Welcome back to another episode of Faithfully Engaged.
Today we have Paul Granger on as a guest.
So, Paul, it's great to see you and why don't you tell the audience just a little bit about
yourself.
Yeah, well, it's great to be here.
I appreciate the opportunity and I'm looking forward to the conversation.
And one of the ways that I like to introduce myself is my role as ambassador of Christ.
So like when we meet somebody new, we want to know what their job is.
What is it that you do?
And we put a lot of stock on that identity.
I've had a number of things in my life that have brought me to the place of realizing
that my job is ambassador of Christ.
My identity is someone made in the image of God that's being invited to represent him,
both in functional and unexpected ways.
And so practically the way that plays out is I am full-time ministry, fully support-based,
and that takes many forms from content creation.
I run a podcast, Where Did You See God, to writing things, to conversations on the porch,
to facilitating a community Bible study, to serving alongside youth with a mission.
But the funny thing is, over the last five years, there's been a lot of inconsistency,
a lot of uncertainty, a lot of unknowns, because God's basically inviting me to wake
up every day and say, am I willing to seek God first?
Am I willing to step where He invites me to step?
And then when I do it, I may not know what's ahead, but I know God's ahead.
Yeah.
I think that's a fantastic way to describe that, and that's something we are, I think,
all pretty guilty of.
Well, like me, I'm a counselor, and that's what I start that introduction by.
So let's start with that of Ambassador of Christ.
Kind of explain to the audience what exactly you mean by that.
What's it mean to be an ambassador of Christ?
Yeah.
Well, when we think about ambassadorship in general, the idea is that somebody has been
given the opportunity, the privilege, the responsibility to represent something bigger
than them, something that that's not themselves.
So we think of it often in terms of somebody being an ambassador of their country.
So if I were to be an ambassador of the United States, I would go to some other country and
I would represent the United States.
I would represent what that means to be a United States citizen, the interests, the
desires, the hopes.
Sometimes I will be given specific things to communicate to other leaders.
And so when we bring that into what it means to be ambassadors of Christ, we are being
given the opportunity, the privilege, the responsibility to represent something very
much beyond ourselves, to represent God, to represent Christ.
A lot of times what we end up doing is basically just wearing a name tag that says Christian,
but that's the extent to which it impacts our lives.
And we're not intentionally doing this, but functionally, the worries of life, the desires
of life become the things that we are predominantly focused on.
But an ambassador, a good ambassador, knows that at every moment they are representing
their country.
They are representing their leader.
So what they say, what they do matters.
And so when we talk about being ambassadors of Christ, there is this idea of recognizing
that whatever life was about, whatever we were pursuing, we are making the conscious
choice to say, I'm forgoing all of that for the sake of representing Christ and sharing
Him with whoever God puts in my path.
And that could be a tricky thing because like I mentioned, there's a lot of uncertainty
in that.
Let's look at the disciples.
The disciples knew what their lives were about before Jesus showed up.
Peter, I'm a fisherman.
My dad was a fisherman.
My grandpa was a fisherman.
My kids are going to be fishermen.
I know what it means to get in a boat and get the fish.
I get paid for the fish I get.
I feed my family.
I get in the boat the next day and repeat.
Then this guy comes up who Peter can tell there's something special about him.
And Jesus basically says to him, hey, would you like to be unemployed and follow me around?
Right?
And Peter was stepping into something that he had no experience of that was beyond his
comprehension.
We see him wrestling with trying to grapple with this identity of Jesus, the purpose of
Jesus throughout the three years of ministry and even into acts.
But Jesus continues to invite him to represent him.
He invites Peter to be a representative and ambassador of who he is and what he's doing,
both in really functional ways when Jesus sends out all the disciples, all the way up
to when Jesus commissions Peter, basically said, I would like you to be one of the spiritual
leaders of what my body, the church is going to look like.
And so we can look at Peter and see all the ways that we can misstep in that and all the
ways that God can work despite our missteps.
But the big thing that we see is where Peter lands at the end of his life is nothing like
what Peter would have expected, which is Ephesians 3.20, right?
To him who's able to do far exceedingly more than we could ask or imagine.
I don't know what Peter was asking for or imagining for his life, but being a fisher
of men was probably not it.
Being an ambassador of Christ who he watched be beaten and crucified and then come back
to life and then rise up in the sky like was not on his docket.
And yet at some point or more at multiple points, he made the conscious decision to accept
that invitation, to accept that opportunity, to accept that responsibility, and then to
learn what it means to live that out.
So for us, it's the same.
It starts with us being willing to say, okay, I'm willing to kill him.
Count the cost and step into this unique role.
And then I know tomorrow I'm probably going to have to learn a little more about what
that means.
And the next day, and the next day all the way up to the end of our lives.
Because the apostle Paul says not that I've achieved perfection, but I continue to run
the race.
We're going to continue to learn what this looks like.
But it really is a beautiful invitation because again, abundantly more is waiting for us when
we step into it.
You know, as you were talking, my thoughts were kind of going to something we've really
been talking about at my church and my small group specifically, of really of about stewardship
and particularly financial stewardship.
But really just in general, that when we look at stewardship, it's looking at taking care
of something that is not your own.
And being that ambassador, you are intentionally laying down your own life and raising up a
life that is way better than anything that you could imagine, like you're saying with
Peter there.
And same thing kind of goes in the on the financial side of things.
If you are a believer and you do your tithe, do your offering, you're intentionally giving
up money and the worldly view like, well, why do you do when you could be using that
money for something great?
But we look at it as Christians that ultimately that's not even our money.
That's like God gifted us that and we are needing to use it for what's best for him
and best for his kingdom.
And kind of on that line of thinking on the financial side of things, being an ambassador,
being a steward of money, how does one faithfully use money and be able to really thrive in
that condition while not trying to just maximize the amount of money and the bank account?
How does one make sense of that?
Well, and it's tricky.
The scripture says that the root of all evil, a root of all evil is the love of money.
It's something to that effect, but there is some uniqueness about how it's worded that
I've taken that in the past as meaning greed.
So as long as I'm not greedy, I'm fine.
But there's something about the implication of it being the love of money that isn't just
like, I love money, give me all the money.
But sometimes it's, I need money in order to survive.
So it's hitting on both ends.
And there's this fear of the financial that we often carry.
Because logically, it's a legitimate thing.
We need certain things to exist, food, water, and shelter.
Those things typically aren't free.
So if they're not free, that means they cost money, right?
And well, in order to get money, you either have to have a job or get really lucky and
win the lottery or get an inheritance or some other random thing.
But for the majority of the world, it's through employment.
So you have to have a job to get the money and you need the money in order to survive.
And again, we talked about this idea of Peter had this more or less steady income.
And then Jesus says, come be unemployed with me.
And there were numerous points at which they didn't have enough money.
There is a point where they're walking into the city and Jesus sent a disciple, it might
have been Peter, are coming in and they see a tax collector and the disciples like, whoa,
whoa, whoa, what are we going to do?
We don't have money to pay the taxes.
We need money.
And so, and there's no way for us to get money.
Wherever you look at the feeding of the 5,000, all these people need to eat.
We don't have the money to feed them.
What Jesus responds to in that moment is the reality that you don't actually need money.
You need God.
God is provider and God can provide in creative ways.
So for the taxes, he's like, why are you worried about this?
Just go to that fish and reach in and there's money in there.
Or why are you worried about the food?
Just feed them.
And they're like, we don't know how.
And he's like, okay, fine.
I've got a couple loaves, a couple fish, give it to me.
Right?
And he does this many times.
In fact, even beyond Jesus, throughout scripture, we see God providing in miraculous, unexpected,
impossible ways.
And yet we as believers continue to fall back into financial fear.
So I think that's the starting point.
We have to acknowledge that we do have a love of money, whether it's greed or a fear of not
having it.
We have that and it drives us to make decisions.
I want to trust God, but I need to keep this job.
Or I want to trust God, but I have to do this.
Or I want to trust God, but if I do that, I could lose money.
Ministries, churches, how often do they make decisions out of fear that that donor might
not give if they do a certain thing?
Right?
We're constantly making decisions out of the fear of the financial.
Well about five years ago, I unexpectedly lost my job.
And I say unexpectedly because it happened in a way that it didn't happen for anyone
else.
No one expected it, but God actually gave me a heads up that it might happen.
And so I was able to go in with a piece and an awareness of the spirit working.
There's a whole story around that that I won't tell at this moment.
But what I will say is that it happened at really the worst possible time.
We were already tight on our income.
My wife and I both worked at the same ministry and we're working at a ministry, which doesn't
pay a lot, but my wife was pregnant with a third child.
So losing a job, that's not good.
I need money in order to pay for all the mortgage and the food for the kids and the kid that's
coming and you need a job.
And God told me, don't operate out of fear of the financial.
Trust me as provider.
He actually invited me to not job search for that first month and for that second month.
And then in going into the third month, the invitation was just to do my due diligence.
To not stress, to not like, oh, I got to get a job.
I ended up being unemployed for six months.
And yet in that, there is this deep awareness that God was provider, that I didn't need
money that I needed God.
God could provide through money, but he could provide in other ways.
My wife and I, we worked the numbers.
We knew when our money was going to run out.
You know what didn't happen?
Our money running out.
You know what else happened?
Christmas.
Me ending up in the hospital, my wife having a child, my cat needing dental surgery, my
car needing work.
And not only were all those things covered, but we didn't scale back.
We didn't say, sorry, kids, no gifts this Christmas.
We didn't say, sorry, kids, it's going to be spaghetti every night.
Like God invited us to continue to operate as we were operating, not to operate out of
fear.
And at the end of that unemployment, I had job opportunities and this clear invitation
from God to step into something really crazy, which was to work with youth with a mission,
which for anyone who knows, they know that nobody gets paid at YWAM.
Everybody's a volunteer.
You basically, I don't want to say you live off support because that in a way goes against
what I'm saying.
I don't live off of support.
I trust God as provider.
He chooses to provide through people, through the generosity of others.
And he's also provided in unexpected ways, ways that I don't even, I can't even explain
right now.
And I just hit the four year mark of that.
Two of those years, by the way, my wife felt like God was calling her to leave her job.
So now we had no income and God continued to provide.
And so what I'm trying to drive home here is that we have an unhealthy understanding
of money and unhealthy reliance on money.
And it's a logical understanding and reliance.
But the wisdom of God is foolishness to man.
Jesus says to count the cost.
We're being invited to, you know, as Proverbs three, five and six says, trust in the Lord
with all of your heart and do not lean on your own understanding and all your ways submit
to him and he will set your past straight.
God's basically saying, look, I get it.
I know you have your own understanding.
I want to invite you to not lean on it.
You could be aware of it, but don't lean on it for your support.
Trust in me.
Fully trust in me.
I know what I'm talking about.
If you submit to me, I'm going to set your past straight.
And so that's the big answer.
Because God has has a proven track record of being faithful as provider and he continues
to invite us.
And so when we are finding ourselves fearful or struggling, it's not because God dropped
the ball, but sometimes it's because we're not actually reaching for the ball from them.
We're trusting ourselves or, and this is a, this is another big thing.
We set in our minds how things should work.
And so when God doesn't give us, you know, if I'm a missionary and I know what number
I feel like I need to meet and it's not hit, then I can say, oh, God's not providing.
Right.
Like, well, maybe God doesn't want to fill your bank account.
Maybe he wants to do like he did with the Israelites and give you manna.
He didn't give him a stockpile of manna that then he's like, all right, here you go.
I'll check back in in a month.
Like the idea wasn't that they were getting stuff from him.
It was relationship.
It was that by getting that manna every day, they were continuing to remember who God was.
They were continuing to remember that God was providing for them, that they had the opportunity
to trust anybody who tried to stockpile.
So they didn't have to deal with God the next day or they didn't have to risk it just in
case it's not there.
Didn't work out.
It rotted.
Now this was magical manna because there is this rule that it would only last a day except
on the Sabbath, at which point they could gather double in the last two days.
God knows what he's doing.
He's doing the impossible, but he's also doing it because he desires that connection with
us.
Do we actually want connection with him?
That's the question we don't always want to ask.
I think that's a fantastic way to put that.
And this kind of, I'm going to talk this out a little bit, but leads us to my next question
of I hear often, not necessarily intentionally, but practically of different spheres.
And some of this is legitimate.
Like how I am at work isn't exactly the same as how I am at home.
How I am with my friends isn't exactly how I am with my family.
Some of that is just reality and truth.
But what happens is we often have our spiritual sphere.
Here's my church sphere.
Here's my prayer sphere.
And that stays over here.
It doesn't infect my work sphere or my family sphere, it's just its own little bubble there.
So to somebody that either explicitly believes that or just practically is kind of believing
that one, what's wrong with that?
Why should they not believe that way?
And two, if they are, what do they do about it?
How can they stop doing that?
Yeah.
Well, I want to encourage everyone that like you said, it's logical.
I mean, we're raised into this idea of how to function.
It makes sense.
It's natural.
But the reason that it's not a great way to think is because it's not actually how reality
works.
And I'll put it like this.
The way I used to describe it when I ran internships is like you were saying, it's like we have
this table and we have all these components of our life and we have our spirituality,
our relationship with God.
Yeah, that's important.
And we have our own center, but also my education or my job or my relationships and my home
and my community.
And now the table is starting to get crowded.
And well, this passion of mine, this is important.
So I'm not pushing God out the way, but let's put both of these in the center.
But oh, man, oh, no, I'm starting to stress out about this.
And so this has got to be the focus.
And we don't notice it happening, but God's getting pushed a little more, a little more
to the edge of the table, possibly falling off the table.
And then we're like, oh, man, how did this happen?
Or what do I do?
Or we just feel overwhelmed.
And that makes sense.
We've got all these things in our life and it can feel hard to make space for God.
The problem with that is that isn't actually how reality works.
God isn't some part of the table.
The spiritual isn't some thing on the table.
It is the table.
Like our reality is spiritual.
And so a right understanding is to say that is spiritual and all these things, therefore,
on top of it.
This is why Scripture talks about the ability in anything you do, you can serve God, right?
Like, and some people will reference it.
So that means if I'm cleaning toilets, I can be serving God.
And it could sometimes be a little bit of mental acrobatics trying to make that work
in our heads, because it's like, how does scrubbing a toilet actually glorify God, especially
if it's my toilet and not somebody else that I'm serving.
But the thing is, is if the table is spiritual, if our reality is a spiritual reality, then
that means anything that's happening is naturally a part of that.
And so that's the first step for someone who wants to break that is to step back and actually
consider that reality.
What if God isn't something that I've got to fit amongst all these things, but actually
is present in the midst of all these things.
And so when I am at work, it doesn't have to be this independent, separate thing that
I function differently than I do at church.
I can recognize God's with me in this space.
When I'm doing some menial task, I can recognize, I can do this as a way of honoring God, like
as a way of life.
God, I'm going to put my best into this as a way to show glory to you.
Like, I mean, it could be small things like that, but the bigger thing is our mentality.
Are we willing to actually recognize that all of it is within God's domain?
Or do we want to stay segmented?
And then God is the one to two hours on Sunday.
And maybe if we're awake in time and have the energy some amount of time each day or
every other day, or like God, God doesn't have to be segmented.
Now the good news is, is it also can be very organic.
I think the other problem is we're kind of raised into this segment in mindset because
we think of engaging God in very stringent ways.
So it's church, it's praying, it's reading your Bible.
And depending on your experience of that, those can look very specific too.
It's 30 minutes in your Bible and you have to have your journal.
And prayer has to be quiet and it has to be for this amount of time and you got to have
a list.
Well, what happens if you've got young kids and there is no such thing as quiet in your
house?
What if you're working like two jobs and there's no such thing as spare time?
What if you're working a job that actually puts you on the schedule on Sundays and you
can't go to church regularly?
You can't build that community.
Like there's all kinds of, there are people in the world that are working every day just
to get like one meal on the table for their family.
So are they not able to have a relationship with God?
Well, no, actually they can because connecting with God can take many different forms depending
on the season of our lives.
It's great if we're in a season of our life where we have ample time to pray or ample time
to read the word or ample quiet.
But in the absence of that, God can connect with us even when we have very little offer.
We see this with Elijah when he is like at the end of himself and he's like, just take
me now, God, I'm just, I'm out of strength and God meets him in that space.
Elijah's offering very little at that point.
Like God is doing the heavy lifting there, but there is still connection there.
And as he builds his strength, maybe he's able to contribute a little more.
And so it can feel hard to seek God in certain spaces.
It can feel unnatural and especially if we feel like it has to look a certain way.
Seeking God in my secular work environment, I guess does that have to look like evangelizing?
And what if I get in trouble?
Or what if it feels awkward?
Or what if I lose relationships?
Well, maybe it doesn't look like that.
Maybe it looks like extending love.
Maybe it looks like interacting with that person that nobody else is interacting with.
Maybe it looks, I don't know, maybe it looks like sitting in silence during your break
and just spending time with God.
The bottom line is it can take that, take different forms and our starting point is
simply saying, God, I want to seek you, help me to know what that looks like.
Just start simply like that and see what God brings out.
I like that.
I love the kind of the imagery there of, no, that God is a piece of the table.
He is the table.
He is all.
And we are the ones that are just trying to manage the little life, the little speck
of life that we have and really keeping that in context.
And I'm big on this just in my counseling practice of break it down to the smallest piece.
If I'm working with somebody and they want to start exercising, they are, they realize
the physical health, the spiritual health, the mental health, all the benefits of exercise.
But they see their best friend that's running a marathon and that guy wants to invite them
to go with them.
That's pretty intimidating.
But what's not intimidating is going and walking to your mailbox.
You could do that.
It's kind of the same thing here.
It'd be great to pray an hour long a day and read an hour long a day.
Fantastic.
And if you can get there, great, but do something.
We don't have to over complicate it.
Just seek God and do something.
And I think that makes that really practical the way that you explain that.
I had a pastor that the way he worded it is the low hanging fruit.
When you're in a season of war in your life where just it's really hard, just go for the
low hanging fruit.
That is a simple way that you can connect with God.
Does music, does worship music help you connect with God?
Okay, then start there.
Play some worship music.
Is it prayer?
Is it the word?
Whatever it is, just the low hanging fruit.
And the reason that doesn't seem like enough is because we have built this idea that only
the best is enough.
Like, we'll look at that ministry worker who's started this phenomenal nonprofit is doing
amazing things or this pastor that's speaking eloquently and knows all these scriptures
or this person that prays for 20 hours a day or this, right?
Like those are our metrics of success.
That's not God's metric of success.
God's not saying, all right, I only want the best because you look at scripture.
He didn't choose the best most of the time.
He intentionally chose the least chose the people who are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, why
are you choosing me?
Moses is like, I can't talk well.
Gideon's like, I'm the least of the least of the least.
Jonah's like, I don't even like those people.
All right, like he chose people that didn't bring a whole lot to the table because at
the end of the day, it was their willingness to step despite all their reasons, not to step
that made the big difference.
And so yeah, that low hanging fruit, those small steps, those small things, like in our
minds, they look small, but in God's eyes, they're huge.
Right, again, like five loaves and two fish, small.
That's small.
Nobody thought anything could happen with that.
The woman who gave the two mites is her contribution.
Everybody looked down at her.
That's a small donation.
Jesus looked at both those things and was like, y'all don't even know how big this is.
So like, yeah, don't feel shame about your minuscule offering to God.
Like if it's an authentic offering to God, be like the woman who gave the two coins and
recognize that Jesus is looking at that and is like that, look at that.
So and so had no strength left, no desire left, and they gave those two minutes or they gave
those two smiles to that person or that Jesus sees that and knows how much bigger, how much
fruit that can produce.
Even if we can't see it, doesn't mean God can't.
Absolutely.
And another thing that kind of comes to my mind when you're saying that is, well, really
two things.
I've had this conversation with several people recently about something that my church does.
Once a month, we kind of have a potluck and one quarter, every quarter we end it with a
business meeting, but the other first Sundays of the month, we just do a potluck and then
somebody from the church shares their testimony.
And I really love it because we're generally not great at sharing our own testimony or what
happens is a lot of people that grew up in the church and this is kind of how I was.
I grew up in the church and about the age of six, realized I was a sinner, realized Jesus
died for my sins and I accepted that.
And sure, there's other valleys and mountains throughout my life, but by and large, that's
the story.
God saved me at a young age and I'm super grateful for that.
And as I grew older and I heard some of these incredible stories, I was this motorcycle gang
member doing hardcore drugs and God saved me from that.
I'm like, well, what's my testimony?
My testimony is weak.
And the older I've gotten, the more mature in my faith I've gotten.
I've realized how silly that is that it's not about us.
None of us can save ourselves.
It's about who saved us.
That's where the testimony gets its strength from.
So that's one thing that I was kind of thinking through of don't doubt your testimony, no
matter how insignificant you might think it is.
It's not.
It is very significant.
The other thing that came to my mind of just the kind of the significance, I'm pretty big
on not demonizing technology, which is kind of a trend and some Christian circle sometimes
of chat, GPT is going to take us all down and that mentality.
Now, don't get me wrong.
Technology can be used for evil.
I won't say otherwise, but technology is fairly agnostic.
It can be used for good or for bad.
And I see this on social media that great things on social media of old sermons or you can
listen to some of the big guys out there.
Maybe you listen to a John Piper sermon or John MacArthur, whatever.
And there's great resources out there.
And I love that.
But that kind of goes back into like, oh, I'll never be like them.
Those guys, they got it all figured out.
I'm just this insignificant little pawn scum.
I'm not like them.
And you're missing the point.
They're not great either.
It's who they're pointed to.
And I guess that kind of leads into this next question there that somebody that feels like,
oh, my testimony is nothing.
I don't have this big strong ministry like they do.
What should they do to kind of look at their own heart and not downgrade their role?
Yeah.
What's hilarious about that is we keep forgetting what actually makes a good story.
Right?
Like, you've got the superhero movies now, right?
That are all about big action.
You know, there's the cost is huge and what could go wrong if they don't save the world.
But if we're honest, like, we know that that's one type of movie.
And most of us also like movies that don't, the stakes aren't so high.
So most of us like certain movies that it's kind of a chill pace, right?
So we are aware that stories can take different forms, but you're right.
When it comes to testimonies, we're going for the Marvel testimonies, right?
We don't want the simple coming of age story testimony.
We don't want the simple like buddy fun movies.
Like we don't want that because we want the big one because that's the one that, you know,
just breaks the box office.
But I think we got to remind ourselves who writes the story.
And if we're honest, we don't write the story.
We know that.
We will say, oh yeah, God writes the story.
And so when we're dismissing the story, we have to remind ourselves it's kind of like
we're going to God and saying, God, that wasn't a good story.
We didn't write a good one there.
Like there are people in our lives, if we know writers and if they're good writers, we won't
go up to them and necessarily just like dismiss all their work if it doesn't fit one thing.
Like we'll recognize they could write different forms.
There's a novel, here's a haiku, here's, you know, a short essay.
Like we, a good writer can write in different ways.
And in the same way God can write different types of stories because he knows the purpose
of the stories he's writing.
And there are stories that he's writing to be big and attention grabbing.
And there's other stories that he's writing for other purposes.
The other thing that we had to recognize is in that moment we can feel really isolated
and alone because it seems like everyone else has a good testimony, but I don't.
Well, are we really going to assume that we're the only ones with a seemingly simple testimony?
The truth is you were not because I've been there too.
For a long time I was like, I've got a boring testimony.
And but the thing is, is that there are things that are a part of my story that were also
a part of somebody else's story.
And when I'm willing to share that, it may not be the attention grabbing thing, but that
person's attention is going to be grabbed because they're going to be like, that's me.
I get that.
I was in the church all my life too.
I felt like things are really simple too.
Like I felt like I always just kind of knew God and my journey was coming to know him
deeper, like suddenly there's a resonating.
Some of my favorite movies are just simple ones.
The world's not ending.
There's no big score or anything.
It's just very simple.
It's a beautiful, simple story.
Maybe that's what God has for us.
And you know, the other piece of it too is we we treat testimonies as like a one and
done thing.
It's written and boom, there it is.
All right.
I got it on the shelf.
I got a bunch of books behind me now.
There's my testimonies right there.
Now, like what I've come to realize is that my testimony is continuing to be written.
There may be pivotal points where I made decisions to trust God or follow God or do this, that
or the other.
But I'm continuing to learn.
Peter had a pivotal point where he said, I'm not going to live the same way I have been.
I'm going to follow this Jesus guy.
That was his decision moment.
That's not his testimony.
That's a chapter of his testimony.
He had many other chapters leading up to being martyred.
And so now when I think of sharing my testimony, man, it takes so many different forms depending
on who I'm talking to, depending on what I feel like they've experienced.
And I'm able to actually share parts of my life almost as like independent testimonies.
Because again, like you described, I don't have that one singular date.
This is the day that I got off my Harley through the drugs in the toilet and stopped killing
people and said, Jesus, I'm yours.
Like I didn't have that.
But what that meant is I had, and everyone has this, but I've had so many moments of
consciously making a decision where I could go this way, but I'm going to choose God.
And now there are so many stories, so many chapters.
And it's exciting and also a little daunting that there are so many chapters ahead.
And so God is writing a story for everyone.
God is a good author.
He is a really good author.
And if the story doesn't make sense to you now, maybe that's because it's not done being
written.
Maybe the chapter's not done being written.
And I can guarantee you there will come a point where you will look back at a season
and you will see it differently than you did in the midst.
What seemed like an incoherent stringing of words together, you'll see the beauty, the
artistry, the intentionality around how God phrased certain things.
But it all starts with, are we willing to trust God as the author?
And the humility to say, often we don't.
And that's okay.
Are we willing to choose to trust now and then choose to trust again tomorrow?
I've really been getting into the idea of storytelling.
That's a big part of why I have this podcast, to hear other people's stories.
And my brain typically isn't the more artistic type, like my mom and sister.
They're better at that.
They can draw better and write more eloquently.
Their brain just works a little bit more in that way.
And my dad and I, my dad's more of an engineer type, so it's kind of a little bit more structured,
not as much on the story side.
But I'm starting to realize that stories are, they're not just a nice little book that we
read every once in a while.
It's life.
All of our lives are stories.
You put there, God is the author of these stories.
We can look at, I don't just have to look at a piece of art being hanging on a wall,
although that is art.
I can go look at a mountain.
That's incredible art.
But something that my wife and I really enjoy about mountains is because everyone is completely
different.
And we live in rural Oklahoma.
Every sunset is completely different.
And that is beautiful.
So art stories, even if you are not an artistic type individually, you need to learn the beauty
of that because it's more than just a left brain, right brain thing.
That's life.
Life is a story.
And we're forgetting the, in Acts, Jesus says, I got to go, but I'm going to send a
helper.
And there's this idea of this helper that actually equips the disciples to do things
that they couldn't do, that wasn't in their mindset or skill set to do.
And we forget the reality that our ability to serve God isn't contingent on our skill
set.
And so there are ways, like if somebody feels like they're not creative, first, we're made
in the image of God and God is creator.
So we're made in the image of the creator, which means that there are elements of creating
that are a part of our design.
But the other pieces is when we do not feel like the creative type, who's to say God can't
choose to create through us?
You know, there's this, I've gotten compliments on my ability, my abilities as a podcaster
and I always laugh when somebody gives me a compliment because the secret is it's not
actually me being good at it at all.
There are certain skill sets that I might bring the table like being quick on my feet
or like being able to have the podcast voice or something like that, right?
But I am keenly aware that the podcast episodes that get the most positive feedback weren't
because I had done a lot of work crafting the questions and this, that and the other,
like every single one begins with prayer and inviting the spirit to work.
Because what I know is there is no matter how good I am at something, there is a limit
to how good I can be.
And that's based on knowledge and skill, but also mood, also how well I slept, also on
how well technology works, also on all these factors is a lot that I can't control.
God's limitless.
And so God can do things.
God has often worked through podcast episodes in ways that I'm like, that was not me.
That was God.
And yet I had the privilege of being a part of it.
I'm an introvert, right?
Like I hate small talk, but one of the ways that God's invited me to serve and equipped
me to serve is I live in a neighborhood with a lot of foot traffic on my street and God's
invited me to be accessible and get to know neighbors.
And that is typically small talk.
If somebody's walking, you're not having a deep conversation.
And I remember talking to a woman that I had met maybe a month before.
God brought her name back to my mind and I was able to call her by name and she was
so excited because she was like, I didn't, nobody ever remembers my name.
Like remember my name.
And we're having this conversation.
I remember having this moment where I'm like, this is like, what I'm doing is extrovert
stuff.
Like how in the world is it me that's doing it?
Because this is not something I would have chosen, not something I would have been good
at because there are times where I'm not good at small talk.
You get me at a wedding reception.
Man, it's awkward.
But it was natural and it was because it wasn't me.
It was God working through me.
And so if someone doesn't feel creative.
If someone feels limited, great.
That actually means you're better poised for God to work through you because you're going
to be less geared to be prideful about it or arrogant about it because you're going
to, you're going to know it's not you.
That's a really good point there.
And again, it's been convicting.
I've had some recently had an artist on her name is Hailey from sweet sequels and she,
incredible artist, just skill way beyond my comprehension and actually really appreciate
that.
And part because I don't have that same skill set.
It doesn't make sense in my brain.
Like I don't, I don't understand how that comes from your hand.
It doesn't make sense to me.
And it is convicting from a conversation with her and from what you're saying though, that
we come from a creator.
So we all have creation ability and what's great too is when it comes when you know it's
not something from your own like incredible abilities, those of you that are listening
that that our parents, I know we both are.
Look at your kids.
That is the coolest creation ever.
How incredible that is.
And I mean, yeah, we, I think everybody listening knows the process of that being made.
But we know we didn't do anything incredible to make this child.
God made that child and it's awesome.
Sure it can be frustrating, but it's the best creation we will ever have.
So understanding our limits is actually quite an asset because yeah, we are limited, but
God isn't and being able to point to the true creator is really the end all here.
Because I think we have to remind ourselves that we don't have to be all the things.
So we'll look at someone and be like, I'm not as good at such and such as them.
You know, you talked about the artist.
Well not everybody needs to be an artist.
It's great that certain people are gifted are passionate about art, but it's okay if
somebody's not that doesn't mean they're lesser.
When I was running internships, I used to feel guilt around the fact that I would bring
certain speakers in and they would just clearly be better teachers than me.
Like something about the way that they could see information and bring it together and
convey it out.
They were just able to do things that I couldn't or I'd have to work really hard to do it.
And I felt shame because partly because of me and also externally there are certain individuals
putting pressure that I had to be all of those things.
One of the beautiful moments of release and peace was when I realized I don't have to
be a great teacher.
You have the the A Pest gifts, the five fold gifts, the apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd,
teacher.
I remember there was one specific individual who just very much is a teacher, very gifted
at it.
Like he could see information a certain way and bring it together and convey it out.
And I remember thinking it was actually such a beautiful, I was so grateful that he could
be there to live into that gift.
And it's okay that I am not living in that gift because he's living into that right now.
But I fall very heavily in shepherd, the pastoral care element, the walking alongside to be
being able to see sheep in certain situations and know how to get them to the water or how
to protect them from the bear.
Like that's where I felt like I was uniquely equipping me and positioning me.
Well, this individual, like he would name that that was one of his weaker spaces.
And so like I was able to fill a gap that he wasn't able to fill.
He was able to fill a gap that I wasn't able to fill.
And this is why, because we're not designed to operate in silos.
We're called to function as a body in unity.
Scripture is very clear that we're called to function as a body.
The arm needs the leg and the elbow needs the ear lobe.
Like all of those parts are important and those parts aren't meant, the arm is not meant
to be an ear.
But we can read that scripture and say, yeah, that makes sense.
And then go back into our life and lament that we're not as good as this other person
at that, or we're not gifted at that, or my gift doesn't matter.
Well, no, like God has actually put certain things within you that he's inviting you to
live out.
And he wants you to do so willing to do it, even if you don't see the fruit, even if you
don't get a claim, even if it doesn't look like the most amazing thing.
Because some things are hidden.
Some things, the apostle Paul says, I planted the seed, a polished water, and God made it
grow.
There are some things that God's inviting you to do that you're not going to be the
one to water or make it grow.
If you don't plant a seed, there's no plant.
So it's like you are an vital part of how God's working.
It's just we have to be willing to not be the spotlight.
Or there's a flip way of saying, because some people desire spotlight.
I've never been one to desire spotlight.
But what gets me is if negative perceptions are put on me.
So I don't need you to lavish me with praise.
But if you're speaking negative things, that's where it gets me.
Well, we have to be willing to be in a place where we're OK, not getting the spotlight.
And we're OK if people see us inaccurately.
People saw Jesus inaccurately, right?
Doesn't make it easy.
But that's part of what we're being invited to is to not to worry more about what God
sees than what others see.
Very, very well put.
Well, Paul, I think this has been fantastic.
And I really enjoy a lot of the kind of the theoretical here, but also the practical things
that the audience can do.
And that's really what the show is about, is to have people engaged, that to actually
live life and not just sit back and say, well, the world's stupid.
I don't like it.
And just be angry that that doesn't do us much good.
So for the audience to be able to continue to stay in contact with you and kind of check
out your own show, where can they find you?
Yeah.
So what God's invited me to is to create authentic, accessible spaces to process him, to process
life, to process Christianity, to process all these things that we have questions about.
And so I've tried to compile all that at wheredidooseagod.com.
So you can find the podcast anywhere you listen to podcasts, but you can also find it there
you can also find things that I've written.
But my goal is less to like show people my content and more to create those spaces because
God is difficult to understand sometimes life is difficult to understand sometimes.
And too often we're trying to do that on our own, but we can do this as community.
What you are doing here what you've created in this space is an example of how we can
navigate this together as community, as that body that Scripture invites us to.
So wheredidooseagod.com that's one place you can go.
But really I would just invite people to cultivate these spaces themselves to invite God to cultivate
these spaces because it could be as simple as scooting up next to that person during
the lunch break or opening your front porch.
And what God can do in those spaces really can be abundantly more than we could ask or
imagine.
Again, I accidentally put there so I will I'll include all that down and the show notes.
It was great having you on today having this great conversation.
And I think that's a good place to end it on is maybe a challenge for listeners.
Go do your own conversations with somebody.
It doesn't have to be a podcast.
Go find a neighbor, a friend, a church member, whoever just just go and talk about some of
these things.
It's really important.
So, yeah, again, great having you on.
For those listening, thank you so much for for listening again to another episode and
just continue to go out there and fight for truth.
All right, you guys take care.