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Welcome to New Magazine's
podcast entitled

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Understanding
the Steel Friendship.

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Today, I had the opportunity and
pleasure to host Igor Novakovic,

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Research Director of ISAC Fund and
Coordinator of Working Group for

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the Chapters 30 and 31 within the
National Convent of European Union.

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We have touched on the issue of
foreign policy of Republic of Serbia,

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and positioning towards
People's Republic of China,

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we have also mentioned cooperation
between Serbia and China in diverse

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fields of diplomatic activities,
as well as a triangle composed

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of European Union, Serbia and
People's Republic of China...

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That is to say, to what extent
Serbia's cooperation with China

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can have an impact on the
EU integration processes

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of the Republic of Serbia.
We invite you to follow our

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podcast on You Tube Channel
NM New Magazine,

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and on all relevant media podcasts,
such as Spotify, Deezer and Apple.

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This podcast is sponsored by
the U.S. Embassy in Serbia.

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Good afternoon, Igor, welcome
to the podcast of New Magazine.

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Good afternoon,
thank you for inviting me.

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You are here today, so that we
could discuss the evolution of

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Serbian foreign policy when it comes
to its relations towards China.

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We will take some modern time
frame for our observation period,

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but I want to stress that you are
here in your several capacities,

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but primarily, you are here as
Research Director of ISAC Fund,

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The International and Security
Affairs Center.

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What is also important to mention
today, you are also Coordinator of

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Working Group for Chapters 30 and 31,
within the National Convention on

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European Union in Serbia (NCEU).
I am convinced that few people

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here can speak with such competence
on the issues of foreign policy, which

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are strategically important in the
field of foreign policy of the

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Republic of Serbia. So, I want to
thank you for setting some time

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aside to be here with us today.
We have an unwritten rule here,

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that is that we devote first question
to the title of our podcast, namely

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Understanding of the Steel
Friendship, so in accordance

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with that, I have to ask you first
what does the phrase Steel Friendship

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mean to you and how do you
interpret this phrase that is often

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being used on the part of the
officials of the Republic of Serbia,

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but also on the part of some
Chinese representatives when

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it comes to describing our
bilateral relations.

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I believe that it is one of the
so called traditional approaches

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of China when it gives names
to some of its initiatives.

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For instance, Wolf Worrier
diplomatic initiative, those

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are titles and names that have
a certain color, that do not sound

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so well within our geogaphic space,
where we do not have such a strong

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understanding of those phrases.
So, I see it as an attempt on our

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part to send certain message to
China that we are in a way ready

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to accept their approach in
international relations, in the

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same time, showing great respect
for the Chinese culture as well.

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Still, in our region, that phrase
even sounds a bit ridiculous...

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Steel friendship...
-Yes, in our country,

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it is being tied with the purchase of
Ironworks or Steel works Smederevo

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back in 2016...
-If we want to be cynical,

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I believe this is not the reason
for calling our friendship 'steel',

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but it is primarily suggested
how strong this friendship is,

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and to what extent it is flexible,
so there will be no surprises there.

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Okay, let's see how we got to the
point to describe cooperation between

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those two countries in such words,
and I've already mentioned some

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modern context of establishing
relations, so I would like to focus

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to some specific time frame,
such as 2008, to this date,

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however, I believe that when we talk
about foreign policy or even some

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historical or symbolic determinants,
such as NATO intervention in 1999,

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and air raids of Chinese Embassy,
but as a focal point, we should go

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back to 2008, and the start of
contemporary development of relations.

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Let's start with 2008, and the
declaration of Kosovo's independence,

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along with a set of diplomatic
activities which the then leadership

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carried out back then on the global
level, in order to find partners that

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could in diplomatic way help
slowing down this act itself.

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Do you think that this is a valid
starting point for understanding

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the development of foreign policy of
Republic of Serbia towards China?

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It certainly is, but there is
also an additional element

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that is important to mention: the
start of economic crisis in 2008.

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At that moment, in the first twelve
months, let's recall Minister Dinkic's

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statement who stated that the crisis
will assist Serbian economy, but

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we were faced with an opposite,
in that period between 2008 and

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2010 or 2011, Serbian diplomacy
was also very engaged in finding

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partners that could potentially invest
into Serbia, or that might approve

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certain loans as support
of our state budget.

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So, we witness engaging a series
of partners, such as this Russian

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loan that was in the end used
for the reconstruction of railway

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station, which was originally
taken in that period of time...

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So, for several years, we didn't
know how to use it, so that in that

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context, China was also being
perceived for potential partner,

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but unlike to other countries, China
was a permanent Member of the

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Security Council, regardless of the
fact that the role of China back then

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was not on this level in international
relations. China was perceived as

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very significant country, as China,
together with Russia Federation,

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could prevent Kosovo's membership
in the United Nations, at least.

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However, we could have other benefits
from it, despite the fact that China's

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engagement in international relations
until then was not so tight.

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Namely, China tends to be neutral,
up to 2008, in what it hasn't

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perceived as predominant
subject of influence.

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Therefore, China was not engaged
in Yugoslav wars, so we haven't

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heard some strong positons on the
events that took place, China was

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rather lenient when it comes
to carrying out air raids on Federal

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Republic of Yugoslavia, up to the
point when Chinese Embassy was hit.

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There is a sequence of circumstances
that most likely caused it to happen,

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however, it was the moment for those
who do not support the independence

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of Kosovo to somehow be
drawn into Serbia's orbit.

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The most obvious example is what
it was done with Russian Federation,

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still at that point, we had
China by our side, as well.

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Then, it seems to me that it happened
back in 2011, the then President of

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Serbia, Boris Tadic, defined foreign
policy as resting on four pillars.

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It represented, actually, a listing
at a given moment of permanent

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members of the Security Council,
as France and Great Britain were

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in European Union, USA as the second
pillar, followed by China and Russia.

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China gained some greater
importance there for the first time,

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if we neglect the period from 1998
and 1999, when under the influence

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of Mira Markovic, China was forced as
a new partner in a national discourse.

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I find interesting that you've
mentioned the four pillar policy,

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so I would like to go back to 2009,
I should make an introduction to

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the whole story. Observing foreign
policy of the Republic of Serbia,

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and strategic orientation of foreign
policy of the Republic of Serbia,

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from a research point of view,
does not make it easier with

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the fact that we do not have
any strategic documents.

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But we have 2009, and 2019,
when we had a defined strategy

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of national security.
-It was in 2018, actually.

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Yes, in 2018 and in 2009.
In both these strategies,

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we had segments that were directly
or indirectly devoted to foreign

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policy, along with some goals,
or so-called national interests,

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or priorities that Serbia is
guided by in establishing

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cooperation with other countries.
China is mentioned indirectly in

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those documents, it is mentioned
in the statements of the officials.

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It is also mentioned in the exposes
of Prime Ministers since the year

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when modern partnership
has been established.

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However, in some bigger scheme of
setting Serbian foreign policy goals,

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where would you position the
developlemt of cooperation between

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Serbia and China,
on the priority list?

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Where do you perceive China as
dominant and less important,

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in defining foreign policy goals
of the Republic of Serbia?

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I would define China as the third
partner according to priority,

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while I would define Russian
Federation as the fourth partner,

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its significance being in decline.
The first priority partner of Serbia

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is European Union, the second -
the United States of America.

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Still, China is good as an alternative
source of income, that is to say,

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in obtaining loans and potential
investments, and China serves

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as a good leverage in
relations with the West,

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as we see that actually our overall
foreign policy road is defined with

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the legacy of Yugoslav wars, or
all the events that had taken place

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afterwards, along with the fact that
Pristina declared independence in

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2008, and that we are
still fighting against it,

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despite the process of normalization
through mediation provided by EU.

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In that context, China's significance
lies in the fact that it also refuses

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to recognize Kosovo's independence,
and on the other hand...

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If we look at the chronology, we are
perhaps the first country in Europe

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which directed its focus on China
at some point of time.

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As the Initiative 16+1 was launched
in 2013, if I remember it right...

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2012 - the Initiative 16+1...
-Followed by Belt and Road

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Initiative in 2012/2013.
-That's right...

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So, these two initiatives which
shaped China's engagement in

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this region as well, but also in
others, when it comes to Belt

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and Road Initiative, things were
not defined back then.

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So, Serbia was the first country
to sign a kind of agreement

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in relation with the investment
in the infrastructure domain,

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that other countries didn't have,
so we were the first to open that

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window, without any indications that
any serious loans would follow.

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But we started things going
with signing that agreement.

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As things developed at certain
points of time, when we faced

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with the lack of investment
from the European Union,

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as since 2008, we witnessed
major capital withdrawal from

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Eastern Europe, it was
the system of joined vessels.

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The crisis originated in the USA,
in order to cover their losses,

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the capital is withdrawn from Europe,
from Western Europe, more precisely,

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the investments that the West
had in Eastern and Central Europe

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are withdrawn to the West,
so the crisis spilled over here.

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Apart from that economic outflow,
meaning capital withdrawal,

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we also witnessed the withdrawal
of political interest for our region,

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on the part of European Union,
i.e. EU member states.

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Germany was the only one to
maintain certain focus through

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the famous Berlin Process,
which was launched in 2014.

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It was launched without any
specific structure whatsoever,

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but it was gradually specified.
It is interested, though, that in

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2010, European Union launched
infrastructure development plan,

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West Balkan excluded.
The only corridor that passed

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through our territory was
Corridor 7 - Danube River.

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It happened simply because
Danube flows through our territory.

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All other aspects were excluded and
only other players got involved here,

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in the field of infrastructure
development, did we receive

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the supplement of that plan on
the part of European Union.

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So, what I wanted to say is that
at certain point of time,

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China was simply the only interested
party, ready to do something here...

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Was it fully in accordance with our
interests or not, this is negotiable,

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but its engagement certainly resulted
in counter reaction of the West.

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I'm glad that you've mentioned along
the Chinese interest in this region,

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and I would like to go back to
the issue of cooperation between

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Serbia and China in contesting
the independence of Kosovo.

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So, my question is what is there
for China, what's Chinese interest?

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Do you agree and to what extent
with the standpoint that it is of

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utmost importance for China to
express its principal standpoint

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when it comes to the principle of
territorial integrity and sovereignty

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due to its own internal issues,
rather than it is essentially

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important to China to protect
Serbia's territorial integrity.

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The main principle of Chinese
foreign policy that was in effect

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for decades is that it doesn't
get involved too much in the

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global events, as it was primarily
focused on itself and on sending

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signals to its main partner
United States of America.

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Or better to say, not sending
any signals to the USA,

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thus maintaining below
the radar, laying low...

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This all changed now, especially
since President Xi came to power,

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as we witness a sharp
acceleration in China's growth

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in all aspects, military,
economic, and all others.

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I believe that lately, they show
greater interest for the events

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that take place on the global level,
as China gathers that it cannot

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remain in its exquisite isolation,
self imposed one, so that it had

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to have firm standpoints
on certain issues.

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In what sense? I don't believe
that China regards this region

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so important, its greatest interest
is for Serbia to enter the EU,

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as the potential friend of Beijing
within the European Union,

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and that its support of Serbia's
territorial integrity and sovereignty

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is a principal support, as you said,
due to China's own problem with

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Taiwan, but also with Tibet
and Xinjiang, although China

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control those territories, those are
open issues that seem to be

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burning issues in public
as disputable territories.

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In that context only, Kosovo
is important to China.

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China hadn't carried out a single
active engagement of China when

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it comes to this issue,
unlike Russia, for example.

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Russian Federation has engaged
in this much more, even assisting

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Serbian diplomacy efforts in
this derecognition campaign.

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However, I would like
to point out to one fact.

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Namely, China has engaged itself
in Balkans for the first time in 2021

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regarding one specific issue and
that was appointment of High

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Representative in Bosnia and
Herzegovina, when China voted

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against this appointment,
so it was not neutral in

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the Security Council but
it voted against the appointment

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of the new High Representative.
In this respect, we can conclude

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that in the long run,
certain things will change,

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but still, China's main interest is
at some regional level, it regards

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Balkans a significant partner,
but West Europe is in its focus.

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Western Europe is the main
cause for launching

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Belt and Road Initiative,
in essence,

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as it leads to establishing new
roads towards Western Europe.

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Easier delivery of goods,
among other things...

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Yes, that's right, but its main
partner is over there, so

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if we get priorities straight,
then it is evident that in

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principle, the priorities of minor
partners won't matter much,

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in case the agreement hasn't been
reached between main partners.

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I would like to add something,
connected with the WB region,

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more specific, due to the issue
concerning territorial integrity

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and sovereignty, and that is the fact
that after the Russian aggression

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towards Ukraine broke out, in the
statements that went public after

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the meetings of the officials of the
Republic of Serbia and People's

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00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:53,960
Republic of China, almost
indispensable part of statements

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00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:57,760
is that China confirmed its principal
standpoint regarding Serbia's

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00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,640
territorial integrity and sovereignty,
in accordance with the norms of

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00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,920
international law and declarations
of European Union.

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00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:09,120
So, this is something that was not
present on that level until 2022,

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especially starting with the second
half of 2022, this is part of every

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single announcement or statement.
-Yes, it is, but for the last year and

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00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:23,960
a half we have seen growing
instability when it comes to

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00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:28,160
this, so it's in mutual interest
to point out such things,

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as what's valid for one party,
should be valid for the other.

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In this way, China shows its intent
when it comes to the Taiwan issue,

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00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,320
although there would be no
intervention, it is still significant

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for China to make things clear, that
Taiwan is integral part of China.

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What we often witness, if West Balkan
comes into the focus of international

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community, this is mainly due to
some crisis or in the period of

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00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:05,080
intense possibility of conflict
arising per chance in BiH,

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00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,160
but we should mention Serbia and
Kosovo, in that particular context.

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If we are given space to present
certain standpoint on a global scene,

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this is in those times, and that
is why Chinese position has been

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00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:25,760
underlined so strongly.
-It is still questionable

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00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:29,440
whether and to what extent
it will be instrumentalized,

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00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:34,520
or whether Serbia can really
count on the help of China,

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other than taking this
principal standpoint.

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We have this principle position for
years, it's just underlined now.

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My opinion which is disputable
is that China will follow the position

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00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:52,600
of Serbia when it comes to Kosovo.
-Of course.

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If the Normalisation Process comes
to the agreement that could be

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implemented, China will surely
support that agreement...

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Unlike Russian Federation that
won't support it... We had already

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a statement of Sergei Lavrov,
the other day in Skopje,

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on the OSCE meeting, and Russian
Federation is more willing to trade

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00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:26,520
with the West on this issue.
China does not try for now,

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00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,960
nor is it willing to instrumentalize
this issue in any way, apart from

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00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:38,200
underlying its firm position on this
linked to their internal problem...

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That is the issue of Taiwan.
-Igor, in this final part of our

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00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,040
conversation, I would like if
we could shed some light to

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an important thing. You mentioned
European Union in your exposition,

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I say exposition, while we are
trying to talk to each other...

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However, Serbia as a country with
the status of an EU candidate,

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00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:04,320
is obliged, prior to joining it,
to fully align with the EU foreign

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00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,120
policy declarations and its
restrictive measures...

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00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:13,960
As we often hear from our state
officials, as a sovereign state,

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Serbia still has the right to
lead its own foreign policy,

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00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,920
but it is unquestionable that as
EU candidate member, Serbia

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00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,640
should align with EU's procedures
to the greatest extent possible.

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00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:30,480
ISAC Fund has been monitoring
the level of compliance for years,

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00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,680
with EU policy declarations
and its restrictive measures...

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00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:39,520
There is a dominant factor
in the level of Serbia's

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00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,680
non-compliance with EU,
and that's Russian Federation.

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00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:47,120
What you indicate in your reports
is the fact that there are certain

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00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:51,840
number of declarations and restrictive
measures, a multi-year trend, that is,

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00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:58,960
where Serbia didn't comply with EU
due to its cooperation with China.

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Can this present a challenge for
the overall integration process,

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00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:10,280
but for the process of complying
with EU policy declarations

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00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,840
and its restrictive measures, too...
Maybe you could indicate which

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00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,640
are declarations Serbia doesn't
comply with and why?

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00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:22,120
What are the disputed issues?
-First of all, I don't believe that

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00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:27,840
non-compliance with EU declarations
and restrictive measures that

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00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:36,800
concerns China won't be a problem,
as it represents problem already.

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00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,560
Whenever China is mentioned,
we are not aligned, but the number

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00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,480
of those declarations is not huge,
compared to the number of

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00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:48,280
declarations concerning
Russian Federation...

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00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:55,240
It actually concerns Russia's
involvement in the war in Ukraine,

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00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,440
and related topics, to which
we are also not aligned with.

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00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:02,200
So, this is absolutely
out of focus.

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00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:05,600
So, I don't believe that
this will present a problem...

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00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,720
I think that till the moment of
joining the EU, Serbia won't

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00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:20,440
be asked to firmly comply with
the EU's stance towards China,

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00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,360
although it could happen twelve
months prior to EU accession,

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00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:35,080
when it will be expected that we
fully comply with EU's perspectives.

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00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:37,920
It is the worst case scenario.
It would be better to happen now.

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00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,720
Full focus is now on
Russian Federation,

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00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:48,720
primarily because Russia's
aggression on Ukraine presented

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00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,280
quite a shock for the
European Union itself.

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00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:58,880
How shall I put it... Reviewing
security system of the entire Europe

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00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,760
on the part of EU has
been completely shattered.

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00:25:04,120 --> 00:25:07,280
Principles of inviolability of
the state borders and territorial

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00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,720
integrity, along with the principles
of peaceful conflict resolution have

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00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:17,640
been undermined, so they all
felt a tremendous responsibility

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00:25:18,120 --> 00:25:23,800
with the Ukraine being assaulted,
while European Union did not

320
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,480
offered assistance
it should have offered.

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00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:33,920
EU has taken a rather strict stance
towards Russia, strengthened by

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00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:38,280
member states, former
members of Warsaw Pact,

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00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,040
Baltic states that were occupied
from the Soviet Union back then

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00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,440
throughout the post-war period
as they didn't willingly joined.

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00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,000
I mean Poland, Czech
Republic and others.

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00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,040
Due to such a focus on Russian
Federation, i.e. its operations in

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00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,640
Ukraine, China won't
be such a big issue,

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00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:08,160
but when it comes to declarations,
that were issued in the recent past,

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00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:15,200
those mainly concern specific
agreements that China had made,

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00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:22,120
both with other players on the
international scene and with

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00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:29,000
parts of its own country,
so to speak...

332
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,240
Including the issues tied
to the issue of human rights.

333
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,840
When it comes to the latter,
I primarily had Hong Kong in mind,

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00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,120
everything that was going on in
Hong Kong from 2018 onwards,

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00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,680
elections related issues,
the new security law, and

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00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:49,720
other issues, upon which
EU reacted, while Serbia

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00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,120
did not comply, of course,
including the issues such as

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00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,360
human rights violations
of dissidents in China,

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00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,960
along with the minority groups, such
Uyghurs, a Turkic-speaking people.

340
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:08,600
I think it was rather problematic
at one point that Serbia hadn't

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00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:15,920
complied with the EU positions,
followed by some statements of

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00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,120
Serbian officials that could be
interpreted as an open support

343
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:23,080
to China in its efforts, both
in Hong Kong and in Xinjiang,

344
00:27:24,120 --> 00:27:28,440
but Russia is still dominant when
it comes to the number of

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00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:36,520
non-compliances with EU...
-With Russia's invasion of Ukraine,

346
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,880
the issue of Serbia's relations with
China had fallen out of focus,

347
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:45,360
at least from the EU perspective.
So, for the United States,

348
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:52,200
China presents the biggest challenge,
this rivalry will only grow in future,

349
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:54,680
but at this moment, that was
in the focus of the public,

350
00:27:55,840 --> 00:28:00,400
especially after President's
statements that were focused

351
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:06,680
on supporting, I would say
deliberately, territorial integrity

352
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:12,160
and sovereignty of China,
all attention was directed to this.

353
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:14,920
This is now out of focus
as we have a bigger issue,

354
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,840
that concers directly all of us,
and that is the biggest war in

355
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,720
Europe since the Second World
War that can spill over here...

356
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,760
I would like to conclude this
conversation with something

357
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,440
that calls for a separate interview.
Namely, it is the fact that European

358
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,320
Union as such, it is of vital
interest for Serbia, due to

359
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:40,880
our aspiring accession, and
given our candidacy status,

360
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,240
that European Union is also in the
process of redefining its policy,

361
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,640
reflecting on the fact that
there's no homogeneous policy

362
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:54,280
of EU, or its member states,
towards People's Republic

363
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,640
of China, while United States of
America openly advocate policy

364
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,000
of full separation,
so-called decoupling,

365
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:08,560
while such policy isn't currently
in the interest of some EU members,

366
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:14,160
so we have redefinition from
decoupling to risk reduction

367
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,440
in the cooperation with China,
or the so-called de-risking,

368
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,360
so it remains to be seen,
in the context of Serbia's

369
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,520
efforts to EU accession, in what
way will present form of cooperation

370
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:33,440
with China be aligned with EU,
with making it less risky, as

371
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:42,120
defined by the EU. Those are
themes to be treated in the years

372
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,640
to come, so it doesn't have
impact on the current position

373
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,880
of Serbia towards China,
and towards European Union,

374
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,720
and it could certainly be
an aggravating factor in

375
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:59,400
Serbia's EU accession process,
but we can discuss this later...

376
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,960
Of course, there are also other
issues, among the first, those

377
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:10,440
IT related, Internet, or
cyber space in general.

378
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,320
European Union perceives
that it is between the two

379
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,880
major players, the United States
and China, so EU is out of that

380
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,880
league, so it is a question
which kingdom it will support,

381
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:29,080
but it seems that EU prefers
USA, so in that context, any

382
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,200
engagement with China is
regarded as challenging.

383
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,880
Primarily, in the field of IT
equipment, IT applications

384
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:42,600
and other issues, so in this aspect
as well, Serbia should be cautious,

385
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:49,040
as if we misjudge the situation,
in case of strategic investments

386
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,400
in this domain, we could
pay a high price in future,

387
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,880
not in the context that we will
be punished, but someone will

388
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,400
refuse to cooperate with us
due to security reasons.

389
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:08,600
So, I think that Serbia should
weigh its foreign policy position,

390
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,280
determining our current
position carefully.

391
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,040
Our problem, I mean 'problem',
as it isn't actually a problem...

392
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,600
Let's call it challenge...
-That's right, challenge.

393
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,680
As a matter of fact, we are deeply
in the jaws of the European Union

394
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,680
and NATO, we're surrounded
with NATO members, so our

395
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:28,120
geopolitical position is quite clear.
Having that aspect in mind,

396
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,120
we should weigh our position
cautiously, even if we remain

397
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,320
in this position of self-proclaimed
military neutrality status, and if

398
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:40,000
we don't join the EU, we will be
forced to cooperate with them.

399
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:42,400
This is just how things stand.

400
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:48,160
This is the most cynical outlook
to the issue of cooperation with

401
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,760
the West, but this is
as simple as that.

402
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,880
So, in this context, establishing
cooperation with any other

403
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:59,240
partner outside of our closest
neighbourhood, which present,

404
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:04,840
as I said, NATO and EU,
can involve certain risks.

405
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:10,960
Instead of making decisions
out of the whim and ad hoc,

406
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,800
we should have somewhat
deeper strategic reflection

407
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,080
what our future position should
be and what are our interests.

408
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,520
Thank you for concluding our
today's conversation with this

409
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,840
message or recommendation,
so I would like to thank you

410
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,880
for being my guest in the podcast
Understanding the Steel Friendship.

411
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,320
I am certain that the views
you shared today with us

412
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,760
would contribute to helping people
better understand these foreign

413
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:43,800
policy aspects of cooperation
between the two states.

414
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:44,840
Thank you.

415
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,080
Produced by:
New Magazine

416
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,960
Implemented with the support
of the U.S. Embassy