1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:12,840 Alright, well welcome back to another episode. 2 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:15,360 We have an interesting topic today. 3 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:22,600 I'm sure everybody listening that has been on Jerry duty has very fond memories of being 4 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:24,840 on Jerry. 5 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:29,520 And another interesting thing about this guest, if my mom is listening, she'll be proud of 6 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:30,640 this. 7 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:36,540 My mom taught me growing up that there is an OBU best and OBU West. 8 00:00:36,540 --> 00:00:44,560 And I went to the OBU West of Oklahoma Baptist University and my mom went to OBU, OBU best 9 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:47,000 that watched all Baptist University. 10 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,560 And my guest Katrina went to a West all Baptist University. 11 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:54,560 So Katrina, why don't you tell the listeners a little bit about yourself? 12 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:55,560 Sure, absolutely. 13 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:56,560 Yeah. 14 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:57,560 And it's funny. 15 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:04,880 And I was on another podcast episode where the host was reading where I graduated and 16 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:12,160 he said a graduate of Ocheeta Baptist University. 17 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,800 He did that intro though after we had recorded it. 18 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:21,120 And I'm glad that he sent me the preview because I was like, you know, and he was from, I think, 19 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:22,120 maybe Michigan. 20 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:28,720 So anyway, when I went back and listened to the podcast after the fact, he just completely 21 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:29,720 eliminated the name. 22 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:33,920 It's just one of those, I tried to spell it phonetically. 23 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:35,760 It's like wash at all. 24 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:41,280 But yeah, if you're not familiar, it looks like a doozy to pronounce. 25 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:46,960 But yes, I did graduate from WashTall with a degree in professional accounting. 26 00:01:46,960 --> 00:01:48,400 Did public accounting for a while? 27 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:53,640 I've been a financial planner and advisor, more specifically a compliance officer for 28 00:01:53,640 --> 00:02:02,560 a local wealth management firm here in Hot Springs, Arkansas for the past 16 years now. 29 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,240 Been married for 27 years. 30 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:15,320 My husband is a chaplain and was a pastor and for many years before he began doing the 31 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:17,560 chaplain work. 32 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:26,200 We have five children, two biological, three adopted, two of the adopted ones came from 33 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:27,200 foster care. 34 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,280 The third one more or less kind of adopted off the streets. 35 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,800 That's a whole other story. 36 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:39,920 But then more recently, like you mentioned, I wrote a book, published at the beginning 37 00:02:39,920 --> 00:02:47,680 this year, and it was after last year I had had this experience where I was called to 38 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:52,840 serve on jury duty for a murder trial. 39 00:02:52,840 --> 00:03:00,600 And I won't completely give everything away, but the short story is I ended up with contempt 40 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:03,040 of court charges. 41 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:07,280 A mistrial was granted in the original murder trial. 42 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:13,800 And I had my own hearing and was faced with possibility of jail time. 43 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:21,240 And it was five months of hard, just a really trying time on my life where I was kind of 44 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:29,440 simultaneously juggling significant heartbreaking situations with a couple of my kiddos. 45 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:33,120 And got to the other side of it and I was like, you know what, I'm gonna write the... 46 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:37,640 I'm gonna tell my side of the story here. 47 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:47,520 Yeah, so with this whole process, let's kind of start in just some basics, maybe not necessarily 48 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,680 just with your individual story. 49 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:55,560 But overall, through your process and what you've learned, what are some of the... 50 00:03:55,560 --> 00:04:01,440 What are just some of the flaws of the kind of the jury system that we have that maybe 51 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:05,600 a lot of people that maybe haven't been in a jury or haven't been involved in a tough 52 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:07,920 case don't quite understand? 53 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:08,920 Right. 54 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:13,160 So, I mean, that's a little bit of a hard question to answer. 55 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:19,160 I can tell you one of the problems I personally had with the jury system. 56 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,800 Again, part of this is me and my personality. 57 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:31,880 But what I discovered that as a jury member, you're very much... 58 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:39,320 You're expected to sit, listen, do as you're told, ask no questions, go with group think. 59 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:47,440 And that I'm very much of an analytical, want to know the whole story, the full picture. 60 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:54,360 I view the responsibility as a huge one that you are kind of tasked with the responsibility 61 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:55,680 of really determining... 62 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:59,400 In this case, I mean, we're talking about murder in the first degree charge. 63 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,160 I mean, this was... 64 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,280 And with a... 65 00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:12,480 Everybody knows that when you serve on a jury, you're not allowed to seek out information 66 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:17,880 about the case outside of the courtroom and you're not allowed to talk about the case. 67 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,960 Even a month, this is a four-day trial. 68 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:26,800 And so, even us as jurors, when we would be in the jury room, you're not allowed to speak 69 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:33,800 about it when witnesses are giving testimony. 70 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:38,080 You can't raise your hand and say, can I ask a question? 71 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,240 You can't do any of that. 72 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:47,920 And I really struggled because it became very clear that information is very much cherry 73 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:56,560 picked for the jury and it's given to you in a very emotionally manipulative way. 74 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,560 I've watched... 75 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:03,200 I'm sure everybody has one time or another watched a TV show or a movie where there's 76 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:09,520 a court scene and you see all of the theatrics that the attorneys put on. 77 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:13,360 I really, truly thought that was just made for movies. 78 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:18,680 And I got in there and sat down for opening statements and I thought, oh my goodness, 79 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,840 these people have a minor in theatre or something. 80 00:06:22,840 --> 00:06:30,560 And I'm like, you know, and that really kind of bothered me because I was like, I mean, 81 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:35,360 I understand they're trying to hold our attention, but I'm not here to be entertained. 82 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:39,040 I only want the facts. 83 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:45,000 And it's kind of like, I'm not one that can be emotionally manipulated. 84 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:52,080 I mean, maybe for some people, a fact or a piece of testimony, if it's told in a certain 85 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:58,000 way, maybe they believe it or I don't know, but I'm very much just giving me the facts. 86 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:05,000 Things like the prosecution displaying a large blown up picture of the victim's autopsy 87 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:08,080 body for us to view during closing arguments. 88 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:09,920 I mean, is that necessary? 89 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:10,920 You see what I'm saying? 90 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:18,720 Like, you know, pulling a victim, the victim, a family member, a daughter of the victim 91 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:26,720 up to testify who was estranged from her father for five years, no communication or been with 92 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:32,920 him at all, has no ability to testify to the event or his character or anything. 93 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:40,160 It's just simply for us as a jury to see a family member emotionally upset. 94 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:41,160 You see what I'm saying? 95 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:47,080 It's like, I don't doubt that this individual went through, regardless of whether they were 96 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:48,760 estranged, that's irrelevant. 97 00:07:48,760 --> 00:08:02,520 They, having their father killed, that's going to be traumatic, but not a credible witness. 98 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,920 Only to play on the jury's emotions. 99 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,040 You see what I'm saying? 100 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:18,120 So, my problem is, you know, if you are the judge in a case, right, you have the ability 101 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:23,200 to ask questions, you have the ability to... 102 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:32,480 So in this particular case, there was 17 witnesses called for the state prosecution, 17 witnesses 103 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:36,000 that did nothing but basically say the same thing over and over again. 104 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:37,000 She shot her husband... 105 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:38,640 Oh, I didn't even tell you what the case was. 106 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:42,160 It was a 60-year-old woman who had shot and killed her husband. 107 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:45,240 So that's the case. 108 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,280 And she's being charged with first-degree murder. 109 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:56,640 First-degree, the statute is, we had to be able to say beyond a reasonable doubt that 110 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:01,640 she intended to kill her husband. 111 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,320 Her claim was self-defense. 112 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:14,320 So 17 witnesses for the state that all basically say she shot him, which there was never anything 113 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:15,480 debatable about that. 114 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:21,200 None of them, though, are able to prove that she intended to. 115 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:25,800 Well then, so then it's the defense's turn. 116 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:33,120 And there's 14 witnesses, but every time one gives up to speak, prosecution objects, judge 117 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:37,320 sustains, and they're not allowed to speak. 118 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,080 Only three of her witnesses were able to speak. 119 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:45,360 So we're left as a jury not allowed to know what those witnesses were going to testify 120 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:53,680 about, why it was objected to, and it's kind of like we were given instructions at the 121 00:09:53,680 --> 00:10:02,640 beginning that we as the jury also had the responsibility to judge the witness's credibility, 122 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:09,400 their character, whether it was relative or not. 123 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:17,360 And we did not have that opportunity with nearly all of the defense's witnesses. 124 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:19,600 So I just, I'm like, you know, if you're going to... 125 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:24,120 I felt like we were very much treated as kind of ignorant. 126 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,560 Like there's lots of... 127 00:10:26,560 --> 00:10:35,640 And obviously none of us went to law school, but if you're going to task us with this responsibility, 128 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:43,280 then trust us that we're smart enough to have some common sense here. 129 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:48,400 There's lots of hushed conversations at the bench, and then if they want to hash things 130 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:52,720 out even more, they ask the jury to leave. 131 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:59,960 And I'm like, you know, I mean, should I not be viewed as somebody that can determine relevance 132 00:10:59,960 --> 00:11:06,880 versus irrelevance and be able to make a decision based on the facts? 133 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:08,280 You see what I'm saying? 134 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:12,680 You know, and the whole... 135 00:11:12,680 --> 00:11:16,440 And I'm doing a whole lot of talking here, so you just interrupt me if you have a question 136 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:19,200 or something. 137 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:27,440 But you know, and also the rule about not being able to research the case, those were 138 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:35,360 all rules that were put into place back when really the only access to information a jury 139 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:39,520 would have would be outdated newspapers. 140 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:44,160 You know, maybe hearsay from people on the panel. 141 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:49,800 You know, nowadays we literally have nonbiased factual information literally at the tips 142 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:51,920 of our fingertips. 143 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:58,680 And it's just, you know, I know, so if we just skip forward, so what was my contempt 144 00:11:58,680 --> 00:11:59,680 of court? 145 00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:01,400 What was it that happened? 146 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:03,360 Well, I... 147 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:07,600 So throughout this four day trial, well, I guess, you know, the fourth day is when we 148 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:17,440 deliberated and gave our verdict, you know, so three days worth of hearing this case. 149 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:24,960 We really never learned much about either the defendant or the victim. 150 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:32,600 All we really knew is that she was a 60 year old piano teacher who shot and killed her 151 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:38,520 husband supposedly out of self defense, but anything in the realm of talking about that 152 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,640 self defense was not allowed. 153 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:47,560 As far as the victim, we knew his name. 154 00:12:47,560 --> 00:12:50,440 We knew his age. 155 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:56,760 And we knew that he died by a gunshot and that there were allegations that he was an alcoholic 156 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:57,760 and abusive. 157 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:04,840 But anything in the realm of talking about possible alcoholism or abusiveness was not 158 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:05,840 allowed. 159 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:11,320 What's the rationale between that not being able to be discussed? 160 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:15,240 So here was the thing, of course, after the fact, I'm a researcher by nature. 161 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:21,160 So after the fact, you know, I didn't have a problem at all not researching the case 162 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:25,720 per se because, I mean, sitting there listening to people talk about it for three days, I 163 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:30,320 could guarantee you I could tell you more about the case than anything I could dig up 164 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,560 online. 165 00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:39,520 But like I said, what I didn't know was those two, the two main people, the defendant and 166 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:40,520 the victim. 167 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:45,280 And I was like, and I'm not quite answering your question yet, I'll circle around to it. 168 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:51,280 But I was like, you know, I just, that night before I was like, before we're going to go 169 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:52,280 in for deliberation. 170 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:58,080 I was like, you know, I wonder if I just put his name into this court search engine, if 171 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,680 anything will come up, I put his name in there, nothing came up. 172 00:14:01,680 --> 00:14:05,600 That was the extent of what I had done. 173 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:13,520 We go back that fourth day after closing arguments, go back to deliberate. 174 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,000 We ended up after we had deliberated. 175 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:21,160 I, and in the book I write, I'm very transparent with how. 176 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:25,880 How difficult of a process it was. 177 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,200 I was very emotional during deliberation. 178 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:35,520 And I, in one thing I talk about in the book is I'm not sure whether it was having to utter 179 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,760 the words guilty about another human being. 180 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,240 I mean, it just really fell heavy on me. 181 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:45,840 But anyway, after we were done, you know, and I was, and I'm very transparent in the 182 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,160 book about how emotional I was and stuff, I made the offhanded comment. 183 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:56,280 I said, I don't know about you guys, but it really bothered me that so many of the defendants' 184 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:57,920 witnesses weren't allowed to speak. 185 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,920 And I wish we knew more about the victim. 186 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:05,400 And I tried to look him up, but I didn't find anything. 187 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:07,280 And that was kind of the extent. 188 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:11,880 You know, we ended up voting unanimously, not guilty on first degree, but guilty on second 189 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:14,880 degree. 190 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:20,840 Go out there, give our verdict and sentencing, I think. 191 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,000 You know, praise Jesus, that's over. 192 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:27,320 Three days later, another juror goes back to the courthouse and files a juror misconduct 193 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:31,920 complaint against me. 194 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:38,120 And then the defense attorney grabbed hold of that and wanted contempt of court against 195 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:39,800 me in a mistrial. 196 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:41,840 So that's what happened. 197 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:47,280 Okay, so why did they not allow any of that? 198 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:54,880 So then after the fact, I then, when we went to the mistrial hearing, as far as, you know, 199 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:58,040 so we all got summoned back to court. 200 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:04,200 All the jurors, all the defense, prosecution, witnesses, we all have to go back to court. 201 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,840 And we're like, oh my goodness, what's this about? 202 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,280 They pull us jurors in one at a time. 203 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:10,280 They saved me for last. 204 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,160 So I'm like, this is about me. 205 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:19,720 Get in there and this defense attorney just absolutely slanders me, lies about me, rips 206 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:21,440 me up one side and down the other. 207 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:23,440 I include the transcript in the book. 208 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:30,120 It was a horrific experience that I kept hearing him say during that trial arguing that the 209 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:35,880 state fought so hard to disallow 404B evidence. 210 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:38,920 So of course I go home and I'm like, what in the world is 404B evidence? 211 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:39,920 And look it up. 212 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:49,200 Well, it's evidence that is related to an individual's basically their character based 213 00:16:49,200 --> 00:17:02,120 on prior acts and that it can be disallowed in criminal cases. 214 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:13,040 The whole idea behind it is, so okay, maybe he had the history and character of being 215 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:20,600 an alcoholic or abusive, but was he abusive and drunk in that particular moment? 216 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:27,640 My thing is his history absolutely is relevant because if you've got somebody who has been 217 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:35,520 abused, there can be that moment where maybe they've been abused worse before than they 218 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:41,920 have this time, but it just, it finally, you know, they snap, you know, they don't necessarily 219 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:46,600 plan out a murder, but that kind of heat of the moment kind of thing. 220 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:54,640 But so that now, that's been changed now that, and it varies from state to state, but I'm 221 00:17:54,640 --> 00:18:00,800 pretty sure now, and this is without me doing lots of research that they can't do that in 222 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:11,040 self-defense motives for defendants, but that obviously is something recent. 223 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:17,520 You know, so, so yeah, that was so all of those individuals obviously had something 224 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:25,760 to testify about either prior incidences or his character or maybe even her character 225 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:33,680 in general, and they didn't allow any of it, you know, and I'm kind of like, you know, 226 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:43,240 all of those people could have absolutely been completely incredible, not relevant, 227 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:50,280 but, you know, I don't know, you know, we weren't given the opportunity to make that 228 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:57,120 judgment, but yet we were tasked with the responsibilities of literally being the judge 229 00:18:57,120 --> 00:18:58,600 in the situation. 230 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:06,080 So anyway, that is a, you know, 15 minute answer to your response there of what, you 231 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,520 know, is wrong with the jury system. 232 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:15,960 There was a lot of nuances to my particular case that was involved in that, that made 233 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,720 it not a cut and dry case where obviously there are some cases out there that are not 234 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:27,120 going to have all these different nuances, but some people may hear my story and say, 235 00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:30,720 you know, well, there isn't a problem with the justice system, you know, jury number 236 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:35,040 11, she was obviously the problem, she didn't do what she was supposed to, and I'm like, 237 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:41,600 I can totally take responsibility for that, but is that one action, me making an offhanded 238 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:49,840 comment after we had already done deliberations, should that is our justice system so fragile 239 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:55,800 that that completely overturns the entire trial? 240 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:57,480 You see what I'm saying? 241 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:04,880 Like even, even when, so when they pulled us off the court, they pulled us off the court 242 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:11,960 all in to determine if I had truly committed misconduct, that there was misconduct, like 243 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:18,400 I said, they pulled all the jurors out one at a time, and they basically asked them if 244 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:21,000 there had been any misconduct. 245 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:28,640 There were only two jurors that had any recollection of anything ever even being said, which certainly 246 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:36,120 goes to say that I obviously was not sitting there in the jury room trying to prejudice 247 00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:41,040 or persuade or you know what I'm saying? 248 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:52,480 But I just realized how much room there is within the justice system for manipulation 249 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,440 and power plays. 250 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:59,680 Like I kind of went in there with this idea that it's all about truth and facts and justice, 251 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:06,920 and I'm like, no, it's about how well you can manipulate rules to your advantage. 252 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:10,000 It was, it left a bad taste in my mouth for sure. 253 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:15,240 You know, when you say that to only to have that, and you talk about manipulation, where 254 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:24,560 my mind kind of immediately goes is like, that if we have a high profile case, and we 255 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:29,800 want to get a mistrial that two people say something like, what if it's not even true? 256 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,800 Well, I mean, and of course, I'm not going to lie on the stand. 257 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:38,680 I said, you know, I mean, I, I mean, I guess I mean, I could have been like, no, I didn't 258 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:39,680 look him up. 259 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:40,680 I didn't say anything. 260 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:41,680 But I mean, I wasn't going to do that. 261 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,080 I mean, I said, yeah, I typed his name in the court database. 262 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:46,640 And I didn't find anything. 263 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:47,640 And that's what I said. 264 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:53,040 And, you know, but the thing that was so bizarre about the whole thing that, you know, I said, 265 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,520 most people who read my story, you know, kind of walk away going, what in the world. 266 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:03,640 So like I said, it was the defense attorney that was the one pushing for a mistrial. 267 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:11,720 Well, like I said, we came back not guilty on first degree and guilty on second degree. 268 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:17,680 By him fighting for a mistrial, he opened his client up to the possibility of first 269 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:19,880 degree murder all over again. 270 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:26,040 So it was kind of like, you know, I'm sitting there in that courtroom like, and he fought 271 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:31,440 harder for my contempt of court charges than he fought for his client through four days 272 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:32,440 of a trial. 273 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,280 And I'm like, what in the world is going on? 274 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,960 Like I don't understand. 275 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:41,760 Like is he just trying to keep his hands in her pockets to drag this out longer? 276 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,920 You know, he was not a public defender. 277 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:45,760 He was a private attorney. 278 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:50,160 So it was just kind of like, you know, and, you know, of course, I ended up having to 279 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:51,640 go get my own attorney. 280 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:59,120 And, you know, I sat down with him and, you know, he said, you know, of course, I just, 281 00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:09,000 you know, the weight of feeling like I was the sole cause, I mean, because obviously 282 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:15,040 there was no maliciousness or ill intent. 283 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:26,000 Like I went in there wanting to do the best I could for both the prosecution and the defense. 284 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,600 You see what I'm like, both the family of the victim and the defendant. 285 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,240 Like I truly, that was my desire. 286 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:37,080 And then to have all of this happen and then to complicate it a little bit, just to all 287 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:45,600 throw this in, another issue was that I knew the judge on a personal level. 288 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:50,640 And so the defense attorney then throws that out in there. 289 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,600 And so he refuses himself and another judge steps in. 290 00:23:54,600 --> 00:24:00,600 And so then to be put in this position where like, oh my gosh, like what in the world is 291 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:01,720 happening? 292 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:10,480 Like, and I was sitting in the first meeting with my attorney and, you know, I'm in tears 293 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,520 and emotional and, you know, because I had written out a statement to read and the judge 294 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,000 would not allow me to read it. 295 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:20,400 And I'm like, I said, I just wanted the opportunity to apologize. 296 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,920 Like, I, like this was not my intent. 297 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:32,800 And, you know, and he said, Katrina, he said, you're not a bad person. 298 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:39,320 He said, you actually are a dream of a juror because it's very apparent you walked into 299 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:47,800 that trial with the perspective of that defendant was innocent unless you proved her guilty. 300 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:55,840 And he said, very few people are actually able to walk into a trial with that perspective. 301 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:57,480 And it was apparent you did. 302 00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:58,960 And which is absolutely the truth. 303 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:04,000 And why I had a problem right from the get go because, you know, not only you kind of 304 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:09,400 have, like I mentioned, almost all of her witnesses not being allowed to speak, but also if people 305 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:17,760 are aware of how it works when you have a trial prosecution goes first with opening statements. 306 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:22,200 And then the defense goes and then the prosecution gets another go at it. 307 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:26,600 And then the prosecution gets first go at all their witnesses and then defense second 308 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,920 turn closing arguments. 309 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:35,480 Prosecution gets first go defense gets to say something then prosecution gets to rebuttal 310 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:36,480 it all. 311 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:37,480 And it seemed to vary. 312 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:42,440 And then also in this case, there were four attorneys for the prosecution and only one 313 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:43,440 for the defense. 314 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,640 So the whole thing like seemed to vary unbalanced. 315 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:54,720 Well, the argument for that was, well, because in our justice system, they're innocent, right? 316 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:55,720 Until proven guilty. 317 00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:03,840 So therefore we give a whole lot more weight coverage, maneuverability or whatever to the 318 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:09,320 prosecution because they're the ones with the burden of proof. 319 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:20,400 Well, the reality is that most people go in there wanting the burden to be on proving 320 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,320 they're innocent. 321 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:31,240 So anyway, you know, my attorney, you know, he said, Katrina, do jurors talk about the 322 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:36,240 case, you know, amongst themselves and probably even with family members and friends outside 323 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,200 the courtroom if it's a multiple day trial. 324 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:39,560 He's like, absolutely they do. 325 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:45,080 I mean, I mean, maybe there are some that are like black and white rules and, you know, 326 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:51,960 they, he said, now, do jurors probably look stuff up about the case and the parties involved? 327 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:57,360 He said, probably most people spend half their day on Google and why not? 328 00:26:57,360 --> 00:26:59,360 He says, it's natural. 329 00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:01,040 You're going to do it. 330 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:07,920 He said, has things that people have found online been brought up during time in the jury 331 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:08,920 room? 332 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,680 He said, probably, you know, it's probably happened. 333 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:19,480 He said, but has another juror come back three days later after unanimous decision and complained 334 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:20,480 about it? 335 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:27,040 He said, never in the history of, you know, at least our county, you know, I can't speak, 336 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:28,040 you know, nationwide. 337 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,640 But he said, no, he said, Katrina, you're a unicorn. 338 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:39,160 He said, and then to have the testimony that was given in the hearing, not only, but then 339 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:47,240 to also the judge decide on a mistrial is, he says, he says, we really don't even know 340 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,240 what to do with you. 341 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,280 Well, I was like, I, my name's Katrina. 342 00:27:53,280 --> 00:28:00,440 My life is just kind of one big train wreck after another. 343 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:10,240 With this fellow juror, did you have any suspicion at all that any, like that did you have any 344 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:11,960 bad blood or anything? 345 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:12,960 Or was this? 346 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:20,000 Well, so that's, that's interesting that you asked that because I did have, like when 347 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,560 we all got called back to court and stuff. 348 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:30,400 And you know, after they put me on the hot seat and I locked eyes with her sitting out 349 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,000 there in the courtroom and it hit me. 350 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:33,960 I was like, it's her. 351 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,120 She's the one that came up. 352 00:28:36,120 --> 00:28:47,280 And so when we were deliberating, I, you know, like I said, it's this is a woman, six years 353 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:48,640 old, shot killed her husband. 354 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:50,640 She'd never, you know, been in trouble before. 355 00:28:50,640 --> 00:29:00,600 She was a piano teacher for her whole life and claiming self-defense and stuff. 356 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,840 When we very first started deliberating our first initial vote that we took, there was 357 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:09,480 actually nine jurors that voted guilty on first degree murder. 358 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,720 When we first did our, before we really kind of then got in and started arguing about it. 359 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:20,680 She was the one that was most vocal on wanting first degree murder and the most reluctant 360 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,560 to back down off of that and go with second. 361 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:33,080 And I disclose a couple of our conversations and, you know, she very much was like, you 362 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:37,160 know, like, you know, what about the victims family and they deserve justice. 363 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,680 And, you know, like, you know, like she would, you know, she talks about an incident where 364 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:46,360 like she passed the defendant in the parking lot and oh my gosh, I can't believe, you know, 365 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:52,600 very much viewed her as like just simply the title of murder. 366 00:29:52,600 --> 00:30:02,120 And then when we got to sentencing, how we decided to handle sentencing was, so the maximum, 367 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:09,640 the maximum sentencing for the second degree murder and there was also an additional charge 368 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:14,280 where, and I think this again, I think it's just state by state, if you kill somebody 369 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:20,640 with a firearm, you can, is an additional charge, which was, you know, ridiculous. 370 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:26,680 Some like so, if you blundered them to death with a mallet, that's, you know, no extra 371 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:32,120 time for that, but you shoot them with a gun, you're anyway, you know, try to make sense 372 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:33,120 out of politics. 373 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:38,160 But so since she had shot him with a gun, there was some, an additional sentencing for 374 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:44,080 that, but combined, the maximum was 40 years. 375 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:48,760 So we decided how we would handle it is we would go around the room and we would just 376 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:55,640 give the number of how long we thought the sentencing should be. 377 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,560 And I mean, I don't know, I don't know about you, but I don't know if you can imagine being 378 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:03,920 that situation, like you're getting ready to say how long somebody ought to spin and 379 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:09,560 we're also, we're talking about a 60 year old woman, you know, like it was huge to me, 380 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,200 like I couldn't understand how these people were like, while we were taking breaks, like 381 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:18,880 talking about basketball and weather, I just, I obviously don't have the aptitude to be 382 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,280 a judge to do that day in and day out. 383 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:28,000 But so we start to go around the room and as we go around the room, it's 20 years, 20 384 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:29,400 years, 20 years, 20 years. 385 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:36,120 So it was obvious and very much in juries, you realize how real the whole group think 386 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:43,400 is like, I'm not a group think person though, I don't have a problem going against grain. 387 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,840 But you could tell like whoever the first couple of people, whatever they said, you 388 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,520 could tell everybody else is like, I'm not going to make waves 20 years, 20 years. 389 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:55,640 Well, it got to her and she said 40 years. 390 00:31:55,640 --> 00:32:01,880 You know, she, like I said, she was very much like they need to be hung, rod in prison. 391 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:09,880 Well, I was the last person to throw the vote out there. 392 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,820 So to counter off, what we were going to do is we're going to take an average of what 393 00:32:13,820 --> 00:32:16,960 everybody said and that would be our sentencing. 394 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:24,400 So the counteract her 40 years, I said zero to basically just nullify that and it keep 395 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:25,400 it at 20 years. 396 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:31,160 So when I did that, I got a really big eye roll from her, you know. 397 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:32,880 So anyway, so I saw all that. 398 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,720 She obviously, she and I had some differences. 399 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:44,520 But here's the thing, I don't think that she went back up there to the courthouse to complain 400 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:50,360 about me necessarily out of a vengeful type attitude. 401 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,800 I honestly don't think she thought all of that was going to happen. 402 00:32:53,800 --> 00:33:00,920 Even what I mean, like I think she just kind of wanted to, I think she probably was in 403 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:05,320 for, you know, and again, I'm jumping a little bit into politics here. 404 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:12,720 I think she's kind of like one of those like mass police kind of people like a Karen, if 405 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:19,360 you may, where it's like she didn't follow the rules and she admitted she didn't follow 406 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:20,360 the rules. 407 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:26,120 And by golly, we got to make doesn't matter if the fact that she quote unquote broke rule 408 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:34,720 had zero, you know, zero implications in anything. 409 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:39,720 Everybody needs to be aware that she broke the rule, you know, like that kind of attitude. 410 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:40,720 Yeah. 411 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:41,720 Yeah. 412 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:47,000 And where your focus on the rule actually causes more collateral damage than the breakage 413 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,000 of the rule would have. 414 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,400 You know, and that's why I say the mass police, you know, it's kind of, you know, and I know 415 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,120 that's not what this episode is about. 416 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,520 But you know, it's like we got to enforce this rule because, you know, it's important 417 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:58,200 because it protects people and saves people. 418 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:04,160 And you don't think about all the collateral damage that this quote unquote rule causes. 419 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:14,960 And, you know, I kind of equate it to, you know, like in school zones, the speed limits 420 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,280 like 20 miles an hour. 421 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,760 For obvious reasons, there could be children running around that's not paying attention. 422 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,360 And so you should go slower. 423 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,640 It's a rule that makes sense. 424 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:31,680 But if you are so focused on not going over 20 that you're just staring at your speedometer 425 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:36,560 to make sure you don't go over 20 and you hit a kid because of it. 426 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:37,560 Okay. 427 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,960 So you completely missed the point. 428 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:42,960 Right. 429 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,640 So it's kind of like those, like I said, the mass police, like, well, I wasn't going 430 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,160 over 20, so I didn't do anything wrong. 431 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:50,160 No. 432 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:51,160 No. 433 00:34:51,160 --> 00:35:00,240 Anyway, so yeah, that's my crazy story. 434 00:35:00,240 --> 00:35:07,120 During your side of things, like, so you're in contempt of court and all of that. 435 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:11,760 How long of a process did that take for your own justice system? 436 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:12,760 Right. 437 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,680 So it felt like 500 million years. 438 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:17,120 It was actually only five months. 439 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:24,280 But the only reason it took five months was because so, and I wrote the book in kind of 440 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:30,200 a diary format to where, so the beginning of the story is April 9th of last year. 441 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,600 And it was actually the day of my daughter's wedding. 442 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:39,520 So I was in the midst of preparing for her wedding when my phone buzzes and I summoned 443 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,600 to jury duty on Monday. 444 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,280 The wedding was on Saturday and I'm like, awesome, I've got to go to jury duty. 445 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:49,880 So that's the start of the story is April 9th. 446 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:59,400 So it was like, and then it was like April 13th or whatever when she came back and complained. 447 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,760 Anyway, in the next week or something. 448 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:09,040 So then I guess they all had their meetings at the courthouse and decided, yep, we've 449 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,840 got a defense attorney. 450 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,880 He's like, yeah, I want contempt to court, I want a mistrial. 451 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,600 We ended up having, we all got called back to court. 452 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:26,680 I think it was like May 12th, I believe, somewhere in there. 453 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:33,120 We got the letter the next week, you know, saying we have to go back to court. 454 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:38,280 And so there was like a couple of weeks of kind of like this anxiety of like, what in 455 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:40,400 the world, you know, like what's going on? 456 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:45,200 So I had a couple of weeks there of, so we went back to court, we go back to court, 457 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:46,680 like I said, I think it was like May 12th. 458 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,120 So it was almost a month after the trial. 459 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,880 And then at that hearing, that's when the judge says, yep, you're in contempt to court. 460 00:36:52,880 --> 00:37:02,560 And she gave me a summons to show cause for June 27. 461 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:09,160 So that was then another six-ish weeks of, you know, where I was meeting with my attorney 462 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:14,480 and really just kind of feeling like my world was falling apart. 463 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:18,080 Like I completely took myself off all social media. 464 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:23,840 You know, there was these horrible news articles that were like, don't Google my name, like 465 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:28,400 just don't Google my name. 466 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:34,960 I've had another podcast where they posted links to the articles with the podcast. 467 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,440 I'm like, it just makes no sense to turn. 468 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:43,520 But you know, like I said, I'm a financial advisor, a compliance officer, no less, in 469 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:44,680 a small town. 470 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,800 You know, I mean, people talk, right? 471 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:56,640 And it, when it's just a very, it was a very difficult time for me because I was also juggling 472 00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,400 some really heart-wrenching stuff with my kids. 473 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:04,280 And so I just kind of stepped, I mean, didn't step away from life. 474 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,920 And when you read the book, you'll see what I'm talking about, but as far as, you know, 475 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,400 disengaged from social media and that kind of thing. 476 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:16,120 But then so we go to court on June 27th, and I'm thinking, I just want it over with. 477 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:17,120 You know what I mean? 478 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:31,840 Well, so we go and my attorney objects to the fact that the prosecution, the state, did 479 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:37,080 not bring any witnesses. 480 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,920 And the judge agrees and continues the case. 481 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:45,280 And it all, and I spell it all out and include the court transcripts and stuff in the book. 482 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:46,640 It all happened very, very fast. 483 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:53,760 And it was like, you know, he was wanting like the juror that complained about me. 484 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,520 Like he wanted a chance to cross-examine her. 485 00:38:57,520 --> 00:38:59,120 Which I'm kind of like, yeah, absolutely. 486 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,800 I'd love to have her on the hot seat as well. 487 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,160 I said, but can we say never mind? 488 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:06,840 We don't object to no witnesses. 489 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:08,640 Like seriously, I just want this over. 490 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:10,240 But you know, it all just happened real fast. 491 00:39:10,240 --> 00:39:14,280 She continued it and reset it for August 3rd. 492 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:24,480 So I'm like, you know, another six weeks of just, you know, like that pit in your stomach. 493 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,800 You know, in the whole entire time, I have my attorney telling me that I could face a 494 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,120 year in jail. 495 00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:35,120 And you know, to sit in a room, you know, when you're like, I mean, a professional, 496 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:41,160 you know, a Christian woman, you know, a leader in the church, like a year, like it, like 497 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,480 the oxygen left the room, you know what I mean? 498 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:55,680 Like, and trying to like, finding myself trying to plan and prepare for like the worst was 499 00:39:55,680 --> 00:40:02,040 just, it was kind of like, I kind of felt like I was in this alternate reality. 500 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:10,120 So then, you know, we, we have, you know, finally do have my, my hearing on August 3rd. 501 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:14,640 So that's April, May, June, July, August. 502 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:15,920 That's only four months. 503 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:21,720 So another month goes by and I'll just kind of leave a little bit of a cliffhanger. 504 00:40:21,720 --> 00:40:29,560 The reason why I say it was five months is because I really didn't feel like I was, even 505 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:34,760 though, you know, I didn't have to spend any time in jail, you'll have to just read the 506 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:38,280 book to find out what my quote punishment was. 507 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:43,440 And you'll say, seriously, but I didn't feel like it was true. 508 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,320 Everybody was like, aren't you so glad it's over and all that? 509 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:54,760 Well, there was still this supposed mistrial that for this defendant and I didn't like 510 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:59,800 any time her case was talked about in the newspaper, my name was talked about in the 511 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:00,800 newspaper. 512 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:06,840 So I didn't feel like it was going to be completely over for me until it was over for her. 513 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:11,320 And that didn't wrap up for another month, but I'll leave a cliffhanger out there and 514 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:17,240 say that there actually never was a mistrial and just let you wonder what in the world 515 00:41:17,240 --> 00:41:23,320 happened then of yet another like try to scratch your head and figure out this quote justice 516 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:24,320 system. 517 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:31,280 And then if you want just another twist in the story, I'm actually have developed a pretty 518 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,640 close relationship with the defendant. 519 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:39,720 We talk regularly, she's actually giving one of my son's piano lessons via Zoom from prison. 520 00:41:39,720 --> 00:41:47,720 So anyway, it's, you know, life takes us on on crazy journeys sometimes. 521 00:41:47,720 --> 00:41:55,480 Absolutely, which I'm imagining a year ago, you know, at your daughter's wedding. 522 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:56,480 Right, right. 523 00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:01,920 Yeah, like, yeah, a year ago, I was still hadn't even had my my hearing yet. 524 00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:03,920 And yeah, so. 525 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:04,920 Goodness. 526 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:09,680 Well, I know this was like, like what's said to you. 527 00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:10,960 You're kind of the unicorn. 528 00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:17,160 This was a very specific example that there's really not a ton of other cases like this 529 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:18,160 out there. 530 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:19,160 Right. 531 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:25,120 But for somebody that's listening or just people that you hear in general for jury duty, 532 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:29,480 that generally they're going to just happen and not be that big of a deal. 533 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:38,360 But how can people be not solve this, but be aware and maybe be more of an advocate for 534 00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:42,040 a more just justice system? 535 00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,840 What can people do to be a little bit more involved? 536 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:46,160 Oh, goodness. 537 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:51,000 I think that you just have to kind of go in. 538 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:55,760 If you do have jury duty, especially if it's something, you know, like a murder type case, 539 00:42:55,760 --> 00:43:03,480 go in with the right head on your shoulders and perspective that I was naive and not realizing 540 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:10,920 there was as much manipulation and power plays that go on and just being aware of that. 541 00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:14,480 And for goodness sake, if you're going to look something up, don't mention it. 542 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:16,480 Don't do that. 543 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:24,000 You know, and the thing that was that was frustrating for me, like I knew that at the 544 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:33,080 end of the day, if I had found anything, I knew that I, you know, you are forced to 545 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:38,760 consider only what is presented in the trial for the case. 546 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:42,280 So and I didn't have a problem doing that. 547 00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:50,320 Like, and that was one of the things that made the verdict and sentencing so difficult 548 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:58,000 for me is because really the reality is I was even struggling with second degree murder. 549 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:07,200 Like, like my heart wanted to go with manslaughter or completely acquitter. 550 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,760 Like that's what my heart and my emotions wanted to do. 551 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:20,480 But when I addressed the facts presented in the case, I was forced to come to the decision 552 00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:22,320 of second degree murder. 553 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:29,120 And so I was like, you know, here, I was like, okay, here, I did everything I was supposed 554 00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:30,120 to do. 555 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:38,840 Like I did and I believe that everybody in that jury room did come to the verdict and 556 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,000 sentencing based only. 557 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:47,400 But then to say my statement that was kind of a negative introduction of evidence somehow 558 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:54,440 persuaded or prejudiced them with outside information was just completely absurd, you 559 00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:55,440 know. 560 00:44:55,440 --> 00:45:08,440 But I guess just, you know, I realized the law is much more complex than what I originally 561 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:13,840 kind of, I mean, we all know on some degree that the law is complex. 562 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:19,960 But then when you really get down into it, it is so complex. 563 00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,480 And I know that it's that way for a reason. 564 00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:28,560 But then, you know, like I said, you have these individuals that take these rules that 565 00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:38,240 were intended to bring about justice, but instead take those rules to pervert justice. 566 00:45:38,240 --> 00:45:39,440 And it... 567 00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,240 So how do you fix it? 568 00:45:42,240 --> 00:45:51,480 You know, the sad answer is as long as we have prideful, arrogant, power hungry people 569 00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:56,280 moving the chess pieces, we're not going to fix it. 570 00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:00,360 In other words, as long as people is involved, it's going to be a broken system. 571 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:04,400 But you know, and I'm kind of like, you know, what if I had family, you know, like what 572 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,800 if I had discovered that this guy had all kinds of domestic abuse records? 573 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:13,280 You know, what if that had popped up? 574 00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:19,800 I would have been forced to even struggle even more with the fact that that couldn't 575 00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:27,160 be considered in my decision making. 576 00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:30,920 And I really feel like, you know, and here was another thing that made it even harder, 577 00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:36,200 you know, whenever they pick a jury, you know, there's 12 members of a jury, but they always, 578 00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:42,080 at the very beginning, have two alternates in case something happens with one or two 579 00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:43,080 of the jury members. 580 00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:47,040 There's a couple other people that have heard all the evidence and so forth that can then, 581 00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:52,120 you know, they're there for the entire trial and all deliberations, but unless you lose 582 00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:57,560 a juror to, they don't actually participate in deliberations and voting. 583 00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:03,040 Well, in our case, two jury members had been dismissed. 584 00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:10,640 Really for misconduct, maybe reported by jury number eight, I don't know. 585 00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:15,320 So I have a little bit of sarcasm that I can't get out of, but seriously, no hard feelings 586 00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:19,240 against jury number eight, but I actually tried reaching out to her to let her know 587 00:47:19,240 --> 00:47:21,600 I'd written a book, but no response there. 588 00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:24,440 You know, can't blame her. 589 00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:30,160 But I honestly do not try to, I don't try to paint her or anybody as a villain in the 590 00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:34,080 book and was really worried that it would come across that way. 591 00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:37,960 And I've had a lot of people say, no, it absolutely doesn't come across that way because that 592 00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:38,960 wasn't my purpose. 593 00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:47,680 But you know, you just realize that, yeah, that, oh, yeah. 594 00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:49,680 So I kind of got lost by train thoughts. 595 00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:57,200 So if there had been another alternate still available, I probably could have seen myself 596 00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:04,080 recusing myself saying, you know what, I don't feel like I can, that I had all the information 597 00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,920 needed to make a fair decision and I could have stepped out and an alternate would have 598 00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:08,920 stepped in. 599 00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:09,920 I didn't have that option. 600 00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:12,040 The alternates had already been used up. 601 00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:16,400 Now I could have still done it, but that would have resulted in a hung jury. 602 00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:18,240 And you know, I didn't want that on my shoulders. 603 00:48:18,240 --> 00:48:23,360 Well, obviously I had a mis-trial on my shoulders instead. 604 00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:32,400 But again, I circle back to, you know, given, and the thing that, you know, given only what 605 00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:38,040 was presented in the trial, second degree murder was appropriate. 606 00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:44,880 But then I was left really scratching my head when a mis-trial is found. 607 00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:50,600 And you know, like I said, when we very first started voting, it was nine that were voting 608 00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:52,760 for guilty on first degree. 609 00:48:52,760 --> 00:49:00,160 And I had no doubt in my mind that if the exact same testimony and evidence were repeated 610 00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:05,000 a second time, that there was a high probability that she could walk away with first degree 611 00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:06,000 murder. 612 00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:10,680 And so that's why, you know, of course, the defense attorney and the defendant had no 613 00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:20,280 idea about what went on in the deliberation room and how poorly her case looked from 614 00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:23,800 a juror's perspective. 615 00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,960 And I just, I was like, what in the world is happening? 616 00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:28,680 You know, so. 617 00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:37,560 But bizarre, but I'll say on the outside looking in, obviously it's super personal to you. 618 00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:42,520 Outside looking in, if you're a kind of a law and order or just a courtroom type of person, 619 00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,560 I imagine your book is incredible reading. 620 00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:46,560 Yeah. 621 00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:54,360 But you know, I've done a couple of fun podcasts that are kind of their, you know, focus on 622 00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:58,760 like criminal justice and the justice system and that kind of thing where like one of them 623 00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:07,400 that I did more recently, I'll do a name plug for it's Jen and Justice. 624 00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:12,000 They I think are at the same space to air next week sometime. 625 00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,040 But the host is an attorney, a defense attorney. 626 00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:21,440 And so she does have a very good working knowledge of the legal system and how jury 627 00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:22,840 trials work and stuff. 628 00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:28,200 And so she was a real fun one to talk to. 629 00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,960 And it was real, I'd reached out to her asking, you know, when that episode was gonna air 630 00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:34,120 and she'd let me know. 631 00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:39,120 Well, and I don't, I say next week, I don't know when this episode's gonna air. 632 00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:42,480 That one was going to air around July 4th. 633 00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:51,480 And she said, she said, but my interview with you really helped me tweak my boardire process 634 00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:55,640 for jury selection with my last case. 635 00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:58,760 And I, you know, and I don't remember exactly what I said. 636 00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:04,800 I said, oh, did it, did it go somewhere along the lines of, you know, are you, are you somebody 637 00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:10,440 that, you know, can make a decision based on cherry picked information that's been delivered 638 00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:19,040 in a manipulative way and also viewed as ignorant where lots of conversations will happen around 639 00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,680 you and you're not allowed to ask questions. 640 00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:23,200 I said, was it a long interview? 641 00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:28,360 She'll actually said as close as I could get. 642 00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:31,400 But so yeah, I've had some fun. 643 00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:41,200 And I actually had one, she was a law professor that has had her students read my book, you 644 00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:44,520 know, is kind of the perspective from a juror. 645 00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:50,480 And then I had a court reporter reach out to me. 646 00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:54,160 She actually, you know, had emailed me and then asked if we could talk on the phone. 647 00:51:54,160 --> 00:52:00,560 I called her and so if you read the book, you know, again, I don't try to villainize anybody, 648 00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:05,120 but I do put court transcripts in there that just speak for themselves. 649 00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:12,160 So the second judge that stepped in when the original judge recused, she was a bit of a 650 00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:13,960 peach, you know. 651 00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:18,560 And you know, I'd asked her, I said, have you ever had to do court reporting for a judge 652 00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:19,560 like that? 653 00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:21,000 She's like, oh, yeah, absolutely. 654 00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:25,800 Like where you want to crawl under a table and just that the arrogance. 655 00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:29,280 Yeah, because it was, it was pretty bad. 656 00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:34,840 I was like, how do you sit there and just like repeat what they say like all day long? 657 00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:39,400 But anyway, so that's a whole lot about that. 658 00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:44,880 But what I did want to just kind of plug in there, you know, like, like you said, my story 659 00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:48,960 is absolutely kind of unique and in a unicorn. 660 00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:55,320 I mean, no, I have not run into anybody else that has been through that exact situation. 661 00:52:55,320 --> 00:53:00,800 But like I said, I interweave stories with my kids in there and I have a fairly large 662 00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:07,200 circle of foster and adoptive moms who understand that kind of parenting trauma kids and the 663 00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:09,320 hard within that. 664 00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:16,080 But the thing throughout the book is really just learning to rise no matter what life throws 665 00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:23,560 at you because regardless of what your story is, you're going to have, if you've lived long 666 00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:30,800 enough, you have walked through some absolutely devastating things, whether it's the breakup 667 00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:37,160 of a marriage or a health crisis or having a business you put your heart and soul into 668 00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:44,440 you fall apart or a prodigal child or, you know, I mean, so we all walked through just 669 00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:46,200 absolutely horrendous things. 670 00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:52,880 And I I've been so encouraged by the people who have reached out to me that have said, 671 00:53:52,880 --> 00:54:00,160 you know what, reading your basically your diary every day of getting back up out of 672 00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:02,160 bed and putting one foot in the other. 673 00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:09,200 And then even further than that, being feeling safe to say, you know, God, I've got some 674 00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:10,200 questions right now. 675 00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:14,000 I've got some questions and I'm kind of I'm kind of mad. 676 00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:17,800 I like, no, I'm a lot mad. 677 00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:23,520 I've been safe to say that but then at the end of the day to say, you know what, even 678 00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:33,040 if you know that that's what really true faith looks like is even if this all falls apart, 679 00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:36,240 I still trust you. 680 00:54:36,240 --> 00:54:40,560 And you know, so I think that that's kind of really a big part of my story is, you know, 681 00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:49,080 what does what does real genuine faith look like? 682 00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:51,320 And it's it's not, I mean, yeah, we always want to believe and hope for the best, but 683 00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:54,400 the reality is that is the best doesn't always happen. 684 00:54:54,400 --> 00:55:02,920 And, you know, sometimes the miracle is just keeping your your faith in the even if. 685 00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:04,920 Yeah. 686 00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:07,280 No, I think that's great. 687 00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:11,720 And certainly sounds like even though most people listen to this and in fact, probably 688 00:55:11,720 --> 00:55:14,600 none listen to this, we'll have your exact experience. 689 00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:21,960 Like you said, we all face something and being able to continue on and to have that faith, 690 00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:26,240 despite hard circumstances is something that we could all learn and grow from. 691 00:55:26,240 --> 00:55:27,240 Absolutely. 692 00:55:27,240 --> 00:55:33,240 I'm imagining people listening to this are going to want to buy your book and staying 693 00:55:33,240 --> 00:55:34,480 and contact with you. 694 00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:39,640 Where can they find your book at and stay in contact with you after the show? 695 00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:40,640 Sure. 696 00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:42,640 Well, it's it's out there on Amazon. 697 00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:49,520 I've got, you know, the paperback and hardback and then, of course, the e version, the Kindle 698 00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:57,000 and then I also went out on a limb and did a audio version as well for those of you know, 699 00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:01,640 I think a lot of podcast listeners are probably audio people. 700 00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:08,720 Full disclosure though, I self narrate it and I am by no means a professional voiceover 701 00:56:08,720 --> 00:56:11,080 person and it was a huge learning curve. 702 00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:14,640 You know, I'm sitting here looking at you with your headphones on my I've got those 703 00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:20,400 in a box like for when podcast members, hosts want that to be used. 704 00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:25,120 But I mean, I can never get the crazy things to actually recognize the right inputs and 705 00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:30,960 outputs and anyway, so huge learning curve to try to record the audio book and get it 706 00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:36,480 to ACX or Audible standards to upload. 707 00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:37,720 But it is out there. 708 00:56:37,720 --> 00:56:44,280 It was just important for me to record it in my voice since it's my story. 709 00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:45,280 So it's there. 710 00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:47,760 I don't necessarily have a website. 711 00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:48,760 I'm on Facebook. 712 00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:53,920 I'm not hard to find if you search Katrina Robertson and maybe even narrow it down to 713 00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:55,480 Arkansas, you'll find me. 714 00:56:55,480 --> 00:57:03,840 I've actually been starting to be asked about speaking engagement. 715 00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:09,560 So I'm thinking about possibly exploring that and if that's the case, I'll eventually 716 00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:16,040 put up a website and that kind of thing, but just kind of seeing where it all takes me. 717 00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:19,760 But Amazon juror number 11 is the name of the book. 718 00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:27,040 The subtitle is a memoir of the broken justice system and rising from the trials of life. 719 00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:30,040 So you'll find it out there. 720 00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:34,600 And then Facebook Katrina Robertson, you'll find me. 721 00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:35,600 Okay. 722 00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:36,600 All right. 723 00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:41,400 Well, I'll definitely include that the Amazon link down and the show notes down below. 724 00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:46,640 So definitely give that a look and yeah, I'll include Facebook on there too if you want 725 00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:52,120 to stay in contact with her, but Katrina fascinating story and thank you so much for sharing with 726 00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:53,120 us today. 727 00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:54,120 Yeah. 728 00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:55,120 Well, thanks for having me here. 729 00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:56,120 I've enjoyed it. 730 00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:57,120 Absolutely. 731 00:57:57,120 --> 00:57:58,120 All right. 732 00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:17,280 So that's my lesson and we'll catch you on the next episode.