of it and then 256 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:13,120 Engaging fully in the decision-making process with whoever I'm doing it with 257 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:18,320 and and and also with the goal of coming back friends because that 258 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:22,160 In intense adventures, that's not always the easiest thing to do if you're 259 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:30,880 In a tent with someone for you know, 10 days in a storm and um, you know, it's it's it's all about attitude for 260 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:38,880 Adventure and you know any any day can be seen as an adventure then and I think adventure has a connotation of like 261 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:41,440 extreme risk or 262 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:46,320 Um, you know challenging someone to their ultimate potential, but for me adventures just 263 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,840 exploring the world and uh my interaction with it 264 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,040 Um in a way that's fun 265 00:18:53,680 --> 00:19:00,000 I like how you said staying open to the possibilities. I was like, oh that that resonates really strongly when you're 266 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:05,360 Slightly strongly when you said that that my energy perked right out. I was like, oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah like that 267 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:11,120 Yeah, like yesterday and up we like skinned across all these rocks, you know 268 00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:17,760 We're on southerly face and slopes that we knew were really shallow and we weren't gonna we didn't have an old snow problem there 269 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:20,400 and 270 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:21,840 we're like 271 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:23,840 How are we gonna ski down? You know, it's like 272 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:32,480 I was open to the possibility of finding a safe way down, but it didn't look very promising on the way up and then that unfolded on the way down 273 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,680 We were able to keep our skis on the entire way down from the summit 274 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,480 We hit a few rocks, but but not not so bad 275 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:44,080 But you know, if we would have looked at that um going across and not seeing that opportunity 276 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,680 Would it we would probably would have just turned around it's like this isn't going to be fun at all because there was 277 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,560 Considerable elevation with rocks 278 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,840 Sometimes you have to put yourselves in a position to get lucky 279 00:19:54,400 --> 00:20:01,920 And we might be walking back down this that might be how it is, but that's right. Let's go take a look. Yeah, that's okay too 280 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,880 I love I love the the idea of like the openness 281 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:07,920 to me that's a huge part of it because 282 00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:11,920 Like as a perfect example the first time at banks 283 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:15,760 He called me out of the blue like a friend of mine was like, hey 284 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:19,280 We need to get more b-roll for this project they're working on and it's the middle of summer 285 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,280 and like 286 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:25,120 He's like here's this guy's number. He's a mountain guy. He lives in Crested Beard 287 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:30,080 And I call him and the first he's like do you have ice climbing gear and I was like no 288 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,960 Also, it's june like what are you talking about me? 289 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:36,800 and 290 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:40,000 And then he was like, okay, that's cool, but you got ski stuff and I was like, yeah 291 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,960 And he was like, okay sweet. We'll see you tomorrow and then I was just like well 292 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:48,160 Dude, what am I getting into right now? Like we need ice climbing gear in the middle of summer 293 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,520 But just sort of that mentality of being like 294 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:59,360 Well, it'll probably be fun if you know nothing else it'll be a good story and you know 295 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:04,400 I'm not someone who at this point in my life wants to be taking crazy crazy risk, but 296 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:11,360 That doesn't mean I can't still have like ridiculous fun going and doing stuff that I'm not sure how it's gonna work out 297 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:13,600 Yeah 298 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:15,600 I feel like that's 299 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:20,320 I don't know that's like what was the adventure. I mean that sounds you can't just like leave a saying like that 300 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:26,480 Oh, that was the I think you probably saw it. It was the video that we did where Jeff was skiing down the treasury shoots 301 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:28,800 it's like 302 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:30,800 I just went up and Jeff. What was that called? 303 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:36,800 Yeah, so some people call them the twin cool wars of treasury. They go into North Pole Basin 304 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:42,800 So you start at 13,000 feet and it's often great skiing in June July. Maybe even August in some years 305 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:48,080 And so I think we were sometime in July maybe and I was like Dave, you know 306 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:54,160 You don't want to fall because you may not be coming back if you do you sure you're okay on this and 307 00:21:54,960 --> 00:22:00,400 Dave just sideslipped it with shooting the video while I was skiing it. I was like, he'll be just fine 308 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,280 But then I took turns 309 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:09,040 I have to go with that footage of it and it's a measured 50 degrees as well with a dog leg 310 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:14,960 So it's narrow. It's just enough to turn but it's uh, it's spicy and rewarding but 311 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:19,040 You know not something you would usually do for a first date as a tour 312 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:25,760 And and and certainly not you know filming the guy skiing ahead of you 313 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,600 As you slide down behind and that Dave was super chill in the down 314 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,360 But he's like, hey, I think I'd like a rope for the up because I haven't really done any cramboid 315 00:22:33,360 --> 00:22:35,360 And I was like, yeah, of course no problem 316 00:22:35,360 --> 00:22:39,760 You know, we're two and I had and all I had was my alpine boots 317 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:46,960 El Moro, Dabela's are just no flex at all. So I was hiking up like this. I was like kept getting pushed back 318 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,520 Frankenstein's like Jeff, help 319 00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:55,760 You know, we had thought about that and we brought in a little bit of rope and had a cramp on so 320 00:22:55,760 --> 00:23:00,400 We're always prepared. Yeah, usually I wouldn't say always but usually 321 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:07,840 Hey, should we segue into your adventures in the avalanche world and you got a pro to your teaching coming up? 322 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:09,440 Yeah 323 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,960 So what's a pro to for who's it targeted at? 324 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,600 And what skills? 325 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,000 Are they going to get in that course? 326 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:23,760 Pro to is the highest level training you can get in the u.s. Currently 327 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:26,640 And this is targeted towards 328 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:33,040 Folks that are transitioning and aspire to be leaders in their operations. It's very geared towards 329 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:38,960 Operational forecasting operational forecasting and and operational risk management in 330 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,800 the context of working in avalanche terrain, so 331 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:52,160 Artificial students are ski patrollers backcountry ski guides avalanche forecasters. We've had 332 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:56,400 Event managers for free ride skiing competitions 333 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,080 And 334 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,080 What else? 335 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:07,120 Yeah, heli forecasters like mechanized operations. So 336 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:09,840 It's it's an amazing course because 337 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:14,800 The diversity of the clients of the students really lends to the 338 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:17,760 the 339 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,280 The 340 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:25,200 Learning that goes on it's not just from the instructors, but the sharing of all the students because they get in 341 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:31,760 pods small working groups and their challenges for the program are 342 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:34,720 Developing a forecast 343 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:40,240 baseline forecast based on the snowpack that that we're working in which is always interesting here in the north San Juan's 344 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,280 And then and this is for the Silverton avalanche school just a little bit south of where I live here 345 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,440 and in 346 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:54,800 There's small pods. They're given a different challenge each day. So one challenge will be develop an operation 347 00:24:55,360 --> 00:25:00,160 for a risk management plan and a forecasting plan for backcountry ski operation 348 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,160 And they have a terrain envelope in which 349 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:11,600 They're assigned and which has numerous different avalanche paths and some very moderate and some very extreme terrain 350 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:16,480 And we go out into that terrain and figure out where is the uptrack? 351 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:21,120 Where's the safe go-to uptrack? How can you guide this terrain in any condition? 352 00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:26,480 Even in high avalanche danger. Can you can you produce a day of guided skiing here? 353 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,600 And then you know looking at where runs are going to be and 354 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:35,520 looking at the eight scale that the avalanche terrain exposure scale and 355 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,760 putting the avalanche problems into the terrain 356 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:44,800 That are specific to if I have an old snow problem a persistent slab problem 357 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:49,920 This is generally in the terrain where I'm going to find that consistently and that's pretty 358 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,720 easy in the San Juan's because 359 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,160 northerly east and west aspects traditionally 360 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:57,760 host a 361 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:02,480 Persistent slab problem sometimes throughout the entire year if we don't have much snow depth 362 00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:08,720 And then we do another operation which is looking at a highway transportation 363 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:14,400 corridor for a mine and they have to look at how they're going to mitigate 364 00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:17,120 And manage 365 00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:22,320 Workers mine workers gone in on a daily basis many shifts many times a day 366 00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:28,320 How they're going to keep that road and the exposure to avalanche hazard manageable? 367 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:33,600 And here we're getting in more into the explosives they might use 368 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:38,880 The remote avalanche control systems and where they might place those in the terrain 369 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,360 And then what a snow safety plan will look like for that operation 370 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,040 And then the next operation is developing a ski area 371 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:52,320 And so now they have like three lifts that they can put in the terrain 372 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:58,080 So they've got fixed infrastructure that's exposed to avalanche hazard and they have to have mitigation protocols 373 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,320 They have to have 374 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,760 Closure boundaries for the ski area 375 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:12,720 They have to have like a protocol for snow safety and know where to target specific problems given in the storm or given a persistent slab 376 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:18,480 Wind slab problem and then development of treat develop a treatment plan for that 377 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,800 And then the last exercise is they've evolved to be consultants 378 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:28,240 So now they go in and they review their peers operations and they provide 379 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,960 Feedback on how they think they did 380 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:40,560 And so it's a really great course for folks that like us love snow love 381 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,760 Managing the risk of avalanche hazard and exposure and 382 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,560 Look are looking to have a career 383 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,920 In that because there's there's a lot of different 384 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:59,280 Avenues that you can take as a snow safety professional beyond guiding that we're familiar with that 385 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:01,440 you know 386 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:06,880 Any infrastructure that's built in avalanche terrain requires avalanche consultants to go in and design 387 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:14,080 avalanche atlases mitigation plans things like that. So it's a great program. It's you know, you're 388 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:20,320 I get to work with the highest level people and their careers already that are developing to be leaders and 389 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:25,200 um, the the avalanche industry is as you too well know has changed 390 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,600 significantly over the years in in many ways thanks to the canadiens 391 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:36,080 and a framework called the conceptual model of avalanche hazard that gives us a 392 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:42,640 risk management decision making tool to work through the steps before we actually get even into the terrain 393 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,040 So we make good decisions 394 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:52,800 Why we're in a safe place and we're thinking soundly before we go out there and obviously we can change our plan 395 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:57,040 But only so far. Yeah. I love that idea of hey 396 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,160 Most of the risk management happens at home 397 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,680 when we're warm dry well fed 398 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:11,040 And we can have a conversation that's not in a blizzard and we can screen out most of the risk. I think that's a big 399 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,040 um 400 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:14,880 secret or 401 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:20,320 Misconception that we are not shooting from the hip as guides when we're on the mountain a lot of it is chess 402 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:27,600 And it's 3d chess mapped out the night before the morning of and then the last little bit 403 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,920 Just the tip of the iceberg happens in the field 404 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:31,680 That's right 405 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:33,680 Yeah 406 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,720 Exercise to go through and like those different 407 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:41,760 It sounds so great really creative and also super collaborative 408 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:43,840 That's right 409 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:49,040 Well when I took my canadian level 2 which is a little bit it's a longer program than the 410 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,680 The one that we offer here in the states 411 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:58,560 one of the coolest exercises because a lot of this evolves around leadership teamwork communication, right and as 412 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:06,560 People who have evolved in our careers. Well, oftentimes we're kind of set in our ways. We are a little bit opinionated sometimes 413 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:09,680 and um 414 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:15,280 oftentimes people don't speak up their opinions in a group and um, so looking at 415 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,080 communication and bias and uh, 416 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,200 The way that we work as teams and the way that leaders 417 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:23,760 Encourage their teams to operate 418 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:31,760 Um was really cool in the canadian model because one of our exercises was looking at case studies, but we had that we had different 419 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:37,120 Um roles so one would be the devil's advocate and one would be 420 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:39,920 um, you know the the 421 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:47,520 The person that's like uber stoked that is over confident one would be the old crusty person that's been there forever 422 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,440 Yeah, exactly. The one would be the newcomer who's hesitant to speak up 423 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:57,680 And we would have these sticky notes and so each exercise we would play a different role which was absolutely 424 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,080 awesome to just 425 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:05,200 think in that way because we don't often think outside the box of our own head and 426 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:11,840 Communicate how we would expect that person to communicate and it really helped bring out 427 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:20,960 Biases and it helped us see how everybody's opinion is valued in that process that communication process when you're making decisions 428 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,240 Before you go out into the field and it was it was super cool 429 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:26,320 exercise 430 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:30,960 Wait, so I have a question so when you're you're doing these like hypothetical, you know 431 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:35,840 You said like we have to plan out like a safety in an out route for a mine or something like that 432 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,960 Like are they based off of real life locations? 433 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,440 Or is it just uh these are based 434 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,760 We have so many mines here in the santa and wands and we also have a lot of 435 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:48,960 backcountry ski guided guided terrain 436 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,880 um, not so much for the mechanized like we're our 437 00:31:53,520 --> 00:32:00,800 Operation areas not too far away from silberton mountain which has you know, that's mechanical ops. They have lift a lift one lift 438 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,360 and heliops 439 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,280 So it's pretty realistic and the mines that 440 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:13,040 Um, we're forecasting for there. It's actually mines that the head of all these valleys that are defunct 441 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,920 You know, they've they've long as long sands gone away 442 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,800 But the actual physical structures and the roads to them are are still in existence 443 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:27,200 So that makes it with a lot of avalanche exposure. So it's really an ideal place for this program 444 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:33,200 It'd be funny to tell students. That's why they went defunct because they got avalanche and wiped out their operations 445 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:35,920 It could be true 446 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:42,560 Those guys were amazingly bold. They would out there their way of mitigation would would be um 447 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,200 tunneling through avalanche debris 448 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,040 Which then they avoid completely avoided the avalanche 449 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:54,320 We just go under the tunnel and take their mule trains and there's so many cool 450 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,360 photographs and stories from the mines and the 451 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:02,240 Along the highway 550 here. It's it's just but not they were so bold 452 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:07,520 I just remember like I grew up in Durango, but like 453 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:14,160 Some of the mines you come across or like you wouldn't even know your buy mine and then all of a sudden you're just like wait, there's 454 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,120 Is that a freaking mine like they're everywhere. How did they get here? 455 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:24,640 They're everywhere. Is that in u-ray? There's like a ladder. That's just like up on the cliff 456 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,200 And it's like if you're sitting in the hot springs jeff. I don't know if you've ever seen this but 457 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:33,360 You look like you know, there's like, I don't know what 800 foot cliff above you 458 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:40,960 And 200 feet up the 800 foot cliff. There's just a wooden ladder going up another like 150 foot stretch of it 459 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,440 And it really puts into perspective. Just you're like, oh my god these people 460 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:50,880 Yeah, they're at risk. Wow. They're Tuesdays. We're the craziest thing that we've ever done 461 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:58,880 So, Angela you've been grappling with risk for decades now in the outdoor industry and you know, what you're describing 462 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:06,960 Is so far removed from what the average person could ever even imagine and all these different ways that avalanche professionals could 463 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:09,920 implement a risk management program 464 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:17,200 How has your thinking of risk evolved over the years and since you've been working as a as a mountain guide? 465 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:23,200 Well, it's evolved significantly having more of a process to 466 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:30,720 Make decisions with and you know, that's really only been in the last 15 years previously 467 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:35,120 It was almost all either acceptance or avoidance 468 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:40,480 Which was mostly avoidance and that I think that's why I'm still here is because 469 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:46,240 You know, I have listened to my gut throughout my life and that is not 470 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:53,760 That is not a reliable way to to go about business when you're in the mountains, but it has always worked for me 471 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:56,560 But I've always 472 00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:58,560 looked at 473 00:34:58,560 --> 00:34:59,440 mountains 474 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,880 And the risk that that I've been exposed to 475 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:08,640 Through learning as much as I can from the experts and from a very young age 476 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,240 I took my first avalanche course on red mountain pass. Oh, wow. It's coming full circle 477 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:17,200 1983 with Rod Newcomb and Don Bachman 478 00:35:18,240 --> 00:35:26,640 And I stayed at the st. Paul Lodge and was a very green Presley college student on telemarked skis. None of us could ski 479 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,400 Yeah, and I was hooked those two 480 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:33,280 really clearly were 481 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:35,920 like snow gurus and 482 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:44,480 And you know, we just looked up to them like they were they knew everything there was to know about moving through the mountains and 483 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:46,160 and I 484 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:50,160 There was so much I didn't know I didn't even know what questions to ask at that point 485 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:54,880 but I fell in love with this place and a healthy respect for it and 486 00:35:55,840 --> 00:36:03,040 Took a pro two years later and and then just started working and it was really through the work opportunities that I 487 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,800 Had that my relationship to risk emerged 488 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:09,360 through the training 489 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,720 working for outward bound working for prescott college 490 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,000 I used to teach whitewater kayaking programs which were 491 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:24,080 For prescott college that were probably the riskiest thing I ever did and I think that's why I got really into rock climbing 492 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:30,160 Because I realized if I had a rope I could be much more in control rather than just yelling at people telling them what to do 493 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,160 When they're underwater 494 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,280 On a rock like oh my goodness 495 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:37,920 and so most of my 496 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:46,560 Experience with risk and my learning has come through working for programs that provide great trainings and and 497 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:53,280 A solid framework around how to move with a group through the mountains 498 00:36:53,280 --> 00:37:00,560 And now that's evolved to me being a trainer. So it's been like this theme of train the trainer and now I'm the trainer 499 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,560 that's training the trainers and 500 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,080 It's it's been great and I I have 501 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:13,920 utmost respect for all my climbing partners and scheme partners that have not approached it from an educational 502 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:20,320 Place and I you know, I think I'm just inherently curious and I've always valued education 503 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:28,000 So I pursued kind of that direction to to learn how to move about in the mountains and my friends that haven't 504 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:34,400 You know, they've had more of the school of hard knocks, which I've certainly had plenty of as well 505 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,560 But they approach risk very differently 506 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:44,320 Which I think is is highly valuable when I'm out in the mountains with them and we can have discussions on what they're seeing and why they 507 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,440 Why they think we should go up there or we shouldn't and 508 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:54,000 Um, it leads to really interesting conversations that are often different than I have when I'm with pros 509 00:37:55,360 --> 00:38:00,960 Can we dive in to something you said that I perked up at where you said 510 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:03,920 my 511 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:08,560 It was contradictory, but I think we can explain it to the audience 512 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,440 Where you are talking about your gut and risk 513 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:16,160 Don't get Jeff going about the gut 514 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:22,480 Well, if we take a high level view like neuroscience has no idea where the seed of consciousness is 515 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:27,040 And a lot of folks are like it might as well be the gut as well as the brain 516 00:38:28,240 --> 00:38:32,640 And so when we talk about my gut felt bad, I don't like this 517 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,920 You know, what how is your gut served you? 518 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:40,640 And and when when would you listen to your gut and when would you be like, hmm? 519 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,920 I think my gut just wants to ski steep powder today 520 00:38:46,720 --> 00:38:52,480 How do you differentiate that how is your gut served you well to keep you alive is like, uh, you know 521 00:38:52,720 --> 00:38:54,720 How does your gut talk to you? 522 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:59,040 When you when your conscious brain might not be on as caught up to your gut 523 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:08,560 Yeah, it's a really hard one to nail down hard one to describe because it's it's it's a feeling and it's a knowing at the same time and 524 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,160 You know, there's days where I don't even leave the house 525 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,520 I have a plan to go and I just like I go I wake up and I got 526 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:17,840 I have like spidey 527 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:24,320 Senses that are just like ooh something just doesn't feel right about today and you know, maybe it's the roads or 528 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:29,520 Or maybe it's something that happened yesterday on the mountains that that didn't sit well with me 529 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,120 But there's just that 530 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,280 Thing that I've come more to listen to when I when it 531 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:46,560 Comes across it just is a fleeting thing. It's it's not up in here, which is super interesting and I find I have to override my 532 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,920 Cognitive thinking to really start to listen to it 533 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:55,120 and and sometimes like when I'm actually in the moment and 534 00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:03,600 My gut speaks to me and my spidey senses perk up. It is a feeling right in my gut like it's literally 535 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:09,600 Kind of like that constriction a bit of butterflies like uncertainty 536 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:12,880 and 537 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:17,120 the more you listen the more I listen to that the more I've trusted it and 538 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:19,760 I think it's something that 539 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:23,120 Is very easy to discount because we're so 540 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:31,440 Thought oriented. We're so like we think in our brains and there's so many stories going on then there all the time 541 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:39,120 That it's difficult to override it, but I've begun to trust it more that it is something that I really pay attention to 542 00:40:40,720 --> 00:40:42,480 There was another part to your question there 543 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:47,680 I would say something to this also though and correct me if I'm wrong. You said something 544 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:52,160 That I think is key to listening to your gut in the right way, which is you have a healthy respect for the mountains 545 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,880 Yes, which which I think if I think that actually probably can allow you 546 00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:03,600 To listen to your gut because you have that baseline of like hey at the end of the day like I'm I am getting to play here 547 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:08,640 That's right. I have no power over what happens here. And so like I think if maybe 548 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,480 You know correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like if you're kind of approaching 549 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,880 What you do from a fundamental level of like that mindset 550 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,560 That mindset then when you do have like the bad vibe or whatever 551 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:22,640 I think it's 552 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,440 probably easier to identify or at least 553 00:41:26,240 --> 00:41:28,240 recognize when it's happening 554 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:30,640 Yeah, I don't know. What do you think? 555 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:36,000 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, I am conservative 556 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:41,200 So I don't often put myself into positions where I'm gonna all of a sudden have 557 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:48,400 To really shift gears quickly the the places that I seem to get into trouble and in avalanche terrain 558 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:53,200 I'm very conservative my home snowpack is here in the north San Juan's which is one of the most 559 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,360 Hazardous snow packs in the world because it's shallow 560 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,400 High elevation we get a lot of sun which 561 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:03,040 Brings in a lot of solar rays 562 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,800 Radiation and because it's so high and clear we have very cold temperatures at night 563 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:11,520 Which further deteriorates our meek snowpack as it is and 564 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:18,000 Learning in this snowpack has given me tremendous healthy respect for the mountains 565 00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:20,720 for sure 566 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:27,840 Yeah, it's it's just something that and and if I if you don't mind if I go on a little bit of a tangent here 567 00:42:28,240 --> 00:42:30,240 That's what this is all about 568 00:42:30,240 --> 00:42:32,240 That's all we're doing here. We don't know 569 00:42:32,240 --> 00:42:38,800 I'm not gonna lie Angela. You know what the world really needs is two middle-aged white guys talking on a podcast right now 570 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:45,040 That's what they really need. That's what they're clamoring for so by all means digress as much as you as you want 571 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:47,920 Jeff and I are really saving the world 572 00:42:50,240 --> 00:42:57,520 Yesterday so great day up on on red didn't have any spiety senses like the just was a wonderful day 573 00:42:58,240 --> 00:43:00,240 coming down we 574 00:43:00,240 --> 00:43:02,240 observed a 575 00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:04,640 Large avalanche a size two 576 00:43:06,240 --> 00:43:12,240 That was skier triggered we stopped on highway five five five pulled off the road had a spotting scope looked at it 577 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:17,360 It was on the northwest face of red three which is rowdy terrain 578 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,320 And we looked across at that and could see 579 00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,040 tracks going in 580 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:28,000 To it and it looked very fresh and with further help with the scope 581 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:33,760 We were really far we're far enough away that like by the time we would have got there if someone was buried 582 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,080 There was no way that we were going to help 583 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:40,640 So we actually ended up driving down a con the sheriff to make sure that they were aware of it 584 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:47,760 Because we did we did see tracks going in we couldn't see tracks from our vantage point going out and we didn't know 585 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:56,720 um, how many people were involved if it was they had done two laps or if it was a larger party maybe a four or five 586 00:43:56,720 --> 00:44:02,320 um, so anyway, I just had an awful gut feeling and 587 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,080 when we saw that and and saw the tracks 588 00:44:06,720 --> 00:44:09,120 going into it and um 589 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:10,960 It just 590 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:12,960 Fortunately, everybody's okay. They 591 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:16,480 Deployed air but they both had airbags. It was a party of two 592 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:22,560 They both had airbags and they did skier skier trigger to rider trigger it and they were buried 593 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:29,200 Um, just very shallowly and able to dig themselves out without injury and self-exercise 594 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,440 So that was a happy happy ending 595 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:33,360 um 596 00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:38,800 And unfortunately in crested butte there was a fatality yesterday that was a very sad 597 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:45,200 tragic event and and my condolences to the family and friends of all involved there 598 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:48,640 um, so this 599 00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:55,680 Gut feeling I had it just was really illuminated especially going into teaching a pro too. I'm always thinking about 600 00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,600 risk tolerance and how different we all 601 00:45:00,720 --> 00:45:05,520 Look at risk and how we accept risk at different levels 602 00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:09,920 Just inherently is who we are and how we approach the mountains and how we see things 603 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:12,560 and interact and terrain and 604 00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:21,360 Um, it it just is so fascinating to for me how some individuals will accept a much much higher level of risk 605 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,760 And and I'm always curious to to understand 606 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:33,040 The thinking behind that why they accept that and do they feel like 607 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:41,040 You know the the modern equipment that they're able to you know deploy an airbag that that improves their chances of survival 608 00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:43,040 and that makes it acceptable 609 00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:50,720 Or are they um, is there pressure from social media that you know looking for the nice shot because 610 00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,400 everybody's posting powder pictures now and this 611 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:56,800 likes on this really nicely or 612 00:45:57,600 --> 00:45:59,920 You know, this is a new ski partner 613 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:04,240 And I really want to like make sure that I can ski with this person a lot because I like 614 00:46:04,720 --> 00:46:09,920 The lines that they're skiing. I mean, there's so many different factors there and when we 615 00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:10,880 We 616 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:13,040 dive into this training for the pro too 617 00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:19,760 We look at the operational risk tolerance the operational risk band and that's something that we all have in a working place 618 00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,440 in avalanche terrain is like what are our margins and how 619 00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:30,560 How how big of an avalanche can we produce and like you know when you're when you're heli skiing your margins are going to be much 620 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:37,280 Greater than they would when you're backcountry ski touring because you have the helicopter as a backup every every guide's got a radio 621 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:41,680 Everyone's wearing an airbag. You've got instant action with the explosives 622 00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:46,720 Got explosives to come to the to the rescue. So you know 623 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:54,480 Getting into bigger terrain is is more sorry. Have you ever used explosives on a rescue? I'd love to hear about that 624 00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,360 Yeah, wait, I was I have this question too. I was like I was like 625 00:46:57,920 --> 00:46:59,360 How does that work? 626 00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:04,400 You can test the slope before and you could keep testing it mitigating throughout the season. Yeah 627 00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:09,360 Yeah, you're like, okay, we found them go 10 meters that way put a charge in the ground 628 00:47:10,720 --> 00:47:12,720 Break it up 629 00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:14,880 Yeah 630 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:17,280 and you know, I just uh 631 00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:20,560 We've we have a lot more 632 00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:26,320 popularity amongst backcountry skiing everywhere, which is great that people are getting out and enjoying the mountains and uh 633 00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:28,560 it's 634 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:30,320 it's amazing what 635 00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:35,440 We can get away with and uh, I just really appreciate the tools that 636 00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:40,800 that you two are bringing to the community with um, 637 00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:44,800 Some processes for managing risk in avalanche terrain 638 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:50,960 That pros have been using for a while now. It's a it's a different different way of using the tools 639 00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:55,520 But it's the same mindset of like having a framework that's based on 640 00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:57,440 some data 641 00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:05,440 and your low your actual current observations and very good mapping tools to help with the decision making process and 642 00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:12,240 uh, just kudos to you guys because there's you know people not everybody takes avalanche courses and and there's a 643 00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:16,480 There's so much uncertainty there in the snowpack that even the pros 644 00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:23,520 Don't know so increasing our margins of safety for recreational is is just awesome and pros alike 645 00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:24,640 kudos 646 00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:28,880 Yeah, turns out almost nobody takes avalanche courses when you look at the data 647 00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:30,560 Is that right? 648 00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:34,480 Yeah, what is it? Jeff? It's like five million people play in the backcountry every year and 649 00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,040 20,000 or something taking avi course 650 00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:43,280 Yeah, it's like 300 years. We could get everyone educated at this rate. It's a good rate 651 00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:49,840 It's about that'll be super good percent of the public in avalanche terrain has not taken an avalanche course 652 00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:53,200 That's amazing. That's super scary 653 00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:56,160 Give or take you know, it's kind of back of the envelope 654 00:48:56,160 --> 00:49:01,520 But even if it's 90 percent has never taken an avalanche course like wow, this is the riskiest thing people are ever going to do 655 00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:02,320 and 656 00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:04,320 I think that was one of the 657 00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,640 goals we were striving for is like, hey 658 00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:12,400 This tool doesn't exist. How can we give people a simple framework that's similar 659 00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:18,880 To the guides list where you know, some of these meetings can be knocked down drag out about what's our go? 660 00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:24,240 No go terrain for the day and as it should be because our lives depend on it at work 661 00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:28,160 And I don't know how osha signs off on guiding 662 00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:36,400 I don't think they do or ski patrol or anything to do with avalanches my gosh avalanche mitigation in any way 663 00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:43,040 Um, you're dealing with explosives. You're dealing with avalanches and the most unpredictable, of course is the people 664 00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:50,080 Right and you know, did I have my coffee? Did I poop yet? Did my dog die? Oh my gosh, you know, all that changes how I 665 00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:54,880 You know show up for morning meeting in my conservative or aggressive mindset 666 00:49:55,280 --> 00:50:01,360 And I think that's one thing that aspect abbey gives the recreational user is like here is your run list 667 00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:04,160 It's very simple 668 00:50:04,240 --> 00:50:09,440 And that's maybe a a misperception. We're not as guides whatever the setting 669 00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:15,520 Mechanized or human powered. We're not making the judgment on the fly 670 00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:20,960 Because we have x-ray vision in the snow and my gut tells me the bulls gonna be good 671 00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:27,680 It's like no, no, no, there's so there's a whole season's backlog of tracking data cataloging data 672 00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,480 It's like accounting for snowflakes basically 673 00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:35,040 And you know, that that's what the pro too is really about 674 00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:39,440 And how do you share that data? How do you track the trends? 675 00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:44,240 And then choose the terrain where you're going to avoid the problems and stay on 676 00:50:44,720 --> 00:50:51,440 The right side of the slope angle the critical slope angle for the day and then be like, okay, this is our green list 677 00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:54,000 This is our red list. We cannot 678 00:50:54,880 --> 00:51:00,160 Switch on the the green light like that doesn't work. We can do it tomorrow, but I can't do it today 679 00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:08,480 It's the Elysees chain to the mast where you're like, I'm bound by this contract with my teammates and we're gonna hash it out 680 00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:11,440 And we're gonna hear everyone's opinion and my god 681 00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:16,880 You know, I think we've all been in working environments where we're like, this is a dysfunctional team 682 00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:23,040 Or this is a highly functioning team where everyone's opinion is respected taken into account 683 00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:29,040 And it's my obligation to speak up and be like, hey, I have a high degree of uncertainty about this 684 00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:32,240 I think maybe we're going too aggressive today. I think we need more data 685 00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:36,240 Let's do some explosives testing and let's find out and then we'll green light it tomorrow 686 00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:42,400 Yeah, exactly. There's so much background that goes into 687 00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:48,480 operational decision making or individual decision making as guides in a day that 688 00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:53,600 It is not seen on the front end when you're out guiding for sure 689 00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:59,040 And it's always great to have clients that are super curious and want to learn a lot about that 690 00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:03,760 Like pull back the curtain and be like, how do you make the sausage back here anyway? 691 00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:06,560 And then the you know around even 692 00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:16,400 Recreational avalanche programs, you know, we're out there you dig pits and you're looking at the layers and testing all the 693 00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,120 fingers hard and hand hardness and 694 00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:22,000 looking at crystals and 695 00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:25,680 um doing all the the tests and taking notes and 696 00:52:26,240 --> 00:52:28,400 what your tool does is it it 697 00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:35,680 It helps remove the that uh uncertainty about spatial variability and you know when we're 698 00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:38,400 looking in the snow 699 00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:39,680 it's 700 00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:42,480 A snow pit that that's one small piece of 701 00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:49,360 The puzzle in a vast slope that is often interconnected that has terrain features that are 702 00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:54,400 Variable different bed surfaces and so that little piece of information 703 00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:58,960 Although it gives us a lot of information is to like the structure of the snowpack 704 00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:01,440 It doesn't tell us where we can trigger a slide 705 00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:04,640 It doesn't tell us like if it is go or no go 706 00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:13,280 But what I like about aspect aviates just like puts that all over all the terrain based on the slope angle 707 00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:18,560 and on the aspect and the elevation that the problems have been identified by the forecast 708 00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:24,320 And then it lets us update that through our observations as we're traveling through the terrain 709 00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:30,320 With what we're feeling under our skis rather than like stopping to dig a pit that gives us only just a little piece of the puzzle 710 00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:34,400 Yeah, that one one millionth of the slope size 711 00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:40,720 My pit is so tiny and it I get the sense and I just want to clear it up for the listeners. It sounds like 712 00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:44,000 Correct me if I'm wrong. It sounds like your intuition 713 00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:46,720 your gut feeling 714 00:53:46,720 --> 00:53:49,840 You use that to make more conservative decisions 715 00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:51,840 But yes 716 00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:58,320 Do you use it to be like oh my gut feels good? Let's let's let's go steep and deep today and go rowdy 717 00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:05,200 Yeah, no not so much. I'm uh, it's more on the conservative side when I get to the steep and deep 718 00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:06,320 It's all 719 00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:08,160 database and 720 00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:11,760 looking at the signs and the forecast and the 721 00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:18,480 Where I am in the terrain slope angle is a huge one aspect elevation. I mean all of that 722 00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:21,280 time of year because the sun's 723 00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:25,120 interface with like different aspects depending on 724 00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:32,160 The month of the year. It's either higher or lower is going to impact different slope angles and aspects 725 00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:33,760 Yep 726 00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:35,520 Dana can I ask you? 727 00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:38,640 Oh, sorry, Jeff. We about to start talking about Dana Kahneman 728 00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:42,160 You know me let me just let this in and then you hit her up 729 00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:50,240 He says our intuition is is is our subconscious processing faster than our conscious brain can catch up 730 00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:57,200 And sometimes you're like, I don't know about this. I've just got a bad feeling. This doesn't feel right. Let's step back 731 00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:03,040 This doesn't feel right and oftentimes, you know, I can't put my finger on it during the moment 732 00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:06,800 But then we can talk it out later. I'm like, oh, that's what I was picking up 733 00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:12,960 But I just couldn't you just put out a whole bunch of variables that as a professional you're chewing on your subconscious is chewing on 734 00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:17,520 And working overtime that computer it's hard to get it to turn off 735 00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:23,600 Especially when there's a big storm coming in and you've got clients and it is just churning churning churning 736 00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:25,440 and 737 00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:27,040 I think that's 738 00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:29,040 Something to keep in mind as a beginner 739 00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:35,440 We don't have that pattern recognition going on and that those years in the field because 740 00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:39,920 For a normal professional. It's a hundred days in a team setting 741 00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:43,440 logging data making observations tracking trends 742 00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:45,520 debating 743 00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:48,160 vigorously in a group with experts 744 00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:52,800 It's not just oh, I feel good about this or I feel bad about it 745 00:55:53,200 --> 00:56:00,240 And and then sometimes it can be the opposite. It could be so simple like when you're in cb with mike and we're out touring 746 00:56:00,240 --> 00:56:06,560 And we would get these rumbling collapses and my sphincter just tightens up and I go 747 00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:12,720 And it's like my intuition says that's not good and that's all I need to know 748 00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:19,920 The earth just shook under our feet. I'm pretty sure that's a bad sign. Let's not ski anything steep today 749 00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:25,040 Yeah, we were on like a we were on like a pretty flat ridge when that was happening 750 00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:25,840 Yeah 751 00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:30,880 It was like flat terrain and the whole earth just dropped underneath of us multiple times 752 00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:34,560 I don't know make 10 11 collapses like a dozen. Yeah. Yeah 753 00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:38,640 I have to ask you something because we're talking all about like risk and like 754 00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:43,280 You know all these factors that you guys have taken effect and I think jeff you've also 755 00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:47,520 Guided here, but if when you go guide in Antarctica 756 00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:55,600 How do you first off manage risk because that I've never even been in arctic. I don't know like that sounds extremely tricky 757 00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:57,600 because it's so remote 758 00:56:57,760 --> 00:56:59,760 and also 759 00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:01,120 like 760 00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:06,080 It's I'm assuming you're going in the summer. So it's mostly sunshine the whole time, right? 761 00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:13,120 The sun's just circling around like how do you make spring? So it does get dark. Yep. There are night 762 00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:15,120 It's early spring 763 00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:21,600 So the yep the days are getting longer and it's it's more mild and we are on the Antarctic peninsula 764 00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:25,040 Which is much more maritime than the continental 765 00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:27,520 right bitter cold 766 00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:34,480 mass of Antarctica the the peninsula sticks out and is you know meets the drake passage and so you have a lot of 767 00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:40,480 Warm water well warmish water that's influencing the snowpack and the temperatures there 768 00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:44,000 So then how do I know how do you manage the risk? 769 00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:50,000 Like do you just have a helion call or what's the deal? No? No, no, that's a great question because 770 00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:52,880 um, it is a true adventure so the 771 00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:58,560 A lot of the risk of like getting there and deciding where we can go every day 772 00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:04,560 That's the cruise ship operator. That's the expedition leader that is like at the helm 773 00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:07,200 with the pilot the captain 774 00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:09,520 deciding like looking at 775 00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:13,760 maps of ice flows and where we can get into based on 776 00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:16,320 current ice wind direction 777 00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:23,680 Title direction all that kind of stuff so the kind of the big picture of like getting there and crossing the drake passage like 778 00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:27,200 That context is not is way beyond my pay grade 779 00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:31,520 Because that's literally one of the most dangerous places on earth throughout the whole drake passage 780 00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:34,480 So I managed the risk of being seasick 781 00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:38,400 Pro move pro move i'm a landlubber 782 00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:42,640 But it's worth it and then the penguins are definitely helpful in 783 00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:45,120 managing like 784 00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:51,440 Giving us indicators of like where we can get to shore because we can land the zodiac anywhere the penguins can 785 00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:56,800 Hop up onto shore and that's always way. That's that's really why it goes for the 786 00:58:57,360 --> 00:59:00,480 Crew handles the risk until they get you on the ice 787 00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:02,160 That's right 788 00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:03,360 and then 789 00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:09,440 I must imagine it must be really challenging to on-site because if i'm going to a glaciated place 790 00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:13,200 So we got crevasses sarac so those are ice cliffs that can break off 791 00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:15,200 We've got avalanches 792 00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:24,160 Um potentially steep terrain where people could slide on corn snow into the ocean or get avalanched into the ocean 793 00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:25,680 Oh my gosh 794 00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:27,200 and I'm guessing 795 00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:29,200 You know it's there's probably 796 00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:33,680 The glaciers are probably changing rapidly integrating like most places 797 00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:35,280 and 798 00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:41,200 You also have the added challenge of um, I can get regularly refreshed satellite imagery 799 00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:46,240 Of the glaciers at any time of the year and track the trends of the crevasse field 800 00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:48,720 So i'm like, oh, hey, we're definitely going to rope up for this zone 801 00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:50,560 Whereas this 802 00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:54,080 Zones a compression zone and for the whole year that haven't been crevasses here 803 00:59:54,560 --> 00:59:59,760 Do you have data like that and how do you manage all those variables? My palms getting sweaty 804 01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:04,960 Well, yeah, we had also like like sorry. I got one last thing like 805 01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:09,600 If you have someplace where like it it literally never 806 01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:10,800 Never 807 01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:12,800 Maybe never melts entirely 808 01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:15,040 so like 809 01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:20,400 Maybe i'm super in here in here. Help me out, but like wouldn't there just be like an old snow problem constantly 810 01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:24,800 No, but that's a really really good question 811 01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:28,880 And and there isn't there where it's a maritime snowpack 812 01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:36,000 You've got the glacier rather than the earth with the glaciers colder. So you typically aren't getting depth for 813 01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:40,480 Development it's all ice, you know all the snow's falling on ice and it's a 814 01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:44,160 From the core of the earth 815 01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:51,520 It's a virtual desert really it doesn't snow that much in Antarctica. It just persists for a long time because it remains cold 816 01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:57,840 So most of the problems that we're managing are if it's a persistent problem 817 01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:04,480 It's typically like a wind slab which will last for a couple days and and those are pretty easily avoidable, but um, we're not 818 01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:10,400 Fortunately managing old snow problems because that would even increase the complexity 819 01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:17,760 Of all those things we mentioned are easier to manage than the old snow problem on red pass in the backyard 820 01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:23,680 They are. It's unbelievable. That's very telling. It's amazing, you know, but we manage the risk 821 01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:28,480 You know your question about the mapping. I mean it's all on site guiding which is one of the most exciting 822 01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:31,040 things about guiding there because 823 01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:38,480 There are no good maps even paper maps. I mean the scale is is so large that you can't you know 824 01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:45,840 It'd be like contour lines would be like 200 meters apart, you know, just really very very poor definition and then 825 01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:48,400 the digital 826 01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:50,320 maps have 827 01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:53,040 It's almost impossible to know exactly where you're going to go 828 01:01:53,040 --> 01:02:00,640 So uploading maps to be offline is tricky and they're just not well developed for Antarctica yet at least for the peninsula 829 01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:03,200 So even though we do our best 830 01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:08,480 We we do track our tours and then when we come back say upload them to gaia or another app 831 01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:13,520 And then you'll have some terrain features that that you can see but still it's very very poor detail 832 01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:18,880 So it's mostly on site guiding and it's mostly going to places that we've been before 833 01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:23,680 So we're from we have some terrain familiarity from a guiding perspective 834 01:02:24,240 --> 01:02:26,480 But we always go up as soon as we get on shore 835 01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:35,840 We put the rope on we guide with in a team of two guides and four clients each and we share a zodiac 836 01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:41,920 Getting to shore together. We have radio communication throughout the day one team might go somewhere else 837 01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:43,920 but we're always communicating and 838 01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:51,280 And we're kind of our little mini safety net and then we also have safety in numbers because there's 25 guides and 839 01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:54,000 We don't always go to the same zones 840 01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:56,640 but we have a pretty robust 841 01:02:57,520 --> 01:02:58,640 group of 842 01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:03,440 Experience guides for any rescue that would be necessary. We don't use helicopters 843 01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:07,680 although there is some heliskeying going on down there now with some of our super yachts 844 01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:14,320 And we you know read the terrain as we're going up roped up and 845 01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:17,200 if the weather's bad the 846 01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:23,200 Guide out in front put some wands in to mark mark the way and mark some crevasses and 847 01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:28,800 It's awful if you have to wear the rope on the way down. It's very very rare 848 01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:32,560 That you do skiing with the rope on is awful 849 01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:35,120 It's the test. It sounds very tricky 850 01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:38,320 Ship on the downhill. Yeah, it's awful 851 01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:44,720 It's like the ultimate marriage test much easier to see the crevasses and you come up that way so you know where they are 852 01:03:45,360 --> 01:03:46,880 but oftentimes 853 01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:48,640 that exposure to 854 01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:52,080 the sliding and falling into the ocean is real 855 01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:59,040 And we do have corn spring and icy conditions oftentimes. So we always have boot crampons 856 01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:01,520 and oftentimes will 857 01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:09,520 Shoulder or or put our skis on our pack and then short rope our clients or set a fixed line up and down these exposed sections 858 01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:14,800 Unless unless we've got really skilled skiers, but that's oftentimes getting 859 01:04:15,360 --> 01:04:18,240 On and off shore is is the crux for sure 860 01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:20,880 Is is that something where like you 861 01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:25,760 They get you to shore and then they piece out back to the boat or they stay on shore 862 01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:32,640 Yeah, yeah, they're like running laps dropping people off and picking another group up and taking them to another landing 863 01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:34,960 We always send a couple guides out 864 01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:44,000 Before we go out with the clients to scout the landings and oftentimes we have shovels and wands and we'll put emergency gear there in case 865 01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:46,080 we would 866 01:04:46,080 --> 01:04:53,760 Get stuck there which has happened once where we had a hut. I got I was stuck with edger mcclain and dug workman 867 01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:59,520 Um for probably about four hours and fortunately we had a hut before we were extricated 868 01:05:00,640 --> 01:05:02,160 By the ship 869 01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:10,000 Like made a like eddy from the wind and they they sent a zodiac driver in to get us and it was it was really dicey 870 01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:17,040 We could have flipped that zodiac easily, but that's very rare, but we always have emergency rations on shore 871 01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:23,280 Um and and good backup good comps and then you know, you can't always get out and ski 872 01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:28,480 That's the goals to get out as much as possible, but some days it's just too too rowdy 873 01:05:30,240 --> 01:05:35,120 Is there like a specific window of time that you're only allowed to do it like you said it's spring 874 01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:40,720 So it does have a day and night cycle. Is that like a three month window basically that you're allowed to do that? 875 01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:43,760 Oh, it's probably about a two month window 876 01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:50,000 Um the trips that this company's starting to do is much earlier in the season now this now they're going on october 877 01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:54,560 We generally we're going in november once you get a little bit later 878 01:05:54,640 --> 01:06:00,800 It's just it you're dealing with an isothermal snowpack and it just doesn't have um enough structure 879 01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:03,680 And cold temperatures to support good skiing 880 01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:07,200 That's when you go to watch the go to see the penguins 881 01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:09,120 Okay 882 01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:10,480 Yeah 883 01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:13,840 Well, thank you for answering that I was I when I was reading through your 884 01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:19,680 It's a trip of a lifetime if any of you listening can afford it. It's definitely 885 01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:25,440 Put that on your your bucket list. It's uh, it's a remarkable wilderness area 886 01:06:26,240 --> 01:06:28,240 Do any of those people need cameraman? 887 01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:31,200 Yes, that's true 888 01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:36,160 And now would be an appropriate time um 889 01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:41,520 Angela a lot of times people ask me like hey jeff could you recommend a mountain guide for me? 890 01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:45,280 And I got to say I'm really fussy because 891 01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:48,800 There's a lot of very technically proficient mountain guides out there 892 01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:53,520 But I'm also looking for someone with a low risk tolerance where I 893 01:06:54,720 --> 01:06:59,680 I know the people are going to come back and you're on my short list of people that I would recommend 894 01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:05,040 And how would people get a hold of you if they wanted to go skiing or climbing with you? 895 01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:10,720 Because I know you do trips all over the world as well as locally right here in colorado 896 01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:12,960 So what's what's the best way to hit you up? 897 01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:20,000 Well, not instagram or facebook because I don't respond to messages there 898 01:07:21,040 --> 01:07:23,040 Don't 899 01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:24,480 Yeah 900 01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:30,000 email or my phone number. I think my phone number is on my website, which is very out of date 901 01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:32,880 my website is alpinist 902 01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:34,880 007.com 903 01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:36,400 or 904 01:07:36,400 --> 01:07:44,000 Angela haws.com and you can find me there and uh, you'll find my email address and that's the best way to reach out to me for sure 905 01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:48,400 Thanks for that. Which I gotta say you might have the best email address. I've ever come across 906 01:07:49,200 --> 01:07:55,760 The 007. Yeah, that was back in the day when we all of course I wanted alpinist dot at mac.com 907 01:07:56,320 --> 01:07:57,520 but 908 01:07:57,520 --> 01:08:04,880 That was taken so I like oh, I love me a huge james bond fan. So and I love the irony of like if you think back to like 909 01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:06,880 You know the old classic 910 01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:09,440 misogynistic bond 911 01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:24,240 Let people surf to your website there and then they can check out what your email is it's pretty good 912 01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:31,040 um, hey, you started me thinking with dave's questions on how do you manage the risk in Antarctica and 913 01:08:31,040 --> 01:08:35,200 um, one thing that I've been curious about and I think there's a 914 01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:41,760 A gaping hole in the guiding industry is we talk about risk management 915 01:08:42,800 --> 01:08:48,560 And we talk a bit about risk tolerance, but I've never worked for an operation that said hey 916 01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:51,280 This is our risk tolerance 917 01:08:51,840 --> 01:08:53,840 and what I mean is 918 01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:59,840 I was talking to a guide at our annual AMGA meeting and he works for a heli operation 919 01:08:59,840 --> 01:09:01,840 uh, way up north 920 01:09:02,480 --> 01:09:08,160 And they used to have a tongue-in-cheek motto that said it's okay to take a ride 921 01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:10,960 As long as nobody dies 922 01:09:11,280 --> 01:09:13,680 And that was what was told to clients 923 01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:16,480 And I was like 924 01:09:16,480 --> 01:09:17,680 Whoa 925 01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:23,280 I wish I had those superhero powers to be like oh, this will only be a d1 926 01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:26,480 and 927 01:09:26,480 --> 01:09:34,160 It's a high risk clientele and they're okay blowing an ACL but nobody is going to get buried or no one's going to get pushed off a cliff 928 01:09:35,440 --> 01:09:41,440 And they've since re-thunked that after an incident where one of their team was killed and they're like, okay 929 01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:44,080 it's not okay to take a ride anymore and 930 01:09:44,720 --> 01:09:47,840 That really got me thinking and I've asked my brother who's also 931 01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:53,440 Uh a guide and friend of yours and call he and he's working up at cmh this year 932 01:09:53,440 --> 01:09:59,360 I was like, I'll tell me about your training your orientation going in and and it seems like it's something that's not 933 01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:02,240 really articulated in the guiding industry of 934 01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:05,200 Are we okay? 935 01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:06,240 with 936 01:10:06,240 --> 01:10:09,440 I could imagine a spectrum of somewhere between hangnail 937 01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:15,840 All the way up to mass fatality worst case scenario where everyone in the group dies 938 01:10:16,400 --> 01:10:19,920 And there's this huge gray area of what is our risk tolerance? 939 01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:24,880 And then we start throwing in miners kids under 18 940 01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:30,880 And you're like, whoa, this is getting really tricky. We are making decisions 941 01:10:31,840 --> 01:10:36,080 for their parents who are ignorant of the risk involved 942 01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:41,760 Who are deciding whether their kids are going to be involved in this activity as well? 943 01:10:42,320 --> 01:10:45,600 And when I say ignorant, that's not condescending. It just means they're naive 944 01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:51,040 It's it's they don't have that depth of experience where we've lost tons of friends and colleagues 945 01:10:51,120 --> 01:10:54,720 We very well are aware of what could happen if things go wrong 946 01:10:54,800 --> 01:11:00,480 And and that weighs very heavily on us a lot when we're deciding what our run list is for today. So 947 01:11:01,920 --> 01:11:05,760 That was a bit of verbal diarrhea, but you've been grappling with 948 01:11:05,920 --> 01:11:06,800 You got a question there 949 01:11:06,800 --> 01:11:09,200 The risk management and you're about to teach it 950 01:11:09,760 --> 01:11:15,440 So what are some of the questions that you've grappled with? I'm not expecting like a silver bullet of here's the answer 951 01:11:15,440 --> 01:11:21,440 Jeff, I've got to figure it out. But I'm just curious about, you know, you've been head of an organization that 952 01:11:22,240 --> 01:11:25,600 could be called the largest guiding operation in the u.s. 953 01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:33,920 And there's a huge amount of risk exposure when you're having students be on the sharp end of the rope leading or guiding 954 01:11:34,480 --> 01:11:41,200 And it's like, whoa, you know, how do we manage risk in that operational setting versus heligiding versus in Antarctica? 955 01:11:41,200 --> 01:11:45,520 Yeah, you've done it all. So lay it on us. What are some of your thoughts? 956 01:11:46,720 --> 01:11:48,240 or questions 957 01:11:48,240 --> 01:11:50,240 It's all comes from the gut, Jeff 958 01:11:52,240 --> 01:11:57,360 So it's really important to drink lots of kombucha. You want to keep that gut flora happy 959 01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:07,360 No, I mean, that's a big question and you're absolutely right. I think it's not articulated well 960 01:12:08,400 --> 01:12:09,600 and 961 01:12:09,600 --> 01:12:13,280 The avalanche industry is evolving. So we are starting to 962 01:12:13,760 --> 01:12:20,320 develop more criteria around what is acceptable and what isn't and again as we talked about earlier, it's going to be different 963 01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:26,640 for like a mine that you're going to be driving in a vehicle 964 01:12:27,680 --> 01:12:28,640 that 965 01:12:28,640 --> 01:12:32,720 You're the the size of an avalanche that's acceptable 966 01:12:32,720 --> 01:12:40,160 To hit the road considering someone's in a vehicle and wearing avalanche transceivers and has rescue gear and radio comms 967 01:12:40,320 --> 01:12:47,280 Is going to be much higher than it would for backcountry operation where your resources are much more limited. You're on foot 968 01:12:48,480 --> 01:12:50,080 You don't have 969 01:12:50,080 --> 01:12:53,360 Maybe communication at all with the outside world. So 970 01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:56,800 But yeah, I think it's pretty 971 01:12:56,800 --> 01:13:03,920 Generally understood that we don't expose ourselves or guests to an avalanche that could 972 01:13:04,480 --> 01:13:07,200 Produce the size of a berry and kill a person 973 01:13:07,600 --> 01:13:11,520 Which is a size two a d2 destructive size to avalanche 974 01:13:12,160 --> 01:13:18,560 And that's not even that big of an avalanche really that can produce that much debris and if you 975 01:13:19,280 --> 01:13:20,240 um 976 01:13:20,240 --> 01:13:25,440 Consider that there might be a terrain trap that could multiply the debris 977 01:13:25,440 --> 01:13:30,320 um the depth um, then that that makes it even worse, but 978 01:13:31,200 --> 01:13:38,400 It it has I would say certainly amongst um ski patrollers been acceptable to ski cut 979 01:13:39,200 --> 01:13:41,200 size to terrain which is 980 01:13:41,920 --> 01:13:46,000 I think the culture could take a step back and reevaluate that a bit 981 01:13:46,880 --> 01:13:50,800 Because you are exposing workers to something that could produce a slide 982 01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:54,960 that could potentially kill someone and 983 01:13:55,520 --> 01:14:00,000 Where that slides got a release above or below and a ski cut 984 01:14:00,560 --> 01:14:02,880 Visibility there's a lot of factors there that 985 01:14:03,520 --> 01:14:07,040 um have been fairly accepted by that industry 986 01:14:07,680 --> 01:14:08,640 um 987 01:14:08,640 --> 01:14:12,320 Not all ski areas are like that so much have much smaller 988 01:14:13,440 --> 01:14:19,440 Tolerances they might say like we're not going to ski cut on any terrain that could produce a size 1.5 989 01:14:19,440 --> 01:14:25,040 And then again how we interpret the size of an avalanche is a whole another 990 01:14:26,080 --> 01:14:27,120 ball away 991 01:14:27,120 --> 01:14:35,840 My d2 might be a d 1.5 to you, you know, so there's there's so many factors there, but um, I think in the ski guiding 992 01:14:36,720 --> 01:14:40,560 realm, um, we've gotten comfortable with 993 01:14:41,520 --> 01:14:43,520 smaller avalanches like size one 994 01:14:43,520 --> 01:14:51,120 D1 that um could produce an avalanche but isn't going to result in a fatality necessarily unless there is some 995 01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:53,840 magnifier involved 996 01:14:53,840 --> 01:14:57,920 But it isn't well articulated. I think our run lists in the morning 997 01:14:59,040 --> 01:15:01,040 Kind of get at that 998 01:15:01,040 --> 01:15:06,240 But we don't necessarily articulate that consistently in the industry. It's a good point 999 01:15:06,640 --> 01:15:10,880 Okay, hold up. I gotta ask this question because I feel like I'm just like hearing this for the first time 1000 01:15:10,880 --> 01:15:12,880 Did you just like? 1001 01:15:13,280 --> 01:15:15,280 Are you guys saying that there's no 1002 01:15:16,160 --> 01:15:22,000 Like global standardization for risk threshold for any guiding operation. It's per no 1003 01:15:23,360 --> 01:15:27,840 It doesn't exist. Yes. No, that's wrong. Yes, there is like for a highway 1004 01:15:28,960 --> 01:15:32,640 Um, uh, like c dot the coloro department of transportation 1005 01:15:32,880 --> 01:15:34,880 They're gonna shut down the highway 1006 01:15:34,960 --> 01:15:40,000 If a size a d3 avalanche could hit the road potential 1007 01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:44,000 And you know bury and destroy a car 1008 01:15:44,960 --> 01:15:46,320 so 1009 01:15:46,320 --> 01:15:48,320 Yes 1010 01:15:48,320 --> 01:15:54,720 There are consistencies. I don't know if that's the same in europe as it is in us and if it's the same in canada, but um, 1011 01:15:55,440 --> 01:16:01,680 You know nuances with legal system where if i'm a mountain guide in europe 1012 01:16:02,240 --> 01:16:08,160 And let's say i'm in italy if it's considerable or high danger and I have an accident and my client dies 1013 01:16:08,160 --> 01:16:10,960 I'm automatically convicted of manslaughter 1014 01:16:11,680 --> 01:16:14,160 Because what's the definition of considerable danger? 1015 01:16:14,880 --> 01:16:16,000 Yeah 1016 01:16:16,000 --> 01:16:21,520 It's human triggered. It's likely likely and the judge is like 1017 01:16:22,880 --> 01:16:27,520 Why were you going there and I'm like, well, I didn't think it was gonna slide and they're like, that's right 1018 01:16:27,600 --> 01:16:32,800 You didn't think your sole job your prime directive is to bring them home alive 1019 01:16:33,520 --> 01:16:36,400 Even if they have to double pull down that low angle slope 1020 01:16:36,400 --> 01:16:42,960 But you know and I've had colleagues in europe three who have that 1021 01:16:43,840 --> 01:16:49,040 You know, they lost a client at considerable or high danger and the judge threw the book at him and said hey the law is the law 1022 01:16:50,000 --> 01:16:55,040 And you were an avalanche train at considerable danger and if you got it wrong, you're gonna pay the consequences 1023 01:16:56,400 --> 01:17:02,400 And it's an interesting way of thinking at it and I think what we're seeing now in the rash of close calls 1024 01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:07,360 It's interesting like looking at the the c.i.c. Of the utah avalanche centers, you know 1025 01:17:07,360 --> 01:17:12,640 Like here's our summary for the last month and it's like a hundred skier triggered avalanches 1026 01:17:13,120 --> 01:17:17,600 And no fatalities until just recently and you're like, oh my gosh 1027 01:17:17,840 --> 01:17:24,400 We're we're really getting lucky because it's been a very unstable year an inordinate number of high danger days and considerable days 1028 01:17:25,040 --> 01:17:31,280 Speaks to the instability we've had in snowpack yet very few fatalities. We're way behind the seasonal average for deaths 1029 01:17:31,280 --> 01:17:40,480 And I would say we're forgetting pretty lucky in that regard because lots of people aren't getting the message like in Italy or 1030 01:17:41,040 --> 01:17:45,680 If I had an accident Germany or swiss on austria, they'd run it through an algorithmic approach 1031 01:17:46,080 --> 01:17:49,840 that they're trained in and said hey you were jeff you were in the red and 1032 01:17:50,560 --> 01:17:55,920 You're gonna suffer the consequences. I'm sorry and um, it's a very different way of thinking, but I think 1033 01:17:55,920 --> 01:18:00,800 You know you my catch up and I were all on the same page. Hey, it's considerable 1034 01:18:01,200 --> 01:18:04,800 It's been it considerable for days except when it was at high 1035 01:18:05,440 --> 01:18:09,440 We are staying out avalanche train and keeping it super chill 1036 01:18:09,760 --> 01:18:13,920 And it was such a relief because I felt a little stress as the local hosting you 1037 01:18:14,480 --> 01:18:21,600 To provide the goods because you've been working and driving and doing clinics and you're like, hey, we need to play and i'm like 1038 01:18:21,680 --> 01:18:23,200 I do too 1039 01:18:23,200 --> 01:18:26,800 And and then I was so relieved that we were all on the same page and we're just like yeah 1040 01:18:26,800 --> 01:18:33,200 We're just gonna keep it chill and we had such fun skiing and I was not stressed once it was such a relaxing day 1041 01:18:33,520 --> 01:18:35,120 It was great day which 1042 01:18:35,120 --> 01:18:39,840 When you're skiing with a group of five that you've never skied before that never happens 1043 01:18:39,920 --> 01:18:42,720 And it was really lovely to do that share that yeah 1044 01:18:43,440 --> 01:18:48,240 And that you can always blame it on me. I have all of the camera gear just be like dave's a rock 1045 01:18:48,240 --> 01:18:53,680 He can't he can't get caught dude 1046 01:18:53,680 --> 01:18:58,240 You know that part of that decision making was anywhere it was steep we were 1047 01:18:58,960 --> 01:19:03,120 Skiing on a crust so there was not a persistent weak layer underneath 1048 01:19:03,680 --> 01:19:09,200 And we also skied some steeper terrain in old growth forests and it was heavily anchored 1049 01:19:09,680 --> 01:19:15,920 Uh, lots of tree bombs that hit that I don't want to reveal any secrets here, but it was an amazing stash 1050 01:19:15,920 --> 01:19:17,920 Um 1051 01:19:18,080 --> 01:19:23,600 We were able to ski because of those two factors. Um, where you chose to take us 1052 01:19:25,520 --> 01:19:27,520 Yeah, and I I would 1053 01:19:28,800 --> 01:19:31,440 I would be pedantic on one point 1054 01:19:31,920 --> 01:19:36,240 Um, if we dug around those bases of the the old growth forest 1055 01:19:36,960 --> 01:19:40,480 I don't think we're I think we're gonna find sugar around the trees 1056 01:19:40,480 --> 01:19:45,440 But I don't think it's so much acting as rebar and concrete to anchor the slope 1057 01:19:46,000 --> 01:19:50,000 That we might see that in a maritime snowpack where it's all pencil or knife hard 1058 01:19:50,320 --> 01:19:53,280 But I think what it does is it's so disruptive 1059 01:19:54,000 --> 01:19:56,640 It's such a thick force that only experts can ski through 1060 01:19:57,280 --> 01:20:04,240 And all those massive tree bombs I'm psyched we didn't get hit by any because some of those craters were like something you see on the moon, right? 1061 01:20:04,480 --> 01:20:06,480 It's like a 50 pound boom 1062 01:20:07,040 --> 01:20:09,040 I'd be like, oh, I gotta go the chiropractor 1063 01:20:09,040 --> 01:20:10,880 Um 1064 01:20:10,880 --> 01:20:14,480 If I survived and it you know, it disrupts the weak layer 1065 01:20:14,480 --> 01:20:20,880 So you just don't have a continuous weak layer and it's a very localized spot because there's certainly areas where you're like 1066 01:20:20,960 --> 01:20:24,880 Oh, hey, let's go ski in the trees and you're like, well, what does that mean? 1067 01:20:25,360 --> 01:20:31,680 Is it an open glade that an intermediate could ski you're like, oh, that's not enough disruption on the weak layer. Yeah. Yeah 1068 01:20:33,280 --> 01:20:34,960 Yeah, it was a great day out 1069 01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:36,960 Really enjoyed getting out with you guys 1070 01:20:36,960 --> 01:20:41,200 Yeah, it's fun to just ski with people in the same mindset so that it's really relaxed 1071 01:20:41,920 --> 01:20:44,320 I I'm over that point. My ski partners are 1072 01:20:45,920 --> 01:20:48,080 My ski partners are either guides, um 1073 01:20:48,640 --> 01:20:52,560 or folks that have been around the block a long time and uh 1074 01:20:53,360 --> 01:20:55,360 Have lived to ski another day 1075 01:20:55,760 --> 01:20:59,920 Yeah, my my list is very short. I'm quite particular. Yeah, it's you 1076 01:21:00,560 --> 01:21:02,560 I feel honored 1077 01:21:02,560 --> 01:21:05,680 To be on both of your lists 1078 01:21:06,880 --> 01:21:08,880 Oh, you're fun to ski with 1079 01:21:09,440 --> 01:21:14,000 Uh, well, we should probably wrap this up because we've we've taken up a lot of angel's time 1080 01:21:14,080 --> 01:21:16,080 It's been very nice of you to hang out with us 1081 01:21:16,640 --> 01:21:18,640 but angel I wanted to ask kind of a 1082 01:21:20,080 --> 01:21:21,680 Just like a final question to you 1083 01:21:21,680 --> 01:21:25,760 Which would be like is there something that you see like clients or normies like me 1084 01:21:26,160 --> 01:21:32,400 Just like people consistently doing in the back country that you're just like face-palming and you're just like how is this not getting 1085 01:21:32,400 --> 01:21:34,400 across like how are people 1086 01:21:36,480 --> 01:21:38,880 Like if there isn't that's great, but 1087 01:21:39,840 --> 01:21:44,960 Um, you know, it's really I think not that much really which is impressive 1088 01:21:45,040 --> 01:21:48,720 but the one thing that I do see people struggle with is layers 1089 01:21:49,600 --> 01:21:50,720 and 1090 01:21:50,720 --> 01:21:56,480 Being comfortable and not sweating on the up and then being cold on the down without having to change 1091 01:21:57,680 --> 01:21:59,680 Take off your top layer and all that 1092 01:21:59,680 --> 01:22:02,400 Um, and I guess, you know that 1093 01:22:02,960 --> 01:22:06,720 Often is influenced by your pace. So if you're you're sweating a lot one 1094 01:22:06,720 --> 01:22:11,520 You probably have too many clothes on and and two you're probably going way too fast for your 1095 01:22:12,800 --> 01:22:14,800 Body and your comfort level 1096 01:22:15,120 --> 01:22:21,360 But I seem to be able to just like trudge along most of the day on a tour wearing 1097 01:22:21,760 --> 01:22:24,400 Pretty light underneath and then my my shell 1098 01:22:24,400 --> 01:22:29,120 And I have nice pit zips and I can open the front and 1099 01:22:30,320 --> 01:22:34,880 I seem to be able to do that and then I'll put on a down jacket over top of that shell when I stop 1100 01:22:34,960 --> 01:22:36,960 Maybe I'll leave it on for the down 1101 01:22:37,360 --> 01:22:40,000 Or maybe just take it off because I'm generating a lot of 1102 01:22:40,560 --> 01:22:45,040 Heat going down as well. So it's it's managing those layers and 1103 01:22:45,520 --> 01:22:50,160 Keeping your core warm enough that your hands aren't and toes aren't getting cold 1104 01:22:50,160 --> 01:22:55,360 Because once you start sweating and you cool down your hands and toes are going to start to suffer 1105 01:22:55,920 --> 01:22:58,880 Um, so yeah, layering's layering's a science 1106 01:22:59,520 --> 01:23:01,520 Layering is 1107 01:23:01,600 --> 01:23:03,600 Yeah, jeff. I want to hear yours 1108 01:23:04,720 --> 01:23:09,920 Perspective it's it's what we've seen in all the close calls and accidents that have happened in our 1109 01:23:10,720 --> 01:23:14,320 Zones and the sand wands and here in crested butte in the west elks is that 1110 01:23:15,120 --> 01:23:17,120 It's considerable danger 1111 01:23:17,360 --> 01:23:19,360 with an old snow problem 1112 01:23:19,360 --> 01:23:22,640 And people are skiing steep terrain 1113 01:23:23,280 --> 01:23:25,840 So that's over 30 degrees black diamond terrain 1114 01:23:26,640 --> 01:23:31,280 And the last part is they're skiing exactly in the blacked out critical danger zones 1115 01:23:33,040 --> 01:23:34,400 And 1116 01:23:34,400 --> 01:23:37,920 You can get away with it for a while, but eventually it will catch up to you 1117 01:23:38,560 --> 01:23:43,680 And that's a very hard lesson that I had to learn because I thought I was outsmarting it 1118 01:23:43,680 --> 01:23:46,720 And I was in the snowpack every day and I had my finger on the pulse 1119 01:23:46,720 --> 01:23:48,720 Until I didn't and I got it wrong 1120 01:23:49,360 --> 01:23:52,240 And I was lucky enough to be okay 1121 01:23:52,720 --> 01:23:59,120 But I've just lost too many friends and colleagues who were super experts and it's not that they weren't really highly trained 1122 01:23:59,120 --> 01:24:01,680 It's just that the world is a really unpredictable place 1123 01:24:02,320 --> 01:24:04,560 And we're going out there so many times 1124 01:24:05,760 --> 01:24:12,320 It's going to catch up with us or one of our friends very quickly and my my my wish for the backcountry community is hey 1125 01:24:12,640 --> 01:24:14,640 Watch out for those 1126 01:24:14,640 --> 01:24:22,720 Ingredients considerable old snow problem going where the blacked out critical danger zones are and going over 30 degrees 1127 01:24:24,240 --> 01:24:29,120 That's that's a recipe for trouble and I wish all my backcountry 1128 01:24:29,920 --> 01:24:35,120 travelers in the community to have a long and adventurous life instead of a short exciting life 1129 01:24:36,320 --> 01:24:38,720 Yeah, totally. That's great. Amen on that one 1130 01:24:39,360 --> 01:24:40,800 Amen on that one 1131 01:24:40,800 --> 01:24:44,720 Well said, uh, and I can ask you guys a question. Can't tell you 1132 01:24:45,840 --> 01:24:48,800 Yeah, this is for both of you. So, um 1133 01:24:49,440 --> 01:24:54,480 You're not spring chickens anymore. You're a little you're a little been around the block both of you 1134 01:24:54,960 --> 01:25:01,280 Um, actually I have two questions, but this one for both of you is like, what would you tell your 20 year old self? 1135 01:25:02,400 --> 01:25:07,680 About risk and decision-making because I know, um, you know, Dave, I don't know you as well 1136 01:25:07,680 --> 01:25:13,440 But Jeff, I know that you in the past have a your risk tolerance tolerance was probably higher than it is now 1137 01:25:14,160 --> 01:25:16,560 And uh, what what have you learned? 1138 01:25:17,360 --> 01:25:22,000 Since you've been 20 that you would have you look back and tell your 20 year old self now 1139 01:25:23,840 --> 01:25:25,840 Dave you want to take it first? Sure 1140 01:25:26,560 --> 01:25:29,440 Well, angel, I I spent my my 20s 1141 01:25:30,080 --> 01:25:32,080 skiing slope style and half pipe 1142 01:25:32,560 --> 01:25:34,400 so like 1143 01:25:34,400 --> 01:25:37,920 It's actually kind of funny. I feel like I have a really 1144 01:25:39,360 --> 01:25:41,360 strange relationship with risk 1145 01:25:42,000 --> 01:25:43,840 um 1146 01:25:43,840 --> 01:25:50,080 There's like a really really narrow part of my life where I am comfortable taking extreme risk, which is 1147 01:25:50,880 --> 01:25:52,640 skiing park 1148 01:25:52,640 --> 01:25:57,280 Like or resort skiing because I'm like I've done more of that than anything else 1149 01:25:58,640 --> 01:26:00,640 period 1150 01:26:00,640 --> 01:26:02,640 but because of that 1151 01:26:02,640 --> 01:26:07,760 And you can talk to my wife about this. She's like always complaining like I drive like a grandma 1152 01:26:08,400 --> 01:26:10,400 I'm like a pretty conservative biker 1153 01:26:11,120 --> 01:26:12,240 like 1154 01:26:12,240 --> 01:26:14,880 And and and then skiing, you know 1155 01:26:15,040 --> 01:26:17,920 I love hanging out with people like you in the backcountry because I 1156 01:26:18,320 --> 01:26:20,880 Learned so much and I and it really teaches me about 1157 01:26:21,680 --> 01:26:22,480 like 1158 01:26:22,480 --> 01:26:27,280 Shows me all the things that I don't know consistently or just am not thinking about even though I've heard it 1159 01:26:27,360 --> 01:26:29,360 I haven't retained it and so I think 1160 01:26:29,360 --> 01:26:33,520 It's funny when you're like, what would I tell my 20 year old self is like about risk? 1161 01:26:34,240 --> 01:26:37,120 Like it's a really hard question because I feel like I've had a 1162 01:26:38,160 --> 01:26:44,080 Like fortunately, I've had a pretty good relationship with it. I would say outside of the like park skiing 1163 01:26:44,480 --> 01:26:46,800 I've just I think I've done enough maybe stuff 1164 01:26:47,280 --> 01:26:49,280 That I knew I wasn't good at 1165 01:26:49,680 --> 01:26:54,400 That and then it like spanked me and I was like, oh, yeah, duh. I don't know what I'm doing like 1166 01:26:54,400 --> 01:27:00,000 But I would say like keep learning. I would tell myself to like keep stay curious and keep learning and and like try to absorb 1167 01:27:01,280 --> 01:27:06,400 As as much knowledge from those around you as possible, which I feel like we're kind of doing here 1168 01:27:06,960 --> 01:27:10,560 Yeah, which is awesome. Yeah, that's great. What do you think Jeff? 1169 01:27:11,600 --> 01:27:13,600 For me, it's the Dunning Kruger effect 1170 01:27:14,240 --> 01:27:15,360 where 1171 01:27:15,360 --> 01:27:21,120 John Cleese put it really well. He's like stupid people have no idea how stupid they're being when they're doing stupid things 1172 01:27:21,120 --> 01:27:26,240 And we just don't know what we don't know. And so if we're a novice at something 1173 01:27:26,880 --> 01:27:30,080 We think we got it and I was just surfing this week 1174 01:27:30,640 --> 01:27:32,640 And I thought I had it 1175 01:27:32,640 --> 01:27:38,640 Paddled in caught the wave it was overhead and I was like, oh my god. I'm really doing this get to shore. I'm celebrating with my mate 1176 01:27:39,040 --> 01:27:44,800 He loses control of his board. I'm looking the other way the board wax me in the head concussion 1177 01:27:45,120 --> 01:27:47,120 I'm fucking down 1178 01:27:47,120 --> 01:27:53,200 And that was the perfect metaphor where you know, I had this little taste of what I perceived as mastery 1179 01:27:53,200 --> 01:27:56,400 Which is ludicrous, right? Because I don't know how to surf but 1180 01:27:57,360 --> 01:27:59,360 I got lucky, you know 1181 01:27:59,360 --> 01:28:08,800 Blind squirrel finds the nut kind of deal and and I was like, whoo, I figured it out and the universe just smacked me aside the head and like, listen, this is infinitely complex 1182 01:28:10,000 --> 01:28:14,800 and the experts the absolute experts don't have to be the experts 1183 01:28:14,800 --> 01:28:17,760 The absolute experts don't have it figured out 1184 01:28:18,400 --> 01:28:22,960 And that's the same way in the avalanche game and I thought I had it figured out 1185 01:28:23,680 --> 01:28:29,600 And I was just on the cusp of basic proficiency. No, in fact, not even 1186 01:28:31,360 --> 01:28:39,120 And and so you you're on the peak amount stupid and you get the smackdown and you're in the valley of despair and then hopefully 1187 01:28:39,120 --> 01:28:46,080 The line up on the graph is tracking your proficiency with your perception of where I where I am 1188 01:28:46,880 --> 01:28:49,920 And I wish I had a better gauge 1189 01:28:50,400 --> 01:28:55,440 But actually that's something that aspect of abby gives me is, you know, when we looked at our tour track afterwards 1190 01:28:55,520 --> 01:29:00,000 I'm like, did we stay out of the red or you know, did we take any high-risk moves? 1191 01:29:00,320 --> 01:29:04,800 And it forces me to confront that and I can't just go by it felt good 1192 01:29:04,800 --> 01:29:08,400 Because our skiing felt great. We were having so much fun 1193 01:29:08,800 --> 01:29:12,240 But you know, I have to look at it hard and fast and be like, oh, did we cross into the red? 1194 01:29:12,320 --> 01:29:17,840 Okay, why and what are we going to do next time? So we make sure that we we have a low risk tour over and over 1195 01:29:18,080 --> 01:29:21,520 So I think that was it. It's just like hey that overconfidence 1196 01:29:22,240 --> 01:29:28,320 When you're new at something you just setting yourself up for the big get blindsided by the surfboard in the head 1197 01:29:30,720 --> 01:29:31,920 That's great 1198 01:29:31,920 --> 01:29:37,280 Dude so much so many times that's happened to me and I can't I'm like, why do I never learn like this isn't 1199 01:29:38,240 --> 01:29:41,360 Chris hit you in the head with his board too. Yes 1200 01:29:43,360 --> 01:29:45,360 No, but like 1201 01:29:45,200 --> 01:29:47,200 He's everywhere 1202 01:29:47,440 --> 01:29:52,000 No, I remember like I remember surfing in Costa Rica and being like my first big bail off the board 1203 01:29:52,080 --> 01:29:54,880 Like went in fully open like mouth open 1204 01:29:55,360 --> 01:29:59,680 Like didn't tuck and roll at all like I literally got sand in my mouth and was like 1205 01:29:59,680 --> 01:30:01,680 Like came out like 1206 01:30:02,240 --> 01:30:03,520 You know, I'm like 1207 01:30:03,520 --> 01:30:06,480 It was just like my buddy my buddy is there. He's like dude 1208 01:30:07,200 --> 01:30:11,040 Like number one rule and your bail off the board is like getting a ball like tuck and roll, you know, like 1209 01:30:11,120 --> 01:30:14,320 I'm like, oh, right that because I actually didn't know that 1210 01:30:14,800 --> 01:30:16,800 like 1211 01:30:16,960 --> 01:30:20,720 But but I was just like, oh, you know, like I don't know man 1212 01:30:20,800 --> 01:30:24,240 I agree with you. There's so much stuff out there that you just don't know about that 1213 01:30:25,440 --> 01:30:28,000 You've got to just approach everything very humbly 1214 01:30:28,000 --> 01:30:30,000 Yeah, yeah 1215 01:30:30,240 --> 01:30:33,440 I think that's what's so fun about doing something with the beginner's mind is like 1216 01:30:33,840 --> 01:30:39,840 Oh, I don't have to be the expert and feel that pressure of knowing it all and I can just be open to being like, hey 1217 01:30:40,320 --> 01:30:43,520 Tell me what I'm doing or what I need to change and like give me feedback 1218 01:30:43,680 --> 01:30:46,960 it's it's a really kind of fun place to be and and uh 1219 01:30:47,680 --> 01:30:54,480 Yeah, it's it's funny because like I can only imagine how when I'm looking at people doing what I think is like 1220 01:30:54,480 --> 01:30:57,600 Really far out stuff skiing where I'm like, whoa 1221 01:30:58,720 --> 01:31:04,080 I'm sure people were laughing at me all week at the beach. It's like man that guy 1222 01:31:05,200 --> 01:31:07,200 He survives another week 1223 01:31:09,600 --> 01:31:12,080 How many people did I cut off and not even know? 1224 01:31:16,000 --> 01:31:19,760 That's awesome, that's good. Well, Angela, thank you so much for having us 1225 01:31:19,760 --> 01:31:24,400 I'm gonna have to ask you I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you one more question. I think this is a hard one 1226 01:31:25,760 --> 01:31:27,760 This is back to our 1227 01:31:28,880 --> 01:31:32,240 operational wristband our wrist tolerance and 1228 01:31:32,800 --> 01:31:39,600 Um, something is very interesting more so in the high alpine how high altitude mountaineering world is 1229 01:31:40,160 --> 01:31:43,520 risk tolerance and how that's different for gender 1230 01:31:44,720 --> 01:31:46,320 in the past 1231 01:31:46,320 --> 01:31:53,600 Women who have gone away to climb 8 000 meter peaks or very technical undertaking 1232 01:31:54,160 --> 01:31:56,800 Have often been heavily criticized 1233 01:31:57,360 --> 01:31:59,360 if they have 1234 01:31:59,360 --> 01:32:00,560 for 1235 01:32:00,560 --> 01:32:06,160 Taking that level of risk which the culturally is deemed unacceptable for a woman 1236 01:32:06,640 --> 01:32:12,560 whereas many many more men have um that have kids have taken those risks and 1237 01:32:12,560 --> 01:32:16,000 the public hasn't been very condemning 1238 01:32:20,000 --> 01:32:27,120 And I just um, you know wonder what you're all's perception of that and is if we're going to see a shift and 1239 01:32:27,600 --> 01:32:32,560 You know, it's just also like goes to like the risk that we're going to take as 1240 01:32:33,280 --> 01:32:38,880 Citizens of the u.s. To not vote like I just talked to a friend the other day. It's like, oh, I never vote. Yeah 1241 01:32:38,880 --> 01:32:40,880 I don't do politics. I'm like 1242 01:32:40,880 --> 01:32:46,880 Oh my god, like how many people do I know might not vote that I don't even know they're not going to vote 1243 01:32:46,880 --> 01:32:50,480 I mean, what a risk is that going in and and and it's just 1244 01:32:51,680 --> 01:32:55,200 I don't know what it is complacency or thinking that our 1245 01:32:56,240 --> 01:32:58,240 voice doesn't matter 1246 01:32:59,840 --> 01:33:04,320 It will all work out. We'll deal with it as it comes. This is super interesting 1247 01:33:04,400 --> 01:33:06,560 but back back to the risk tolerance on 1248 01:33:06,560 --> 01:33:11,520 You know high altitude mountaineering and a woman's place is maybe not there 1249 01:33:12,800 --> 01:33:16,080 Culturally or culturally accepted. What are your guys thoughts on that? 1250 01:33:16,960 --> 01:33:18,960 That's really interesting like I 1251 01:33:19,600 --> 01:33:21,600 I've never really 1252 01:33:22,000 --> 01:33:26,720 Like at least for me, that's that thought has literally never crossed my mind of like 1253 01:33:28,640 --> 01:33:31,520 If your dude woman is going and doing something extreme 1254 01:33:33,200 --> 01:33:34,720 like to me 1255 01:33:34,720 --> 01:33:36,240 like if 1256 01:33:36,240 --> 01:33:38,240 Some lady wants to go free solo l cap 1257 01:33:39,280 --> 01:33:44,480 That in that my mind is the same level as nutso is alex hannel doing it like I don't have a 1258 01:33:45,200 --> 01:33:47,200 A base layer of judgment towards 1259 01:33:48,000 --> 01:33:50,080 their decision-making, but that's a really interesting 1260 01:33:52,000 --> 01:33:57,920 Kind of like thought I don't know I didn't think about that before so thanks for bringing that up. Yeah. Yeah, it's something 1261 01:33:58,160 --> 01:34:00,160 It's definitely a real thing 1262 01:34:00,160 --> 01:34:05,360 Um, and you know who who are those that are judging are they climbers? Are they? 1263 01:34:06,480 --> 01:34:09,200 Just people who are reading about it in the media 1264 01:34:11,120 --> 01:34:12,320 I 1265 01:34:12,320 --> 01:34:16,880 Seem to think that it's probably not as much the climbers as it is the general public 1266 01:34:17,680 --> 01:34:19,760 But it's just an interesting since our conversations 1267 01:34:20,640 --> 01:34:24,000 Evolved a lot around risk tolerance. That's something that comes 1268 01:34:24,640 --> 01:34:27,280 Back to me because I live in that high alpine 1269 01:34:27,280 --> 01:34:31,520 How high altitude climbing world and and to have a community there and 1270 01:34:32,400 --> 01:34:34,400 It's challenging for women 1271 01:34:34,640 --> 01:34:37,840 Yeah, and I think it's really hard for me to reflect because if 1272 01:34:38,880 --> 01:34:40,880 the if you wrote a formula 1273 01:34:41,600 --> 01:34:43,600 our variance over time 1274 01:34:43,680 --> 01:34:45,680 equals our bias 1275 01:34:46,320 --> 01:34:50,240 And if I have a bias it's unconscious. I'm not aware of it 1276 01:34:51,360 --> 01:34:53,360 So that is really tricky to start with 1277 01:34:53,360 --> 01:34:59,520 And then how I consume the news and I think of two distinct stories that are similar 1278 01:35:00,240 --> 01:35:01,360 the 1279 01:35:01,360 --> 01:35:03,360 Hilary O'Neill and Alex Lowe 1280 01:35:04,080 --> 01:35:12,000 And how those tragedies were portrayed and there's a strong family component in each of them 1281 01:35:12,640 --> 01:35:16,480 Yeah, and it's hard for me to filter through my bias 1282 01:35:17,040 --> 01:35:19,280 And then the media bias that's informing me 1283 01:35:19,280 --> 01:35:23,600 But I definitely got the sense and it didn't sit with me well 1284 01:35:24,800 --> 01:35:26,800 that 1285 01:35:27,200 --> 01:35:33,840 It seemed like the perception was that the risk Hilary was taking 1286 01:35:34,480 --> 01:35:39,040 It's not socially acceptable, but the risk Alex Lowe was taking were socially acceptable 1287 01:35:39,360 --> 01:35:41,360 That was the feeling I got 1288 01:35:42,080 --> 01:35:44,080 And I don't know is that 1289 01:35:44,240 --> 01:35:47,520 Yeah, yeah, that's the feeling I've had with a number of women that have 1290 01:35:47,520 --> 01:35:49,520 Unfortunately passed in the mountains 1291 01:35:50,560 --> 01:35:52,560 Yeah, and 1292 01:35:52,640 --> 01:35:56,960 You know a mother a mother's relationship to children is is different, but it's still 1293 01:35:57,680 --> 01:36:03,280 It it shouldn't be that different. It shouldn't be that it's culturally unacceptable for 1294 01:36:03,920 --> 01:36:08,960 A woman to do something that is exactly the same as as a man's willing to do as well 1295 01:36:09,760 --> 01:36:11,760 Yeah 1296 01:36:12,800 --> 01:36:14,080 Food for thought 1297 01:36:14,080 --> 01:36:19,120 And how we evolve is a culture moving forward with high levels of risk and uncertainty 1298 01:36:19,600 --> 01:36:24,160 All around us and thank you guys for aspect avi. I mean this is just an amazing 1299 01:36:24,880 --> 01:36:27,840 undertaking and a risk that 1300 01:36:29,120 --> 01:36:37,200 You are embarking on that is just uh, it's high level, you know, it's financial risk social risk 1301 01:36:37,200 --> 01:36:39,200 Uh 1302 01:36:39,600 --> 01:36:46,400 Litigation risk, I mean all this it's like it's it's a bold undertaking and I applaud you both for 1303 01:36:46,880 --> 01:36:50,880 Especially you Jeff with your investment and your visionary 1304 01:36:51,520 --> 01:36:55,680 Uh, just thought process and moving this forward because it's 1305 01:36:58,960 --> 01:37:04,320 You need a lot of resources to pull this off and somehow you've managed to put together an amazing team 1306 01:37:04,320 --> 01:37:11,600 Thanks Angela and I definitely you know, there's no way we could do it without the backing of the community and the backcountry community 1307 01:37:11,600 --> 01:37:16,720 He's been incredibly supportive of it and people like you as well and lending your voice to it and uh, 1308 01:37:17,280 --> 01:37:18,560 but then 1309 01:37:18,560 --> 01:37:24,800 You know everyone who's been involved and contributed in the project giving us feedback investing and helping us with our team like Dave 1310 01:37:24,800 --> 01:37:31,040 who handles our product our content production and videography and podcasting so it's 1311 01:37:31,040 --> 01:37:38,320 It's definitely a team effort, but uh, thanks appreciate it. Yeah, I look forward to to watching it evolve and grow 1312 01:37:39,040 --> 01:37:46,320 Yeah, and I'm absolutely mortified that you couldn't get your that we couldn't get the pro code for you to work because you are one of the earliest testers 1313 01:37:46,720 --> 01:37:51,360 And it glitched the system. So you actually bought it out of your own pocket 1314 01:37:52,000 --> 01:37:57,280 Yesterday morning, I purchased it before I went up at three. I gotta say is the ultimate testimonial when the 1315 01:37:57,280 --> 01:38:03,520 President Emeritus the guide association buys the app out of her own pocket who gets everything for free 1316 01:38:03,680 --> 01:38:06,480 So I dinner's on me dinner's on me 1317 01:38:07,280 --> 01:38:09,760 No, I was happy to happy to contribute 1318 01:38:11,680 --> 01:38:15,200 And I used it and it was great it kept me out of the red 1319 01:38:16,080 --> 01:38:18,080 Thank you 1320 01:38:18,080 --> 01:38:22,800 You guys are great. Thanks. All right guys. It was awesome having with you. See ya 1321 01:38:22,800 --> 01:38:26,560 Thank you so much for listening to all aspects if you like what we're doing here 1322 01:38:26,560 --> 01:38:29,840 Please leave a rating interview. It really is the best way to help others find the show 1323 01:38:30,000 --> 01:38:36,720 Thanks again to our business daddy aspect abbey for making this show possible to learn more about how aspect abbey is making avalanche safety simple 1324 01:38:36,960 --> 01:38:38,960 Go to aspect abbey.com 1325 01:38:38,960 --> 01:38:45,840 If you want to use this powerful new tool on your next backcountry adventure simply download the app from the app store and enjoy 30 days free on them 1326 01:38:46,320 --> 01:38:49,680 Lastly special thanks to ice lab for helping us produce this show 1327 01:38:49,680 --> 01:38:54,400 You guys rock and we couldn't do without you. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you in the backcountry