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Well, welcome back everyone to another episode of Faithfully Engaged.

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I have a guest here that I met on the wide world of Twitter.

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We get all sorts of good interactions and also I'm sure we'll get into some bad interactions,

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but thankfully this has been a fun person to get to know a little bit on Twitter.

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So Robin, let me shoot it to you a little bit and why don't you tell the audience a

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little bit about yourself.

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Well, thank you so much for having me, Johnny.

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I appreciate it.

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Yeah, we met on Twitter.

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My name is Robin Atkins.

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I'm a licensed mental health counselor in Indiana and I specialize in reproductive mental

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health.

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So I see people with any type of traumatic event related to reproduction, which could

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be everything from infertility to pregnancy loss and everything in between.

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Great.

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And let me just start right there.

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I've had a few other counselors on the show before and this is a question I like to ask

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offline too, but what's your why?

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What got you into counseling in the first place?

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Counseling itself, not my specialty, but counseling.

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I knew at a very young age.

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I was reading Freud by age 12, so it was just kind of destined to be and actually 12 year

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old stuff, right?

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Right, normal 12 year old stuff, funny story.

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I have two siblings and we all have psychology degrees.

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So we joke that there must have been something wrong with our family and we all wanted to

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figure it out.

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We all went into different parts of psychology.

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So I'm the only therapist.

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The other two are working in other areas of psychology.

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But yeah, it was just from a very young age.

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I wanted to understand the human brain and human behavior.

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And so that was just a natural direction that I went into.

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I wasn't sure I originally wanted to be an FBI profiler.

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Then I decided I did want a family and that wasn't probably the safest and most conducive

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job to have children while doing.

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So it kind of shifted on its own somewhere in my 20s and then my specialty didn't start

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till my mid 30s and it found me.

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I didn't even know reproductive mental health was an option and it's still very rare to

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find a specialist in it.

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Yeah, tell us a little bit about that.

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And I'll be honest that I can understand a little bit of living through having two kiddos

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and my wife is, the time of recording this is eight months pregnant.

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So we're about to have another kiddo out into the world.

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So I see that side of her going through that.

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And obviously there are issues both with kind of ups and downs of pregnancy and then I would

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imagine too of ups and downs of infertility and all sorts of different issues.

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But all that being said, as a professional myself, I don't know a whole lot about that.

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And that's part of what was so intriguing to me.

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It seems like such a wide chasm that mental health isn't touching very much.

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So yeah, tell me a little bit about your journey getting into that as a specialty, what you've

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learned.

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Yeah, just go more detail about that.

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Yeah, so it started somewhere around 2010.

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My pregnancy with my oldest living son was extremely high risk.

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I was very, very sick.

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I was on bed rest for about eight months and then my water broke early and we had to rush

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to emergency section.

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He was in the NICU for a month.

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And while I was in the NICU, I was asking for a therapist and the response was, well, we

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can bring you a social worker and no disrespect to social workers.

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They're amazing, but it's not what I was looking for as far as the social workers at the high.

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I know some social workers do therapy and that's fantastic.

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But the social workers at this particular hospital did more community resourcing.

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And I didn't really need community resourcing.

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I needed somebody to help me process everything that had just happened to me and the new world

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that I was in because NICU is just its own biodome.

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So they said, we can't do that.

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You're going to have to leave to find a therapist outside of here.

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And I had a two year old at home and a premium in the NICU.

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So I was spending 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. at home and 8 p.m. to 8 a.m. at the hospital and I

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wasn't about to take time out to go do some self-care in the midst of that.

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So it didn't happen.

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And so at that point, I just knew I've got to do something about this.

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So for the next several years, I banged my head against several walls trying to get perinatal

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hospice and palliative care into our hospital systems here.

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And I live in Fort Wayne, Indiana.

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And here in Fort Wayne, we've had two major hospital systems for a long time.

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We have a third now coming, but we've had two main ones.

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And so I met with everybody at every possible part of the hospital.

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You can think of related to pregnancy, birth, postpartum, NICU, all the admin management.

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And the end line was always, we don't want to pay for it because it doesn't pay us back.

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So at that time, and still now, as a therapist, it's hard to bill while in the hospital.

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Every time I go see a patient in the hospital, I either do it pro bono or I have to get approval

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way ahead of time from the insurance company for every single visit.

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So to do that is really cost prohibitive for a hospital to hire a therapist to be on staff.

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And so it just wasn't going to happen that way.

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And then I had a loss of pregnancy loss and miscarriage after that.

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And I decided I couldn't continue.

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At that time, I was working with the Department of Children Services doing home based therapy

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with a lot of kiddos facing sexual abuse.

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And I started having secondary PTSD symptoms related to that.

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I have sexual abuse history in my childhood.

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And that really wasn't the issue is when I started having my own kids, it was the stuff

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I was hearing started to show up in nightmares about my kids.

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And I just couldn't continue in that path.

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So I decided to do private practice.

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And at that time, I didn't know reproductive mental health was on the horizon at all.

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I had not found anything anywhere else about it.

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I had studied perinatal hospice and palliative care for years, mostly in Europe and Australia.

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I didn't go there.

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I wish I had.

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If anyone wants to fund that trip, I'm open to that.

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But I just did a lot of reading on the research and the educational materials coming out of

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Europe and Australia.

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And so I opened up my private practice thinking I was only going to handle the issues that

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I had had personal experience with.

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And I had not experienced infertility other than several doctors had told me because of

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some issues I have, I would never have children.

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So I kind of, when I got married, thought I was never going to have biological children,

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but it didn't feel like, sometimes so young when they told me that I was 15, 16, when

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they started telling me that it didn't, at that age, I didn't care.

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And so it didn't feel like a big trauma to me or a little trauma.

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Actually, I just kind of assumed we would figure it out and my husband knew I couldn't.

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So we just kind of figured we'd figure out the kid thing.

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Whether it be fostering or whatever we were going to do.

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And so we didn't expect me to get pregnant.

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So I can't really say I had infertility.

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So I didn't think I was going to touch it.

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But as soon as people in my community here started hearing there was reproductive mental

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health specialists, not only was I getting a lot of referrals for pregnancy losses and

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traumatic birth, traumatic pregnancy, post-abortion, women that are at risk for abortion choices,

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I was getting a lot of referrals for all of that.

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But then people started calling me about infertility.

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And really, I have to credit my patients with that.

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I've been doing the specialty for eight years now, and they have been so generous with their

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vulnerability and their openness and their growth.

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And we all learn in grad school kind of the same techniques based on what theory of counseling

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we're doing.

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But they really showed me the knowledge I needed to have to meet them where they were

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without them having to give me a bunch of backstory and medical terminology.

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They taught me all of that, the first couple infertility clients.

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So I actually just finished writing a certification program in reproductive mental health.

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And it's 25 credit hours, and it covers all the different gamut of everything except for

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addiction during pregnancy.

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That would be its own 24, five-hour course.

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And I haven't wanted to touch that yet.

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I just finished writing this one.

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So maybe that's coming in the future.

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But there are, I know of personally about 20, 25 other people in the entire United States

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specializing in reproductive therapy.

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There are reproductive psychiatrists because there's a few universities that offer a doctorate

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in reproductive psychiatry.

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So that's really more of a medication management of postpartum, depression, anxiety, and psychosis.

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And I do the therapy end of all those things, but I'm not a prescriber.

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So there's a lot of money in pharmacology.

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So the schools are starting there.

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And maybe it'll dwindle down into, there was a reproductive mental health textbook published

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in 2021.

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And it was the first one for colleges to have a course on it.

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And it's wonderful.

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It's fantastic.

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It's literally called the Reproductive Mental Health Textbook.

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So that's for people still going through school.

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My certification courses for people that have already finished their degrees and are either

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getting licensed or already licensed that want a certification in it.

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I think it's great that there's at least some direction there.

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Again, I just, I've really been fascinated when I kind of saw you on Twitter and everything

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as a solvereproductive mental health on what on earth.

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It just makes so much sense when you explain it like that.

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It's like, now I feel more so like, what have we been doing?

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Like we've been, we've been missing a huge, huge chunk.

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And I loved what you said there too of even just on the hospital side of things.

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And unfortunately, and I won't get too much into this on my own personal side of things,

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because there is just a bottom line that kind of goes in there.

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That's not always about patient care.

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I know in my wife's kind of post-partum care, particularly our first daughter or our first

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child that was born, she would have benefited so greatly from what you were desperately

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trying to find there of just somebody coming in and just talking.

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You know, it's not like I didn't try to talk to her, but you know, I'm a counselor, but

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I'm not my wife's counselor.

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She needed kind of an impartial party to come in there, being able to talk with her.

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My daughter had jaundice.

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We had to stay an extra day.

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It wasn't anything major.

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She didn't even get any prescriptions, but she would have really benefited from that.

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First time mom, having a tough time, nurses could see that.

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What a great asset that would be to have for all of these mothers if they need that in

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the hospital.

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Well, when you think about just as a society, we don't talk about death well or birth well.

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They're like the two topics that I see most often in my office, births and deaths.

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That's what I see most often.

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We don't talk about either one well.

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It wasn't even until my husband and my third living child, I've had six pregnancies total.

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I have four living children that we kind of realized, you know, maybe before we add another

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one, we should try to figure out some ways this is going to impact our marriage and our

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relationship with our other kids and their relationships with each other and their relationships

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with the new baby.

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And like that was never anything that was ever taught to either one of us of when you

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are going to grow your family, you need to figure out how that impacts the relationships.

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People think about the money and what they need to buy for the baby and childcare.

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If they're working, but we don't really think about relationally how that's going to impact

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us.

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So even just that alone, I think most first time parents, I can honestly say when they

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handed me my daughter and they were like, you get to leave tomorrow is like, where's

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the manual?

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I don't understand why you're letting me leave with a living human being when I've never,

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ever done this before.

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So it's just kind of bizarre to me that in our Western culture, it's just kind of like

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just another day and you go back to work in a week.

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Yeah, no, I think that you're spot on and just even anecdotally, and I'm sure most

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listeners that have more than one kid can relate to this.

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I know in my life when my son was born, yeah, it was exciting.

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It was nerve wracking to a degree.

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But by and large, we had done that.

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We'd been there, done that.

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He came home.

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Life did continue a little bit more normal because we had done that.

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But we were so much more comfortable on that second go round.

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That first go round, no.

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Every parent, I think, is like, what on earth?

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What am I supposed to do here?

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And yeah, that is a disservice for our society to not talk about what is birth like, what

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are some of the issues that you might come into, but what are some of the great things

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you might come into?

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I know that's something that my wife has been trying to do with other mothers and things.

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Now that we're on our third kid, so often the talk with mothers is, oh, well, just

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wait till they're two.

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Just wait until they don't sleep or this next thing.

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And so is so negative.

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Have you seen that with both in your life, with just kind of people talking to you about

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being a mother, dealing with kids, and also with your clients, just an overall negative

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view towards parenthood and specifically motherhood?

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That's a really great question.

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Congratulations, by the way, on your pending third birth.

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Yeah, I think most of my patients that come see me, they don't necessarily talk about

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motherhood in a negative way, but they have one of two reactions.

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They will say all the commercials we see, all the advertising we see very much paints motherhood

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is easy and blissful.

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So every diaper ad in the world, everybody's smiling and everybody's happy.

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That's not what a new mom looks like.

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We haven't showered in weeks.

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Come on.

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So I think they're really irritated that they didn't know the reality of going into how

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hard it was going to be to go without sleep and not sure, are you going to eat or shower?

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You have to choose one or the other.

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All those things, but overall, the actual conversation between them and their friends

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tends to be negative.

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The complaining side, the wine mom complaining about the kid's side of motherhood.

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And it's interesting because I work with a lot of birth mothers, our first mothers,

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who their children have been adopted out and they have told me that's a large part of why

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they felt they couldn't parent.

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It's kind of the talk about how children interrupt lifestyle or interrupt career or goals.

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And so they didn't feel suited to mothering.

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And then it ends up being a huge trauma for them.

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So I think that's a disservice we're doing as well with either glamorizing it as everything's

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beautiful and everything's easy and light and fun.

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Or as we talk about it with each other, only the hard parts of it rather than the beautiful

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parts of it.

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And I don't know about anybody else, but my experience with my children, there are definitely

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hard days.

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Today I must have spilled three things on myself just in a couple hours, moving them around

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and carrying my drink with me.

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But overall, it's magical seeing the world through a child's eyes again, because it's

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like when you were a kid, you can see the same kind of magic of like everything was

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simple.

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Everything was innocent.

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Everything was curiosity and not fear based.

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Like so many times adults are anxiety or fear based.

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And there wasn't that.

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It was just like this big wild world of I want to know all the things and tell me all

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the things and why is this happening and why is the sky blue and why is the grass green.

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Why do we name things blue and green and why are colors, you know, like all of the deep

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existential conversations we have right at bedtime so they don't have to go to bed.

265
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So I'm sure most parents can relate to that too.

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But yeah, it's really magical.

267
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And I'm at the point now where I have like my kids are six to 15.

268
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And COVID was horrible overall.

269
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The reaction to COVID was horrible, but we really bonded as a family.

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And that's when we started homeschooling.

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And now we enjoy each other's company so much that every morning we start out together and

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every evening we're kind of all hanging out in my room.

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My husband's there too.

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And we're talking about whatever latest homeschool thing we're doing or whatever science thing

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everybody's interested in or whatever social studies thing was.

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And like then we all kind of go to bed, but it's just a really beautiful unity amongst

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us now.

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And you can't replace that elsewhere.

279
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Absolutely.

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That's something that on both ends of the spectrum there that I have been humbled being a father.

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I remember when my daughter was, she wasn't born yet.

282
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We just got into the hospital.

283
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My wife was induced and we had to watch all these like hospital videos.

284
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And one of them, it was called like purple baby, something like that.

285
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And essentially it was a don't shake your baby type of video.

286
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And it was, I think it was purple scream maybe.

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Anyways, it was essentially saying that a baby is so upset that they turned purple and

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you're upset.

289
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So then you're likely to shake the baby.

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And I remember watching it.

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It was like, of course I've heard of shaking baby syndrome and it's like, I wasn't naive

292
00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,160
to the fact that being a parent could be hard.

293
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I was like, of course I'm not going to shake my baby.

294
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I don't need to watch this.

295
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:07,080
And I was humbled in the fact not that I shook my baby later, but my daughter was, she was

296
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an awful sleeper, just really, really bad when she was little.

297
00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:17,360
And I remember there, there was a time and I don't kind of bring my, my faith in here

298
00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:24,040
too that I even prayed about it of like God, like thank you for one, given that video to

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00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:29,360
me and for, for humbling me and this fact, I didn't ever have a desire to shake my baby,

300
00:19:29,360 --> 00:19:37,120
but I understood it in those moments when you sleep like an hour and this baby screaming,

301
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you try every technique to get her to go to sleep.

302
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:40,720
It's like, I get it.

303
00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:43,000
Now that's still wrong.

304
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:44,000
Absolutely.

305
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,440
You shouldn't shake your baby, but that did give us some skills that was like, Hey, put

306
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:49,720
the baby in the crib, go walk away.

307
00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,840
They're not going to die in the next five minutes if you just walk away.

308
00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:58,440
And that was on that, that, you know, more realistic negative view that I understood.

309
00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:04,200
Yeah, there's really hard moments, but like you're saying on the great moments.

310
00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:10,560
Now my daughter is, she's almost four and she runs up and hugs me says, I love you,

311
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buddy.

312
00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:13,480
You can't, you can't replicate that.

313
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,160
I don't care how much money you throw at me.

314
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:22,920
I wouldn't take any of that over being told I love you from, from my kids.

315
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:29,080
And like you're saying that balance there, you need to have both of those that it can

316
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:33,040
be tough, but man, can it be wonderful?

317
00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:37,920
And yeah, I think overall our culture doesn't do a great job on, on either of those.

318
00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:45,040
When we think about it, it's relationship and marriage has really beautiful parts and

319
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:46,960
really, really tough parts.

320
00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:51,760
Best friendships, really, really tough parts and really, really beautiful parts.

321
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,680
And I don't know why we look at children as if they're supposed to somehow be better behaved

322
00:20:55,680 --> 00:21:00,240
than adults, but we do look at them as like, you're supposed to always behave and do what

323
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:06,840
I say and obey me and never be an issue when we allow other adults to inconvenience us.

324
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:11,800
So that whole kind of philosophy really shifted my parenting about 10 years ago.

325
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:15,600
And I realized like, why am I expecting my kids to behave better than I expect the adults

326
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:16,600
in my life?

327
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,160
I expect the adults in my life to have bad days or bad attitudes every once in a while

328
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,880
or whatever meltdowns adults have.

329
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,560
And I am looking at my kids going, you're not allowed to inconvenience me.

330
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:28,280
No, I want you to inconvenience me.

331
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,240
That's what relationship is, is inconvenience.

332
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,280
It's inconvenience for intimacy.

333
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:37,200
And I would much rather have that than go through life never being inconvenienced, but

334
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,560
never having a true relationship.

335
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:43,560
And something you had said earlier, I just made a connection.

336
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:47,120
So this is, I have no scientific backing for this, no research.

337
00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:48,120
It may be out there.

338
00:21:48,120 --> 00:21:49,400
I haven't even looked at it.

339
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:55,000
But I was thinking when you were talking about having your first child and how like the anxieties

340
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,200
you have about what could go wrong.

341
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:01,880
And we tend to like helicopter parent the first kid and the second kid were a little

342
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:05,520
more relaxed and laid back and by the fourth kid were like, Oh, sorry, no baby book.

343
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,920
This didn't happen.

344
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,760
But I'm thinking about like birth order and the types of personalities we see in birth

345
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:12,760
order.

346
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:20,040
And it seems to me that those must be connected as far as my first child is not very, I mean,

347
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,560
she has some anxiety, but she's very, I want to know the boundaries.

348
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:24,560
I want to know the balance.

349
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,440
I want to know what's safe.

350
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,960
And my second child is wild.

351
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:30,960
Free spirit.

352
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:35,840
He's just like, hold on knees before God praying, just holding on with that kid.

353
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:37,120
And he's fantastic.

354
00:22:37,120 --> 00:22:39,600
But wow, he has a lot.

355
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,280
He's going to be a leader.

356
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:46,720
And then my third child is his own little person and plays well independently and just

357
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,920
loves to cuddle when on his terms, but he's just happy little guy.

358
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,240
And then my youngest is a drama queen and they're all very different.

359
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:56,480
But when I think about where we were at in those pregnancies or in the parenting event,

360
00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:02,720
like our youngest being the drama queen, she was so prayed for and so one and not that

361
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,240
all of them weren't, but it was a dip.

362
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,880
We were going into, we were doing a V back at home after two C sections in the hospital.

363
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,040
So it was entirely different birth experience.

364
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,000
I had a lot of birth trauma to work through.

365
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:15,920
I had two losses.

366
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,480
I was dealing with at that time emotionally and mentally.

367
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:21,600
And so, and I really wanted another girl.

368
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,320
I had a girl boy boy and I really wanted another girl.

369
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:26,160
And we didn't know we waited till she was born.

370
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:31,440
And after she was born, that child was doted on by all the other five members of our family.

371
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,720
So until she was about five, pretty much had to do nothing for herself.

372
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:36,080
So that's how she became drama queen.

373
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:37,920
It's all on us, all our fault.

374
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,160
And I take full responsibility for that.

375
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:44,800
But I'm wondering if we did a better job of, like we do premarital counseling.

376
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,560
Why aren't we doing pre-birth counseling with the whole family?

377
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:49,760
And how do you want to transition?

378
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:50,760
And how do you want to work this out?

379
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,360
And how do the kids need to still have time with you and you still have time with each

380
00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:55,360
other?

381
00:23:55,360 --> 00:23:58,480
And how do you get that out of normal part of mental health?

382
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,120
It's a great question.

383
00:24:01,120 --> 00:24:02,400
It really is.

384
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:07,600
And that's something, as you're kind of walking through that, I'm just thinking in my own

385
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:16,560
little family period here that when my son was born, my daughter was almost two.

386
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:21,760
So we tried to explain some stuff to her, but she just didn't really understand.

387
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:23,800
She wasn't two yet.

388
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:29,160
So this go around, now my son, he just turned two.

389
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:30,160
So same type of thing.

390
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:31,680
We've explained a little bit.

391
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,880
He knows what babies are, but he's just going to have to learn.

392
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:37,360
This is going to be confusing.

393
00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:38,360
But my daughter, we're gonna-

394
00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:39,880
I have a hat for you though.

395
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,080
Oh, go, yeah, go, go for that.

396
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:49,280
So what we did with each child that was born previously, when the next one was coming,

397
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:53,240
we got a little kid's tool belt, like a little two-year-old tool belt and embroidered their

398
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,440
name on it and stuffed it with diapers and wipes and passies.

399
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,080
And they were mommy's helper.

400
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:03,520
And then they felt super included and super needed and seen and loved.

401
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:04,720
And they knew how to interact.

402
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:05,720
They knew what to do.

403
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:07,400
There wasn't fear around, like, what do I need to do?

404
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:08,400
Like, mom's changing the bit.

405
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:09,800
I just need to handle a diaper.

406
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:15,800
So it was just a- and then we also had baby give the other kids a gift, something very

407
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:16,800
small.

408
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,120
You don't have to spend a dollar tree.

409
00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:20,800
Most kids are fine with that.

410
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:25,000
And we gave something to- we had each of the kids pick out something for the baby.

411
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:29,280
And that way they felt already connected in some way.

412
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,400
And so that was just a really nice transition for our real little ones when the next little

413
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:38,640
one was coming around, that they already had a place and a role with that child and in

414
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,720
relationship with that child.

415
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,040
I really like that.

416
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,520
We- we did with my daughter and we're doing this with that.

417
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:52,720
So we're having another son with this new son that's about to be born.

418
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:58,720
We- yeah, we have little gifts, like little stuffed animals or whatever to try to make

419
00:25:58,720 --> 00:25:59,840
them feel a part of that.

420
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:05,280
But I love that little- that little tool belt there of really prepping them and having

421
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,160
them be a part of that.

422
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,840
Because I can see that with my- with my two-year-old.

423
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:16,360
He's just a sweet, hugging little- little dude.

424
00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:21,120
And he's used to being the baby and he's not.

425
00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:26,240
He's not going to get that same type of alone time with the both of us and everything.

426
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:32,100
So I definitely think him being involved in that process, that is a wonderful idea.

427
00:26:32,100 --> 00:26:37,280
Because my three-year-old, almost four-year-old, she's all- she's all into it.

428
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:41,160
She loves- she looks at the ultrasound pictures.

429
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:46,160
She's like, let's get this baby and she's mother hen already.

430
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,340
But two-year-old just doesn't quite understand that.

431
00:26:48,340 --> 00:26:52,400
So I think that that's- that's a great idea to get him involved that way.

432
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:59,160
Yeah, one other thing we do- and this is kind of giving your listeners an example of what

433
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:00,160
therapy looks like.

434
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:04,360
When I work with my clients pre-birth, we talk birth plans, multiple different birth

435
00:27:04,360 --> 00:27:05,360
plans.

436
00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:07,800
We do the ideal, which isn't going to happen, but along those lines.

437
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,280
And then we do the- we need to compromise.

438
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:11,560
Some things aren't going to go your way.

439
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,080
And then we do the emergency worst case scenario birth plans.

440
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:18,760
But then we do postpartum planning as well, the fourth trimester, three months after.

441
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:25,160
And one of the things we talk about is having stations around the house for mom and baby,

442
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:30,360
like snacks for mom, all the pumping stuff for mom, and a couple different stations throughout

443
00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:31,360
the house.

444
00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:35,840
And then also getting like a rolling cart for the kids to have activities at each place

445
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:40,120
so mom doesn't have to get up every five seconds to get something for the other kiddos.

446
00:27:40,120 --> 00:27:44,560
Like got stations and of things they like to do, crafts or books or stuffed animals

447
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:45,960
or whatever.

448
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:47,600
And then we do the same with snacks.

449
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,760
We have a snack cabinet that the kids are allowed to go into anytime they want.

450
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:52,760
It's pretty healthy.

451
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,080
And then we have a pullout drawer in our refrigerator.

452
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:56,480
They don't have to ask and go get.

453
00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:01,240
And that all made my last postpartum much easier than my other ones because we had pre-planned

454
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:05,080
for what is this going to look like when I'm home and my hubby's at work.

455
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:06,480
And I've got four kids.

456
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:08,480
So yeah.

457
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:15,640
I think really what we're getting at here is just that prep work.

458
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:17,640
And it makes sense.

459
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,320
We do it in everything else in our life.

460
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:29,720
When we paint, I painted the bathroom not too long ago, you get all the tape out and

461
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,800
make sure that all your materials are all set up, good to go.

462
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:38,040
That prep work makes the actual painting way, way easier if you do that correctly.

463
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,400
So, we instinctually do these things all the time.

464
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:42,400
But you're right.

465
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,200
It tends to be in birth.

466
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:45,200
Okay.

467
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,320
Go figure it out.

468
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,400
And that's a new human being.

469
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,200
We should do a little bit more prep work.

470
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:52,200
Yeah.

471
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,640
We'll have meal trains and registries, which are fantastic and lovely.

472
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:56,880
And don't stop doing those.

473
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,360
In fact, do them for months after you think the family needs them.

474
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:05,160
But it's not just the things.

475
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:10,680
It's the relationship that we need to prep for and how in the house are we going to maintain

476
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:11,680
relationship?

477
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:16,520
And something new we started this year with our kids was since I'm now working full time

478
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:21,080
and my husband working full time and we're homeschooling, we're like people going everywhere

479
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:22,160
all the time.

480
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,800
We each take four hours once a month, which each child alone.

481
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:30,160
So one week, one weekend day, every Saturday or Sunday, I'll take one kid for four hours

482
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:31,640
and then he'll take one kid for four hours.

483
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:36,720
And so each kid gets dedicated four hours a month, which seems ridiculously small when

484
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,720
I think about how many hours in a month.

485
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,120
But the reality is that's where we're at.

486
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:42,120
That's where we've got right now.

487
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:43,800
Hopefully we'll extend it more.

488
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:49,960
But they are so much more at peace about I'm going to get mom's ear or dad's ear dedicated

489
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:51,560
to me.

490
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:55,360
And I know it's coming on that day and I can't wait till that day or I can tell her ahead

491
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:56,360
of time this.

492
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:57,520
I need to talk about these things.

493
00:29:57,520 --> 00:29:59,880
They can talk to us any day, but that's a guaranteed.

494
00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:04,040
I'm taking you out of the house with me without the other kids and you've got me all to yourself.

495
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:09,240
And that has really helped as well, maintain those relationships and help them feel like

496
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,240
they aren't lost in the mix.

497
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:12,240
Yeah.

498
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:13,240
Yeah.

499
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:19,000
Because naturally, if you don't go out of your way, especially in a situation like our

500
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:24,960
family, we're about to have this baby and that baby is going to cry, need to be changed.

501
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:32,000
It's precedent over the here and now takes precedent over when my two year old's hungry

502
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:33,440
or when he's thirsty.

503
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:39,160
And that's obviously going to cause problems if we don't come up with ways to be able to

504
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:44,080
tend to everybody's needs and acclimate that, yeah, now there's this crying little baby

505
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:45,840
in here, but that's your brother.

506
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:47,400
And we love this brother.

507
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:51,240
You just triggered something else I wanted to talk about again for me when you were talking

508
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:52,920
about the crying baby.

509
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:58,920
There's a big difference between men and women and it's what research suggests.

510
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,360
So and I'm not and research in this area, but this is what I've read repeatedly in research

511
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:09,720
is in the pituitary gland, women have a kind of alert signal that men don't have to their

512
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:15,520
own babies cry, not to necessarily any babies cry, but their own that it's like a pain response.

513
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,080
It sends out the hormones that cause a pain response.

514
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:23,960
And I'm pretty sure God created that way for the survival of the species because, you know,

515
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:25,840
middle of the night, I'm exhausted.

516
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:30,160
But man, I hear my baby cry and I'm hurting and I'm going to get up and go.

517
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:36,440
But it's just one interesting way of like when we're prepping for having a child, no

518
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:46,480
matter how, no matter where anybody's at politically or philosophically, whether they're liberal

519
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:52,200
feminist or conservative or libertarian or whatever they might be, you can't get around

520
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,240
biology.

521
00:31:54,240 --> 00:32:01,000
And so like mother's biology is tuned to the first three months being the survival of the

522
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:02,000
child.

523
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:08,040
And that's one thing our society also isn't doing well is how do we support the three

524
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:14,000
months after and I'm not a fan of like government forcing business to do anything.

525
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,920
I have a small business and I understand lots of small businesses can't afford to give somebody

526
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,040
three months paid leave.

527
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:24,120
I have lots of out of the box ideas of how we can make that happen without hurting anyone.

528
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:30,520
But we just don't do that really well of recognizing the mom's biology is built for the survival

529
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:31,520
of the child.

530
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:38,280
And also that child has only ever known the mom as an environment.

531
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:43,360
And so mom's heartbeat, mom's smell, mom's sound.

532
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,080
That's the child's norm.

533
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:46,520
Dad's voice too.

534
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,200
But mom's body is baby's environment.

535
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:56,480
So and when you think about things like adoption or when kids get removed by the Department

536
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:02,400
of Children Services as newborns, there's this can be this trauma or this primal wound that

537
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,000
comes from that.

538
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:08,920
And so we just don't really do a good job as a society looking at women's biology and

539
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:10,840
what all it's designed for.

540
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:16,280
We look at how sex happens and we look at how pregnancy, you know, like how baby develops

541
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:17,880
in utero and we look at birth.

542
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:24,560
But we don't really talk about then after what women's biology is made for.

543
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:34,680
Aneudotally and my with my children, 1000% that is the case of I could be sleeping and

544
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,360
at times it will annoy my wife afterwards.

545
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,520
And granted, I tell her like, if you need me, just wake me up.

546
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,960
But baby stirs a little bit and she's bam, she's there.

547
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:49,520
And I hear nothing, nothing at all.

548
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:55,440
And I just go on about my day and maybe the baby's crying a little bit and like, eh, probably

549
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:56,440
probably hungry.

550
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:57,440
No big deal.

551
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:58,520
But my wife, yeah, she is.

552
00:33:58,520 --> 00:33:59,880
She's right there.

553
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:04,960
And like you said, that that's that biology and what a you mentioned this, what a wonderful

554
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:12,040
thing that women's bodies are designed that way that that keeps that keeps our baby safe.

555
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,600
Um, that that's fantastic.

556
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:23,800
And yeah, as a society, um, that is, we've got the lines blurred so much and this goes

557
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:29,080
into some more of the transgender type of talk to you that men and women are basically

558
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:30,720
just the same thing.

559
00:34:30,720 --> 00:34:33,880
So biology doesn't really matter.

560
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,680
It's just kind of what you identify as or whatever.

561
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,920
So those signals, eh, yeah, they're not that important.

562
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:41,760
That's that's just not true.

563
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,040
That is absolutely a big deal.

564
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:49,440
And I'll tell you, my body can't do half the things that my wife's body can do.

565
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:50,440
And that is awesome.

566
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:54,280
Like we should be celebrating that fact, not not downgrading it.

567
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:59,880
Well, yeah, I, my husband and I have a really wonderful appreciation for the differences

568
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:00,880
in our bodies.

569
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,040
And it's not just like meat sacks where you can just swap parts.

570
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,040
It doesn't really work like that.

571
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:12,680
Um, even if we can do surgeries to try to appear as the other gender, the internal biology

572
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:13,680
isn't going to work.

573
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,480
And this is whenever I hear these stories about like, Oh, we're going to end up, we

574
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,320
have had successful uterine transplants from woman to woman.

575
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,120
And we've had a couple babies born that way.

576
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:30,120
But there's no way it would work from a woman to a male body because it's not just the uterus.

577
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:35,000
All the other connections between how the immune system is this delicate, beautiful

578
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:39,120
dance during pregnancy that you cannot duplicate just by putting a uterus in your body.

579
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:43,840
And then the pituitary gland and all the hormone releases is this cascade throughout pregnancy

580
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:44,840
and throughout birth.

581
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,040
And like, you can't duplicate that just by putting a uterus in your body.

582
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:54,720
So it, it really, we appreciate each other's natural biological gifts in such a beautiful

583
00:35:54,720 --> 00:35:56,760
way that we don't have resentment around that.

584
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,240
So like he's naturally taller.

585
00:35:59,240 --> 00:36:03,120
I'm pretty short anyway, but he's taller and naturally stronger and naturally can eat a

586
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,440
hundred, a thousand more calories than me a day and not in gameway, which is really irritating.

587
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:07,440
I won't lie.

588
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:08,440
That one's irritating.

589
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:09,800
But that's his natural.

590
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:13,600
And I love him for all the things he can do that I can't do.

591
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:18,760
And then he looks at our kids and was like, I could never have cooked these little ones

592
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,800
and then nurse them for three or four years each.

593
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,000
And he's not relational like I am.

594
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,480
And it is a stereotype, but it's also true biologically in our brains.

595
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:34,640
Women are more relational and nurturing and men and more hunter gather adventurer.

596
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,440
And so he's like, he's all about the adventure part of dad.

597
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:39,640
Like he's got that down.

598
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:46,080
He is like Disney dad with all of the adventure and fun things that he does with the kids.

599
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:51,160
But when they're crying, it's mom that they go to first, not that they never go to him.

600
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:55,000
My youngest today wanted to sit next to daddy, not mommy, which is totally fine.

601
00:36:55,000 --> 00:37:00,720
But yeah, it's just a natural built in part of our biology and it's beautiful, like you

602
00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:01,720
said.

603
00:37:01,720 --> 00:37:02,720
Yeah.

604
00:37:02,720 --> 00:37:08,200
Well, and that kind of leads me into this other discussion, discussion point that really

605
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:13,800
what drew me to you on Twitter in the first place, I don't remember what I first saw from

606
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:19,520
you, but say constant thing and you have all sorts of people that say some pretty nasty

607
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,160
things to you on Twitter.

608
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:29,840
But one of the things that you talk often about is that women's biology is not, it's

609
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:30,920
not bad.

610
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:35,320
Like women's body being able to have a baby.

611
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,440
That is not a bad thing.

612
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:38,520
That's a beautiful thing.

613
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,000
That's the way that we're created.

614
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:46,640
So speak a little bit more into that of that biology, particularly as it relates into the

615
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:54,160
abortion debate and everything of why a woman's body being functioned that way.

616
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,520
Why is that so important in that discussion?

617
00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:01,160
Man, we would need like 20 hours for me to go all the way through that, but I will give

618
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:05,040
my best like two, three minutes snippet of that.

619
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:06,040
Yeah.

620
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:10,680
I do get lots of nasty feedback because I talk about really hot button issues and I

621
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:16,160
don't, I don't love confrontation in that like, ooh, I can't wait to fight.

622
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:17,960
But I don't dislike confrontation.

623
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:22,800
So I don't get like worked up by, and I tend to ignore the people that aren't there for

624
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:24,920
genuine conversation anyway.

625
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:31,600
But so I had an abortion in my 20s and it took 19 years for me to even acknowledge that's

626
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:32,600
what had happened.

627
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:37,920
I had done all kinds of denial and cognitive dissonance and all kinds of things to cover

628
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:38,920
that up.

629
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:43,640
And my story is a little bit different in that I didn't go in choosing an abortion.

630
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:48,760
I went in for another reason and was sold an abortion with a lot of cohesion and deceptive

631
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:53,640
wording so that I didn't even really kind of know what was about to happen to me.

632
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,200
There was definitely no informed consent given.

633
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:57,200
And that's not uncommon.

634
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:01,800
Unfortunately, that there isn't informed consent, but that's a whole nother conversation.

635
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:07,720
But when I first started actually dealing with what had happened to me, I first started

636
00:39:07,720 --> 00:39:13,480
noticing after the day after my oldest living daughter was born.

637
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:18,680
I was weeping out of fear that I wasn't safe for her.

638
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,720
And I couldn't quite figure out why I didn't feel safe with her.

639
00:39:21,720 --> 00:39:24,200
Like I would have killed dragons for her.

640
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:26,600
I couldn't figure out why I didn't.

641
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:33,800
And then it took a while to figure out, oh, instinctively, my very genetics and biology

642
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:43,680
has had a trauma of being forced to end a very natural biological process in an unnatural

643
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:44,840
way.

644
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:48,400
And now my body doesn't feel safe to me.

645
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:53,960
And then after we had our miscarriage, same, I felt like, man, my body is just...

646
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:58,440
And some women can't ever successfully carry pregnancy after abortion because their body

647
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,240
is damaged in such a way that they can't.

648
00:40:01,240 --> 00:40:03,840
And so when I think...

649
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:04,840
I don't...

650
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:09,200
Without looking at anything religion, without even necessarily looking at...

651
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,240
I guess I do lean quite a bit on science regarding biology.

652
00:40:12,240 --> 00:40:16,240
But when I think of philosophically, and I have a philosophy degree, but when I think

653
00:40:16,240 --> 00:40:23,560
about it philosophically, when we offer abortion as the answer to a crisis situation, what

654
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:29,360
we're saying is your body is the problem and your offspring is the problem.

655
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:34,840
So we need to deconstruct your biology, and we need to take away your offspring, and then

656
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:36,680
your life will be better.

657
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:43,080
But the reality, number one, that's extremely misogynistic and pretty agist against children

658
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:46,520
as well and discriminatory all around.

659
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:51,880
But two, it doesn't actually solve most of the reasons women are in crisis.

660
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:57,960
So dismantling her biology isn't going to make an abusive partner stop abusing her.

661
00:40:57,960 --> 00:40:59,440
It's still going to do that.

662
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,760
You haven't changed him at all.

663
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:07,240
Getting rid of the child isn't going to suddenly bring a windfall of cash.

664
00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:09,520
Poverty is still going to be poverty.

665
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:10,600
So it doesn't...

666
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,640
We're not solving any of the actual issues that abortion has been touted as the answer

667
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:15,640
for.

668
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:20,840
Instead, we just continually blame women's biology and our offspring for these crises.

669
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:29,680
And what I see happening is now when we try to get any kind of protections for postpartum,

670
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:34,200
like maternity or paternity, and I'm again, I'm not saying government driven.

671
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:41,440
I'm saying society and community driven, where like let's give leave or let's do PTO swaps

672
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,560
or donating time from coworkers or whatever.

673
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:49,960
Let's figure this out where we can do floating shifts and stuff like that to make it possible.

674
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:54,560
We're so quick to be like, yeah, but you could just like, if you can't afford it, maybe just

675
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,000
have an abortion.

676
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,720
And again, your body's the problem, not society.

677
00:42:00,720 --> 00:42:01,800
Society, we need workers.

678
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:07,280
We need producers, not a producers of children, producers of goods and services.

679
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,280
And so, yeah, you just need to get rid of that part of your biology because that's a

680
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:11,800
problem.

681
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:19,880
And it's interesting and I'm not a super feminist, but we don't do that to male biology.

682
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:23,880
We don't say, you know what, your sperm is the problem.

683
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:29,000
Now men do get vasectomies and all, if you have sperm content, you want to do that, all

684
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:37,720
for that, you do you, but we don't give that as like a, well, really, it's your sperm

685
00:42:37,720 --> 00:42:38,920
that's the issue.

686
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:43,280
And so we need to get a do away with that.

687
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:48,560
And so when I think about, we're just now in our society starting to include like breast

688
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:58,640
feeding rooms in public places and changing tables in all the restrooms, not just women's

689
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:03,880
restrooms, but for dads too, we're just starting to creep into like acknowledgement that women's

690
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:09,400
biology and children exist outside of commercialism.

691
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,160
Yeah.

692
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:25,000
That is such an important discussion that our bodies, and I'll take this into the faith

693
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:33,160
side, that I believe our bodies are designed by God for a specific reason, by a specific

694
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:44,240
creator, it's just mockery to his design of kind of how we treat each other's bodies.

695
00:43:44,240 --> 00:43:54,440
And that's again, as part of what really drew me to a lot of your posts is just that openness,

696
00:43:54,440 --> 00:44:01,680
goodness, like to just flat out say, yeah, I've had an abortion on Twitter.

697
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:08,840
This is asking for all sorts of feedback from different people.

698
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:12,720
And I love that you know yourself and you know, hey, I'm able to take this and the people

699
00:44:12,720 --> 00:44:20,040
that yeah, I'm a big fan of a heavy block button or meat button if people are just being hateful,

700
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,600
like who cares, just go ahead and do that.

701
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:26,440
But the people that are legitimately want to have a conversation, who knows, who knows

702
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:32,920
the type of impact that you could have there, and really driving that discussion back into

703
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:37,560
our bodies are not the problem, the way that they're designed.

704
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:39,280
That is not the issue.

705
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:43,120
They are designed well.

706
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:47,760
And I'll go to again on especially that topic on women's biology.

707
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:54,920
Yeah, there's some stuff with men, but even even when we get into transgender stuff kind

708
00:44:54,920 --> 00:45:02,920
of back into that discussion, my spaces by and large aren't impacted that much.

709
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:10,000
There are some cases here and there, but women's spaces are absolutely impacted massively.

710
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:18,040
And it's such a shame that this is being covered in more of a feminist type of lingo and more

711
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:21,880
of a left leaning type of lingo that this is progress.

712
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:23,880
No, no, it's not.

713
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:29,240
No, it's that whole topic.

714
00:45:29,240 --> 00:45:34,680
So I have so much love in my heart for people who truly have gender dysphoria.

715
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:39,280
It is painful, painful.

716
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:48,200
And what they need though is not the politicization of it and not the, you know what, we can cure

717
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:50,880
a mental health issue with surgery.

718
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:52,880
No, we can't.

719
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,280
We've never been able to cure mental health issues with surgery.

720
00:45:55,280 --> 00:46:00,000
Every time we've tried in the history of psychology, it's gone drastically wrong.

721
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,400
So we have to treat it with relationship.

722
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,360
That's the only way we treat mental health issues.

723
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:12,600
And so I feel for people who are transgender and that this is harming them.

724
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:18,360
And then I feel for women who like myself, I've been, like I said, I have sexual assault

725
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:24,920
history where if no offense to any man at all, but if I'm in a bathroom or a locker

726
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:30,880
room or anywhere where I'm expecting to be able to be vulnerable physically and a man

727
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:35,720
shows up, I'm instantly on high alert.

728
00:46:35,720 --> 00:46:38,800
And that's uncomfortable for both of us.

729
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:43,080
And so what's really shocking to me about that whole movement, I guess it's not shocking

730
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:44,080
anymore.

731
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:48,320
What was shocking to me in the beginning was when we were saying, like, okay, let's have

732
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:51,000
individual spaces for those who are transgender.

733
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:52,640
Let's just have a bathroom for them to use.

734
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:55,920
And no, no, no, we want yours.

735
00:46:55,920 --> 00:47:00,480
That's where it felt like, okay, this really isn't about what those who have gender dysphoria

736
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,760
need to feel accepted and supported by culture.

737
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:12,280
This is about wanting to remove and break down the differences between male and female.

738
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,800
And like transhumanism is what it's really ultimately about.

739
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:21,320
And honestly, when I look back at the history of abortion, it's about transhumanism as well.

740
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:23,320
And so it's all interconnected.

741
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:27,440
I've done a lot of Twitter posts about like, can you see the connections between all of

742
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:33,000
these things and all these things in human trafficking and all of these things and birth

743
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:34,000
control?

744
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:38,280
And I'm not opposed to birth control as far as it being available with informed consent.

745
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:39,800
I'm fine with that.

746
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:45,520
But I do think inherently birth control says your body's problem, your biology's problem,

747
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:47,160
you need to stop your healthy biology.

748
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:57,680
So even that has subtle psychological repercussions of being so flippantly, like the FDA just

749
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:01,640
approved the first over-the-counter birth control this week.

750
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:06,040
And I'm like, and now, so it's just very flippant, like, yep, your biology's problem.

751
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:09,600
That's what we need to stop is your healthy biology.

752
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:15,240
And yeah, it's all interconnected and all of it with the idea that we can escape our

753
00:48:15,240 --> 00:48:19,000
biology, we can transcend our biology.

754
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:22,400
And I'm like, well, we don't even fully understand our biology.

755
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:26,600
So I'm not sure how you think that's going to be successful, number one.

756
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:30,640
But number two, we're going to hurt a whole lot of people along the way attempting to

757
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:32,200
do this.

758
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:39,160
And I started talking about abortion on Twitter, not even from a pro-life or pro-choice perspective,

759
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:46,280
but just because I know, because I work in this line of work, that I'm not the only one

760
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:48,520
that had trauma related to abortion.

761
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:52,360
And so it was for the other women who were like, I've never, ever seen another woman

762
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:56,760
openly say in public, I had an abortion and it was terrible.

763
00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:58,160
And I'm deeply wounded.

764
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:03,940
And I had to face the trauma of losing my child, but also the trauma of I did that.

765
00:49:03,940 --> 00:49:09,140
And so that's why I originally started talking about it.

766
00:49:09,140 --> 00:49:11,520
It wasn't even to try to convince people one way or another.

767
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:12,720
It was to give this woman support.

768
00:49:12,720 --> 00:49:14,240
And you said, like, who knows what could happen?

769
00:49:14,240 --> 00:49:15,600
I tell you what has happened.

770
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:18,120
And I didn't do it for this reason, but it's been so beautiful.

771
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:26,280
I've had lots of women in my private messages, my DMs, either asking for resources for help

772
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:32,200
or I'm considering an abortion and I want to talk to you and ultimately choosing not

773
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:33,440
to have one.

774
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:35,440
And I get to walk with them through that.

775
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:39,080
And even if they chose one, I would walk with them through that too.

776
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:43,200
My care for them isn't based on their choice.

777
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:44,680
It's based on them as a human being.

778
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:46,160
And I want them to see themselves that way.

779
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:48,840
And I want them to see their child that way ultimately.

780
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:53,960
And so I'm with them either way, but I've watched women choose not to have abortions

781
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:57,680
and watch them just seconds after their child's born.

782
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:00,800
They're messaging me, oh my gosh, I can't believe I even thought of it.

783
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:02,760
And then we're dealing with that trauma of I thought of it.

784
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:07,640
But just the joy that instant and not everybody has that instant response.

785
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:12,280
And that's a whole nother level of birth trauma we could talk about at some point of people

786
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,000
that don't feel instantly bonded because that is a thing that happens.

787
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:16,880
But so far they have.

788
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:21,880
And so it's really been almost like a ministry field for me that I didn't think Twitter would

789
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:26,520
ever be a ministry field for me, but it really is.

790
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:30,160
And so I just try to be faithful when God says, I need you to show up here and I need

791
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:33,520
you to be vulnerable and I need you to say all the things that you either are scared

792
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:35,760
to say or don't want to say or people don't want to hear.

793
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:39,680
I need you to say those things and trust me that I'm going to bring the people to you

794
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:40,960
that need you.

795
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:44,520
And I'm going to give you that mute button for the people that you don't need to hear

796
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:47,200
who still need to hear your message, which is why I don't tend to block.

797
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:50,520
I tend to just mute because then they still have to see me, but I don't have to hear them.

798
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:53,400
And so you can get my message all day long.

799
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:54,920
That's fine.

800
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:57,360
So and I just try to be faithful to that.

801
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:05,200
And it's born some really beautiful offline relationships, both with wounded women, wounded

802
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:12,120
men from abortion, but also very liberal women who are really wrestling with this, losing

803
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:13,760
their spaces.

804
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:17,400
And as we start talking about that, they're starting to see the connection with that and

805
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:21,320
abortion and not maybe that they're deciding I'm not going to be pro-choice anymore, but

806
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:27,840
I really need to rethink the fact that they're selling that as a liberation for me.

807
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:31,800
Why are they telling me my body needs, I need to be liberated from my body.

808
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:35,600
That doesn't seem very pro-woman to me.

809
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:39,240
And so I've just had such beautiful connections with people and they may never, my goal isn't

810
00:51:39,240 --> 00:51:40,640
to make somebody pro-life.

811
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:45,880
It's just to have the real honest conversations and the genuine love from human to human that

812
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:51,440
wherever you land, we're worth the conversation and we're worth the respect while we have

813
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:52,440
it.

814
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:54,920
So it's just been beautiful overall.

815
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:55,920
Absolutely.

816
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:59,840
And you mentioned the keyword there is vulnerable.

817
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:07,880
And I know not everyone listening to this is going to go and treat or tweet different

818
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:11,480
things about abortion or reproduction or whatever it may be.

819
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:12,480
That's fine.

820
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:18,760
But if kind of the whole purpose of this podcast is for me to talk with people and to challenge

821
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:25,720
the listeners to do something, to be active and not just be angry, be apathetic.

822
00:52:25,720 --> 00:52:30,200
And at some level, if you're going to engage, you have to be vulnerable.

823
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:32,200
It doesn't have to be online.

824
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:35,440
But to make an impact, you have to be vulnerable.

825
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:38,720
You have to accept some people aren't going to like this and that's okay.

826
00:52:38,720 --> 00:52:43,360
But there is another side of that, that there is this beautiful side.

827
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:47,200
None of those interactions would have happened had she not said anything.

828
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:48,200
Right.

829
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:53,560
And I don't think being vulnerable online is a good idea if you haven't worked through

830
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:54,660
your own trauma.

831
00:52:54,660 --> 00:52:58,240
If you have trauma, you're going to get severely wounded.

832
00:52:58,240 --> 00:53:00,720
People will say the most hurtful things.

833
00:53:00,720 --> 00:53:02,760
And it's not like I'm a robot.

834
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:07,560
When I do see those things, they do hurt, but I just am able to now quickly turn it

835
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,880
into a quick prayer for them and move on.

836
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:15,840
But if you're not worked through your trauma, that could really set you into a bad place.

837
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:16,960
So I wouldn't encourage that.

838
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:23,040
But what I do a lot of work with my patients is when I do, we conflict resolution, the

839
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:26,120
fastest way to end a fight is vulnerability.

840
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:32,160
And it can be something as simple as I'm really scared or I'm really uncomfortable having

841
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:34,040
this conversation.

842
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:37,120
And so I need to just slow down.

843
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:40,080
And I need us to bring the level down a bit.

844
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:42,840
And I want to hear you and I want to understand you.

845
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:43,840
So vulnerability understanding.

846
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:45,480
I really want to understand you.

847
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:46,680
Even if I disagree with you, that's okay.

848
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:49,080
I just want to understand you correctly.

849
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:50,080
Yeah.

850
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:51,080
Yeah.

851
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:52,360
That's a great point.

852
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:56,680
And sometimes that starting point is being vulnerable to help myself and just be able

853
00:53:56,680 --> 00:53:58,160
to get on that road.

854
00:53:58,160 --> 00:53:59,160
Yeah.

855
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:01,000
Our paths aren't all going to be the same.

856
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:02,000
They'll be different.

857
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:09,600
Well, Robin, I think that we could probably talk another three more hours about this conversation.

858
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:10,600
Really, really enjoyed it.

859
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:15,440
I think this is such an important piece and hopefully some of the listeners will kind

860
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:19,520
of understand that this is a big gap here and maybe get treatment for themselves or

861
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:23,320
kind of advocate for treatment elsewhere.

862
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:27,760
For people that are listening, how can they be in contact with you after the show?

863
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:29,400
That's a really good question.

864
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:37,000
So if you want to follow all my shenanigans on Twitter, my handle is at truth agape.

865
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:41,000
And then if you want to kind of see what my work is, I have a website.

866
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:44,440
Now when I was thinking of my business name, I love my business name, but it's not make

867
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:46,960
for a great website or email name.

868
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:54,520
So I can spell it if needed, but it's www.carisetveritasllc.com.

869
00:54:54,520 --> 00:55:05,680
How you spell that is C-H-A-R-I-S, which is Caris, at E-T, veritas, V-E-R-I-T-A-S-L-L-C.com.

870
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:11,200
It means grace and truth in Greek and Latin.

871
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:14,880
Those are the two things I endeavor to bring to every session is grace and truth.

872
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:16,040
So that's why I picked that name.

873
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:20,080
And I do love it, but it doesn't make for a great website or email.

874
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:21,800
And then if they want to email me, they can.

875
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:28,360
My email's on the website, or they can just R-A-K-Ns at carisetveritasllc.com, and they

876
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:30,160
can email me.

877
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:31,160
I will say this right now.

878
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:32,640
I can't treat anyone outside my state.

879
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:35,760
I am only licensed state of Indiana, so I can't treat anybody outside my state.

880
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:37,560
And I have a six month waiting list.

881
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:42,880
However, I am more than happy to help someone find someone in their area, or at least part

882
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:47,400
of what I've done on Twitter is here's what you should look for in a therapist and here's

883
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:51,720
some red flags to avoid because right now there's so much, and you know this, there's

884
00:55:51,720 --> 00:55:56,720
so much social justice in therapy now that it's not really about therapy as much as it's

885
00:55:56,720 --> 00:55:58,920
about politics for some people.

886
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:02,840
And so I just talk about here's some red flags to avoid to not end up in a session where

887
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:07,600
you have an activist instead of a therapist sitting across from you.

888
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:09,240
And I'll speak on behalf of Robin.

889
00:56:09,240 --> 00:56:14,240
I've done this on my, in my own private practice, which for those of you that don't know, my

890
00:56:14,240 --> 00:56:16,360
private practice is Truth and Grace counseling.

891
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:20,480
So we have a lot of similarities there in the name.

892
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:27,040
But I love, I love when somebody's from Pennsylvania or I had somebody in Canada areas that I'm

893
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:30,320
not licensed in to be able to point them in the right direction.

894
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:31,440
I love it.

895
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:37,560
So yes, don't, don't hesitate to reach out to her, especially when it comes to reproductive

896
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:39,200
issues like that.

897
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:41,240
She can help point you in the right direction.

898
00:56:41,240 --> 00:56:46,160
And gender related issues, because I'm part of a couple organizations, networks across

899
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:50,560
the world where I can quickly throw out a, to somebody treat in the state and get answers.

900
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:51,560
So.

901
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:52,560
Perfect.

902
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:53,560
Great.

903
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:56,360
Well, I'll include all of that down in the show notes.

904
00:56:56,360 --> 00:57:01,240
So you guys can be in contact with her and Robin, thanks again so much for coming on today.

905
00:57:01,240 --> 00:57:02,240
Thank you so much.

906
00:57:02,240 --> 00:57:03,840
I really enjoyed it.

907
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:04,960
Absolutely.

908
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:10,360
And thank you to everybody that tuned in today and we will catch you on the next episode.