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Greetings, dear viewers!
Welcome to the first episode

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of the New Magazine podcast entitled
Coal Phase Out in the Western Balkans.

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My name is Damir Dizdarevic and
I will be your host for the next four

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episodes, guiding you through
this topic with my interlocutors.

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We will deal with the issue of urgent
coal phase out in the Western Balkan,

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socio-economic consequences
as well as consequences for

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the energy security of the region.
Moreover, we will try to present and

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offer certain solution which can
contribute to this both historical

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and civilizational endeavor.

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Today, I will host Ognjan Pantic,
Programme Manager within the

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Energy, Climate and Environment
area at the Belgrade Open School.

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We will discuss with him the urgency
of coal phase out in the Western

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Balkans, as well as the impact
that caol has on people's health,

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we will cover rule of law, as well
as the violation of human rights.

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Furthermore, we will try to present
whether regional cooperation can be

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one of the ways
to resolve this issue.

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New Magazine podcast was supported
by the Open Society Fund of Albania.

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You can follow this podcast on
New Magazine You Tube Channel,

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while we are available on other
podcast platforms such as Spotify,

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Deezer and Apple podcast.
Moreover, we are active on

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social networks, so you can follow
us on Instagram and on TikTok.

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I hope you'll enjoy
today's episode.

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NEW MAGAZINE
PODCAST

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Produced by New Magazine, with the
support of Open Society Foundations

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Good afternoon, Ognjan.
First of all, I would like to thank

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you for accepting our invitation
to be our first guest in the first

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episode of this podcast.
I believe that, given

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your extensive experience within
civil sector in the field of climate

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change and coal phase-out, you
can offer a very good insight into

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this issue to the people
that find it interesting.

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You can offer detailed explanation
to those who are not so familiar

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with this issue,
to further intrigue them.

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I would appreciate if you could
introduce yourself to our audience.

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Damir, thank you for inviting me.
I am please to be able to talk

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and discuss this topic in this new
format of the New Magazine podcast.

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My name is Ognjan Pantic,
I am engaged in the organization

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Belgrade Open School, within
the area of climate change,

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enviroment protection,
for the last eight years.

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I had the opportunity to do some
research and learn on this issue,

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to discuss it with people from
various institutions, activists,

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as well as with the representatives
of the scientific expert community.

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Every year, interest for this topic
keeps getting higher, as people

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recognize it as relevant on
everyday intuitive level.

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The last twelve months in Serbia are
the hottest since the measurement

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is being performed, so I trust that
this zenith of summer is a good

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opportunity to discuss climate change
and learn something new about it,

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so I am glad that we are here,
in the right place, at the right time.

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Thank you for introducing yourself,
your rich experience will offer

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great insight into this subject,
so let's start with our main topic.

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Would you please explain to me
and our audience what this phrase

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coal phase-out really means,
what does it mean for us and

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for the Western Balkans, why is
it so important and urgent to do?

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Coal phase-out means a change in
the way our energy sector functions,

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it means abandoning our
primary source of energy.

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Energy mix of the entire region,
including Serbia, primarily depends

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on the coal for the production
of electricity and thermal energy,

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and it is represented in different
percentage on the regional level.

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I believe that Serbia is a good
benchmark for the whole region

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when we consider statistics.
We depend on the coal from

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which we produce electricity
up to seventy percent,

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so over two-thirds of electricity
is obtained from this resource.

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It is a resource with
a limited lifespan.

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All fossil fuels are in a way limited,
in terms of how many reserves

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we have on our disposal. It is
an energy source that practically

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in all segments of its use, from
exploitation through processing

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to combustion, it creates harmful
consequences for the environment

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on the local level, but through
the emission of harmful gases

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with the greenhouse effect, it
harms climate change as well,

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which is also a global issue.
Coal is used in our power plants

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which are several decades old,
without being properly maintained,

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and the energy resource
itself is of poor quality.

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Throughout the region, we have
coal of better or poorer quality.

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Mostly, at least when it comes to
Serbia, we are talking about lignite,

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low quality coal,
lower calorific value,

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it is of worse quality every year,
so we are talking about an energy

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resource which is limited, harmful,
which should be phased out, with

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our energy system switched to some
cleaner renewable energy sources.

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This is quite understandable to me,
but I have an additional question.

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The situation in the whole region
is quite bad, in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

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in Montenegro, we have a lot
of outdated power systems,

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which have served their time.
But why is the issue of coal

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phase-out so significant to the
region of the Western Balkans?

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Primarily in the context
of global emissions...

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We are just a tiny drop in the sea
when it comes to carbon dioxide

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emission, so what will make a
difference if we cut the emissions?

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We will disrupt the use of coal,
we will cut on our emissions,

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but will it help or contribute
to overall emissions worldwide?

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It surely will, we are part of
a global agreement, global

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effort to preserve life on the planet
to the greatest extent possible.

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We certainly contribute to a lesser
extent to that global challenge

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compared to some other countries
and community of countries.

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But, just like we have suffered the
consequences and are suffering

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the consequences of climate change,
due to emissions caused by some

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other countries, there are also
consequences that we create

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locally, to the detriment of
ourselves, on regional level,

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but also to our environment,
both closer and further.

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The damage from climate change
is etimated to billions of euros,

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this is one of the most interesting
arguments that often prevail,

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that this energy transition,
i.e.coal phase-out and

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switching to other energy
sources, is quite expensive.

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We also pay for our decision
to continue using coal,

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we pay that price in changed climate
conditions, in the damage caused

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by climate changes, through droughts
and floods, and ruined soil quality,

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to the impaired human health,
days people spent on sick leaves,

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of premature deaths, those human
loses can also be quantified.

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The cost is much higher
than people might think.

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In 2014, we had an obvious example
of what are climate changes...

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The changes came, and ironically,
knocked on our doors by flooding

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the Kolubara mine, knocked
on the door of the main culprit

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of climate changes, so it is a fact
that we less contribute to those

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emissions, that it largely depends
on some other countries, but all

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the same, the emissions produced
and the pollution that occurs here

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have negative impact both on our
region and on our close environment.

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In Serbia alone, we are faced with
10-15 thousands of premature deaths

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on annual basis, due to coal
exploitation, even on the level

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of European Union, those emissions
do not need passport, they expand

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freely and in an uncontrolled manner,
bringing 3.000 deaths on EU level,

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annually, only as result of pollution
originating from this region.

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I like to use one metaphor
when it comes to climate changes.

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If people are not interested in what
happens in stratosphere where those

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emissions come from, than they should
be interested in the atmosphere.

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Thermal power plants are a major
cause of ambient air pollution,

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the air that all of us inhale, then
there is damaged soil quality,

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due to high concentration of harmful
gases and a chain of consequences

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of the emissions of those harmful
gases that coal mining causes,

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so those are the reasons why we
have to deal with coal phase-out.

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Apart from this purely economic
reasons, that we will also touch

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upon later, other guests will speak
about it in this podcast series.

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We are not talking only
about a contribution,

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about a great civilizational
agreement and effort to

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preserve life on the planet Earth,
which is a great thing and it is

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significant in itself, but we talk
about solving the causes of pollution

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as well, which is present on the
local level, and we face it daily.

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We are wasting days, months, years,
and we face with premature deaths,

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by being exposed to that pollution,
in the air and in the soil and water.

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The imperative to abandon
coal certainly exists,

0:10:38.480,0:10:42.240
it is also a global asset and
a local necessity in the same time.

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Thank you, Ognjan, on your detailed
response, those statistical data are

0:10:47.320,0:10:51.240
being quantified, the damage is
estimated in the year 2000 to

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some eight billion euros,
only for the Republic of Serbia,

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and according to the latest report
of World Bank, we talk about two

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million people who were exposed to
those changed climate conditions.

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There was also an enormous
increase in forest fires, floods

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and other consequences. The other
estimate says that we need some

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32 million euros to make it right.
We'll see how things will go.

0:11:19.240,0:11:21.960
Let's set this aside for now, but
as you mentioned air pollution

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and as you deal with air quality
in your professional engagement,

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can you tell me what causes this
pollution if it's linked with thermal

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power plants, why do we need to
abandon using coal in that sense,

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in the sector of energy production,
in order to improve the quality of

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living and public health?

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Simply, the composition of that
energy source, that fuel, along

0:11:50.840,0:11:55.960
with the method of its combustion,
is such that in the production process

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of producing primarily electricity
and thermal energy from coal burning

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cause emission of harmful
substances into the air.

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Greenhouse gases are also emitted
that go into the higher layers of

0:12:10.760,0:12:14.360
atmosphere, which practically
create a heat wrap around

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the planet and do not allow that
excess solar energy to go further,

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instead it remains and
heats the planet slowly.

0:12:25.040,0:12:28.120
In the ambient air itself,
in that atmospheric layer,

0:12:29.240,0:12:34.280
high concentrations of sulfur
dioxide are created, nitrogen oxides,

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these are some primary
harmful substances

0:12:38.240,0:12:40.520
that are produced by
burning lignite in Serbia.

0:12:41.680,0:12:45.240
They also serve as a secondary source
of these famous suspended particles

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about which people gain more
knowledge, according to my opinion.

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The emissions that are created in
this way are retained in the air,

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but they also have a harmful
effect on the quality of the soil,

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and the fact is that the sources of
emissions that are present in Serbia

0:13:02.800,0:13:05.800
in the energy sector are estimated
as one of the largest in the world.

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On one of the lists, thermal power
plant Nikola Tesla was recognized

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as one of the ten largest emitters of
sulfur dioxide on the entire planet.

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Although I always like to point out
that it is important to deal with this

0:13:21.200,0:13:25.240
issue because of the health of our
citizens, because of legal regulations

0:13:26.240,0:13:33.040
that are actually being violated,
people's right to healthy environment

0:13:33.840,0:13:36.840
is endangered in the first place.
I'm under impression that those

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global comparisons sound impressive.
We have had more than enough data

0:13:45.080,0:13:48.040
for years now, originating
from public institutions.

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I also deal with that civil
measurement process.

0:13:51.680,0:13:56.520
Anyway, official institutions in their
reports offer sufficient data

0:13:56.880,0:14:00.920
which show that all those pollution
parameters are seriously exceeded

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and that the energy sector certainly
plays a significant role in it, but

0:14:06.920,0:14:09.040
that didn't attract much attention
until we placed it in another context

0:14:09.520,0:14:11.880
by saying that Belgrade is
more polluted than Beijing,

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or Belgrade and Valjevo are in
top five most polluted cities in

0:14:15.720,0:14:19.240
the world on a specific day.
When we got to global context,

0:14:20.160,0:14:22.560
we discussed earlier whether
we are just a drop in the sea,

0:14:22.960,0:14:26.200
even on the global level,
we are in the leading positions.

0:14:26.840,0:14:29.880
TENT was assessed as one of ten
largest emitters of sulfur dioxide...

0:14:31.000,0:14:34.400
As we said earlier, when it comes
to the number of premature deaths,

0:14:34.960,0:14:38.360
Serbia was the leader in the EU
with number of deaths on 100.000

0:14:38.920,0:14:41.400
citizens one of those years...
So, we like to brag...

0:14:41.720,0:14:45.720
Yes, we like to be leaders in some
rankings but these are not the lists

0:14:46.160,0:14:49.520
we would like to be among leaders.
It is particularly bad that we are

0:14:50.080,0:14:56.360
on top of such a list, so this is the
role of coal in polluting air on the

0:14:56.720,0:15:01.200
local level, its composition, along
with the techonology used for its

0:15:01.840,0:15:07.480
exploitation, for the production of
energy, so that we have problem

0:15:08.400,0:15:13.720
in all layers of atmosphere.
-So, as you said...

0:15:14.960,0:15:18.280
Until we place it in our context,
until we make it public,

0:15:18.720,0:15:21.800
very often it does not touch them,
the same goes for the whole region.

0:15:22.440,0:15:27.080
The same goes for Sarajevo and
Pljevlja, it is always compared to

0:15:27.560,0:15:31.200
some global cities, so we say that
we are more polluted than some x

0:15:31.920,0:15:37.120
town, do you think it violates
some kind of human rights and

0:15:37.600,0:15:40.880
what is your standpoint on this.
Namely, do we have certain rules

0:15:41.440,0:15:44.160
and regulations within the region,
some kind of plan, anything,

0:15:44.520,0:15:46.880
which can help us contain
and limit that emission?

0:15:47.160,0:15:49.000
Do we have that and
is it being respected?

0:15:49.600,0:15:56.680
The truth is that our domestic
legal system contains norms

0:15:57.120,0:16:02.040
that relate to people's right to
healthy environment, this is being

0:16:02.440,0:16:06.440
vouched for in our Constitution.
We have different laws and by-laws

0:16:06.960,0:16:13.680
which define the quality of
the air that we should inhale

0:16:14.680,0:16:19.960
and we are faced with the fact
that this is not so for years now.

0:16:20.800,0:16:25.520
We have exactly defined limit values,
I don't want to go into percents and

0:16:25.920,0:16:28.840
digits, but it is clearly listed,
certain polluting substance is

0:16:29.160,0:16:35.960
allowed in such and such volume
be present in the air, on hourly

0:16:36.480,0:16:39.320
or daily basis, including
on an annual level...

0:16:40.160,0:16:44.240
We have situation that on almost all
places in Serbia where measurement

0:16:44.640,0:16:47.640
is being properly performed,
the digits exceed the limits.

0:16:48.120,0:16:53.320
Therefore, right of Serbian citizens
to breathe clean air was not respected

0:16:53.840,0:16:58.400
as the concetration of those gases,
as defined, it was taken from the

0:16:58.880,0:17:04.560
framework of the European Union,
but now those norms are being

0:17:04.960,0:17:07.800
revised so that they could be
even more restrictive, as it is

0:17:08.120,0:17:11.200
proved that being exposed to certain
harmful substances, that Serbian

0:17:11.800,0:17:15.360
citizens are largely exposed to,
such as suspended particles.

0:17:16.080,0:17:20.320
There are no limit of the presence
of those particles in the air that are

0:17:20.760,0:17:24.360
being considered safe. Now
those norms are being revised,

0:17:24.560,0:17:28.280
they are getting tougher and tougher.
We have practically violated domestic

0:17:28.800,0:17:32.720
regulations and standards
of air quality, constantly.

0:17:33.680,0:17:36.080
Moreover, countries in
the region are signatories

0:17:37.000,0:17:39.360
of the Treaty establishing
the Energy Community.

0:17:40.360,0:17:45.360
It's a practical step-by-step method
and on one separated track, when

0:17:45.800,0:17:48.280
we have in mind EU accession
of the region as a whole,

0:17:48.560,0:17:52.400
energy sector in the region has to
be strengthened and prepare for

0:17:52.880,0:17:57.480
the integration of the European
Union's energy system.

0:17:58.000,0:18:02.800
This is the way to gradually prepare
for adjusting and implement norms

0:18:03.320,0:18:06.520
from European Union
law in the field of energy.

0:18:06.960,0:18:10.520
This contract is not a new thing,
it's been valid since 2005,

0:18:12.160,0:18:16.600
more than a decade ago,
Serbia has committed to certain

0:18:17.120,0:18:23.600
rules, and up to recently, we've done
nothing to fulfill this obligation.

0:18:25.720,0:18:33.200
Thermal power plants in the region
should disrupt the operations by now.

0:18:33.960,0:18:37.280
This is thermal plant in Montenegro
'Pljevlja', as for Serbia, those are

0:18:37.760,0:18:42.920
thermal plants Kolubara and Morava.
Exact number of working hours are

0:18:44.080,0:18:47.640
strictly defined, our representatives
had signed those papers, making

0:18:47.960,0:18:50.560
such committments, and afterwards
just keep working as usual.

0:18:51.160,0:18:56.080
If we consider it from the legal point
of view, we violated international

0:18:57.080,0:19:01.400
agreement which is valid
within our legal system.

0:19:02.880,0:19:07.400
Apart from that, for a part of our
energy plants, we have committed

0:19:07.720,0:19:11.400
ourselves to reduce emissions
gradually, by 2027.

0:19:12.000,0:19:17.480
This should be a ten year period,
starting from 2018, ending with 2027.

0:19:18.440,0:19:23.840
We are now in 2024, our emissions
are on the same level, although we

0:19:24.280,0:19:27.920
had passed half through to the period
that we had to drastically reduce it.

0:19:28.400,0:19:32.640
If we sign a paper, saying that Serbia
committed itself in 2023 to certain

0:19:33.240,0:19:37.840
extent of harmful
emissions, of that sulfur that

0:19:38.320,0:19:40.160
we have mentioned earlier,
those emissions are currently

0:19:40.400,0:19:43.680
seven times higher than predicted.
Some plants have switched on certain

0:19:44.200,0:19:49.560
mechanisms for reduction of emissions,
but we grossly violated regulations.

0:19:50.120,0:19:55.200
This is our committment not only
towards the EU and Energy Community,

0:19:55.640,0:19:57.640
this is an obligation towards
the citizens of Serbia.

0:19:58.480,0:20:01.920
Local regulations have been breached,
health of the population in the region

0:20:02.320,0:20:07.320
has been endangered, and practically
we are in the situation that from the

0:20:07.680,0:20:11.520
perspective of the rule of law,
guaranteeing the right of people

0:20:12.040,0:20:15.960
to a clean environment
has been also violated.

0:20:17.240,0:20:23.440
This has its first epilogues now,
in front of judical institutions,

0:20:23.840,0:20:28.960
but when we talk about environment,
it is not just a sort of ideal,

0:20:31.120,0:20:37.480
it is prescribed in our legal system,
and we should look at it that way.

0:20:39.760,0:20:44.000
So, if I get it right, implementation
of European legislation, including

0:20:44.640,0:20:49.840
transposition in the first place,
represents a kind of moving target

0:20:50.560,0:20:52.960
that we are chasing now.
You would say that's true.

0:20:55.920,0:21:00.280
Crucial thing is actually that those
laws and legal regulations that we

0:21:00.680,0:21:03.640
need to adjust to are good, but
that we need to implement them

0:21:04.080,0:21:08.600
for our own sake, according to
my and your opinion, at least.

0:21:09.200,0:21:09.960
That's right.

0:21:11.480,0:21:18.600
When you mentioned adherence
to EU legislation, and precisely,

0:21:19.000,0:21:21.240
Energy Community, do you know
whether there's any dispute

0:21:21.840,0:21:26.640
pertaining to breaking through
those deadlines in the region?

0:21:28.120,0:21:30.720
I have already mentioned Thermal
Plant 'Pljevlja' in Montenegro,

0:21:31.160,0:21:34.320
it should disrupt its operations
couple of years ago, but it simply

0:21:34.840,0:21:39.920
continued its operations. There are
other power plants in the region,

0:21:40.440,0:21:45.400
there are actually attempts to
expand their facilities, to open

0:21:45.800,0:21:52.520
up new facilities, we have two plants
in Serbia which broke closing deadline

0:21:53.120,0:21:57.840
and we have several others that
break the limits regarding emissions.

0:21:59.000,0:22:06.440
In this sense, we are, de facto, in
breach in front of those institutions

0:22:06.960,0:22:12.280
and in front of the citizens
of the countries in the region

0:22:12.760,0:22:17.640
which are thus deprived of their
right to have clean environment.

0:22:18.600,0:22:24.640
So, there is several disputes, soon
there'll be a revision of the contract

0:22:25.160,0:22:29.760
on establishing Energy Community,
but the fact remains that there are

0:22:30.240,0:22:34.560
different breaches and violations
that which then become exception,

0:22:35.040,0:22:38.760
and then it turns into a rule.
So, there is a problem with

0:22:39.280,0:22:44.920
compliance with the provisions
that were taken over by

0:22:45.440,0:22:50.320
the decision makers on
behalf of those countries.

0:22:51.000,0:22:52.720
So, it's not an exception
that confirms the rule,

0:22:53.040,0:22:55.000
but that changes it and
makes a new rule instead.

0:22:55.320,0:22:56.960
An exception that becomes
the rule, that's right.

0:22:58.520,0:23:01.520
I am interested in the overall
statistics in the whole region.

0:23:03.320,0:23:07.520
Western Balkans exceeds those
envisaged limits for the emissions

0:23:08.040,0:23:12.880
of sulfur dioxide for some 5.6 times
according to official statistics of

0:23:13.320,0:23:18.040
Bankwatch. What I find interesting
is the fact that the topic of

0:23:18.600,0:23:21.440
desulfurization plant construction
is being mentioned.

0:23:21.840,0:23:25.600
Can you tell me more on that,
is it worth trying?

0:23:26.720,0:23:29.640
Can we reduce sulfur dioxide
emissions that way, along with

0:23:30.000,0:23:32.200
trying to modernize
our energy sector and

0:23:32.880,0:23:36.840
maybe extend the life of those
thermal power plants a little bit?

0:23:37.120,0:23:40.240
Does this make any sense,
are those investment useful,

0:23:40.800,0:23:46.920
or is that wasted money?
-In Serbia, for instance,

0:23:47.320,0:23:50.040
when we consider desulfurization
plants, we have already wasted

0:23:50.440,0:23:54.320
certain funds, because we were
granted loans for some power plants

0:23:54.720,0:24:00.200
such as Kostolac and TENT,
both from China and Japan,

0:24:01.120,0:24:05.240
it was a while ago, and since then,
those funds were not implemented,

0:24:05.880,0:24:09.200
and then only on penalties for
the loans that were not realized,

0:24:09.600,0:24:12.560
we paid, it seems to me,
over 5 million euros.

0:24:13.120,0:24:15.760
Only because those granted funds
were not used appropriatelly.

0:24:16.560,0:24:19.760
It is true that when you have those
facilities, the emission of harmful

0:24:20.680,0:24:27.080
substances that go to the atmosphere
are reduced, but we were simply late

0:24:28.000,0:24:31.520
with constructing those facilities,
their construction was very tough,

0:24:32.720,0:24:35.440
because legislative regulations
were not respected in terms of

0:24:35.880,0:24:39.200
all necessary steps and
procedures in accordance to

0:24:39.760,0:24:43.080
the Law on planning and construction,
environment protection, the ways in

0:24:43.600,0:24:47.320
which those facilities should be built
were not observed almost at all,

0:24:48.480,0:24:53.520
but the fact is that those facilities
are a huge energy consumers.

0:24:54.400,0:24:58.440
So what you gain in one place,
you lose in another.

0:24:59.240,0:25:01.720
If the facility operates,
the emission of sulfur is lower,

0:25:02.840,0:25:06.840
but then you spend so much energy,
and with its overconsumption

0:25:07.720,0:25:11.480
you contribute to emission
of greenhouse gases.

0:25:12.160,0:25:17.280
So, what you gain on one part,
as damage control, you cause

0:25:17.760,0:25:21.440
certain consequences
on some other place.

0:25:23.120,0:25:27.880
There is lots of discussion that
there is some maneuvering room

0:25:28.840,0:25:33.040
that could make those thermal power
plants that use coal to restrict them

0:25:34.040,0:25:40.080
somehow, to make them neutral
when it comes to the climate,

0:25:40.920,0:25:43.960
but they could be climate neutral
only in case of their disruption.

0:25:45.520,0:25:51.520
So, we won't gain much in repairing
something which is already worn-out,

0:25:53.440,0:25:57.440
but turn to some other source of
energy, instead of investing into

0:25:57.920,0:26:02.760
something that cannot last
for a longer period of time.

0:26:05.040,0:26:09.760
So, we reduce emissions of sulfur,
but there's more carbon dioxide...

0:26:10.960,0:26:11.920
That's right.
-Obviously.

0:26:12.840,0:26:16.760
You have mentioned the rule of law
several times in this discussion.

0:26:17.880,0:26:20.760
You said that we violated the laws
that we have brought, as well as

0:26:21.200,0:26:23.600
international legal regulations
that we have accepted in the

0:26:23.920,0:26:30.000
Parliament in ratification procedure.
I was wondering what is wider

0:26:30.560,0:26:33.640
influence of that rule of law, given
that according to the latest report

0:26:34.120,0:26:38.320
of the World Bank, Western Balkans
region needs some 32 billion euros

0:26:39.400,0:26:45.280
to carry out coal phase-out
completely or decarbonization,

0:26:45.920,0:26:52.160
to reach a kind of zero emission
of carbon dioxide, and according

0:26:52.680,0:26:56.880
to some other estimates, the funds
needed amount to 15 billion euros,

0:26:58.080,0:27:01.360
but this is still a huge sum that we
need, how this violation of rule of

0:27:01.960,0:27:05.560
law influences for example
investments from the private sector?

0:27:07.640,0:27:14.960
We cannot carry out energy transition
on our own, that's for sure.

0:27:17.000,0:27:20.320
Some 10 billion euros that are
necessary as an investment

0:27:22.320,0:27:32.240
present something we should consider.
As a good and responsible host,

0:27:35.280,0:27:40.280
what potential investor needs
is some predictability, certainty.

0:27:41.840,0:27:47.440
They think carefully with
whom they will do business,

0:27:47.800,0:27:51.840
where they will invest, rule of law,
compliance with the contract

0:27:53.640,0:27:58.920
present something that vouch
for certainty, legal security,

0:27:59.560,0:28:04.800
good business environment,
so in any context whatsoever,

0:28:05.640,0:28:08.920
and here we're talking about
energy policy, there's someone

0:28:09.400,0:28:13.680
willing to invest in the renewable
energy sources within this sector,

0:28:15.280,0:28:23.200
and on the other hand, they see
that here power plants are based

0:28:24.080,0:28:29.000
on fossil fuels, which has
a kind of privileged status,

0:28:29.360,0:28:31.360
or is circumvented in the strict
application of norms,

0:28:32.000,0:28:37.680
this is certainly not a good
signal... On several levels...

0:28:39.360,0:28:44.400
When we talk about the compliance,
and the policies that are not being

0:28:45.000,0:28:48.840
implemented, although planned,
I am under impression that this

0:28:49.200,0:28:53.080
energy sector remains as
the elephant in the room.

0:28:54.360,0:28:58.080
Climate policy hasn't even existed
for a long period of time, and now

0:28:58.560,0:29:01.440
when we have it, we cannot
say that we lack it,

0:29:02.600,0:29:04.960
as if it is being led on
two separate tracks.

0:29:05.320,0:29:08.040
Here, we will import renewable
energy sources, but let's leave

0:29:08.640,0:29:12.280
the therman energy system intact
for as long as possible.

0:29:13.640,0:29:18.640
Thus, we cannot have a policy
of decarbonization and energy

0:29:19.160,0:29:25.200
transition if we totally ignore
the urgency of defining definite

0:29:25.760,0:29:28.680
date for coal phase-out process,
and introducing specific measures

0:29:29.160,0:29:32.040
for taking care of that, but only
you introduce slowly renewable

0:29:32.400,0:29:35.480
energy sources, but you remain
on the same track when thermal

0:29:36.200,0:29:39.800
power plants are concerned,
doing nothing on that matter.

0:29:40.360,0:29:46.360
In that way you favor one or more
actors on that side of the spectrum,

0:29:48.480,0:29:53.040
you violate regulations, and endanger
health of the citizens along the way,

0:29:53.320,0:29:55.680
you simply do not send a good
message, you don't leave the

0:29:56.120,0:30:00.320
impression of a favorable environment
for the investment in this field.

0:30:01.160,0:30:04.000
It can be said that in this way
we cut the branch on which we sit,

0:30:04.320,0:30:06.480
that we not only breach our own
legislation, but we also violate

0:30:06.880,0:30:09.760
the rule of law, that is to say, the
basic principles of the functional

0:30:10.280,0:30:16.640
society, thus depriving ourselves from
the investments that we really need.

0:30:18.240,0:30:24.560
When we discuss the investments, how
much European Union can do for us?

0:30:25.320,0:30:30.400
Maybe EU can assist with certain
funds, as we desperately need help.

0:30:31.600,0:30:35.480
EU has Growth Plan incentivises for
the Western Balkans, amounting to

0:30:36.200,0:30:40.360
six billion dollars, for diverse
sectors, of course, and for all

0:30:40.680,0:30:45.160
countries, there are other types of
aid, such as pre-accession funds,

0:30:45.800,0:30:51.720
so, to what extent EU can help us
to get rid of coal once for all?

0:30:53.720,0:30:59.000
EU assistance is crucial, and their
guidance on this path is of utmost

0:30:59.680,0:31:06.320
importance for our region.
This area is of interest to the EU,

0:31:06.840,0:31:09.840
as figuratively speaking,
we are in Europe's backyard,

0:31:10.200,0:31:12.880
all states in the region are either
full members or candidates for

0:31:13.320,0:31:16.640
EU membership in
the process of accession.

0:31:19.240,0:31:23.800
Europe would benefit from reducing
pollution originating from this region

0:31:24.520,0:31:28.640
as those premature deaths that
we mentioned, caused by pollution

0:31:29.120,0:31:31.120
coming from this region,
would be eliminated.

0:31:31.800,0:31:37.040
A couple of billions, I assume...
-Yes, financially, in terms of costs,

0:31:37.800,0:31:46.720
lost lives. So, it's important to try
to reduce pollution coming from here.

0:31:47.960,0:31:56.320
Every impulse for some positive change
in terms of environmental protection

0:31:56.800,0:32:00.000
and climate change, having in mind
the whole region, including Serbia.

0:32:01.160,0:32:06.280
I am under impression that this
positive impulse didn't come from

0:32:06.800,0:32:09.280
Nemanjina Street, from the
headquarters of our institutions,

0:32:09.840,0:32:14.520
but either from the citizens, or from
Brussels, figuratively speaking,

0:32:14.880,0:32:19.120
through the accession process
of the whole region to the EU.

0:32:21.280,0:32:24.880
It is about a community of states
that has high standards,

0:32:26.600,0:32:29.760
but respecting and implementing
those standards de facto results

0:32:30.240,0:32:34.360
in a better quality of life. This is
something we should strive for...

0:32:35.160,0:32:38.280
Practically to the transformation
and progress that is good for us.

0:32:39.760,0:32:46.600
EU offers candidate states lots of
money through pre-accession funds,

0:32:49.920,0:32:53.560
Environment, energy and climate
change are gaining more importance.

0:32:54.320,0:32:56.920
It started with the Green Agenda
for the Western Balkans in 2020,

0:32:57.280,0:33:01.920
and it continued with the Growth
Plan, adopted in 2024.

0:33:02.280,0:33:06.680
We are talking about huge funds,
which comes in the form of grants

0:33:07.320,0:33:16.600
and as loans with a very low interest
rate, assigned for energy sector and

0:33:17.280,0:33:21.240
climate change.
So, this is a process.

0:33:21.640,0:33:24.640
The entire region is on the way
to aquiring EU membership.

0:33:26.920,0:33:33.280
EU can vauch for the improvement
of the regulations in the WB region,

0:33:34.560,0:33:37.800
that they are implemented better
and that we get that kind of support

0:33:39.000,0:33:42.320
for that transformation process
in order to improve the regulations,

0:33:43.040,0:33:46.440
but also financial support
to carry out the whole process.

0:33:48.240,0:33:52.040
This is so obvious. So, EU holds
a key which is rather crucial,

0:33:52.520,0:33:57.760
but we should make use of it,
to open a small door on that road.

0:34:00.240,0:34:04.280
When we consider our door opening,
I mean of the whole region,

0:34:05.520,0:34:08.320
how far the region has come,
how far the countries have come?

0:34:08.880,0:34:11.400
Does any of the countries have
a specific date for coal phase-out?

0:34:11.800,0:34:17.480
Whether some goals in that area are
adequate or needs improvement?

0:34:18.640,0:34:22.400
Can situation be improved through
strengthening regional cooperation?

0:34:23.080,0:34:26.000
Is there any cure for our condition
perhaps in that area?

0:34:26.840,0:34:32.840
Definitely, some goals are being
considered right now, some are

0:34:33.240,0:34:36.320
being adopted, whether those goals
will be respected remains to be seen

0:34:36.800,0:34:39.400
for a couple of years or decades,
which is of utmost importance...

0:34:40.960,0:34:49.280
On the one hand, since 2015,
the whole world awaits 2100,

0:34:50.080,0:34:54.640
as the end of the century, or to
2050, as a transitory time period.

0:34:56.640,0:35:02.200
Since 2015, the imperative has been
defined that the temperature cannot

0:35:02.640,0:35:07.080
be raised for more than 2 degrees,
but this is constantly being revised,

0:35:07.480,0:35:09.760
so now we are at the imperative
amounting to 1.5 degree.

0:35:10.040,0:35:14.000
Although it sounds rather banal,
they could say, 5 or 6 degrees,

0:35:14.720,0:35:18.360
what's the difference?
-This summer proves it's not banal.

0:35:19.800,0:35:24.200
Yes, exactly. A few degrees in the
global average temperature creates

0:35:24.680,0:35:30.280
a domino effect, resulting in
disastrous consequences,

0:35:31.160,0:35:33.880
such as extinction of entire species,
changes in the eco system, along

0:35:34.360,0:35:38.600
with the consequences which are
due when mankind is concerned.

0:35:39.880,0:35:44.400
Why am I telling you this?
It's a fact that within United Nations

0:35:44.960,0:35:47.880
and its Framework Convention on
Climate Change and within EU,

0:35:48.360,0:35:52.400
the dynamics of coal phase-out
is being monitored very carefully,

0:35:53.520,0:35:57.320
and every decision of changing
deadlines backwards or forwards,

0:35:57.720,0:36:00.480
causes long term consequences both
until 2050, and until end of century.

0:36:01.040,0:36:04.040
European Union had made estimates
and brought decision that up to 2050

0:36:04.640,0:36:08.840
it wants to break even when emission
of greenhouse gases are concerned.

0:36:10.920,0:36:16.400
The region entered this process
very slowly, according to me,

0:36:16.760,0:36:20.200
and we are now in the position,
when EU starts redefining its goals

0:36:21.520,0:36:27.040
making them more and more ambitious,
countries from our region only started

0:36:27.680,0:36:31.200
to consider and adopt some procedures
that will tomorrow become obsolete.

0:36:32.120,0:36:36.680
This is my leading impression.
North Macedonia has redefined

0:36:37.760,0:36:42.200
the date of full coal phase-out,
but I believe that after the elections

0:36:42.800,0:36:48.320
held relatively recently, they entered
phase of reviewing its climate policy.

0:36:49.600,0:36:54.000
Serbia mentions in a very shy manner
in some documents that gradually

0:36:54.360,0:36:57.960
maybe till 2050, we could
reach full coal phase-out.

0:36:58.400,0:37:01.160
We still don't have a concrete steps
that would lead in that direction.

0:37:01.920,0:37:03.880
According to some documents that
our state currently considers,

0:37:04.280,0:37:08.400
in time when Europe sets it as
an imperative, not out of a whim,

0:37:09.000,0:37:11.440
but for the sake of science,
which shows that by 2050,

0:37:11.840,0:37:16.640
it must come to zero, Serbia's best
case scenario would be that we might

0:37:17.400,0:37:20.080
reduce for 90 percent emission
of gases we currently make.

0:37:20.560,0:37:23.640
Still, this is not zero.
So, when it comes to the region,

0:37:24.240,0:37:29.320
North Macedonia made the first
significant step forward,

0:37:30.360,0:37:34.560
at one point, it also showed intent
to finish coal phase-out by 2030.

0:37:35.360,0:37:38.120
When it comes to the rest of the
region, let's speak about Serbia,

0:37:40.040,0:37:45.120
we mention 2050 in some of the
documents, but according to the

0:37:45.560,0:37:52.400
documents we had insight into,
until 2050, we cannot reach zero.

0:37:53.160,0:37:57.240
So, at a time when Europe has
already charting a certain direction,

0:37:57.640,0:38:01.360
and is constantly reconsidering it,
revising it, as it's not perfect...

0:38:01.880,0:38:04.640
There are states that pop up,
more or less... -Poland, etc.

0:38:06.120,0:38:08.320
That's right, but they deal with it
in a more serious way.

0:38:08.680,0:38:12.160
We needed several years to adopt
some of the goals which in the meantime

0:38:12.800,0:38:17.080
became obsolete, this is the problem
with those diverse double tracks.

0:38:19.760,0:38:24.600
Do you think that one of the solution
may be establishing links in the region

0:38:26.120,0:38:28.920
so that we can make stronger,
more robust energy systems,

0:38:30.320,0:38:33.320
we can in that way have an impact
on the cost and the rest.

0:38:34.320,0:38:39.360
When we consider WB region,
different states have a comparative

0:38:40.280,0:38:44.160
advantage in certain
renewable energy sources.

0:38:47.720,0:38:51.000
Greater regional integration or
cooperation on this level might lead

0:38:52.000,0:39:00.440
to the energy mix being present
in Europe, which could mean that

0:39:01.000,0:39:06.240
we rely more on renewable
energy sources, thus helping

0:39:07.000,0:39:14.640
one another by exchanging energy.
When on one side we have surplus,

0:39:16.760,0:39:21.080
we should redistribute it on a
regional level, and in this way,

0:39:21.680,0:39:25.160
we also reduce the costs of
transmission of that electricity.

0:39:26.800,0:39:28.960
So, within the region, those
comparative advantages in

0:39:29.480,0:39:33.040
renewable energy sources,
i.e. in Serbia - wind, in North

0:39:33.520,0:39:39.800
Macedonia - sun, some other countries
has their own potentials,

0:39:41.160,0:39:46.960
if we work on those systems to become
integrated, to reduce share of coal

0:39:47.480,0:39:50.160
in energy production and increase
various renewable energy sources,

0:39:51.320,0:39:56.240
mixing them in a smart way,
we could then help ourselves

0:39:56.880,0:40:03.400
and one another on the regional level.
Disadvantage of renewable energy

0:40:03.960,0:40:09.320
sources is that they are indeed
intermittent, to use expert terms.

0:40:10.280,0:40:13.080
Along with all the flaws that we
mentioned, it is a fact that when

0:40:13.520,0:40:17.320
we launch thermal power plant,
except when there is maintenance,

0:40:17.720,0:40:22.600
it can work constantly, our plants
aren't functioning like that due to

0:40:22.960,0:40:28.720
poor quality of lignite or because the
facilities are not well maintained,

0:40:29.720,0:40:32.960
and at one point, productivity
dropped to 10 percent, but

0:40:33.400,0:40:38.880
we can count on the consistency
when the facilities are concerned.

0:40:40.320,0:40:43.680
You now have sun for a certain
period of day, when we consider

0:40:44.080,0:40:47.080
photovoltaic power plant in its peak,
from 11 o'clock a.m. to 1 p.m.,

0:40:48.240,0:40:51.720
then, sun's rays are getting weaker,
there is also wind, hydro-energy,

0:40:52.200,0:40:58.320
but there is a way to mix those
sources smartly, to balance

0:40:59.080,0:41:02.760
themselves, if we have several of
them on the state and regional level,

0:41:03.400,0:41:08.320
then you would have a puzzle
that can definitely be functionable.

0:41:09.520,0:41:11.880
Thank you, we could discuss
those issues for days,

0:41:12.400,0:41:14.480
but this is our topic for discussion
in the second episode as well,

0:41:14.800,0:41:16.840
and we have to bring our
podcast to a close,

0:41:17.400,0:41:20.560
so for the very end, I would like
to ask what are crucial issues

0:41:21.680,0:41:24.840
that you could share with the
audience, in order to explain

0:41:25.280,0:41:27.880
why the process of coal
phase-out is so urgent

0:41:28.520,0:41:33.320
in the region of Western Balkans.
-Coal phase-out in the region of

0:41:33.800,0:41:39.680
Western Balkans is urgent because
for the last 12 months, every month

0:41:40.120,0:41:44.640
was the hottest month in the year
since the measurement is carried out.

0:41:46.320,0:41:52.080
June 2024 was the hottest,
May also, because we are at

0:41:53.160,0:41:57.000
the top of Europe and the world
in terms of air pollution.

0:41:57.320,0:41:59.360
I'm not talking about pollution
for the sake of pollution,

0:42:00.040,0:42:02.760
I'm talking about lost years of life,
premature deaths, diseases,

0:42:03.360,0:42:08.080
simply about damaged quality of life,
as we are talking about

0:42:08.640,0:42:11.360
an energy source that
has a limited shelf life,

0:42:11.880,0:42:15.760
it has its limited reserves,
probably till half of this century,

0:42:16.680,0:42:21.240
and what we have is not
of very good quality,

0:42:21.760,0:42:25.920
and above all, because this kind
of shift guarantees better health,

0:42:27.040,0:42:32.920
better quality of living, cleaner
energy, more favorable energy,

0:42:34.880,0:42:40.440
and that we are part of
a civilizational heritage

0:42:41.440,0:42:44.680
or civilizational struggle, as the
thing that will surely mark the

0:42:45.160,0:42:51.440
21st century, till 2100, is the struggle
to preserve life as it is on the planet,

0:42:52.760,0:42:55.840
as much as possible, we have
already lost some battles.

0:42:57.120,0:43:01.720
60 percent of extinct species
up till now caused by climate change

0:43:03.920,0:43:08.320
is the result of emissions that were
evident in the past, but we are now

0:43:08.800,0:43:11.280
feeling those consequences.
We will pay a high price for

0:43:11.800,0:43:13.360
the emissions that are
being now active.

0:43:13.800,0:43:16.600
Climate will face changes,
unfortunatelly, the rise of

0:43:17.120,0:43:21.880
temperature is now inevitable,
it'll create additional consequences,

0:43:23.280,0:43:27.840
such as losses in human lives,
damaged eco systems,

0:43:29.760,0:43:32.720
and financial means in the form of
loans, which we have to invest

0:43:33.120,0:43:36.200
in adaptation to changed
climatic conditions.

0:43:36.640,0:43:39.200
What we have to take care of is that
these consequences are as small as

0:43:39.800,0:43:41.720
possible, although they are
already big, but they can be

0:43:42.000,0:43:46.280
even bigger, so by coal phase-out,
we contribute to make life in this

0:43:46.680,0:43:55.840
town, country and the region
as best as possible till the end

0:43:56.240,0:44:01.200
of 21 century, which will be marked
by the climate change battle.

0:44:01.920,0:44:05.560
So to speak, think globally,
act locally. -That's right.

0:44:07.360,0:44:11.320
One of the solutions, as you
mentiones is regional cooperation.

0:44:13.360,0:44:15.440
I would like to conclude this
episode with this very thought.

0:44:15.760,0:44:18.040
Ognjan, thank you very much for
being my guest in the first episode.

0:44:18.600,0:44:21.240
See you.
-Thank you for the invitation.

0:44:24.600,0:44:26.520
NEW MAGAZINE
PODCAST

0:44:33.080,0:44:34.360
Produced by
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0:44:34.800,0:44:35.880
Supported by
Open Society Foundations