1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,480 Hello. Welcome to Invertecast. I, of course, am Leah from Invertecast, but you also might 2 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:16,920 know me from Torrentia Leah. And today, I am going to be discussing the differences 3 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:24,960 between wild caught and captive bred species of invertebrates. So hopefully I can help 4 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:31,720 answer some questions for everybody and get the ball rolling. So firstly, I'll discuss 5 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:38,560 what it means for an invertebrate to be captive bred. Basically, that means that it is a specimen 6 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:46,320 of invertebrate like a tarantula or, you know, like assassin bugs or whatever that have already 7 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:55,560 been in captivity and then they have been bred to continue the captive bred or the species 8 00:00:55,560 --> 00:01:02,280 in the hobby, essentially. And a wild caught specimen is one that somebody had gone into 9 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:09,080 its natural habitats and collected it and then sold it into the hobby. So that is a wild 10 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:18,040 caught specimen. So some of the topics that range on this particular topic is, you know, 11 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:24,920 is it good for wild caught to be introduced and brought into the hobby or is it better 12 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:31,360 to leave them in the wild? So if anyone has any questions, feel free to toss them in the 13 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:37,960 comments. I will happily answer those questions and you might even get your comment highlighted. 14 00:01:37,960 --> 00:01:45,600 Ha ha. Anyhow, so first and foremost, when everybody, when you think of wild caught 15 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:51,520 specimens, most people think of, you know, conservation and that for me, that's the first 16 00:01:51,520 --> 00:02:00,640 thing that comes to my mind is wild caught specimens are not really, they're just, they're 17 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:08,960 not very conducive to conservation of that species, that particular species in the wild. 18 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:16,880 A really great example of this is in the tarantula world, the postal ethereal metallica, which 19 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:23,720 comes from India, it comes from actually a very small part of Sri Lanka. And because 20 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:34,960 of the over-collecting and over-catching them from the wild and stuff, there are now like 21 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:42,120 less than 100 specimen in the wild, which is really bad for that ecosystem and that 22 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:53,720 environment. So that also means that, you know, that specific species of tarantula now has 23 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:59,960 a far less chance of actually surviving in the wild and like continuing that bloodline. 24 00:02:59,960 --> 00:03:06,880 Now on the other hand, some wild caught specimen can be good in the hobby because it is able 25 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:14,120 to keep bloodlines kind of fresh and inbreeding shouldn't be as much of a problem so long 26 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:21,200 as there's, you know, sometimes wild caught specimen. We also have seen that when we get 27 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:29,840 imports of wild caught specimens, sometimes we also get, you know, species of tarantulas 28 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:36,240 and inverts that we weren't actually expecting in those imports. A really great example of 29 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:44,840 this is the cereopigus, I believe it's the cereopigus aureotibialis. This was a species 30 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:53,680 that was previously mostly unknown to the hobby and one they were sending in, you know, 31 00:03:53,680 --> 00:04:01,200 kilobrochis levidum or cereopigus levidum and other kilobrochis species and this, you 32 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:09,800 know, cereopigus aureotibialis appeared and it was very confusing but since then it has 33 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:16,520 become a very, very popular specimen species in the hobby. With that being said, there 34 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:22,880 are plenty of captive bred specimen obviously available now. You can get plenty of captive 35 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:32,360 bred specimens from all spectrums of the invertebrate world. However, wild caught specimens do help 36 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:44,680 to kind of keep the bloodlines diversified and not so inbred if you will. I am an advocate 37 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:51,880 for captive bred specimens. I definitely am not super thrilled about having wild caught 38 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:57,240 specimen in my collection. That's something that I definitely try to avoid at, you know, 39 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:02,480 pretty much all cost. If I do believe that there is a wild caught specimen that is available 40 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:10,080 and stuff I typically won't purchase that specimen, I won't actually purchase that. 41 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:15,800 So let me know what you guys think. Does anyone who is watching currently, do you have any 42 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:20,720 wild caught specimens in your collections? And if you do, have you noticed if there's 43 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:26,200 like a difference between them and your captive bred specimen? That's kind of leading into 44 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:34,080 our next topic here is that a wild caught specimen is not going to be quite as like 45 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:44,520 docile and used to humans as a captive bred specimen will be. Let me get this started. 46 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:49,880 I appreciate that Simon. He says, I would shoot anyone that brought in wild caught specimens 47 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:58,640 that are already established in captivity. I completely agree with this, mainly because 48 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:04,400 in the name of conservation, as I've said before, like the more people are entrenching 49 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:08,680 on those natural habitats of these specimens, the more people are going in there, the more 50 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:16,320 they're going and capturing these species and tarantulas or Madagascar hissing cockroaches, 51 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:25,040 for example, then the more that that habitat starts to disappear. So we're losing a lot 52 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:31,960 of natural habitats in the whole world, just from deforestation and farming and, you know, 53 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:38,440 agriculture and those kinds of things as people as our populations grow, the forests and 54 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:45,760 the wildlifes tend to disappear. And unfortunately, that's really, really bad for a lot of reasons, 55 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:52,760 like the climate. Another really great example of that would be the Great Barrier Reef, because 56 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:59,800 it was over touristy and just overpopulated and the water's temperatures are rising, 57 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:07,920 it completely bleached out that coral reef. And so because of that, that loss of habitat, 58 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:18,280 it had worldwide effects. Oh, this is a great question from Carrie. She says, how does 59 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:23,320 brown boxing and the selling wild caught specimen affect pricing of legitimate captive 60 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:29,080 breads? This is actually a really, really great question because, again, there have 61 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:36,440 been certain like dealers and breeders who have had like wild caught specimen come into 62 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:43,160 the hobby. And because of that, sometimes they do sell them at a lower price. And so 63 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:48,040 that affects the overall hobby because then those captive bred specimens are too expensive 64 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:54,040 for some people. And so they might look at those wild caught specimen as something that 65 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:58,520 they would appreciate more because it's a little cheaper price. But if you're doing 66 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:03,240 your research and, you know, you're really understanding what that species is and where 67 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:10,880 it comes from and all those things, then it's much, much safer and much better to get those 68 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:18,640 wild caught, you know, not to purchase the wild caught specimen, if you will. Wild caught 69 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:23,240 are brought in by greedy vendors that want to make more money instead of making the efforts 70 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:28,640 to breed them. I agree Simon, absolutely. The Mantis Garden, that is a very good point. 71 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:34,480 I also agree with this. Some people think that it's much easier to just, you know, like 72 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:40,120 where I live here in Colorado, we do have a species of tarantula that is native to this 73 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:45,320 region. It's known as the Fonapelma hensii, also known as the Texas brown or the Oklahoma 74 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:52,760 brown. This is a really cool tarantula, but it is a very slow growing tarantula. So captive 75 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:59,080 bred specimen of this species typically are sometimes kind of hard to find only because 76 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:08,080 it is such a slow growing species. It takes at least five to six years for a specimen to 77 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:15,440 mature if it is a female and close to three to four years if it's a male. And even then 78 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:22,160 there's no guarantee of a captive bred egg sac. And so what that means is possibly poachers 79 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:28,080 can go out and collect a specimen or two and then sell those at a lower rate because they 80 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:36,840 didn't put in a whole lot of time to breed that particular species. Also with wild caught 81 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:41,800 specimen, and this is the Mantis Garden, you make an excellent point, you're not going 82 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:49,360 to know what you're getting from the wild. So wild caught specimens tend to, sometimes 83 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:55,640 they have parasites or like nematodes or mites and stuff. And so if you bring that into your 84 00:09:55,640 --> 00:10:00,720 collection, you could be infecting the rest of your collection with that same parasite. 85 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:11,280 It is incredibly difficult to prevent nematodes simply because it's just not, it's not preventable. 86 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:16,880 We can't really see nematodes. It's not like you can detect them by the time that you do 87 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:25,960 detect them, it's too late. So usually, usually that's, it's a death sentence for a collection. 88 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:33,840 So I've heard of like people losing almost half of their entire collection due to parasites 89 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:38,720 from like wild caught specimens. So again, that's kind of a downfall of the wild caught 90 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:47,640 specimens. Definitely not, not wonderful, obviously. Also wild caught specimen, like 91 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:52,760 I said, they're going to be a little more wild. So they'll probably be a little more 92 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:59,200 spicy. They're going to have much more of an attitude. When I first got into the hobby, 93 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:07,560 my personal experience with wild caught specimen was with a Euphobatis marinus, also known 94 00:11:07,560 --> 00:11:18,160 as the Skeleton Lake tarantula. And the specimen that I got was just absolutely spicy and 95 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:26,160 hated people and just, you know, I don't want to personify the tarantula too much. But this 96 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:33,080 particular specimen, she was just very, very feisty and incredibly unhappy and stressed. 97 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:39,720 And so because she was that wild caught specimen, I ended up actually losing her a little earlier 98 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:47,360 than I had anticipated. Although I didn't know how old she was. I didn't know like what 99 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:51,760 she had been eating before. You know what I mean? There's no guarantee on the health 100 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:58,240 of that, of that tarantula. Just because they're wild caught and you don't know, you don't 101 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:03,960 know how long they've lived there. You don't know how old they are. And so yeah, it could 102 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:08,760 be very, very difficult to be able to map that out. Like tarantulas don't show their 103 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:14,880 age like we do. And any invert for that matter, they don't really show their age like we 104 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:20,680 do. I mean, when they're young, we know that they're young because they're small. But as 105 00:12:20,680 --> 00:12:28,480 far as like adult tarantulas, no, and adult inverts in general, like we can't, you can't 106 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:36,320 really have an estimate of how old they really are. Like I said before, wild caught specimens 107 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:44,120 though can be detrimental for a lot of reasons, like those parasites that, you know, we don't 108 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:51,760 know exactly how old they are, where they come from. And it also is really detrimental 109 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:58,320 to their natural habitat. And there have been many, many controversies over the years, especially 110 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:04,120 in like the tarantula hobby. I know that in the UK, there was a lot of controversy that 111 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:10,560 surrounded what species was that? Nat was telling me all about it. But here in the US, there 112 00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:18,240 was a major controversy actually within the last five years about the typoquana seledonia 113 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:27,200 or the T seledonia or Brazilian jewel, as a lot of us know it. And what had happened 114 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:34,880 was Brazil claimed that the person who imported the T seledonia didn't follow through with 115 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:41,560 the proper channels, they didn't have the proper permits, and all of those things. Fortunately, 116 00:13:41,560 --> 00:13:47,560 that has all been cleared up. And it's, it's not quite as big of a controversy now as it 117 00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:55,400 was, because that person who did import them was able to clarify everything. And, you know, 118 00:13:55,400 --> 00:14:00,320 they were able to, you know, go through the proper channels and show that paperwork and 119 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:07,040 prove that they were not in the wrong, which is really great for them. But in other cases 120 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:14,080 where if that kind of accusation comes upon another breeder, that can be a complete and 121 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:19,480 total death sentence to that person's career. So that's another thing to consider when it 122 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:27,280 comes to wild cause specimen. Also, because of the T seledonia controversy, Brazil has 123 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:32,800 become a lot more like Australia, and they have tightened up their restrictions as far 124 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:39,120 as, you know, what animals can be exported and what animals cannot be exported. So that 125 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:44,360 is another thing that plays a pretty large factor into the hobby and kind of where it 126 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:53,120 is. So captive bred specimens typically, I feel are, they're worth the price. If they 127 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:57,400 are a little more expensive than those wild caught guys, then they're worth that price. 128 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:03,640 Because you're not only, you're not only going to be paying for a wonderful specimen that, 129 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:08,440 you know, you know, is going to be healthy. It's not going to have those parasites. I 130 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:15,920 mean, the chances of it are a lot, a lot lower. But you're also going to get a specimen that 131 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:20,440 you can grow with. I know a lot of people who kind of come into the hobby and they're 132 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:26,200 super new to it. And the last thing they want is a sling. And I totally understand that 133 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:34,280 because slings are so tiny. But with getting like juveniles and subadults, again, from 134 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:39,120 reputable breeders, that's actually going to work in their benefit because again, they 135 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:47,600 can grow with that tarantula and they can learn with that tarantula and keep going as 136 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:52,560 far as that goes. Whereas wild caught specimen, that's, it's not really going to be like that. 137 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:59,240 Most likely it's going to be an adult that is already at its full size and spicy behaviors. 138 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:07,040 And it's not going to be acclimated to being in captivity like captive bred specimens are. 139 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:13,080 So I recommend staying away from wild caught specimens. Leave that to the breeders because 140 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:20,960 they are the ones who are helping the hobby grow and continue, continue flourishing, keeping 141 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:28,600 those species alive. I do also, like I mentioned before with the post-lithiaria metallica, 142 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:35,160 that specimen, that species is thriving wonderfully in the hobby. I mean, pretty much any exotic 143 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:42,560 pet show or any exotic animal dealers here in the States like a reptile, you know, store 144 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:47,840 or something like that, you will probably find a post-lithiaria metallica. They're pretty 145 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:53,280 common in the hobby. They're still a little expensive. I have seen some of them being 146 00:16:53,280 --> 00:17:05,960 sold for $250 for a spiderling. And obviously, like, you know, the older they get, like, 147 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:10,880 the price goes up a little bit just because they are much larger and there's been more 148 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:16,680 time dedicated to that specific specimen. But yes, captive bred is much, much better 149 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:25,200 for the hobby all around for sure. Also, it's much, much better for conservation. I know 150 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:30,000 this is something that a lot of people preach, you know, conservation. What does that actually 151 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:37,040 mean? Well, conservation means that, like I said before, the more people that are venturing 152 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:45,080 into the native habitats, then the more those natural habitats are going to disappear. A 153 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:52,000 really great example of that is Sri Lanka and India. The specimen that have been captured 154 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:58,480 and brought into the hobby, they over-capture them and over-capitalize on that. And then 155 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:07,000 they bring them into the hobby and those specimens, you know, they do well, but they're naturally 156 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:16,680 habitat doesn't anymore. Tarantulas have a very important and key role in nature. They 157 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:26,160 are part of the ecosystem and the part that they play is actually they are like population 158 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:33,680 control for other invertebrates. So if you have too many of one invert that say eats 159 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:41,640 foliage, you know, eats leaves and whatnot, tarantulas actually help to keep them, their 160 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:46,880 populations lower. So you're not going to have as much of that foliage disappearing 161 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:53,800 and stuff from that invert that eats the foliage. Here we have catapillars and hornworms, things 162 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:59,560 like that, that will like just devour plants. And without spiders that catch them and kill 163 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:06,640 them and eat them, then we would have no foliage. And that is again bad news for that natural 164 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:17,800 habitat. Let's see, the mantis guardian. Yes, Carrie asked, let's see, are wild caught 165 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:23,320 more likely to have parasites and how does that risk affect your collection? Yes, wild 166 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:29,840 caught definitely have a higher chance of having those parasites. And the parasites unfortunately 167 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:38,200 can be very, very difficult to control and to manage. And so yeah, like entire collections 168 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:45,640 can be wiped out pretty quickly just due to that fact. Yeah, so and then the mantis 169 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:53,440 guardian says, let's see, I've seen tubs of mantis niffs come in from African with different 170 00:19:53,440 --> 00:20:00,280 species in them. And that's another invert that definitely can suffer from that wild 171 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:09,280 caught habit, you know, that poachers might have and stuff is mantises, which in it's 172 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:17,280 totally, it's honestly unnecessary, you know, like here in the States, we have fear not 173 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:26,520 tarantulas, we have, you know, micro wilderness and a few others like even even rubber ducky 174 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:35,120 isopods who we've had on the channel before. Their, their specimen are all captive bred, 175 00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:41,680 or at least most of them are. There are some instances that are like the wild caught does 176 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:47,440 come in, like I know micro wilderness every now and then will have some wild caught specimen. 177 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:53,400 But again, they're only doing it to make sure that they diversify that bloodline of those 178 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:59,560 specific species. Because keeping them that bloodline diversified actually helps also 179 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:07,320 reduce the chances of bad molts and parasites, all of those things. So it's really, really 180 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:13,280 better, better for the hobby, better for the world and our environment for captive bred 181 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:19,960 to be the way to go. Another great example of how this can affect the ecosystems where 182 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:29,160 you live, I live here in Denver, Colorado. And recently, we had a major problem of deer 183 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:36,640 being overpopulated and unfortunately deer are, they're not the brightest animals in 184 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:43,200 the world and they want to cross highways and stuff. And so they get run over by trucks 185 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:48,480 or they get hit by cars and things like that. And so it can be pretty disastrous for those 186 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:57,400 creatures. But recently, because of the deer overpopulation, which also leads to disease 187 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:05,880 within those colonies or those packs of deer and overeating, like so the deer will overeat 188 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:13,640 and over, overrun the foliage and the plants that are all throughout their natural habitat. 189 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:18,160 And the reason why they were overpopulating and doing all of those things was because 190 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:26,780 there weren't a whole lot of natural predators to reduce the amount of deer that are taking 191 00:22:26,780 --> 00:22:31,840 over the habitat, right? We do have mountain lions and black bears, but they can only 192 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:41,720 do so much. So Colorado reintroduced wolves. They reintroduced wolves into the natural habitat 193 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:49,080 of the wolves. And those wolves have now helped the deer populations kind of simmer down. 194 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:55,520 And now we are foliage is also coming back. We're having more trees. We're having better 195 00:22:55,520 --> 00:23:01,720 ecosystem. The air is a lot more clear because of those plants, because they are given that 196 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:08,160 chance to thrive. Everything kind of works in a balance in ecosystems. And so because 197 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:16,200 of that, overpoaching and over collecting some of these wild specimens can be very detrimental 198 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:22,720 to those natural habitats. And deer and wolves are a really great example of that. But when 199 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:28,080 we're talking about invertebrates, obviously it's going to be much smaller scale than that. 200 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:35,400 But it still has as big of an impact as those deer and wolves do. So, yeah, so let's see. 201 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:42,840 Let's go to some comments here. Okay. Well, it looks like you guys are talking with one 202 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:48,120 another. That's wonderful to see. I love that. If anyone has any other questions, please 203 00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:57,560 feel free to pop them on in there. But there typically is a lot of like controversy around 204 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:05,080 brown boxing and wild caught specimen entering into the hobby. Most people in the hobby, 205 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:14,360 I do believe kind of look down on that and are not super fond of those kind of practices. 206 00:24:14,360 --> 00:24:21,320 Like I said, they're very, very bad for the environment. Like, let's say another really 207 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:29,000 good example of this is when wild caught specimen do come into an environment that is not native 208 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:36,840 to them or is not normal to them. A really great example of that is Florida. So the state 209 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:43,440 of Florida here in the United States, they actually are having at this moment a pretty 210 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:51,200 big issue with Burmese pythons that are overrunning the Everglades. And so because of that, these 211 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:59,920 very large, very incredible, beautiful snakes, of course, are overrunning the natural habitats 212 00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:05,480 of Florida. And so that means there's more competition for the alligators that also live 213 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:10,080 there. There's more competition for other predators that are going to prey on the same 214 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:18,000 prey that the Burmese pythons do. And so we're going to see the effects of that. So alligators 215 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:24,360 are not going to have as great of a chance of survival because that Burmese python is 216 00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:34,120 just running amok. And we're also seeing a loss of green anoles in Florida, or brown 217 00:25:34,120 --> 00:25:42,120 anoles because green anoles somehow were released and they are an invasive species. And again, 218 00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:50,440 there's too much competition for the food that they need and their sustenance. And so 219 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:56,960 because of that, we're seeing a loss of that natural specimen in the Florida Everglades. 220 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:02,920 So those brown anoles, they're a little bit smaller than green anoles. They're not equipped 221 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:11,320 to have that kind of competition. So unfortunately, they are now like an endangered species. And 222 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:17,840 we could very well see an extinction event with the brown anoles because of green anoles. 223 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:22,920 And I'm not saying that every green anole that's in Florida was a wild caught specimen. 224 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:29,160 This also leads to another thing of irresponsible pet owners who, you know, for whatever reason, 225 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:34,120 they feel that they can't take care of this animal anymore, or they don't want it, or 226 00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:41,560 maybe they were scared off for some reason. And so they release them into the wild, which 227 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:48,520 is really, really bad. It's actually a pretty big mistake. So if that ever does occur and 228 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:55,360 say, you know, you have some hissing cockroaches and they have reproduced so much that you 229 00:26:55,360 --> 00:27:05,000 cannot take care of so many of them, the best thing to do is to find a rescue nearby, or 230 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:12,000 even a pet store, like the exotic reptile pet stores, they will help, they will take 231 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:22,920 on that specimen and help you be rid of it, but also not allow it to overrun the native 232 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:31,200 territories in your area, which is much better. All right, let's see, guys. 233 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:38,240 I love it. Thank you guys so much for commenting. I really appreciate it. Shady being, Hano, 234 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:44,240 and the Mantis Garden, you guys are all wonderful. So Carrie also says that I read in a chat 235 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:49,520 that someone only bought from large corporation pet stores because she thought it ensured 236 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:55,760 that it wasn't wild caught. Is that an accurate thought? Unfortunately, it is not an accurate 237 00:27:55,760 --> 00:28:04,960 thought. A lot of the big chain pet stores sometimes will have a wild caught specimen. 238 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:11,320 I know here in the States, we have like Petco and PetSmart, and I don't recommend going to 239 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:19,840 them for your invertebrate needs or your reptile needs, only because they typically will have 240 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:26,800 imports that are wild caught specimen. And so for the overall thrive ability or like 241 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:35,320 the life of that specimen is not going to be as great as it was if they were in the wild. 242 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:44,280 That's just part of their natural way. So thought making it, I'm not failing. I'm doing 243 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:54,120 all right, you guys. Yeah, so those big chain pet stores, they don't always go through captive 244 00:28:54,120 --> 00:29:01,320 bred channels. And most of the time when they do have invertebrates in, they are wild caught 245 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:09,920 specimen. I know right now Mexico is also working on becoming a lot more effective as far as 246 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:16,920 like tightening their belt with imports and exports because the brocchipelma species that 247 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:24,640 are native to Mexico are starting to become more and more endangered. And so which also 248 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:31,240 means that prices of even captive bred specimen here in the States are going to go up just 249 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:38,440 because of that rarity and that endangered status of that specimen. So it's not great 250 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:44,200 for the hobby. It's definitely not good for the environment or their natural habitats. 251 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:52,480 And it's not good for those specific specimens for sure. You guys are so funny. I'm sorry, 252 00:29:52,480 --> 00:30:03,880 I'm not caught up on the comments. But so basically to sum up, wild caught specimen are only reasonable 253 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:09,520 or justifiable honestly when it comes for the breeders and the main dealers and stuff 254 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:16,880 who have their specimen of that particular species and that wild caught specimen that 255 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:22,640 they bring in actually helps to diversify the bloodlines. As I said before, it makes 256 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:28,000 make sure that those bloodlines are pure and they're kind of clean and it helps to prevent 257 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:38,960 you know deformities and like egg sacs not being quite as good as they could be. So 258 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:45,520 try to avoid wild caught specimens as much as you can you guys and always go with captive 259 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:53,840 bred. I am definitely an advocate for captive bred specimen mainly because of that reason. 260 00:30:54,480 --> 00:31:01,440 Conservation is such a huge thing in this world today. If you think about it too, if you could 261 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:09,120 just go out in your backyard and collect whatever mantises or you know dragonflies that you wanted, 262 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:14,080 that means that there's going to be less mantises and less dragonflies in the wild 263 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:19,440 in your backyard that are going to take care of other pests that you're not really super fond of. 264 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:27,520 So yeah, I was going to volunteer to help. Oh, I think you, Madness Garden, I appreciate that 265 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:35,520 trying to do the best that I can at the moment. But yeah, so losing a few bodies, I don't know. 266 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:42,240 Unfortunately, Nat had another obligation that he was involved in. Oh, hello. 267 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:49,600 Hello. I've only just got in, Leah. But I've listened to a little bit so far. It sounds like 268 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:56,160 you're having a really nice conversation at the moment. Yeah, definitely. I think I've had a couple 269 00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:01,040 of pretty decent points there and you know talking about kind of the natural habitats and why 270 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:08,400 it's not so great for them to be wild caught. But I'm sure you've got a few really great insights 271 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:18,800 in that. Well, have you covered the topic of just deforestation? So yeah, 272 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:25,280 so sort of thinking about when we think about the Pokalotharia, for instance, Pokalotharia 273 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:36,160 Metallica, it's a prime one that they, their numbers are dwindling in the wild and partly 274 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:42,160 because they are pretty in blue and everyone wants one. So people are going out and poaching them, 275 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:52,560 which you know, it's not a collection with a permit, it is poaching. So it's something that 276 00:32:52,560 --> 00:33:01,360 we really do need to take on board, isn't it? Because if the wild species of the animals of the 277 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:11,520 area are taken out, there's no reason to, there's no reason to preserve the natural habitat, 278 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:16,960 which then gets taken over for extensive farming and things. Though there have been 279 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:24,240 suggestions recently that they are adapting slightly to living in more built up areas, 280 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:31,200 but that's not really ideal. And something that I was reading the other day, which was even 281 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:38,800 which shocked me even more was that it's not just taking the, it's not just taking the specimens 282 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,720 out of the wild, but some people are leaving the specimens there, but taking the egg sacs. 283 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:48,640 So, and those are the egg sacs that are there to sort of populate and 284 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:57,440 keep everything going. I can see that Simon was saying it happened a few years ago with the Orchid 285 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:02,720 Mantis. It became so popular that people were taking ooth from the wild and the population 286 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:10,640 plummeted. And that's one of the things is everyone wants that new exciting thing, don't they? 287 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:17,520 Yes, absolutely. Of course. They want that new exciting tranche. I believe that was just a brand 288 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:22,480 new one that's been discovered in the Amazon. I haven't done any research on it yet, 289 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:28,400 but everyone's going to want that. Now, we don't know what that population size is. And 290 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:34,400 it's not just taking it from the wild for it is actually for our selfish benefit, isn't it? So, 291 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:40,000 I think we would be Marit Marit to say that 292 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:50,240 that we haven't, no one has dealings with wild culture anchors or mantis or any other invertebrates 293 00:34:50,240 --> 00:34:57,200 because they had to come from somewhere at the very beginning. Shady things also is saying that 294 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,680 it's happening now with the Vietnam silver tarantula that they're taking mom and sacs 295 00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:07,520 from the wild. And that I agree that that can be devastating in that environment. 296 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:14,480 But also the impact that it's having on the ecosystem themselves, like they're within that 297 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:21,360 ecosystem within the food chain, and they play a part on that, whether we're taking monkeys or 298 00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:30,080 mantis, it's going to impact. And you might end up with an outbreak of another 299 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:38,800 more undesirable invertebrate that's maybe eating crops and things when you're taking these things 300 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:49,120 out of the wild. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think captive bred, there's a lot of benefits to 301 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:54,640 only purchasing from captive bred. Not only are you going to be supporting a local business to 302 00:35:54,640 --> 00:36:00,000 where you are or like a national business, sometimes they're national, like fear not tarantulas. 303 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,320 But you're going to be supporting that business, but you're also going to be helping 304 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:10,960 that conservation of that specific species. Because the more captive bred specimen that you buy, 305 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:16,080 the less that need to be poached from the wild, if that makes sense. 306 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:25,840 Yeah. And I have to agree with that. It does. However, I always feel there is a slight however 307 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:32,800 on that. People do want the big adult spider. Yes. So it's like that confidence, isn't it? 308 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:38,160 So about people having confidence to raise a sling and do that. And lots of people, 309 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,800 I think we're within a culture where we're like, now we want it now and we want this 310 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:48,240 big, beautiful thing. And actually, for me, the hobbies taught me a lot of patience, actually. 311 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:55,120 I have lots of tarantulas in my collection at the moment, like the Brazilian blue or, 312 00:36:55,120 --> 00:37:03,680 you know, like electric this and, you know, right. And they're all brown at the moment. 313 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:11,120 By the Simaroxicorum. Yeah. Yeah. So the Christmas. But, you know, they're all brown at the moment. 314 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:18,160 And people are like, oh, you know, it is that. And I don't know how we get over that hurdle. 315 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:25,040 It's difficult because I do think that a lot of beginners come into the hobby and they kind 316 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:30,800 of think, well, a little tiny thing, you know, they might get one or two little tiny slings 317 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:38,960 or something like that. And they find it to be very difficult. But it's kind of ironic because 318 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:44,480 if you are doing that research, if you are kind of following what the hobby does and just kind of 319 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:51,920 where we go with everything, then it doesn't have to be so difficult. So just kind of keeping up 320 00:37:51,920 --> 00:38:00,160 with that education really, really helps along with the hobby and ensuring that species longevity. 321 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,480 Because if it disappears in the wild, then it's going to disappear from the hobby. 322 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:12,080 It's just a matter of fact, isn't it? And when we think about breeding, 323 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,800 I could be wrong, Leah, but please do correct me if I'm wrong. But 324 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:26,400 or the chat as well is I've read that through generational breeding that 325 00:38:28,240 --> 00:38:37,120 they become less fertile as well. So through generations, generations, but I'm not. 326 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:45,040 No, that actually kind of makes sense because we even see that in canines. You get all these, 327 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:51,520 like domesticated and, well, they call them designer dogs and whatnot. It's because if you 328 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:58,240 have a poodle that is pure blood poodle and all these things, eventually those poodles can't 329 00:38:58,240 --> 00:39:04,800 reproduce quite as well as they had when they first kind of showed up. So diversifying those 330 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:12,480 bloodlines is definitely necessary. But as I said before, I think that it's better left to those 331 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:18,240 breeders, to the people who are providing those captive bred specimen in the hobby. 332 00:39:18,240 --> 00:39:22,960 Most definitely. And I heard what you were saying before I came on. There is definitely a place 333 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:30,880 for wild caught with a license, not poaching. It's a lot of people do it to get that done. 334 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:35,280 I don't know about you, Leah, but I have had people messaging me. So they'd be messaging 335 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:42,560 some set spiders, Hi, would you like some black tarantulas? Okay, you know, having conversations. 336 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,160 And it's like, yes, I have loads in my village in India. And it's like, 337 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:54,960 yeah, we can't really do that. Yeah, we're not doing. So it's with a license and things like that. 338 00:39:54,960 --> 00:40:04,000 But I find it very interesting that, say, other invertebrates, such as scorpions and centipedes, 339 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:10,880 are generally wild cool. I've heard that too. I have heard that. Although I know that there are 340 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:18,560 quite a few species of like scorpions that are that do really well being captive bred. And 341 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:26,400 I think the giant Asian forest scorpion is one of them that does really well in captivity. And it 342 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:33,040 also does really well being captive bred. I know I've seen lots of captive bred specimen here in 343 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:40,800 the States. I'm not really sure about the UK. But yeah, I mean, some species of scorpion, 344 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:49,280 I like to think them as kind of like orb weavers, orb weaver spiders don't always do very good in 345 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:55,840 captivity. So they're kind of just better left alone. But they are gorgeous. And they're beautiful. 346 00:40:55,840 --> 00:41:04,000 It's just we can't really provide them the space and basically the environment that they would 347 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:10,400 actually really need to thrive. So orb weavers tend to not do very well at all in captivity. So 348 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:16,160 Kerry's got a very, very good question. Sort of thinking, do you think that 349 00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:23,200 that it can have an opposite effect like where we see invasive species like the Chinese mantis? 350 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:30,480 And I think there is lots of issues around that, isn't there? About when we're talking about 351 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:35,040 brown boxing, I'm not sure is this about brown boxing today, Leah? Or is it more wild cool? 352 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:41,520 It's brown box. I haven't touched brown boxing totally. But yeah, yeah, we got all of it. 353 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:51,360 I think like smuggling, hey? Yes. So smuggling, you're gonna, there is, there's possibilities 354 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:58,080 of having invasive species coming into the country. There might be a reason. So if we look at the 355 00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:05,040 border controls in Australia and New Zealand, like that's so strict. They are incredibly strict. Yes. 356 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,400 But there is reasons behind that because it does impact the ecosystem. And 357 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:15,760 Simon might have something to say on this, but it's a bit like the, I know he's written a book 358 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:20,640 about hedgehogs. So he might know about squirrels, but it's a bit like in England with the gray and 359 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:26,960 red squirrels. So the gray squirrels are in an invasive species that have effectively kicked 360 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:33,600 the red squirrels off the land as such. So and that can be transferred over into, 361 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:40,800 into invertebrates, can't it? So there's always a battle for resources for food, 362 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:48,640 all of those sorts of aspects. And when we think about like invasive species, like I don't know 363 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:56,240 whether brown boxing could increase, it could increase the likelihood of an invasive species, 364 00:42:56,240 --> 00:43:02,000 but that's when you come down to having irresponsible keeper who might release them into the wild. 365 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:10,880 Like the green and old in Florida actually, and Fermi's Python, you know, a couple of irresponsible 366 00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:15,280 owners and, you know, maybe they just didn't want that specimen for whatever reason. And then they 367 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:22,800 release it into the wild. And now it has, it has just rendered havoc all throughout that environment, 368 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:28,000 especially with the green anoles have actually knocked out brown anoles. 369 00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:35,520 And the iguanas as well. Yep, iguanas. Yep. And parrots and things. But I think a very valid 370 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:43,920 point though is that lots of people don't know that they are breaking the law when they get 371 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:48,320 something brown boxed to them, because they may not even know it's being brown boxed. So for 372 00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:55,120 instance, I know that in the States, you can only send live animals through UPS, UPS or FedEx, 373 00:43:55,120 --> 00:44:02,720 one of them. FedEx. Yeah. There is a law against sending venomous creatures through your mail system. 374 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:10,000 So they can't be sent through the post, but you might get sellers who will go, hey, it's a bit 375 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:16,720 cheaper, I'll send it through the post and it's sort of, but it's when you get people maybe buying 376 00:44:16,720 --> 00:44:23,920 stuff from the States, so they might go on to arachnabourts, for instance. And there might be, 377 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:30,240 let's pick on a country, let's pick on, I don't know, Spain. There's someone in Spain saying, 378 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:36,320 I'd ship tarantulas worldwide. And what they'll do is they will just send them through the normal 379 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:42,080 post system. So there's a couple of risks there, isn't there? So you've got the risk of the animal 380 00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:50,640 dying. Yeah. The risk of Spain to Massachusetts is going to be at least a month or two. 381 00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:58,480 Yeah, exactly. Even if it's air melded over and everything, there is the possibility of 382 00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:05,440 you getting a really big fine for receiving a parcel with animals in that hasn't been declared, 383 00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:12,320 because it has to go through all the right things. There's also the possibility, and it sort of goes 384 00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:19,040 back onto the wildcourt topic as well, there is the possibility of introducing a disease 385 00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:26,640 into your collection. So that could be something like nematodes, let's say. So 386 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:34,240 right, or a specific kind of parasitic mites. Right, right, right. And who knows, because that, 387 00:45:34,240 --> 00:45:39,760 sometimes you don't know, like those mites could also affect, say it's affecting your tarantula 388 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:45,280 that you got brown boxed, but it also could affect your reptiles. It could possibly affect your 389 00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:51,920 cats and dogs. So you just don't know what kind of parasites are in there and what could possibly 390 00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:59,920 cause damage. I do know that here, occasionally, we have bananas shipped in from like Costa Rica and 391 00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:07,040 you know, places where the bananas are native. And so along with bananas, we also get little 392 00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:16,640 hitchhikers, like banana spiders or the Brazilian wandering spider. I've heard of these guys coming 393 00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:22,320 into the States only because they were hiding among the bananas. And then boom, there they are. 394 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:28,320 Yeah, we actually had a local supermarket closed down in the UK just the other day. 395 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:35,600 I think the headline was quite funny. It was store closed down fear of spider that can 396 00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:42,800 cause permanent erection, which is one of them. I saw that. Yeah. I did see that. Yeah. And I 397 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:48,000 I was laughing, but I would really like some of my own bananas from that shop, just for the 398 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:56,080 spider. No, no other reason. We actually do see it on some of the chat groups as people will get 399 00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:07,040 to buy some bananas and they'll have an exact on it. No, no, no spiders, but no exact. But also 400 00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:17,040 if Simon's put a really interesting comment in there is about breeding to a point. So they're 401 00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:22,560 booming in captivity to a point where they can be released back into the wild. 402 00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:27,360 See, and that is that is something that I actually really agree with. 403 00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:35,120 Because that's I almost I wonder if this is something that we could do with the postal 404 00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:43,600 ethereum Metallica because its numbers are so so low. But we have an abundance of them here 405 00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:51,040 in the hobby. And so I always wonder that like, could we take half of a sack and just put it in 406 00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:58,880 the wild? But I'm not sure. Bugs in cyberspace, he does that, doesn't he? I believe so. So 407 00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:07,520 he's one of the sort of he's he's really into sustainability and things and he does 408 00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:16,160 wild cat wild sell wild caught tarantulas. But he has big breeding projects where he releases half 409 00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:23,200 the sack always back into the wild, which I think is brilliant. But he's he's probably not the only 410 00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:26,800 one but in my mind, he's the only one that actually does that who's very vocal about it. 411 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:34,240 And I think it's a brilliant idea. But I think there is a barrier to it, Leo. And I think the 412 00:48:34,240 --> 00:48:40,240 biggest barrier to it is money. I agree. So when people go, Oh, I've got a sling and I don't know 413 00:48:40,240 --> 00:48:45,920 how much is a how much would a vocal theorem Metallica be for you guys over there? Right now, 414 00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:52,320 it depends on where you go. But usually you can get them for about 150 to 250 for a sling. 415 00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:59,120 Yeah. So that's actually quite a lot. It is. Yes. So when people are doing that. And I have been, 416 00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:05,680 you know, I've been listening to Tom rank quite a lot, as always, in the car. And it just ponders 417 00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,800 through my head. Sometimes it's like, is there not anything we can do where there's like a 418 00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:16,640 breeding project where these numbers are dwindling, where we can put them back in. But then then you're 419 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:22,400 going to have to be thinking about having like a protected area. So we, you know, like a nature 420 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:28,160 reserve, things like that. Well, in a couple of years, people are just going to take them out 421 00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:35,520 again, which would be an issue possibly. Yes, absolutely. I mean, I think that that for that to 422 00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:42,880 be effective, I think that it would have to be localized. Like so for me here in Colorado, 423 00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:50,400 say I had an Afonapelma hensi, which is a native species here, the best way to kind of help that 424 00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:57,280 would just to do it locally. So if you know, like you in the UK, you guys get those, they're called 425 00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:04,800 lady bird spiders, or they're a type of velvet spider. And they actually were thought to be 426 00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:16,160 extinct until they were found. But because the hobby is what it is, they are pretty abundant, 427 00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:22,560 if you will, in the hobby. And so, you know, say if you had a couple of the lady bird velvet 428 00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:29,120 spiders, you know, it's possible if you had a sack, you could release part of that sack and help those 429 00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:39,040 numbers, if you will. Yeah, yeah. I do it with black widows. And you know, if I find a black 430 00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:46,880 widow or like a jumping spider, I will, you know, if they are already bred or if they're already 431 00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:53,680 like, gravid, then for the most part, I only keep a couple for my own breeding project. But I release 432 00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:59,760 the rest. And I don't really go too far because they're pretty much all over the place. So I have 433 00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:07,600 a couple of jumping spider sacks that I released really close to my home. Because I find them all 434 00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:17,040 the time, all over the place. So yeah, but I think, yeah, and I doubt that you, you know, in your 435 00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:24,640 state, you're lacking of spiders. I think it seems to happen more so as well in more impoverished 436 00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:33,520 areas. So that's when we start thinking about Brazil, Mexico, Sri Lanka, Sri Lanka, 437 00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:42,400 certain parts of India and Europe. So it's, you know, you can see why people do it. 438 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:48,480 But there's a big craze, they're going to make a quick couple of bucks. I think one of the really, 439 00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:51,760 really big issues with it as well though is they're going around collecting all of these 440 00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:57,680 spiders and by the time they're shipped over, let's say you spend, it doesn't even have any 441 00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:03,440 spiders, mantis as well, anything you put them in, let's say you send 100 items over, 442 00:52:04,240 --> 00:52:11,840 you're going to get about a 30% death rate anyway. Just from the trip alone. From the trip through 443 00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:19,840 stress, dehydration, all those people don't know how to properly pack them. Right. So that's, 444 00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:28,480 that's another thing. I agree. No, definitely. But it's, it's, it's tough out there. I mean, we, 445 00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:35,920 I think the, the more captive bread we can do the better. But I do agree. I think there's a 446 00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:44,800 really great quote that says, desperation is the mother of all crime. So, and when we're talking 447 00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:51,440 about brown, brown boxing and poaching, it is a crime, you know, and so in these, you know, 448 00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:58,400 impoverished places, then, then there is a lot of desperation. So it's, it just kind of leads to 449 00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:05,920 that, unfortunately. So I agree with you. You know, and, and as, as Simon has said as well, 450 00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:16,480 they get a week's worth of wages for an oof. Well, it's an, as he says, it's a no brainer. But I, 451 00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:23,360 I think we just need to be sort of responsible in the hobby and trying to express that we need to, 452 00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:29,840 you know, we need to preserve this hobby. And one, have you touched on why another reason why 453 00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:36,640 brown, wildcourt and brown boxing might be bad if we start thinking about the wildlife federation 454 00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:43,280 agencies and stuff and what they might do? No, I haven't. So, so, so if we were to think about it, 455 00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:52,400 yeah, everyone's going out making, you know, picking up mantis and millipedes, centipedes, 456 00:53:52,400 --> 00:54:00,560 all of this kind of thing and taking them from a country. But it is a crime, as you said, and it 457 00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:07,840 filters into a crime. And like we see it quite a lot with Brazil closing their borders down to any 458 00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:14,640 imports or exports of animals. It happened a bit in Mexico for a while, I believe. Yeah, 459 00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:21,360 next goes to, they are definitely going in that direction. There are, there's a lots of those 460 00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:27,520 restrictions that are getting put down. And then what happens, luckily in Europe, it's not as bad 461 00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:33,440 over here. I know within the states, it is a state by state as well. So some states you're not even 462 00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:41,920 allowed to transfer a pocletharia over state lines. Right. And I believe the postal ethereum, Miranda 463 00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:48,080 is one, and the Vitata, I believe those two are very hard to get your hands on them. 464 00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:53,680 Yeah, yeah, yeah. If they're not within your own state. So. Exactly. And what can happen is you'll 465 00:54:53,680 --> 00:55:00,080 end up just having what you can have in your own state, because also you're going to need a big 466 00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:10,640 spider community within your state to make it worth even breeding a spider. And then so people 467 00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:16,960 are going to stop doing that. And then it's, you know, it's going to dwindle. And, but it's really 468 00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:24,080 hard to sort of measure with the invert hobby, not just tarantulas, but just the invert hobby in 469 00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:32,320 itself growing. It is growing and growing and growing. It's absolutely bonkers how fast it's 470 00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:41,200 growing. Well, the demand is exceeding the supply. Yeah. And so once again, wild caught goes back 471 00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:48,560 to wild caught again, doesn't it? And yes, it's tricky. Absolutely. Yeah. So this is a pretty, 472 00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:55,680 pretty big topic. There's a lot to it. And so yeah, I mean, I'm excited to hear from other people 473 00:55:55,680 --> 00:56:02,480 what they think about it and kind of see if there's, there's ideas of things that we can do within 474 00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:08,560 the hobby that help that conservation and help those specimen in the wild. But yeah, I mean, 475 00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:15,440 it's, it's, it's very dangerous, I think for wild caught specimen, mostly, you know, the parasites, 476 00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:24,560 the habitat loss, the, you don't know exactly how old that specimen is or how, you know, how it has 477 00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:30,240 fared in the wild. You don't know the history behind it. I hear that quite a lot with scorpions, 478 00:56:30,240 --> 00:56:36,480 actually, people will have them and, and they'll pass within six months or, yeah, or so, and they'll 479 00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:42,640 pop it onto a group and people will be like that. You've got sold a really old scorpion, 480 00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:50,080 you don't know how old it is and right, right, right. It feeds into it. Yeah, it's wild. So, 481 00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:55,440 and I believe Simon was saying that the velvet spiders are super protected over there. So 482 00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:02,560 he says that if you actually even touch one, that they're extremely protected. So 483 00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:11,280 yeah, and that makes sense. You know, I do, I do think that all creatures, you know, have a 484 00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:18,080 impact on their environment. They have, you know, a role that they play in their, in their natural 485 00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:24,320 habitat. And so by taking those specimen out of the wild, you are going to be impacting 486 00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:32,240 their role. They're, you're going to be basically limiting their reach. And that can be, you know, 487 00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:39,280 really bad for that ecosystem. Yeah, most definitely. And there are things that we can do as 488 00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:46,000 responsible invert keepers as well. So one of the suggestions would be if you're looking to buy 489 00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:55,280 a spider, a mantis, a vampire crab even, right, ask the seller where, where they're from. So 490 00:57:55,280 --> 00:58:02,400 responsible sellers should be able to tell you where they're from, whether they are captive 491 00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:09,680 bred or wild cool. And they shouldn't have an issue with telling you where they're from either. 492 00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:16,880 Sometimes it's a bit tricky because you might have someone that's bought into an import and 493 00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:22,720 doing that. But generally, they would still know it's the people that are just trying to sell you 494 00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:30,400 stuff. Yeah, over Facebook messenger, when you're writing these messages, I'm actually getting them 495 00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:34,320 at the moment where people going, Oh, my friend bought this off of you, but I think it's a scam, 496 00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:41,120 I don't sell anything. But yeah, it's about just asking those questions. No one really minds if 497 00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:44,560 they're, you know, if they're reputable sellers, they won't mind at all. 498 00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:52,160 Right, right, right. And then, you know, I agree with you on that for sure. If there's somebody 499 00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:57,120 who's out there who has, you know, they're reputable seller, they're doing their captive 500 00:58:57,120 --> 00:59:04,000 bred, you know, they'll be very upfront with that. And they'll be, you know, proud of that. Because I 501 00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:09,200 do agree that that's something that is definitely something to be proud of. But if they are shady 502 00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:15,760 about it, if they're not really forthcoming or if they're just not, you know, then be wary of that, 503 00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:19,360 be wary of that dealer. Absolutely. 504 00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:32,000 It looks like shady things and Simon are, they're talking about buying mantises from one another, 505 00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:37,040 perhaps, I don't know. Wonderful. What a wonderful chat. 506 00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:43,840 So, but if people do want to buy Mantis in the UK, hit Simon up from the Mantis Garden. 507 00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:51,680 From the Mantis Garden. Yeah, he doesn't just sell Mantis, he has many other things and he'll even 508 00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:56,000 sell you a tarantula. He'll probably sell you Liliana's tarantulas to get that house, but 509 00:59:57,040 --> 01:00:04,480 just don't tell her. Right. But Simon, I've had some Mantis from Simon and they're absolutely 510 01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:10,880 fantastic. So, he's a really reputable person to buy them from because he's done live streams of 511 01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:16,080 him actually breeding his Mantis and things so we know where they come from. Just good. 512 01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:22,480 I'm pretty jealous of you guys over in the UK, to be honest, because you have a whole invert show. 513 01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:29,040 Whereas here in the States, it kind of gets lumped in with the reptile expos and shows. And so, 514 01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:39,120 I don't, I'm not sure that invertebrates here are as popular or as like established, if you will, 515 01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:47,120 as they are in the UK. So, I think I know of like one place where you can get really great 516 01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:54,560 captive bred Mantises and that would be usmantis.com and they do captive bred, they have their own. 517 01:00:54,560 --> 01:01:02,160 I know Micro Wilderness does some Mantises too, but yeah, it's tough, it's tricky. It's tricky to 518 01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:08,800 find good ones. Yeah, but you've got, you have got some brilliant sellers and breeders in the States for 519 01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:17,120 for your inverts, haven't you? Absolutely. Yeah. Yep. Love it. Thank you so much for popping 520 01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:24,240 a line. No worries. I was, I was, I think I was drowning. I think you did really well. 521 01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:30,960 Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, no, brilliant. And I'll just do a little plug for anyone that 522 01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:38,400 listens afterwards, but if people wanted to get a tarantula that's not wild cool, they can go to 523 01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:45,760 the spider shop UK and that's thespidershop.com and use code Somerset to get a cheeky little discount. 524 01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:52,720 So, awesome. I wonder if that, does that extend, does that extend here in the US? Because I know 525 01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:59,040 spider shop is here as well. No, so you're, you've got the spider shop, it's got like an extra P or 526 01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:08,240 an extra O in it. Right. This is the spider shop UK. Ah, okay. Yeah. Sorry, two different companies, 527 01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:12,800 two different companies. Yeah. Yeah, they've got like an extra P in the spider shop, I think, 528 01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:19,520 in your space shop. They do, like PPE, something like that. Because the spider shop UK was set up 529 01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:31,520 for the US one. Interesting. I know, I think that we are also, we also still have that 25% off of 530 01:02:31,520 --> 01:02:40,720 Robert Ducky, if you just type in inverted cast 25 at Robert Ducky isopods. Yeah. So, we still have, 531 01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:47,200 we still, I think there's a little bit more time on that one. So, don't forget that. Yeah, 532 01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:53,920 no, absolutely not. Well, thank you, Leah. Absolutely. Thank you, Nat. And thank you, 533 01:02:53,920 --> 01:03:18,000 everyone, for watching. We'll see you guys next week. Bye.