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Welcome to All Aspects, a podcast where we explore, discuss, and celebrate adventure

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culture and outdoor lifestyle.

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It is our mission to educate, inform, and entertain our fellow adventurers about the

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inherent risks that surround us every time we go outside to play, and to provide you

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with the knowledge and tools to help you do the things you love the most and the safest

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way possible.

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All Aspects is brought to you by AspectAvy.

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AspectAvy is on a mission to save lives by making avalanche safety simple.

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It is the only app that tells you where the high and low risk zones are for today's avalanche

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danger.

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With a suite of built in tools like forecast verification, slope meter, and gear checklist,

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AspectAvy is the new safety standard for avalanche risk management.

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Remember, there are dozens of apps that get you into the backcountry, but there is only

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one that is designed to bring you home.

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And that's AspectAvy.

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Go to aspectavy.com to learn more or download the app to start your 30 day free trial.

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Thank you AspectAvy for making this show possible and thank you for listening.

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Alright, let's get to the show.

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What's your spirit animal today Dave?

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My spirit animal is a sloth.

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I'm getting ready to sloth.

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Oh.

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I don't know why.

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It's my favorite animal.

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I sloth you sloth, he shear it, sloths we all sloth.

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Pretty much.

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Yeah.

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What's your spirit animal for today?

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I'm going to use the Spanish verb chilar to chilax.

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Sure.

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Yeah.

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Like chilamos.

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We're going to chilamos together.

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Okay.

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With some llamas.

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Well, in the spirit of that, let's chilamos on this episode two of our podcast.

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And today I wanted to talk to you about something that I didn't really know anything about until

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starting to hang out with you and the world that you're in, which is heuristic traps or

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more like an easier way to describe them as human factor traps.

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If you don't speak Greek for instance.

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Which is that's the Greek root.

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I do not.

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And I don't speak psychological mountain nerd.

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So you're saying you were unfamiliar with human factor traps.

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You started hanging out with the physical embodiment of all of them, which is me.

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You and your friends.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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I think that's accurate.

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Okay.

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So in the spirit of that, I wanted to, because I think the first episode we talked about

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avalanche problems.

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Yep.

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And I think this.

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How to make them simple.

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This, this is sort of the next add on to that in a way.

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Yeah.

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Because we talked about the snow factors that can cause avalanches and how you can get in

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trouble there.

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But this is really more of the psychological approach of how we get ourselves into trouble.

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We knew it was dangerous and we still went there anyway.

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And we rationalized it to our friends and why we should do something really risky.

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Totally.

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Yes.

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It's the equivalent of here, Dewey, hold my beer, watch this.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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So, that analogy, just to catch people up who aren't familiar.

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Will you describe to me as simply as possible what the hell human factor traps are?

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Okay.

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So, nine out of 10 avalanche fatalities are attributed to human factor traps.

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Okay.

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And human factor trap is a way of saying, hey, we didn't have a good system to make

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decisions, so we leaned on these stupid human tricks that get us into big trouble.

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And the reason why they're very appealing is they're fast, take very little energy,

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and you can do it when you're cold, tired, and hungry, and exhausted, and they sound

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really truthy when you're saying it.

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And I've fallen into all of these myself.

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And when you say when you're saying it, you mean when you're saying it to yourself as

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well.

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So, we're trying to convince your riding partners why we should ski this 40-degree

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bowl when it's considerable danger and we have an old snow problem.

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And what happens is the way our brains work is we make up our minds, we make up an opinion,

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and a feeling, and then we rationalize why that's true.

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With these, with all these traps that you're talking about.

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Yeah.

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Or I guess that's how they become traps.

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So, these are the classic ways of totally blowing it, stupid human tricks.

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And you don't have to feel bad about identifying it in yourself or your partners because we

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all share this.

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This is how humans are hardwired.

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And there's an advantage in simple environments without consequences because you're like,

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hey, where are we going to eat tonight?

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And you're like, well, that place is packed.

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It must be good.

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Let's go there.

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And if you get it wrong, well, maybe you got a little problem.

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But the stakes are low, right?

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Yeah.

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Where as the problem is when we're in the back country, it's what they call a wicked

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learning environment.

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Meaning we may do it wrong for a couple tours or many tours and get no feedback.

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And they're like, well, we didn't trigger any avalanches.

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I guess we're doing it right.

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And because we don't have any positive or negative feedback, I guess, because even positive feedback

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is sort of negative feedback in this exact scenario.

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You're losing me there, Dave.

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Keep it simple.

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You're losing me like I'm a six-year-old.

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If you do something wrong 10 times and you don't know you're doing it wrong, then you're

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not doing it right.

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Correct.

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Like you're learning to do something.

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It's like you're turning in your essay to your teacher and you never get any red marks

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on it.

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They just take it and they throw it in the recycle bin because they're like, I just can't

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be bothered to read just paper.

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But how are you supposed to know what if you did well or not?

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Exactly.

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OK.

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Exactly.

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So, we're going to learn a few things about the way to make decisions.

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We're going to lean on these stupid human tricks, these human factor traps.

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And the Greek word is heuristics.

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And that comes from the same root as eureka.

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I've got it.

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It's like inspiration hit me.

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Really?

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Yeah.

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That's where it comes from.

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Heuristic.

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The word is derived from eureka.

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Yep.

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I've got it instantly.

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And you're like, well, is there any data to support this?

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Maybe truthy.

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No way.

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OK.

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Far out, huh?

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Learn something new every day.

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There you go.

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So, can you run me through really quickly just each one of the classic human factor traps

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and then maybe give me a quick example of what that would look like?

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Yeah.

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Why don't we run through them all and then we'll break them down individually.

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How's that sound?

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Great.

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OK.

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So, this is about 20 years ago.

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Ground baking paper by Ian McCammoth.

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And he leaned really heavily on social psychology from Danny Kahneman, who's a Nobel Prize winning

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social psychologist from Israel.

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And he's also New York Times bestseller, author.

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He's a freaking genius.

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And he basically upended economics and said, hey, listen, the fundamental underpinning

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in economics is that humans are rational actors.

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And that is just not true because I don't know any of those people.

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And I'm certainly not one of those people because let's face it, you and I, we've dedicated

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our lives to skiing.

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And it's dangerous.

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It's expensive.

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And we've sacrificed a lot of opportunities to pursue that because it brings us joy.

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And it makes our heart sing and we just love it more than anything else.

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Right on.

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OK.

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I'm in line with that.

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All right.

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So, let's just assume that Danny Kahneman is right and he's got a million dollars for

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this Nobel Prize that says he is right.

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And it changed the world.

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And I highly recommend you read his book or listen to him on some podcasts.

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Phenomenal.

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So the classic free plug on this.

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Yeah, exactly.

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So McCammon mined his work and said, hey, in avalanches, we see this all the time where

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humans had a feeling or an opinion and they went with their gut and it really got them

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into trouble.

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And here's the classic six traps and they fall under the acronym of facets because we

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know that facets, if you're an avalanche geek, those are the sugar crystals.

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And in Colorado, those old snow week layers, that kills 95% of people.

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So facets are bad and facets, the acronym for the human factor traps.

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These are bad as well.

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So we got familiarity.

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Acceptance.

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Commitment.

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Expert halo.

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Tracks and social proof.

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Okay.

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Oh, sorry.

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Social.

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Scarcity.

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Yeah.

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Some people flip them around, but we'll use.

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Because it's a track.

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Is a track social proof?

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Yeah, exactly.

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Okay.

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Yeah, McCammon did it a little bit differently, but it's harder to remember the original paper

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that he did.

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So we'll go with a simplified version.

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So we'll say tracks and then we'll say scarcity.

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Gotcha.

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Okay.

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And then can you give up just really quick, because I don't want to bog down on each one

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and dive into it, but could you give us, you know, let's just start off with familiarity.

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What's an example of familiarity?

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Well, Dave, I've skied this slope a thousand times and I've never seen an avalanche here.

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Okay.

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Which obviously when you're dealing with something that's unpredictable, snow, it sounds totally

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ridiculous when we're sitting here.

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Yeah.

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But that's not an uncommon thing or that's not, yeah, that's a common thing to hear when

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you're here.

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You hear it all the time.

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Always.

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We did this last week.

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Well, it's snow to foot.

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Yeah.

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So the key question there is, well, what's different?

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Do we have exceptional conditions?

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And what we're seeing now at the start of this year, the whole West is pretty much well below

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average in snowpack.

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So we're going to have a lot of old snow layers in places that don't usually have them.

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And that is going to cause problems for a long time.

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And so what we've done in the past is not going to be applicable when we have exceptional

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conditions that are outside our normal experience.

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Right.

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And when someone says they've skied this slope a hundred times, a thousand times, what they

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really mean is probably 10, maybe 15.

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Right.

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Shave 99% off of that number.

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So they think they're pulling off a massive data set, but what they're really pulling

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off is they're very limited human experience.

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So they're pulling off a miracle.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Okay.

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The next one is acceptance.

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Can you give me an example?

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Yeah.

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Humans are social creatures and it's incredibly important for us to fit in with our clan,

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with our group, with our pack, because we wouldn't have survived very long out on our

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own.

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We're designed to work together and dominate the planet.

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And if you're the outcast, that can be pretty tough.

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And so we can often be very reluctant to share an opinion that goes against the group or goes

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against maybe the biggest loudmouth jerk in the group who's like, dude, really?

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Come on.

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You're worried about this?

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It's going to be fine.

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Just send it.

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Yeah, just send it.

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And so it can be very difficult to push back and feel like, oh, geez, I don't want to be

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the negative net in the group.

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And you know, Homer dismisses me as, come on, Flanders.

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You know, don't be the negative net.

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Just go along and have a good time.

257
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Yeah, and that's interesting too, because sometimes even when you have a genuine question

258
00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,960
that's not even doubting the decisions we're all making, it can come across as being the

259
00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:21,960
negative Nancy.

260
00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:22,960
Yep.

261
00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:24,960
And that's, that will stop.

262
00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:25,960
Go along to get along.

263
00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,120
That will sometimes stop people from even bringing something up because they don't even want

264
00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,040
to be perceived as being the negative Nancy.

265
00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:39,280
It could also, as well, acceptance in a group is like, hey, if I ski this steep gnarly line,

266
00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:43,600
I can blow it up on Instawebs and social media.

267
00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:44,600
And all these people will think I'm sick.

268
00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:46,600
And all these people are going to give me adulation.

269
00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:48,360
And we see this in ski movies as well.

270
00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:49,520
It's totally unrealistic.

271
00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:51,840
And folks get avalanched all the time.

272
00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,640
And we're like, yeah, this is amazing.

273
00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:58,720
It's like literally theaters across the nation cheering people out running avalanches.

274
00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:00,440
Yeah, that's wildly unrealistic.

275
00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:02,720
And as an avalanche educator, I get that all the time.

276
00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:04,960
Like, hey, why are you here to take your airy level too?

277
00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,920
And they said, because I want to send the gnar midwinter in Colorado.

278
00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:10,720
And I'm like, I'm sorry, that's just not going to happen very often.

279
00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:12,440
You should pick up base jumping.

280
00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:13,440
Exactly.

281
00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,840
Or you should consider moving to a maritime snowpack.

282
00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:17,840
Sure.

283
00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:19,640
Yeah, go to BC.

284
00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:23,240
OK, what is, let's talk about commitment.

285
00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:24,240
Commitment.

286
00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:25,240
That's the next one.

287
00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:30,560
So let's say we're on our dream vacation on a hut trip and conditions are not good.

288
00:12:30,560 --> 00:12:33,880
It's considerable danger with an old snow problem.

289
00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:35,520
And there's an avalanche warning out.

290
00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:37,280
And we're like, whoa.

291
00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,720
But this is our one time to go into the hut this year.

292
00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:44,080
And we had to cancel it last year because everybody got COVID.

293
00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:45,640
And we've got to make this work.

294
00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,360
And you're like, wow, the approach to the hut is super gnarly.

295
00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:53,720
You need to go under huge avalanche shoots and be really exposed.

296
00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:59,760
We're likely to fall into that commitment trap of we've already booked the reservation,

297
00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:04,160
the money is sunk, we can't get it back, we're going no matter what.

298
00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:05,160
Right.

299
00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:09,920
Yeah, and that one's tricky too because the stakes don't even have to be that high.

300
00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:10,920
Yeah.

301
00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,160
It can be as simple as we're going to go ski this face today.

302
00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:14,160
Yeah.

303
00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:15,160
And we didn't have any backup plans.

304
00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:19,240
And then the whole time we're going up this face, it's, man, the snow's not even looking

305
00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:20,240
that good.

306
00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,600
Or we're seeing signs of wind, like whatever, name anything.

307
00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:24,920
But you're just committed.

308
00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:30,640
We see a whole bunch of red flag, obvious clues, recent avalanches, cracks under our

309
00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,640
skis, warmth, wind loading.

310
00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:36,680
And we're just like, wow, but we didn't have any backup plan.

311
00:13:36,680 --> 00:13:37,680
Right.

312
00:13:37,680 --> 00:13:41,840
So if we get to the top of the bowl and we're trying to decide between going back down the

313
00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:48,440
wind scoured skin track and skiing grass and rocks, or the wind loaded bowl at 40 degrees

314
00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:55,040
at considerable, we're going to find a way to rationalize why skiing the bowl makes sense.

315
00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:56,880
To convince ourselves that it's going to work.

316
00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:57,880
Yeah.

317
00:13:57,880 --> 00:13:58,880
Yeah.

318
00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:03,440
And the tricky thing is you equated this kind of when I was learning about this, you equated

319
00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:11,960
this, like all of these to, you know, we approach doing dangerous things logically, kind of like

320
00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:12,960
what you're talking about.

321
00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,080
But really when we do it, it's just being good at poker.

322
00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,880
It's like, how good are you at playing this dicey game?

323
00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:26,640
And so I think that's something that has always stuck with me of, especially when we're out

324
00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:32,520
in the back country of like, do I really know what I'm doing?

325
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,760
Or do I have like a good full house?

326
00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:35,760
Right.

327
00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,200
Like, do I have a good feeling about this?

328
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:39,200
Yeah.

329
00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:44,840
Or am I like certain because there is evidence to back up what we're talking about skiing?

330
00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:45,840
Yeah.

331
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,440
And it's rarely certain in the snow back.

332
00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:49,440
Yeah.

333
00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:50,720
As certain as you could be, right?

334
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:51,720
Yeah.

335
00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:52,720
Yeah.

336
00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:58,160
By the way, there is zero correlation between our confidence and our accuracy.

337
00:14:58,160 --> 00:14:59,160
Of course.

338
00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:04,840
So if you ask me, this is a perfect segue to the next one, it's E for expert Halo.

339
00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:11,120
If you say to me, Jeff, hey, how certain are you that the bowl isn't going to slide?

340
00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:17,040
And if I say, I'm 100% certain that is a huge red flag and you just call me out because

341
00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,760
the expert Halo is kicking in.

342
00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:25,320
Where I have so many years of experience and so much training under my belt gives me a

343
00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:33,360
false sense of security and it gives me a sense that I've mastered something that is

344
00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:34,860
unknowable.

345
00:15:34,860 --> 00:15:40,760
To some extent, the snowpack is never truly knowable.

346
00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:46,600
And it's much like the game of chess versus the game of poker.

347
00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:52,680
So chess, the pieces move in a reliable pattern and all the information is out there.

348
00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:57,440
And so usually the best player wins because they have more skill.

349
00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:01,720
But that's not like that with avalanches or poker because I can have a really strong

350
00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:02,720
hand.

351
00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:03,720
I might have a full house.

352
00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:09,240
So I've got a couple of kings and three queens and I'm like, I'm going to push all my chips

353
00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:10,240
into the middle.

354
00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:15,720
We're going to ski the bowl and then you have a better hand and you whiten me out.

355
00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,200
And I'm just like, oh, such bad luck.

356
00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:20,200
Who could have foreseen this?

357
00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:26,440
And you're like, well, if you run the odds, you might be confident that you're likely

358
00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,840
to win, but there's no certainty there.

359
00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:30,840
Yeah.

360
00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:31,840
Exactly.

361
00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:36,160
Yeah, when we're dealing with a snowpack, we have to recognize that even as an expert,

362
00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,280
the snowpack to an extent is unknowable.

363
00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,400
And there's always a degree of risk that it could avalanche.

364
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:42,400
Right.

365
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:49,040
I think something that's interesting about this particular human factor trap, which is

366
00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:54,320
the expert Halo, to me, almost seems like it goes the other way.

367
00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:55,320
Oh yeah.

368
00:16:55,320 --> 00:17:00,280
A bit, at least talking to you, because in our last podcast, you were talking about how

369
00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:05,880
you know that sheer probability because of how much you've done this, sheer probability

370
00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:12,880
itself means that you are living in kind of the weird zone of like freak accents and crazy

371
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:13,880
things.

372
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,120
My exposure time is 100 plus days a year in avalanche terrain times 30 years.

373
00:17:17,120 --> 00:17:18,120
It's massive.

374
00:17:18,120 --> 00:17:21,000
Yeah, it's thousands of days of exposure.

375
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,480
I was told there'd be no math on this podcast, by the way.

376
00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:27,280
We're going to say that in every single episode, aren't we?

377
00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,360
We might just have to get better at math.

378
00:17:30,360 --> 00:17:36,120
But I think that's really interesting because you're aware of that fact that you're, but

379
00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:43,720
then even with that knowledge rationally floating around your brain, it's still, anyone could

380
00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:48,840
get out and just be like, oh, this looks sick and I have a good feeling about this.

381
00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:53,640
And that comes from the school hard knocks where I was absolutely confident and certain

382
00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:55,360
and we triggered an avalanche.

383
00:17:55,360 --> 00:18:01,160
And then I was like, oh, and after that happens numerous times over your career, that illusion

384
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,480
of certainty is totally exploded.

385
00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:08,560
You're just like, yeah, that way lies madness.

386
00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:15,720
And on the flowchart of mastery, there's a fork and you start off as a novice.

387
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:17,600
You don't know what you don't know.

388
00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:22,120
And it's kind of like the Dunning-Kruger effect where you're just really confident because

389
00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:25,920
you've never seen it go bad badly.

390
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:27,120
You never had close calls.

391
00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:32,960
And then as you get to an intermediate, you've seen it go wrong a couple times and you realize,

392
00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,680
oh, this is way harder than I thought.

393
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,840
And then you've got a fork in the road.

394
00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:46,200
And the false master is like, well, I've got my avalanche certs and you're like, great,

395
00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:50,800
you showed up to a class and you paid your money and you did okay.

396
00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:54,120
Good for you, Pat on the back.

397
00:18:54,120 --> 00:19:02,560
And without a reliable process to make decisions that gives you feedback in a timely matter

398
00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:08,040
on the spot, you're going to be lulled into think that you're nailing it.

399
00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,320
And this is the false master.

400
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:15,160
And on the other side is Yoda, the true master.

401
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:21,680
And you have to be aware of your own incompetence and be super diligent with your decision-making

402
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:29,560
processes that have a lot of margin for error and redundancy built in and gives you feedback

403
00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:31,520
along the way.

404
00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,600
And that doesn't really exist in the avalanche world.

405
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:36,600
The system.

406
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:37,600
Yeah.

407
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:42,400
The current system that we've been using in the avalanche world, you don't finish a tour

408
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:49,220
and say, hey, we can see that we were in the red high-risk zone until Aspect Abbey.

409
00:19:49,220 --> 00:19:50,800
That just didn't exist.

410
00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:55,520
And so you and I would debrief at the tailgate over a beer and be like, well, what'd you think?

411
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,280
And I'm like, I don't know.

412
00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:59,040
Felt good to me and feel good to you.

413
00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:00,240
All right, high five.

414
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:01,240
We did it right.

415
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:08,640
Now we have a way to verify if what we did was actually roll in the dice or if it was

416
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,520
a good decision based off of information we had.

417
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:13,960
Again, can you give us feedback instantly?

418
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:19,160
If I get a little powder crazy and I ski over the steep rollover that you pointed out and

419
00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:20,480
said, hey, that's red on the map.

420
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,080
We're not going there.

421
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:27,080
That's over the limit for today's avalanche forecast.

422
00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,120
You can call that out on the spot and be like, hey, Jeff, that wasn't cool.

423
00:20:30,120 --> 00:20:31,400
We said we weren't going to go into the night.

424
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:32,400
We're not going that way.

425
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:33,400
Yeah, we're not going that way.

426
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:34,400
We went to Crazy Town.

427
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:35,400
Okay.

428
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,400
And I'll be like, oh my God, sorry, I just kind of lost my mind there.

429
00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,160
Fucking expert halo, Jeff.

430
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:40,160
Yeah.

431
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:41,280
All right, the next one is tracks.

432
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:43,160
Or yeah, tracks.

433
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:49,000
So oftentimes we'll see multiple tracks on the slope and that's the social proof that,

434
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,800
hey, they jumped off the bridge and they were just fine.

435
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:52,800
Right.

436
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:54,800
It didn't slide when they skied it.

437
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:55,800
Yeah.

438
00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,440
And this is where it gets really tricky because with an old snow problem particularly, and

439
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:04,840
that's far and away the biggest killer, not just in Colorado, but in the whole U.S. and

440
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:11,960
we're going to have a ton of old snow problems in places that don't usually have that.

441
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,840
This is where the tracks lull you into safety.

442
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,800
And you think, oh, there's a hundred tracks in the slope.

443
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:23,040
Well, it only takes one person to hit that trigger point.

444
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:24,200
Think of it as a landmine.

445
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:34,200
And those trigger points are often where the snowpack is thinner along rocks or brush or

446
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,320
trees where the facets tend to grow.

447
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,480
And right now we have perfect conditions for growing facets.

448
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,640
And facets are just sugar, the old snow problem.

449
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:49,200
And so it doesn't matter how many tracks are on the slope.

450
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,840
If you've got an old snow problem, you could be the one that triggers it.

451
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:57,160
It could be tracked out wall to wall and then you find the sweet spot and boom, the whole

452
00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,160
thing out of an inch.

453
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:00,160
Right.

454
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:01,160
It's freaky.

455
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:02,160
Freaky.

456
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:03,160
All right.

457
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:04,160
And then the last one, scarcity.

458
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:05,160
Yeah, scarcity.

459
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,720
And we're probably going to see that a lot this year where it hasn't snowed very much

460
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:09,800
at all.

461
00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:14,280
Most of the country is at 60% or less of the normal snowpack.

462
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,280
So powder fever is going to be really high.

463
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:22,640
And we're going to have a weak old snow snowpack across the majority of the Western U.S. and

464
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:28,160
when it does finally start to snow, there's going to be a lot of pent up scarcity where

465
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:33,200
I haven't gotten my powder fix this year and it's super dangerous and it's going to stay

466
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:38,960
dangerous for a long period of time to that old snow problem heels, which takes forever.

467
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,240
And we're going to want to be getting after it.

468
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:46,480
And if I see tracks going in and I'm like, oh my God, they're stealing my powder.

469
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:47,480
They got it.

470
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:48,480
Yeah.

471
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,560
So that social proof and scarcity go hand in hand.

472
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:52,560
That's like a run on the bank.

473
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:57,280
And you're like, oh my God, I got to get my money out before they know that I don't know.

474
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:58,280
Yeah, exactly.

475
00:22:58,280 --> 00:22:59,280
Crazy.

476
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:00,280
Okay.

477
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:05,480
So thanks for like breaking all those down and kind of giving an example of each one.

478
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:10,720
And now the question I ask is what do we do about it?

479
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:16,000
How do we, how do we, well actually before we jump into that, we are specifically talking

480
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:20,480
about backcountry skiing and snowboarding with these examples because that's how we really

481
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:21,480
interact with it.

482
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,960
But human factor traps, like they exist.

483
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:26,120
They rule our lives.

484
00:23:26,120 --> 00:23:27,360
Like it's everything, right?

485
00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:33,920
You could look at most car accidents or climbing accidents or any kind of high risk activity

486
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:35,280
that results in an accident.

487
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:39,240
You're like, you can probably attribute it to one of those human factor traps we just

488
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:40,240
went over.

489
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:41,240
Okay.

490
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:45,600
So this is a broader, for the purpose of this podcast, because this is where we live,

491
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:46,840
you know, this is our world.

492
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:47,840
Yeah.

493
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:48,840
We're going to stick to this.

494
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:49,840
Stick to the avalanches.

495
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:56,160
But for anyone listening, know that these can be applied to pretty much everything you

496
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:57,160
do.

497
00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:58,160
Yeah.

498
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:00,360
As far as action sports, adventure, yeah, all that stuff.

499
00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:05,480
And I wish I was immune to it as an expert, but I'm just as guilty of falling into human

500
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,840
factor traps as a novice.

501
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:09,480
Well, they're traps, man.

502
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:10,480
They're traps.

503
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:11,480
You fall into them.

504
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:12,480
Yeah.

505
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:13,480
By definition.

506
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,520
I think of it as like a tiger trap in the jungle, you know, where they got the palm

507
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:20,200
fronds and you fall in and you just never saw it coming.

508
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:21,200
So, okay.

509
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,720
I can see it a lot easier in other people, but I have real hard time seeing it myself.

510
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,960
Funny how it's easier to see the things that are pretty typical.

511
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,880
The projections, the problems with other people and not yourself.

512
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:33,880
All right.

513
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:34,880
Okay.

514
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,480
So then now let's jump into what do we do about this?

515
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:39,480
Yeah.

516
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:40,480
How can we take action on this?

517
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,160
You know, to me, after just hearing all that stuff and I'm thinking through my head like,

518
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:45,640
oh yeah, I've got to feel that.

519
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:46,640
I've thought that.

520
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:48,560
I've been in groups that did that.

521
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:50,120
So where do we go?

522
00:24:50,120 --> 00:24:51,120
What's our solution?

523
00:24:51,120 --> 00:24:57,600
So about 20 years ago, McCammon did a great job of identifying, basically diagnosing the

524
00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:58,720
thing that gets us killed.

525
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:03,280
We knew it was dangerous and somehow we had a feeling that we wanted to do it and we rationalized

526
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:04,720
why it was a smart thing to do.

527
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,960
You're referring to his paper that he released in like 2002?

528
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:12,560
So that's the equivalent of saying, hey, we discovered cancer and we know how to diagnose

529
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:13,560
it.

530
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:14,880
But we have no way of treating it.

531
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:16,560
Good luck with that.

532
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,280
So that was the paper 20 years ago.

533
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:24,760
That was 20 years ago and there had been nothing in the field to treat the human factor traps.

534
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:29,800
We've basically said we've identified cancer, job done.

535
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:37,400
But okay, so then, yeah, I mean, I guess you're not really being caught about this stuff and

536
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:38,760
like rescue courses.

537
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:43,240
Well, you're often taught, hey, facets, these are the classic traps to watch out for.

538
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:44,240
Did they exist?

539
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:45,680
Did they exist?

540
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:51,040
But until now, we didn't have a way to give you live feedback and say, hey, you're about

541
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,480
to do something really risky.

542
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:59,080
Which of these human factor traps are you falling into, do you think?

543
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:04,400
So basically you and I would be at the top of the bowl and I'd be trying to con you into

544
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,360
why we're going to go ski this sketchy line.

545
00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:09,200
And you're like, man, I don't know.

546
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:10,720
I don't feel good about this.

547
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:17,760
But it'd be really hard to push back with anything concrete except to just have an argument.

548
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:23,560
And it's you opinionating and me opinionating and who's going to dig in their heels and

549
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,120
try to bludgeon the other person with their opinion.

550
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:28,440
Okay, so then I have a question.

551
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:29,440
Yeah.

552
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:34,120
I feel like I know where you're going, but in that exact scenario, I think there would

553
00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:38,440
be a term that would probably be thrown around, which one of us would probably say, I got

554
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,000
a good feeling about this or my gut is telling me your intuition.

555
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:48,120
So where in the grand scheme of this, of these traps, like where is intuition or your gut

556
00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:49,280
feeling?

557
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:50,720
Where do we want to listen to that?

558
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:52,800
And where does that lead us into these traps?

559
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:53,800
That's a great question.

560
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,280
So intuition is a one way street.

561
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:03,600
If you listen to your intuition, which is your subconscious mind processing faster than

562
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:11,480
your conscious mind, and it's recognizing patterns, you can use it to step back and be more conservative.

563
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:12,480
Okay.

564
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,160
You're like, Hey, something doesn't feel right.

565
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:15,240
I don't like this.

566
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:16,240
I'm out.

567
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:17,240
Okay.

568
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:18,560
That's like when you're getting the bad vibe.

569
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:19,560
Yeah.

570
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:23,120
And I can't put my finger on it, but something doesn't feel right.

571
00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:28,080
That's when intuition can be very powerful and super preventive.

572
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:29,840
But you can't use it the other way.

573
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:34,760
You can't say, Hey, I'm at the top of the bowl, I feel good about this because what

574
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:39,480
that is saying is I feel good about skiing two feet of powder on a considerable day on

575
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,040
a 45 degree slope.

576
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,800
That's like the dopamine overriding and being like, you're already getting the chemical

577
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:45,800
reward in your brain.

578
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:46,800
Guilty as charged.

579
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:47,800
Guilty as charged.

580
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:48,800
Okay.

581
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:54,760
So the gut feeling really the only way to properly use that is in a conservative manner

582
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:59,240
to take a step back, take a macro view on something and be like, I think, wait, I think

583
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:00,760
we might be up to something wrong.

584
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:01,760
Yeah.

585
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,440
And it's a huge red flag for me.

586
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,000
It's a full stop.

587
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,920
If I'm working with a team on the radio, if I ever hear anyone say I feel good about

588
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,160
it, it's full stop face to face talk.

589
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:13,160
Why?

590
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:14,520
Because I'm a touchy field of guy.

591
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,240
I want to hug it out, but not on the job.

592
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:18,240
Sure.

593
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,120
Because we are not risking people's lives based on feelings.

594
00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:28,480
We want to see a large body of data with a justifiable process that stands up to rigor.

595
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:29,480
Okay.

596
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:37,040
So we need to have, if you and I go out riding and I say, Dave, I feel good about this, it's

597
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,360
going to be pretty hard for me to go back to your wife and tell her why you didn't come

598
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:41,360
home.

599
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:43,080
It's because I felt good about it.

600
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:44,080
Right.

601
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:45,880
Or that doesn't hold up in court as a mountain guide.

602
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:52,800
It's like, hey, what's your logical, defensible process that will hold up to a cross examination

603
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:53,800
on the witness stand?

604
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,360
Well, that's almost like where we make the joke.

605
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,240
If someone feels good about something, just ask them why three times.

606
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:00,240
Yeah.

607
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:01,240
And it'll all fall apart.

608
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:02,240
Right.

609
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:03,240
It's hilarious.

610
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,360
You're just like, hey, I'm sorry, Jeff, I don't have a shiny guides badge and I'm not an

611
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,000
internationally certified mountain guy with decades worth of experience.

612
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,560
But it says here on aspect Davy, that's going in the red zone.

613
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,160
Could you just explain to me like I'm a six year old, why we're going to go there?

614
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:18,360
Why we're going to do this?

615
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:19,360
Yeah.

616
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,440
And if you ask someone why like two or three times, usually it just all unravels.

617
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:24,440
Right.

618
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,440
And it comes down to because I'm an expert and I say so.

619
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:28,440
Okay.

620
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:33,560
So is the, you know, we joke around about even more out ski touring, we joke around about

621
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:38,280
just asking why over and over is almost a way to just so sounds funny.

622
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,880
But is that a valid tool to kind of help?

623
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,040
Socrates is a big fan of it.

624
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:45,040
And I have to.

625
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:46,040
Yeah.

626
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:52,120
And I think, you know, we've done such a deep dive in, you know, I've personally read every

627
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:57,880
single avalanche fatality in the last 11 years in the US and the patterns, they just, the

628
00:29:57,880 --> 00:29:59,600
signal stands out through the noise.

629
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,560
You see the same patterns over and over again.

630
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:09,080
And what we wanted to do with aspect avy is give your team a tool so that everyone is

631
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,360
looking at the same information.

632
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:13,640
You don't have to go off of feelings or opinions.

633
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:19,320
You can go off of objective data that doesn't care that you haven't skied powder this year.

634
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:20,320
Right.

635
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:25,280
We care that this is the driest winner and X number of years and we've got old snow layers

636
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,640
up the wazoo and it's going to be dangerous for a while.

637
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:36,280
It's just saying, Hey, these are the high risk slopes for today's avalanche forecast.

638
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,640
And you decide whether you're going to go or not.

639
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:41,440
And it's very simple framework.

640
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:46,200
Like if we have a stoplight and we see red, we know all know what that means and we act

641
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:47,200
accordingly.

642
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,560
And if we see green, we know exactly what that means.

643
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,120
But where it gets tricky.

644
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:54,800
Do I go through the yellow?

645
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,720
Do I hit the gas or the break?

646
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:57,720
Right.

647
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,120
And am I going to make it through this time or not?

648
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,400
And so there's two different things going on in our brains.

649
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,160
One is a decision.

650
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,040
If it's red, I stop.

651
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:08,280
That is a decision.

652
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,280
If it's green, I go.

653
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:11,960
That is a decision.

654
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,760
But yellow requires judgment.

655
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,240
And that's where the human factors traps.

656
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,960
They come in real hurry.

657
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:22,800
They just come stampeding it.

658
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:27,400
And usually if I'm using one human factor trap, I probably got a couple other riding

659
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:29,600
along with it.

660
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,400
And they kind of stack.

661
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:36,200
Like if you're in like a video game, it'd be like buff on, buff on, buff.

662
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:43,920
And so Coniman says explicitly says, you know, here's the reason why people use the human

663
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:45,560
factor traps.

664
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:49,560
It's because they don't have a good alternative.

665
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:55,560
They don't have a simple, fast way of making a good decision.

666
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:56,560
OK.

667
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,560
So this is, it's a fallback.

668
00:31:58,560 --> 00:31:59,560
Yeah.

669
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,560
Because there is no other alternative.

670
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:03,720
And then it gets even trickier.

671
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:09,440
So if we're at altitude, if we're skiing in Colorado, often the summits are 12,000 feet.

672
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:10,440
OK.

673
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,240
Most people are living about 5 or 6,000 feet.

674
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:14,320
Or below that.

675
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,320
Or below if you're coming from sea level.

676
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,240
So you're hypoxic.

677
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:23,960
And you've automatically lost, oh, let's just call it 30% of your IQ, your brain power.

678
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,760
And your brain only runs off a glycogen.

679
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:28,440
It doesn't really run off of fat.

680
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,120
So if I'm bonking, I can't think.

681
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:36,780
If my legs are tired, my brain is really tired because it demands a ton of energy.

682
00:32:36,780 --> 00:32:41,600
So now maybe we've lost 50% of our IQ.

683
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,160
And then you throw in powder fever and scarcity.

684
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,120
Oh my gosh, this is our one chance to go touring.

685
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,600
We're starting to draw, like, paying a really compelling picture for this.

686
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:52,600
Exactly.

687
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,120
So we've designed Aspect Abbey to be an antidote to that.

688
00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:00,000
To just say, hey, listen, it's giving you the stoplight and it says red.

689
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:04,560
So even if I'm quite depleted, maybe I didn't get a good night's sleep.

690
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:06,800
My legs are tired, so my brain is tired.

691
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,920
And I'm hypoxic because I'm up at 12,000 feet.

692
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,440
It's pretty easy to be like, oh yeah, I remember.

693
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:13,440
Red means stop.

694
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,040
Yeah, let's not do that.

695
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:16,040
Right.

696
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:17,040
Yeah.

697
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,320
So the Socratic method is super helpful of asking why from your partners.

698
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:24,000
But I can't really do that so easily with myself.

699
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:29,400
Because usually the person that I need to convince to chill out is usually myself because I'm

700
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,200
a little too excited.

701
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:39,520
And to be clear, we, you know, kind of this is a bit of a plug for the app in this episode.

702
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:40,960
A seamless product plug.

703
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:46,040
Because it is genuinely one of the first tools that helps address this.

704
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:47,040
Yep.

705
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,200
It gives you live feedback where you can say, hey, if we go there, it's going to be in

706
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:51,200
the red.

707
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:52,200
That's going to be high risk.

708
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:53,200
Yeah.

709
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:58,760
And you don't need, you know, like that's not like turning your brain off.

710
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,480
Because I feel like some people are like, oh, like blindly trust an app.

711
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,040
Which like, that's not what we're saying.

712
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:08,640
This is just giving you really clear, you know, it's not going to get hypoxic.

713
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:13,720
You know, it's just, it's similar to that's red based on this algorithm and based off

714
00:34:13,720 --> 00:34:17,600
of the snow conditions and avalanche forecast and all that stuff.

715
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:22,080
And then our live input, if we're like, hey, right, the forecast is wrong about 20% of the

716
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:28,240
time and we need to verify it and localize it for where we are right now, live in the

717
00:34:28,240 --> 00:34:29,240
snow.

718
00:34:29,240 --> 00:34:36,120
And if we're seeing these obvious clues of shooting cracks and lump thing and rapid loading,

719
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,360
we'll say, hey, it's considerable where we are.

720
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:39,360
Right.

721
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,400
And we're going to see a lot more red on the, on the map.

722
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:43,400
Yeah.

723
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:51,280
This is a really interesting topic because I guess for me, I was just sort of surprised

724
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:55,800
as I started learning about it, how applicable it is to so many things.

725
00:34:55,800 --> 00:35:01,240
And I'm someone who definitely has spent my life just taking a lot of risks, doing a lot

726
00:35:01,240 --> 00:35:02,240
of high risk stuff.

727
00:35:02,240 --> 00:35:03,240
Yeah.

728
00:35:03,240 --> 00:35:06,520
Both in like, I guess my professional life and then also just things I like to do.

729
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:07,520
Yeah.

730
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:08,520
Like, jump, jump, jump.

731
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,480
Well, but, but beyond like jumping off of cliffs and their blakes, you know, like all

732
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:13,480
that kind of stuff.

733
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:20,120
And I, I was really shocked when I started learning about this topic that I'd never been

734
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:24,920
taught it by any of my peers or coaches or anything before, or that it hadn't really

735
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:30,040
come across, you know, and this was after the paper you've been referencing came out.

736
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:34,320
I mean, you know, this information has been flowing around out there.

737
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:43,080
So I, maybe my final kind of question to you is, like, is there a reason why this isn't

738
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,680
more known or can we help people?

739
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,720
Is there a way we can help people learn about this more easily?

740
00:35:49,720 --> 00:35:54,280
I mean, we'll put a, we'll put a link to the paper that we're talking about in the show

741
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:58,520
notes for this podcast, but like, what can we do to kind of educate our friends about

742
00:35:58,520 --> 00:35:59,520
this?

743
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:01,520
Um, yeah, that's a great question.

744
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:02,520
Um,

745
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:07,120
Are there resources?

746
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:08,880
I'm not trying to tee you up in any way.

747
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:10,560
I'm genuinely asking.

748
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:17,920
It's kind of a, yeah, for me, um, you know, I had a life changing event when I got avalanched

749
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,320
in Italy in the Ortler range.

750
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:21,320
And we were really lucky.

751
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:26,320
We walked away without a scratch, but you know, we went for about 15, 1800 vertical feet

752
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,200
over three cliff bands.

753
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,200
And we ended up right on top and we were fine.

754
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:38,120
But that caused me to realize, Hey, my expert Halo, I lost it back there in that avalanche

755
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:39,120
somewhere.

756
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:40,120
It's gone.

757
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:41,120
It's gone.

758
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:42,120
I was the false master.

759
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,720
I thought I had it nailed, but I was coasting and I didn't have a really reliable decision-making

760
00:36:45,720 --> 00:36:46,920
process.

761
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:52,720
And so that sent us, sent me down this route of, Hey, there's got to be a better way to

762
00:36:52,720 --> 00:36:57,840
play poker where I can play the odds in a very conservative manner.

763
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:02,640
And so I don't have to stress about being avalanched.

764
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:10,920
And, um, so, uh, Connaman's book was, was a seminal moment for me and it kind of tied

765
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:11,920
everything together.

766
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:17,520
I'm like, this is what we're doing in the back country as an industry, as a profession

767
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:21,720
and me personally, and then my friends and then my colleagues.

768
00:37:21,720 --> 00:37:24,400
And it caused me to question everything.

769
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:30,240
So I'd say that's a great place to look is podcasts or books with Danny Connaman or

770
00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:34,400
his colleague and also Nobel Prize winner, Richard Thaler.

771
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:40,560
And we've basically incorporated a lot of their work, um, into the app, right?

772
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,800
Because we know that humans are gonna human.

773
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:48,900
So let's make it really simple to do the right thing.

774
00:37:48,900 --> 00:37:51,680
Let's give you feedback in the moment.

775
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:58,160
If you get it wrong to be like, Hey, get back on track and try to make it simple and fun.

776
00:37:58,160 --> 00:37:59,160
Right.

777
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,280
You know, try to make it enjoyable so that's not onerous.

778
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,240
So it doesn't take an hour to do your tour plan.

779
00:38:04,240 --> 00:38:06,040
You're like, Nope, we just did our tour plan.

780
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:07,040
Five minutes.

781
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,280
We've got three good looking options in the clear.

782
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,000
We're going to stay out of the red.

783
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,320
Let's go out in the field and see what conditions are like.

784
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,200
And we'll choose the one that has the best snow and the safest snow.

785
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:17,200
Yeah.

786
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,080
I mean, on our drive down here, you and I were talking, I was telling you that I think

787
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,360
something that's interesting about, right?

788
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,560
It's not even interesting.

789
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:29,120
I just find very refreshing whenever we go out or have people with us is we always have

790
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,840
like three or four different options.

791
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:37,520
And so it helps us avoid a lot of, you know, scarcity or commitment.

792
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:45,600
I mean, we're even expert Halo stuff because we'll all be experiencing the same conditions

793
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,800
and be able to make a decision like, Hey, let's go to the other spot.

794
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,920
It seems dicey, you know, like, yeah.

795
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:56,280
And I love, you know, we're going to go out here on Christmas Eve with our buddy, Nikki,

796
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,520
and he's fresh off the plane from LA.

797
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,800
And what I love is it takes the pressure off me.

798
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:07,320
If we're all using aspect Abby, because Nikki can be like, Hey guys, I just showed up.

799
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,720
It was my first day on skis this year.

800
00:39:09,720 --> 00:39:10,720
Not this year.

801
00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:11,720
Yeah.

802
00:39:11,720 --> 00:39:12,720
Very good skier.

803
00:39:12,720 --> 00:39:14,000
But he's like, Hey, I don't want to ski that line.

804
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:15,000
It's in the red.

805
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:16,000
Right.

806
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:20,560
And I can be like, Oh, thanks for checking me, Nikki, because, you know, the pilot has

807
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:24,520
a co-pilot to like, watch your back.

808
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:30,840
And that feedback that you get for your trusted friends or maybe your romantic partner who

809
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:35,760
know you really well is invaluable to grow as a human.

810
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:40,400
And for me to grow as a mountain professional, I need objective feedback.

811
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:44,320
It doesn't make, it doesn't do me any good to be in an echo chamber.

812
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:45,320
Right.

813
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:50,760
And, you know, one thing I'd like to tie in, and this is totally for the geeks out there

814
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:52,480
who are still listening.

815
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:54,480
And if you're bored at this point, I totally understand.

816
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:56,640
You're like, Hey, I'm ready to tap out and get it.

817
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:01,400
But for those diehards, what we're dealing with is, is basically a guerrilla warfare

818
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:06,440
situation where the Rand court back in the Vietnam, you mean our relationship with the

819
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:07,440
snow, you got it.

820
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:08,440
Yeah.

821
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:09,440
Okay.

822
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:14,840
It's they coined this term, this acronym, VUCA, V is for volatile.

823
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:19,440
C is for complex.

824
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,360
U is for V then you then.

825
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:23,360
Oh, sorry.

826
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:24,360
Let's back it up.

827
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,800
Let's I'm the dyslexic one, bro.

828
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:33,280
Volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous.

829
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:40,120
And that is guerrilla warfare to a T or urban warfare where things can go wrong in a hurry.

830
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:46,560
And it's a complex system, so one tiny variable change in the whole system blows up and you

831
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,120
may never have a warning.

832
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:50,520
That's very much the avalanche.

833
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:51,520
Sounds familiar.

834
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:52,760
Yeah, exactly.

835
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:57,240
So in, if you're in a VUCA situation, which if you're dealing with avalanches, that's

836
00:40:57,240 --> 00:40:58,720
what we're in.

837
00:40:58,720 --> 00:41:03,000
Like no matter what, no matter what, that's just how it is.

838
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:04,000
Okay.

839
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,480
Like if you're an avalanche train, it's a VUCA situation.

840
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:10,080
If you've got snow on the ground, I think that's a really, a really, a really, a really

841
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:14,680
useful way of looking at this probably.

842
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:15,680
Yeah.

843
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:20,040
It's guerrilla warfare and you're not going to see it coming a lot of times and there's

844
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,600
going to be an ambush and it could be quite deadly.

845
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:29,880
So Kahneman's approach is like, listen, when you're in a VUCA scenario, unless you have

846
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:38,360
a really clear, robust red light, green light system that's low energy, go, no, go, it's

847
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:43,720
going to be really hard to avoid the heuristic traps, the human factor traps.

848
00:41:43,720 --> 00:41:45,480
We are just going to lean on them.

849
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:46,640
They feel good.

850
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:47,640
They're fast.

851
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:48,640
They sound good.

852
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:49,640
They're low energy.

853
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:50,640
They sound truthy.

854
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:51,640
Yeah.

855
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:54,880
They sound truthy and at the moment, they're hard to push back against.

856
00:41:54,880 --> 00:42:01,120
Well, and the rest of the group is probably falling into the trap too.

857
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:02,120
Exactly.

858
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:09,280
And I can't emphasize this enough how important it is to have a very clear, go, no, go system

859
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,800
that's objective.

860
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:16,760
And I know we're going a deep dive into this and people are like, Rand Corp, what the hell

861
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:18,800
is that got to do with avalanches?

862
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,360
But like at this point, I don't even care because I'm so passionate about this and this

863
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:23,920
is what saved lives.

864
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:29,640
This is the human factor that gets injected because if the avalanche danger is sketchy,

865
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,200
it's not a problem until humans enter the equation.

866
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:33,200
Right.

867
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,400
If avalanche slides, it doesn't matter unless someone's stuck in it.

868
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:40,320
If the avalanche slides in the forest and no one's there to hear it, it's okay.

869
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,320
The forecast center will still know that though.

870
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:43,480
Yeah, they'll sleep it out.

871
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:45,120
They're very good at what they do.

872
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:46,120
Yeah.

873
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:47,120
All right.

874
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:51,400
So I feel like we've covered this pretty well and I appreciate this conversation and

875
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:53,240
offering some of the tools.

876
00:42:53,240 --> 00:42:58,920
What are maybe some of the last thoughts you want to leave people listening to this with

877
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:00,920
steps to go forward?

878
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:05,960
For one for me would be, hey, if you're getting the bad vibe, stand on the top of something,

879
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:06,960
speak up.

880
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:08,720
Your intuition's a one-way street.

881
00:43:08,720 --> 00:43:13,160
And if you're getting that gut feeling and it's not a positive one, you should speak

882
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:20,680
up and I would say the rest of the people should listen to that person because that's

883
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:22,040
something else going on.

884
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:24,120
It's not like woo-woo-voodoo stuff.

885
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:29,520
It's just, I think we've all experienced a gut feeling that we pushed away and then

886
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:30,520
something went wrong.

887
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:35,880
Do you have any other, maybe just like one or two quick pieces of wisdom to leave people

888
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:36,880
with before we wrap up?

889
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:37,880
Yeah.

890
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,360
So have an objective system that gives you feedback immediately.

891
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,400
And so far in the avalanche world, I've only seen that aspect.

892
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:44,400
Gabby does have.

893
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:45,400
We have one app.

894
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:46,400
Yep.

895
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:47,400
Okay.

896
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:51,920
And if you don't have that, you're going to have to be really smart and really tuned

897
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:59,520
in and ask why a lot and be ready to be unlikeable.

898
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:02,600
We'll put a whole bunch of resources in the liner notes for the podcast.

899
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:03,600
Sure.

900
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:08,640
And there's a great Malcolm Gladwell podcast on this about follow the data.

901
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:12,480
Oh, is this the Spock one that you had me listen to like a year ago?

902
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:13,480
Yeah.

903
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:14,480
That one is good.

904
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:15,480
It's called pull the goalie.

905
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:16,480
Yeah.

906
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:17,480
So in hockey, yeah.

907
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:22,400
They normally pull the goalie when they're down by a goal or two or three with about

908
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:24,000
a minute, minute and a half to go.

909
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:25,000
Sure.

910
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:27,840
Because that is the socially acceptable thing for the coach to do.

911
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:32,520
But the numbers say the coach should pull it at five minutes or maybe even 10 minutes.

912
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:37,000
And in fact, if you're the underdog going against a championship caliber team, you should

913
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,160
probably pull the goalie in the first period.

914
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:40,160
The whole game.

915
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:44,160
Because this is your only chance and you're probably going to fail miserably and lose

916
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:49,760
12 to zip and the social cost for the coach, like if you're in Canada, they're going to

917
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,160
burn the Coliseum down.

918
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:57,120
They're like, you pulled the goalie at 10 minutes left of the game.

919
00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:02,760
Now we lost six to zero instead of three to zero and it's humiliating.

920
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:06,960
So you need to be prepared to do the right thing.

921
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:10,440
And the right thing is defined by what the data says is a smart play.

922
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,560
So getting back into how this relates to avalanche stuff.

923
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:18,160
You need to be able to stand your ground and tell your friends, we're not skiing this.

924
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,840
This is our no go terrain for the day.

925
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:27,280
We said that in our tour plan and you're going to have to be super clever and just keep asking

926
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:32,480
them why and hopes to coax them around.

927
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:36,560
But I think it'd be a way more persuasive tool to show them your phone or if they've

928
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,600
got it on their own phone and say, hey, that's in the red.

929
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:41,720
Why are we going base jumping?

930
00:45:41,720 --> 00:45:47,240
Or at very least that gives you an easy out of being like, I'm not doing that because

931
00:45:47,240 --> 00:45:51,920
here's why this is because I'm not and you can always bribe your friends be like, tell

932
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,720
you what, I'm like, I don't want to do this.

933
00:45:54,720 --> 00:46:00,120
I think this is a bad idea all by all of our post-ride beers when we get down safely.

934
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:05,520
I haven't tried that one before, but yeah, I think it's great for me as a check as a

935
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:10,760
professional and you know, you could speak truth to power.

936
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:12,600
Yeah, let's admit it.

937
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:16,240
There's a power differential when we go out touring and most people are going to defer

938
00:46:16,240 --> 00:46:22,680
to the mountain guide or the senior person in the group or the person who talks the loudest

939
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:24,840
and is the baddest rider in the group.

940
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:25,840
Check the most backflips.

941
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:27,760
Yeah, exactly.

942
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:31,960
And this is a way of leveling the playing field and saying, hey, you know, I don't have

943
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:34,040
the years of experience that you do.

944
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:39,840
However, I don't have all those experiences of getting avalanche either.

945
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,840
And this is what the data says.

946
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:49,040
And as a professional, if I'm working with another guide, I make it super clear, especially

947
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:51,800
if they're an aspirant that means like assistant guide.

948
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,120
I'm like, hey, listen, your job is to watch my back.

949
00:46:55,120 --> 00:47:00,360
And Dave, if I miss anything, you need to bring it up to check you to check me.

950
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:03,880
And if it's in front of the clients, so be it.

951
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:10,480
My ego has no place in our decision making process or our safety process.

952
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:16,040
And if I'm working in a team that's so dysfunctional that someone's ego is so fragile, they can't

953
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:17,600
have their logic questioned.

954
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:19,960
I don't want to be part of that.

955
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:21,800
Probably shouldn't be a mountain guide either.

956
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:22,800
Exactly.

957
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:23,800
Oh, they're pre-medanans.

958
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:24,800
They're delicate lotus flowers.

959
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:25,800
I know, man.

960
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:28,560
I hang out with them almost every day.

961
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:33,040
Well, sweet, man.

962
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:34,040
Thank you for having this conversation.

963
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:38,040
I feel like this is, I've even learned more about this.

964
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:40,080
Just having this back and forth with you.

965
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:47,040
Do you have any kind of last word before we wrap this thing up?

966
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:48,040
Cool.

967
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:49,040
Cut.

968
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:50,040
Yeah.

969
00:47:50,040 --> 00:48:00,600
If you don't have your own system worked out to be super clear and super simple and

970
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:02,120
easy to do.

971
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:04,800
We're going to use the image doctor traps.

972
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:10,760
And then your only pushback from that is to be really unlikeable and to just keep asking

973
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:12,280
why.

974
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:17,080
And that is a really difficult social cost to bear.

975
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:24,560
And I've done it before and it's ruined friendships, but I was like, well, it's better than dying.

976
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:28,400
So I would say dive into these, check out the podcast and the liner notes because they're

977
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:33,600
actually really enjoyable and what I use for avalanche courses where they think, oh, we're

978
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:35,120
going to spend a lot of time in snow pits.

979
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:37,480
And I'm like, the answer is not in the snow pit.

980
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:41,000
The answer is between your psychological approach.

981
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:45,640
And they're actually really fun and interesting thought experiments to play.

982
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:49,320
And it's fun to grow and learn.

983
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:51,120
And the feedback is pretty much universal.

984
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:52,640
I'm like, oh, that was so cool.

985
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:53,960
I learned a lot.

986
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:54,960
I agree.

987
00:48:54,960 --> 00:49:04,480
I think that having read and listened to those resources, going out, the more you learn about

988
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:08,280
something, it adds layers of complexity to stuff, obviously.

989
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,280
Yeah, nuance, curiosity.

990
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:16,320
Yeah, I feel like it's given me a new view on when we go out and tour, like beyond just

991
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:18,360
kind of the standard.

992
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:22,440
So it blew my doors off when I read or heard about these.

993
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:27,920
And I think it's often the ah-ha phenomenon of when someone labels it, you're like, yes,

994
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,000
I just didn't have the words for that.

995
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:31,000
That's what that thing is.

996
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:35,360
Yes, I've experienced that, but I didn't know how to talk about it with my partners.

997
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:38,960
And I was so frustrated and helpless at the time.

998
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:44,160
And now I can label it and identify it, hopefully, in the field and spot it coming.

999
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:46,800
Well, hell yeah, man.

1000
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:48,360
Yeah.

1001
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:49,360
That's all I got.

1002
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:50,360
All right.

1003
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:51,360
Great.

1004
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:52,360
Thanks for listening.

1005
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:53,360
I'll see you in the next backcountry.

1006
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:54,360
Peace.

1007
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:57,840
Thank you so much for listening to All Aspects.

1008
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:00,440
If you like what we're doing here, please leave a rating and review.

1009
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:03,200
It really is the best way to help others find the show.

1010
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:06,360
Thanks again to our business daddy, Aspect Davi, for making this show possible.

1011
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:11,000
To learn more about how Aspect Davi is making avalanche safety simple, go to aspectdavi.com.

1012
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:15,320
If you want to use this powerful new tool on your next backcountry adventure, simply

1013
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:19,320
download the app from the app store and enjoy 30 days free on them.

1014
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:22,800
Lastly, special thanks to Ice Lab for helping us produce this show.

1015
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,600
You guys rock and we couldn't do without you.

1016
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:51,640
Thanks again for listening and we'll see you in the backcountry.