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Pretty cool intro music.

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Thanks, man.

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Hey, everyone. Welcome to Cryptic Cocktail Party, a show where we have a few drinks,

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share a few laughs and take a dive into the unknown. Today I'm joined by Mike Waddell,

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creator and CEO of Metazoo. How you doing, man?

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Not bad. Thank you for having me. I apologize for missing our scheduled meeting yesterday,

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but I'm glad that we could do this on Sunday.

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Yeah, not a problem, man. I do. I almost had a panic attack because I was like, I didn't

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have a backup episode planned. So like I was like, I was like scrambling. And then you

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guys got back to me and said, oh, tomorrow's fine. I was like, oh, like I thought I was

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going to die. But how you doing, man?

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I'm doing well. Yeah. It's a I'm in the middle of writing my third letter to the community,

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going over the scripts for the animated shorts.

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Hell yeah.

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And then selecting which parts of it we need to do like concept art for. We're putting

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together the solicitation posts for the voice acting.

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Awesome.

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So yeah. And then of course, I'll spend the rest of the day just writing.

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Well, it's awesome, man. I'm glad I'm glad that kind of brings me to my first thing.

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So for people listening, what is Metazoo?

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Yeah, sure. So Metazoo is a it started off as just a trading card game about cryptids,

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right? So Mothman, Bigfoot, Hodag really focused on North American, but more specifically,

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you know, US based cryptids. And it was a kind of a project that I started in the middle

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of COVID. Really, actually at the beginning of COVID. I think the I made the Instagram

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in May of 2020. And it just kind of it took off. We did a Kickstarter in August 2020 and

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you know, raised $18,000, which in retrospect was really nothing.

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You know, it was we did how Halloween set we did a Christmas set. I thought it was gonna

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be like this cool little hobby thing. Right. And I was actually I was about to accept I

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was doing like I was doing work for various banks and I was about to accept the position

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was either between like Johnson and Johnson or Goldman Sachs going, you know, going back

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to Goldman Sachs as a VP. But then March came 2021 and it really blew up. And so I was like,

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you know, I'm gonna do this full time. And so for those cryptid lovers out there, this

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is really the first TCG that's focused primarily on cryptids. And it's turning more into a

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trading more into more than just a trading card game. It's it's we have a book that's

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being released. We have animated shorts that will that will lead into an animated series.

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And it's just one of those things where it's like, why is it don't ever done this before?

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I think this is for the cryptic community. This is like this is the lightning rod. Right.

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Yeah. They exist in all these kind of isolated communities throughout the US. You know, tens

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of millions of fans. There's never been a single thing that's like in a rallying call

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for them. I think Metazoo is that I think you just answered like literally every single

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question I had written down in that one. I will see you later. I've enjoyed it. Yeah,

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it was great. But so what made you decide to choose cryptids? Like was that like something

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you grew up with? Like as a kid? And I know I've watched like a bunch of interviews with

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you trying to like get to know you as a person before you came on. I know you that you grew

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up in Brazil from like 17 or seven to 18 or something like that. So like cryptids like

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big for you. I know you've run in America to like live in a place where they might be.

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But I'm sure Brazil has their own. So what was what was the idea behind doing cryptids?

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Like did you love Brazil? Brazil has, you know, it's a very Catholic country, but it's

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also a country that saw a lot of mixing with the indigenous population. And so we had this

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religion, religion slash culture called Candomblé, which is kind of this. He had these the idea

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of worshiping kind of these local deities in the same way that in Catholicism you worship

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saints. Right. Yeah. And so you have like a bunch of these creatures and spirits. And

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it's actually almost more reminiscent to what you see with like forest gods, mountain gods,

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river gods and like Japan. Right. Yeah. That are part of that Yokai subculture. And so,

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you know, cryptids are different. My you know, obviously I knew what Bigfoot was growing

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up. I knew what, you know, Chupacabra was. But really my first encounter was was Mothman

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and Prophecies that came out in like 2003, 2004. Who doesn't love a good Richard Gere

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movie? Yeah, it's very good looking dude. Right. And and it just it scared the ever

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living crap out of me. I grew up Catholic, but it was like it was the first time because

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I looked it up. You know, the the Internet back then was kind of crummy, but I was able

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to look up, you know, that it was actually a true story. And so for me, it was it was

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this weird thing where it was like, all right, this isn't like heaven or hell. It's not even

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a ghost. It's not really an alien. It's like some sort of interdimensional thing. Right.

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And it and I didn't know it at the time because I wasn't familiar with the literature. But

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it was almost like the fear that I felt trying to contemplate that was like the fear that

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you get when you think about kind of like Cthulhu or the other Lovecraftian kind of

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like it's like an exis it's like an existential dread kind of thing. Yeah. It's like, what

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the hell? I don't even know how to process this thing. Right. Yeah. That's why. That's

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why I don't go into open water. Anything that I can't see or understand. I don't want to

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be near. There you go. Yeah. I know. One out of five people who swim and disappear. Right.

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So hold on. Is that a true statistic? It's more like half. But, you know, we just forget

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about it. We forget about people that disappear. So, you know, it's yeah. No. Yeah. So like

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it stuck with me. It stuck with me in my head. So when I was like 2018, I left my banking

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job and attended grad school for my PhD. And, you know, one of my pastimes was really just

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like collecting Pokemon, collecting magic, buying old collections. And like, you know,

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I started getting obsessed with it, but I was obsessed with like vintage Pokemon. I

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was obsessed with kind of the fringe forgotten about products like the major chocolate. You

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know, I had like 50 boxes of the major like Pokemon chocolate that had like these really

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cool holographic cards in them that no one really knows about. Right. You know. And then

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of course I bought like dozens of of Watsi era Japanese boxes as well as as as English

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boxes. Right. And back then, like you could get a base set Pokemon box for like 2500 bucks.

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And I was able to buy it. I was able to buy an unlimited team rocket that had a rip in

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the seal for 800 bucks. So like I accumulated all these things and I started deconstructing

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what, you know, based on my experience in investment banking and that kind of stuff,

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I was like, I was super interested in it from a product perspective. I was like, I'd love

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to be able to do this myself. Like it sucks that like, especially with vintage stuff like

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that. I feel like that magic is lost. The feeling of being a part of something that's

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new and growing and getting in on the ground floor and and kind of growing up with it.

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Right. So it's like I want to make my own card game. And so really it started in 2018

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in earnest. Right. I started getting those inklings about doing something like that in

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2016, but it really never didn't take form until I had enough time to kind of like do

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this in my off time. Well, that was the one thing I loved about Medezoo too is that I

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only found it because I was doing research for this show about the flat was monster.

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And it was right around the time when UFO had either just released or was like halfway

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through between UFO and science. And I immediately fell in love with it. But it was awesome because

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I like the fact that it is like an it's a new it's a newer TCG, I guess, like physical

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products have only been around since what, 2021? 21. So it's cool to be like kind of

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at the beginning, every card I'm getting right now is first edition. But I did like that

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you read did Cryptid Nation base set for the second edition, because when you're like a

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collector or even if you're trying to play like, I feel like those cards are essential

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and trying to buy a booster box for I guess, what are they going for now? Something ridiculous.

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Like I couldn't afford that, but I can afford the second edition. Yeah. Yes. And that'll

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change right? Like, you know, eventually second edition will run dry. And it's you know, people

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it were in that weird stage where, like people look at at first edition that came out in

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like, geez, when the first it came out in like, beginning of 2022. Right? Yeah. Like

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second edition did. And it's like, people look at that and they're like, oh, like, it's

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becoming a vintage product. It's like, it's a year old. Right? So people will lack this

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perspective. People lack perspective, even with Pokemon, where Pokemon existed for three

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years so longer than Medesu has been around in Japan before it came to the US. Right.

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And you know, they it's kind of like that 24 hour news cycle thing where everything

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goes really fast. And like, you know, Medesu started the Kickstarter era, but now the Kickstarter

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era is done with right. And it's like, and all these things have happened. It's like,

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it's been two years. Like, we're not even in that third year where we kind of really

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go global. You know, we're pre IP, the book hasn't come out, the show hasn't come out,

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the video game hasn't come out, but it's all coming out this year. And so like, we're right

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at that point where we're going to hit critical mass. And you know, if you want to compare

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it to Pokemon, it's like we're in that watsi era in Japan where, you know, they've released

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the first few sets. And, you know, people are viewing kind of that release within the

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context of the current fandom, not what the fan will be like 10 years from now. So it's

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interesting. And you know, this probably better than most Medesu fans, the cryptid community

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is huge. Yeah. And it's ravenous. Right. And so, you know, the other thing that we really

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haven't tapped into, and I think your testament to that, you only found this stuff, you know,

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midway between UFO and seance, the cryptid community really isn't aware of Medesu yet.

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And you know, things like the water tower being at Loveland festival and, you know,

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doing the Hodak stuff and Flatwoods and going to all these different festivals and holding

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Medesu events there and showing them the power of the community and kind of inviting them

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in. That's the start of that. And that happens this year as well.

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I don't even know why I wrote these questions down again, because you just answered it.

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I was going to say, did you like, you guys have been hitting the cryptid circuit, like

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the festival circuit pretty hard. Even in the beginning, you're doing Mothman festival

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and stuff like that. But yeah, you just did the water tower at Loveland, which was the

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inaugural Loveland festival. But like you said, do you find that going to these cryptid

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fests like you get Mothman coming up, stuff like that, that cryptid fans are kind of gravitating

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towards Medesu?

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It's interesting, right? Because this is going to sound like a convoluted answer, but when

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we go to these festivals, they're filled with other creatives who are starting their own

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businesses, right? And they want a part of that cryptid pie, so to speak. I think the

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vast majority of cryptid fans aren't really activated yet in the sense that they might

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be a fan of watching a Discovery Channel thing on a local cryptid. They might be a fan of

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Supernatural and watching the Wendigo episode. They might even like Files, right? But they're

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not going to conventions necessarily to discover a new trading card game, or buy like Snallygaster

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whiskey, right?

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They're there for the wrong reasons then, because I would only go, I would love to go

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to Mothman Fest, I would love to go to all these, but the only reason I'd go is for the

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vendors, like the art. People that go to those festivals already know the history and the

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lore mostly of the cryptid they're going to, so to me it's more like a state fair or something

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like that. You go, you check out the vendors, the food, what's new, what's not.

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And I think that's only like 5% of the cryptid community. I think the other 95% are passive

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fans, and I think they're passive fans because they haven't been given something legitimately

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big and cohesive and inviting to kind of latch onto and become a part of, right? And I think

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that Metazoo could be that larger cultural movement where you do have that kid that's

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watching the Bigfoot special want to go out and buy a Bigfoot trading card, right? And

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that's as you know, a Metazoo, you know, that particular Bigfoot show is sponsored by Metazoo,

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right? And so we've seen adoption from a lot of cryptid fans among the vendors who are

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in many ways actually kind of competing with Metazoo if you think about it. But because

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you don't have critical mass of kind of those more passive cryptid fans attending these

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festivals because they're more passive fans than active ones, we are still by and large

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unknown to the cryptid community, which is interesting to think about.

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Yeah, that's why I wonder how many people discovered Metazoo the same way I did, like

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trying to find information about a cryptid and then just like stumbled upon. It's like

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Flatwoods Monsters, my favorite cryptid alien story, just because it's so fucking like wild

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and out there. I wonder how many people like looked up like, I don't know, like the Enfield

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Monster and just like came across like the Enfield Monster card.

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Yeah. And we're in this weird position where, you know, for a lot of these cryptids, we

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are really the first way of like representing them. That's not just like some fan art that

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someone posted on like the block or like DVD or something like that. Yeah. And in or, you

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know, what the original reports were in a magazine or a newspaper from like 1930. Right.

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Well, that's what that's what blew my mind. It blew my mind that like. The squonk in Metazoo

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like blew up, you got like pocket squonk, you got like, like it was like a huge fan

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favorite, but like that's like something that was written about like one time in a random

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book somewhere, like a folklore book, and like it just blew up.

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Yep. And that's that's one of those weird things about fandom, right? Like you never

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know what what people are going to latch onto. Right. And you could have you can have an

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idea of what will be popular. Like I knew Mothman was going to be popular. Right. Yeah.

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Based on pre-existing fandom in the cryptic cryptic community, like before Metazoo. Right.

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But you know, then people latch onto things that you never really expect. And you can

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try and engineer it, but it's almost better to let it go on its own. Yeah. Because then

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you get surprises like that. Right. And and it's kind of magical, too, because like like

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he said, the squonk was written as a fearsome critter lumberjack thing in like a book published

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in 1911. Right. And it's like and then all of a sudden, you know, that part of American

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folklore history, because that's what it is, is now it'll never be forgotten. Right. Whereas

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before it a lot of these things are at risk, especially some of the more esoteric or lesser

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known ones are at risk of disappearing forever. Right. Yeah. From the cultural eye. Like those

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books will always be there. But like who's looking for them? No one. Well, they gave

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a shit about Squonk before Metazoo. You know what I'm saying? Like and so we can we can

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kind of do that. And then what comes with that, especially with local cryptids, is,

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you know, we have more and more festivals popping up. And when I talk to these organizers,

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like you know, the they're like, yeah, well, hey, we know that there are a lot of Metazoo

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fans that will come out to these things. And so we're going to put on a festival and we're

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going to celebrate it, you know, in five years. If you ask them to do that, they would have

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been like, we have no idea if anyone's going to show up. Yeah. Well, it's like actually

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I think this year is the inaugural Squonkapalooza. Yeah. In Pennsylvania. And I'm doing my dandis

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to get a table there so I can do like a like a live podcast from it or something like that.

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But yeah, I do love these. I love the fact that Metazoo, it focuses on like the heavy

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hitters. You got Bigfoot, Chupacabra, Mothman, all that stuff. But you do go into like some

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of the more weirder, lesser known cryptids, which are what I want to focus this show on,

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is like mostly like the these like the one off sightings kind of deals like the Anfield

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Monster stuff like that. When you were doing research, like when you came up with the idea

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to do Metazoo as a cryptid base, like how many of these did you already know? And how

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many did you have to like really dive deep into finding some of these? Oh, my gosh, it

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was months and months of research. I remember I remember my partner at the time getting

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really pissed off because we went to Sleepy Hollow and for Halloween in 2019. So we were

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there Sleepy Hollow 2019. You know, she was getting dressed up as as he was like Marilyn

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Monroe or something. And I was on the on the on the bed. And I was like creating a spreadsheet

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of hundreds of cryptids and and like wiki references to them, like newspaper references

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to them. Yeah. Like, you know, you sound like you're doing research for the show. It is

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so fun. And then and then you realize like just by like like one of the things that I

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notice with a lot of like trading card games or just IPs that have to come out with new

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generations of things is the character designs become very stagnant or they become very stagnant

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or they become like very derivative of each other or they just go they go crazy. Right.

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And then like the simple elements of character design that worked and made something memorable

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or iconic. You move away from that because like you have to how do you add how do you

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differentiate? Well, you just add more shit to a base design. It's like Digimon. They

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have like that cool robot dinosaur looking thing. And then they also have like just like

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an ice cream cone. Yeah. I base at Pokemon. It's like Blastoise is a turtle. Charizard

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is an orange lizard dragon. And Venusaur is a is a frog with a plant on its back. Right.

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Like, you know what I'm saying? Like you look at the current ones and it's like, what the

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fuck am I looking at? And and so what I noticed as I was going through this is like it was

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like it was it was kind of magical because I was like these things are like just by serendipity

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by that these these occurrences happening kind of in their own bubbles over decades.

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Right. They all looked with the exception of the goddamn Sasquatches. They all look

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different. Right. Like and they're all super interesting. I mean, like the the if you look

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at something like the van meter visitor. All right. Yeah. It's like a little dragon thing

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with a pterodactyl with a horn and a light. And yeah, it shoots a laser out of its head.

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That's pretty cool. And that's fundamentally different than, you know, Mothman. Mothman

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is a big ass moth thing. Right. And it's like and that's fundamentally different than like

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the the speed demon, which is like a circle with like like legs around it that rolls around

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or a bait robber, which is like literally a crab with like a key and a lock for for

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claws in like it picks locks and it's like, what the hell? Like you put like a bunch of

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creative people in a room they'd never come up with. Yeah. And it's thousands of them.

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It's thousands of them. And I, you know, when I initially started doing this research, I'm

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like, oh, it's going to it's going to be rough because most of the famous ones are just variations

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on Sasquatch because Sasquatch is by far the most popular one. So it makes sense. You got

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Bigfoot, you got Skunk Ape. Yeah. It's basically all the same. But then you got you got like

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Bat Squatch, though. Come on. Yeah. That's just is pretty cool. Right. You know, and

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so you and so but like the people want their own local version of a very popular legend

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because it makes it'll make people famous. And also, you know, you could say, well, maybe

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they're they're accustomed to viewing something strange in a way that that they've already

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kind of like seen before. Right. So if they've seen Bigfoot, Bigfoot, Bigfoot, Bigfoot, Bigfoot,

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they're not going to get creative when they see something unknown that's shaped like a

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man. There's like, yeah, it's another Bigfoot, but it has like green hair, as opposed to

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like coming up with something unique. Right. But luckily, the farther the further you go

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back in time, before, you know, Bigfoot dominated kind of the zeitgeist when it comes to sightings.

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Right. You have a bunch of these like weird siloed stories. And all these like really

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niche esoteric cryptids all look different from a design perspective. And so, you know,

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again, back in Sleepy Hollow, I was I got in trouble because I spent the entire weekend

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just like, like, literally just researching this thing. And then it turned into an obsession.

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Right. Yeah. And I knew that I was going to do cryptids before that. But that was really

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the first weekend that it turned into an obsession for me. And I created the first it wasn't

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just cryptids. Right. It was spells and artifacts and things like that. I created a set list

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of several hundred cards that ended up being the vast majority of the first three sets.

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Yeah. Cryptids will do it to you, man. Like, once you start diving into it, like, it gets

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a little intense. And people don't like and people like some of the earliest questions

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that I got was like, you're not going to have enough cryptids for more than three sets.

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Like, you have no idea. No idea. Like, like, this is entries of folklore that's untapped

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that people don't know about. Right. And it's like, I almost view it as like, when, remember,

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like, so, you know, the Grimm Brothers, like, storybooks. Right. Yeah. And the reason they

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did that is because you had a bunch of print Prussian principalities, like dozens of them.

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And they all had kind of like these little siloed urban legends and stories and myths

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and fairy tales. And the Grimm Brothers were like, let's go around and collect these things.

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Like, history changes, these stories are being lost and they resurface and sometimes they

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disappear forever. So let's go around and collect them. Right. Yeah. And I think it

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may have been an edict or may have been directed by some government. But I'm not sure. Right.

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But like, but this is very similar. It's like, no one really, with very few exceptions, no

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one's gone around and created. Now, there are some excellent resources online. I don't

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want to belittle those. Right. Yeah. But no one's gone to the, I think, to the extent

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that Medizou has to collect these things, put them under one single umbrella and be

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like, this is American folklore. Yeah. And, you know, by the time that we finished the

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block cryptid nation, we move on to Yokai Island and we have two more sets with really.

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Yeah. Two, three more, two more sets. Right. We have three more sets. We have native war

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and then CP. But I would say war is a rehash of everything else. Native and SCP is like

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based on the SCP stuff. Right. And then so native is really the last time that you're

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going to see new cryptids introduced. Yeah. But that'll be so we've had base set, we've

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had nightfall wilderness, UFO, seance and native. That's six sets and hundreds of cryptids

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that have been covered. So, you know, and it's primarily 99 percent of these cryptids

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are American cryptids. I love the fact that you feel that way about cryptids saying that

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it is American folklore and that a lot of these that you have in the set, that you are

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bringing them to light to people that would never have heard of them. Like people might

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have gotten it because of Mothman, Bigfoot, Chupacabra. But now they're finding out all

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these other things. And it's good that these stories are being told. And that's actually

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why like I kind of promote my podcast more to the Metazoo community than so the cryptid

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community, because I feel like a lot of these cryptids are they love playing them. They

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love but they might not know the story behind them. I'm sure you're you're fucking social

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media team must hate me because I tag you guys in almost every single fucking post,

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even if it has no love. These two. But like it's just like if you're as passionate about

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cryptids as I am, and if you're playing a game based off cryptids, you probably know

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the story and the lore behind them. And I love that you're saying that you that you're

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trying to put them all together and bring together a community so that these things

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don't get lost in time, because I feel like some of them do like I'm from New Hampshire.

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And I'm going to be completely honest with you. The Woods Devil. I had never even heard

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of the Woods Devil in New Hampshire. Well, until I found the card in Metazoo, which is

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wild. Do you think I would know about it? Yeah. Well, I mean, and so it's almost like

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how do you it's knowing your own history, right? Like, yeah, because I never knew that

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I never even would have known that the Woods Devil existed. Yeah. And I still find like

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new things, you know, writing the books and stuff like we're in this region of the US.

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Like let me look up like what's in here. And it's like, God damn it. That would have that

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would have made a really good card. But, you know, I made no to them because we're going

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to we're going to eventually go back and create new sets that touch on Cryptid Nation, Yokai

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Island and Grimm's Kingdom and all these things. Right. Yeah. But, you know, it's a delicate

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process because you're going to have a lot of cryptid enthusiasts who are what I would

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call purists. Yeah. And they're like, they're like the van meter or the Flatwoods story

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is the Flatwoods story. We don't want to represent it as part of some larger story that's an

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amalgamation of all these cryptid stories. And it's like, I understand. Like, but bear

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in mind that the card, the place of the Flatwoods monster in the story, the way that we represent

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him or her, rather, is is 80 percent accurate. And then we change it. But if you look at

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any sort of folklore story, like story that that takes from the story and tries to put

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it into a larger piece into a larger universe, you have to do that. You have to make the

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pieces fit. Metazoo has a pretty deep lore behind it. And in the end, the lore of Metazoo

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is a fictional story. So, I mean, you got to give a little leeway for what the cards

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are. You know what I mean? And it's all well intentioned, right? Like we're not appropriating

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these histories. We are we are adding them to a larger collective to enhance them so

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that they are greater than the sum of their total, right? Yeah. Other individual parts

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and giving them a spotlight where again, they haven't had that opportunity. And so, you

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know, it's kind of like, again, looking at Lord of the Rings, when he revitalized certain

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parts of dying, kind of parts of European mythos or folklore. And he like his representation

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of elves was not the only de facto representation of elves. He took the representation as described

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as he's like, you know, like beautiful, fair skinned, long haired, pointeered creatures

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that lived forever and, you know, were at their hearts, peaceful, right? And he put

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them in the story. And then of course, molded that clay to the shape of the story in a way

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that made sense. But they were still identifiably elves, right? Yeah. No one and kind of like

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with Metazoo becoming the de facto representation of a lot of these more niche cryptids. When

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a lot of people think of elves, even when they're in the in creation mode, they don't

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reference the earliest stories of elves. They reference Tolkien's elves, right? And so Metazoo,

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if and when the lore aspect, the books go viral and they spread and whatnot, like Metazoo's

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version of Mothman will be maybe the de facto idea of Mothman when people think about Mothman,

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right? Yeah. We have the most consistent representation of Mothman. His role in our story is what it

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is. But then what's really cool is if you want to do, if you want to dive deeper into

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the basis of that lore, like there are like millions of sources on it. Yeah. And so I

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don't view it as appropriation. I view it as a starting point for a real fan. It's like

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a jumping off point for people who want to learn more about not just the lore of Metazoo,

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but also for like the lore of the actual cryptid that is being represented. Exactly. Yeah.

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And if you look at like, I think the one of the few original ideas that Tolkien had was

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like the Uruk-kai, right? Which is like a mixture of elf with like corrupted man or

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whatever, right? It was like, but then like elves, orcs, goblins, dragons, dwarves, you

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know, and then of course hobbits, but the idea of little people were like, were well

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known by them, right? Yeah. And so, you know, mixing existing lore or existing folklore

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with some completely original elements, like the underlying story from Metazoo is like,

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it's, again, it's enhancing. It's not taking away. No, I, yeah, I agree with that. So,

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God damn it, you're answering all my questions before I can ask. I did want to know, like,

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so when you were doing research on cryptids and figuring out like the cards and you know,

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all that stuff, like how did you choose which ones you're going to do and which ones you're

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going to put to the side? Yeah. So it's, it's an interesting process. And it's, it's hard,

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right? Because so like originally the, the cryptid nation was supposed to be one set

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and then the second set was supposed to be Yokai Island and then the third set was supposed

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to be Grimm's kingdom. But it became such a, there's so many cryptids and so many things

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that I wanted to do. I was like, like this has to be a whole block of sets, right? Yeah.

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And but then you're like, all right, well, what do I put in the first set to make it

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appealing enough so that people want more sets, but then how do you leave enough out

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so that you can see the cool things into the new sets such that the follow-up to the really

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cool first set is still really cool. Right. And like worthwhile. And so, you know, for

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the base set, I, you know, so there are a few ways that you can do that, right? For

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the base set, you obviously choose a bunch of really cool ones. Yeah. You got it. You

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got it. The heavy hitters, right? Not all of them, but you got to get the good ones

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right in there. And then, and then you rehash some of those heavy hitters and following

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sets that are like thematic to them. Right. So yeah, you have a Mothman show up a nightfall,

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you have Flatwoods Bonser show up in UFO, even though they showed up in the base set.

357
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Right. Yeah. And, you know, same with Piazza Bird and Native and, and all these things.

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And so, and then I was like, okay, so like, how do you define a heavy hitter in Metazoo?

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You base it off of what's popular now. If you do that, the entire sets can be Sasquatches.

360
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Right. Or I can look at them and I can say Piazza Bird is a, a Chimera dragon type thing

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that breathes fire. And, you know, that's pretty cool. And that could probably, we could

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probably make it look similar to a fire breathing dragon. That's, you know, and then say like,

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oh, well, you know, that's kind of like, hey, that's a very Charizard looking card. And

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then you can look at Mothman and you say, that's very, very different looking than Piazza

365
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Bird, but it's just as cool. Right. And so color, shape, size, lore, these are all like

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degrees of freedom and design where I'm like, I want, I want to be able to say, hey, every

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aura has a cryptid that looks different. Kind of has, you know, a unique element to it.

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That's like, again, if you look at Blastoise, Charizard and Venusaur, they, they're all

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lizards, right? But they all kind of, they look sufficiently different. And, and one's

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orange, one's green, one's blue, right? Or one's red, blue, green, right? And so I took

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cues from that too, where I say, even now to my artists, I'm like, the auras and their

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color scheme have to be sufficiently different from every other aura. Like if you look at

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a lot of TCGs nowadays, they have different categories of creatures or whatever, but from

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a color scheme and design perspective, it's hard to differentiate them. You can't like,

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you know, and Magic used to do this really well, where it was easy to tell without the

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border a white card, a white card from a blue card, right? Nowadays less so easy, I think,

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right? And I would say with Pokemon, it's very difficult if you take away the border

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nowadays to determine whether or not if you don't know the Pokemon, you're looking at

379
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them. They're all over the place. Yeah. And so, and so for me, like my, my litmus test

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to determine whether or not an art does justice to the aura that it's in is if I, if I take

381
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:15,120
away the border, can I still identify what aura it's from? Right. And so, yeah, again,

382
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:20,920
it's that balance between having the designs be sufficiently different. So we're not looking

383
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:27,480
at just a bunch of Sasquatches. And then of course, but then, but then, you know, to,

384
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:31,960
but then it's hard, right? Cause you choose quote unquote heavy hitters and people are

385
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,800
like, how dare you, you know, choose what's going to be popular. You don't know what's

386
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,680
going to be popular. It's like, yeah, but then like, of course we have to do that because

387
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,840
we have to determine like what cards are going to be rare. So we have to assume that like

388
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:47,560
some of these cards will be more popular than others. Like, like you have to, it's the same

389
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:52,440
process with kind of selecting a mascot for a set. It's like, I thought that sinkhole

390
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:58,160
Sam would be really popular cause he looks dope as hell and everybody hates him. I had

391
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,880
no idea that Squawk would be popular and everybody, you know, I thought that he was

392
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:06,880
just like one of the grossest fearsome critters. But people love them.

393
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:11,200
Well, he's the most relatable cryptid if you really think about it. Oh yeah. I know for

394
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:16,160
sure. Every time I, every time I phone goes black, I'm like, there you go, Squawk. Yeah.

395
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,600
It's like that, it's like that, it's like that Netflix meme where it's like, yeah, it

396
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:24,080
asks if you're still watching you catch your reflection. Like that, that is the Squawk

397
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:29,320
in all of us right there. Yeah. You know, but then I knew like Loveland Frogman would

398
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:34,720
be semi-popular. I thought Beast of Busco would be a bit more popular, but you know,

399
00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:40,800
no one likes him. The Loveland Frogman though, like depicted as described in the actual lore

400
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:46,680
of it. I don't think it would be as popular as it is now. Right. I mean, yeah. The image

401
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:51,880
that you find when you look up, you know, Loveland Frogman is literally a JPEG of a

402
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:57,400
frog on a bridge upright with a staff in its hand. It's a nightmare. It's all, all bad.

403
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:02,840
Yeah. So with that one, I'm like, okay. So it has a staff that's supposedly shot off

404
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:10,280
sparks. So I told Kelsey, make it a wizard frog. And she's like, say less. And then you

405
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:14,960
have things like Cumberland Dragon, where, you know, it's a, like, I was like, man, like,

406
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:19,360
why aren't there more dragons in the US? Right. There are actually quite a few, but like this

407
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:26,360
one, like the Cumberland Dragon was described as a furry, it was described as an iguana

408
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:34,120
type lizard with like white hair. Right. I was like, okay, kind of gross. You know, and

409
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:38,080
so I told Victor who did the original art, I'm like in the design, I'm like, make it

410
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:47,400
kind of like a more foresty version of, you know, a dragon, right? Yeah. But like a kind

411
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,720
dragon, like one that with softer features, right? He was like, all right, cool. And then

412
00:39:51,720 --> 00:39:58,080
he came up with the Cumberland Dragon thing. And so with some of these lesser known ones,

413
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:05,080
it's like we had the ability to dictate kind of the cultural image of what that cryptid

414
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:10,000
would look like. And now if you look up, you know, Wevlin frogmen images and there's fan

415
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:14,160
art, even if it's not in any way associated with Metazoo, it mostly comes up as like a

416
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:22,320
wizard frog, right? Obviously we will never be able to supplant the existing cultural

417
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:28,680
representation of Bigfoot. But I think with Mothman, if we get big enough, you know, certainly

418
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:34,720
our representation of Mothman is similar enough to the old representations. And yeah, it's

419
00:40:34,720 --> 00:40:42,440
close enough that I know what it is. You know, if I had seen your representation of Mothman

420
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:49,280
and not known anything about Metazoo, I'd be like, oh, that's a Mothman. Yeah. Yeah,

421
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:56,600
I know for sure. So and kind of like, there's a benefit to that. And then there's a bad

422
00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:01,840
aspect to that. The benefit of it is, you know, it is easier to bring in Mothman fans

423
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:06,800
into Metazoo because they can identify Mothman as being Mothman. The flip side of that is

424
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:12,600
because it's so similar. It's not, it may not be uniquely Metazoo enough to stand on

425
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:18,520
its own, where someone views it and says, oh, yeah, that's Mothman, but they don't instantly

426
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:24,760
recognize as Metazoo's Mothman. So, you know, it's, you know, in business, you know, 101,

427
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:33,760
you learn about there's a benefit to being like, so ubiquitous that like, when people

428
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:39,920
say tissue, they think about something that a piece of paper that you used to blow your

429
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:45,000
nose with, the tissue is actually a brand name, right? Like Band-Aid. Like Band-Aid.

430
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:52,900
Yeah. And so the brand name is so attached to the underlying object that it actually

431
00:41:52,900 --> 00:42:00,040
replaces the word that's used in daily vernacular. But there, which is awesome. And the bad,

432
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:05,840
the flip side of that, the bad side of that, of course, is no one knows that it's a brand.

433
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:15,160
Right? Yeah. And so, yeah, it's interesting, right? In dealing with public domain creatures

434
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:21,760
like this, it's like, it's impossible to kind of get away with that unless, you know, you're

435
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:25,160
dealing with lesser known cryptids, but then you're dealing with lesser known cryptids

436
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:32,880
with a less pre-established fan base. Can I just say how smart it was to go public domain

437
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:37,760
cryptids for like, like that is hands down, like as a business and also like just like

438
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:46,960
financial decision to go like, brilliant. I applaud you for it. It was, it was a battle

439
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:54,200
for a long time in like 2018, 2019. I was like, I want to be able to say that I'm creative

440
00:42:54,200 --> 00:43:03,000
enough to come up with my own IP. But like, why would anyone ever care? And then I, you

441
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:10,600
know, I started doing some research and really it started off with just looking at public

442
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:18,280
domain characters in general. And then it turned, and then I found kind of a Yo-Kai

443
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:24,080
that was listed. I think it was Basan, which is like a fire breathing chicken. And some

444
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:30,280
of the earliest cards that I made at home, it wasn't Mothman, it was this fire breathing

445
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:37,040
chicken. And then I was like, all right, so I got into the Yo-Kai hole. And then I was

446
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:41,480
like, well, Yo-Kai are really no different than like Bigfoot, right? And so I looked

447
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:45,840
at like what category Bigfoot fell under and was like, all right, cryptozoology. And then

448
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:51,940
that's how that cascade happened. And I was like, it makes sense. It's a lot less arrogant

449
00:43:51,940 --> 00:43:55,840
for me to assume that I can create this IP. I mean, I think Metazoo wouldn't exist in

450
00:43:55,840 --> 00:44:01,800
the TCG Kickstarter era wouldn't have existed had I assumed that I could create this IP

451
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:09,960
without tapping into a pre-existing fandom, right? That's a smart, smart idea. It took

452
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:15,960
a, you know, it took a kind of, it was a shot to the ego to be like, I really want to be

453
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:24,720
the creator of something original, but I'll take the ability to create an original collection

454
00:44:24,720 --> 00:44:29,240
of them, right? A representation of them. And I'm glad that I was able to kind of swallow

455
00:44:29,240 --> 00:44:35,680
my ego on that because otherwise, you know, it would still just be a few posts on Reddit,

456
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,040
you know, talking about the cool game of blobs that I wanted to create or some shit like

457
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:45,000
that. Do you take into consideration like the lore of the creatures when deciding like

458
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:49,440
it's attacks, it's health damage, like that sort of stuff? Like when you're, when you're

459
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:59,200
creating the cards? Yes. In fact, it's, it's like our mantra in R&D where it's like, you

460
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:04,640
have to like beat it into them, right? Cause they're, they're like, it, we were not game

461
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:12,440
pieces. Like we're not, even like chess as like game pieces, their moves and their mobility

462
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:20,960
across the board reflects kind of the power of the underlying, like royalty status of

463
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:26,960
the, of the, of the, of the pieces, right? Of the characters. So like a king, you know,

464
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:32,600
a queen can, can like a pond can only move forward one. It can only attack diagonally.

465
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:40,600
A horse can do the L shape jump. It can, and it can jump over pieces. Yeah. And being kind

466
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:46,800
of like, it can only move in a certain way. Cause like, you know, it's, it's in like the

467
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:50,960
rook and the, and the, it's, it's, it's fascinating, right? But then you look at like checkers and

468
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,960
it's like every piece is the same, right? Unless you get to the side and you can, you

469
00:45:53,960 --> 00:46:01,080
can clean it, right? And so, you know, my, my mantra is like, we're not checkers. Like

470
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:06,700
these, these creatures exist in the world, you know, for a lot of people. And so their

471
00:46:06,700 --> 00:46:14,420
abilities should reflect kind of the lore in an important way, right? So Mothman literally

472
00:46:14,420 --> 00:46:21,760
has a prophecy based move that's associated with it. And like Beast of Busco, like it

473
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:27,000
has kind of like a hungry hippos thing associated with it. And that ties into the, the fourth

474
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:31,920
wall effects of Metazoo really well, where it's like the, the real world impacts the

475
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:38,040
cards because these cards exist in the real world, right? Yeah. And, and vice versa, the

476
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:43,960
cards impact, you know, like it's, it's, it's meant to be a story that we're telling. And

477
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:48,920
you know, that gets lost in translation, sometimes in R and D and play testing where we have

478
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:54,320
a certain goal for a set and the pieces all have to have synergy with each other and they

479
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:58,600
have to have synergy with other sets. And sometimes it's easier just to have like a

480
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:06,160
card that has a certain function that is needed. But then it's like, all right, we have, that's

481
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:13,480
like the baseline functionality of the card. Now we have to add a little bit extra, like,

482
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:21,240
and so we're, we're almost like, we have doubled the task of a lot of other TCGs where, you

483
00:47:21,240 --> 00:47:28,240
know, you look at like Pokemon cards and they'll have like a Beedrill and Beedrill will have

484
00:47:28,240 --> 00:47:34,160
an attack like Horn Drill. And then we'll have, yeah, but then we'll have like another

485
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:41,240
attack that is clearly just a game function that's meant to be associated or drive the

486
00:47:41,240 --> 00:47:48,480
meta in a certain way. Yeah. And then you have like, you know, but then you also have

487
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:55,040
some, even some Pokemon cards where like a Meowth for instance, will have like a payday

488
00:47:55,040 --> 00:48:03,080
related move that has some sort of like that move and its function in the game actually

489
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:09,600
reflects the fact that you're dealing with this cat that has coins associated with it.

490
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:14,600
That's like really, really base level though. Like we go above and beyond with some of these

491
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:20,880
Medazoo character cards where it's like the functionality is a reflection of the lore

492
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:25,920
and sometimes it's more obvious than others. And sometimes it's like, you really have to

493
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:32,480
dig into the lore in order to find it. But if it's not obvious, if you like, I've had

494
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:37,660
it, you know, there's been some difficulties in play testing where a card will change because

495
00:48:37,660 --> 00:48:42,840
they're looking at it merely as a game piece and the lore lost. And I'll be like, I know

496
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:48,520
the lore of this cryptid. I know what the game, I know what the card does. I can't connect

497
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:55,000
the lore to the functionality of the card in any way. That's bad. Right? Like we needed

498
00:48:55,000 --> 00:49:00,260
to do better than that. And so, you know, that's a lot of the R and D and play testing

499
00:49:00,260 --> 00:49:07,480
processes making sure it functions as a game, but also making sure that we stay true to

500
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:09,760
the lore in some sort of functional way.

501
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:14,040
Yeah. Well, that brings me to my next question is about the playability of the game. The

502
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:19,680
fourth wall effects are hands down one of the best things I think has come from a TCG

503
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:24,200
in a while. Like I think that adds a lot. Like a Bigfoot gains invisibility with fear

504
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:31,280
like what, within a mile of a forest or something like that. I know one of the first big pulls

505
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:38,040
I got, I opened a UFO booster box and I got a mini T-Rex and one of his fourth wall effects

506
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:44,560
is if you're wearing a cowboy hat, like you gain something like those added effects make

507
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:50,720
the game so much more than a game I feel like. Cause if I walked, like I don't play regularly

508
00:49:50,720 --> 00:49:54,360
or enough to even be competitive, but if I walk into a room and a bunch of people wearing

509
00:49:54,360 --> 00:50:00,180
cowboy hats, like, Oh, I know exactly what's going on. Like that addition makes it so much

510
00:50:00,180 --> 00:50:05,040
better to me. I think it adds more of a personal like touch to it.

511
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:12,000
Exactly. And, and it allows people to express the weird side. And like, I know people that,

512
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:19,540
that run decks that allow them to wear certain things to events because that's what they

513
00:50:19,540 --> 00:50:27,320
like to wear, right? It allows them to connect to the game in a way that you can't really

514
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:34,720
get with, with other TCGs. And so it's one of the, it's, it is undoubtedly the biggest

515
00:50:34,720 --> 00:50:39,320
innovation of Metazoo. It's also the biggest sticking point that people look at and they're

516
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:42,720
like, this isn't, this makes it unplayable. And it's like, no, you just have to be creative

517
00:50:42,720 --> 00:50:47,320
enough. Plus the ease of playing Metazoo, like getting into it. Like, I feel like entry

518
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:53,060
level, like you don't have to know a lot of like about TCGs to be able to play Metazoo

519
00:50:53,060 --> 00:50:58,880
from the beginning. You know what I mean? Like it's, it's very simple to start, but

520
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:04,760
the, like the ability to go from like just a basic, like if I bought like a spell book

521
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:10,400
that was pre-made, I could easily play it. But the ability to like the ceiling of, I

522
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:13,880
don't know how to describe what I'm trying to say. You probably know what I'm trying

523
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:22,560
to say. Like the intricacy of what you can do with a deck with Metazoo is wild.

524
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:27,240
You can teach a, so again, going back to chess, you can teach a four year old how to play

525
00:51:27,240 --> 00:51:32,600
chess. And so the, the, the entry level to chess is, is really, really, really, really

526
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:39,040
low. But the ceiling on, on it, on the complexity is like infinite. And that's good game design.

527
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:46,040
Right. Like, and I would say there are a lot of TCGs out there where the entry is really

528
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:52,280
low, but the ceiling is also kind of low. And you have things like MTG where it's like,

529
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:57,760
um, I would say the entry level is a bit more advanced and the ceiling is a bit more advanced.

530
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:03,600
Um, and then you have other games like Yu-Gi-Oh! where it's, it's interesting. Like the, the

531
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:09,040
entry level is, is weird because the meta, it's, it's almost like with, with Yu-Gi-Oh!

532
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:15,120
you have to have been playing for years in order to hop in. And that's because the meta

533
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:21,480
of the cards is so, the meta of, of like a new set release is so responsive to what's

534
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:27,640
happened in years prior. That if you haven't, if you can't trail that history to why card

535
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:32,440
has a certain function that it has, then like, it's hard to integrate it and synergize it

536
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:38,560
with the rest of your deck. Um, and, and that's why, like a lot of games have like set rotations

537
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:45,680
and things like that, where, uh, cards from older sets, um, are no longer viable in competitive

538
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:51,800
play or legal and competitive play. Um, and that's also, it's also easier for R&D because

539
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:57,440
they can say like, all right, I have this universe of cards that pre-exist that I have

540
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:05,520
to take into account when making new cards. Um, and, and that makes it easier to avoid,

541
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:12,200
uh, combos of cards that can break the game. Right? Yeah. And so we haven't, we haven't

542
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:17,560
gotten that quite yet with Metazoo where, um, cause every card that's ever been printed

543
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:24,460
is legal. Um, we haven't gotten to the point where it's too much of a task for the play

544
00:53:24,460 --> 00:53:32,040
testers or R&D to consider, um, all the different combos of cards. Obviously that's like impossible.

545
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:38,980
Uh, but like no one's broken the game yet. Yeah. And, and my, again, one of the, my other

546
00:53:38,980 --> 00:53:44,520
mantras in R&D and play testing is like, try and break the game. Uh, and when you're, when

547
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:50,200
you're, when you're play testing it, use all sorts of cards from other sets. And when you're,

548
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:57,200
when we're creating new cards, um, synergize with other sets as well, not just within the

549
00:53:57,200 --> 00:54:01,280
set that we're creating. Um, and that creates value for older sets because people will be

550
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:06,740
like, Oh wow, the set that came out or this card that came out in native six sets later

551
00:54:06,740 --> 00:54:12,240
synergizes really well with this card that came out, um, in cryptid nation a few years

552
00:54:12,240 --> 00:54:18,240
ago. Um, let me go open up a cryptid nation box and see if I can pull this card. Right.

553
00:54:18,240 --> 00:54:23,800
Um, but, but you know, as we move into Yokai Island and things like that, um, there, there

554
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:30,000
will be a moment where we miss something, right? Yeah. It's just, it's inevitable with,

555
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:35,720
with as many cards and as, as, as many sets as we're releasing, uh, eventually we will

556
00:54:35,720 --> 00:54:42,960
hit the spot where we miss something and then we'll have to respond accordingly. But, um,

557
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:49,640
my goal is that the response is never, okay, just ban this card. Right. Um, my response

558
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:57,640
is like, what can we release in an upcoming promo set or an upcoming set that, um, balances

559
00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:05,520
this in a way that no longer makes it broken. Right. Um, so yeah, like that's, you know,

560
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:11,440
we saw it like with Castor's cup last year, we had, um, these pseudo environments, which

561
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:17,120
were, you know, these beautiful environments that kind of dictated what fourth wall elements

562
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:25,140
you were playing in. And, um, because of that, I assumed that people would in this blitz

563
00:55:25,140 --> 00:55:32,520
format that they would be able to, that they'd be forced to create decks that, um, took advantage

564
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:39,080
of this fourth wall effects, but there were so many meta driving decks that were powerful

565
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:45,240
enough that some people just ignored the pseudo environment entirely and still one. Right.

566
00:55:45,240 --> 00:55:50,480
And so going into the towers, I'm like, okay, um, the towers are pseudo environments, but

567
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:58,100
we're multiplying the fourth wall effects, um, by three. And so now, um, even if we didn't

568
00:55:58,100 --> 00:56:02,600
have the restriction on the number of, of aura specific cards that you could have in

569
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:09,120
a deck, like a minimum of 60 water cards for the water car, right. Um, it would still behoove

570
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:17,280
you to, um, play water cards as opposed to, uh, you know, running a, a Quetzal, a Quetzal

571
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:23,800
card and, and dominating with electric, uh, lightning deck, you know? Yeah. Um, but to

572
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:27,840
go back to like the, the, the playability of the game, the one thing I liked about Matt

573
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:33,760
does it too, is that the, the texts for like your attacks and like your abilities, like

574
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:37,840
that was so easy to read compared to, so I was into magic back when I was in high school

575
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:48,400
and then I got back into it probably around, I don't know, 2018 ish. And that's a big jump

576
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:55,160
from like 2006, 2005 to go 13 years without playing a game and collecting it and going

577
00:56:55,160 --> 00:57:01,200
back into it. And so much had changed that like they were basically, it's the most convoluted

578
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:07,600
wording of the most simplest things and you guys spell it out on your cards. You know

579
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:14,000
what I mean? Like it's, it makes it so much easier. And I, so when I got back into it,

580
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:21,160
I jumped into like magic, you know, Facebook groups and stuff like that. And the amount

581
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:27,240
of gatekeeping and like assholery in those communities, I think it's because it's a TCG

582
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:30,840
that's been around for so long. Like my only, the only responses I would get asking for

583
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:34,960
clarification would be like, just like get good fucking nerd. You know what I mean? And

584
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:40,640
it's like, the one thing I love about Metazoo is that I hopped into it. I say late, but

585
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:47,240
I mean in reality I'm only, you know, a year and a half late. The Metazoo community has

586
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:54,080
been so welcoming and so like ready and willing to help whether it be like, Hey, I got this

587
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:59,120
card. I have an extra like, what's the worth on it all the way to like, I'm trying to build

588
00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:04,480
a deck. And I had people messaging me like friend requests just to be like, I'll help

589
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:09,560
you out. Like it's been the most welcoming community that I've ever been in. And as far

590
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:16,720
as TCGs go, and it's amazing that you were able to like create that. That only, this

591
00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:21,400
isn't really a question. I guess I'm just rambling at this point. I just want to say

592
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:27,000
thanks man. Like, like you helped build a community around a product that I don't feel

593
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:31,720
like I'm being ostracized from for not knowing anything about. Does that make sense?

594
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:37,960
Yeah. And that, it has a lot to do with the fact that the community was, was and remains

595
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:45,120
so involved with the growth process, right? You know, we're not some big ass company that's

596
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:53,760
like, you know, when we, when we get feedback, like our, our play testers are our fans, right?

597
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:59,440
Like, and a lot of our employees were initially fans as well that, you know, had a certain

598
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:04,680
skill set that we brought on. And so like, it's always been a very collaborative community

599
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:09,880
and we've all kind of gotten to this point together. You know, that being said, but like,

600
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:16,280
you know, the toxicity is like impossible to avoid. And, and, and it's an industry wide

601
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:22,000
problem, not just in card games, but like in collectibles in general. Right? Like, and

602
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:28,000
you know, and I talked about this stuff with like the heads of, of collectibles, uh, based

603
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:33,320
companies that are worth billions of dollars. Like, and I'll be sitting down and like, and

604
00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:38,760
talk to them about like, Hey, so like you, you print, you're the biggest, you know, printer

605
00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:43,240
of sports cards in the world. Like, how do you deal with toxicity in your, in your, you

606
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:46,520
know, your fandom and your client base. And it's just like, it's just the way that it

607
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:55,680
is. Um, and I don't know, I would almost like, I hate to say that like it's inevitable, especially

608
00:59:55,680 --> 01:00:00,200
since there are like already like really, really toxic parts of the community.

609
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:01,200
Yeah.

610
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:02,840
Uh, I don't know.

611
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:08,680
I think the toxicity comes more from, it depends on whether you're a player of the game or

612
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:14,520
just a collector. You know what I mean? Like the players of the games, at least like in

613
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:19,240
magic and like Pokemon and stuff like that, the, the, the players, the people that really

614
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:24,600
appreciate the property and what's going on, they're the ones that are the most helpful

615
01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:30,040
and they're the ones that will guide you to where you need to be. The collectors in both

616
01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:35,220
magic and Pokemon, they're just there for, they want to buy up all the stock, resell

617
01:00:35,220 --> 01:00:41,480
it at a fucking price that no one can afford just because they can. You know what I mean?

618
01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:44,840
The toxicity comes, I feel like from those people, but with Metazoo, I feel like both

619
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:54,400
collectors and players, they both so far have been pretty amazing to communicate with.

620
01:00:54,400 --> 01:01:00,920
Yeah. And I think that it's, it's, it's a, that, that those toxic elements are there,

621
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:06,920
they're very like, they're much smaller percentage. There really are. It's hard to cut you off,

622
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:14,040
but like, so I think, I think you guys reached out to me for this interview like a month

623
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:20,040
ago, maybe less than that. And as soon as I got like the okay to interview you, I went

624
01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:24,280
to like a couple Facebook groups and be like, Hey, is there any questions they want to ask?

625
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:29,320
Like, what should I ask them about? Blah, blah, blah. And as soon as someone posted

626
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:34,520
anything negative, everyone jumped in and just like, like, fuck you, dude. Like he's

627
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:38,880
not going to ask that question. Like, you mean like, why would he do that? I mean, like

628
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:44,240
there are some bad actors, but I feel like they're just more pissed off by like, I don't

629
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:51,040
even know, dude. Like it's just nonsense bullshit that like no one cares about like, and everyone

630
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:55,800
called them out for like the communities there behind you. You know what I mean?

631
01:01:55,800 --> 01:02:04,840
Yeah. And, and, and, you know, there's, it's so interesting because people, they experience

632
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:08,840
something like Metazoo in so many different ways, right? Like, yeah. You have players,

633
01:02:08,840 --> 01:02:14,480
you have collectors, you have people who are investors, you have people who are for those

634
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:23,280
different categories. They are on either the crazy spectrum of like their diehard fan,

635
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:28,960
diehard collectors, diehard players, diehard investors, or they're super, super passive

636
01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:34,080
collectors, super, super passive players or, you know, passive investors or some combination

637
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:39,520
of them. Right. Yeah. And so, you know, I don't know. It's, it's, it's interesting to

638
01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:45,960
see that kind of develop. I'm excited for this year, a new type of fan to come out,

639
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:51,240
which is like based on the lore and the IP, right? So people who, you know, they're, they're

640
01:02:51,240 --> 01:02:57,480
not collectors necessarily or players or investors. They just love the Metazoo story and they

641
01:02:57,480 --> 01:03:03,680
love the, the, the book. They love the, the animated show. They love the, the video game.

642
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:11,320
And that's, and each of these things are fine. Right. Like they're, they exist because Metazoo

643
01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:20,040
is complex enough for those different types of fandoms to exist. Right. And there's a

644
01:03:20,040 --> 01:03:27,000
place for all of them, but then you have people who were just like, um, they've made it, they

645
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:34,960
made it their job for years to just like, they, it's like, and I, man, I experienced

646
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:40,520
this when I was like launching Metazoo, I had people who hated the fact that I was trying

647
01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:46,880
to start a TCG. They hated it. They're like a new TCG hasn't been made in 20 years. That's

648
01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:53,400
like taking off like, but that's so gatekeepy though. Like, I know, I know. I'm telling

649
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:59,560
you, I had, I had the, the marketing head, uh, I reached out in 2020 to the marketing

650
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:09,560
head of, of a major, major, major of the major, uh, game board and game reviewing forum. Uh,

651
01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:15,040
I think it's called board game geek. Right. Um, and I was like, I want to pay you like

652
01:04:15,040 --> 01:04:20,960
I want the $2,500 package to advertise the Kickstarter, the very first Kickstarter, uh,

653
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:26,440
on your website. Right. And he turned down my money and he says, um, the game is never

654
01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:34,000
going to work. Um, and I'm not going to take your money, um, out of respect to, uh, the

655
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:38,680
users on the forum. I don't want to, I basically didn't want to spam them. And I'm like, okay.

656
01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:45,640
Um, it was the weirdest thing, man, but, but it was indicative of, of the, of the belief

657
01:04:45,640 --> 01:04:51,800
then that, uh, a TCG couldn't take off. And now of course, over the past two, two and

658
01:04:51,800 --> 01:05:01,840
a half years, um, the TCG category has outpaced, um, the board game, um, category for Kickstarter.

659
01:05:01,840 --> 01:05:05,720
And it took like, oh my gosh, it took two years for Kickstarter to finally reach out

660
01:05:05,720 --> 01:05:11,680
like a representative and to be like, oh cool. Like, thank you so much. And like, what can

661
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:18,320
we do to work together? Like we, we, even last year, a year ago, we ran, um, a $2 million

662
01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:25,440
Kickstarter for, um, our playing cards. Right. And we weren't featured anywhere. No one wrote

663
01:05:25,440 --> 01:05:30,920
articles about it. I got a pack of those kicking up on myself right now. Yeah. And it's like,

664
01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:36,680
we were the one, I think we were like in the top 10 Kickstarter's running at that time,

665
01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:42,920
that month. And like, there's no feature. There was no, like, and then you look at all

666
01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:48,360
the other top 10 ones and like Kickstarter was doing like, uh, media press, like posts

667
01:05:48,360 --> 01:05:54,320
about it and they were doing interviews and stuff like that. And so even among the, uh,

668
01:05:54,320 --> 01:06:00,040
the crowdfunding community, especially among the crowdfunding community, even at the top

669
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:07,240
level, even after Metazoo success, there's still this like weird cultural belief that,

670
01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:12,040
uh, oh, it's not going to work out. Like even though it's worked out, like, yeah, even if,

671
01:06:12,040 --> 01:06:20,640
even if Metazoo like tomorrow just disappears, um, there's no, there's no doubt, like there's

672
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:26,280
no way to contend with the fact that we've been a massive success.

673
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:32,080
No, you guys definitely made a cultural impact in the TCG community as well as like the cryptic

674
01:06:32,080 --> 01:06:37,300
community. I feel like that's me though. I have no idea. I fucking, who am I? I'm a

675
01:06:37,300 --> 01:06:44,080
podcaster getting drunk on a Sunday. You know what I mean? Like, but no, I, yeah, it's,

676
01:06:44,080 --> 01:06:47,960
but I mean like that's, that's the same with podcasts. If that makes any sense, like during

677
01:06:47,960 --> 01:06:53,680
the 2020 pandemic, like whenever it was locked in their house, the amount of podcasts that

678
01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:57,800
boomed because people were bored and they, everyone thought they wanted to hear their

679
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:03,840
shitty takes on whatever's happening in the world. Like it was wild. So like I had a podcast

680
01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:07,880
at the time that I started about like pop punk and hardcore music and we lasted for

681
01:07:07,880 --> 01:07:13,240
about two and a half years and it didn't work, but I don't know where I'm going with this,

682
01:07:13,240 --> 01:07:17,720
but I just want to say I get kind of this, like where you're going, we're like, no one's

683
01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:21,920
going to take you seriously. Like why would you start a podcast at this point? There's

684
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:27,600
so many, like the same thing with TCG is like, who's going to take you guys seriously? There's

685
01:07:27,600 --> 01:07:36,080
a billion of them. You got Pokemon, you know, Yu-Gi-Oh, Magic, Flesh and Blood, like why

686
01:07:36,080 --> 01:07:39,160
even do it?

687
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:44,160
And at the time Flesh and Blood was like, it wasn't a Kickstarter based one, but it

688
01:07:44,160 --> 01:07:50,320
was like, you know, it was just booming and stuff like that. And it was like, and people,

689
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:56,200
I even had like people who were interested in Metazoo and they're like, Flesh and Blood

690
01:07:56,200 --> 01:08:01,680
is like a lightning in a bottle event. Like it will never happen again. And then Metazoo

691
01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:08,640
outpaced it. And it was like, it's so weird. Like last year we did 50 million in revenue,

692
01:08:08,640 --> 01:08:13,600
which is like half of what the, the revenue, the annual revenue was for tops. Like the

693
01:08:13,600 --> 01:08:18,800
largest other than Pokemon, like the larger, largest printer of cards, like in the world,

694
01:08:18,800 --> 01:08:25,200
right? And it's like, but like I haven't been invited on CNBC to discuss this thing.

695
01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:32,000
Like it did make news when we sent the first trading card game into space. So it's, we've

696
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:39,360
been fighting this like cultural perception of, of new TCGs and we're still finding it.

697
01:08:39,360 --> 01:08:44,800
I saw a Twitter post yesterday about Metazoo where it was like, yeah, Metazoo will never

698
01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:49,680
be like a TCG. It's just a pump and dump because it was started by some white dude in his garage.

699
01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:53,400
And it's like, man, like where'd we been for the past two and a half years? Like, like

700
01:08:53,400 --> 01:08:54,880
we're a legit company, you know?

701
01:08:54,880 --> 01:09:02,200
First of all, every business ever has been started by a white dude in his garage. Is

702
01:09:02,200 --> 01:09:05,640
that not, you got Amazon?

703
01:09:05,640 --> 01:09:10,160
Every startup has been some person in their garage, like, it can work, right? And it's

704
01:09:10,160 --> 01:09:18,360
like, and it's like, I don't know. It's weird. We're fighting that to this day. And I feel

705
01:09:18,360 --> 01:09:25,320
like even when the show and the book and the video game and all these things come out,

706
01:09:25,320 --> 01:09:31,640
maybe then once we hit critical mass, maybe then it won't matter as much, but because

707
01:09:31,640 --> 01:09:37,040
we're, we're still operating primarily among TCG fans, they have this idea in their head

708
01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:40,800
that it has to be started by a major company.

709
01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:44,920
It has to be like a Wizards of the Coast game for anyone to take it seriously.

710
01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:48,480
Yeah. And it's like, but then you feel like it Wizards of the Coast. I mean, if you look

711
01:09:48,480 --> 01:09:52,080
at Magic the Gathering, it was literally started by some dude in his garage.

712
01:09:52,080 --> 01:09:58,480
Yeah, but also Wizards of the Coast is fucking everything up for D&D so they can get flocks,

713
01:09:58,480 --> 01:10:02,360
I guess. Like even Pokemon was like, yeah, we're bouncing. We're going to just do our

714
01:10:02,360 --> 01:10:03,360
own shit.

715
01:10:03,360 --> 01:10:07,200
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. It's, it's.

716
01:10:07,200 --> 01:10:10,640
Not to talk shit about Wizards of the Coast. I appreciate the things they've done, but

717
01:10:10,640 --> 01:10:14,680
also they're a bunch of asshole, but maybe it's Hasbro. I don't know.

718
01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:21,440
Yeah. I don't know nearly enough about that to, to, to comment on it, but I do know that,

719
01:10:21,440 --> 01:10:25,640
you know, with the moves that we're making this year will hopefully establish us as a

720
01:10:25,640 --> 01:10:29,480
larger IP and kind of break away from that cultural perception.

721
01:10:29,480 --> 01:10:30,480
Yeah.

722
01:10:30,480 --> 01:10:35,640
But in order to do that, we have to become more than TCG. And that's, and that's where

723
01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:40,840
I think the larger cryptid community can kind of, if we can mobilize them and activate them

724
01:10:40,840 --> 01:10:46,360
as fans, then like, you know, but you know, we just have to be super clever and we've

725
01:10:46,360 --> 01:10:49,640
been clever so far. We just have to continue to do that.

726
01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:54,800
Well, you guys have been, you've done a lot of collabs with a lot of people. You had the

727
01:10:54,800 --> 01:11:04,920
rugs, you had the dimmock, yeah. Revive skateboards, all that stuff. Actually, I have a few suggestions

728
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:12,280
if you want to hear my collab suggestions. Yeah. All right. So I think you should collab

729
01:11:12,280 --> 01:11:22,400
with a brewery and come up with Metabrew. Ooh. Zoo brew. Brewzoo. Zoo brew. I think

730
01:11:22,400 --> 01:11:28,320
Metabrew is. I think. See the issue with Meta is like, I came up with that name before the

731
01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:33,840
whole NFT stuff. Yeah. So anyone who sees Metabrew, they're going to associate it with

732
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:40,080
like the NFT bro culture. So I think. Yeah. So for the, so I'm going to be honest with

733
01:11:40,080 --> 01:11:48,600
you. I, so I, I noticed Metazoo back in like 2020, 2021 and I saw the word Meta and my

734
01:11:48,600 --> 01:11:54,680
immediate thought was Mark Zuckerberg. Yeah. And I had no idea what Metazoo was even about

735
01:11:54,680 --> 01:12:00,160
and I saw Meta and I was like, nah, dude, I'm good. Yeah. Yeah. So we're handling that

736
01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:08,040
too. But I think with NFTs kind of falling or becoming less relevant or less associated

737
01:12:08,040 --> 01:12:14,000
with the word Meta. Right. Yeah. I think what we're going to see is, is that kind of cultural

738
01:12:14,000 --> 01:12:19,160
perception shift in terms of like when people see Metazoo, they don't necessarily associate

739
01:12:19,160 --> 01:12:25,640
it with the Metaverse. Yeah. Just because of, of cultural shifts. Right. And that's

740
01:12:25,640 --> 01:12:30,360
not to say that NFTs are necessarily bad, but you know, we did have, we do have a lot

741
01:12:30,360 --> 01:12:36,800
of people who I think would, would love Metazoo who saw Meta, saw that we did do some NFTs

742
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:41,160
and we're like, oh yeah, it's just an NFT thing. Right. But it's so much more than that.

743
01:12:41,160 --> 01:12:47,600
Yeah. Well, I mean, I mean, NFTs are bad for the environment. Kind of. Right. Isn't that,

744
01:12:47,600 --> 01:12:53,160
I think I read that somewhere. I have no idea. So there are a bunch of arguments going for

745
01:12:53,160 --> 01:12:59,960
or against that. But, but I'm not going to, I'm not educated enough to talk on that. Neither

746
01:12:59,960 --> 01:13:03,960
am I. So we should probably just move on. But it's kind of like, all right, so if we

747
01:13:03,960 --> 01:13:08,360
did do a beer, right, then it's like, well, how many people die of alcoholism or alcohol

748
01:13:08,360 --> 01:13:14,320
things a year? And it's like, are you supporting that? And it's like, can't win. Right. Like,

749
01:13:14,320 --> 01:13:18,640
I'm from New Hampshire where we don't believe in, there's no seatbelt law or helmet law

750
01:13:18,640 --> 01:13:25,360
for motorcycles. So I, I was whatever. All right. So Metabrew I think is one, I think

751
01:13:25,360 --> 01:13:35,480
that's a good one. The other one is a, a line of aquariums for the home called Weta Zoo.

752
01:13:35,480 --> 01:13:44,320
No. Okay. All right. I like aquariums. The other one was, you remember the zebra striped

753
01:13:44,320 --> 01:13:52,680
gum? Yeah. Yeah. All right. So Metazoo themed gum called Metachu. We were actually going

754
01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:57,320
to work with Tops on some of that because Tops actually owns a zoo. Wait, question.

755
01:13:57,320 --> 01:14:04,400
Wait. Yeah. Are you going to do the old school like TMNT booster packs that had the stick

756
01:14:04,400 --> 01:14:13,480
of gum in them? So don't tell me you're going to do it. So interestingly enough, we are,

757
01:14:13,480 --> 01:14:20,040
we are doing something with TMNT. Wait, what? And we're going to be announcing that relatively

758
01:14:20,040 --> 01:14:27,680
soon. I think you just did. I think you just did. It's still in the works though. But you

759
01:14:27,680 --> 01:14:34,480
know, it's, it's, it's based on a series of collaborations that, that Metazoo will be doing in conjunction

760
01:14:34,480 --> 01:14:41,720
with a new company called Mothman Collectibles. I'm starting, it's a printing company. So it's,

761
01:14:41,720 --> 01:14:49,600
it's printing as far as what like t-shirts? No. So it's, you know, we have this amazing

762
01:14:49,600 --> 01:14:59,200
printer that we all but own and we're, we're approaching other IPs and other big artists

763
01:14:59,200 --> 01:15:03,720
and stuff like that. We're saying, Hey, like let's print cards with you. And if you want

764
01:15:03,720 --> 01:15:08,640
to associate it with Metazoo, we can do that as well. So they're going to be, it should

765
01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:15,560
be interesting. And we're, we're, we've already kind of nailed down some major collaborations

766
01:15:15,560 --> 01:15:22,400
for that. And so it'll be interesting way of feeding in new or preexisting IP in a new

767
01:15:22,400 --> 01:15:28,560
way into the Metazoo universe and kind of like activating that fan base in the same

768
01:15:28,560 --> 01:15:35,440
way that doing revive activated the skateboard community into being fans of Metazoo and vice

769
01:15:35,440 --> 01:15:40,840
versa. Right. So it's like, you know, in terms of collaborations, there's a bunch of stuff

770
01:15:40,840 --> 01:15:45,480
that we can do, but what are your other suggestions? My other, my other collaboration was, uh,

771
01:15:45,480 --> 01:15:54,600
hook up with a cheese company and do Feta zoo. Ooh, that'd be interesting. Um, a cheese

772
01:15:54,600 --> 01:16:02,000
company. Yeah. Like we haven't even tapped. Please do not write that down. No, no, no.

773
01:16:02,000 --> 01:16:06,680
But we haven't even tapped into like on the beer note, on a cheese note, like the whole

774
01:16:06,680 --> 01:16:11,320
collaborating with like restaurants and things like that. I think, I think, I think meta

775
01:16:11,320 --> 01:16:16,560
brew would be actually really good. Like if you gave me like a fucking, like a Wendigo

776
01:16:16,560 --> 01:16:22,680
pale ale or like a, like a flatwoods monster Pilsner or something, you know what I mean?

777
01:16:22,680 --> 01:16:25,800
Like, obviously you don't name it that cause that's, those are dumb names. You know what

778
01:16:25,800 --> 01:16:30,280
I mean? Like, yeah, no, it's definitely been on our radar and we've, we've talked to a

779
01:16:30,280 --> 01:16:35,320
few companies about it. Um, but I think if we were to do it, doing it with like a local

780
01:16:35,320 --> 01:16:42,680
brewery that's, and there are already cryptid related breweries, um, or brew like beer brands

781
01:16:42,680 --> 01:16:47,240
that we could collaborate with. Well, we're on from in New Hampshire, a six Oh three brewery.

782
01:16:47,240 --> 01:16:55,560
Uh, they already have a, uh, uh, woods devil, like stuff like that. Yeah. And there's like

783
01:16:55,560 --> 01:17:02,080
a bat squash one that I've seen. Yeah. Rogue does bat squash. And then they do, there's

784
01:17:02,080 --> 01:17:09,720
another one I can't quite remember what it is. I don't remember, but I definitely, since

785
01:17:09,720 --> 01:17:15,840
this is a cryptid podcast that focuses around me drinking beers with my guests, I'm all

786
01:17:15,840 --> 01:17:24,360
in. So maybe you sponsor, um, that's cool. Yeah. I know it's something that's like on

787
01:17:24,360 --> 01:17:29,160
my, my wish list, you know, like it's, it's on my, my, which is like, my wish list is

788
01:17:29,160 --> 01:17:35,720
like a thousand entries, right? Of like things that, you know, I want to do with Metazoo

789
01:17:35,720 --> 01:17:41,640
in terms of collaborations. Um, but yeah, no, no, these are all good ideas. I'd say,

790
01:17:41,640 --> 01:17:47,080
I don't know if they're all good ideas. Yeah. The, the, the Feta zoo, you know, we might

791
01:17:47,080 --> 01:17:52,040
have to table that one, but, uh, well, I also don't think what a zoo with the, uh, aquariums

792
01:17:52,040 --> 01:17:58,600
is a good one, but you know, what is it? All right, man. Well, we're coming up with almost

793
01:17:58,600 --> 01:18:04,400
an hour and a half. So I guess, I guess we should probably talk about like, uh, you got,

794
01:18:04,400 --> 01:18:12,640
you got a new, you got a new set coming out. Yeah. A new native. So I guess this is probably

795
01:18:12,640 --> 01:18:18,360
a heavy question right off the bat, but so with native, I assume it's going to be mostly

796
01:18:18,360 --> 01:18:25,280
like first nations, native American, like it's going to be that kind of lore going into

797
01:18:25,280 --> 01:18:34,360
this set. Right. Right. So I guess my question to you is how did you navigate doing native

798
01:18:34,360 --> 01:18:39,840
while also being respectful to the culture that it exists? Like as far as like cryptids

799
01:18:39,840 --> 01:18:45,800
go, like they're pretty localized, like Mothman is West Virginia, same thing with Flatwoods

800
01:18:45,800 --> 01:18:54,200
Monster, Sasquatch, Bigfoot is more like Northwest American, but with like native American culture

801
01:18:54,200 --> 01:19:00,760
and lore, it's not so much a story that someone told one time when they saw the metal man

802
01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:08,600
of Falkville. How did, how did you navigate doing native while like being respectful to

803
01:19:08,600 --> 01:19:15,520
the culture that it represents? Cause even with like the Wendigo, like you've, you've,

804
01:19:15,520 --> 01:19:21,600
you've featured native American lore in your stories before with like the Wendigo, uh,

805
01:19:21,600 --> 01:19:26,960
even if it's not like the most accurate description of the Wendigo, how, how did you navigate

806
01:19:26,960 --> 01:19:33,440
this set to make sure that you weren't basically alienating a whole fan base? If that, if that

807
01:19:33,440 --> 01:19:38,360
makes sense. And you know, to your point, we've, we've had like even some like walking

808
01:19:38,360 --> 01:19:45,720
salmon base set is from the Lakota tribe. And so we've had like cryptids, um, and other

809
01:19:45,720 --> 01:19:52,200
creatures, um, or entities associated with indigenous populations throughout all of our

810
01:19:52,200 --> 01:19:57,000
sets, right? You can't escape. Um, but like for this set specifically, you know, we've,

811
01:19:57,000 --> 01:20:02,680
we had, um, indigenous artists involved. Um, and that's gonna be a big part of kind of

812
01:20:02,680 --> 01:20:07,600
the, the gala we're going to be auctioning off some of those pieces for the foundation,

813
01:20:07,600 --> 01:20:13,880
um, in support of, you know, indigenous charities and things like that. And then we also, um,

814
01:20:13,880 --> 01:20:20,040
we spoke with different tribal leaders and experts. Um, our artists Afton actually went

815
01:20:20,040 --> 01:20:27,560
and worked with some, um, indigenous artists to make sure that she could use, um, different

816
01:20:27,560 --> 01:20:34,800
types of inks and pigments that were derived from, um, uh, plants and different herbs that

817
01:20:34,800 --> 01:20:41,360
were like relevant to their culture. And so, yeah. And so like, look, there's always going

818
01:20:41,360 --> 01:20:45,360
to be like, even with like cryptids, we've gotten backlash because if you look at like

819
01:20:45,360 --> 01:20:52,280
moth man, it's associated with a story, um, where a bunch of people died and a lot of

820
01:20:52,280 --> 01:20:57,200
those people, um, have living relatives, right? And so, you know, and here we are putting

821
01:20:57,200 --> 01:21:05,360
him in a card game and, you know, making a bunch of stickers of him. And, and, you know,

822
01:21:05,360 --> 01:21:10,560
it, it, it, it's very sensitive no matter what you do, because these, these stories

823
01:21:10,560 --> 01:21:17,560
and these creatures exist in the real world. And, um, if we only selected cryptids or creatures

824
01:21:17,560 --> 01:21:22,980
or entities that didn't have some sort of dark background to them, we would have like

825
01:21:22,980 --> 01:21:28,760
several dozen for the entire block of sets. You know what I'm saying? Like, and so, and

826
01:21:28,760 --> 01:21:38,320
so there has to be some, not hand waving, but, um, some, there's, there has to be some

827
01:21:38,320 --> 01:21:43,680
sort of like allowance creatively where we say we're dealing, we're dealing with heavy

828
01:21:43,680 --> 01:21:49,200
things. Let's be respectful. Um, and let's, let's tell the story as accurately as we can,

829
01:21:49,200 --> 01:21:52,480
going back to what you were saying before, while still making it part of this larger

830
01:21:52,480 --> 01:21:59,880
universe. Yeah. Um, and the only exception to those things really are, are, um, you know,

831
01:21:59,880 --> 01:22:03,360
the fearsome critters, like even like the fearsome critters, which you might think are

832
01:22:03,360 --> 01:22:10,000
like the most innocuous stories that you can possibly tell or like, um, they're really

833
01:22:10,000 --> 01:22:14,760
associated with the deaths and disappearances of like lumberjacks during the lumberjack

834
01:22:14,760 --> 01:22:20,440
era of the late 1800s, early 1900s. Um, and they were told as like campfire, you know,

835
01:22:20,440 --> 01:22:25,600
tales of warning, like basically don't go out at night if you're too drunk in the forest

836
01:22:25,600 --> 01:22:31,320
alone. Right. Um, like the hide behind was literally something that would hide behind

837
01:22:31,320 --> 01:22:41,200
trees and then attack, um, ill like lumberjacks. And now there's so much distance between that

838
01:22:41,200 --> 01:22:45,720
thing, that those stories and those people that died that now we can kind of look at

839
01:22:45,720 --> 01:22:48,960
the hide behind and be like, ha ha, isn't it cute? It's like a little stick to your

840
01:22:48,960 --> 01:22:55,920
thing. And, and, you know, but it's, it's, I view it and that's like kind of the negative

841
01:22:55,920 --> 01:23:01,720
way of viewing it. The positive way of viewing it is like what we already discussed, which

842
01:23:01,720 --> 01:23:10,200
is a lot of these indigenous stories are dying on the vine. Um, and, and you only have to

843
01:23:10,200 --> 01:23:16,720
look at their languages and how every year, um, you have languages that die out because

844
01:23:16,720 --> 01:23:23,400
they no longer have people practicing them, um, that are related somehow to the deep cultural

845
01:23:23,400 --> 01:23:30,360
history of, of the Americas, um, and the old cultures that used to exist here. Um, and

846
01:23:30,360 --> 01:23:35,720
so, you know, and I've seen this debate happen on the discord where two people from, um,

847
01:23:35,720 --> 01:23:43,840
uh, Puerto Rico were discussing, um, a native character that we spoiled. And, uh, one person

848
01:23:43,840 --> 01:23:49,160
was like, you know, this is a deity, my religion. Um, and, you know, I'm not sure like if this

849
01:23:49,160 --> 01:23:53,960
is respectful and you had another person who was also part of that religion saying like,

850
01:23:53,960 --> 01:24:00,200
they're like dozens of us, um, who, who worshiped this, this deity or, you know, find importance

851
01:24:00,200 --> 01:24:05,480
of it in it. And like, no one's telling the story except for Medezoo. And this is a way

852
01:24:05,480 --> 01:24:11,880
of bringing cultural awareness to something that is otherwise disappearing. And that,

853
01:24:11,880 --> 01:24:18,040
you know, it goes again, it goes back to, um, us doing this with cryptids, right. And,

854
01:24:18,040 --> 01:24:22,120
and how all these cryptids were disappearing as well. And we were, we're, we're giving

855
01:24:22,120 --> 01:24:27,320
them a second chance. And that sounds like a very noble way of representing something

856
01:24:27,320 --> 01:24:32,600
that, but like, you know, at the end of the day, like, again, if we didn't do that, if

857
01:24:32,600 --> 01:24:37,280
we didn't do any of this, then like Medezoo wouldn't exist. So it's like, I think that

858
01:24:37,280 --> 01:24:42,040
you have to take the, the, the riskier elements of it or like the more sensitive elements

859
01:24:42,040 --> 01:24:46,920
with it and say, we're doing enough good, uh, to warrant that. And I think, I think

860
01:24:46,920 --> 01:24:50,760
that we are, especially with how we're giving back to these cultures as well.

861
01:24:50,760 --> 01:24:57,480
Oh yeah. No. So, uh, you brought up that, uh, you're going to be doing, uh, the Medezoo

862
01:24:57,480 --> 01:25:04,120
Gala for, for native and you're going to be auctioning off the, like, so I want to talk

863
01:25:04,120 --> 01:25:11,320
about the Medezoo foundation. Uh, you guys are doing a lot of work with, for, uh, autism,

864
01:25:11,320 --> 01:25:16,600
disabled vets, that kind of stuff. Is it like, is it one of those things where like, can,

865
01:25:16,600 --> 01:25:21,400
can we find a place to donate money to the Medezoo foundation or?

866
01:25:21,400 --> 01:25:26,840
Not yet. It'll be like event specific things. Um, and that's just because we want to tailor

867
01:25:26,840 --> 01:25:33,800
that experience and make sure that people know that like, Hey, within this one hour

868
01:25:33,800 --> 01:25:42,600
period where we sold $50,000 worth of cards for autism, like that $50,000 is like what

869
01:25:42,600 --> 01:25:48,360
the foundation made in the fall. And that's like what we donated to. Um, like it's easier

870
01:25:48,360 --> 01:25:53,560
to keep things above board. If you, at least from a public perception standpoint, if you

871
01:25:53,560 --> 01:25:59,160
tie money raising to very specific big events, then just having something that people can

872
01:25:59,160 --> 01:26:05,320
donate to passively on like a website. Gotcha. Um, that makes sense. You don't want to make

873
01:26:05,320 --> 01:26:09,640
it look like a money laundering scheme or anything like that. Exactly. Yeah. No. And,

874
01:26:09,640 --> 01:26:13,720
and you know, that might change in the future where, you know, the foundation becomes really

875
01:26:13,720 --> 01:26:19,000
big. And, but I'm also like, well, we also want to do is add a bunch of different cryptid related,

876
01:26:19,000 --> 01:26:28,600
uh, museums and, and, and, uh, other, you know, other representations and efforts of

877
01:26:29,480 --> 01:26:34,920
these local communities to preserve cryptid history. Like we want to, we want the foundation

878
01:26:34,920 --> 01:26:40,040
money to go to that as well. Gotcha. Um, and so like, you know, the big, the big foot museum,

879
01:26:40,600 --> 01:26:48,920
um, the museum of paranormal and crypto zoology, um, in Portland, yeah, yeah. In Portland. And then

880
01:26:48,920 --> 01:26:54,280
there's also flatwoods monster museum. There's like all these different museums that struggle

881
01:26:54,280 --> 01:26:59,800
to get by. And like the medicine foundation can be a way of, of giving them the support that they need

882
01:26:59,800 --> 01:27:05,800
from the largest cryptid community in the world, right? Cryptid fan community in the world, which

883
01:27:05,800 --> 01:27:14,840
is medicine. Yeah. That's great. Um, well, I'm kind of out of questions now. I guess we're coming

884
01:27:14,840 --> 01:27:21,480
up an hour and a half. I don't know how much more time you got. I probably have to hop off in like

885
01:27:21,480 --> 01:27:25,800
five minutes, five minutes. All right. Well, how about this? Do you have any questions for me?

886
01:27:25,800 --> 01:27:31,640
Yeah, I think, uh, I think not questions, but you know, I think that you wanting to tailor,

887
01:27:31,640 --> 01:27:38,920
tailor your podcasts and metasue fans make sense, but I think you should, if possible, you know,

888
01:27:38,920 --> 01:27:44,120
maybe you, you, you should be the podcast that's the bridge between the larger cryptid community

889
01:27:44,120 --> 01:27:50,440
and the metasue community. That's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to do that. Yeah. I think that'd

890
01:27:50,440 --> 01:27:56,840
be cool. I'm trying to, I feel like we all fell in love with these cryptids or beasties as they're

891
01:27:56,840 --> 01:28:01,160
called in the metasue community, but I feel like a lot of people in the metasue community don't know

892
01:28:02,360 --> 01:28:09,960
the stories behind what they're playing as, you know what I mean? Like that's why when, uh, you

893
01:28:09,960 --> 01:28:15,720
guys did the, the water tower, the Loveland frogman, I scrambled to get a Loveland frogman episode

894
01:28:15,720 --> 01:28:22,520
out. You know what I mean? I, I feel like if you're in love with these creatures as much as I am,

895
01:28:22,520 --> 01:28:27,800
you should know the lore behind them. Exactly. And I think that's what I, that's what I'm trying to do.

896
01:28:28,760 --> 01:28:35,320
Well, I think, I think, uh, podcasts like this are going to be an important part of, of metasue

897
01:28:35,320 --> 01:28:39,880
and cryptid history as we kind of collectively move forward. Yeah. So yeah, man, you're doing

898
01:28:39,880 --> 01:28:45,240
great job. I appreciate that, man. Um, all right. Well, I guess it's the end of the episode. Do you

899
01:28:45,240 --> 01:28:49,000
have anything you, I mean, obviously you're going to, you want to plug, you got your new release

900
01:28:49,000 --> 01:28:54,840
coming out, native. Is there anything you want to tell the community as a whole what's going on?

901
01:28:54,840 --> 01:29:01,320
Metasue's future. I know you got Yokai Island coming out after war, I believe. Yeah. Well,

902
01:29:01,320 --> 01:29:05,240
so we talked about all of that. So I think I'll leave with like more general message, which is

903
01:29:05,240 --> 01:29:12,120
like, be kind, um, you know, support all, you know, all metasue fans, bring in new metasue fans,

904
01:29:12,120 --> 01:29:17,640
like be a welcoming community and, uh, just, you know, continue being awesome. And, uh, let's,

905
01:29:17,640 --> 01:29:25,240
let's go into 2023 and grow metasue into, into something more than it's been and, and have this

906
01:29:25,240 --> 01:29:29,560
year be the start of something great. Oh, I love that, man. That's a good message. All right. Well,

907
01:29:29,560 --> 01:29:34,120
thank you so much for listening, everyone. Uh, thank you again to Mike for hopping on with me.

908
01:29:34,120 --> 01:29:42,600
Uh, let's see, uh, please leave a rating and review on apple, Spotify, wherever you can.

909
01:29:43,240 --> 01:29:48,680
Also, if you are a metasue collector and you need your cards graded, we did partner with AGS,

910
01:29:48,680 --> 01:29:53,320
which also it seems like everyone else has, because you can just do that. Uh,

911
01:29:53,320 --> 01:29:57,880
but if I get your cards graded, you can get 35% off. Uh, I'll leave a link below,

912
01:29:57,880 --> 01:30:03,960
not below, this isn't YouTube. I'll leave a link in the episode description, uh, for where to do

913
01:30:03,960 --> 01:30:10,360
they get 35% off. I do get a commission from that because why else would I be promoting it?

914
01:30:11,080 --> 01:30:17,000
And then, uh, let's see, I think that's pretty much it. Follow us on Instagram,

915
01:30:17,000 --> 01:30:31,880
at Cryptic cocktail, Twitter, cryptic cocktail. And with that, thank you so much.