1 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:12,040 Welcome to the new episode of New Magazine podcast. 2 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:15,680 Before we start, I would like to invite you to follow us on 3 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:19,720 You Tube Channel NM New Magazine, and you can also listen to our podcast 4 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:22,400 in an audio format on all relevant podcast plaftorms. 5 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:25,800 In today's edition, I hosted Aleksandar Matkovic from 6 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,120 Institute of Economic Sciences, and I believe that this episode 7 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:33,760 will be a good insight into a rather controversial issue, the issue of 8 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,440 Chinese manpower in the Republic of Serbia. 9 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:40,960 There are numerous myths regarding this issue, I discussed it with Sale 10 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:43,800 whether Chinese prisoners actually work in Serbia, 11 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,920 what happened with Vietnamese workers two years ago in Zrenjanin, 12 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:52,320 but what seems to be crucial topic which we discussed is namely 13 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:57,240 how the state of Serbia, or Serbia's institutions regulate this issue, 14 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:01,240 and whether it is necessary to do something more in order for official 15 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:08,160 state policy with this regard to be raised on a higher level. 16 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:13,160 I am confident that for the next 40 minutes you will witness interesting 17 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:18,920 discussion, and feel free to follow us on all the mentioned channels, 18 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:26,040 as well as on social networks, Instagram and Facebook, 19 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:31,960 I believe you'll find our future work interesting, and you can also watch 20 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,440 all the episodes that we have already posted. 21 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:39,720 Just to recall, the production of this podcast will not be possible without 22 00:01:40,320 --> 00:01:43,320 the support of the U.S. Embassy to Serbia. 23 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,600 Aleksandar, good afternoon, welcome to New Magazine podcast entitled 24 00:01:58,080 --> 00:01:59,480 Understanding the Steel Friendship. 25 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,720 I am glad that you are here with us today. 26 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,240 We will have the opportunity to discuss several issues 27 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:11,240 that would complement our previous conversations within this podcast. 28 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:17,040 You are currently engaged by the Institute of Economic Sciences, 29 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:22,920 and you deal with the issue related to China in several aspects and 30 00:02:23,640 --> 00:02:27,960 perspectives, what we are going to discuss today is relevant not only 31 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:34,480 for some specific cases in Serbia but in general, in conceptual sense. 32 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:44,320 Prior to discussing those issues, I would like to start with posing a 33 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:50,160 question that I used to pose to all my interlocutors in the past episodes, 34 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:57,120 in what way do you perceive the concept of a steel friendship, 35 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:03,160 do you happen to have interpretation that you've developed for the last 36 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:07,520 fifteen years, since Serbia and China started its cooperation, 37 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:16,200 whether it's substantial and concrete, or is it mainly on a conceptual level 38 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,440 a phrase that is used for describing relations between Serbia and China? 39 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:22,840 First of all, thank you for inviting me, the podcast is great, 40 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:27,240 I have watched most of the episodes. Actually, I haven't done anything for 41 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,200 the last 15 years, but I did some thinking for 15 minutes, on my way 42 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:35,760 here, so I thought about a bunch of those myths, I'll explain what I mean 43 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:38,240 by that term in the course of our conversation... 44 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:42,560 Namely, here we have the idea of China as a powerful country 45 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,520 that rules and takes care of Serbia, Zrenjanin and Bor, and other cities. 46 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:52,720 We have the term modern slavery, Chinese prisoners being imported 47 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:59,200 into Serbia, within Belt and Road Initiative as a centralized frame, 48 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,440 where everything's clear and exact, which is so far from truth, actually. 49 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:11,360 The idea of China as an authoritarian state fits into our foreknowledge of 50 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:17,880 something that is authoritarian in nature and that we understand. 51 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:20,880 Those are certain theories of totalitarianism... 52 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:26,000 From the research perspective, it is interesting to what extent empirical 53 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:30,200 matters on the ground are quite opposite to the established narrative. 54 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:32,800 Just to give you an anecdote to illustrate this claim: 55 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:35,520 Once, I was riding with a female journalist in Zrenjanin, exactly 56 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:37,760 when the case of Vietnamese workers was going on, 57 00:04:38,280 --> 00:04:40,520 we visited Linglong factory, and she asked me prior to 58 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:45,600 an interview: Sale, this Belt and Road, how can we get there? 59 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:49,800 Do we need to turn left, or what? So, I got it how people perceive it. 60 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:54,360 They regard it as a road, literally, or something authoritarian, which 61 00:04:54,880 --> 00:05:00,200 can be regarded as such, but we don't regard it as a Loan Initiative... 62 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,320 We do not distinguish reality from myth there. 63 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,760 So, when someone asks me about steel friendship, which is the phrase 64 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,080 originating from Yugoslavia, actually, from the 1970s, 65 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:19,640 from Tito's era, as he had a thawing of relations with the Chinese, 66 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,160 a researcher Sanja Radovic covered this issue in a detail. 67 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:28,600 This is something that speaks a lot more about us than about China, 68 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:31,000 so I would like to look at it from that perspective. 69 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:36,720 We would appreciate if Chinese were our steel friends, it is more to it, 70 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,800 than it's a concept of certain policy that's being implemented. -It's true. 71 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:47,440 I would like to touch on our main theme, and you gave me a good 72 00:05:48,280 --> 00:05:53,800 introduction that we could cover on a conceptual level, at least. 73 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:58,960 Apart from that being defined as foreign policy initiative, as a child 74 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,960 of Chinese leader, Xi Jinping, the Belt and Road Initiative is 75 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:08,280 a way in which China wanted to export its model of economic 76 00:06:08,840 --> 00:06:13,320 development, not only to accelerate progress in the state where it is 77 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:18,920 present, but also to promote its own progress, as they were not 78 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:24,120 in a position to do it only through their internal affairs. 79 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,960 So, they resorted to the set of loan arrangements or infrastructure 80 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:33,840 projects of different nature and in another category, 81 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,640 so they placed their own companies on the international markets, 82 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:41,240 that would make profit, and on the other hand, banks will reap profits 83 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,360 from interest, after the loans has been placed on the market. 84 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:52,040 Has the Belt and Road Initiative affected the accelerating economic 85 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:57,800 development of China, and whether this Initiative brought benefits to 86 00:06:58,280 --> 00:07:02,480 Beijing itself, the state of China, even greater benefits that it had 87 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:07,120 brought to the countries where these infrastructural projects are being 88 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:09,640 implemented or those loan arrangements are being placed. 89 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,440 Well, this is a very good question that is being linked to introduction. 90 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,840 I am under impression that we always miss a piece of a puzzle 91 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:21,040 in the story of China, and that is in what way does China fit into 92 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,960 this European story, or American story, and the response to that 93 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:28,760 question is the crisis in 2008, I would like to start with that. 94 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:31,680 I'll try to make the story short. Feel free to interrupt me... 95 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,080 So, what happened back in 2008? We have triple response to the 96 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:39,240 world crisis, to make it simple. We have banks from United States, 97 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,760 we have austerity measures in the European Union, actually, 98 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:47,000 but the China offered the third response, which is not mentioned 99 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,440 so often, but has an significant effect that it produces here, 100 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,120 it had done three rounds of fiscal stimulus in the infrastructure, roads 101 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:57,920 and railways, and for instance, one of my favorite data, 102 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:03,280 from an economist Vaclav Smil, allegedly favorite columnist of 103 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,760 Bill Gates, where he says that starting with 2011 until 2013, 104 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,640 China had spent 50 percent more cement compared to USA, 105 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:12,800 in the course of the whole 20th century. 106 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,600 Within three years only. Just to illustrate what it means 107 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,240 when we mention fiscal stimulus, and what does that contribute to? 108 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:26,640 It brought an overcapacity crisis, if you invest in the steel factory, 109 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:32,680 and if you make 500.000 billion of those factories, what would happen? 110 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:37,680 Those products have to find their way to the buyers, from steel to concrete. 111 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:42,200 I mention those two industries as the leading ones in Chinese progress 112 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,600 for a long period of time, and I think it is still the case. 113 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,120 However, it also causes lots of problems, due to the fact that when 114 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,880 you have overcapacity, that you are not in a position to export, 115 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:56,640 and the reasons for that can be seen in the case of Europe. 116 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:00,800 It introduced austerity measures, devastated demand, and made 117 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:03,600 a problem to China. China has no market to export its goods. 118 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,960 In a small province, for instance, it's not small, I say it on purpose, 119 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:13,160 Shandong, known to us as a place of origin of Linglong, actually, 120 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:18,320 in this province, for the last decade, there were such battle of automotive 121 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:23,280 companies, involving bankruptcy, monopolisation, shutdowns, 122 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:31,040 especially since Xi Jinping declared war on environmental pollution in 2015 123 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:38,160 that it led to, how shall I put it, a push effect, or a tendency 124 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:43,680 to export capital worldwide. Serbia then engages in this, 125 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,880 as it happened parallel with Vucic gaining power in Serbia. 126 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:54,880 I have an interesting data, I worked on a documentary regarding Linglong, 127 00:09:56,240 --> 00:10:00,240 and the journalist I worked with back then, Maja Nikolic, said to 128 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:07,080 me at one point, that she researched Vucic and came to a conclusion that 129 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:12,400 a day after the first rigged elections in 2017, whom Vucic 130 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,720 hosted afterwards? Has he hosted representatives of US Embassy, 131 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,280 or some of his closest associates? No, he invites Linglong. 132 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,240 It's rather interesting. He brings Linglong to Serbia. 133 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:29,800 I believe that this coordinated stories in Serbia and China 134 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:35,480 led to the fact that Chinese companies who need to export their goods, 135 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:41,280 that won't sell their goods or will sell it under huge prices, 136 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,440 and Serbia with Vucic gaining power, and he needs foreign investments 137 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,400 in order to remain in power, excluding European Union. 138 00:10:50,560 --> 00:10:53,720 That is where this steel friendship has been fostered. That's it... 139 00:10:54,800 --> 00:11:01,440 Let's remain on this track for a bit, as you have already mentioned, 140 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,640 regarding the level of Chinese investments, there's tendency 141 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:12,720 of securing foreign investments, or attracting foreign investments, 142 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:17,840 so we now face with some other problems, what is our basis for 143 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:22,280 attracting FDIs, that's actually cheap labor and cheap energy, 144 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:29,040 so we are faced with a problem of not being in a position to ensure 145 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,400 basic conditions for foreign investors, not because we are not 146 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:35,840 ready to offer financial and fiscal incentives but because we are not 147 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:42,680 able to offer high-quality and qualified labor or labor in general 148 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,520 in a way that we used to a decade ago. 149 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:52,840 Just to mention one situation briefly, we worked on an analysis as BFPE, 150 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:55,200 the Foundation for a Responsible Society, 151 00:11:55,680 --> 00:11:57,160 two years ago and we visited Priboj. 152 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:01,360 We know that Priboj is a city with one major company, 153 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,960 which is not currently in such a good condition... 154 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:11,520 Priboj, as one of the wealthiest industrial cities in former Yugoslavia 155 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:17,360 is now languishing, trying to attract new foreign investments, 156 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:24,200 and we asked them how would they feel if a huge Chinese investment 157 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:28,280 is being announced, that would bring jobs for a thousand workers. 158 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:33,880 It was sometimes after Zrenjanin and the case with Vietnamese workers 159 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:39,520 in Linglong, after the first reports on the negative impact on environment, 160 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:43,720 both in Smederevo and Bor, and they told us that they don't mind where the 161 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,280 investor comes from, adding that if Chinese come, they would have 162 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,040 erected a monument to Xi Jinping, in center of Priboj. 163 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,120 The problem arises when the Chinese come and employ a thousand workers, 164 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:59,400 as if you count workers from Nova Varos, Prijepolje and Priboj together, 165 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:05,440 you won't find a thousand of them. It is a fact that Chinese investments 166 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:11,760 are constantly growing since 2016, if we consider cumulative numbers, 167 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:16,480 digits in 2023 are decreasing compared to 2022, but whether 168 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,480 we are talking about investments or infrastructure projects and Chinese 169 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:24,440 companies, it's evident that there are lots of Chinese workers that 170 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:30,160 came to Serbia exactly due to the fact that we were not in a position 171 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:36,080 to secure manpower in a volume that was envisaged in the contract. 172 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:42,360 This is the topic that you paid much attention to, so how do 173 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:47,120 you perceive situation that we have constant influx of Chinese workers 174 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:53,200 in the Republic of Serbia, under what basis are they coming as 175 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,320 manpower to our country, and whether it represents a legal threat to our 176 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:04,600 legislation or manpower? -First of all, I want to say that 177 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,440 the biggest threat for our legislation is that legislation. 178 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:15,480 I hear all the time in public this story about China as a threat, 179 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:21,120 so, I think that there is something to it, I won't ignore that fact, but 180 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:25,720 partly this is rather a cliche, that should be if not rejected 181 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:29,760 than considered in a more qualified way, so I think that your introduction 182 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:34,320 was rather correct and to the point, by using that same anecdote... 183 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:40,200 So it occured to me that those are exactly all the problems pertaining 184 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:44,920 to Chinese investments and manpower. There are two waves of Chinese 185 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:49,280 migrations in Serbia, one was in the course of the nineties, it started in 186 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,160 1997 with Milosevic, Chinese from Hungary came to Serbia and opened 187 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:59,280 department stores... -Some would say, with Mira Markovic, instead. 188 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:08,200 Indeed... But this can be called the forerunner of steel friendship, 189 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:12,680 involving Milosevic and Mira Markovic, but it is interesting that this was 190 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:16,400 totally different type of migration compared to this we have today. 191 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,960 I think that this is rather indicative because when we sign this 192 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:26,720 Social Security Agreement in 2018, to go back to Vucic's time frame, 193 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,320 this is a year after his assuming the role of the President of Serbia, 194 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:36,480 this is the moment from which onwards we have a specific type of Chinese 195 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:42,560 workers, those assigned workers. For instance, in 2017, when Vucic 196 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,080 assumed the role of President, according to the data from the 197 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:50,280 National Employment Agency, there were only 74 assigned 198 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:55,000 workers from China to Serbia. I doubt that this is true figure, 199 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:58,320 those numbers are not in accordance with reality, 200 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,240 but officially, there were 74 those assigned workers. 201 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:11,280 Several years later, we have 2374 assigned workers in 2021, 202 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:18,320 it is official data. They enter our country with the valid visas based 203 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:24,280 on their being assigned workers. There is another type of workers, 204 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:29,120 that enter the country on the basis of tourist visas. 205 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:33,400 Those are partially legal or illegal workers, who work for the same 206 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,320 company but haven't been recorded in the National Employment Agency, 207 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:42,480 and when BIRN published data as to how those job contracts look like, 208 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:47,040 this is really devastating, chaotic. You are aware of that, surely, 209 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:52,000 sometimes, literally they had Sharia laws within job contracts, 210 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:55,960 that were accepted by the National Employment Agency. 211 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:00,440 It specified that in case of theft, punishment would include cutting 212 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,760 off hands, they're threatened with decapitation in case of strike, 213 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:07,760 and despite those paragraphs, the Vietnamese entered into strike. 214 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:10,320 That is how we got to know about that case. It is a rather illustrative 215 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,200 example regarding this issue, and I find it really interesting 216 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,680 that this illustrative case of Vietnamese workers had occurred 217 00:17:17,120 --> 00:17:20,360 due to our lack of electricians and construction workers. 218 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,200 Why is that? Because majority of them migrated to Germany. 219 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:28,200 We have lots of local examples. This is why our manpower is more 220 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:33,200 expensive, after all, try to build a house, or renovate it, 221 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,920 you'll see how it looks like. Workers are late, prices are huge... 222 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,560 So, what happens next? Chinese companies, such as Linglong, 223 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:48,280 as China has such relations with Vietnam, large number of Vietnamese 224 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,080 workers migrate to China, where the prices are cheaper, 225 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,960 they simply established certain relations, just as we have certain 226 00:17:55,360 --> 00:18:00,880 associates, companies, NGOs, with which we cooperate, 227 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,640 we have build certain business relations over the years. 228 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,440 Let's imagine that I manage to open up a company in Thailand, 229 00:18:10,360 --> 00:18:15,160 I need workers, and I think of you, as we go back for many years, 230 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:17,840 so we start working together as the business is rather profitable, 231 00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:23,720 with so many subsidies, so we work together... That happened in Serbia. 232 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,600 Those Chinese companies with Vietnamese employment agencies 233 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,080 came to Serbia, and to make things even more complicated, Linglong 234 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:36,720 didn't bring them, but it engaged its Chinese companies and they 235 00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:40,080 engaged Vietnamese companies, which then recruited workers from Vietnam. 236 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,160 To make things even worse,this was approved by our Ambassador 237 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,320 to Jakarta, a SNS member. He issued tourist visas to them, 238 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,400 I suppose that he called someone at the National Employment Agency, 239 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:57,960 asking them not to be so strict, so 750 workers came to Serbia. 240 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:01,120 When I went over there, when this case stirred attention, 241 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,240 I had a colleague from Zrenjanin Social Forum, 242 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:11,880 and the two of us toured workers and their facilities, 243 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:14,520 together with media, and we saw that there were 750 people there. 244 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:17,080 However, when I called National Employment Agency, they told me 245 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:19,720 that they issued 176 work permits. -Slight difference... 246 00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:24,480 Slight difference... So, every third man worked legally and the other 247 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:30,560 two illegally, then I gathered that this is very complicated matter. 248 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,680 Afterwards, I got in touch with Ombudsman, Ministry of Health, 249 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:37,920 Ministry of Construction, Zrenjanin Police Administration, all of them 250 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,400 presented us with different digits. Then I found out that our state 251 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:44,520 doesn't have a clue what has been going on, from the very start. 252 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,600 From Jakarta to Zrenjanin Police Administration, nothing's clear... 253 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:53,840 After that, BIRN published an article which says that it is modern slavery, 254 00:19:55,400 --> 00:20:00,000 but I would disagree with it a bit, not because that those people are 255 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:05,160 being treated well, but because I believe that it covers the basic 256 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,680 dynamics of the system itself. Namely, people perceive it as 257 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,920 a work camp, which is there and workers are being exploited in it. 258 00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:16,800 This would also be my perception if I didn't dig deeper in this case. 259 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,640 What really happens here? This entire system, starting 260 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:24,160 from Jakarta to the Zrenjanin Police Administration is actually a system 261 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,640 that sends new people all the time, usually, there are 20-30 people 262 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:32,160 per week, so the catch is that those people who were protesting are not 263 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,800 the same people that are here today. So, it is very hard to catch up with 264 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,960 the dynamics of the system as they keep rotating, 265 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:46,240 and this is actually a good way to prevent information leakage. 266 00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:53,280 It is really hard to research this. I know one researcher from China 267 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,440 Labor Watch who came here and found even a chane of prostitution. 268 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,480 So, this is a potential case for the police, which does not react. 269 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,600 I won't say it's involved in this as I don't have evidence for it, 270 00:21:07,120 --> 00:21:09,400 but they do not seem so promising to me, so this is a rotating system, 271 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,960 this is not a static work camp, or a static system, this is a 272 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:17,640 rather dynamic system, and digits that I dispose of are 273 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,720 actually official data, but compared to this Vietnamese case, where 274 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:28,160 two out of three people worked illegally, I believe that in 2021, 275 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:33,600 there were total number of 5535 workers, which entered Serbia. 276 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:36,800 I believe that this number is actually three times higher. 277 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,720 If someone would force me to give an exact figure, 278 00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:46,280 I would say that Serbia hosts around 15.000 workers annually. 279 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:51,920 I would like to discuss Zrenjanin in a more detail, but just to stick 280 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,320 to the figures for a bit and on this institutional frame. 281 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,800 So, several kinds of Chinese companies do business in Serbia. 282 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:05,080 Chinese department stores are one category, which are present on our 283 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:11,840 market for decades now. We are familiar with them, and the workers 284 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:17,320 from those shops work in Serbia for a longer period of time. 285 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,600 Some of them are even born here. There are supply chains, etc. 286 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,000 This is one category of workers that live and work in Serbia. -Yes. 287 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:29,080 The second category would be workers employed in Chinese companies, 288 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,240 that come here to carry out infrastructure projects. 289 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:37,960 Meaning highways, bridges in the past, now roads are main 290 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,560 preocuppation, those are Chinese companies that do business here, 291 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:49,640 which bring their workers, both for the management and labor, 292 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:58,120 they are here in the course of the project, the workers and 293 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:03,520 the company, they are rotating and being exchanged regularly. 294 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:09,840 They are, more or less, completely isolated, situated near highway, 295 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:17,200 in a correct conditions for this line of work... 296 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,880 Now, we have third kind of workers, those are workers engaged by 297 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,520 Chinese companies who work here on a long term basis. 298 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,600 Zrenjanin was the most illustrative case for this, we'll elaborate on it. 299 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:33,360 We have a kind of accommodation camp in Smederevo, as well... 300 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,240 One of our former guests, Nikola Krstic from Smederevo, 301 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:42,280 went for a visit in one such establishment near Sartid, 302 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:47,200 that is to say, Smederevo Steel Mill, while the largest number of workers 303 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:52,320 actually is situated in Bor today. The newly opened mine over there 304 00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:55,960 employs exclusively Chinese manpower. 305 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:09,480 What seems to be rather specific in the whole story is that this is 306 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:14,720 quite detached from our supervision, from the entrance into the country, 307 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,240 to the ways in which their working rights are being protected, 308 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:24,560 the ways in which their employer treats them, where they are 309 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:29,160 accommodated, whether they have basic not only working but also living 310 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:34,040 conditions, we had certain reports on the work accidents, so question 311 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,680 was raised whether enough attention is paid to the safety at work... 312 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:44,920 What I actually wanted to ask you, I would like to straighten things out, 313 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,880 namely this issue of social policy that you touched upon earlier. 314 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,680 Who has jurisdiction over Chinese workers in Serbia? 315 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,640 Maybe you could elaborate further on the phrase assigned workers... 316 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,040 This is a rather intriguing concept, and the difference between the 317 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,640 contract we signed with China vs contracts with other countries. 318 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,680 So, who has jurisdiction over Chinese workers and whether 319 00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:14,000 Serbia as a state or its institutions, can, if needs be, protect Chinese 320 00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:21,200 workers, if there's a situation that they need to be protected? 321 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:29,000 This is actually one of my favorite myths, I believe that so far a dozen 322 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,600 journalists asked me the following question: Hey, Sale, we work on 323 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,640 an exclusive story, we believe that there are some Chinese prisoners. 324 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,640 I know a guy who told me, he's a reliable source, and so on... 325 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,200 Let's investigate it together. I usually respond affirmatively. 326 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,360 But we never found any prisoners. But that's just the point. 327 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,080 They don't have to be prisoners, in order for them to be confined. 328 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:01,160 This is one of the legends that overshadows China, unfortunately. 329 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,520 It started three years after the death of Mao Zedong, when the system of 330 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,800 assigned work has been introduced. Just to put it briefly... 331 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,040 You have a company and an Employment Agency, 332 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,200 you have a worker. Company does not hire workers anymore, 333 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,600 just as Linglong didn't hire Vietnamese, that's why they claimed, 334 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,840 upon finding those 750 people, that those are not their workers, 335 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,680 our hands are clean... This system is in favor, 336 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,680 not only for the Chinese companies but also for some in Europe, 337 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,960 as the employer remains clean, this system has been used by 338 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,680 various companies, Nestle, Google, wherever there's something that can 339 00:26:42,120 --> 00:26:47,640 be outsourced... IT employees have better conditions, that goes without 340 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,360 saying, but manual workers are in much tougher situation... 341 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:55,640 For example, I have data that in China... to cut the story short... 342 00:26:56,360 --> 00:27:01,560 This podcast must have mentioned Deng Xiaoping, who is seen as 343 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,840 liberal reformer from 1989, but he is somewhat responsible 344 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:12,120 for this liberazing any control whatsoever, and approximately 345 00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:18,080 20 percent of Chinese manpower were in that system of flexible work 346 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,880 back in 2010. When they export this system to our country, 347 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,880 as they did, according to what we've already mentioned, 348 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,840 this is then disgustingly visible, we literally have barracks for 349 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,760 manpower, and to make it worse, this is nothing new, this was not 350 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,520 thought of by the Chinese... Our people made a trip to Sochi, 351 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,880 and they were literally accommodated in the barracks. 352 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:47,600 Our workers, as we know, were wearing adult diapers. 353 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,400 When you construct the road, this is accommodation you can get. 354 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,160 In the end, here in Belgrade, I witnessed it as I moved from 355 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,320 one place to another, there are ads in Beostan or elsewhere, 356 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,240 offering accommodation for workers which is never luxurious... 357 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:10,600 So, this is not Chinese invention, but it is very much related to... 358 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,640 Let me go back to the start, I think that this is mirrorring 359 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,880 our society, it pertains to the way we treat the workers... 360 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,600 Why we don't have working camps, at least on the level that exist in 361 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,960 Croatia or Germany, for instance? Belt and Road Initiative goes through 362 00:28:27,360 --> 00:28:31,040 those countries and nothing happened. So, those are peripheral states... 363 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,520 It has to do with the erosion of labor rights in our country, 364 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,480 which is in direct connection with the attitude of our state, 365 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:43,440 which on its own disclaims responsibility, so this myth 366 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:45,960 about prisoners goes in favor of Vucic the most. 367 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,480 I'll tell you why. In 2018, with that Social Security Agreement, as 368 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:55,000 I have already mentioned, it is specified that those 369 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,480 assigned workers from China can stay in Serbia for five years. 370 00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:02,320 This is the longest period of time. We have agreements with other 371 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,920 states as well, with shorter period. The way it is being interpreted in 372 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:10,720 the law is that they are above our regulations. 373 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,720 Those regulations are in effect, it's just that they are not applied. 374 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:19,040 This is a small snag, but I will stop here as I speak too much. 375 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,480 No, but that's the point. I would like to dwell on 376 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:30,320 that for a bit. So, assigned worker is not unusual or new or different 377 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,640 than what we have agreed on with some other European state... 378 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:40,160 So, if I am employed by the BFPE Foundation and I have to spend 379 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,440 some six months in Germany, working on some joint project, 380 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,320 BFPE would assing me to go there for a six months period, in order 381 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,560 to facilitate my stay there obtaining residence permit and everything else 382 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,080 that goes with it, and that's actually quite ordinary. 383 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,440 So, why do we have a five year period with the Chinese? 384 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,560 And second, when it comes to the application of law, when you say 385 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:11,320 that Serbia has jurisdiction but Serbia's laws are not being applied, 386 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:17,200 why do we have such interpretation and whether that interpretation is to 387 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,840 blame for flexible implementation or non implementation of those laws? 388 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:28,760 So, do we need to rephrase it? -One of the reasons that I've heard 389 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,000 as to why we have five year period only with the Chinese, I haven't 390 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:41,280 checked this, I have to say, but it seems that this is maximum 391 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:46,720 number of years that Chinese agency can offer employment to workers. 392 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,880 They probably thought along the lines we will do whatever you need, 393 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,320 we'll put ten years, if necessary. But in practice, this is much shorter. 394 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,320 Major number of workers stay here from six to twelve months period. 395 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:04,880 It is questionable why is that rumor with the prisoners so present here. 396 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:11,400 The wording in the law goes that a worker who is assigned by a 397 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:20,560 Chinese company is subjected to the regulations of the country 398 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:30,640 where that company is situated, so he is under the jurisdiction of 399 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,800 the country who assigns him, not of the country he is assigned to. 400 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,680 What does that mean in practice? If the worker gets sick, 401 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,440 or if something happens to him, he is not paying social security 402 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:45,000 to Serbia but to China, which in turn covers the costs of his treatment in 403 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:47,720 Serbia. This is what should be the case. 404 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:53,680 I have asked half a dozen lawyers and they all told me first that 405 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,160 Serbian laws are not valid for Chinese workers, 406 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,760 I also thought so, but then we gathered what it means really. 407 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:05,040 I have literally revised some of my articles to be able to explain 408 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:10,760 what this really means. False interpretation is evident... 409 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,560 Or let's say why is it so present in the public... 410 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,400 Back then, Sasa Radulovic started to be active and he turned right, 411 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,880 and one of his moments that he used for the campaing was 412 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:27,960 that he sent a letter to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs regarding this 413 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:33,520 specific law, he wanted the Ministry to refute allegations and say that 414 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,400 Serbian laws are applied to the workers, but the Ministry remained 415 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:42,200 silent, and after a while, Djilas started to use the same 416 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:47,240 story in the campaign, so this story is present in the campaigns mainly. 417 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:50,960 So, there's continuous use of this story, as the campaigns are. 418 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,480 Of course, this does not mean that those workers are being treated 419 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,040 greatly, unfortunately. Here's a twist in the story. 420 00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:59,800 Once I was in Zrenjanin with my colleague Tara, 421 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,200 and we called ambulance for a Vietnamese who got sick... 422 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,280 They didn't say that they couldn't come but it was evident that they 423 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,680 are not ready to do that, our conspiracy theory was 424 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:17,360 that they are not covered with that agreement... 425 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,600 And then the problem arises. -They do not want to be brought 426 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,240 into position to unveil details of this agreement and all the 427 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,040 procedures involved... that were not introduced. 428 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:29,440 So, those are not prisoners, but it is much worse than that. 429 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,960 It seems important, and it is in the context of research, 430 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:40,520 that those issues should be resolved as that would make things easier 431 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,720 for the Republic of Serbia... More accurate interpretation, 432 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:50,200 application of existing legislation and modifying it in order to secure 433 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:56,600 that a worker who comes to Serbia from China, Vietnam or any place, 434 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:02,200 feels safer, so he might wish to come back... 435 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,800 This will also be in favor of the Republic of Serbia, especially 436 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:11,320 as we have a trend of the lack of manpower and depopulation. 437 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,400 In order to secure this level of economic development, 438 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,640 we will have to import manpower, and we can easily get to the list 439 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:22,960 of countries where people from other countries will not come to 440 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:31,360 work if we don't establish legal framework, allowing this precondition. 441 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,760 By all means, you're right... -If we talk from the perspective 442 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,840 of constructive criticism, i.e. the things we've discussed earlier, 443 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:44,840 I would like to mention the issue of prisoners, what bothered me with 444 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:49,480 this topic was the fact that thesis will be easily overthrown, 445 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:54,680 on behalf of official representatives, that we are not talking about 446 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:59,240 prisoners, we should set aside the living coditions, etc... 447 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,120 And then, rather notable researchers and journalists, that offer such 448 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:09,040 criticism, create context in which constructive criticism that could 449 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:18,200 lead to positive work is being disregarded as such that 450 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:25,600 they only speak for their own sake. -They are either U.S. or Chinese 451 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,280 spies, there's nothing in between. Or combination of both... 452 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:37,240 You've mentioned Zrenjanin several times in our conversation. 453 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,280 We have in Zrenjanin very important case, that is to say a case study, 454 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:48,480 which should be considered although two years gone by since the story 455 00:35:49,240 --> 00:35:56,640 of Vietnamese workers... You were involved in all this 456 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:02,600 prior to it becoming public and gaining such weight, 457 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:05,920 carrying significance on a global level... 458 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,080 What happened over there? We discussed agencies... 459 00:36:10,240 --> 00:36:15,800 We mentioned two out of three workers working illegally... 460 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:22,200 But on this basic level, on the level of anecdotes, or 461 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:27,520 as someone who used to go there, among Vietnamese, how did this 462 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:33,960 story even begin, how it unfolded, and how it ended in this case. 463 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,360 I was there for the first time a couple of months prior to 464 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,600 this case, with the crew from N1, shooting for their documentary, 465 00:36:41,240 --> 00:36:45,240 there were stories that there are certain workers, I thought only 466 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,120 Chinese, but they told me that they were Vietnamese, as well. 467 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,200 Then I addressed a letter to the management of Linglong 468 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,080 containing questions how many people are there in their factory, 469 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,880 where are they working, on which tasks, and I asked how many 470 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:07,800 Chinese are there, and how many Serbian workers, what positions 471 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,120 do they occupy... So, they responded on my questions regarding Linglong. 472 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,520 Main management is from China, as it is usually the case. 473 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:19,520 While manual workers are mainly from Serbia, but not just from 474 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,520 Zrenjanin, but all over Serbia... However, they didn't say 475 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,800 a word about Vietnamese. Then, it dawned on me that this was 476 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:32,040 due to that system of agency recruiting the workers, they 477 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,840 could legally totally ignore this whole story. 478 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,120 How's that happened? Well, to cut the story short, 479 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,920 700 people were found in factory hall, which is scary in itself, 480 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:53,600 then some video footage emerged with some cats being butchered, etc. 481 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,840 What happened? People were left without salaries for six months, 482 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,360 so they took to the woods to catch animals, in order to feed 483 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,120 themselves, this is one of the toughest stories I've heard. 484 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,640 This is how that footage was interpreted, and 485 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,120 we did it through that Chinese matrix, the Chinese eat all, 486 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,360 including cats... and gold fishes, for example. 487 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:20,160 We completely ignored the fact that this is consequence of a 488 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:22,880 negligence of workers as their employer deprives them 489 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,320 of salaries for six months. So, people stood together... 490 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:32,840 Vietnam is indeed a Socialist country, partially developed, but they have 491 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,320 certain moments of solidarity that saved them, I'd say so. 492 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:41,120 Despite some of them being illiterate, I saw some contracts 493 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,240 with a red thumb print instead of a signature. 494 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,560 They got together, and despite the fact that they were said that 495 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,800 their employer would cut their heads off if they protest... 496 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,040 This was written, as BIRN published, there's an online document on it, 497 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:57,880 they started protesting by starting their strike, 498 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,880 N1 journalist came to the spot, as well as VOA journalist... 499 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:06,560 Then it all went public, and to make things even worse, 500 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:12,040 Vucic, Ombudsman and all the ministers sing a synchronized 501 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,400 tune, endlessly repeating that everything's fine with their papers. 502 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,880 Then I sent Request for the information of public interest 503 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:23,200 to our National Employment Agency. I found out that they had nothing, 504 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,000 work permits, paperwork, then the ball unravelled, 505 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,280 and reached European Parliament, and then EP issued a Resolution 506 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:37,480 on Linglong against slave labor. What seems to be indicative, 507 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,120 I used to look at this resolution, and it says that China exports 508 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,320 prisoners, so European Parliament believed in such a case... 509 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:53,120 It made the job of the researchers even more difficult as we have to 510 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,440 explain why those people are not prisoners, and that's a main problem 511 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:01,560 as this is done legally and this is the point. 512 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:08,640 As in all stories about China, it has to stand up on both feet. 513 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,320 One foot is China, while the other is Serbia. 514 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,960 China cannot send the prisoners and we go lamenting that nobody 515 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,000 asked for our permission. This went through all 516 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,760 the state institutions, to become such a scandal, 517 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,320 while this is nothing new for the Balkan state... 518 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:32,280 In Croatia, Nepal workers are so numerous, a female researcher 519 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,120 told me once joking, that they could if they want, gain the status of 520 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,720 national minority. So, other countries import those workers as well, 521 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:43,560 Montenegro, Croatia, partly Bosnia and Herzegovina... 522 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,600 Serbia is also importing them but in a rather specific way. 523 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:49,640 We are turning a blind eye and that speaks about our 524 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:55,960 approach even towards economy, on behalf of total deregulation, 525 00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:00,760 free market with free manpower and capital, we cut ourselves from 526 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,480 institutional conditions and create enemies to ourselves. 527 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:11,160 I mean, that Linglong in a city with no drinking water for 18 years, 528 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,520 someone should think of what kind of foreign investors we need... 529 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:19,040 Producer of tires on the fields, or a water in the city... 530 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,960 We don't need to be nuclear physicists to solve this problem. 531 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,200 We can try to make a compromise asking for a tire manufacturer 532 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:32,000 to make a water supply in Zrenjanin. To make a contribution to the local 533 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:40,720 community. This part of the profit isn't so significant, while the 534 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:46,120 citizens of Zrenjanin badly need drinking water. 535 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,080 You're absolutey right, but there should be sulfuric acid factory. 536 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:53,800 I was like if it's possible to start with water instead of acid... 537 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:56,120 It would be really great. 538 00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:58,640 How did this story end? Are you familiar with that? 539 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:03,400 After a few days of physical conflict with private security, 540 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:11,240 taking over Vietnamese from the camp, 541 00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:14,360 as some of them faced with problems when they ended 542 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:18,520 up in the news, or if they were seen to give statements to media. 543 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:24,960 A few days later, all was gone, they were literary scattered 544 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:27,200 around Zrenjanin and the surrounding area. 545 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:29,920 I know part of them were accommodated in the Castle... 546 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:32,960 I just wanted to mention it... -In Ecka, in private households. 547 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:35,880 I don't know whether you have information what happened today 548 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:40,600 with their camp, is it still where it was two and a half years ago. 549 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:46,320 We discussed it earlier. The same agency that brought them 550 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:52,600 imported workers illegally, and I have to admit that I was not in 551 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:56,360 Zrenjanin since last year, so I was not on the ground, 552 00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:01,240 but I know that they scattered them from Sugar Mill to Gomex, then 553 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:11,120 a Castle in Ecka, I was in those other places they brought them into. 554 00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,160 For instance, I visited Sugar Mill, the conditions were not much better. 555 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:21,480 I don't want to go into details, but you have small hot plate, 556 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:27,560 right beside it a buckle, so those are not hygienic settlements... 557 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:32,480 The quality of accommodation differed, there were humanitarian campaigns, 558 00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:37,560 for instance, this Castle in Ecka is like a hotel, but a small number 559 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:41,160 of them was accommodated there just to show that they are generous. 560 00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:46,360 It was a temporary accommodation, they said it, with the promise on the 561 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:51,200 part of Linglong that they are going to construct buildings for them. 562 00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:56,960 What was also interesting is the fact that some local crews reacted, 563 00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:02,080 they inhabit 3000 Chinese in Ecka, so, is it a problem to establish 564 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:07,480 a working camp, how they call it, or is the building problematic? 565 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,920 It is not possible that you oppose both... We have to be aware that 566 00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:14,480 we won't solve the problem by evicting the workers... 567 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:18,560 Go back to China... Who would do that? 568 00:44:19,240 --> 00:44:22,080 Let's be honest... I understand that people are furious, but this 569 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,640 won't solve the problem. Neither is a solution to beat up 570 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:28,240 a Chinese, as happened in Bor, this should be solved by means of 571 00:44:28,720 --> 00:44:31,480 economic policy, in order to prevent something like this from happening. 572 00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:35,320 You have to take care of your own manpower, our workers are 573 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,680 degraded, and then we ask ourselves why they leave the country... 574 00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:41,960 Well... If they could get better salaries, they would have stayed. 575 00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:46,280 So, we shouldn't subsidize foreign investor so that he can bring his 576 00:44:46,720 --> 00:44:50,160 own manpower illegally, but I should go back to your original question... 577 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:54,880 Where are they currently? I must admit that I don't know. 578 00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:02,600 It is very hard to determine those locations due to systematic rotations. 579 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:10,600 What we have here is the most researched case of the workers, 580 00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:16,200 on the international level, those cases fit into a grey zone. 581 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:20,520 Even for the researches. I managed to find only four or five 582 00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,600 studies for some similar cases. Moreover, Serbia had maybe 583 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,720 the biggest case in the world, there weren't such cases... 584 00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,360 There was sometimes the case of 20-30 people, but 750 people... 585 00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:35,880 Being so scandalously treated, and that we all act as if nothing 586 00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:40,400 has been going on, and the media are being scandalized. 587 00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:44,080 Even some journalists have been awarded for that, which is okay, 588 00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:49,960 but it is simply more complex, I think that Serbia was not ready 589 00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:54,320 for what happened. As far as we could comprehend, 590 00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:58,400 this system was huge, while we thought that people are prisoners, 591 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,720 brought there and locked... This was not something that 592 00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:06,720 went through the institutions, this is that totalitarian theory, 593 00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:09,240 that Xi Jinping is somewhere sitting, looking at Zrenjanin... 594 00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:11,800 Sending Vietnamese... -He communicates via phone. 595 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,000 That's what Vucic actually does. In the whole story, it turned out 596 00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:17,640 as if he had nothing to do with this. This is rather interesting. 597 00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:23,840 This is an issue that calls for continuous monitoring, not only 598 00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:28,960 to learn from the mistakes, but to apply those adopted know how, 599 00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:36,680 in order to improve our system, and the institutional mechanism 600 00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:43,040 on the whole, and all that with a goal to prevent abuses and 601 00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:51,520 bullying in the future. I believe we covered 602 00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:57,240 lots of important topics, pertaining to the social aspects of Chinese 603 00:46:57,720 --> 00:47:06,040 workers in Serbia, including a theme that we could call a burning issue, 604 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:11,760 in what way Serbia and Serbian system absorb such cases, 605 00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:17,400 so we can instead of Chinese workers perceive Indian workers, or workers 606 00:47:17,720 --> 00:47:20,320 from Central Asia, as there is growing number of them in Serbia. 607 00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:25,840 But it is a fact that surveillance, or monitoring, evaluation of the 608 00:47:26,240 --> 00:47:29,000 work of institutions in this field is of crucial importance. 609 00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:32,520 I would like to thank you for being my guest today, but 610 00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:40,920 also commending the efforts you've put into these issues, 611 00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:47,720 I hope that your role in this topic will be present in the future, but 612 00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:52,080 only as monitoring, that it wouldn't be necessary to react in a way 613 00:47:52,720 --> 00:47:55,280 that was the case couple of years ago in Zrenjanin, 614 00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:58,920 and what might happen again today, from what we hear... 615 00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:06,920 With this episode, I am certain that we straightened out some 616 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,160 of the myths, directing attention of those who will have the chance 617 00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:14,920 to listen to us to the major aspects to be taken care of in the future. 618 00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:17,600 Great, I also hope we did, thank you again for inviting me. 619 00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,720 So, that's it as far as this topic is concerned, we serve the people. 620 00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:22,520 I'm kidding... Thank you.