Hello. Welcome to Invertecast. I, of course, am Leah from Invertecast, but you also might
know me from Torrentia Leah. And today, I am going to be discussing the differences
between wild caught and captive bred species of invertebrates. So hopefully I can help
answer some questions for everybody and get the ball rolling. So firstly, I'll discuss
what it means for an invertebrate to be captive bred. Basically, that means that it is a specimen
of invertebrate like a tarantula or, you know, like assassin bugs or whatever that have already
been in captivity and then they have been bred to continue the captive bred or the species
in the hobby, essentially. And a wild caught specimen is one that somebody had gone into
its natural habitats and collected it and then sold it into the hobby. So that is a wild
caught specimen. So some of the topics that range on this particular topic is, you know,
is it good for wild caught to be introduced and brought into the hobby or is it better
to leave them in the wild? So if anyone has any questions, feel free to toss them in the
comments. I will happily answer those questions and you might even get your comment highlighted.
Ha ha. Anyhow, so first and foremost, when everybody, when you think of wild caught
specimens, most people think of, you know, conservation and that for me, that's the first
thing that comes to my mind is wild caught specimens are not really, they're just, they're
not very conducive to conservation of that species, that particular species in the wild.
A really great example of this is in the tarantula world, the postal ethereal metallica, which
comes from India, it comes from actually a very small part of Sri Lanka. And because
of the over-collecting and over-catching them from the wild and stuff, there are now like
less than 100 specimen in the wild, which is really bad for that ecosystem and that
environment. So that also means that, you know, that specific species of tarantula now has
a far less chance of actually surviving in the wild and like continuing that bloodline.
Now on the other hand, some wild caught specimen can be good in the hobby because it is able
to keep bloodlines kind of fresh and inbreeding shouldn't be as much of a problem so long
as there's, you know, sometimes wild caught specimen. We also have seen that when we get
imports of wild caught specimens, sometimes we also get, you know, species of tarantulas
and inverts that we weren't actually expecting in those imports. A really great example of
this is the cereopigus, I believe it's the cereopigus aureotibialis. This was a species
that was previously mostly unknown to the hobby and one they were sending in, you know,
kilobrochis levidum or cereopigus levidum and other kilobrochis species and this, you
know, cereopigus aureotibialis appeared and it was very confusing but since then it has
become a very, very popular specimen species in the hobby. With that being said, there
are plenty of captive bred specimen obviously available now. You can get plenty of captive
bred specimens from all spectrums of the invertebrate world. However, wild caught specimens do help
to kind of keep the bloodlines diversified and not so inbred if you will. I am an advocate
for captive bred specimens. I definitely am not super thrilled about having wild caught
specimen in my collection. That's something that I definitely try to avoid at, you know,
pretty much all cost. If I do believe that there is a wild caught specimen that is available
and stuff I typically won't purchase that specimen, I won't actually purchase that.
So let me know what you guys think. Does anyone who is watching currently, do you have any
wild caught specimens in your collections? And if you do, have you noticed if there's
like a difference between them and your captive bred specimen? That's kind of leading into
our next topic here is that a wild caught specimen is not going to be quite as like
docile and used to humans as a captive bred specimen will be. Let me get this started.
I appreciate that Simon. He says, I would shoot anyone that brought in wild caught specimens
that are already established in captivity. I completely agree with this, mainly because
in the name of conservation, as I've said before, like the more people are entrenching
on those natural habitats of these specimens, the more people are going in there, the more
they're going and capturing these species and tarantulas or Madagascar hissing cockroaches,
for example, then the more that that habitat starts to disappear. So we're losing a lot
of natural habitats in the whole world, just from deforestation and farming and, you know,
agriculture and those kinds of things as people as our populations grow, the forests and
the wildlifes tend to disappear. And unfortunately, that's really, really bad for a lot of reasons,
like the climate. Another really great example of that would be the Great Barrier Reef, because
it was over touristy and just overpopulated and the water's temperatures are rising,
it completely bleached out that coral reef. And so because of that, that loss of habitat,
it had worldwide effects. Oh, this is a great question from Carrie. She says, how does
brown boxing and the selling wild caught specimen affect pricing of legitimate captive
breads? This is actually a really, really great question because, again, there have
been certain like dealers and breeders who have had like wild caught specimen come into
the hobby. And because of that, sometimes they do sell them at a lower price. And so
that affects the overall hobby because then those captive bred specimens are too expensive
for some people. And so they might look at those wild caught specimen as something that
they would appreciate more because it's a little cheaper price. But if you're doing
your research and, you know, you're really understanding what that species is and where
it comes from and all those things, then it's much, much safer and much better to get those
wild caught, you know, not to purchase the wild caught specimen, if you will. Wild caught
are brought in by greedy vendors that want to make more money instead of making the efforts
to breed them. I agree Simon, absolutely. The Mantis Garden, that is a very good point.
I also agree with this. Some people think that it's much easier to just, you know, like
where I live here in Colorado, we do have a species of tarantula that is native to this
region. It's known as the Fonapelma hensii, also known as the Texas brown or the Oklahoma
brown. This is a really cool tarantula, but it is a very slow growing tarantula. So captive
bred specimen of this species typically are sometimes kind of hard to find only because
it is such a slow growing species. It takes at least five to six years for a specimen to
mature if it is a female and close to three to four years if it's a male. And even then
there's no guarantee of a captive bred egg sac. And so what that means is possibly poachers
can go out and collect a specimen or two and then sell those at a lower rate because they
didn't put in a whole lot of time to breed that particular species. Also with wild caught
specimen, and this is the Mantis Garden, you make an excellent point, you're not going
to know what you're getting from the wild. So wild caught specimens tend to, sometimes
they have parasites or like nematodes or mites and stuff. And so if you bring that into your
collection, you could be infecting the rest of your collection with that same parasite.
It is incredibly difficult to prevent nematodes simply because it's just not, it's not preventable.
We can't really see nematodes. It's not like you can detect them by the time that you do
detect them, it's too late. So usually, usually that's, it's a death sentence for a collection.
So I've heard of like people losing almost half of their entire collection due to parasites
from like wild caught specimens. So again, that's kind of a downfall of the wild caught
specimens. Definitely not, not wonderful, obviously. Also wild caught specimen, like
I said, they're going to be a little more wild. So they'll probably be a little more
spicy. They're going to have much more of an attitude. When I first got into the hobby,
my personal experience with wild caught specimen was with a Euphobatis marinus, also known
as the Skeleton Lake tarantula. And the specimen that I got was just absolutely spicy and
hated people and just, you know, I don't want to personify the tarantula too much. But this
particular specimen, she was just very, very feisty and incredibly unhappy and stressed.
And so because she was that wild caught specimen, I ended up actually losing her a little earlier
than I had anticipated. Although I didn't know how old she was. I didn't know like what
she had been eating before. You know what I mean? There's no guarantee on the health
of that, of that tarantula. Just because they're wild caught and you don't know, you don't
know how long they've lived there. You don't know how old they are. And so yeah, it could
be very, very difficult to be able to map that out. Like tarantulas don't show their
age like we do. And any invert for that matter, they don't really show their age like we
do. I mean, when they're young, we know that they're young because they're small. But as
far as like adult tarantulas, no, and adult inverts in general, like we can't, you can't
really have an estimate of how old they really are. Like I said before, wild caught specimens
though can be detrimental for a lot of reasons, like those parasites that, you know, we don't
know exactly how old they are, where they come from. And it also is really detrimental
to their natural habitat. And there have been many, many controversies over the years, especially
in like the tarantula hobby. I know that in the UK, there was a lot of controversy that
surrounded what species was that? Nat was telling me all about it. But here in the US, there
was a major controversy actually within the last five years about the typoquana seledonia
or the T seledonia or Brazilian jewel, as a lot of us know it. And what had happened
was Brazil claimed that the person who imported the T seledonia didn't follow through with
the proper channels, they didn't have the proper permits, and all of those things. Fortunately,
that has all been cleared up. And it's, it's not quite as big of a controversy now as it
was, because that person who did import them was able to clarify everything. And, you know,
they were able to, you know, go through the proper channels and show that paperwork and
prove that they were not in the wrong, which is really great for them. But in other cases
where if that kind of accusation comes upon another breeder, that can be a complete and
total death sentence to that person's career. So that's another thing to consider when it
comes to wild cause specimen. Also, because of the T seledonia controversy, Brazil has
become a lot more like Australia, and they have tightened up their restrictions as far
as, you know, what animals can be exported and what animals cannot be exported. So that
is another thing that plays a pretty large factor into the hobby and kind of where it
is. So captive bred specimens typically, I feel are, they're worth the price. If they
are a little more expensive than those wild caught guys, then they're worth that price.
Because you're not only, you're not only going to be paying for a wonderful specimen that,
you know, you know, is going to be healthy. It's not going to have those parasites. I
mean, the chances of it are a lot, a lot lower. But you're also going to get a specimen that
you can grow with. I know a lot of people who kind of come into the hobby and they're
super new to it. And the last thing they want is a sling. And I totally understand that
because slings are so tiny. But with getting like juveniles and subadults, again, from
reputable breeders, that's actually going to work in their benefit because again, they
can grow with that tarantula and they can learn with that tarantula and keep going as
far as that goes. Whereas wild caught specimen, that's, it's not really going to be like that.
Most likely it's going to be an adult that is already at its full size and spicy behaviors.
And it's not going to be acclimated to being in captivity like captive bred specimens are.
So I recommend staying away from wild caught specimens. Leave that to the breeders because
they are the ones who are helping the hobby grow and continue, continue flourishing, keeping
those species alive. I do also, like I mentioned before with the post-lithiaria metallica,
that specimen, that species is thriving wonderfully in the hobby. I mean, pretty much any exotic
pet show or any exotic animal dealers here in the States like a reptile, you know, store
or something like that, you will probably find a post-lithiaria metallica. They're pretty
common in the hobby. They're still a little expensive. I have seen some of them being
sold for $250 for a spiderling. And obviously, like, you know, the older they get, like,
the price goes up a little bit just because they are much larger and there's been more
time dedicated to that specific specimen. But yes, captive bred is much, much better
for the hobby all around for sure. Also, it's much, much better for conservation. I know
this is something that a lot of people preach, you know, conservation. What does that actually
mean? Well, conservation means that, like I said before, the more people that are venturing
into the native habitats, then the more those natural habitats are going to disappear. A
really great example of that is Sri Lanka and India. The specimen that have been captured
and brought into the hobby, they over-capture them and over-capitalize on that. And then
they bring them into the hobby and those specimens, you know, they do well, but they're naturally
habitat doesn't anymore. Tarantulas have a very important and key role in nature. They
are part of the ecosystem and the part that they play is actually they are like population
control for other invertebrates. So if you have too many of one invert that say eats
foliage, you know, eats leaves and whatnot, tarantulas actually help to keep them, their
populations lower. So you're not going to have as much of that foliage disappearing
and stuff from that invert that eats the foliage. Here we have catapillars and hornworms, things
like that, that will like just devour plants. And without spiders that catch them and kill
them and eat them, then we would have no foliage. And that is again bad news for that natural
habitat. Let's see, the mantis guardian. Yes, Carrie asked, let's see, are wild caught
more likely to have parasites and how does that risk affect your collection? Yes, wild
caught definitely have a higher chance of having those parasites. And the parasites unfortunately
can be very, very difficult to control and to manage. And so yeah, like entire collections
can be wiped out pretty quickly just due to that fact. Yeah, so and then the mantis
guardian says, let's see, I've seen tubs of mantis niffs come in from African with different
species in them. And that's another invert that definitely can suffer from that wild
caught habit, you know, that poachers might have and stuff is mantises, which in it's
totally, it's honestly unnecessary, you know, like here in the States, we have fear not
tarantulas, we have, you know, micro wilderness and a few others like even even rubber ducky
isopods who we've had on the channel before. Their, their specimen are all captive bred,
or at least most of them are. There are some instances that are like the wild caught does
come in, like I know micro wilderness every now and then will have some wild caught specimen.
But again, they're only doing it to make sure that they diversify that bloodline of those
specific species. Because keeping them that bloodline diversified actually helps also
reduce the chances of bad molts and parasites, all of those things. So it's really, really
better, better for the hobby, better for the world and our environment for captive bred
to be the way to go. Another great example of how this can affect the ecosystems where
you live, I live here in Denver, Colorado. And recently, we had a major problem of deer
being overpopulated and unfortunately deer are, they're not the brightest animals in
the world and they want to cross highways and stuff. And so they get run over by trucks
or they get hit by cars and things like that. And so it can be pretty disastrous for those
creatures. But recently, because of the deer overpopulation, which also leads to disease
within those colonies or those packs of deer and overeating, like so the deer will overeat
and over, overrun the foliage and the plants that are all throughout their natural habitat.
And the reason why they were overpopulating and doing all of those things was because
there weren't a whole lot of natural predators to reduce the amount of deer that are taking
over the habitat, right? We do have mountain lions and black bears, but they can only
do so much. So Colorado reintroduced wolves. They reintroduced wolves into the natural habitat
of the wolves. And those wolves have now helped the deer populations kind of simmer down.
And now we are foliage is also coming back. We're having more trees. We're having better
ecosystem. The air is a lot more clear because of those plants, because they are given that
chance to thrive. Everything kind of works in a balance in ecosystems. And so because
of that, overpoaching and over collecting some of these wild specimens can be very detrimental
to those natural habitats. And deer and wolves are a really great example of that. But when
we're talking about invertebrates, obviously it's going to be much smaller scale than that.
But it still has as big of an impact as those deer and wolves do. So, yeah, so let's see.
Let's go to some comments here. Okay. Well, it looks like you guys are talking with one
another. That's wonderful to see. I love that. If anyone has any other questions, please
feel free to pop them on in there. But there typically is a lot of like controversy around
brown boxing and wild caught specimen entering into the hobby. Most people in the hobby,
I do believe kind of look down on that and are not super fond of those kind of practices.
Like I said, they're very, very bad for the environment. Like, let's say another really
good example of this is when wild caught specimen do come into an environment that is not native
to them or is not normal to them. A really great example of that is Florida. So the state
of Florida here in the United States, they actually are having at this moment a pretty
big issue with Burmese pythons that are overrunning the Everglades. And so because of that, these
very large, very incredible, beautiful snakes, of course, are overrunning the natural habitats
of Florida. And so that means there's more competition for the alligators that also live
there. There's more competition for other predators that are going to prey on the same
prey that the Burmese pythons do. And so we're going to see the effects of that. So alligators
are not going to have as great of a chance of survival because that Burmese python is
just running amok. And we're also seeing a loss of green anoles in Florida, or brown
anoles because green anoles somehow were released and they are an invasive species. And again,
there's too much competition for the food that they need and their sustenance. And so
because of that, we're seeing a loss of that natural specimen in the Florida Everglades.
So those brown anoles, they're a little bit smaller than green anoles. They're not equipped
to have that kind of competition. So unfortunately, they are now like an endangered species. And
we could very well see an extinction event with the brown anoles because of green anoles.
And I'm not saying that every green anole that's in Florida was a wild caught specimen.
This also leads to another thing of irresponsible pet owners who, you know, for whatever reason,
they feel that they can't take care of this animal anymore, or they don't want it, or
maybe they were scared off for some reason. And so they release them into the wild, which
is really, really bad. It's actually a pretty big mistake. So if that ever does occur and
say, you know, you have some hissing cockroaches and they have reproduced so much that you
cannot take care of so many of them, the best thing to do is to find a rescue nearby, or
even a pet store, like the exotic reptile pet stores, they will help, they will take
on that specimen and help you be rid of it, but also not allow it to overrun the native
territories in your area, which is much better. All right, let's see, guys.
I love it. Thank you guys so much for commenting. I really appreciate it. Shady being, Hano,
and the Mantis Garden, you guys are all wonderful. So Carrie also says that I read in a chat
that someone only bought from large corporation pet stores because she thought it ensured
that it wasn't wild caught. Is that an accurate thought? Unfortunately, it is not an accurate
thought. A lot of the big chain pet stores sometimes will have a wild caught specimen.
I know here in the States, we have like Petco and PetSmart, and I don't recommend going to
them for your invertebrate needs or your reptile needs, only because they typically will have
imports that are wild caught specimen. And so for the overall thrive ability or like
the life of that specimen is not going to be as great as it was if they were in the wild.
That's just part of their natural way. So thought making it, I'm not failing. I'm doing
all right, you guys. Yeah, so those big chain pet stores, they don't always go through captive
bred channels. And most of the time when they do have invertebrates in, they are wild caught
specimen. I know right now Mexico is also working on becoming a lot more effective as far as
like tightening their belt with imports and exports because the brocchipelma species that
are native to Mexico are starting to become more and more endangered. And so which also
means that prices of even captive bred specimen here in the States are going to go up just
because of that rarity and that endangered status of that specimen. So it's not great
for the hobby. It's definitely not good for the environment or their natural habitats.
And it's not good for those specific specimens for sure. You guys are so funny. I'm sorry,
I'm not caught up on the comments. But so basically to sum up, wild caught specimen are only reasonable
or justifiable honestly when it comes for the breeders and the main dealers and stuff
who have their specimen of that particular species and that wild caught specimen that
they bring in actually helps to diversify the bloodlines. As I said before, it makes
make sure that those bloodlines are pure and they're kind of clean and it helps to prevent
you know deformities and like egg sacs not being quite as good as they could be. So
try to avoid wild caught specimens as much as you can you guys and always go with captive
bred. I am definitely an advocate for captive bred specimen mainly because of that reason.
Conservation is such a huge thing in this world today. If you think about it too, if you could
just go out in your backyard and collect whatever mantises or you know dragonflies that you wanted,
that means that there's going to be less mantises and less dragonflies in the wild
in your backyard that are going to take care of other pests that you're not really super fond of.
So yeah, I was going to volunteer to help. Oh, I think you, Madness Garden, I appreciate that
trying to do the best that I can at the moment. But yeah, so losing a few bodies, I don't know.
Unfortunately, Nat had another obligation that he was involved in. Oh, hello.
Hello. I've only just got in, Leah. But I've listened to a little bit so far. It sounds like
you're having a really nice conversation at the moment. Yeah, definitely. I think I've had a couple
of pretty decent points there and you know talking about kind of the natural habitats and why
it's not so great for them to be wild caught. But I'm sure you've got a few really great insights
in that. Well, have you covered the topic of just deforestation? So yeah,
so sort of thinking about when we think about the Pokalotharia, for instance, Pokalotharia
Metallica, it's a prime one that they, their numbers are dwindling in the wild and partly
because they are pretty in blue and everyone wants one. So people are going out and poaching them,
which you know, it's not a collection with a permit, it is poaching. So it's something that
we really do need to take on board, isn't it? Because if the wild species of the animals of the
area are taken out, there's no reason to, there's no reason to preserve the natural habitat,
which then gets taken over for extensive farming and things. Though there have been
suggestions recently that they are adapting slightly to living in more built up areas,
but that's not really ideal. And something that I was reading the other day, which was even
which shocked me even more was that it's not just taking the, it's not just taking the specimens
out of the wild, but some people are leaving the specimens there, but taking the egg sacs.
So, and those are the egg sacs that are there to sort of populate and
keep everything going. I can see that Simon was saying it happened a few years ago with the Orchid
Mantis. It became so popular that people were taking ooth from the wild and the population
plummeted. And that's one of the things is everyone wants that new exciting thing, don't they?
Yes, absolutely. Of course. They want that new exciting tranche. I believe that was just a brand
new one that's been discovered in the Amazon. I haven't done any research on it yet,
but everyone's going to want that. Now, we don't know what that population size is. And
it's not just taking it from the wild for it is actually for our selfish benefit, isn't it? So,
I think we would be Marit Marit to say that
that we haven't, no one has dealings with wild culture anchors or mantis or any other invertebrates
because they had to come from somewhere at the very beginning. Shady things also is saying that
it's happening now with the Vietnam silver tarantula that they're taking mom and sacs
from the wild. And that I agree that that can be devastating in that environment.
But also the impact that it's having on the ecosystem themselves, like they're within that
ecosystem within the food chain, and they play a part on that, whether we're taking monkeys or
mantis, it's going to impact. And you might end up with an outbreak of another
more undesirable invertebrate that's maybe eating crops and things when you're taking these things
out of the wild. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think captive bred, there's a lot of benefits to
only purchasing from captive bred. Not only are you going to be supporting a local business to
where you are or like a national business, sometimes they're national, like fear not tarantulas.
But you're going to be supporting that business, but you're also going to be helping
that conservation of that specific species. Because the more captive bred specimen that you buy,
the less that need to be poached from the wild, if that makes sense.
Yeah. And I have to agree with that. It does. However, I always feel there is a slight however
on that. People do want the big adult spider. Yes. So it's like that confidence, isn't it?
So about people having confidence to raise a sling and do that. And lots of people,
I think we're within a culture where we're like, now we want it now and we want this
big, beautiful thing. And actually, for me, the hobbies taught me a lot of patience, actually.
I have lots of tarantulas in my collection at the moment, like the Brazilian blue or,
you know, like electric this and, you know, right. And they're all brown at the moment.
By the Simaroxicorum. Yeah. Yeah. So the Christmas. But, you know, they're all brown at the moment.
And people are like, oh, you know, it is that. And I don't know how we get over that hurdle.
It's difficult because I do think that a lot of beginners come into the hobby and they kind
of think, well, a little tiny thing, you know, they might get one or two little tiny slings
or something like that. And they find it to be very difficult. But it's kind of ironic because
if you are doing that research, if you are kind of following what the hobby does and just kind of
where we go with everything, then it doesn't have to be so difficult. So just kind of keeping up
with that education really, really helps along with the hobby and ensuring that species longevity.
Because if it disappears in the wild, then it's going to disappear from the hobby.
It's just a matter of fact, isn't it? And when we think about breeding,
I could be wrong, Leah, but please do correct me if I'm wrong. But
or the chat as well is I've read that through generational breeding that
they become less fertile as well. So through generations, generations, but I'm not.
No, that actually kind of makes sense because we even see that in canines. You get all these,
like domesticated and, well, they call them designer dogs and whatnot. It's because if you
have a poodle that is pure blood poodle and all these things, eventually those poodles can't
reproduce quite as well as they had when they first kind of showed up. So diversifying those
bloodlines is definitely necessary. But as I said before, I think that it's better left to those
breeders, to the people who are providing those captive bred specimen in the hobby.
Most definitely. And I heard what you were saying before I came on. There is definitely a place
for wild caught with a license, not poaching. It's a lot of people do it to get that done.
I don't know about you, Leah, but I have had people messaging me. So they'd be messaging
some set spiders, Hi, would you like some black tarantulas? Okay, you know, having conversations.
And it's like, yes, I have loads in my village in India. And it's like,
yeah, we can't really do that. Yeah, we're not doing. So it's with a license and things like that.
But I find it very interesting that, say, other invertebrates, such as scorpions and centipedes,
are generally wild cool. I've heard that too. I have heard that. Although I know that there are
quite a few species of like scorpions that are that do really well being captive bred. And
I think the giant Asian forest scorpion is one of them that does really well in captivity. And it
also does really well being captive bred. I know I've seen lots of captive bred specimen here in
the States. I'm not really sure about the UK. But yeah, I mean, some species of scorpion,
I like to think them as kind of like orb weavers, orb weaver spiders don't always do very good in
captivity. So they're kind of just better left alone. But they are gorgeous. And they're beautiful.
It's just we can't really provide them the space and basically the environment that they would
actually really need to thrive. So orb weavers tend to not do very well at all in captivity. So
Kerry's got a very, very good question. Sort of thinking, do you think that
that it can have an opposite effect like where we see invasive species like the Chinese mantis?
And I think there is lots of issues around that, isn't there? About when we're talking about
brown boxing, I'm not sure is this about brown boxing today, Leah? Or is it more wild cool?
It's brown box. I haven't touched brown boxing totally. But yeah, yeah, we got all of it.
I think like smuggling, hey? Yes. So smuggling, you're gonna, there is, there's possibilities
of having invasive species coming into the country. There might be a reason. So if we look at the
border controls in Australia and New Zealand, like that's so strict. They are incredibly strict. Yes.
But there is reasons behind that because it does impact the ecosystem. And
Simon might have something to say on this, but it's a bit like the, I know he's written a book
about hedgehogs. So he might know about squirrels, but it's a bit like in England with the gray and
red squirrels. So the gray squirrels are in an invasive species that have effectively kicked
the red squirrels off the land as such. So and that can be transferred over into,
into invertebrates, can't it? So there's always a battle for resources for food,
all of those sorts of aspects. And when we think about like invasive species, like I don't know
whether brown boxing could increase, it could increase the likelihood of an invasive species,
but that's when you come down to having irresponsible keeper who might release them into the wild.
Like the green and old in Florida actually, and Fermi's Python, you know, a couple of irresponsible
owners and, you know, maybe they just didn't want that specimen for whatever reason. And then they
release it into the wild. And now it has, it has just rendered havoc all throughout that environment,
especially with the green anoles have actually knocked out brown anoles.
And the iguanas as well. Yep, iguanas. Yep. And parrots and things. But I think a very valid
point though is that lots of people don't know that they are breaking the law when they get
something brown boxed to them, because they may not even know it's being brown boxed. So for
instance, I know that in the States, you can only send live animals through UPS, UPS or FedEx,
one of them. FedEx. Yeah. There is a law against sending venomous creatures through your mail system.
So they can't be sent through the post, but you might get sellers who will go, hey, it's a bit
cheaper, I'll send it through the post and it's sort of, but it's when you get people maybe buying
stuff from the States, so they might go on to arachnabourts, for instance. And there might be,
let's pick on a country, let's pick on, I don't know, Spain. There's someone in Spain saying,
I'd ship tarantulas worldwide. And what they'll do is they will just send them through the normal
post system. So there's a couple of risks there, isn't there? So you've got the risk of the animal
dying. Yeah. The risk of Spain to Massachusetts is going to be at least a month or two.
Yeah, exactly. Even if it's air melded over and everything, there is the possibility of
you getting a really big fine for receiving a parcel with animals in that hasn't been declared,
because it has to go through all the right things. There's also the possibility, and it sort of goes
back onto the wildcourt topic as well, there is the possibility of introducing a disease
into your collection. So that could be something like nematodes, let's say. So
right, or a specific kind of parasitic mites. Right, right, right. And who knows, because that,
sometimes you don't know, like those mites could also affect, say it's affecting your tarantula
that you got brown boxed, but it also could affect your reptiles. It could possibly affect your
cats and dogs. So you just don't know what kind of parasites are in there and what could possibly
cause damage. I do know that here, occasionally, we have bananas shipped in from like Costa Rica and
you know, places where the bananas are native. And so along with bananas, we also get little
hitchhikers, like banana spiders or the Brazilian wandering spider. I've heard of these guys coming
into the States only because they were hiding among the bananas. And then boom, there they are.
Yeah, we actually had a local supermarket closed down in the UK just the other day.
I think the headline was quite funny. It was store closed down fear of spider that can
cause permanent erection, which is one of them. I saw that. Yeah. I did see that. Yeah. And I
I was laughing, but I would really like some of my own bananas from that shop, just for the
spider. No, no other reason. We actually do see it on some of the chat groups as people will get
to buy some bananas and they'll have an exact on it. No, no, no spiders, but no exact. But also
if Simon's put a really interesting comment in there is about breeding to a point. So they're
booming in captivity to a point where they can be released back into the wild.
See, and that is that is something that I actually really agree with.
Because that's I almost I wonder if this is something that we could do with the postal
ethereum Metallica because its numbers are so so low. But we have an abundance of them here
in the hobby. And so I always wonder that like, could we take half of a sack and just put it in
the wild? But I'm not sure. Bugs in cyberspace, he does that, doesn't he? I believe so. So
he's one of the sort of he's he's really into sustainability and things and he does
wild cat wild sell wild caught tarantulas. But he has big breeding projects where he releases half
the sack always back into the wild, which I think is brilliant. But he's he's probably not the only
one but in my mind, he's the only one that actually does that who's very vocal about it.
And I think it's a brilliant idea. But I think there is a barrier to it, Leo. And I think the
biggest barrier to it is money. I agree. So when people go, Oh, I've got a sling and I don't know
how much is a how much would a vocal theorem Metallica be for you guys over there? Right now,
it depends on where you go. But usually you can get them for about 150 to 250 for a sling.
Yeah. So that's actually quite a lot. It is. Yes. So when people are doing that. And I have been,
you know, I've been listening to Tom rank quite a lot, as always, in the car. And it just ponders
through my head. Sometimes it's like, is there not anything we can do where there's like a
breeding project where these numbers are dwindling, where we can put them back in. But then then you're
going to have to be thinking about having like a protected area. So we, you know, like a nature
reserve, things like that. Well, in a couple of years, people are just going to take them out
again, which would be an issue possibly. Yes, absolutely. I mean, I think that that for that to
be effective, I think that it would have to be localized. Like so for me here in Colorado,
say I had an Afonapelma hensi, which is a native species here, the best way to kind of help that
would just to do it locally. So if you know, like you in the UK, you guys get those, they're called
lady bird spiders, or they're a type of velvet spider. And they actually were thought to be
extinct until they were found. But because the hobby is what it is, they are pretty abundant,
if you will, in the hobby. And so, you know, say if you had a couple of the lady bird velvet
spiders, you know, it's possible if you had a sack, you could release part of that sack and help those
numbers, if you will. Yeah, yeah. I do it with black widows. And you know, if I find a black
widow or like a jumping spider, I will, you know, if they are already bred or if they're already
like, gravid, then for the most part, I only keep a couple for my own breeding project. But I release
the rest. And I don't really go too far because they're pretty much all over the place. So I have
a couple of jumping spider sacks that I released really close to my home. Because I find them all
the time, all over the place. So yeah, but I think, yeah, and I doubt that you, you know, in your
state, you're lacking of spiders. I think it seems to happen more so as well in more impoverished
areas. So that's when we start thinking about Brazil, Mexico, Sri Lanka, Sri Lanka,
certain parts of India and Europe. So it's, you know, you can see why people do it.
But there's a big craze, they're going to make a quick couple of bucks. I think one of the really,
really big issues with it as well though is they're going around collecting all of these
spiders and by the time they're shipped over, let's say you spend, it doesn't even have any
spiders, mantis as well, anything you put them in, let's say you send 100 items over,
you're going to get about a 30% death rate anyway. Just from the trip alone. From the trip through
stress, dehydration, all those people don't know how to properly pack them. Right. So that's,
that's another thing. I agree. No, definitely. But it's, it's, it's tough out there. I mean, we,
I think the, the more captive bread we can do the better. But I do agree. I think there's a
really great quote that says, desperation is the mother of all crime. So, and when we're talking
about brown, brown boxing and poaching, it is a crime, you know, and so in these, you know,
impoverished places, then, then there is a lot of desperation. So it's, it just kind of leads to
that, unfortunately. So I agree with you. You know, and, and as, as Simon has said as well,
they get a week's worth of wages for an oof. Well, it's an, as he says, it's a no brainer. But I,
I think we just need to be sort of responsible in the hobby and trying to express that we need to,
you know, we need to preserve this hobby. And one, have you touched on why another reason why
brown, wildcourt and brown boxing might be bad if we start thinking about the wildlife federation
agencies and stuff and what they might do? No, I haven't. So, so, so if we were to think about it,
yeah, everyone's going out making, you know, picking up mantis and millipedes, centipedes,
all of this kind of thing and taking them from a country. But it is a crime, as you said, and it
filters into a crime. And like we see it quite a lot with Brazil closing their borders down to any
imports or exports of animals. It happened a bit in Mexico for a while, I believe. Yeah,
next goes to, they are definitely going in that direction. There are, there's a lots of those
restrictions that are getting put down. And then what happens, luckily in Europe, it's not as bad
over here. I know within the states, it is a state by state as well. So some states you're not even
allowed to transfer a pocletharia over state lines. Right. And I believe the postal ethereum, Miranda
is one, and the Vitata, I believe those two are very hard to get your hands on them.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. If they're not within your own state. So. Exactly. And what can happen is you'll
end up just having what you can have in your own state, because also you're going to need a big
spider community within your state to make it worth even breeding a spider. And then so people
are going to stop doing that. And then it's, you know, it's going to dwindle. And, but it's really
hard to sort of measure with the invert hobby, not just tarantulas, but just the invert hobby in
itself growing. It is growing and growing and growing. It's absolutely bonkers how fast it's
growing. Well, the demand is exceeding the supply. Yeah. And so once again, wild caught goes back
to wild caught again, doesn't it? And yes, it's tricky. Absolutely. Yeah. So this is a pretty,
pretty big topic. There's a lot to it. And so yeah, I mean, I'm excited to hear from other people
what they think about it and kind of see if there's, there's ideas of things that we can do within
the hobby that help that conservation and help those specimen in the wild. But yeah, I mean,
it's, it's, it's very dangerous, I think for wild caught specimen, mostly, you know, the parasites,
the habitat loss, the, you don't know exactly how old that specimen is or how, you know, how it has
fared in the wild. You don't know the history behind it. I hear that quite a lot with scorpions,
actually, people will have them and, and they'll pass within six months or, yeah, or so, and they'll
pop it onto a group and people will be like that. You've got sold a really old scorpion,
you don't know how old it is and right, right, right. It feeds into it. Yeah, it's wild. So,
and I believe Simon was saying that the velvet spiders are super protected over there. So
he says that if you actually even touch one, that they're extremely protected. So
yeah, and that makes sense. You know, I do, I do think that all creatures, you know, have a
impact on their environment. They have, you know, a role that they play in their, in their natural
habitat. And so by taking those specimen out of the wild, you are going to be impacting
their role. They're, you're going to be basically limiting their reach. And that can be, you know,
really bad for that ecosystem. Yeah, most definitely. And there are things that we can do as
responsible invert keepers as well. So one of the suggestions would be if you're looking to buy
a spider, a mantis, a vampire crab even, right, ask the seller where, where they're from. So
responsible sellers should be able to tell you where they're from, whether they are captive
bred or wild cool. And they shouldn't have an issue with telling you where they're from either.
Sometimes it's a bit tricky because you might have someone that's bought into an import and
doing that. But generally, they would still know it's the people that are just trying to sell you
stuff. Yeah, over Facebook messenger, when you're writing these messages, I'm actually getting them
at the moment where people going, Oh, my friend bought this off of you, but I think it's a scam,
I don't sell anything. But yeah, it's about just asking those questions. No one really minds if
they're, you know, if they're reputable sellers, they won't mind at all.
Right, right, right. And then, you know, I agree with you on that for sure. If there's somebody
who's out there who has, you know, they're reputable seller, they're doing their captive
bred, you know, they'll be very upfront with that. And they'll be, you know, proud of that. Because I
do agree that that's something that is definitely something to be proud of. But if they are shady
about it, if they're not really forthcoming or if they're just not, you know, then be wary of that,
be wary of that dealer. Absolutely.
It looks like shady things and Simon are, they're talking about buying mantises from one another,
perhaps, I don't know. Wonderful. What a wonderful chat.
So, but if people do want to buy Mantis in the UK, hit Simon up from the Mantis Garden.
From the Mantis Garden. Yeah, he doesn't just sell Mantis, he has many other things and he'll even
sell you a tarantula. He'll probably sell you Liliana's tarantulas to get that house, but
just don't tell her. Right. But Simon, I've had some Mantis from Simon and they're absolutely
fantastic. So, he's a really reputable person to buy them from because he's done live streams of
him actually breeding his Mantis and things so we know where they come from. Just good.
I'm pretty jealous of you guys over in the UK, to be honest, because you have a whole invert show.
Whereas here in the States, it kind of gets lumped in with the reptile expos and shows. And so,
I don't, I'm not sure that invertebrates here are as popular or as like established, if you will,
as they are in the UK. So, I think I know of like one place where you can get really great
captive bred Mantises and that would be usmantis.com and they do captive bred, they have their own.
I know Micro Wilderness does some Mantises too, but yeah, it's tough, it's tricky. It's tricky to
find good ones. Yeah, but you've got, you have got some brilliant sellers and breeders in the States for
for your inverts, haven't you? Absolutely. Yeah. Yep. Love it. Thank you so much for popping
a line. No worries. I was, I was, I think I was drowning. I think you did really well.
Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, no, brilliant. And I'll just do a little plug for anyone that
listens afterwards, but if people wanted to get a tarantula that's not wild cool, they can go to
the spider shop UK and that's thespidershop.com and use code Somerset to get a cheeky little discount.
So, awesome. I wonder if that, does that extend, does that extend here in the US? Because I know
spider shop is here as well. No, so you're, you've got the spider shop, it's got like an extra P or
an extra O in it. Right. This is the spider shop UK. Ah, okay. Yeah. Sorry, two different companies,
two different companies. Yeah. Yeah, they've got like an extra P in the spider shop, I think,
in your space shop. They do, like PPE, something like that. Because the spider shop UK was set up
for the US one. Interesting. I know, I think that we are also, we also still have that 25% off of
Robert Ducky, if you just type in inverted cast 25 at Robert Ducky isopods. Yeah. So, we still have,
we still, I think there's a little bit more time on that one. So, don't forget that. Yeah,
no, absolutely not. Well, thank you, Leah. Absolutely. Thank you, Nat. And thank you,
everyone, for watching. We'll see you guys next week. Bye.