1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,200 You know what's crazy is like for all the different things that we talk about when it 2 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:11,280 comes to like human performance, you know, organizational health, the one that is the 3 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:16,560 one thing I will hear operators repeat over and over is how important feedback has been 4 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:17,560 to them. 5 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:22,560 And it seems so simple, but it's like, we say it and it seems simple, but no one's doing 6 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:23,560 it. 7 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:24,560 And it does. 8 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:30,640 And it keeps the ego where it should be. 9 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:35,040 Welcome to the firefighter craftsmanship podcast, where we give you real tools to train ultimate 10 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:38,520 humor performance both on and off the emergency scene. 11 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:40,520 I'm your host, Kevin Housley. 12 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:41,520 Let's get to it. 13 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:45,520 All right, welcome back to the firefighter craftsmanship podcast. 14 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:52,600 Today, we're super excited to welcome Dr. Barb Thompson and go ahead and tell us just a little 15 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:58,160 bit about yourself because you'll do your intro much more justice than I could ever possibly 16 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:00,720 do with all of your experience. 17 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:01,720 It's questionable. 18 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,400 But hi, I'm so happy to be here. 19 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:07,960 I am a military spouse. 20 00:01:07,960 --> 00:01:09,480 Well, now he's retired. 21 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:13,080 So a veteran spouse, I'm a veteran myself. 22 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:16,960 And my husband and I have five children. 23 00:01:16,960 --> 00:01:19,560 And I'm also an operational psychologist. 24 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:20,560 Awesome. 25 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:27,400 Yeah, you definitely downplayed it, but we'll get into why all of that stuff matters. 26 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:33,760 But I think five children alone is enough to say this lady's super tough. 27 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:37,520 It's a mic drop moment, you know, for sure. 28 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:39,880 A very resilient human we're about to talk to. 29 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:42,920 So very excited to kind of dive into this. 30 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,640 So what is an operational psychologist? 31 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:48,200 What does that even mean? 32 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:49,200 Yeah. 33 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:50,800 It's a great question. 34 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,240 I'll try to demystify it just a little bit. 35 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:58,000 So I think people are very familiar with what a clinical psychologist might do. 36 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:02,480 They picture them sitting in an office or a clinic of some kind. 37 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:08,120 And people who are having some emotional problems or mental problems, relational problems, come 38 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,160 in to see them, you know, on a weekly, bi-weekly basis. 39 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,240 So that's typically how we all start out. 40 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:18,200 We all have, for the most part, clinical training up to the PhD level. 41 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:24,240 And then operational psychology is training in addition to kind of what you've been through 42 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:25,240 in school. 43 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:32,560 So in my case, I joined the Army and had the great opportunity to get some OJT into the 44 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:34,080 operational psychology field. 45 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:39,280 So what that meant for me at the time was taking my clinical training and turning it on its 46 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:44,320 head a little bit, using it in a more consultive manner. 47 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:50,640 And so I got to go through a CER school and learn all about how human behavior changes 48 00:02:50,640 --> 00:02:54,840 when you're captured, isolated, or in captivity. 49 00:02:54,840 --> 00:03:02,320 I got to learn how we use psychological measures and interview measures to assess and select 50 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:07,520 people for high-risk, high-performing teams. 51 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,920 And additionally, I got to support the intelligence community. 52 00:03:11,920 --> 00:03:16,360 Medical psychologists exist outside of the military as well in all those agencies, those 53 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:21,360 cool agencies that I have not worked for, but doing similar things. 54 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:22,360 Does that make sense? 55 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,080 So everything's still about human behavior. 56 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:30,000 It's just that the purpose and nature of your work changes just a bit. 57 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:36,760 Yeah, I love the term that operational psychology for sure, especially for those of us in emergency 58 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:37,760 services. 59 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:41,360 Well, we're very familiar with operations and we like to talk about basic skills training 60 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:48,080 and that's where we really focus most of our energy and effort organizationally. 61 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:52,200 And now that we're trying to crack this whole, how do we train the mental game? 62 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:56,360 Because the reality is in emergency services, police have been doing it for a while, but 63 00:03:56,360 --> 00:04:03,040 it's been almost exclusively for SWAT teams, which is definitely a paramilitary style organization. 64 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:07,800 The American Fire Service specifically has completely ignored the mental game. 65 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:11,800 And luckily now, at least we have a great conversation that has started within the last 66 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:13,280 five to seven years. 67 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:18,840 It's not very old about mental health, but that's all reactionary. 68 00:04:18,840 --> 00:04:24,280 So that would be that real psychology, hey, come sit on my couch and tell me which not 69 00:04:24,280 --> 00:04:25,600 everybody's into, right? 70 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,640 Not everybody's into talk therapy yet. 71 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:33,560 And so that's somewhat of a barrier of entry based on the population and emergency services. 72 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:35,840 It's a very, very important. 73 00:04:35,840 --> 00:04:42,320 Is there, it sounds like there's another side of psychology principles that we can use to 74 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:46,080 help build resilience and build high performing teams. 75 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:47,080 Yeah. 76 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:48,080 Yeah. 77 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:51,240 And in fact, I think that we've definitely seen it work. 78 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:57,280 I'll speak just to the military because that's where my experience is. 79 00:04:57,280 --> 00:05:02,560 What we see behaviorally whenever we start really, really early talking about the psychological 80 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:10,880 principles that help you not only perform better, but I hate, and I'd hate to use the 81 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:15,360 word balance, but balance multiple variables in your life, right? 82 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:20,680 Not performance may be the most important thing in some phase of your life. 83 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:26,200 But as you know, as every human knows, the relationships you have in your life are also 84 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:32,360 very important, whether that's with your children, your spouse, your really good friends. 85 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:34,600 That's what makes life most enjoyable, right? 86 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:36,880 Is the relationships that we have. 87 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:44,720 And so when we start to teach people early, as early in their careers as possible, the 88 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:49,680 fact is we know that they're going to be stressed beyond what they've been stressed in the past, 89 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:51,560 most likely. 90 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:56,800 And the earlier we can teach them that, the earlier we start to see, and like you said, 91 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:03,920 it takes years for this to become a fixture of the culture rather than just something 92 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:10,920 these like strange doctors are telling us that are part of, like not part of our group, 93 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,120 they're kind of strange nerds. 94 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,600 And I think you and I will talk about some of the important things and teaming together 95 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,320 in group outgroup for some of this messaging. 96 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:27,800 But yeah, some of the behaviors we see are that their identity is not all one thing. 97 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:29,040 It's varied. 98 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,600 It has multiple factors, right? 99 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:39,560 So if one pin falls, not all of the pin, the rest of the pins fall, does that make sense? 100 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:40,560 Yeah. 101 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:41,560 Okay. 102 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:51,840 So the first thing we see is the ability to hold in their mind the possibility for doing 103 00:06:51,840 --> 00:06:58,240 other things in life at an earlier stage. 104 00:06:58,240 --> 00:06:59,240 Does that make sense? 105 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:00,240 Absolutely. 106 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:01,240 Yeah. 107 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:05,320 And it's something that I've been talking about a while, a little while, you know, of, 108 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,600 hey, in the fire service, I'll speak the fire service specifically because that's what I've 109 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:14,320 known for the last 20 years is very, very common for a career to last 25 to 30 years. 110 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:18,360 That's probably the average across most organizations. 111 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:20,920 But I'm kind of a cyborg on this one. 112 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:25,760 Maybe it's time to start thinking maybe that doesn't need to be the normal. 113 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:32,120 And if you don't meet that mythical mark, it certainly doesn't make you less than in 114 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,280 the human perspective, right? 115 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:40,360 But you'll talk to people that left the fire service five, 10, 15 years in and like the 116 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:45,280 flag that they caught, which wasn't good from people that they highly respected. 117 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,800 It was a cultural violation. 118 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:53,360 And we need to talk about if you come in here and you crush it and at some point you're 119 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:58,960 like, I've reached my limit, then organizationally, I think we should support you and train you 120 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,800 and empower you to go out and crush it and something else. 121 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:03,800 Okay. 122 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,040 That's exactly what I'm talking about. 123 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:07,040 Yep. 124 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:08,040 Exactly. 125 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:15,560 So if you want to hire and retain the most talented, the most motivated people you can 126 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:25,240 for your organization, then the threat of being blackballed shouldn't really exist unless 127 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,440 it's for other reasons, you know what I'm saying? 128 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:34,800 But certainly not like, hey, I think that my performance, whether it be phase of life, 129 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:42,400 whether it be other interests or lacking motivation or even physical injury, like when someone 130 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:47,400 is smart enough to say like, hey, it might be time for me to move on. 131 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:54,880 Not only does that hold value and respect for the organization itself saying, I know 132 00:08:54,880 --> 00:09:02,160 that there are just taking myself this point in time, there's more motivated, more driven, 133 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:07,760 more kind of like physically ready people to take this position now. 134 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:14,200 So it respects the organization, it respects the role, it also respects the mission, right? 135 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:22,640 And but what it takes is a lack of ego and the ability, right? 136 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:30,960 To identify yourself as something more, it's not more than, it's just like there are additional 137 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:35,520 parts of you as a human being. 138 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:42,120 And so often it's hard to do, right? 139 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:46,880 It's hard to do in the human brain because when something is so difficult to get into 140 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:52,560 and it takes all of your time, energy and attention to reach a goal. 141 00:09:52,560 --> 00:09:56,600 It's very hard to at the same time focus on anything else. 142 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:58,760 And that's not what we're asking, right? 143 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,800 We're just saying like, let's be aware together. 144 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:07,640 You're obviously hyperforming, you're very bright, you're very capable. 145 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:12,680 And that's going to impact the world in a positive way. 146 00:10:12,680 --> 00:10:16,320 It could impact the world in a positive way in multiple directions. 147 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:25,040 Right now, it's as a firefighter, right now it's as a special operations operator. 148 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,120 And no doubt you're going to crush it for as long as possible. 149 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:33,120 But when you decide to leave, we should be like, here's what we gained from you. 150 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:34,200 What did you get out of it? 151 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:35,200 What did you learn? 152 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:37,920 What should we be teaching the others coming behind you? 153 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:44,120 And like, and on your way out, you know what I mean? 154 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:52,800 And that has, I have seen that change because, yeah, I've seen it change, but it took some time. 155 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:53,800 Yeah. 156 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:57,000 And do you think that change is coming because of like the mental health? 157 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:02,360 I'm not going to use the word stigma, but just the mental health impact of, you know, 158 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:08,280 when people are leaving a career, whether it's, you know, as a warfighter, a cop, an 159 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:14,000 EMS provider or a firefighter, and that there's a lot of things that we need to unpack 160 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:17,720 after however long that career is, you know, at some point you're going to be exposed to 161 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,720 things that are not normal for humans to see. 162 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:21,720 No, right. 163 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,760 Or go into those environments. 164 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:30,360 So do you think that that change, like on your end of this whole like organizational spectrum 165 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:34,120 is because of that? 166 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:35,840 I think that's one of the factors. 167 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:36,840 Yeah. 168 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:39,000 I don't think that it's all because of that. 169 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:48,720 But yeah, certainly I wouldn't, I would never put a limit on what I mean, you know, from 170 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:54,760 instances and literature coming out of like either military operations or otherwise, you 171 00:11:54,760 --> 00:12:01,400 know, Holocaust, like super tragic traumas, like I'm not going to put a limit on what 172 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:06,480 humans can withstand. 173 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:10,920 But certainly it's always an element of, and I think when we teach people like here are 174 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:22,760 the tools we have to prepare you the best we know how to deal with the unique experiences 175 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:28,360 and they're going to see and face and think about. 176 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:33,160 There is a limit to the tools like at some point, you know what I mean? 177 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:38,840 Like it is going to affect you, but I don't think that that's everything. 178 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:45,240 I think that it's also like keeping in mind a holistic view of performance. 179 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:52,480 So not just performance at work, but like what do you value most and are you performing? 180 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:53,480 I use quotes, right? 181 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:58,120 Like performing, we wouldn't normally talk about that like, oh, how am I performing as 182 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,920 a mom, but it matters to me. 183 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:01,920 You know what I mean? 184 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:09,680 Like when some of, sometimes when really, really successful people in their career find either 185 00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:15,040 their spouse tells them or their kids give them a clue, like, hey, I'm not, I may be 186 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:19,680 great at work, but I'm not performing so well in these other areas of life that I really 187 00:13:19,680 --> 00:13:26,360 care about, you know, that can tip the scale a little bit too. 188 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:27,880 Yeah, absolutely. 189 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:33,360 So what do you think like an organization's role or even responsibility in that factor 190 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:40,120 is, I mean, we know what the role and responsibility is on for 911 response or for, you know, mission 191 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:42,440 success or something along those lines. 192 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:44,000 It's pretty easy to define it. 193 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:48,320 I think that's why we put so much of our time and energy into it because I know if I, if 194 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:53,040 I threw the ladder correctly on that building in the snow with blowing out of a different 195 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:54,040 side of the building, right? 196 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,720 I know it's very easy for us to, to track that. 197 00:13:57,720 --> 00:13:58,720 Uh-huh. 198 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:04,280 Harder for us to track success other than using data points of the extreme rate of divorce 199 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:10,160 and emergency services and mental health thing that we're starting to track. 200 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,440 So what's an organization's role in that? 201 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:14,440 Yeah. 202 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:15,440 Yeah. 203 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,680 Wouldn't you like to track some other variables? 204 00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:27,000 You know, I mean, to be frank, besides divorce and suicide, and we should, we should. 205 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:34,320 So well, gosh, I think it's, it's definitely multifaceted. 206 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:41,960 But the leaders have to have the ability to look down and in the organization and, and 207 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:46,760 do the work, make sure all those things are taken care of the people, the equipment, the 208 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:50,800 training, like you said, which is typically, you know, what we would spend the majority 209 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:54,600 of time doing as a leader, but you also have to have the ability or at least be able to 210 00:14:54,600 --> 00:15:01,600 consult with someone who has the ability to step back and be reflective about, you know, 211 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,120 like the bigger picture. 212 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,800 Where is the culture right now? 213 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:14,040 You know, many organizations do surveys, but the culture can, you know, you can, you can 214 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:15,160 find it in other ways. 215 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:16,880 Like what are people doing on the job? 216 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:18,200 How are they spending their time? 217 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,360 How are they talking to one another about the job? 218 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:22,880 What are they doing when they're not at work? 219 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:24,880 You know what I mean? 220 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:30,320 And some of those things will tell you about the kind of norms of the culture, like those 221 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:38,560 unseen or unverbalized patterns, like in group versus out group, right? 222 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:43,920 And a lot of that starts the day, well, even before people show up at work, right? 223 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:51,400 And so at, at the last unit I was at, we had some like military members at the unit, they 224 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:58,240 would help, you know, with the assessment selection process, like be a part of the process. 225 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:00,640 And we were very deliberate about all of that, right? 226 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:06,280 So just know people are trying and putting themselves out there. 227 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:10,120 They're being the most vulnerable they've ever been in their life, trying the hardest 228 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,960 they've ever tried in order to be part of this group. 229 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:18,280 We have exceptional power of influence right now. 230 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:23,320 And so we're going to, we're going to be exceptionally careful about the way that we speak to one 231 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,720 another, the way that we speak about our unit, the way they speak about the mission, and 232 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:28,880 the way that we treat them. 233 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:34,240 Because everything they see coming in is how they think that it just is, right? 234 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:39,520 So we're not going to show up late with, you know, ripped jeans and whatever, bad breath. 235 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:43,720 I'm just using those silly examples, but you know what I mean, right? 236 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:48,520 And you know, after it's done, we're not going to be like, congratulations, you made the unit, 237 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,840 let's go get you falling down drunk, right? 238 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:56,120 Because immediately, even though no one's saying like, here's, here's the behavior that 239 00:16:56,120 --> 00:17:02,160 is, that equals professional at this unit, we're showing them in each and every way. 240 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:08,640 And so being really careful about how you onboard people in both the subtle ways and 241 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:13,280 the direct ways, you can talk about, you know, hey, for this organization, these are the five 242 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,400 things that we value above all else, right? 243 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:20,920 Like what does being a professional in this organization look like when you're at work 244 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:22,560 or when you're not at work? 245 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:24,520 What are the expectations? 246 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:30,800 And I think that it goes a long way to do it at the beginning, you know what I mean? 247 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,800 And is the organization using those same things they're saying at the beginning? 248 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:36,840 Because sometimes that's the easy part, right? 249 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:41,000 We're the greatest unit on earth, like we're not doing anything wrong on the job or off 250 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:48,440 the job, but how are normal organizational behaviors reflecting those values that we, 251 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,320 those things that we say we value? 252 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,680 So are we hiring based on what we say we value? 253 00:17:54,680 --> 00:18:02,160 Are, you know, are we disciplining or rewarding based on what we say we value? 254 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:08,080 And all the other, you know, like, are we promoting based on what we say we value and 255 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:14,560 we know to be good for the culture and firing, of course, would be one as well. 256 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:19,480 Yeah, hopefully that doesn't happen, but it's part of it for sure. 257 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,280 Or helping to get to a better spot, right? 258 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:27,120 Even if that's outside of the organization. 259 00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:31,600 So some things are obviously egregious and you deserve to get fired for it. 260 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:37,360 But sometimes it's like, ah, this just right, maybe we put you in that position organizationally. 261 00:18:37,360 --> 00:18:43,240 And so, hey, let's put you back, but there's a big cultural problem there as well, right? 262 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,200 With egos for sure. 263 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:50,120 But how do we, is that a normal thing where people are ebb and flowing based on success? 264 00:18:50,120 --> 00:18:55,320 And I've heard you talk before about, you know, we're pretty good in all of these industries 265 00:18:55,320 --> 00:19:00,640 that definitely cross pollinate about, you know, if you're a really, really successful 266 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:05,400 operator, you know, you might get promoted and try to lead an entire team of people or 267 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:10,320 I've heard you use the example, don't necessarily put the best sales person in charge of the 268 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,760 entire sales team that might not be where they're. 269 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:14,760 Right. 270 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:19,960 But it's a tradition, you know, it's the way we've always done it. 271 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:23,480 Yeah, yeah, that's one of my favorite things in emergency services. 272 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:24,960 That's the way we've always done it, right? 273 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:25,960 That's not an answer. 274 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:30,880 It's just, I don't have the time and energy or the care to actually figure out why do 275 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:32,120 we do it that way? 276 00:19:32,120 --> 00:19:34,720 Yeah, for sure. 277 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:41,440 Lots of really good stuff there indeed and all based in really cool and solid psychological 278 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:42,440 theory, right? 279 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:47,640 Of course, like self-determination theory and we just did a podcast in self-efficacy, 280 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:51,000 which really plays into all of this stuff as well. 281 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,880 And so this, you know, for the nerdy podcast episodes that we do every once in a while 282 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,280 here on firefighter craftsmanship, there's a reason, right? 283 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:04,680 And so Dr. Thompson is connecting those dots in a very fluid way because she's been operating 284 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:06,280 in the space for a long time. 285 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:11,720 So that's kind of that cross-pollination of sports psychology, human performance psychology, 286 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,640 operational psychology, that's not just looking at data. 287 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,920 It's, well, what about the people within the data? 288 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,800 And I think that that's a really cool new angle that you're working on. 289 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:25,480 It's definitely not always, I mean, it takes a team to do any of this stuff, right? 290 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:26,920 It takes hard conversations. 291 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:31,800 It takes courage because sometimes it's not the cool thing, right? 292 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:37,520 To talk about youth probably, you just mentioned the N-word nerd. 293 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:38,520 Yeah. 294 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:46,800 So, so what I've found is that it's best done as a multidisciplinary team. 295 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:47,800 You know what I mean? 296 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:57,800 Like you, me coming into, like female psychologists coming into an all-male career field and saying, 297 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:08,200 here's how you're going to obtain and maintain the best performance, like, okay. 298 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:09,320 That's okay. 299 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:10,320 That's okay, right? 300 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,480 Like you can, as an organization, you can hire an expert, total outsider, and some, there's 301 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,240 a lot of value to that because they can bring some insight that people that are like too 302 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,360 far down and in aren't seeing. 303 00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:22,280 So I recommend that. 304 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:30,960 But when there's like an ongoing relationship that is genuine and you can do it hand in hand, 305 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:37,880 like the most successful programs have always been, again, in the military, like operator 306 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:39,840 and a psych doing it together, right? 307 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:45,760 Because you have that person who already has the bona fides with the in-group. 308 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,480 And not only do they already have, they already carry the trust. 309 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:55,640 So their trust transfers to whoever the expert is in the room, but they can also translate, 310 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,080 which is really, really important. 311 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:06,200 So you say self-determination theory, most people turn their ears off, right? 312 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:13,040 But when you're doing it together, like there's just this wild inner play and normally it 313 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:18,800 does take, like, even from the operational standpoint, somebody like you who's been in 314 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:25,640 the in-group who's performed well there, willing to kind of stick their neck out for everybody 315 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:31,400 else, create these relationships, bring in these conversations and be a bit progressive, 316 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:33,320 like seeing the bigger picture. 317 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:35,120 Yeah, awesome. 318 00:22:35,120 --> 00:22:36,120 Fantastic. 319 00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:38,280 And yeah, I think it's language. 320 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:39,800 So much gets lost in language. 321 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:44,640 And I think you make a great point there of, yeah, work with outside entities, but help 322 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:45,640 them out. 323 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:47,960 You have to help them to help people. 324 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,520 Like I'll use terms right here in our conversation today where you're like, I think I know what 325 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:55,400 that means, but I'm using it as something that I've been talking this way for 20 years 326 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,040 organizationally or in the fire service specifically. 327 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,960 It might mean something completely different in your context. 328 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:08,960 And so having those, that good open communication and finding the right consultants or people 329 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:14,880 or whatever that you bring in or have within your organization. 330 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,800 And so often we kind of discredit the people that do work in our organizations that are 331 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:24,600 probably highly, highly educated, trained, maybe not even a formal situation, but there's 332 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,960 so much information out there. 333 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,800 Don't downplay the people that are actually trying to create positive organizational change 334 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,800 within your group. 335 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:38,200 Even if you're labeling them as now a complainer, maybe they're not a complainer, maybe they 336 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:44,120 are on the leading edge and they're willing to, hey, I'll go first. 337 00:23:44,120 --> 00:23:45,120 Yeah. 338 00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:47,800 So very hard to do, right? 339 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:49,560 Like when you're embedded in those organizations. 340 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:50,560 Yeah. 341 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:52,240 Thanks a lot of courage. 342 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:53,240 Yes. 343 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:54,240 Indeed. 344 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,440 So where would an organization start? 345 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:57,840 Like how do we start? 346 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:04,000 I mean, it has to happen at all levels from the very earliest before they're even hired 347 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:08,080 all the way until we help them transition to retirement or potentially they're at the 348 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:13,800 highest level running whatever the organization is, whatever rank structure that would be, 349 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:14,800 right? 350 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,000 I mean, they all need to be involved in this at some level. 351 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:19,000 Yeah. 352 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:26,120 I mean, I think just initially it's probably you might have all the information or you 353 00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:29,080 might not have to do anything drastic to find the information you need. 354 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:30,800 You already mentioned the statistics. 355 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:32,480 So you could start with that. 356 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,440 Like what are our greatest problems? 357 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,600 You know, and you know, like how do we know that? 358 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,600 Not just what are my greatest personal problems in the organization, but overall what are 359 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:43,600 we saying? 360 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:50,040 Like what's making people, what's breaking people, what's making people leave and what 361 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,240 are the things, why do people come here and why do they want to stay? 362 00:24:53,240 --> 00:25:02,200 You know, you can start with something simple like that, but certainly you don't want to, 363 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,600 I don't know, your organization is unique. 364 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:05,600 You know what I mean? 365 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,280 Like start with, start with what's in front of you. 366 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:09,780 That would be my advice. 367 00:25:09,780 --> 00:25:14,280 And if there's plenty of people who will come in and try to do it for you as well, and they 368 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:19,520 can maybe give you some additional structure or at least be accountable just for that process 369 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:24,760 of finding, you know, kind of what are the strengths of the organization right now? 370 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:25,760 What are the weaknesses? 371 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:26,760 Where are the gaps? 372 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,080 You know, yeah, does that make sense? 373 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:36,520 So there's surveys, there's all kinds of ways to do it, but my hunch is initially for a 374 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:41,800 starting point, organizations probably already have some information to go on on their greatest 375 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:42,800 pain points. 376 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:48,000 Yeah, and I think an easy one, I like to ask people in emergency services, you know, what 377 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,040 are the top two issues that we're dealing with right now? 378 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:56,040 And so far, every single person, even consultants that work with emergency services that aren't 379 00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:02,720 necessarily in group, they all need treatment and retention. 380 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:07,800 And so recruitment and retention, and you've talked about that on that really well crafted 381 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:13,240 answer of how do we bring these people in before we even onboard them? 382 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,480 And what are the things that we say we actually do? 383 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:20,200 And then I love that quote of, what you do speak so loudly, I can't hear what you're 384 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,880 saying. 385 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:24,760 Are we living it? 386 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:25,760 Are we? 387 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:27,840 That's easy for us to be hanging on the wall, right? 388 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:32,160 And the mission statement and the core values and all that stuff hanging on the wall. 389 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:33,160 Right. 390 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:34,160 Are we living it? 391 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:35,240 And how are we living it? 392 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,640 Because sometimes the way that we're living it might not actually be positive. 393 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:45,920 Yeah, another easy way for organizations to start that cultural change is, okay, you have 394 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,560 core values, or at least there's some on the wall. 395 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:51,920 And I don't know who made those up. 396 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,080 It varies by organization. 397 00:26:54,080 --> 00:27:02,120 But people, when they hear the word integrity, let's just say, right, everyone thinks that 398 00:27:02,120 --> 00:27:04,720 something a little bit different probably. 399 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:12,360 And so it would be very beneficial to the organization if in their values, whatever values fit for 400 00:27:12,360 --> 00:27:18,280 that organization, that they would define them behaviorally for people so they actually 401 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:24,880 know what does it look like to have integrity at work? 402 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:26,160 Give me an example. 403 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,120 What does that actually look like? 404 00:27:28,120 --> 00:27:30,880 What does it look like to, I don't know. 405 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:31,880 What's another? 406 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:36,320 What's a common goal you see across the common value? 407 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:37,320 Service. 408 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:38,320 Yeah. 409 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:39,320 Okay. 410 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:40,320 Is it automatic? 411 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,880 Like if I'm in, am I already doing it? 412 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,640 What does that mean behaviorally? 413 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,920 And I think that that really helps people. 414 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:56,280 And then it becomes something that we can hold each other accountable for in a real way. 415 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:57,280 Now what does that mean? 416 00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:58,720 Because we hear accountability a lot. 417 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,520 It's a new favorite buzzword in emergency services, accountability, because it's easy 418 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:08,240 to be like, oh, you messed up, especially on a scene, on those easy things. 419 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,480 But does accountability always mean like discipline? 420 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,280 No, not necessarily. 421 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:21,280 I think accountability is the willingness to give your teammates feedback. 422 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:28,360 So we're all, I mean, that is something we should all feel the responsibility to do. 423 00:28:28,360 --> 00:28:35,840 If we're not giving one another feedback, then it's a huge, huge gap. 424 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:37,240 And lots of things could happen there. 425 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,360 Number one, people aren't growing at the rate that we want them to grow. 426 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,920 Number two, they might not even know anything is wrong. 427 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:50,480 And number three, it could lead to a mistake they can't take back or burnout, then leaving 428 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:55,840 the career, like a number of things that if we were just talking to one another. 429 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,720 So keeping each other accountable is really the hard part. 430 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:01,920 It's usually not the person that gets the feedback. 431 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:03,160 It's the person giving the feedback. 432 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:10,720 It's really hard to say, and for teammates to go, hey, I have a tendency, because I know 433 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:15,920 myself, under stress, I tend to lash pretty easily. 434 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:21,960 If I start using a tone of voice that is not helpful for the team, can you give me a look? 435 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:22,960 Can you say a word? 436 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:23,960 Can you tell me? 437 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,080 Can you just fix it? 438 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,440 So teammates being willing to not just get to know each other, like, oh, how was your 439 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:31,440 weekend? 440 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,040 But hey, what do you see as your own strengths and weaknesses? 441 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,880 Every once in a while, we're going to help each other out on that and tell each other, 442 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,160 hey, here's what I see you should do more of. 443 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,680 Here's what I see you should stop doing. 444 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:53,840 And here's the thing I think you should keep doing to be most successful in your role here. 445 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:58,400 And then I'm going to receive that same amount of feedback so that my way forward is not 446 00:29:58,400 --> 00:29:59,400 nebulous. 447 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,720 It's a lot more specific. 448 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:07,960 So accountability is really like, are we doing the work in the area of feedback? 449 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:09,760 Not a coincidence. 450 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,800 We're used to giving feedback on skills, right? 451 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:14,120 That's the easy part. 452 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:23,800 But we're not used to giving feedback on character, on team dynamics, on if we're kind of operating 453 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:28,200 in alignment with the organizational values. 454 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,680 Yeah, that's amazing. 455 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:35,480 We could of course end on the podcast right now and that's people who would just listen 456 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,200 to over and over and over it really good. 457 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:39,200 It's hard though. 458 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:40,200 It's hard. 459 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:41,440 And the leader, so the leader needs to go first, right? 460 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,360 And it has to just be a regular behavior. 461 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:44,440 Become part of what we do. 462 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:48,840 It's just part of what we do is every six months we sit down and we give everyone stop, 463 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:49,840 start, continue. 464 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:50,840 It's short. 465 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,960 We just have to wait two minutes a person and the leader goes first. 466 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:54,960 You know? 467 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:55,960 That's hard, right? 468 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,960 It's hard to change maybe some of those cultures because that doesn't always happen as you've 469 00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:06,560 seen no doubt in your professional career as an active duty service member and then 470 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:08,840 all the way until what you're doing now. 471 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:13,240 You've seen probably all scopes of how that plays out. 472 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,520 You know what's crazy is like for all the different things that we talk about when it 473 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:25,200 comes to human performance, organizational health, that is the one thing I will hear 474 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:29,920 operators repeat over and over is how important feedback has been to them. 475 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,720 And it seems so simple, but it's like we say it and it seems simple, but no one's doing 476 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,400 it and it makes such a big difference. 477 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:39,400 It's simple. 478 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:40,640 It's not easy. 479 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:41,800 But that's not me saying it. 480 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:43,920 That's just like I've been surprised. 481 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:44,920 You know what I mean? 482 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,680 I've been surprised for how many times like operators have been like, hey, feedback is 483 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:48,760 the key, guys. 484 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:49,760 And it does. 485 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:54,800 It builds trust and it keeps the ego where it should be, right? 486 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:59,960 It's not to, it's trusting the people around you and it's, and it's, it's not, it's like 487 00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:03,920 constantly tearing down that wall that the ego is trying to build up like, good, I don't 488 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:05,920 need anything, you know. 489 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:06,920 Yeah. 490 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,720 Very important to also have positive feedback in there. 491 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:10,720 It's so easy for us. 492 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,200 Oh my gosh, for sure. 493 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:13,200 Yeah. 494 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,720 And with us as humans having that negative mindset because it's kept us safe and alive 495 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:23,960 for many, many years, it's make sure that we're also rewarding the things that you want to 496 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,120 see, you know, don't cover up the stuff that you need. 497 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:33,800 Like I like that the, the stop start continue good stuff and it could be as simple as that, 498 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:34,800 right? 499 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,680 It doesn't need to be like some grandiose framework. 500 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:38,680 Please don't. 501 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:39,680 There you go. 502 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:40,760 There's the answer. 503 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:41,760 Please don't. 504 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:43,760 Yeah, I like it. 505 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:50,960 And that's, I'm actually not great about that even as a supervisor role and I've had, you 506 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,400 know, people tell me that like, Hey, I wish you would give me more feedback. 507 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:59,480 And I kind of came from the school of no news is good news. 508 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:05,080 But I, but then when I look at it and I hear somebody say, like if I have a complaint or 509 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:10,680 a suggestion or whatever, and they start by actively listening to me and then maybe even 510 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:15,400 using the words like, I believe you, like I believe that this is a thing that you're 511 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,760 dealing with, like validating what that is. 512 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:25,240 Um, like that's feedback there too, just along the ways without like some super stressful. 513 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:29,200 We got to go in the office and have this formal thing with the boss, right? 514 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:35,360 Yeah, just make it a part of like your regular, regular battle with them, you know? 515 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:36,360 Yeah. 516 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:37,360 Yeah. 517 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:38,760 Celebrate those wins, you know, celebrate the wins. 518 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:43,120 Especially if you have wins on calls, like, Hey, that's awesome. 519 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:47,680 Like great recognition of boom, this and then you solve the problem. 520 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:53,240 Like awesome versus just attacking people when they don't necessarily meet the mark. 521 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,200 So what are some of the skills that we should train on? 522 00:33:55,200 --> 00:34:00,320 Like from an operational psychologist perspective, what are like those bigger skills that you're 523 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,560 training like with special operations units? 524 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,440 What are you trying to give these folks? 525 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:10,560 Um, well, what we know to be like mental training skills. 526 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:17,400 So the ability to manage your energy, manage your, you know, your thoughts, kind of everything 527 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:22,600 going on inside, um, during a stressful event or during a training event. 528 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:28,640 Um, and there's, I mentioned it in the, you know, uh, the emergency mind podcast, you 529 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:32,240 know, the kind of those five skills, um, but they're out there. 530 00:34:32,240 --> 00:34:35,440 So you can just like Google mental training skills and they'll be out there. 531 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:36,440 Right. 532 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,160 It's going to be things like, um, you know, breath work, right? 533 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:43,720 Like the ability to, uh, be more in control over your physiology, right? 534 00:34:43,720 --> 00:34:51,440 Like how hard you're, how fast your, you know, heart is racing and how, how, um, how your 535 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:55,440 breath rate is, um, then your thoughts, like, are your thoughts racing? 536 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,400 Where are you keeping your focus, right? 537 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:02,160 Like your internal, external focus, things like that, uh, being able to visualize and 538 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:08,240 using that as a form of building all the, the mental muscles and physical muscles. 539 00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:10,040 We know that it works physically too. 540 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:18,240 Um, in your mind, aside from the middle training skills and doubling down on the, the values 541 00:35:18,240 --> 00:35:23,640 of the organization, defining those behaviorally, we always do train on feedback. 542 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:25,320 We actually train it. 543 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,840 And here's how you do it and we do use the stop, start, continue method. 544 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:34,120 Um, so that's something we're training from the very beginning and then we actually have 545 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:35,120 them do it. 546 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,400 Um, so we start right there, right? 547 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:38,640 We start right there. 548 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:43,200 Most of the military organizations in the special operations anyway, they'll have to 549 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:44,320 go through an assessment selection. 550 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,080 So what we do is we have them take, you know, kind of like personality assessments and things 551 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:49,080 like that. 552 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:54,720 And then we debrief those, um, so that they kind of know in this context, in this environment, 553 00:35:54,720 --> 00:35:59,880 um, they become very intimate, like with what, what might be my strengths and weaknesses 554 00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:05,440 and what are some things I can do now to kind of be a buffer for those and things in the 555 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:06,440 future. 556 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:11,160 Um, and I would say two more things. 557 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:16,200 One thing is just, um, like being and calling out your own values. 558 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:21,920 Um, you know, a lot of people just haven't had the opportunity to do like a values exercise 559 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:27,280 and say for me personally, you know, kind of what are my values and like digging deep 560 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:32,640 into that a little bit and defining those behaviorally so that when they're caught in 561 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:36,480 between a rock and a hard place, like they have that steady ground to go on. 562 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,080 Um, when they're having a rough day, like they can just immediately go back and look 563 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:46,640 at those things and knowing why you're doing something, not just at a surface level, but 564 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:53,840 like three, four layers deep really is when everything is terrible, like that is the thing 565 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:55,080 that's going to keep you going. 566 00:36:55,080 --> 00:37:01,680 So if you find that early, um, and when we've heard it all the time, right, like, because 567 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,120 we will even do that before their assessment selection will say like, Hey, why are you 568 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:06,120 here? 569 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:11,640 You know, and then, and try to help them dig really deep and put actual words to it, right, 570 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:15,960 maybe even like some one line thing where they can repeat to themselves and they, they 571 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:21,480 know it's like that firm foundation and, um, and we'll hear like in difficult situations, 572 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:22,840 like what guy threw in their sake? 573 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,440 Cause I, I remembered my why. 574 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:33,360 So that, that's something to do from the very beginning, you know, or those things are things 575 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,280 we try to train on from the very beginning. 576 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,840 This is day, essentially day zero at the unit. 577 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:45,160 And I would venture to guess that that like we would call that the guiding principles, 578 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,880 like within our firefighter, craftsmanship curriculum stuff, right? 579 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:53,520 Like defining your why and using that decision matrix as your filter and Hey, do I go for 580 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:54,520 promotion? 581 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:56,020 Do I leave the career? 582 00:37:56,020 --> 00:38:02,320 Um, all of how do I deal with a, uh, superior or somebody below me in the chain of command, 583 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:06,000 like all of those sorts of things within your why or your guiding principles. 584 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:10,560 And I'm gonna, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say for a lot of these young people 585 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:15,080 that you're getting to talk to you before they go through a selection. 586 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:16,400 There's some bad people, right? 587 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,000 Like tough, really tough. 588 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:27,280 And I bet you that that exercise for some of them is way harder than the physical, um, 589 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,920 things that they're about to do in training. 590 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,480 100%, 100%. 591 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,440 And across the board, everybody says it. 592 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:36,600 The hardest part is never physical. 593 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:38,100 Yeah. 594 00:38:38,100 --> 00:38:42,880 And then when you have that introspection that, you know, that's, that's tough. 595 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:43,880 That's really, really tough. 596 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:49,520 But it's very, very important and it can lead to that longterm success in your career and 597 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:54,960 and having those, um, benchmarks along the way of saying, Hey, I've reached that benchmark 598 00:38:54,960 --> 00:39:02,200 where I told myself it's time to whatever, you know, so, um, yeah, really, really great 599 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:03,200 stuff. 600 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:09,360 And so some of this is to build resilience, resilient organizations, resilient people ourselves. 601 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:15,520 It's going to take some really hard work and just realize like you can't always like quantify 602 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:20,920 it because it's not, well, I did this many more pushups or my bench press increased this 603 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:21,920 amount. 604 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,600 It's, it might just be everybody else around. 605 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:25,600 You can see it. 606 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:31,240 And so now if you have that feedback, um, culture in your personal life and your professional 607 00:39:31,240 --> 00:39:36,600 life and they're rewarding you for when you do really good stuff, there you go. 608 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,720 That's how you can quantify and track it, I guess. 609 00:39:39,720 --> 00:39:44,080 And yeah, we'll link to the emergency mind podcast that Dr. Thompson talked about there. 610 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:49,240 It's, uh, just straight fireballs one right after another, um, there. 611 00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:54,440 And so like just such a cool conversation and I've listened to it no less than 10 times. 612 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:55,880 It's really, really cool. 613 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:56,880 Um, there. 614 00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:01,440 And one thing I actually, let's talk about that you, you guys talked over there on that 615 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:05,580 podcast specifically about a term that, um, I wrote down, I actually pulled my truck over 616 00:40:05,580 --> 00:40:08,640 and wrote it down because I knew I would forget. 617 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:13,320 Um, before I realized how good the entire podcast was and it was going to be like on 618 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:18,600 repeat, but service without self-destruction. 619 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:19,600 That is not my term. 620 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:25,520 I just want to say that like that is a mission critical team institute term, right? 621 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:29,400 That Dan and Preston Klein, like they, they have done all the work. 622 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,000 They have done amazing work, right? 623 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:36,200 So anytime you can listen to the machine critical team institute podcasts or go to, 624 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:41,760 you know, like any training that they do, um, or the emergency mind podcast, obviously, 625 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:47,120 um, you're going to hear more and more about that, but they're doing a lot. 626 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,960 That's their term, but it just makes so much sense, right? 627 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:51,320 It makes so much sense. 628 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:56,640 I think, um, where we used to say resilience until like everyone got sick of the word, 629 00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:57,840 like what does it even mean? 630 00:40:57,840 --> 00:40:59,640 And I think this is what it means. 631 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:04,720 It means that you can, you know, all those dreams you had when you were a little kid 632 00:41:04,720 --> 00:41:12,120 about essentially changing the world, saving the world, impacting the world, being a superhero. 633 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:18,280 Um, number one, you may never feel like a superhero, but when you raise your hand to 634 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,800 be in a type of service role, military, right? 635 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:27,680 Law enforcement, fire service, like, um, you are a superhero, like look around you. 636 00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:29,760 Not many people are raising their hands. 637 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:30,760 Okay. 638 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:31,760 So it's already done. 639 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:36,280 You, by raising your hand, you are different. 640 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:40,400 Fundamentally, you're different to say, I will do it. 641 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,240 I just, I know it sounds silly. 642 00:41:42,240 --> 00:41:47,320 It even sounds silly for me saying it, um, but I've told guys that, right? 643 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:53,080 Because sometimes you'll spend your whole life training and you, you're never going to 644 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:58,760 get the opportunity to jump on like out of a helicopter airplane onto the battlefield, 645 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:03,640 just because of world circumstances, like, or the circumstances in your community. 646 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:09,280 Like maybe you don't get the opportunity that in your mind was like the ultimate end all 647 00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:15,840 be all of like service, sacrifice, but like the fact that you raise your hand, the fact 648 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:20,200 that you go to work every day and you have to do all the boring stuff in order for everything 649 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:21,200 to keep going. 650 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:25,600 So all of that is service, all of that is being a superhero. 651 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:30,280 And all we're saying is like that constant sacrifice takes a toll. 652 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:34,600 We can't, um, so it's being quantified, right? 653 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:39,080 In some terrible ways, like you mentioned before we press record with, um, like rates 654 00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:43,720 of cancer, suicide, just like death after service. 655 00:42:43,720 --> 00:42:50,760 Um, and so what self, what service without self-destruction is just like bringing into 656 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:55,760 all the concepts that we're talking about now as early as possible so that we know like 657 00:42:55,760 --> 00:43:00,000 the writing on the wall says this right now and we want to change that. 658 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:01,520 So essentially that's what it means. 659 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:08,040 It just means how do we incorporate into our way of life now early in our service, um, 660 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:15,800 behaviors and mechanisms, structures that allow us to live our dream of trying to impact 661 00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:21,480 a world without destroying ourselves and the people around us. 662 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,400 Yeah, uh, really well stated. 663 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,800 And yes, definitely a term from mission critical teams institute. 664 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:33,080 And if you're not familiar with those amazing individuals, absolutely check out what they're 665 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:38,880 doing and they have really great, uh, usable resources on things like how to conduct after 666 00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:40,400 action reviews. 667 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:46,840 And it doesn't have to be this like pie in the sky, mental hard to attain things. 668 00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:51,960 Definitely usable tools for mission critical, uh, teams institute as well as like in person 669 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:52,960 training. 670 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:53,960 So check those dudes out. 671 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,400 That'll be low, uh, linked in the show notes as well. 672 00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:59,480 Huge fans of what they're doing over there. 673 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:00,480 Absolutely. 674 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:05,400 And I think, you know, we could, we could that really good definition and description 675 00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:06,400 of that. 676 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,840 And really you could replace that service term service without self-destruction. 677 00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:14,440 I could put performance without self-destruction, right? 678 00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:19,920 Or relationships without self-destruction or whatever you want in there, you know? 679 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:24,840 And so I think that that would be kind of a unique thing of we need people to be super 680 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:27,160 high performers in our industries. 681 00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:33,680 And I don't care if you're a realtor or you're a warfighter, we need people to crush it. 682 00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:37,800 And like that's why the industry exists. 683 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:44,560 And so, but we also need to make sure personally, and I think organizationally, we have a duty 684 00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:47,720 to say, okay, that's maybe too much. 685 00:44:47,720 --> 00:44:53,360 Like let's back that off and make sure that we're also providing for the whole human experience. 686 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,480 Because like you said at the very beginning, that's what matters, right? 687 00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:03,960 And so, you know, to be a great mom or a spouse or whatever, at the end of the day, that's 688 00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:04,960 what matters, right? 689 00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:09,840 But the career field that you've chosen as soon as you leave, you probably did some 690 00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:10,840 great stuff. 691 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:14,240 Hopefully, hopefully you left a legacy if that's important to you. 692 00:45:14,240 --> 00:45:17,080 But it's going to keep going without you, you know? 693 00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:22,000 And so those relationships outside of your professional work environment are at the end 694 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,280 of the day, that's truly what matters. 695 00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:28,320 So I think, you know, so we can tie all that back into all the questions I've asked you 696 00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,480 so far of what's the organizational's role. 697 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:34,880 And I don't think a lot of organizations are defining that, you know, they're just like, 698 00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:39,520 well, we have to do this and we have to meet budgets and provide great service to our communities 699 00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:42,000 and blah, blah, blah, blah. 700 00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:46,960 But we also have to provide great service to our internal customers and help them while 701 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,120 they're here and help them while they're transitioning out of here. 702 00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:54,520 Maybe we don't have the resources when they're gone, but we should have set them up. 703 00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:55,520 Yes. 704 00:45:55,520 --> 00:46:01,840 And here's the thing that I see organization, like you said, they have their own goals. 705 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:03,760 Like we need to serve the community. 706 00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:10,560 We need to, you know, A, B and C. But I think what's missing is they see, like, they see 707 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:18,840 this type of effort as addition, in addition to what they're doing. 708 00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:24,480 When the truth of the matter is when this, the effort is put in, anything they're trying 709 00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,800 to do is going to skyrocket. 710 00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:32,920 Like they, if, oh, okay, you want to serve the community, just see how we're going to 711 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,240 serve the community when the culture is healthy, right? 712 00:46:36,240 --> 00:46:42,080 Just see how we're going to serve the community when people are happy to come to work, right? 713 00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:47,520 When they're going the extra mile, when they're leaving, when they're no longer performing 714 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:53,520 well, like just see how we're going to meet your goal in an even bigger and better way. 715 00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:55,400 So the effort isn't additional. 716 00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,200 Like the effort is foundational. 717 00:46:58,200 --> 00:46:59,200 That's brilliant. 718 00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:01,200 That was a brilliant response. 719 00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:02,200 Yeah. 720 00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:03,200 That's great. 721 00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:04,600 Hard to do though, right? 722 00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:06,560 Like we have to, I think, super hard. 723 00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:07,560 Yeah. 724 00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:12,320 You got to put your ego to bed, especially if you're at the tops or middles or bottoms 725 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:19,720 of these organizations, all of us need to eat our ego at some point along the line. 726 00:47:19,720 --> 00:47:26,120 And God forbid we have to be vulnerable throughout to create some positive organizational change, 727 00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:27,120 right? 728 00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:28,120 You will. 729 00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:29,120 You will. 730 00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:30,120 You will have to. 731 00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:34,640 Yeah, vulnerability, in fact, should be part of every culture because that's what's going 732 00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:35,640 to help you grow. 733 00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:36,640 Yeah. 734 00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:37,640 Yeah, indeed. 735 00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:41,120 And you talked about that within accountability answer for sure. 736 00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,000 Vulnerability is foundational. 737 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:47,560 So let's talk about the reality of getting better every day. 738 00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:53,160 From your experience, you've worked with probably some of the highest performing teams on any 739 00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:56,440 quantifiable metric on the planet. 740 00:47:56,440 --> 00:48:02,160 And obviously they're always trying to get better personally and as an organization. 741 00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:05,960 But what's the reality around getting better? 742 00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:06,960 Yeah. 743 00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:14,040 Yeah, I think the reality is that you grow as a person and what you value most if you're 744 00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:17,200 paying attention to that, then that's the stuff that grows, right? 745 00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:21,840 Like what you're spending your time, attention and effort on is going to be the stuff that 746 00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:22,840 grows in your life. 747 00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:26,600 And in other times, that is not what you want growing, but your time, energy and effort are 748 00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:29,960 going towards those things. 749 00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:37,840 When so, for example, like in taking that whole 1% better every day, I don't know, it's been 750 00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:38,840 out there, right? 751 00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:40,400 In the culture, 1% better every day. 752 00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:46,360 Like if I am equating that to how much I can bench press, like very quickly, I'm going 753 00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:50,040 to feel defeated, frustrated. 754 00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:57,000 But if I am first assessing my values and the impact I want to make in the world through 755 00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:07,720 like who I know myself to be, then that translates more into like how my daily behaviors impact 756 00:49:07,720 --> 00:49:09,200 the environment around me. 757 00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:14,840 So I don't really know how to think about that, like 1% better. 758 00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:18,760 I just like it doesn't make any sense to me and I hate to like throw it under the bus 759 00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:21,440 because I think it's really motivating for some people. 760 00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:25,560 I don't know if it's motivating for you and you love it and I just like totally damage 761 00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:26,560 this relationship. 762 00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:35,280 But I think it more about like being curious, being always willing to learn, being open 763 00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:38,160 to feedback and new experiences. 764 00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:43,200 If you are open to feedback, you're going to get better. 765 00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:44,200 Way more than 1%. 766 00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:45,200 Period. 767 00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:46,200 Period. 768 00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:47,200 Yep. 769 00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:50,160 And feedback can come in a lot of different ways, right? 770 00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:55,680 But I think just if you're curious, if you're open to feedback, you're willing to learn 771 00:49:55,680 --> 00:50:01,440 and you're laying that ego aside, usually we're already working with people that are 772 00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:03,200 really hardworking and that are really active. 773 00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:10,040 So like that part really isn't something that is distinct, but it's more about the 774 00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:17,160 people who are just willing to ask the questions, willing to hear the answers, ribbing curious, 775 00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:23,840 and kind of not like I'm the expert, but I'm always a student, you know, type of mentality. 776 00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:25,440 Yeah, it's great. 777 00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:27,840 Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the 1% better every day. 778 00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:30,440 I like that, like the energy behind it. 779 00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:32,440 I understand what they're trying to say. 780 00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:34,440 Yeah, for sure. 781 00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:38,040 But at the end of the day, it's more like you got to do more, you got to do more, you 782 00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:39,040 got to do more. 783 00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:44,200 And for us in the emergency services population, from what I've seen, especially in the last 784 00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:48,800 few years and getting to go through school and learning about these concepts is we are 785 00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:51,240 at a hard stop point. 786 00:50:51,240 --> 00:50:56,240 We are at this massive tipping point and we're seeing it because of retention and recruitment 787 00:50:56,240 --> 00:50:59,240 where people are like, I can't do anymore. 788 00:50:59,240 --> 00:51:04,560 You know, and so we have to actually do less, or focus on foundational principles that we've 789 00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:10,800 never really defined like, you know, how do we treat our internal customer? 790 00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:12,480 How do we actually treat them? 791 00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:16,720 Right, and those things that we've already talked about, and you'll get exponentially 792 00:51:16,720 --> 00:51:21,640 better, it won't even, it won't be 1%, it'll be exponentially higher than that. 793 00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:22,640 For sure. 794 00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:28,480 And I think that that's probably some of the problems that we have is we just continue 795 00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:30,560 to pile more and more on. 796 00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:35,400 You know, we're, everybody's doing more with less, even though the economy has rebounded 797 00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:42,880 after, you know, the 2000 crash, the 2001 crash, we continue to not get those resources 798 00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:44,840 back at least in emergency services. 799 00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:52,280 And so, and continue to say yes and yes and yes or the city councils or whatever, boards 800 00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:57,760 are saying you will do this and we don't feel like we have a choice, but we're at that tipping 801 00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:02,200 point where we have, not only do we have a choice, like the choice is being made for 802 00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:09,000 us, and it's time for us to really start to assess and tapping into people like you, 803 00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:12,080 and a cool thing on operational psychologists, right? 804 00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:15,000 Like I didn't really know very much about that until very recently. 805 00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:22,960 So very, very cool and exciting new opportunities to not just be all like we, we, we, we're 806 00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:23,960 getting soft. 807 00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:25,320 No, that's not what we're talking about at all. 808 00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:27,640 We're actually talking about providing a higher level of service. 809 00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:30,840 It's just way more focused. 810 00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:31,840 You got it. 811 00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:34,480 So, fantastic stuff. 812 00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:38,720 Really appreciate you taking the time and energy for the podcast here. 813 00:52:38,720 --> 00:52:43,280 How can people find you if you're, if you're open for people reaching out to you and having 814 00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:45,160 a further conversation? 815 00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,120 Yeah, absolutely. 816 00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:48,520 I would love it. 817 00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:51,400 And the easiest way to find me is probably just on LinkedIn. 818 00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:53,480 LinkedIn, cool. 819 00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:56,560 And we will link that to the show notes as well. 820 00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:58,240 And you have a podcast too, right? 821 00:52:58,240 --> 00:53:01,080 What's the name of your podcast? 822 00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:02,440 It's called In the Name of Service. 823 00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:03,440 Yeah. 824 00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:09,200 It's just, you know, the basic stories that people have about their own kind of lives and 825 00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:12,440 careers in, in fields of service. 826 00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:19,000 And the hope were those, they're short interviews, but, you know, they don't give all the details. 827 00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:24,840 The hope is just to, to catalyze, you know, everyone listening to continue serving in 828 00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:31,040 their own unique way, knowing that it doesn't take any kind of, there's no required special 829 00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:35,520 training or background or pedigree to make a difference in the world. 830 00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:36,800 So that's great. 831 00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:40,200 So yeah, if you're looking for mentorship and you're, maybe you're in an environment 832 00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:45,800 where you're trying to create change and you're kind of on an island by yourself or you're, 833 00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:47,520 you're changing yourself, right? 834 00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:51,960 Like in the name of service podcast is a great way to get some mentorship along the way and 835 00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:58,000 hear other people's stories and realize you're not alone in all of this thing, right? 836 00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:02,480 Whether you're a high performer or you're going to be one. 837 00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:03,880 That's a great, great resource. 838 00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:05,680 So Dr. Thompson's just being humble here. 839 00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:09,160 So I'll talk that thing up a little bit. 840 00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:12,920 So thank you very much for listening to the firefighter craftsmanship podcast. 841 00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:15,240 Don't forget to rate, review and follow the show. 842 00:54:15,240 --> 00:54:21,320 We drop one of these episodes every Wednesday and we really appreciate everybody sharing 843 00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:22,320 this. 844 00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:26,680 I hope that you share this one and get Dr. Thompson some good exposure so she can see 845 00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:31,160 external validation as to the amazing work that she's doing out there. 846 00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:35,240 Really on behalf of all of us dealing with the service members for the United States. 847 00:54:35,240 --> 00:55:00,040 So everybody out there, stay smart.