Welcome to new episode of podcast 'Understanding the Steel Friendship'.
As always, we are available on You Tube Channel NM New Magazine,
as well as on all relevant podcast platforms such as Spotify, Deezer
and Apple podcast. You can also follow us on Instagram profile of
New Magazine, while we are available on Tik Tok, too.
In the eleventh episode of this podcast, I have the opportunity
to talk to Jelena Gledic, senior proofreader and sinologist at
the Faculty of Philology. We have discussed
the visit of Xi Jinping to Belgrade in May 2024,
but we have also covered other issues such as the level of
diplomatic relations of China with the countries worldwide,
what does Steel Friendship mean from the linguistic point of view,
so we might be getting a definite answer after eleven episodes...
I believe that you'll hear other interesting things in our discussion.
However, this is penultimate episode in this series, but
you can always visit our You Tube Channel, Spotify and Deezer feed,
in order to watch any of the previous episodes, as I am certain that in the
ten episodes already posted, you've been able to find lots of
interesting things pertaining to the Serbian - Chinese relations,
as well as Chinese presence on the international scene.
I'm sure that the following two episodes will bring new information.
So, to cut the story short, Jelena Gledic, Faculty of Philology,
I'm certain you'll find our discussion highly interesting.
Jelena, good afternoon. -Good afternoon.
Welcome to the podcast Undestanding the Steel Friendship.
I'm glad to have the chance to host you today. -Thank you.
You're a senior proofreader and sinologist, you are currently
engaged in the Faculty of Philology, so you deal with China from a rather
interesting and specific perspective. Until now, I knew you only by hearsay,
then we had an opportunity to meet among other things, when I arranged
this interview, so for a start, I would like to thank you from
the bottom of my heart, on diligent preparation for taking part in this
interview. We finish slowly this podcast in the first season.
It's true that we used to ask all of our guests what the phrase
Understanding Steel Friendship might mean for them, as this is
the name of our podcast, we will now be in a position to hear
an expert opinion, as the language is the focus of your work.
So, it would be good to hear an opinion that wouldn't be biased.
Only and exclusively subjective under these circumstances.
I'll stay true to the traditional first question as a good luck charm,
and I would like to ask you how do you percieve or
understand the phrase of the Steel Friendship?
First of all, thank you for inviting me to join you here.
It is great pleasure to be here today, as the story begins with
the title of this podcast, so we could start with that...
I would like to point to two aspects when I hear the phrase of Steel
Friendship and how I perceive it from my personal perspective.
One aspect is linguistic one, and the other is a broader aspect, as to how
Chinese treat foreign policy. As for the term itself,
this is the term or phrase that is being used in China for long.
It means some really close friendship, relations with certain country that
implies good economic relations. Those are the states that offer
support to China when major issues are concerned.
In the first place, which was insisted upon, it was Pakistan, followed by
other states that used to support China back in the fifties and
sixties and seventies, those were mainly countries from Asia and
Chinese neighbouring countries. So, those were the states that
established both political and economic cooperation
with China and Yugoslavia was not among them.
There are some connections with the name of Tito, as Tito in Chinese
sounds like Tiantang, the same tian from the steel friendship with China,
so there is a link that seems to be established subsequently,
but this is a linguistic term that is earlier being used for a number
of different coutries. Then, we took adventage of it, particularly when
our steel mill fell into the hands of the Chinese, so this term has
been applied to Serbia as well, along with establishing good relations
since 2000, then this steel friendship marked the beginning of political
cooperation between China and Serbia and it was translated as steel
rather than iron friendship, which is in the basis of the word...
We needed it to be a steel friendship because of our steel mill...
In English, some authors use the phrase steel friendship, which is
the title of this podcast, but we should bear in mind that discourse
in China has been greatly polarized, so we are being sided without our
consent in this economic global conflict that exists and when we
use one term or the other, we are taking sides of parties.
So, when we say in English 'iron friendship', we use Chinese
terminology and when we say 'steel friendship', then we use
American terminology and everything that goes with it.
So, I would like to cast some light to this side, and on the other
hand, Chinese use these terms for international relations,
they are rather proactive with this regard, and it is part of their
proactive policy for the last ten to fifteen years.
It also has something to do with Chinese different views on
propaganda issue, and the role of media in China, but maybe
I'm being too broad for a start...
No, I find it really interesting. What seems to be the point,
is that sometimes we are not even aware that the phrases we use
often puts us on one or other side. So, we side with someone...
That's right... -Even if we don't want to...
Yes, that's right... So, one of my desires today here is to assist
in establishing this mutual understanding.
I am under impression that there is no understanding, it's fine not to
agree with something when we understand it fully, but I'm not sure
that we understand each other. Goor example is Belt and Road
Initiative, that was originally named 'One Belt and One Road', it was
interpreted from Chinese as 'One Belt, One Road', than the question was
posed whether China would like to establish hegemony...
That is one single road, so they corrected themselves along the
lines for better purpose, making it one of many economic trajectories...
Of the infrastructure that they built in the belt from China to the West
Europe, so they officially changed the title of the initiative into
Belt and Road Initiative, instead of One Belt, One Road...
Still, some people use old title, abbreviation OBOR instead of BRI.
I would like a follow up on the words that you've just mentioned.
Do Chinese officials do that, or Chinese Communist Party,
those who are in charge of this initiative in order to improve their
image on the global level? -Absolutely.
Their idea is to present themselves in the best possible way.
For the last couple of years, Xi Jinping himself used to say
that China has to tell the story about China well.
They think that up till now, the world spoke on their behalf,
and that now is the time for them to speak about themselves...
This is directly involved with the issue how propaganda is being
perceived in China, as the word propaganda is the same word
for publicity, make something public. Meaning systematic dissemination of
ideas, which would be any kind of existing formal education system,
so propaganda doesn't have bad conotation in Chinese.
It also goes for the media. The goal of the media is not necessarily to
give objective overall information to the Chinese citizens, but they
should offer relevant information and maintain public order and peace.
From European perspective, it sounds rather scandalous.
Due to censorship, we think that all should be released...
But their perception is different, along with the role of the media.
So, it is rather paradoxical when someone says that the state
controls media in China when it is completely natural in China.
It goes without saying that the state controls the media, you know.
The same as the state controls formal educational system.
This is also very interesting to me to what extent the language itself
is the embodiment of a civilizational determinant,
but also determinant of political system, as such...
What you mentioned in the end, for liberal democracies from the West,
and we can discuss the level of their liberal standpoints...
and the level of democracy in those states... -That's right, exactly...
Freedom of expression is possibly the first principle by which
they should be guided, leaving service information for public broadcasters...
Along with the actions of public importance, and this goes as a
default in China, those are initial settings. -Exactly...
I would like to point out to something that is both global and regional
but primarily national context. We had opportunity to talk
outside of this studio, we had closely followed the visit of
Chinese President to Serbia on May seventh and eighth...
I would like us to touch upon several issues, but for a start,
I would like to hear what were most interesting elements for you,
what attracted your attention the most during the visit that
lasted less than 24 hours, but it was rather efficient and effective.
And very interesting, by all means. From different points of view...
While preparing for this interview, I had singled out three points.
The first is those inscriptions that were all over the city.
For someone dealing with language, culture and society, this was rather
interesting, as this was very noticeable, given that a day
after his visit, it was Europe Day, then we hosted guests from Ukraine,
that no one heard anything about... while Chinese President's visit
was so noticeable, and we all heard about it.
It was interesting to me as in my previous researches,
it was determined that such things can affect the perception of public
opinion, we have conducted a study on the perception of China all over
Europe, and I inserted some questions for Serbia, so it turned out that
people have quite a wrong perception of our relations with China.
People who used to live in Yugoslavia back in the nineties until nowadays,
seem to think that we had best relations with China during Tito's
reign and today is the same. There is no awareness at all
that, for instance, Tadic is the one commencing cooperation with China.
You talk about the people from Europe in general? -People from Serbia...
Nationally representative sample of Serbian population is simply
under the influence of what it sees in the media, in public,
that Serbia had great relations with China, followed by no relations,
and then again great relations. There is no sense of historical
reality, how was it back in the nineties, and how it developed...
So, this is why I found those inscriptions rather interesting.
That is something that stays in mind, that is something people'll remember.
That to which importance is attached.
Second moment I find very interesting is the presence of Tomislav Nikolic
at the airport, at welcoming reception.
He is someone who's not so present in our public life,
but he was the one who hosted Xi Jinping back in 2016.
This is good as our people realize how much continuity is important
to the Chinese, this is not a bad thing to learn and adopt,
that this continuity is being very much appreciated in
the Chinese society. Third, which was rather sad,
and which was earlier mentioned in this podcast, it is Serbian media
being so polarized, so media reported on this visit in a very
polarized way, as if they lacked considering the public interest.
As if it was all considered from the perspective of our local policy,
pro-government or anti-government. In one of your previous podcasts,
you mentioned that we could lose chances to make something
good out of it, good for Serbia, whatever that means,
for the common good. On the other hand,
some problems might pass, as are perceived as criticism
aimed at the government, and are ad hoc being rejected as criticism,
and they are not considered as potential real existing problems.
I have two side questions that I would like to pose now...
One pertains to the inscriptions I would like to go back to...
If I gathered it right, as we realized in the previous podcasts,
that I am not fluent in Chinese, so I'm not reading Chinese either,
have you gone into details as to detect what those inscriptions mean?
The rumour has it that these were sayings from Chinese culture and
tradition that Xi Jinping used to say in his public appearances,
it can be, it doesn't have to be true...
So, if you are familiar with the meaning, great, if not, I find
rather interesting symbolism and visual presentation of China
on such a high level, do you think that people might find it repulsive?
When you try to introduce something to someone and that is quite unknown,
do you think it could be a bit counterproductive,
regardless of this relationship... And this is my next question...
Not whether it is in favor of local politicians or not, but simply
this is not established practice at least in our environment.
As for the content of inscriptions, if there were some of Xi's thoughts,
I haven't recognized them, it was something along the lines
''Welcome our dear Chinese friends, welcome respected Chinese friends'',
those were inscriptions all over. Now, we have reached a very
interesting question as this is something quite common for China,
when you go to China, they communicate with inscriptions,
posters and billboards, and this is something that goes back prior to
Communist China, but still it is very characteristic of Communist China
and it is being linked to it, especially in our region.
When I exchanged messages with my colleagues during the visit,
they mentioned North Korea, so many people found it repulsive,
who disliked it. Still, many people find it quite agreeable.
This opens question to which I don't have an answer...
This is the question in which direction we are heading?
It is obvious that we established political cooperation with China,
it is obvious that our ruling party cooperates with them thoroughly,
there is mutual exchange of knowledge and principles,
so it is questionable how we will proceed developing as a society.
Among the initial questions that were raised during the visit was
whether it is established practise in Serbia to welcome one president
at such a high level, with such diplomatic honors...
My initial response would be that we don't have such a visit on a
such a high level so often... -Exactly, we are inexperienced.
This is the first thing.
Secondly, Chinese diaspora here in Serbia is not so large.
Some say we speak about 20 to 30.000 of Chinese citizens.
It also depends what we consider diaspora, whether they are here
temporary, or not... But that's another topic.
I don't know whether people had the opportunity to see the way
in which Chinese President was welcomed in Paris, prior to Belgrade,
involving a procession that went through the city...
Containing Chinese flags and inscriptions addressed to Chinese
President on a positive note, as well as in Budapest, where
he departed from Belgrade, where symbolism was pretty much the same.
So, the practice, that is, the action of our political leadership when it
comes to welcoming Chinese President was on the same level as in those two
other countries which organized welcome, and the question whether
some people find it repulsive, if it happens now and never again,
then it is a question what was the point of it.
But if it is a trend when there are no such visits,
then it would be interesting to see social reactions then.
When it comes to other visits, I find it rather interesting when
some media, mainly international, American media, wrote that only
Serbia and Hungary rolled out the red carpet for Xi Jinping,
while Macron was rolling out the red carpet in that moment.
This is unbelievably paradoxical. So, I completely agree with you.
Showing diplomatic honors to a politician of such a profile was due.
That's why I was glad that Tomislav Nikolic was present,
as it means that we understand the context and what is important.
I would like to consider it more broadly, not only in the context
of China, this is something I cannot determine whether it was good or not,
we see it in another details. We witness that Serbian flag
has become more prominent, it is part of different approach in public sphere
where you have certain symbols, which are meaningful, so it will
help for the society to be perceived differently, as well as the state and
nation and everything else that goes along with it.
So, it is interesting to closely follow, anyway.
There were so many interesting details during the visit, but what
seems to be the specific result of the visit itself
is a set of agreements, interstate agreements and contracts that
Serbia has signed with the People's Republic of China.
Larger part of it related to different forms of sectoral cooperation,
namely we signed 28 international agreements and an interstate one.
What seems to be significant to mention is the fact that since 2016,
Serbia and China had established a comprehensive strategic partnership,
that specifies the level of diplomatic relations that China develops with
certain countries, and after this visit, we have been informed that
Serbia has now entered the level of cooperation called
a Community with a shared future. I don't want to go into diplomatic
relations, but I would like to make people who listen and watch our
podcast familiar with the slogan Community With a Shared Future
in a linguistic point of view from the perspective of PR of China,
and how come we have that now on the table for signing?
Well, yes... Dedication to joint community building, yes...
That's the phrase, exactly... I would lik to add that prior to 2016
we had strategic partnership followed by deepened strategic partnership.
I mention it as it is important, given that it is one layer in this building
of hierarchical foreign relations that China is conducting.
This is a part of it, and it is relatively new in a way,
Vietnam signed the same contract with China last year,
but Serbia is certainly the first European country to sign it.
As I mentioned earlier, I am working on a classification of all relations,
because that network is not linear, but is interesting for this term,
it is not a new one, so the phrase Community of a Shared Future or
Building A Community With A Shared Future For Mankind, as it's sometimes
called, is not a new phrase, it was mentioned in the Serbian media,
also in the statements of Chinese officials for the last decade,
it is written into the Constitution of China,
it appeared prior to Xi Jinping gained power, during the reign
of President Hu Jintao, but Xi Jinping made it his philosophical motto,
we had earlier Mao Tse-Tung's thought and now we have Xi Jinping's thought.
It is being studied as a political doctrine, and he made it one of
the very important milestones of Chinese policy.
A Community With A Shared Future For Mankind is Chinese
approach in which they are actually trying to respond to the challenges
of economic globalization, and what I am saying now pertains to the
Chinese theory, so I am not spreading any kind of propaganda here...
I am trying to present to people what is in the documents...
There are lots of documents, there's Inistitute in Beijing dealing with it,
White Paper on Chinese approaches to it...
What seems to be their idea? Peaceful and sustainable development,
focusing on challenges that cannot be answered by just one nation...
This includes political, economic, security, cultural and ecological
issues where several nations should get together in order to respond to
all those worldly global challenges primarily due to economic flows.
China had the Belt and Road Initiative that is a decade old,
but I want to mention that they have three new global initiatives piloting.
We need another show to explain what that means, and some regard
it as a new propaganda term, but it makes sense in Chinese
foreign policy, so they now have Development Global Initiative,
Global Security Initiative and Global Civilization Initiative,
which is the newest one, those are Chinese approaches
to the world order, let's say... This is linked to another concept
for which it is questionable whether China returns to it,
and it is called Tiant ng, it is not being translated,
but it means ''everything under heaven's cap'',
this is a concept from ancient China, if you watched the film
''Hero'', I don't want to be spoiler, but it is all that matters.
Chinese tried to establish policies that would ''work'' having in mind
all the existing world. Ideally, that means that
solutions will be found, it is being translated as 'win-win',
but in China, it is to everyone's satisfaction, every person should
benefit from it, but it also includes potential risks,
and being as consistent as possible in those policies.
A lot of doubts were caused by whether Serbia has entered now
into a new political community, actually, with PR of China,
and I would like to offer my perspective and response.
Namely, similar to 2016, now we established foundation for further
development of our relations, how will Serbia benefit from
Community of Shared Future, or by building this community,
will largely depend on the next steps in implementing in the near future.
Signing it means nothing special, but I believe that we had already
seen some of the results, I would like to mention the voting in the
UN General Assembly, when it comes to the Resolution on Srebrenica,
when China got out of its comfort zone,
given that it is known that it is standard for China that when
it is about something that doesn't concern PRC, it stays away from it.
And taking openly one side, as China hasn't abstained,
but voted against the Resolution, this is, according to my opinion,
the first concrete result of this Community of Shared Future.
What will happen in future, I guess we will cooperate in other spheres
and elements, but it certainly haven't come out of the blue,
but it is part of Chinese culture, tradition and philosophy
in the last instance, so I would like to pose an additional question here,
referring to what you've already mentioned, to make Xi Jinping's
political thought closer to audience, as it had become an established part
of ideology and the way of establishing political system
in the People's Republic of China.
I will try to do that, but first, I would like to comment briefly
that you are absolutely right, that this is a new chance for
political cooperation, and it is also important to mention another thing,
that this idea of Community of Shared Future has been contested and
challenged in many different ways, since it has been presented,
and one of the ideas is that China is thereby trying to threaten
the current world order with international organizations,
and multipolar powerful world. China, on the other hand, claims
that its aim is quite the opposite, that they want to point to the
inconsistencies in the work of international organizations,
and to try to establish holistic multipolar world, instead of a
quasi multipolar world, as they used to call it, as the power lies solely
in Western Europe and North America.
So, it is not accidental that Serbia is the first country, as we all know
that among other things that tie Serbia and China, there's bombing
of Chinese Embassy, so NATO has been perceived as a common
adversary, to put it like that. So, from this perspective, it isn't
strange that we established such kind of cooperation with China.
As for Xi Jinping's thought, if I'm not wrong... -Yes.
How the transformation took place. -This is rather complicated issue,
but I will try to sum it up. The entire development and course
of Chinese politics since 1949, when actually People's Republic
of China was established, had some characteristics that we know,
related to communist systems, but it resembled greatly the way
in which China evolved for the last 5000 years,
so this Chinese continuity that is being mentioned, when they talk
of some 5000 years of uninterrupted tradition,
this isn't surely geographic continuity, neither is it strictly
cultural or historian continuity, as dynasties changed,
and some foreign dynasties reigned, but it is rather kind of philosophical
socio-political continuity, where some ideas or some ways of
organizing society and social relations had its continuity
during whole this period of time. Starting with the First Chinese
Emperor, from the renowned film 'Hero' that united China,
and prior to that, several dynasties that that set postulates of it,
those are referred to as Confucian philosophy,
but it then entered various political structures, it has been changed,
so as I said, this is a rather complex topic.
Why am I telling you all this? So, there was this traditional
Confucianism or Confucian ideology and philosophy,
and then in accordance with Communist systems, there was Mao Tse-Tsong's
thought, and we all know famous red booklet was young people's
reading, and after his death, all the bad things were attributed
to him and his gang of four, his close associates...
However, although we might hold Mao Tse-Tsung accountable for
some negative sides of Chinese history, he hasn't been perceived
in bad way within China, his image is on all banknotes in China, so
he still has positive image there, and after his death, I believe that
no other Chinese leader had such a high place in Chinese history,
I dare say, until Xi Jinping. Deng Xiaoping had quite
positive and successful image in Chinese opening to the world,
but until the appearance of Xi Jinping maybe China wasn't strong enough
to have such a strong person as its leader.
Xi Jinping's taking over power, the way in which he came to power,
as one of the descendants of the Chinese political elite,
but the way in which it was promoted in China, which we might find strange,
as we see as one-party, autocratic state, but it was pointed out that
he gained power meritocratically, all emphasized his work experience
at different levels, somehow he was slowly perfecting his ruling skills,
this is one side of his portrait. His wife is also quite important,
who was more famous than him, she was renowned member of
of the orchestra of the Chinese People's Army,
simply a well-known and well-loved personality,
a strong woman, women have been very, very strong since the eighties.
So, the two of them really was an ideal couple for that new chapter
in China, when it opened to the world, it developed in the nineties,
then it joined World Trade Organization,
and exactly somewhere when Xi Jinping came to power, in early 2010,
it was the right time for this. Then, it became possible...
How shall I put it? He actually shaped a lot of what had been
in the Chinese public until then. Xi Jinping's school of thought
then became popular, Xi Jinping's doctrine, and for the first time,
this becomes part of Chinese Constitution.
Since Mao Tse-Tsung, it hadn't happened that thoughts of certain
politician enter a public document of People's Republic of China.
We have discussed what happened during his visit, but I would like to
mention one thing that didn't happen. Here we enter into the segment of
this show entitled 'Why Stefan was wrong?'
Namely, I had envisaged and announced that the visit to
Chinese Cultural Center would be an essential part of the official
visit of Chinese President to Serbia. Within 24 hours, maybe it's not so
feasible to go to Smederevo, let alone Bor, but the issue of
NATO bombing of Chinese Embassy was not omitted.
I would like to ask you and to hear your response,
whether we expected that this issue will be more thorougly inspected,
that anniversary, Chinese Cultural Centre, compared to what we got.
Chinese Cultural Center as a place of former Chinese Embassy. -Yes.
A place where a monument was erected paying tribute to the Chinese victims
when the Embassy was hit during the air raids...
I have to say that I won't be so sure in giving my answer to this,
but I was 50 percent sure that it will be implemented in the visit.
Namely, no research approach can be so sure as to claim that it will be
like that for sure, but I was half way certain that it will happen.
Maybe it was positive that it didn't happen, as having in mind Chinese
history in the long run, I am not referring only to PRC but to what
we regard as China, since the prehistoric times, they are known
for their balancing policy and a long-term perspective of things,
focusing on the future. That's what Chinese cherish from time immemorial.
It is a good example of that balance, in my opinion.
In his op-ed piece in Politika, Xi Jinping pointed out this anniversary
and strongly condemned it. The media simply exploded.
They were in a state of shock as he condemned the attack on the
Chinese Embassy, I don't know whether you followed up on this.
What would have happened if he visited the place, you know.
This would be the only topic. Instead of doing so, he just
clearly condemned the attack, as in 1999, all were eager to see
what would happen next, and China just said 'Fine' and got stronger...
And it has been strenghtening for the last two decades.
So, that's how I perceive it, throughout Chinese history,
this relationship that they had with their feudal states is well known,
but people disregard the fact that China always had assessed
the strength of the other party. So, jut as many countries in Asia
paid tribute to imperial China, thus China had inferior relations
with some powerful surrounding tribes and peoples,
as well as with some of them who later ruled China.
We are familiar with the Mongols, along with Manchurians, but what
seems to be interesting, both Mongols and Manchurians, once they conquer
China, had become more Chinese than the original Chinese people,
because they saw the good sides of many of those ways of management.
So, this is positive thinking, we are not focusing on bad things,
having right balance is another thing worth learning from the Chinese.
Instead of using some pathos or drama, they clearly say what they think,
and we now turn to the future and go from there, making next steps.
The approach taken while dealing with China as a state present in
certain region, simply must be taken into account since we try to perceive
Chinese activities through our eyes, we put them in our context and we
try to perceive it through a familiar environment,
method of action known to us, in general, while they bring
something completely new, completely different, compared to what we got
used to, and much time will pass by, I believe, until we find it possible
to recognize certain element of Chinese actions on autopilot.
When we are at the point of recognizing, I would like to
bring our conversation to a conclusion.
At the beginning, we had mentioned steel friendship, iron friendship,
we have mentioned building Community for Shared Future,
terminology that our scientists also use in cooperation with
People's Republic of China, especially high political officials,
is always drawn up in a way that it presents positive sides of
diplomatic relations that are being developed at that point of time.
Through the Chinese qualifying of bilateral relations, we've mentioned
some aspects of it, but I would like to delve deeper in this issue,
we can perceive the relations established with a single state.
Is it an established practise, to what extent is it noticeable
in some other part of the world, and we've mentioned Serbia,
but if there is something that you would like to add about Serbia,
I would like to hear that, too. -This is now the moment in time
where we turn to what research and science can offer us,
maybe we can model the future based on the past in this case.
There is a theory of international relations that I implement in the
analysis pertaining to this issue. This theory tries to postulate what
it is that makes certain types of world order last.
Fine, we have powerful USA for certain period of time, especially
after the Second World War. But this is shorter than a century.
In Chinese perception, it is so tiny. Christian Smith is the author of this
theory that I try to implement on this particular issue.
It deals with the ways in which we formally define cultural diversity
in societies, which ethnic groups can even be registered as ethnic groups,
what religions exist and so on... I apply it to foreign relations,
where when we deal with Serbia, we can see totally different approach
when it comes to European Union and China, they are not comparable
as the first one is a community and the latter is a state...
But in the sense of global powers, those entities can be compared.
So, we have EU which is a community, above all, an economic community,
which in a rather passive manner says 'Fine, those are conditions
under which you may join us, and that's it.
There are lots of things in a public discourse, cooperation, steps to
be taken, opening chapters, it sounds just like a company,
so when you acquire a company, you go checking things...
KPI, key performance indicator... -Exactly, we talk about KPIs.
We had a Europe Day, that I believe was tremendously efficient in this
sense, where we pointed out that Europe is our home,
we are the same community, and so on. But generally, this is not so.
EU simply cherishes a passive approach towards that.
China, on the other hand, especially for the last decade,
turned to a very proactive approach, part of a turnaround in China's
foreign policy in general, which was rather passive until it gained
economic strength, and for the last decade, it becomes pro-active.
That seems to be working. As we mentioned earlier,
it is really a big thing that someone of such a high profile
had visited Serbia, and it is rather big when someone of such weight
says that we are friendly nations. Whatever that friendship might be,
let alone a steel friendship.
So, this is really a vacuum that is being made in those relations,
along the lines that we've come to the solution to everything,
we are in our own state, we will decide which direction to take,
but when we look at things on some broader historical level,
it is questionable what will happen with this vacuum.
EU allignment procedure lasts for decades now,
we are all part of Europe in a geographical sense,
but we are left behind, waiting at the doors of EU,
and a country appears that offers a kind of alternative solution,
saying that it will support Serbia. We are now entering a complex
issue who are the actual players in our political lives, do we regard
states as individual entities, but in principle, it is interesting
that there are approaches claiming that this proactive relationship on
the part of China is something that can be more efficient in the long run.
When we perceive things through historical data, any of the entities
that were based primarily on freedom, democracy, self-awareness,
self-determination, saying that state will not interfere in this,
often failed to survive. It turns out that societies need that someone
from the top deals with these things that we regard as personal, private.
Some level of social relations regulation should be state led.
This is a rather interesting point to finalize our conversation.
I would like to add, and you feel free to comment on it, that diverse
public opinion surveys show that in Serbia when people are asked
whether they want democratic state, or one with less democratic features,
we can call it differently, majority of people is in favour of democracy.
But when you ask them what kind of leader they actually want,
the responses come to a strong leader, capable of bringing some
tough decisions, that can manage the system as such,
and precisely in that dichotomy, maybe primarily tied with the other
aspect, we can recognize the readiness not only of our state
but our society as well, to perceive People's Republic of China positively.
We discussed it in the interviews with some other interlocutors,
People's Republic of China is currently more popular in Serbia
than Russian Federation. -Depends on research...
It depends on the research, but let me rephrase it a bit...
PRC is less negatively perceived compared to Russian Federation.
More people perceives Russia in a negative way at this moment,
compared to the perception of People's Republic of China.
China has more of that idle neutral perception as a state.
It is a fact that those features of the social system, its efficiency,
finally, friendly relations, lack of direct conflicts between Yugoslavia
and then Serbia and Montenegro, and then Serbia, on one part,
and China, on the other, forms good ground for using different symbols,
many of which are also expressed through linguistic elements,
bringing us to the threshold of what we are waiting to see the results of,
which is this Community of a Shared Future.
Maybe our next podcast series will be entitled
'Understanding Community of a Shared Future'.
Until that happens, I would like to tell you once again that it was
a great pleasure to host you... -I would just like to add something.
Yes, I will give you opportunity to share anything else with us.
I have truly enjoyed our conversation so I would like to give you a chance
to sum up this conversation, and I'll take care of the rest.
Sorry for interrupting you... -It's fine, really.
I find very interesting what you've mentioned so I would like to follow
up on that... I deal with China through that linguistic aspect,
but in order to learn something about Chinese society and culture.
When it comes to democracy and strong leaders, not to mention the
paradox of America's current selection of leadership,
US system and potential presidential candidates, as for this continuity and
a holistic approach, it happened numerous time to me when
discussing things with my colleagues within EU, Western Europe, that is,
when they tell me that EU is such a brilliant project, given that
Europe is at peace for decades, except for the wars in Western
Balkans, then I ask myself what do you think by that...
For someone who comes from that region, this is unacceptable.
It is unacceptable for us to have a perception, well everything's fine,
but something happen in the Western Balkans...
And it lasted for 15 years, more or less... -Exactly.
With such a serious consequences. Chinese offer a kind of alternative.
But it also has negative sides. It was unimaginable to me when
I discussed things with Chinese, to what extent they accept
restrictions on personal freedoms for the sake of public order and peace.
This is part with which we will have to deal within this
Community of Shared Future. We'll see how it will turn up.
Cultural and civilisational difference...
What I seem to hear from many interlocutors from Europe and
other states, we are often under impression that
EU doesn't perceive Western Balkan as a part of Common Community.
No pun intended. I haven't had in mind the Community of Shared Future.
But from the very beginning, Serbia was regarded as a
part of Europe for People's Republic of China.
From their perspective, Serbia is Western European country,
treated in the same way, on different level though, due to its size, and the
size of our market, right from the start, as the western countries,
so now in some elements it has been raised to a higher level,
than in partner states from EU or in the European Union.
It is understandable that this pleases the political elite as well,
it pleases some people that are not so directed towards China,
but it is certainly a good foundation for further development of relations
that was the case so far, I don't see any reason for
disrupting bilateral relations. In what forms and models,
it remains to be seen, but I am confident that it will develop in
future as it was so far, that is to say,
in the direction of further improving bilateral relations.
That's how it should be. Tomislav Nikolic was present
at the Belgrade airport, Boris Tadic still attends gatherings on China,
although he is perceived as a political opponent of rulling party,
he is present with representatives of our government in China, given
that he was President of Serbia when bilateral relations were initiated.
This is a good lesson to learn. We don't have to act so rigidly.
I don't mind what happened before and after my reign...
If we are going to talk about general good, about the state,
the state of Serbia is right here, whoever might be in power.
I think we cannot finish this conversation on a better note.
Jelena, many thanks again. I look forward to continuing
these conversations off the record, and until next time,
I think this will be a good material for gaining an important perspective
on bilateral relations and on the Chinese system as such.
Thank you very much.