Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Faithfully Engaged.
Today we have a really neat guest on. Her name is Kim, so let me shoot it to Kim and just Kim,
go ahead and introduce yourself to the audience and tell us a little bit about you.
Sure, Johnny, thanks for having me. I'm so excited looking forward to this. I love your show.
Everyone should have it on the top of their broadcast list and listen to it every week.
So I'm Kim Sorrell. I was an entrepreneur, had businesses my whole life, but I have kind of
shifted in what I do. I'm an author. I have a couple of books out and I'm a speaker. I have a
podcast of my own, celebrity interview podcast, and I have a TV show, a weekly, one hour TV show,
Heart and Soul is the name of that. And I just really love people and I love meeting new people
and I love love, I guess, and I love Jesus. So there we go. I love it. So let me start. I actually,
you know, sometimes I'll kind of break the wall here a little bit and tell the audience,
like, these things aren't recorded live. They're done in advance. And earlier this morning, I
actually had, sorry, Kim, I'll be a little biased towards this guest that I had on because this
guest was my mom. So she has kind of my favorite guest, reward, I guess. But she is an author as
well. And she was kind of talking about her book process and everything. So since that's kind of
fresh on my mind, I'm kind of curious about your journey of being an author. Is that something
you've always wanted to do? Was it just, did it just fall into your lap? Like kind of just tell
the audience how you became an author? Well, I've always enjoyed writing, but never dreamed of writing
a book. But then I kind of just stumbled into it. I was diagnosed with breast cancer. And when I was,
my first place I went was a bookstore. And everything seemed to be medical, completely
medical or very depressing. And I wanted to know what it felt like, you know, did I have choices to
make? What was it going to be like? And so I started writing, really kind of as a way to update family
and friends as well and go into the doctor tomorrow kind of thing. But before I knew it,
5,000 people were reading the emails I was sending. And it was just what I was going through and what
was going through my mind. And I continued to write for a little over a year, because
other things happened in that year. Four months after I was diagnosed, my husband was diagnosed
with pancreatic cancer and passed away six weeks after that. So I was writing during that whole
period. And then I had people tell me it should be a book, you know, and I'm like, yeah, right,
whatever. But then I had somebody who I really respect tell me that it should be a book. And so
that is my first book, Cry Until You Left. It's called because I believe that's what you have to
do. You've got to cry and grieve. And but you have to give yourself permission to laugh again.
And so that was my first book. My second book was much more intentional. But it's a journey that I
took that I would have taken, whether it became a book or not, it was a journey I needed to take
for myself. And it did become a book and it's a bestseller. And so that's been a fun ride.
Yeah, yeah, no, that's, it's always interesting to me here in people's stories, whether it's about
being an author or just anything of how they get there. And kind of just going into your faith,
you have cancer diagnosis, then my husband gets it dies quickly.
I just would imagine your faith was tested in many ways there. So kind of kind of talk with
us a little bit about how your faith specifically in this situation, but really your life in general,
how your faith impacted you through these hard times.
Well, it's very interesting. My husband was the greatest guy. We had a great marriage and planned
on being that couple, then our nineties sitting on rockers sipping lemonade on the front porch,
you know, you kind of think that, you know, what your future is going to hold, we've just become
empty nesters. We were looking forward to that. I'm not sure why, because we love our kids, but,
and I don't even know what empty nesters do, but whatever it is, we were excited to be doing it.
And so life, we were in a good place. I was 47 years old and thought I knew what my life was
going to look like. And my husband was that guy who'd get up at five o'clock every morning and be
on his face before God. He chased God. He just always wanted more and read his Bible, did a
devotional every day, and just this true blue incredible guy. And so one thing that happened
is right after I was diagnosed before anything with my husband, people would say to me, well,
why you? And my response was, well, why not me? You know, I don't think God is up in heaven saying,
you stole that pack of gum when you were in seventh grade. So I'm going to smite you with
cancer when you're 47 years old. You know, I don't think it happens like that. You know, I think
it can happen to anybody at any time. And yeah, absolutely, it can test your faith, or it can
strengthen your faith. I think you get to decide. And for me, it made my faith stronger. I didn't
know that it could be stronger, but I think it always can be. And so I had to lean on God, you
know, what else, what else is there in a moment like that? You can't just rely on the doctors.
You know, there's a lot more that goes on besides the physical when you're faced with the diagnosis.
And the spiritual is a big part of it. So letting God be God and be there and love you through it
is an important thing to do.
That's that's a really good way to put that because, yeah, we like to play in things out.
I'll count it sometimes. Sometimes my wife listens to the show, sometimes she doesn't. So
when I rail on her a little bit, she may or may not hear it. Just don't go behind my back and
tell her when I do those things. But she's a big, she's a big planer. She likes things to be very
sectioned out. We're going to do this on this day, where she has, she buys Christmas presents for
the kids and like, March or something like that's just the way that our brain works. And
when you hear a story like that, that really puts that in perspective, not that we can't plan or
anything. But our plans aren't always the ones that end up happening. And that's hard. That's
hard to deal with. But I love how you put that, that we can use that and then say, oh, whoa,
it was me, why me, all that, or we can put our faith in God. And that is, that's very inspiring
to hear that you, you were able to, to be tested, but be strengthened through that time. So
walk us through kind of while you're writing the book and when you're just dealing with this
grieving process, how did you get to that point where you were able to laugh and enjoy life again?
Well, you know, it's really tough. I think for most things in life, you can find somebody who's
been through the same thing. But I have yet to meet anybody who had cancer and then four months
later, their husband is diagnosed. And my poor husband, he started having stomach issues shortly
after I was diagnosed and went to the doctor and he said, I'll take some role aids, you know, it's
because you're nervous about your wife, you know, whatever. And went back two months later,
take some role aids, went back to a gastro specialist. And unfortunately, I was having
a complete hysterectomy because of the kind of breast cancer I had, I was having that done the
next day and a colonoscopy. So for anyone who's had a colonoscopy, you know, that you don't leave
your home the day before, because you have to be close to your bathroom. And so I couldn't go with
them to his doctor's appointment. And I'm the mouth. And he's just this nice guy. And if they
say this is what it is, he's like, Oh, okay, instead of saying, wait a minute, run a test,
you know, do something. And so he came home from there. And, and the gastro specialist said the
same thing, take some role aids. And so then I had surgery the next day. So I couldn't do anything
about it. But I woke up a week later, exactly a week later. And I'm still in bed at that point in
time recovering and wearing pants with elastic and watching Grey's Anatomy reruns or, you know,
whatever. And my husband was in bed, which he never is because he's gone by then. And he just
was so uncomfortable. And I said, Well, that's it, you're going to the ER, you know, the you
they'll run the test, they'll do something, they're not going to just send you away. And so he did,
he went to the ER. But he was this rule follower kind of a guy. So when it said no cell phones,
he took that seriously. So I waited and waited for a phone call. And he finally called. And he said,
Well, I guess they're going to keep me overnight. And I'm like, keep you overnight, they don't keep
anybody overnight. So I jumped into clothes, you know, the normal people wear and I hopped into my
car and into my Vicodin induced state drove like a mad woman to the hospital. And I was almost there
when the phone rang again. And he said, I guess there's a spot on my liver. I'm like spot on your
liver. I just started weeping. I just started bawling. And I don't really even remember parking
at the hospital. I remember running in, holding all parts of my body because everything was sore.
And because I'd also get a complete mastectomy. And just everything was sore. And I ran in and
they told me where he was. And he was behind a curtain. And I ran up to it and I weeping,
whip back the curtain. And he's just sitting on the edge of the bed like nothing is going on.
And he looks at me and he said, Hey, I am not going to invite you out anymore if this is the way
you're going to behave. And I said, Listen, buddy, you are not allowed to be funny right now. And
with any sort of a diagnosis, it doesn't happen in moments that happens in days. And so over the
next few days, tests were run and things were done. And then we got the diagnosis of pancreatic
cancer. And when we did, we know what kind of a diagnosis it was. And by the time it was found in
my husband, it was well advanced. And so there wasn't really anything they could do. And there's
still not a cure for pancreatic cancer. And so it's a tough one. You know, it's not a diagnosis
you ever want to hear. But we prayed immediately that Lord either heal him, like you did the
lame, the sick, the blind, or the greatest healing that I think sometimes we forget. And that's heaven,
going to heaven. And, but please, please don't let him suffer. So that was our prayer the whole
time. They thought he'd live for maybe a year. And six months in, we had a great six weeks. And
six months, I say six weeks, we had a great six weeks watching cash cab and whatever we did,
played some gin rummy and, you know, we just hung out for six weeks. And it wasn't until the last
day he woke up on a Sunday morning, and he was in pain. And I called the hospice nurse and she
came over right away and she gave him some more morphine. And up until then, he wasn't experiencing
pain. It was totally under control. And it's a painful cancer. But our hospice did such a great
job. But so she came over and I was sitting on, he was sitting on the edge of the bed, and I didn't
want him to fall off the bed. So I'm behind him holding on to him. And as he is just kind of
rocking back and forth because he's in so much pain. And she's in our bedroom on the phone,
calling for a hospital bed and whatever equipment she thought that we were going to need. And I
could just feel his pain and feel his agony. And I just, I said to the hospice nurse,
do I call my family? Do I call my kids? I've got five kids. So I call them. What do I do?
No, no, no, you've got time. You've got time. I asked her that a couple of times because he was
so miserable. And so I just whispered in his ear. And I said, baby, just go. And he took his last
breath. That was it. And so the six weeks, it was hard, hard for me, wonderful for him.
God's mercy and grace all over the place. Our prayer was definitely answered. He did not suffer.
We had this great six weeks together. And, you know, I've never been able to be angry about it
because he was such a great guy. And at 51 years old to go to heaven and not pay another bill
and never be sick again. That's not so bad. You know, that's not so horrible. So it's like,
it's sad for me, but happy for him. And so the, so in the grieving process, I had this mix of
emotions because I, it's the loss of a dream. It's the loss of my best friend. It's the loss, the
distance between us, the time, the whatever is going to happen in life and reinvent reinventing
a whole new life. We were a couple. We were a couple. We were married for almost 30 years.
And then now I was a single. I didn't plan on ever being a single, you know, it's not something
you plan. And so it was definitely a process to, to deal with all of it mentally. And I still was
dealing with my cancer crap. So I still had to go through my stuff. And so it was a, it was an
interesting time of life, but I can tell you that the prayers of my friends, the prayers of my family
lifted me up and held me together. And the grace of God just wrapped around me,
made it so that I survived. I survived it and learned how to thrive because of it.
Just, just a really incredible story. One that, you know, is certainly filled with, with sadness,
with grief, all of that. And at no point, whether, whether you're in your 40s or in your 90s, when,
when you lose a spouse, especially, or someone close to you, it hurts. But what I really liked
about that is, is for one, you leaned on other people, which is a key tenet to any type of grieving,
yet to not do it completely on your own. And two, you both structured your life in a way
to be God honoring, God fearing. So when tragedy strikes, when bad things happen,
you just act, you pray, you know that death is going to happen to all of us. So I recently had
another guest on recently that was talking about dealing with a kind of tragedy and, and, and
heart things in life. And he likened it to, to a football game where if somebody's running down
the field and they see somebody coming at them and they can brace for the hit, it doesn't hurt as
bad. Like, yeah, it hurts. But it's not like when somebody comes out of nowhere and just
socks you down really, really hard. And in a sense, that's what happened to you. You weren't
prepared for any of that. But not really. Like, even though you weren't prepared for that one
individual situation, you and your husband had faith in God and had faith that he was going to
provide even in this incredibly hard situation. So yeah, it hurt. But not to the degree of somebody
that I think is unbelieving or a spouse that's unbelieving, that's a different level of grief.
So what a great story there for the listeners of not saying that you're going to face what chemists
faced, but you're going to face something. So, so don't wait for the bad thing to happen
to then deal with it. Like, get your life in order now. And that's going to help soften
that blow when something does happen. I love the football analogy. I think that's that is so true.
And, and, and we did have time, you know, there are accidents they have. And there are things that
happen that just out of the blue, you lose somebody. And that is such a sucker punch. And
my husband and I talked about that a little bit, what's an easier way to go, you know,
if you're going to go personally, you know, Lord Jesus, if I could just go in my sleeve,
I'd be the happiest, you know, that would be the best way. But to know that you're going to go
and for your family to know so you can kind of say goodbye, you know, say anything you feel like
you need to say, I guess, of whatever it is, or, or the accident, you know, the right now you're
gone. And I think for the person, the right now you're gone is probably the best way. But to be
able to spend that time with my husband was a gift. That was just such a gift from God.
Yeah. And I love the fact that you're able to see things like that. So often we look at death.
And I think some of it is just our own lack of understanding of love, which is going to get
into kind of our next conversation there of what love really is love from God, love to our spouses,
to our kids, that we only see it in the temporal right here and now. And if they die, then that
love is gone. And it's just the end of the world. And that's very short sided that you're not getting
the whole picture yet hurts. I will never tell anybody otherwise that it shouldn't hurt to lose
somebody, but we need that full context. So with that in mind, you loved your husband to death,
you love God. But in general, just taking it broad, what does that word even mean? What does it mean
to love somebody? Such a great question. And one that I wanted to know the answer to,
because I wanted to honor my husband, you know, you see sometimes people getting stuck in grief.
And I didn't want to get stuck in it. I, you know, there are times that I still cry, you know, and
that's okay. You can if you need to cry, you should cry. We're pretty good as a group of people,
I think, especially as Christians, we can be pretty good at judging people's grief and deciding for
them when they should be out from under the depths of it. And everybody grieves differently. And
somebody wrote a book years ago on this on the steps of grief, and people feel guilty if they
don't go through them. And people are upset if somebody isn't happy right away, you know, I mean,
there, there are so many things, but I encourage you don't judge people's grief. Let people grieve
the way they grieve. And however that is for them, it is for them. And the best thing you can do is
just be around them, help them through it. And without any judgment. But yeah, so you do have
to figure out a way to get out of it, you know, you've got to come out from under it at some point.
And so I wanted to really honor my husband with my life, because he honored me when he was here.
And I loved him dearly. And so I just thought, well, gosh, going forward, how do I know that I'm
doing everything I can to do it right? And I just thought, well, you know, God is love. So if God
is love, like John says, God is love, if God is love, and we're created in this image, then it
would mean that we're love, that we are love. It doesn't say God loves, it says God is love. So love
is something that you are, that would mean. But what is it really? You know, I think you put five
people in a room, you might get five different answers to that question, or people really
Christianize it or Bibleize it and say, well, there's this kind of love, that kind of love, that
kind of love, that kind of love, well, you know, for the average human being like me, you know,
love is love is love, like, what does it mean? And so I decided that I was going to go on a year-long
quest and search of the true meaning of love. And I'll tell you, I have a hard time committing
to an entree when I go out for dinner. So to commit a year to something was a stretch for me.
But I decided I was going to do it. And most of the time I did it, I was in Haiti. And I'll
tell you the things that I learned about love are different than I've ever been taught, things I've
never heard before, things that are life changing and world changing. And so now I'm so excited
about what I know and what I can share with other people, because now I see other lives changing
as well. I want to get more into love itself. And I know I mentioned to this to you,
real briefly, just when we first were talking to each other, that I went to Haiti myself in 2010.
I don't remember exactly how long the timeline after the earthquake it was, but pretty soon after.
And certainly saw a lot of impact that definitely some memories and things like that,
that kind of shaped my worldview. So I'm just curious a little bit more on specifically that
trip to Haiti of first off, what was that like for you? And how does that still impact a need today?
Yeah, well, I run a nonprofit organization. And I did before I was diagnosed and stepped down from
that position because it'd be too, I couldn't have done what needed to be done for the organization.
I can go through the things I was going through. And so when I was able to go back to work,
I wasn't sure if I was going to go back into my businesses, but I had people running them.
I really didn't have to. I didn't know what this life was going to look like. And so I kind of
wanted to take things slow. And I happened to run into a man who was running an organization.
My father and I had started 10 years before. And I said, Hey, do you need any help? You know,
what about bookkeeping? And he's like, Oh, yeah, gosh, yeah, we could use bookkeeping. And so I
started on January 1 of that year as part time bookkeeper. And 12 days later, there was an earthquake
in Haiti that killed 200,000 people. And I went from part time bookkeeper to 24 seven. And within
a couple of weeks, I was in Haiti. And then for the next several years, I spent at least part of
every month in Haiti. And I'll tell you one thing about going back to grieving for a second is,
I've never been told this or read this, but man, service is the greatest healer of grief. It is
the greatest healer of grief to get out of yourself and out of your head and serve other people. Oh,
my word, there's so much healing in that you can't outlive God, you can't. It's impossible. You know,
I'm curious, Jenny, if you feel the same way, but like, when I've gone, when I go, when I work and I
serve and whatever, you can think, Oh my gosh, well, I'm serving, I'm helping, I'm giving. But
what you get in return is so much greater than what you can possibly give. It's like, you just
cannot give God. And so there's such healing in that. Did you experience that as well? No, absolutely.
Both from my trip there in Haiti, and I've been on some other mission trips as well. And honestly,
even taking it outside of Haiti, just in general, and even financial giving, we've been talking about
this in church quite a bit, that we don't give money or go to a trip or whatever solely to get
what we want out of it or whatever, like we don't want that means. But boy, is it a wonderful
kind of side effect from that. And I see that in my own personal life of just that gratitude
and just impact of, yeah, serving really does. It does make me feel better. And it's great to see
what God is doing in all these ways that are way above my comprehension. And I loved what you were
saying about grief. And we can see this, and I see this with some of my clients, not just with grief,
but also with depression and just kind of mental distress in general, that I try to be careful with
my words here, because I don't mean it in a derogatory way. But depression, grief, things like
that, they are self focused in nature. And I don't mean that of somebody just, oh, they are asking
depression on themselves, or they are asking for grief, they're just feeling sorry for themselves.
I'm not trying to say that. It's just, it keeps you trapped in your head. And that's where that's
the anguish of grief and depression is worth it. We feel like a prisoner up in our head. And that
we don't want that. Serving like you're saying being involved in other people's lives. What a
wonderful healer to be able to get me out of my head and realize there are other problems out there.
And it's not just me that's going through a hard time. And I can impact other people. So yes, I
answered your question. I absolutely saw that in my trip to Haiti, but also in other aspects of my
life as well. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, so that's why Haiti, I mean, that's, I happen to be working in
Haiti. That's where I was when I decided to do this, this year of living love, figuring out love.
And I took 1 Corinthians 13, love is patient, love is kind, does not envy, does not boast.
And I decided I would take one word a month and figure out, well, what is love that is patient?
What is love that is kind? And the first thing I figured out is there are 14 izzes and izzents
of love in that chapter. And so it took me a little longer than a year. But, but I did it.
And I also figured out that every single one of those words, when you put love izz or love is not
in front of it, it totally changes the meaning of the word. And so every month I was blown away.
And so I wrote, and I would write at the beginning of the month, what I thought it was going to be,
you know, we know what patience izz, we know what kind izz, you know, whatever,
what I thought it was going to be, what I thought it was going to look like. And then I write the
story of what brings me to the conclusion of what that love really is. And it's like, God,
he had to hit me over the head at the end of the month. I'd be looking for it all month and looking
and looking. And I'm sure it was right in front of me, but something big would happen. I was chased
by a motorcycle gang. I slept outside with tarantulas and snakes. I mean, something big
wouldn't happen. And I'd go, oh, okay, now I get it. Now I get it. It was crazy, crazy time.
Yeah. Yeah. I think that kind of a principle from that is, yeah, don't tell God that he can
or can't do something or that kind of the big one is don't pray for patience unless you
you really want to experience that and he will show it to you. Right. Yeah. And yeah, you hear
that a lot, but, but patience and love that are as patient are so different from each other. You
know, patients, you're not mad because your five year old can't find their shoes and trying to get
out the door for church on Sunday morning, you know, or you're not stomping your foot because
you're ready to go and your wife still put her makeup on or, you know, whatever that's showing
patient, but love that is patient is different than that. And we're supposed to love everybody,
right? I mean, in Leviticus, it says it. It's not just something Jesus said, but that was his big
message was love and peace. And we're supposed to love each other. And so love that is patient
would say that when you love somebody with love that is patient, you recognize that this is the
most important moment of your life. What's in the past is in the past. And what's in the future is
yet to come. This is the most important moment. And so when you love with love that is patient,
you are fully there. You're fully engaged. You are actually listening. And I'll tell you, I stunk
at this. I was horrible at it. I thought it was this great multitasker. I could be fully engaged
in a conversation and thinking about a meeting I had later and who needed to go to soccer practice
and what I was going to make for dinner and be fully engaged at the same time. And I am not that
superwoman. I don't have that superpower. And I don't know that anybody does. But when I trained
myself because man, this took a lot of practice, this took me a lot of practice. But as I practiced
it and got better at it and learned how to be fully present and fully engaged and block everything
else out, I learned things. Like my ears opened up. I heard things I never would have heard.
Instead of making assumptions about what somebody was going to say based on some label you put on
them or what you think they're going to talk about, whatever it is, because love has no labels, by the
way. But I was actually hearing what they were actually saying and not making assumptions.
And it changes everything when you really listen. And if you think about it, it changes everything
when you really listen to. Because you know if someone's distracted when you're talking to them
or if they're really there for you. And love is there when you're truly there for them and they're
really there for you. No, that is a very important piece there and love and all types of relationships
whether spouse or kids or friends, whoever. Yeah, you can tell that difference. I see that in my
work all the time being a counselor that oftentimes all that that client really needs in that time
is just to be heard. I may not give a lick of advice or we may not fix anything, but they feel
heard. And that is really what spurs on that change. And it's convicting to me sometimes knowing
that. And I'll be honest here, knowing that experiencing that in my job. But I have to look
at myself. Did I was I on my phone when I said I was going to read to my kid? Was I was I really
listening to what my wife said? Was I just kind of blocking her out? That's convicted to me as a
counselor to that that I'm not perfect at that. And that's I think that's what's great about going to
the scriptures like that is that's a constant wake up call that we're not perfect. But but God is
and that's where we need to glean that love from. Right, right. Like if this is a concept that had I
stopped at the first month, it would have changed my life. Because this alone changed my life. But
there were 13 more to do. And so but I think about if I would have known this, when I had little
ones running around, and you're at the stove, and you're stirring whatever it is you're making for
dinner, or you're on the phone, and your little one is trying to get your attention, and you're
just kind of just a minute, just a minute, just a minute, right? And I my son Luke, I've got five
kids, but my son Luke, in particular, he would just stand there and poke my arm and poke my arm and
say mom, mom, mom, mom, mom, and I'd be like, Luke, I'm making dinner, Luke, I'm on the phone,
you know, whatever it is. But looking back, I really believe that if I would have just stopped
for a minute, and looked my son in the eye, and said, Luke, what is it that you need? He probably
would have said, this truck is red and ran away, you know, it probably would have taken no time at
all, just to let him be heard, because he had something to say. And so I wish that I would have
acted like that as a mom, I wish that was something that I did, and I didn't. So
I encourage other moms to do it, just just listen to your kids. Yeah. Now, kind of on that practical
side of things, I know, goodness, we've already gleaned so much in a very short amount of time,
about one of those. What would you recommend to a mom, to a dad, whoever that wants to learn more
about love? What would you recommend to them? Should they just go do the same thing you did,
going through Corinthians right there? Or is there something else that they could do instead?
But what would you say to them? Well, I would say, you don't have to go to Haiti for a year.
I wrote a book and everything's in the book, all the revelations that God gave me,
and all the stories of the things that happened. And I think that there's other ways to figure out
the true meaning of love. But I think it starts with maybe recognizing that you might not know
the true meaning of love. You know, think about where we taught love, we taught our parents,
our grandparents, you know, whoever who are taught by their parents, their grandparents,
and not everything done in the name of love or is called love, really is love. And it's certainly
not the kind of love that God is and that we should be to others. And so figuring out even just
what love really is, like we like to think of it sometimes as an emotion, a feeling, right?
But you watch a scary movie. That night you go to bed, you hear every creak, every bump,
everything, and you're scared, right? It's dark and you're scared because of fear,
because of the movie. But you don't live in that. You don't live in fear. But you'll live in love.
Love is who you are. It's who God is and it's who you are. And so it's all encompassing.
It's not a feeling, you know, or we talk about falling in love, right? Oh my gosh, you meet
the person of your dreams and you just can't wait to marry them. You can't wait to walk down that
island, say, I do. And it's, you're so in love. And then you go on this great honeymoon and
everything is wonderful and you get home and, and then he leaves this dirty underwear on the
bedroom floor and you're thinking, why did I marry this barbarian? Like, what was I thinking?
Do I really love him? You know, what is that? Well, because we associate sometimes love with,
with what we get out of it, what people, other people's actions. Well, he's still the guy
that you love. He's still the guy that you said I do to. That's who he is. He's not throw my dirty
underwear on the floor guy. He's Tom or whoever he is. That's who he is, the man that you know.
And so you got to separate that, understand what love really is and, and don't withdraw
what you think is love because of what somebody does because your kid makes you mad or your spouse
makes you angry or, you know, whatever it happens to be, you, the love shouldn't leave. The love
shouldn't be affected. You know, you might not like what somebody does and you might not like
somebody, but loving them is, is different than that.
Yeah, that really takes it into a more deep level to this more in depth to look at it that way
instead of the individual actions. You know, your dirty underwear story kind of hits home a little
bit with my wife and I earlier on. It was socks, but I had lived either alone or with some bachelor
friends for several years. And of course, you know, like when I had dirty socks, they, if they made
it in the dirty clothes, hamper great. If they were close, that's fine. You know, that's just
the way I kind of, I was kind of used to living and I've shared this story several times, but
my, my wife, that was annoying her and I had no idea that it was annoying her. I just, I wasn't
thinking about it. I'm not giving myself an excuse. It just legitimately didn't cross my mind. And
instead of what you're saying there of, man, Johnny's just a big slob. How can he be this way? All that.
I give her a lot of credit that she looked at that as a behavior that she didn't like and said,
Johnny, can you make sure to not ball up the socks and just put them in the dirty laundry?
I'm not going to say I've been perfect at that since then, but a whole lot better than I was.
But that took her understanding of this is an action I dislike and I'm going to tell them about
it. And lookie there, it's not that big of a problem. But as long as that was a bit of my
character and who I am, I'm just this dirty slob. Yeah, that would have impacted our marriage.
And, and how sad would that be about something so minor to have such a big rift, but that absolutely
could have happened. Yeah. And it's easy when you're first married, when you're, you know,
you're newly into it. It's so easy to get annoyed over things. You know, we all go into
relationships with habits and, and the way we do things and the way we want the,
the glasses and the cupboard and the way we want the dishwasher loaded or the toothpaste,
tube squeezed or, you know, whatever it is, and you learn to work with each other. And
it's, it's, there's a learning curve there, you know, it takes a minute to get used to each other,
get used to living together and being together all the time. And so, you know, showing each other
the kind of grace that you want to be shown is a good idea. Absolutely. And again, just another
personal example that we're feeling that more so not as much in the marriage, but as with kids,
as you well know, kind of the example you said with your son, I kind of half hazardly and,
and I came back and corrected this. My daughter was kind of having a, just a fit. She's three,
if you haven't had a three year old, they have fits. That's just part of what they do sometimes.
And I kind of half hazardly said this joke just to my wife of saying, if only we could take that,
I forgot exactly how I phrased it, but that iron will that she has, that strong spirit away, if
all that we could do that, then we'd be fine. And I quickly corrected that because one, that was kind
of a bad joke to say, just kind of not, not good taste, even with her out of the room. But it's
not true. Like the problem is the fit that we're having, the fit that was, I don't even remember
what it was. It was something really silly. But look at that. God, God gave her that strong will.
And I think God is going to use that strong will and a lot of great ways. The problem wasn't her
strong will. It was how she was using that strong will. And it's our job as parents to be able to
shape that strong will and to something that will be productive down the line. But if I have that
narrow focus of love, that narrow focus of what my role of a dad is, is just to yell at her and
why are you beating the door or whatever she was doing. And then that call that good. We're not
getting at the heart of it. And that's what I love about what you're looking at there with love,
is don't take the cheap, easy Hollywood route that they kissed each other at the end and
yay, everyone's happy. No, love is so much more than that.
It is, it is, you know, and, you know, going back to the things we're taught about love,
one of the things that you hear is that loves a two way street, right? You hear that. And,
and it's not true. It's absolutely not true. Love is on you period. It is on you period.
You know, when you bring that baby home from the hospital, you remember the days, right? You
bring the baby home, you have 100% control. You decide when the baby comes in. You decide
when the baby eats, when the baby takes a nap, when the baby has a bath, you know, you have 100%
control. But six, seven, eight months later, all of your Tupperware is all over the kitchen floor.
Pots and pans are banging. You realize you have lost all control. And I'm here to promise you,
you will never get it back again. You will never get it back again. You only control yourself.
You have no control over anybody else. And so if you are giving love with the expectation
that you're going to get love in return, first of all, it's probably not going to come back to you
the way you think it should. And so right away, you're behind the eight ball, but you are just
setting yourself up for a heartbreak and sadness and loneliness. You give love because that's what
we're supposed to do. You give love, period. If I give you money and you give me a pair of jeans,
that's a transaction. Love is not a transaction. Love is one way you give it. Now it's special
in that a lot of times when you give it, you get it back. But that's not why you do it. You give it,
whether you get it back or not, it's up to you. Your love is 100% on you.
You know, your example there, I often, and when I'm with my clients, I give a extreme answer on
purpose just to kind of test out the logic and show that, okay, I'm not saying what's going on
with you is what we're talking about here, but the logic here is what's going on. And I've had
a client and we're talking about boundaries and I agree there are boundaries that we need to set on
other people, but we were talking about that very thing of I'm not getting anything back in return.
And I used an extreme example of with my kids, like my son is not two years old yet. There's not
a lot he gives me. Like he gives me some hugs and stuff and that's nice. He certainly doesn't help me
out financially. I'll tell you that it doesn't help me with his dirty diapers. There's a lot of
things he doesn't help me with, but I love him. Like that doesn't give me a right to just, well,
you're not giving me anything. So I got to shove you out of my life. Now, granted, I acknowledge
that's an extreme example there and other relationships, maybe there are other boundaries
that get formed. But that proves your point there that love is not that transaction. I don't wait
for the day that my son can pay me back for all the finances that we give into him. No, I love him
because he's my son. That's it. There's nothing else that he earned that love. He's my son and I love
him. And we need to think of that too of us being God's creation. We have worth not because of these
great acts that we've done because we've proven our love. No, we have worth because he made us.
And how wonderful that not only did he make us, but as Christians, we believe he sent his son to
die on the cross and die for our sins. That's incredible. That gives us worth. That gives us
love. Let's point in that direction instead of the kind of the woe is me, they treated me bad.
So therefore, everybody hates me and not to dismiss that bad things happen or that we can't be
frustrated at other people. But again, that kind of turns inward real quick. And we look at myself,
my needs above everybody else. And again, we're not getting love in that situation. At best,
we might be getting a transaction, like you said. Right, right. And God doesn't love us because we
love him back. Right? I mean, we don't all love him back. And we don't all love him back every
minute. So, you know, if we're talking about the love that God is being that love, it has to just
go outward. I had this moment in my marriage early on, had a couple kids and diapers, you know,
whatever they were young. And I was doing everything. I was doing all the laundry. I was making
dinner every night. I was changing every diaper. I was taking care of the house. I was doing it
all. And my husband would come home from work. And he would go sit on the couch, put his feet up,
not need wander over to the dinner table when the food was on the table, not need to eat,
and then he'd wander back over on the couch, maybe lay down, take a nap, turn out a football game
or something. And I'm thinking, well, what the heck? He's just given me more work because he's
given me more laundry. Like, who is he to me right now? Like, I was looking at him like he was
just a paycheck. Like, where was his value? What was he giving me? What was he adding to this
relationship? And maybe my life would be easier without him. Maybe that relationship had run
as a course and I needed to walk away. I mean, I really thought about it because I was doing it
all. I was overwhelmed at doing it all. But then I stopped. And I thought, you know, I want a great
relationship. My parents did not have a great relationship. And I did not want the relationship
my parents had. I wanted a great relationship. I wanted a great marriage. And I knew that if I
wanted one, that it's up to me, that it's up to me. So I decided in that moment that I was going to
do everything I could to make my husband happy, no matter what it was, everything I could. And I
didn't put a timeline on it. I didn't say I'm going to do this for four weeks and dog on if he
doesn't shape up, then he's out of here. You know, I didn't do that. No timeline, nothing. I just
decided this is what I was going to do. I was going to make him happy. And so I'd write a little note
before work or I would buy his favorite treat at the grocery store, you know, just kind of whatever
it happened to be. And things changed. And it didn't take that long for things to change. And
of course, he saw that there was a difference. He felt the difference, even if he didn't know the
difference, he felt the difference. And, and his heart softened toward me. But the biggest change
was me and my heart, because I loved doing things for him, because I love him. I loved doing those
little things. I love doing that. I loved creating romantic moments. I loved all that stuff. And,
and he always said that he wasn't romantic because he was left handed. I don't think that's really
an excuse. I just think some people are and some people aren't. And sometimes you need, I want romance.
I love romance. So I, I first begrudgingly, I was the one to create it. And then I realized, no, I love it.
So it's so fun to create it. And he really enjoyed it when I did. But he was happy as a clam, just
cuddling on the couch watching TV, like he didn't need the candles and the rose petals, you know, he was
fine without it. I needed it. So I was the one to create it. But I loved my husband so deeply after that,
after making the decision to do it, to really just be that one way love that, that love him. You know,
so often that, you know, you talk about turning inward, right, things that are inward and in our head,
not in our head, like they're, they don't exist, but being in our own head. And it's, it can be so easy to say,
well, what am I getting back, you know, what's in it for me? And when you go to work, you do that, you say,
well, what's in it for me? And they say, well, you're going to get this much pay, you go, okay, then, then I'll do it,
you know, but love isn't like that. Love, love doesn't work that way. Love is, is just something that you give.
And when you do, when you live love, it's happy. It's joyful. It's not begrudging, you know, love doesn't envy,
doesn't boast it. It's not proud. It doesn't easily anger, right? None of the doesn't keep a record of wrongs.
All those things that love doesn't do. But what love does do is love. And it's just such a happier, more freeing way to live.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, it is. And I think that's a big point there too, is it's, it's freeing. It's actually freeing to get out
and to serve others, to love others, because we're not that we're not in chains in our head, like, like you're saying there.
And I think that's something that as, as spouses, if you're in a marriage, but again, not just in marriage, that love goes well, well beyond just marriage,
but asking yourself, what can I, what can I do about it? What's something I could do to make the situation better? So much healthier than just living in your head of,
oh, why didn't they do this? Why did they do that?
Recent book I read, it's actually kind of a compilation of sermons by Martin Lloyd Jones. It's called Spiritual Depression.
And he has this wonderful line there that talks about we need instead of listening to ourselves, we need to talk to ourselves.
And what he means by that is instead of just listening to all those thoughts in your head of all those emotions, I can't believe he did that.
I can't believe she said that. If we, if we trust our hearts and believe all things in our head, we're going to get somewhere nasty pretty quick.
But instead talk to ourselves. What do we know that is true? What scripture and lines with what love is?
You have lived that you know what that is. Talk to ourselves, talk that truth into ourselves going to lead to far better results than just that typical,
you know, kind of do what you love, trust yourself, all of those things that doesn't lead to very good results.
Right, right. You know, I, it's so true. And I love that line too. I love that. I love that you should talk to yourself. I love that.
There are times, though, that love would say walk away.
Like if you're being abused, if you're an abusive relationship, if you're in a dysfunctional relationship that is not healthy, by staying, you're enabling the person that you're with to continue in that behavior.
You're not allowing them the space to grow. And so there are times that love would say walk away because because you love them, you walk away, which is counterintuitive.
You think we have to stay, you know, especially as Christians. Oh my gosh, you can't get a divorce. You can't, you can't leave them. You can't whatever, you know, if you've got a problem with an adult child or whatever it happens to be.
We think we got to stay. We got to stick it out. We'll pray for them.
But if you're being abused, if things are that unhealthy for you, walk away and give the person the freedom, the space they need to be able to change if they're going to change because if they change, it's on them.
It's up to them. But by loving them, you walk away. And there are times when that's absolutely the thing you have to do. But that's love. That's not not love.
I'm glad you bring that up because we so often when we were talking about the things we're talking about, that's the quick reaction. And I don't want to dismiss that that absolutely does happen.
It does abuse is an awful thing that is certainly not love in any way, shape or form.
And oftentimes those attacks are levied in a sense of really just kind of lobbying grenades at Christians and trying to just almost kind of like the abortion debate of let me come up with this extreme example to show that, oh, that that that's a wonderful thing.
Let me come up with an extreme example to show that divorce is always the right thing. Now that's extreme. And that's not what you're saying, though.
You're saying there's times that because love is so important, because marriage is so important.
I'm actually giving them the opportunity to change if they're going to, because this is not love. And there needs to be either consequences from sometimes from the state, if there's an arrest that's warranted from the church.
I think this is a big thing that the church needs to do a better job of. If you're being abused, like, tell your pastor about it. And if your pastor is not doing anything about it, or your church isn't doing any discipline, that's probably not a very healthy church that we need to take abuse extremely serious.
And instead of just, nope, that's love. I need to be abused. I shouldn't ever even talk about any discipline because that's not love. No, that is not that's not scriptural. That's not what true love is.
So I'm really glad that you speak to that side, which I certainly pray no one listening is going through that, but statistically, probably somebody is. And we need to act in those situations and not just sit there and take it because that's that really isn't what love is.
Right, right. And love doesn't judge. There's no judgment in love. There's no judgment.
And, and so, you know, when you're a Christian and then the church, and it's tell that to us part, and you walk away.
You can be judged who cares what other people think you, you know, if somebody's hitting you that that's not good, you know, even if you don't tell anybody, it's not something you have to live in.
And, but we feel like we have to stay. I mean, as women, in particular, we feel like we have to stay. And I'm giving you permission to not stay. Don't stay in the abuse walk. It's okay to walk away.
Love would say God would say walk away.
And this is something that's important on the male side to that that I want to pay attention to. I don't think any male just decides, you know what, I feel like beating my wife today, like that generally is not a conscious decision that someone just decides to do.
It's unchecked anger, unchecked grief, maybe you had some bad examples growing up. But regardless, there's there's no excuse, and you need to get your heart checked on that. And ideally, if you're listening, your husband, get your heart checked before anything bad happens.
This isn't on the kind of the spouse or abuse side of things. But I remember when my, my daughter was born or first born, that at the hospital, they made us watch this video and it was called purple baby, I believe is what it was.
And remember watching it and essentially one they called it, no, it was purple screams, I think is what it was. Basically what it was is a baby that has horrible sleeping and just screams and is just really hard to deal with.
And essentially was telling parents, don't shake your baby. That's very bad. And I remember watching that I was like, of course, I'm not going to shake my baby like that's, I don't need to watch a video to be told that.
Then I had my first born who was a horrendous sleeper. And I remember there being times at three in the morning or whatever, that I never had that desire like, oh, I'm going to go shaker.
But I remember being humbled of realizing, I get it. I get when you're sleep deprived, and you're in this horrible spot in life of why you might do something like that.
Again, it's horrible. Don't advocate to do that. But I was glad I had some of that education beforehand. And being able to talk with my wife of, hey, it's time for us to just let her cry for a few minutes and get our own wits about us.
Because I'd be able to see that in each other, that we need to cool ourselves down because we didn't want to be put in that position.
So husbands, dads, even moms in those type of situations, again, kind of like with grief, don't wait for a moment for you to snap.
Deal with some of that anger, that frustration, whether it's towards your spouse or your work or whatever. Deal with it well before it gets to that point.
Because if you're too prideful to think you would never be at that point, I'm not saying it will happen to you. And I hope it doesn't. But it could.
None of us are above doing some evil things. So get that taken out quickly and don't let it take root.
Yeah, good word. Good word for sure.
Okay. Well, Kim, great conversation on both grief and serving and love. I would love for the audience to be able to stay in contact with you and find some places that they can continue to engage with you and your books and everything.
So for the audience, how can they stay connected with you after this episode?
Well, I am literally the only Kim Serrell spelled my way in the entire world because it's ridiculous. It has so many letters. There's two R's, two E's, two L's.
But my website is kimserrell, so R-R-E-L-L-E dot com.
And I do have a free 14-day love challenge on there. And if you do the love challenge, you sign up for it. I'll send you for free at WWLD, What Would Love Do? wristband.
Because if you can answer anything that way, you'll be doing the right thing.
But my book is Love Is. It's available on Amazon. It's available in brick and mortar stores. It's available everywhere. It's a dark blue cover with a great big white Love Is. And it's available audio, Kindle, and paperback.
And I love people and I love being in contact with people. And so reach out. Anybody wants to reach out, please reach out to me.
Awesome. Well, I'll have all of that included down there in the show notes. So definitely encourage you to check that out there.
And thank you once again to Kim of being on the show, sharing her incredible story of grief and incredible story of love. And just really appreciate the conversation today.
Yeah, well, thank you. I really appreciate you and I really appreciate the opportunity and I feel like we kind of ended on this downstroke.
But love is a beautiful thing that does not judge. There's no room for racism or ageism or any kind of an ism. It just loves and recognizes that that, you know, I think sometimes about like the Mona Lisa, that it is, if it ever went up for sale,
who knows how much money someone would pay for it, you know, Elon Musk, millions and millions. I who knows who knows who would buy it now much money.
Well, it's because it's a one of a kind masterpiece. And so are you. There has never been anybody exactly like you. There never will be anybody exactly like you.
You are the only you ever, ever, ever. And there's something really special and wonderful about that that God made you to be you.
So love yourself, you know, recognize that God created you to be exactly who you are. And you are a one of a kind masterpiece.
And that's the last recent episode where we talk about God being an author God being creator. That's it. We have our worth because of God, because we are made in his image. And as you're saying there, certainly don't lose sight of that. That is a that is a big deal.
We did do anything to earn that. But we, we are in his image and that that's incredible.
Thank you for being on the show. Thanks again for everyone listening for for continuing to listen and being engaged in the show. And let's just continue to fight for truth. And I'll see you on the next episode.