1
00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:18,240
Good afternoon, dear viewers.
Welcome to the seventh episode

2
00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,960
of New Magazine's podcast entitled
Coal phase out in the Western Balkans.

3
00:00:23,080 --> 00:00:25,600
I am Damir Dizdarevic and
I will be your host today.

4
00:00:26,240 --> 00:00:29,680
I will host today Jelena Stojkovic
Terzic, Assistant Professor of the

5
00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:32,080
Faculty of Electrical Engineering
of the Belgrade University,

6
00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:34,760
who works at the Department
of Electrical Energy Systems.

7
00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,480
We will hear and learn from her
more about the concept of 5D

8
00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,240
Energy Transition, which implies
decarbonization, diversification,

9
00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:47,240
decentralization, digitalization and
democratization, as well as the role

10
00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,520
of prosumer in this concept.
Additionally, she will share with

11
00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,200
us the necessary innovations
in conducting energy transition.

12
00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:58,600
The recording of this podcast is
supported by Open Society Foundations

13
00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,040
for Western Balkans, and it is
available on our YouTube Channel.

14
00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,320
Moreover, it is available on other
podcast platforms such as Spotify,

15
00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,240
Deezer and Apple Podcast.
Finally, we are active on

16
00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,080
social networks, on Instagram and
TikTok, so feel free to follow us.

17
00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:16,400
I hope that you'll enjoy
our today's episode.

18
00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:34,200
Good afternoon, Jelena,
welcome to NM podcast.

19
00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,240
Please, introduce yourself
briefly to our audience.

20
00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:40,920
First of all, thank you, Damir,
for inviting me to this podcast.

21
00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:45,400
My name is Jelena Stojkovic Terzic,
Assistant Professor of the Faculty of

22
00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,280
Electrical Engineering in Belgrade,
Department of Electrical Energy

23
00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:52,400
Systems, which is the sphere
of my main interest.

24
00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,120
As for narrower field of expertise,
I deal with the integration of

25
00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:59,960
renewable energy sources, especially
in the context of their effects on

26
00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:02,880
the system, frequency
regulation, flexibility.

27
00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:08,200
In addition, my research includes
consumption management,

28
00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:12,280
and the impact of electric cars
on the power system.

29
00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,480
Thank you very much.
So, for a start of this episode,

30
00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:19,920
I would like to begin with a question:
What is energy transition and what

31
00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,600
does it entail? It is not just a
transition to renewable energy sources

32
00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:26,880
and coal phase out,
as this podcast is called,

33
00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,560
but it entails a series of activities
and measures, and it is popularly

34
00:02:30,920 --> 00:02:34,360
called 5D energy transition,
what does it mean at all?

35
00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:42,120
When we talk about energy transition,
we see it through the 5D prism,

36
00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:47,840
the first one is decarbonization.
It is the basic goal of the energy

37
00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:52,440
transition, to switch from
power plants to fossil fuels,

38
00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,800
to the renewable energy sources,
i.e. to reduce CO2 emissions,

39
00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:00,520
and consequently the impact
on climate change.

40
00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,600
So, the first D from 5D of energy
transition refers to decarbonization.

41
00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:11,840
The second D refers to diversification
which implies using diverse energy

42
00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:18,760
sources, not to depend on one
energy type, but to diverse sources,

43
00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,480
such as Sun energy, wind energy,
nuclear power plants maybe in future,

44
00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:28,240
I mean in our country, hydroenergetic
potential, biomass, because

45
00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,520
it is very important from
the aspect of energy security.

46
00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:36,440
In this way, when we have several
energy sources, if something goes

47
00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:42,320
wrong, we can always rely on
some alternative energy source.

48
00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,480
So, the second D refers to
diversification, the third D

49
00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:51,080
refers to decentralization, this is
very important concept within

50
00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,400
energy transition, because we are
moving from a centralized system,

51
00:03:55,960 --> 00:04:01,440
based on small numbers of big
power plants, this was conventional

52
00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:08,400
system, we had small number of big
thermal power plant and hydroelectric

53
00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:13,120
power plant, and now we move towards
large number of power plants that are

54
00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:17,200
present everywhere in the system,
which is useful for the system itself.

55
00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:24,240
Now, we have power plants that
are much closer to consumption,

56
00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,400
that is, we have production
at the point of consumption.

57
00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:32,480
Therefore we reduce the need to
transmit energy from long distances.

58
00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:35,760
We reduce grid load,
as well as reduce losses.

59
00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,680
So, there are other benefits
from this as well.

60
00:04:39,280 --> 00:04:43,000
This is also very important concept.
Apart from decentralization,

61
00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:50,520
we also have digitalization, which
is also rather important, given that

62
00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:54,120
now within the electrical energy
system, we have the use of

63
00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:57,760
information and communication
technologies, which enable us

64
00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,160
to have much more data on the
grid, strengthening observability,

65
00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:06,200
in the same time countervailability,
to use management algorithms smarter,

66
00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,840
in order to make
our grid smarter.

67
00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:14,280
This makes digitalization such
a vital aspect of energy transition.

68
00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:20,600
Last but not least in 5D transition,
there's energy democratization.

69
00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:26,440
To somehow bring citizens closer to
becoming active participants in the

70
00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,760
energy system, and to include them in
the energy issues, in its production.

71
00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:36,920
So, we see that energy transition
is a rather comprehensive concept,

72
00:05:38,280 --> 00:05:41,280
and that, apart from decarbonization
and digitalization as technical and

73
00:05:41,840 --> 00:05:44,680
technological elements, we also
have democratization, together

74
00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,200
with security aspect, which is taken
care of through diversification.

75
00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:52,560
Given all said, can you explain to
me the basic difference between

76
00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:57,160
the current energy system that
you've mentioned as a small number

77
00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:02,600
of centralized units, distributing
energy through the grid,

78
00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:08,040
compared to the future energy system
that we should establish in future

79
00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:10,880
according to current projections
sometime around 2050.

80
00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,080
To what extant is it decentralized,
how we come to provide that,

81
00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:15,440
what is the role of digitalization
and democratization in it?

82
00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:21,160
We can say what are our expectations.
-Yes, our future projections.

83
00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,720
Well, from that centralized approach
we are going to a decentralized one.

84
00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,640
This is already evident in Europe
and now it seems evident here.

85
00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:36,960
Less than four years ago, through
legal regulations, we have for

86
00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,240
the first time enabled citizens
to become their own energy heroes

87
00:06:41,840 --> 00:06:43,920
and to have the opportunity to
become producers and consumers,

88
00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:46,920
that is to say, prosumers.
In addition to being end consumers,

89
00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:51,920
they can also produce electricity.
Now, with the new amendments to

90
00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:59,280
the law, we have gone a step further,
defining energy communities of citizens

91
00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:04,520
which enable individuals, but also
companies and entrepreneurs,

92
00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,920
local self-managements and public
institutions to join forces

93
00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:15,040
in the production and use of energy.
So, from this aspect, we have moved

94
00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:21,160
from centralized system with small
numbers of big power plants,

95
00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,520
to a huge number of small power plants
which are much closer to consumers

96
00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:33,320
or end customers. It is also
very important to mention that

97
00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:40,560
traditional power system was such
that consumers were fully passive.

98
00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,960
When we regard power system
from a technical aspect,

99
00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:49,200
we have production on one hand,
and the consumption on the other.

100
00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,040
We have a network that links
production and consumption.

101
00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,040
In conventional systems,
traditional power systems,

102
00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:05,880
consumer was fully passive.
With new future energy systems,

103
00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:11,600
consumer will become much
more active, that is certain.

104
00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:17,640
Consumer can take part on the market,
adapting it to their needs,

105
00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:20,880
and to the conditions
within the system.

106
00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:26,160
I would like to explain another
concept, which is also important.

107
00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:30,080
In power system, what seems
to be vital is that production and

108
00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,920
consumption must be
equal at all times.

109
00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:39,160
In the conventional energy system,
the old one, we had consumer who

110
00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:45,120
behaved as he pleased. However,
in order to establish a balance

111
00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,160
between production and consumption,
we have changed the production.

112
00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,480
We could do that because we had
controllable production units,

113
00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:55,720
thermal power plants
and hydropower plants.

114
00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:01,400
Now, with as many renewalbe energy
sources, which are uncontrollable,

115
00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:05,160
unmanageable or very difficult to
manage, those are variable energy

116
00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,760
sources, we cannot establish the
balance between production and

117
00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,880
consumption so easily, at least
on the production side.

118
00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,840
So, we are now moving
to the consumption side,

119
00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,360
so, by managing consumption,
we will actually manage

120
00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,080
to balance production
and consumption at all times.

121
00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:29,360
It is the consumption that will be
much more active in the process.

122
00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,040
It's great that you mentioned
consumption, in what ways

123
00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:35,800
can we manage energy consumption,
in that ideal sense?

124
00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:42,880
What does it refer to? Whether
electricity should be used more

125
00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:48,680
intensively, for example for heating
water in certain hours, anything else?

126
00:09:50,560 --> 00:09:53,120
I must say that consumption
management is nothing new.

127
00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:55,440
We are already conducting
consumption management.

128
00:09:56,120 --> 00:10:00,040
How we do that? For example,
in Serbia, for a decade now,

129
00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:06,160
we do it through a two-tariff system.
This system was introduced in Serbia

130
00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:11,840
by observing consumption diagram.
We noticed that during the day,

131
00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,360
we had a higher consumption, while
we had lower consumption overnight.

132
00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,680
In such conventional system, with
thermal power plants in effect,

133
00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,760
and hydropower plants, such a
consumption profile, since we always

134
00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:30,760
have to have the levels of production
and consumption equalized at all times

135
00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:33,800
requires that we sometimes turn off
thermal power plants, during night,

136
00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:36,840
because we simply didn't have the
consumption to use that electricity.

137
00:10:37,680 --> 00:10:39,560
Or to reduce it to a minimum.

138
00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:46,400
The very process of shutting down
and restarting thermal power plant

139
00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:51,040
used to be technically challenging,
but also in terms of time.

140
00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,800
Because some thermal power plants
have to be out of operation for

141
00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:58,440
a few hours in order
to be back in operation.

142
00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,320
There is a time required to be in
operation and out of operation,

143
00:11:01,680 --> 00:11:03,560
and financial aspect is
also very demanding.

144
00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:08,520
Then, it was more profitable for the
system not to put those thermal

145
00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:13,120
power plants out of operation during
the night, but to leave them on

146
00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,520
the grid, so that they produce
some electrical energy.

147
00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:18,840
However, in order to produce, there
should be consumption, which must

148
00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:24,120
match it. What was designed
was not designed by Serbia,

149
00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:28,280
it exists in the world, and it is
to create a two-tariff system,

150
00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:33,000
where the price of electricity in
night's second tariff will be low,

151
00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:39,560
with the intention of motivating
consumers to use more electricity

152
00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:45,840
during the night, and thus save money
as far as electricity bill is concerned

153
00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,360
while on the other hand,
the system also makes profit,

154
00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,520
because it doesn't have to shut down
and restart the thermal power plants

155
00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,440
which is time and finance-wise
very challenging.

156
00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,320
Indirectly, through those tariff
mechanisms, they managed

157
00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:05,880
consumption, by motivating
the consumers.

158
00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,960
Those tariff mechanisms can be used
even now, with the fact that this

159
00:12:11,560 --> 00:12:15,800
two-tariff system, created for a
conventional concept, can't really

160
00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:23,600
work now, now the availability of
electricity is based on how much

161
00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,920
solar and wind we have, if we are
talking about an electric energy system

162
00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:32,360
in which the degree of integration of
renewable energy sources is very high.

163
00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,480
For instance, in Germany or
in Denmark, the availability of

164
00:12:37,560 --> 00:12:43,720
electricity depends on availability
of wind and sun and then a tariff

165
00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:48,600
system should be created
that can serve this purpose.

166
00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,480
So, the prices should be higher
when there is no sun or wind,

167
00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,480
and vice versa, the prices should be
lowered when there is sun or wind.

168
00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:59,480
In this way, people will be prompted
to use energy when it is available.

169
00:12:59,920 --> 00:13:03,760
This is and indirect approach.
There's also a direct approach.

170
00:13:04,680 --> 00:13:08,400
To create appropriate algorithms
so that people in the household

171
00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:16,280
of some smart house to turn
on appropriate machines,

172
00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:21,200
not on their own, to monitor the price
on the market, but to leave it to

173
00:13:21,680 --> 00:13:26,880
algorithm to do that for them,
for some devices, it is not so

174
00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,600
practical, for example, if I want to
watch television right now, I'll do

175
00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,840
that rightaway, but should I turn on
washing machine at that moment,

176
00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:37,880
or a dishwasher, as algorithm can
decide for you, depending on

177
00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:44,520
when it is convenient, so that I as a
consumer will use electricity when

178
00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:50,400
it's price is lowered, while the state
will achieve profit as well.

179
00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:56,400
The balance between production and
consumption will be established.

180
00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:59,200
You've explained this issue
greatly.

181
00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:05,920
My next question is what is the role
of democratization or the role of

182
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:10,640
prosumers and energetic communities,
as people used to call them.

183
00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:18,200
Those are two different concepts,
so what is profitable for me personally,

184
00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:24,200
if I end up as prosumer, or that
I will join the energy cooperative,

185
00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:26,880
or some energy community
with other citizens...

186
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:33,040
When we talk about benefits,
financial benefit is vital.

187
00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,560
The most represented is
the financial benefit. -Surely...

188
00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:40,320
When someone assumes the role
of prosumer, or as defined within

189
00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,520
our regulations as buyer, producer,
the first and utmost motivation is to

190
00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:50,160
reduce electricity bill as part of
energy will come from solar panels,

191
00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:57,440
and just small part or none
from the grid, so the bill for

192
00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,200
electricity has lowered and that
investment can be repaid

193
00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:06,760
after a few years. What seems to be
challenging, not only in Serbia but

194
00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,480
all over the region, is the fact that
we have subsidized electricity bills.

195
00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:16,920
So, I'm not saying it's low, but
I mentioned that it's subsidized,

196
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:24,280
and in that way, there is no
motivation to invest in those systems

197
00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,280
as they request some financial
means at the beginning.

198
00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:34,040
It pays off the most to households
that have a large consumption.

199
00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:38,800
It surely pays off to the households
that transfer to red zone.

200
00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,480
They can pay of investment
in a few years time.

201
00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,080
However, average households,
which are the most widespread,

202
00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,000
which consume some
350 kilowatt hours per month,

203
00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,760
maybe somewhat less, 330 kw
per month, let it be 350 kw,

204
00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:01,280
in order to set up solar panel
that fits its needs,

205
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,040
the investment repayment
period is over ten years.

206
00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:10,320
This is rather long period of time,
so it lacks financial motivation...

207
00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,360
For larger consumers, especially
for the industry, there is high

208
00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:21,160
motivation, and it is basically
financial, but it doesn't have

209
00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:26,160
to be only economic, it can be
ecological, as in this way,

210
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:31,680
we reduce the coal usage in
the process of energy production,

211
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,720
we reduce the emission of harmful
gases, which is of utmost importance,

212
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:42,600
as in Serbia, thermal power plants
are large emitters of harmful gases,

213
00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:47,600
not only CO2, but also particles
that harm our health.

214
00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,280
However, the main problem
are individual fire pits.

215
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,760
How much would it cost for an
average household to meet their

216
00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:01,960
needs, not full 350 kw hours
per month, but in percentage.

217
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,240
How much will this capital
investment cost for a start?

218
00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:09,200
As for subsidizes, they exist in
Serbia, for a couple of years.

219
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,200
Municipalities in cooperation with
the ministry allocate and cover

220
00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,280
part of the costs, it differs from
municipality to municipality,

221
00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:23,600
in the range of 50 percent, and
for energy-impaired households,

222
00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:28,680
a larger amount of investment
can be covered by non-returnable

223
00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:34,800
grants, i.e. a subsidy, so there is
a state support in that aspect.

224
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:40,760
Of course, we need to get those
subsidies, maybe some municipalities

225
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,360
don't have them, but it's
not like they don't exist.

226
00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,720
There is an awareness that financial
assistance should be provided

227
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,200
in order to motivate
people to invest.

228
00:17:53,680 --> 00:18:01,440
As far as I know, currently most
contractors calculate the price of

229
00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:09,760
the system in the range of  2,000,
fixed cost, plus  500 per kilowatt.

230
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:16,920
which means that if you want
to have a 3 kilowatt system,

231
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,320
which would be sufficient for
an average household,

232
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,160
that needs to be recalculated,
I don't know it by heart,

233
00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,080
you would need an initial
investment of around  3,500.

234
00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,160
Something like that,
around  3,500.

235
00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:34,200
Of course, this cost can change
within a six month period.

236
00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:39,600
It is a fact, though, that the cost
of solar techonology is decreasing,

237
00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:44,160
for the last decade, it was
downsized for some 90 percent.

238
00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:51,360
I often use this as an example,
when I was on studies, which

239
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,640
happened some 15 years ago,
we learned that a kilowatt hour

240
00:18:55,080 --> 00:19:01,160
produced from a solar power plant is
expensive and that it is not so cheap

241
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:07,920
in terms of costs, as, for example,
from a thermal power plant.

242
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,160
Whereas now...
-Now a kilowatt hour in a solar

243
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:16,760
power plant is by far the cheapest.
The price of technology has dropped.

244
00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,440
It is expected to fall further,
technology is improving,

245
00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,280
the efficiency of those panels
is being improved,

246
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,080
less material is needed
for the panels,

247
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,560
so certainly the technology
is advancing, the same goes

248
00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:36,560
for the batteries,
it will all get better.

249
00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:39,560
Great, let's stay on this field
of democratization for now,

250
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:41,680
and then we'll proceed
to the issue of batteries.

251
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:46,480
What about energy cooperatives
and communities? What are benefits?

252
00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:51,400
Let's assume that I want to become
member of the cooperative,

253
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,200
or to establish with my friends
one energy cooperative.

254
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,400
What would be the benefits and
what does it mean and represent?

255
00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,320
I don't know if cooperatives are
defined in our legal regulations,

256
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,360
but I know that communities
are defined by law now.

257
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:13,120
But community and cooperative differ.
However, community is a very nice

258
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:18,720
mechanism, which enables citizen
participation in the production of

259
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:23,720
renewable energy, and it is vital
especially for people who are

260
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:29,560
limited in a way, and it is hard
for them to take part in this.

261
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,520
They could be limited due to financial
means, they cannot invest as much as

262
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:40,280
they should, they have limited funds,
still they want to take part in energy

263
00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,200
transition, by investing
some of their own funds.

264
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,920
Or they rent an apartment, so they
cannot install on their own premises.

265
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:51,680
The residential communities are very
problematic in our country as far as

266
00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:55,160
consumers/producers are concerned,
presently, we have only four of them,

267
00:20:55,600 --> 00:21:04,000
and they are not fully operational,
so this concept allows those who

268
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:08,280
would not be able to be on their own
consumers or producers,

269
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:14,680
to get together, so someone would
give roof, investment, and others

270
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:20,960
necessary expertise, and to harvest
the fruits and benefits together.

271
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,720
So, it's about expansion and
joint participation of people.

272
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,360
I wonder what's the difference between
consumer/producer and active consumer

273
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,120
because, if I'm not mistaken, that
concept was also introduced for

274
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:39,600
the first time in our country by
amending the law on energy.

275
00:21:40,120 --> 00:21:42,160
Now I don't know how well it is
defined and worked out,

276
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,240
but what does the concept of
an active consumer represent

277
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,800
and what is the key difference between
active consumer vs producer consumer.

278
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:53,160
Active consumer is a new legal
institute that has been introduced,

279
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:59,440
how it will function further will be
more precisely defined through bylaws

280
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,800
and certain regulations, but what
seems to be crucial, an active

281
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:08,440
consumer compared to consumer
producer can have larger capacities,

282
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,440
as according to current regulations,
consumer producer could be one

283
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:19,640
consuming up to 10,8 kw, for
a household, up to 400 kw

284
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,920
for the industry, this limit doesn't
exist for active consumers,

285
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:32,720
so they get more opportunities, and
in the same time more committments.

286
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:43,160
They are pulling each other,
and active consumers can...

287
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,040
Those are end consumers as well,
can join individually or in a group,

288
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,960
and participate in the production or
storage of electricity, they can sell

289
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:58,040
surplus energy on the market, through
aggregators or some other entities.

290
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,400
They can place it on the market
and thus make profit.

291
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,760
On the other hand, consumer
producer cannot make profit,

292
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,360
when we talk about households
and net metering concept,

293
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:17,520
consumer producer can only
have savings, without income.

294
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,760
In the legal sense as well?
-Yes, that's right.

295
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:27,720
As for consumer producer in the
household, net metering concept

296
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:34,120
implies a calculation period from
April 1 till March 31, 2026,

297
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:42,560
we give excess energy we produce
and that we do not use during

298
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,640
that accounting period
to the supplier for free.

299
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,040
So, we do not have any financial
compensation if we produce more

300
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:54,000
energy than we consume.
-Fine, we straightened this out.

301
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,880
Now, as for the very appearance of
the energy system in 2050,

302
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:06,920
to what extent this decentralization,
democratization and decarbonization,

303
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,360
integration of renewable and variable
energy sources to a large extent,

304
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:15,000
can affect the stability of the grid,
we just hear that these are some

305
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,240
of the biggest and crucial criticisms
of the whole energy transition concept,

306
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,160
people say we don't have stability,
these are variable sources,

307
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:27,080
we cannot do without base load
energy, our systems are aligned

308
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:31,200
like this, in this way... So, what
is the solution for balancing

309
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,400
the intermittency or variability
of renewable energy sources?

310
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,720
The solution lies in increase
of flexibility, by all means...

311
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,680
This is the challenge the integration
of renewable energy sources brings.

312
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:54,400
When it comes to stability frequency,
what seems to be the problem with

313
00:24:55,120 --> 00:24:58,880
renewable energy sources,
not problem, maybe challenge...

314
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,520
Sorry to interrupt you, let's explain
to our audience what stability

315
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,560
frequency means. -Of course,
let's start with frequency first.

316
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:10,080
Frequency is one indicator,
one quantity in the system,

317
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:16,560
which shows how production and
consumption in the system are balanced.

318
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:22,600
Frequency in our system amounts
to 50 Hz, and when it is 50 Hertz,

319
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:27,240
then production and consumption
are balanced.

320
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:33,120
How can that value be changed?
If production exceeds consumption,

321
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:39,320
at some point, then, the frequency
exceeds 50 Hz, but if consumption

322
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,680
exceeds production, then the
frequency is lower than 50 Hz.

323
00:25:44,360 --> 00:25:48,560
What seems to be vital for the
system, and it is the duty of the

324
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,920
transmission system operator, is to
keep frequency within very narrow

325
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,760
limits, meaning that frequency cannot
fall to 40 Hz, it is 50 Hz, plus or

326
00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:03,960
minus 200 MHz. If it is not in this
scope, frequency breakdown may occur

327
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,760
and other problems such as
disconnection of consumers,

328
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,560
even to the collapse of the system,
temporary or complete.

329
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,560
So, it is very important that we have
balanced production and consumption

330
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,560
in the system and we know it
by the frequency.

331
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,600
When something's wrong,
the frequency changes.

332
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,640
One of the resources that we used
in regulating frequency were

333
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:34,240
production units, synchronous
generators which introduced

334
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,440
inertia into the system, now,
you'll ask what's inertia?

335
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:43,000
Let's look at it this way. I'm not sure
if the comparison will be suitable.

336
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,120
Conventional system that had
small number of large power plants,

337
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:53,360
which had synchronous generators
directly connected to the system,

338
00:26:54,360 --> 00:26:59,640
can be regarded as a large truck,
a large truck that's on the road.

339
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,640
System which has a large number
of renewable energy sources,

340
00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:08,440
those are not directly connected
to the grid but through power

341
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:14,760
electronics devices, so they do not
contribute at all or they contribute

342
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,440
very little to the inertia of
the system.

343
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,920
That means that when we transform
coal power plants with our renewable

344
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,920
power plants, out of this large
massive truck, we make a lot

345
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,440
smaller vehicle.
-Fiat 500, that's a deal.

346
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,320
This is great. When we are in
the normal operating mode,

347
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:40,000
we can reach point B from
point A with Fiat 500, as well.

348
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,200
Under the normal working conditions,
we can easily do that,

349
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,840
both the truck and small vehicle
will reach its destination.

350
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,360
The problem arises when
there is a disturbance or disruption.

351
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,760
The disturbance might
be power plant outage,

352
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,600
a smaller defect, sudden
consumption switch...

353
00:28:01,120 --> 00:28:04,680
This is the same as if you put
a large rock on the road.

354
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:14,840
Truck will probably go through that
rock, maybe it will shake a little,

355
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,720
but it will continue its path,
meaning that it is very robust,

356
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:26,480
it is inert, whereas a small
car can end up in a ditch.

357
00:28:28,120 --> 00:28:34,680
This is the issue of big and small
inertia, it is very important as

358
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:40,920
inertia defines to what extent
the system is robust,

359
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,880
and how it can endure
when it comes to disruption.

360
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,240
I don't know whether my
comparison was useful...

361
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:55,120
I think it is great comparison,
now I am also interested in

362
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:57,880
specific ways to reach balance,
are those batteries,

363
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,400
or hydroaccumulations, irreversible
pumps, what kind of technologies

364
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,360
we have on our disposal and
how far have we come with this?

365
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,760
Some 10-15 years ago, people were
quite skeptical regarding batteries,

366
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,760
and its technology, but today
we have electric vehicles that

367
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,960
run on batteries, we will have solar
power plant, a self-balanced one,

368
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,520
on batteries in the next couple of
years, so how far did we go with

369
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,840
this and what kind of tecniques and
technologies exist in order to reduce

370
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:35,240
variability of the electic system?
-I can say that we work on that.

371
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,200
We had made quite a breakthrough.
Integration of renewable resources

372
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,360
brings challenges, as they are
unpredicted and variable,

373
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:52,040
and among solutions is to try to
strengthen the flexibility of system.

374
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,720
So that it becomes more adaptive
to all the changes that might occur.

375
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,000
Earlier, changes were coming only
on the part of the consumption,

376
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,680
and now we have changes on the part
of the production, they can be larger,

377
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,560
so the system has to be more
flexible, and more adaptable.

378
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,440
There are several ways to strengthen
the flexibility of the system,

379
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:19,320
one is energy storage, we are
mentioning batteries and they

380
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,280
will be more and more present,
because the price of technology

381
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:28,720
is expected to fall, and if we follow
trends for the development of other

382
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,840
technologies, we have to say that
batteries are not only solution for

383
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:39,320
storage, we can use diverse
mechanic storages, flywheels,

384
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,640
gravity over the warehouse,
reversible hydroelectric power plants,

385
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,840
this is a rather significant resource
and it is particularly interesting.

386
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:54,680
Flexibility also has an exact
temporal decomposition,

387
00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:00,760
it means that some storage devices
will be more suitable for shorter

388
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,000
intervals, and others will be for
some longer intervals,

389
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,400
depending on what we need.
Batteries are great for some

390
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:13,840
shorter intervals, when the changes
are in smaller time intervals,

391
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:19,000
other devices for other circumstances.
This is one of the mechanisms,

392
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:24,400
but there are others, as well.
There are several mechanisms

393
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:30,000
for increasing flexibility, grid
modernization is one way

394
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:34,840
to increase flexibility, we can then
have better observability and

395
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,040
controllability, to manage the
system more successfully,

396
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,680
including the usage of advanced
algorithms, control algorithms.

397
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,080
There are several ways.

398
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,280
Excellent, and what would
we use in the long term?

399
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:54,680
If we need to store energy
for longer periods of time?

400
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:03,600
Yes, as for storage potentials,
we can ask for how long?

401
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,840
We can always store more energy
but the costs are higher.

402
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:16,120
As for capacities, power plants
can be of significant use,

403
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:25,320
we talk a lot about base energy,
that storage cannot provide.

404
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,000
If we have an energy deficit
for a longer period of time,

405
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,440
because that would mean that we have
a storage with a much larger capacity,

406
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:42,280
which is not economically justified,
and this is one of the solutions.

407
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,160
Now, what would be base capacities,
nuclear power plant or small modular

408
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:53,720
power plants, or something else,
maybe some new technology,

409
00:32:54,320 --> 00:33:05,120
such as hydrogen, perhaps linking
of several sectors, power, heat, gas.

410
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:10,040
This could also contribute to certain
level of flexibility and reserves,

411
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:19,160
it is all a subject of study and it
should all be carefully selected.

412
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,600
Where are we when it comes to the
development of hydrogen technology,

413
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:28,040
this is always very intriguing issue,
also controversial a bit, in a sense,

414
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:32,120
as there are diverse scientific
articles and expert opinions

415
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,880
on this subject, starting from
hydrogen volume, to its flammable

416
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:40,440
nature, chemical composition and the
performance itself as an energy source.

417
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,080
Where are we and in what sectors
it will be used mostly, maybe on the

418
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,920
energy sector especially, or in
transportation field, where are we?

419
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,880
And whether it has
a likely future soon?

420
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,560
I believe that this answer is not
clear-cut either. -Of course...

421
00:33:57,760 --> 00:33:59,960
Yes, but we have made
a lot of progress.

422
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,720
Hydrogen is a promising technology,
but what's promising and has potential

423
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,560
it doesn't mean that it will actually
be established as genuinely valuable

424
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,600
to have achieved a real value
in couple of years time.

425
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:17,520
Still, today this storage type
conversions mean that when

426
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:27,400
we have hydrogen on our disposal,
and then we use it in order to

427
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:32,400
produce electricity in accordance
with our needs, but I believe that

428
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:37,720
still this isn't profitable neither
in economic or technologic sense.

429
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,720
It doesn't mean that it won't be
in some five to ten years...

430
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:47,200
In the power industry, I'm not sure,
to what extent it could contribute,

431
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:54,160
while in some other industries,
it surely can, in transport,

432
00:34:55,640 --> 00:35:00,600
in industries that use some other
fuels, I believe it could contribute

433
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:06,640
better in the immediate future...
-These are more intensive industries.

434
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:12,520
Compared to electrical engineering,
power system, through this process,

435
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:20,240
to obtain hydrogen by electrolysis
and then to have processes that

436
00:35:20,720 --> 00:35:28,080
allow hydrogen to produce electricity,
I think it's still a bit far from us.

437
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:34,080
It's good to say this because of the
viewers, technical solutions are not

438
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:38,440
ideal either, two degrees in
innovation so to speak...

439
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,920
First, technical technology,
price, that is, economic aspect,

440
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,560
because some technologies can work
but it is not economically profitable

441
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:51,920
for usage, it is not profitable and
it is not implemented at all,

442
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,960
such was the case with batteries.
As for solar panels, they exist

443
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:59,200
for some 50 years, but they turn
profitable for the last decade,

444
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:02,760
or for the last 15 or 20 years.
As for the innovations in the

445
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,600
production, you've mentioned that
the price of solar panels keeps

446
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,560
dropping but far less materials
has been used in the process.

447
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:16,200
What is the case with wind turbines?
-It is similar, somewhat slower.

448
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,400
I believe that for the last decade,
the price had decreased for some

449
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,760
80 percent which is significant,
we are talking about efficiency

450
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:32,680
here, now bigger turbines have
been made, and then economies

451
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:37,120
of scale are always present,
if something is bigger that means

452
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:44,760
that the cost per kw/h is smaller,
there we experienced progress.

453
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:53,920
Fine. My next question would be
what do you see as key obstacles

454
00:36:54,720 --> 00:36:59,200
for energy transition in the future
time interval, not to limit the time,

455
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,120
without ending up with the question
where you see yourself in five year

456
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,800
time, but what do you regard
as crucial challenges there?

457
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:12,400
Well, I am an engineer, I regard
it from technical point of view,

458
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:19,920
and as far as technology is concerned,
I don't regard it as limiting factor.

459
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,880
So, I believe that engineers will do
their job... -We hope so...

460
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:31,720
Energy transition is not only
technology transition, but it is

461
00:37:32,240 --> 00:37:35,080
a broader concept,
this is social transition.

462
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,720
So, we cannot just regard
that stong technical aspect,

463
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:43,080
but show a broader image,
political, geopolitical, legal,

464
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:48,440
regulatory, economic, and
finally, social aspect as well.

465
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:55,000
So, as for challenges, I would say
that for Serbia and for our region

466
00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:01,840
in general, economic aspect
presents quite a big challenge.

467
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:08,600
Energy transition costs a lot,
financial means should be provided.

468
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:13,240
This financing is limited for us,
compared to the EU members,

469
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:19,520
as they have access to funds
that we lack, so financing that

470
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:27,160
defines bankability of some projects
can pose a challenge,

471
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:36,240
and of course it couldn't be realized
without political and regulatory side,

472
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,320
I think that Serbia made smart
moves during last year,

473
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,440
we adopted strategic documents, as
well as energy development strategy,

474
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:50,600
we adopted integrated national
energy climate plan, and it is

475
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,920
very important, because by doing so,
we have defined our goals.

476
00:38:55,600 --> 00:39:00,240
As for the road to take to achieve
those goals, we will agree on that,

477
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:05,040
we'll see how we should fulfill
our goals, but this is the first step.

478
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,640
It is also significant to point
this out, but we should not

479
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:16,400
disregard that social aspect
as to how to urge the citizens

480
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:21,960
to take part in that transition,
how they can contribute to be

481
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:27,000
the main actors of it, because in
the end, they should have

482
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,960
the greatest benefits from it.
-I like this last sentence of yours,

483
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,760
I believe it is perfect for
some kind of conclusion.

484
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:40,120
What would you say to our audience,
to include themselves into energy

485
00:39:40,720 --> 00:39:43,800
transition, to get involved and
take up things into their hands.

486
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:53,160
Among other things, yes, but
not everything is up to the citizens,

487
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:59,440
they need support from the system.
I would like to point out that energy

488
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:08,840
transition is not so connected with
technologies, with technical aspect

489
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:16,360
but it is social transition, and
social aspect currently has

490
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:24,200
the biggest benefits, while the role
of the system is to try to urge

491
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:31,160
people to be actively involved and to
become the bearers of that transition.

492
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:37,920
The citizens should get engaged,
but the system also needs

493
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:42,080
to make it as easy as possible.
-Both top-down and bottom-up.

494
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,360
Thank you very much for being my
guest. -Thank you for inviting me.

495
00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:58,080
Produced by New Magazine

496
00:40:58,800 --> 00:40:59,920
Supported by Open Society
Foundations for Western Balkans