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Max, welcome to the show.

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Yeah, thanks, Kenford. You're great. Great to be here. Awesome. So

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Before we get started, I just want to highlight the intention of today's episode. I've personally been

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At work I get called out by my co-workers

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Whenever I'm sunbathing in my lunch break, right and then they come up to me and they're gonna be like man

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You're gonna get skin cancer if you're out in the sun that long. Do you wear sunscreen?

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I told them no and they're like, oh boy

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You better watch out and so it's like I under yeah, I understand the concern and the intention

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but

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there's a lot of misconception around this one idea and I wanted this episode to be that

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episode you send to someone and

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perhaps change their perspective so

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Could you give us an introduction of?

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You know your how you got into medicine how you got into this specific niche of medicine and

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An aspect I want to ask to you is how was your personal experience, you know?

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trip in that belief because I'm sure you were

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Surrounded by I don't know if you believed in it initially. I certainly did

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But that belief changed right and so how did that occur and take place?

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Yeah, sure. Well, I started as I

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wanted to do medicine from a I guess in an early age and

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I kind of got there a little bit of a roundabout way

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I did some basic science research in a bachelor of science degree first and and then I went to medical school and

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Did some public health as well in between my my MD training and

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The prelude or the background to my formal medical education was that I was dealing with some of my own health issue

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Which was a dermatologist. We're going to be talking about dermatology

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I had my own dermatological issue, which was acne, which is something that a lot of people maybe your listeners have dealt with and

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The approach to acne was that I had to experience was very

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medicalized and it wasn't in any way addressing

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lifestyle or dietary factors and

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essentially, I went through a process of many years of treatment with

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various medications and

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That essentially culminated in in using quite a heavy medication called iso-tretinoin

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Or raw accutane, it goes by a lot of different names in a lot of different countries

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Essentially, it's the sledgehammer that we use that the dermatology profession uses to take out someone's acne

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And it works quite effectively. It's an extremely potent synthetic vitamin A retinoid

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Which means it has various effects that essentially

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remove or deal with

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Acne and sebum production in the skin to kind of cure the condition. The problem with

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Is it is extremely

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Teratogenic meaning that it causes birth defects

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So any any young women taking iso-tretinoin have to be on birth control if they're sexually active

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So it just gives you an idea of the kind of degree of

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potentially that we're doing

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So you can you should often recognize people who are on this medication whether in high school or university

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Because they invariably have very very dry skin and they have very dry lips

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They constantly got the chapstick the moisturizer and they're putting stuff on their lips and it's a very very characteristic look

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So essentially I stopped using iso-tretinoin after about three months because

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It was having some kind of a

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Severe mood side effects the the whole process of going through this as a kind of a patient

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You know throughout my science and medical career. I was training. I was not being told of

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Effective lifestyle things that I could have been doing and I was eating a higher carb diet

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I was never overweight and I wasn't eating junk food, but I was eating oats

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Which you guys call

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Oatmeal in the states. I was eating oats for breakfast. I was eating those cartons of

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ready-made

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They're called up and go here in Australia

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But essentially you drink them before you're about to go on a run or a bike ride

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so basically a higher carb diet and

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it was sufficient for me to to contribute to this this problem and

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The the formal medical training that I was getting was

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And what didn't offer any any of these ideas, which is like, okay cut down and process foods

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Get some early morning

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IR red kind of light on your skin and you probably will go away

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But that that wasn't anything that I was told in between my visits to the family doctors to the dermatologists

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So I basically

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Was just trying to get some

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To the dermatologists so I basically went on my own healing journey and part of that was

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Understanding the role of diet and we're going low carb initially

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Keto ketogenic and then carnivore for for a time period

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The and it worked extremely effectively and that was I guess the the journey of me questioning

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that the model that I was being

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educated in and

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Understanding that it clearly didn't have all the answers because what why was I having a problem that I was able to fix that

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I hadn't been told about so that that was the prelude or the background to the this kind of mindset and

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Throughout this journey

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I mean

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it's I guess I'm a curious type of person and I'm always asking questions and exploring different ideas and within the sphere of I

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Guess metabolic medicine or low carb and carnivore you're always you're gonna have other perspectives and dr

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Jack Kruse's perspectives in that kind of sphere. So about a year after doing carnivore I

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was

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Somehow came across his work again

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You don't know the exact point some people know the exact point when they hear when they realize it

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but I think I can't remember exactly but and end up going down to that Kruse rabbit hole and

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Understanding that there's more to the story than just food

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Not to say that it's not extremely effective

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Intervention for people on its own, but I guess there's more to the story. So that was the the

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The pathway and the entry point for me into understanding

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I guess circadian biology a bit more delving into circadian biology and and and more quantum biology

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And I'm no expert on or biophysics and that's something I'm actively learning but it's

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It's this interesting facet of health that I think goes so well with with dietary treatments

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So I graduated medical school. I worked for for about

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four years in

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Emergency departments and it I guess internal medicine you guys call it and then I've started general practice training

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Which is family medicine. I'm here in Australia and

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This year being of being a family medicine trainee

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I've been able to implement some of the dietary and and light interventions that I've that I've learned and that

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Make up this circadian biology

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school school of thought and having great success and really finding that people

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benefiting a lot from going all the way down to the fundamental fundamentals of health and

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Implementing these these really really base layer lifestyle interventions

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And and finding that they're they're thriving

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So that's essentially where I've come from and at the moment now

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I also have a podcast regenerative health podcast, which is about a year just short of a year old and

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That is also an opportunity to

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talk to interesting people talk to

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people who have experience and

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At the cutting edge and then using those as like tools to help

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people in the consult because you only have limited resources

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In the clinic, but you can say hey, listen to this this and this and it's it's really effective

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So I guess that is that's my approach and and I guess the goal is always to help

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To assist people in the most effective way and hopefully help them

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avoid the unnecessary

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over medic medication without having also or first being given

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Effective lifestyle advice that could have prevented them or help them reverse their diseases

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But that be diabetes obesity fatty liver disease that they otherwise might not have under an exclusively conventional medic medical model

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So in your practice with your patients, would you say that?

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The sun is a main aspect

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Of how you would correct their lifestyle you like you incorporate sun exposure

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Would that be correct?

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Yeah, and I keep it simple because my patients aren't as I guess healthy

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Literate or down the rabbit hole is a lot of people

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On online on youtube and twitter, so I just basically say we need to look after your food diet and your light diet

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And just like you you can't be eating junk food. You can't be eating processed seed oils processed carbs

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Refined sugar and expect to be healthy. You can't be

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Consuming processed light artificial light led down lights

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Phone screens and you can't do that and expect to be healthy

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so the the message that I give to my patients is basically that those the twofold and

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Certain people will respond better to certain things some for some people simply just going low carb is enough to

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Sort out all their problems. I had a patient with parkinson's disease

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And the thing that so for your listeners

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parkinson's is

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Basically the degeneration of a special group of nerves in in your in your brain

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Where that produced dopamine and dopamine is involved in the initiation of movement

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and he had

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His his condition was improved the most the thing that moved the needle the most for him was getting out in that morning sun

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And spending as much time grounded in in in the morning sun and he was getting

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His his voice was was being

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His ability to speak was being lost as a part of the progression of his disease

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And when he was out in the sun, his voice was

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normal

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So it was it's just going to show the power of of

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Certain interventions, but I guess that the nuance and the skill

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Of what i'm doing is trying to understand where each patient's at and picking

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The the intervention I think is going to be most effective for the patient

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because you know some people like well, i'm not i'm not going to change my my diet they're too addicted to carbs or sugar, so

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You know you they're more likely to

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Perhaps see the sunrise and other people would be like, okay doc, you know, I work who?

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Shift work fly in fly out in a mine. So I can't do a lot of circadian stuff

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But i'll eat mostly mostly meat if you tell me to and those people respond really well to those interventions. So

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To answer your question definitely

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Sunlight and circadian biology is is at the core of my lifestyle message

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I think that's very

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Well in our space, that's very normal but

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If a normal, you know a person who grew up under the notion of sun causes skin cancer, etc

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Here's that that they would probably be very surprised to hear that that is the baseline of your treatment. So

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let's

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You don't do that in a vacuum, right? You don't just

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you actually learn this over a period of time and so I want to

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Really unpack this idea because a lot of people

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Will try to avoid the sun the sunscreens masks

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being inside and

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I think

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There's this belief that the sun causes skin cancer that it's harmful

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It's

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It's predicated on a couple of things. So

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The first thing i'd say it's let's let's take non-native emf for example

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I find that when I before I found out about non-native emf

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My belief that it was harmless was predicated on

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one

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It's not ionize. It's non-ionizing radiation

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Ionizing radiation is the bad one. So if it's non-ionizing radiation, then you go to the second part of this

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aspect

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Non-ionizing radiation is harmless

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So it's like a two-fold two steps

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and so if I believe those two things I must believe

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non-native emf my technology

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Isn't harming me right?

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and

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but I read a couple books that

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Completely wipe that notion away

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non-ionizing radiation

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is

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Very harmful due to the biophysical basis of our biology

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And so to take it back to sun

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the first thing I would say is

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This this widespread idea or

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It's been found in labs that uv light

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causes

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I don't know

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carcinoma in a skin cell culture and there it's

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conflated to

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It will cause skin cancer in us

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and that's backed up by

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our personal experiences of sunburn

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and

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If we are in the sun for too long, we get this this unpleasant experience

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of sunburn from mild to severe

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and then thirdly we have all these

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These studies showing statistics that show correlations of skin cancer going up

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melanoma going up

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and then

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Fourthly you have the doctors the media

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Just hammering this message home like wear your sunscreen your sunglasses

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And it all coalesces to this

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This very concrete belief

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That the sun is harmful toxic, etc

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So if we break this belief down into its components that I think that makes like a good

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basis of it

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and

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To reverse this whole process

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We first need to understand

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how light works as a foundation with biology because we study biology as

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a closed system

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but

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biology works in synchrony with sunlight and so

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Max could you firstly to to firstly correct?

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This notion of sun being harmful

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We need to lay the foundation of

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specific specifically red and uv light

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their mechanisms how

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they drive

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our biology and

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our beneficial

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to it so

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There's bioenergetics there's repair

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There's all this stuff so you can go ahead and you know communicate that

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How you want but let's paint the picture of light being the foundation

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Yeah, and it's it's a very broad topic and there's so many aspects to this

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But I like to really use an evolutionary lens as a as a starting point

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because when people understand the

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critical absolutely

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Indispensable role of sunlight in the evolution of complex life on earth then the idea

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That sunlight is inherently harmful becomes

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untenable if you if you truly understand

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What is actually going on here and?

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We can I mean we can take it all the way back to

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the

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evolution of of single cellular life

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That demonstrates circadian

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very adaptations to a circadian

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ability to maintain a circadian rhythm and by saying that is because as we found melatonin

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the substance melatonin in

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primitive bacteria primitive archaea that date back, you know to 2.4 billion years and

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The reason why is because they're using it's a marker that they're

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Making adaptations to their environment that is fluctuating in its environmental characteristics

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between day and night and if you you there's temperature change if there's light change between a day and a night

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Then you're going to need to adapt your organism to make sure that you're most fit for that for that environment

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So the the fact that melatonin is is expressed and secreted in a circadian way

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Dianally in in a way that's conserved from such primitive

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bacteria even before we were endosymbiosis mitochondria became

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Became endosymbiosis into cells to form

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More complex life then to me that is immediately showing that we we rely on on sunlight

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So if we if we take take that progression to the next step, so 600 million years ago

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We were around we were endosymbiosis which meant one organism ate

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I believe it was a form of rubric bacterium some kind of sulfur forming bacteria and they these two cells joined forces and

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The rubric bacteria became a mitochondria and they decided to well, they specialized in energy production in the cell

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and then you know, you you fast forward another hundred hundred million years and

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There was the

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Evolution of this gene called pro-opio melanochortin and to keep it really simple for for people

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I I think of it as a very long carnival ticket

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And it's actually actually a hormone that gets produced in a range of tissues in humans

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It gets produced in our brain in our skin in in many cells

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And you think of it like a long carnival ticket and if you cut this carnival ticket up into different pieces

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Then each different ticket can get you entry into different kind of carnival fare

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Depending on what what location you're in means that if in the brain you can the pituitary gland

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You're going to cut it up into a different piece and you're going to get something like

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ACTH or adrenocortico-tropic hormone or if you you cut it up somewhere else you in the hypothalamus

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You might get alpha msh, which is a very common thing

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So in the hypothalamus you might get alpha msh, which is has a role in in satiety and

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Feeling full and then if you cut it up in a different place in in maybe in the skin

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You're going to get something like beta endorphin, which is an opioid like chemical

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So 500 million years ago, we evolved this this

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Very long poly was a polypeptide hormone and the key point is that that is stimulated by uv light

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So you're going to produce this this pro-opium lanocortin hormone in response to uv light

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And the reason why this is so important is that it governs so many different aspects of biology

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This one polypeptide hormone as I mentioned ACTH is is related to the hypothalamic pituitary

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Act adrenal axis so our stress response is is critically linked to this

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linked to this whole body energy metabolism or how an organism regulates how much energy is caught on board so

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So somewhat of your listeners might know about the leptin molanocortin pathway. So so this is a central

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thermostat or regulator of how much energy we're carrying that

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Again, that is is going to be influenced by some of these pomacea cleavage products and then

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What what I mentioned about beta endorphin is

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Is endorphins are your body's way of telling you or rewarding you for doing something that is good for your biology

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So if you if you get in the sun and you produce and cleave pomacea into an opioid like chemical

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Then you're going to feel great. You're going to literally be addicted to the sun

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and

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You can see how and jacques makes this point quite quite insistently that you can see how

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How something like a opioid epidemic makes more sense if people chronically avoiding

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sunlight and therefore deprived of their naturally produced opioids which are cleavage products of of pomacea, so

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That's the prelude 500 400 million years ago. These jawless fish evolved this this

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polypeptide hormone and then we evolved out through amphibians and then

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Became mammals and we've conserved this this ability this

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polypeptide hormone because sunlight is so critical to

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to our biology

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so that kind of brings us up to us as kind of as as mammals and

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What what is also relevant is that pomacea is not the only hormone or

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Mechanism that we have to respond to UV light and and remember UV light is what is being demonized here

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UV is part of natural sunlight is what we're being told to avoid at all costs

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So not only do we have this master regulatory hormone that is being modulated by UV light

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but we also have what are known as non visual photoreceptors and

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Basically what that means is that your eye has visual photoreceptors

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So the the reason why I can see you can for now is because my visual photoreceptors are giving me an image

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there's

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about two percent of the

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neurons in your retina

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Perceive light that they don't perceive

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Shape or vision and that these are called non visual photoreceptors because they're still perceiving light

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But they're not telling me that there's you know, a pair of glasses and a microphone and and and and a man sitting opposite me

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They're simply perceiving light and the absence or presence of certain wavelengths of light

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And this was this was discovered because they realized that people

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or certain rats could

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Dependent what I'm trying to think of the exact experiment

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But essentially you could lose a bunch of your your visual photoreceptors

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But these rats would still respond to

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light cues

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so they would still have an intact circadian rhythm because they were detecting the presence or absence of blue light that helped them and

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train their circadian rhythm and

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That stopped the practice of in you what was called a new nucleation which was removing the eyes of blind people

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I think that was a practice for a while, you know medicines done a bunch of crazy things

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You know someone want to look nobel prize for lobotomy

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So that gives you an idea about how how the we used to do things

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But essentially we stopped doing that because we realized that even if people had lost their

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Visual photoreceptors to see and become became blind effectively

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There was it was important to leave their eyes in because if those non-visual photoreceptors

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Were intact then people would still be able to have a normal entrained circadian rhythm and therefore go to sleep at the right time

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And it's obviously critical for health

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So the non-visual photoreceptor system

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basically takes the presence or absence of certain light wavelengths and then feeds that into the brain into what's known as the

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suprachiasmatic nucleus and

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through what's known as the retinohypo thalamic tract and to do that is allows it to

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Coordinate all the body functions in response to the changing environment, which is the presence and absence of light

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Remember solar the sunlight and and solar light is still this this

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The main thing that is governing our biology and it's helping us to adapt to to these changing conditions

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so think about the way that

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that the body is using that is it can see if this blue light if

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you're using if certain non-visual photoreceptor called melanopsin detects the presence or absence of blue light and

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the the reason why that's relevant is because

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Blue light is most present in at noon in the middle of the day

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So we need to be doing certain things like hunting like finding food like being active

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That that is that way in training our biology is through melanopsin to give us that midday signal

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but the and to give you your listeners even further depth of

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Analysis on this it is thought that we evolved melanopsin

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In a very very ancient way because it was the blue wavelengths of light that were able to penetrate

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Down into into the ocean. So again, the oceans would where life evolved

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So even these plankton's and these incredibly primitive life forms

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We're still having circadian entrainment and they were having entrainment through melanopsin

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And which was a blue light detector because the other wavelengths of light on the infrared is getting absorbed very very very high up

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By the water but blue was being able to penetrate up to a hundred meters or so

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So again, let this we're building a story for your listeners that this is how important sunlight is for our biology

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It's it's that that old it's that ancient

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So not only do we have blue light detectors in in our eyes, but we also have

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a bunch of non-visual photo recept photo receptors that that

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Take in ultraviolet light. So nuopsin detects ultraviolet light

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So again, this is like a stop point for people who think that UV light

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Is inherently harmful and this is the first belief

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We're kind of breaking down is that if ultraviolet light from the Sun is inherently harmful

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Why do we have pro-opium melanocortin that is so critical?

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To running all out our body system. It's like calling Microsoft

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Microsoft Windows a virus

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I mean how if they're computing people out there, how could the prime operating system be of malware? It doesn't make sense

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So we've got pro-opium and then we've got nuopsin. So why would nature have given us a UV light detector?

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Specifically if it were if it were inherently harmful again

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It doesn't it doesn't make a lot of sense and in essentially these non-visual photo receptors are ways of helping us

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Become more adapted and more fit to the changing shoulder conditions because throughout the day

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That the sunlight is going to vary in the wavelengths of light that that hit the earth depending on the time of day

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So for your listeners the morning on sunrise is going to is a lot of red a little bit of blue

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Infrared light which is a non visible form of light that's even far further beyond red

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And then then we get ultraviolet a light. So ultraviolet is

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Below below 400 200 200 to mid 350

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I believe and then we get ultraviolet B. So ultraviolet B is where you start making

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Vitamin D and that is the most I guess carcinogenic type of UV light that most people are trying to avoid and then

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solar noon is

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You've got a peak of blue, but it's always balanced with red

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You've got UVB and you've got a bit of bit much less UVA

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And then that that process kind of reverses itself from new solar noon to to the end of the day

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So what what again we're painting this picture is that

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nature doesn't make mistakes nature never makes mistakes and

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Humans have evolved just like other organisms to be in

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Primely adapted to their environment and you can see how we might evolve these these light and non-visual photoreceptor systems

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is because if they're

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improving our fitness as mammals and as

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Animals to survive in our environment, then they're going to be conserved and they're going to be preserved across

383
00:28:29,500 --> 00:28:31,020
across evolution

384
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so that's essentially a bit of a background about

385
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What what are the the natural mechanisms that we have to?

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To defend that or to use sunlight

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So we've got pro-op amylochortin. We develop with secreting this key opioid hormone in response to

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00:28:49,820 --> 00:28:55,420
In response to UV light exposure. So then so I guess going more more mechanistically the question

389
00:28:56,060 --> 00:28:58,380
Bears out is like, okay. Well, what is the

390
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Question bears out is like, okay. Well

391
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Is UV light damaging? Well, the answer is yes

392
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So your ultraviolet light will cause DNA

393
00:29:09,660 --> 00:29:16,140
Strand breaks if you're if you're exposed to it and that's so I guess there there is a hot truth in terms of

394
00:29:16,700 --> 00:29:19,980
The the messages about the damaging effect of ultraviolet light

395
00:29:20,380 --> 00:29:25,340
but the answer to this question is that we've evolved mechanisms to

396
00:29:25,340 --> 00:29:30,380
Adapt defend repair the damage that is done from ultraviolet light

397
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and that is part of the adaptions that human that mammals and humans have made and to

398
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To give you an idea essentially

399
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We developed this hormone or this compound called melanin and again melanin is highly highly highly conserved

400
00:29:47,100 --> 00:29:51,340
across species and anytime you see coloration in nature

401
00:29:51,340 --> 00:29:56,940
Is is nature is using melanin to color to color in these?

402
00:29:57,500 --> 00:30:00,860
These animals, but it's not only got a color

403
00:30:01,660 --> 00:30:05,100
form or function it it acts as

404
00:30:05,580 --> 00:30:10,380
An ability to absorb ultraviolet light and or any form of light

405
00:30:10,380 --> 00:30:15,420
So it's black meaning that it can absorb all of the wavelengths of the electromagnetic spectrum

406
00:30:15,420 --> 00:30:21,180
But one of its chief roles is absorbing ultraviolet light and then dissipating that energy as heat

407
00:30:21,740 --> 00:30:28,460
And certain fungi have even evolved an ability to absorb all kinds of radiation using

408
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Melanin to then make energy and there is a role in in humans as well and this is

409
00:30:35,900 --> 00:30:41,980
Called human photosynthesis or so-called human photosynthesis, which is the ability of humans to actually take

410
00:30:41,980 --> 00:30:44,540
light and and sunlight and use it to

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essentially

412
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Derive energy from from the water molecule

413
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But the the point is that melanin is secreted to protect the dna

414
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and to protect the cell and

415
00:30:57,900 --> 00:31:02,300
melanocytes which are a type of cell that sit inside our skin layer

416
00:31:02,940 --> 00:31:04,940
essentially send out blebs of

417
00:31:05,500 --> 00:31:08,620
Melanin to to protect the the keratinocytes

418
00:31:08,620 --> 00:31:16,220
Which are another type of of cell the interesting thing that people will will know and let's bring it back to pomce is that

419
00:31:17,420 --> 00:31:24,860
Pomce is the signal when pomce is cleaved into alpha msh alpha msh stimulates melanin production in

420
00:31:25,900 --> 00:31:26,860
in

421
00:31:26,860 --> 00:31:27,900
currently

422
00:31:27,900 --> 00:31:30,380
Melanocytes so again, this is tying

423
00:31:31,020 --> 00:31:33,180
Propeller and according back into the story

424
00:31:33,180 --> 00:31:39,100
Was that it's the same compound that is making us addicted to the sun when it gets cleaved in one way is also

425
00:31:39,820 --> 00:31:43,420
Giving us a tool to defend ourselves against ultraviolet ultraviolet light

426
00:31:43,900 --> 00:31:49,900
The and there's a range of other defenses that that have and and that is essentially the the skin cells

427
00:31:50,460 --> 00:31:52,460
have become

428
00:31:52,700 --> 00:31:56,620
When they essentially die and they become a form of protective layer

429
00:31:56,940 --> 00:31:59,820
So as they if you imagine just layers of light

430
00:31:59,820 --> 00:32:04,140
protection of armor the the top layers of skin on your

431
00:32:04,940 --> 00:32:06,620
your epithelium

432
00:32:06,620 --> 00:32:10,780
If actually the cells that have died and their dna

433
00:32:11,500 --> 00:32:16,620
Even in the dead cells actually can absorb ultraviolet light as well, which is a form of natural sunscreen

434
00:32:16,940 --> 00:32:18,940
So we've got we've got all these

435
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:21,480
adaptations to the

436
00:32:21,580 --> 00:32:26,940
Defending ourselves against the ultraviolet light that would would be present even if it was

437
00:32:26,940 --> 00:32:30,860
ultraviolet light that would would be present in natural sunlight

438
00:32:31,660 --> 00:32:33,660
the other aspect to it again and

439
00:32:34,380 --> 00:32:40,300
This is relevant is that the rays that you get in the morning to the infrared and the red

440
00:32:40,540 --> 00:32:45,260
Are going to pre-condition the skin and prepare your skin for the later

441
00:32:45,820 --> 00:32:51,260
Exposure to ultraviolet so and this is going to be relevant when we talk about how things have gone wrong in the in the modern

442
00:32:51,260 --> 00:32:53,260
world, but most people

443
00:32:53,260 --> 00:32:59,580
Don't get that early morning sun red red and infrared exposure. They simply go right into the midday

444
00:32:59,820 --> 00:33:03,660
You know you think about a tourist that gets off the plane in bondai beach in sydney

445
00:33:04,460 --> 00:33:07,340
Very quickly looks like a prawn a piece of shrimp

446
00:33:08,380 --> 00:33:13,180
Because they haven't used the sun properly. They've got no solar calc and we'll talk about solar callus

447
00:33:13,500 --> 00:33:16,540
But the the point is that think about how?

448
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:21,100
Ancestrally, we would have used the sun and there's there's a group of primates in

449
00:33:21,100 --> 00:33:26,240
Ethiopia and every single morning they climb to the highest point of the mountain

450
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,480
To watch the sunrise like that is what they do every single morning

451
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:36,160
And we we would have been the similar ancestral humans would have watched the sunrise. We would have had natural

452
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,800
varying wavelengths of sun from starting with red and

453
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,880
infrared and then going all the way up to UV and then back down and

454
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:48,240
This is how we would have used the sun and this is how the body is adapted to use the sun

455
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:54,560
And i'm not sure about you kemford, but i've can i know very very quickly that if i've

456
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,360
When i've exposed myself into morning sunlight

457
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:03,360
I'm much much much less likely to burn quite quite noticeably and i've been around

458
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:10,560
Friends and we've had been vastly different in in our propensity burn even though we've got a similar fits patrick skin type

459
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:15,600
So it's it's something that we learn about you can see for yourself after after a while

460
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:17,600
so we've

461
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,840
I think i've painted enough of a picture for your for your listeners that

462
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:26,720
We the sunlight is key to to life and it's about how

463
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:34,160
We're using it therefore wrongly that I might say that is contributing to to skin cancers and

464
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:40,820
Basically, there's three different types of skin cancers that we're dealing with here. There's squamous cell carcinoma

465
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,280
There's basal cell carcinoma and there's

466
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,660
Melanoma and melanoma is

467
00:34:47,380 --> 00:34:52,660
Possibly the one that it's the one that we're most worried about and when people come in to get their skins checked

468
00:34:52,980 --> 00:34:57,140
That is the one that that we're most concerned because it has a very very high

469
00:34:57,620 --> 00:35:01,940
Well, it's a propensity to metastasize and it can be quite deadly

470
00:35:02,820 --> 00:35:06,980
basal cell is very very much more slow growing and

471
00:35:06,980 --> 00:35:12,740
And squamous cell carcinoma can be quite metastatic and dangerous

472
00:35:13,060 --> 00:35:18,420
But in terms of hierarchy of things that we're worried about the melanoma is right at right at the top

473
00:35:19,140 --> 00:35:27,700
so the incidence of these skin cancers has been increasing and particularly melanoma and particularly in people that don't appear to be

474
00:35:28,260 --> 00:35:30,100
That's unexposed

475
00:35:30,100 --> 00:35:32,100
So we've we've got this

476
00:35:32,100 --> 00:35:38,500
Situation where melanoma incidence is rising despite advice to you know, slip slop slap, which is

477
00:35:39,140 --> 00:35:44,260
Defend yourself against all aspects of of ultraviolet and and other forms of sunlight

478
00:35:45,380 --> 00:35:49,860
And we're faced with this question then is like, okay. Well, what is actually going on here?

479
00:35:50,020 --> 00:35:55,140
Is the sun causing skin cancers? And again before we go into the details

480
00:35:55,220 --> 00:35:58,660
I really you asked me to paint a broad picture and we'll we'll do that

481
00:35:58,660 --> 00:36:04,420
Is that let's look at some of these long-term epidemiological studies and one of my favorite ones is a swedish study

482
00:36:04,900 --> 00:36:10,100
from I believe it's 2016 or 17 and they looked at

483
00:36:10,820 --> 00:36:13,380
healthy behaviors in women in sweden who

484
00:36:14,020 --> 00:36:15,860
smoked who

485
00:36:15,860 --> 00:36:22,100
whose son bathed intentionally in those who didn't and essentially over a longitudinal period the

486
00:36:22,820 --> 00:36:24,340
women who

487
00:36:24,340 --> 00:36:26,340
actively avoided the sun

488
00:36:26,340 --> 00:36:29,860
their mortality was equivalent

489
00:36:30,580 --> 00:36:34,740
Who actively avoided the sun and didn't smoke was the same as those who?

490
00:36:35,380 --> 00:36:38,980
Smoked but but intentionally exposed themselves to the sun

491
00:36:39,380 --> 00:36:45,940
So that that that was such an elegant way of of indicating the magnitude of effect that we're dealing with here so you can

492
00:36:46,820 --> 00:36:51,620
You can smoke and to some degree is mitigated if you're exposing yourself to the sun

493
00:36:51,620 --> 00:36:58,500
Well, depending on how you want to look at it, but that really flies in the face of the advice that we're talking about to

494
00:36:58,580 --> 00:37:01,860
Avoid at all costs and there's clearly health benefit here

495
00:37:02,580 --> 00:37:06,100
So what why has things gone wrong? Why are people?

496
00:37:07,300 --> 00:37:10,840
Getting damaged or what what how they're using the sun inappropriately

497
00:37:11,220 --> 00:37:17,140
And I think it is possible to use the sun inappropriately if we haven't developed

498
00:37:17,140 --> 00:37:22,740
What's known as a solar callus and the solar callus and for people who don't know you know

499
00:37:22,820 --> 00:37:27,940
You develop calluses on your fingers when you lifted a barbell in the gym for many weeks

500
00:37:27,940 --> 00:37:31,220
and it's a form of a protective mechanism and

501
00:37:31,620 --> 00:37:39,060
The you know, you wouldn't cut your calluses off because if they are providing benefit just like a tan is is actually a an

502
00:37:39,140 --> 00:37:43,620
Adaption a whole to the hormetic stress, which was the sunlight exposure

503
00:37:43,620 --> 00:37:47,140
so a solar callus is a tool of basically

504
00:37:47,540 --> 00:37:54,740
Harnessing that sunlight in a way that is not is minimally harmful. So what what that involves or what that means is that

505
00:37:55,620 --> 00:38:02,020
We have cultivated melanin in us in our skin. We've developed our ability to

506
00:38:02,820 --> 00:38:07,540
expose ourselves to sunlight and ultraviolet light without burning and

507
00:38:08,100 --> 00:38:10,740
the way this works is that we

508
00:38:10,740 --> 00:38:13,780
progressively and expose ourselves to

509
00:38:14,580 --> 00:38:20,100
Ultraviolet sunlight starting first with the sunrise when in the most benign and non

510
00:38:20,580 --> 00:38:26,980
Non damaging wavelengths of sunlight which are red and infrared and if if anyone's in doubt about how beneficial

511
00:38:27,540 --> 00:38:31,940
Those wavelengths are you go go and look at the whole field of photobiomodulation

512
00:38:32,900 --> 00:38:36,500
Biomodulation there's whole companies who've made, you know profits and

513
00:38:36,500 --> 00:38:41,620
And helped people by making panels that isolate red and infrared light and people

514
00:38:42,180 --> 00:38:45,940
People's wounds heal better people recover better from

515
00:38:46,420 --> 00:38:51,460
Sport people use it for hair loss. There's a bunch of benefits

516
00:38:51,460 --> 00:38:57,140
You get from using red and infrared light in a photobiomodulation panel. The point is you can get it for free

517
00:38:57,620 --> 00:39:04,100
From the sun and that window is between sunrise and uva rise depending on where you are in in the world

518
00:39:04,100 --> 00:39:10,900
so the the the key to building your solar calus or using the sun properly is by getting

519
00:39:11,300 --> 00:39:14,820
That early morning sun prior to the ultraviolet light

520
00:39:15,540 --> 00:39:22,340
But again people haven't been using the sun correctly in in our modern age and let's I guess maybe we can talk through some of the

521
00:39:22,340 --> 00:39:27,780
things that they haven't done which means that they've got a atrophic skin and

522
00:39:28,420 --> 00:39:30,420
their skin is not

523
00:39:30,740 --> 00:39:32,740
prepared to

524
00:39:32,740 --> 00:39:34,500
prepared to

525
00:39:34,500 --> 00:39:36,500
deal with the stress of

526
00:39:36,660 --> 00:39:43,380
Of ultraviolet sun exposure so that if they are exposed it is more likely to be damaging in in the long run

527
00:39:43,940 --> 00:39:45,940
so the basically the

528
00:39:46,100 --> 00:39:50,420
Couple of things that i'll go over kenford and if you want we can go into depth more

529
00:39:50,740 --> 00:39:53,700
But the elephant in the room is the fact that

530
00:39:54,580 --> 00:39:58,900
Most people these days are under artificial blue light all day

531
00:39:58,900 --> 00:40:04,260
And their skin is being exposed to artificial blue light without red or or ultraviolet

532
00:40:04,500 --> 00:40:09,460
So that that is kind of the elephant in in in the room their circadian rhythms are often

533
00:40:09,940 --> 00:40:15,140
Disrupted and they're not making that key melatonin hormone that we need for body repair

534
00:40:15,860 --> 00:40:21,940
Especially over overnight. They're eating a diet in the us uk everywhere. It's rich in

535
00:40:22,340 --> 00:40:24,660
Linoleic acid which is plant derived

536
00:40:24,660 --> 00:40:31,700
It's predominantly a purified plant seed that is rich in the omega-6 fatty acid and lactic acid

537
00:40:32,020 --> 00:40:39,380
Which is essentially disturbed the evolutionary ratio of polyunsaturated fatty acids in our body in our skin

538
00:40:40,100 --> 00:40:41,140
to

539
00:40:41,140 --> 00:40:45,620
One that is very much favored in omega-6 and much less in omega-3

540
00:40:45,940 --> 00:40:50,500
Because people are eating processed foods with rich in seed oils and they're not eating as much

541
00:40:50,500 --> 00:40:56,020
Fish or animal derived sources of omega-3 like dha. So we've got

542
00:40:56,820 --> 00:40:59,380
artificial light exposure. We've got circadian disruption. We've got

543
00:41:01,220 --> 00:41:08,180
Omega 3 to 6 ratio, which is completely out of whack and then we've got the uses of of things like sunscreens

544
00:41:08,820 --> 00:41:10,820
And it's a controversial

545
00:41:10,900 --> 00:41:14,420
point to to say that potentially sunscreens have been

546
00:41:14,980 --> 00:41:18,020
contributing to the development of some skin cancer, but

547
00:41:18,020 --> 00:41:23,380
When we look at how these these molecules and chemicals are working it kind of makes a bit more sense because

548
00:41:23,940 --> 00:41:27,220
Essentially these skin skin sunscreens block

549
00:41:27,860 --> 00:41:32,020
Ultraviolet, but they don't block any of the they don't block visible light

550
00:41:32,260 --> 00:41:37,540
The ones that just kind of rub in and dissolve in your skin. So what they're essentially doing is

551
00:41:38,340 --> 00:41:41,140
And and they're mostly blocked uvb and less uva

552
00:41:41,780 --> 00:41:45,860
So if people are going out in the sun, they turn off their ability their ability to

553
00:41:45,860 --> 00:41:49,060
Know that they've got enough sun, which is sunburn. It's a natural

554
00:41:49,620 --> 00:41:55,780
Like warning mechanism that hang on we've got too much sun for our for our skin type at this point

555
00:41:55,780 --> 00:42:01,380
You should go inside so you're turning off that mechanism when you're using a uvb blocking sunscreen

556
00:42:02,180 --> 00:42:05,860
But the the problem is there is oxidative stress caused by visible light

557
00:42:05,860 --> 00:42:08,660
And I spoke to scott zimmerman who's an optics engineer about this

558
00:42:09,220 --> 00:42:13,780
And you essentially turning off that body's ability to block sunscreens

559
00:42:13,780 --> 00:42:17,220
Essentially turning off that body's ability to know that it's being burnt

560
00:42:17,380 --> 00:42:23,300
But you're not doing anything for the fact that your visible light is also causing damage to to your skin

561
00:42:24,260 --> 00:42:29,060
so the and and there's other aspects to it, there's a possible concentration of of

562
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:36,260
Metabolites of sunscreen because the uv light is breaking down the sunscreen and to what degree are the metabolites of the sunscreens?

563
00:42:36,580 --> 00:42:40,980
causing oxidative stress in in the skin, so it's it's a it's a profoundly

564
00:42:40,980 --> 00:42:46,440
Unevolutionarily appropriate way to use the sun if you think about what we've talked about for the first

565
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,920
Part of this interview is that to to use an exogenous chemical

566
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:55,800
that we never used in our evolutionary past that is potentially breaking down into

567
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:58,600
products that have unclear

568
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:01,640
Implication for human health and then concentrating

569
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:06,760
Non-visible like blue wave length violet or whatever else in in that skin layer

570
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:08,360
without

571
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:15,320
Without you being in a context that is completely unnatural and unenvolutionary appropriate. So that's my take on sunscreens and

572
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:23,320
he one key hormone in sunscreens or ingredient was is oxybenzone and I believe the hawaiians in

573
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:29,800
Your country the hawaiians banned the use of oxybenzone in sunscreens because it was killing their reef

574
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:34,780
So that's another whole aspect to it is the endocrine endocrine disruption

575
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:37,320
properties of these sunscreens

576
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:38,520
so

577
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:39,640
we've got

578
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,120
sunscreen and then we've got sunglass usage and

579
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:45,880
again, this is kind of a controversial thing to say but

580
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:48,680
the the blocking of

581
00:43:49,240 --> 00:43:50,520
your

582
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:52,920
Of the perception of uv light through the eye

583
00:43:53,720 --> 00:43:59,960
Is potentially impeding your body's ability to deal with the hormetic stress of uv light

584
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,400
by sending an incongruent message between your

585
00:44:04,020 --> 00:44:05,080
ocular

586
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:09,640
Non-visual photoreceptor system and your cutaneous non-visual photoreceptor system

587
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:14,200
So if those messages are different because your eyes are not getting any ultraviolet light at all

588
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:19,560
Because you've got a pair of shades on and but your skin is getting that that signal

589
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:25,800
That the the potential is there that you're paradoxically more likely or more inclined to to sunburn

590
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:28,600
Because again, you're messing with your body's

591
00:44:29,300 --> 00:44:32,300
naturally evolved mechanisms of homeostasis

592
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:34,520
so

593
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:38,040
That is I guess a prelude and maybe the last point about it is this

594
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:43,500
If there's a mismatch between someone's skin type and the latitude

595
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,480
Then they're more likely to be using the sun in a harmful way

596
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:55,560
And like I talked about the tourists getting off the plane from you know, grainy cold england and just baking in the australian sun on bondi beach

597
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,160
They they haven't built up a solar callus. They

598
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:06,760
Their circadian mechanism is highly disrupted because they have simply flown across latitudes and time zones

599
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:12,120
So they've got no defenses, I guess to this sun exposure

600
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:16,360
So to paint this whole whole picture for you or just steal it down for the listener

601
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:21,720
You can't expect to eat a junk a junk light diet your whole life

602
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:23,480
and then

603
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:28,120
Be able to use the sun safely. It's just it's not going to happen. You're going to be

604
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:35,640
Coming coming into problems. So I think a lot of where the message around skin cancer and sun use has come from

605
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,680
again in in terms of half truths is that

606
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,120
It's the people people's inherent

607
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:48,360
Lack of adaptation that makes something as life-giving and essential as the sun proxy

608
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:56,600
Yeah, thank you for painting a very big picture very big comprehensive picture of this whole

609
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,240
topic and that just illustrates that

610
00:45:59,960 --> 00:46:01,320
the sentence

611
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,320
The sun causes skin cancer

612
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:08,280
By itself is incorrect in the sense that it's super reductionist. There's

613
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:11,320
There's no nuance. There's no context

614
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:18,040
If that statement was true, you'd have to say okay the moment uvb hits your skin. It's synthesizing

615
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:23,240
Cancer cells, which is just not true. Then you say okay dna damage

616
00:46:23,240 --> 00:46:28,280
dna damage, etc, but then you elucidated all that where we have

617
00:46:28,820 --> 00:46:30,820
intrinsic mechanisms

618
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:32,120
that

619
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:34,360
Protect us against that and so

620
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:37,240
I just want to recap

621
00:46:37,240 --> 00:46:41,020
What what he said? So first of all he laid out evolution

622
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:47,400
Proof of work in evolution. That is something that when I talk to people about this that they usually can't

623
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:50,040
You know argue with right?

624
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:52,040
obviously the earth

625
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:54,280
was made by the sun and

626
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:58,040
Then it goes to a conversation of okay, you're right

627
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,720
But the dosage is what matters we'll get into that later

628
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:03,240
but

629
00:47:03,240 --> 00:47:05,720
I never heard of the analogy with microsoft before

630
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:11,160
It was it was wonderful. I'm gonna i'm gonna steal that from you. Yeah, go for it

631
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:14,440
Essentially we have all these

632
00:47:15,540 --> 00:47:21,240
Biology is studied in a closed system. But with quantum biology I realized

633
00:47:21,240 --> 00:47:27,080
There's a there's a primordial factor, which is light. So yeah, the circadian mechanism the

634
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:35,880
The leptin milano cortin pathway pomfci three very key mechanisms that run a cascade of hormones

635
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:37,480
and

636
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:39,480
biochemical functions in your body

637
00:47:39,720 --> 00:47:41,720
all

638
00:47:41,720 --> 00:47:43,720
Evolved and developed

639
00:47:43,720 --> 00:47:45,720
with sunlight over

640
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:47,640
millions of years

641
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:49,080
over

642
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:51,480
multiple species and generations of life

643
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:54,280
That is something one cannot

644
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:57,480
argue with right and

645
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:05,580
To top it off you have pomfci. So when we use interventions like sunscreen and sunglasses

646
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:13,720
Sunburn is our natural, you know way of warning that hey, this is a little much you can go in the shade now

647
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:15,880
But if you use

648
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:18,040
A sunscreen you block that mechanism

649
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,040
another mechanism that we use to

650
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:22,600
protect ourselves from the sun naturally

651
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:25,320
Is like you said through the ocular

652
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:27,880
through the ocular perception

653
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:31,560
Not visual perception, but registration of uv light

654
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:39,000
Through our eye the more intense the more uv light our eye registers the more pomfci

655
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:44,040
It makes the more alpha msh is clipped and more melanin is made

656
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:47,000
and that the more uv light in

657
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:51,640
That the environment the more melanin is made via pomfci

658
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:55,800
That's another mechanism that we have evolved

659
00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:58,520
for sun and

660
00:48:59,240 --> 00:49:04,440
Sunglasses just completely block that it if there's increasing uv light

661
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:06,040
environment

662
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:10,040
Your your body's not making any pomfci because you're blocking it with that

663
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:13,480
with that those sunglasses and any glasses because

664
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:19,560
Ophthalmology has demonized uv light. So every eyeglass manufacturer blocks uv light

665
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:22,760
You also touched on

666
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:26,600
Red light how red light helps the bioenergetics

667
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:29,400
Of the body how there's a whole field

668
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:31,880
That is completely

669
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:36,280
Sweeping, you know the literature about how beneficial this

670
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:38,440
This light is

671
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:40,280
and

672
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:43,880
I watched your episode with the god zimmerman. It was

673
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:46,280
super interesting and

674
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:49,800
a point I want I want to transition this into is

675
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:51,560
so

676
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:55,160
we have lived in blue light and

677
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:57,240
the more

678
00:49:57,240 --> 00:49:59,240
Significant aspect of this is

679
00:49:59,240 --> 00:50:03,240
There's no uv light. There's no red and infrared light. It's just blue

680
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:05,240
so

681
00:50:05,240 --> 00:50:07,240
We've lived in this environment

682
00:50:07,240 --> 00:50:13,560
And despite us doing a very good job at avoiding the sun. We do a great job

683
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:16,200
I don't see many people

684
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:18,200
You know bathing in the sun

685
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:20,680
Like like I am right

686
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:22,280
we

687
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,280
melanoma incidence has increased

688
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:25,480
and

689
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:27,880
I find it very interesting that the two

690
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:33,480
Frequencies of light that make melatonin are uv light

691
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:37,880
And infrared light so uv light through your eye will change

692
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:41,160
aromatic amino acids and

693
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:48,520
Through your the pineal gland that you know amino acid reconversion will make melatonin there

694
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:50,200
but

695
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:54,280
As got zimmerman laid out in his and max's podcast with him

696
00:50:55,080 --> 00:51:00,200
Red and infrared light on the skin actually makes melatonin in your mitochondria

697
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:03,560
I'm bringing i'm highlighting melatonin because

698
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:06,600
max laid out a very

699
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:08,520
over a general

700
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:10,120
story for

701
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:13,320
Sunlight it's essential to life the baseline of life

702
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:15,080
and

703
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:18,520
I want to tie this into the the mechanisms of cancer

704
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:20,200
because

705
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:21,320
a big

706
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:24,840
factor of cancer is a dysregulation of apoptosis and

707
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:27,320
melatonin

708
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:31,240
Melatonin is what controls apoptosis

709
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:32,840
so

710
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:37,320
We live in an environment that is completely deficient of the two light frequencies

711
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:41,580
that enable apoptosis through melatonin

712
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:44,120
so

713
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:45,800
I find that very

714
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:49,960
you know when you find out the mechanisms of the body and

715
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:53,080
Which light frequencies make what?

716
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:55,560
Then it becomes very

717
00:51:55,560 --> 00:52:01,060
enlightening to see that okay this there's more to this story. So could you touch on this?

718
00:52:02,100 --> 00:52:03,380
melatonin

719
00:52:03,380 --> 00:52:08,180
Point, you know of apoptosis dysregulation and perhaps bring in the fact that

720
00:52:08,980 --> 00:52:10,980
melanoma patients have

721
00:52:11,140 --> 00:52:13,140
a low vitamin d level

722
00:52:13,220 --> 00:52:15,220
and yeah, that's it

723
00:52:15,540 --> 00:52:19,300
Yeah, happy to and that's a great point to raise because

724
00:52:20,100 --> 00:52:23,620
again, we're it's raising cognitive dissonance for those who

725
00:52:23,620 --> 00:52:27,860
For the for those who would insist that it's sunlight that is the main problem here

726
00:52:28,180 --> 00:52:31,620
because what we see is that patients who have

727
00:52:32,180 --> 00:52:39,300
Who develop melanoma almost invariably have a low vitamin d level and a low vitamin d level is associated with

728
00:52:40,020 --> 00:52:45,380
progression to metastatic melanoma in the patients that already have have melanova, so

729
00:52:46,580 --> 00:52:51,540
The reason why this is should be confusing or for anyone who's thinking logically. This is a problem is because

730
00:52:51,540 --> 00:52:56,660
Vitamin d is synthesized in the skin on exposure to ubb radiation

731
00:52:57,380 --> 00:53:00,740
so if ubb is causative of

732
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:07,700
Melanoma then why do patients with melanoma overwhelmingly have low vitamin d level?

733
00:53:08,260 --> 00:53:12,580
so it's it's again, it's something that doesn't really compute and

734
00:53:13,620 --> 00:53:19,620
Cumulative sun exposure seems to be protective meaning that the people who do have

735
00:53:19,620 --> 00:53:26,660
The people who do have healthy sun exposure throughout their life. It's probably protective for for melanoma

736
00:53:27,380 --> 00:53:34,260
So again, that's that's a point that we really need to to hop on and point out and I I like to point out to my colleagues

737
00:53:34,900 --> 00:53:39,300
Because that's not something that they think that they think about and in australia, you know lots of

738
00:53:39,940 --> 00:53:41,780
melanoma or

739
00:53:41,780 --> 00:53:47,780
Suspicious lesions that could be melanoma get cut out, but I don't really think that most

740
00:53:47,780 --> 00:53:53,800
clinicians that I my colleagues are really thinking about something like sun exposure or or the amount of

741
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:59,800
vitamin d the patient has had to to talk about melatonin and it's

742
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:06,840
It's fascinating and I really recommend people listen to the episode with scott zimmerman, but essentially he broke down

743
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:09,800
the idea that melatonin

744
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:17,080
Melatonin is produced in two separate pools pools, so to speak. So the the classical

745
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:25,560
Knowledge of melatonin is that it's this hormone of darkness. It's produced a couple of hours after

746
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:32,620
Sunset when those melanopsin non-visual photoreceptors stop detecting light the pineal gland

747
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:38,840
Starts dumping melatonin into the system. It promotes sleepfulness and it allows it promotes

748
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:47,320
repair and and it has very potent antioxidant activity so that that was a classical I guess circadian biology

749
00:54:48,260 --> 00:54:50,260
understanding of of melatonin

750
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:58,360
But what scott and his and his partner in research dr. Russell rider have researched for a very long time is that

751
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:06,540
And have good evidence is that the the mitochondria in every single cell are also producing melatonin

752
00:55:06,540 --> 00:55:08,540
Meaning that you've got this

753
00:55:09,260 --> 00:55:17,060
subcellular melatonin in addition to this circulatory melatonin and what the way that they think about it is that on

754
00:55:17,980 --> 00:55:19,980
exposure to

755
00:55:20,100 --> 00:55:25,100
infrared light and even and UVA as well that the

756
00:55:26,100 --> 00:55:31,740
Mitochondria inside every single cell that is exposed to this light is able to produce

757
00:55:31,740 --> 00:55:39,580
Melatonin and that role of that melatonin is to deliver very very targeted antioxidant capability and

758
00:55:40,100 --> 00:55:46,280
this makes sense because if you think about the electron transport chain and the way that the

759
00:55:46,700 --> 00:55:51,300
Mitochondria produces energy for the cell that that's not going to be a perfect process

760
00:55:51,300 --> 00:55:57,620
They're going to be letting off some free radicals here and there that have the potential for to cause oxidative stress in the cell

761
00:55:57,620 --> 00:56:04,860
So it makes sense that they've evolved an inherent mechanism to dampen down that oxidative stress with melatonin

762
00:56:04,860 --> 00:56:10,180
That's kind of gets made at that site and I really think about it is like an engine cooling system

763
00:56:10,340 --> 00:56:13,660
So imagine if you had an engine that's getting hot

764
00:56:13,660 --> 00:56:18,880
But if you've got a water cooler a radiator or whatever that's that's attached onto that mechanism

765
00:56:18,900 --> 00:56:24,360
Then it's it's going to run without burning out and that's how I think about the melatonin that gets made

766
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:31,800
Right there at at the cellular level. So so melatonin is is a this unique antioxidant and the reason is because

767
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:36,320
Its metabolites are themselves antioxidants

768
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:42,520
so you basically can get a cascade of antioxidant effect based on one molecule and

769
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:46,600
that's one reason why it's it's so so effective and

770
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:53,480
The this idea of subcellular mitochondrial melatonin makes a lot of sense when we realize that

771
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:57,760
going back to the beginning of the interview that we evolved from

772
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:03,560
primitive bacteria and that primitive bacteria make melatonin so

773
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:08,560
we can see that they use melatonin for oxidative stress and again to

774
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:17,480
to regulate their circadian biology and if we in every cell have a vestigial thousands of vestigial bacteria and in a

775
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:19,480
Neuron or in a kind of myoside

776
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:26,760
Then we're producing a lot of oxidative stress. It makes sense that if they have a vestigial bacteria that they'll also produce melatonin

777
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:31,560
so that's that's this fascinating implication and what what

778
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:34,000
Scrape showed is that

779
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:36,480
infrared light is

780
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:42,380
Can penetrate so it's a longer wavelength. It can penetrate into the skin and up to

781
00:57:42,380 --> 00:57:50,100
8 to 10 centimeters through through clothing when we're outside and near infrared is always present throughout the day. It just

782
00:57:50,860 --> 00:57:52,860
changes in in proportion to other

783
00:57:53,380 --> 00:57:57,140
Forms of light visible and non visible but it's always there

784
00:57:57,140 --> 00:58:03,420
So what he found is that even when we're walking outside in in nature the leaves and the trees

785
00:58:03,740 --> 00:58:08,980
Reflect near infrared light to basically bathe our bodies in in this light

786
00:58:08,980 --> 00:58:14,980
And when he ran the numbers because he's an optics engineer. This is some very very unique thinking that you you

787
00:58:15,380 --> 00:58:20,780
maybe you wouldn't get from a clinician or an MD that you would get from an engineer is that

788
00:58:21,380 --> 00:58:23,020
about

789
00:58:23,020 --> 00:58:27,500
16% of the total number of cells in an adult are going to be

790
00:58:27,980 --> 00:58:32,660
Contacted by near infrared light when you're walking outside in the forest or in nature

791
00:58:32,660 --> 00:58:39,180
Meaning that 60% of ourselves are going to be producing melatonin on just simply by walking outside

792
00:58:40,100 --> 00:58:42,100
this changes for

793
00:58:42,700 --> 00:58:43,660
pregnant

794
00:58:43,660 --> 00:58:51,820
feed for fetuses or pregnant baby babies in in the in the womb and for children because of their their surface area and their

795
00:58:51,820 --> 00:58:57,540
size children are going to get a hundred percent of their cells exposed to near infrared light and

796
00:58:57,540 --> 00:59:02,380
What Scott found is that the transmission of amniotic fluid?

797
00:59:02,980 --> 00:59:04,500
essentially

798
00:59:04,500 --> 00:59:10,580
Corresponds to the wavelength of near infrared light meaning the amniotic fluid surrounding baby is

799
00:59:12,100 --> 00:59:16,260
designed by nature to collect near infrared photons and

800
00:59:16,820 --> 00:59:22,860
Essentially bathed the baby in these light photons presumably to help baby make

801
00:59:22,860 --> 00:59:27,060
Melatonin and maybe some other functions that we're not yet aware of

802
00:59:27,500 --> 00:59:31,860
But that that is the degree to which and this is only discovered very recently

803
00:59:32,020 --> 00:59:40,140
This is the degree to which we still yet to fully understand the the complete and essential role of sunlight in

804
00:59:40,500 --> 00:59:47,100
In a health and as you as you mentioned at the beginning of this question is we're not getting any of that light

805
00:59:47,100 --> 00:59:53,340
When we if someone's living a typical indoor existence one because the light is predominantly blue and there's no

806
00:59:53,900 --> 01:00:00,940
Non-visual light and the fact that most people are living that lifestyle every day. So when this comes to

807
01:00:01,740 --> 01:00:05,420
cancer we can think about melatonin is that

808
01:00:06,380 --> 01:00:12,140
This put it into the first two points that I raised which is one people are not getting only getting blue light

809
01:00:12,140 --> 01:00:15,740
So they're not making melatonin in those those skin cells in those

810
01:00:15,740 --> 01:00:21,340
Where they they might be developing malignant cells and two they having disrupted circadian rhythm

811
01:00:21,340 --> 01:00:28,860
So both their subcellular melatonin and their circulatory melatonin is going to be knocked down or not working properly

812
01:00:29,340 --> 01:00:35,580
And when as you mentioned melatonin one of its roles is to regulate apoptosis. So

813
01:00:36,380 --> 01:00:38,380
Malignancy is basically when the cell

814
01:00:39,020 --> 01:00:41,020
becomes immortal and decides to

815
01:00:41,020 --> 01:00:48,380
Fail in its ability to arrest its cell cycling and mitochondrial dysfunction is is key in that because when you break

816
01:00:48,700 --> 01:00:50,700
the mitochondria you

817
01:00:51,020 --> 01:00:52,540
get this regulation or

818
01:00:52,540 --> 01:00:56,380
problems with the expression of genes in in the nucleus, so

819
01:00:57,020 --> 01:01:02,620
That's that's I guess the the high level mechanism of how when you mess with your body's melatonin system

820
01:01:02,940 --> 01:01:08,140
You could get not only skin cancer, but a range of other cancers and when we look at

821
01:01:08,140 --> 01:01:14,700
cancer incidence by latitude and there's a there's extensive literature that shows cancer

822
01:01:15,260 --> 01:01:22,540
Incidents increasing with decreasing vitamin d levels and yet when they supplemented people with vitamin d they haven't been able to

823
01:01:23,420 --> 01:01:29,100
correct or cure though that kind of that difference and what what that I believe that represents is

824
01:01:30,220 --> 01:01:35,340
Vitamin d is a proxy of sunlight exposure because people who are getting sunlight that built the vitamin d

825
01:01:35,340 --> 01:01:39,340
They're probably also getting near infrared because they're outside in various amounts

826
01:01:39,660 --> 01:01:47,260
So it's possibly just a proxy of how much near infrared and melatonin that we made throughout the day and throughout the night that is

827
01:01:47,820 --> 01:01:54,300
Reflecting that lower cancer cancer and heart disease and rates that that we notice with increasing vitamin d levels

828
01:01:55,740 --> 01:01:59,500
Yeah, awesome. I want to touch on briefly that

829
01:02:00,540 --> 01:02:02,540
You know the first point I made is

830
01:02:02,540 --> 01:02:08,060
that you know the first point I made in the in the crux of this belief that

831
01:02:08,940 --> 01:02:16,380
UV light causes radiation and you know skin cell culture. Therefore it's conflated to cancer in the living organism, right?

832
01:02:17,180 --> 01:02:19,180
Jalal posted this on instagram

833
01:02:19,580 --> 01:02:20,700
that

834
01:02:20,700 --> 01:02:25,420
All of those experiments are done with narrowband artificial uv light

835
01:02:25,980 --> 01:02:27,980
therefore at best

836
01:02:28,220 --> 01:02:30,220
it's a red herring because

837
01:02:30,220 --> 01:02:33,740
UV light and full spectrum sunlight are just not

838
01:02:34,460 --> 01:02:36,460
It's not the same, right?

839
01:02:36,860 --> 01:02:39,260
The red light that balances the uv light

840
01:02:40,620 --> 01:02:43,020
Is a critical factor if you want to consider

841
01:02:43,740 --> 01:02:50,860
the mechanisms of uv light and so you're kind of if we the the population conflates the two

842
01:02:51,740 --> 01:02:54,620
artificial uv light in a petri dish

843
01:02:55,580 --> 01:02:57,260
now is

844
01:02:57,260 --> 01:03:02,780
Spoke full spectrum sunlight being harmful on on a body. It's it's very reductionist

845
01:03:03,180 --> 01:03:07,260
There's there's no nuance. There's no context and that's the main point. I want to

846
01:03:08,060 --> 01:03:09,820
like talk about in this

847
01:03:09,820 --> 01:03:11,580
podcast and

848
01:03:11,580 --> 01:03:15,820
Max is here to bring us that nuance that detail that context because

849
01:03:16,460 --> 01:03:20,060
He himself is in the crux of it in australia

850
01:03:20,700 --> 01:03:22,060
They have

851
01:03:22,060 --> 01:03:24,060
They are in dire need of sun

852
01:03:24,380 --> 01:03:26,380
But they avoid it like the plague

853
01:03:26,380 --> 01:03:27,660
so

854
01:03:27,660 --> 01:03:33,420
It's our job to to spread this message one episode or one conversation at a time

855
01:03:34,620 --> 01:03:38,860
Definitely and i'll just make a quick point on that and you're you're 100 correct

856
01:03:38,860 --> 01:03:42,140
it's it's reductionist and it's really taking the

857
01:03:43,100 --> 01:03:48,700
The uv light completely out of context and extrapolating that in a way that just just is not applicable

858
01:03:49,020 --> 01:03:51,020
You know, it reminds me of those

859
01:03:51,020 --> 01:03:55,180
You know the the cardboard cutout ferrari compared to it to the real ferrari

860
01:03:55,180 --> 01:04:02,140
You know the guys just holding the cardboard ferrari you can't you can't look at an isolated ultraviolet band

861
01:04:02,460 --> 01:04:07,500
Without the balance of the other wavelengths and then you look at a cell culture

862
01:04:07,740 --> 01:04:15,180
So there's two problems here one that you're not using representative light wavelengths and two you're not using representative cells because

863
01:04:15,740 --> 01:04:17,340
you you

864
01:04:17,340 --> 01:04:21,980
It's not the context. It's not the natural context of of humans in the natural environment

865
01:04:21,980 --> 01:04:28,060
So it is yeah, there's this problems with the I guess the external validity of that science

866
01:04:28,060 --> 01:04:32,940
Which is the ability to extrapolate that that that signs out. So yeah, it's

867
01:04:33,980 --> 01:04:38,220
That's a great point and it is very it's very important because if we're basing our recommendations

868
01:04:38,940 --> 01:04:39,900
on

869
01:04:39,900 --> 01:04:43,180
that type of data and that kind of literature then

870
01:04:43,820 --> 01:04:47,420
People are not getting the complete story and you know as dr

871
01:04:47,420 --> 01:04:53,100
Jack Kruse likes to say, you know the half truth always leads to full lie and I think that that's that's

872
01:04:53,500 --> 01:04:55,500
Essentially what's what's being what's happening?

873
01:04:56,460 --> 01:04:58,220
right and

874
01:04:58,220 --> 01:05:00,780
the last point I want to touch on real quick is

875
01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:06,220
Epidemiology we've brought out epidemiology a couple times in this podcast and

876
01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:11,580
Invariably, you know a person will cite this study that study that shows

877
01:05:12,460 --> 01:05:13,580
you know

878
01:05:13,580 --> 01:05:18,460
melanoma incidence or skin cancer increases with like sun exposure something like that and

879
01:05:19,340 --> 01:05:24,720
I just want to point out that one those studies are the most susceptible to manipulation

880
01:05:25,660 --> 01:05:30,940
You gotta see who's funding them. You can you can mess with the groups, you know the

881
01:05:32,220 --> 01:05:37,580
The categories of the groups like it's a very manipulable study, right? The structure of it is very

882
01:05:37,580 --> 01:05:44,940
Very susceptible to that. So yeah, the field of epidemiology has its benefits and it has its drawbacks and

883
01:05:45,340 --> 01:05:47,660
I think some of some of the most important

884
01:05:48,380 --> 01:05:51,980
studies that we've we've had have been epidemiological and

885
01:05:52,620 --> 01:05:55,100
I guess to break it down for the the listener we have

886
01:05:56,700 --> 01:05:59,100
We can only derive a causative claim

887
01:05:59,980 --> 01:06:06,860
Yeah, if we have controlled for if we actually have have controlled so so a randomized controlled trial

888
01:06:06,860 --> 01:06:07,900
basically

889
01:06:07,900 --> 01:06:12,300
Splits people into two groups one group gets an intervention one doesn't get the intervention

890
01:06:12,460 --> 01:06:19,740
The other the other variables are controlled for and therefore we can compare only that that single factor and

891
01:06:20,540 --> 01:06:27,340
Confounding which is this idea of another third factor that we haven't measured actually being responsible responsible for the observed outcome

892
01:06:28,060 --> 01:06:31,660
Theoretically a randomized control trial accounts for confounding

893
01:06:31,660 --> 01:06:38,220
So that the idea is that if you do an rct you can get a causative you can get an answer to a

894
01:06:38,620 --> 01:06:45,660
Causative question if you don't control for if you don't do an intervention or trial if you do an observational trial

895
01:06:46,060 --> 01:06:48,220
That is simply looking at

896
01:06:48,940 --> 01:06:55,340
Say groups of people then you you are best at getting an associational you're getting an associational relationship

897
01:06:55,820 --> 01:06:58,060
and the associational relationship

898
01:06:58,060 --> 01:07:02,860
Associational relationship isn't causal because you you haven't controlled for

899
01:07:03,660 --> 01:07:09,500
All the confounders you're not 100 sure that the factor that you're looking at is causally implicated

900
01:07:09,580 --> 01:07:15,180
And you know the most classic way to explain this is that you know, if you you you found a whole bunch of people

901
01:07:16,460 --> 01:07:20,140
You had a group of people or two groups of people one carried

902
01:07:21,100 --> 01:07:26,700
Cigarette lighters and one didn't carry cigarette lighters and then you looked at the incidences of lung cancer

903
01:07:26,700 --> 01:07:31,900
You might erroneously assume that carrying a cigarette lighter causes lung cancer

904
01:07:32,140 --> 01:07:36,380
but of course it doesn't it's because the people who carry cigarette lighters are smokers and

905
01:07:36,860 --> 01:07:40,780
The the causative role is the is actual smoking but in unless

906
01:07:41,900 --> 01:07:46,380
That's the degree to which we can be confused by associate associational evidence

907
01:07:47,100 --> 01:07:49,100
the benefit of of

908
01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:54,300
Epidemiology, especially long term is when we're looking at a really hard endpoint like all-cause mortality

909
01:07:54,300 --> 01:07:56,060
because

910
01:07:56,060 --> 01:07:58,780
It's as concrete an outcome measure as any, you know

911
01:07:58,860 --> 01:08:00,860
Did the person die or did they not die?

912
01:08:01,260 --> 01:08:06,700
And that's what I think most of that the long-term associate epidemiology is really beneficial

913
01:08:07,260 --> 01:08:09,260
some of the most most

914
01:08:09,320 --> 01:08:14,220
unrigorous epidemiology is nutritional epidemiology because they essentially

915
01:08:15,180 --> 01:08:20,300
Typically they give people a food questionnaire to recall about what they ate, you know over

916
01:08:20,300 --> 01:08:27,420
Over a year and then look at outcomes and they're so it's so prone to what's known as recall bias other forms of

917
01:08:27,960 --> 01:08:32,300
Confounding that it's literally not even worth the paper. It's printed on so

918
01:08:33,420 --> 01:08:37,180
The point is that epidemiology can be beneficial, but when it's used to

919
01:08:37,820 --> 01:08:39,820
inform claims

920
01:08:39,820 --> 01:08:45,260
Without without nuance or without delving into into causality or being able to tease out that causality

921
01:08:45,260 --> 01:08:48,380
Then it's it can it can send us on the on the wrong path

922
01:08:48,380 --> 01:08:49,900
and

923
01:08:49,900 --> 01:08:56,940
Yeah nutrition is one aspect but in in this context that we're talking about we can correlate

924
01:08:57,580 --> 01:09:03,420
Skin cancer with sun exposure, but what else were those people doing? So the people that developed melanoma

925
01:09:03,820 --> 01:09:06,060
Yeah, they they might have had a couple of

926
01:09:06,860 --> 01:09:08,780
severe sunburns, but

927
01:09:08,780 --> 01:09:12,940
They what else were they doing? Were they eating a diet that was rich in in cedars?

928
01:09:12,940 --> 01:09:18,460
They were under artificial lights. They none of these they had disrupted circadian rhythms

929
01:09:19,020 --> 01:09:25,500
None of these other factors are being controlled for so yes, we can see an associational increase in in skin cancer, but

930
01:09:26,220 --> 01:09:29,420
Was it the sun per se or was it all these other factors that?

931
01:09:30,140 --> 01:09:33,420
their own atropic skin their lack of a solar calus that essentially

932
01:09:34,040 --> 01:09:36,040
Conspired and in constellation

933
01:09:36,300 --> 01:09:39,580
Lowered the threshold such that they developed a cancer

934
01:09:39,580 --> 01:09:44,460
So yeah, so that's the that's the point I want to emphasize too like

935
01:09:45,480 --> 01:09:47,480
epidemiology is a tool and

936
01:09:47,980 --> 01:09:49,100
we

937
01:09:49,100 --> 01:09:51,420
That tool is misused to

938
01:09:52,600 --> 01:09:57,260
Perpetuate certain notions that the sun causes skin cancer. It's

939
01:09:57,980 --> 01:10:05,340
Done. No debated about it. It's at best it's a tool in the sense that it will point you to trends

940
01:10:06,140 --> 01:10:08,140
and if those trends have

941
01:10:08,140 --> 01:10:10,140
underlying mechanisms

942
01:10:10,620 --> 01:10:12,620
That you can explore

943
01:10:12,940 --> 01:10:14,940
Then that's significant. So

944
01:10:15,420 --> 01:10:20,060
What have we done in this pot? What has max done in this podcast? So he's laid out

945
01:10:20,920 --> 01:10:22,920
epidemiological studies that show

946
01:10:23,260 --> 01:10:25,420
vitamin d levels that have

947
01:10:26,380 --> 01:10:30,860
Low that are low in melanoma patients. He's laid out the 2016

948
01:10:31,420 --> 01:10:33,420
Sweden study, you know

949
01:10:33,420 --> 01:10:38,060
Then we investigate. Okay, could there be a mechanism underneath that?

950
01:10:38,680 --> 01:10:44,300
Obviously, there's no mechanism to lay to carrying a lighter in that in of itself

951
01:10:45,020 --> 01:10:47,260
causing lung cancer, right so

952
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:50,940
Epidemiology the main thing I want to emphasize is

953
01:10:52,040 --> 01:10:59,520
Correlation is not causation but it demands an investigation and what you investigate is a mechanism

954
01:10:59,520 --> 01:11:04,800
And when you investigate the mechanisms of the body that we've evolved to have

955
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:07,680
it's the evidence just

956
01:11:08,220 --> 01:11:10,000
overwhelmingly points

957
01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:13,760
to sunlight being beneficial when you use it correctly

958
01:11:14,540 --> 01:11:17,280
sunlight being taken out of context being

959
01:11:18,060 --> 01:11:20,400
demonized for no reason and

960
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:26,880
There's other factors we could talk about forever max like vitamin d supplementation how that's not equivalent

961
01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:32,320
How you know, there's billion dollar industries that are behind this, you know

962
01:11:33,200 --> 01:11:35,200
Fact that I want to push it

963
01:11:35,520 --> 01:11:39,280
Certain people want to block it block out the sun like all this stuff

964
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:42,000
but if you

965
01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:47,120
Depending on how conspiratorial or not you want to get you know, you could go on listen

966
01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:53,600
Yeah, I mean, I mean I Jack Kruse he said, you know, if you get in the sun, you don't need Rockefeller's medicine

967
01:11:53,600 --> 01:12:00,480
I mean, I don't know to what degree that's intentional, but I will give you I will give you this example is that

968
01:12:01,040 --> 01:12:06,080
There are medications and this is not led to the skin cancer, but it's related to pomC

969
01:12:06,480 --> 01:12:10,720
There are medications that are designed to target

970
01:12:11,260 --> 01:12:18,820
Proto-opinion monocortin to reduce appetite and I know I know one that is a combination of naltrexone and bupropion

971
01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:21,100
that is

972
01:12:21,100 --> 01:12:22,960
specifically designed to

973
01:12:22,960 --> 01:12:24,960
target pomC

974
01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:29,520
Potentiate the action of of pomC and then naltrexone is to remove

975
01:12:30,080 --> 01:12:36,640
The endorphin the beta endorphin and the endorphin there's a negative feedback loop that might stop the potentiation of

976
01:12:37,120 --> 01:12:42,320
The anorexic or the kind of appetite suppressing effect of pomC in the hypothalamus

977
01:12:42,560 --> 01:12:48,240
So if pharma knows about this effect because they've designed a drug a drug to directly target it

978
01:12:48,240 --> 01:12:53,600
So you can you can try and take this medication to reduce appetite if you're overweight

979
01:12:53,840 --> 01:12:58,160
Or you can stimulate pomC naturally by getting in in UV light

980
01:12:58,440 --> 01:13:05,440
so that's that point is just to emphasize that one pharma knows about the role of pomC in

981
01:13:06,040 --> 01:13:11,480
metabolism and the fact that that that pomC is so central to

982
01:13:12,040 --> 01:13:16,200
energy homeostasis and weight weight gain and so you can you can

983
01:13:16,200 --> 01:13:22,120
Disintermediate or you can take out pharma from the picture by simply getting actually of old sunlight

984
01:13:23,400 --> 01:13:26,360
Centralization and decentralization in the nutshell

985
01:13:27,080 --> 01:13:29,080
Yeah, so

986
01:13:29,080 --> 01:13:31,400
To wrap this episode up. I want to just

987
01:13:32,120 --> 01:13:39,080
Finish off with a couple of quick questions and a last little thing. So max. What time is it over there right now?

988
01:13:40,120 --> 01:13:45,160
So we just we're getting into the sun's coming up. So it's almost about 9 o'clock

989
01:13:45,160 --> 01:13:48,280
It's almost about 9 a.m. Here 9 a.m. Over there

990
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:50,360
so

991
01:13:50,360 --> 01:13:52,360
You're a full-time doctor

992
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:54,360
You hold down a podcast

993
01:13:55,160 --> 01:13:58,200
And you go interviews. How much would you

994
01:13:59,080 --> 01:14:01,560
Say that time how much time would you say that takes?

995
01:14:02,280 --> 01:14:04,280
In your week like I bet it's a lot right?

996
01:14:04,600 --> 01:14:10,920
Yeah, it is. It's quite busy. So we you know work like 40 hours a week and then in my clinic and then

997
01:14:10,920 --> 01:14:18,700
Podcasting recording can take five six seven hours a week depending on on what we're doing. So yeah, it's it's busy. That's for sure

998
01:14:19,980 --> 01:14:23,180
So yeah in this context because I've I'm in the game

999
01:14:23,900 --> 01:14:26,700
Pretty new and I'm I have a full-time job myself

1000
01:14:27,420 --> 01:14:32,060
It's hard, you know, there's a there's a lot on the side that people

1001
01:14:32,700 --> 01:14:35,820
That I wasn't privy to when before I started this

1002
01:14:36,460 --> 01:14:38,460
So I wanted to ask you

1003
01:14:38,460 --> 01:14:40,780
What what events in your life

1004
01:14:41,500 --> 01:14:43,820
What life experiences have shaped you to?

1005
01:14:44,460 --> 01:14:49,820
You know what drives you to put this message out to go the extra mile?

1006
01:14:50,700 --> 01:14:55,660
What in your past has led you to this point to do more for the better?

1007
01:14:57,340 --> 01:14:59,340
Yeah, I think it's a sense of

1008
01:15:00,060 --> 01:15:06,380
Frustration or this discontentment with this idea that people aren't getting the information that they need to help themselves

1009
01:15:06,380 --> 01:15:08,380
the information that they need to help themselves

1010
01:15:09,180 --> 01:15:12,780
and i'm i'm okay if someone decides to

1011
01:15:13,340 --> 01:15:20,860
Continue a lifestyle behavior that's made them sick that I respect everyone's autonomy to to do that to make those decisions for themselves

1012
01:15:20,940 --> 01:15:23,580
But if someone hasn't been given

1013
01:15:24,380 --> 01:15:29,020
information that could potentially reverse their disease prevent them from getting that disease

1014
01:15:29,020 --> 01:15:35,820
Please avoid them from needing a medication whether that's for three months or lifelong if someone hasn't got that

1015
01:15:36,600 --> 01:15:38,600
information then to me

1016
01:15:39,500 --> 01:15:43,740
We as doctors we failed that patient and that's that's just simply not good enough

1017
01:15:44,140 --> 01:15:48,620
And then when you add in that aspect that a lot of medications or treatment protocols have

1018
01:15:49,020 --> 01:15:55,180
Meaningful side effects that cause people suffering then it's it's just not it's not right in in my book

1019
01:15:55,180 --> 01:15:59,260
and I think that those of us who have an understanding or

1020
01:15:59,820 --> 01:16:05,180
Of how things might work and in a way and able to explain that in a way that can help people then

1021
01:16:05,660 --> 01:16:09,980
Then to me then then I have an obligation to put that information out there

1022
01:16:10,060 --> 01:16:15,820
And and again, it's it's not about making anyone do anything. It's simply giving people options and

1023
01:16:16,780 --> 01:16:23,340
Often patients that I see that they're not interested in making any lifestyle changes for whatever reason and that's fine

1024
01:16:23,340 --> 01:16:30,540
I will help them and we'll prescribe medication because that's that's the choice that they've made but the the crux of

1025
01:16:31,660 --> 01:16:35,180
patient care in my mind of ethical patient care, which is

1026
01:16:35,820 --> 01:16:36,780
the

1027
01:16:36,780 --> 01:16:43,900
the commitment that that I and other doctors made when we got into this profession is that first we should do no harm and

1028
01:16:44,540 --> 01:16:48,220
The the least harm intervention is a is a lifestyle intervention

1029
01:16:48,700 --> 01:16:49,980
so

1030
01:16:49,980 --> 01:16:54,540
To me the the podcasts and the talks and and everything is is my

1031
01:16:55,660 --> 01:17:01,420
Doing my part and doing my role in in giving people this information to help help themselves

1032
01:17:03,580 --> 01:17:06,140
To uphold the hippocratic oath

1033
01:17:06,940 --> 01:17:11,500
Yeah, that's yeah and and and a big part of that and that big big

1034
01:17:11,660 --> 01:17:15,660
I mean everyone's had a family member who's been sick and and my health journey is part of that. So

1035
01:17:15,660 --> 01:17:19,580
I guess seeing those having those encounters is

1036
01:17:20,140 --> 01:17:22,140
Has been the fuel for the fire

1037
01:17:22,620 --> 01:17:29,740
Right on. I love it. Yeah, this has been great. We've we've laid out a whole comprehensive story

1038
01:17:30,300 --> 01:17:33,980
a lot of side aspects to this to this topic

1039
01:17:35,100 --> 01:17:37,580
guys the Sun the Sun like

1040
01:17:38,140 --> 01:17:41,500
the medical system and doctors being told to

1041
01:17:41,500 --> 01:17:47,260
Tell their patients avoid the Sun in my opinion is a Hippocratic sin when you consider

1042
01:17:47,900 --> 01:17:52,220
What max is laid out in this episode all the mechanisms the

1043
01:17:53,260 --> 01:17:55,500
The context that's called evolution

1044
01:17:56,060 --> 01:17:57,500
all the

1045
01:17:57,500 --> 01:17:59,980
you know the ways these studies and

1046
01:18:00,540 --> 01:18:03,100
Things can be manipulated to point the other way

1047
01:18:03,660 --> 01:18:04,860
to

1048
01:18:04,860 --> 01:18:10,140
to form another belief that's contrary to what nature has in store for us

1049
01:18:10,140 --> 01:18:11,180
so

1050
01:18:11,180 --> 01:18:13,660
It's our job to spread this message

1051
01:18:14,300 --> 01:18:16,300
one talk at a time and

1052
01:18:17,260 --> 01:18:18,620
If you have any

1053
01:18:18,620 --> 01:18:22,700
Final parting words any words you'd like to share for my audience?

1054
01:18:23,260 --> 01:18:24,620
That would be good. Yeah

1055
01:18:24,620 --> 01:18:25,180
Yeah

1056
01:18:25,180 --> 01:18:31,660
So I guess my advice would be is to make the effort to build your solar calis if you're if you're going to

1057
01:18:31,900 --> 01:18:36,380
Get deliberate sun exposure and get in the sun like kenford's doing then

1058
01:18:36,380 --> 01:18:40,380
The actual onus is on you to use the sun properly and that involves

1059
01:18:41,100 --> 01:18:45,340
Regulating your circadian rhythm it involves getting in that sun in in the early morning

1060
01:18:45,340 --> 01:18:49,740
So you're getting plenty of red and and and infrared it involves

1061
01:18:50,300 --> 01:18:51,340
avoiding

1062
01:18:51,820 --> 01:18:57,740
Eating a bunch of refined seed oils rich in omega-6s get those out of your diet eat

1063
01:18:57,980 --> 01:19:04,700
Fresh seafood wild-caught seafood eat saturated animal fats so you're reducing your likelihood of of

1064
01:19:04,700 --> 01:19:07,100
reducing your likelihood of of of burning

1065
01:19:07,820 --> 01:19:15,100
Get out of of artificial light and cover up when you're when you're under artificial lights when I was working in the emergency department

1066
01:19:15,420 --> 01:19:17,100
I'd have my

1067
01:19:17,100 --> 01:19:21,980
Obviously i've been wearing my scrubs, but i've i've got my cardigan on so my my arms are covered

1068
01:19:22,220 --> 01:19:27,820
I have a scrub cap on so my head was covered. I have my uvex blue light blue light booking glasses

1069
01:19:28,140 --> 01:19:31,420
So I would that would be my getup when I was working in in in the hospital

1070
01:19:31,420 --> 01:19:35,100
so cover yourself from from artificial light and

1071
01:19:36,460 --> 01:19:42,140
Do all these things that will build your melanin so you can and then gradually expose yourself. So

1072
01:19:42,780 --> 01:19:44,460
and we this is the

1073
01:19:44,460 --> 01:19:48,780
Essentially the advice that people need to think about is that the the finer your

1074
01:19:49,580 --> 01:19:51,580
your skin is so

1075
01:19:51,820 --> 01:19:54,060
the people with very very pale skin because

1076
01:19:54,700 --> 01:19:59,580
That is a risk factor for developing melanoma is people with very very pale skin red hair

1077
01:19:59,580 --> 01:20:02,300
You need to titrate your uv exposure

1078
01:20:03,020 --> 01:20:04,780
based on your

1079
01:20:04,780 --> 01:20:09,900
Your Fitzpatrick skin type so the paler you are the less proportional uv

1080
01:20:10,220 --> 01:20:14,300
You can afford to get before going inside going in the shade because we talked about

1081
01:20:14,860 --> 01:20:17,900
sunscreen and sunglasses aren't aren't useful or

1082
01:20:18,620 --> 01:20:22,220
Shouldn't be the go-to but what you need to use is shade you to use

1083
01:20:22,780 --> 01:20:24,780
Go inside when you've had enough uv

1084
01:20:24,780 --> 01:20:29,500
So it's safe for you to use that red and ir window as much as you can

1085
01:20:29,900 --> 01:20:35,660
And then slowly progress into the uva and uvb gradually progressively to build your solar

1086
01:20:36,220 --> 01:20:41,740
Solar calus and it might only be five minutes if you're really atrophic and you really you know

1087
01:20:41,900 --> 01:20:44,940
Like roll them out of all the rings you might only need

1088
01:20:45,500 --> 01:20:50,960
To start at five minutes then 10 minutes and it's just a progressive overload and and the key is consistency

1089
01:20:50,960 --> 01:20:54,480
Because again, the sun is a hormetic stressor just like doing chin-up

1090
01:20:54,720 --> 01:21:01,360
So you or any other form of exercise you need to be consistent and you need to slowly gradually progressively load load up

1091
01:21:01,520 --> 01:21:04,080
And that's that's how you can use the sun sun safely

1092
01:21:04,080 --> 01:21:08,960
So my advice would be that it takes effort. It takes intentionality use it safely

1093
01:21:09,200 --> 01:21:14,160
But really address those lifestyle factors that we talked about that are likely to be underlying why?

1094
01:21:14,720 --> 01:21:20,480
People are developing skin cancers and look if you if you want to learn more we are i'm about to launch a 30 day

1095
01:21:20,480 --> 01:21:27,680
A circadian health course that's going to be starting in november, which is got some basic lessons. We're mostly talking about circadian

1096
01:21:28,380 --> 01:21:31,600
Regulation, we're not going to be doing as much on the solar calus yet

1097
01:21:32,080 --> 01:21:33,680
But that that will come later

1098
01:21:33,680 --> 01:21:39,840
But it's going to be a kind of supportive environment to help people walk through the circadian lifestyle changes

1099
01:21:40,400 --> 01:21:43,600
And if you want to follow my work, i've got a podcast as you mentioned

1100
01:21:43,920 --> 01:21:48,080
Ken food is called the regenerative health podcast on youtube and the spotify spotify apple

1101
01:21:48,080 --> 01:21:54,340
Uh podcasts and you can follow me on twitter. Dr. Max doctor. Sorry max gulhain mt

1102
01:21:54,660 --> 01:21:57,540
Or instagram doctor underscore max underscore gulhain

1103
01:21:57,940 --> 01:21:59,940
And we've got an event

1104
01:22:00,020 --> 01:22:03,140
That we're working on at the same time which is called regenerate

1105
01:22:03,300 --> 01:22:07,620
And that's my vision of how we're going to move medicine and we'll move health forward

1106
01:22:08,020 --> 01:22:10,980
And it's based on circadian and quantum health

1107
01:22:11,540 --> 01:22:14,260
animal-based diets and regenerative farming

1108
01:22:14,260 --> 01:22:19,940
So we're working on that. We've just got our first five videos up on our youtube page

1109
01:22:19,940 --> 01:22:24,180
You can go to regenerate os or I can give you the link can but that might be the easiest

1110
01:22:24,580 --> 01:22:30,100
And that's something that we'll be we'll be doing in the future so you can watch some some talks from jelal's got a great talk

1111
01:22:30,100 --> 01:22:36,500
About introduction to quantum and circadian biology. So yeah, those are my links. Yeah, and thanks for having me on

1112
01:22:37,780 --> 01:22:40,180
It was a pleasure having you on. All right guys

1113
01:22:40,180 --> 01:22:46,900
This was this was great. I loved having this talk very much needed conversation to just fully unpack

1114
01:22:47,700 --> 01:22:48,980
this whole

1115
01:22:48,980 --> 01:22:52,260
Notion of the sun causes skin cancer, right? So

1116
01:22:52,900 --> 01:22:57,300
Without further ado, i'll see you guys on the next episode of the lighthouse podcast

1117
01:22:57,300 --> 01:23:09,300
Cheers