1 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:13,000 Welcome to new episode of podcast 'Understanding the Steel Friendship'. 2 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:16,880 As always, we are available on You Tube Channel NM New Magazine, 3 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,120 as well as on all relevant podcast platforms such as Spotify, Deezer 4 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,800 and Apple podcast. You can also follow us on Instagram profile of 5 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:27,640 New Magazine, while we are available on Tik Tok, too. 6 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,120 In the eleventh episode of this podcast, I have the opportunity 7 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:35,400 to talk to Jelena Gledic, senior proofreader and sinologist at 8 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:39,160 the Faculty of Philology. We have discussed 9 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:44,120 the visit of Xi Jinping to Belgrade in May 2024, 10 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:49,120 but we have also covered other issues such as the level of 11 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,040 diplomatic relations of China with the countries worldwide, 12 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:58,000 what does Steel Friendship mean from the linguistic point of view, 13 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:02,400 so we might be getting a definite answer after eleven episodes... 14 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:06,880 I believe that you'll hear other interesting things in our discussion. 15 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,280 However, this is penultimate episode in this series, but 16 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:19,680 you can always visit our You Tube Channel, Spotify and Deezer feed, 17 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:25,040 in order to watch any of the previous episodes, as I am certain that in the 18 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:28,120 ten episodes already posted, you've been able to find lots of 19 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:30,560 interesting things pertaining to the Serbian - Chinese relations, 20 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:33,520 as well as Chinese presence on the international scene. 21 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:38,960 I'm sure that the following two episodes will bring new information. 22 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:41,880 So, to cut the story short, Jelena Gledic, Faculty of Philology, 23 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:44,720 I'm certain you'll find our discussion highly interesting. 24 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:56,880 Jelena, good afternoon. -Good afternoon. 25 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:59,280 Welcome to the podcast Undestanding the Steel Friendship. 26 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:02,360 I'm glad to have the chance to host you today. -Thank you. 27 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,840 You're a senior proofreader and sinologist, you are currently 28 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:13,920 engaged in the Faculty of Philology, so you deal with China from a rather 29 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:22,240 interesting and specific perspective. Until now, I knew you only by hearsay, 30 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:28,680 then we had an opportunity to meet among other things, when I arranged 31 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:34,360 this interview, so for a start, I would like to thank you from 32 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,800 the bottom of my heart, on diligent preparation for taking part in this 33 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:47,960 interview. We finish slowly this podcast in the first season. 34 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:54,360 It's true that we used to ask all of our guests what the phrase 35 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:58,960 Understanding Steel Friendship might mean for them, as this is 36 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:03,880 the name of our podcast, we will now be in a position to hear 37 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:11,000 an expert opinion, as the language is the focus of your work. 38 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:18,240 So, it would be good to hear an opinion that wouldn't be biased. 39 00:03:19,920 --> 00:03:21,760 Only and exclusively subjective under these circumstances. 40 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:26,760 I'll stay true to the traditional first question as a good luck charm, 41 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:32,160 and I would like to ask you how do you percieve or 42 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,880 understand the phrase of the Steel Friendship? 43 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:39,120 First of all, thank you for inviting me to join you here. 44 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,200 It is great pleasure to be here today, as the story begins with 45 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:45,480 the title of this podcast, so we could start with that... 46 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:52,120 I would like to point to two aspects when I hear the phrase of Steel 47 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:54,480 Friendship and how I perceive it from my personal perspective. 48 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,480 One aspect is linguistic one, and the other is a broader aspect, as to how 49 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:00,640 Chinese treat foreign policy. As for the term itself, 50 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:03,240 this is the term or phrase that is being used in China for long. 51 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,240 It means some really close friendship, relations with certain country that 52 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:09,920 implies good economic relations. Those are the states that offer 53 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:12,360 support to China when major issues are concerned. 54 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,400 In the first place, which was insisted upon, it was Pakistan, followed by 55 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,640 other states that used to support China back in the fifties and 56 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:22,040 sixties and seventies, those were mainly countries from Asia and 57 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:24,840 Chinese neighbouring countries. So, those were the states that 58 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:27,520 established both political and economic cooperation 59 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,320 with China and Yugoslavia was not among them. 60 00:04:30,840 --> 00:04:32,680 There are some connections with the name of Tito, as Tito in Chinese 61 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:35,840 sounds like Tiantang, the same tian from the steel friendship with China, 62 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,440 so there is a link that seems to be established subsequently, 63 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:43,720 but this is a linguistic term that is earlier being used for a number 64 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,640 of different coutries. Then, we took adventage of it, particularly when 65 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:49,920 our steel mill fell into the hands of the Chinese, so this term has 66 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,080 been applied to Serbia as well, along with establishing good relations 67 00:04:53,600 --> 00:05:00,120 since 2000, then this steel friendship marked the beginning of political 68 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:04,280 cooperation between China and Serbia and it was translated as steel 69 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,680 rather than iron friendship, which is in the basis of the word... 70 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,960 We needed it to be a steel friendship because of our steel mill... 71 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:15,840 In English, some authors use the phrase steel friendship, which is 72 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:20,920 the title of this podcast, but we should bear in mind that discourse 73 00:05:21,280 --> 00:05:24,840 in China has been greatly polarized, so we are being sided without our 74 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:30,840 consent in this economic global conflict that exists and when we 75 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:36,320 use one term or the other, we are taking sides of parties. 76 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,200 So, when we say in English 'iron friendship', we use Chinese 77 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:41,480 terminology and when we say 'steel friendship', then we use 78 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,200 American terminology and everything that goes with it. 79 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,480 So, I would like to cast some light to this side, and on the other 80 00:05:48,840 --> 00:05:52,520 hand, Chinese use these terms for international relations, 81 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,040 they are rather proactive with this regard, and it is part of their 82 00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:00,160 proactive policy for the last ten to fifteen years. 83 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,200 It also has something to do with Chinese different views on 84 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:06,360 propaganda issue, and the role of media in China, but maybe 85 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:08,720 I'm being too broad for a start... 86 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:14,840 No, I find it really interesting. What seems to be the point, 87 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:19,600 is that sometimes we are not even aware that the phrases we use 88 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:26,000 often puts us on one or other side. So, we side with someone... 89 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:28,080 That's right... -Even if we don't want to... 90 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,000 Yes, that's right... So, one of my desires today here is to assist 91 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:33,720 in establishing this mutual understanding. 92 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:37,120 I am under impression that there is no understanding, it's fine not to 93 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,240 agree with something when we understand it fully, but I'm not sure 94 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,240 that we understand each other. Goor example is Belt and Road 95 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:44,800 Initiative, that was originally named 'One Belt and One Road', it was 96 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:49,040 interpreted from Chinese as 'One Belt, One Road', than the question was 97 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:51,800 posed whether China would like to establish hegemony... 98 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,360 That is one single road, so they corrected themselves along the 99 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:58,640 lines for better purpose, making it one of many economic trajectories... 100 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,600 Of the infrastructure that they built in the belt from China to the West 101 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,320 Europe, so they officially changed the title of the initiative into 102 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:07,400 Belt and Road Initiative, instead of One Belt, One Road... 103 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:10,800 Still, some people use old title, abbreviation OBOR instead of BRI. 104 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,200 I would like a follow up on the words that you've just mentioned. 105 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:20,640 Do Chinese officials do that, or Chinese Communist Party, 106 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:25,880 those who are in charge of this initiative in order to improve their 107 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:28,680 image on the global level? -Absolutely. 108 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,440 Their idea is to present themselves in the best possible way. 109 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,280 For the last couple of years, Xi Jinping himself used to say 110 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:38,360 that China has to tell the story about China well. 111 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,360 They think that up till now, the world spoke on their behalf, 112 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:43,720 and that now is the time for them to speak about themselves... 113 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,200 This is directly involved with the issue how propaganda is being 114 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:48,440 perceived in China, as the word propaganda is the same word 115 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:54,720 for publicity, make something public. Meaning systematic dissemination of 116 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,080 ideas, which would be any kind of existing formal education system, 117 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,600 so propaganda doesn't have bad conotation in Chinese. 118 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,360 It also goes for the media. The goal of the media is not necessarily to 119 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,200 give objective overall information to the Chinese citizens, but they 120 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,680 should offer relevant information and maintain public order and peace. 121 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,160 From European perspective, it sounds rather scandalous. 122 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:15,520 Due to censorship, we think that all should be released... 123 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:17,760 But their perception is different, along with the role of the media. 124 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:20,600 So, it is rather paradoxical when someone says that the state 125 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,360 controls media in China when it is completely natural in China. 126 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:25,480 It goes without saying that the state controls the media, you know. 127 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:27,520 The same as the state controls formal educational system. 128 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:33,760 This is also very interesting to me to what extent the language itself 129 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,360 is the embodiment of a civilizational determinant, 130 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:40,760 but also determinant of political system, as such... 131 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:45,560 What you mentioned in the end, for liberal democracies from the West, 132 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,520 and we can discuss the level of their liberal standpoints... 133 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,240 and the level of democracy in those states... -That's right, exactly... 134 00:08:52,680 --> 00:08:57,000 Freedom of expression is possibly the first principle by which 135 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:03,280 they should be guided, leaving service information for public broadcasters... 136 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,520 Along with the actions of public importance, and this goes as a 137 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,840 default in China, those are initial settings. -Exactly... 138 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:18,480 I would like to point out to something that is both global and regional 139 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:23,240 but primarily national context. We had opportunity to talk 140 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:30,280 outside of this studio, we had closely followed the visit of 141 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,240 Chinese President to Serbia on May seventh and eighth... 142 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:39,360 I would like us to touch upon several issues, but for a start, 143 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,320 I would like to hear what were most interesting elements for you, 144 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,960 what attracted your attention the most during the visit that 145 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:53,840 lasted less than 24 hours, but it was rather efficient and effective. 146 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,400 And very interesting, by all means. From different points of view... 147 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:00,640 While preparing for this interview, I had singled out three points. 148 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:05,120 The first is those inscriptions that were all over the city. 149 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,720 For someone dealing with language, culture and society, this was rather 150 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:14,080 interesting, as this was very noticeable, given that a day 151 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:18,200 after his visit, it was Europe Day, then we hosted guests from Ukraine, 152 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:22,360 that no one heard anything about... while Chinese President's visit 153 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,120 was so noticeable, and we all heard about it. 154 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:27,440 It was interesting to me as in my previous researches, 155 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:30,200 it was determined that such things can affect the perception of public 156 00:10:30,560 --> 00:10:34,240 opinion, we have conducted a study on the perception of China all over 157 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,360 Europe, and I inserted some questions for Serbia, so it turned out that 158 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,600 people have quite a wrong perception of our relations with China. 159 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:46,320 People who used to live in Yugoslavia back in the nineties until nowadays, 160 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,360 seem to think that we had best relations with China during Tito's 161 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,560 reign and today is the same. There is no awareness at all 162 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,200 that, for instance, Tadic is the one commencing cooperation with China. 163 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,160 You talk about the people from Europe in general? -People from Serbia... 164 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,680 Nationally representative sample of Serbian population is simply 165 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,280 under the influence of what it sees in the media, in public, 166 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:11,120 that Serbia had great relations with China, followed by no relations, 167 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,000 and then again great relations. There is no sense of historical 168 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,600 reality, how was it back in the nineties, and how it developed... 169 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,080 So, this is why I found those inscriptions rather interesting. 170 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,440 That is something that stays in mind, that is something people'll remember. 171 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:27,280 That to which importance is attached. 172 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:29,520 Second moment I find very interesting is the presence of Tomislav Nikolic 173 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:31,480 at the airport, at welcoming reception. 174 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:33,880 He is someone who's not so present in our public life, 175 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:38,320 but he was the one who hosted Xi Jinping back in 2016. 176 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,680 This is good as our people realize how much continuity is important 177 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:48,440 to the Chinese, this is not a bad thing to learn and adopt, 178 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,040 that this continuity is being very much appreciated in 179 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:58,640 the Chinese society. Third, which was rather sad, 180 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:02,840 and which was earlier mentioned in this podcast, it is Serbian media 181 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,160 being so polarized, so media reported on this visit in a very 182 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:10,480 polarized way, as if they lacked considering the public interest. 183 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,480 As if it was all considered from the perspective of our local policy, 184 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,680 pro-government or anti-government. In one of your previous podcasts, 185 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,720 you mentioned that we could lose chances to make something 186 00:12:23,560 --> 00:12:27,880 good out of it, good for Serbia, whatever that means, 187 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,240 for the common good. On the other hand, 188 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:32,880 some problems might pass, as are perceived as criticism 189 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,560 aimed at the government, and are ad hoc being rejected as criticism, 190 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:39,080 and they are not considered as potential real existing problems. 191 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,440 I have two side questions that I would like to pose now... 192 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,960 One pertains to the inscriptions I would like to go back to... 193 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:50,280 If I gathered it right, as we realized in the previous podcasts, 194 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,120 that I am not fluent in Chinese, so I'm not reading Chinese either, 195 00:12:55,400 --> 00:13:01,440 have you gone into details as to detect what those inscriptions mean? 196 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,200 The rumour has it that these were sayings from Chinese culture and 197 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:12,640 tradition that Xi Jinping used to say in his public appearances, 198 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:15,160 it can be, it doesn't have to be true... 199 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:22,040 So, if you are familiar with the meaning, great, if not, I find 200 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:31,600 rather interesting symbolism and visual presentation of China 201 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:38,760 on such a high level, do you think that people might find it repulsive? 202 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:45,960 When you try to introduce something to someone and that is quite unknown, 203 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,600 do you think it could be a bit counterproductive, 204 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,960 regardless of this relationship... And this is my next question... 205 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:56,800 Not whether it is in favor of local politicians or not, but simply 206 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,720 this is not established practice at least in our environment. 207 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:04,840 As for the content of inscriptions, if there were some of Xi's thoughts, 208 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:07,960 I haven't recognized them, it was something along the lines 209 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:14,400 ''Welcome our dear Chinese friends, welcome respected Chinese friends'', 210 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:19,560 those were inscriptions all over. Now, we have reached a very 211 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,320 interesting question as this is something quite common for China, 212 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,000 when you go to China, they communicate with inscriptions, 213 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:33,160 posters and billboards, and this is something that goes back prior to 214 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,560 Communist China, but still it is very characteristic of Communist China 215 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:41,600 and it is being linked to it, especially in our region. 216 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:43,960 When I exchanged messages with my colleagues during the visit, 217 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:48,240 they mentioned North Korea, so many people found it repulsive, 218 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:52,040 who disliked it. Still, many people find it quite agreeable. 219 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:54,640 This opens question to which I don't have an answer... 220 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,120 This is the question in which direction we are heading? 221 00:14:57,840 --> 00:14:59,880 It is obvious that we established political cooperation with China, 222 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,520 it is obvious that our ruling party cooperates with them thoroughly, 223 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:05,840 there is mutual exchange of knowledge and principles, 224 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:10,440 so it is questionable how we will proceed developing as a society. 225 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:16,040 Among the initial questions that were raised during the visit was 226 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,680 whether it is established practise in Serbia to welcome one president 227 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,240 at such a high level, with such diplomatic honors... 228 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:30,080 My initial response would be that we don't have such a visit on a 229 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,600 such a high level so often... -Exactly, we are inexperienced. 230 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,640 This is the first thing. 231 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,880 Secondly, Chinese diaspora here in Serbia is not so large. 232 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,480 Some say we speak about 20 to 30.000 of Chinese citizens. 233 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:48,960 It also depends what we consider diaspora, whether they are here 234 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,000 temporary, or not... But that's another topic. 235 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:53,760 I don't know whether people had the opportunity to see the way 236 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:57,680 in which Chinese President was welcomed in Paris, prior to Belgrade, 237 00:15:58,080 --> 00:15:59,720 involving a procession that went through the city... 238 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,320 Containing Chinese flags and inscriptions addressed to Chinese 239 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:10,360 President on a positive note, as well as in Budapest, where 240 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,960 he departed from Belgrade, where symbolism was pretty much the same. 241 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:23,920 So, the practice, that is, the action of our political leadership when it 242 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:29,440 comes to welcoming Chinese President was on the same level as in those two 243 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,280 other countries which organized welcome, and the question whether 244 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:42,040 some people find it repulsive, if it happens now and never again, 245 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:44,960 then it is a question what was the point of it. 246 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:50,320 But if it is a trend when there are no such visits, 247 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,680 then it would be interesting to see social reactions then. 248 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,760 When it comes to other visits, I find it rather interesting when 249 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:04,760 some media, mainly international, American media, wrote that only 250 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:06,840 Serbia and Hungary rolled out the red carpet for Xi Jinping, 251 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,680 while Macron was rolling out the red carpet in that moment. 252 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,840 This is unbelievably paradoxical. So, I completely agree with you. 253 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,280 Showing diplomatic honors to a politician of such a profile was due. 254 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,040 That's why I was glad that Tomislav Nikolic was present, 255 00:17:20,360 --> 00:17:22,800 as it means that we understand the context and what is important. 256 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,800 I would like to consider it more broadly, not only in the context 257 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,360 of China, this is something I cannot determine whether it was good or not, 258 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:32,760 we see it in another details. We witness that Serbian flag 259 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,840 has become more prominent, it is part of different approach in public sphere 260 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,480 where you have certain symbols, which are meaningful, so it will 261 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,760 help for the society to be perceived differently, as well as the state and 262 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:45,880 nation and everything else that goes along with it. 263 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:49,320 So, it is interesting to closely follow, anyway. 264 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:51,840 There were so many interesting details during the visit, but what 265 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:53,720 seems to be the specific result of the visit itself 266 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,960 is a set of agreements, interstate agreements and contracts that 267 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,920 Serbia has signed with the People's Republic of China. 268 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,120 Larger part of it related to different forms of sectoral cooperation, 269 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:12,360 namely we signed 28 international agreements and an interstate one. 270 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:19,040 What seems to be significant to mention is the fact that since 2016, 271 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:25,360 Serbia and China had established a comprehensive strategic partnership, 272 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,280 that specifies the level of diplomatic relations that China develops with 273 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:34,240 certain countries, and after this visit, we have been informed that 274 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:43,280 Serbia has now entered the level of cooperation called 275 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:49,400 a Community with a shared future. I don't want to go into diplomatic 276 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:55,560 relations, but I would like to make people who listen and watch our 277 00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:02,440 podcast familiar with the slogan Community With a Shared Future 278 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,080 in a linguistic point of view from the perspective of PR of China, 279 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:10,400 and how come we have that now on the table for signing? 280 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,560 Well, yes... Dedication to joint community building, yes... 281 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,720 That's the phrase, exactly... I would lik to add that prior to 2016 282 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,080 we had strategic partnership followed by deepened strategic partnership. 283 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:27,720 I mention it as it is important, given that it is one layer in this building 284 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:30,840 of hierarchical foreign relations that China is conducting. 285 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,600 This is a part of it, and it is relatively new in a way, 286 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:37,440 Vietnam signed the same contract with China last year, 287 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,960 but Serbia is certainly the first European country to sign it. 288 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:48,280 As I mentioned earlier, I am working on a classification of all relations, 289 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:54,120 because that network is not linear, but is interesting for this term, 290 00:19:54,720 --> 00:20:00,160 it is not a new one, so the phrase Community of a Shared Future or 291 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,560 Building A Community With A Shared Future For Mankind, as it's sometimes 292 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,800 called, is not a new phrase, it was mentioned in the Serbian media, 293 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,240 also in the statements of Chinese officials for the last decade, 294 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:13,600 it is written into the Constitution of China, 295 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,040 it appeared prior to Xi Jinping gained power, during the reign 296 00:20:17,360 --> 00:20:20,600 of President Hu Jintao, but Xi Jinping made it his philosophical motto, 297 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:25,480 we had earlier Mao Tse-Tung's thought and now we have Xi Jinping's thought. 298 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:28,720 It is being studied as a political doctrine, and he made it one of 299 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,800 the very important milestones of Chinese policy. 300 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:36,600 A Community With A Shared Future For Mankind is Chinese 301 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,920 approach in which they are actually trying to respond to the challenges 302 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,760 of economic globalization, and what I am saying now pertains to the 303 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,720 Chinese theory, so I am not spreading any kind of propaganda here... 304 00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:51,720 I am trying to present to people what is in the documents... 305 00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:54,880 There are lots of documents, there's Inistitute in Beijing dealing with it, 306 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,320 White Paper on Chinese approaches to it... 307 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,200 What seems to be their idea? Peaceful and sustainable development, 308 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:04,920 focusing on challenges that cannot be answered by just one nation... 309 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,240 This includes political, economic, security, cultural and ecological 310 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,240 issues where several nations should get together in order to respond to 311 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:17,520 all those worldly global challenges primarily due to economic flows. 312 00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:22,240 China had the Belt and Road Initiative that is a decade old, 313 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,440 but I want to mention that they have three new global initiatives piloting. 314 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,120 We need another show to explain what that means, and some regard 315 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,320 it as a new propaganda term, but it makes sense in Chinese 316 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,400 foreign policy, so they now have Development Global Initiative, 317 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:40,800 Global Security Initiative and Global Civilization Initiative, 318 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,880 which is the newest one, those are Chinese approaches 319 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,600 to the world order, let's say... This is linked to another concept 320 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,560 for which it is questionable whether China returns to it, 321 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,960 and it is called Tiant ng, it is not being translated, 322 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:58,960 but it means ''everything under heaven's cap'', 323 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:05,160 this is a concept from ancient China, if you watched the film 324 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,880 ''Hero'', I don't want to be spoiler, but it is all that matters. 325 00:22:11,120 --> 00:22:14,680 Chinese tried to establish policies that would ''work'' having in mind 326 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:20,000 all the existing world. Ideally, that means that 327 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,400 solutions will be found, it is being translated as 'win-win', 328 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,680 but in China, it is to everyone's satisfaction, every person should 329 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:31,160 benefit from it, but it also includes potential risks, 330 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,720 and being as consistent as possible in those policies. 331 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,840 A lot of doubts were caused by whether Serbia has entered now 332 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,280 into a new political community, actually, with PR of China, 333 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:46,840 and I would like to offer my perspective and response. 334 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:52,440 Namely, similar to 2016, now we established foundation for further 335 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:56,000 development of our relations, how will Serbia benefit from 336 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,840 Community of Shared Future, or by building this community, 337 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:05,400 will largely depend on the next steps in implementing in the near future. 338 00:23:06,120 --> 00:23:11,200 Signing it means nothing special, but I believe that we had already 339 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,560 seen some of the results, I would like to mention the voting in the 340 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:20,480 UN General Assembly, when it comes to the Resolution on Srebrenica, 341 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,480 when China got out of its comfort zone, 342 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:30,960 given that it is known that it is standard for China that when 343 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,280 it is about something that doesn't concern PRC, it stays away from it. 344 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:38,440 And taking openly one side, as China hasn't abstained, 345 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:44,520 but voted against the Resolution, this is, according to my opinion, 346 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,600 the first concrete result of this Community of Shared Future. 347 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,680 What will happen in future, I guess we will cooperate in other spheres 348 00:23:53,080 --> 00:24:00,360 and elements, but it certainly haven't come out of the blue, 349 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:05,560 but it is part of Chinese culture, tradition and philosophy 350 00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:09,520 in the last instance, so I would like to pose an additional question here, 351 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:17,400 referring to what you've already mentioned, to make Xi Jinping's 352 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:23,640 political thought closer to audience, as it had become an established part 353 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:29,000 of ideology and the way of establishing political system 354 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:31,640 in the People's Republic of China. 355 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,280 I will try to do that, but first, I would like to comment briefly 356 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,120 that you are absolutely right, that this is a new chance for 357 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,360 political cooperation, and it is also important to mention another thing, 358 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:48,120 that this idea of Community of Shared Future has been contested and 359 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,720 challenged in many different ways, since it has been presented, 360 00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:53,960 and one of the ideas is that China is thereby trying to threaten 361 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,680 the current world order with international organizations, 362 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,840 and multipolar powerful world. China, on the other hand, claims 363 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,480 that its aim is quite the opposite, that they want to point to the 364 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,000 inconsistencies in the work of international organizations, 365 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:11,360 and to try to establish holistic multipolar world, instead of a 366 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,520 quasi multipolar world, as they used to call it, as the power lies solely 367 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,360 in Western Europe and North America. 368 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,920 So, it is not accidental that Serbia is the first country, as we all know 369 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,800 that among other things that tie Serbia and China, there's bombing 370 00:25:25,120 --> 00:25:28,600 of Chinese Embassy, so NATO has been perceived as a common 371 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,800 adversary, to put it like that. So, from this perspective, it isn't 372 00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:36,800 strange that we established such kind of cooperation with China. 373 00:25:37,120 --> 00:25:41,680 As for Xi Jinping's thought, if I'm not wrong... -Yes. 374 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,800 How the transformation took place. -This is rather complicated issue, 375 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:52,240 but I will try to sum it up. The entire development and course 376 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,520 of Chinese politics since 1949, when actually People's Republic 377 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,600 of China was established, had some characteristics that we know, 378 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,800 related to communist systems, but it resembled greatly the way 379 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,920 in which China evolved for the last 5000 years, 380 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,480 so this Chinese continuity that is being mentioned, when they talk 381 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,520 of some 5000 years of uninterrupted tradition, 382 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,960 this isn't surely geographic continuity, neither is it strictly 383 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,320 cultural or historian continuity, as dynasties changed, 384 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,720 and some foreign dynasties reigned, but it is rather kind of philosophical 385 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,240 socio-political continuity, where some ideas or some ways of 386 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,320 organizing society and social relations had its continuity 387 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,240 during whole this period of time. Starting with the First Chinese 388 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,600 Emperor, from the renowned film 'Hero' that united China, 389 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,200 and prior to that, several dynasties that that set postulates of it, 390 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,080 those are referred to as Confucian philosophy, 391 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,920 but it then entered various political structures, it has been changed, 392 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:54,720 so as I said, this is a rather complex topic. 393 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,920 Why am I telling you all this? So, there was this traditional 394 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,800 Confucianism or Confucian ideology and philosophy, 395 00:27:01,360 --> 00:27:04,440 and then in accordance with Communist systems, there was Mao Tse-Tsong's 396 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,080 thought, and we all know famous red booklet was young people's 397 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:16,720 reading, and after his death, all the bad things were attributed 398 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:21,000 to him and his gang of four, his close associates... 399 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,160 However, although we might hold Mao Tse-Tsung accountable for 400 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,800 some negative sides of Chinese history, he hasn't been perceived 401 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,040 in bad way within China, his image is on all banknotes in China, so 402 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:38,000 he still has positive image there, and after his death, I believe that 403 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:42,400 no other Chinese leader had such a high place in Chinese history, 404 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,040 I dare say, until Xi Jinping. Deng Xiaoping had quite 405 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,720 positive and successful image in Chinese opening to the world, 406 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,400 but until the appearance of Xi Jinping maybe China wasn't strong enough 407 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,480 to have such a strong person as its leader. 408 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,880 Xi Jinping's taking over power, the way in which he came to power, 409 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:05,280 as one of the descendants of the Chinese political elite, 410 00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:09,640 but the way in which it was promoted in China, which we might find strange, 411 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:15,120 as we see as one-party, autocratic state, but it was pointed out that 412 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:20,520 he gained power meritocratically, all emphasized his work experience 413 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,680 at different levels, somehow he was slowly perfecting his ruling skills, 414 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,480 this is one side of his portrait. His wife is also quite important, 415 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,480 who was more famous than him, she was renowned member of 416 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,600 of the orchestra of the Chinese People's Army, 417 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:39,880 simply a well-known and well-loved personality, 418 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,920 a strong woman, women have been very, very strong since the eighties. 419 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,400 So, the two of them really was an ideal couple for that new chapter 420 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:53,560 in China, when it opened to the world, it developed in the nineties, 421 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,560 then it joined World Trade Organization, 422 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,760 and exactly somewhere when Xi Jinping came to power, in early 2010, 423 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:08,400 it was the right time for this. Then, it became possible... 424 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,360 How shall I put it? He actually shaped a lot of what had been 425 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,520 in the Chinese public until then. Xi Jinping's school of thought 426 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,720 then became popular, Xi Jinping's doctrine, and for the first time, 427 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:22,440 this becomes part of Chinese Constitution. 428 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,880 Since Mao Tse-Tsung, it hadn't happened that thoughts of certain 429 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,360 politician enter a public document of People's Republic of China. 430 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,240 We have discussed what happened during his visit, but I would like to 431 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,920 mention one thing that didn't happen. Here we enter into the segment of 432 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,880 this show entitled 'Why Stefan was wrong?' 433 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,360 Namely, I had envisaged and announced that the visit to 434 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,160 Chinese Cultural Center would be an essential part of the official 435 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:54,720 visit of Chinese President to Serbia. Within 24 hours, maybe it's not so 436 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,640 feasible to go to Smederevo, let alone Bor, but the issue of 437 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,960 NATO bombing of Chinese Embassy was not omitted. 438 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:10,440 I would like to ask you and to hear your response, 439 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:15,840 whether we expected that this issue will be more thorougly inspected, 440 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:21,040 that anniversary, Chinese Cultural Centre, compared to what we got. 441 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,200 Chinese Cultural Center as a place of former Chinese Embassy. -Yes. 442 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:32,280 A place where a monument was erected paying tribute to the Chinese victims 443 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,120 when the Embassy was hit during the air raids... 444 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,360 I have to say that I won't be so sure in giving my answer to this, 445 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,600 but I was 50 percent sure that it will be implemented in the visit. 446 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,760 Namely, no research approach can be so sure as to claim that it will be 447 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,160 like that for sure, but I was half way certain that it will happen. 448 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,400 Maybe it was positive that it didn't happen, as having in mind Chinese 449 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:02,720 history in the long run, I am not referring only to PRC but to what 450 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,040 we regard as China, since the prehistoric times, they are known 451 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,480 for their balancing policy and a long-term perspective of things, 452 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:16,520 focusing on the future. That's what Chinese cherish from time immemorial. 453 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,440 It is a good example of that balance, in my opinion. 454 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:25,440 In his op-ed piece in Politika, Xi Jinping pointed out this anniversary 455 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,000 and strongly condemned it. The media simply exploded. 456 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,040 They were in a state of shock as he condemned the attack on the 457 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,200 Chinese Embassy, I don't know whether you followed up on this. 458 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,560 What would have happened if he visited the place, you know. 459 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,160 This would be the only topic. Instead of doing so, he just 460 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:46,200 clearly condemned the attack, as in 1999, all were eager to see 461 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,640 what would happen next, and China just said 'Fine' and got stronger... 462 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:51,640 And it has been strenghtening for the last two decades. 463 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,280 So, that's how I perceive it, throughout Chinese history, 464 00:31:55,800 --> 00:32:00,280 this relationship that they had with their feudal states is well known, 465 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:05,160 but people disregard the fact that China always had assessed 466 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,440 the strength of the other party. So, jut as many countries in Asia 467 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:14,320 paid tribute to imperial China, thus China had inferior relations 468 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,040 with some powerful surrounding tribes and peoples, 469 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:19,840 as well as with some of them who later ruled China. 470 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,520 We are familiar with the Mongols, along with Manchurians, but what 471 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,920 seems to be interesting, both Mongols and Manchurians, once they conquer 472 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,720 China, had become more Chinese than the original Chinese people, 473 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,680 because they saw the good sides of many of those ways of management. 474 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:39,320 So, this is positive thinking, we are not focusing on bad things, 475 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,960 having right balance is another thing worth learning from the Chinese. 476 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,040 Instead of using some pathos or drama, they clearly say what they think, 477 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,880 and we now turn to the future and go from there, making next steps. 478 00:32:53,520 --> 00:33:01,920 The approach taken while dealing with China as a state present in 479 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:07,720 certain region, simply must be taken into account since we try to perceive 480 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,800 Chinese activities through our eyes, we put them in our context and we 481 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:17,800 try to perceive it through a familiar environment, 482 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:23,360 method of action known to us, in general, while they bring 483 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,400 something completely new, completely different, compared to what we got 484 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:32,920 used to, and much time will pass by, I believe, until we find it possible 485 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,240 to recognize certain element of Chinese actions on autopilot. 486 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,920 When we are at the point of recognizing, I would like to 487 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:43,360 bring our conversation to a conclusion. 488 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,280 At the beginning, we had mentioned steel friendship, iron friendship, 489 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:51,400 we have mentioned building Community for Shared Future, 490 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:58,000 terminology that our scientists also use in cooperation with 491 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,360 People's Republic of China, especially high political officials, 492 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:07,880 is always drawn up in a way that it presents positive sides of 493 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,880 diplomatic relations that are being developed at that point of time. 494 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:20,680 Through the Chinese qualifying of bilateral relations, we've mentioned 495 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,280 some aspects of it, but I would like to delve deeper in this issue, 496 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,320 we can perceive the relations established with a single state. 497 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:36,760 Is it an established practise, to what extent is it noticeable 498 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:41,240 in some other part of the world, and we've mentioned Serbia, 499 00:34:41,720 --> 00:34:43,600 but if there is something that you would like to add about Serbia, 500 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:48,360 I would like to hear that, too. -This is now the moment in time 501 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,640 where we turn to what research and science can offer us, 502 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,200 maybe we can model the future based on the past in this case. 503 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:57,880 There is a theory of international relations that I implement in the 504 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:02,600 analysis pertaining to this issue. This theory tries to postulate what 505 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,400 it is that makes certain types of world order last. 506 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:11,480 Fine, we have powerful USA for certain period of time, especially 507 00:35:11,720 --> 00:35:13,520 after the Second World War. But this is shorter than a century. 508 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:18,600 In Chinese perception, it is so tiny. Christian Smith is the author of this 509 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,880 theory that I try to implement on this particular issue. 510 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:27,600 It deals with the ways in which we formally define cultural diversity 511 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,360 in societies, which ethnic groups can even be registered as ethnic groups, 512 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,120 what religions exist and so on... I apply it to foreign relations, 513 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,520 where when we deal with Serbia, we can see totally different approach 514 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,960 when it comes to European Union and China, they are not comparable 515 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,000 as the first one is a community and the latter is a state... 516 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,080 But in the sense of global powers, those entities can be compared. 517 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,360 So, we have EU which is a community, above all, an economic community, 518 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,800 which in a rather passive manner says 'Fine, those are conditions 519 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,120 under which you may join us, and that's it. 520 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,880 There are lots of things in a public discourse, cooperation, steps to 521 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,640 be taken, opening chapters, it sounds just like a company, 522 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,600 so when you acquire a company, you go checking things... 523 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,360 KPI, key performance indicator... -Exactly, we talk about KPIs. 524 00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:15,760 We had a Europe Day, that I believe was tremendously efficient in this 525 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,840 sense, where we pointed out that Europe is our home, 526 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:23,440 we are the same community, and so on. But generally, this is not so. 527 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,320 EU simply cherishes a passive approach towards that. 528 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,040 China, on the other hand, especially for the last decade, 529 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,800 turned to a very proactive approach, part of a turnaround in China's 530 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,160 foreign policy in general, which was rather passive until it gained 531 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,880 economic strength, and for the last decade, it becomes pro-active. 532 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:47,840 That seems to be working. As we mentioned earlier, 533 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,800 it is really a big thing that someone of such a high profile 534 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,080 had visited Serbia, and it is rather big when someone of such weight 535 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,600 says that we are friendly nations. Whatever that friendship might be, 536 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:58,280 let alone a steel friendship. 537 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,000 So, this is really a vacuum that is being made in those relations, 538 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:03,480 along the lines that we've come to the solution to everything, 539 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:05,760 we are in our own state, we will decide which direction to take, 540 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,040 but when we look at things on some broader historical level, 541 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,840 it is questionable what will happen with this vacuum. 542 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,280 EU allignment procedure lasts for decades now, 543 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,680 we are all part of Europe in a geographical sense, 544 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,600 but we are left behind, waiting at the doors of EU, 545 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,920 and a country appears that offers a kind of alternative solution, 546 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:30,360 saying that it will support Serbia. We are now entering a complex 547 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,480 issue who are the actual players in our political lives, do we regard 548 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:39,840 states as individual entities, but in principle, it is interesting 549 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:45,840 that there are approaches claiming that this proactive relationship on 550 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,760 the part of China is something that can be more efficient in the long run. 551 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:54,640 When we perceive things through historical data, any of the entities 552 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,720 that were based primarily on freedom, democracy, self-awareness, 553 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:02,120 self-determination, saying that state will not interfere in this, 554 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:08,920 often failed to survive. It turns out that societies need that someone 555 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:16,480 from the top deals with these things that we regard as personal, private. 556 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:26,240 Some level of social relations regulation should be state led. 557 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:33,280 This is a rather interesting point to finalize our conversation. 558 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:38,000 I would like to add, and you feel free to comment on it, that diverse 559 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:43,280 public opinion surveys show that in Serbia when people are asked 560 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:49,480 whether they want democratic state, or one with less democratic features, 561 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:54,800 we can call it differently, majority of people is in favour of democracy. 562 00:38:55,720 --> 00:38:58,520 But when you ask them what kind of leader they actually want, 563 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:04,080 the responses come to a strong leader, capable of bringing some 564 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,560 tough decisions, that can manage the system as such, 565 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,680 and precisely in that dichotomy, maybe primarily tied with the other 566 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:17,560 aspect, we can recognize the readiness not only of our state 567 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:23,200 but our society as well, to perceive People's Republic of China positively. 568 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,920 We discussed it in the interviews with some other interlocutors, 569 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,640 People's Republic of China is currently more popular in Serbia 570 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:33,440 than Russian Federation. -Depends on research... 571 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,600 It depends on the research, but let me rephrase it a bit... 572 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:41,040 PRC is less negatively perceived compared to Russian Federation. 573 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,040 More people perceives Russia in a negative way at this moment, 574 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:45,920 compared to the perception of People's Republic of China. 575 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:50,560 China has more of that idle neutral perception as a state. 576 00:39:52,720 --> 00:39:56,760 It is a fact that those features of the social system, its efficiency, 577 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:03,760 finally, friendly relations, lack of direct conflicts between Yugoslavia 578 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:08,000 and then Serbia and Montenegro, and then Serbia, on one part, 579 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,440 and China, on the other, forms good ground for using different symbols, 580 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,920 many of which are also expressed through linguistic elements, 581 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:21,160 bringing us to the threshold of what we are waiting to see the results of, 582 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,160 which is this Community of a Shared Future. 583 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,240 Maybe our next podcast series will be entitled 584 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,240 'Understanding Community of a Shared Future'. 585 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:36,960 Until that happens, I would like to tell you once again that it was 586 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,600 a great pleasure to host you... -I would just like to add something. 587 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,320 Yes, I will give you opportunity to share anything else with us. 588 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:52,920 I have truly enjoyed our conversation so I would like to give you a chance 589 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,640 to sum up this conversation, and I'll take care of the rest. 590 00:40:58,720 --> 00:41:01,040 Sorry for interrupting you... -It's fine, really. 591 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:07,280 I find very interesting what you've mentioned so I would like to follow 592 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,120 up on that... I deal with China through that linguistic aspect, 593 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:12,880 but in order to learn something about Chinese society and culture. 594 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,720 When it comes to democracy and strong leaders, not to mention the 595 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,400 paradox of America's current selection of leadership, 596 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,880 US system and potential presidential candidates, as for this continuity and 597 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,560 a holistic approach, it happened numerous time to me when 598 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:35,400 discussing things with my colleagues within EU, Western Europe, that is, 599 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,520 when they tell me that EU is such a brilliant project, given that 600 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,600 Europe is at peace for decades, except for the wars in Western 601 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:45,280 Balkans, then I ask myself what do you think by that... 602 00:41:45,720 --> 00:41:47,880 For someone who comes from that region, this is unacceptable. 603 00:41:48,240 --> 00:41:50,960 It is unacceptable for us to have a perception, well everything's fine, 604 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:53,120 but something happen in the Western Balkans... 605 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:57,760 And it lasted for 15 years, more or less... -Exactly. 606 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:03,640 With such a serious consequences. Chinese offer a kind of alternative. 607 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:09,480 But it also has negative sides. It was unimaginable to me when 608 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:11,840 I discussed things with Chinese, to what extent they accept 609 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:15,400 restrictions on personal freedoms for the sake of public order and peace. 610 00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:19,920 This is part with which we will have to deal within this 611 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,560 Community of Shared Future. We'll see how it will turn up. 612 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:25,120 Cultural and civilisational difference... 613 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:31,880 What I seem to hear from many interlocutors from Europe and 614 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,920 other states, we are often under impression that 615 00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:41,880 EU doesn't perceive Western Balkan as a part of Common Community. 616 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:47,320 No pun intended. I haven't had in mind the Community of Shared Future. 617 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:53,360 But from the very beginning, Serbia was regarded as a 618 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:55,800 part of Europe for People's Republic of China. 619 00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,800 From their perspective, Serbia is Western European country, 620 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:06,320 treated in the same way, on different level though, due to its size, and the 621 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:10,280 size of our market, right from the start, as the western countries, 622 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,320 so now in some elements it has been raised to a higher level, 623 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:19,880 than in partner states from EU or in the European Union. 624 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,720 It is understandable that this pleases the political elite as well, 625 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:32,200 it pleases some people that are not so directed towards China, 626 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:39,280 but it is certainly a good foundation for further development of relations 627 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,400 that was the case so far, I don't see any reason for 628 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:48,680 disrupting bilateral relations. In what forms and models, 629 00:43:49,240 --> 00:43:53,680 it remains to be seen, but I am confident that it will develop in 630 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,920 future as it was so far, that is to say, 631 00:43:57,240 --> 00:43:59,040 in the direction of further improving bilateral relations. 632 00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,480 That's how it should be. Tomislav Nikolic was present 633 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,000 at the Belgrade airport, Boris Tadic still attends gatherings on China, 634 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:10,600 although he is perceived as a political opponent of rulling party, 635 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:12,920 he is present with representatives of our government in China, given 636 00:44:13,240 --> 00:44:14,920 that he was President of Serbia when bilateral relations were initiated. 637 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,400 This is a good lesson to learn. We don't have to act so rigidly. 638 00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:20,720 I don't mind what happened before and after my reign... 639 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,400 If we are going to talk about general good, about the state, 640 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:25,400 the state of Serbia is right here, whoever might be in power. 641 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:31,120 I think we cannot finish this conversation on a better note. 642 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,360 Jelena, many thanks again. I look forward to continuing 643 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,680 these conversations off the record, and until next time, 644 00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:43,680 I think this will be a good material for gaining an important perspective 645 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,960 on bilateral relations and on the Chinese system as such. 646 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:48,720 Thank you very much.