Hello and welcome to Inverted Cast. I'm Nat and today we're joined by Leah from Tarantula
Lears and Logan is going to join us shortly hopefully. How are you doing, Leah?
I'm great. How are you, Nat?
Do you know what? I'm not too bad actually. Big day as I was saying to you off-screen
when we were, you know, it's been the Western Invert Show, one of the biggest
Invert Shows apart from BTS in the UK and it was intense. It was hot, sticky, everyone had
like beads of sweat coming from their heads. No one could get to any tables but it was great.
Awesome. So just sort of recovering from that at the moment.
Wonderful. Yeah, they had lots of soil there, Leah, and I think that's what we're going to be
talking about today, isn't it? Substrate. Yes, substrate and just kind of how we do our
enclosures. How we make them. It's sort of like an open discussion really, isn't it?
I wouldn't say this is a definitive how-to guide because things change
constantly as we know within the hobby. But yeah, I think it's a really interesting topic.
It is. I agree. I totally agree because, well, you do your substrate and your enclosures with
the bioactive. So usually you have life plans. It's semi-bioactive. I wouldn't say it's fully
bioactive. And if we think about the podcast from last week when we were speaking to Brian
from Rubber Ducky Icepods, he was talking really bioactive on the sub microscopic level. Whereas
I think mine look more, they look bioactive, but they do have life plans in them. Yeah.
That's good. I would say that I stay away from icepods within my mix and other sort of life
things, but I do put springtails in. Oh, that's always good. Yes. What about you? What's yours?
Are you a bioactive or what do you do? Actually, no. I'm more naturalistic, but I'm basically
mimicking nature. So I do have kind of like the little synthetic plants and stuff that I buy at
craft stores. And then I will, lately I've been doing little magnets on the leaves and stuff so
that I can just place them on. I've seen they look amazing. It's like amazing little hack there,
really. Yeah. And it works really well because if the tarantula decides to tear apart the enclosure
or tear apart the leaves and whatnot, they can still be used later in like another enclosure
or something. So I am not bioactive, but I will occasionally throw springtails into enclosures
if it's getting, if it seems to be getting kind of mildewy or it's like too moist.
Then those little mats kind of show up. So then I will throw the springtails or
a couple isopods in there just to keep everything kind of balanced. So maybe I'm half and half.
So what are you using? So we could actually start on what is actually available, right?
Yes, absolutely. So cocoa fiber. I think everyone really starts with cocoa fiber, don't they? Or
is it core? People call it core as well. Is that right? No, that's not the right pronunciation.
Maybe. I don't, I know that I use, there's actually quite a few substrates out there. So there's like
a few from like Zilla and, what's the reptile one? It's called reptile, something reptile.
I don't know. XO, oh, it's XO, Xotera. That's the one I think. Oh, the Xotera substrates. Yeah.
Yeah. And then Zilla substrates. And then of course there's BioDude who I'm kind of a fan of BioDude.
He's got some good stuff. But yeah, there's quite a few. And I actually even know people who will get
like potting soil without the pesticides. So you can get potting soil without pesticides.
And so the organic compost and potting soil and everything. So what do you use? What is your
go-to at the moment? At the moment, my go-to is Zilla Jungle Mix Substrate. So it's called
Jungle Mix. I don't really know what that means, but I know that there's little bits of sphagnum
moss and kind of charcoal and just kinds of things that like add texture to the substrate rather than
it just being dirt or, you know, like cocoa fiber. And then you have like twigs and different
detritus in it, like break down. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. So they're really great, really substantial for
those, you know, for isopods and that bioactive enclosures. I just don't plant plants.
So I think with that substrate, you can actually plant live plants into it, can't you?
Yes, I believe so. I think it's recommended to maybe put a potting compost below it. So like a
sublayer and then having that on top. So it's got some areas to root into.
Awesome. Well, when we, if we go back to cocoa fiber, so everyone kind of starts off with cocoa
fiber in the hobby. Yes. I definitely did. I am trying to quit. I go to a cocoa fiber monthly
group and we all stand round saying that, you know, we've given up cocoa fiber and we're now bioactive
and no, I joke. Coco fiber, it's cheap. I don't know if you find it, it's quite a cheap
substrate to get. I agree. I do think that is very cost effective. The only issue with it is that it
is only cocoa fiber. Yeah. For me, that's kind of a pitfall. Like I would rather mix that in with
something else to make it give it that texture like it would have in nature because, you know,
obviously habitats, they're all going to range a little bit, but they all will have, you know,
some leaf litter and little bits of wood or little bits of, you know, moss and stuff like that.
Like dirt isn't just one thing. Do you think the spider knows this though?
I, you know, I think that no, they really do. I don't think they do. I'm not sure they care.
I think with cocoa fiber, it's definitely a really good place to start. And as some of our listeners
have said, using it for things, if you're raising slings, if you're doing quick changes between
some, some people, some people will keep a tarantula. Let's say let's talk about tarantulas,
because that's what me and you are comfortable with. They will start off on a sling pot and
then go straight to the adult enclosure because they want to reduce that. So you might be thinking
you go from cocoa fiber over to whatever substrate you use. I would also say that there's like some
really big influencers within the community, aren't there? So if you're thinking about Petco, Tom Moran,
Richard from the tarantula collective, if you look at their older videos, they use cocoa fiber.
They do. They use cocoa fiber. It has a place. One really good thing I like about cocoa fiber
is that it's light. Yeah, I do like that too. When we're thinking about moving our
enclosures, we're going to do feeding. Some people may not be able to do feeding on the shelf.
My dream would be to have something like Petco's got a nice setup.
Petco's got the dream. When it comes to a critter room, he's got a really great setup. I agree.
I love his shelvings. But one of the main issues and it has been touched on is that
cocoa fiber dries out really fast. So it does dry out really fast and if you're keeping
a humid, dependent tarantula, let's say, it's another job on top of the many other jobs that
we have when we keep spiders. There's also the thing that I've come across quite a lot
is about how it compacts. So we want to make sure, especially because, let's say, for instance,
tarantulas are quite fragile. So if they fall, you will fluff up your cocoa fiber, put it into the
enclosure, the five gallon, ten gallon, whatever exoterra you've got.
And over time, it will slowly shrink and compact. And so that's increasing that height.
But it is very versatile. It can be used. Spiders, tarantulas will use it. Oh yeah.
They can web, they can tunnel in it. So and when you, lots of people aren't aware of this, but
when you look like you're taking one of those enclosures apart, you'll get a tube of silk come out
and it'll be what's supporting that cocoa fiber so they can have that. So it definitely has that,
but it benefits are as well, is that it doesn't mold easy. It does mold, but it doesn't mold.
Not very easy. It's definitely something because it's not so full of bioactiveness, I suppose.
True. I agree. Well, and that's actually one of the reasons that I use the Zilla jungle mix
is because I have found that that is, it's relatively light. It's similar to cocoa fiber,
but it also allows for those burrows and it keeps moisture a little better than the cocoa fiber does.
And for me, that's kind of a huge issue just because I live here in Colorado.
So we're at high altitude. So the air up here is a lot thinner, which means that moisture is just
sucked right out of the air really quickly. So for my moisture dependent tarantulas,
I don't, like I said, don't like to use cocoa fiber a whole lot just because of that moisture
side of everything. So with what I use, it keeps moisture really well. Like,
let me see if I can find, so this is my Trinidad pink. It's the cereal cosmos longa peas.
And you can see that it, there's like a layer that is just maintained that moisture
because this is, you know, another tarantula that definitely depends on that moisture.
So that's another reason I really like this is because I can see just how,
how much humidity or how much moisture is still in there. Yeah, so it makes sense to me for that.
But I do like cocoa fiber. I do think it's like if the tarantulas burrow like caves in somehow or
like just kind of crumbles down the cocoa, it's not going to hurt the tarantula as badly. Yeah.
You know, yeah, I think also a negative with it as well is it's positive. First of all,
let's go with a positive. It's really easy to store because it comes in those little pucks or
the bricks and things. Yeah, the flip side of that though, the negative is the preparation time.
So if you have to soak it and you're not going to want to put freshly soaked
cocoa fiber into an enclosure, you want to leave it for a day or so to evaporate off a little bit.
So that's, I would say that that's kind of another negative. But as we're talking about substrate,
I think we've definitely come on leaps and bounds, especially I would say over the last 10 years.
Oh, absolutely. Compared to maybe how we were keeping inverts before. So there's definitely
something to be said that back in the day and it's so back in the day and not saying that it's wrong.
But how tarantulas used to be kept on for myculite. I know there's probably people
listening to this to probably still keep their tarantulas on for myculite.
I'm sure for myculite is still very useful for a lot of, you know, invertekeepers and stuff.
I have never used it personally. So I really don't know. Sorry.
No, no, no, no, I was listening. I was agreeing with you.
Oh, okay. Yeah. I mean, I haven't used it, but I do know that for myculite, the reason that they
did use it was because it was really great at maintaining that moisture. As far as I know,
like that's kind of why a lot of people really liked it. And that was just kind of the go to thing,
you know, 10, 15 years ago. And then also orc bark chippings. There we go. I got that out.
Orc bark chip. You'll see people that still keep their spiders on that. And
well, when we need to try and understand is why that is. And I think going back 10 years, okay,
you didn't have such brilliant tarantula dealers about back then. So you would go to your local
pet shop. We'll keep a OBT that say, just for argument's sake, on orc bark chippings. The
reason why they're doing that is because they want the spider to be out and be visible. So,
but you, you learn through visual things. And if that's how the pet shop keeps it, that's how
you're going to keep it. And, you know, we could then go into like red light bulbs and things,
but we won't talk about that today. But you will. And it's in, it's in a lot of the literature and a
lot of YouTube videos, old YouTube videos, you might get a YouTube video that's got, let's say,
a million views, but it's been out for 10 years. So we need to really think about that math side
of things that is going to have more views. It's going to be there. It doesn't necessarily mean
that it's correct. Well, and that's one thing that I really like about our hobby. And that's
what makes this podcast so wonderful is that we're always changing. We're always learning. We're,
you know, developing new skills. We're, we're seeing things that weren't working before.
And we tweak them, tweak and peak, as they say, and fix it and make it work better.
And so, yeah, I agree. Like some of some videos from, you know, five, 10 years ago are not always
going to be the best information, like for now. No, no. And that translates over to loads of stuff,
doesn't it? Within the real world. So, absolutely. But talking about the vermiculite side of things,
I've, I've been informed recently. I can't remember who it is. I think it might be through
tarantula ramblings. We were talking about vermiculite, vermiculite in substrate and talking
about mold and different outbreaks, because also mold is like a really fearful thing. It's not nice
to look at. No, you're worried if it's going to affect your spider in some way. Right. There is
definitely a concern of that. Well, I do believe that it does. I think mold actually can attract
those parasites that we really don't want coming into our enclosures and get into those tarantulas,
because, you know, mites is one thing. We can do something about mites. Yeah. But when we're talking
about like nematodes or, you know, that kind of parasite, where there's nothing you could do about
it. And it's the worst. Yeah. Yeah. So vermiculite can, so what tarantula ramblings was telling,
telling me the other week is that it reduces mold outbreaks within the substrate, which I
really want to go and start looking into. I was thinking of doing a side by side experiment,
having two empty enclosures, same soil, but one of them having vermiculite in and one of them not.
And just topping them up with water and seeing which one, if any, mold up first. Yeah. And just
sort of like having a look, having a look at that. I think when we think about substrates and things,
I think that's like a really important thing as well is about think about what works for you,
right? Right. And what's available. So peat moss, do you use peat moss in the States?
I do believe we do. I think that we do have some peat moss. Me, I'm a big fan of sphagnum moss
for the New Zealand sphagnum moss. And I haven't quite, I don't believe I've used peat moss.
So peat moss isn't actually a moss. It is like a soil. Oh, right. We call it peat moss.
Okay. I'm just googling it for a second. I think it's actually part of the mix that I use in the
jungle mix. I think that there is a little bit of peat moss in the... Yeah. So I know within the UK,
they are trying to reduce the use of peat moss due to where it's farmed from. So from the peat
oaks and how it's impacting on the natural ecosphere as such in that area. See, I didn't know
that. Thank you for importing me. But talk about sphagnum moss. Oh, you say it, Leah. Say it for me.
Which one? The sphagnum moss. There we go. Yeah. Thank you. Oh, I'm so tired. But talking about that,
it's a really good resource to use. Absolutely. It's one we think about humidity and creating those
humid pockets within the substrate. Definitely. And that can be used for within all sorts of inverts.
So everything about millipedes and rice pods, burrowing beetles, everything. It's such a good
a good way to keep it, keep the soil active, I suppose. Absolutely. Yeah, I agree. I really
like sphagnum moss. I feel like it really holds that moisture. Again, I'm all about that, keeping
the moisture in. And it also kind of makes the enclosure like if you put it in just on its own,
it actually looks really great. It looks very natural. It does. Do you get colored? Do you get
dyed moss where you are? Or is it natural? I think most of it is very natural. We do get this green,
like grassy type moss stuff that is really nice, but it's green. So I would assume that's probably
the natural color of it. But as far as dyed stuff, I haven't seen any dyed stuff. And I'm not sure
that would be super beneficial anyhow. No, I know that some rep, so out of the invert world,
but more in the reptile world, they do have lots of like dyed moss for the enclosures and things.
And I've heard stories of how the dyed moss, if the animals eat it, they can take on the color,
not inverts, but reptiles. Like reptiles, yeah. Because of the dyes in it. But that's a really
good way to keep that moisture level up for sure. Absolutely. It's like mixing that in there.
What about any of your arid tarantulas? Do you reckon it's all right to keep your arid tarantulas
on sand, let's say? Yes, like kind of a mixture of the whatever substrate you use, so like the
cocoa fiber. And then if you put a little sand in there, I think that's okay too.
Yeah. You know, just keep a nice light mixture for it. It's about actually having a mix, isn't it?
I don't think there, if we were to think about like the six-eyed sand spider, yes, that's that sand.
And yeah, you definitely want, sorry, I apologize. No, no, no, no, no. You definitely want sand to
be the primary substrate for that, for that invert for sure. Like any invert that is, you know, from
a desert or like uses the sand for some purpose, then you're definitely going to want that sand.
But for most tarantulas, and in my experience, the sand is not great all on its own for tarantulas.
Because it can actually be really abrasive to their arms and their legs and their bodies,
basically, their exoskeletons. So, mixing it in is always good.
And if we say, for instance, we look at the Afonopalma calcodes, they don't nest in a
sand dune as such. I know they come from a very arid space, but you'll find their burrows in the
root systems of plants and trees, where there's a bit more substance and it's not sand.
When we're thinking about that. But if you were to be, so if you were to be keeping
your inverts on a, let's say, arid substrate, what's your go-to, Lea?
Yeah. For an arid substrate, definitely, see again, I would go with the jungle mix,
but I would definitely mix a little bit of sand in that. And probably some, we have like little
wood chip type things, or like, I believe, what are they called, cypress mulch. If you take a
little bit of the cypress mulch and put that in the substrate, that also makes for a really nice,
like arid kind of feeling substrate. And it works really well for the tarantulas, because again,
it adds that texture, and then it's not only like the sand and the substrate, if that makes sense.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that makes total sense. And I think it's about having those little bits
of detritus in there and stuff, especially for animals that are creating a den and doing stuff.
I suppose if we were to be thinking about, let's say, let's think about mantis. Substrates are
not really important for them, is it? I think it can be, but no, not really. They like to hang out
on leaves and branches and whatnot. Absolutely. I think if I was to be thinking about substrate
within my enclosures for my mantis, even though mine's like free roaming somewhere in the flat,
I'm not sure where he is at the moment, but he's definitely around somewhere.
That's great. Yeah, every now and again, I'll be looking for him, and I'll just be like, where is he?
And it clicks, and he'll be where the, I keep all my live food, and he'll be like on the side of the
container, I'm like, okay, so you're hungry, right? That's all about. I find keeping substrate in with
my mantis really important. So I put a good inch or so at the bottom, cover it with moss, and it
helps that humidity again. I think one of the really good things about, one of the really
important things, not one of the good things, one of the really important things about substrate
is that it holds that humidity. Even if we have a dry and arid, or what we would say
from the Afonopelma family, they come from quite an arid climate, but they will burrow,
and they're burrowing because they're trying to find that moisture,
they're trying to regulate and find that spot. Not so much with the Balfoury,
the Socrata Island Blue Baboon Trantula, but within their webcastle, let's say if we're
keeping a communal one, they once again, they do have like this little pockets of humidity in there
as well. So, but I think what I find sometimes is when you maybe, when you maybe first think about
an arid species who suddenly think like no moisture, sand, dry, well actually,
yeah Sahara Desert, or Death Valley, you know what the word is. Yeah, like it will survive there.
Well actually, I think we really need to think about adding that humidity because there are
spikes in areas. Definitely. You get humidity in the morning, don't you with the morning dew and
stuff. Certainly, like this the southeast region of the United States is actually kind of kind of
crazy because it goes from one extreme to another throughout the day cycle. So,
you know, like you were saying with Death Valley, it can get up to 112 or so degrees
in the daytime in the summer, and then it'll drop down to 40, 50 in the evenings in the nighttime.
So, yeah, definitely there is moisture in these areas, and it does, you know, I agree with you
that the tarantulas will burrow and they're seeking out that moisture. They're seeking out like a
cooler spot because, you know, you and I both know we don't want our tarantulas in direct sunlight
because it really, it fries them, you know. So, when they burrow, that's essentially what they're
doing is they're absolutely searching for that moisture. So, yeah, I do think, I think even
for mantises, like you said, substrate can be very, very important for those humidity levels.
Like the orchid mantis is a tropical species. They're from Malaysia, or yeah, they're from Malaysia.
So, they need a lot of humidity. They need about 70 to 80 percent humidity. So, that's,
and that's how you achieve it is through your substrate. So, I think it's really important to
talk about the, you know, the best methods of mixing your substrate and what to use for that. So,
that's good. Do you have like a, if you were to mix up your substrate, do you have a best method?
You may have just walked into that by saying that. I did, didn't I?
If you have anything like a certain recipe or anything that you use?
Somewhat. I mean, I kind of go by what the tarantula, what the invert needs. So, if, like I said,
if it's one of those high humidity, you know, very moisture dependent species, then I'm going to use
a little more of my, the jungle mix than I would cocoa fiber or sand or anything like that. So,
I would use a lot more of that and then probably a bit of cocoa fiber because it does help to
keep that moisture in there. So, I would mix that pretty good. Maybe about like about a 70-30 mix.
Right, yeah. Yeah. But if we're talking about like, you know, the monocentropus belflory,
then it would probably just be more of a, like a 40-60 mix.
Yeah. So, you'd be going a bit more dry on that. I would definitely agree with you on that.
The belflory communal that I got recently, I was trying to look into that and I was thinking about
getting the arid earth kit from ZoomEd. I think it's ZoomEd that do that where you can effectively
make tunnels and stuff. Awesome. Excavator clay, that's what I was looking for. That's it. Yes.
I know Richard uses that and Petco and yeah. Yeah. They've all sort of like had a bash at that,
haven't they? Yeah. And then over here, in the UK, we were, I was discussing it with some of the other
keepers and I was recommended the Arcadia arid earth, which is a really nice substrate. However,
when it arrived, it was quite moist, which I thought was quite surprising. Things that was meant to
be arid earth. Yeah, that's a good thing. So, with that as well, I just added some more sand to it.
And as you say, it's about, I think you learn as you go along, don't you? Yes. What's going to work
for those specific species? Not everything's going to work. You can't just have one. You can just
have one. Yeah. You can. Yeah. Your invert, no matter what it is, might just survive and not
thrive though. Right. They might just do. Right. It would be like that bare minimum, you know. Yeah.
It would be going back to keeping them on vermiculite or just watered by our core or just pure sand.
I can't remember which video it was and I wouldn't name and shame anyway, but
no worries. I remember seeing an old one where, you know, keeping a praki palma humari on white sand.
Oh, wow. Looks lovely. Looks absolutely stunning. Sure. It was awesome. But that spider is not loving life.
No. They need that opportunity to even be able to burrow and with sand, it's too heavy. Their burrows
cave in for them. It's just not so great. No. No. But it might work if you're thinking about having
something like a Desert Heri Scorpion or a June Scorpion, that kind of thing. But even then,
you're going to want to mix a little bit of cocoa core in when you're doing that.
So yeah, have you got anything, your last rehouse? What have you been doing?
Because it's sort of on the substrate talk. Okay. Actually, yeah, I just rehoused in my upcoming,
my next video that I'll be releasing on my channel will be a Seriopagus Levitum. So the
Cobalt Blue Tarantula. And so the substrate that I used, you know, this is a tarantula that comes
from Thailand, Myanmar. So that whole region is very, very moist. It's a tropical region,
although they do have a couple of arid plateau areas. So for mine, I used that jungle mix,
like I said, and then I basically mixed in a little bit of wood chips and whatnot,
just to add that texture. But as far as the whole enclosure goes, that's pretty much all I did.
I made nice, nice deep substrate and a little beginner burrow and she got in there good.
Actually, this video is going to be really funny. I think you'll like it.
Good, really? Okay. Well, it better be funny because you've said it's pretty funny. So I'm
going to be a while, took me a while to get her into a new enclosure because she was she well,
she was very spicy when she finally came out. But she hid so well from me, I had to actually
dig her out. It really sucked. And I was nervous. And so yeah, yeah, well, yeah, I, I've just so
well, you said something actually quite poignant. Oh, that I wanted to touch upon actually is you
said about adding depth. So myself, I have just rehoused three for sorio tracholas. Oh yeah.
So I can crack in two of them. I've rehoused and sorry, I'm common names today. I'm generally
common names anyway. That's the smokey or tiger. Yeah. Yeah. And the Java fury. Oh, that's going
to bug me. It was something she had to anyway, it'll come to me. And for them, I actually use quite
a wet mix. Absolutely. Not not sopping wet, but you know, wet down one like a damp mix and then
wet down one corner. But it goes back to the conversation we were when we were talking about
when you would go to a pet shop and you would see that spider, or maybe like a half inch of substrate
things. And when we think about keeping keeping our inverts, whether they are tarantulas, isopods,
things that maybe we would class as terrestrial. They actually bless you.
For those listening, that was Leah's lovely partner having a seat. That was my partner.
So, but actually even things that are terrestrial, though they may not be obligated borrowers,
and that can go for, you know, it's not just about tarantulas. To give them the option to do
that, you'll actually find the natural behavior is they will borrow at some point, somewhere,
and doing that. And Petco actually did a really good video of one of his
tarantulas where he made like the six foot container. If you've seen that one where he makes
an enclosure really deep for one of his fissorial tarantulas, it may not be six foot,
it might be about four and a half foot, five foot, and it borrowed all the way down to the bottom.
Oh my goodness. And when we think about it, we don't have to do that for our tarantulas. So
people that are listening, please do not go out. Well, if you can, if you want.
But I mean, you can, but it's about giving them enough.
It's about giving them enough opportunity. And hold on, Leigh. I think the door is just knocked
a second. Sorry. Oh, it's Dorothy. Dorothy was at the door. Hello, Dorothy. How are you doing?
Hi. Good. How are you guys? Yeah, not too bad. We're just chatting dirt, really.
Dirt is substrate and substrate. So different, different. I like dirt. We've got a few jars
of dirt, you know. Yeah, this is you. Yeah. It's a hobby, isn't it? What is your go to mix for
substrate? Like, what do you like to use? Because we were talking about, you know, cocoa fiber and
the vermiculite of olden leaves. Go ahead. I do not like cocoa fiber. It's the old way to easily.
It's not my favorite. I tried a homemade mix and it was okay-ish. I mixed, you know, an OMRI
certified topsoil with play sand and excavator clay, you know, give it that structure. But it
actually molded really bad one day. Like all of a sudden, one of my Armenian closures was really
bad. And I didn't have any more of my mix on hand. So I quickly went on to the Petco and I ordered
some reptile soil, actually. And I had never tried it before. But now that I've tried it, I'm like,
this is actually kind of amazing. So I think what Dorothy's saying is actually really
interesting, though, is that maybe sometimes we try to save a buck. And we make our own mixes
and doing things. But sometimes off the shelf stuff. We're just saying about how sometimes we
can be like, oh, we're going to make a mix and it's going to be it's cheap. It's going to be affordable.
But then sometimes you can just buy something off the shelf and it works. Right.
Yeah. Yeah. People listening, Dorothy's nodding. That is one thing that I love about the jungle
mixes because I can use only that and it works just as well as if I mixed it in with something else.
You know, so. Yeah, we I use spider life. I'm still waiting for them to contact me. So
they'll sponsor me. But you know, it's not going to happen. It's not going to happen.
It's not going to happen. It's going to happen. It's going to happen. It's going to happen. It's
going to happen. But you can only hope. I haven't had any issues with spider life. It's great.
It's a really good, robust substrate and it's really malleable in a sense as you can let it dry
out and it's perfect for those arid kind of enclosures or it holds moisture really well because
it's got loads of bits of biologicals that break down and hold the moisture. So,
so it you know, it's fascinating. And just before you came on, Dorothy, we were talking about
allowing deep substrate for our our our animals. What are your thoughts on that? Are you are a
proponent of that or you know? I I feel like it's really important to assess the needs of your
specific animal because I have a lot of the same species, but each of them exhibit different
behaviors. Like I have multiple psalmopetus hermeneus, right? And a lot of them exhibit
different behaviors. And so I think it's really important that if your tarantula is if you've
noticed that your tarantula likes to burrow more, you should definitely give them more substrate.
Even if they're technically in a boreal because psalmose like to make a little dirt curtain. And
one of mine really likes to make an an opening at the bottom in the corner of the cork bark.
And I've noticed that she really likes to burrow down a little bit. So I gave her a little bit of
extra substrate. But one of my other ones, she's always up. She's at the top. She doesn't care
about the dirt. She doesn't touch the dirt. Dirt is bad, you know? So I think it's really
important that you assess the needs of your specific animal and watch their behaviors. And
like even though you know, I I love that we have the classification of a boreal terrestrial
fossorial. But I feel like there are more like subcategories than that. Yeah. Like, yeah, I agree.
I feel like it's just it's really important to know, you know, your animal. And if you notice
something that you need to change in there, definitely, you know, make the changes, make it
more comfortable for them so that, you know, your animal is comfortable, it'll make you more
comfortable. And the proper enclosure will prevent a lot of problems, accidents, escapes,
all that other good stuff. So it's really important that you know your animal.
It also prevents a lot of that defensive behavior we see as well. So by giving them that opportunity
to burrow, to escape in a good substrate that holds, that holds its shape, you're gonna have a more happy
tarantula if we're talking about tarantulas. Absolutely. It's the same for all other inverts
as well. I think sometimes you'll have people or people will have inverts, sorry. And they may not
be that the expensive one, the 300 pound one and things. And so they may not get the same sort of
level as care and things. But I think it's really important to do that for all of them,
to give them all that opportunity to thrive really within it. What are your thoughts, Dorothy, on
bioactive? I personally am a big fan of bioactive, but I wish that I had the patience
and the time and the energy and the effort to do it for all of my spiders. Some of them are bioactive,
some of them are not. The bioactive enclosure is definitely like I don't really have a lot of
problems with mold or anything else in those enclosures specifically. I mean, you don't really
have a lot of mold problems. But once I switched over some of my spiders to bioactive, I realized
that it was a lot less maintenance for me. And although it might be more work in the beginning,
I feel like it creates a more productive environment for them to not just survive but
thrive. So I'm definitely a fan of bioactive. But if someone wants to come do it, I will come
pay you to do it. I will get my plane ticket and I will come on over. But I think it's definitely,
like you said, there is a lot of work at the beginning. But I think the majority of the work
is gaining an understanding of how it works. Once you've gained that understanding of how it
works, it's actually quite easy, especially if you have your pathos growing, ready to go in and all
the equipment there ready to go. But is the juice worth the squeeze at the beginning? And about
getting that understanding, you're not going to have a bioactive with cocoa fiber. It needs to be
natural. You can mix cocoa fiber into it. And I have seen bioactives with that in it.
But you're really going to have to start thinking about that naturalistic side of things and what
animals can go within the soils to help it go. Brian talked about some brilliant stuff on last
week's podcast. When he was talking about having composted worms and the layers and the different
aspects, I might look into doing one enclosure with composting worms in and see how that
goes. I think it would be a really good food source, especially for fissorial tarantulas.
There's a big argument at the moment around the, I know we shouldn't dig out our fissorial tarantulas.
You haven't seen them for a long time, though there becomes a point as a keeper where you're
like, I really should. Tom Moran actually talks about the only time he's ever dropped
an injury cricket down a tunnel was when he saw that effectively his tarantula was starving,
but not coming up. But in the wild, they probably wouldn't be starving because they would be eating
the animals that are living in the soil that are coming out into their tunnels and stuff.
So yeah, I think it would be a really interesting thing. However, you're going to want to make sure
that the composting worms don't take over. So I have kind of a question as far as that goes,
with the bioactive enclosures, would it be smarter maybe to set up an enclosure maybe
like one or two weeks before you actually put your invert into it? Absolutely. Is that like the
recommended? Yeah, what I tend to do is I'll have it set up for a month. Okay. Or if not,
I'll have it really planned out about what I'm going to do. Nice. Okay. The internet only see
a very small part of what I do. So the videos I put on, I might make a quick or it has to be a
rehouse because I had a feather leg that was on cocoa fiber and the s-calciton. And I just wanted
to get it into something a bit more natural. I don't know about you, Dorothy. Do you leave it
for a couple of weeks before putting something in there? What do you do? Yeah, I like to set it up
and let it hang out for a little bit because obviously, a lot of my tarantulas have come to me
in ways that aren't exactly traditional. Like a lot of mine were, people weren't comfortable taking
care of them. So some of mine have been kind of last minute. But if you know your tarantula is
coming, you can definitely set it up beforehand especially. And when you're rehousing, obviously,
a rehouse is probably going to come. Those ones are easier to predict. So I mean, if you see,
you're like, oh, my next rehouse is coming up. And if you keep track of the mulch and stuff,
like I use an app, you can kind of guess to me. I mean, obviously, it's not an exact science because
you can never really guess when they're going to mulch. But you can definitely have things set up
and ready to go. And especially with the bioactive, I think it's really important to make sure that
it's well established because you don't want to be reaching in there and fixing the plant because,
you know, it's, you know, you don't want to stick your hands in there with the spider in there.
I mean, you can. I mean, I have to, but I would recommend it. Yeah, it's not recommended. You can.
Yeah. How well you know your tarantula. That's like you said, Dorothy, I agree with you on that.
Like how well do you know your spider? And, you know, over time, you kind of are able to observe
those predictable behaviors or, you know, whatever inverted is, because I do also have some assassin
bugs and they are also venomous. I was so close in getting some today. Oh, they're amazing. And I didn't.
But anyway. But also another tip, Leah, just, yeah, top topic when you're asking about setting
it up, the something that I found really useful, and it's something so obvious,
it's going to sound, oh, that's obvious. And that why are you saying that? I have an alarm that goes
off every Friday when I get home from work that tells me to water my plants. So lots of people
fail at growing bioactive enclosures with plants and because they forget to water the plants,
they're concentrating on maybe the inverts are in there, and they're not doing it. And you have to be,
it's just sort of staying on top of it. And after I start, because I had lost a couple of
those enclosures that I was trying to set up, or they've set up and the plants die in it.
It's like, oh, frustrating. You've spent money on those plants that you're putting in and you
think, oh, well, I can keep a spider alive or a praying mantis, but I can't keep a plant alive.
What's that about? Right. But you're so focused on looking after the creature that's in there,
you're not thinking about the bigger thing. So just to have that little reminder to be like,
hey, you need to water your plants. So it goes off and I go around and water it. And it's not on the
same day, because I feed all of my animals on a Saturday or Sunday. Okay. The plant waterings on
a Friday, just so it's different. So it's a different task, a different thing to focus on.
And you know that it's done it. And since doing that, I've been a lot more successful in keeping
them alive. Wonderful. But also some of them, they like humidity. So maybe if for people that are
starting off doing it, just use a Pothos, because they're hardy, they're generally good. I have
killed one in an enclosure, but I believe. Yeah, I know, right, Dorothy? So that's impressive.
The Mantis Garden suggested Ivy to me. Is that also another plant that is hardy and
Ivy? Absolutely. Yeah, Ivy is a good, hardy one, especially if you want like a creeper.
If you've got something going up the cork bark or things like that. And there's other creeper plants
that are really good as well, which will be good. I'll send you a list of some ones that I found.
I would love that. Absolutely. Yeah. What about you, Dorothy? Do you have like a go-to plant for
your bioactive enclosures? I really like Pothos, but I also really like Tritoscantia.
They're kind of like a creeping plant, you know, definitely for the bottom. But they grow really
well, especially the pistachio white Tritoscantia. It just grows like mad and it's easy to just trim,
propagate, put some more in there, you know, and I like being able to reproduce from my own plant,
because one thing that I have to be really careful about, like when you're getting plants for a
bioactive enclosure is to make sure, you know, there's no pesticides or, you know, like the soil,
like where you're sourcing your plants from. That's kind of like what I like to do with my
feeders. Like I'll get one thing of feeders and then I've just taken them and then I've made them
reproduce so that I have my own, you know, my own thing going on so that I don't have to, oh, what's
the pesticide? Like how is this being taken care of? Like, you know, are they using a myticide or
anything else? You know, there's a lot of things that you have to be mindful about when you are
choosing plants for a bioactive enclosure. So that's why I like things that I can propagate myself
from my own plants and to like just to reproduce on my own instead of relying on outside sources,
which I mean, it's really great to, you know, like I know that there are a lot of people who have
like plants that are safe, like that are available. I know the bio dude used to have plants. I don't
know if he still does, but I think Josh's Frogs also has plants. Yeah, Josh's Frogs definitely does.
Yeah, still doing that. And just very quickly, before we get to the end of the podcast is,
so you talk, you touched on like pest pesticides and different sorts of things. So it's, it's very
tempting to just go out into the back garden and dig up soil to use within your enclosures.
Now, I would strongly advise anyone that's listening to this to do that, unless you are going
deep into the wilderness to dig it up, to avoid pesticides, but then also we do have the problem
with nematodes when we're thinking about in the tarantula hobby. So you are better off getting it
from a tarantula substrate maker or someone within the pet world. However, you can still get bad
substrate. So it's just something to be very mindful of when we are thinking about that.
And when that sort of goes on to the idea as well of collecting moss and sticks and different things,
bark and things from, from the wild, lots of people boil it. Do you boil it or cook it in the oven?
Cook it in the oven. Yeah. 200 degrees Fahrenheit, 20 minutes. Yeah, boil it and bake it. Yeah,
boil it and bake it. It's good, you know, you've got to make sure. Or freeze, I'll freeze things
like leaves, like if I get like a flitter and stuff, I freeze it and then I'll bake it so that, you
know, I've freeze everything that's on it and then I fry anything that's left. Oh, I thought I was
losing the plot the other year. I collected all the leaves, stuck them all in the freezer, boiled
them and then baked them just to be sure, you know, and it was lovely. But it's definitely
a process, but also something we do need to be aware of as well as pollution when doing that. So
if you're going to be collecting that kind of thing for your bioactive substrate, for your soil,
for your enclosures, it's about doing it as far away from the road as you possibly can as well.
So especially when we're collecting leaf litter and things because it's just going to be better.
I usually only do that for my rescues. I call them my rescues because they're native species to
where I live, obviously, but, you know, I'll have friends and relatives who will be like,
hey, I've got this black widow. I don't know what to do with it. Will you come get it? So usually,
I'll use like substrate from, you know, here, obviously, or outside and whatnot. I only use
them for my native species. So I'm not. Well, they've kind of been out there. They've been outside,
haven't they? Yeah, there is. Like this girl. Sorry, this is my little or weaver.
Okay. Yeah, she's just a little juvenile, but I rescued her from a friend's car. And so, you know,
I actually used a couple of sticks from outside in her enclosure. That way she has anchor points
and stuff. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, brilliant. So sorry. We, we, no, no, no, that was, I've never
really thought about that. We don't really, we don't really have lots of really cool spiders.
Well, we have got cool spiders. You do. You have all the spiders. Yeah. But I just go out and be
like, oh, I'm going to rescue it. I think maybe we're just like really, we're really used to it
in the UK as well. Like our spiders look quite similar. We're not all. Okay. Some of them.
So we're coming to the end and it is the shameless plug section of Inverted Cast. We do like a
shameless plug. Usually it's a time where the hosts get to say about their social medias and
different things. And Dorothy, I don't know, would you like to shamelessly plug yourself?
Sure. Yeah. Well, you can find me on Instagram,
I'm also on the TikTok, as the kids say, you know,
and my username on TikTok is the Salmo Queen. So if you want to see any spider or other invert
content, I really bit slack on posting, but I recently rescued a seawater grossa outside of
False Widow and she is so cute. So I need to make a post about her. So if you want to see more about
her, you're going to have to check out my social media. I also make enclosures. So if anyone wants
a custom enclosure, they're anywhere from $35 to $45. I try to not charge a lot. I use USPS Flat
Rate Chipping. They're super easy. I have assembly videos on my TikTok and on my Instagram if you
want to see. They're really affordable way to have a nice enclosure and I was really picky. I'm a DIY
queen. So if you want an enclosure, let me know. Hit me up on Instagram, TikTok, anything.
Instagram again?
Bougi Becna. Can you spell my full list? Yeah, B-O-U-J-E-E-V-E-C-N-A. So you can find me on Instagram
and then TikTok is the sound low queen. So yeah, that's our shameless plug and also
bringing it back because I love Amy from Fang Hub by Trance Loves from Fang Hub.
Yes. Dorothy, I do love your enclosures. I gotta say, I think they're spot on.
Have you got an Etsy shop as well yet?
No, I do not. I just do it. I have a Google Doc that people fill out. It's just me
making these enclosures for fun. But Etsy is not a bad idea.
Well, that's actually really nice that you make it custom as well, which I think is really important
to people's taste. Leah, have you got a shameless plug for today?
Absolutely. I've got Tarantula on YouTube, Tarantula on TikTok, Instagram. I have a
re-housing video coming up of a very spicy cereal because Levitum. So stay tuned for that.
And that's about all I've got. And of course, Fang Hub, Tarantulas, Eight Paws, Tarantulas.
I love these guys. They're all really wonderful. I think there's another one.
Daenerys' mother of spiders is she's kind of up and coming. She's really, really getting popular.
So check that one out as well if you're in the US. I'll have to check that out.
Yeah. I'll just check it out. I can't get it. I'll just check them out.
Absolutely. Cool. And yes, I do have a shameless plug as always.
We're going to do an unshameless plug. So first of all, if anyone listened to
the Rubber Ducky isopod episode, it has been edited to make it child-friendly.
But at the end, you are going to find a brilliant discount code, which is InverterCast25.
And it goes on for the rest of this month, the rest middle of next month, sorry,
where you can get up to 25% off of all isopods on their store in the US. So go check them out.
And you can also get a discount on the Spider Shop in the UK using the discount code Somerset.
That is my discount code and people have been using it and it's brilliant.
So for those who didn't go to the Inverter Show today, get over there and go and get yourself
some spiders because you need them and use discount code Somerset to get a really good
discount on there. And I am on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok. I don't know how to use TikTok,
but I am on it. And yeah, go over to my YouTube channel and subscribe. And don't forget
for everyone to subscribe to all the presenters on this podcast. It means the world to us to have
you guys watching us, listening us. And yeah, thank you all for listening. Oh, there goes Dorothy.
Oh, she went. Oh no. She's gone. Thank you all for listening. Thank you, Leah. It was lovely as always.
Yes, you as well. Now, thanks so much. Okay. It was fun. I love talking about dirt.