Welcome to the new episode of New Magazine podcast.
Before we start, I would like to invite you to follow us on
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In today's edition, I hosted Aleksandar Matkovic from
Institute of Economic Sciences, and I believe that this episode
will be a good insight into a rather controversial issue, the issue of
Chinese manpower in the Republic of Serbia.
There are numerous myths regarding this issue, I discussed it with Sale
whether Chinese prisoners actually work in Serbia,
what happened with Vietnamese workers two years ago in Zrenjanin,
but what seems to be crucial topic which we discussed is namely
how the state of Serbia, or Serbia's institutions regulate this issue,
and whether it is necessary to do something more in order for official
state policy with this regard to be raised on a higher level.
I am confident that for the next 40 minutes you will witness interesting
discussion, and feel free to follow us on all the mentioned channels,
as well as on social networks, Instagram and Facebook,
I believe you'll find our future work interesting, and you can also watch
all the episodes that we have already posted.
Just to recall, the production of this podcast will not be possible without
the support of the U.S. Embassy to Serbia.
Aleksandar, good afternoon, welcome to New Magazine podcast entitled
Understanding the Steel Friendship.
I am glad that you are here with us today.
We will have the opportunity to discuss several issues
that would complement our previous conversations within this podcast.
You are currently engaged by the Institute of Economic Sciences,
and you deal with the issue related to China in several aspects and
perspectives, what we are going to discuss today is relevant not only
for some specific cases in Serbia but in general, in conceptual sense.
Prior to discussing those issues, I would like to start with posing a
question that I used to pose to all my interlocutors in the past episodes,
in what way do you perceive the concept of a steel friendship,
do you happen to have interpretation that you've developed for the last
fifteen years, since Serbia and China started its cooperation,
whether it's substantial and concrete, or is it mainly on a conceptual level
a phrase that is used for describing relations between Serbia and China?
First of all, thank you for inviting me, the podcast is great,
I have watched most of the episodes. Actually, I haven't done anything for
the last 15 years, but I did some thinking for 15 minutes, on my way
here, so I thought about a bunch of those myths, I'll explain what I mean
by that term in the course of our conversation...
Namely, here we have the idea of China as a powerful country
that rules and takes care of Serbia, Zrenjanin and Bor, and other cities.
We have the term modern slavery, Chinese prisoners being imported
into Serbia, within Belt and Road Initiative as a centralized frame,
where everything's clear and exact, which is so far from truth, actually.
The idea of China as an authoritarian state fits into our foreknowledge of
something that is authoritarian in nature and that we understand.
Those are certain theories of totalitarianism...
From the research perspective, it is interesting to what extent empirical
matters on the ground are quite opposite to the established narrative.
Just to give you an anecdote to illustrate this claim:
Once, I was riding with a female journalist in Zrenjanin, exactly
when the case of Vietnamese workers was going on,
we visited Linglong factory, and she asked me prior to
an interview: Sale, this Belt and Road, how can we get there?
Do we need to turn left, or what? So, I got it how people perceive it.
They regard it as a road, literally, or something authoritarian, which
can be regarded as such, but we don't regard it as a Loan Initiative...
We do not distinguish reality from myth there.
So, when someone asks me about steel friendship, which is the phrase
originating from Yugoslavia, actually, from the 1970s,
from Tito's era, as he had a thawing of relations with the Chinese,
a researcher Sanja Radovic covered this issue in a detail.
This is something that speaks a lot more about us than about China,
so I would like to look at it from that perspective.
We would appreciate if Chinese were our steel friends, it is more to it,
than it's a concept of certain policy that's being implemented. -It's true.
I would like to touch on our main theme, and you gave me a good
introduction that we could cover on a conceptual level, at least.
Apart from that being defined as foreign policy initiative, as a child
of Chinese leader, Xi Jinping, the Belt and Road Initiative is
a way in which China wanted to export its model of economic
development, not only to accelerate progress in the state where it is
present, but also to promote its own progress, as they were not
in a position to do it only through their internal affairs.
So, they resorted to the set of loan arrangements or infrastructure
projects of different nature and in another category,
so they placed their own companies on the international markets,
that would make profit, and on the other hand, banks will reap profits
from interest, after the loans has been placed on the market.
Has the Belt and Road Initiative affected the accelerating economic
development of China, and whether this Initiative brought benefits to
Beijing itself, the state of China, even greater benefits that it had
brought to the countries where these infrastructural projects are being
implemented or those loan arrangements are being placed.
Well, this is a very good question that is being linked to introduction.
I am under impression that we always miss a piece of a puzzle
in the story of China, and that is in what way does China fit into
this European story, or American story, and the response to that
question is the crisis in 2008, I would like to start with that.
I'll try to make the story short. Feel free to interrupt me...
So, what happened back in 2008? We have triple response to the
world crisis, to make it simple. We have banks from United States,
we have austerity measures in the European Union, actually,
but the China offered the third response, which is not mentioned
so often, but has an significant effect that it produces here,
it had done three rounds of fiscal stimulus in the infrastructure, roads
and railways, and for instance, one of my favorite data,
from an economist Vaclav Smil, allegedly favorite columnist of
Bill Gates, where he says that starting with 2011 until 2013,
China had spent 50 percent more cement compared to USA,
in the course of the whole 20th century.
Within three years only. Just to illustrate what it means
when we mention fiscal stimulus, and what does that contribute to?
It brought an overcapacity crisis, if you invest in the steel factory,
and if you make 500.000 billion of those factories, what would happen?
Those products have to find their way to the buyers, from steel to concrete.
I mention those two industries as the leading ones in Chinese progress
for a long period of time, and I think it is still the case.
However, it also causes lots of problems, due to the fact that when
you have overcapacity, that you are not in a position to export,
and the reasons for that can be seen in the case of Europe.
It introduced austerity measures, devastated demand, and made
a problem to China. China has no market to export its goods.
In a small province, for instance, it's not small, I say it on purpose,
Shandong, known to us as a place of origin of Linglong, actually,
in this province, for the last decade, there were such battle of automotive
companies, involving bankruptcy, monopolisation, shutdowns,
especially since Xi Jinping declared war on environmental pollution in 2015
that it led to, how shall I put it, a push effect, or a tendency
to export capital worldwide. Serbia then engages in this,
as it happened parallel with Vucic gaining power in Serbia.
I have an interesting data, I worked on a documentary regarding Linglong,
and the journalist I worked with back then, Maja Nikolic, said to
me at one point, that she researched Vucic and came to a conclusion that
a day after the first rigged elections in 2017, whom Vucic
hosted afterwards? Has he hosted representatives of US Embassy,
or some of his closest associates? No, he invites Linglong.
It's rather interesting. He brings Linglong to Serbia.
I believe that this coordinated stories in Serbia and China
led to the fact that Chinese companies who need to export their goods,
that won't sell their goods or will sell it under huge prices,
and Serbia with Vucic gaining power, and he needs foreign investments
in order to remain in power, excluding European Union.
That is where this steel friendship has been fostered. That's it...
Let's remain on this track for a bit, as you have already mentioned,
regarding the level of Chinese investments, there's tendency
of securing foreign investments, or attracting foreign investments,
so we now face with some other problems, what is our basis for
attracting FDIs, that's actually cheap labor and cheap energy,
so we are faced with a problem of not being in a position to ensure
basic conditions for foreign investors, not because we are not
ready to offer financial and fiscal incentives but because we are not
able to offer high-quality and qualified labor or labor in general
in a way that we used to a decade ago.
Just to mention one situation briefly, we worked on an analysis as BFPE,
the Foundation for a Responsible Society,
two years ago and we visited Priboj.
We know that Priboj is a city with one major company,
which is not currently in such a good condition...
Priboj, as one of the wealthiest industrial cities in former Yugoslavia
is now languishing, trying to attract new foreign investments,
and we asked them how would they feel if a huge Chinese investment
is being announced, that would bring jobs for a thousand workers.
It was sometimes after Zrenjanin and the case with Vietnamese workers
in Linglong, after the first reports on the negative impact on environment,
both in Smederevo and Bor, and they told us that they don't mind where the
investor comes from, adding that if Chinese come, they would have
erected a monument to Xi Jinping, in center of Priboj.
The problem arises when the Chinese come and employ a thousand workers,
as if you count workers from Nova Varos, Prijepolje and Priboj together,
you won't find a thousand of them. It is a fact that Chinese investments
are constantly growing since 2016, if we consider cumulative numbers,
digits in 2023 are decreasing compared to 2022, but whether
we are talking about investments or infrastructure projects and Chinese
companies, it's evident that there are lots of Chinese workers that
came to Serbia exactly due to the fact that we were not in a position
to secure manpower in a volume that was envisaged in the contract.
This is the topic that you paid much attention to, so how do
you perceive situation that we have constant influx of Chinese workers
in the Republic of Serbia, under what basis are they coming as
manpower to our country, and whether it represents a legal threat to our
legislation or manpower? -First of all, I want to say that
the biggest threat for our legislation is that legislation.
I hear all the time in public this story about China as a threat,
so, I think that there is something to it, I won't ignore that fact, but
partly this is rather a cliche, that should be if not rejected
than considered in a more qualified way, so I think that your introduction
was rather correct and to the point, by using that same anecdote...
So it occured to me that those are exactly all the problems pertaining
to Chinese investments and manpower. There are two waves of Chinese
migrations in Serbia, one was in the course of the nineties, it started in
1997 with Milosevic, Chinese from Hungary came to Serbia and opened
department stores... -Some would say, with Mira Markovic, instead.
Indeed... But this can be called the forerunner of steel friendship,
involving Milosevic and Mira Markovic, but it is interesting that this was
totally different type of migration compared to this we have today.
I think that this is rather indicative because when we sign this
Social Security Agreement in 2018, to go back to Vucic's time frame,
this is a year after his assuming the role of the President of Serbia,
this is the moment from which onwards we have a specific type of Chinese
workers, those assigned workers. For instance, in 2017, when Vucic
assumed the role of President, according to the data from the
National Employment Agency, there were only 74 assigned
workers from China to Serbia. I doubt that this is true figure,
those numbers are not in accordance with reality,
but officially, there were 74 those assigned workers.
Several years later, we have 2374 assigned workers in 2021,
it is official data. They enter our country with the valid visas based
on their being assigned workers. There is another type of workers,
that enter the country on the basis of tourist visas.
Those are partially legal or illegal workers, who work for the same
company but haven't been recorded in the National Employment Agency,
and when BIRN published data as to how those job contracts look like,
this is really devastating, chaotic. You are aware of that, surely,
sometimes, literally they had Sharia laws within job contracts,
that were accepted by the National Employment Agency.
It specified that in case of theft, punishment would include cutting
off hands, they're threatened with decapitation in case of strike,
and despite those paragraphs, the Vietnamese entered into strike.
That is how we got to know about that case. It is a rather illustrative
example regarding this issue, and I find it really interesting
that this illustrative case of Vietnamese workers had occurred
due to our lack of electricians and construction workers.
Why is that? Because majority of them migrated to Germany.
We have lots of local examples. This is why our manpower is more
expensive, after all, try to build a house, or renovate it,
you'll see how it looks like. Workers are late, prices are huge...
So, what happens next? Chinese companies, such as Linglong,
as China has such relations with Vietnam, large number of Vietnamese
workers migrate to China, where the prices are cheaper,
they simply established certain relations, just as we have certain
associates, companies, NGOs, with which we cooperate,
we have build certain business relations over the years.
Let's imagine that I manage to open up a company in Thailand,
I need workers, and I think of you, as we go back for many years,
so we start working together as the business is rather profitable,
with so many subsidies, so we work together... That happened in Serbia.
Those Chinese companies with Vietnamese employment agencies
came to Serbia, and to make things even more complicated, Linglong
didn't bring them, but it engaged its Chinese companies and they
engaged Vietnamese companies, which then recruited workers from Vietnam.
To make things even worse,this was approved by our Ambassador
to Jakarta, a SNS member. He issued tourist visas to them,
I suppose that he called someone at the National Employment Agency,
asking them not to be so strict, so 750 workers came to Serbia.
When I went over there, when this case stirred attention,
I had a colleague from Zrenjanin Social Forum,
and the two of us toured workers and their facilities,
together with media, and we saw that there were 750 people there.
However, when I called National Employment Agency, they told me
that they issued 176 work permits. -Slight difference...
Slight difference... So, every third man worked legally and the other
two illegally, then I gathered that this is very complicated matter.
Afterwards, I got in touch with Ombudsman, Ministry of Health,
Ministry of Construction, Zrenjanin Police Administration, all of them
presented us with different digits. Then I found out that our state
doesn't have a clue what has been going on, from the very start.
From Jakarta to Zrenjanin Police Administration, nothing's clear...
After that, BIRN published an article which says that it is modern slavery,
but I would disagree with it a bit, not because that those people are
being treated well, but because I believe that it covers the basic
dynamics of the system itself. Namely, people perceive it as
a work camp, which is there and workers are being exploited in it.
This would also be my perception if I didn't dig deeper in this case.
What really happens here? This entire system, starting
from Jakarta to the Zrenjanin Police Administration is actually a system
that sends new people all the time, usually, there are 20-30 people
per week, so the catch is that those people who were protesting are not
the same people that are here today. So, it is very hard to catch up with
the dynamics of the system as they keep rotating,
and this is actually a good way to prevent information leakage.
It is really hard to research this. I know one researcher from China
Labor Watch who came here and found even a chane of prostitution.
So, this is a potential case for the police, which does not react.
I won't say it's involved in this as I don't have evidence for it,
but they do not seem so promising to me, so this is a rotating system,
this is not a static work camp, or a static system, this is a
rather dynamic system, and digits that I dispose of are
actually official data, but compared to this Vietnamese case, where
two out of three people worked illegally, I believe that in 2021,
there were total number of 5535 workers, which entered Serbia.
I believe that this number is actually three times higher.
If someone would force me to give an exact figure,
I would say that Serbia hosts around 15.000 workers annually.
I would like to discuss Zrenjanin in a more detail, but just to stick
to the figures for a bit and on this institutional frame.
So, several kinds of Chinese companies do business in Serbia.
Chinese department stores are one category, which are present on our
market for decades now. We are familiar with them, and the workers
from those shops work in Serbia for a longer period of time.
Some of them are even born here. There are supply chains, etc.
This is one category of workers that live and work in Serbia. -Yes.
The second category would be workers employed in Chinese companies,
that come here to carry out infrastructure projects.
Meaning highways, bridges in the past, now roads are main
preocuppation, those are Chinese companies that do business here,
which bring their workers, both for the management and labor,
they are here in the course of the project, the workers and
the company, they are rotating and being exchanged regularly.
They are, more or less, completely isolated, situated near highway,
in a correct conditions for this line of work...
Now, we have third kind of workers, those are workers engaged by
Chinese companies who work here on a long term basis.
Zrenjanin was the most illustrative case for this, we'll elaborate on it.
We have a kind of accommodation camp in Smederevo, as well...
One of our former guests, Nikola Krstic from Smederevo,
went for a visit in one such establishment near Sartid,
that is to say, Smederevo Steel Mill, while the largest number of workers
actually is situated in Bor today. The newly opened mine over there
employs exclusively Chinese manpower.
What seems to be rather specific in the whole story is that this is
quite detached from our supervision, from the entrance into the country,
to the ways in which their working rights are being protected,
the ways in which their employer treats them, where they are
accommodated, whether they have basic not only working but also living
conditions, we had certain reports on the work accidents, so question
was raised whether enough attention is paid to the safety at work...
What I actually wanted to ask you, I would like to straighten things out,
namely this issue of social policy that you touched upon earlier.
Who has jurisdiction over Chinese workers in Serbia?
Maybe you could elaborate further on the phrase assigned workers...
This is a rather intriguing concept, and the difference between the
contract we signed with China vs contracts with other countries.
So, who has jurisdiction over Chinese workers and whether
Serbia as a state or its institutions, can, if needs be, protect Chinese
workers, if there's a situation that they need to be protected?
This is actually one of my favorite myths, I believe that so far a dozen
journalists asked me the following question: Hey, Sale, we work on
an exclusive story, we believe that there are some Chinese prisoners.
I know a guy who told me, he's a reliable source, and so on...
Let's investigate it together. I usually respond affirmatively.
But we never found any prisoners. But that's just the point.
They don't have to be prisoners, in order for them to be confined.
This is one of the legends that overshadows China, unfortunately.
It started three years after the death of Mao Zedong, when the system of
assigned work has been introduced. Just to put it briefly...
You have a company and an Employment Agency,
you have a worker. Company does not hire workers anymore,
just as Linglong didn't hire Vietnamese, that's why they claimed,
upon finding those 750 people, that those are not their workers,
our hands are clean... This system is in favor,
not only for the Chinese companies but also for some in Europe,
as the employer remains clean, this system has been used by
various companies, Nestle, Google, wherever there's something that can
be outsourced... IT employees have better conditions, that goes without
saying, but manual workers are in much tougher situation...
For example, I have data that in China... to cut the story short...
This podcast must have mentioned Deng Xiaoping, who is seen as
liberal reformer from 1989, but he is somewhat responsible
for this liberazing any control whatsoever, and approximately
20 percent of Chinese manpower were in that system of flexible work
back in 2010. When they export this system to our country,
as they did, according to what we've already mentioned,
this is then disgustingly visible, we literally have barracks for
manpower, and to make it worse, this is nothing new, this was not
thought of by the Chinese... Our people made a trip to Sochi,
and they were literally accommodated in the barracks.
Our workers, as we know, were wearing adult diapers.
When you construct the road, this is accommodation you can get.
In the end, here in Belgrade, I witnessed it as I moved from
one place to another, there are ads in Beostan or elsewhere,
offering accommodation for workers which is never luxurious...
So, this is not Chinese invention, but it is very much related to...
Let me go back to the start, I think that this is mirrorring
our society, it pertains to the way we treat the workers...
Why we don't have working camps, at least on the level that exist in
Croatia or Germany, for instance? Belt and Road Initiative goes through
those countries and nothing happened. So, those are peripheral states...
It has to do with the erosion of labor rights in our country,
which is in direct connection with the attitude of our state,
which on its own disclaims responsibility, so this myth
about prisoners goes in favor of Vucic the most.
I'll tell you why. In 2018, with that Social Security Agreement, as
I have already mentioned, it is specified that those
assigned workers from China can stay in Serbia for five years.
This is the longest period of time. We have agreements with other
states as well, with shorter period. The way it is being interpreted in
the law is that they are above our regulations.
Those regulations are in effect, it's just that they are not applied.
This is a small snag, but I will stop here as I speak too much.
No, but that's the point. I would like to dwell on
that for a bit. So, assigned worker is not unusual or new or different
than what we have agreed on with some other European state...
So, if I am employed by the BFPE Foundation and I have to spend
some six months in Germany, working on some joint project,
BFPE would assing me to go there for a six months period, in order
to facilitate my stay there obtaining residence permit and everything else
that goes with it, and that's actually quite ordinary.
So, why do we have a five year period with the Chinese?
And second, when it comes to the application of law, when you say
that Serbia has jurisdiction but Serbia's laws are not being applied,
why do we have such interpretation and whether that interpretation is to
blame for flexible implementation or non implementation of those laws?
So, do we need to rephrase it? -One of the reasons that I've heard
as to why we have five year period only with the Chinese, I haven't
checked this, I have to say, but it seems that this is maximum
number of years that Chinese agency can offer employment to workers.
They probably thought along the lines we will do whatever you need,
we'll put ten years, if necessary. But in practice, this is much shorter.
Major number of workers stay here from six to twelve months period.
It is questionable why is that rumor with the prisoners so present here.
The wording in the law goes that a worker who is assigned by a
Chinese company is subjected to the regulations of the country
where that company is situated, so he is under the jurisdiction of
the country who assigns him, not of the country he is assigned to.
What does that mean in practice? If the worker gets sick,
or if something happens to him, he is not paying social security
to Serbia but to China, which in turn covers the costs of his treatment in
Serbia. This is what should be the case.
I have asked half a dozen lawyers and they all told me first that
Serbian laws are not valid for Chinese workers,
I also thought so, but then we gathered what it means really.
I have literally revised some of my articles to be able to explain
what this really means. False interpretation is evident...
Or let's say why is it so present in the public...
Back then, Sasa Radulovic started to be active and he turned right,
and one of his moments that he used for the campaing was
that he sent a letter to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs regarding this
specific law, he wanted the Ministry to refute allegations and say that
Serbian laws are applied to the workers, but the Ministry remained
silent, and after a while, Djilas started to use the same
story in the campaign, so this story is present in the campaigns mainly.
So, there's continuous use of this story, as the campaigns are.
Of course, this does not mean that those workers are being treated
greatly, unfortunately. Here's a twist in the story.
Once I was in Zrenjanin with my colleague Tara,
and we called ambulance for a Vietnamese who got sick...
They didn't say that they couldn't come but it was evident that they
are not ready to do that, our conspiracy theory was
that they are not covered with that agreement...
And then the problem arises. -They do not want to be brought
into position to unveil details of this agreement and all the
procedures involved... that were not introduced.
So, those are not prisoners, but it is much worse than that.
It seems important, and it is in the context of research,
that those issues should be resolved as that would make things easier
for the Republic of Serbia... More accurate interpretation,
application of existing legislation and modifying it in order to secure
that a worker who comes to Serbia from China, Vietnam or any place,
feels safer, so he might wish to come back...
This will also be in favor of the Republic of Serbia, especially
as we have a trend of the lack of manpower and depopulation.
In order to secure this level of economic development,
we will have to import manpower, and we can easily get to the list
of countries where people from other countries will not come to
work if we don't establish legal framework, allowing this precondition.
By all means, you're right... -If we talk from the perspective
of constructive criticism, i.e. the things we've discussed earlier,
I would like to mention the issue of prisoners, what bothered me with
this topic was the fact that thesis will be easily overthrown,
on behalf of official representatives, that we are not talking about
prisoners, we should set aside the living coditions, etc...
And then, rather notable researchers and journalists, that offer such
criticism, create context in which constructive criticism that could
lead to positive work is being disregarded as such that
they only speak for their own sake. -They are either U.S. or Chinese
spies, there's nothing in between. Or combination of both...
You've mentioned Zrenjanin several times in our conversation.
We have in Zrenjanin very important case, that is to say a case study,
which should be considered although two years gone by since the story
of Vietnamese workers... You were involved in all this
prior to it becoming public and gaining such weight,
carrying significance on a global level...
What happened over there? We discussed agencies...
We mentioned two out of three workers working illegally...
But on this basic level, on the level of anecdotes, or
as someone who used to go there, among Vietnamese, how did this
story even begin, how it unfolded, and how it ended in this case.
I was there for the first time a couple of months prior to
this case, with the crew from N1, shooting for their documentary,
there were stories that there are certain workers, I thought only
Chinese, but they told me that they were Vietnamese, as well.
Then I addressed a letter to the management of Linglong
containing questions how many people are there in their factory,
where are they working, on which tasks, and I asked how many
Chinese are there, and how many Serbian workers, what positions
do they occupy... So, they responded on my questions regarding Linglong.
Main management is from China, as it is usually the case.
While manual workers are mainly from Serbia, but not just from
Zrenjanin, but all over Serbia... However, they didn't say
a word about Vietnamese. Then, it dawned on me that this was
due to that system of agency recruiting the workers, they
could legally totally ignore this whole story.
How's that happened? Well, to cut the story short,
700 people were found in factory hall, which is scary in itself,
then some video footage emerged with some cats being butchered, etc.
What happened? People were left without salaries for six months,
so they took to the woods to catch animals, in order to feed
themselves, this is one of the toughest stories I've heard.
This is how that footage was interpreted, and
we did it through that Chinese matrix, the Chinese eat all,
including cats... and gold fishes, for example.
We completely ignored the fact that this is consequence of a
negligence of workers as their employer deprives them
of salaries for six months. So, people stood together...
Vietnam is indeed a Socialist country, partially developed, but they have
certain moments of solidarity that saved them, I'd say so.
Despite some of them being illiterate, I saw some contracts
with a red thumb print instead of a signature.
They got together, and despite the fact that they were said that
their employer would cut their heads off if they protest...
This was written, as BIRN published, there's an online document on it,
they started protesting by starting their strike,
N1 journalist came to the spot, as well as VOA journalist...
Then it all went public, and to make things even worse,
Vucic, Ombudsman and all the ministers sing a synchronized
tune, endlessly repeating that everything's fine with their papers.
Then I sent Request for the information of public interest
to our National Employment Agency. I found out that they had nothing,
work permits, paperwork, then the ball unravelled,
and reached European Parliament, and then EP issued a Resolution
on Linglong against slave labor. What seems to be indicative,
I used to look at this resolution, and it says that China exports
prisoners, so European Parliament believed in such a case...
It made the job of the researchers even more difficult as we have to
explain why those people are not prisoners, and that's a main problem
as this is done legally and this is the point.
As in all stories about China, it has to stand up on both feet.
One foot is China, while the other is Serbia.
China cannot send the prisoners and we go lamenting that nobody
asked for our permission. This went through all
the state institutions, to become such a scandal,
while this is nothing new for the Balkan state...
In Croatia, Nepal workers are so numerous, a female researcher
told me once joking, that they could if they want, gain the status of
national minority. So, other countries import those workers as well,
Montenegro, Croatia, partly Bosnia and Herzegovina...
Serbia is also importing them but in a rather specific way.
We are turning a blind eye and that speaks about our
approach even towards economy, on behalf of total deregulation,
free market with free manpower and capital, we cut ourselves from
institutional conditions and create enemies to ourselves.
I mean, that Linglong in a city with no drinking water for 18 years,
someone should think of what kind of foreign investors we need...
Producer of tires on the fields, or a water in the city...
We don't need to be nuclear physicists to solve this problem.
We can try to make a compromise asking for a tire manufacturer
to make a water supply in Zrenjanin. To make a contribution to the local
community. This part of the profit isn't so significant, while the
citizens of Zrenjanin badly need drinking water.
You're absolutey right, but there should be sulfuric acid factory.
I was like if it's possible to start with water instead of acid...
It would be really great.
How did this story end? Are you familiar with that?
After a few days of physical conflict with private security,
taking over Vietnamese from the camp,
as some of them faced with problems when they ended
up in the news, or if they were seen to give statements to media.
A few days later, all was gone, they were literary scattered
around Zrenjanin and the surrounding area.
I know part of them were accommodated in the Castle...
I just wanted to mention it... -In Ecka, in private households.
I don't know whether you have information what happened today
with their camp, is it still where it was two and a half years ago.
We discussed it earlier. The same agency that brought them
imported workers illegally, and I have to admit that I was not in
Zrenjanin since last year, so I was not on the ground,
but I know that they scattered them from Sugar Mill to Gomex, then
a Castle in Ecka, I was in those other places they brought them into.
For instance, I visited Sugar Mill, the conditions were not much better.
I don't want to go into details, but you have small hot plate,
right beside it a buckle, so those are not hygienic settlements...
The quality of accommodation differed, there were humanitarian campaigns,
for instance, this Castle in Ecka is like a hotel, but a small number
of them was accommodated there just to show that they are generous.
It was a temporary accommodation, they said it, with the promise on the
part of Linglong that they are going to construct buildings for them.
What was also interesting is the fact that some local crews reacted,
they inhabit 3000 Chinese in Ecka, so, is it a problem to establish
a working camp, how they call it, or is the building problematic?
It is not possible that you oppose both... We have to be aware that
we won't solve the problem by evicting the workers...
Go back to China... Who would do that?
Let's be honest... I understand that people are furious, but this
won't solve the problem. Neither is a solution to beat up
a Chinese, as happened in Bor, this should be solved by means of
economic policy, in order to prevent something like this from happening.
You have to take care of your own manpower, our workers are
degraded, and then we ask ourselves why they leave the country...
Well... If they could get better salaries, they would have stayed.
So, we shouldn't subsidize foreign investor so that he can bring his
own manpower illegally, but I should go back to your original question...
Where are they currently? I must admit that I don't know.
It is very hard to determine those locations due to systematic rotations.
What we have here is the most researched case of the workers,
on the international level, those cases fit into a grey zone.
Even for the researches. I managed to find only four or five
studies for some similar cases. Moreover, Serbia had maybe
the biggest case in the world, there weren't such cases...
There was sometimes the case of 20-30 people, but 750 people...
Being so scandalously treated, and that we all act as if nothing
has been going on, and the media are being scandalized.
Even some journalists have been awarded for that, which is okay,
but it is simply more complex, I think that Serbia was not ready
for what happened. As far as we could comprehend,
this system was huge, while we thought that people are prisoners,
brought there and locked... This was not something that
went through the institutions, this is that totalitarian theory,
that Xi Jinping is somewhere sitting, looking at Zrenjanin...
Sending Vietnamese... -He communicates via phone.
That's what Vucic actually does. In the whole story, it turned out
as if he had nothing to do with this. This is rather interesting.
This is an issue that calls for continuous monitoring, not only
to learn from the mistakes, but to apply those adopted know how,
in order to improve our system, and the institutional mechanism
on the whole, and all that with a goal to prevent abuses and
bullying in the future. I believe we covered
lots of important topics, pertaining to the social aspects of Chinese
workers in Serbia, including a theme that we could call a burning issue,
in what way Serbia and Serbian system absorb such cases,
so we can instead of Chinese workers perceive Indian workers, or workers
from Central Asia, as there is growing number of them in Serbia.
But it is a fact that surveillance, or monitoring, evaluation of the
work of institutions in this field is of crucial importance.
I would like to thank you for being my guest today, but
also commending the efforts you've put into these issues,
I hope that your role in this topic will be present in the future, but
only as monitoring, that it wouldn't be necessary to react in a way
that was the case couple of years ago in Zrenjanin,
and what might happen again today, from what we hear...
With this episode, I am certain that we straightened out some
of the myths, directing attention of those who will have the chance
to listen to us to the major aspects to be taken care of in the future.
Great, I also hope we did, thank you again for inviting me.
So, that's it as far as this topic is concerned, we serve the people.
I'm kidding... Thank you.