Hello and welcome.

My name is Russell Trafford-Jones and thanks for joining me.

This is Broadcast Focus, the show where we look behind the scenes of broadcast media and the entertainment industry by chatting to the people that make it happen.

It's a small independent channel so thanks to everyone who supports it by liking, subscribing and of course watching.

We cover both technical and non-technical topics here, so as long as it relates to media it will be here.

One of the pleasures of doing the show is I get to talk to some of the most active people in the industry who are really moving the needle and today is far from an exception as I welcome to the show co-founder of the Talent Manifesto, Carrie Wootten.

Hi Russell, thank you so much.

What a lovely introduction.

I'm really looking forward to chatting with you today.

You're the co-founder of the Global Media and Entertainment Talent Manifesto.

I remember that starting almost a year ago.

We'll cover what you've got up to but what's the idea behind the Talent Manifesto?

Yeah, it started through a conversation between myself and Chris Redmond, who is a recruiter in the industry, talking about the skill shortages in technical and engineering roles and the lack of diversity more broadly.

And it was just kind of a conversation between us going, we need to do something.

What can we do?

What does that look like?

This idea of working together to build a manifesto to deliver action and change led us to setting up the Talent Manifesto and from there it's just spiralled and I think when we first set it up we were quite surprised at the amount of interest that we had because I suppose it was a conversation between us that we weren't expecting it to kind of resonate but actually it did.

It resonated hugely and then that's kind of, as I said, spiralled into the work that we've delivered over the last year.

So it's there really to look at skills, education and diversity as the kind of headlines and ensuring that we work collaboratively and globally across the industry to, as you said, to drive change and ensure action happens.

So what's your year looked like to setting that up?

Do you know what, it's been a whirlwind and I can't quite believe we're in the run-up to Christmas.

I don't even understand where the year's gone but it's been super busy and I'm so pleased that industry's got behind our work.

We've delivered all sorts of different initiatives which include our work with schools around neurodiversity, the Skills Cafe at IBC.

It's been a real pleasure working with partners across the sector to see how we can collaborate and deliver initiatives that do have meaningful impact and do drive change and yeah it's been, as I said, a whirlwind but I'm one that I've really enjoyed the pride of and I'm looking forward to seeing what we can do with our new strategy Action 25.

So we've spoken on the show before about the difficulty of getting a proper funnel of interest into the industry and it's not just the industry but into STEM.

I was a bit alarmed talking to people like Polly Hickling and Susan Pratt about the seemingly drying up just of general interest in technology, whether or not they know what happens behind the camera or otherwise.

There seems to be a heck of a lot to do there but on the other hand it feels like I know what to do because, you know, you need to talk to people, to use people.

Now if you're going to look at this as touching the whole industry, well the whole of the technology sector, that's pretty big.

Did you say there's a specific broadcast, I mean here you say media and entertainment.

Is there a media and entertainment focus specifically for you, albeit you know that perhaps the root of the problem is a wider issue?

Yeah, I think you've summed it up.

Our work is definitely focused on the media technology sector, without a doubt media and entertainment technology sector.

And you're right, the broader conversation is around STEM subjects and children's interest in STEM subjects.

However, I think we have a unique challenge in our industry in that young people and teachers and parents don't know about a lot of the job roles that exist in our bit of the sector and I would argue that actually they do know about technology jobs more broadly.

So although the challenge is huge in technology generally, I think we've got a unique challenge in ensuring that we, exactly as you said, we inspire, we educate, we inform young people and teachers about our industry and the job roles that exist within it.

And I think we've got an even more unique challenge now in that we don't even know what half the job roles are going to be at the moment with technology and innovation happening so rapidly.

We as an industry are struggling to keep up with it so then we understand the kind of skills needs that we need to have as an industry that actually then ensuring that we can educate teachers and young people about it is an even bigger challenge.

So I think the whirlwind that we find ourselves in this kind of chasm of skill shortages, lack of diversity, rapid innovation is the perfect storm for what we're experiencing at the moment.

So yeah, you're right, we do have a technology challenge societally and economically but I think our bit of the industry is perhaps a little bit more challenging as well.

From my background being on the technical side, I'm always guilty of only really thinking of the technical side of the industry.

Partly because when we talk about skill shortages it seems to be around that side but of course would you say that this is just as applicable to the creative side?

I think they exist on both sides for sure.

I think in the production side of things there are specific job roles, for example accountancy, like it's well known that production accountants are there's a real skill shortage in and actually organisations like ScreenSkills do really put a spotlight on where there are specific job challenges and are doing great work around production to try and address that.

But I think for us as a sector we do, of course I'm going to say this aren't I, but I do think we have it tougher and I think there's a couple of reasons for that.

One is the media technology industry, I don't think is recognised at a government level.

Even though we underpin content distribution everywhere, content can't be distributed without the infrastructure and networks that we as the technical industry put in place.

But our bit of the industry doesn't get so much funding to address skill shortages.

I feel like I know how to fight against the shortage of young people coming in by visiting schools, exposing what the media industry jobs are, but with respect to the skills shortage I find that harder to understand what to do with.

What's your angle on helping with the skills shortage?

That's part of the reason that the manifesto exists.

Within schools, yeah I think we've got so much more work to do there.

We know that teachers don't have an understanding of the job roles that exist, so our approach is kind of twofold I suppose.

One is to go into schools and deliver these hands-on workshops that ensure young people understand the breadth of roles across the industry.

We've been working closely with ITV and Google and other partners to deliver that work.

And then it's about ensuring we reach numbers.

I think this is the other thing, like we know that we can work with small groups.

So actually it's going back to your original point, the scale of what we're trying to deliver to ensure that change happens, to ensure that pipeline changes, is massive.

And actually we're scratching the surface with the schools workshops.

So the other bit of work that we've been doing is assemblies, the school assemblies, and people going in and talking about their job roles and the industry.

So although that's not hands-on and practical as the workshops are, it's ensuring that we're talking about the industry more broadly too, in numbers, and that we're at least kind of getting the ideas in people's, young people's heads about the industry and what that industry involves.

So I think there's brilliant people out there doing this in their spare time, but we need to all do it.

We all need to take responsibility and ensure that we're going into primary schools and secondary schools.

And I think if we can all do that individually in the industry and the amount of change that could happen would be enormous.

Obviously people are busy and schedules are, you know, deadlines happen and it does take away from the impetus to do this kind of work.

But I think we have a moment in time right now, and I suppose that would be my call to arms to everybody watching and listening to this, is that we know there's such rapid innovation happening that the size and shape and scale of the industry might change, the technology is going to change.

But if we don't get this right now and we don't invest and ensure that we put the resources into finding and supporting and encouraging diverse talent, then we're never going to see things change.

We've got to start taking action and that comes down to companies, departments, and individuals as well.

Is there an answer of trying to get people in from other industries?

Yeah, yeah, without a doubt, without doubts.

So at the World Skills Café we had six different themes, but one of them was transferable skills actually.

So we had two representatives, one was an ex-offender and one was ex-military.

So really kind of looking at diverse communities more broadly alongside diverse characteristics that we traditionally know about.

When we were looking at diversity, we wanted to reach as far and as wide as possible.

If you talk to Mark and Jazzy, who are the two representatives on that table, they're really clear about the skill sets and the talents that they can bring to our industry, the values and the strength and the skill sets that they have that can transform our industry as well.

But I think we're hesitant to do that when actually we should be looking at those transferable skills.

But I think that sits alongside the conversation around, as somebody called it, the upskilling architecture.

So it's a new word that I hadn't come up with, but somebody at the café did, which is around the pathways into the industry and what those pathways look like.

So we traditionally rely on school, college, university.

That is traditionally, and particularly when you're talking about engineering and technical roles.

But actually we know that we can bring a breadth of expertise and knowledge and skill sets from other industries, from other communities, that they're not necessarily going to take that A, B, C, D route, right?

So we need to find other systems, courses, processes to bring that talent in.

And I think that's some of the work that the manifesto is doing at the moment is looking at what that upskilling architecture, to use that phrase, is.

Is that a boot camp?

Does that boot camp need to be three weeks, six weeks, a month, three months?

What does that look like when we need to support that talent in?

So absolutely, I really am quite passionate about that talent can come from everywhere.

We know that there's lots of talent out there, both young and older with different professional expertise and backgrounds.

So we've got to utilise it and ensure that we bring that talent in.

We were talking about that the other week on the show with Radnor, when talking about radio tech con.

The video showed from one of last year's talks was about supporting older workers in the workplace.

And part of it was a midlife MOT where an employer would talk to people of that age and say, how are you set for the rest of your career?

What are you doing?

But also making sure that you've thought through how your company operates and supports people aged 55 or over.

We have got an ageing employee base and that's fine.

Why make it hard?

Right, let's invest.

And I think that's a really important point.

Those people are really valid and have amazing skillsets.

And we don't want to lose that knowledge either.

And that knowledge needs to be passed on as well.

So I think when we're talking about diversity, we're talking about the breadth of characteristics and age is absolutely one of them.

That's why I bring it up, because every time somebody mentions another type of diversity, why didn't I think of that?

It's a mindset really, and it's important.

So tell me about the Skills Cafe at IBC.

What was the premise?

So the World Skills Cafe was instigated because we know that we've got skill shortages.

As an industry, we've talked about that for a long time.

We've also talked about the lack of diversity.

So we wanted to bring everybody together to really talk about how we collaborate together and address these issues.

And that kind of global forum has never been held before.

So we had these amazing partners who were involved who were kind of driving this work as well.

And the intention was really to look at six specific areas.

So the areas that we were covering were feature technology, education, recruitment, retention, transferable skills, as we've just mentioned, and diversity as well.

And have discussions around what does that actually mean for industry and how can we deliver initiatives, programs of work that can drive change.

And that was the premise of it.

And it was amazing.

We had over 100 people in the room, all talking about six different areas.

And I kick him away roughly with over 100 pages of notes from all of the people in the room of just thoughts, recommendations, what do we need to do?

What does that look like?

What are the initiatives that we can deliver as an industry to drive change?

So I have to say it did take me a while to digest all the 100 pages and kind of distill that.

But what has now emerged from that amazing contribution that all those industry professionals in the room contributed to is now this kind of action 25, which is our action and strategy for next year in 2025 of what we can do as an industry to ensure that change happens.

So it was, I suppose, a bit of an experiment to see whether we could do something like this.

ABC is very much focused on industry and discussions around where the industry is at the moment.

But I kind of huge thanks to IBC because they totally got on board with this and backed the cafe as well.

And, you know, that kind of linked very nicely into their talent strand on Monday, which topped and tailed IBC this year.

It was a significant moment that showcases that actually the industry is taking this stuff seriously and actually does want to see change happen.

And as you said at the beginning, you know, change that it's really critical that we do that now, thanks to IBC and to all of those partners that enabled that.

We now have clear objectives of what we want to do next year.

And the intention is that this will be reviewed annually, that we will go back to IBC next year and have the Skills Cafe, World Skills Cafe again there.

We could go, OK, right, OK, this is what we said we wanted to deliver.

What have we done?

What impact does it have?

And then what do we need to do?

Because as we kind of indicated earlier, the skills and the needs are going to change and evolve continuously.

So it's really important that we do that review as well.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

It sounds like it's going to be a mammoth session next IBC.

You took your notes and you weren't even reporting on your success of implementing the previous World Skills Cafe.

And I think, yeah, I was just going to say, and actually, you know, it was held the day before IBC even started.

So actually, you know, all of those people had taken the time out of their diaries and committed to come to that event.

And I think that just demonstrates how much value people see in ensuring that we talk about this stuff and that we can all collaborate together and hold conversations.

Everybody's coming at it from slightly different perspectives.

You know, an OB company will have a different perspective to a streamer, you know, versus a vendor like it's all everybody's coming at it slightly differently.

But everybody knows that this is really important and that change needs to happen.

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, if we were there in terms of diversity and we were there in terms of not really having to worry too much about skill shortages, then people wouldn't make as much of an effort, would they?

Yeah.

And how amazing would that be?

I'd be out of a job, Russell.

Yes.

So the idea of the Action 25, you see it as your manifesto for the coming year, right?

And you're also asking people to come along for the rides, to find the ones that they vibe with.

Yeah, it resonates with them.

And the idea is to see which ones make the most sense to you.

What kind of things are we going to be talking about over the next year?

Okay.
So one of the key ones is a skills map.

We've talked a bit about schools and educating both young people, children and parents and teachers.

What we don't have at the moment is a skills map of kind of understanding what are the skills that we need and what are the job roles we're looking at.

So this one resonated so much with so many people in the room once it'd been suggested.

And so that's one of the big ones that we want to achieve next year, mapping the job roles for now and the future.

Sitting alongside that is continuing the work we've done around schools and delivering those workshops.

I think that's a critical bit as we've discussed today.

We've delivered some of that this year in 2024, but it's definitely something that we want to continue and expand on in 2025.

One of the other ones is encouraging companies to undertake a diversity accreditation mark.

So we know that there's great accreditation marks out there that kind of focus on diversity, but not all companies in the industry will have undertaken that mark.

Some will have done, but some won't have done.

So we're really trying to encourage all companies to commit to undertaking one of those accreditation marks.

And we're going to have a list of companies that do that.

We're working it through at the moment.

I'm talking to a couple of companies, but I think the company that I'm hoping we can go with is going to almost provide like a bronze, silver, gold status.

So this is the kind of work we're doing for diversity.

And we've now got to a match of bronze, but we're working towards trying to get our silver, which involves another XYZ pieces of work and initiatives to happen.

We're not going to reinvent that wheel.

There are other brilliant companies that do that externally that we're just pointing to.

I think it's really important that we as an industry understand where we are as a baseline, and then we can kind of.

Again, it's signposting companies to say, Oh, this is a good idea.

And most people will say, yeah, I think it would be.

You spent some time during the year with a survey for neurodiversity and surveying the industry.

So actually the survey on neurodiversity happened a year ago.

It was this time last year.

And the reason that came about is because when I was talking about the manifesto and looking at skills and skill shortages and engineering and technical roles, this kind of phrase kept coming out where people were like, well, of course, all engineers in the area are diverse.

I'm like, well, aren't any?
Who on earth has said that?

Has there been any research on this?

Is that true?

And it kept coming up time and time again.

And I was like, actually, okay, if we're trying to address skill shortages in engineering and technical roles, this could be really critical in how we approach recruitment and supporting young people into these job roles.

I really wanted to get under the skin of what does this actually mean?

So yes, we ran a survey last year.

I haven't published the findings.

I've kept that to the team at the manifesto, but all of the feedback was saying, actually, we don't have a community in the industry.

We'd love a mentoring program.

We'd love some leadership to happen so that leaders can understand what it means to be neurodiverse, how to support neurodiverse colleagues and teams.

And it was extraordinary to see how much support was needed and wanted.

That led to a pilot mentoring program at the beginning of the year.

I wanted to keep it small because it was a new area for me.

And I wanted to just see whether actually mentoring would work and actually was the right pathway to go.

And actually, it was one of the most, honestly, extraordinary experiences for me personally, getting to meet and work with all of these amazing professionals across the industry.

But what was really fascinating is that it was more than 50%.

I think it was probably more like 70% actually of the mentees didn't want me to share their name or who they were on any social media or on any LinkedIn post or with anybody at all, because they were worried about the impact that it would have on their career, their promotional opportunities, what their colleagues would say, what their managers would say.

And I just found that absolutely heartbreaking that actually we think that we've come quite far with diversity, but actually weren't like, let's take this for, we just haven't.

And it was a really brilliant program.

And alongside that, we have delivered some leadership training as well.

And we've just launched our second mentoring program as well.

So we're just going through the pairing process.

Yeah, it is amazing.

So we've got 20 on the program this time round, and we're just going through the pairing for the mentees and mentors that will begin in December and carry on through to next year.

But it's been a huge learning curve for me, and I'm so thankful for all of the people that have given up their time to support it.

I remember I was interviewing Richard Welch for an article in Tube Europe, and he said that one of his plans when he took up the vice presidency of SMPTE years ago was to focus on supporting neurodiversity, commenting that some of his best programmers have been neurodiverse.

For him, he sees that as a, you know, just part of the workforce he needs to affect what he wants to create and where his company goes.

I think there is a lot of work with leadership to say, well, look, this is something which can be good.

Obviously, no one's really debating that, but how do you go about managing that and making sure that you do things correctly?

It feels great to have your input.

People shouldn't be ashamed of saying, you know, neurodiverse, this is who I am, this is what I am right now.

But on the other hand, it kind of verges on being like a part of your medical history, and traditionally we keep that quiet, right?

It's a weird grey area for management or a leader to cry in.

Yeah, that question comes up quite a lot, particularly when people are interviewing for jobs like whether they should declare it.

But I think this is why this work is so important, because the more that we can have a conversation around neurodiversity and workplace adjustments and what people need, then actually it will become more natural and people will feel more comfortable in sharing that information and they'll feel that they're supported.

And I think that's a critical thing.

And that comes down to diversity more broadly in terms of the culture of organisations and ensuring that people do feel comfortable sharing that information.

But yeah, absolutely, you know, it has that medical side to it as well.

But it's really critical that we have this conversation, and I think we just haven't done as yet.

So I think, and just coming back to that point about whether people should declare or not declare, I think it's entirely down to the individual and I, you know, that in terms of how they feel.

I'm really pleased with the community that we're starting to build now and people feeling as though they're heard as well and that they're not isolated.

If you are feeling isolated, that must be a pretty lonely and tough place.

And that's definitely come up in the conversations I've had.

So hopefully this work will be sure that that doesn't happen anymore.

Definitely, yeah.

And that's a similar situation in terms of that loneliness.

On the next point about ensuring programmes for underrepresented communities, LGBTQ+, and all of the others that are listed there, where you feel you're not part of the group.

You're not represented.

Yeah, absolutely.

And as I said earlier, we've done great strides as an industry on gender diversity.

We're not there yet, by the way, like we haven't got that solved.

And that's why there are brilliant organisations out there continuing that work and trending forward.

If we look at ethnicity, we have such an extraordinarily bad representation.

Same with disability, as we said, same with LGBTQ+.

We've got to do more to change this.

We have to.

And this came up as a big theme in the conversations at the Skills Cafe.

So the idea is to have a mentoring programme for those underrepresented communities as well.

This is going to take time to change the dialogue on this one.

It's not going to be something that a mentoring programme on its own is going to change.

But we've got to do something.

We have to start to move that needle slightly.

Yeah, indeed.

So what we've seen with RISE is that the mentoring obviously helps the mentees.

It also helps the mentors.

But it really has been a way of celebrating talent and raising awareness.

I would imagine that hopefully the mentoring programmes that you've already started, but also for the one we're just discussing now, will have that kind of secondary benefit of at least now we've got a way of focusing and you have awards and this and the other.

It's a pretty good way of making sure the industry is aware that some people are talking about this for conversations and more.

Absolutely.

And I think that's the whole point of doing it.

It has that ripple effect.

Once you have a cohort and then you go on to a second cohort, that's when momentum starts to happen.

And as you say, the spotlight is on the conversations.

The more that we can do that, the more awareness there will be, the more commitment there will be for change.

So it's really important that we start to do this.

We want to see diversity change in our industry.

And the skill shortage change, for me, they're not inseparable.

They're completely interlinked.

So we have to do something.

This is the start of trying to make that change happen.

Yes.

We already spoke about the idea of a boot camp.

I think people wanted to come in.

So the phrasing here is we support the development of a boot camp.

It's not necessarily a plan to start one immediately and say, let's get together.

What would it look like?

Yeah.
And that's really related to the next point,

which is around having a bit more research on what specific roles there are shortages in.

I don't think we've got that data at the moment.

For example, the IaBM did a brilliant survey earlier this year, which showed that 80% of their members still struggle to recruit technical and engineering staff.

But now we need to go, OK, so you're struggling.

But which roles is that in?

At which levels of seniority?

So until we get that granular data, I don't think we can fully address it.

And the boot camp might be a way of solving some of that.

So I think those two are quite interlinked as well.

But we do need that deeper analysis so we really understand what we can do to address these shortages in those specific roles.

Yeah, indeed.

And what's the next point about rooms?

Young people.

Do you know what, Russell?

This is so fascinating.

So we had some students and graduates in the room at the cafe, and language came up time and time again.

And young people saying broadcast doesn't mean anything.

Media technology doesn't mean anything.

Content creation doesn't mean anything.

All the terminology we use on a daily basis, it just wasn't resonating or meaning anything to the young people.

And it came up in all of the conversations, I think, pretty much all of the tables because we want to ensure that we bring a diverse pipeline of young talent into the industry.

We've got to be able to communicate with them and for them to understand what it is we're trying to sell to them in terms of job roles.

So we all came away going, we've got to dig a bit deeper into these roundtables, dig a bit deeper into this conversation around language.

And let's have some roundtables and talk to young people and find out what do they mean when they think about the content that they're watching on YouTube or the content they're watching on TikTok?

What do they view that as?

I think this is a really important part of the work that we need to do next year.

I think that it's as much about making sure that companies who want to reach out, as well as individuals are reaching out in the right way.

It's almost accepted now that if you want to put some videos on Facebook, then you're going to get a certain demographic, which is not going to be the demographic you're looking for to get young people in.

On the other hand, I'm very aware that if you just shove something on TikTok or threads or whatever, then it doesn't necessarily help because it's just going to be someone talking in a totally different way, which isn't really going to have any resonance at all.

So I like the idea that this pledge here is more deep analysis and conversation than that.

But the learning can be spread and used by people across the industry to better engage.

Yeah, exactly.

It's a bit tricky to talk to someone who's 30 years younger than you.

Exactly.

And also, I'm quite fascinated to find out like what language, what words and terminology they use.

So yeah, I think there's going to be a really fascinating one that will hopefully be insightful and useful as well.

Pledge number nine is a very easy one.

It's supporting World Skills Cafe IBC 2025.

Yeah.

The last two, 10 and 10A are about supporting the Talent Manifesto directly.

Yeah.

We obviously can't deliver any of this work unless we've got some financial support and backing.

We know that the industry is in a tough place at the moment.

But as I said earlier, we are in a really, I think, specific moment in time where we can change things.

We need investment to continue this work, launch the mentoring programs and the bootcamps and the roundtables.

So if anybody would like to support in that way, it would be very much welcomed.

And please drop me a message.

And then the last one is about having that regional perspective and having regional leads across the globe.

We know that there'll be nuances between the US and Europe.

So even though these themes and actions are global, we know there'll be slightly different perspectives and slightly different nuances in terms of where people want to focus.

So we're looking for regional leads and regional advisory boards.

I'm pleased to say we've already got some of those on board already, which is amazing.

So we've got leads in Europe, US, and South Africa, actually.

So I'm just working on APAC.

But we're looking for other people to join as well.

So please let me know if you're interested in the more than area.

Absolutely.

If you're looking for motivation and a way to focus your thoughts on this, it's hard enough to imagine delivering fully on the schools program within the UK.

Imagine trying to get into all the schools across Europe, South Africa, APAC.

There's a lot to do.

But that is what's needed.

I think that's why the skills map could be super helpful, because that'll be something tangible we can send to all those schools.

The workshops is more challenging, I grant you, but it's critical.

But yeah, I mean, all of it needs to be done.

So the end of that, what we just saw there, those 10 pledges, you're looking for people to sign up for it.

Is it people or organizations primarily?

Obviously, financially, it's more likely to come from organizations.

But if you're listening and you're out there and you've got a spare million or so, then I'm in here.

But of course, we need individuals as well.

We need individuals to contribute to the development of that skills map.

That's not going to be something that I'm just going to come up with.

That's definitely got to be a global collaborative effort for everybody to think about what that skills map looks like, the shape of it, what it includes.

The same with the roundtables.

It's not just going to be a roundtable in London.

It's got to be global, right?

It's got to have that global international perspective.

So we need individuals to help contribute and lead those discussions.

Absolutely, organizations and individuals.

So people can go to your website, which is mediatalentmanifesto.com and contact there.

Become a member at the top.

There we go.

But that's always going to be the touchpoint for the work in schools and university and everything like that.

Great place to go.

You're living up to your name.

You've got a manifesto for the next year.

Yes.

Do you know what?

It feels like quite a lot of progress to get to that point as well, actually, that we now have something really clear and tangible that we can get people to sign up.

Yeah.
They're all evidence-based.

People have said, this is what we need to now.

There's a lot of action to be done.

A lot of action.
Good luck with that.

Looking forward to being part of it.

And hopefully, year by year, you'll be accruing new people and doing more and more.

Well, I just wanted to finish it by saying thank you to Becky and Fiona from PageMelia PR for supporting the channel and making sure that we get all of our episodes up and running.

Thanks very much, Carrie, for joining me.

My pleasure.
Thank you so much for having me.

Everybody can show their appreciation for you being on the show by clicking like, making sure you're subscribed.

I appreciate everything you're doing, Carrie, and hopefully, we can have you on for an update in the coming months.

Yeah, we'd love that.

Thanks, Russell.

Thanks.