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Welcome to the new episode
of New Magazine's podcast

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Understanding the Steel Friendship.

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Our today's guest is Dimitrije
Milic from the New Third Way.

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We will have a chance to hear more
about the work of his organization,

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but also of the ways in which China
has been presented in the most read

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media portals in Serbia, as well as
how the citizens of Serbia perceive

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the cooperation between
Serbia and China.

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This is the third episode in the row
of podcast Understanding the Steel

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Friendship, so I would like to invite
you all to follow up on YouTube's

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Channel NM New Magazine,
and you can find the episodes

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on all relevant media podcasts,
such as Spotify, Deezer and Apple.

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Dimitrije, good afternoon,
welcome to NM podcast,

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welcome to the podcast
Undestanding the Steel Friendship.

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Thank you very much
for inviting me.

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You are here in the capacity of
representative of New Third Way,

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and the topics that we will cover
today are crucial for understanding

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the fact that China has become
one of the main foreign, economic

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and generally political partner
of the Republic of Serbia.

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This is a perception of the citizens
of Serbia, as well as the perception

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of the common people in China,
on the ways in which citizens of

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Serbia regard this cooperation
between China and Serbia.

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Your organization has several
ongoing projects and I look forward

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to your sharing with us some of
the data that you have collected

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in the previous period, as far
as your research had lasted.

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Maybe we could start with
a brief introduction of yourself,

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and with a question which
we pose to all our guests,

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and that is the following:
when you hear the phrase

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Steel Friendship, what first comes
to mind, what is you perception?

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When it comes to a phrase itself,
it is easy to answer.

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I first think of Smederevo Ironworks
or Hesteel Serbia, from which this

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phrase originates, as it perhaps
was, as perceived by the citizens,

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in a symbolic way, a moment when
China has become, in an economic

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aspect, much more present,
as we used to hear for years,

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how much it costs us on a monthly
and annual level when steel factory

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operates in Serbian ownership,
what seemed to be the problems,

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with the management,
after US Steel departure, etc...

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So, this is the first association
that comes to mind.

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As for our research,
which is a leading topic,

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this is the research that we've
been working on since May 2023.

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It consists of three elements.
It should measure to what extent

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and in what way, local public
opinion, be it in media or general

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standpoints of the citizens,
perceive the great powers.

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Meaning United States of America,
European Union, China, Russia,

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as well as some of the less powerful
states, such as Hungary, or Belarus,

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in a word, any state that has certain
impact on Serbian political views,

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or can be discussed in
Serbian political arena.

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As we can see in current
international circumstances,

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those are the issues pertaining
to Serbia's foreign policy,

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and its international context are
very much represented in media.

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So, our research has been carried
out on a two-month basis,

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we review in what ways fifteen
most relevant news portals in Serbia

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informed about all key stakeholders,
in what way they mentioned them,

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we think about major states and
organizations, including China,

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and how they reported on their
leaders, in China's case, Xi Jinping.

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It was helpful to see how
they are represented in media,

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how is China presented,
in what way is Xi Jinping

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presented, also compared
to other leaders and states.

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In the same time, we made focus
groups in the cities where China

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has significant presence,
more than average, that is.

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Those are the places with
significant Chinese investments,

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with important infrastructure
projects being carried out,

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with the assistance of
Chinese companies.

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Finally, we had conducted public
opinion polls, measuring standpoints

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of the citizens on many issues,
it involved general questions

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regarding China, how they would
rate China on the scale from 1 to 7,

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how they would rate Xi Jinping,
but also the question of China's

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role in the world, China as political
and economic partner of Serbia,

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China compared to other stakeholders,
and who is more relevant to Serbia.

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We can discuss this further...
-Yes, by all means.

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I think we should have two parts
for discussion, the first being

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China in the media, and the second,
the results of the perception of

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public opinion, but what
I find important to mention,

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your organization is a young
but established organization.

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Thank you.
-The researches you've carried out

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are being referred to as highly
representative, so I would like

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to know how Third New Way
was established, I mean...

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The initial reaction would be that
we have these two key policies,

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we have this new third way,
perhaps it was your giding idea

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in thinking up such a title of your
organization, but maybe it would

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be best to hear brief history
of the organization itself.

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How you gathered a group
of young people, but well

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positioned people in this expert
sphere where their researches

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are already being referred
to as most relevant ones.

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First of all, thank you for
such a nice presentation,

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as for our organization, we have
established it back in 2017,

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with the aim of offering a new
approach to political analysis

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in Serbia, especially when
it comes to foreign policy,

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given that majority of people who
used to establish organizations,

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mainly represented now in our work,
were mostly from the political sphere.

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So, we noticed that the number of
foreign policy analysts is deficient,

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both in the media field, but also
with regards to showing interest.

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For a start, we were interested
in foreign election processes

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in different states worldwide,
but soon we wanted to connect

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our own interests with the things
that were in demand on the market.

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This consists of monitoring how
key international stakeholders and

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crucial international events, such
as election processes in different

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countries in the West or in other
world regions, are presented in the

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local public opinion, with our main
goal being to implement knowledge

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that we've acquired during education
and articulate our general interests

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into something that could be
useful to the others as well.

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Our idea was to remain independent
from the local political context,

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as the biggest problem in Serbia
is that when you want to take up

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some business, this easily becomes
politicized, one way or the other...

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So, we wanted to make something
completely new, hence the name of

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our organization, and it should be
independent from any current

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political options. Also, majority of
organizations are called Center for

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this, Centar for that, etc...
When you are new,

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and you want to enter the market, if
you are named Center for something,

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you would soon sink deep
as far as your name is concerned,

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as the established players would
always refer to their famous name.

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So, this is the history of the name,
of our organization, in a nutshell.

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For the last year and a half,
or even two years,

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we've focused on improving our
research capabilities, in order to

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better understand this geopolitical
part, in the context of citizens'

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standpoints, and given the impact
that media have on local politics

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and on domestic foreign policy,
having in mind that it largely

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depends on the positions
and emotions of the electorate.

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We will continue with researches
until 2025, as our central project

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ends then, but we hope to continue
with it even later on as we follow

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trends that are present for some
time now, and I think that those

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trends should be monitored
in future on two-month level.

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You have given quite a good
introduction to our main theme.

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This is how China has been perceived,
first in the media, and then with the

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citizens of Serbia. Let's start
with some point of reference,

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something that is probably
recognizable, let's go back

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to March 2020, showing
billboards throughout Belgrade...

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Someone who hadn't dealt with
politics on such deep level but

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rather superficially, probably
wouldn't know how Xi Jinping

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looks like, or who is our new
brother, as it said on billboards.

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As I see it, cooperation between
Serbia and China, the modern one,

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starting from 2008-2009 onwards,
has been under the radar,

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until Covid-19 pandemic broke out.
The pandemic itself made China

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recognizable in the households
all over Serbia.

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Maybe back then we got
new outlines of promoting

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China in the media, done in two
ways, according to my opinion.

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The first one is direct promotion of
China, where we have China as

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central part of certain articles
and media researches,

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the second is promoting China
indirectly, through our politicians,

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primarily from rulling coalition,
or rulling political party.

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Let's first discuss media coverage.
To what extent do your researches

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rely on this, and is my assumption
right or wrong when it comes to

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the perception and presentation
of China in our media, including

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the cooperation between Serbia
and People's Republic of China.

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Well, I can refer myself to
the current context as well,

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but also to the pandemic as my
organization carried out media

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monitoring back then, in Serbia,
Bosnia-Herzegovina, Montenegro,

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pertaining exactly to vaccination,
or how immunization process was

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conducted in those three states,
data are being available to our

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citizens on the website of our
organization, under the section

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publications, where there are
publications concerning this issue.

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One publication is fully devoted to
Sinopharm, the way how this vaccine

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was presented, of course, in a
positive way, compared to others.

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This was a pattern that occurred
later in political issues, issues

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that were not related to health.
In what way?

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Our organization had monitored
15 media outlets on a monthly basis,

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certain most read news portals,
those include websites of the

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newspapers with highest circulation,
the most watched broadcasters,

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but also the media that rely
solely on its web portal.

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So, when you look at those 15
media outlets that we regularly

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updated in relation to their
readership-viewership,

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so total number was 17, as two media
used to go back and forth on the list.

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Do you happen to know top three
most relevant media outlets?

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Those are Kurir, Blic, Mondo...
Those were among top three.

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There are others that were
close to the leading ones...

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Where China was mentioned.
When we look at total media output,

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Russia and Ukraine occupied
disproportionatelly more space.

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Namely, Russia, Ukraine, and some
other stakeholder, such as European

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Union or United States of America
had taken up 50 percent of space.

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The same goes for the leaders.
However, despite the fact that

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China was not so presented
quantatively, it had the most

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positive stable presence compared
to all other foreign policy actors,

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in that sense that it was presented
in a positive way, there were more

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positive than negative articles,
that was always two-digit, with

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the exception of several months,
from May last year.

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There are several reasons
for that. On the one hand,

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it is true that major part of Chinese
positive presence in local public

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sphere depends on state officials,
i.e. meetings with former Ambassador,

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and with members of management
of Chinese companies in Serbia,

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where the focus lies on the positive
effects of Chinese investments,

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or positive impact of Chinese
companies on infrastructure in Serbia.

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There are announcements of
a Trade Agreement with China,

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the visit to China that has been
realized several months ago...

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All of this helps in generating
positive articles.

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In parallel with the new positive
articles linked to the Government

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of Serbia and President of Serbia,
there are articles with positive

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reference to China, pertaining
mainly to some global events.

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Meaning, representing China
as future world super power.

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Positive achievements that China
has in the field of high technology,

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China's achievements when it comes
to military investments, et cetera...

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The same goes for some of
pro-Russian media, where

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China has been presented as
Russia's ally more than it really is.

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Or as future block of developing
nations, such as BRICS block,

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which became very important topic
in Serbia at the beginning of this

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year, as it is being mentioned as
alternative to the West, at least

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in the pro-Russian media, however
crucial factor of pro-Russian media

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in Serbia is that we have Russian
media such as Russia Today or

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Sputnik, which are source of the
articles that could contain some

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pro-Chinese elements, but they
are not widely read in Serbia,

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they are ranked below 50,
but they present a source

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for larger media outlets in Serbia,
that are pro-Russian, which take

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up their articles, meaning those
that speaks affirmatively of China,

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so those articles find their
way to our citizens.

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Of course, there are some of
Chinese media whose articles

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reach domestic media, such as
China Radio International,

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sometimes, Global Times,
especially if it criticizes NATO,

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or USA, so also this element
sourced in Chinese media,

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finds its way to Serbian media,
but to much less extent than

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it is the case with other states.
-There are two things that

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I would like to straighten out.
And one additional question.

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So, speaking roughly, we have
Chinese International Radio,

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a.k.a. China Radio International,
a kind of Chinese Reuters,

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so to speak, we have CGTN,
China Global Television Network,

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which could be called China CNN,
then we have CCTV,

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let's call it China BBC, in absence
of any other news sources.

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Those are three dominant media,
along with media houses such as

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Global Times, China Media Group,
that coroborated with certain

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Serbian media outlets, or engaged
Serbian journalists to record news

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for them that are in 99.9 percent
positive, or in affirmative context.

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True. But we can say that in
the context of total number of

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produced articles,
it is still sporadic.

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As for the number of references,
China does not take big part,

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00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,840
it is less being referred to than
USA or European Union,

223
00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,160
it is also less referred to than
Russia or Ukraine, however,

224
00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:37,560
when it is being mentioned,
it is done in an affirmative context.

225
00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,600
It is interesting that, when
it comes to Xi Jinping,

226
00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,440
he is being disproportionately
less mentioned than China,

227
00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:46,240
also compared to other political
leaders of other states.

228
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:52,400
It seems interesting that the
photos in the articles pertaining

229
00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:55,720
to China depicits Xi Jinping,
without mentioning him.

230
00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:00,320
So, it happens often that local
media which are anti-Western

231
00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,520
oriented, or pro-Russian, those
are quite compatible in Serbia,

232
00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,560
I would say 95 per cent, they use
photos of Xi Jinping while writing

233
00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,640
about China, not about him.
So, he personifies China,

234
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,160
but his personality is not
being analyzed beyond that,

235
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:18,920
so he is a poster boy of China,
in certain sense,

236
00:17:19,360 --> 00:17:21,720
there's no analytical approach, his
politics isn't closely scrutinized.

237
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:25,800
So, if we turn to the new media,
China is presented in domestic media

238
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,040
as a vital economic partner,
this is the first element,

239
00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,720
and as the second element,
it is a counterbalance to the West,

240
00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,440
as a goal of that part of the
media that are anti-Western,

241
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,120
that China will be future super
power that would ally with Russia

242
00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,080
and make the global order
that would suit Serbia.

243
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,320
This is the message
we can make out of it,

244
00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,360
with rather superficial
dealing with China itself.

245
00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:55,240
We noticed that number of articles
dealing with some interesting things

246
00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:57,560
about China had grown
during last year.

247
00:17:58,120 --> 00:18:01,640
Look at this interesting China
monument, tourism in China,

248
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,320
let's learn about this
festival in China that

249
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,920
gathered many more people than
such festival in the USA, etc.

250
00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:13,720
Those kinds of benign articles.
-It is interesting that you've

251
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:18,080
mentioned this as specific form
of media content emerged in our

252
00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:24,920
public broadcaster, we have a time
slot, I believe every Tuesday night,

253
00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:30,400
starting from 8 p.m. on RTS2,
China produced documentary

254
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,560
is being aired, it always deals
with the sentiment you mentioned,

255
00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:40,000
it deals with certain cultural event,
or with some part of Chinese culture,

256
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,720
which they regard relevant to be
promoted on a global level,

257
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:49,680
and we also have several cable
channels who started rebroadcasting

258
00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:55,600
content that focuses on China,
we have channels that deal with

259
00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:00,960
tourism, and there are weekly and
even daily shows, promoting

260
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,120
reasons for which we should
visit China and what we need

261
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:08,440
to see there as tourists,
but I actually wanted to initiate

262
00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:12,680
another matter with you.
You mentioned anti-Western

263
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:18,480
media and a pro-Russian,
let's call it, sentiment,

264
00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:23,200
and a way that could be compared,
how China is presented in media,

265
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,880
and how Russia is being presented.
Have you perhaps mapped out in your

266
00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:30,720
research, especially after the launch
of Russian aggression in Ukraine,

267
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:37,680
that there has been a shift in
the popularity of China in the

268
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:45,800
group of media that are anti
Western in their orientation?

269
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:48,560
Maybe, I could give an example.

270
00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:54,800
Some other researches indicate that
if we consider positive perception of

271
00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,840
citizens of the Republic of Serbia,
China has now become more popular

272
00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:05,360
than a Russian Federation. That is
to say, majority of Serbian citizens

273
00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:10,200
regard China in an affirmative context
rather than it's the case with Russia.

274
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,480
Especially after the war with
Ukraine had broken out.

275
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:16,600
Is there a similar situation
when it comes to the media?

276
00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,920
Well, when we speak about media,
China stands better than Russia,

277
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:25,360
because when it comes to Russia...
It is evident in our publications

278
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:32,040
on two-months basis, for instance,
in our latest publication, we have

279
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:36,120
established a trend from March 2022
to August 2023, we have made a

280
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,600
comperative analysis as to how
Russia and the United States

281
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,200
were presented within every month.
This analysis shows that Russia's

282
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:49,600
presentation was volatile, changeable,
unstable, for the first quarter period

283
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,680
it was rather strongly positive
since the start of the invasion.

284
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,160
Afterwards, it experienced drastic
fall, and it had periods of relative

285
00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,240
balance, with a slight preference
of affirmative articles, let's say

286
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,680
until March 2023, I say perchance,
because at this moment, there is

287
00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:07,440
tendency that affirmative articles
dominate over negative ones.

288
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,760
This is a trend for the start
of this year, and if we look at

289
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:17,600
the overall trends, we can say
that strongly positive trend

290
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,520
shifted to the partly neutral, only
to become moderately affirmative.

291
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,080
As for China, we have simply
continuous positive representation

292
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,120
which hasn't got ups and downs,
it is not so strongly affirmative as

293
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:35,360
was the case last year, but it is
still more positive not only compared

294
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:40,120
to Russia, but also compared to any
western country or Ukraine or Turkey.

295
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,440
As for western states, we have
a strong regularity that positive

296
00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:48,760
results are rather rare,
EU is probably positive,

297
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,680
or France, and this is
where the list ends.

298
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:56,640
All other countries are faced with a
red line, double digit percent zones.

299
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:03,320
I believe we now touched on
our next topic - Serbian citizens.

300
00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:07,040
In other words, public opinion.
This is also something that your

301
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:12,520
research is focused on. Maybe,
we should start with a basic issue.

302
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,160
To what extent is China relevant to
the citizens of Republic of Serbia,

303
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:22,040
in its capacity as our partner,
and whether they are interested

304
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,920
or whether they care how Serbia
cooperates with China and what

305
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,200
might be the repercussions
of that cooperation?

306
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,640
When it comes to public opinions,
we discovered a certain pattern

307
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:37,800
when it comes to China,
as on two-month level,

308
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,360
we have certain topic
regarding China.

309
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:42,920
Whenever we conducted research,
China was of our interest one way

310
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,040
or the other, both in a political
and economic aspect.

311
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:53,160
When speaking about the general view
of China, every poll since June 2022,

312
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,520
consists of 1 to 7 scales, measuring
different stakeholders, both states

313
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,440
and its leaders, and as a rule,
Russia, China and Hungary

314
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,680
had always had
the best average score.

315
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,960
It ranged from one to seven.
One being the worst, seven the best.

316
00:23:08,360 --> 00:23:11,080
They had around four,
an average score.

317
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,760
So, 4,50 was an average score
for all the three states.

318
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:22,000
Sometimes, Russia excelled, only
to be taken over by Hungary later.

319
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,680
Putin was the most popular
leader, or it was Orban...

320
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,160
China had a firm third place
as a state, and Xi Jinping as leader.

321
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,520
Their average score exceeded 4,
out of 7 as the highest rank.

322
00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:38,840
This is general opinion
that hadn't changed a lot.

323
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,480
When it comes to some specific
traits, there are certain changes.

324
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,560
Namely, China grows in citizens'
perception as economic partner,

325
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,880
but as political partner,
its growth is not significant.

326
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,040
We conduct polls every two-months,
asking our citizens whom they regard

327
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,840
as the most significant economic
partner or political partner.

328
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,120
In the political sphere, we always
have Russia as a leader,

329
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:05,840
second place belongs to European
Union, the third belongs to China.

330
00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:08,440
In a political sense, citizens
identify China but only as the third.

331
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,120
This is most common for
the ruling party voters

332
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,680
than for any of the opposition party.
Both far-right ones, or pro-EU

333
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:20,200
inclined voters. On the other hand,
when we regard economic partnership,

334
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:26,520
on the one hand, there is no aspect
of belief, at least not in our polls,

335
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,400
that the most important economic
and political partners of Serbia are

336
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,560
Russia and China. Namely, citizens
of Serbia realize that it's EU today.

337
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:37,680
Thanks to media monitoring,
we can claim that President of

338
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,240
Serbia takes most of credit for that,
who kept saying that European Union

339
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:46,840
is our most important economy partner,
it was communicated to the public.

340
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:48,800
That's why the citizens
also share that opinion.

341
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,200
The second rated is China,
with a growing share.

342
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,880
So, Serbian citizens regard China
as an important economic partner.

343
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,080
China occupies second position
with a double digit result.

344
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,480
Around 20 percent of citizens
regard China as such today.

345
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,360
Of course, there's the issue
of its current role and so on.

346
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,000
What seems to be important, and
what seems to be the reason why

347
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,960
the citizens do find it agreeable
to regard China as political partner,

348
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,000
even when we carried out focus
groups in places with Chinese

349
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,840
investments, even those citizens
who oppose Chinese investments,

350
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,240
or the ways in which those
investments are being implemented,

351
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,200
are not necessarily against
cooperation with China at macro level,

352
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,360
meaning on the level of bilateral
relations of Serbia and China.

353
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,800
The reason for this stands in the
fact, we see it in the media and

354
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,200
with the citizens, that China has
been presented as future super power.

355
00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:41,880
It should happen pretty soon,
meaning in the next decades,

356
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,160
according to citizens' perception.
When we asked them whom they

357
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:51,240
regard as a leading super power
in 2040, China leads with two-thirds.

358
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:53,600
Along with the United States,
with some fifteen percents...

359
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,840
Then Russia follows, with 10 percent,
and other countries with one-digits,

360
00:25:57,360 --> 00:25:59,440
such as India, European Union,
et cetera, et cetera...

361
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:05,160
This creates perception with the
citizens that this is the country

362
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,560
that will be a major decision-maker,
and that it is good for Serbia to

363
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,400
establish good relations with it.
It is also evident in focus groups.

364
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,200
When you want to check the findings
from the quantitative media research

365
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:19,760
by establishing the reasoning
that lies behind it.

366
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:24,200
Of course, there's a risk, which is
rather unusual, that the citizens

367
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,560
identify and that was not
present in the media before.

368
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:32,440
In the media, we haven't got a
story about our indebtedness

369
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:34,800
towards China, and the problems
that some states had faced with

370
00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:40,880
by becoming indebted to China,
for diverse infrastructure projects.

371
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,600
I would add here, not in those media
that are available to general public.

372
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,800
Yes, but I would say that this was
not a topic in other media as well,

373
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,720
in those media that are being read
by a certain subgroup, those that

374
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,200
have critical approach towards
the government's policies,

375
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,600
the other topic was not frequent
with those media as well.

376
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,880
On the other hand, focus groups
show that the citizens themselves

377
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,920
use to take up on that risk,
fretting our becoming burdened

378
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,560
with indebtedness towards
China, calling it problematic.

379
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,600
They do not cite world examples,
but it is as if they depict them.

380
00:27:18,120 --> 00:27:20,200
Meaning that if China's debt is
not settled, then China will take

381
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,080
over some of the infrastructures,
which is rather interesting,

382
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,240
given that the media hadn't
communicated it as hazardous.

383
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,960
There are also ecology related topics
that are vital for certain parts of

384
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,320
citizens, and where they feel
major distrust towards China.

385
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,320
It is interesting that you've
mentioned this issue...

386
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:46,160
Two things are crucial here.
The subjet of China in the media,

387
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,040
according to my experience,
is linked mainly with the events.

388
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,160
If we have some new joint
project announcement or

389
00:27:53,800 --> 00:28:01,760
major bilateral visit, media will
focus on this issue for days,

390
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,800
or maybe throughout longer
period of time, but it will soon

391
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,640
be trown into oblivion, returning to
standard communication channels.

392
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,760
On the other hand, although there
are scarce information on the risks

393
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,600
and challenges of establishing
cooperation between Serbia and

394
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,360
China, it seems that we still
witness that grassroot activist

395
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,000
moment on the local level,
where we have China investments,

396
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:34,920
which in a way raises consciousness,
often in a limited capacity, though.

397
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,760
This concern remains, but it doesn't
impact the general perception of the

398
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:44,320
citizens towards People's
Republic of China or Chinese

399
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,640
organizations that do
business in Serbia...

400
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:52,640
It is quite interesting question
concerning the positioning of

401
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:58,120
political parties, or people engaged
in creating public policies on both

402
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,520
local and national level,
maybe even on higher levels...

403
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,280
To cut to the final part of our
conversation, do you consider

404
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:12,240
China becoming so dominant
or polarized topic such as a

405
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,760
relationship between Serbia and
Russia for some political parties?

406
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,840
We had a campaign conducted prior
to parliamentary elections in 2020,

407
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,280
where one of the burning issues
was whether Serbia will introduce

408
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,840
sanctions to Russia or not, so this
was shifted to political discourse

409
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,360
after the elections. Do you think
that China becomes such a topic

410
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:37,600
for political parties, meaning also
for the citizens that do not deal

411
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,640
with politics but are
closely following it,

412
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,480
or you think that this topic will
remain relevant only to some

413
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,680
parts of the society, or the media,
not on such a high level that other

414
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,760
partners of Serbia are,
such as European Union,

415
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:59,080
maybe even the United States
of America or Russia?

416
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,920
In this sense, China is less
polarized topic in a way that,

417
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:10,320
if we look at the results of
citizens' viewpoints in relation

418
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:15,720
to China, the positions we have are
not so strong as in case of Russia,

419
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:20,480
and more precisely, Vladimir Putin.
This is so because we do not feel

420
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:27,960
such a deep sentiment towards China
as we feel towards anti-globalism.

421
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:35,360
If we review this eighteen-month
poll experience with our citizens,

422
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,760
we come to the point that Serbia's
expectations with regards to this

423
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,160
global liberal order established in
the world back in the nineties,

424
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:50,840
on the part of western countries,
is built on the detriment of Serbs.

425
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,520
Meaning that it's in Serbia's interest
to gather all the parties that oppose

426
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,320
it, not only western countries,
but including others as well,

427
00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:02,720
making them strong enough
to take down this order.

428
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,960
Be it China, as the most powerful
among them, according to citizens'

429
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,920
perception and also in reality,
economically wise. Be it also

430
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,840
Vladimir Putin's Russia, along with
Victor Orban in Hungary or perhaps

431
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,920
Donald Trump. For example,
Donald Trump has twice better

432
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,400
average score than Joe Biden,
if you ask our citizens.

433
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,080
The reason for that primarily
lies in his perception.

434
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,640
In that sense, China regards
it more or less as a tool...

435
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,000
So, it is a serious question whether
Russia would have scored so well

436
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:34,000
if it was led by Navalny or Chubais,
instead of Putin, for instance.

437
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,160
It probably wouldn't.
It would then reach a red zone...

438
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:41,120
The same goes for France,
if it's being led by Marine Le Pen.

439
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,960
It is more up to this.
This is the reason why

440
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,560
China is being instrumentalized
as counterbalance to the West,

441
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,040
with which we should cooperate
as circumstances might change.

442
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,440
In 2040, China will be regarded as
super power, it's a good perspective

443
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,040
for Serba. So, China is still not
a polarized issue in that

444
00:31:58,560 --> 00:31:59,680
whole package of
anti-Western rhetoric.

445
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:01,400
However, China is rather
important element.

446
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,000
I want to wrap up this discussion
with yet another question.

447
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,080
As a state, Serbia is not in
disagreement with numerous

448
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:15,040
states on the global level, yet
it fully support the One China policy.

449
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:21,000
The One China policy is the
position that there is only one

450
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:23,560
sovereign state under
the name China, while all

451
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:28,480
disputed territories are understood
to be Beijing-administered territories

452
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,640
including Taiwan, which is
a de facto independent state

453
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,360
according to many other criteria,
although unrecognized by the

454
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:42,280
large number of states.
You and your organization

455
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:48,160
are among a few who managed to
establish cooperation with one

456
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,880
organization from Taiwan or with
representative office of Taiwan

457
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:58,280
in Budapest. I am aware that you
are not in a position to reveal all

458
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:06,720
information but I would like you to
inform us broadly on your attempts

459
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:12,160
to organize an event that Taiwan
has been focused on.

460
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,600
So, an event that is not focused on
the Central China but on Taiwan

461
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:23,240
as a disputed entity that can be
perceived as integral part of China.

462
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:32,920
As for our cooperation, our leading
idea was to hold an event that would

463
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:38,000
deal with different approaches of
China as a state, in terms of its

464
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,840
communication towards our region,
and especially focusing on Serbia

465
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,200
as the most important partner
of China in this region, and

466
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:50,960
towards the island of Taiwan,
where things are different.

467
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,600
So we wanted to compare experiences
of an event taking place in our region

468
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:58,240
and in the South China Sea.
When it comes to Taiwan,

469
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:02,040
there are lots of disinformation
coming from China, the campaign

470
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,720
itself is rather aggressive,
while when it comes to our region,

471
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,600
we have moderately positive
messages, cooperation with

472
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,440
the state of Serbia, with an attempt
to cooperate with state bodies and

473
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,800
state institutions, and so on.
It is different in Taiwan.

474
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:20,160
Our aim was to see the
differencies.

475
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,640
Of course, it always carries some
controversy in itself for several

476
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,880
reasons, one of the main ones
being that when you communicate

477
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:32,680
with Taiwan, you are opposing
state policy that does not recognize

478
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:37,720
Taiwan as an independent state.
The second element is that there

479
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:48,760
is certain reserve when it comes
to any criticizing tones on China,

480
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,080
as when you see that we posted
several polls about Taiwan,

481
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,200
we came to the conclusion that
Taiwan is being looked upon as

482
00:34:57,720 --> 00:35:03,600
a new Ukarine by our citizens
and in the media, interpreted

483
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:09,240
by Russian propaganda as
new U.S. satellite state,

484
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:15,280
serving to challenge the bigger power
in order to make certain state weaker

485
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:17,720
through the American money.
This is how both Ukraine and

486
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,160
Taiwan are being presented,
without any particular comments.

487
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,440
So, we established cooperatin with
Taiwan in relation to that specific

488
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,800
event that was being organized,
and given that COVID measures

489
00:35:28,240 --> 00:35:30,520
were being in effect back then,
it was realized in online sphere,

490
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:32,560
and that's what made this event
rather controversial back then.

491
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,680
It was rather interesting and
this is the issue that we didn't

492
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,080
mention, just as an
additional information...

493
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,600
When you look at the data of
the National Bank of Serbia,

494
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,800
up to 2021, you will see that
we had separate findings for China,

495
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,600
along with Chinese province
Taiwan and Hong Kong.

496
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:54,680
However, if you visit the portal of
the National Bank of Serbia today,

497
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,120
you have One China, with a note
written in small letters at the bottom

498
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,920
of the page that these include
data on Hong Kong and Taiwan.

499
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,440
On Taipei...
-Yes, Chinese Taipei...

500
00:36:07,240 --> 00:36:12,040
Our state policy is even stricter
when it comes to the position of

501
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:16,120
Taiwan, it is less being perceived
as a separate entity than we used

502
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,960
to regard it as such in the past.
-The policy of our organization

503
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:27,560
is that someone from Serbia should
nurture relations with Taiwan,

504
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,360
and further develop them, as
all establish relations with China,

505
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,080
but we don't know what the future
brings in political circumstances,

506
00:36:35,720 --> 00:36:39,280
whether due to international pressure
and the region where Serbia belongs,

507
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,120
we would be forced to change
our policy, we don't know

508
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,760
what course international relations
would take in the next decade...

509
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,680
Taiwan is currently on the opposite
side of the Beijing government...

510
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:56,120
Until that happens, what seems
relevant now is that Serbia,

511
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:04,840
as a state aspiring to join
European Union one day,

512
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,400
will adjust its policy with official
policy of the European Union,

513
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,840
as EU also currently supports
One China policy, so I believe

514
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:17,240
that both in narratives and in
media appearances and reports,

515
00:37:17,720 --> 00:37:21,560
the presentation of China
would remain the same.

516
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,560
It will not differ much compared to
the perception of our EU partners,

517
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,000
along with the stance of
the United States of America.

518
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,120
I would end this discussion for
the time being, although I believe

519
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:39,520
that there's room for deeper insight
into many issues that we've launched.

520
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,720
I would like to thank you sincerely
for your time and for providing

521
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,040
insight into the activities of your
organization, but also into the

522
00:37:48,720 --> 00:37:55,680
main aspects of media presentation
of China and media coverage of

523
00:37:56,240 --> 00:37:58,240
the cooperation between
Serbia and China in Serbia,

524
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:03,840
along with the brief insight
in Serbian public opinion,

525
00:38:04,720 --> 00:38:07,120
and what Serbian citizens say
when being asked about China.

526
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,680
My brief conclusion would be
that this will continue to be

527
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:18,240
a dominant topic in the next decade,
or two or three decades,

528
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,400
but certainly a topic that has
a potential to develop further,

529
00:38:23,720 --> 00:38:28,360
on some, let's say, higher level,
as it seems that it is not yet

530
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,880
proportionate to the cooperation
between Serbia and China,

531
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,440
while it is in our interest,
judging by media content,

532
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:43,200
that this should be balanced
and leveled off in near future.

533
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:49,360
We will see where it will get
us when we meet next time.

534
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,960
Until then, I want to thank
you for being our guest,

535
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,480
and I am certain that you will
continue to do great job in

536
00:38:57,760 --> 00:38:59,240
future, as you
had done so far.

537
00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:01,960
Thank you for giving me the
opportunity to present our work.

538
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:06,160
I am also certain that this topic
will gain relevance in future,

539
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,240
due to the intensity of cooperation
that Serbia decided to establish

540
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,840
with China, so I believe that in
a year and a half, when we finish

541
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,960
this project cycle, we would be
able to make a retrospective,

542
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,200
presenting all the events that
took place in this turbulent time,

543
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,080
both when it comes to relations
between Serbia and China, and

544
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,440
Serbian foreign policy in general,
as perceived by our citizens.

545
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:26,680
Dimitrije, many thanks
once again.

546
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:28,440
You're welcome.
Thank you for inviting me.