Welcome to Call of Your Soul.
Welcome back to Call of Your Soul.
This is episode 2 with Dan Ellis and Amy Piper and today we're going to be talking about
impads and emotions.
And before we get started we're going to ease our way into our content for today so if you're
in a place to do so I invite you to take a seat and close the eyes.
In feeling connect to your body.
Feel the sensations through your body.
Allowing any thoughts to pass through.
And then connecting to your soul, your spirit guides, everything on the etheric level.
And then inviting a deep breath in from the belly.
Little pause at the top and release.
And first we welcome in Amy.
Amy how are we feeling this morning?
Great, I'm excited to be here.
So impads and emotions.
So first we talked about really making this definition clear about what we mean because
especially with something that has a lot of aspects of subtle sense awareness and potentially
some people put in interpretations that have other dynamics like information through the
mind or through the brain.
We just want to get clear on what it is we mean when we say empath.
So would you maybe just want to kind of go through a quick definition of what we're referencing?
Yeah, actually I think you had a great definition of that.
Dan why don't you offer that?
So what we had talked about is an empath is someone who is sensitive to the sensations
and emotions of other beings.
We see empathic ability as one of many of the subtle sense awareness channels of one
person's being.
In our view the mental or the cognitive exchange happens on a different level than what we
would consider empathic.
And there is a book out there that's pretty widespread about empaths by Judith Orlov who's
a psychiatrist.
It's called the empath survival guide and I just wanted to touch on this definition
that she had put in the book and kind of differentiate from where our interpretation comes in.
So in the first sentence of her definition it says, empaths have an extremely reactive
neurological system.
And I think Amy you would agree, in our view we wouldn't necessarily say every empath is
reactive in terms of their neurological system.
That may be someone who doesn't have quite enough training yet and is in a reactive state.
So someone who has training I think would take a moment and pause and then respond and
be at choice.
I think reactive denotes someone who's really not at choice in terms of the reaction that
they have with the person in front of them.
Would you agree with that?
Yeah, I would and I also would just say that sometimes we have a reaction first and then
we take the pause because the reaction is part of the nervous system that just reacts
without any conscious thought.
So we have a reaction.
And then when we're trained then we pause, we take a breath, we notice and then we can
respond.
Right.
So I think it's important to distinguish that there is, it doesn't necessarily mean that
you have no choice to respond in reactive by being an empath.
And then she expands by saying we don't have the same filters that other people do to block
out stimulation.
As a consequence we absorb into our own bodies both the positive and the stressful energies
around us.
So again I think it's kind of the same principle.
This is maybe we can touch on the skin that's necessary for an empath to be comfortable
in the world and again being at choice.
And this is kind of the other way instead of being at choice in the output and how we
respond but being at choice with the input and what we take in and what we receive.
Yeah.
And you know not having read Judith's book, I mean I can't really comment as much on what
she said.
I think that you said there was some really good stuff in there.
But it's also useful to distinguish like our and how we're thinking about it from her terms
and how she's thinking about it because a lot of people are going to have already read
the book and a lot of you might be interested in reading it.
It seems like it's a very useful, it has some really useful stuff in it.
Right.
And then one other thing I'd like to bring up and then we can put away the definitions
for now is this is just from WebMD and so kind of a more scientific understanding.
They're saying an empath is an individual who feels more empathy than the average human.
Empaths are exceptionally sensitive to the emotions and frame of mind of nearby individuals.
Empathy is a natural state that enables a person to build an emotional connection through cognition
with other individuals.
So where I think we would definitely agree with empaths being exceptionally sensitive
to the emotions, but where we may differ slightly is in terms of the cognitive when they say
frame of mind.
But I think by and large we're speaking to kind of the same phenomenon.
Yeah, I think so.
And there are also some of us talk about what it is to be a cognitive empath.
And that actually means that you are sensitive to the emotions of other people, but you may
not really have the secondary piece of empathic care, like I care about this person's emotions.
So there may be a little crossover there in the sense that yes, I have a strong sense
of what other people are feeling.
I don't really feel a sense of caring about it.
And of course, when that happens, that can be used for positive purposes and it can be
used misused to manipulate people for your own gain.
Just like any gift or power can be used well or misused.
Right.
So not going too much into the psychology side, but would that tend to be a definition
of someone who has a disorder who maybe feels what other people feel but doesn't care?
Or is that not necessarily the case?
Well, that's a great question, Dan, because it is true that sometimes people who have
a disorder in which they're not connected to their caring side have this cognitive empathy
and abuse it.
But a lot of people also may have cognitive empathy in that they understand the feelings
and needs of other people and they use it for positive purposes such as, I don't know,
it's what comes to my mind is marketing and sales, which again can be misused or used
to benefit people.
Right.
But if I have a clear understanding of other people's emotions and needs, then it makes
me better able to help them understand why this is a good product for them, why this
will help them.
So that would just be one example of how that could be used in a really positive way rather
than a negative way.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, no, that definitely makes sense.
And so in your view, does it seem like, because we kind of come up with a word, a term like
empath, and then we describe it and with that definition it kind of makes it seem like there's
people that are that and people that aren't.
But is it potentially more something like a spectrum of varying sensitivity?
So there's just people that are very, very highly in tune and very sensitive and feel
what's like most of everything what's going on with other people.
And then there's people that just feel much less.
Or is it kind of more like, yeah, there really is a group of people and we call them empaths
that are very sensitive.
And there's some people that may have really no kind of radar on the sensations and emotions
happening in other people.
Yeah, I would say that both are true.
I mean, I think that like any other intuitive ability, we have the capacity, all of us,
just like math or music too, we all have some degree, we can mostly add one plus one, we
can appreciate music perhaps.
So we all have a certain ability, but our natural talent is different.
It's unique from person to person.
How we like to apply that talent is different.
And whether we're even interested in developing it is different.
Also I would just say that some of us can become over entangled in the empathic skill.
And that's for reasons that we can talk about later in this podcast.
Other people may shut down to varying degrees to their skill to protect themselves from
being overwhelmed.
So becoming a mature empath really goes far beyond protecting yourself and moves into
learning how to understand and develop your talent and to align it with what's important
to you.
You have to your point, Dan, we have a lot of choices in how we engage and how much we
engage and what it's aligned with.
Right.
And that kind of brings us to the value of having empathic skill.
When you brought up the example of someone who does sales, being able to kind of feel
how engaged someone is interested and kind of playing on, not playing on, but playing
with, not playing with, but understanding the emotions of the other people.
And then choosing how they're going to interact accordingly.
Sales is a function of every business.
I think this is also true of just being a good friend, being a good colleague, being
a good member of the community is having the empathic skill to tune in to what other people
are feeling and to enable yourself to be of greater support for their needs, to be aware
of their needs and to be able to help them meet those.
So maybe let's kind of segue to the value and kind of expand upon the different values
of having and cultivating the empathic skill.
Yeah.
I mean, I would say it's especially beneficial in professional areas like counseling, medicine
and the healing arts.
It's a wonderful application, as you said, to be a valuable part of a community.
And a wonderful application is having awareness of the feelings and needs of our children
or of other vulnerable people in our world and in our environment, because then we're
more adept at offering wise and caring assistance.
Yeah.
And that kind of makes me think like, it almost seems necessary if you're in a profession
such as counseling.
Would it be possible, do you think, to be like a successful and good counselor, but
not really being aware and in tune with the sensation and emotions of the person you're
working with?
I would think that that would be difficult.
And there may be approaches there.
You learn a certain set of skills that you can apply and you just apply them kind of
in a cognitive or flat way.
But I mean, even cognitive therapy, the empathic skill can come into that.
I'm not saying it can't.
So I really don't know the answer to that.
It seems to me that that would be a tough thing to do.
But at the same time, there may be skill sets and approaches that work without a large amount
of empathic ability.
Yeah, I know there's, I think it's applied behavioral analysis with kids that have autism.
And it's a very structured, regimented type approach.
And I think it kind of, it has its own merit for using that approach in that it's very
consistent.
So that seems to kind of not really have a need for empathic skill and make choices according
to the emotions of the child that you're working with.
But it has its own merits and its own right.
And I guess there may be certain forms of psychiatry where it needs to be a little bit
more objective in a sense, to not let someone's own interpretation influence too greatly the
decisions that they make for how they care for the other person.
But yeah, I think that kind of leads us naturally into some of the challenges that are brought
up with being empathic and being sensitive to the emotions of others.
I guess it would be maybe a good place to start with some of the main challenges that
you see in your work.
Yeah, I think it's useful to mention that as we go into the challenges that empathic
awareness can extend to, you may be picking up on things from other individuals or from
groups of individuals, I would call that the collective emotional vibration.
You may also even be picking up on vibrations from animals, even plants and spaces.
Like there can be a lingering emotional vibration in a specific area, a specific location.
Like if you ever walked into a room and you just went and maybe there's nobody even in
the room, but you just like stopped and went, whoa, you know, it feels like there's a lot
of something going on in here and it feels, you know, intense.
And that's often because, you know, something intense has taken place between people in
that space and it might not have gotten resolved and the energy hasn't been cleared.
And some of us are even attuned to the planet as a whole.
So you know, if we don't understand our gift, then you can imagine how being immersed in
vibrational fields when we don't really understand how that's affecting us.
That can be really a challenge for anybody, but especially for people who are highly empathic
and attuned to certain kinds of fields of emotional energy.
Yeah.
So it's like there's so many layers in which we could have potential stimuli come into
our field, right?
With the location that we're in, the physical space, animals, you know, things that were
left over from people being there before, the people that are currently in here, different
collectives of people and the planet as a whole.
So that's quite a lot of potential stimuli for us to sift through and process in real
time.
So it seems like a natural challenge is how do we avoid becoming overwhelmed?
And I think this is a big part of the skill set of developing the empathic skin and, you
know, having some kind of layers of choice and protection, like a membrane of what we
allow to let in and how much it influences us.
Yeah, for sure.
That is for sure one of the primary challenges is not becoming overwhelmed.
And what I find with a lot of people is that we have chosen, you know, consciously or unconsciously,
like we get overwhelmed and so we kind of shut down, like we create sort of a wall.
But then we feel maybe lonely, we're used to more emotional contact, so we feel isolated.
And then we want to open back up, but then we open back up and get overwhelmed.
So there's this kind of like, you know, open, like fully opening and fully closing.
And neither is really satisfying.
And so to what you said about a skin, that's what we'd like to do is create a kind of a
skin.
And there are, you know, different ways to think about doing that.
I mean, I think that there are so many ways we might touch on a few later today about,
you know, some ways that you can try out and see what might work out for you.
Yeah, it seems like an absolutely essential tool, as there's, you know, potentially a
lot of various stimuli coming in.
And this is where I'd kind of written down something that I'd noticed with Impazin and
being in relationship with other people.
As someone who's sensitive and not only feels the emotions and sensitivities or sensations
of others, but when you care, it can be kind of like this sense of duty and responsibility
to want to support the other person.
And the phrase I hear a lot is, you know, taking on the emotions of others, you know,
feeling responsible for the feelings and the happiness of another person.
And I just kind of written down, I call that the empath trap.
And so I just wondered if you want to just kind of expand on, you know, this kind of
common challenge, I think that comes up for sensitive people, especially when it's people
that you're close to and that you really love.
Yeah, I love that phrase, the empath trap.
That's really great.
That's a really great way of clarifying that.
So yeah, when you're in the empath trap, and I think there's a few different ones, like
you can just feel completely overwhelmed by emotion, unable to fight your way out.
I mean, like you're in a wet paper bag and it's just like, I can't get out.
I could just feel this feeling and, you know, it just kind of takes over everything.
And you might notice that especially when you're around a person who's experiencing intense
emotion and you just get in the feeling.
And what you were saying, Dan, that it becomes almost a compulsive need to repair their pain.
And yeah, it's caring on one hand, but on another hand, it's like, you want to ask yourself,
why do I feel this need to repair this person's pain?
And there can be different reasons.
And maybe a trauma response, if we have been in our, especially in our years of developing
our nervous system and growing up, if we've been with someone who was dangerous emotionally
or physically felt dangerous to us, then we might have started to hone in and really watch
and pay attention in a hyper-vigilant way to, you know, looking for scanning the environment,
scanning that person for signs of danger.
And if that's the case, in order to keep ourselves safe.
And so that can create a compulsive need to make sure that everybody around you is okay.
Like, you know, because it gets extended to other people who are not dangerous, you know,
that's just something that got into our nervous system.
And now we're carrying it forward and extending it to other people.
You know, that's one thing that can happen.
Also if we have kind of over identified with another person, maybe a parent or caregiver
or someone else, that we never really differentiated ourselves from other people.
And so again, there's kind of a need to be paying attention to the people around you
to make sure they're okay.
And you know, how this can look sometimes is, you know, imagine that you are living
with other people, maybe it's a spouse, children, or, you know, just a friend.
And when they come home and they're, you know, in an intense mood of some kind, that there's
this feeling on your part, this drive to take care of their mood somehow.
Maybe you feel like I've got to ask them, you know, I've got to make sure that they're
okay.
I've got to help them get to a different place.
Or, you know, maybe if I can make them comfortable, you know, just various ways that we might.
And caring is from this.
I mean, that is a caring, but it's a compulsive kind of caring.
And when we're in a compulsive caring, we may not really be doing what's helpful for
the other person.
We might even be unconsciously, inadvertently enabling this other person in some way so
that it might relieve them, but it might not actually help them to grow and take responsibility
for their own feelings and needs.
And it most certainly becomes exhausting to ourselves.
And ultimately, when, you know, we're in that dynamic, it can be really hard.
A lot of times people tell me, gosh, I don't really know what I feel.
I don't know what I need.
Haven't really learned to identify our own feelings and needs because we haven't differentiated
them from the feelings and needs of other people.
And there can be a lot of different kinds of challenges that come out of that.
So I think that when you, if you notice things like that, then it's time to peek under the
cover and see what's up with you.
Yeah.
And that brings up a good question.
And maybe this is something that's not an easy question to answer and it's not, you
know, doesn't have like a very straightforward answer.
But what would be your guidance on, let's say I'm at, I'm home and then my spouse comes
in and you know, there's like a grief and a sadness that I can feel, or maybe there's,
you know, a fiery frustration.
How do I differentiate, or let's say even more difficult in a room of people, and there
may be a few different emotions that I feel as a result of being in the shared space with
other people, how am I able to differentiate what is coming into me through them and what
is of my own?
Yeah, I think the first step is always just noticing that, hey, there seems to be something
amiss here.
I'm either feeling overwhelmed by emotion, or I seem to be feeling things that I'm not
sure they're mine.
Like I'm just not even, I have no reason to feel these things and yet I'm having these
feelings.
Or, yeah, these are feelings that I'm having, but they're much bigger than I think my own
feelings are.
So the first thing is just to notice that.
And once you notice that, then you can take that pause that we talked about earlier.
And you know, you might take a deep breath, kind of pull in your antenna.
Just imagine that you have antenna out into the world because you do.
And just imagine that you're pulling them into yourself, into your own energy field.
And then you can imagine that these are all things that you can do one by one as steps,
or you can just try out one thing, or, you know, but then you can imagine yourself inside
of a sphere, which is your energy field, right?
It's kind of an oval.
And you can imagine it as if you're familiar with the nice soft glow of a salt lamp.
And just imagine yourself inside that salt lamp.
And that's you.
And the energies and emotions of people who are outside of that lamp can't really come
in.
They can perhaps touch the edges, but they can't come in.
Or you could imagine it as a crystal sphere, if you like that better, whatever kind of
crystal you like.
You can imagine it as a drop of, you know, a rainbow.
And so you're just inside of that and that kind of a skin, it's your place.
It's your space.
It's your home, your energy field.
And it belongs to you.
And I also think it's useful to clarify that we say we're taking on the emotions of others
and it does, in a sense, that's true.
But what might be more true is that someone's vibrational emotion touches on our energy
field and starts inviting it in that way.
And so there's a tendency for us to resonate with that.
And here's an important key is that it's really important to recognize the two different ways
of resonating.
I can resonate in such a way that I start to actually allow my full vibration to become
what touched on my field.
Or I can notice it and like, oh, that's information.
Yeah, interesting.
And that's a high level skill.
So it's not something that I expect an untrained person to automatically just understand, although
you might.
But it's a very essential thing to learn.
So as a healer and guide, I myself, you know, am in this state all the time so that I am
receiving information from the person I'm working with and noticing what they will because
yes, I actually feel that.
But I notice that it's a feeling and I can tell that it's not mine.
Now there are times when I'm like, huh, I, I think that I feel this too.
And then, and then I don't have to differentiate.
I can just say, Oh, you know what?
I think this person is feeling something kind of similar to what I feel.
I really get that.
But I'm not going to allow it to amplify that vibrate my field so that I'm overwhelmed.
I'm still a discrete individuated person inside of my own energy field, even though I'm allowing
someone else's energy to influence mine, at least for a moment.
Does that make sense?
Does that seem clear?
Yeah, it does.
And it brings up a question and I notice this, this dynamic that emerges with sensitive people,
there tends to be like a blame dynamic, right?
So like, let's say someone else is going through something that's emotionally heavy and then
they're like, Oh my gosh, this is so much and it's because I'm around this person.
But I think there's an important distinction that you made where yes, we feel something,
an emotion of someone else, but then there's a point of choice, do we let it amplify within
our own field and let that become overwhelming to us?
And I think that's an important distinction to make because I think to, you know, to blame
others for what gets charged and resonated and amplified in your own field is maybe a
bit misguided.
And I think it's important to take responsibility for what we allow to be amplified in our own
field if we can be at choice.
Yeah, 100%.
And it's also okay to notice like, you know, I really don't think that this is all mine
and yet I'm feeling it as if it's all mine and it's a problem.
So this is my problem.
You know, I'm coming to understand that just because this person's vibration is overwhelming
mine, that's actually my thing to deal with.
And so I need and want to learn how to change that, how to grow and evolve so that I don't
have to get overwhelmed.
And the closer you are to someone, the more challenging that can be.
I understand that, you know, with parents and children, that can be overwhelming.
So and also I just want to clarify, we're not talking about here, you know, being in
an abusive relationship, because if you're in an abusive relationship, then there's a
whole other set of things that need to be addressed, right?
And if you're in an abusive relationship and you're an empath, then you probably are getting
really overwhelmed.
You're probably very hyper vigilantly paying attention to the emotional state of the other
person.
You know, looking out for cues that they're getting triggered because they come back and
cause you harm and maybe cause harm to other people in your environment.
So I just want to clarify that, you know, there's a distinction between a relationship
that's fundamentally healthy, you know, may have some challenges involved and one that's
fundamentally abusive.
Yeah, that's an important distinction.
And those are really tricky and subtle dynamics, you know, because I feel like, and, you know,
I'd love to know your thoughts on this.
I think sometimes when we experience really heavy emotions, it's really hard to see things
clearly for what they are, especially when it comes to relational dynamics.
And so I think that's, you know, sometimes it can be really helpful to have the perspective
of, you know, a third party type person, you know, friend, colleague, therapist, et cetera,
because it's really hard to get a sense of the dynamics and kind of see what's happening
when your emotions and relationship to that person are so strong.
Yeah, it really is.
And it's important to, you know, when you turn to that third person, you know, is this
someone who is able to, a lot of times what we have learned to do is to try to fix someone
else's problem or we identify with their problem and then we kind of jump on board with their
point of view.
So if a friend comes to me and they're frustrated with, you know, their spouse, say, and, you
know, am I going to jump on board with them and say, yeah, you know, that spouse shouldn't
have done that.
I think, am I going to defend the spouse in order to try to fix the situation and calm
it down because it's hard for me to handle that level of emotion that's being brought
into my environment and I want to feel peace.
So the only way I know to feel peace and not get overwhelmed by emotion is to have this
other person, you know, fix their problem.
There's things that we're taught to do that aren't really very, so when we're the person
reaching out to a third party to give us some balanced feedback, then, you know, we want
to learn to identify, and this may be a whole podcast, Dan, that we want to do.
How do you identify someone who's a good party for you to turn to for this kind of feedback?
Because it's a high level skill, you know, it really is a high level skill that's not
taught in our culture very frequently to learn how to be present with another person and
their emotions and their needs and to simply stay present and offer reflection, offer validation
for their perspective without fully buying into it and helping that person to come to
what's true for them.
That's a very high level skill that is not taught a lot in our culture and there are
definitely some really beautiful places to learn that skill, but we have to kind of have
it slotted out unless we're one of those lucky people who had it modeled for us as we were
growing up.
Which is probably very few and far between of us.
Yeah, it seems like it is.
It does seem like that.
For some reason, that's just not something that our culture has prioritized.
Right.
And this brings up another element that I just want to shed a little bit more light
on with this dynamic of the relational aspects of someone going through something difficult.
It seems like, let's say for example, my spouse is going through something difficult and I
have this yearning to want to fix it or to want to get involved.
It really kind of seems like from my own needs of whether it's being needed or it's not having
an overwhelming emotional situation to have to then deal with, it's like I want to find
the quickest way to get this to settle down and not be like a fire to have to put out.
It kind of takes the guise of, oh, this person, I'm going to take on the emotions of this
other person so they feel better.
But really it kind of seems at the root of it to be predicated on what would be my own
needs to be needed or for it to not be a big emotional outburst.
Yeah, and I'm so glad you mentioned that too about needing to be needed because that's
such an important thing for many of us as empath.
And I'll come back to your question, but I just want to amplify a little bit of what
you said because it's so common for us to really enjoy being needed.
And that's a natural need that human beings have, to be valued, to be needed.
And so to acknowledge, oh, I have a need to be needed and then go from there.
And this is something we can touch on again is how do I distinguish then what my actions
are?
So like in the example that you gave, I would refer someone to nonviolent communication
is a really beautiful approach designed by Marshall Rosenberg.
He has some books.
I think the first one is actually called nonviolent communication, which is a beautiful way, first
of starting out how you communicate with yourself and then how you communicate with other people.
And so it touches on this very thing.
So like, okay, someone comes home.
I'm noticing that my partner is feeling out of sorts.
Is it something that I feel up to and able to inquire into in that moment?
If so, how much do I get involved?
Do I just say, hey, I noticed that you seem to be feeling kind of out of sort.
Sorry about that.
I also am a little bit exhausted.
I need to go take a shower.
Let's check in later.
That would be one avenue.
The other is just checking in.
Hey, I noticed that you seem to be feeling out of sorts.
Am I right?
Is it something you want to talk about and proceed from there?
And then learning the skill set, practicing the skill set for how do I listen and show
care and help this person without letting my need become dominant.
Of course, your needs are going to be in there, but how am I going to respond in such a way
that doesn't allow my need to be the dominant thing?
Because that's not going to really truly help the other person.
Oh, and let me go back to NVC.
I'm sorry.
I didn't want to forget.
Yeah.
About NVC or nonviolent communication.
There's also something called mindful compassionate dialogue that is very similar to NVC.
Lachelle Shardlow has some beautiful work on that.
It's called Wise Heart.
You can find that online.
She has a whole community.
She has a lot of goals and she has things to... I think she does some private work
or she does group work.
That's a really beautiful way to look into this particular technique.
Also there's the nonviolent communication or NVC academy, which you can find online
that offers a lot of things and helps you to connect with people who teach this framework.
I'm also adept in this as well as are many other therapists and counselors and some healers.
That may be something that you'd like to look into if this seems to be a challenge.
This is something that I've struggled with myself.
When someone's in a feeling of a very strong emotion, it's in a tough place.
What you say and how you say it is so crucial to how that exchange is going to go and how
you support that other person.
It can just be the slight tone of your voice that takes a sense like you don't care or
that you're impatient.
It's so crucial just the exact words that you say because when someone's in a tough
spot and they're sensitive, every word that you say is taken with so much gravity.
I think having a sense of training and some tools to be able to work with so that your
tone and your words can be received in a very compassionate way and reflect the care that
you exhibit for that other person.
Yeah, I mean 100% the tone, the posture, the facial expression, the words, all of these
things can be triggers for the other person.
You may or may not know that because we don't know the triggers of other people.
So it can get really entangled really fast and it has been said that it's the primary
occasion of how an interaction will turn out is how it is approached initially.
So I think you're touching on something really important there, Dan.
Yeah, and then there's one more thing that I wanted to share and I found this really
important.
There's some physicians that had spent many years in the mental health field and they
found these common traits, especially with chronic illnesses and even like autoimmune
type of illnesses associated with suppression and repression of the self.
And these are things that I commonly also see with people that are very sensitive and
empathic.
I just wondered if you had seen this as well.
So there's five common traits that they see, an automatic and compulsive concern for the
emotional needs of others while ignoring one's own.
So I think we've touched on that.
A rigid identification with social role, duty and responsibility.
That seems like almost every mom.
Overdriven externally focused multitasking based on the conviction that one must justify
one's existence by doing and giving.
Repression of healthy, self-protective aggression, anger, and harboring compulsively and acting
out of two beliefs.
The first is I am responsible for how other people feel and I must never disappoint anyone.
Yeah that's well written, well spoken and certainly speaks to a lot of challenges that
we face.
And I just want to comment that when we're talking about these relational dynamics, these
are relational dynamics that can be true for anyone but I think they're just amplified
for the empath.
And so I think it might be useful to kind of touch on for a minute like what's it like
to be in an intimate relationship with an empath.
Maybe both people are empaths or maybe just one person is an empath.
So the beauty of that is the level of care that can genuinely be offered is so lovely
and so wonderful to be on the receiving end of that kind of care.
And for some of the reasons that Dan just outlined, it can also become a challenge not
only to the empath but to the partner of the empath.
If I feel compulsively the need to be helpful in giving, then it seems like, well great,
somebody's going to be helpful in giving all the time.
But it may be very difficult for them to have their offer refused or rejected as they might
feel it, especially if that person has been traumatized in some way.
So there are some just absolute beautiful things about being in a relationship with
an empath and some absolutely challenging things about that.
And I just think that it's really important to be willing to learn about those things
because if you are the partner of an empath and not an empath yourself, then it's a lovely
gesture to learn more about them.
And I think that it would help you to understand them because I can guarantee you that they're
trying to understand you.
Absolutely, they are.
I can comment on that from personal experience because my partner is also very sensitive
and empathic.
And there's the, I don't want to say double-edged sword because that sounds negative, but there's
the two sides of the coin where we are always sensitive to what's going on in the other
person.
So in one sense, there's not often a misunderstanding about how the other person feels, which is
wonderful because that can be a great source of conflict.
Like you said, in someone not being able to observe and understand what someone else is
going through, and maybe of course not the content, but at least the emotional state.
With that said, it's kind of like there's nowhere to hide.
The big light is shined on everything that happens.
And a quick little aside of this, one time she was upset about something and she came
down the stairs and she was walking towards me and I just saw her face and then I was
just like, oh man.
I just looked up and said, hey, what's wrong?
And then she was like, whoa, I hadn't even really processed what it was that was going
on and I could already recognize it and see it in her face and her body and her energy
field before she really could have a sense of what it was and actually sit down and talk
about it.
So it's wonderful in that way, but also the intensity is really felt on both sides.
And so this is also a dynamic and maybe this is something that we could expand on Amy where,
let's say for example, I'm going through something that's really tough.
And actually I'll give in the opposite direction because that's the way it's happened more.
She's going through something, but I don't feel like I'm in a place to really be able
to support her without being non-judgmental, without enabling, without these other dynamics
that are unsupportive to both of us, recognizing the limitations of my own self and knowing
what my own needs are.
And so there's someone who needs support and needs something, but that the other person
really isn't in a place to give and you're both really sensitive.
And so that kind of, this unmet need can be a source of tension and potential issue to
have to work through.
Yeah, thanks for clarifying that because that's, yeah, there's an intensity.
There can be an intensity that comes there.
And if both people are feeling off balanced in a given moment and both people are in paths,
yeah, that can be quite an emotional challenge.
So giving each other space, whether that means psychological space, physical space, sometimes
becomes important and recognizing, hey, I need space, I do care, but I'm not able to
care well at this moment.
I will come back when I'm able to care better.
And the other thing that what you said brought to my mind is that sometimes as empaths, we're
so used to picking up on the emotional climate of other people.
And we think we're right.
We think that we're interpreting correctly.
And we probably are a big portion of the time, but I feel like it's really important to be
able to say, I might be wrong.
I could be wrong.
It seems to me that you are feeling angry.
I noticed that from your tone of voice and the expression on your face.
If that other person is saying, I'm not angry, maybe they're saying it that way.
Well, they don't know that yet.
Or maybe they're really not angry and they're saying, I'm not angry.
I don't know why you think that.
And it's like, oh yeah, I could be wrong.
And even if that person seems to still be exhibiting that they're angry or upset that,
you know, oh, okay.
You know, you can just accept, you don't have to argue your point.
It's how important is it that you're right about this because it's the other person's
energy field.
It's their climate.
So these are some of the things that we learn as we walk through our empathic evolution
and development.
And it's important for me, oh, okay.
I'm noticing that that tone of voice or that facial expression triggered me.
Now I'm feeling angry or scared or hurt.
I'll go take care of myself.
If I want to be involved in healing, then let me go heal myself and take care of my
own emotional environment.
And this person is really responsible for their own, even though, yeah, I'd like to
be able to help, but maybe I can't.
So there's two things.
One is I might be wrong and two is I may not be able to help.
That's tough to swallow for a lot of empath.
Yeah.
But it's essential.
It is.
And when you brought up the point about being right, I just wanted to make a note about
this.
There's a comedian, Mike Berbiglia, that has a funny bit in his standup about this really
tough lesson that he learned with his wife.
And I think many people, especially if you're in relationship with an empath, that is one
of the common pitfalls is thinking that this interchange between you is like an argument
that you want to win and the important part is to be right or to prove that you're right.
And when it comes to emotions, it's like there is no right and wrong.
There really isn't.
It's just honoring what the other person feels.
And I think surrendering that sense of wanting to be right and get the upper hand in an argument
is really a slippery slope and can cause a lot of frustration because the other person
is going to feel like you aren't in tune with them and it may give off the sense that you
don't care.
So I think that's an important thing to really look at and for yourself investigate whether
that's worth keeping, especially when the emotions are very high in a given time.
Yeah, absolutely.
And to that point, some of the things that some of the ways that we can react is to tell
people if we get uncomfortable or especially if we're feeling the need to be right is we're
telling that person, well, you're overreacting.
You shouldn't feel that way.
Here's a better way to handle that.
Or you're just interpreting wrong.
And none of those things will create closeness in the relationship.
They will probably trigger either inflammation.
Someone may shut down.
Someone may become more invasive and needy because they're needing to fix the problem
or none of those things are going to lead toward more connection and more fulfillment
in the relationship.
So again, these are just things that it's good to recognize and then be willing to take
a deeper dive into that perhaps.
And especially if I'm an empath or especially if I'm with an empath, then these are really
even more important things for me to begin learning about.
Yeah, 100%.
And there's this quote that I found from Brene Brown.
And if I had to kind of sum it up in one sentence, I would take this from her in this dynamic
and the question of how do I support the other person?
Because it seems like what I say doesn't seem to help and just continues triggering.
And then maybe this can kind of lead us into maybe a quick intro about healing presence.
She says, empathy is simply listening, holding space without withholding judgment, emotionally
connecting and communicating that incredibly healing message of you're not alone.
Yeah, really beautiful.
I remember a group that I did some workshops with.
I mean, I was one of the participants at this time.
And I remember that the leader of the workshop, one of the things that she would say when
one person was talking about something that was painful for them, that she would say,
you may not have had this kind of situation before, or you may feel like that she or he
is overreacting or whatever.
But ask yourself, have I ever felt this emotion before?
And I thought that was a really helpful, like have I ever felt sadness?
Have I ever felt grief or loss?
Have I ever felt anger?
Have I ever felt rage?
Have I ever felt any of whatever?
Have I ever felt that some of my needs were unmet?
Have I ever felt that I needed more caring, more connection, more space, more individuation?
Have I ever had these needs?
Have I ever had these feelings?
And that's a way to identify with the other person.
Yeah, you're not alone.
I don't know what it's like to feel what you're feeling exactly, but I do know what it's like
to feel grief.
And you know, that's something that you can, if that's a tool that helps you, it may be
a helpful tool when relating to your friend or your spouse or your child.
I think that's a great tool because I think all of us, especially, you know, once you're
into adulthood, you've had several iterations of probably every major emotion, right?
If you're really honest with yourself.
And so that's a great question in that moment.
All right, I'm seeing that my friend, my partner, my child is feeling this.
And then have I felt that before myself?
And then maybe sit with, all right, what did that feel like?
You know, how did I respond?
What kind of support did I need?
What kind of support did I get?
And then what kind of support can I give?
And with this person that I love and what they're going through and maybe try to get
a sense of what their needs are and support that.
I think that's a great tool.
Yeah.
And it's equally important to, you know, when we get caught up in emotion, sometimes we
forget that the emotion is a signal of something.
The emotional signaling is signaling that something is amiss or it's signaling that,
hey, everything is going great.
So like if I'm feeling happy and overjoyed and connected, you know, it's like, yeah,
my needs are being met.
Things are going well.
If I'm feeling angry or frustrated or sad, then hey, something's amiss.
And so it sort of is a signal to begin a process of asking, what am I missing?
And how can I get that need met?
And when we do that well within ourselves, then we can communicate.
We have a better chance of communicating that to our partner in a useful way.
And again, I'm going to refer you back to nonviolent communication and mindful compassionate
dialogue, which do a great job of helping us understand how to do this in ourselves
and how to work with another person on this.
And to bring it back to the empath, I just want to say this is one of the beautiful things
is when an empath learns to recognize that the emotions that he or she is feeling and
experiencing that have sourced partly or fully in another person or another place or animal
or whatever, then we have the opportunity to ask ourselves, what's the need that's
being signaled here?
Not how can I fix this, which is may sound similar, but it's actually, there's a first
step that's like, what is the need?
I wonder what the need is that's being signaled.
And you may not know, but you can take some guesses and ask.
You can ask the other person, you know, what do you need?
That's sometimes a question that someone who's in a lot of pain needs to be asked.
They may need to be asking themselves yet and they haven't done it yet.
So what do you need may trigger that person.
Gosh, I don't know.
I'm not sure what I need.
And for them, if they take that next step, if we take that next step of continuing to
seek out what is the need that's not being met, then I have more information.
When I have more information, I have more power.
I'm more empowered to get that need met.
And that getting that need met is going to assist me in shifting the emotional state
that I'm in.
I think that was a really important perspective.
I've heard a dad before there was two kids and they had a little disagreement.
And then one girl went off and then he said to her, go fix it.
And I think that's the perspective that you're speaking on is let's maybe not look at it
as a broken piece of wood that we need to put back together, but look at the underlying,
what is the unmet need?
What is this emotion signaling about what's happening to us and what is it that is causing
us to feel off?
And what is the unmet need that we're being shown?
I remember writing down in a workshop that we had done a couple years ago, every feeling
is a visitor.
And so it's like looking at these emotions as teachers.
It's trying to signal and teach you something about yourself and why you're reacting and
responding to your environment or the people in it in a certain way.
And there's this short quote I like, emotion is the engine of maturation.
And I think when we're honest with ourselves, there's not a whole lot of maturation on the
human existence without some emotional swings.
And I just think that's a really important perspective to take and not looking at it
as a simple problem, like a broken thing, but looking at it as what is the missing link?
What is the teaching?
What is the thing that I'm missing in terms of an unmet irreducible need?
I love that.
And every feeling is a visitor.
That's really wonderful.
And that kind of points also to something else that I think is useful for us to just
kind of bring forward for people as an avenue for learning and healing.
Every feeling is a visitor.
And yet sometimes some visitors can be really overwhelming, right?
I'm just sitting here suffering through like, I can't wait for this person to leave or
I can't wait for this emotion to change.
And so we actually have a lot of power over how we handle emotion from a physiological
perspective.
So it comes from understanding our nervous system a little bit better, polyvagal theory,
understanding about brain waves.
We have different kinds of states of being that are physiological or largely physiological.
And there are ways for us to, I mean, most of us know, take a deep breath, right?
I mean, that's one of the first things, but it can become, there's more to that in terms
of really shifting your state of being.
Because when you've shifted back from a fight, flight, freeze, or fawn state, or from a shutdown
state, these are the five states of being that are not flow state, right?
That are not conducive.
I mean, sure, if a tiger's chasing me, then I want to run.
But there are times when we recognize that the state of being we're in is not really
helpful to the current situation.
And so we want to move perhaps back into what I might call a flow state.
And there are ways that we can do that.
When we've moved back into a flow state, then we are more, we're less reactive and more
responsive.
So we're smarter.
We're actually smarter.
We're wiser.
We're open to more open to intuitive knowledge.
We're open to higher wisdom, which might come through as inspiration or insight.
Our brain is working more clearly because it's not clogged up by all kinds of random
thinking and, you know, not firing in all different kinds of ways.
There are just a lot of reasons why we are actually wiser and more intelligent from a
flow state.
So if we learn how to come back to that flow state from the other state, when it's relevant
to do that, then we actually have access to what did you say earlier about Dan about feelings,
emotions are leading us into evolution or something like that?
Emotions are the engine of maturation.
Yes, exactly.
And when we come from a state of being that's not helping us into a state of being that
is, then we have that opportunity to evolve and mature in relationship and to actually
diminish the things that we're triggered by, which is create ease and peace in our being.
Not boring peace, because sometimes we think that, you know, peace can be boring.
That usually is because, you know, we're repressing things, right?
If we're repressing things, we get bored.
But when you're really at peace, then you're free to do the things you want to do, to engage,
to play, to rest, you know.
And then also just one more thing I wanted to touch on is responsibility for needs because
as empaths, we become so much more empowered with our gift.
And not to mention within ourselves, when we recognize who's responsible for their own
needs.
So I'm responsible for getting my needs met.
And if I have a need to feel needed, hmm, wonder how I can get that need met in ways
that are not intrusive or demanding upon someone else.
And that person has needs that aren't being met.
I'd love to help them get them met, but it's not my responsibility.
I'm not supposed to do that.
I don't have to do that.
I might be able to help them take a step.
I might not, but it's not my responsibility to resolve that for them.
And I think that's just a really important kind of destination, you know, a goal for
us to reach for.
Oh, this is what it means to be a mature impact.
And this is where I seem to be standing on that continuum of evolution and growth and
maturity.
So you know, oh, here now I have some ideas about how I can get to a place I want to go
where I can be more helpful, more caring, less overwhelmed and more connected with other
people without having a responsibility that is exact.
Yeah.
And if I may add one piece, I think this is an important part of that process.
I think sometimes we have a tendency to, in our instant gratification, kind of get there
through the shortened corners approach where, oh, well, I just want to feel peace or I just
want to feel less overwhelmed.
I just want to feel settled.
I just want to feel balanced.
But I think it's important to leave time and space and allowing the expression of emotions,
especially certain ones, because like we mentioned earlier with the traits of people that suffer
from chronic illness, a lot of that has to do with suppressed and repressed emotions.
And so especially one with like anger.
And I think that's a cultural piece that's important.
You know, that's, I think, more socially acceptable for men and guys to express their anger, but
maybe not so much for women.
And there was some data that was showing instances of PTSD in mental health in women was like
two times what it was of men within the data that they had looked at.
And I think that's a really important piece, but not only for anger, but also for grief
and sadness and acknowledging that sometimes those processes of moving through those emotions
may take more time than is convenient.
And sometimes they come up at inconvenient times, right?
You're in the middle of a group or you're in the middle of your kid's ballet, and then
it's like, man, something just came up and I've got some intense emotions.
And we can't always make time and give ourselves the environment and the right space, but as
much as we're able to, and I think that's a really important process to then arrive
at this destination, like you said, that we want to feel where we're connected and we're
balanced and we have healthy relationships that are founded upon solid dynamics.
And we're really in tune with ourselves and able to be in service to others.
But I think a big part of that is honoring the emotions that come up and not suppressing
or repressing and let them take their course until they have taught us everything that
we need to be taught.
Yeah, 100%.
That's true too.
So, to me that begs the question like, okay, how do I know when to utilize my coming back
to a flow state and when do I, and how is it okay for me to express my emotion?
And by okay, I mean safe, safe for me.
And again, these may be things that require some learning.
You may want to find some professionals who are able to help you with that.
Or there's I think plenty of books, there are podcasts, YouTube channels, a lot of places
to look to have these kinds of questions answered.
And I invite you if you feel called and connected that you can make a connection with myself
or Dan as well.
These are things that we help people with every day.
Yes, as we continue to learn ourselves, and I will say one thing that I've always have
been very physical.
So sometimes I would just be like out in nature and just take a stick and break it in half
and just something about that expression, that sound for anger for example, would help
me release.
But recently I've been really enjoying drawing and painting.
And even with something like with anger, which normally you think like you don't have quite
the patience to sit down and grab even the necessary materials, you just need a quick
outburst.
But it's been really interesting where a lot of times I would just make a simple drawing
and then the colors I would choose and the shapes that it would take would to me really
represent the emotion that I was going through and it was a great feedback system.
So I found that a really good tool and I think always having people in your corner to lean
on, even if it's just a text or a quick phone call, again like this reaffirming this notion
that I'm not alone with it.
Because I think that can be where someone tends to shut down and then they think it's
all on them.
Everything gets stuck inside their own head and body.
And when you feel ready, and sometimes even when you maybe don't feel ready but you know
you need it, reaching out for support is such an important part.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Thanks for bringing that forward.
And I too find Creative Outlet to be a really useful one along with just being in nature
and maybe being more physical and active.
I mean I have to say that contact and semi-contact sports were certainly a great tool for me
at certain points in my life.
I wouldn't want to lean on that as an expression by itself because I think it's also important
to come to some inspirations and some realizations and things like that.
But getting that energy out, yeah, it can be super helpful.
Yeah, and of course practices that are physical but it can be great for all emotions, something
like yoga and tai chi that have energetic elements and help us realign not only our
physiology but also our energetic bodies into a more healthy aligned geometrical structure
is also really important as long with chiropractic work which are all functions of supporting
the physiology and the energy field into becoming more aligned.
Yeah, and I'll just quickly also say that chiropractic and acupuncture and Reiki and
other kinds of healing methodologies also help to realign the energy field and sometimes
there can be tremendous releases of emotional energy that are really different than you
would expect.
It just goes whoosh and it's like, oh, that's just gone, how did that happen?
It just emanated through your vibration and it was able to be released.
So all of these are different ways.
There are so many different ways and yeah, I'm not sure where do we want to go from here
Dan?
I mean, it seems like we're kind of wrapping up.
Yeah, is maybe the maybe ending with aligning with the wisdom of the higher self and kind
of leading it on out from there?
Yeah, absolutely.
So it's possible to set an intention and you get to decide what your intention is.
But what's the intention that I want as an empath?
How much do I want, when do I want to receive to be connected in an empathic way and when
do I not?
Like maybe out in public, I really don't want to pick up on every single vibration as I
walk through Walmart.
I mean, that just might be a bit much or I'm at the music festival and I'm in the center
of all of this people who are having hundreds of people, there's all different kinds of
emotional fields.
I don't want to be, you know, so you can ask your higher self, your divine self, your higher
wisdom, however you think about that to create to align with this desire that you have.
I only want to be empathically connected with the people that I'm closest to or I only want
to be empathically connected with those whom I'm meant to serve, you know, however you
want to set that.
And that absolutely works.
I learned that, you know, many, many, many years ago and it has served me really well.
You may have already noticed that you're connected with some spirit allies, befriending and aligning
with those beings can certainly help you with life in general and certainly with your empathic
skills.
I would just want to make a note that you want to make sure that the higher beings are
actually higher beings who have the wisdom that is needed to help you and not just kind
of fourth dimensional astral beings who are, who might want to help but don't have the
wisdom or who are opposing his higher guides for their own purposes.
And again, we're touching on something that you may not automatically know how to do.
So you might want to find someone who can help you make that distinction.
And then just aligning with the wisdom of the higher self, you know, you can ask, you
know, like when you receive empathic information, you know, is this my emotion?
Is this something I'm meant to help someone with at this time?
And you know, you're listening for the answers will come from, you know, that higher wisdom
that you have.
And if I am meant to contribute at this time, in what way am I meant to contribute?
Because when you don't ask these questions and you just follow that desire to be of assistance,
which is laudable, it's wonderful, but you may inadvertently enable someone else, meaning
that you may be alleviating their immediate feeling, but not actually helping them to
learn how to handle it for themselves.
It's also certainly going to overwhelm you and can sometimes put you into situations
that are not helpful for you or for the people around you.
So I think those are just some, oh, and yeah, you just spoke about breath and body also.
And we already talked about the salt lamp or the healing crystal.
So those are just ways that it can be helpful to protect yourself without having to create
some kind of wall where you're completely disconnected and isolated.
If I may add one piece to that, Amy, and let me know what you think about this.
I found it very helpful to when I'm intention setting to write it down and it helps kind
of crystallize what it is that you're trying to envision and bring forth into your energy
field.
And you could also do something like make a crystal grid or make a certain constellation
on your altar of sacred objects.
A lot of different ways to emanate this, but I think having sometimes a physical representation
can really help crystallize and bring that forth into the physical.
Yeah, absolutely.
And the ceremonial aspect of that, just like creating a crystal grid or something like
that, it's like, oh, this is kind of a ceremonial aspect that keeps you connected with your
intention.
Yeah, because a lot of times we have slippery memories.
And so it also is a visual tool to help you remember what it is that intention is and
to remember to set your sights on and come back to it when we get a little off balance.
Yeah, I remember a few weeks ago, a friend of mine who is a practitioner, I had taken
something to her that I wanted to work with.
And I really got the inspiration and the insight that I needed.
And it was just so clear.
And I was like, oh, that's wonderful.
And the other day I saw her again and I was like, I remember that I found that the inspiration
came to me and I understood exactly what I needed, but I completely forgot what it was.
She had to remind me.
And I think that we do this when it's something that's really new or maybe it goes against
some of our earlier learned things that don't fit anymore, that our minds become slippery,
as you said.
Yes they do.
Yeah, so that's why I find journaling also not only for intention setting, but for when
you get insights and downloads.
And this is what we know, we always do it right after ceremony.
And I encourage people, especially after their first couple of Reiki sessions, journal down
your experience because right after it's happened, you feel it, you're thinking it, every part
of your being is emanated with it, but you will forget it.
There's just too much that this world demands of our mind and our cognition and too many
decisions we have to make.
So you will forget these things.
So it's never going to be more clear and you're never going to be more able to put it down
into a way that you can remember the essence of it as when it first happened.
So journaling throughout the course of your experience with your intention as it unfolds
I think is a really important piece.
And then you can draw a line of coherence as you've worked through your intention and
as you work through the obstacles that you faced that have associated with it throughout
that time.
Yeah, that's great.
And also I just want to remind us that journaling can take a lot of different forms.
So you might draw in your journal.
You might have a vision that came to you in your meditation or your ceremonial experience
or whatever.
And when you draw that experience, it might speak to you later even more than the words
or you might just use words and not necessarily sentences.
It may even be useful for some people to speak into your recording device or something like
that and just play with it and see and it may be different for you at different times.
So yeah, that's a great tool.
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that too Amy.
That's a great point.
Yeah, because it can take very many, many forms.
And so finding the right grouping constellation that really works for you at a given time
because I think it's more about getting it authentically expressed and putting it down
than what it says or what it reads.
It's a tool just for you.
So it is kind of different than writing something for someone else to then gain insight from.
It's for us, it's for you.
Yeah, and if you're an artist, then drawing might not be the best thing because you might
get into your brain and perfection.
I mean, it might be perfect for you because you're an artist, but just remember that sometimes
that which we've learned to fine tune may not be the best tool for this kind of juggling.
Most definitely.
All right, Amy, any last thoughts about empaths and emotions before we wrap up episode two?
No, I feel like we've kind of covered everything that fits.
I mean, there's plenty to come back to and I think we'll do more podcasts on the empathic
topic probably, but I feel like that we covered a lot.
We offered some ways to help empaths and ways to understand some of the challenges you might
be facing.
Amy, do you want to lead us out?
Yeah, so just to give you guys a chance to kind of integrate and prepare to come back
to the next stage, whatever it is that you're doing next.
So just let yourself close your eyes for a moment if you are in a place to do that.
Take a deep breath.
Just kind of inquire without grasping for an answer.
Was there anything from today that spoke to you deeply and especially that you want to
remember to take with you?
And then just like take with you anything that's of value into the rest of your day.
And let yourself remember what comes next.
Maybe you're just having a nice day off and you're just going to be relaxing and playing.
Maybe you're going back to work.
Whatever it is that you're doing, just let yourself begin to gently align with that next
activity so that there's not a jarring transition, but a gentle one.
And so it is.
Blessings.
Thank you everyone for tuning in and we'll see you next time for episode three.
Blessings to you and everyone you love.