1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:14,080 Do you have a child that is gender confused? 2 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:20,720 Are you the parent of somebody that is either identified as transgender using different pronouns 3 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:24,920 or some other type of gender confused? 4 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:28,400 Just propaganda being shoved down your kids' throats. 5 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:33,520 I created the Biblically Parenting Gender Confused Children Support Group for parents 6 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:34,680 just like you. 7 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:36,800 The support group is completely free. 8 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:42,640 We meet monthly and you are able to connect with other like-minded Christian parents that 9 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:48,800 are struggling with how to parent children that are gender confused. 10 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:53,640 They're getting all sorts of nonsense brought to them by the world and I want to help connect 11 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:58,720 parents that are going through similar struggles and be able to tackle this issue through a 12 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:00,560 Biblical worldview. 13 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,680 If you are interested in joining this group or know somebody that might be interested 14 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:10,920 in this group, head on over to faithfullyengaged.com and there's more information about the support 15 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:11,920 group there. 16 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:15,320 I have a link down in the description below. 17 00:01:15,320 --> 00:01:19,680 Welcome back everyone to another episode of Faithfully Engaged. 18 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,880 Today we're going to be talking a lot about church. 19 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:29,240 Most of you in the audience are either Christians or are fairly sympathetic to go into church 20 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:34,440 so I'm going to get more and more into that topic today with my guest, Dub. 21 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,680 So Dub, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself? 22 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:39,680 Okay, sure. 23 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:40,680 Hi. 24 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:42,200 My name is Dub Carracher. 25 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:48,320 I am a retired pastor and author of a new book called What Is Church? 26 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:49,320 As you said. 27 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,440 I'm from Arkansas originally. 28 00:01:52,440 --> 00:02:01,000 Grew up back in, well, the Jesus movement, which you have probably seen the movie or 29 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:02,000 heard about. 30 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:06,480 I gave my life to Jesus when I was 15 years old. 31 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:14,160 Had grown up in the church prior to that, mainline denominational church and really came to have 32 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:18,560 a solid relationship with Christ at that point. 33 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:26,840 You know, for the next three years or so, had a great time with Jesus and was in a band. 34 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:33,920 We traveled around the country singing Jesus music and just having a good time with God. 35 00:02:33,920 --> 00:02:42,920 And went to college and had sort of a negative experience there with some Christian folks. 36 00:02:42,920 --> 00:02:49,200 And so lost my faith for a little bit or I guess questioned, I guess. 37 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:56,600 Today we would call that deconstructing our faith and did that for about 12 years. 38 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:02,680 Just decided, hey, God, I know you're there, but you're bugging me. 39 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:03,960 So you leave me alone. 40 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:05,680 I'll leave you alone. 41 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,200 God did not keep his in my side. 42 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:12,640 Yeah, I kept my side of bargain or I tried to God never made that bargain. 43 00:03:12,640 --> 00:03:19,160 So later on, got into the entertainment business, met my wife, Pam, doing that. 44 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:26,760 We've been now been married for 45 years and she too was a Christian who was kind of away 45 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:28,520 from God. 46 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:34,080 And in the process of all that, God showed us his love in a really powerful way and we 47 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:38,440 understood that he loved us and wanted us back. 48 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:47,280 So we recommitted ourselves to him and have been more or less faithful ever since. 49 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:54,480 Like I said, I became a pastor later on in life, pastored for about 17 years and was 50 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:55,480 a businessman. 51 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,360 I've done a lot of different things today. 52 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:07,360 I'm obviously an author have written the book, but also I run a nonprofit ministry dealing 53 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:15,000 primarily with the persecuted church, a specific people group in Central Asia and the Middle 54 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:19,720 East travel a lot for that. 55 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:27,160 And I'm just happy to be here and talk about church because the reason I wrote this book 56 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:34,680 is I really, I love the church and I know that a lot of people struggle with church 57 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:35,680 these days. 58 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:39,680 And the people that grew up in the church or maybe especially people that grew up in 59 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:45,240 the church and wonder what is this thing all about and do we even need church? 60 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,360 And if so, what is it? 61 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,240 So that's kind of my backstory. 62 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:58,320 Yeah, no, and what you just said there at the end, I would add that especially those 63 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:03,480 that have been in the church, you mentioned the deconstruction movement. 64 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:09,560 There's just a lot of that going on, especially in you talk about the Jesus movement. 65 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:14,920 My generation, I feel like deconstruction movement is probably a much more relevant 66 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:15,920 thing. 67 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:21,280 And anyways, we see that common with people that I used to grow up listening to different 68 00:05:21,280 --> 00:05:24,360 music things that are out of the faith. 69 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,960 It just seems to be happening a lot. 70 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:36,880 So let's start with church, you know, people, especially in the United States typically 71 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:40,600 are going to like, okay, I can kind of know what church is. 72 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:44,160 Why is it important to define what church is? 73 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:46,440 So what's your kind of answer there? 74 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,640 What exactly is church? 75 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:54,280 Well, I think it means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. 76 00:05:54,280 --> 00:06:00,000 As I said, I grew up in one of the standard denominations. 77 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:07,560 And then when the Jesus movement came along, we dropped all of that. 78 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:09,120 I was a teenager. 79 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:11,400 I was 15 years old. 80 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:16,960 And a lot of my friends ended up following Christ around the same time. 81 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:22,800 And the idea of denominations became very unimportant to us. 82 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:29,240 So we began, I guess that began my whole search about what is church. 83 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,840 I thought I knew what it was growing up. 84 00:06:32,840 --> 00:06:37,160 And then I got a whole different idea. 85 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,880 I found out that the church was a lot larger than what I understood. 86 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:47,120 And I think the reason this is important is because if, especially if you've grown up 87 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,560 in church, you sort of have your idea, this is what it is. 88 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:56,280 I grew up thinking, well, I'm a Christian, you know, and I meant that I didn't look 89 00:06:56,280 --> 00:06:57,280 in back on it now. 90 00:06:57,280 --> 00:07:03,280 I guess I meant that more in a cultural sense, you know, like I'm a Christian, I'm Jewish, 91 00:07:03,280 --> 00:07:05,640 I'm Muslim, whatever. 92 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:11,840 But without really the understanding of the relationship with God part of it. 93 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:18,040 And today, a lot of people are really struggling with this, I would say, especially those 94 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:24,080 who grew up in evangelical churches, there's a lot of young people that are like, wait 95 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,280 a minute, what is this all about? 96 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:31,480 And if this is all there is, why do I really need to be part of this? 97 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:37,240 So that's why I wanted to go back to what did Jesus and his disciples think about it? 98 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,800 Why did Jesus even start the church? 99 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:42,000 What is the church? 100 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:43,200 What is its mission? 101 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:44,720 What is its purpose? 102 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,160 What are we here to accomplish? 103 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:53,280 And take that from the Bible, take that from the words of Jesus, take that from history. 104 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:57,320 What have we seen the church be like throughout history? 105 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:02,000 And as time goes along, you know, is there an end of the world? 106 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:07,080 And if so, what is the church's place in that? 107 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:13,640 It causes us all, I think, when we look at the scriptures and look at the history and 108 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:19,600 look at the church globally, universally, it causes us all to stop and think, wait a 109 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,560 minute, what is this that I'm involved in? 110 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:25,640 And a lot of people have been hurt by churches. 111 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:30,040 They've been disappointed by leaders who have done all sorts of crazy things. 112 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,120 We know all the history. 113 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:37,680 And I wanted to take this from a positive point of view, not revisiting all the ills 114 00:08:37,680 --> 00:08:42,680 of the church, because I think everybody, you know, has a pretty good handle on that, 115 00:08:42,680 --> 00:08:46,640 especially even people that are outside the church, they can tell you everything that's 116 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,720 wrong with the church. 117 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:54,160 But let's go back and look at what it genuinely is. 118 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:59,680 And that's what I'm trying to do in this book, because I want people, we talked about the 119 00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:05,320 deconstruction movement, I want people as they're looking at, okay, well, this is the 120 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,920 faith that I grew up with. 121 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,160 Is this what I really want to be a part of? 122 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:14,800 Do I even need to be a part of a church? 123 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:15,800 What does that matter? 124 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:22,840 I want them to have a solid foundation that they can start from rather than just, well, 125 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,680 these are my feelings and these are what my friends think. 126 00:09:25,680 --> 00:09:31,880 And here's what me and my experts say, because a lot of times me and my experts get us in 127 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:36,040 trouble, especially when our experts get a little bit off track. 128 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:43,040 And if you've, you know, if you've followed, like you were talking about some strong personalities 129 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:50,720 or, you know, leaders in the church, and then you've seen them go off the rails and you've 130 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:56,720 seen people get hurt, you think, well, wait a minute, what, why do I even need all of 131 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:57,720 this? 132 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:02,280 Is there something solid to hold on to here? 133 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:12,440 Yeah, well, I had some fairly recent conversations about the importance of a foundation and not 134 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:16,080 centering it, like you mentioned, on feelings. 135 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:17,640 Feelings are not a bad thing. 136 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:23,600 God made us to have feelings, but feelings can be fleeting feelings can be off, and we 137 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,640 need to have something much more foundational. 138 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:33,120 And that's why as Christians, believing scripture is so important, because that's that foundation 139 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:37,720 doesn't change, whereas my thoughts and feelings very much can change. 140 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:44,440 So when when we're looking at scripture, when we're looking at Jesus and the apostles and 141 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:51,120 just the beginnings of church, what, what was kind of the foundation there of that beginning 142 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:52,320 church? 143 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,080 And yeah, why, why was it important? 144 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:58,080 Why wasn't it important that Jesus made made a church? 145 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:04,760 Well, I think Jesus understands that, well, Jesus was here for a short period of time, 146 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:05,760 right? 147 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:07,240 He was basically here for three years. 148 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:12,400 He told he showed the disciples what God was like. 149 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:21,240 And then he showed them how they should follow God in and follow and believe in him and follow 150 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:28,560 God, and he showed them what what he what God expected us to do here on earth. 151 00:11:28,560 --> 00:11:33,520 Then when Jesus went back, I mean, Jesus came and he announced the kingdom of God is among 152 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:34,960 us, right? 153 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:41,720 When Jesus went when Jesus died was crucified, it was resurrected and went back to heaven. 154 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:43,960 The kingdom of God didn't go with him. 155 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,940 He left the kingdom of God here on earth among his disciples. 156 00:11:47,940 --> 00:11:50,200 And that is what the church really is. 157 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,480 We are the representatives of the kingdom of God. 158 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:54,680 We are God's people here on earth. 159 00:11:54,680 --> 00:11:59,040 And just as Jesus said, hey, if you look at me, if you want to know the father, just look 160 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:04,040 at me, you know, I do everything that the father asked me to do. 161 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,520 He instructed his disciples to do that. 162 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:07,640 He showed them how to do it. 163 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:14,680 He sent them out two by two, you know, to do the same kind of ministry that he was doing. 164 00:12:14,680 --> 00:12:17,640 And he told us to wait for his return. 165 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:24,080 He ascended into heaven, he gave the disciples a charge and he said, and many, you know, 166 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:28,120 by that time there were hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people who were following 167 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,880 Christ who would later become known as Christians. 168 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:39,400 And so he gathered together in the upper room, the power of God came upon them on the day 169 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:40,800 of Pentecost. 170 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:45,960 In the book of Acts, it gives us a whole pattern about the church and what they were up to, 171 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:46,960 what they were doing. 172 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:51,440 They were meeting house to house, sharing meals together, praying for one another, going 173 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:57,480 out and sharing the word of God with people, ministering to the people in their communities 174 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:04,040 and demonstrating the love of God in real practical ways to people and the salvation 175 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,840 that is found in Jesus Christ. 176 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:08,800 And that's what is the church. 177 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:13,880 And Jesus said, I will establish my church, I will build my church and the gates of Hades 178 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:15,520 will not prevail against it. 179 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:21,000 Well, in the last 2000 years, Hades has pushed back pretty hard, you know. 180 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:28,680 And so it's good to know what is the church, what are we supposed to be doing. 181 00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:32,000 And we need this gathering of the people of God. 182 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:37,920 God, the whole thing about what Jesus did was he established our relationship with God, 183 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,880 the Father, but he also established a relationship with us. 184 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,000 He calls us his family. 185 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:49,240 He says that, you know, the Bible says that in Christ, we are the whole family of God 186 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:50,960 that's gathered together. 187 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:52,880 And we have a mission here on this earth. 188 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:54,480 He gave us purpose. 189 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:55,760 He gave us things to do. 190 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:57,320 We're supposed to evangelize. 191 00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:59,520 We're supposed to worship him together. 192 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,760 We're supposed to love one another. 193 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:08,280 There's all sorts of things that he says, this is what my church will be doing. 194 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:12,480 And that's what we need to be about while we're here. 195 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,160 You know, everybody wants to know what's my purpose? 196 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:16,160 Why am I here? 197 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,840 What am I, what am I doing here on earth? 198 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:23,280 God never intended for us to work that purpose out alone. 199 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:28,400 He intends us to work it out as brothers and sisters in Christ in the church. 200 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:33,200 You know, you're using some language there of togetherness. 201 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,280 We're not supposed to do this all alone. 202 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:38,320 We're supposed to assemble together. 203 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:46,720 It's something within our current culture, I would say, especially post COVID, that 204 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:51,760 not that that's completely gone away, but you see a lot more isolation. 205 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:59,480 Now, staying, staying at home and doing things, not going out with other people. 206 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:06,040 Why is it so important in the church that it's not just me and Jesus and, you know, 207 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:11,960 I just read my Bible and pray all day, but why is it important that we have other people 208 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,160 that we do assemble together? 209 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:15,880 Why is that part so important? 210 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,960 Well, it was, it was certainly important to Jesus. 211 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:21,520 You know, he picked his 12 disciples. 212 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:25,240 He spent three years with them and taught them everything he intended. 213 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:29,040 Then he told them to go and do the same thing. 214 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:33,480 It's important for us because we actually do have an enemy. 215 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:39,600 Like I said, Jesus said, I will build my church so the gates of Hades will not prevail against 216 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:40,600 it. 217 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:44,520 He said, I came to destroy the works of the devil. 218 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:46,520 You know, is there an actual devil? 219 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:47,520 Sure. 220 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:49,200 You know, is there an actual God? 221 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:50,840 Yes, there is. 222 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,560 And we can look at the world around us. 223 00:15:53,560 --> 00:16:00,240 If you can't see the effects in the world that says that there is a deep and pernicious 224 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:10,480 evil here operating here on earth and a culture that has been set up by this evil, then I 225 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,840 don't know that you're paying much attention. 226 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,320 And it's hard when you face that kind of evil, when you see that kind of evil. 227 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:22,720 We're never intended to go up against that alone. 228 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:29,800 It's important because Jesus loved us enough to come down here and live among us. 229 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,840 And show us who God really is. 230 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:38,800 And we then in turn need to live together with others. 231 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:40,040 Does that create some friction? 232 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,160 I mean, do we rub off of each other sometimes? 233 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:44,320 Sure. 234 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:51,040 But also it's really difficult for the, it's more difficult for the enemy of our soul, 235 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,440 the devil to pick us off. 236 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:55,880 We can get sidetracked. 237 00:16:55,880 --> 00:17:01,960 I don't believe that, I personally don't believe that you can lose your salvation. 238 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:06,520 If Jesus has saved you, I know some people do. 239 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:07,960 And that's okay. 240 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,680 It's within their right to believe that. 241 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:19,520 But it's harder for that to happen if you are in community with other like-minded believers. 242 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:24,600 You talked about the Bible and that being the foundation, well, it is. 243 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:30,640 But the Bible, just like salvation, belief in Jesus and being saved by him, the Bible 244 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:32,240 also takes a leap. 245 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:38,240 You have to take a leap of faith and say, this is going to be the foundation that I'm 246 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:45,360 going to use as my point of reference in my life for how I'm going to live, how I'm 247 00:17:45,360 --> 00:17:48,560 going to believe, how I'm going to operate. 248 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:56,040 A lot of people question whether the Bible is accurate or not, you know, and you hear 249 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,800 all sorts of arguments about that. 250 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:04,840 So about that, yeah, it does require a leap of faith and just as believing in Jesus requires 251 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:06,400 a leap of faith. 252 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:12,120 And it's, I think God knows it's helpful for us to have people around us who look, take 253 00:18:12,120 --> 00:18:19,680 that same leap of faith together and can encourage each other when we come under these kind of 254 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:20,680 attacks. 255 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:25,360 It's a tough world we're living in today. 256 00:18:25,360 --> 00:18:30,160 And if we believe the Bible that Jesus is going to return and we kind of read the end 257 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:35,040 of the book, well, it's going to get even tougher. 258 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:36,720 My parents went through World War II. 259 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,680 I can't imagine what that must have been like. 260 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:44,600 We have very short memory spans, you know. 261 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:49,960 We tend to think of things only in terms of what we've actually experienced. 262 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:55,080 But throughout history, people have been through all sorts of difficulties and they need one 263 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:56,080 another. 264 00:18:56,080 --> 00:19:01,240 I spend a lot of time with the persecuted church, with people in the Middle East and 265 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:05,280 in Central Asia, where it's illegal to be Christian, basically. 266 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,000 It's illegal to have faith in Christ. 267 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,520 And believe me, you need other people around you. 268 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:14,280 You don't do that by yourself. 269 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:20,920 It's helped shape my view of the church and the need for the kind of community that we 270 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,920 have. 271 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,000 This is not a given. 272 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,640 The love of God, that's just not a given. 273 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:33,560 You know, I work with a lot of Muslim background believers. 274 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:42,120 And in Islam, there is no, the Quran doesn't say anything about God being a God of love. 275 00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:47,040 That says a lot of other things about God, but it doesn't say that he's a God of love. 276 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:52,480 And the idea that there is a God who actually loves us personally and is invested in our 277 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:59,400 lives personally, and not just an angry God that we have to try to appease by our, you 278 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,840 know, obedience or good works or whatever. 279 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:03,840 That just doesn't exist. 280 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:07,600 And it doesn't exist in other religions either. 281 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,680 It's one of the things that makes Christianity unique. 282 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:18,160 And there's so many commands in the scripture that we're to love one another, serve one 283 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,520 another, prefer one another. 284 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,680 We need all those things happening in our lives. 285 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,680 We need to be engaged in that ourselves. 286 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:33,000 And there's sometimes we need to get some of that back when we're going through tough 287 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:34,000 times. 288 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:41,040 Kind of along these lines about what the church needs to be, what it was intended to be, and 289 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:46,280 some of the benefits there of being alongside other believers. 290 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:54,280 How has the church Christians just in general, how have we kind of failed here recently? 291 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:59,080 Like what are ways that Christians in the church as a whole are not being like Jesus 292 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:00,080 currently? 293 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,840 Well, love is the big thing, right? 294 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:09,880 And I don't know that Christians, and I'm talking about Western Christians or Christians 295 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:14,000 here in the United States, I don't know that we do a very good job of showing the love 296 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:15,400 of Christ. 297 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:21,760 It's like we forgot what it was like to not know God or to be away from his presence 298 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:28,400 or to be ignorant of God and who he is, of his holiness and all those. 299 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:33,720 We're really quick to show judgment to people. 300 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:39,640 We love John 3.16, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whoever 301 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:43,120 believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 302 00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:50,120 But we forget the scripture after that, John 3.17, where it says, for God to not come into 303 00:21:50,120 --> 00:21:54,880 the world to judge the world, the Son did not come into the world to judge the world 304 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,720 but that the world might be saved by him. 305 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:04,680 There is a judgment coming, but it never says that Christians are supposed to be doing the 306 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:05,680 judging. 307 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,240 And as a matter of fact, we're to show the love of God. 308 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:13,240 It's the kindness of God, the Bible says, that leads us to repentance. 309 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,000 We're not even very kind. 310 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:21,400 I mean, just go on X these days, you know, used to be Twitter, just go on X these days 311 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:27,440 and look at the Christians, you know, going at it with each other and not just with each 312 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:36,040 other with people who are not believers, don't share the same values that we do, don't have 313 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,400 the same understandings that we do. 314 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:47,920 And man, unkind is probably one of the weakest words I could use about some of the ways that 315 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,080 we interact with other people. 316 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:54,520 How is that demonstrating the love of Jesus? 317 00:22:54,520 --> 00:23:00,720 The only people Jesus ever got upset with and was ever unkind with were the religious 318 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:08,640 people who were trying to put rules and regulations on people that weren't even, you know, in the 319 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:10,920 scriptures. 320 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,200 I think that ought to give us all a pause as Christians. 321 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:21,880 If we look at who Jesus was, what he did, how he served people, how he spoke to people, 322 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:27,560 how he loved them, how he touched them, you know, and healed them and did those sorts of 323 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:28,560 things. 324 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,800 And then we look at the church today. 325 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,960 Is that what we're doing? 326 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:36,800 It needs to be. 327 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:41,920 And I think those are some of the ways that we're kind of really missing the boat. 328 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:48,520 We're quick to point the finger at other people and not recognize that, listen, I'm a sinner 329 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:54,120 and I needed a savior to save me from that sin. 330 00:23:54,120 --> 00:24:01,160 And I think the church needs to do a much better job of that and not be so critical, 331 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,600 harsh, judgmental. 332 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,240 People get enough of that in the world. 333 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:07,240 We don't need to be. 334 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,680 We don't need to be piling on. 335 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:17,920 You know, it's an interesting topic here that especially when we're dealing with the outside 336 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:28,200 world, not within within the church, that there is the there is truth standing on on 337 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:37,320 truth is important and doing that in a kind way is it can be difficult, but it's important. 338 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:44,920 And I think what you pointed out there of I'm a sinner, there's that there's that humility 339 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,720 of showing that I don't have it all figured out. 340 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:49,640 Like yes, this is wrong. 341 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,280 This is sin that we all have. 342 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,320 But there's good news. 343 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,560 Christ is here and we believe on him. 344 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,400 He can forgive us of our sins. 345 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:01,400 That's that's that good news. 346 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:02,400 That's that gospel. 347 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:08,440 And we need to make sure that we're not, you know, we're not the we're not the good guys 348 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:09,440 here. 349 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:10,680 We're not the ones that figured it out. 350 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,680 Christ is as long as I have a prideful stance. 351 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:19,480 Yeah, you're not going to have a very kind response. 352 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,760 Yeah, that's really true. 353 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:32,160 You know, I think I think it would help if we were more honest about who we are and what 354 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,080 our failings are. 355 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:43,080 You know, abortion has been a big topic of conversation for years and the church, you 356 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:47,720 know, has a stand on that as we should. 357 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,680 We you know, we're we're life people. 358 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,240 We're not death people, right? 359 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,880 And you were just referring to being able to speak the truth with kindness. 360 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,560 The Bible instructs us to speak the truth with love. 361 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:06,800 Well, you know, I'll just tell you a quick personal story. 362 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:12,200 I told you that there was that 12 years where I was where I walked away from God and was 363 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,040 kind of doing my my own thing. 364 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:21,560 Well, during that time, and this was back when abortion, Roe v. White had passed, but 365 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,320 abortion was not legal in every state. 366 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:32,040 And we went to the doctor and the doctor said, Hey, you know, she's pregnant. 367 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,120 This was a problem for us. 368 00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:35,680 My parents were Christian. 369 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:36,680 Her parents were Christian. 370 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:44,200 Matter of fact, her dad was big in one of the churches and and the the doctor convinced 371 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:49,840 us that we could get this taken care of easily and that it was not really a human life. 372 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,680 It was just a blob of matter at this point. 373 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:58,160 And so we went to a neighboring state and had the abortion. 374 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:02,920 And unfortunately, it went really badly for her. 375 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:10,400 And well, for us, I guess, and she saw some things that she shouldn't have seen. 376 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,360 And it tore her up. 377 00:27:12,360 --> 00:27:13,720 And then that tore me up. 378 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,160 And now I'm living with guilt. 379 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:21,600 We're both living with guilt thinking, Well, we've killed our own child. 380 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,800 You know, I I've been a pastor. 381 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:32,640 I've told this story a lot because there are so many people who have been through this 382 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,040 and thought that they were doing the right thing. 383 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,800 We certainly thought we were doing the right thing. 384 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:42,080 And then you have to deal with all the emotional baggage on the other side of that. 385 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,280 The reality is very grim. 386 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:50,120 And, and there's a lot of guilt and a lot of shame that goes with that. 387 00:27:50,120 --> 00:27:55,640 I think we it's good when we can be honest and say, Listen, I've been there. 388 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,800 And you know, I found I found salvation in Jesus. 389 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,040 I found forgiveness in Jesus. 390 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,720 I found acceptance in Jesus and love. 391 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:12,800 And that he would even forgive even that he would forgive of me. 392 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:17,880 And it was that love that drew me, drew me back to Christ. 393 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:25,120 And, and that's that's a lot better than standing there and shaking our fist at people and saying, 394 00:28:25,120 --> 00:28:26,600 you know, well, this is wrong. 395 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:32,760 You can so there's the whole thing of speaking the truth and love and being honest and not 396 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:37,600 being hypocritical about our own condition. 397 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:40,520 Yeah. 398 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:45,200 Well, and again, that that was obviously a very, very powerful story. 399 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:51,880 And we read, I mean, we read throughout scripture, there's all sorts of murderers and bad things 400 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,080 that that happened in scripture. 401 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:59,280 And again, it's not about them being these great people that did it all on their own. 402 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,120 It's faith in God. 403 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:05,680 God has the power to save save people that did not deserve it. 404 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,160 And you and I and no one else deserves it. 405 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:13,080 And I think that messaging there is just so important that it's not about it's not about 406 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:13,880 how great I am. 407 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:20,560 It's about it's about how great God is and that humility again to share that your story 408 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:27,440 and all of our stories of sin that speaks that speaks to people that, hey, we've got 409 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:32,400 a real loving God that despite my own evil still forgives us. 410 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:37,560 That that, like you said, that's much powerful than just pointing out like you're terrible. 411 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:42,480 Like it's that that doesn't that doesn't do a whole lot for us to just simply state things. 412 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,440 And especially in the manner in which that that we can kind of have that vitriol towards 413 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:47,440 one another. 414 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:54,120 You know, I was in the entertainment business and most of my friends were gay. 415 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,160 And I love them dearly. 416 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:05,760 I went through the AIDS epidemic, you know, back in the 80s when they were the my friends 417 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:11,440 were calling it the gay plague, you know, and they were scared to death because they 418 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:16,840 were dying and getting very sick and no one knew what it was. 419 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:21,560 And then the church, unfortunately, stood up and said, well, you know, this is God's 420 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,560 rep duration against you all. 421 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:30,840 And those were my friends and I lost some of my my dearest friends through all of that. 422 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,880 The church did not handle that very well. 423 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:41,240 Why was that sin so much worse than my sin or anybody else's sin? 424 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,040 I think that's that's what we do as human beings. 425 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:49,680 We tend to kind of parse that and go, well, you know, I'm my sin's not as bad, you know, 426 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:55,200 I'm just I'm just a liar or, you know, whatever it is. 427 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,840 And and we kind of parse that out. 428 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:06,640 But we, you know, especially today with all the gender confusion and, you know, you've 429 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,800 got to try to get everybody's pronouns right and all that kind of stuff. 430 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,840 I think Christians, we have a real responsibility. 431 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:20,600 Yes, we need to speak the truth, but we need to do it in love and we need to do it with 432 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:21,600 humility. 433 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,920 Like you said, I think that's a big thing. 434 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:29,880 A lot of the church just has seems to have lost their humility. 435 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:37,480 And I think some of the leaders that we listen to, they they have their they have their own 436 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:45,040 agenda, I would say, are we building God's kingdom or are we building our own kingdom? 437 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:49,840 So I think we have to be careful about who we're listening to. 438 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:57,320 And one of the ways that I try to use as a sort of reminder is, is this person humble? 439 00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:59,280 Is this person teachable? 440 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:04,520 Or, you know, are they projecting something else? 441 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:10,120 And I think that's why it's important for us to be together and have mutual accountability 442 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:11,560 in the church. 443 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,920 You need somebody that can look you in the face and go, Hey, man, you're being a jerk. 444 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:16,920 What are you? 445 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:18,080 What are you doing? 446 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:23,720 You know, if you don't have friends in the church that can love you like that and tell 447 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:30,880 you that, hey, you're you're wrong, you know, then we can easily get into more trouble than 448 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:32,400 we really need to. 449 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:37,440 And we can hard and we can really hurt and damage people. 450 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:43,880 You know, kind of along these lines, I think we all have people, those that are that are 451 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:48,040 Christian, have people that you listen to that are outside of the church or read books. 452 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:53,000 I mean, like you're you've got a book coming out and there's certainly nothing wrong with 453 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,800 people reading books or listening to people that are outside their church. 454 00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:04,720 However, as you're saying, there's no there's no reason to not have that local body like 455 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,920 that's that's a requirement that we need to have that local body there. 456 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:13,760 So what would you say to somebody that's like, OK, that's all fine and good. 457 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:23,080 But I I just do I just do church online is going to church just doing that online. 458 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:27,880 Do you think that suffices for that kind of church commitment there? 459 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:34,080 No, I don't because you don't have real relationship. 460 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,120 It's it's I don't know. 461 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:41,800 It's it's sort of like it's sort of like dating, you know, online. 462 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:46,400 I mean, everybody connects now online, right? 463 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,480 You're looking for somebody online. 464 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:54,400 And that is fine and it goes to a certain point. 465 00:33:54,400 --> 00:34:00,080 But if you're actually as a Christian, if you're going to follow through and you're 466 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,520 you know, you're thinking, well, I need to get married at some point, I need to have 467 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,960 someone that I can spend my life with. 468 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,920 I need to maybe there's a family that God has for me. 469 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:17,320 At some point, you have to actually have a real in person face to face kind of meeting 470 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,320 that because you can be anything you want to be online, right? 471 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:25,640 You could I can present any sort of image that I want to online. 472 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:30,960 But when you actually are together with someone in person, well, there's some reality there. 473 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:38,000 And I just I don't think that I mean, there's nothing wrong with listening to podcast, watching 474 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,920 services online, you know, whatever. 475 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,040 But you cannot live as a Christian. 476 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:51,640 You cannot live your whole life online and think, OK, I'm, you know, as the scripture 477 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:57,800 says in Hebrews, you know, we're not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. 478 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:08,160 Well, I can assemble myself digitally together, you know, but but can can I actually be together? 479 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:12,800 It's like when you go off to college and you think you got it all together and then suddenly 480 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:19,440 you have a roommate who has different, you know, is different from you and you've got 481 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,120 to put this together. 482 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,880 Are we going to have a relationship or not? 483 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:30,080 I mean, with a with a roommate, you can just simply request, hey, I need somebody else 484 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,560 or whatever if it's not working out. 485 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,200 But you know, it doesn't work like that in the kingdom of God. 486 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:39,120 We're going to be spending eternity together. 487 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:45,600 And I think trying to do this online is not ultimately beneficial. 488 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:50,560 I mean, you talk about covid, that was really tough for everybody. 489 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:57,040 And Kylie, there were, you know, there were churches that took all sorts of stands on 490 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:58,040 that. 491 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:03,640 There were Christians that took all sorts of stands on that. 492 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:10,720 And and ultimately, you know, Jesus is in charge of the church, right? 493 00:36:10,720 --> 00:36:19,320 And we have to we have to be obedient to Jesus and what he's telling us to do. 494 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:23,720 And that may be different for different people. 495 00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:30,600 But it's some point if you sat at home in your pajamas on, you know, and and did church, 496 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:36,400 you know, every Sunday for two years, and you were perfectly fine with that. 497 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:42,880 At some point, you're going to have to establish real relationships with people again. 498 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,640 Life, life moves on even after pandemics. 499 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,960 And sometimes we get stuck, I think. 500 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:54,680 And so, you know, is at that point, what do you do? 501 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:59,840 Well, you pray and you go, OK, God, you know, what do you want me to do? 502 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:01,720 Your your word is pretty specific. 503 00:37:01,720 --> 00:37:05,800 I'm supposed to be an actual fellowship with other people. 504 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:11,640 We're supposed to be doing things together like, you know, sharing the gospel together. 505 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:15,720 We're supposed to be loving one another, serving one another. 506 00:37:15,720 --> 00:37:21,720 We're supposed to go and take the good news to all the world. 507 00:37:21,720 --> 00:37:23,640 How am I going to do that? 508 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:25,640 How would you have me do that? 509 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:34,440 And then and then do it, do what God is telling you to do. 510 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:40,960 You know, kind of looking back at the the COVID timeframe, the church I'm currently going to, 511 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:46,720 I did not attend during the very beginning kind of March 2020. 512 00:37:46,720 --> 00:37:54,080 But the decision that they ended up making was to they closed down kind of initially 513 00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,520 when everybody was was closing down. 514 00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:04,600 But they never chose to do any live streaming or anything like that. 515 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,680 Not saying that churches that did do that were necessarily wrong. 516 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:14,600 But the reasoning I read through this after we joined, I really liked the reasoning was 517 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:20,720 they wanted us not meeting together or at the time them meeting together. 518 00:38:20,720 --> 00:38:22,640 They wanted that to hurt. 519 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:29,760 They wanted that to not be natural and to feel like we can just tune in on our phones or on the computer 520 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,040 and that will replace meeting together. 521 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:38,280 So the way they did that was for however many weeks that they were off, they're like, 522 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:39,880 we want you to miss each other. 523 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:47,640 We want this to not be an enjoyable, easy time where I can just sit on the couch and get used to that. 524 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:52,320 So when they did meet together, it was like it was a celebration. 525 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,040 Like we were back together. 526 00:38:55,040 --> 00:39:03,240 And I really appreciate it kind of learning about that when I came in of how serious that this church takes meeting together. 527 00:39:03,240 --> 00:39:06,520 It is that important. 528 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:10,080 And yeah, there's great resources online. 529 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,560 All sorts of great sermons. 530 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:19,480 There's some sermons I've listened to that I really appreciate when they say like this is a this is an online resource for you. 531 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,600 But please find your own church to go to. 532 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:28,640 But yeah, you can learn all sorts of things out there, but you cannot neglect meeting in person, like you said. 533 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:32,400 So I really appreciate that answer. 534 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,400 Yeah, I think that's terrific. 535 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,480 I mean, I like the approach that your church took. 536 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:43,560 As I said, I spent a lot of time and people with other parts of the world with Christians and other parts of the world that. 537 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,480 Listen, they didn't stop meeting. 538 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:51,240 I mean, if if you're in Iraq or you're in. 539 00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:57,600 You know, Syria or somewhere and all you can do is meet together as a small group. 540 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:01,360 You know, there's no large group available. 541 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:10,040 You meet in somebody's home. You may or may not be able to sing songs because it might attract attention. 542 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:19,160 To what you're doing and the authorities might show up, but you meet together, you share the word together, you pray for 1 another. 543 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:25,480 You take communion together. What do you know you do the normal things that a church does. 544 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,640 But when COVID came around. 545 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:35,320 I mean, and it wasn't because of ignorance. It wasn't like, oh, well, we don't understand what a pandemic is. 546 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,560 That it's just that that's life to them. 547 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:48,080 And to not do that is not life. And so they they never quit doing it. 548 00:40:48,080 --> 00:41:01,040 You know, did there's I mean, was the where their repercussions for that? Sure. Sometimes there were. I mean, it was tough. But I think here in the West, we. 549 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:05,360 We have so much and we can easily jump online or. 550 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:10,880 You know, however you get on your phone or whatever you want to do. 551 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:15,360 That's just not an option for people in a lot of other parts of the world. 552 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:20,480 Especially those that are that are in places that are. 553 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:26,160 Hostile, you know, to the gospel of Jesus Christ. If we could get. 554 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:30,800 A better idea of the world that we live in. 555 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:37,200 And what it means to be a Christian, not just here in the West, not just here in the United States. 556 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:43,840 But what it means to be a Christian as part of the the broader community of Christ in the world. 557 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,400 I think it would. 558 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:53,520 It would help us a little bit to to get out of kind of our I me my. 559 00:41:53,520 --> 00:42:00,720 Kind of thinking and the scriptures pretty clear that, you know, the I me my thing. 560 00:42:00,720 --> 00:42:06,720 Is not really the way that God wants us to go. 561 00:42:06,720 --> 00:42:13,200 You know, for those that are interested in more of the global church, like you said, you've traveled a lot. 562 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:20,880 You've really been hands on to a lot of very persecuted places towards the church. 563 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:25,920 But I'm thinking of somebody that's, you know, kind of just. 564 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:33,040 They've got kids there, they've grown up in their same hometown, and maybe they don't even have the resources to necessarily. 565 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:39,760 Travel today anyways to to go to a more hostile place towards Christianity. 566 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:45,760 How could that person, how could they get a little bit more connected and maybe have a deeper understanding. 567 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:52,240 Of some of the struggles that other Christians and different parts of the world have. 568 00:42:52,240 --> 00:42:56,240 That's a good question and I think the answer to that is one of the. 569 00:42:56,240 --> 00:42:59,680 One of the things that the church is to do together. 570 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:07,840 You know, the gospel, Jesus told us in the in the Great Commission to go into all the world and preach the gospel all creation. 571 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,320 Well, you don't have to go to the other side of the earth to do that. 572 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:12,400 I mean, you can go to the grocery store. 573 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:16,080 You can you can go to your neighbor's house. 574 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:21,760 But one of the things that that I think that God gathers the church together to do. 575 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:35,440 Is that that that have any any church, I think that's being obedient to God and to that commandment needs to be engaged in in the church in the world in some way. 576 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:39,920 And that's something that we can do, you know, we like you say a lot of individuals. 577 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,080 I just don't have the resources. 578 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:44,480 I may be disabled. 579 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:46,480 I can't, you know, get around. 580 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:54,080 There's a lot of reasons why people can't go to other nations get involved in that way. 581 00:43:54,080 --> 00:44:02,720 But there are one of whether you have a church that meets in your home or whether you're part of a large denomination. 582 00:44:02,720 --> 00:44:11,600 However, God has you connected with people in your church that needs to be part of what the church is doing. 583 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:17,600 There are many different ways that we can get engaged with people around the world. 584 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:22,080 A lot of that you can do online as a matter of fact. 585 00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:29,280 There's if ask God to ask God to put put someone on your heart. 586 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:38,320 The way I got involved in doing this was that our church back in the 90s decided that listen, 587 00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:42,480 there's a bunch of people who have no access to the good news at all. 588 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,200 They've never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. 589 00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:48,960 Most some of them have never even heard the name of Jesus Christ. 590 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,240 And what are we what are we supposed to do about that? 591 00:44:52,240 --> 00:44:55,040 What is our response to that great commission? 592 00:44:55,040 --> 00:45:01,040 And we just began to pray and ask God and we did that together as a church and ask God, 593 00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:02,880 will you have us to get engaged? 594 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:04,960 What are we supposed to do? 595 00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:12,080 And in doing that, God began to point out to all of the people in the church as we prayed. 596 00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:18,320 We started out with, well, we think we're supposed to do something with Muslim peoples. 597 00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,840 Okay. Where were we supposed to do that? 598 00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:24,800 And we began to look at the different areas of the world. 599 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:28,960 And then as we prayed, God began speaking to people. 600 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:35,280 And it's like, well, you know, I have a sense that maybe we're supposed to be doing this in this region of the world. 601 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:39,840 And okay, now let's look at people who are not engaged. 602 00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:45,120 I mean, you can look, you can get on the internet and look there easily and find unengaged people, 603 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:49,280 unreach unengaged people groups and just pray over that. 604 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:56,960 And then when you find that find other people that are doing that similar kind of work, 605 00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,520 it doesn't require a lot of resources. 606 00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:03,360 It doesn't require a lot of travel necessarily. 607 00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:07,600 We have plenty of people in our church that have never traveled overseas. 608 00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:14,000 And yet they feel very connected to the people that we are serving and trying to reach 609 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,360 because they've been hearing their stories for years. 610 00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:22,480 And then we find out that there are some that those people are here. 611 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,840 Some of them have immigrated here to the United States. 612 00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:28,480 And they're going to college in my town. 613 00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:33,920 You know, I'm three minutes from Duke University here where I'm located. 614 00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:39,200 Well, how many, how many foreign students do we have at Duke University? 615 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:40,880 There's tons of them. 616 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,920 And there's lots of them that have never heard the gospel. 617 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:48,160 And so you can invite people over to your house for a meal. 618 00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:53,360 You know, invite a college student who's not from this country who doesn't have any friends, 619 00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,560 invite them over for a meal, that doesn't take much doing. 620 00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:04,720 It's intent, I think, more than anything is, okay, this is what Jesus told me to do. 621 00:47:04,720 --> 00:47:06,960 I don't have the first idea how to do this. 622 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:10,240 Let's start praying about this and let's see what God will do. 623 00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:18,320 And then we can engage in meaningful ways right from where we are. 624 00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:21,840 So you don't have to travel around the world to do this. 625 00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:23,840 That's what God's called me to do. 626 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:28,240 But that doesn't mean that's what God is calling anybody else to do, 627 00:47:28,240 --> 00:47:30,400 or much less everybody else to do. 628 00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:36,160 Yeah, no, I love that answer because it's just so simple. 629 00:47:36,720 --> 00:47:41,120 And there's really no excuse to not be involved in some way, 630 00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,600 even if it's just praying. 631 00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:47,360 Right when you hear this podcast is giving a prayer for 632 00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:50,800 an unreachable people group or something like that. 633 00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,600 So yeah, you can be involved from your own bedroom, 634 00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:55,920 but just you have to do something. 635 00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:58,960 It's not going to just come up and hit you in the face. 636 00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:00,400 You got to be actively involved. 637 00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:05,120 Well, Doug, I really have enjoyed this conversation. 638 00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:09,760 And I know that those that are listening to this could really benefit from 639 00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:14,080 being able to read your book and know more about it. 640 00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:19,920 So how can they find out more resources about your book and to be in contact with you after the show? 641 00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:23,600 Sure. So this is the book. 642 00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:25,600 It's, let's see if I can get it in there. 643 00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:26,800 It's called What is Church? 644 00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:35,440 It's going to be released to booksellers on, buy booksellers on January 16th. 645 00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:39,280 You can order it online at any of your favorite booksellers, 646 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:46,720 Barnes & Noble or Amazon or anywhere. 647 00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:51,280 All you've got to do is just look up What is Church? 648 00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:53,120 And it should pop right up. 649 00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:59,920 If you want to engage directly, or if you wanted to get a Christmas present or whatever, 650 00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:02,960 you can go to my website. 651 00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,000 My website is dubcaraker.com. 652 00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:09,360 Let me put that up so you can see the dub character part. 653 00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:11,520 Like, sorry, not go with cameras. 654 00:49:12,720 --> 00:49:13,600 Dub character. 655 00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:16,080 And you can engage with me there. 656 00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:23,440 I, if you want to get a book from the website, you can order one there and I will send you a signed copy. 657 00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:26,880 But you can also engage with me there. 658 00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:28,320 I've got my blog there. 659 00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:32,640 There's all my contact information. 660 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:42,160 I would love, I just love to talk to people and I love to help people who are curious or wanting, 661 00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:43,360 you know, to know more. 662 00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:49,360 I'm very happy to be a resource to anybody that I can. 663 00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:55,600 I've been doing this a long time and I know a lot of people and I know a lot of organizations. 664 00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:59,120 I'm just, I'm a connector. 665 00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:00,720 That's one of my gifts. 666 00:50:00,720 --> 00:50:04,160 So, yeah, I would love to see you at dubcaraker.com. 667 00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:06,320 I would love to see you there. 668 00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:11,440 And like I say, by the book, it should be in bookstores January 16th. 669 00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:15,200 But, you know, I mean, who retards copies anymore, right? 670 00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:26,000 So, and my publisher will not let me release the audio version until it has been in bookstores for six months, 671 00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:29,440 unfortunately, because I know a lot of people prefer to listen. 672 00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:36,960 But if you go to my website, you can at least find some things, some audio resources there. 673 00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:45,600 But yeah, I'd love to engage and be a help to any individual or any church that's interested. 674 00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:48,080 Great. 675 00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:54,560 No, I definitely will link all of that information down in the show notes below and dub. 676 00:50:54,560 --> 00:51:00,480 Yeah, thanks again for coming on and it was a great discussion. 677 00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:01,600 Thank you, Johnny, so much. 678 00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:02,800 I really appreciate it. 679 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:05,520 This is this is very helpful to me. 680 00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:10,400 I did this because God has put I'm old. 681 00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:12,400 God has put younger people on my heart. 682 00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:19,760 I've been I've spent my life working with, you know, teenagers, 20 somethings, 30 somethings. 683 00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:23,360 That's that's really where my heart is. 684 00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:25,520 My wife and I were foster parents. 685 00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:29,520 We've had a lot of people, a lot of young people in and out of our lives. 686 00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:38,400 And so thank you for having this this program and helping get the good news out to people. 687 00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:41,760 Absolutely. 688 00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:43,360 Yes, absolutely. 689 00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:46,400 Appreciate you being on here and sharing about your book. 690 00:51:46,400 --> 00:52:02,320 And thank you again to everybody that tuned in today and we will catch you on the next episode.