Pretty cool intro music.
Thanks, man.
Hey, everyone. Welcome to Cryptic Cocktail Party, a show where we have a few drinks,
share a few laughs and take a dive into the unknown. Today I'm joined by Mike Waddell,
creator and CEO of Metazoo. How you doing, man?
Not bad. Thank you for having me. I apologize for missing our scheduled meeting yesterday,
but I'm glad that we could do this on Sunday.
Yeah, not a problem, man. I do. I almost had a panic attack because I was like, I didn't
have a backup episode planned. So like I was like, I was like scrambling. And then you
guys got back to me and said, oh, tomorrow's fine. I was like, oh, like I thought I was
going to die. But how you doing, man?
I'm doing well. Yeah. It's a I'm in the middle of writing my third letter to the community,
going over the scripts for the animated shorts.
Hell yeah.
And then selecting which parts of it we need to do like concept art for. We're putting
together the solicitation posts for the voice acting.
Awesome.
So yeah. And then of course, I'll spend the rest of the day just writing.
Well, it's awesome, man. I'm glad I'm glad that kind of brings me to my first thing.
So for people listening, what is Metazoo?
Yeah, sure. So Metazoo is a it started off as just a trading card game about cryptids,
right? So Mothman, Bigfoot, Hodag really focused on North American, but more specifically,
you know, US based cryptids. And it was a kind of a project that I started in the middle
of COVID. Really, actually at the beginning of COVID. I think the I made the Instagram
in May of 2020. And it just kind of it took off. We did a Kickstarter in August 2020 and
you know, raised $18,000, which in retrospect was really nothing.
You know, it was we did how Halloween set we did a Christmas set. I thought it was gonna
be like this cool little hobby thing. Right. And I was actually I was about to accept I
was doing like I was doing work for various banks and I was about to accept the position
was either between like Johnson and Johnson or Goldman Sachs going, you know, going back
to Goldman Sachs as a VP. But then March came 2021 and it really blew up. And so I was like,
you know, I'm gonna do this full time. And so for those cryptid lovers out there, this
is really the first TCG that's focused primarily on cryptids. And it's turning more into a
trading more into more than just a trading card game. It's it's we have a book that's
being released. We have animated shorts that will that will lead into an animated series.
And it's just one of those things where it's like, why is it don't ever done this before?
I think this is for the cryptic community. This is like this is the lightning rod. Right.
Yeah. They exist in all these kind of isolated communities throughout the US. You know, tens
of millions of fans. There's never been a single thing that's like in a rallying call
for them. I think Metazoo is that I think you just answered like literally every single
question I had written down in that one. I will see you later. I've enjoyed it. Yeah,
it was great. But so what made you decide to choose cryptids? Like was that like something
you grew up with? Like as a kid? And I know I've watched like a bunch of interviews with
you trying to like get to know you as a person before you came on. I know you that you grew
up in Brazil from like 17 or seven to 18 or something like that. So like cryptids like
big for you. I know you've run in America to like live in a place where they might be.
But I'm sure Brazil has their own. So what was what was the idea behind doing cryptids?
Like did you love Brazil? Brazil has, you know, it's a very Catholic country, but it's
also a country that saw a lot of mixing with the indigenous population. And so we had this
religion, religion slash culture called Candomblé, which is kind of this. He had these the idea
of worshiping kind of these local deities in the same way that in Catholicism you worship
saints. Right. Yeah. And so you have like a bunch of these creatures and spirits. And
it's actually almost more reminiscent to what you see with like forest gods, mountain gods,
river gods and like Japan. Right. Yeah. That are part of that Yokai subculture. And so,
you know, cryptids are different. My you know, obviously I knew what Bigfoot was growing
up. I knew what, you know, Chupacabra was. But really my first encounter was was Mothman
and Prophecies that came out in like 2003, 2004. Who doesn't love a good Richard Gere
movie? Yeah, it's very good looking dude. Right. And and it just it scared the ever
living crap out of me. I grew up Catholic, but it was like it was the first time because
I looked it up. You know, the the Internet back then was kind of crummy, but I was able
to look up, you know, that it was actually a true story. And so for me, it was it was
this weird thing where it was like, all right, this isn't like heaven or hell. It's not even
a ghost. It's not really an alien. It's like some sort of interdimensional thing. Right.
And it and I didn't know it at the time because I wasn't familiar with the literature. But
it was almost like the fear that I felt trying to contemplate that was like the fear that
you get when you think about kind of like Cthulhu or the other Lovecraftian kind of
like it's like an exis it's like an existential dread kind of thing. Yeah. It's like, what
the hell? I don't even know how to process this thing. Right. Yeah. That's why. That's
why I don't go into open water. Anything that I can't see or understand. I don't want to
be near. There you go. Yeah. I know. One out of five people who swim and disappear. Right.
So hold on. Is that a true statistic? It's more like half. But, you know, we just forget
about it. We forget about people that disappear. So, you know, it's yeah. No. Yeah. So like
it stuck with me. It stuck with me in my head. So when I was like 2018, I left my banking
job and attended grad school for my PhD. And, you know, one of my pastimes was really just
like collecting Pokemon, collecting magic, buying old collections. And like, you know,
I started getting obsessed with it, but I was obsessed with like vintage Pokemon. I
was obsessed with kind of the fringe forgotten about products like the major chocolate. You
know, I had like 50 boxes of the major like Pokemon chocolate that had like these really
cool holographic cards in them that no one really knows about. Right. You know. And then
of course I bought like dozens of of Watsi era Japanese boxes as well as as as English
boxes. Right. And back then, like you could get a base set Pokemon box for like 2500 bucks.
And I was able to buy it. I was able to buy an unlimited team rocket that had a rip in
the seal for 800 bucks. So like I accumulated all these things and I started deconstructing
what, you know, based on my experience in investment banking and that kind of stuff,
I was like, I was super interested in it from a product perspective. I was like, I'd love
to be able to do this myself. Like it sucks that like, especially with vintage stuff like
that. I feel like that magic is lost. The feeling of being a part of something that's
new and growing and getting in on the ground floor and and kind of growing up with it.
Right. So it's like I want to make my own card game. And so really it started in 2018
in earnest. Right. I started getting those inklings about doing something like that in
2016, but it really never didn't take form until I had enough time to kind of like do
this in my off time. Well, that was the one thing I loved about Medezoo too is that I
only found it because I was doing research for this show about the flat was monster.
And it was right around the time when UFO had either just released or was like halfway
through between UFO and science. And I immediately fell in love with it. But it was awesome because
I like the fact that it is like an it's a new it's a newer TCG, I guess, like physical
products have only been around since what, 2021? 21. So it's cool to be like kind of
at the beginning, every card I'm getting right now is first edition. But I did like that
you read did Cryptid Nation base set for the second edition, because when you're like a
collector or even if you're trying to play like, I feel like those cards are essential
and trying to buy a booster box for I guess, what are they going for now? Something ridiculous.
Like I couldn't afford that, but I can afford the second edition. Yeah. Yes. And that'll
change right? Like, you know, eventually second edition will run dry. And it's you know, people
it were in that weird stage where, like people look at at first edition that came out in
like, geez, when the first it came out in like, beginning of 2022. Right? Yeah. Like
second edition did. And it's like, people look at that and they're like, oh, like, it's
becoming a vintage product. It's like, it's a year old. Right? So people will lack this
perspective. People lack perspective, even with Pokemon, where Pokemon existed for three
years so longer than Medesu has been around in Japan before it came to the US. Right.
And you know, they it's kind of like that 24 hour news cycle thing where everything
goes really fast. And like, you know, Medesu started the Kickstarter era, but now the Kickstarter
era is done with right. And it's like, and all these things have happened. It's like,
it's been two years. Like, we're not even in that third year where we kind of really
go global. You know, we're pre IP, the book hasn't come out, the show hasn't come out,
the video game hasn't come out, but it's all coming out this year. And so like, we're right
at that point where we're going to hit critical mass. And you know, if you want to compare
it to Pokemon, it's like we're in that watsi era in Japan where, you know, they've released
the first few sets. And, you know, people are viewing kind of that release within the
context of the current fandom, not what the fan will be like 10 years from now. So it's
interesting. And you know, this probably better than most Medesu fans, the cryptid community
is huge. Yeah. And it's ravenous. Right. And so, you know, the other thing that we really
haven't tapped into, and I think your testament to that, you only found this stuff, you know,
midway between UFO and seance, the cryptid community really isn't aware of Medesu yet.
And you know, things like the water tower being at Loveland festival and, you know,
doing the Hodak stuff and Flatwoods and going to all these different festivals and holding
Medesu events there and showing them the power of the community and kind of inviting them
in. That's the start of that. And that happens this year as well.
I don't even know why I wrote these questions down again, because you just answered it.
I was going to say, did you like, you guys have been hitting the cryptid circuit, like
the festival circuit pretty hard. Even in the beginning, you're doing Mothman festival
and stuff like that. But yeah, you just did the water tower at Loveland, which was the
inaugural Loveland festival. But like you said, do you find that going to these cryptid
fests like you get Mothman coming up, stuff like that, that cryptid fans are kind of gravitating
towards Medesu?
It's interesting, right? Because this is going to sound like a convoluted answer, but when
we go to these festivals, they're filled with other creatives who are starting their own
businesses, right? And they want a part of that cryptid pie, so to speak. I think the
vast majority of cryptid fans aren't really activated yet in the sense that they might
be a fan of watching a Discovery Channel thing on a local cryptid. They might be a fan of
Supernatural and watching the Wendigo episode. They might even like Files, right? But they're
not going to conventions necessarily to discover a new trading card game, or buy like Snallygaster
whiskey, right?
They're there for the wrong reasons then, because I would only go, I would love to go
to Mothman Fest, I would love to go to all these, but the only reason I'd go is for the
vendors, like the art. People that go to those festivals already know the history and the
lore mostly of the cryptid they're going to, so to me it's more like a state fair or something
like that. You go, you check out the vendors, the food, what's new, what's not.
And I think that's only like 5% of the cryptid community. I think the other 95% are passive
fans, and I think they're passive fans because they haven't been given something legitimately
big and cohesive and inviting to kind of latch onto and become a part of, right? And I think
that Metazoo could be that larger cultural movement where you do have that kid that's
watching the Bigfoot special want to go out and buy a Bigfoot trading card, right? And
that's as you know, a Metazoo, you know, that particular Bigfoot show is sponsored by Metazoo,
right? And so we've seen adoption from a lot of cryptid fans among the vendors who are
in many ways actually kind of competing with Metazoo if you think about it. But because
you don't have critical mass of kind of those more passive cryptid fans attending these
festivals because they're more passive fans than active ones, we are still by and large
unknown to the cryptid community, which is interesting to think about.
Yeah, that's why I wonder how many people discovered Metazoo the same way I did, like
trying to find information about a cryptid and then just like stumbled upon. It's like
Flatwoods Monsters, my favorite cryptid alien story, just because it's so fucking like wild
and out there. I wonder how many people like looked up like, I don't know, like the Enfield
Monster and just like came across like the Enfield Monster card.
Yeah. And we're in this weird position where, you know, for a lot of these cryptids, we
are really the first way of like representing them. That's not just like some fan art that
someone posted on like the block or like DVD or something like that. Yeah. And in or, you
know, what the original reports were in a magazine or a newspaper from like 1930. Right.
Well, that's what that's what blew my mind. It blew my mind that like. The squonk in Metazoo
like blew up, you got like pocket squonk, you got like, like it was like a huge fan
favorite, but like that's like something that was written about like one time in a random
book somewhere, like a folklore book, and like it just blew up.
Yep. And that's that's one of those weird things about fandom, right? Like you never
know what what people are going to latch onto. Right. And you could have you can have an
idea of what will be popular. Like I knew Mothman was going to be popular. Right. Yeah.
Based on pre-existing fandom in the cryptic cryptic community, like before Metazoo. Right.
But you know, then people latch onto things that you never really expect. And you can
try and engineer it, but it's almost better to let it go on its own. Yeah. Because then
you get surprises like that. Right. And and it's kind of magical, too, because like like
he said, the squonk was written as a fearsome critter lumberjack thing in like a book published
in 1911. Right. And it's like and then all of a sudden, you know, that part of American
folklore history, because that's what it is, is now it'll never be forgotten. Right. Whereas
before it a lot of these things are at risk, especially some of the more esoteric or lesser
known ones are at risk of disappearing forever. Right. Yeah. From the cultural eye. Like those
books will always be there. But like who's looking for them? No one. Well, they gave
a shit about Squonk before Metazoo. You know what I'm saying? Like and so we can we can
kind of do that. And then what comes with that, especially with local cryptids, is,
you know, we have more and more festivals popping up. And when I talk to these organizers,
like you know, the they're like, yeah, well, hey, we know that there are a lot of Metazoo
fans that will come out to these things. And so we're going to put on a festival and we're
going to celebrate it, you know, in five years. If you ask them to do that, they would have
been like, we have no idea if anyone's going to show up. Yeah. Well, it's like actually
I think this year is the inaugural Squonkapalooza. Yeah. In Pennsylvania. And I'm doing my dandis
to get a table there so I can do like a like a live podcast from it or something like that.
But yeah, I do love these. I love the fact that Metazoo, it focuses on like the heavy
hitters. You got Bigfoot, Chupacabra, Mothman, all that stuff. But you do go into like some
of the more weirder, lesser known cryptids, which are what I want to focus this show on,
is like mostly like the these like the one off sightings kind of deals like the Anfield
Monster stuff like that. When you were doing research, like when you came up with the idea
to do Metazoo as a cryptid base, like how many of these did you already know? And how
many did you have to like really dive deep into finding some of these? Oh, my gosh, it
was months and months of research. I remember I remember my partner at the time getting
really pissed off because we went to Sleepy Hollow and for Halloween in 2019. So we were
there Sleepy Hollow 2019. You know, she was getting dressed up as as he was like Marilyn
Monroe or something. And I was on the on the on the bed. And I was like creating a spreadsheet
of hundreds of cryptids and and like wiki references to them, like newspaper references
to them. Yeah. Like, you know, you sound like you're doing research for the show. It is
so fun. And then and then you realize like just by like like one of the things that I
notice with a lot of like trading card games or just IPs that have to come out with new
generations of things is the character designs become very stagnant or they become very stagnant
or they become like very derivative of each other or they just go they go crazy. Right.
And then like the simple elements of character design that worked and made something memorable
or iconic. You move away from that because like you have to how do you add how do you
differentiate? Well, you just add more shit to a base design. It's like Digimon. They
have like that cool robot dinosaur looking thing. And then they also have like just like
an ice cream cone. Yeah. I base at Pokemon. It's like Blastoise is a turtle. Charizard
is an orange lizard dragon. And Venusaur is a is a frog with a plant on its back. Right.
Like, you know what I'm saying? Like you look at the current ones and it's like, what the
fuck am I looking at? And and so what I noticed as I was going through this is like it was
like it was it was kind of magical because I was like these things are like just by serendipity
by that these these occurrences happening kind of in their own bubbles over decades.
Right. They all looked with the exception of the goddamn Sasquatches. They all look
different. Right. Like and they're all super interesting. I mean, like the the if you look
at something like the van meter visitor. All right. Yeah. It's like a little dragon thing
with a pterodactyl with a horn and a light. And yeah, it shoots a laser out of its head.
That's pretty cool. And that's fundamentally different than, you know, Mothman. Mothman
is a big ass moth thing. Right. And it's like and that's fundamentally different than like
the the speed demon, which is like a circle with like like legs around it that rolls around
or a bait robber, which is like literally a crab with like a key and a lock for for
claws in like it picks locks and it's like, what the hell? Like you put like a bunch of
creative people in a room they'd never come up with. Yeah. And it's thousands of them.
It's thousands of them. And I, you know, when I initially started doing this research, I'm
like, oh, it's going to it's going to be rough because most of the famous ones are just variations
on Sasquatch because Sasquatch is by far the most popular one. So it makes sense. You got
Bigfoot, you got Skunk Ape. Yeah. It's basically all the same. But then you got you got like
Bat Squatch, though. Come on. Yeah. That's just is pretty cool. Right. You know, and
so you and so but like the people want their own local version of a very popular legend
because it makes it'll make people famous. And also, you know, you could say, well, maybe
they're they're accustomed to viewing something strange in a way that that they've already
kind of like seen before. Right. So if they've seen Bigfoot, Bigfoot, Bigfoot, Bigfoot, Bigfoot,
they're not going to get creative when they see something unknown that's shaped like a
man. There's like, yeah, it's another Bigfoot, but it has like green hair, as opposed to
like coming up with something unique. Right. But luckily, the farther the further you go
back in time, before, you know, Bigfoot dominated kind of the zeitgeist when it comes to sightings.
Right. You have a bunch of these like weird siloed stories. And all these like really
niche esoteric cryptids all look different from a design perspective. And so, you know,
again, back in Sleepy Hollow, I was I got in trouble because I spent the entire weekend
just like, like, literally just researching this thing. And then it turned into an obsession.
Right. Yeah. And I knew that I was going to do cryptids before that. But that was really
the first weekend that it turned into an obsession for me. And I created the first it wasn't
just cryptids. Right. It was spells and artifacts and things like that. I created a set list
of several hundred cards that ended up being the vast majority of the first three sets.
Yeah. Cryptids will do it to you, man. Like, once you start diving into it, like, it gets
a little intense. And people don't like and people like some of the earliest questions
that I got was like, you're not going to have enough cryptids for more than three sets.
Like, you have no idea. No idea. Like, like, this is entries of folklore that's untapped
that people don't know about. Right. And it's like, I almost view it as like, when, remember,
like, so, you know, the Grimm Brothers, like, storybooks. Right. Yeah. And the reason they
did that is because you had a bunch of print Prussian principalities, like dozens of them.
And they all had kind of like these little siloed urban legends and stories and myths
and fairy tales. And the Grimm Brothers were like, let's go around and collect these things.
Like, history changes, these stories are being lost and they resurface and sometimes they
disappear forever. So let's go around and collect them. Right. Yeah. And I think it
may have been an edict or may have been directed by some government. But I'm not sure. Right.
But like, but this is very similar. It's like, no one really, with very few exceptions, no
one's gone around and created. Now, there are some excellent resources online. I don't
want to belittle those. Right. Yeah. But no one's gone to the, I think, to the extent
that Medizou has to collect these things, put them under one single umbrella and be
like, this is American folklore. Yeah. And, you know, by the time that we finished the
block cryptid nation, we move on to Yokai Island and we have two more sets with really.
Yeah. Two, three more, two more sets. Right. We have three more sets. We have native war
and then CP. But I would say war is a rehash of everything else. Native and SCP is like
based on the SCP stuff. Right. And then so native is really the last time that you're
going to see new cryptids introduced. Yeah. But that'll be so we've had base set, we've
had nightfall wilderness, UFO, seance and native. That's six sets and hundreds of cryptids
that have been covered. So, you know, and it's primarily 99 percent of these cryptids
are American cryptids. I love the fact that you feel that way about cryptids saying that
it is American folklore and that a lot of these that you have in the set, that you are
bringing them to light to people that would never have heard of them. Like people might
have gotten it because of Mothman, Bigfoot, Chupacabra. But now they're finding out all
these other things. And it's good that these stories are being told. And that's actually
why like I kind of promote my podcast more to the Metazoo community than so the cryptid
community, because I feel like a lot of these cryptids are they love playing them. They
love but they might not know the story behind them. I'm sure you're you're fucking social
media team must hate me because I tag you guys in almost every single fucking post,
even if it has no love. These two. But like it's just like if you're as passionate about
cryptids as I am, and if you're playing a game based off cryptids, you probably know
the story and the lore behind them. And I love that you're saying that you that you're
trying to put them all together and bring together a community so that these things
don't get lost in time, because I feel like some of them do like I'm from New Hampshire.
And I'm going to be completely honest with you. The Woods Devil. I had never even heard
of the Woods Devil in New Hampshire. Well, until I found the card in Metazoo, which is
wild. Do you think I would know about it? Yeah. Well, I mean, and so it's almost like
how do you it's knowing your own history, right? Like, yeah, because I never knew that
I never even would have known that the Woods Devil existed. Yeah. And I still find like
new things, you know, writing the books and stuff like we're in this region of the US.
Like let me look up like what's in here. And it's like, God damn it. That would have that
would have made a really good card. But, you know, I made no to them because we're going
to we're going to eventually go back and create new sets that touch on Cryptid Nation, Yokai
Island and Grimm's Kingdom and all these things. Right. Yeah. But, you know, it's a delicate
process because you're going to have a lot of cryptid enthusiasts who are what I would
call purists. Yeah. And they're like, they're like the van meter or the Flatwoods story
is the Flatwoods story. We don't want to represent it as part of some larger story that's an
amalgamation of all these cryptid stories. And it's like, I understand. Like, but bear
in mind that the card, the place of the Flatwoods monster in the story, the way that we represent
him or her, rather, is is 80 percent accurate. And then we change it. But if you look at
any sort of folklore story, like story that that takes from the story and tries to put
it into a larger piece into a larger universe, you have to do that. You have to make the
pieces fit. Metazoo has a pretty deep lore behind it. And in the end, the lore of Metazoo
is a fictional story. So, I mean, you got to give a little leeway for what the cards
are. You know what I mean? And it's all well intentioned, right? Like we're not appropriating
these histories. We are we are adding them to a larger collective to enhance them so
that they are greater than the sum of their total, right? Yeah. Other individual parts
and giving them a spotlight where again, they haven't had that opportunity. And so, you
know, it's kind of like, again, looking at Lord of the Rings, when he revitalized certain
parts of dying, kind of parts of European mythos or folklore. And he like his representation
of elves was not the only de facto representation of elves. He took the representation as described
as he's like, you know, like beautiful, fair skinned, long haired, pointeered creatures
that lived forever and, you know, were at their hearts, peaceful, right? And he put
them in the story. And then of course, molded that clay to the shape of the story in a way
that made sense. But they were still identifiably elves, right? Yeah. No one and kind of like
with Metazoo becoming the de facto representation of a lot of these more niche cryptids. When
a lot of people think of elves, even when they're in the in creation mode, they don't
reference the earliest stories of elves. They reference Tolkien's elves, right? And so Metazoo,
if and when the lore aspect, the books go viral and they spread and whatnot, like Metazoo's
version of Mothman will be maybe the de facto idea of Mothman when people think about Mothman,
right? Yeah. We have the most consistent representation of Mothman. His role in our story is what it
is. But then what's really cool is if you want to do, if you want to dive deeper into
the basis of that lore, like there are like millions of sources on it. Yeah. And so I
don't view it as appropriation. I view it as a starting point for a real fan. It's like
a jumping off point for people who want to learn more about not just the lore of Metazoo,
but also for like the lore of the actual cryptid that is being represented. Exactly. Yeah.
And if you look at like, I think the one of the few original ideas that Tolkien had was
like the Uruk-kai, right? Which is like a mixture of elf with like corrupted man or
whatever, right? It was like, but then like elves, orcs, goblins, dragons, dwarves, you
know, and then of course hobbits, but the idea of little people were like, were well
known by them, right? Yeah. And so, you know, mixing existing lore or existing folklore
with some completely original elements, like the underlying story from Metazoo is like,
it's, again, it's enhancing. It's not taking away. No, I, yeah, I agree with that. So,
God damn it, you're answering all my questions before I can ask. I did want to know, like,
so when you were doing research on cryptids and figuring out like the cards and you know,
all that stuff, like how did you choose which ones you're going to do and which ones you're
going to put to the side? Yeah. So it's, it's an interesting process. And it's, it's hard,
right? Because so like originally the, the cryptid nation was supposed to be one set
and then the second set was supposed to be Yokai Island and then the third set was supposed
to be Grimm's kingdom. But it became such a, there's so many cryptids and so many things
that I wanted to do. I was like, like this has to be a whole block of sets, right? Yeah.
And but then you're like, all right, well, what do I put in the first set to make it
appealing enough so that people want more sets, but then how do you leave enough out
so that you can see the cool things into the new sets such that the follow-up to the really
cool first set is still really cool. Right. And like worthwhile. And so, you know, for
the base set, I, you know, so there are a few ways that you can do that, right? For
the base set, you obviously choose a bunch of really cool ones. Yeah. You got it. You
got it. The heavy hitters, right? Not all of them, but you got to get the good ones
right in there. And then, and then you rehash some of those heavy hitters and following
sets that are like thematic to them. Right. So yeah, you have a Mothman show up a nightfall,
you have Flatwoods Bonser show up in UFO, even though they showed up in the base set.
Right. Yeah. And, you know, same with Piazza Bird and Native and, and all these things.
And so, and then I was like, okay, so like, how do you define a heavy hitter in Metazoo?
You base it off of what's popular now. If you do that, the entire sets can be Sasquatches.
Right. Or I can look at them and I can say Piazza Bird is a, a Chimera dragon type thing
that breathes fire. And, you know, that's pretty cool. And that could probably, we could
probably make it look similar to a fire breathing dragon. That's, you know, and then say like,
oh, well, you know, that's kind of like, hey, that's a very Charizard looking card. And
then you can look at Mothman and you say, that's very, very different looking than Piazza
Bird, but it's just as cool. Right. And so color, shape, size, lore, these are all like
degrees of freedom and design where I'm like, I want, I want to be able to say, hey, every
aura has a cryptid that looks different. Kind of has, you know, a unique element to it.
That's like, again, if you look at Blastoise, Charizard and Venusaur, they, they're all
lizards, right? But they all kind of, they look sufficiently different. And, and one's
orange, one's green, one's blue, right? Or one's red, blue, green, right? And so I took
cues from that too, where I say, even now to my artists, I'm like, the auras and their
color scheme have to be sufficiently different from every other aura. Like if you look at
a lot of TCGs nowadays, they have different categories of creatures or whatever, but from
a color scheme and design perspective, it's hard to differentiate them. You can't like,
you know, and Magic used to do this really well, where it was easy to tell without the
border a white card, a white card from a blue card, right? Nowadays less so easy, I think,
right? And I would say with Pokemon, it's very difficult if you take away the border
nowadays to determine whether or not if you don't know the Pokemon, you're looking at
them. They're all over the place. Yeah. And so, and so for me, like my, my litmus test
to determine whether or not an art does justice to the aura that it's in is if I, if I take
away the border, can I still identify what aura it's from? Right. And so, yeah, again,
it's that balance between having the designs be sufficiently different. So we're not looking
at just a bunch of Sasquatches. And then of course, but then, but then, you know, to,
but then it's hard, right? Cause you choose quote unquote heavy hitters and people are
like, how dare you, you know, choose what's going to be popular. You don't know what's
going to be popular. It's like, yeah, but then like, of course we have to do that because
we have to determine like what cards are going to be rare. So we have to assume that like
some of these cards will be more popular than others. Like, like you have to, it's the same
process with kind of selecting a mascot for a set. It's like, I thought that sinkhole
Sam would be really popular cause he looks dope as hell and everybody hates him. I had
no idea that Squawk would be popular and everybody, you know, I thought that he was
just like one of the grossest fearsome critters. But people love them.
Well, he's the most relatable cryptid if you really think about it. Oh yeah. I know for
sure. Every time I, every time I phone goes black, I'm like, there you go, Squawk. Yeah.
It's like that, it's like that, it's like that Netflix meme where it's like, yeah, it
asks if you're still watching you catch your reflection. Like that, that is the Squawk
in all of us right there. Yeah. You know, but then I knew like Loveland Frogman would
be semi-popular. I thought Beast of Busco would be a bit more popular, but you know,
no one likes him. The Loveland Frogman though, like depicted as described in the actual lore
of it. I don't think it would be as popular as it is now. Right. I mean, yeah. The image
that you find when you look up, you know, Loveland Frogman is literally a JPEG of a
frog on a bridge upright with a staff in its hand. It's a nightmare. It's all, all bad.
Yeah. So with that one, I'm like, okay. So it has a staff that's supposedly shot off
sparks. So I told Kelsey, make it a wizard frog. And she's like, say less. And then you
have things like Cumberland Dragon, where, you know, it's a, like, I was like, man, like,
why aren't there more dragons in the US? Right. There are actually quite a few, but like this
one, like the Cumberland Dragon was described as a furry, it was described as an iguana
type lizard with like white hair. Right. I was like, okay, kind of gross. You know, and
so I told Victor who did the original art, I'm like in the design, I'm like, make it
kind of like a more foresty version of, you know, a dragon, right? Yeah. But like a kind
dragon, like one that with softer features, right? He was like, all right, cool. And then
he came up with the Cumberland Dragon thing. And so with some of these lesser known ones,
it's like we had the ability to dictate kind of the cultural image of what that cryptid
would look like. And now if you look up, you know, Wevlin frogmen images and there's fan
art, even if it's not in any way associated with Metazoo, it mostly comes up as like a
wizard frog, right? Obviously we will never be able to supplant the existing cultural
representation of Bigfoot. But I think with Mothman, if we get big enough, you know, certainly
our representation of Mothman is similar enough to the old representations. And yeah, it's
close enough that I know what it is. You know, if I had seen your representation of Mothman
and not known anything about Metazoo, I'd be like, oh, that's a Mothman. Yeah. Yeah,
I know for sure. So and kind of like, there's a benefit to that. And then there's a bad
aspect to that. The benefit of it is, you know, it is easier to bring in Mothman fans
into Metazoo because they can identify Mothman as being Mothman. The flip side of that is
because it's so similar. It's not, it may not be uniquely Metazoo enough to stand on
its own, where someone views it and says, oh, yeah, that's Mothman, but they don't instantly
recognize as Metazoo's Mothman. So, you know, it's, you know, in business, you know, 101,
you learn about there's a benefit to being like, so ubiquitous that like, when people
say tissue, they think about something that a piece of paper that you used to blow your
nose with, the tissue is actually a brand name, right? Like Band-Aid. Like Band-Aid.
Yeah. And so the brand name is so attached to the underlying object that it actually
replaces the word that's used in daily vernacular. But there, which is awesome. And the bad,
the flip side of that, the bad side of that, of course, is no one knows that it's a brand.
Right? Yeah. And so, yeah, it's interesting, right? In dealing with public domain creatures
like this, it's like, it's impossible to kind of get away with that unless, you know, you're
dealing with lesser known cryptids, but then you're dealing with lesser known cryptids
with a less pre-established fan base. Can I just say how smart it was to go public domain
cryptids for like, like that is hands down, like as a business and also like just like
financial decision to go like, brilliant. I applaud you for it. It was, it was a battle
for a long time in like 2018, 2019. I was like, I want to be able to say that I'm creative
enough to come up with my own IP. But like, why would anyone ever care? And then I, you
know, I started doing some research and really it started off with just looking at public
domain characters in general. And then it turned, and then I found kind of a Yo-Kai
that was listed. I think it was Basan, which is like a fire breathing chicken. And some
of the earliest cards that I made at home, it wasn't Mothman, it was this fire breathing
chicken. And then I was like, all right, so I got into the Yo-Kai hole. And then I was
like, well, Yo-Kai are really no different than like Bigfoot, right? And so I looked
at like what category Bigfoot fell under and was like, all right, cryptozoology. And then
that's how that cascade happened. And I was like, it makes sense. It's a lot less arrogant
for me to assume that I can create this IP. I mean, I think Metazoo wouldn't exist in
the TCG Kickstarter era wouldn't have existed had I assumed that I could create this IP
without tapping into a pre-existing fandom, right? That's a smart, smart idea. It took
a, you know, it took a kind of, it was a shot to the ego to be like, I really want to be
the creator of something original, but I'll take the ability to create an original collection
of them, right? A representation of them. And I'm glad that I was able to kind of swallow
my ego on that because otherwise, you know, it would still just be a few posts on Reddit,
you know, talking about the cool game of blobs that I wanted to create or some shit like
that. Do you take into consideration like the lore of the creatures when deciding like
it's attacks, it's health damage, like that sort of stuff? Like when you're, when you're
creating the cards? Yes. In fact, it's, it's like our mantra in R&D where it's like, you
have to like beat it into them, right? Cause they're, they're like, it, we were not game
pieces. Like we're not, even like chess as like game pieces, their moves and their mobility
across the board reflects kind of the power of the underlying, like royalty status of
the, of the, of the, of the pieces, right? Of the characters. So like a king, you know,
a queen can, can like a pond can only move forward one. It can only attack diagonally.
A horse can do the L shape jump. It can, and it can jump over pieces. Yeah. And being kind
of like, it can only move in a certain way. Cause like, you know, it's, it's in like the
rook and the, and the, it's, it's, it's fascinating, right? But then you look at like checkers and
it's like every piece is the same, right? Unless you get to the side and you can, you
can clean it, right? And so, you know, my, my mantra is like, we're not checkers. Like
these, these creatures exist in the world, you know, for a lot of people. And so their
abilities should reflect kind of the lore in an important way, right? So Mothman literally
has a prophecy based move that's associated with it. And like Beast of Busco, like it
has kind of like a hungry hippos thing associated with it. And that ties into the, the fourth
wall effects of Metazoo really well, where it's like the, the real world impacts the
cards because these cards exist in the real world, right? Yeah. And, and vice versa, the
cards impact, you know, like it's, it's, it's meant to be a story that we're telling. And
you know, that gets lost in translation, sometimes in R and D and play testing where we have
a certain goal for a set and the pieces all have to have synergy with each other and they
have to have synergy with other sets. And sometimes it's easier just to have like a
card that has a certain function that is needed. But then it's like, all right, we have, that's
like the baseline functionality of the card. Now we have to add a little bit extra, like,
and so we're, we're almost like, we have doubled the task of a lot of other TCGs where, you
know, you look at like Pokemon cards and they'll have like a Beedrill and Beedrill will have
an attack like Horn Drill. And then we'll have, yeah, but then we'll have like another
attack that is clearly just a game function that's meant to be associated or drive the
meta in a certain way. Yeah. And then you have like, you know, but then you also have
some, even some Pokemon cards where like a Meowth for instance, will have like a payday
related move that has some sort of like that move and its function in the game actually
reflects the fact that you're dealing with this cat that has coins associated with it.
That's like really, really base level though. Like we go above and beyond with some of these
Medazoo character cards where it's like the functionality is a reflection of the lore
and sometimes it's more obvious than others. And sometimes it's like, you really have to
dig into the lore in order to find it. But if it's not obvious, if you like, I've had
it, you know, there's been some difficulties in play testing where a card will change because
they're looking at it merely as a game piece and the lore lost. And I'll be like, I know
the lore of this cryptid. I know what the game, I know what the card does. I can't connect
the lore to the functionality of the card in any way. That's bad. Right? Like we needed
to do better than that. And so, you know, that's a lot of the R and D and play testing
processes making sure it functions as a game, but also making sure that we stay true to
the lore in some sort of functional way.
Yeah. Well, that brings me to my next question is about the playability of the game. The
fourth wall effects are hands down one of the best things I think has come from a TCG
in a while. Like I think that adds a lot. Like a Bigfoot gains invisibility with fear
like what, within a mile of a forest or something like that. I know one of the first big pulls
I got, I opened a UFO booster box and I got a mini T-Rex and one of his fourth wall effects
is if you're wearing a cowboy hat, like you gain something like those added effects make
the game so much more than a game I feel like. Cause if I walked, like I don't play regularly
or enough to even be competitive, but if I walk into a room and a bunch of people wearing
cowboy hats, like, Oh, I know exactly what's going on. Like that addition makes it so much
better to me. I think it adds more of a personal like touch to it.
Exactly. And, and it allows people to express the weird side. And like, I know people that,
that run decks that allow them to wear certain things to events because that's what they
like to wear, right? It allows them to connect to the game in a way that you can't really
get with, with other TCGs. And so it's one of the, it's, it is undoubtedly the biggest
innovation of Metazoo. It's also the biggest sticking point that people look at and they're
like, this isn't, this makes it unplayable. And it's like, no, you just have to be creative
enough. Plus the ease of playing Metazoo, like getting into it. Like, I feel like entry
level, like you don't have to know a lot of like about TCGs to be able to play Metazoo
from the beginning. You know what I mean? Like it's, it's very simple to start, but
the, like the ability to go from like just a basic, like if I bought like a spell book
that was pre-made, I could easily play it. But the ability to like the ceiling of, I
don't know how to describe what I'm trying to say. You probably know what I'm trying
to say. Like the intricacy of what you can do with a deck with Metazoo is wild.
You can teach a, so again, going back to chess, you can teach a four year old how to play
chess. And so the, the, the entry level to chess is, is really, really, really, really
low. But the ceiling on, on it, on the complexity is like infinite. And that's good game design.
Right. Like, and I would say there are a lot of TCGs out there where the entry is really
low, but the ceiling is also kind of low. And you have things like MTG where it's like,
um, I would say the entry level is a bit more advanced and the ceiling is a bit more advanced.
Um, and then you have other games like Yu-Gi-Oh! where it's, it's interesting. Like the, the
entry level is, is weird because the meta, it's, it's almost like with, with Yu-Gi-Oh!
you have to have been playing for years in order to hop in. And that's because the meta
of the cards is so, the meta of, of like a new set release is so responsive to what's
happened in years prior. That if you haven't, if you can't trail that history to why card
has a certain function that it has, then like, it's hard to integrate it and synergize it
with the rest of your deck. Um, and, and that's why, like a lot of games have like set rotations
and things like that, where, uh, cards from older sets, um, are no longer viable in competitive
play or legal and competitive play. Um, and that's also, it's also easier for R&D because
they can say like, all right, I have this universe of cards that pre-exist that I have
to take into account when making new cards. Um, and, and that makes it easier to avoid,
uh, combos of cards that can break the game. Right? Yeah. And so we haven't, we haven't
gotten that quite yet with Metazoo where, um, cause every card that's ever been printed
is legal. Um, we haven't gotten to the point where it's too much of a task for the play
testers or R&D to consider, um, all the different combos of cards. Obviously that's like impossible.
Uh, but like no one's broken the game yet. Yeah. And, and my, again, one of the, my other
mantras in R&D and play testing is like, try and break the game. Uh, and when you're, when
you're, when you're play testing it, use all sorts of cards from other sets. And when you're,
when we're creating new cards, um, synergize with other sets as well, not just within the
set that we're creating. Um, and that creates value for older sets because people will be
like, Oh wow, the set that came out or this card that came out in native six sets later
synergizes really well with this card that came out, um, in cryptid nation a few years
ago. Um, let me go open up a cryptid nation box and see if I can pull this card. Right.
Um, but, but you know, as we move into Yokai Island and things like that, um, there, there
will be a moment where we miss something, right? Yeah. It's just, it's inevitable with,
with as many cards and as, as, as many sets as we're releasing, uh, eventually we will
hit the spot where we miss something and then we'll have to respond accordingly. But, um,
my goal is that the response is never, okay, just ban this card. Right. Um, my response
is like, what can we release in an upcoming promo set or an upcoming set that, um, balances
this in a way that no longer makes it broken. Right. Um, so yeah, like that's, you know,
we saw it like with Castor's cup last year, we had, um, these pseudo environments, which
were, you know, these beautiful environments that kind of dictated what fourth wall elements
you were playing in. And, um, because of that, I assumed that people would in this blitz
format that they would be able to, that they'd be forced to create decks that, um, took advantage
of this fourth wall effects, but there were so many meta driving decks that were powerful
enough that some people just ignored the pseudo environment entirely and still one. Right.
And so going into the towers, I'm like, okay, um, the towers are pseudo environments, but
we're multiplying the fourth wall effects, um, by three. And so now, um, even if we didn't
have the restriction on the number of, of aura specific cards that you could have in
a deck, like a minimum of 60 water cards for the water car, right. Um, it would still behoove
you to, um, play water cards as opposed to, uh, you know, running a, a Quetzal, a Quetzal
card and, and dominating with electric, uh, lightning deck, you know? Yeah. Um, but to
go back to like the, the, the playability of the game, the one thing I liked about Matt
does it too, is that the, the texts for like your attacks and like your abilities, like
that was so easy to read compared to, so I was into magic back when I was in high school
and then I got back into it probably around, I don't know, 2018 ish. And that's a big jump
from like 2006, 2005 to go 13 years without playing a game and collecting it and going
back into it. And so much had changed that like they were basically, it's the most convoluted
wording of the most simplest things and you guys spell it out on your cards. You know
what I mean? Like it's, it makes it so much easier. And I, so when I got back into it,
I jumped into like magic, you know, Facebook groups and stuff like that. And the amount
of gatekeeping and like assholery in those communities, I think it's because it's a TCG
that's been around for so long. Like my only, the only responses I would get asking for
clarification would be like, just like get good fucking nerd. You know what I mean? And
it's like, the one thing I love about Metazoo is that I hopped into it. I say late, but
I mean in reality I'm only, you know, a year and a half late. The Metazoo community has
been so welcoming and so like ready and willing to help whether it be like, Hey, I got this
card. I have an extra like, what's the worth on it all the way to like, I'm trying to build
a deck. And I had people messaging me like friend requests just to be like, I'll help
you out. Like it's been the most welcoming community that I've ever been in. And as far
as TCGs go, and it's amazing that you were able to like create that. That only, this
isn't really a question. I guess I'm just rambling at this point. I just want to say
thanks man. Like, like you helped build a community around a product that I don't feel
like I'm being ostracized from for not knowing anything about. Does that make sense?
Yeah. And that, it has a lot to do with the fact that the community was, was and remains
so involved with the growth process, right? You know, we're not some big ass company that's
like, you know, when we, when we get feedback, like our, our play testers are our fans, right?
Like, and a lot of our employees were initially fans as well that, you know, had a certain
skill set that we brought on. And so like, it's always been a very collaborative community
and we've all kind of gotten to this point together. You know, that being said, but like,
you know, the toxicity is like impossible to avoid. And, and, and it's an industry wide
problem, not just in card games, but like in collectibles in general. Right? Like, and
you know, and I talked about this stuff with like the heads of, of collectibles, uh, based
companies that are worth billions of dollars. Like, and I'll be sitting down and like, and
talk to them about like, Hey, so like you, you print, you're the biggest, you know, printer
of sports cards in the world. Like, how do you deal with toxicity in your, in your, you
know, your fandom and your client base. And it's just like, it's just the way that it
is. Um, and I don't know, I would almost like, I hate to say that like it's inevitable, especially
since there are like already like really, really toxic parts of the community.
Yeah.
Uh, I don't know.
I think the toxicity comes more from, it depends on whether you're a player of the game or
just a collector. You know what I mean? Like the players of the games, at least like in
magic and like Pokemon and stuff like that, the, the, the players, the people that really
appreciate the property and what's going on, they're the ones that are the most helpful
and they're the ones that will guide you to where you need to be. The collectors in both
magic and Pokemon, they're just there for, they want to buy up all the stock, resell
it at a fucking price that no one can afford just because they can. You know what I mean?
The toxicity comes, I feel like from those people, but with Metazoo, I feel like both
collectors and players, they both so far have been pretty amazing to communicate with.
Yeah. And I think that it's, it's, it's a, that, that those toxic elements are there,
they're very like, they're much smaller percentage. There really are. It's hard to cut you off,
but like, so I think, I think you guys reached out to me for this interview like a month
ago, maybe less than that. And as soon as I got like the okay to interview you, I went
to like a couple Facebook groups and be like, Hey, is there any questions they want to ask?
Like, what should I ask them about? Blah, blah, blah. And as soon as someone posted
anything negative, everyone jumped in and just like, like, fuck you, dude. Like he's
not going to ask that question. Like, you mean like, why would he do that? I mean, like
there are some bad actors, but I feel like they're just more pissed off by like, I don't
even know, dude. Like it's just nonsense bullshit that like no one cares about like, and everyone
called them out for like the communities there behind you. You know what I mean?
Yeah. And, and, and, you know, there's, it's so interesting because people, they experience
something like Metazoo in so many different ways, right? Like, yeah. You have players,
you have collectors, you have people who are investors, you have people who are for those
different categories. They are on either the crazy spectrum of like their diehard fan,
diehard collectors, diehard players, diehard investors, or they're super, super passive
collectors, super, super passive players or, you know, passive investors or some combination
of them. Right. Yeah. And so, you know, I don't know. It's, it's, it's interesting to
see that kind of develop. I'm excited for this year, a new type of fan to come out,
which is like based on the lore and the IP, right? So people who, you know, they're, they're
not collectors necessarily or players or investors. They just love the Metazoo story and they
love the, the, the book. They love the, the animated show. They love the, the video game.
And that's, and each of these things are fine. Right. Like they're, they exist because Metazoo
is complex enough for those different types of fandoms to exist. Right. And there's a
place for all of them, but then you have people who were just like, um, they've made it, they
made it their job for years to just like, they, it's like, and I, man, I experienced
this when I was like launching Metazoo, I had people who hated the fact that I was trying
to start a TCG. They hated it. They're like a new TCG hasn't been made in 20 years. That's
like taking off like, but that's so gatekeepy though. Like, I know, I know. I'm telling
you, I had, I had the, the marketing head, uh, I reached out in 2020 to the marketing
head of, of a major, major, major of the major, uh, game board and game reviewing forum. Uh,
I think it's called board game geek. Right. Um, and I was like, I want to pay you like
I want the $2,500 package to advertise the Kickstarter, the very first Kickstarter, uh,
on your website. Right. And he turned down my money and he says, um, the game is never
going to work. Um, and I'm not going to take your money, um, out of respect to, uh, the
users on the forum. I don't want to, I basically didn't want to spam them. And I'm like, okay.
Um, it was the weirdest thing, man, but, but it was indicative of, of the, of the belief
then that, uh, a TCG couldn't take off. And now of course, over the past two, two and
a half years, um, the TCG category has outpaced, um, the board game, um, category for Kickstarter.
And it took like, oh my gosh, it took two years for Kickstarter to finally reach out
like a representative and to be like, oh cool. Like, thank you so much. And like, what can
we do to work together? Like we, we, even last year, a year ago, we ran, um, a $2 million
Kickstarter for, um, our playing cards. Right. And we weren't featured anywhere. No one wrote
articles about it. I got a pack of those kicking up on myself right now. Yeah. And it's like,
we were the one, I think we were like in the top 10 Kickstarter's running at that time,
that month. And like, there's no feature. There was no, like, and then you look at all
the other top 10 ones and like Kickstarter was doing like, uh, media press, like posts
about it and they were doing interviews and stuff like that. And so even among the, uh,
the crowdfunding community, especially among the crowdfunding community, even at the top
level, even after Metazoo success, there's still this like weird cultural belief that,
uh, oh, it's not going to work out. Like even though it's worked out, like, yeah, even if,
even if Metazoo like tomorrow just disappears, um, there's no, there's no doubt, like there's
no way to contend with the fact that we've been a massive success.
No, you guys definitely made a cultural impact in the TCG community as well as like the cryptic
community. I feel like that's me though. I have no idea. I fucking, who am I? I'm a
podcaster getting drunk on a Sunday. You know what I mean? Like, but no, I, yeah, it's,
but I mean like that's, that's the same with podcasts. If that makes any sense, like during
the 2020 pandemic, like whenever it was locked in their house, the amount of podcasts that
boomed because people were bored and they, everyone thought they wanted to hear their
shitty takes on whatever's happening in the world. Like it was wild. So like I had a podcast
at the time that I started about like pop punk and hardcore music and we lasted for
about two and a half years and it didn't work, but I don't know where I'm going with this,
but I just want to say I get kind of this, like where you're going, we're like, no one's
going to take you seriously. Like why would you start a podcast at this point? There's
so many, like the same thing with TCG is like, who's going to take you guys seriously? There's
a billion of them. You got Pokemon, you know, Yu-Gi-Oh, Magic, Flesh and Blood, like why
even do it?
And at the time Flesh and Blood was like, it wasn't a Kickstarter based one, but it
was like, you know, it was just booming and stuff like that. And it was like, and people,
I even had like people who were interested in Metazoo and they're like, Flesh and Blood
is like a lightning in a bottle event. Like it will never happen again. And then Metazoo
outpaced it. And it was like, it's so weird. Like last year we did 50 million in revenue,
which is like half of what the, the revenue, the annual revenue was for tops. Like the
largest other than Pokemon, like the larger, largest printer of cards, like in the world,
right? And it's like, but like I haven't been invited on CNBC to discuss this thing.
Like it did make news when we sent the first trading card game into space. So it's, we've
been fighting this like cultural perception of, of new TCGs and we're still finding it.
I saw a Twitter post yesterday about Metazoo where it was like, yeah, Metazoo will never
be like a TCG. It's just a pump and dump because it was started by some white dude in his garage.
And it's like, man, like where'd we been for the past two and a half years? Like, like
we're a legit company, you know?
First of all, every business ever has been started by a white dude in his garage. Is
that not, you got Amazon?
Every startup has been some person in their garage, like, it can work, right? And it's
like, and it's like, I don't know. It's weird. We're fighting that to this day. And I feel
like even when the show and the book and the video game and all these things come out,
maybe then once we hit critical mass, maybe then it won't matter as much, but because
we're, we're still operating primarily among TCG fans, they have this idea in their head
that it has to be started by a major company.
It has to be like a Wizards of the Coast game for anyone to take it seriously.
Yeah. And it's like, but then you feel like it Wizards of the Coast. I mean, if you look
at Magic the Gathering, it was literally started by some dude in his garage.
Yeah, but also Wizards of the Coast is fucking everything up for D&D so they can get flocks,
I guess. Like even Pokemon was like, yeah, we're bouncing. We're going to just do our
own shit.
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. It's, it's.
Not to talk shit about Wizards of the Coast. I appreciate the things they've done, but
also they're a bunch of asshole, but maybe it's Hasbro. I don't know.
Yeah. I don't know nearly enough about that to, to, to comment on it, but I do know that,
you know, with the moves that we're making this year will hopefully establish us as a
larger IP and kind of break away from that cultural perception.
Yeah.
But in order to do that, we have to become more than TCG. And that's, and that's where
I think the larger cryptid community can kind of, if we can mobilize them and activate them
as fans, then like, you know, but you know, we just have to be super clever and we've
been clever so far. We just have to continue to do that.
Well, you guys have been, you've done a lot of collabs with a lot of people. You had the
rugs, you had the dimmock, yeah. Revive skateboards, all that stuff. Actually, I have a few suggestions
if you want to hear my collab suggestions. Yeah. All right. So I think you should collab
with a brewery and come up with Metabrew. Ooh. Zoo brew. Brewzoo. Zoo brew. I think
Metabrew is. I think. See the issue with Meta is like, I came up with that name before the
whole NFT stuff. Yeah. So anyone who sees Metabrew, they're going to associate it with
like the NFT bro culture. So I think. Yeah. So for the, so I'm going to be honest with
you. I, so I, I noticed Metazoo back in like 2020, 2021 and I saw the word Meta and my
immediate thought was Mark Zuckerberg. Yeah. And I had no idea what Metazoo was even about
and I saw Meta and I was like, nah, dude, I'm good. Yeah. Yeah. So we're handling that
too. But I think with NFTs kind of falling or becoming less relevant or less associated
with the word Meta. Right. Yeah. I think what we're going to see is, is that kind of cultural
perception shift in terms of like when people see Metazoo, they don't necessarily associate
it with the Metaverse. Yeah. Just because of, of cultural shifts. Right. And that's
not to say that NFTs are necessarily bad, but you know, we did have, we do have a lot
of people who I think would, would love Metazoo who saw Meta, saw that we did do some NFTs
and we're like, oh yeah, it's just an NFT thing. Right. But it's so much more than that.
Yeah. Well, I mean, I mean, NFTs are bad for the environment. Kind of. Right. Isn't that,
I think I read that somewhere. I have no idea. So there are a bunch of arguments going for
or against that. But, but I'm not going to, I'm not educated enough to talk on that. Neither
am I. So we should probably just move on. But it's kind of like, all right, so if we
did do a beer, right, then it's like, well, how many people die of alcoholism or alcohol
things a year? And it's like, are you supporting that? And it's like, can't win. Right. Like,
I'm from New Hampshire where we don't believe in, there's no seatbelt law or helmet law
for motorcycles. So I, I was whatever. All right. So Metabrew I think is one, I think
that's a good one. The other one is a, a line of aquariums for the home called Weta Zoo.
No. Okay. All right. I like aquariums. The other one was, you remember the zebra striped
gum? Yeah. Yeah. All right. So Metazoo themed gum called Metachu. We were actually going
to work with Tops on some of that because Tops actually owns a zoo. Wait, question.
Wait. Yeah. Are you going to do the old school like TMNT booster packs that had the stick
of gum in them? So don't tell me you're going to do it. So interestingly enough, we are,
we are doing something with TMNT. Wait, what? And we're going to be announcing that relatively
soon. I think you just did. I think you just did. It's still in the works though. But you
know, it's, it's, it's based on a series of collaborations that, that Metazoo will be doing in conjunction
with a new company called Mothman Collectibles. I'm starting, it's a printing company. So it's,
it's printing as far as what like t-shirts? No. So it's, you know, we have this amazing
printer that we all but own and we're, we're approaching other IPs and other big artists
and stuff like that. We're saying, Hey, like let's print cards with you. And if you want
to associate it with Metazoo, we can do that as well. So they're going to be, it should
be interesting. And we're, we're, we've already kind of nailed down some major collaborations
for that. And so it'll be interesting way of feeding in new or preexisting IP in a new
way into the Metazoo universe and kind of like activating that fan base in the same
way that doing revive activated the skateboard community into being fans of Metazoo and vice
versa. Right. So it's like, you know, in terms of collaborations, there's a bunch of stuff
that we can do, but what are your other suggestions? My other, my other collaboration was, uh,
hook up with a cheese company and do Feta zoo. Ooh, that'd be interesting. Um, a cheese
company. Yeah. Like we haven't even tapped. Please do not write that down. No, no, no.
But we haven't even tapped into like on the beer note, on a cheese note, like the whole
collaborating with like restaurants and things like that. I think, I think, I think meta
brew would be actually really good. Like if you gave me like a fucking, like a Wendigo
pale ale or like a, like a flatwoods monster Pilsner or something, you know what I mean?
Like, obviously you don't name it that cause that's, those are dumb names. You know what
I mean? Like, yeah, no, it's definitely been on our radar and we've, we've talked to a
few companies about it. Um, but I think if we were to do it, doing it with like a local
brewery that's, and there are already cryptid related breweries, um, or brew like beer brands
that we could collaborate with. Well, we're on from in New Hampshire, a six Oh three brewery.
Uh, they already have a, uh, uh, woods devil, like stuff like that. Yeah. And there's like
a bat squash one that I've seen. Yeah. Rogue does bat squash. And then they do, there's
another one I can't quite remember what it is. I don't remember, but I definitely, since
this is a cryptid podcast that focuses around me drinking beers with my guests, I'm all
in. So maybe you sponsor, um, that's cool. Yeah. I know it's something that's like on
my, my wish list, you know, like it's, it's on my, my, which is like, my wish list is
like a thousand entries, right? Of like things that, you know, I want to do with Metazoo
in terms of collaborations. Um, but yeah, no, no, these are all good ideas. I'd say,
I don't know if they're all good ideas. Yeah. The, the, the Feta zoo, you know, we might
have to table that one, but, uh, well, I also don't think what a zoo with the, uh, aquariums
is a good one, but you know, what is it? All right, man. Well, we're coming up with almost
an hour and a half. So I guess, I guess we should probably talk about like, uh, you got,
you got a new, you got a new set coming out. Yeah. A new native. So I guess this is probably
a heavy question right off the bat, but so with native, I assume it's going to be mostly
like first nations, native American, like it's going to be that kind of lore going into
this set. Right. Right. So I guess my question to you is how did you navigate doing native
while also being respectful to the culture that it exists? Like as far as like cryptids
go, like they're pretty localized, like Mothman is West Virginia, same thing with Flatwoods
Monster, Sasquatch, Bigfoot is more like Northwest American, but with like native American culture
and lore, it's not so much a story that someone told one time when they saw the metal man
of Falkville. How did, how did you navigate doing native while like being respectful to
the culture that it represents? Cause even with like the Wendigo, like you've, you've,
you've featured native American lore in your stories before with like the Wendigo, uh,
even if it's not like the most accurate description of the Wendigo, how, how did you navigate
this set to make sure that you weren't basically alienating a whole fan base? If that, if that
makes sense. And you know, to your point, we've, we've had like even some like walking
salmon base set is from the Lakota tribe. And so we've had like cryptids, um, and other
creatures, um, or entities associated with indigenous populations throughout all of our
sets, right? You can't escape. Um, but like for this set specifically, you know, we've,
we had, um, indigenous artists involved. Um, and that's gonna be a big part of kind of
the, the gala we're going to be auctioning off some of those pieces for the foundation,
um, in support of, you know, indigenous charities and things like that. And then we also, um,
we spoke with different tribal leaders and experts. Um, our artists Afton actually went
and worked with some, um, indigenous artists to make sure that she could use, um, different
types of inks and pigments that were derived from, um, uh, plants and different herbs that
were like relevant to their culture. And so, yeah. And so like, look, there's always going
to be like, even with like cryptids, we've gotten backlash because if you look at like
moth man, it's associated with a story, um, where a bunch of people died and a lot of
those people, um, have living relatives, right? And so, you know, and here we are putting
him in a card game and, you know, making a bunch of stickers of him. And, and, you know,
it, it, it, it's very sensitive no matter what you do, because these, these stories
and these creatures exist in the real world. And, um, if we only selected cryptids or creatures
or entities that didn't have some sort of dark background to them, we would have like
several dozen for the entire block of sets. You know what I'm saying? Like, and so, and
so there has to be some, not hand waving, but, um, some, there's, there has to be some
sort of like allowance creatively where we say we're dealing, we're dealing with heavy
things. Let's be respectful. Um, and let's, let's tell the story as accurately as we can,
going back to what you were saying before, while still making it part of this larger
universe. Yeah. Um, and the only exception to those things really are, are, um, you know,
the fearsome critters, like even like the fearsome critters, which you might think are
like the most innocuous stories that you can possibly tell or like, um, they're really
associated with the deaths and disappearances of like lumberjacks during the lumberjack
era of the late 1800s, early 1900s. Um, and they were told as like campfire, you know,
tales of warning, like basically don't go out at night if you're too drunk in the forest
alone. Right. Um, like the hide behind was literally something that would hide behind
trees and then attack, um, ill like lumberjacks. And now there's so much distance between that
thing, that those stories and those people that died that now we can kind of look at
the hide behind and be like, ha ha, isn't it cute? It's like a little stick to your
thing. And, and, you know, but it's, it's, I view it and that's like kind of the negative
way of viewing it. The positive way of viewing it is like what we already discussed, which
is a lot of these indigenous stories are dying on the vine. Um, and, and you only have to
look at their languages and how every year, um, you have languages that die out because
they no longer have people practicing them, um, that are related somehow to the deep cultural
history of, of the Americas, um, and the old cultures that used to exist here. Um, and
so, you know, and I've seen this debate happen on the discord where two people from, um,
uh, Puerto Rico were discussing, um, a native character that we spoiled. And, uh, one person
was like, you know, this is a deity, my religion. Um, and, you know, I'm not sure like if this
is respectful and you had another person who was also part of that religion saying like,
they're like dozens of us, um, who, who worshiped this, this deity or, you know, find importance
of it in it. And like, no one's telling the story except for Medezoo. And this is a way
of bringing cultural awareness to something that is otherwise disappearing. And that,
you know, it goes again, it goes back to, um, us doing this with cryptids, right. And,
and how all these cryptids were disappearing as well. And we were, we're, we're giving
them a second chance. And that sounds like a very noble way of representing something
that, but like, you know, at the end of the day, like, again, if we didn't do that, if
we didn't do any of this, then like Medezoo wouldn't exist. So it's like, I think that
you have to take the, the, the riskier elements of it or like the more sensitive elements
with it and say, we're doing enough good, uh, to warrant that. And I think, I think
that we are, especially with how we're giving back to these cultures as well.
Oh yeah. No. So, uh, you brought up that, uh, you're going to be doing, uh, the Medezoo
Gala for, for native and you're going to be auctioning off the, like, so I want to talk
about the Medezoo foundation. Uh, you guys are doing a lot of work with, for, uh, autism,
disabled vets, that kind of stuff. Is it like, is it one of those things where like, can,
can we find a place to donate money to the Medezoo foundation or?
Not yet. It'll be like event specific things. Um, and that's just because we want to tailor
that experience and make sure that people know that like, Hey, within this one hour
period where we sold $50,000 worth of cards for autism, like that $50,000 is like what
the foundation made in the fall. And that's like what we donated to. Um, like it's easier
to keep things above board. If you, at least from a public perception standpoint, if you
tie money raising to very specific big events, then just having something that people can
donate to passively on like a website. Gotcha. Um, that makes sense. You don't want to make
it look like a money laundering scheme or anything like that. Exactly. Yeah. No. And,
and you know, that might change in the future where, you know, the foundation becomes really
big. And, but I'm also like, well, we also want to do is add a bunch of different cryptid related,
uh, museums and, and, and, uh, other, you know, other representations and efforts of
these local communities to preserve cryptid history. Like we want to, we want the foundation
money to go to that as well. Gotcha. Um, and so like, you know, the big, the big foot museum,
um, the museum of paranormal and crypto zoology, um, in Portland, yeah, yeah. In Portland. And then
there's also flatwoods monster museum. There's like all these different museums that struggle
to get by. And like the medicine foundation can be a way of, of giving them the support that they need
from the largest cryptid community in the world, right? Cryptid fan community in the world, which
is medicine. Yeah. That's great. Um, well, I'm kind of out of questions now. I guess we're coming
up an hour and a half. I don't know how much more time you got. I probably have to hop off in like
five minutes, five minutes. All right. Well, how about this? Do you have any questions for me?
Yeah, I think, uh, I think not questions, but you know, I think that you wanting to tailor,
tailor your podcasts and metasue fans make sense, but I think you should, if possible, you know,
maybe you, you, you should be the podcast that's the bridge between the larger cryptid community
and the metasue community. That's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to do that. Yeah. I think that'd
be cool. I'm trying to, I feel like we all fell in love with these cryptids or beasties as they're
called in the metasue community, but I feel like a lot of people in the metasue community don't know
the stories behind what they're playing as, you know what I mean? Like that's why when, uh, you
guys did the, the water tower, the Loveland frogman, I scrambled to get a Loveland frogman episode
out. You know what I mean? I, I feel like if you're in love with these creatures as much as I am,
you should know the lore behind them. Exactly. And I think that's what I, that's what I'm trying to do.
Well, I think, I think, uh, podcasts like this are going to be an important part of, of metasue
and cryptid history as we kind of collectively move forward. Yeah. So yeah, man, you're doing
great job. I appreciate that, man. Um, all right. Well, I guess it's the end of the episode. Do you
have anything you, I mean, obviously you're going to, you want to plug, you got your new release
coming out, native. Is there anything you want to tell the community as a whole what's going on?
Metasue's future. I know you got Yokai Island coming out after war, I believe. Yeah. Well,
so we talked about all of that. So I think I'll leave with like more general message, which is
like, be kind, um, you know, support all, you know, all metasue fans, bring in new metasue fans,
like be a welcoming community and, uh, just, you know, continue being awesome. And, uh, let's,
let's go into 2023 and grow metasue into, into something more than it's been and, and have this
year be the start of something great. Oh, I love that, man. That's a good message. All right. Well,
thank you so much for listening, everyone. Uh, thank you again to Mike for hopping on with me.
Uh, let's see, uh, please leave a rating and review on apple, Spotify, wherever you can.
Also, if you are a metasue collector and you need your cards graded, we did partner with AGS,
which also it seems like everyone else has, because you can just do that. Uh,
but if I get your cards graded, you can get 35% off. Uh, I'll leave a link below,
not below, this isn't YouTube. I'll leave a link in the episode description, uh, for where to do
they get 35% off. I do get a commission from that because why else would I be promoting it?
And then, uh, let's see, I think that's pretty much it. Follow us on Instagram,
at Cryptic cocktail, Twitter, cryptic cocktail. And with that, thank you so much.