1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:10,120 Hello and thank you for joining me. My name is Russell Trafford-Jones and this is Broadcast 2 00:00:10,120 --> 00:00:16,840 Focus where we take a look at the broadcast industry, we look at the people and the technology 3 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:23,760 behind it. And today I'm very, very pleased to introduce Polly Hickling. How are you doing, 4 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:24,760 Polly? 5 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:25,760 Okay, thank you. 6 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,960 Thanks for joining me. Now you're with Eviden at the moment, but you've done a lot of work 7 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:38,640 with RISE, which is our topic today. For people who don't know, how would you describe RISE? 8 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:46,320 So RISE has been around for a number of years now. I first got involved in RISE probably 9 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:55,880 about 2018. So my involvement was from when I worked at Solent. So we had graduates who 10 00:00:55,880 --> 00:01:01,800 would leave and then they would join the mentoring program, absolutely amazing mentoring program. 11 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:06,960 And I can safely say, definitely kept some of my graduates in the industry. 12 00:01:06,960 --> 00:01:13,600 What's the role of that mentoring and of RISE in general? 13 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:21,600 So mentors come from across the industry, men and women mentors, and they support generally 14 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:29,600 kind of more junior people entering the industry, finding their way, finding their feet in their, 15 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:34,720 maybe their first role or maybe, you know, looking to move into different roles. Yeah, 16 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:40,000 we've had lots of Solent graduates go through that mentoring scheme and had great successes 17 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:41,760 after doing that as well. 18 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:48,640 That's great. So yeah, and I think it's definitely been very positive to have an advocacy group 19 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:56,520 for gender equality. And whilst you're not speaking for RISE today, we both care. And 20 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:02,520 they came up with a really interesting survey that we just really wanted to have a look 21 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:07,520 through and talk about because, you know, it matters. It's also interesting. And, you 22 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:13,080 know, there's some important new points that have been brought up in that. So you would 23 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:18,720 give us a little bit of an intro on what this business side of diversity is. 24 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:23,480 Well, firstly, I just wanted to say, I think it's really, really important that we have 25 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:30,400 reports like this. So, like, you know, well done to RISE and to Coretta for putting this 26 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:36,280 together because without having this kind of data, which clearly states the state that 27 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:41,480 we're in, you know, both in diversity, but, you know, in terms of, you know, getting people 28 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:45,880 into the industry and all these kind of things that we're all talking about, without having 29 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:51,520 that data, we don't really know if what we think is happening is actually happening. 30 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,600 So I was really, really pleased to see this report come out and actually give us some 31 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:59,880 proper data and information from the focus groups. But it's all around kind of where 32 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:08,520 we're at with DEI in the media technology space, you know, and discusses, you know, 33 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,840 where we're at with comparison to where we think we're at and where we think we should 34 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:19,520 be at. So it really nicely frames that with a lot of contribution from industry to there. 35 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:23,360 So, yeah, really, really pleased to see this report come out. 36 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:27,840 So we're going to have a look through, you know, not everyone's going to read reports 37 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:33,400 and that's totally okay. So I think this is just another way of accessing that information. 38 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:40,280 And, you know, we all need to be, we all need to, I think, really take a bit of care and 39 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:45,640 pay some attention to how the industry is and not just, you know, getting shows on air. 40 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:51,840 It needs to be a little bit more than that. So, yeah, it's put together between RISE and 41 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:58,480 Coretta research. And so I think one of the important things is really just to cover what 42 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:05,480 DEI is. This is the first time that things have been explicitly about diversity in the 43 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:11,600 wider dimension rather than just gender diversity. You're able to say something a bit more about 44 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:12,600 DEI? 45 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:17,400 Yeah, but, you know, what you've just said there, I think that's really important because 46 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:22,360 we've spent a long time talking about gender diversity, obviously super important. And 47 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:26,440 as the report will go on to show and we'll discuss, there is lots around that. But there 48 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:34,040 are other aspects of inclusivity that certainly coming from the educational background, coming 49 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:38,800 through seeing the students come through, you know, diversity affects a whole range 50 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:45,780 of different aspects of the human beings. So, yeah, it's nice to see kind of touches 51 00:04:45,780 --> 00:04:52,620 on as it says there, you know, ethnicities, abilities, genders, cultures and life experiences 52 00:04:52,620 --> 00:05:03,000 and the importance of having that represented in the workplace and contributions from diverse. 53 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:09,360 I was talking to Rich Walsh, I think it was last year for an article and he started talking 54 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:13,720 about neurodiversity within the workplace, which is also the first time I'd really heard 55 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:20,280 that being addressed. And so I guess, you know, the different abilities of people in 56 00:05:20,280 --> 00:05:26,800 terms of how they are, how they are in terms of the mental, it's not really about mental 57 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:32,760 health, it's just different characteristics, isn't it really? There's no normal. 58 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:34,800 Different ways that people's brains work. 59 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:41,760 Yeah. And, you know, he's had a long history in terms of putting companies together, which 60 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:46,940 have a lot of software developers and he says, you know, I need people of all different ways 61 00:05:46,940 --> 00:05:53,320 of looking at life and problems to get the results that his successful companies have 62 00:05:53,320 --> 00:06:03,440 done. So this starts with, I mean, the first real heading here is 12% of media technology 63 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:10,520 vendors, vendor CEOs are women. So this is the first time that it kind of pits vendors 64 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:17,080 versus buyer organizations, which I guess are loosely speaking broadcasters, but obviously 65 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:24,020 it could be anyone who I think buyers can be as much as rights holders and streaming 66 00:06:24,020 --> 00:06:36,520 only companies, perhaps some other companies that come under buyer organizations. And so 67 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:42,200 this bit here really, so women represent 12% of media technology vendor CEOs and 20% of 68 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:52,080 engineers in buyer organizations, it's higher, so it's 22% and 24% of engineers. Is that 69 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:56,440 a surprise do you think, Polly? 70 00:06:56,440 --> 00:07:03,800 Well, it's not a surprise because this is something that we have been talking about 71 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:10,960 for a while. We've spent quite a while talking about how many women are there in the C-suite. 72 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:16,120 So it kind of wasn't a surprise, but it's really nice to see it written down for those 73 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:24,160 who it may be a surprise to. Because I think we tend to see this when we're, I don't know 74 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,960 if it's something we'll go on to talk about, but if you're thinking about putting a panel 75 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:31,760 together and you're thinking about the people that are making the decisions and having clear 76 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:36,920 representation of the decision makers, as you and me have both experienced, it's very 77 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:43,520 difficult to find females in that kind of category to come and talk about that because 78 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:48,200 they're, as you can see, not that many there. 79 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:53,320 Yeah, indeed. Yeah. So, you know, one of the reasons we're talking about this is because 80 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:59,000 we, you know, we value the report and we think it's important, but any report also should 81 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:03,000 be able to stand up to scrutiny. So I'm going to ask some questions, not to push back on 82 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:09,440 it, but really just to try and understand the context of the numbers. So one question 83 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:20,120 that's in my head is, buyer organizations, let's say just traditionally they're a complete 84 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:27,120 broadcaster, they're a complete production house of one type or another. So that means 85 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:35,400 they've got people in a much wider variety of, what's the word, parts of the industry 86 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:44,160 than a typical vendor. So it feels like there's a slight discrepancy with comparing the numbers 87 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:52,960 because, you know, if you take some, I think HR as an industry, there's a lot more women 88 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:57,820 than the men. So if you've got a buyer organization, which has got an HR department and it's got 89 00:08:57,820 --> 00:09:04,480 more women there, and I'm not sure if that tracks in the 30% and then at the C level, 90 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:10,520 then if you've got a, you know, head of HR or whatever it is, then, you know, you might 91 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:14,280 say, well, they've got as much of a problem within HR. Well, of course, because, you know, 92 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:19,680 we're looking for a quality and not, you know, not one way or the other. So I wonder whether 93 00:09:19,680 --> 00:09:23,520 that is something which makes it slightly easier, although the numbers are still low, 94 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:27,720 let's not make any mistakes here. And the buyer organizations, do you think that that 95 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:33,720 plays into it? Or is that just technically that's true, but it's in the noise? 96 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:40,000 Yeah, I think it's, I'm not sure it plays into it that much because I suppose if you 97 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:45,320 were being picky, you could think about the lots of, you know, from small businesses as 98 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:52,120 well. I see it talks about large vendors to small businesses there. Yeah. You know, that's 99 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,600 just a numbers game really, isn't it? I suppose what you're saying is there might be more 100 00:09:55,600 --> 00:10:01,000 opportunities because of some of the more traditional routes. If you're talking about 101 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:06,720 the buyers side of things, but I don't think it really matters because I think the key 102 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:11,080 thing is here that these are very low numbers and that's not cool, is it? 103 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:21,280 I 100% agree on that. Yeah. Yeah. And it also talks about the size of vendors here. So it 104 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:27,680 seems to be a little bit, yeah, a little bit better if you're a larger organization. 105 00:10:27,680 --> 00:10:34,920 Yeah. And, you know, that part of that might be dealing with being able to fund programs 106 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:39,400 that larger organizations tend to have DEI programs as part of them as well. So, you 107 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:44,040 know, there might be more people pay attention to these types of things. Yes. Opportunity 108 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:48,040 for that. So as you know, probably a whole number of reasons that that's a bit more accessible 109 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:54,840 in a larger company. Yeah. So this shows the disparity really, doesn't it? And yeah, I 110 00:10:54,840 --> 00:11:00,040 mean, I'm not sure that we there's as much to be gained in trying to guess why these 111 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:06,120 numbers are particularly different. But, you know, as you say, it's important to get it 112 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:11,880 down on paper and hopefully we'll see some differences in the next two or three years. 113 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:19,120 Yeah. You track those changes. I think that key number there that we all need to really 114 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:25,720 think about is that look at CEO number. That's really, really low. And obviously that, you 115 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:34,720 know, you're talking about less roles available at that point. But to only be 12%. Yeah. 116 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:41,800 Indeed. And I looked, I can't remember what numbers were. I'm sorry, but I did look at 117 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:49,760 general CEO numbers across industry rather than this is obviously about the media industry. 118 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,520 And it isn't very much different actually from the buyers, if I recall correctly, certainly 119 00:11:53,520 --> 00:12:06,200 for Europe and America. You know, it just, it is about 20 to 30% of female CEOs. So, 120 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:14,040 you know, not only does that show that it's far too low, but to then not even achieve 121 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:21,840 that then there's clearly something going on. Yeah. And then I guess this is kind of 122 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:28,120 what I was talking about with the split. But yeah. And so your point is that, you know, 123 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:32,880 vendors and buyers both have marketing organizations. But if you were to think that perhaps, I don't 124 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:39,800 know if this is true, right, but if you say perhaps there are more women in post-production 125 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:44,280 than a fully fledged broadcaster with the post-production department perhaps as an edge 126 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:51,360 over a vendor that's ultra niche. And unfortunately that niche is traditionally underserved, but 127 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:57,360 you know, it is what it is that I guess. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I don't know about necessarily 128 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,800 or example there of post-production, but I think if we're certainly talking about some 129 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:09,240 of our technical companies that we work with, looking at that kind of engineering figure, 130 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:14,080 if we're talking about, you know, R&D and things like that, we've definitely seen that 131 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:20,760 as low numbers. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And you know, this is the, you know, the engineering 132 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:25,960 world is where I've always been in. And so, you know, I see, well, I'm almost surprised 133 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:33,680 at 20%, to be honest. And you know, it's just, that's the way it is. And that's why we're 134 00:13:33,680 --> 00:13:39,360 trying to look at ways of changing that. I wish we had a report from a few years ago, 135 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:43,200 actually, so we could kind of compare it, see if we've actually improved, if that 20% 136 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:50,080 is an improvement of where we were at. I don't know. I'd just be guessing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, 137 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:54,760 we've got to start now. The best time to plant the tree was 20 years ago. So, certainly a 138 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:59,880 conversation I've been having for a long time, but nevermind. So this is, this is interesting 139 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:05,360 because this goes a little bit further down in terms of talking about the progression 140 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:14,120 for women. So, you know, it seems that this is, you know, this is one of those aspects 141 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:19,800 where I think this is shedding light and talking about something which is less obvious. Absolutely 142 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:27,440 we want diversity. And then I think we've, we've had a history of, as a country, at least, 143 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:32,680 I seem to remember 10, 20 years ago, it became a big thing to talk about pay gaps, and then 144 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:37,920 there was legislation brought in. So, you know, people know that there are also differences 145 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:43,000 between men being promoted and women and the pay. But I guess this is the first time I've 146 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:47,880 heard of it talked about within the broadcast sphere, and actually tracking how it seems 147 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,920 that people are able to advance within their careers, which of course should be equal as 148 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:52,920 well. 149 00:14:52,920 --> 00:15:00,120 Yeah, I mean, again, this is something I'm really pleased to see actually written down 150 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:09,720 because anecdotally, I've heard many stories over many years about that, that route to 151 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:18,120 promote promotion, and the experiences behind not just the promotion, but the pay gap, the 152 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:24,040 opportunities that are presented. Yeah, and this is definitely that's very much still 153 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:29,640 a problem. Yeah, so good to see that written down. 154 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:35,720 Yeah, indeed. So, yeah, I thought this was an interesting way of looking at it as well, 155 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:42,080 about, you know, seeing who's managing teams, and looking at the team size and the authority 156 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:49,000 that they have in terms of the hierarchy. In some ways, you know, the numbers are kind 157 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:56,400 of high, but there's too much of a disparity. How anybody can have 250 to 1000 people under 158 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:57,400 them is horrible. 159 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:02,920 I mean, to be fair, it's not what I wouldn't want. No, thank you. 160 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:06,200 Yeah, I mean, not as direct reports, surely. 161 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:13,480 No, no, no. But maybe that's that's, it's not broken down beyond what these kind of 162 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:18,120 roles are as well. Lots of people, you know, a team leader, is that does that count a team 163 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:23,280 leader role in in that sense? I suppose it depends on the company, again, doesn't it 164 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:24,680 and how that's kind of broken down? 165 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:31,400 Yeah, I guess so. I would imagine this is if you have any line management responsibility, 166 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:36,960 that was probably what it means. Yeah, I mean, it is also interesting, though, from a, you 167 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:44,400 know, from a just a general enterprise view, just to see what the breakdown of team numbers 168 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:51,120 is. And one to 10 is generally nowadays seen as a good size team. I can see reasons to 169 00:16:51,120 --> 00:17:01,280 have larger teams, but there's a lot of stuff that says small is better. So I just think 170 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:09,840 that's an interesting topic in itself. Yeah. The next heading is about diversity not being 171 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:18,480 a priority, which is one of those things that kind of splits because I think, well, obviously, 172 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:23,920 it must be true. There must be plenty of companies for which diversity isn't a priority. But 173 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:29,160 the fact that rise has become a very important part of our of our industry over the last 174 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:34,120 I don't know how many years, but let's say seven or eight years, you know, shows that 175 00:17:34,120 --> 00:17:41,160 there is a lot of interest. But perhaps that's just in the larger companies. I don't know 176 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:49,440 if you've got a view from from having worked with with rise on how that yeah, on the interactions 177 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,200 with the companies at large. 178 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:59,240 I think it's definitely a recognized area. And there are definitely a lot of companies 179 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:05,960 who have people employed to to tackle this problem, which is absolutely fantastic. I 180 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,720 think the worrying thing that we've seen, certainly in the last couple of years, you 181 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:19,280 know, there's a lot of there's been a lot of redundancies of late, as they're not with 182 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:24,920 partly to do with writer strikes and things like that, and still some kind of COVID issues 183 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:31,800 coming through the pipeline. We have seen some of those roles then be taken away because, 184 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:38,600 you know, costing issues. So I think we're in a really kind of pivotal point where people 185 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:45,080 know it's important. And it is a priority. But like other things, they're thinking, can 186 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:52,000 I actually have sole person dedicated to this issue? And some companies are making the decision 187 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:58,800 to not do that, which I think is a massive shame and a hugely missed opportunity. Look, 188 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,080 I think it says it there, doesn't it? Look, when you've got people whose sole purpose 189 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:06,640 is to wake up every day thinking about how to diversify the talent pool, you find a different 190 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:14,440 solution to that problem. You know, that it that is absolutely the key thing. On the flip 191 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:22,040 side of that, we as an industry are now competing with these, particularly with the way that 192 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,800 we're kind of delivering content and things like that, we are competing with big tech 193 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:32,600 companies. Those big tech companies do have the ability to offer graduates, you know, 194 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:38,280 seemingly better opportunities at points. So, you know, I think as an industry, it's 195 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:43,480 something that we need to really be thinking about, despite the fact that we might be having 196 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:51,000 cash flow issues at points. That doesn't mean we should just get rid of that as a priority. 197 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,520 It just means we need to adapt it and work around it. 198 00:19:53,520 --> 00:20:00,360 So I think there's two aspects there. One is hiring someone specifically, or at least 199 00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:10,840 with 50% of their role to be actively making your company the right shape and the right 200 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:17,360 culture. The other is really just whether it's part of the decision making process on 201 00:20:17,360 --> 00:20:23,480 hiring, which doesn't necessarily require someone else. And it reminds me a lot of the 202 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:25,720 environmental sustainability question. 203 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,480 Yeah, that's exactly what I was getting at. 204 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:34,280 Yeah, it's only now, I think it's just about happening when larger companies with net zero 205 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:43,680 targets are having to make that an actual thing that becomes a deal breaker that anything 206 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:47,600 really is happening. Because otherwise you just say, yeah, we do this, we do that. And 207 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:54,800 at worst, it's 5% of the overall rating of the RFP or whatever it is. So, you know, you 208 00:20:54,800 --> 00:21:00,000 can't say that sustainability is a priority and then not kind of do anything about it 209 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:05,520 really apart from just encouraging. So, you know, I think that's the question here. And 210 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:13,280 obviously, it's a harder question to answer. Because things like, you know, quotas and 211 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:18,840 affirmative action and stuff like that is controversial, because there's no good answer 212 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:25,160 one way or another. But if you're not going to even think about it, you know, and just 213 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:30,240 hope that it goes right, then it's not going to go right. 214 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:37,240 Yeah. And it certainly feels like there's less of that, you know, now. But I think this 215 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:43,600 last paragraph is really, really key here. Resource required to find diverse talent is 216 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:47,840 often not prioritized. So, you know, that's where your priority angle is coming in, isn't 217 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:54,800 it? And there's this perception that trying to find a more diverse pool of people, not 218 00:21:54,800 --> 00:22:02,880 only is it hard work, but that those people might be less qualified. So, it's still seen 219 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:07,760 as a box ticking kind of exercise, which is what I think is a problem, because it doesn't 220 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:16,080 have to be like that. Yeah. Interesting comment there, I think. 221 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:23,280 Yeah, it is. It is difficult. Absolutely. Yeah, it, I know firsthand how difficult it 222 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:28,840 is not only just to find talent, but to make sure that you're being as diverse as possible 223 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:34,080 with filling the funnel, because you can be as equal as you want when you're making the 224 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:41,880 decisions in the hiring room. But, you know, if your funnel is just men, it doesn't really 225 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:54,880 matter. So, next, this topic really is about, you know, touches on both men versus women, 226 00:22:54,880 --> 00:23:04,240 so to speak, but also other aspects of diversity. So, specifically LGBT plus, as is mentioned 227 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:12,920 here, and I think it seems about right to me, you know, from my personal viewpoint, 228 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:19,680 that I don't find that there's, I've never worked in places where it's got a lot of discrimination, 229 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:24,840 but I know it happens, and therefore, not surprised to see that we're not dead on neutral 230 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:33,880 in terms of women or strongly disagree. But it's worrying that the LGBT plus is so much 231 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:40,680 higher, I guess, is the concern. And again, perhaps thinking back, yeah, I'm not so surprised 232 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:49,720 because I don't think in general as a culture, we really onboarded across the board these 233 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:57,960 ideas. Whereas, you know, we've been talking about the gender gap for a long time. Do you 234 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:02,200 think that's partly it? No, just the familiarity with the topic? 235 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:10,760 Yep, absolutely. I think we're behind and we need to do better, definitely. And again, 236 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:18,880 you know, seeing this firsthand from the kind of student perspective, you know, it was always 237 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:27,080 lovely to see a diverse range of students, and that seemed to improve as well as I went 238 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:36,440 through working particularly at Solent. But then when it comes to actually entering the 239 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:46,880 industry, again, that's not necessarily an easy process. And it's not talked about as 240 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:53,040 much as the kind of straightforward gender, you know, widely, we've talked about gender 241 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:59,040 pay gap and things for a very long time. But I don't think we talk about how welcoming 242 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:04,160 our industry is. And I do think that the work is being done in this. You know, certainly 243 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:09,720 at SIMTY, we are absolutely trying to make a big difference in SIMTY UK to be really 244 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:15,360 welcoming to anybody who wants to come to our meetings. And it should feel like a safe 245 00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:22,840 place to come and explore and learn and gain knowledge. But yeah, bearing in mind the anecdotal 246 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:28,600 comments I still heard from women about how comfortable they feel in the workplace. And 247 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:33,480 I think we'll probably go on to talk about it in a minute, but things like trade shows. 248 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:39,280 This is not a surprise to me. Sadly. But that means more work needed. 249 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:44,080 Yeah, I was thinking about this, actually, this comment here, most of the time, someone 250 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,680 will say something which in the moment is a throwaway comment. But afterwards, you think 251 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:54,360 to yourself that was really inappropriate. And that reminds me, I was just thinking about 252 00:25:54,360 --> 00:26:01,600 the way that people explain it's not always technology, but sometimes is. And they say, 253 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:06,240 well, you know, something like it, it's hardly, I want something that my grand will be able 254 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:13,840 to use. And, you know, I think that's defensible from the point of view of people who are 18 255 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:20,000 or 19 years old, do struggle with late technology. But I think there's something about it, where 256 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:26,600 it's always the grand. And then sometimes it's the mum. And that strikes me as exactly 257 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:32,120 that type of throwaway comment, which shows that even if the person actually, you know, 258 00:26:32,120 --> 00:26:36,920 we all hold these kind of this baggage of our culture, even if the person is, is, is 259 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:43,040 totally behind equality, they're still using these, these phrases, and they don't perhaps 260 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:49,000 even haven't thought about it. Yeah, it just adds to an atmosphere where somebody coming 261 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:56,120 in, you know, is doesn't feel as welcome. Yeah, I think there's definitely still a lot 262 00:26:56,120 --> 00:27:01,200 of disparity around the language that is used. And often, like it says, it's not, it's not 263 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:09,360 meant in a harmful way. But it's, it's, it's a, it's a cultural thing. It's, it's, and 264 00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:13,280 I think it's interesting, because obviously, when you're looking at the students, it's 265 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:20,040 so different in maybe the last even 10 years, the kind of language that we use. And, you 266 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:26,960 know, I've discussed stories with the students from from when I started, and they're so horrified. 267 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:32,040 But, but to be honest, that's great, because that means they would never even think of 268 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:38,960 saying stuff like that. So, you know, progress will be made. The important thing is that 269 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:47,240 people are willing to listen and and say, oh, you know, own up to their, their comments, 270 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:52,040 maybe not being appropriate, and learn from that. It's all about the learning, isn't it? 271 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:59,800 Yeah, yeah. And here's the the trade show mentioned. So yeah, lack of diversity in the 272 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:06,320 industry with an average of 26% of female speakers at the trade shows. Yeah, across 273 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:12,280 the 10 largest industry events. I wonder what those are. Not sure I can name all of those 274 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:21,440 10. But yeah, it's, you know, from my experience, putting on, put on a panel IBC, I was actually 275 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:30,720 very encouraged that. But when people realize that, no, I was trying to put put on a panel 276 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:37,240 and I was making it diverse. There was a lot of people really trying very hard to make 277 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:42,440 sure that they were putting me in contact with people I didn't know. So also, such might 278 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:49,760 be able to speak. Let's try try her. And, you know, it came, it was almost, it's almost 279 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:54,240 easier because everybody's trying really hard and say, oh, speak to them, they speak to 280 00:28:54,240 --> 00:29:01,280 someone else and then, you know, made it happen. And that was really, that was very positive. 281 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:09,200 And so for me, that my takeaway is that there's a lot of interest in making sure that there's 282 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:16,440 a proper representation. But it does take a bit of work. And it takes thought as well, 283 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:22,440 which sometimes is is more difficult. Yeah. And I think you've hit the nail on the head 284 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:29,880 there with that where there's this. So Richard had a mic drop a moment when he accepted his 285 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:39,640 ally award at the rise awards last week, where he said, you know, action needs to be taken 286 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:47,520 on this. I challenge everybody, male to not accept being on a panel unless there is diverse 287 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:53,080 range of people speaking on it. And, and yeah, it seems a bit extreme when we come, we come 288 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,920 in and we say that we're going to be really hardball on this and say, no, I don't accept 289 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:03,560 it. And a lot of the time that really gets people's backs up because they think that, 290 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:10,800 you know, we're forcing a solution here. But in some ways, actually, like you said, it 291 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:19,120 just, it does take a bit of extra work. But that's because a lot of the time people have 292 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:23,440 go to people that they speak to, we're all guilty of it, you know, so and so, and you 293 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:28,080 know that they're able to talk about that topic, just hit them up that job done. But 294 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:33,200 actually, there is probably more people out there who you can talk about that topic. And 295 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:38,600 from different angles. So let's just kind of create a bit more of a community where 296 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:43,040 we seek out people from different places to talk about things. 297 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:48,680 Yeah, indeed. Yes. And, you know, and I found that for for the panel I was putting together, 298 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:56,040 you know, it was it was actually a lot better for it. And, and I think that, yeah, it takes 299 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,520 a bit of takes a bit of courage to say no to a speaking engagement, because a lot of 300 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:07,680 people like like to do them. And, you know, so well, why doesn't he say no? But, you know, 301 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:17,360 I think that's really good. And so I'm pleased that he said that. And I think that the I 302 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:23,800 think the IBC has been trying hard to push, but they're not mandating it. Yeah, I think 303 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:28,320 that that's probably it feels to them a little bit bit too much, I guess. 304 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,960 Yeah, it is a big step to mandate something and tell people that this is what you have 305 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:32,960 to do. 306 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:41,440 Particularly when there's only 20%. Yeah, that's why I brought that up at the start. 307 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:46,920 Because that does directly link to it. And you've also got that aspect when you're talking 308 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:52,080 about kind of speakers, that not everybody is comfortable speaking. And there is, you 309 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:58,000 know, in one of the previous rise reports, there was a whole section on on imposter syndrome. 310 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:03,480 And that has played a huge part in whether someone feels confident in speaking about 311 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:09,240 the thing that they are definitely qualified and you know, the expert in that topic, they 312 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,760 might still not believe that and feel comfortable with talking about it. So I think much more 313 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,160 support around that is probably needed as well. 314 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:20,080 Yeah. And that's if they even get to go to the trade show, of course. So, you know, you 315 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,600 got to get through the selection process. 316 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:29,160 Yeah, there was definitely anecdotes I heard about people not more than I've heard before 317 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:33,240 as well about people not being able to go to IBC this year. And again, that that was 318 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:34,240 budget cuts. 319 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:35,240 It is. Yeah. 320 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:42,160 It did seem to be a lot of women that were, you know, unable to come along, which is, 321 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:43,440 which is a shame. 322 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,560 Yeah. And that plays into the other issue that we talked about, you know, if you're 323 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:51,960 going to promote men head of women, then you say, well, we've got to send the senior people, 324 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:57,280 which logically does have some merit, then you know, you're automatically again, no self 325 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:03,760 selecting or selecting against taking women. So, yeah, it's a bit of a nightmare, really, 326 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:12,520 of so many layers, you know, playing and interpolating together. 327 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:19,040 So yeah, I mean, but the issue is, the more unwelcoming the trade shows are, then the 328 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,080 less likely you want to you are to want to go. 329 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,760 But it's almost self fulfilling, though, isn't it? If we're not seeing the women being able 330 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,200 to attend. And there is definitely something in that, you know, rise did a great thing 331 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:37,840 the other day where the men, the mentees were allowed to attend DPP leaders briefing, fantastic 332 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:42,620 opportunity for them to be able to go in here from the mouths of the people, the leaders 333 00:33:42,620 --> 00:33:45,000 making the decisions. 334 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:52,720 It's going to be in reality, filtered down to them as junior staff. So we need to see 335 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:58,680 diverse points in career represented at these trade shows as well. That's another aspect 336 00:33:58,680 --> 00:33:59,680 of it. 337 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:09,760 Yeah. Yeah. And this was this was surprising to me, I would say these these stats. And 338 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:17,120 again, this is not a surprise that rise launched the program. This name, I can't remember. 339 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:18,120 Hopefully you can. 340 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:19,120 Drive to rise. 341 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:26,320 Yeah, whether you get picked, you get picked up over the taxi, the taxi one and then yeah, 342 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,320 yeah, no kits. 343 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:32,600 So just explain what that is. Just to be clear. 344 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:39,040 So the taxi thing at rise was that they can't remember who sponsored it. So apologies. But 345 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:47,160 it was it was sponsored by industry and it provided taxis to transport women from events 346 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:53,400 back to wherever they needed to go. So events had transport for people. Absolutely fantastic. 347 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:58,160 Because I have to say as a woman, that is the time that you do not feel safe. And it's 348 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:06,280 frustrating because I just still don't think men, no offense, Russell, can understand this 349 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:12,080 dread when you know you're going to leave any event and you know you're going to have 350 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:17,480 to walk through wherever it is on your own, potentially in the dark. And if you're not 351 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:22,080 going to walk on your own, you've got kind of, you know, generally got to gather a group 352 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:27,640 of drunk people to be like, right, got to leave now. It's just it's an added stress 353 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:34,280 that is just really annoying. So I was so happy to see that initiative. IBC this year. 354 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:35,880 Really, really amazing. 355 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:42,040 That's really good. You know, but I feel like I feel most frustrated about these numbers 356 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:46,920 like one and six have been harassed, one and seven don't feel safe. And even if we even 357 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:51,280 if we eliminate the kind of the evening stuff and only at the trade show, if it's still 358 00:35:51,280 --> 00:36:00,480 one in seven, I mean, it just sounds it sounds way too many. And so but they these all seem 359 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:06,920 almost as if they're they should be more achievable and so quicker to change. Because we know 360 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:12,280 that when we're talking about the demographics in the industry, we know that that's inextricably 361 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:19,560 linked to education. And that starts at the age of however, however, we want to count 362 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:27,320 it at four or five. You know, but this is just people being adults and perhaps failing 363 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:34,720 to do so, you know, it just it feels it feels as if we can, we should be able to change 364 00:36:34,720 --> 00:36:42,320 these numbers quicker than we can change the overall percentages of the quality and diversity. 365 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,480 But perhaps I'm perhaps I'm being naive there. 366 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:51,640 No, ever the optimist Russell, I like that. But these are doing it right. 367 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:58,360 No, but there are, you know, there are things this being harassed, unacceptable, we should 368 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:00,800 not be having one in six people still being harassed. 369 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,800 Yeah, I am. 370 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:09,040 It's something that companies, companies are against harassment in general, at the moment. 371 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:15,200 So the worst thing is, you know, I'm sure that I'm sure that most companies would take 372 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:20,800 some sort of action. But obviously, there will be the other examples where, you know, 373 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:27,080 they're not even so the company then becomes complicit, which is, which is awful. But, 374 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:33,560 but you know, it's the problem of even being able to explain what's what's happened and 375 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:38,240 whether you think the harassment was enough, you know, you can feel harassed. But it's 376 00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:40,200 going to be on that threshold, isn't it? 377 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:46,120 Yeah. And I do think there's a bit strong case for education around what is harassment, 378 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:50,200 which I, you know, I don't think we should be having to do because I feel like it is 379 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:55,720 common sense. But certainly the cases, and unfortunately, I have heard of several and 380 00:37:55,720 --> 00:38:02,800 in recent times, of women who have been harassed in the workplace. These, these are, it seems 381 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:07,440 to always be around people going, Oh, well, I didn't really think that that was a problem. 382 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:12,840 I thought it was okay to be like that, you know. So clearly, there's an issue there around 383 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:19,440 what we know what people think is okay. So I think that should be fairly, that should 384 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:21,440 just be dealt with. 385 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,440 I like that. 386 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:34,200 No, that's that. No, I think we we do agree. And, you know, but this is this, this comes 387 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:40,880 to this point, really, you know, people care, we don't know what to do. And, you know, you 388 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:46,280 can feel a little bit isolated. And so well, yeah, I'm sitting here, I'd like to hire 389 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:53,400 some, you know, diverse, proud, I'd like to have a diverse team, I agree with all of this. 390 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:58,160 And then you either think, right, well, this is perhaps not in line with what I'm actually 391 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:03,880 being asked to do is getting in the way of me achieving, you know, my, my productivity 392 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:09,680 at work, you know, my goals, whatever the KPIs are. I guess that's part of part of the 393 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:10,680 problem. 394 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:17,280 Well, yeah, well, that goes back to that point that I made originally about, you know, if 395 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:22,200 you if you aren't a company that's able to have someone in place to help with this, and 396 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:27,320 it is all on you, and you're not quite sure how to implement it, then yeah, I can see 397 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,640 how it does become an issue. 398 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,240 Implementing these things. 399 00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:36,400 So when I read through this first time, I thought, well, what's nice about this report 400 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:42,680 is it's not just doom and gloom and complaining. First of all, it doesn't complain, it just 401 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:47,600 states the facts. But, you know, it isn't, you know, just a bad news read. You know, 402 00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,280 this is, I mean, these are good numbers, right? 403 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:51,280 Yeah. 404 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:57,600 To think that, you know, most pretty much most people agree with having the diversity 405 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:04,160 would be a good idea. They in one way or another think it's relevant. You know, these, this 406 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,720 is encouraging to feel that we've got some sort of 407 00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:07,720 Will. 408 00:40:07,720 --> 00:40:17,680 Yeah, there's a body, there's a consensus. You know, but then, you know, how do we focus 409 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:22,320 that then that's what I guess that's been one of the best thing about the rise in general, 410 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:27,320 at least it's been the first thing that you can say, well, at least I can focus my energy 411 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:33,280 and my my opinions towards rise and help promote that even if it's an indirect. 412 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:34,280 Benefit. 413 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:42,040 Yeah, and and things like putting your staff through through the mentorship program, for 414 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:47,040 example, or supporting rise and being part of, you know, strive to rise and things like 415 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:51,240 that. There's plenty of opportunity to be to be involved for those who consider themselves 416 00:40:51,240 --> 00:40:53,200 not sure what to do. 417 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:54,200 Yeah. 418 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,200 But you know, 419 00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,800 and these numbers are great. So I'm not like, detracting from that. As the rest of the 420 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:06,000 report shows, there is a lot of work to do. So we definitely need to be more than just 421 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,000 kind of dipping our toes in. 422 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:12,520 Yeah, I wouldn't want to be trying. I wouldn't want to be trying to do all of that and only 423 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:16,320 having 20% of people who think it's a good idea. 424 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:17,320 Yeah. 425 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:24,360 I like this question here. What is diverse enough? And that really comes down to the 426 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:29,960 that just reinforces the problem that this is not a, you know, yes or no situation. This 427 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:30,960 is 428 00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:38,120 this will always be argued over, you know, whether you should be mimicking the population 429 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,360 percentages or this and the other. 430 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:46,760 But you know, we're not even close enough to to to decide if we've gone too far or not 431 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:47,760 at this point. 432 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:52,600 Well, I mean, I think there's some fundamental issues. A lot of it comes through education. 433 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:57,600 That's my background. So I probably would say that. But I think, you know, the filtering 434 00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:08,200 into the industry is a problem. But also, you know, it's fundamentally it's about it 435 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:13,160 should be welcoming. Anybody who wants to come and join should be able to come and join. 436 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,880 But the flip side of that is, well, they want to come and join if they can't see themselves 437 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,360 there. So, yeah. 438 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:27,520 Yeah. And then until very easy. The illusion of diversity is a great title, I think, which 439 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:34,520 just talks about, well, if you've achieved something as a company, which is above perhaps 440 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,720 most companies, then you know, you start to feel perhaps, oh, yeah, we're doing a pretty 441 00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:44,880 good job. Or if you're only looking at diversity of male, female, then you know, you're forgetting 442 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:53,520 or not even starting to think about the LGBTQ plus populations and all the other types of 443 00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,520 diversity of age and ethnicity. 444 00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:00,880 Kind of an accident. I think it's most of this, I think, is unintentional, but it's 445 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:06,000 kind of this accidental. Yeah. You accidentally greenwash your company. Oh, yeah. We recycle 446 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:13,560 a lot of paper. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, as I said, the report shows that there is 447 00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:21,040 still a long way to go here. And it's nice that the will is there. I mean, 85% is a lot 448 00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:30,520 different to say 85% of people thinking that companies diverse and yet overall 20% of actual, 449 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:34,960 you know, so there must be there must have to perhaps as a couple of outliers that were 450 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:41,240 extremely, you know, are actually diverse. I don't know, but it seems unlikely, isn't 451 00:43:41,240 --> 00:43:47,640 it? Yeah. Yeah. And then this is the other aspect of the positivity. Although we haven't 452 00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:54,960 got to being diverse. You know, it shows that actually more diverse companies do better 453 00:43:54,960 --> 00:44:00,840 in terms of revenue per employee. And, you know, I assume this is true. It's one of these 454 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:04,520 things that sounds true and sounds obvious, but, you know, sometimes you find out that 455 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:10,960 correlation is there, but the causation isn't. But, you know, if you have a more diverse 456 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:16,160 company, then people are happier to be around. And generally, if you've got someone who's 457 00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:20,080 been there for three to 10 years, they're going to be more useful than someone who's 458 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:24,320 only been there for one or two years. So if you're churning, then that's not going to 459 00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:28,200 be a good thing. Yeah, I think there's quite a few aspects that are going to kind of lead 460 00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:31,880 into this reporting higher revenue, aren't they? Like you say, it's going to be people 461 00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:37,360 hanging around, people being happy. But there's also going to be that different angles, different 462 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:42,760 points of views, different ways of thinking that are going to lead directly into different 463 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:48,680 delivery, which often is going to give you that higher revenue as well. So yeah, I think 464 00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:54,680 there's many aspects which, again, just shows, you know, the reason why it's important. So 465 00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,680 to do it. 466 00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:06,920 Absolutely. Yeah. So I think, you know, we've covered this in some ways already. It's like 467 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:14,840 the lack of progress is there. And now we've written it down. And the, you know, the important 468 00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:21,480 thing is that I think whenever you can write a business case behind something, then it's 469 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:25,360 a lot easier to convince a board to go for it. And I'm not saying that cynically, you 470 00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:31,800 know, businesses are there to make money. So if we can use information like this to 471 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:39,160 help point out that there is a benefit to having more diversity, then although it's 472 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:46,520 a longer term look, you'd hope that it would be easier to make the case internally. And 473 00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:53,080 of course, then if you do succeed, then pretty much you should, you should succeed in realizing 474 00:45:53,080 --> 00:46:00,840 some of these, these benefits. So I think that that kind of brings us to the end. So 475 00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:08,440 it was interesting to see the methodology. There was equality in terms of male versus 476 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:16,840 female respondents across the world. And it just goes into some of the, yeah, some of 477 00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:22,880 the things we won't go over that now. This, I'll put in the description how to get hold 478 00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:31,400 of this report from, from rise, you can, you can download this. So no, from your perspective, 479 00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:38,400 then Polly, just to just finish off, you see this as the beginning of tracking the next 480 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:44,560 two, three, four years of success. Yeah, I'd love, I, you know, I love this report. I'd 481 00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:50,640 love to see it again, to see what progress we can make, see these changes in numbers. 482 00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:55,680 I think part of achieving those changes in numbers is actually thinking about staff as 483 00:46:55,680 --> 00:47:04,680 people. So, you know, that I really feel like there needs to be more investment in our people. 484 00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:09,640 And just to go back to some of those points, you know, you're talking about, if we were 485 00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:15,960 to look at neurodiversity, for example, you know, I was recently went through an assessment 486 00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:24,640 for ADHD myself and had ADHD confirmed. And the part of that process, because I did it 487 00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:31,040 through work, was actually looking specifically at my strengths. And it was an amazing process 488 00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:36,800 to go through, because suddenly all the things that I had struggled with made sense, really 489 00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:42,360 struggle with exams, have really bad short term memory, totally make sense, really excellent 490 00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:47,720 ideas, because that's how my brain works. So I think kind of thinking about the people 491 00:47:47,720 --> 00:47:53,240 that we're employing and playing to everybody's strengths, is going to be a really, really 492 00:47:53,240 --> 00:47:59,440 key part of getting people into our industry, and then keeping them there. Because don't 493 00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:03,640 forget a lot of these numbers when we see drop offs, we're talking about people getting 494 00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:08,640 to the C level. If people have left before they've had that opportunity to have a full 495 00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:14,800 career, that's another reason why they're not going to get to that point. So I'm rambling 496 00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:15,800 now. 497 00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:16,800 But 498 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:23,840 I think what we don't want is people I mean, the worst, yeah, my simplistic mind, I think, 499 00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:29,840 well, if somebody doesn't want to be in a company, then they'll go to another company. 500 00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:34,200 But in my mind, that just means they go to another broadcaster or vendor. Obviously, 501 00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:38,880 no, they'll go to an industry which is more welcoming and aligned. 502 00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:44,360 Literally, whilst we've been having this conversation, I can see a message from my phone from someone 503 00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:48,000 going, I thought about what you said about maybe not leaving the industry. And I'm now 504 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:51,720 thinking about some other ways that maybe I can stay. So these conversations, they're 505 00:48:51,720 --> 00:48:58,200 happening all the time. So we need to pay more attention to whether our staff want to 506 00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:01,760 not just stay at our company, they want to stay in this industry. 507 00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:10,480 Yeah, 100% 100%. Thank you, Polly. I really enjoyed talking about this with you and look 508 00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:16,560 forward to conversations in the future. Just last thing to say is that I'm hoping that 509 00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:25,000 you will take pity on this new, new broadcast focus channel and give it a subscribe because 510 00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:31,880 that's the only way we're going to get any of this talked about and raised through this 511 00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:38,120 forum. It's easy, it's free to do. So do me a favor and that'd be fantastic. Thank you 512 00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:55,360 again, Polly. I look forward to seeing you again.