Did you know that this is the twelfth and final episode
in the first series of podcast Understanding the Steel Friendship
produced by New Magazine? My name is Stefan Vladisavljev,
and for the last seven-eight months I have been your host on the road of
getting to know some of the vital elements and segments of cooperation
between Serbia and China, in the context of both bilateral relations
and in the broader regional, European, geopolitical and international context.
Primarily this episode, the twelfth episode is devoted to the discussion
of the role of China in the war between Russia and Ukraine
and what kind of impact this can or cannot have on Republic of Serbia.
My today's guest is doctor Marko Savkovic from ISAC Fund,
the International and Security Affairs Centre.
I would warmly recommend that you follow the discussion closely,
as Marko disclosed at the very end of our discussion some really important
messages, and we came to some rather interesting conclusions,
springing from our discussion.
It's also important that we came to a close of the first series of podcasts.
The idea of this podcast, from the very beginning, was to familiarize
people, who do not consider this issue a priority, with some important
information that are true, and spoken by the people who are recognized as
relevant experts in this field, but we also touched upon foreign policy of
the Republic of Serbia, economic cooperation of Serbia and China,
we discussed significant ongoing topics, such as Xi Jinping's visit.
In the last episode, we discussed war in Ukraine.
Every episode had brought something rather specific, and was different
compared to the previous one. All our episodes are available
on several platforms, primarily in this video format, you can
watch our podcast on You Tube Channel of New Magazine,
NM standing for New Magazine. We recomment that you start
to follow us, as besides this podcast, on You Tube Channel of NM Magazine
you can watch a bunch of interesting interviews, with people authors of
New Magazine, as New Magazine is, primarily, a printed media, you can
buy it on kiosks every Thursday, and in other places where our
print media are being present. You can always find something
interesting to read about the global events, both local and international,
and simply relations with China, that it established with the countries
worldwide, are among the topics covered by New Magazine.
Apart from that, you can find us on Instagram, Tik Tok, while in audio
format, you can find us on Spotify, Deezer, Apple Podcast and all other
relevant podcast platforms. For the time being, this is
where our friendship ends, I will return to this issue through
my writing for New Magazine, and I believe that in future,
we will have another video format. I just wanted to tell you that
a whole team produced this podcast, first of all, New Magazine crew
when it comes to production, so I have to express my
gratitude to Nadezda, Duda, Djura, on their assistance on implementing
this program in the recent period of time.
My primary interest is related to China on the global level,
as well as China in the Western Balkans region.
I'm Program Director at the Foundation BFPE for a Responsible Society,
apart from assuming the role of your host for the last twelve podcasts.
I invite you to continue following the work of New Magazine,
through diverse platforms, as well as the work of BFPE Foundation,
I belong to, as we also deal with China within the framework of
our activities and research efforts, so I am confident that you will find
all sorts of interesting topics that could drive you to become
even more curious when it comes to this issue.
Stay tuned in this final episode featuring Marko Savkovic.
The episode starts right now.
Marko, good afternoon. -Good afternoon.
Your name is familiar to all readers of New Magazine, to the people who
follow our video editions, as quite recently you were hosted in another
program produced by New Magazine. As a host of the podcast entitled
Understanding the Steel Friendship, I would like to greet you,
we had the opportunity to work together for a longer period of time,
so it's my pleasure that, in the final edition of this first series,
I had the opportunity to host you as interlocutor, given that when
we speak about the sphere of geopolitical activities and the field
of foreign relations, and finally, relations of the great powers,
I cannot find a better way of ending the first season.
Thank you for those great and yet largely undeserved words,
and I am very happy to be hosted by you today.
The pleasure is all mine, indeed.
For a start, today we are going to talk about a current topic.
Several days ago, a Peace Summit in Switzerland had finished,
with the focus on the theme of the war in Ukraine.
The main topic of this podcast is People's Republic of China, and
the relations between People's Republic of China and Serbia.
We will try to establish certain links and parallels, as specific
issues of our conversation, but what seems to be not specific only for
our discussion is the initial question that I posed to all my interlocutors,
related to the title of our podcast Undestanding the Steel Friendship.
How do you interpret this phrase which is being used more often
on the part of officials and the researchers in describing relations
between Republic of Serbia and People's Republic of China?
It sounds rather striking, this is an impressive phrase, I would say.
It is carefully selected, someone will make fun out of it,
this is not strange when it comes to us, claiming that this phrase is
above all for marketing purposes, that it doesn't reflect the true
nature of our relations, but prompted by a conversation I have conducted
several days ago, I have been thinking about it, and actually,
if we follow how relations evolved between Serbia and China,
that started to develop more seriously during the reign of Democratic Party,
and President Tadic, now they are developed to unexpected proportions,
this is really a rather complicated relationtionship, that cuts across
a range of policies, producing quite diverse consequences,
both in internal politics, some concrete projects stem from
that relationship, primarily related to infrustructure,
that first comes to mind, but it is just one of the policies within this
cooperation has been developed. So, under the impression of this
conversation, one of my colleagues asked whether we are really certain
that China had chosen Serbia, or vice versa, that Serbia chose China.
I believe that we are talking here about some kind of recognition of
an opportunity that presented itself, and for now, due to the incredible
ability of People's Republic of China to present its field of technological
innovations so successfully, as the road from from idea to its
implementation is quite short in this regime than in complex democracies,
we will have for the next couple of years lots of innovative projects
implemented as a result of cooperation between Serbia and China.
As for the fact whether Serbia is important to China or vice versa,
we will discuss our relations later, but maybe this is a good introduction
to the first part of our conversation. I am going back to Tadic's statement
about four pillars of foreign policy. You've just mentioned innovations,
technological progress, infrastructure which was essential a decade ago,
for the economic development of Serbia maybe even some fifteen years ago...
Regardless of Serbian internal policy, can we draw conclusions from this
steady relation with China that China seems to be constant partner
in the multi-vector foreign policy of the Republic of Serbia, and
that it will remain to be so for the foreseeable future?
It certainly will, but when it comes to the UN Security Council,
this is where Russia is more important, Russia is our first
partner to discuss things, followed by talks with China.
So, on the political level, it seems that it is not being insisted upon to
such extent, this is not the only thing that matters.
We have arranged our relations with Russia that we have this political
dimension, meaning disputing the statehood of Kosovo, above all,
which is being very complicated due to Russia's invasion on Ukraine...
On the other hand, we have China with which we have political ties,
springing every time under the circumstances when Serbia
supports China as the only state aspiring to EU accession,
or one of the few states to do that, getting into trouble with our western
allies, but broadly speaking, this relationship is simply extended,
as I said at the beggining, it touches on lots of policies,
and I believe that Serbian authorities perceive China as an essential partner
in the future development of Serbia. -And as a steel friend, indeed...
I have additional question as you mentioned an institution that I would
like to deal with a little bit more in the second part of our discussion.
Let's go back to the main theme of our conversation, this is conflict
between Russia and Ukraine, and the role of China in it.
With a special focus as how it can reflect on the Republic of Serbia.
So, in February 2022, Russia launches its aggression on Ukraine,
putting itself in a position of being strongly condemned right
from the start, on the part of western liberal democracies.
China has taken a standpoint that differs from the standpoints
of our transatlantic partners. I have heard a phrase recently,
that depicts Chinese position - neutrality with pro-Russian features.
So, I would like to ask you first how the launch of Russian aggression
changed our perspective of the broadened field of foreign policy,
and can we speak at this moment about a sustainable system
of managing international relations, considering that we have opposite
sides, which was noticeable during Peace Summit in Switzerland that
was held a few days ago. -Yes, well I would like to start
from the statement given by Professor Roger Mac Ginty,
a new podcast has been released lately, where he spoke about the
end of so-called liberal peace, and for a new edition of New
Magazine, I will give a short review of his speech from the conference,
later turned into a podcast. Professor Roger Mac Ginty
says that we are now in a situation where we cannot reach peace via
negotiations, we are only in the field of conflict management.
We don't even have conflict resolution any more but only
conflict management. If we look at what happens in Gaza Strip,
in the wider area of Palestine and Israel,
if we look at what happens currently in Ukraine,
this is conflict management at best.
If we consider constant escalation of conflict that's been going on in
Ukraine, it is questionable whether its conflict management at all.
It might be its getting out of hand, where you keep going one step higher.
As for the role of China in this conflict, this is a good way to
describe China's position, but it also evolved somehow.
Last year, China was ready to offer good services, it hadn't made
such a pro-Russian standpoint, it feared nuclear escalation,
it is said that China activelly discouraged Russia from going
into that direction, as far as we find it so difficult to imagine
using nuclear weapons for tactical purposes. Now, situation changed.
First of all, China and Russia find common ground, developing a
strategic relationship. I agree with those who claim that China had
changed its former Russian partners with which Russia attempted to
build an all-encompassing relationship of trade exchange, techology exchange,
due to China's ability to become one of global centers of innovations, etc.
It also goes for the defence industry, but there we had mutual relationship,
as China also had access to highly developed defense industry of
military equipment that Russia possesses.
When we talk about the Summit in Switzerland, China immediately
distanced itself saying that it doesn't intend to take part in the Summit
that excluded Russia, which is not illogical position, so to say.
It is not surprising, as part of the problem how West approaches
this resolution, simply, we have to move forward toward peace
in Ukraine, as maintaining Ukraine as a functional entity depends on
when we intend to go towards reaching a peace agreement.
With all due respects and huge sacrifices that Ukraine made,
we have to be realistic, in the prolonged conflict,
with a country that possesses so much more resources and potentials,
it is not just a question whether West will keep sending arms to Ukraine...
We are talking about human lives. We are talking about a fact that
Russia is capable of sending another 30.000 soldiers on the battlefield
on a monthly basis. I doubt that Ukraine is capable of doing so.
Without any other kind of assistance it could get from western allies,
which is being considered a red line. -Absolutely, I find it hard to believe.
We can imagine military advisors assisting in puting to use those
modern armament systems with which West equipped Ukraine.
This is probably happening and we can imagine something like that.
It's impossible that military units take part in actual operations though.
But, let's go back to China. So, Russia was not invited
to the Summit, China distanced itself from it.
Moreover, recently, director of the Carnegie Russia Eurasia Center,
Alexander Gabuev had written an article for Foreign Affairs, in which
he points out that he thinks that China wants to be part of the
Peace Agreement, and I think it's true, China wants to be a
part of that story, so to speak. China is not interested in initiative
where it's deprived of a role of managing it, or be among the states
that are going to manage this peace process.
Is this role something that China needs in order to be labelled as
a super power? China certainly is a great power that keeps growing,
this is not disputable, is an active role in
potential conflict resolution, for example, in Ukraine, something
that would lead China to obtain super power status?
I'm not sure whether the phrase super power exists in modern
foreign relations, I would rather call it a power that is capable of
projecting power globally, with global military impact, etc.
I am sure that China is close to becoming such a power,
it needs just a little bit to become power, others would claim that it is.
If we recall mediation between Saudi Arabia and Iran,
that had attracted lot of attention last year, then China is a power.
This is a new reality that political west has to deal with.
As long as 80 states supported it, entire BRICS is not part of it.
BRICS has a different standpoint, it doesn't think that what Russia
did calls for universal condemnation, they are willing to listen to Russia's
arguments as well, it is being done for the sake of different motives.
Someone doesn't trust the West, has a problem with the legacy of
colonialism, lack of solidarity and so on...
When it comes to recent events, others have their interests in it.
This is my following question, you've mentioned the legacy
of colonialism, I would add imperialism on top of that...
China is often blamed for amplifing narratives that are being placed by
Russia in order to justify its operations in Ukraine.
One of the main narratives is that Russia has to defend itself,
as it was provoked by NATO expansion, and its potential
expanding to the East. This is being often heard through the official
channels of China, as one of the reasons why this conflict started.
When we place all this on the terrain of Global South, being perceived by
China as its primary sphere of expanding their own interest,
at the moment, those narratives have met with good reception.
How do you see that kind of alignment on the narrative
level between Moscow and Beijing, and whether it can lead to a deepening
of the system of foreign relations, and a further distancing of states
in which China plays a more significant role.
Global South, so to speak, and what seems to be called liberal
west democracies and its partners such as Japan, South Korea, Australia.
I want to distance myself at the very beginning, China does not
want the collapse of globalization.
China has benefited greatly from globalization.
Its rise is hard to imagine without globalization...
Global market for Chinese products, and so on...
In resisting that legacy of real and imagined imperialism,
we have to be very careful with these phrases, we have two
ideologies that are opposite, that possess their own narratives,
that are rather exclusionary, and when the other side,
meaning Russia and China, speak about western imperialism,
they are hardly aware of their own imperialism.
This is not surprising at all. However, they have a good
approach and access to a range of countries, in Africa, not so much in
South America, but Africa for sure. In Asia, in certain states, China is
welcomed, for all the above mentioned reasons, while some countries are
rather hostile towards China, it is looked upon with extreme suspicion.
There is fear that China's expansion will inevitably lead to its domination
in the same way as we faced with the domination of Japan in the years
preceding Second World War, during Second World War,
which ended up with Japan's defeat. So, it is rather complicated situation
but it is also the scene of a global competition.
No one speaks in terms of victory, the competition is ongoing.
Instead of naming it 'conflict', we have phrases such as
strategic competition, just to avoid using the term 'conflict'.
I think we are not far from the first military confrontation.
As you know, given that you are an expert on that particular region,
you know that the issue of Taiwan is very concerning, as there is
China's ambition to break away from the American, but not just American,
impact, it is a circle that is made through these alliances,
in order to impose itself as a real global stakeholder.
This is relevant when we consider conflict in Ukraine as well,
as it seemed that Pacific would be primary sphere of interest of the
foreign policy of the United States of America. This was the case...
However, with launching Russia's invasion on Ukraine, as if they
paused it for certain period of time, but soon experts started making
parallels between Russian aggression in Ukraine, and if Central China would
decide to make invasion on Taiwan, perceived by Beijing as integral part
of Chinese territory, so scenarios are both connected with Taiwan,
what the west has learned on the example of Russia's aggression,
or whether it is enough to offer financial assistance and
additional military defense systems which are given to Ukraine's disposal
both through manpower and through concrete mechanization,
but it is perceived as potentially much bloodier conflict due to its
geopraphic position, Taiwan is an island, if it is surrounded or
closed, there is no where to go from the island, this would simply
lead to a concrete final solution, which would also happen in Ukraine.
There's also an issue of an American prestige...
If we now think with Cold War logic, and logic of super power attitude,
United States cannot allow for the country under its protection,
to experience downfall, because it brings consequences with it,
no state would find that protection secure enough, we have a list of
states, such as Japan, the Philippines, perhaps,
Australia, for sure, a list of states that are in a kind of alliance.
Taiwan is the last barrier to China's access to the Pacific.
That's right... Sea border... -The last line of some sort of border
of Chinese impact and Chinese access to the east.
But, as someone might say, we have plowed quite deep,
we should not go into Taiwan's direction...
I will go to the regional issues, but just another thing that pertains to
Peace Summit, we are going to the field of speculation...
Do you foresee in the future some kind of coalition between China and
Russia on one side, and transatlantic partners on the other, that could
lead to the peace process, or this is just in the domain of fiction?
I don't see that, and this is not so smart to predict,
that the conflict will go into 2025, as Ukrainian counter-offensive
that was announced last year, haven't been successful afterall,
it has been haulted, obviously, while the Russian offensive that
was launched in October has also come to a hault now, as it seems.
However slowly that front moved, the breakthrough did not occur...
Ukraine had enough time to place fortifications, to position its best
units along the lines of the Russian army's advance.
However, the problem of manpower remains.
The problem of availability of ammunition is still there,
present evaluation is that 5-6 Russian shells go to one Ukrainian,
this is quite a huge problem for Kyiv, but the bottom line lies
in the fact at what point in time we decide to turn to a peace process.
It happens when both sides in conflict realize that they are not in position
to fulfill their military goals or such weakening of resources and
and capacities occur that continuing with fighting will bring into question
staying in power of the regime itself. I'm not under impression, presently,
that we have reached that point. Both on Ukrainian and Russian side.
We did have that weird situation, that will probably remain unresolved,
with Prigozhin's mutiny, but that event only stabilized Russia.
Now they have no doubts about the continuation...
When I say 'they', I mean public in general, and public that supports
president Putin, so it is apparent that the end of this conflict lies
in Putin's head, he is surely still interested in those four regions,
but this is not an overall agenda. I believe that their plan was to
divide Ukraine in half along the line of the Dniester,
to take over Odessa, and to turn Ukraine into a landlocked country.
A country without access to the sea, a land without opportunity to export
its cereal grain products, now they realize that this is not possible,
but months will go by until both sides realize that they're deadlocked.
This resembles the First World War. It is very similar in some aspects.
It is unbelievable. As if we have a hundred years of warfare
condensed into two years, in the sense that we have those trenches
from which no one can get out as drones will notice them immediately.
We have drones that are integrated in such a way
that laser guidance of shells and bombs is done through the drones.
They hit the target directly. There are terrible losses on both sides,
especially on the Russian side in the context of those frontal attacks.
Those are not so massive strikes, but they still incur heavy losses.
The moment when a man steps out of the armored vehicle, he becomes
target at that very moment. So, I don't see space for any
major breakthrough, it is certain that what Ukraine expects, in terms
of new armament, that should reach them soon, we cannot witness any
miracle, when they obtain F-16, when it becomes operable,
these are mostly fighters of a slightly older generation,
not the latest ones, especially as F-16 is in question, but it will make
things harder to Russia, and thanks not only to F-16 but also to other
systems such as strategic bombers, that launch glide bombs, causing
heavy civilian losses, will be in range...
That also somehow changes the picture, but in an absolute sense, capacity of
Russia to bear this is greater than the capacity of Ukraine.
This is my unbiased opinion, as we have so much negative thinking
and horrible cheering for one side, I say this as an objective observer,
as much as it is possible to be an objective bystander
and give thorough analysis of this conflict.
I would like to bring in this story to the regional level.
I would like to present a thesis first and to hear your comment.
We have discussed until now Russia and China as if they are
in a kind of coalition, but now I would like to point out their
differences when it comes to their acting on the foreign affairs field.
I would like to do that in the context of the Western Balkans region.
Russia is traditionaly present in the Balkan, in the Western Balkan as well,
in Serbia, which we deal with the most in our today's conversation, but within
this podcast in general, while China is relatively new actor in the region,
if we can call it new, after being present here for fifteen years now.
I mean in a modern context...
Russia has been often perceived as a spoiler,
in the region of Western Balkan, while China has been perceived as
facilitator of the current processes. Why? Let's just take into account
the process of EU integration. It is in the interest of Russia,
that is something that many regional researches agree on,
that it is in Russia's interest to spoil certain peace processes,
reconciliation processes in the region, encouraging certain ethnic divisions,
thus limiting progress in the field of European integration of some
of the states from this region, while China hasn't got that kind of attitude,
as China is very good at facilitating already started processes.
For instance, if you have a state with distinct deficiencies in
democratic processes within its systems, China won't force you
to become more democratic state, it won't make you less democratic
either, but if you have certain undemocratic tendencies,
China would be very pleased to exploit them.
So, China amplifies already existing processes...
We could say that some of the Western countries are also on
that track and they won't make you become more democratic...
I understand what terms we might allude to in this context.
This is a thesis that attracts my attention for certain period of time.
Can this be one of the trajectories for the Western Balkan region,
in sense that if one of the actors is present here, this will most
probably be China in the future, instead of Russia, due to this
active pushing Russia out of the region...
China won't hurt us badly, along with facilitating certain processes that
are, if wanted on our part, not so hard to achieve...
I think that's an interesting observation, but there are
at least three reasons why it hasn't got to be that way.
First, if leading European states would finally agree and act jointly,
and I don't refer to EU and Brussels bureaucracy but about leading EU
countries, Germany and France in the first place, and a couple of
other EU countries that can agree on something, perhaps...
If those states agree and take a firm position that Western Balkans
is our backyard and we are going to bulid a network of roads there,
we will open up space for investments, work on improving there institutions,
we will support democratic processes, than it would look much different.
What we see now is support that is being disputed by many people,
I would say, rightfully, that this is not so comprehensive support,
that is needed in order to overcome challenges that WB region faces with.
They would say that this is not fair, and that they make heavy investments
as it is, this is absolutely true, there is also responsibility on
the part of the local partners, but in 2024, we simply need more...
In our capacity as researches, we have the right to say so to
our western colleagues without being perceived as EU skeptics and cynics.
Second of all, China has to make assessment on its own.
It's not the China that used to be. I recall statement of Anastas Vangeli
several years ago on BSF, that this is not China that throws money away.
They are rather insightful, they take care of investment returns,
we have instisted on the fact, as you always mention,
that those are loans, those are not investments or grants but loans.
China will act in one part in a more conservative manner,
although it already bought lots of it. -It already happens...
The Belt and Road Initiative namely had significantly changed
its focus but also the amount of money that is being set aside for
such infrastructure projects. What was announced in October 2023,
and this is the amount of 4 billions for the projects in Serbia,
in the coming period, for a couple of projects,
more precisely, Smile of Vojvodina and Highway Belgrade-Zrenjanin-
Novi Sad, such projects are now very rarely implemented,
to place funds in that volume, as the return on investment
was a good way of boosting economic progress while
positioning their companies, but now they opt for commercial contracts,
while trying to position themselves on some other markets as well, as
relevant companies who win on tenders. -That's right, or they act jointly with
western companies, even... -They invest into some other
kind of infrastructure, pertaining to the renewable energy, digitalization.
Those hard infrastructure projects... -Which brings us to the third reason.
We have just explained it in a way. There are also Chinese companies,
they are actually state companies but not all of them has an excellent
track record, they did not always fulfill all their obligations on time.
Political pressure can always force businesses to be implemented,
I have in mind this example from Macedonia, pertaining to highway
to Ohrid, a colleague from Macedonia told me that it will be finished in two
years, as VMRO came to power again, as it agreed on the project initially.
This is rather interesting. Chinese will act different now.
Still, their impact is not so strong if we have strategic attitude of
European states present here. I am not confident that leading
EU countries are capable of such strategic approach, excluding
France, but this state solely is not sufficient.
Serbian authorities here, especially president Vucic tends to ballance,
to make a bargain, to be there for the one side, and for the other also.
They show their aspirations here for the resumption of the competition,
judging that they have interest in it.
We came to the level of Serbia in our discussion, which is a good
thing, actually, an introduction to my final two additional questions.
The first question relies on what we have been discussing,
that is political coordination on specific relevant issues.
The first theme to put on the table is the issue of conflict in Ukraine,
is it possible to describe Serbian position paradoxically as closer
to Chinese position at this point, from the point of view the war in
Ukraine has been perceived, compared to the position of
our western partners, European union and the United States of America.
This is an interesting perspective, but I would say that it is not so.
Serbia is somewhere between our western partners and China.
Let's put it that way, as in some critical moments, Belgrade was
clearly warned of the consequences if we do not align, in case Serbia
doesn't condemn invasion, Belgrade would have agreed and supported it.
Including the Declaration from the Summit in Switzerland. -That's right.
It is being taken care of that it wasn't reported that Kosovo
also supported that declaration and that it was treated as a state,
among those 80 signatories, it is clear to the people that
Serbia assists Ukraine with provision of military equipment,
I suppose primarily with ammunition, we have numerous reports from the
battlefield claiming that we provided them specifically with mortar shells,
it is clear where it was made in, and it is a deal made by the
mediation of the USA, it is also very clear.
This whole new situation with lithium comes to mind...
So, we find ways to make things work and to satisfy the interest
of the west in our region. West acts in part transactionally,
as the regime in Belgrade, so this is a new reality,
where people had to make ends meet.
Democracy will suffer in the end, our idea of liberal democracy...
We'll have to be concerned for... I wouldn't say institutions, but
our perception of freedom, civil rights, I am afraid that
the resistance that people put up when some projects are involved
will be ignored unscrupulously, which is very bad, of course.
However, this is part of this new reality and the existence
of a conventional conflict in Europe, along the lines of interest
of great powers, i.e. the west and Russia at this moment.
This will serve as a great conclusion but I intended to pose final question.
You mentioned at some point that for Serbia, Russia is still the main ally
in the UN Security Council, or let's call it the main partner.
What seems interesting and what is not general knowledge,
for those who are not familiar with Chinese activities in the field of
foreign relations, it is the fact that China very rarely leaves its zone
of comfort, and gives open support, or openly opposses something that
is not in the primary sphere of China's interest.
Primarily within multilateral organizations, I refer to the
UN Security Council and the UN General Assembly.
It didn't happen by accident that just a few weeks after signing
the Agreement on Shared Future between Serbia and China,
China was one of the states that openly opposed adoption of
UN Resolution on Srebrenica. Does this uncharacteristic action
of China indicates that we can in future count on greater alignment
between Serbia and China on important issues within multilateral
institutions, where issues pertaining to China are rather tricky, such as
human rights, minority rights, certain security elements and laws,
the situation in Hong Kong, is this something potentially concerning?
Yes, by all means. Look, this is rather interesting, actually.
Serbia had a problem due to our non-alignment when it comes
to Russia, and in future, we will face problems as we won't align when it
comes to China. Political west, towards which we aspire,
whether we want it or not, we will belong to it, sooner or later,
the west will continue with the confrontation process
with China. -Known as 'tightening of relations'.
Yes, or global competition, whatever we might call it...
The bottom line is that it won't be good.
I see where it's going. All the voices that call for
reducing tensions and rapprochement are being shut down as apologists
of Putin, Xi Jinping, genocide... Let's take Mearsheimer, for instance.
He was universally despised, and I go back to Mac Ginty,
as he said several great things in that podcast.
No one speaks about peace. Peace is not at the table.
This is what I find deeply concerning. It is only talked about how we can
win, how to get the upper hand, how to reach some goal with
military equipment, it is understandable.
What happens when the conflict enters the third, the fifth,
the seventh year? When will we start talking about peace?
Who mentions peace in the context of Israel and Palestine? No one.
We witnessed terrible destruction and suffering, and I fear that we
should consider the fact that societies we live in have their
own boundaries, there is a certain amount of death
and destruction that we are capable of accepting.
There are some limits though.
We should not forget universal and elementary human values
that are prescribed and defined with different charters and declarations...
And our faith in the political system, that some justice will be established,
that a certain measure of things will be established
in terms of protecting vital interest, and what is bigger vital interest than
for the people to live, for the society to keep getting developed further,
etc., not to go into some philosophical considerations.
I would like to discuss peace to a greater extent, as
no one is considering it.
In the context within which we led our conversation, and given that
this is probably last couple of minutes of the first season of our podcast,
I believe that we can finish our conversation by sending this vital
message to our audience. I want to thank you once
again for joining us today, I hope you find our discussion
interesting, who followed us all the way to the last segment of
the very last episode, we leave room to find us somewhere on
the street or to find our email addresses if you are interested
in any of this, Marko is always an excellent interlocutor on many
issues, if you want to find out something new, and we will
see again on some other occasion. -That's right.
Many thanks on your invitation, I wish you success in the sequel
of this very interesting podcast, including a variety of interesting
themes and hopefully interesting interlocutors.
Produced by: New Magazine
Implemented by the support of the U.S. Embassy