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Today's guest of New Magazine's
podcast is Nikola Krstic,

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an activist from Smederevo.
For several years now,

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Nikola has been fighting, together
with the locals from surrounding

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villages, against negative aspects
of the impact on the environment,

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of the Chinese Company Hbis.
Apart from that, through his

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activities, Nikola is trying to reach
some higher standards of life

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quality of the citizens of Smederevo.
So, we tend through a prism of

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discussing how much economic
development is vital, to point out

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in the same time to what extent
the quality of life also matters.

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How much it is important to take care
of the health of the population which

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is directly affected with the work
of the Steel factory in Smederevo.

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What I regard specially important is
the fact that the phrase foreign

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direct investments be demystified,
in the sense that this term can

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carry some negative aspects
after all, which are rather obvious

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when it comes to Smederevo,
on the local level, and this is

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something that needs to be worked
on and improve through calling for

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accountability of the competent
institutions and relevant stakeholders.

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Podcast that you've been watching
is produced by New Magazine,

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with the support of the American
Embassy, and you can follow us

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on social networks, on Instagram,
TikTok, and the full version of our

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podcast is available on You Tube
Channel NM, New Magazine,

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which you can follow, and in audio
format, you can watch it on Spotify,

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Deezer and Apple podcasts,
and other relevant platforms.

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Enjoy our discussion, I hope
you'll find it rather illuminating.

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Nikola, welcome to our podcast
Understandig the Steel Friendship.

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I am glad to host you today.
-Thank you for inviting me.

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One of the reasons that you are
here today is the fact that in the

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previous podcasts, we discussed
what China is doing globally,

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we have considered different aspects
of cooperation between Serbia and

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China on the national level, but what
is very important for reviewing

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general bilateral relations is the
issue what kind of consequences

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this cooperation brings on the
local level, i.e. what is happening

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in those cities and settlements
where Chinese presence is very

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active, along with
Chinese participants.

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What seems to be very interesting
is that we record this episode

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several days after the celebration
of the lunar new year,

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that took place in Smederevo.
You come from Smederevo,

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as I had already mentioned,
and you have multiple roles,

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you are a political scientist,
in the first place, someone

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who deals with diverse aspects of
political sciences for many years,

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but you're in the same time
one of the most prominent

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activists, not only in Smederevo,
but on a broader national level,

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when it comes to ecology and
figth for environmental protection,

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as your primary focus of action.
We will cover a number of interesting

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issues, but I would like to start
from what seems to be our

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standard procedure, and this is
the question I pose to all our guests

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pertaining to the name of our podcast
meaning the phrase steel friendship.

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What does this phrase mean to you,
as a political scientist and someone

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who comes from Smederevo,
and who's activist-minded,

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how do you perceive this phrase
understanding the steel friendship?

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I understand it as a propaganda
phrase designed by a Chinese

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Communist Party, in order to
legitimize its activities on the

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Balkans and in Europe in general.
On the other hand, this steel

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friendship is still being perceived
as a steel embrace, which can be

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fruitful as every embrace, but it
can also suffocate someone,

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if it is too strong and if it's not
on the same level of strength,

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and this is exactly the case
when it comes to Serbia.

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So, we are being rather strongly
embraced which is dangerous for us,

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but it still isn't so destructive,
but there are dangerous tendencies

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and trends in view of Chinese
impact and presence on the Balkans.

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According to my opinion, and as
you said, I come from a small

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city of Smederevo, where the whole
economy has been maintained by a

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single Chinese company.
To put it in the right context,

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5.000 people are employed in
this factory, 5.000 families...

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There are also a couple of hundred
of those who cooperate with it,

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if we consider local statistics,
10.000 people from Smederevo

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works within industrial field.
On the level of the whole city,

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there are 25.000 employed citizens,
meaning that 40 percent works

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in the field of industry in the city.
So, Smederevo is an industrial city,

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it has become industrial city,
it hasn't been like that earlier,

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and it is rather important to point
this out, as a political scientist,

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that cultural and political matrix,
when I say cultural, I regard it

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in the sense of identity, as it is
hard to understand for someone

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who doesn't live in Smederevo or
Bor, those factories are simply

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part of our identity. We have
poems written about that factory,

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we have celebrations taking place
in the honor of the factory,

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finally, my father has retired now
and was awarded apartment

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thanks to that factory, so many
families in Smederevo, Bor or

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Majdanpek, in all those industrial
cities, are closely tied with them.

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And now, the Chinese come,
and they had come legitimately,

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we have never targeted them for
being Chinese, we haven't had

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problems with them, but we had
faced with the problem of pollution

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coming from that factory.
We are in the situation where

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we see that the concept of profit
extraction is underway.

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It is a huge profit, the second
exporter in Serbia, after Zijin.

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I believe it was a billion dollar
profit last year, you might have

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more precise data. On the other hand,
ecological standards are disastrously

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low, or non-existent, we might say.
We witness it every day, as citizens

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of Smederevo, and thirdly,
which is the main component,

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this is the attitude of the state
towards this issue, which is such

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that allows violation of the law,
violation of the constitution,

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that they turned blind eye on them,
when the inspection goes there,

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if it manages to enter the factory at
all, as they are almost prevented to

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enter, everything's finished with
some verbal warnings, not a single

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fine was issued for eight years,
not even a symbolic one,

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and a symbolic fine would
amount to three million dinars,

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which is a maximum fine
for an economic offense.

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It cannot be higher, and not even
that fine was ever recorded.

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I can say now exclusively that our
criminal complaint that we submitted

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against Hbis in June 2022
was officially dismissed,

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couple of days ago, after
some 19, 20 months,

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with the rationale that there
isn't so much pollution that

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we mention, despite our 60-pages
long criminal complaint, containing

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testimonies of numerous witnesses,
professors of medical sciences,

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metheorologists, environmentalists
with huge experience in this field,

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the prosecutor simply decided
to dismiss the complaint,

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in the investigation procedure, so
we hadn't reached court procedure.

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All right, you have presented a
detailed review of circumstances,

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diverse aspects that you've
mentioned are worth a deep

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investigation, and we will discuss
it, but for a start, let's go one step

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backwards, let's go back
to 2016.

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There are several data on the
acquisition of the steel factory.

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Or to be more precise, on purchase
of the property of the steel mill...

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This shows consequence
of a sequence of circumstances

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where the state of Serbia or
the Government of Serbia

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has been trying for four years
to find partner, but actually,

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what I want to ask you, and you
touched lightly on the subject,

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is the significance that the
steel factory has for the city.

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I would like us to make certain
parallels before, primarily in the

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privatization period,
in early 2000, till 2012,

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when the factory was managed
by US Steel, then the period of

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stagnation, and then the
period starting with 2016.

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How the attitude of the factory
towards the citizens of Smederevo

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changed throughout this time,
as well as the attitude of the

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employer or the factory management,
towards the citizens of Smederevo,

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and what makes the period from 2016
onward different from former period?

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I would go just one step backwards,
to say that this factory is there

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since 1971, and it is called
New steel factory.

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Namely, we had an Old steel factory,
that was originally built in 1923,

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in the center of the town,
then it was decided, as

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it was of smaller capacity,
to displace it to Radinac,

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some 5 kilometers from city center,
and make a new factory there.

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It was a village near Smederevo.
-Yes, it happened in 1971.

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For some 30 years, the steel factory
was managed by the state,

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there were ups and downs,
but the factory worked well,

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and the technology was more
or less in a good shape.

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In 2003, we face with privatisation
process, US Steel from Pittsburgh

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comes to Smederevo,
and purchases the factory.

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The privatization itself was
criminal, it was one of the

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privatisation cases that
Verica Barac was talking about.

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We should refer to a rather
paradoxical situation that

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on the one hand, we had democratic
authorities, that took over the state,

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and I still have great respect towards
the murdered Prime Minister Djindjic,

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but what seems to be the problem...
Chief of Cabinet of the deceased

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Prime Minister Djindjic, Nemanja
Kolesar, was in charge for this

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privatisation, it was Sartid back
then, and later on, he was arrested,

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but nothing happened in
the end, it passed as it is.

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Verica Barac spoke about this
privatisation in 2004,

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you can find her 2004 report
even today on Google,

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but to no avail.
It was all over.

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Then, we reached 2008, when
the world economic crisis started,

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the Americans realized that they
are going to make losses,

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and it took them four years
to decide to leave in 2012,

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when they returned the steel
factory to the state for 1 dinar.

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Then, we faced with the crucial
four-year period, 2012-2016,

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which is of vital significance
for what followed,

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as we had back then, if you recall,
the so-called professional management

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headed by Peter Kamarash,
this is the man who in the end

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sued the state for termination of
contract, and won in arbitration,

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but what seems to be the problem,
we had made losses of 150 million

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euros every single year,
150 million euros cost we had to pay

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as a state, for keeping social peace,
as it was obvious that this factory

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was not economically viable.
What happened next?

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The state was looking for strategic
partner or someone to purchase

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the factory, no one would do that
under market conditions, as it was

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literally a bottomless pit and the
only ones that could do that were

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the Chinese, due to their position
on the market, due to their not

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being obliged to respect labor
rights, or ecological rights,

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but also due to the fact that
they have been given a special

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status with that purchase agreement
from 2016, where they actually got

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all the rights on 1200 pages
to do what they currently do.

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So, this is a crucial moment,
as an introduction to the story,

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and then in 2016, they come,
and in the symbolic sense,

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it was important that Xi Jinping
opened it with Aleksandar Vucic,

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there were flags of China and Serbia,
if you could recall,

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Brother Xi, as he is called here,
all gathered workers were genuinely

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happy about it, as well as
the people in Smederevo.

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When such a gigant is shut down,
on which whole economy depends,

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this is reflected to the secondary
sector, on the bakeries, restaurants,

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coffee bars, boutiques, all are linked
in that chain, so the hopes were up,

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making 2016/17 - the year of hope.
It was followed by 2018, when

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we started to deal with it,
when we witnessed that

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we woke up surrounded with
some red clouds, we couldn't

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breathe, we had soar throats,
we got complaints from the people

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living in surrounding villages,
Radinac, Vranovo and Ralja,

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those three villages bordering
with the steel mill, as the factory

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is situated on a huge ground
amounting to 320 hectares.

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They called us enclosing photos
of their cars being covered in red

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dust, it was a disastrous situation.
This is the moment when we realize

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that we have a serious problem,
as they are working with full steam,

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and on the other hand, we are
facing with ecological disaster,

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with poor labour rights, 45.000
dinars wages, around   400,

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mostly all registered through third
parties, without any major rights,

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this was the moment when we
realized that we are in trouble.

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In a big trouble, actually, as we
knew that the state backs them.

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Just to look at that period of
transition, once again...

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What I found interesting, when I
first gained insight into agreement,

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practically, Smederevo Steel Mill
was not sold at all, as a business

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legal entity, its property
has been sold out,

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and if you look at the list of
debtors of the EPS,

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Smederevo Steel Mill is
among the first ranked...

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It is indebted for  45 million
for electricity,

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and there's one interesting thing
linked with that legal matters,

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so, the Steel Factory still exists,
simply, it is in bankruptcy,

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before liquidation but still
existent, with three employees,

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or something like that,
and we faced with the issue...

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When we launched the issue of
slag waste, there are huge hills,

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deposited by the Danube,
600m x 300m, 20 meters high.

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This is slag waste, a side product
of production, we thought that

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it should not be placed near Danube,
on the fertile soil, justifiably so.

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When we scratched a little where it
came from, we even had a meeting

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with Hbis, the only time so far...
-When that happened?

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It took place in 2019, if I remember,
they told us literally that they don't

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have anything to do with that
slag waste, that it's done by

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the Smederevo Steel Mill.
We asked them whether

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they present Smederevo Steel Mill,
they said that they have nothing to

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00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:09,840
do with it, and they are new
business entity, and this is being

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00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:11,680
done by Smederevo Steel Mill
that is in bankruptcy.

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00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,520
So, we asked them to whom
that slag waste belong...

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00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,040
Then they said that it was left
behind by the Americans,

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00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:22,320
some fifteen years ago.
According to our unofficial findings,

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00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,280
I cannot claim that it's hundred
percent true, but as we live and

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00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:30,360
work there and know that it's so,
they kept bringing out that slag,

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00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:35,000
and present it as an old slag,
as if some third parties were

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00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:39,720
bringing it, and as a cover for that,
Smederevo Steel factory was to blame.

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00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,440
There's no mention of Hbis,
Hbis is nowhere to be found,

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00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,160
in that particular situation,
and what they also did,

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00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:51,840
they had made lex specialis in 2017,
it can be found on Google as the

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00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,040
Law on Steel Mill...
-On the national level...

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00:15:55,800 --> 00:16:02,280
Yes, in the Parliament.
With that Law, slag from

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00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,920
the steel factory was declared
as construction waste, not an

232
00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:10,640
industrial waste, so the Law on
Waste Management is not competent,

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00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:16,200
so it is being considered a garbage,
so the relevant institution is not

234
00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,880
the one that is meant for that,
so they protected themselves fully.

235
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:22,440
We had submitted a range of
complaints, and nothing happened.

236
00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,000
Now, we reached the period starting
with 2016 till the present day.

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00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:32,320
It is also important to mention that
during this four-year period,

238
00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,280
Steel Mill wasn't working at all,
its production was low,

239
00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:41,360
but then we witness the
growth of production.

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00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:47,280
With that, side effects are also
being evident, including the slag,

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00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:54,160
but also exhaust fumes, and other
consequences of industrial production.

242
00:16:55,400 --> 00:17:00,280
What is happening with the parameters
that indicate failure to pay attention

243
00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:05,800
to the modernization of the
industrial process itself.

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00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,000
I have often explained that
to people in layman terms,

245
00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,320
you've been given a car that
wasn't functinal for 20 years,

246
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,440
and it is normal that the first smoke
upon turning on the car would be

247
00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:20,320
black as coal, but it seems that
this black smoke still blows out

248
00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:27,200
of the chimney managed by Hbis,
eight years later...

249
00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,680
That's right, and we cannot
blame Hbis for that...

250
00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,040
For the fact that technology has
failed, Hbis is not to blame,

251
00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,280
as this was an old technology
where everything is in the open.

252
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:45,280
There are hills made of coal,
used in the production, hills

253
00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,920
made of limestone and ore,
it is all in the open, the wind blows,

254
00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:53,400
spreading it, so it is quite a simple
problem, if we have factory halls,

255
00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,720
the problem will be reduced,
and then we face with the production

256
00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:03,120
and the emission of gases
and other vapors from there.

257
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:08,440
What seems to be the problem?
After 2016, we have situation

258
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:13,400
that parameters that measure the
level of pollution haven't changed

259
00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:22,560
much compared to 2022, for instance.
We always had some 140-150 days

260
00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:27,360
per year with an overdraft,
which is almost six-month period,

261
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,720
not only seasonal, during winter,
but also during summer,

262
00:18:32,120 --> 00:18:34,480
we made some analyses in July and
September that showed great amount

263
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,160
of pollution even in that
period, in Radinac.

264
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:42,440
There's also an economic aspect
of the whole story, pertaining to

265
00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:47,440
increasing the level of production,
and there are people who are

266
00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:52,160
satisfied with that. The sayings
from Bor and Majdanpek go

267
00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,040
like this: it's good as long as
there is smoke...

268
00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:58,640
So, it is good if it works,
the problem is when it stops.

269
00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:04,080
In the agreement itself, we found out
now when our criminal complaint was

270
00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:09,680
rejected, that they are not obliged
to do many things, pertaining to

271
00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:17,520
measurement of suspended particles,
simply, the state had given them

272
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,080
green light to do what they do.
This is the biggest problem.

273
00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:27,120
I want to ask you something
regarding this saying: people

274
00:19:27,360 --> 00:19:28,960
are satisfied, as long as
there's smoke coming out.

275
00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,560
Are the people satisfied?
-Well, that is really...

276
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,880
We cannot respond to that question
unequivocally, because on one hand,

277
00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,680
there are lots of people that are
satisfied because this factory is

278
00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:44,480
functional, they work there and have
certain monthly source of income,

279
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:48,480
as they have no other alternative,
however, for the last couple of years,

280
00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,520
it is a trand, so you will hear it
often from the citizens of Smederevo,

281
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,800
people are dissatisfied because of
low wages, so nowadays, you can

282
00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:03,440
work in a tobacco shop and have
higher sallary than those working

283
00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,520
in the dust to their knees, while
performing hard physical work.

284
00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:12,400
Salaries are rather low, on the other
hand, ecological standards are such

285
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,560
that people do not want
to jeopardize their health.

286
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,840
Third, some new factories emerge,
we have one for cable winding,

287
00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:24,120
with the same wages, so people
chose to go to those factories

288
00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,720
to work in a cleaner environment.
So, people are not satisfied,

289
00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:34,040
this is for sure, and from perspective
of our association, and in line with

290
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:38,480
what we propagate, the biggest problem
with that factory and with pollution

291
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,640
coming from it, is that
we don't have Plan B.

292
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:46,520
So, if Chinese investor, they can be
called investors as they made some

293
00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,080
investment, we will discuss it later,
as until last year, they were not

294
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,760
investors, so if the Chinese investor
decides to leave tomorrow for some

295
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:57,000
strategic reasons, we will
end up a dead city.

296
00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:00,840
The town would literally shut down,
as we don't have clear strategy

297
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,680
what to do as a Plan B in
case Chinese investor leaves.

298
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,160
So, will we turn to developing
agriculture, for which we have

299
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,320
huge potentials, will we turn to
developing tourism as the city

300
00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:15,320
lies on two rivers, whether we will
direct ourselves to service sector

301
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,560
instead of knowledge sector...
The people cling to that factory

302
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,280
as if there's no alternative.
We again refer to the issue

303
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,960
of identity, as it is simply
unimaginable for the factory

304
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,040
to stop working. Generations and
generations have grown up there.

305
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:37,320
From the point of view as political
scientist, it seems to me that

306
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:42,440
one of the goals of our policy,
although it is rather hard to say,

307
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:49,360
stands in promoting that
economic development,

308
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,760
as all other aspects fall to
the second and third position

309
00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:58,120
as long as we have some
positive economic indicators.

310
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:04,720
So, it seems that for Smederevo,
going back again to 2016,

311
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:10,200
it was positive that the city will be
revitalized, but what I came across

312
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,240
in some reports was the fact that
there were promises that they would

313
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,480
invest into the building of new
capacities, that would be ecologically

314
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,120
more acceptable, including certain
facilites that would affect pollution

315
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,360
and lower its consequences.
Did this happen, did something

316
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:32,840
change in view of responsibility,
if not only on the part of the owner

317
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:37,320
of the facility, i.e. Hbis, but also
on the part of the state of Serbia?

318
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,080
Were there any indications that
Serbia as a state exerts certain

319
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,640
pressure on the company to adjust
to something that would be called

320
00:22:46,120 --> 00:22:50,080
acceptable standards about impact
on the environment in Smederevo?

321
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:55,440
Yes, two important things happened,
the investment into the new plant

322
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,920
of agglomeration took place,
we don't know how much money

323
00:23:00,360 --> 00:23:03,440
was invested, they say several
hundreds of millions but we doubt it,

324
00:23:04,360 --> 00:23:08,320
but the new agglomeration facility
has been constructed, that were

325
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:10,920
one of the biggest problems
within the steel factory.

326
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,840
It launched its operations
in 2022, they promised us

327
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,960
on the first meeting that they would
do that in 2020, then it happened

328
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:21,960
two years later, so this
is a positive indicator,

329
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,840
and measurements in 2023, on
the measuring station Radinac,

330
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,560
show significant decrease in
pollution, but we cannot conclude

331
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:37,760
that this is in direct correlation
with the factory, as the level of

332
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:42,320
pollution in the country as
a whole was much lower,

333
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,680
so we must wait for a certain longer
period to pass by, so that we can

334
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,800
make such conclusions, as due
to meteorological circumstances,

335
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,760
we had lower level of pollution
throughout the country in 2023.

336
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,320
Yet, in 2024, we have rather
bad parameters, in January,

337
00:23:58,120 --> 00:24:00,480
so we will see what
this year will bring.

338
00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:04,680
Second important thing is that Hbis
invested, that is to say, donated

339
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,960
measurement station in Radinac,
for the quality of air, it was a

340
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,880
donation to the environmental
agency. This measuring station

341
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,040
already existed, it was a result
of the fight of our association,

342
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,240
when we blocked both the factory
and the road, and back then, they

343
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,960
only met one condition, putting
that station into operation.

344
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,120
All other requests were denied,
but it was very important, as it

345
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:34,160
happened in 2020, we got clear
state results for the first time,

346
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,200
that we face with the problem.
Prior to this, we talked in vain,

347
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,920
without any proof, based on
our feeling, then we got data

348
00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:45,600
from state monitoring and then
we decided to submit criminal

349
00:24:46,120 --> 00:24:49,560
charges as, on the one hand,
we had state monitoring of air

350
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,000
quality, on the other, medical
files of the residents, ten families

351
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,360
were engaged in submitting it,
and third, we simply witnessed

352
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:03,080
ecological disaster every day,
through recording and photos.

353
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:10,560
We have filed criminal complaint in
June 2022, and in February 2024,

354
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,080
our charges are rejected,
a couple of days ago.

355
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:18,600
So, we realized that it is impossible
that we protect our rights in the

356
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,160
institutions, when it comes to
Chinese companies, as they

357
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,760
are practically defended by
our state, so they behave

358
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,760
as if we are Chinese province,
they are fully protected.

359
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,600
Everything is subjected to their
making profit, at the expense of

360
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:38,640
human lives if necessary, we had
a case in Smederevo last year,

361
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:44,920
when a young boy got killed on the
crane. According to my informal

362
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,560
findings, I would like to hear they
refute this, and we find this out

363
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:54,160
from the close family of the victim,
they tried to cover up everything,

364
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,200
they threaten all other people,
giving them bonus of 10.000 dinars,

365
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,640
in order to remain silent.
So, you can imagine how much

366
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,440
life in that factory is worth,
and how they regard us as

367
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:12,840
the genuine tribal community.
-What seems to be in trend now,

368
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,640
and we will have the opportunity
to discuss it in the next episodes

369
00:26:16,120 --> 00:26:18,280
with the people from Bor and
probably Zrenjanin,

370
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:24,360
it is the obvious lack of any
responsibility for certain moves.

371
00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:33,880
It is not strange that an industrial
city faces higher pollution level,

372
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:38,120
it is not strange that like in any
dangerous activity, and heavy

373
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,000
industry falls under the category
of dangerous activities,

374
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:47,360
safety at work is sometimes violated,
bringing more or less serious cases

375
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,880
of accidents. What seems to be
disputable is the responsibilty

376
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:57,760
that someone takes or does not take,
and the process following the incident

377
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,600
in order to prevent it from
happening in the future.

378
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:05,920
This is a conclusion which is mainly
tied to the institutions, the ones

379
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,760
that could take over
this responsibility.

380
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:15,080
As an association, your Movement
Fortress wages battle for better

381
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,040
Smederevo for years now.
For cleaner Smederevo...

382
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,400
It is important to mention it,
and as you said, you do not

383
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,400
wage battle against the company
because it is a Chinese company,

384
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,240
nor do you fight against the people
that are employed in the factory,

385
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,520
you wage battle for the environment
that would make your lives better.

386
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:41,280
Sometimes, 10-20 percent more money
is not necessarily enough for making

387
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:46,120
life in certain environment better.
Who are your allies in that war,

388
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:51,520
or I could rephrase the question:
did local authorities showed any

389
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,920
understanding or the company
itself, or the national authorities,

390
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,840
or others that you turned to?
-This last question is simply

391
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:07,400
redundant. It is obvious that both
local and state authorities are aware

392
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,640
of the problem, even our former
mayor is from the village Vranovo,

393
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,080
he literally lives on the entrance
of the steel factory, and we know

394
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,840
that he used to support our
activities, meaning that he

395
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,720
understood our reasoning,
but in discussing things with them,

396
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:30,480
with decision makers, they always
say: you know it's a higher policy.

397
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,240
We had the same situation with
the people from legal system,

398
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,200
when they tell us that their hands
are tied, and that this is not the

399
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:40,720
issue of rights and
Serbian institutions.

400
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:43,600
But that this is all about
global relations, that are

401
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:48,560
above us all, and that we are
practically being played with, as

402
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:54,480
as a sacrificial lamb, as China
made huge impact on the Balkans.

403
00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:00,600
As for our allies, citizens in
the first place, local citizens

404
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,840
of those villages, and I would like
to point out that those villages...

405
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:10,200
For instance, when Rio Tinto was
discussed, where citizens rightfully

406
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,600
protested and were against mine,
we have situation that those are

407
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,680
villages of several hundred locals.
Over here, we have big villages,

408
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,080
hihgly populated, Radinac has
5.500 residents, Vranovo - 3.500,

409
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,360
Ralja - 2.500 people, so we have
10.000 people surrounding factory,

410
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,960
on its wire borders. 10.000 is
rather huge number of people,

411
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,080
plus 100.000 people endangered
in the city on the whole.

412
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,000
So, we are talking about highly
populated area and if you get

413
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,120
data that we collected from the
health centers on the state of

414
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:46,080
health of the citizens, we got
a rather shocking result.

415
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,960
In 2010, there were in Smederevo
1780 active cases of malignant

416
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:59,200
illnesses, this is 1.5 or 1.7 percent
of population, while in 2020,

417
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,520
we had 6860 such cases, pertaining
to 6 to 7 percent of population.

418
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,840
We have data that Bor has even
eight percent of population ill.

419
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,080
When I disclosed all the information
to the people not living in Serbia,

420
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,320
as I recently visited United Nations
due to such circumstances, as I was

421
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,280
giving a speech in front of
Ecology Committee, people

422
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,960
did not believe me. I was forced
to show them those papers.

423
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:27,840
Simply, people cannot gather that
every eighth person out of hundred

424
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,360
in the room had an active
form of malignant disease.

425
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:36,640
This is simply unacceptable.
I have a small child, and I also

426
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,480
live in that same city.
To start from the beginning,

427
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,720
how we started our fight against
the pollution. It is not that it

428
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,720
bothered us estheatically by the dust,
so I wanted to be clean...

429
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,520
It is not aesthetic that
we worry about,

430
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:53,480
it concerns our health.
This is something that

431
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,400
we often reiterate, as for us,
it is not relevant whether it

432
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,080
is American or Chinese investor.
As for me personally, it is of utmost

433
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,960
importance that no one is allowed
to poison me with vapors,

434
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:04,800
me and my family,
and they do poison us.

435
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:10,600
I see the room for the state to
tolerate it. We feel unprotected,

436
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:16,560
I see no way of offering
hope to the citizens...

437
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:23,120
Some of them signed the petition
and now lost in court, and imagine

438
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:25,960
how they feel when someone said
that they were lying about pollution.

439
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,360
Those people don't open the door,
they are inside their houses due

440
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:30,720
to diverse fumes, dust.
Their children are not coming

441
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,760
for a visit, you have numerous
examples that children do not

442
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,480
come here, as the kids cannot
touch anything, because their

443
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:42,320
hands instantly turn grease and red.
So, they made those people liars.

444
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:50,000
It is hard to discuss other things
that are not related to this that

445
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,880
you've just mentioned, as finally,
what is top priority if not human

446
00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:01,760
life, but some other aspects that
I find relevant in order to understand

447
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,720
the way in which on the local level
we can see the presence of some

448
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,600
huge stakeholder, and the results
of cooperation with that stakeholder,

449
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,920
this is some cultural impact
that this cooperation brings.

450
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,560
I believe that you hadn't expected
ten years ago that your town would

451
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:24,040
officially celebrate lunar new year
as it was the case few days ago.

452
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,360
This is not necessarily something
bad, it is cultural cooperation.

453
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:34,880
It is a legitimate thing, but it
definitely shows a growing social

454
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:39,640
impact which the presence of such
stakeholder has on local community.

455
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,920
There is certain number of Chinese
workers employed in the factory.

456
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:49,480
Is this social impact of Chinese
company evident on the local level?

457
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,280
Or the impact of the state of China,
or the Chinese Communist Party?

458
00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:00,320
We had reports that Chinese
policemen come to Smederevo,

459
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,600
and that they would be...
-We already have them on streets.

460
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,920
That they would be glorified
translators without major powers.

461
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,000
I would like to discuss with you
in the final part of this interview

462
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,280
about this cultural aspect
that through the cooperation

463
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,600
of two states, and with presence
of a concrete stakeholder, is rather

464
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,960
obvious that it influences
local community.

465
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,840
It is interesting that you can see
Chinese patrols accompaning

466
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,680
the Serbian police patrols,
they are without arms,

467
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:36,280
but they got police badge.
I assume that there is a legal

468
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,080
framework for their presence,
but it's unclear what they are

469
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,560
doing here exactly, and frankly,
I don't find it amusing at all,

470
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,360
as the sovereignty of this
country is brought into question.

471
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,880
Imagine American policeman that
accompanies our policemen and

472
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,360
patrols my city, I would
find it equally bizarre.

473
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,480
On the other hand, you have
Chinese employees, we had

474
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:03,960
data from the police as to how many
Chinese citizens were in Serbia in

475
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:09,040
2022, there were somewhat near
a thousand of them, it is not

476
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,880
such a huge number if we compare
it with Bor or Majdanpek where

477
00:34:13,240 --> 00:34:16,800
we had significantly higher number.
What seems interesting is that

478
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,840
they are ghettoed, we entered
that camp at one point,

479
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,560
they practically live in containers,
the living conditions are not

480
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:32,840
so satisfying, but this is common
practice in all Chinese companies.

481
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:37,320
It is interesting that management
of the company does not live in

482
00:34:37,720 --> 00:34:40,040
those containers but in the most
luxurious part of Smederevo,

483
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,640
in the villas, by the Danube.
So, this concept of equality

484
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,040
in Communism wasn't observed
here in this particular case...

485
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,200
We can undoubtedly conclude
at the end of our discussion,

486
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,360
is the fact that global policies or
as you mentioned relations on

487
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:04,600
the level higher that national level,
are definitely felt on the local level

488
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:12,040
and it is obvious that it is necessary
to shed some light on the things

489
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:17,400
that are not right, or the issues
that should be dealt with,

490
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:23,120
in order to improve them.
Smederevo is a historic town,

491
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:29,240
it is an important city, some
historical rulers originated from

492
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:36,400
Smederevo, and people that were
depicted as dragons, and definitively

493
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:42,240
as fighters. What you are doing
in Smederevo is also fighting for

494
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:48,200
better Smederevo, I hope that you
will have more and more comrades

495
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:53,800
in this venture, for the sake of
health of your child, and other

496
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,800
children in your town, that
you will have a chance to

497
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:04,680
provide existence in this economic
aspect, as we all want for economy

498
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,040
to bloom and flourish, but not
at the expanse of health of

499
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:13,440
people who live in that area.
I hope that people who listened

500
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:19,520
to our conversation for the last
30 minutes will find out why your

501
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:23,080
mission is so important.
I also hope that you would not

502
00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:27,760
lose your enthusiasm, although
you face with many obstacles,

503
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:33,720
including some lost causes,
but we should finish the interview

504
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:40,160
with this saying: you may have
lost a battle, but not the war.

505
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,880
I hope that some of the initiatives
that you've launched will result in

506
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,640
some positive aspects for
the citizens of Smederevo

507
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,040
and surrounding villages.
Nikola, thank you very much,

508
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:56,760
it was a pleasure talking to you,
and I hope that next time when

509
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:01,760
we had opportunity to discuss this
subject, you will breathe easier.

510
00:37:02,240 --> 00:37:03,720
Thank you for inviting me.

511
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:06,520
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512
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,200
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