You weren't doing business if you weren't wearing a suit, really, until the snowboarders came in with
baggy pants and hookers in the boots and changed the whole vibe of the show and
after that, nobody wore suits anymore. So...
Welcome to All Aspects, a podcast where we explore, discuss, and celebrate adventure culture and
outdoor lifestyle. It is our mission to educate, inform, and entertain our fellow adventurers
about the inherent risks that surround us every time we go outside to play and to provide you
with the knowledge and tools to help you do the things you love the most and the safest way possible.
All Aspects is brought to you by AspectAvy. AspectAvy is on a mission to save lives by making
avalanche safety simple. It is the only app that tells you where the high and low risk zones are
for today's avalanche danger. With a suite of built-in tools like forecast verification, slope
meter, and gear checklist, AspectAvy is the new safety standard for avalanche risk management.
Remember, there are dozens of apps that get you into the backcountry, but there's only one that's
designed to bring you home. And that's AspectAvy. Go to aspectavy.com to learn more or download the
app to start your 30-day free trial. Thank you, AspectAvy, for making this show possible and
thank you for listening. All right, let's get to the show. All right, I'm sitting down here with
Mike Hatcher. He's a former ski movie legend and star and AMGA certified ski guide, creator of the
K2 Telmark line, and current snow brand director at Black Diamond. Mike, welcome. Thank you. And
we've also got a guest who's off camera here, his partner in crime, Angela Haas, madam president
from the AMGA, who's just wrapped up her term. She'll be on next week's podcast. That's right.
But it'll be funny because we've got a heckler in the audience here. She's gonna say she's just
gonna heckler tonight. Five-star heckler. So, Mike, you've had a life filled with adventure for decades.
What does the term adventure mean to you? How do you think about adventure?
We always say it's not an adventure until something goes wrong. Oh, tell me more about that. I think
to me adventure is it's got an element of unknown. You don't know what you're gonna find.
Kind of like this podcast. Like, what am I getting? Exactly. I've had a couple of glasses of wine and
dinner. I got lulled into a sense of complacency and then banks sprung this on me. Okay. Precisely. Yeah.
So, yeah, to me, I think that's the key to it for me is that there's an element of the
unknown. You don't know what you're gonna find. That's where it gets interesting, right? Yeah,
that's what makes it interesting and captivating is what you're gonna find and how you deal with it.
Is it implicit that there's an element of risk involved with adventure? Well, I think the fact
that there's unknown itself means there's an element of risk because you don't know.
But, yeah, to me, there's always an element of risk. Okay.
And how is your thinking of risk evolved over the years? Because, I mean, how many decades are we
talking about high risk activities in the mountains? Well, I'm more risk averse now than I was. Okay.
Why is that? And I'm more aware of risk than I was. Yeah, I can relate to that. Blissfully
unaware for a long time. Completely oblivious at times. Yeah. Probably one of the best examples of
that was surfing in Hawaii. And I'm not a surfer. Okay. And so I'm out there. Don't know what we
don't know. Yeah, I'm out there and it's the beginner beach on the North Shore. It's
Haleva. And I was just surfing. Normally, there's a little break and I was surfing that and then
one day it was bigger and further out, all the real surfers were and I'm in the beach break. And
I got tumbled, you know, and board got ripped, the leash got ripped off my leg and the board went
all the way in to shore. So I go, okay, so I'm swimming in. And there's a big rock jetty that
protects a little marina behind there. And I finally get to shore and I'm not exhausted, but I've
already pretty tired. Yeah, I'm not a swimmer either, right? So and my board's nowhere to be found.
And I see my board, it's going along the rock jetty. That's expensive. I better get it. So I
scramble up in the rock jetty, wait for the set to come through scramble up on the rock jetty,
and I'm cruising down the the the jetty and me my board is going further and then also further
out to sea. And finally I get caught up to it and I'm like, it's always out there now and I'm
thinking, how much is my deposit on this thing? I go and I think I can get it. So I dive in, I swim
out to get the board, I paddle in and I'm cooked by the time I get in there and right when I get in,
the lifeguards are getting there. It's early in the morning, putting signs in the stand,
caution, dangerous, riptide. So I'm and so this gave me a lot of empathy too because
the people that you see leave in the resort, duck in the ropes, skiing in high hazard and have
no clue. So I'm a little more empathetic with them instead of going, you idiots, because that was
me. And sometimes it takes being out of your element, your area of expertise to have some
empathy. Your area of expertise deals with frozen water. Yeah, not liquid. So what advice would
you give your younger self about adventure and risk? Oh boy. Take your time. My younger self. I
don't know, I think it's take some time to learn more about it, about where you are and what you're
doing. I mean, because that was me and Hawaii just going out. Let's go surfing. How hard could it be?
Yeah, and wow, because it doesn't look dangerous. You can't see a riptide. Just like a foot of fresh
powder doesn't look dangerous at all. Unlike you spent a lot of time in Shumini. In Shumini,
you got big tumbling glaciers and Siraks and curbasses. Long list of things that could smoke you.
Oh, look scary. It's intimidating. Whereas a field of 20 inches of new powder on a 30 degree
spot doesn't look dangerous at all. It looks inviting. So I think that's, you know, and I guess
when you talk about your younger me, I've got kids and that's what I give them is don't assume,
you know, or it's safe. Did you have mentors along the way who could kind of rain you back in and
say, Hey, I think that was over the line today. Because it sounds like when we're when you're
surfing, and I've been in that same exact experience, like, Oh, I learned how to surf. How hard could
it be? And they'd be like, Oh, my God, I almost drowned out there. Yeah. Did you have mentors
along the way that they gave you guidance? Yeah, but not till not till later. I mean, when I when
we shop Blizzard of Oz and Shumini, I was completely clueless. I had never been outside the resort
boundary at all. I was I was a resort mogul skier. So when I got to Shumini, I mean, I saw all this
raw, you know, fierceness out there. And, and I was drawn to the terrain, but knew I had no business
being out there. And there wasn't really until later, I really had two mentors in the mountain.
And one was John Faulkner, who's who's an IFMGA guide, Australian living in Verbi a. And he introduced
me to rock climbing and my first Alpine climb and my first ski mountaineering trip. And then
after that, it was a Swiss guide that I worked for Martin Fulken, the guy at service in Seattle area.
And he really so those two were were my main mentors. For sure. We talked about this before.
But when I was a kid growing up in Vermont, you know, as an annual writer passage to go to Burlington,
the big city to the Flynn Theater, this big old opera house and watch a ski movie. And when I saw
Blizzard of Oz, I was like, I don't know how I'm going to do that. But that's what I'm going to do
with my life. And what did I say to you? He said, Jeff, don't blame me for your bad life decisions.
So 15 years of limited choppity and guiding. I was like, Oh, yeah, there was it was an incredible
amount of adventure and so fulfilling, but also incredibly risky. And a lot of close calls. And
some of those were just the nature being in the mountains. You're like, that's just an objective
hazard that rockfall or, you know, what have you. That's just part of the game. And then other times
were mistakes that I made that I didn't realize because when I was young, and I had just gotten
my my guides badge, and I thought I knew it all. And one of my mentors going to the AMGA said, Hey,
this isn't the finish line when you get your guides badge, it's just the start of the learning.
And I was like, what are you talking about? And only in hindsight, when I'd have close
scrapes, did I was like, Oh, these are the outlier conditions that I hadn't been exposed to before.
But now that I'm doing 300 days a year for fun and for work, I'm seeing all the weird shit that
can go wrong. And whoa, that was really close and a really hard lesson. It was kind of wild
to like interview here and kind of bring it full circle. It's kind of nuts.
Well, and that was me too. And it was Charmony that that that brought me down this path of
becoming a guy and being more educated because I was again, I was drawn to the
terrain and I had you know, I had no business being there. So that's when I started down the
the guide path education. When I started, there was no there was no ski guide program in the US.
When did you start the program? I guided for RMI and Rainier. Oh, yeah. Because that was that was
a great education and awesome terrain. Yeah, I mean, amazing. You don't find that train anywhere
else in the lower 48. Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's 20, there are 26 glaciers on Rainier. So you'll
learn a lot. But I also got tired of walking down a perfectly good ski hill. And I get to walk down
that mountain. I always see it. It's great. It is a great ski hill. So yeah, it was it was and I
was guiding there in 95 and 96. And the guide, the ski guide program didn't start. I got certified in
99. So you must have been one of the first ski guys. I think I was number seven. It was the second
year. Oh my gosh. Yeah, so it was early on and that that was you know, Bale of Adas and yeah,
and Jean-Pavillard. Yeah, who was right here in Christy Biel. Yeah, yeah. Now he's back in
Switzerland. So I actually took my exam in Switzerland in the Burner Oberland. Oh,
wow. Yeah, it was cool. Big glaciers. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, wow. That's pretty wild. And so when
you were saying you were inspired by the the terrain and I think maybe the beauty of the
mountains in Chalmony, was that kind of like the motivation to be like, Hey, I want to learn how to
manage this terrain and manage my team through the terrain. And that led you down the guide's path.
Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't think I was I didn't initially plan on being a guide. I just wanted
to get more educated. So I went and took a Kravazque rescue course from the mountaineers in Seattle,
and I took a rock course and the first aid course and and those just kept building and then when the
you know, then I went and climbed Rainier with some friends and a former guide at RMI.
And that again, piqued my interest further. And so just kept building until there it was. And I've
always, unlike you, I've always been a part time guide. Okay. You know, I've always that's and I
always joked. What was your other because when I was working on at RMI was I always joked that the
only reason I can afford to be a guide is because I have another job. Because it's a story your
guiding habit. They didn't pay real well back. I think it's changed now. But yeah. No, I've always
worked in the ski industry. I you know, when I came back from Chalmone from shooting Blizzard,
I I finally graduated from school. Unlike your brother, I beat your brother, but it was still
seven years. I was on the eight year plan. They were called me doctor by the time I got out of
there or grandpa. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think you know, you don't want to let
what is it don't let life get out of the way of having a good education. Well, I always say yeah,
I said the same thing throughout. Yeah, don't don't let school get in the way of your education.
Exactly. And what was it about working in the ski industry? Because you've worn many, many hats.
Like, can you give us just a brief overview of some of the projects you've been involved with?
And what? Yeah, I mean, I started out what was the what drew you to that? Well, I mean,
yeah, I mean, that was the one thing I knew I wanted to do coming out of college is I knew
I wanted to ski. Yeah. I couldn't find anybody to pay me to drink beer. So skiing was the only
other alternative. So I got a job at K two right after right after I got back from shooting Blizzard
that that summer I was a graph and this was when it was still on Batchelon Island. And so I was
there for for three years and then I ended up going to go into Fisher or excuse me to Kessley
Nordica. And then came back to K two and was there for a long time. And there I started. So I came
back at just as an athlete, I started as a product manager, I came back as an athlete, which was
actually a good deal because I made I made three quarters of my previous income when I was there
every day and I only owed him 30 days of work. So and then I had a goggle deal with Oakley and
worked, you know, boot deal with Technica. And so I eventually made the same amount of money, but
didn't really have to work. So what was the culture like the corporate culture like? Well, it was
different back then. K two even K two, which is pretty lax. It was like khakis and button downs,
except for Friday was casual Friday, you could wear denim on Friday. And now of course you
can walk around in shorts and flip flops there. And the ski show is the same way. The ski show,
it's the only time most of us wore a suit, but you wore a suit from, you know, for five days in a
row. And the last day, you didn't have to wear a tie. But it was old school. And if you weren't
doing business, if you weren't wearing a suit, really, until the snowboarders came in with
baggy pants and hookers in the boots and change the whole vibe of the show. And after that,
that nobody wore suits anymore. So
all right. Yeah. And what and you were heavily involved with with K two is the tell mark program.
And can you talk a little bit about that? And what was the appeal of tell mark for you?
Well, so when we when we shot Blizzard of Oz, we met John Faulkner and and and Mark Shapiro and
Ace Cavalli, who are all living in Verbi a and they introduced me to tell marking, they were
going to do the out route. Okay. And they said, Hey, we're going to do the other and I said,
I want to go. Which just interject you start in Chaminet, and you ski through Verbi a over
the Swiss border, and then you continue on to Zermatt and it links up the two iconic mountains
Mont Blanc and the Matterhorn. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. The most icon. I mean, if you're going to,
if you know one ski tour as a, that's the one that's that's the iconic one for sure. So
anyways, I said, I want to go and they said, Well, we're doing it on telly. So
okay, you better go practice. So I went and groveled around the snow for a couple of days and
stuff the tips, whatever they had to buy. And it never stabilized. So we didn't end up going. But
that that got me interested in it. Okay. And it wasn't it wasn't for a couple of years later that
K2 bought Motsus, which is a Norwegian Nordic brand. I used to race on them when I was
a skier. So great skis. Yeah. And of course, the Norwegians. So we so we put Alpine molds
in at Motsus. So we could build skis for for Europe and and avoid some of the shipping. So
and of course, the Norwegians start building telemarked skis in those. Yeah. And they put them
in the it's a religion. Yeah, they put them in the magazine, the big Norwegian magazine test and
won the test. So they faxed K2. Tell Lauren Goat was instead of an email. Yeah. Yeah. Said, Hey,
we're building the best teleskis in the world. You guys should sell them. And everybody was
sitting around K2. And I was in Sun Valley at this point. I didn't I didn't I wasn't on the island
anymore. And so they're sitting around going and nobody cared about telly. Yeah, K2 at all.
Yeah. Why would you? Yeah. Yeah. And so somebody goes, Hey, Patrick telly's doesn't he? Let's give
it to him. Not like an award is like, let's call it off and give it to Hattra. So so I said, Yeah,
that sounds like fun. And so that's how it started. And the Norwegians were were clever that the
first skis were the, you know, they had the piece, which was a super narrow, like 63 underfoot. Yeah.
Basically a rando race ski. No, those are 65. So and then they had the the pieced off,
which was a 65 underfoot real fatty. Yeah, which was normal alpine went at the time. Yeah. And
and so that's what started it. And then and then came the the piece stinks. And then and then the
cool thing about it was we didn't it was tiny, right? So you could take chances. It did nobody
care. So then we did the totally pieced. And it was the graphic I chose was it was a graphic that
was discarded from the alpine line that was kind of too radical. It was muscle car flames. Yeah,
I remember that distinctly. That's cool. We're going to do that. So we kind of, you know, I didn't,
I wasn't a traditional tell marker. My first boots were leather. But as soon as plastic came out,
I was an alpine skier, I'm going, plastic's better. So I jumped on that. And and from that point on,
we're not making boots, we're not making skis for leather boots, we're making
skis for plastic boots. And so our skis got wider. We did the the after the piece stinks,
and then the totally and then the world pieced and and the skis got wider. And
we put big stacks under the bindings, which nobody would do now. Yeah, because that's and if you're
not a telly skier, you don't know what that means. But you would catch the edge of the duck bell,
and you'd go down like a sniper shot your legs out. Exactly. And it was brutal. Well, so that it
helped with that. But also the other thing you were lacking was leverage. And that stack gave
you leverage. And so we had the first shape skis, the first wide skis, the first rocker,
telly skis, where did the influences from that come from? Well, it came from it came from the
Alpine world, because I was involved still in the Alpine side of it. And and so I knew that
shape skis work better than straight skis. And while all the old telly guys were stuck in the
straight mode, I'm going, This is better, we're doing shape skis. So the rocker tip totally makes
sense because with telebind, yeah, but that came quite a bit later. Yeah, it was it was the shape
skis first. And I knew there was nothing different about the tell mark turn that was going to
negate shape and same with width. You know, so so a lot of this stuff was proved in the Alpine world
and K2 was on the cutting edge of that on the front edge. And so I would just adopt it for
tell mark right after that. So we went from not being existing in the marketplace to number one
in three years with a dominant market share, we were like 40 50% market share and our closest
competitor was 20. So it was it was it was a fun right? What was your reaction to that?
Reaction? I mean, it was it was a super fun time because we were, I mean, was it was that what
I mean, was that what you're expecting to be that successful? No, no, but, but, but not long after,
I realized that these guys are all in yesterday's world. Okay. And and and it just happened that
there were all these technological advances happening in the Alpine world that I knew we're
going to work with for telling. Right. So I, you know, so we just I didn't, unlike now when we test
skis, we benchmark all the competitors at that point, I didn't test anybody else's skis because I
knew they were yesterday's papers. Yep. Yep. And then how did that experience
inform what you're doing now at BD? Tell us a little bit about what you're doing at BD.
And how did your previous life experience in the ski industry inform how you approach it right now?
Well, so the thing that really shifted my, my, my, my view in product development then was
I had, I had started going through the guide courses. Okay. So I had become, I was a, I was an
AMGA ski guide. Shortly after, yeah, it was a few years after I started the telly thing. So I had a
lot of knowledge that, that the average backcountry skier didn't have. Right. And so we put a lot of
those things into place, like we put holes in the tips and tails of the ski so rescue sled. So you
could build a rescue sled. And we had a really cool, I had a great, a great designer at K2,
a guy named Jason Neubauer, who was really clever. And so I'd given the ideas and he'd figure out
how to do it. So we had, and, and, and Martin's doing that too. I've got these great ideas.
I'm not sure how to make it happen. You guys figured out you're smarter than me. And that's,
and that's what my world is at Black Diamond too. I'm, I'm, you know, I, Black Diamond is super
engineering, engineering heavy. We've got 60 engineers there. So, so I'm usually the,
It's quite a geek squad. Yeah. And I'm usually the dumbest guy in the room. And so these guys,
it's like, I understand the market really well. Okay. And, and, because I've spent, you know,
over 30 years in the ski industry, and over 20 years now guiding and, you know, part time guide,
not like you, but so that, that blend of experience helps a lot. And I just, I work with, with some
brilliant designers that can, that come up with, you know, figure out how to make all these things
work. So that's what Black Diamond's kind of a, I mean, it's a, it's a special company. And I used
to load them when I was at K2 because we, we come out with something at K2 that was really cool,
that was more progressive than what Black Diamond was doing at the time. But Black Diamond had the
reputation and the name in that back country world. And so I always knew that I always thought,
if I could put that damn BD logo on this, I'd sell 10X of what we do here. So, so now on there,
which is cool. Do you feel like you have a knack for seeing things that other people don't,
like envisioning products that other people can't see? Yes and no. I mean, again,
a lot of the stuff at K2, I wasn't the visionary that came up with shape skis or fat skis or rocker,
you know, but when I see it, I'm usually, actually that's not even true. I was going to say when I
see it, I know it, but a lot of the times I, I didn't, I thought, shape skis, I don't know.
Okay. Okay. And fat skis, you know, I remember being at, I wasn't a big fan of fat skis and,
and, and most good skiers weren't. Everybody would say, every, every, all the good skiers like,
I don't need fat skis. I can, I can see power. I remember getting dinged by my ski examiner on
my ski exam in Valdez and being like, oh, you guys have your fat skis. It's just a crotch. You need
to learn how to ski. Sounds like Freddy. Yes, exactly. He was on like some 70 mil stokelies.
Yeah. Weighted a ton. Well, and that was the mindset. And, and everybody was saying fat skis,
fat tourists, you know, but the, but the one skier who was really progressive, who really had
amazing progressive vision was Makanke. Yeah. And I remember being, being down at powder,
and we were talking about fat skis and, and Casamaro, the editor of the time goes, yeah,
but you don't get face shots. You know, you don't get down in the snow and you get face shots.
And Makanke's response was, if you're getting face shots, you're going too slow. Oh,
I think, which was true because you could go 50 miles an hour and powder on fat skis. And I
don't care who you were as a skier. You weren't doing that on old skinny skis.
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Going back to adventure, you said there was a sense of the unknown. Do you get that also when
you're rolling out like new products where like, we don't really know how this is going to play out.
We think we have an insight into what's lacking in the market and what we think the customer needs
and we've designed it and created it. But is it a little bit stressful when you launch something?
Yeah, it is because you never know for sure and it might be better, but they just might not see it.
Yeah, the perception might catch up to you. Yeah, sometimes it took a while for all those things to
catch on. So the product is only part of it. It's the storytelling and the marketing that goes,
you know, that tells that story in sales and all those things have to line up to have a successful
product. So even if the product is spot on, it's not assured success.
All right, that might be a good segue. So you're in town in Crested Butte with your partner in
crime, Madam President, Angela Haas, President Emeritus, the AMGA. And you just ran us through
a great training today. I learned a ton about electromagnetic interference. And could you
give us a little insight about the new BD project that you've got going now and how that fits in,
not just flogging product, but also like, hey, this is a public safety issue that most of us are
only vaguely aware of and that you're trying to solve this problem.
Yeah, well, the fact that that you as a seasoned guide learned a lot today,
tells me that most of even the core community is not aware of the electromagnetic interference
that exists out there and how it affects different beacons and what causes that interference.
And so we, this is really, it's a peeps project and a peeps beacon.
And what's Black Diamond's relationship with peeps? Black Diamond and peeps are both sister
companies. We're both owned by the same parent company. And peeps has come out with really
breakthrough technology for interference because you're familiar with, of course, the 2020-50
rule. You need 20 centimeters from your beacon and your phone or... When I'm sending. Yeah,
when you're sending and 50 when you're searching. And most Americans struggle with what the heck is
50 centimeters. Well, true. So, yeah. What's that, like 20 inches, right? About that? Yeah, so this is,
this is, oh, this is 20 centimeters. Oh, and you can double it. From your, your wrist to your
arm is about 50. Oh, okay. All right. Yeah, so that's the easiest way to think about it. 30 centimeters
is a foot, right? So, I mean, you lived in Chilmone, you know that. Yeah, I have a little more adaptive
switching. Yeah. But so, and we all carry way more pieces of technology that cause interference from,
you know, cell phones to go pros to headlamps to Garmin in reach to, to a metal probe or a metal
shovel or radio, radio, all these things cause a foil covered chocolate bar. Yeah, that was kind
of news to me. I knew chocolate killed in America, but not in this way. Not what I'm back on. So,
so it's eye-opening even for the community, the experienced guides and educators. And, and so
that's why Angela and I are on the road to just open people's eyes to this. And it's, it's, it's not,
it's not a, our new beacon is called pro IPS and it was introduced to in Europe this last year.
And it'll be introduced in the US next fall. And it's designed to help solve this problem.
Yeah, you can put your, you can put your phone right on top of it and it recognizes that
interference and boost the signal back out to where it should be. So that interference is not
an issue anymore with this beacon. And, and with, with so many guides, unaware of the different
things that can cause interference and how much it causes. Like chocolate bars. Like, yeah, my
takeaway early on when we were exploring how the interference can totally mess it up was, oh my god.
I knew it was bad, but I didn't know it was this bad. And like the chocolate bar was incredibly bad.
Yeah. Or like the aluminum shovel blade over it. And, you know, phone seems like low hanging fruit,
but that just is going to keep me up at night. Because it's, as a mountain guide, I'm trying to
control two totally chaotic things. I'm trying to worry about mitigating the avalanche risk,
which to some degree is unknowable. We don't have X-ray vision in the snow. It's always a little
different from each spot. And then I'm trying to control the people in my group and both are
batshit crazy. And now I don't know what people have in their pockets. And when we do our beacon
check, I'm like, Hey, touch your electronics and touch your beacon so I can see the separation.
But then once we start our tour, it's always changing. Yeah. And I don't have control over that.
Right. And this is terrifying. Because what we saw was the range just gets crushed,
whether you're sending and you've got interference, or whether you're searching,
you get interference. And as a mountain guide, I can't control that. Once we leave the trailhead,
I don't know what people are doing with their electronics or their chocolate bar wrapper,
or their big belt buckle or whatever it is. Yeah. And I hate that feeling. Yeah, it's scary. And
that's why I think this beacon is, it's fully featured like a guide beacon, but it's also
the safest beacon. Because if I've got a client that has that, I don't care where their phone is,
I don't care where they put their foil cover chocolate bar or their GoPro, or it doesn't matter.
And that's comforting as a guide to know that that's not going to be an issue. I don't have to,
you know, I know, like you said, when you start the tour, you know where that stuff is. But
and then all bets are all bets. Yeah. As soon as you turn around to start walking and they take
a picture and then it goes right on top of their beacon. You don't know that. You know, even as
professional, I got to say, like, when I was working at our local cat operation or Irwin guides,
you know, we would have so much gear. So you got your radio, you got your phone to document for
photos and notes and navigation navigation, and then you've got your pull wire and all this stuff.
And then your beacon and then maybe a GPS watch and the worst offenders. Yeah, you'd come back in
after your route, vlog your shots and load it up on the computer for documentation. And invariably,
someone come in and say, Oh my God, I had so much going on. I had my beacon down in my thigh pocket
to keep it away from my electronics. But I unzipped the pocket that was supposed to be dedicated only
for the beacon. And these are all senior guides. These are not rookies. And it would happen all
the time because the cognitive load, I'm just got so much on my mind, I absentmindedly unzipped
the wrong pocket, and I left it open. And I was skiing out there naked, basically, with, you know,
a chance my beacon falls out and I've got to keep release, but I do not want to trust that little
plastic clip with my life swept in an avalanche. Right. Yeah. And it really drove it home to me
of like, this is a really difficult problem to solve for the professionals. So how the hell
does a normal person who ski tours once or twice a month going to deal with this? Absolutely. No,
that's why this is this is one of those big breakthroughs in technology that that will change
the game and ultimately make it a lot safer. And my experience with the beacon was I usually use
a mammoth. That's what I've used for a long time. And the things I appreciate about that
seem to be the same with the peeps in that it's an incredibly precise and accurate arrow. So if
the arrow is aiming at the victim, that window is only a few degrees, whereas some brands,
it's really wide. It's like a 30 degree window. Are there any specs on that that they were with?
They were aiming for the engineers? Well, yeah, it went from 15 to 7. So when you get down to that
fine search, and that's when I mean, you're just following the arrow and the flux line to start
with, right? But when you get down inside 10 meters, that's that's when that that arrow is really
critical. And the more accurate that arrow is in the fine search, the less time you spend on the
grid search. Yep. Yeah. And what I find when I'm teaching avalanche courses, or even for clients
or beginners, you know, that that fine search we do the grid takes up far and away the most amount
of time. And we can eliminate that all together, we just like lining it up at 10 meters, and you're
pointing right at the victim. And then when you get down to four, again, it's right at the victim,
and your partner can start probing. And they're going to find it before I finish my lowest reading
doing the doing the fine search for the marketing. And then it seemed like when I got in on the with
the peeps, at the very end, what happens to the arrows? When you're within like, is it two meters?
The arrows go away. And why is that? Why is that important? Well, because at that point, you should
be you should be in the grid search. Yeah. Yeah. Because it drives me nuts when he can still have
an arrow that close, because they're overwhelmed by the infinite number of flux lines. And that
arrow is no longer accurate. And I love that the peeps just prompts you to do, hey, do your
grid instead of giving you an arrow that's not accurate at all. And then you have to block that
out. You just like one more thing that I don't have to think about. So right focus on my job.
And the long range too. Yeah. Yeah, well, the, the, as you know, the antenna flips out. And so by
moving the antenna out away from the rest of the software, that's because the software also
causes interference. Okay. So if you can move that antenna away from the interference, that's
one of the reasons we have longer range. Okay. Because I was like, wow, I've never seen a beacon
where you flip out the antenna. I feel like it's Saturday morning cartoons in Vermont. And my
brother's holding the rabbit ear antennas so we can watch and then it's going to be my turn. Okay,
but that kind of makes sense. You get better reception. Yeah. Okay. And then what's the
what's the availability for this beacon? Right now it's just we've got we've got some out to guides
and professionals like yourself. And it will be available next fall. Okay. Yeah. Or you can go
to Europe and get one. All right. Now we've got a big day of tour and tomorrow. And none of us are
as fit as we used to be. So we're going to get an early start. So we're going to wrap this up. We've
got two more questions. What happened? I asked you. You didn't ask me about the I probe. Oh, yeah.
The I probe is very cool. And the I probe is something that's been around for a kind of overlooked,
completely overlooked, completely overlooked by me. And I'm the ski category manager. So
it's like this ski category director is missing this. Then, you know, yeah, of course, everybody
else kind of ties back into what you said before, like it could be a fantastic world beating idea.
But if the messaging isn't there, it doesn't resonate with people. And I don't get it. So the
the I probe actually has a sensor in the tip of the probe, as you know, and when it gets close to
the beacon, it sounds like the backup camera on your car goes beep, beep, and then beep. So the cool
thing about this is, as you know, having taught lots of avalanche courses, two of the biggest
struggles for people learning this is one, to do an accurate grid search. It's not that easy. It falls
apart. Yeah, falls apart. And second, when they're probing, how do I know when I've got a body?
You know, is that a lock? Or is it a helmet? Is it a log? Or yeah, what the heck is it? Yeah. And so
this takes the both of those eliminates the need for both of those because as you're doing, as you
said, as you get inside five meters, and you're slowing down and you've dialed in that that line,
and you're going straight ahead, somebody can be probing and hearing how close they are. And
before you even finish, get to the lowest point on your beacon, they've already got a strike. Yeah.
And there's no questioning. Is this a, is this a body or not? I can't imagine a worse feeling
of digging down a meter and a half and moving one to two tons and being like, shit, we didn't have
them. Right. That was a log. And that happened. That was mud. It felt squishy, but it's not a person.
Yep. That's terrifying. Yeah. And you don't know what a body, I mean, I don't know what a body feels
like with the probe. I've never probed a body. So yeah. Unless you get their booty.
And then wrap up question. Got any questions for me?
Yeah. Aspect Abbey. I mean, this, this, this is a really cool thing. I think again, when you talk
about safety and trying to what, anyway, you slice it ski touring can be risky, but you can,
you can make it as risky as you want. You can go out in high hazard and, and, and ski dangerous lines,
or you can go out in high hazard and ski mellow lines. Yeah. Right. So how is, tell me about
Aspect Abbey and how that's going to help. Well, I was putting myself in your shoes and Angela's
shoes, because we all know guides, mountain professionals are the highest risk group. And
we've lost so many friends and colleagues. And we don't want to be in that group. And we also know
that about the sketchiest thing you can do is guides out on their day off skiing together.
Because the, the human factor traps are through the roof. Usually someone's a local. So familiarity
trap. And you've got the expert halo of like, Oh, we're all super dialed, super accomplished.
And then there's this weird thing that happens where we always have to be in control and at work.
And when we're not at work, we don't want to be. And it's like, Hey, this is my day off. I am not
going to herd these cats. And they're all fiercely independent. And there's going to be this weird
social pushback. If I'm the negative Ned, he's like, I don't know guys, this feels a little
aggressive. I'm going to get ridiculed by my peers. And it's a weird dynamic. And oftentimes the
sketchiest things that I've ever been involved with the closest calls are on formerly on guides,
courses and exams and guides on their day out. And that's just how it is. And I was thinking
about for you guys, we're just coming off a high danger. And before that, we were pegged at
considerable for like 11 days, there's more persistent week layers than I can count. And
you guys have never skied here. Right. And you're like, What am I walking into? We're going to go
meto skipping. Well, what was your experience like tonight when we we we got out the laptop and we
went to app dot aspect abby.com. And you had the run list for crested view. I mean, it, it takes a
lot of that. That human factor out of the equation. Because we looked at it and and just like, I want
to ski north facing. Yeah, we go, Okay, what are north facing up because it's been worn. And the
cool thing with with the app too is, is you can choose a lot of some of the apps, you know,
Gaia and Cal Topo have slope angle shading. So you can see, you know, it's, it's, it's
green or yellow to orange to red to purple, like 10 different colors. Right. And I'm like a tie dye
t-shirt at a concert. I just want to know right now, if it's, if it's considerable, I want to stay
below 30. Yeah. So I don't care what shade it is above 30. Yeah. I just want to know everything
that's under 30. Yeah. And that's what I thought was really cool about the app is like, everything,
everything that's above 30 is red. And what I felt was really cool was we're on equal footing.
Because even though I'm the local and been here for 20 something years, like we all have the same
information and we can discuss it and it's a level playing field. And there's the gets rid of the
hierarchy, which if you're going to have a well functioning team and a high risk environment,
there can be no hierarchy. Like everyone's opinion and data needs to be incorporated in the team
decision. And it took us like three minutes to be like, that's where we're going. And Angela just
zoomed in. It was like, I want to ski north facing for the best snow quality. And like you said,
like, I mean, you started the extreme skiing movement in America, one could arguably say you
have at least some shared responsibility for that. And you're like, I don't want to ski over 30 degrees
today. I want to be skiing blue run terrain and come home safely. And we're like, yes, we all agree
on that. And let's look for the ones that are in the clear. Yeah. What's that? My goals with every
tourist ski the next day. My motto used to be look good, ski fast, safety last.
But then I got the beat down so many times, like, oh, yeah, let's have a long and adventurous life.
Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Well, thanks so much. Appreciate you coming on. Thanks for having me. It's like
a tour to the tour. Yeah, tomorrow's gonna be great. You're breaking trail. We're delocal. I
think we're bringing in the ringer of Britain and Alex. She's super fit.
All right, thanks. Thank you so much for listening to all aspects. If you like what we're doing here,
please leave a rating interview. It really is the best way to help others find the show.
Thanks again to our business daddy, Aspect Davi for making this show possible. To learn more
about how Aspect Davi is making avalanche safety simple, go to aspectdavi.com. If you want to use
this powerful new tool on your next back country adventure, simply download the app from the app
store and enjoy 30 days free on them. Lastly, special thanks to Ice Lab for helping us produce
this show. You guys rock and we couldn't do without you. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you
in the back country.