Welcome to new episode of podcast Understanding the Steel Friendship,
produced by New Magazine, supported by the U.S. Embassy.
Today I have talked to Marija Pesic, from Bor, member of the organisation
Initiative for the City Development. We have discussed what changed
in the city of Bor since 2018, when Chinese companies had
taken over managing the existent mines, along with opening new ones.
I believe that Marija had offered a comprehensive picture of what
and in what way the citizens of Bor accept or not the presence of
Chinese company, so I am confident that this conversation would give you
better local perspective as to in what way Chinese company has
been perceived by the citizens of Bor. So, you can follow us, as always,
on Youtube Channel NM New Magazine, audio format of this podcast is also
available on Spotify, Deezer, Apple podcast, and other relevant podcast
platforms, and you can also follow us on social networks,
Instagram, TikTok and Facebook. I trust you'll find this interview
rather interesting, so stay tuned for the next half an hour.
Marija, welcome to the podcast Understanding the Steel Friendship.
Thank you.
I am glad that you are with us today, for all those who hadn't
been in a position to meet with you, or get to know about your activities,
I want to disclose the reason why we are going to talk today.
You are coming from Bor, you're an activist at heart,
you represent organization Community Development Association Bor (CDA Bor)
so you are more than relevant interlocutor for someone who wants
to get to know the circumstances of Chinese presence in Bor.
We have discussed matters earlier in informal meetings, and I believe
that what you have to share with the people is worth hearing as it
can contribute to better understand Chinese presence in this city.
Prior to discussing Bor, and the mine itself, I would like to begin with the
question that I pose to all my guests that are being hosted in our podcast,
regarding the title of our podcast Understanding the Steel Friendship.
How do you perceive this phrase, does it have a special meaning for you?
When I hear phrase 'steel friendship', first that comes to mind is that
cooperation with China, and I think how many people from the institute,
from the media, students from abroad, especially from western Europe, had
contacted me for the last three years asking what's Chinese impact presently
and what has been going on in Bor. So, since the Chinese came to town,
the interest for it and economic development in general have grown.
As you said, since the coming of the Chinese to Bor...
Now, before we go back to 2018, let's go further back, maybe for
the whole century, Bor has been a mining town for centuries, and
it more or less totally depends on the mining industry. -That's right.
What was the situation like in general prior to the Chinese taking over,
that is, in the period prior to the selling of the mine, and its
privatization, was the situation different compared to the period
starting from 2018 onwards? -Generally, it will be good to
go way back in the past, given that Bor is not, so to say, old settlement,
it's actually a young town, with a hundred-year-old history,
which is mainly being perceived through the mining industry...
It was a mining colony since its establishment.
First, the Germans was there, then the French, afterwards,
we have taken over the mining, experiencing a great prosperity,
and when we started failing, we came up with the terms
'looking for a strategic partner', or for the potential buyer of the
whole complex, then Canadians and Americans were present for a certain
period of time, followed by Chinese definitely coming back in 2018.
They are present in Bor until present day, now there is a big expansion
as far as mining is concerned, as beside the old mine,
a new mine was opened in the Bor mining complex, Cukaru Peki,
which works with full steam. As far as I gathered, presently,
Upper Zone is in operation, it is up to 2000 meters,
it is being exploited already, so they started exploiting Lower Zone.
So, the exploitation goes on a rather quick pace.
Let's introduce people who are not so familiar with the mining industry,
they regard mining as a hole from where ore is extracted...
They are not far from the truth. -That's right.
We have an old mine, which is known to us, as a base of RTB,
from the ancient past, then we have a new Cukaru Peki mine,
which is been opened recently, if I get it right.
Well, yes, the bottom line is that this was the main interest
of the Chinese company, when it entered Serbian market,
and applied as a potential partner. Namely, they bought the exploitation
rights from the Canadians for the Cukaru Peki mine,
and this unfortunate RTB was simply part of the deal,
for which our government didn't have a ready solution back then.
It was done under condition that they keep manpower, along with
sticking to the salary amounts for the next three years or so,
with the fact that we accepted for Chinese manpower to come and
get employed within our mine. Cukaru Peki is very rich in
ultra-high-grade copper and gold deposits, so it was very interesting
to them, so they bought off the right for exploitation and since 2018,
they launched the opening of the new mine, so it's now fully operational,
despite the warning that this soil is also quite rich in arsenic as well,
they simply disregarded it, and carried out excavations
as it was the case in the old RTB, with quite accelerated pace, though.
So, now it is questionable whether we would be able to exploit those
resources for the next hundred years as we did in the past in the old mine,
or we will exhaust all resources for the next 15-20 years.
Then what? -No one has answer to that question.
When the issue of expanding that mine is mentioned, the citizens of
Bor have no information whatsoever, as the policy of Chinese company is
such that it does not share this kind of information with Bor residents.
This is a private company.
Fine, but we should be driven by the principles of transparent
business operations, along with free access to information...
This is not characteristic for... I suppose, in a cultural aspect,
in the first place, and that is not distinctive trait for Chinese
companies. We witnessed it during the preparation period, when they
performed research operations for the opening of the mine,
there were Nevsun, Freeport, they had headquarters in the city,
they had info center, and the citizens were able to go and ask about the
development plans, how the mine would further expand, citizens who
intended to sell their property, knew that they are situated on the soil
that would become subject to exploitation, they could go there,
make arrangements with them. I have to say that philosophy
of Nevsun and Freeport was quite different, in the sense of investing
into the community, through a CSR management, because they really
made plans in the long run, in the direction of diversification
of local economy, which is not the case with the Chinese company.
I have to say that this is not characteristic for the citizens
of Bor either, given that the city that is based on the mining industry,
had never produced individuals ready to take up some other business.
Simply, under these circumstances, when the new mine is opened,
now Zijin Bor Copper Complex employes some 6.000 people.
So, directly or indirectly, we have situation that 90 percent of Bor
residents depends on mining industry. -Not only Bor, but the whole region.
Well, yes, the most important economic activity takes place there,
and according to our information, people from other cities come to
Bor to work here, considering the deficit in the labor market
of certain occupations, people move and relocate, start to work and they
will probably stay here for a longer period of time.
We will cover the issue of manpower later, but now, I'd like to go back
to 2018, we have a tendency to accelerate economic development
of the Republic of Serbia through attracting foreign direct investments
and as for the mine itself, I believe that it faced with
certain outstanding debt, amounting to 350 million American Dollars,
if I got it right... -That's right.
It was actually the first installment when the Chinese bought of mine,
repayment of the debt itself. -Prior to that, one significant
debt was waived, just to remind you...
That's the icing on the cake of our responsible state business...
Why I want to mention this? When we take into account
some other aspects, not only from an activist point of view,
but more from the economic or foreign policy point of view,
we see tendency of foreign trade exchange between Serbia and China.
Since 2018, we experience rather continuous exponential growth of
copper export from Serbia to China. In fact, if we consider growth of
export from Serbia to China, we are exclusively talking about
growing export of copper, and what you mentioned
in our conversation while preparing for this interview,
we are exactly exporting raw ore. Did I get it right?
Sure, we export raw ore, rich in copper and gold.
Those were city rumours, as far as this new mine is concerned,
that this concentrate has been exported, but now, it is so obvious,
so what they excavate is not processed in the city itself
where there are conditions for that, but in the period when old smelter
was not working, trucks full of this raw ore were exported...
No one thought of establishing some subsidiary branches that
would take care of processing, as it was the case in the late
RTB Bor, when the branches started closing one after the other, until
we were left with this an economic corpse, called RTB,
that was needed to be taken care of. The Chinese find it in their interest,
as the price of copper is still high on the international market,
and with them exploiting the site with such accelerated dynamics,
they could only make profit out of it. If we look at it from some other
higher instance, we see that salaries of the employees haven't changed,
some were even raised, despite the fact that when the Chinese came,
they complied with the provisions of the contract that they cannot
lower salaries for three years, there were rumours that they
would lay off some of employees, that they would bring Chinese,
but something like that never happened.
Salaries kept growing from year to year, since their arrival.
What seems to be important to me is that you mentioned gold, which
is not the initial association, so did I get it right...
We have a law that obliges party that exploits certain site, to offer
gold first to the country where it is being excavated...
Upon processing it, I would say, yes...
Only after it's being processed. -So, it needs to be processed first.
That's right, I think that in this case, when we export raw ore,
we don't have anything to sell, we don't have the finished product.
If someone has different information, one can contact us via comments.
Yes, I am not a lawyer, and I use common sense...
Fine, you've mentioned manpower. You also said that the number of
employees remained the same, it even increased, in a way...
You've also mentioned the possibility of getting Chinese manpower.
Is there larger number of Chinese employees in Bor?
Whether they are in the old or in the new mine, or everywhere?
They are everywhere... -Everywhere? -Well, yes.
With that purchase agreement, I have read it long time ago,
the state obliged to facilitate coming of Chinese manpower,
due to the need of expanding business operations.
They had come in larger numbers. Currently, both companies are led
by Chinese management, our citizens kept some lower management positions,
former employees, and there are unofficial information as to how
many Chinese employees are there in Bor.
According to our sources, that number ranges between 10.000-12.000.
There are more Chinese employees in the new mine.
Old mine mainly employs local community members.
Really, there are lots of them. Namely, we have become
accustomed to the fact that the mine works 24/7.
Without any interruptions, it has been compared to Las Vegas, because of
the light and everything else. It is quite unbelievable at what
pace the Chinese work in the mine. There are lots of them, really.
What seems to be characteristic is that they have not assimilated with
the local population, they have their own ghettos.
Maybe it's not right choice of word, but... -You mean they have camps...
Yes, they have camps, those are settlements that they've designed
for their needs, and when they go out, they go to get groceries,
they do not mix with local population, so they lead a separate life there.
Some of the work might have been performed by the local population...
However, right now, we are in deficit, and on the other hand,
it's the question of the salary ratio and everything that goes with it...
The rumour has it that the Chinese are not being paid salaries on our
bank accounts, but on their bank accounts in China,
so it's practically questionable whether they are registered at all.
Some of them have to be registered, as the law prescribes it,
residence must be registered, along with other things, address, etc.
So, it's disputable whether all of them are practically registered.
According to another unofficial information, they take turns...
That they come and go. -I came across the agreement
that our Ministry of Labour, Employment Veteran and Social Affairs
had signed I guess back in 2019, maybe in 2018, but some time had
passed by since then, that allows Chinese workers to have status:
Assigned to work, so you actually never come under the auspices of
the legislation of the Republic of Serbia, you're assigned to work.
Yes, assigned to work... -To a five year period...
This differs compared to agreements we signed with other countries,
it is much shorter period of time. -Yes, it is shorter.
I had an opportunity to work for a short period of time for an
Australian company that performed investigative work.
We had employed mainly Australians, Mongolians, Filipinos, and as I had
been working on those operations, I know that work assignment was
just a document which should be submitted to our national service,
Police Directorate, etc. Apart from that, lots of
other documentation needs to be collected, until the moment
when you are forced, due to time that someone had spent here,
to make work contract, as there are in Serbia deficit for certain jobs,
such as drill workers and some other more specific jobs.
So, this is unprecedented. -Especially that period of time.
Fine. You've mentioned something that I regard very important,
this is so-called aggressive exploitation, actually.
Excavations would be carried out, sooner or later...
Is exploitation performed according to Spatial Plan,
i.e. whether there are certain influence on the local population,
are you facing with the situation that drilling has come to your
doorstep, as is the case with the village of Krivelj, which is
now quite critical... Or are there certain strategic and systemic
approaches to solving the challenges such as timely notice that allows
relocation in due time? Namely, if you have built
a house some fifty years ago on a terrain that intended for mining
even back then, you could be blamed for that to a greater extent.
With good preparation period, those problems could have been solved...
Is this issue being systematically treated or not?
I would like to answer with an anecdote.
These are the things we had the opportunity to hear from our natives.
When Bor started to develop and construct, given that majority of
people back then came from other places, looking for a better living.
They got jobs, etc. The city had started to get on its feet,
and according to the plan, city zone should be where now settlement is.
People from eastern Serbia probably know what I'm talking about.
That part of land was designed to build a settlement there.
It turned out that it is rather tiresome to travel, so they
thought of relocating there, it has been more convenient...
So, naturally, the city has been built there, and now we have
our city green market right below the smelter chimney.
This is direct result of planning. As for strategic expansion of
the mining basin, there is a plan, which is adopted, with the borders
of the basin being strictly specified, but where the exploitation ends,
this is just another level, as the impact keeps spreading.
The village of Krivelj was always on the slopes of the mine.
Its residents were always endangered.
Throughout all these years, there's no systematic solution
as to where to relocate those people. Our local operations come down to
our talking to a small group of people that is really jeopardized.
Those are people that have no interest from the mine whatsoever,
they have only damage from it. There are people that do not work
there, neither do their children, they are reduced to agricultural
production in unfavorable conditions, so they raise their voice against it,
questioning the way that all this has been done.
The residents of Krivelj expect city government to take care of
those people, of their survival, relocation and all other stuff,
so we had couple of locations where they could be relocated.
But as time passess by, the Chinese are pushing a story of their own,
we come to the point where any household depends on itself,
depending on the solution that is individually brought,
and if it happens that the hole had already knocked on the door,
you have to think what are you going to do...
Then, we have situations that people sell their properties,
at a very low price as there is some ambiguity what is prescribed in the
Serbian law, so Chinese offer much lower prices than what
has been prescribed by the law and Tax Administration.
People have to find their way to solve this problem individually,
where to go, where to relocate, what kind of compensation will they get?
This is one of the most endangered villages. But villages Ostrelj and
Slatina are slightly less endangered, together with Metovnica...
Those villages are now endangered with Cukaru Peki working at full speed.
Here, we also need some systemic solution for further expansion.
For example, in Slatina, the basin will expand till the center of village,
that does not concern any other settlement, but what seems to be
true, air knows no boundaries, so if we have polluted air and
groundwater pollution, it's all somehow spreading.
Those are rural communities where people are engaged in agriculture,
they have some kind of agricultural production...
Right now, we see that no one took care of how would the
accelerated exploitation, expansion of the basin and everything else
look like. Some of them are in a rather unenviable situation...
How shall I put it...
Readiness of the activists in town, and people who are of the opinion
that some systemic solution has to be found.
However, this can't be done by a single family, or a single
activist organization, we need consensus and critical mass
that would ask their superiors to try to solve these problems.
Is there critical mass and just as an additonal question,
and the introduction into what I would like to ask you next...
Is there willingness to listen to the problems announced by
activists but also individuals that are personally jeopardized.
The reaction should come from those that should protect the citizens,
state administration, local self-government,
people who could offer help in finding some professional solution,
rather than treating the problem from case fo case, as you said.
Solution on case to case basis is convenient as there you have
no responsibility and you don't have to deal with it in that manner.
City management did organize some citizens' assemblies in Krivelj,
that were, at least, unpleasant. City management then failed to
answer any of the questions of the residents of Krivelj,
It all comes down to swears, insults, blaming one another,
there is no constructive dialogue to try to find a common solution.
Citizens and residents have their hands tied, as you witness situation
that you've said that you don't want to leave as you are a native,
you live there all your life. Then, your next door neighbour
sells it to the Chinese, where they are already present,
then the other neighbour sells its property, then you are a kind
of an island and you are not only undergoing pressure, but you're
not sure when they are going to start drilling your property.
From the discussion with the locals, we found out that things are being
dealt post-festum, that Chinese enter certain locations and
then papers are being dealt with afterwards.
Which is also unacceptable. -Another anecdote that I've
came across goes like this: when tailings are left on your land,
you sue the Chinese and win them in court, they get a small fine,
along with demand to clean your yard, however, your land has been
already contaminated to the extent that you don't have anything else
to do but to sell it to Chinese, and you do it for a pittance.
That's right. I have discussed things lately with a friend of mine,
who turned down three offers so far, she had land in Slatina,
they came with the first, then with the second and third offer...
Then they told her that she asked for such an amount as if this is the
land of the first category and as if they're going to take up agriculture.
Then she said that when they come here to deal with agriculture, then
she will sell it to them free of charge.
This is an interesting example. Some people simply do not want to quit.
There is another thing that I wanted to mention, unquestionable appeals
that one must treat the issue that the environment must be protected.
In the course of our conversation pertaining to other issues,
you've mentioned air, you've mentioned water,
land devastation is de facto the consequence of mining,
there is no point talking about whether it exists or not,
was there any response on the part of the interlocutors,
representatives of Chinese company, regarding potential resolve of issues
that the activists point to, that is your organization...
pertainig to air pollution, or there's a century old
subsconscious mindset that things stand as they are and
there isn't much that we can do about it.
Well, yes, those were our last atoms of energy engaged in the
intent to point out at the fact that this doesn't have to be like that.
Simply, that we have to demand introduction of new technologies,
aspiring towards so-called Green Mining, so that we prevent
that the entire area in the radius of I don't know how many kilometers
becomes completely contaminated as Bor as an urban community,
exposed to such industrial impact, is encompassed with a green ring,
those who love nature and who visited those natural beauties
know that this is pristine nature, so we appealed to the city
administration and Bor Mining Institute as well as Faculty,
and in cooperation with them, and through their findings,
we had insight into the data on the level of air pollution primarily.
As far as land pollution is concerned, people conducted individual research
which show that the land is fully contaminated.
When it comes to the response of relevant institutions, for instance,
the ministry, and the inspection that is in charge for this within it,
or local authorities, their reactions mainly come late, when some time
passes by, with the rationale ten pages long, with the conclusion
that there was no case here. Simply, this is just it...
As a conscious individual and member of the community, you want to live
in a healthy environment. That is to say, you try to control damage.
We cannot talk about it, as Bor was never...
I mean, there's always pollution here, and the first ecological uprising
happened in this area, so people did put up a fight,
but now, simply, the scope of pollution reached called for
introducing criteria for damage control.
We don't have any response from the competent bodies...
We are now talking of a population that is in conflict within this area,
given that economic oscillations that happened in Bor over the years,
brought the employees of RTB Bor in the condition of permanent fear
that they would lose their jobs, that they would be left without
income, they were threatened with strategic partners coming or not...
Now, when the situation is in a way stable, at least at economic aspect,
the majority citizens of Bor claim that they are not actually concerned
about environment, that they have high salaries that allow them to
afford what they never could, and that simply it is not in their
interest, no matter how things stand in the long run,
there is simply that opinion that is now quite strong,
this has been industrial zone since time immemorial,
the air has been always polluted, we got used to it, so now when
it finally contributes to our living well, despite inhaling bad air,
you now started to make waves at the air pollution bothering you.
On the other hand, we can't forget the fact that Bor is situated
near the border with Bulgaria and Romania.
It was always a big question for me how is it possible that EU members,
as I always say, the air knows no borders, water either,
so how come that EU members hadn't appealed so far in the
context of air pollution, as it is impossible it hadn't reached them.
We saw in the political spheres that this border between Serbia
and European Union is rather high, it is obviously so high that even
air and water cannot pass by it. -Yes, it is tough to pass by.
We are going to conclude our conversation soon, I have a
question that interest me, given that you come from Bor.
To what extent the city changed for the last six years?
How much is the impact and presence of Chinese company obvious?
As well as the impact of Chinese workers, as I suppose that they
don't go downtown, but management surely tends to get entartained...
Stores are mainly empty, that is something you notice
at the first glance, simply, whether the Chinese get
supplied for their own needs, or Bor residents take care of
their own fears that they accumulated for years that they are going to be
hungry, I don't know, but that's a fact.
In the urbanistic sense, the city experienced changes, not due to
Chinese, but due to illegal building construction, which is not specific
only for Bor, but for all local administrations.
However, the context and the sociological aspect
has changed for sure, lots of people used to say:
Well, you know, our city is rather specific, etc...
Yes, Bor is really quite specific, it's special as you have on the
same place exploitation and processing of ore resources,
I will restrict myself to Serbia, I believe that there's no such
case with the environment being so highly contaminated and polluted
with heavy industry as is the case in Bor.
On the other hand, people are now satisfied as they have
salaries that are higher than average, you can hardly find
a free parking lot in Bor, as every household possesses at least
two vehicles, that's something... -To add it up to the air pollution...
It is rather funny as you can finish any job in Bor within 10-15 minutes,
downtown, so there's no need to drive, especially not that we
have one passenger per vehicle, but this might be a status symbol,
as people tend to compensate and make up for all shortcomings
from the past five, ten or fifteen years, etc.
So, yes, things did change for the better, so simply...
I can say from a personal aspect, and I am aware that many people
from Bor do not share this aspect with me, but it si my impression...
Simply, life is different, there's no interest whatsoever to advocate
any public interest, except for something you personally find
significant, things have changed since the time when our organization
was established, we are not in a position now to gather critical mass.
People simply don't mind, and my personal point of view
says that this is now sold occupied territory
where we can't have any impact and can't make any decisions.
This might be the message that we don't want to conclude our
conversation but we will leave it as a topic to be treated in future.
I am confident that the issue of impact of such a big system on
a local community, no matter how it got used to certain
way of life for centuries, will become relevant,
especially if we put it in the context of lack of responsibility for the
negative aspects that we considered. We can commend higher living
standard, along with the fact that there is less manpower than the
room for work, but at some point, we will have to discuss the issue
of quality of life, not only standard but the ways in which...
Well, we'll have to... Chinese have tendency to expand...
Thank you very much, Marija, for setting some time aside.
Thank you. -Thank you for being my guest.
I appeal to all those who want to get to know about this issue
to follow the work of your organization,
I know that you're available to all those who are interested
to learn more or to direct them to all relevant sources of information
that might be significant to them, and I hope that what we discussed
today would make things more comprehensible to those who
are eager to learn more about this situation, and
that they would get more familiar with steel friendship...
I certainly hope so. Thank you.
Produced by: New Magazine
Implemented with the support of US Embassy