1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,360 You weren't doing business if you weren't wearing a suit, really, until the snowboarders came in with 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:12,080 baggy pants and hookers in the boots and changed the whole vibe of the show and 3 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:15,360 after that, nobody wore suits anymore. So... 4 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:21,920 Welcome to All Aspects, a podcast where we explore, discuss, and celebrate adventure culture and 5 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:26,320 outdoor lifestyle. It is our mission to educate, inform, and entertain our fellow adventurers 6 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:30,480 about the inherent risks that surround us every time we go outside to play and to provide you 7 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:34,800 with the knowledge and tools to help you do the things you love the most and the safest way possible. 8 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:39,520 All Aspects is brought to you by AspectAvy. AspectAvy is on a mission to save lives by making 9 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:44,720 avalanche safety simple. It is the only app that tells you where the high and low risk zones are 10 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:50,240 for today's avalanche danger. With a suite of built-in tools like forecast verification, slope 11 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:55,360 meter, and gear checklist, AspectAvy is the new safety standard for avalanche risk management. 12 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:59,600 Remember, there are dozens of apps that get you into the backcountry, but there's only one that's 13 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:05,120 designed to bring you home. And that's AspectAvy. Go to aspectavy.com to learn more or download the 14 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:09,920 app to start your 30-day free trial. Thank you, AspectAvy, for making this show possible and 15 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:15,840 thank you for listening. All right, let's get to the show. All right, I'm sitting down here with 16 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:24,640 Mike Hatcher. He's a former ski movie legend and star and AMGA certified ski guide, creator of the 17 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:32,640 K2 Telmark line, and current snow brand director at Black Diamond. Mike, welcome. Thank you. And 18 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:38,880 we've also got a guest who's off camera here, his partner in crime, Angela Haas, madam president 19 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:44,720 from the AMGA, who's just wrapped up her term. She'll be on next week's podcast. That's right. 20 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,000 But it'll be funny because we've got a heckler in the audience here. She's gonna say she's just 21 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:56,080 gonna heckler tonight. Five-star heckler. So, Mike, you've had a life filled with adventure for decades. 22 00:01:56,080 --> 00:02:00,000 What does the term adventure mean to you? How do you think about adventure? 23 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:08,080 We always say it's not an adventure until something goes wrong. Oh, tell me more about that. I think 24 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:16,240 to me adventure is it's got an element of unknown. You don't know what you're gonna find. 25 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:21,840 Kind of like this podcast. Like, what am I getting? Exactly. I've had a couple of glasses of wine and 26 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:29,520 dinner. I got lulled into a sense of complacency and then banks sprung this on me. Okay. Precisely. Yeah. 27 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:37,840 So, yeah, to me, I think that's the key to it for me is that there's an element of the 28 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,040 unknown. You don't know what you're gonna find. That's where it gets interesting, right? Yeah, 29 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:49,120 that's what makes it interesting and captivating is what you're gonna find and how you deal with it. 30 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:57,200 Is it implicit that there's an element of risk involved with adventure? Well, I think the fact 31 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:01,920 that there's unknown itself means there's an element of risk because you don't know. 32 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:09,200 But, yeah, to me, there's always an element of risk. Okay. 33 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:15,600 And how is your thinking of risk evolved over the years? Because, I mean, how many decades are we 34 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:22,080 talking about high risk activities in the mountains? Well, I'm more risk averse now than I was. Okay. 35 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:29,440 Why is that? And I'm more aware of risk than I was. Yeah, I can relate to that. Blissfully 36 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:38,320 unaware for a long time. Completely oblivious at times. Yeah. Probably one of the best examples of 37 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:49,440 that was surfing in Hawaii. And I'm not a surfer. Okay. And so I'm out there. Don't know what we 38 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:57,120 don't know. Yeah, I'm out there and it's the beginner beach on the North Shore. It's 39 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:03,520 Haleva. And I was just surfing. Normally, there's a little break and I was surfing that and then 40 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:09,600 one day it was bigger and further out, all the real surfers were and I'm in the beach break. And 41 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:17,520 I got tumbled, you know, and board got ripped, the leash got ripped off my leg and the board went 42 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:23,120 all the way in to shore. So I go, okay, so I'm swimming in. And there's a big rock jetty that 43 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:29,680 protects a little marina behind there. And I finally get to shore and I'm not exhausted, but I've 44 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:36,880 already pretty tired. Yeah, I'm not a swimmer either, right? So and my board's nowhere to be found. 45 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:42,640 And I see my board, it's going along the rock jetty. That's expensive. I better get it. So I 46 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:47,040 scramble up in the rock jetty, wait for the set to come through scramble up on the rock jetty, 47 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:54,560 and I'm cruising down the the the jetty and me my board is going further and then also further 48 00:04:54,560 --> 00:05:00,560 out to sea. And finally I get caught up to it and I'm like, it's always out there now and I'm 49 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:08,560 thinking, how much is my deposit on this thing? I go and I think I can get it. So I dive in, I swim 50 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:14,400 out to get the board, I paddle in and I'm cooked by the time I get in there and right when I get in, 51 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:19,120 the lifeguards are getting there. It's early in the morning, putting signs in the stand, 52 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:27,040 caution, dangerous, riptide. So I'm and so this gave me a lot of empathy too because 53 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:34,800 the people that you see leave in the resort, duck in the ropes, skiing in high hazard and have 54 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:42,320 no clue. So I'm a little more empathetic with them instead of going, you idiots, because that was 55 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:49,280 me. And sometimes it takes being out of your element, your area of expertise to have some 56 00:05:49,280 --> 00:05:57,680 empathy. Your area of expertise deals with frozen water. Yeah, not liquid. So what advice would 57 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:14,080 you give your younger self about adventure and risk? Oh boy. Take your time. My younger self. I 58 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:19,600 don't know, I think it's take some time to learn more about it, about where you are and what you're 59 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:27,040 doing. I mean, because that was me and Hawaii just going out. Let's go surfing. How hard could it be? 60 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:35,680 Yeah, and wow, because it doesn't look dangerous. You can't see a riptide. Just like a foot of fresh 61 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:43,760 powder doesn't look dangerous at all. Unlike you spent a lot of time in Shumini. In Shumini, 62 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:50,720 you got big tumbling glaciers and Siraks and curbasses. Long list of things that could smoke you. 63 00:06:50,720 --> 00:07:01,760 Oh, look scary. It's intimidating. Whereas a field of 20 inches of new powder on a 30 degree 64 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:08,640 spot doesn't look dangerous at all. It looks inviting. So I think that's, you know, and I guess 65 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:16,000 when you talk about your younger me, I've got kids and that's what I give them is don't assume, 66 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:25,280 you know, or it's safe. Did you have mentors along the way who could kind of rain you back in and 67 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:30,160 say, Hey, I think that was over the line today. Because it sounds like when we're when you're 68 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:34,640 surfing, and I've been in that same exact experience, like, Oh, I learned how to surf. How hard could 69 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:39,440 it be? And they'd be like, Oh, my God, I almost drowned out there. Yeah. Did you have mentors 70 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:47,600 along the way that they gave you guidance? Yeah, but not till not till later. I mean, when I when 71 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:53,440 we shop Blizzard of Oz and Shumini, I was completely clueless. I had never been outside the resort 72 00:07:53,440 --> 00:08:00,560 boundary at all. I was I was a resort mogul skier. So when I got to Shumini, I mean, I saw all this 73 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:09,040 raw, you know, fierceness out there. And, and I was drawn to the terrain, but knew I had no business 74 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:14,400 being out there. And there wasn't really until later, I really had two mentors in the mountain. 75 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:21,760 And one was John Faulkner, who's who's an IFMGA guide, Australian living in Verbi a. And he introduced 76 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:27,600 me to rock climbing and my first Alpine climb and my first ski mountaineering trip. And then 77 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:34,000 after that, it was a Swiss guide that I worked for Martin Fulken, the guy at service in Seattle area. 78 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:43,680 And he really so those two were were my main mentors. For sure. We talked about this before. 79 00:08:43,680 --> 00:08:50,800 But when I was a kid growing up in Vermont, you know, as an annual writer passage to go to Burlington, 80 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:56,080 the big city to the Flynn Theater, this big old opera house and watch a ski movie. And when I saw 81 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:00,560 Blizzard of Oz, I was like, I don't know how I'm going to do that. But that's what I'm going to do 82 00:09:00,560 --> 00:09:06,800 with my life. And what did I say to you? He said, Jeff, don't blame me for your bad life decisions. 83 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:15,920 So 15 years of limited choppity and guiding. I was like, Oh, yeah, there was it was an incredible 84 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:21,840 amount of adventure and so fulfilling, but also incredibly risky. And a lot of close calls. And 85 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:26,240 some of those were just the nature being in the mountains. You're like, that's just an objective 86 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:32,800 hazard that rockfall or, you know, what have you. That's just part of the game. And then other times 87 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:38,000 were mistakes that I made that I didn't realize because when I was young, and I had just gotten 88 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:45,440 my my guides badge, and I thought I knew it all. And one of my mentors going to the AMGA said, Hey, 89 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:50,000 this isn't the finish line when you get your guides badge, it's just the start of the learning. 90 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:55,760 And I was like, what are you talking about? And only in hindsight, when I'd have close 91 00:09:55,760 --> 00:10:01,600 scrapes, did I was like, Oh, these are the outlier conditions that I hadn't been exposed to before. 92 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:07,360 But now that I'm doing 300 days a year for fun and for work, I'm seeing all the weird shit that 93 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:16,000 can go wrong. And whoa, that was really close and a really hard lesson. It was kind of wild 94 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,440 to like interview here and kind of bring it full circle. It's kind of nuts. 95 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:26,240 Well, and that was me too. And it was Charmony that that that brought me down this path of 96 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:31,040 becoming a guy and being more educated because I was again, I was drawn to the 97 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:36,320 terrain and I had you know, I had no business being there. So that's when I started down the 98 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:42,320 the guide path education. When I started, there was no there was no ski guide program in the US. 99 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:48,640 When did you start the program? I guided for RMI and Rainier. Oh, yeah. Because that was that was 100 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:54,800 a great education and awesome terrain. Yeah, I mean, amazing. You don't find that train anywhere 101 00:10:54,800 --> 00:11:01,760 else in the lower 48. Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's 20, there are 26 glaciers on Rainier. So you'll 102 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:10,720 learn a lot. But I also got tired of walking down a perfectly good ski hill. And I get to walk down 103 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:16,560 that mountain. I always see it. It's great. It is a great ski hill. So yeah, it was it was and I 104 00:11:16,560 --> 00:11:24,240 was guiding there in 95 and 96. And the guide, the ski guide program didn't start. I got certified in 105 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:30,880 99. So you must have been one of the first ski guys. I think I was number seven. It was the second 106 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:36,320 year. Oh my gosh. Yeah, so it was early on and that that was you know, Bale of Adas and yeah, 107 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:40,720 and Jean-Pavillard. Yeah, who was right here in Christy Biel. Yeah, yeah. Now he's back in 108 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:46,400 Switzerland. So I actually took my exam in Switzerland in the Burner Oberland. Oh, 109 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:56,080 wow. Yeah, it was cool. Big glaciers. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, wow. That's pretty wild. And so when 110 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:03,760 you were saying you were inspired by the the terrain and I think maybe the beauty of the 111 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:10,320 mountains in Chalmony, was that kind of like the motivation to be like, Hey, I want to learn how to 112 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:15,920 manage this terrain and manage my team through the terrain. And that led you down the guide's path. 113 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:22,800 Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't think I was I didn't initially plan on being a guide. I just wanted 114 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:28,560 to get more educated. So I went and took a Kravazque rescue course from the mountaineers in Seattle, 115 00:12:28,560 --> 00:12:36,400 and I took a rock course and the first aid course and and those just kept building and then when the 116 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:45,360 you know, then I went and climbed Rainier with some friends and a former guide at RMI. 117 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:52,800 And that again, piqued my interest further. And so just kept building until there it was. And I've 118 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:58,640 always, unlike you, I've always been a part time guide. Okay. You know, I've always that's and I 119 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:03,360 always joked. What was your other because when I was working on at RMI was I always joked that the 120 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:08,880 only reason I can afford to be a guide is because I have another job. Because it's a story your 121 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:15,040 guiding habit. They didn't pay real well back. I think it's changed now. But yeah. No, I've always 122 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:19,600 worked in the ski industry. I you know, when I came back from Chalmone from shooting Blizzard, 123 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:28,800 I I finally graduated from school. Unlike your brother, I beat your brother, but it was still 124 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:34,640 seven years. I was on the eight year plan. They were called me doctor by the time I got out of 125 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:41,680 there or grandpa. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think you know, you don't want to let 126 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:48,080 what is it don't let life get out of the way of having a good education. Well, I always say yeah, 127 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,800 I said the same thing throughout. Yeah, don't don't let school get in the way of your education. 128 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:58,640 Exactly. And what was it about working in the ski industry? Because you've worn many, many hats. 129 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:02,000 Like, can you give us just a brief overview of some of the projects you've been involved with? 130 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:09,360 And what? Yeah, I mean, I started out what was the what drew you to that? Well, I mean, 131 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:16,560 yeah, I mean, that was the one thing I knew I wanted to do coming out of college is I knew 132 00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:23,360 I wanted to ski. Yeah. I couldn't find anybody to pay me to drink beer. So skiing was the only 133 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:31,280 other alternative. So I got a job at K two right after right after I got back from shooting Blizzard 134 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:37,280 that that summer I was a graph and this was when it was still on Batchelon Island. And so I was 135 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:46,080 there for for three years and then I ended up going to go into Fisher or excuse me to Kessley 136 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:56,000 Nordica. And then came back to K two and was there for a long time. And there I started. So I came 137 00:14:56,000 --> 00:15:03,120 back at just as an athlete, I started as a product manager, I came back as an athlete, which was 138 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:10,640 actually a good deal because I made I made three quarters of my previous income when I was there 139 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:20,320 every day and I only owed him 30 days of work. So and then I had a goggle deal with Oakley and 140 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:25,920 worked, you know, boot deal with Technica. And so I eventually made the same amount of money, but 141 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:33,280 didn't really have to work. So what was the culture like the corporate culture like? Well, it was 142 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:42,880 different back then. K two even K two, which is pretty lax. It was like khakis and button downs, 143 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:48,880 except for Friday was casual Friday, you could wear denim on Friday. And now of course you 144 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:54,880 can walk around in shorts and flip flops there. And the ski show is the same way. The ski show, 145 00:15:55,920 --> 00:16:01,280 it's the only time most of us wore a suit, but you wore a suit from, you know, for five days in a 146 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:08,160 row. And the last day, you didn't have to wear a tie. But it was old school. And if you weren't 147 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:13,120 doing business, if you weren't wearing a suit, really, until the snowboarders came in with 148 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:21,280 baggy pants and hookers in the boots and change the whole vibe of the show. And after that, 149 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,200 that nobody wore suits anymore. So 150 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:33,280 all right. Yeah. And what and you were heavily involved with with K two is the tell mark program. 151 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:38,320 And can you talk a little bit about that? And what was the appeal of tell mark for you? 152 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:45,440 Well, so when we when we shot Blizzard of Oz, we met John Faulkner and and and Mark Shapiro and 153 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:50,960 Ace Cavalli, who are all living in Verbi a and they introduced me to tell marking, they were 154 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,720 going to do the out route. Okay. And they said, Hey, we're going to do the other and I said, 155 00:16:54,720 --> 00:17:00,720 I want to go. Which just interject you start in Chaminet, and you ski through Verbi a over 156 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:05,120 the Swiss border, and then you continue on to Zermatt and it links up the two iconic mountains 157 00:17:05,120 --> 00:17:10,560 Mont Blanc and the Matterhorn. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. The most icon. I mean, if you're going to, 158 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:16,320 if you know one ski tour as a, that's the one that's that's the iconic one for sure. So 159 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:21,040 anyways, I said, I want to go and they said, Well, we're doing it on telly. So 160 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:26,560 okay, you better go practice. So I went and groveled around the snow for a couple of days and 161 00:17:27,120 --> 00:17:32,160 stuff the tips, whatever they had to buy. And it never stabilized. So we didn't end up going. But 162 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:40,960 that that got me interested in it. Okay. And it wasn't it wasn't for a couple of years later that 163 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:47,280 K2 bought Motsus, which is a Norwegian Nordic brand. I used to race on them when I was 164 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:55,360 a skier. So great skis. Yeah. And of course, the Norwegians. So we so we put Alpine molds 165 00:17:55,360 --> 00:18:04,080 in at Motsus. So we could build skis for for Europe and and avoid some of the shipping. So 166 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:11,120 and of course, the Norwegians start building telemarked skis in those. Yeah. And they put them 167 00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:18,400 in the it's a religion. Yeah, they put them in the magazine, the big Norwegian magazine test and 168 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:26,720 won the test. So they faxed K2. Tell Lauren Goat was instead of an email. Yeah. Yeah. Said, Hey, 169 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:31,120 we're building the best teleskis in the world. You guys should sell them. And everybody was 170 00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:37,440 sitting around K2. And I was in Sun Valley at this point. I didn't I didn't I wasn't on the island 171 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:44,800 anymore. And so they're sitting around going and nobody cared about telly. Yeah, K2 at all. 172 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:52,000 Yeah. Why would you? Yeah. Yeah. And so somebody goes, Hey, Patrick telly's doesn't he? Let's give 173 00:18:52,000 --> 00:19:00,480 it to him. Not like an award is like, let's call it off and give it to Hattra. So so I said, Yeah, 174 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:05,440 that sounds like fun. And so that's how it started. And the Norwegians were were clever that the 175 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:11,280 first skis were the, you know, they had the piece, which was a super narrow, like 63 underfoot. Yeah. 176 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:20,240 Basically a rando race ski. No, those are 65. So and then they had the the pieced off, 177 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:27,520 which was a 65 underfoot real fatty. Yeah, which was normal alpine went at the time. Yeah. And 178 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:36,000 and so that's what started it. And then and then came the the piece stinks. And then and then the 179 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:41,600 cool thing about it was we didn't it was tiny, right? So you could take chances. It did nobody 180 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:51,440 care. So then we did the totally pieced. And it was the graphic I chose was it was a graphic that 181 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:56,480 was discarded from the alpine line that was kind of too radical. It was muscle car flames. Yeah, 182 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:02,400 I remember that distinctly. That's cool. We're going to do that. So we kind of, you know, I didn't, 183 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:07,680 I wasn't a traditional tell marker. My first boots were leather. But as soon as plastic came out, 184 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:13,840 I was an alpine skier, I'm going, plastic's better. So I jumped on that. And and from that point on, 185 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,880 we're not making boots, we're not making skis for leather boots, we're making 186 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:25,120 skis for plastic boots. And so our skis got wider. We did the the after the piece stinks, 187 00:20:25,120 --> 00:20:29,760 and then the totally and then the world pieced and and the skis got wider. And 188 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:35,520 we put big stacks under the bindings, which nobody would do now. Yeah, because that's and if you're 189 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,760 not a telly skier, you don't know what that means. But you would catch the edge of the duck bell, 190 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:45,760 and you'd go down like a sniper shot your legs out. Exactly. And it was brutal. Well, so that it 191 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,920 helped with that. But also the other thing you were lacking was leverage. And that stack gave 192 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:54,960 you leverage. And so we had the first shape skis, the first wide skis, the first rocker, 193 00:20:54,960 --> 00:21:01,120 telly skis, where did the influences from that come from? Well, it came from it came from the 194 00:21:01,120 --> 00:21:07,360 Alpine world, because I was involved still in the Alpine side of it. And and so I knew that 195 00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:13,760 shape skis work better than straight skis. And while all the old telly guys were stuck in the 196 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:20,160 straight mode, I'm going, This is better, we're doing shape skis. So the rocker tip totally makes 197 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:25,840 sense because with telebind, yeah, but that came quite a bit later. Yeah, it was it was the shape 198 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:31,680 skis first. And I knew there was nothing different about the tell mark turn that was going to 199 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:41,840 negate shape and same with width. You know, so so a lot of this stuff was proved in the Alpine world 200 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:48,400 and K2 was on the cutting edge of that on the front edge. And so I would just adopt it for 201 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:55,280 tell mark right after that. So we went from not being existing in the marketplace to number one 202 00:21:55,280 --> 00:22:01,680 in three years with a dominant market share, we were like 40 50% market share and our closest 203 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:07,360 competitor was 20. So it was it was it was a fun right? What was your reaction to that? 204 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:14,000 Reaction? I mean, it was it was a super fun time because we were, I mean, was it was that what 205 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:22,880 I mean, was that what you're expecting to be that successful? No, no, but, but, but not long after, 206 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:30,480 I realized that these guys are all in yesterday's world. Okay. And and and it just happened that 207 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,960 there were all these technological advances happening in the Alpine world that I knew we're 208 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:41,600 going to work with for telling. Right. So I, you know, so we just I didn't, unlike now when we test 209 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:46,480 skis, we benchmark all the competitors at that point, I didn't test anybody else's skis because I 210 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:56,400 knew they were yesterday's papers. Yep. Yep. And then how did that experience 211 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,720 inform what you're doing now at BD? Tell us a little bit about what you're doing at BD. 212 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:10,400 And how did your previous life experience in the ski industry inform how you approach it right now? 213 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:18,640 Well, so the thing that really shifted my, my, my, my view in product development then was 214 00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:27,120 I had, I had started going through the guide courses. Okay. So I had become, I was a, I was an 215 00:23:27,120 --> 00:23:36,480 AMGA ski guide. Shortly after, yeah, it was a few years after I started the telly thing. So I had a 216 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:43,680 lot of knowledge that, that the average backcountry skier didn't have. Right. And so we put a lot of 217 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:48,880 those things into place, like we put holes in the tips and tails of the ski so rescue sled. So you 218 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:56,400 could build a rescue sled. And we had a really cool, I had a great, a great designer at K2, 219 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:02,640 a guy named Jason Neubauer, who was really clever. And so I'd given the ideas and he'd figure out 220 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:07,440 how to do it. So we had, and, and, and Martin's doing that too. I've got these great ideas. 221 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,600 I'm not sure how to make it happen. You guys figured out you're smarter than me. And that's, 222 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:18,160 and that's what my world is at Black Diamond too. I'm, I'm, you know, I, Black Diamond is super 223 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:25,920 engineering, engineering heavy. We've got 60 engineers there. So, so I'm usually the, 224 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:31,200 It's quite a geek squad. Yeah. And I'm usually the dumbest guy in the room. And so these guys, 225 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:39,280 it's like, I understand the market really well. Okay. And, and, because I've spent, you know, 226 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:47,360 over 30 years in the ski industry, and over 20 years now guiding and, you know, part time guide, 227 00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:55,600 not like you, but so that, that blend of experience helps a lot. And I just, I work with, with some 228 00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:01,920 brilliant designers that can, that come up with, you know, figure out how to make all these things 229 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:11,280 work. So that's what Black Diamond's kind of a, I mean, it's a, it's a special company. And I used 230 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:18,640 to load them when I was at K2 because we, we come out with something at K2 that was really cool, 231 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:24,720 that was more progressive than what Black Diamond was doing at the time. But Black Diamond had the 232 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:31,040 reputation and the name in that back country world. And so I always knew that I always thought, 233 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:40,160 if I could put that damn BD logo on this, I'd sell 10X of what we do here. So, so now on there, 234 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:46,720 which is cool. Do you feel like you have a knack for seeing things that other people don't, 235 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:53,040 like envisioning products that other people can't see? Yes and no. I mean, again, 236 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:59,760 a lot of the stuff at K2, I wasn't the visionary that came up with shape skis or fat skis or rocker, 237 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:05,920 you know, but when I see it, I'm usually, actually that's not even true. I was going to say when I 238 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:11,920 see it, I know it, but a lot of the times I, I didn't, I thought, shape skis, I don't know. 239 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:19,760 Okay. Okay. And fat skis, you know, I remember being at, I wasn't a big fan of fat skis and, 240 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:25,200 and, and most good skiers weren't. Everybody would say, every, every, all the good skiers like, 241 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,000 I don't need fat skis. I can, I can see power. I remember getting dinged by my ski examiner on 242 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:35,440 my ski exam in Valdez and being like, oh, you guys have your fat skis. It's just a crotch. You need 243 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:42,080 to learn how to ski. Sounds like Freddy. Yes, exactly. He was on like some 70 mil stokelies. 244 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:47,920 Yeah. Weighted a ton. Well, and that was the mindset. And, and everybody was saying fat skis, 245 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:54,080 fat tourists, you know, but the, but the one skier who was really progressive, who really had 246 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:59,280 amazing progressive vision was Makanke. Yeah. And I remember being, being down at powder, 247 00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:05,600 and we were talking about fat skis and, and Casamaro, the editor of the time goes, yeah, 248 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:09,120 but you don't get face shots. You know, you don't get down in the snow and you get face shots. 249 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:15,120 And Makanke's response was, if you're getting face shots, you're going too slow. Oh, 250 00:27:15,120 --> 00:27:21,600 I think, which was true because you could go 50 miles an hour and powder on fat skis. And I 251 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,200 don't care who you were as a skier. You weren't doing that on old skinny skis. 252 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:34,080 All aspects is brought to you by Aspect Davi. Aspect Davi is on a mission to save lives by 253 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:39,040 making avalanche safety simple. It is the only app that has built in dynamic slope angle shading to 254 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:44,320 show you exactly which areas are likely to trigger that day, allowing you to spend more time enjoying 255 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:48,480 your backcountry adventure every time you go out with a suite of built in tools like forecast 256 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:53,600 verification, a three axis slope meter tool, tour tracker and more aspect. Davi is a new safety 257 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,680 standard for avalanche risk management. Remember, there are dozens of apps that get you into the 258 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,600 backcountry, but there's only one design to bring you home. And that's aspect. 259 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:06,160 Go to aspect.com to learn more or download the app to start your 30 day free trial. 260 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:15,840 Going back to adventure, you said there was a sense of the unknown. Do you get that also when 261 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:20,800 you're rolling out like new products where like, we don't really know how this is going to play out. 262 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:27,600 We think we have an insight into what's lacking in the market and what we think the customer needs 263 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:32,960 and we've designed it and created it. But is it a little bit stressful when you launch something? 264 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:39,120 Yeah, it is because you never know for sure and it might be better, but they just might not see it. 265 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:43,760 Yeah, the perception might catch up to you. Yeah, sometimes it took a while for all those things to 266 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:52,720 catch on. So the product is only part of it. It's the storytelling and the marketing that goes, 267 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:58,560 you know, that tells that story in sales and all those things have to line up to have a successful 268 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:06,240 product. So even if the product is spot on, it's not assured success. 269 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:11,280 All right, that might be a good segue. So you're in town in Crested Butte with your partner in 270 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:17,840 crime, Madam President, Angela Haas, President Emeritus, the AMGA. And you just ran us through 271 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:24,160 a great training today. I learned a ton about electromagnetic interference. And could you 272 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:29,440 give us a little insight about the new BD project that you've got going now and how that fits in, 273 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:35,600 not just flogging product, but also like, hey, this is a public safety issue that most of us are 274 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,640 only vaguely aware of and that you're trying to solve this problem. 275 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:46,880 Yeah, well, the fact that that you as a seasoned guide learned a lot today, 276 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:55,040 tells me that most of even the core community is not aware of the electromagnetic interference 277 00:29:55,040 --> 00:30:00,480 that exists out there and how it affects different beacons and what causes that interference. 278 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:08,800 And so we, this is really, it's a peeps project and a peeps beacon. 279 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:14,320 And what's Black Diamond's relationship with peeps? Black Diamond and peeps are both sister 280 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:22,000 companies. We're both owned by the same parent company. And peeps has come out with really 281 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:29,680 breakthrough technology for interference because you're familiar with, of course, the 2020-50 282 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:37,200 rule. You need 20 centimeters from your beacon and your phone or... When I'm sending. Yeah, 283 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:43,360 when you're sending and 50 when you're searching. And most Americans struggle with what the heck is 284 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:50,480 50 centimeters. Well, true. So, yeah. What's that, like 20 inches, right? About that? Yeah, so this is, 285 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:56,480 this is, oh, this is 20 centimeters. Oh, and you can double it. From your, your wrist to your 286 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:02,960 arm is about 50. Oh, okay. All right. Yeah, so that's the easiest way to think about it. 30 centimeters 287 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:08,000 is a foot, right? So, I mean, you lived in Chilmone, you know that. Yeah, I have a little more adaptive 288 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:20,400 switching. Yeah. But so, and we all carry way more pieces of technology that cause interference from, 289 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:29,520 you know, cell phones to go pros to headlamps to Garmin in reach to, to a metal probe or a metal 290 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:38,720 shovel or radio, radio, all these things cause a foil covered chocolate bar. Yeah, that was kind 291 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:44,640 of news to me. I knew chocolate killed in America, but not in this way. Not what I'm back on. So, 292 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:51,360 so it's eye-opening even for the community, the experienced guides and educators. And, and so 293 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:59,680 that's why Angela and I are on the road to just open people's eyes to this. And it's, it's, it's not, 294 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:05,520 it's not a, our new beacon is called pro IPS and it was introduced to in Europe this last year. 295 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:16,000 And it'll be introduced in the US next fall. And it's designed to help solve this problem. 296 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,960 Yeah, you can put your, you can put your phone right on top of it and it recognizes that 297 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:27,040 interference and boost the signal back out to where it should be. So that interference is not 298 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:35,840 an issue anymore with this beacon. And, and with, with so many guides, unaware of the different 299 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:42,000 things that can cause interference and how much it causes. Like chocolate bars. Like, yeah, my 300 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:49,600 takeaway early on when we were exploring how the interference can totally mess it up was, oh my god. 301 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:55,600 I knew it was bad, but I didn't know it was this bad. And like the chocolate bar was incredibly bad. 302 00:32:55,600 --> 00:33:03,120 Yeah. Or like the aluminum shovel blade over it. And, you know, phone seems like low hanging fruit, 303 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:10,000 but that just is going to keep me up at night. Because it's, as a mountain guide, I'm trying to 304 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:18,080 control two totally chaotic things. I'm trying to worry about mitigating the avalanche risk, 305 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:22,160 which to some degree is unknowable. We don't have X-ray vision in the snow. It's always a little 306 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:27,600 different from each spot. And then I'm trying to control the people in my group and both are 307 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:34,080 batshit crazy. And now I don't know what people have in their pockets. And when we do our beacon 308 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:38,720 check, I'm like, Hey, touch your electronics and touch your beacon so I can see the separation. 309 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:43,280 But then once we start our tour, it's always changing. Yeah. And I don't have control over that. 310 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:49,200 Right. And this is terrifying. Because what we saw was the range just gets crushed, 311 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,320 whether you're sending and you've got interference, or whether you're searching, 312 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:57,840 you get interference. And as a mountain guide, I can't control that. Once we leave the trailhead, 313 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:02,160 I don't know what people are doing with their electronics or their chocolate bar wrapper, 314 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:09,600 or their big belt buckle or whatever it is. Yeah. And I hate that feeling. Yeah, it's scary. And 315 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:17,440 that's why I think this beacon is, it's fully featured like a guide beacon, but it's also 316 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:23,280 the safest beacon. Because if I've got a client that has that, I don't care where their phone is, 317 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:28,480 I don't care where they put their foil cover chocolate bar or their GoPro, or it doesn't matter. 318 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:35,440 And that's comforting as a guide to know that that's not going to be an issue. I don't have to, 319 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:40,640 you know, I know, like you said, when you start the tour, you know where that stuff is. But 320 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,880 and then all bets are all bets. Yeah. As soon as you turn around to start walking and they take 321 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:49,600 a picture and then it goes right on top of their beacon. You don't know that. You know, even as 322 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:54,320 professional, I got to say, like, when I was working at our local cat operation or Irwin guides, 323 00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:00,800 you know, we would have so much gear. So you got your radio, you got your phone to document for 324 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:08,000 photos and notes and navigation navigation, and then you've got your pull wire and all this stuff. 325 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:16,720 And then your beacon and then maybe a GPS watch and the worst offenders. Yeah, you'd come back in 326 00:35:16,720 --> 00:35:23,120 after your route, vlog your shots and load it up on the computer for documentation. And invariably, 327 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:29,120 someone come in and say, Oh my God, I had so much going on. I had my beacon down in my thigh pocket 328 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:35,520 to keep it away from my electronics. But I unzipped the pocket that was supposed to be dedicated only 329 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:41,520 for the beacon. And these are all senior guides. These are not rookies. And it would happen all 330 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:47,040 the time because the cognitive load, I'm just got so much on my mind, I absentmindedly unzipped 331 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:52,080 the wrong pocket, and I left it open. And I was skiing out there naked, basically, with, you know, 332 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:56,480 a chance my beacon falls out and I've got to keep release, but I do not want to trust that little 333 00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:01,840 plastic clip with my life swept in an avalanche. Right. Yeah. And it really drove it home to me 334 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:07,360 of like, this is a really difficult problem to solve for the professionals. So how the hell 335 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:13,280 does a normal person who ski tours once or twice a month going to deal with this? Absolutely. No, 336 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:18,560 that's why this is this is one of those big breakthroughs in technology that that will change 337 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:26,880 the game and ultimately make it a lot safer. And my experience with the beacon was I usually use 338 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,960 a mammoth. That's what I've used for a long time. And the things I appreciate about that 339 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:36,640 seem to be the same with the peeps in that it's an incredibly precise and accurate arrow. So if 340 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,960 the arrow is aiming at the victim, that window is only a few degrees, whereas some brands, 341 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:48,000 it's really wide. It's like a 30 degree window. Are there any specs on that that they were with? 342 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:53,600 They were aiming for the engineers? Well, yeah, it went from 15 to 7. So when you get down to that 343 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:59,040 fine search, and that's when I mean, you're just following the arrow and the flux line to start 344 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:04,080 with, right? But when you get down inside 10 meters, that's that's when that that arrow is really 345 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:12,160 critical. And the more accurate that arrow is in the fine search, the less time you spend on the 346 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:18,080 grid search. Yep. Yeah. And what I find when I'm teaching avalanche courses, or even for clients 347 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:23,280 or beginners, you know, that that fine search we do the grid takes up far and away the most amount 348 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:28,240 of time. And we can eliminate that all together, we just like lining it up at 10 meters, and you're 349 00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:33,600 pointing right at the victim. And then when you get down to four, again, it's right at the victim, 350 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:39,600 and your partner can start probing. And they're going to find it before I finish my lowest reading 351 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:48,720 doing the doing the fine search for the marketing. And then it seemed like when I got in on the with 352 00:37:48,720 --> 00:37:59,120 the peeps, at the very end, what happens to the arrows? When you're within like, is it two meters? 353 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:06,800 The arrows go away. And why is that? Why is that important? Well, because at that point, you should 354 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:14,400 be you should be in the grid search. Yeah. Yeah. Because it drives me nuts when he can still have 355 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:19,600 an arrow that close, because they're overwhelmed by the infinite number of flux lines. And that 356 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:25,760 arrow is no longer accurate. And I love that the peeps just prompts you to do, hey, do your 357 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:31,840 grid instead of giving you an arrow that's not accurate at all. And then you have to block that 358 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:36,640 out. You just like one more thing that I don't have to think about. So right focus on my job. 359 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:48,080 And the long range too. Yeah. Yeah, well, the, the, as you know, the antenna flips out. And so by 360 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:54,400 moving the antenna out away from the rest of the software, that's because the software also 361 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:59,760 causes interference. Okay. So if you can move that antenna away from the interference, that's 362 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:05,040 one of the reasons we have longer range. Okay. Because I was like, wow, I've never seen a beacon 363 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:10,560 where you flip out the antenna. I feel like it's Saturday morning cartoons in Vermont. And my 364 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:15,520 brother's holding the rabbit ear antennas so we can watch and then it's going to be my turn. Okay, 365 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:23,680 but that kind of makes sense. You get better reception. Yeah. Okay. And then what's the 366 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:33,200 what's the availability for this beacon? Right now it's just we've got we've got some out to guides 367 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:39,840 and professionals like yourself. And it will be available next fall. Okay. Yeah. Or you can go 368 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:46,160 to Europe and get one. All right. Now we've got a big day of tour and tomorrow. And none of us are 369 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:50,560 as fit as we used to be. So we're going to get an early start. So we're going to wrap this up. We've 370 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:57,600 got two more questions. What happened? I asked you. You didn't ask me about the I probe. Oh, yeah. 371 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:06,560 The I probe is very cool. And the I probe is something that's been around for a kind of overlooked, 372 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:14,000 completely overlooked, completely overlooked by me. And I'm the ski category manager. So 373 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:21,200 it's like this ski category director is missing this. Then, you know, yeah, of course, everybody 374 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:26,720 else kind of ties back into what you said before, like it could be a fantastic world beating idea. 375 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:32,560 But if the messaging isn't there, it doesn't resonate with people. And I don't get it. So the 376 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:37,440 the I probe actually has a sensor in the tip of the probe, as you know, and when it gets close to 377 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:44,720 the beacon, it sounds like the backup camera on your car goes beep, beep, and then beep. So the cool 378 00:40:44,720 --> 00:40:50,880 thing about this is, as you know, having taught lots of avalanche courses, two of the biggest 379 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:56,720 struggles for people learning this is one, to do an accurate grid search. It's not that easy. It falls 380 00:40:56,720 --> 00:41:04,000 apart. Yeah, falls apart. And second, when they're probing, how do I know when I've got a body? 381 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:09,600 You know, is that a lock? Or is it a helmet? Is it a log? Or yeah, what the heck is it? Yeah. And so 382 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:17,520 this takes the both of those eliminates the need for both of those because as you're doing, as you 383 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:24,080 said, as you get inside five meters, and you're slowing down and you've dialed in that that line, 384 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:30,320 and you're going straight ahead, somebody can be probing and hearing how close they are. And 385 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:37,200 before you even finish, get to the lowest point on your beacon, they've already got a strike. Yeah. 386 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:44,320 And there's no questioning. Is this a, is this a body or not? I can't imagine a worse feeling 387 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:51,360 of digging down a meter and a half and moving one to two tons and being like, shit, we didn't have 388 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:58,320 them. Right. That was a log. And that happened. That was mud. It felt squishy, but it's not a person. 389 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:03,760 Yep. That's terrifying. Yeah. And you don't know what a body, I mean, I don't know what a body feels 390 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:10,080 like with the probe. I've never probed a body. So yeah. Unless you get their booty. 391 00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:20,400 And then wrap up question. Got any questions for me? 392 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:28,400 Yeah. Aspect Abbey. I mean, this, this, this is a really cool thing. I think again, when you talk 393 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:35,600 about safety and trying to what, anyway, you slice it ski touring can be risky, but you can, 394 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:42,640 you can make it as risky as you want. You can go out in high hazard and, and, and ski dangerous lines, 395 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:50,560 or you can go out in high hazard and ski mellow lines. Yeah. Right. So how is, tell me about 396 00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:56,800 Aspect Abbey and how that's going to help. Well, I was putting myself in your shoes and Angela's 397 00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:02,800 shoes, because we all know guides, mountain professionals are the highest risk group. And 398 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:08,080 we've lost so many friends and colleagues. And we don't want to be in that group. And we also know 399 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:14,560 that about the sketchiest thing you can do is guides out on their day off skiing together. 400 00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:20,400 Because the, the human factor traps are through the roof. Usually someone's a local. So familiarity 401 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:26,560 trap. And you've got the expert halo of like, Oh, we're all super dialed, super accomplished. 402 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:32,800 And then there's this weird thing that happens where we always have to be in control and at work. 403 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:38,000 And when we're not at work, we don't want to be. And it's like, Hey, this is my day off. I am not 404 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:43,520 going to herd these cats. And they're all fiercely independent. And there's going to be this weird 405 00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:48,320 social pushback. If I'm the negative Ned, he's like, I don't know guys, this feels a little 406 00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:55,600 aggressive. I'm going to get ridiculed by my peers. And it's a weird dynamic. And oftentimes the 407 00:43:55,600 --> 00:44:01,440 sketchiest things that I've ever been involved with the closest calls are on formerly on guides, 408 00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:09,920 courses and exams and guides on their day out. And that's just how it is. And I was thinking 409 00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:14,880 about for you guys, we're just coming off a high danger. And before that, we were pegged at 410 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:21,600 considerable for like 11 days, there's more persistent week layers than I can count. And 411 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:28,960 you guys have never skied here. Right. And you're like, What am I walking into? We're going to go 412 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:35,920 meto skipping. Well, what was your experience like tonight when we we we got out the laptop and we 413 00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:44,720 went to app dot aspect abby.com. And you had the run list for crested view. I mean, it, it takes a 414 00:44:44,720 --> 00:44:52,000 lot of that. That human factor out of the equation. Because we looked at it and and just like, I want 415 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:57,920 to ski north facing. Yeah, we go, Okay, what are north facing up because it's been worn. And the 416 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:04,560 cool thing with with the app too is, is you can choose a lot of some of the apps, you know, 417 00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:11,760 Gaia and Cal Topo have slope angle shading. So you can see, you know, it's, it's, it's 418 00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:20,640 green or yellow to orange to red to purple, like 10 different colors. Right. And I'm like a tie dye 419 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:27,520 t-shirt at a concert. I just want to know right now, if it's, if it's considerable, I want to stay 420 00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:34,560 below 30. Yeah. So I don't care what shade it is above 30. Yeah. I just want to know everything 421 00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:41,120 that's under 30. Yeah. And that's what I thought was really cool about the app is like, everything, 422 00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:46,880 everything that's above 30 is red. And what I felt was really cool was we're on equal footing. 423 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:53,600 Because even though I'm the local and been here for 20 something years, like we all have the same 424 00:45:53,600 --> 00:46:00,720 information and we can discuss it and it's a level playing field. And there's the gets rid of the 425 00:46:00,720 --> 00:46:05,360 hierarchy, which if you're going to have a well functioning team and a high risk environment, 426 00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:11,760 there can be no hierarchy. Like everyone's opinion and data needs to be incorporated in the team 427 00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:18,800 decision. And it took us like three minutes to be like, that's where we're going. And Angela just 428 00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:23,680 zoomed in. It was like, I want to ski north facing for the best snow quality. And like you said, 429 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:29,600 like, I mean, you started the extreme skiing movement in America, one could arguably say you 430 00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:34,320 have at least some shared responsibility for that. And you're like, I don't want to ski over 30 degrees 431 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:41,360 today. I want to be skiing blue run terrain and come home safely. And we're like, yes, we all agree 432 00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:46,720 on that. And let's look for the ones that are in the clear. Yeah. What's that? My goals with every 433 00:46:46,720 --> 00:46:58,080 tourist ski the next day. My motto used to be look good, ski fast, safety last. 434 00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:06,960 But then I got the beat down so many times, like, oh, yeah, let's have a long and adventurous life. 435 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:11,840 Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Well, thanks so much. Appreciate you coming on. Thanks for having me. It's like 436 00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:16,240 a tour to the tour. Yeah, tomorrow's gonna be great. You're breaking trail. We're delocal. I 437 00:47:16,240 --> 00:47:19,120 think we're bringing in the ringer of Britain and Alex. She's super fit. 438 00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:27,360 All right, thanks. Thank you so much for listening to all aspects. If you like what we're doing here, 439 00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:31,120 please leave a rating interview. It really is the best way to help others find the show. 440 00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:34,960 Thanks again to our business daddy, Aspect Davi for making this show possible. To learn more 441 00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:40,720 about how Aspect Davi is making avalanche safety simple, go to aspectdavi.com. If you want to use 442 00:47:40,720 --> 00:47:44,640 this powerful new tool on your next back country adventure, simply download the app from the app 443 00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:50,320 store and enjoy 30 days free on them. Lastly, special thanks to Ice Lab for helping us produce 444 00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:54,960 this show. You guys rock and we couldn't do without you. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you 445 00:47:54,960 --> 00:48:17,600 in the back country.