Hello and thank you for joining me. My name is Russell Trafford-Jones and this is Broadcast
Focus where we take a look at the broadcast industry, we look at the people and the technology
behind it. And today I'm very, very pleased to introduce Polly Hickling. How are you doing,
Polly?
Okay, thank you.
Thanks for joining me. Now you're with Eviden at the moment, but you've done a lot of work
with RISE, which is our topic today. For people who don't know, how would you describe RISE?
So RISE has been around for a number of years now. I first got involved in RISE probably
about 2018. So my involvement was from when I worked at Solent. So we had graduates who
would leave and then they would join the mentoring program, absolutely amazing mentoring program.
And I can safely say, definitely kept some of my graduates in the industry.
What's the role of that mentoring and of RISE in general?
So mentors come from across the industry, men and women mentors, and they support generally
kind of more junior people entering the industry, finding their way, finding their feet in their,
maybe their first role or maybe, you know, looking to move into different roles. Yeah,
we've had lots of Solent graduates go through that mentoring scheme and had great successes
after doing that as well.
That's great. So yeah, and I think it's definitely been very positive to have an advocacy group
for gender equality. And whilst you're not speaking for RISE today, we both care. And
they came up with a really interesting survey that we just really wanted to have a look
through and talk about because, you know, it matters. It's also interesting. And, you
know, there's some important new points that have been brought up in that. So you would
give us a little bit of an intro on what this business side of diversity is.
Well, firstly, I just wanted to say, I think it's really, really important that we have
reports like this. So, like, you know, well done to RISE and to Coretta for putting this
together because without having this kind of data, which clearly states the state that
we're in, you know, both in diversity, but, you know, in terms of, you know, getting people
into the industry and all these kind of things that we're all talking about, without having
that data, we don't really know if what we think is happening is actually happening.
So I was really, really pleased to see this report come out and actually give us some
proper data and information from the focus groups. But it's all around kind of where
we're at with DEI in the media technology space, you know, and discusses, you know,
where we're at with comparison to where we think we're at and where we think we should
be at. So it really nicely frames that with a lot of contribution from industry to there.
So, yeah, really, really pleased to see this report come out.
So we're going to have a look through, you know, not everyone's going to read reports
and that's totally okay. So I think this is just another way of accessing that information.
And, you know, we all need to be, we all need to, I think, really take a bit of care and
pay some attention to how the industry is and not just, you know, getting shows on air.
It needs to be a little bit more than that. So, yeah, it's put together between RISE and
Coretta research. And so I think one of the important things is really just to cover what
DEI is. This is the first time that things have been explicitly about diversity in the
wider dimension rather than just gender diversity. You're able to say something a bit more about
DEI?
Yeah, but, you know, what you've just said there, I think that's really important because
we've spent a long time talking about gender diversity, obviously super important. And
as the report will go on to show and we'll discuss, there is lots around that. But there
are other aspects of inclusivity that certainly coming from the educational background, coming
through seeing the students come through, you know, diversity affects a whole range
of different aspects of the human beings. So, yeah, it's nice to see kind of touches
on as it says there, you know, ethnicities, abilities, genders, cultures and life experiences
and the importance of having that represented in the workplace and contributions from diverse.
I was talking to Rich Walsh, I think it was last year for an article and he started talking
about neurodiversity within the workplace, which is also the first time I'd really heard
that being addressed. And so I guess, you know, the different abilities of people in
terms of how they are, how they are in terms of the mental, it's not really about mental
health, it's just different characteristics, isn't it really? There's no normal.
Different ways that people's brains work.
Yeah. And, you know, he's had a long history in terms of putting companies together, which
have a lot of software developers and he says, you know, I need people of all different ways
of looking at life and problems to get the results that his successful companies have
done. So this starts with, I mean, the first real heading here is 12% of media technology
vendors, vendor CEOs are women. So this is the first time that it kind of pits vendors
versus buyer organizations, which I guess are loosely speaking broadcasters, but obviously
it could be anyone who I think buyers can be as much as rights holders and streaming
only companies, perhaps some other companies that come under buyer organizations. And so
this bit here really, so women represent 12% of media technology vendor CEOs and 20% of
engineers in buyer organizations, it's higher, so it's 22% and 24% of engineers. Is that
a surprise do you think, Polly?
Well, it's not a surprise because this is something that we have been talking about
for a while. We've spent quite a while talking about how many women are there in the C-suite.
So it kind of wasn't a surprise, but it's really nice to see it written down for those
who it may be a surprise to. Because I think we tend to see this when we're, I don't know
if it's something we'll go on to talk about, but if you're thinking about putting a panel
together and you're thinking about the people that are making the decisions and having clear
representation of the decision makers, as you and me have both experienced, it's very
difficult to find females in that kind of category to come and talk about that because
they're, as you can see, not that many there.
Yeah, indeed. Yeah. So, you know, one of the reasons we're talking about this is because
we, you know, we value the report and we think it's important, but any report also should
be able to stand up to scrutiny. So I'm going to ask some questions, not to push back on
it, but really just to try and understand the context of the numbers. So one question
that's in my head is, buyer organizations, let's say just traditionally they're a complete
broadcaster, they're a complete production house of one type or another. So that means
they've got people in a much wider variety of, what's the word, parts of the industry
than a typical vendor. So it feels like there's a slight discrepancy with comparing the numbers
because, you know, if you take some, I think HR as an industry, there's a lot more women
than the men. So if you've got a buyer organization, which has got an HR department and it's got
more women there, and I'm not sure if that tracks in the 30% and then at the C level,
then if you've got a, you know, head of HR or whatever it is, then, you know, you might
say, well, they've got as much of a problem within HR. Well, of course, because, you know,
we're looking for a quality and not, you know, not one way or the other. So I wonder whether
that is something which makes it slightly easier, although the numbers are still low,
let's not make any mistakes here. And the buyer organizations, do you think that that
plays into it? Or is that just technically that's true, but it's in the noise?
Yeah, I think it's, I'm not sure it plays into it that much because I suppose if you
were being picky, you could think about the lots of, you know, from small businesses as
well. I see it talks about large vendors to small businesses there. Yeah. You know, that's
just a numbers game really, isn't it? I suppose what you're saying is there might be more
opportunities because of some of the more traditional routes. If you're talking about
the buyers side of things, but I don't think it really matters because I think the key
thing is here that these are very low numbers and that's not cool, is it?
I 100% agree on that. Yeah. Yeah. And it also talks about the size of vendors here. So it
seems to be a little bit, yeah, a little bit better if you're a larger organization.
Yeah. And, you know, that part of that might be dealing with being able to fund programs
that larger organizations tend to have DEI programs as part of them as well. So, you
know, there might be more people pay attention to these types of things. Yes. Opportunity
for that. So as you know, probably a whole number of reasons that that's a bit more accessible
in a larger company. Yeah. So this shows the disparity really, doesn't it? And yeah, I
mean, I'm not sure that we there's as much to be gained in trying to guess why these
numbers are particularly different. But, you know, as you say, it's important to get it
down on paper and hopefully we'll see some differences in the next two or three years.
Yeah. You track those changes. I think that key number there that we all need to really
think about is that look at CEO number. That's really, really low. And obviously that, you
know, you're talking about less roles available at that point. But to only be 12%. Yeah.
Indeed. And I looked, I can't remember what numbers were. I'm sorry, but I did look at
general CEO numbers across industry rather than this is obviously about the media industry.
And it isn't very much different actually from the buyers, if I recall correctly, certainly
for Europe and America. You know, it just, it is about 20 to 30% of female CEOs. So,
you know, not only does that show that it's far too low, but to then not even achieve
that then there's clearly something going on. Yeah. And then I guess this is kind of
what I was talking about with the split. But yeah. And so your point is that, you know,
vendors and buyers both have marketing organizations. But if you were to think that perhaps, I don't
know if this is true, right, but if you say perhaps there are more women in post-production
than a fully fledged broadcaster with the post-production department perhaps as an edge
over a vendor that's ultra niche. And unfortunately that niche is traditionally underserved, but
you know, it is what it is that I guess. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I don't know about necessarily
or example there of post-production, but I think if we're certainly talking about some
of our technical companies that we work with, looking at that kind of engineering figure,
if we're talking about, you know, R&D and things like that, we've definitely seen that
as low numbers. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And you know, this is the, you know, the engineering
world is where I've always been in. And so, you know, I see, well, I'm almost surprised
at 20%, to be honest. And you know, it's just, that's the way it is. And that's why we're
trying to look at ways of changing that. I wish we had a report from a few years ago,
actually, so we could kind of compare it, see if we've actually improved, if that 20%
is an improvement of where we were at. I don't know. I'd just be guessing. Yeah. Yeah. Well,
we've got to start now. The best time to plant the tree was 20 years ago. So, certainly a
conversation I've been having for a long time, but nevermind. So this is, this is interesting
because this goes a little bit further down in terms of talking about the progression
for women. So, you know, it seems that this is, you know, this is one of those aspects
where I think this is shedding light and talking about something which is less obvious. Absolutely
we want diversity. And then I think we've, we've had a history of, as a country, at least,
I seem to remember 10, 20 years ago, it became a big thing to talk about pay gaps, and then
there was legislation brought in. So, you know, people know that there are also differences
between men being promoted and women and the pay. But I guess this is the first time I've
heard of it talked about within the broadcast sphere, and actually tracking how it seems
that people are able to advance within their careers, which of course should be equal as
well.
Yeah, I mean, again, this is something I'm really pleased to see actually written down
because anecdotally, I've heard many stories over many years about that, that route to
promote promotion, and the experiences behind not just the promotion, but the pay gap, the
opportunities that are presented. Yeah, and this is definitely that's very much still
a problem. Yeah, so good to see that written down.
Yeah, indeed. So, yeah, I thought this was an interesting way of looking at it as well,
about, you know, seeing who's managing teams, and looking at the team size and the authority
that they have in terms of the hierarchy. In some ways, you know, the numbers are kind
of high, but there's too much of a disparity. How anybody can have 250 to 1000 people under
them is horrible.
I mean, to be fair, it's not what I wouldn't want. No, thank you.
Yeah, I mean, not as direct reports, surely.
No, no, no. But maybe that's that's, it's not broken down beyond what these kind of
roles are as well. Lots of people, you know, a team leader, is that does that count a team
leader role in in that sense? I suppose it depends on the company, again, doesn't it
and how that's kind of broken down?
Yeah, I guess so. I would imagine this is if you have any line management responsibility,
that was probably what it means. Yeah, I mean, it is also interesting, though, from a, you
know, from a just a general enterprise view, just to see what the breakdown of team numbers
is. And one to 10 is generally nowadays seen as a good size team. I can see reasons to
have larger teams, but there's a lot of stuff that says small is better. So I just think
that's an interesting topic in itself. Yeah. The next heading is about diversity not being
a priority, which is one of those things that kind of splits because I think, well, obviously,
it must be true. There must be plenty of companies for which diversity isn't a priority. But
the fact that rise has become a very important part of our of our industry over the last
I don't know how many years, but let's say seven or eight years, you know, shows that
there is a lot of interest. But perhaps that's just in the larger companies. I don't know
if you've got a view from from having worked with with rise on how that yeah, on the interactions
with the companies at large.
I think it's definitely a recognized area. And there are definitely a lot of companies
who have people employed to to tackle this problem, which is absolutely fantastic. I
think the worrying thing that we've seen, certainly in the last couple of years, you
know, there's a lot of there's been a lot of redundancies of late, as they're not with
partly to do with writer strikes and things like that, and still some kind of COVID issues
coming through the pipeline. We have seen some of those roles then be taken away because,
you know, costing issues. So I think we're in a really kind of pivotal point where people
know it's important. And it is a priority. But like other things, they're thinking, can
I actually have sole person dedicated to this issue? And some companies are making the decision
to not do that, which I think is a massive shame and a hugely missed opportunity. Look,
I think it says it there, doesn't it? Look, when you've got people whose sole purpose
is to wake up every day thinking about how to diversify the talent pool, you find a different
solution to that problem. You know, that it that is absolutely the key thing. On the flip
side of that, we as an industry are now competing with these, particularly with the way that
we're kind of delivering content and things like that, we are competing with big tech
companies. Those big tech companies do have the ability to offer graduates, you know,
seemingly better opportunities at points. So, you know, I think as an industry, it's
something that we need to really be thinking about, despite the fact that we might be having
cash flow issues at points. That doesn't mean we should just get rid of that as a priority.
It just means we need to adapt it and work around it.
So I think there's two aspects there. One is hiring someone specifically, or at least
with 50% of their role to be actively making your company the right shape and the right
culture. The other is really just whether it's part of the decision making process on
hiring, which doesn't necessarily require someone else. And it reminds me a lot of the
environmental sustainability question.
Yeah, that's exactly what I was getting at.
Yeah, it's only now, I think it's just about happening when larger companies with net zero
targets are having to make that an actual thing that becomes a deal breaker that anything
really is happening. Because otherwise you just say, yeah, we do this, we do that. And
at worst, it's 5% of the overall rating of the RFP or whatever it is. So, you know, you
can't say that sustainability is a priority and then not kind of do anything about it
really apart from just encouraging. So, you know, I think that's the question here. And
obviously, it's a harder question to answer. Because things like, you know, quotas and
affirmative action and stuff like that is controversial, because there's no good answer
one way or another. But if you're not going to even think about it, you know, and just
hope that it goes right, then it's not going to go right.
Yeah. And it certainly feels like there's less of that, you know, now. But I think this
last paragraph is really, really key here. Resource required to find diverse talent is
often not prioritized. So, you know, that's where your priority angle is coming in, isn't
it? And there's this perception that trying to find a more diverse pool of people, not
only is it hard work, but that those people might be less qualified. So, it's still seen
as a box ticking kind of exercise, which is what I think is a problem, because it doesn't
have to be like that. Yeah. Interesting comment there, I think.
Yeah, it is. It is difficult. Absolutely. Yeah, it, I know firsthand how difficult it
is not only just to find talent, but to make sure that you're being as diverse as possible
with filling the funnel, because you can be as equal as you want when you're making the
decisions in the hiring room. But, you know, if your funnel is just men, it doesn't really
matter. So, next, this topic really is about, you know, touches on both men versus women,
so to speak, but also other aspects of diversity. So, specifically LGBT plus, as is mentioned
here, and I think it seems about right to me, you know, from my personal viewpoint,
that I don't find that there's, I've never worked in places where it's got a lot of discrimination,
but I know it happens, and therefore, not surprised to see that we're not dead on neutral
in terms of women or strongly disagree. But it's worrying that the LGBT plus is so much
higher, I guess, is the concern. And again, perhaps thinking back, yeah, I'm not so surprised
because I don't think in general as a culture, we really onboarded across the board these
ideas. Whereas, you know, we've been talking about the gender gap for a long time. Do you
think that's partly it? No, just the familiarity with the topic?
Yep, absolutely. I think we're behind and we need to do better, definitely. And again,
you know, seeing this firsthand from the kind of student perspective, you know, it was always
lovely to see a diverse range of students, and that seemed to improve as well as I went
through working particularly at Solent. But then when it comes to actually entering the
industry, again, that's not necessarily an easy process. And it's not talked about as
much as the kind of straightforward gender, you know, widely, we've talked about gender
pay gap and things for a very long time. But I don't think we talk about how welcoming
our industry is. And I do think that the work is being done in this. You know, certainly
at SIMTY, we are absolutely trying to make a big difference in SIMTY UK to be really
welcoming to anybody who wants to come to our meetings. And it should feel like a safe
place to come and explore and learn and gain knowledge. But yeah, bearing in mind the anecdotal
comments I still heard from women about how comfortable they feel in the workplace. And
I think we'll probably go on to talk about it in a minute, but things like trade shows.
This is not a surprise to me. Sadly. But that means more work needed.
Yeah, I was thinking about this, actually, this comment here, most of the time, someone
will say something which in the moment is a throwaway comment. But afterwards, you think
to yourself that was really inappropriate. And that reminds me, I was just thinking about
the way that people explain it's not always technology, but sometimes is. And they say,
well, you know, something like it, it's hardly, I want something that my grand will be able
to use. And, you know, I think that's defensible from the point of view of people who are 18
or 19 years old, do struggle with late technology. But I think there's something about it, where
it's always the grand. And then sometimes it's the mum. And that strikes me as exactly
that type of throwaway comment, which shows that even if the person actually, you know,
we all hold these kind of this baggage of our culture, even if the person is, is, is
totally behind equality, they're still using these, these phrases, and they don't perhaps
even haven't thought about it. Yeah, it just adds to an atmosphere where somebody coming
in, you know, is doesn't feel as welcome. Yeah, I think there's definitely still a lot
of disparity around the language that is used. And often, like it says, it's not, it's not
meant in a harmful way. But it's, it's, it's a, it's a cultural thing. It's, it's, and
I think it's interesting, because obviously, when you're looking at the students, it's
so different in maybe the last even 10 years, the kind of language that we use. And, you
know, I've discussed stories with the students from from when I started, and they're so horrified.
But, but to be honest, that's great, because that means they would never even think of
saying stuff like that. So, you know, progress will be made. The important thing is that
people are willing to listen and and say, oh, you know, own up to their, their comments,
maybe not being appropriate, and learn from that. It's all about the learning, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah. And here's the the trade show mentioned. So yeah, lack of diversity in the
industry with an average of 26% of female speakers at the trade shows. Yeah, across
the 10 largest industry events. I wonder what those are. Not sure I can name all of those
10. But yeah, it's, you know, from my experience, putting on, put on a panel IBC, I was actually
very encouraged that. But when people realize that, no, I was trying to put put on a panel
and I was making it diverse. There was a lot of people really trying very hard to make
sure that they were putting me in contact with people I didn't know. So also, such might
be able to speak. Let's try try her. And, you know, it came, it was almost, it's almost
easier because everybody's trying really hard and say, oh, speak to them, they speak to
someone else and then, you know, made it happen. And that was really, that was very positive.
And so for me, that my takeaway is that there's a lot of interest in making sure that there's
a proper representation. But it does take a bit of work. And it takes thought as well,
which sometimes is is more difficult. Yeah. And I think you've hit the nail on the head
there with that where there's this. So Richard had a mic drop a moment when he accepted his
ally award at the rise awards last week, where he said, you know, action needs to be taken
on this. I challenge everybody, male to not accept being on a panel unless there is diverse
range of people speaking on it. And, and yeah, it seems a bit extreme when we come, we come
in and we say that we're going to be really hardball on this and say, no, I don't accept
it. And a lot of the time that really gets people's backs up because they think that,
you know, we're forcing a solution here. But in some ways, actually, like you said, it
just, it does take a bit of extra work. But that's because a lot of the time people have
go to people that they speak to, we're all guilty of it, you know, so and so, and you
know that they're able to talk about that topic, just hit them up that job done. But
actually, there is probably more people out there who you can talk about that topic. And
from different angles. So let's just kind of create a bit more of a community where
we seek out people from different places to talk about things.
Yeah, indeed. Yes. And, you know, and I found that for for the panel I was putting together,
you know, it was it was actually a lot better for it. And, and I think that, yeah, it takes
a bit of takes a bit of courage to say no to a speaking engagement, because a lot of
people like like to do them. And, you know, so well, why doesn't he say no? But, you know,
I think that's really good. And so I'm pleased that he said that. And I think that the I
think the IBC has been trying hard to push, but they're not mandating it. Yeah, I think
that that's probably it feels to them a little bit bit too much, I guess.
Yeah, it is a big step to mandate something and tell people that this is what you have
to do.
Particularly when there's only 20%. Yeah, that's why I brought that up at the start.
Because that does directly link to it. And you've also got that aspect when you're talking
about kind of speakers, that not everybody is comfortable speaking. And there is, you
know, in one of the previous rise reports, there was a whole section on on imposter syndrome.
And that has played a huge part in whether someone feels confident in speaking about
the thing that they are definitely qualified and you know, the expert in that topic, they
might still not believe that and feel comfortable with talking about it. So I think much more
support around that is probably needed as well.
Yeah. And that's if they even get to go to the trade show, of course. So, you know, you
got to get through the selection process.
Yeah, there was definitely anecdotes I heard about people not more than I've heard before
as well about people not being able to go to IBC this year. And again, that that was
budget cuts.
It is. Yeah.
It did seem to be a lot of women that were, you know, unable to come along, which is,
which is a shame.
Yeah. And that plays into the other issue that we talked about, you know, if you're
going to promote men head of women, then you say, well, we've got to send the senior people,
which logically does have some merit, then you know, you're automatically again, no self
selecting or selecting against taking women. So, yeah, it's a bit of a nightmare, really,
of so many layers, you know, playing and interpolating together.
So yeah, I mean, but the issue is, the more unwelcoming the trade shows are, then the
less likely you want to you are to want to go.
But it's almost self fulfilling, though, isn't it? If we're not seeing the women being able
to attend. And there is definitely something in that, you know, rise did a great thing
the other day where the men, the mentees were allowed to attend DPP leaders briefing, fantastic
opportunity for them to be able to go in here from the mouths of the people, the leaders
making the decisions.
It's going to be in reality, filtered down to them as junior staff. So we need to see
diverse points in career represented at these trade shows as well. That's another aspect
of it.
Yeah. Yeah. And this was this was surprising to me, I would say these these stats. And
again, this is not a surprise that rise launched the program. This name, I can't remember.
Hopefully you can.
Drive to rise.
Yeah, whether you get picked, you get picked up over the taxi, the taxi one and then yeah,
yeah, no kits.
So just explain what that is. Just to be clear.
So the taxi thing at rise was that they can't remember who sponsored it. So apologies. But
it was it was sponsored by industry and it provided taxis to transport women from events
back to wherever they needed to go. So events had transport for people. Absolutely fantastic.
Because I have to say as a woman, that is the time that you do not feel safe. And it's
frustrating because I just still don't think men, no offense, Russell, can understand this
dread when you know you're going to leave any event and you know you're going to have
to walk through wherever it is on your own, potentially in the dark. And if you're not
going to walk on your own, you've got kind of, you know, generally got to gather a group
of drunk people to be like, right, got to leave now. It's just it's an added stress
that is just really annoying. So I was so happy to see that initiative. IBC this year.
Really, really amazing.
That's really good. You know, but I feel like I feel most frustrated about these numbers
like one and six have been harassed, one and seven don't feel safe. And even if we even
if we eliminate the kind of the evening stuff and only at the trade show, if it's still
one in seven, I mean, it just sounds it sounds way too many. And so but they these all seem
almost as if they're they should be more achievable and so quicker to change. Because we know
that when we're talking about the demographics in the industry, we know that that's inextricably
linked to education. And that starts at the age of however, however, we want to count
it at four or five. You know, but this is just people being adults and perhaps failing
to do so, you know, it just it feels it feels as if we can, we should be able to change
these numbers quicker than we can change the overall percentages of the quality and diversity.
But perhaps I'm perhaps I'm being naive there.
No, ever the optimist Russell, I like that. But these are doing it right.
No, but there are, you know, there are things this being harassed, unacceptable, we should
not be having one in six people still being harassed.
Yeah, I am.
It's something that companies, companies are against harassment in general, at the moment.
So the worst thing is, you know, I'm sure that I'm sure that most companies would take
some sort of action. But obviously, there will be the other examples where, you know,
they're not even so the company then becomes complicit, which is, which is awful. But,
but you know, it's the problem of even being able to explain what's what's happened and
whether you think the harassment was enough, you know, you can feel harassed. But it's
going to be on that threshold, isn't it?
Yeah. And I do think there's a bit strong case for education around what is harassment,
which I, you know, I don't think we should be having to do because I feel like it is
common sense. But certainly the cases, and unfortunately, I have heard of several and
in recent times, of women who have been harassed in the workplace. These, these are, it seems
to always be around people going, Oh, well, I didn't really think that that was a problem.
I thought it was okay to be like that, you know. So clearly, there's an issue there around
what we know what people think is okay. So I think that should be fairly, that should
just be dealt with.
I like that.
No, that's that. No, I think we we do agree. And, you know, but this is this, this comes
to this point, really, you know, people care, we don't know what to do. And, you know, you
can feel a little bit isolated. And so well, yeah, I'm sitting here, I'd like to hire
some, you know, diverse, proud, I'd like to have a diverse team, I agree with all of this.
And then you either think, right, well, this is perhaps not in line with what I'm actually
being asked to do is getting in the way of me achieving, you know, my, my productivity
at work, you know, my goals, whatever the KPIs are. I guess that's part of part of the
problem.
Well, yeah, well, that goes back to that point that I made originally about, you know, if
you if you aren't a company that's able to have someone in place to help with this, and
it is all on you, and you're not quite sure how to implement it, then yeah, I can see
how it does become an issue.
Implementing these things.
So when I read through this first time, I thought, well, what's nice about this report
is it's not just doom and gloom and complaining. First of all, it doesn't complain, it just
states the facts. But, you know, it isn't, you know, just a bad news read. You know,
this is, I mean, these are good numbers, right?
Yeah.
To think that, you know, most pretty much most people agree with having the diversity
would be a good idea. They in one way or another think it's relevant. You know, these, this
is encouraging to feel that we've got some sort of
Will.
Yeah, there's a body, there's a consensus. You know, but then, you know, how do we focus
that then that's what I guess that's been one of the best thing about the rise in general,
at least it's been the first thing that you can say, well, at least I can focus my energy
and my my opinions towards rise and help promote that even if it's an indirect.
Benefit.
Yeah, and and things like putting your staff through through the mentorship program, for
example, or supporting rise and being part of, you know, strive to rise and things like
that. There's plenty of opportunity to be to be involved for those who consider themselves
not sure what to do.
Yeah.
But you know,
and these numbers are great. So I'm not like, detracting from that. As the rest of the
report shows, there is a lot of work to do. So we definitely need to be more than just
kind of dipping our toes in.
Yeah, I wouldn't want to be trying. I wouldn't want to be trying to do all of that and only
having 20% of people who think it's a good idea.
Yeah.
I like this question here. What is diverse enough? And that really comes down to the
that just reinforces the problem that this is not a, you know, yes or no situation. This
is
this will always be argued over, you know, whether you should be mimicking the population
percentages or this and the other.
But you know, we're not even close enough to to to decide if we've gone too far or not
at this point.
Well, I mean, I think there's some fundamental issues. A lot of it comes through education.
That's my background. So I probably would say that. But I think, you know, the filtering
into the industry is a problem. But also, you know, it's fundamentally it's about it
should be welcoming. Anybody who wants to come and join should be able to come and join.
But the flip side of that is, well, they want to come and join if they can't see themselves
there. So, yeah.
Yeah. And then until very easy. The illusion of diversity is a great title, I think, which
just talks about, well, if you've achieved something as a company, which is above perhaps
most companies, then you know, you start to feel perhaps, oh, yeah, we're doing a pretty
good job. Or if you're only looking at diversity of male, female, then you know, you're forgetting
or not even starting to think about the LGBTQ plus populations and all the other types of
diversity of age and ethnicity.
Kind of an accident. I think it's most of this, I think, is unintentional, but it's
kind of this accidental. Yeah. You accidentally greenwash your company. Oh, yeah. We recycle
a lot of paper. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, as I said, the report shows that there is
still a long way to go here. And it's nice that the will is there. I mean, 85% is a lot
different to say 85% of people thinking that companies diverse and yet overall 20% of actual,
you know, so there must be there must have to perhaps as a couple of outliers that were
extremely, you know, are actually diverse. I don't know, but it seems unlikely, isn't
it? Yeah. Yeah. And then this is the other aspect of the positivity. Although we haven't
got to being diverse. You know, it shows that actually more diverse companies do better
in terms of revenue per employee. And, you know, I assume this is true. It's one of these
things that sounds true and sounds obvious, but, you know, sometimes you find out that
correlation is there, but the causation isn't. But, you know, if you have a more diverse
company, then people are happier to be around. And generally, if you've got someone who's
been there for three to 10 years, they're going to be more useful than someone who's
only been there for one or two years. So if you're churning, then that's not going to
be a good thing. Yeah, I think there's quite a few aspects that are going to kind of lead
into this reporting higher revenue, aren't they? Like you say, it's going to be people
hanging around, people being happy. But there's also going to be that different angles, different
points of views, different ways of thinking that are going to lead directly into different
delivery, which often is going to give you that higher revenue as well. So yeah, I think
there's many aspects which, again, just shows, you know, the reason why it's important. So
to do it.
Absolutely. Yeah. So I think, you know, we've covered this in some ways already. It's like
the lack of progress is there. And now we've written it down. And the, you know, the important
thing is that I think whenever you can write a business case behind something, then it's
a lot easier to convince a board to go for it. And I'm not saying that cynically, you
know, businesses are there to make money. So if we can use information like this to
help point out that there is a benefit to having more diversity, then although it's
a longer term look, you'd hope that it would be easier to make the case internally. And
of course, then if you do succeed, then pretty much you should, you should succeed in realizing
some of these, these benefits. So I think that that kind of brings us to the end. So
it was interesting to see the methodology. There was equality in terms of male versus
female respondents across the world. And it just goes into some of the, yeah, some of
the things we won't go over that now. This, I'll put in the description how to get hold
of this report from, from rise, you can, you can download this. So no, from your perspective,
then Polly, just to just finish off, you see this as the beginning of tracking the next
two, three, four years of success. Yeah, I'd love, I, you know, I love this report. I'd
love to see it again, to see what progress we can make, see these changes in numbers.
I think part of achieving those changes in numbers is actually thinking about staff as
people. So, you know, that I really feel like there needs to be more investment in our people.
And just to go back to some of those points, you know, you're talking about, if we were
to look at neurodiversity, for example, you know, I was recently went through an assessment
for ADHD myself and had ADHD confirmed. And the part of that process, because I did it
through work, was actually looking specifically at my strengths. And it was an amazing process
to go through, because suddenly all the things that I had struggled with made sense, really
struggle with exams, have really bad short term memory, totally make sense, really excellent
ideas, because that's how my brain works. So I think kind of thinking about the people
that we're employing and playing to everybody's strengths, is going to be a really, really
key part of getting people into our industry, and then keeping them there. Because don't
forget a lot of these numbers when we see drop offs, we're talking about people getting
to the C level. If people have left before they've had that opportunity to have a full
career, that's another reason why they're not going to get to that point. So I'm rambling
now.
But
I think what we don't want is people I mean, the worst, yeah, my simplistic mind, I think,
well, if somebody doesn't want to be in a company, then they'll go to another company.
But in my mind, that just means they go to another broadcaster or vendor. Obviously,
no, they'll go to an industry which is more welcoming and aligned.
Literally, whilst we've been having this conversation, I can see a message from my phone from someone
going, I thought about what you said about maybe not leaving the industry. And I'm now
thinking about some other ways that maybe I can stay. So these conversations, they're
happening all the time. So we need to pay more attention to whether our staff want to
not just stay at our company, they want to stay in this industry.
Yeah, 100% 100%. Thank you, Polly. I really enjoyed talking about this with you and look
forward to conversations in the future. Just last thing to say is that I'm hoping that
you will take pity on this new, new broadcast focus channel and give it a subscribe because
that's the only way we're going to get any of this talked about and raised through this
forum. It's easy, it's free to do. So do me a favor and that'd be fantastic. Thank you
again, Polly. I look forward to seeing you again.