WEBVTT

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is burning down to my bones Welcome back, everyone,

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to the Bone Club. It's been quite a while since

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we last spoke. I think it's been, what, Stephanie,

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Thanksgiving? Something like that. Since we had

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all the craziness that is the holidays. I hope

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everyone had a wonderful holiday break, wonderful

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winter break. Today, we are very fortunate. We

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are joined with Dr. Sean Tallman, Associate Professor

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at... Boston University, one of my alma maters,

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which I really loved being there. How are you

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doing, sir? I'm doing well, thanks. Thank you

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for having me. It's nice to be here. How are

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you all? Can't complain, can't complain. Definitely

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trying to get back into the swing after the holiday

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season for sure. But I guess we can just kind

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of start out because maybe some of our audience

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doesn't really know who you are. Can you just

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give a little bit of background on maybe like

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why you chose anthropology, what type of research

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you enjoy doing, things like that? Sure. Yeah,

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so I, so as Ashley said, I'm an associate professor

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in. anatomy and neurobiology. So we have a masters

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of science in forensic anthropology program,

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which Ashley attended. And so I've been here,

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gosh, almost 10 years, which is crazy. Time goes

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by incredibly fast. um but um so i got into anthropology

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i mean kind of like probably a lot of us where

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in you know i didn't really know what it was

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fully uh though i grew up definitely with national

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geographics and being excited by the social and

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natural sciences um but i didn't fully know what

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it was until i took a class at community college

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in seattle where i grew up and took a cultural

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anthropology class and absolutely fell in love

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with it and then decided to take physical, then

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called physical anthropology class, and also

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fell in love with that. And then decided to take

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an archaeology class and fell in love with that.

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And then a linguistic anthropology class and

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really liked that. And then realized, okay, I

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think, you know, this might be something I want

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to pursue. But what does one do in with a bachelor's

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at that point, you know, in anthropology, but

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I ended up, you know, doing a field school, an

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archaeology field school in the American Southwest

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and fell in love with field work and travel.

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And that has been a huge part of my. my process

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in anthropology. And then I took a second field

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school to study the human skeleton and did it

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through Campsville and learned human osteology

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through Dr. Jane Bijkstra. So that was an amazing

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experience because I transferred to the University

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of Washington and we didn't have any sort of

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representation of human osteology, bioarchaeology,

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or forensic anthropology. So yeah, I... really

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got excited about the idea of studying skeletons

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from archaeological record. So the idea of bioarchaeology

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really excited me. And then when I graduated,

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I worked at Starbucks, like many of us do, work

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as a barista with an undergraduate degree in

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anthropology, until I got into a graduate program

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at SUNY Binghamton and moved across the country

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and started a master's there, working with Donnie

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Stedman. And then, yeah, I was really... going

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with the idea of bioarchaeology. And then kind

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of as I progressed in that, I grew more uncomfortable

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with the idea of working with indigenous remains

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without sort of more descending community involvement.

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And that was very early in the process. We're

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talking like early 2000s -ish. So it wasn't like

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it is now. And so I felt kind of, or very uncomfortable

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with that process. The NAGPRA process and the

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consultation process I love, but the, you know,

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studying remains that... the communities didn't

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know we had or something that kind of bothered

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me. And then I took a forensic anthropology class

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and got excited about that. And then. Ended up

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moving back to Seattle after my master's and

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worked in cultural resource management as an

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osteologist and archaeologist for a couple of

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years and worked or taught night classes at a

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community college and then did night inventories

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for museums who found human remains in closets.

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And then I grew antsy again being in Seattle

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and applied for jobs all over the place and got

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a job in Hawaii. at the Central Identification

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Laboratory. At that time, it was JPAC. Now it's

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obviously the DPAA. And then moved out to Hawaii

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and lived there for six years and worked as a

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forensic anthropologist. And then decided after

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about six years of that, that I was at the point

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of wanting to go back to do my PhD. So then I

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went to the University of... Tennessee in Knoxville,

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where Donnie had moved down from, from SUNY Binghamton.

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So I was able to rejoin that mentor -mentee relationship

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and had a wonderful time at the University of

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Tennessee. And then ended up getting a job here

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at Boston University when I finished up at Tennessee.

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Impressive resume. That's pretty awesome. I mean,

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I know. It's definitely always fun to hear who

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people worked under and who their mentors were

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and things like that. Because I know it's one

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of those things that who you worked under definitely

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shapes how you think and how you enjoy research

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and what you end up doing research on. Because

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I know for myself, going into grad school, I

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knew I wanted to do DPAA. I was like, this is

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the job. And really didn't have... I don't know.

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I guess I was a little naive at that point. So

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I didn't have really any idea of anything at

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20. And so working under my mentor, Alicia, I

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was just like, she really shaped how I thought

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about anthropology and what I thought about science

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and all of those types of things of like my,

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I very much, when I went into forensic science,

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I was coming into it because I had. thought I

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wanted to go to med school to be a pathologist

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and all that stuff. So I was like, science is

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a hard science and anthropology is a hard science.

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And then she was just like, hold up. Let's give

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some culture back to this. And that really shaped

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everything. So it's nice to see where you came

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from and all of that. Yeah. And there's so many,

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I mean, the field is so small, which is, I think,

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one of its strengths in that we can all kind

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of... you know do the red string tying people

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together on the wall and see where people come

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from and people's trajectories and sort of um

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yeah where they've been so i think that's really

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exciting and for me it's always it's been nice

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in that i i mean i I never really had a plan

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plan of what I wanted to do. I was open to many

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different things. So I said yes to a lot of things.

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But yeah, I never even really thought that I

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would be a university professor necessarily.

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I knew that a PhD could help in getting there

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if I wanted to do that. But even when I was getting

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a PhD, I didn't think I was going to be an academic.

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So I think just having people, you know, I, you

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know, some of the students I teach now, or just,

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you know, students now in general, seem to be

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very, very, very focused, which is great. It's

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cool when you figure it out right away. But,

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you know, for a lot of us, it's a very like,

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you know, meandering path as to what we do and

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that there isn't necessarily an end goal because

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the process is the important part. But that,

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you know, a lot of us, yeah, didn't, don't have

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specific five or 10 year plans. It's cool if

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you also do, because I know that there are exactly

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dingy in the ocean, but maybe dingy in a pond.

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Yes, exactly. I mean, for me, it was what I found

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interesting is my, the people I studied under

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with my master's degree, Dr. Prince Zinni, Dr.

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Pakenis, they had one school of thought. And

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then I go up to Toronto and I have Tracy Rogers,

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which is a vastly different school of thought.

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So now I come out as this weird. hybrid this

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werewolf werewolf of of you know philosophy is

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that a bad thing though yeah i think oh no i

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don't think it's a bad thing i think it's a perfect

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thing i encourage i when i mentor students and

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when i encourage students i tell them try not

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if you can to have to go to the same school for

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everything, to have the same advisor for everything.

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You need that variety. You need to see what those

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schools of thought and those philosophies look

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like in teaching and in real world. That straight

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path can be a problem. It's not necessarily bad,

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but it can be. Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely...

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I lucked out in mine because I was definitely

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the, I have my five -year plan. I have like just

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a very, this is what I'm going to do. And these

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are the steps to get there. And I didn't think

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I would stray from it at all, which is now looking

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back, I'm like, oh, that's so not how you do

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anthropology and also not how you should do life.

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And like, it's good to have a plan and like work

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towards goals and stuff. But I was like. Very

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naive at 18 when I was making decisions for the

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next 80 years of my life. Yeah, if you're 18

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years old, create a life plan and stick to it.

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Didn't work for me. There's so many different

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things you can do with an anthropology degree,

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right? And so, yeah, it's hard to... be on a

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very straight and narrow path with a specific

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goal because all these other interests and all

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these other really cool things might come up

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along the way to distract you in a good way.

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And having many different skills is good, obviously,

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for the job market too. Well, the reason why

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we asked you to come on with us today is there's

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a topic that has been floating around for a while.

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Diversity. equity, and inclusion. And I just

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want to talk to you about this because I know

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you've published on this in a variety of different

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ways. You and I have actually published a paper

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together on this, actually a paper and a popular

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press paper together on this topic and things.

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So just wanted to get your understanding on where

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things sit and how things go forward. And one

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of that is... We have this concept of DEI and

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what diversity is, what equity and inclusion

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is. And several years it was once very favorable.

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Now it's very much toxic for some reason. But

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how do you define these concepts and... operationalize

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them? Because they are rather nebulous terms.

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I mean, anything can be considered diversity

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almost. Yeah, great, great question that might

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not have a very succinct, straightforward answer.

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But I think, I mean, with, yeah, I mean, I feel

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that, you know, diversity, equity, inclusion

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initiatives obviously have been important in

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improved, well, in some ways they've been. important

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in improving the inclusion of multiple different

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mindsets and world experiences and worldviews

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and perspectives and lived experiences. You know,

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and, but I, you know, don't think it's beyond

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critique, right? I think that there's a lot of

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this. that early and quick adoption of DEI without

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actually doing it and having it much more as

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a performative thing versus a true fundamental

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part of an institution or one's behavior. So

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I think that, you know, I don't always think

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that it's, you know, 100 % always good and obviously

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not 100 % always bad. I think that For a field

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like anthropology, which has been founded or

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was founded on majority cisgender white males,

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and we are still struggling with the issues that

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were initiated during the formation of our field

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right we're still dealing with issues of race

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and racism um of inequity of structural violence

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and structural vulnerability of course issues

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with gender and sexuality i mean not not issues

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in that there are um uh different experiences

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with that but that there's critique of of those

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experiences so i think that we're still we're

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still dealing with that as a profession and and

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you know the field has been has been confronting

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that for a while. And I think that that's something

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that needs to happen. And so I think that, yeah,

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we are at an interesting time right now where

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we're being told sort of on a government basis

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and maybe institution basis, depending where

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we're at, that DEI is now out and we need to

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not focus on that. I still think that it has

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obviously, you know, I'm pro in most ways and

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that think that it has a lot of merit in that.

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I mean. There are studies to show that diverse

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lived experiences in working groups, whatever

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sort of field we're talking about, results in

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greater productivity and more interesting things

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and innovation and advances in that field or

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in that particular topic. Anthropology and biological

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and forensic anthropology is no different in

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that. So, yeah, I think it's an interesting time

00:15:24.980 --> 00:15:27.919
that there is this critique right now. At the

00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:30.000
same time, I think a lot of us are still doing

00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:33.399
what would be classified as DEI work, right?

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And even at our institutions, I know that not

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every institution right now is the same by any

00:15:39.500 --> 00:15:42.799
stretch. But, you know, they might be rebranding

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or renaming DEI offices, say, at some universities.

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largely that work is still continuing, even if

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they're avoiding sort of the quote unquote problematic

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words that are flagged by the administration.

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They're still doing that work to increase inclusion

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of students and of faculty. And, you know, in

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some respect, in my experience, I know that that's

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not true across every state and across every.

00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:13.639
university within those states. So I'm definitely

00:16:13.639 --> 00:16:18.240
coming at it being at a private institution in

00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:22.620
the Northeast. So in a very, you know, liberal

00:16:22.620 --> 00:16:25.480
part of the country, in a very liberal city,

00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:30.740
in a very liberal institution. So, you know,

00:16:30.740 --> 00:16:33.980
not that we haven't rebranded things at the university,

00:16:34.100 --> 00:16:36.539
but the work is still kind of, you know, still

00:16:36.539 --> 00:16:40.190
going on. um and and so and i think that work

00:16:40.190 --> 00:16:43.309
will continue kind of no matter what um sort

00:16:43.309 --> 00:16:47.250
of obstacles are thrown our way um whether it

00:16:47.250 --> 00:16:50.730
be from the administration or um from our own

00:16:50.730 --> 00:16:55.169
institutions or from our employment um because

00:16:55.169 --> 00:16:58.710
i think those of us who have been involved in

00:16:58.710 --> 00:17:03.409
this work and who have been interested in equity

00:17:03.409 --> 00:17:06.069
in our field and equality in our field have seen

00:17:06.069 --> 00:17:09.109
the benefits of efforts. They're not perfect.

00:17:09.210 --> 00:17:12.950
They can't solve every problem by any stretch,

00:17:13.089 --> 00:17:16.569
but the mindfulness that has come about in the

00:17:16.569 --> 00:17:18.829
self -reflection, both individually, but also

00:17:18.829 --> 00:17:21.509
collectively as a discipline, I think we see

00:17:21.509 --> 00:17:23.750
the benefits of that. Those of us who have been

00:17:23.750 --> 00:17:26.769
involved in this process in, I must say within

00:17:26.769 --> 00:17:30.430
the, I mean, recently within the last six years.

00:17:31.039 --> 00:17:33.920
five, six years, I mean, really since 2020 -ish

00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:41.119
or, you know, late 2000s. So I think, you know,

00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:43.839
it still has merit and it's still important.

00:17:44.059 --> 00:17:47.180
And that, yeah, there might not be an easy definition

00:17:47.180 --> 00:17:52.799
other than really trying to make space for people

00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:56.940
with diverse lived experiences and identities

00:17:56.940 --> 00:18:02.910
within the areas that we work. um and um and

00:18:02.910 --> 00:18:06.309
and trying to prioritize that in a way um because

00:18:06.309 --> 00:18:10.349
we know that that does result in a better field

00:18:10.349 --> 00:18:15.069
and in a stronger science um and and to me like

00:18:15.069 --> 00:18:18.069
i mean i'm still fascinated by skeletal biology

00:18:18.069 --> 00:18:20.869
by forensic anthropology methods and biological

00:18:20.869 --> 00:18:24.460
anthropology methods um but you know this sort

00:18:24.460 --> 00:18:26.839
of quote unquote again diversity equity and inclusion

00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:30.960
realm um really is also getting at human behavior

00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:34.960
and human you know biocultural realities in in

00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:37.640
a different way that is then just studying not

00:18:37.640 --> 00:18:39.720
i don't mean just but just studying a skeleton

00:18:39.720 --> 00:18:42.500
or looking at a skeleton or crunching statistics

00:18:42.500 --> 00:18:45.480
so i think that that is something that excites

00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:48.079
me because we can see that there is a benefit

00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:50.430
to this Yeah, no, I'm glad you said that. That

00:18:50.430 --> 00:18:52.309
was kind of something that I was thinking as

00:18:52.309 --> 00:18:55.990
you were talking was like, I guess this topic

00:18:55.990 --> 00:18:59.789
really is twofold in the sense that they interact

00:18:59.789 --> 00:19:03.470
with each other, though, is like, there's both

00:19:03.470 --> 00:19:07.170
diversity in our field, like, who are the practitioners?

00:19:07.250 --> 00:19:11.329
What types of experiences are going into the

00:19:11.329 --> 00:19:13.609
science? And how is that affecting the science

00:19:13.609 --> 00:19:16.170
that we're doing? But then also the diversity

00:19:16.170 --> 00:19:20.299
of the work that we're doing in the sense of

00:19:20.299 --> 00:19:23.819
like, who are the decedents? Who are we essentially

00:19:23.819 --> 00:19:27.400
studying? And, you know, more often than not,

00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:29.480
we're not necessarily, I mean, I guess outside

00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:32.180
of my job, but you're not necessarily getting

00:19:32.180 --> 00:19:36.339
just your like typical white guys, you know,

00:19:36.359 --> 00:19:39.819
you're getting a diverse population that you're

00:19:39.819 --> 00:19:43.019
trying to put a name to and trying to help ID

00:19:43.019 --> 00:19:44.859
and get those families some answers and those

00:19:44.859 --> 00:19:48.109
types of things. And so. You really have both

00:19:48.109 --> 00:19:53.089
diversity of practitioner and of specimens, not

00:19:53.089 --> 00:19:56.089
the right word, but, like, the... Decedents.

00:19:56.349 --> 00:19:58.269
Yeah, the decedents, like, who you're trying

00:19:58.269 --> 00:20:02.450
to help. So, definitely just, yeah, I'm glad

00:20:02.450 --> 00:20:06.930
you said that. I think a lot of times that can

00:20:06.930 --> 00:20:10.710
get lost, and, like, it's not just, oh, I want

00:20:10.710 --> 00:20:13.670
to, you know, I want more populations to, like,

00:20:13.769 --> 00:20:16.339
help my method, which is good. But it's also

00:20:16.339 --> 00:20:22.819
you and your mindset can help interact with what

00:20:22.819 --> 00:20:25.480
methods you use and how you define new methods

00:20:25.480 --> 00:20:29.640
and things like that. Yeah, I think excellent

00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:32.019
point, Stephanie. I think that, yeah, right.

00:20:32.119 --> 00:20:34.480
When we're talking about DEI, diversity, equity,

00:20:34.579 --> 00:20:36.700
inclusion sort of mentality, we can think about

00:20:36.700 --> 00:20:38.759
it, yeah, from a practitioner perspective and

00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:40.900
from training perspective, right, with our students.

00:20:41.710 --> 00:20:45.390
who we are as a makeup of a community of scholars.

00:20:45.930 --> 00:20:48.670
And yeah, and then what we can also say about

00:20:48.670 --> 00:20:52.089
the people that we study and the people that

00:20:52.089 --> 00:20:54.470
we work to try to identify or to say something

00:20:54.470 --> 00:20:58.230
meaningful about in a scientific way. So I think

00:20:58.230 --> 00:21:00.740
that. that it applies to yeah many different

00:21:00.740 --> 00:21:02.319
sort of levels and many different components

00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:06.099
of the field um and that all of them are important

00:21:06.099 --> 00:21:08.339
because without the diversity of practitioners

00:21:08.339 --> 00:21:11.079
say we wouldn't think to ask certain questions

00:21:11.079 --> 00:21:13.779
about who the people are that are dead and why

00:21:13.779 --> 00:21:16.740
they ended up dead and how we could say something

00:21:16.740 --> 00:21:19.660
meaningful about their potential self -identity

00:21:19.660 --> 00:21:21.960
or you know state -sanctioned sort of identity

00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:24.819
or what have you so i think that um i mean they're

00:21:24.819 --> 00:21:27.769
obviously all interrelated um and that we need

00:21:27.769 --> 00:21:29.849
to like think about them together and not just

00:21:29.849 --> 00:21:32.990
like um that that we're just thinking about student

00:21:32.990 --> 00:21:35.490
diversity or just thinking about uh practitioner

00:21:35.490 --> 00:21:39.750
diversity but the whole the whole sphere yeah

00:21:39.750 --> 00:21:43.670
it's definitely the you affect your science and

00:21:43.670 --> 00:21:47.069
your science affects you type of thing so exactly

00:21:47.069 --> 00:21:52.569
um when when looking at though the practitioner

00:21:52.569 --> 00:21:59.019
and student side of DEI, one of the common critiques

00:21:59.019 --> 00:22:03.460
that I always hear is that DEI dismantles meritocracy.

00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:10.900
And I have a hard time both debating the point,

00:22:10.980 --> 00:22:13.480
but also saying that, you know, arguing that

00:22:13.480 --> 00:22:22.680
DEI can enhance meritocracy by trying to eliminate

00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:27.880
and point out that, look at these people who

00:22:27.880 --> 00:22:32.240
have long been excluded and the merits they have

00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:39.579
achieved. I know I'm wording it sort of pretty

00:22:39.579 --> 00:22:44.799
strange, but does DEI eliminate meritocracy?

00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:51.549
And if not, how can we better argue? that this

00:22:51.549 --> 00:22:58.750
process enhances it, or at least is an equal

00:22:58.750 --> 00:23:02.750
part of? Yeah, that's a good question, actually.

00:23:02.849 --> 00:23:05.529
And yeah, I have heard that over the years many

00:23:05.529 --> 00:23:08.829
times before as well, both within our field and

00:23:08.829 --> 00:23:12.529
say within an institution or university setting.

00:23:13.369 --> 00:23:16.950
You know, I think that anybody who goes through,

00:23:17.009 --> 00:23:20.829
say, any sort of grad program, and even before

00:23:20.829 --> 00:23:23.210
grad school. But if we're thinking about people

00:23:23.210 --> 00:23:25.150
who are trying to professionalize in the field,

00:23:25.230 --> 00:23:28.069
you know, with forensic anthropology or anthropology,

00:23:28.329 --> 00:23:30.869
usually you need an advanced degree somewhat,

00:23:30.950 --> 00:23:32.490
not that you can't work with a bachelor's, but,

00:23:32.529 --> 00:23:35.069
you know, you usually need to go a little bit

00:23:35.069 --> 00:23:37.670
further. There's always going to be meritocratic

00:23:37.670 --> 00:23:41.250
principles baked in into grad programs, getting

00:23:41.250 --> 00:23:46.259
in. I mean, we may have like gotten rid of some

00:23:46.259 --> 00:23:49.299
of the standardized testing procedures, though

00:23:49.299 --> 00:23:51.539
I think universities are now bringing them back

00:23:51.539 --> 00:23:56.380
in in a lot of ways. You know, the the say the

00:23:56.380 --> 00:24:00.039
grade point average, you know, we still have

00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:02.319
to look we still have to look at these. these

00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:05.920
sort of bare minimums um for certain thresholds

00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:08.299
right and otherwise like the university would

00:24:08.299 --> 00:24:10.880
be upset if we just quote unquote took everybody

00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:13.579
right we we one we can't there's not enough space

00:24:13.579 --> 00:24:17.079
uh that's not like we can't take everybody um

00:24:17.079 --> 00:24:19.779
as much as we'd like to take more people uh at

00:24:19.779 --> 00:24:23.220
every level we you know we can't um based on

00:24:23.220 --> 00:24:27.039
resources and everything so There's always I

00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:29.539
think in academia There's always gonna be meritocracy

00:24:29.539 --> 00:24:31.700
that is always going to be in there like you

00:24:31.700 --> 00:24:34.619
can never get rid of it even if we wanted to

00:24:34.619 --> 00:24:37.650
and I don't even think that diversity equity

00:24:37.650 --> 00:24:40.710
inclusion initiatives are working opposite or

00:24:40.710 --> 00:24:43.309
working to dismantle all of meritocratic principles

00:24:43.309 --> 00:24:48.829
um but they're adding nuance to the um say any

00:24:48.829 --> 00:24:51.690
person's application um they're adding nuance

00:24:51.690 --> 00:24:55.490
to who that person is right so i think that um

00:24:56.619 --> 00:24:59.279
It doesn't inherently or doesn't need to inherently

00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:02.519
dismantle it completely, and I don't think it

00:25:02.519 --> 00:25:06.519
ever will or could. You know, I'm pro getting

00:25:06.519 --> 00:25:10.240
rid of standardized tests in many circumstances,

00:25:10.500 --> 00:25:14.359
you know, but we still have certain things to

00:25:14.359 --> 00:25:16.900
look at when we are, say, looking at grad student

00:25:16.900 --> 00:25:20.420
applications or undergrad applications. So, like,

00:25:20.460 --> 00:25:22.500
there's still going to be something there. that

00:25:22.500 --> 00:25:24.339
is going to be based on sort of your typical

00:25:24.339 --> 00:25:27.799
sort of progression and passing certain thresholds.

00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:32.460
I think that the, again, the diversity, equity,

00:25:32.539 --> 00:25:38.019
inclusion sort of perspectives on this can help

00:25:38.019 --> 00:25:42.579
to supply like information about a person that

00:25:42.579 --> 00:25:44.880
isn't just, okay, they're a straight A student.

00:25:44.980 --> 00:25:46.759
Like, I mean, right. And especially now, like

00:25:46.759 --> 00:25:48.700
so many people are straight A students, right?

00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:51.359
I mean, like we have like, I don't want to just

00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:53.019
say that it's just because of great inflation,

00:25:53.099 --> 00:25:55.680
but just that, you know, like, especially once

00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:58.200
you get higher in, say, grad school or in your

00:25:58.200 --> 00:26:00.299
training, everybody has great grades, right?

00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:03.720
It's like. You know, rarely do you encounter

00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:07.019
people that are like truly doing bad in classes

00:26:07.019 --> 00:26:09.319
because they want to be there. And that's, you

00:26:09.319 --> 00:26:10.900
know, they want to be there, not because classes

00:26:10.900 --> 00:26:15.599
are easy. But so I think that having those lived

00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:19.119
experiences to augment the already, OK, yeah,

00:26:19.220 --> 00:26:21.380
they can do the work. They know how to analyze

00:26:21.380 --> 00:26:24.099
a skeleton. They know how to do the basics. You

00:26:24.099 --> 00:26:26.460
know, they know basic forensic anthropology.

00:26:27.180 --> 00:26:30.579
But what else can they provide that is interesting,

00:26:30.680 --> 00:26:32.799
that is motivating? their potential research

00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:35.440
questions, that is motivating their perspectives

00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:37.519
on how they are going to interpret evidence,

00:26:37.880 --> 00:26:40.299
whether that be, you know, the skeleton itself

00:26:40.299 --> 00:26:44.539
or the skeleton plus, you know, cultural artifacts

00:26:44.539 --> 00:26:51.440
or objects. So I think that, yeah, I don't think

00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:55.619
that it is. like getting rid of meritocratic

00:26:55.619 --> 00:27:00.599
principles at all um but that is it's nuancing

00:27:00.599 --> 00:27:04.920
um the perspectives of the people um and and

00:27:04.920 --> 00:27:08.960
really helping to see who is has novel and interesting

00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:12.099
questions too about research and about what how

00:27:12.099 --> 00:27:16.319
they see the field um so I I still think that

00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:20.779
it has a place and that also I mean, again, this

00:27:20.779 --> 00:27:23.359
is my experience, but the people that are asking

00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:25.920
that question or challenging that question have

00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:29.460
been, in my perspective and in my experience,

00:27:29.700 --> 00:27:33.079
straight white men who have been like, it's been

00:27:33.079 --> 00:27:37.720
meritocracy is being gotten rid of because of

00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:40.640
DEI measures. And I came up through the meritocratic

00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:43.880
way. They might not say it in this way, but that

00:27:43.880 --> 00:27:45.700
they came up that way and they were successful

00:27:45.700 --> 00:27:47.680
in it and therefore other people should do the

00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:51.890
same. it's coming from you know a certain cohort

00:27:51.890 --> 00:27:55.109
of people within our field or with probably within

00:27:55.109 --> 00:28:00.150
any field um so it's it's not um uh yeah it's

00:28:00.150 --> 00:28:03.910
coming out uh from a very distinct group of people

00:28:03.910 --> 00:28:09.849
i guess does it um real quick one of the the

00:28:09.849 --> 00:28:12.170
things though that i think about is when you

00:28:12.170 --> 00:28:18.190
have that argument about the the uh sort of that

00:28:18.619 --> 00:28:24.839
death of meritocracy or the non -death of meritocracy

00:28:24.839 --> 00:28:28.579
when it comes to meritocracy and meritocratic

00:28:28.579 --> 00:28:33.759
principles and DEI is, well, you can evaluate

00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:40.059
things blind. For example, the recent Supreme

00:28:40.059 --> 00:28:48.529
Court ruling 2022 and 23, I think, on affirmative

00:28:48.529 --> 00:28:55.130
action and just review blind. Is it possible

00:28:55.130 --> 00:29:03.269
to review blind and still achieve the outcomes

00:29:03.269 --> 00:29:11.990
needed that DEI wants to profess or even that

00:29:11.990 --> 00:29:16.680
meritocracy proclaims to profess? that the meritocracy

00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:20.220
i was speaking of is what we normally hear from

00:29:20.220 --> 00:29:29.779
from a certain cohort yeah uh no i mean i i don't

00:29:29.779 --> 00:29:37.680
think so um yeah i don't i mean the the quote

00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:43.420
-unquote blind sort of um or kind of making everybody

00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:48.539
even or equal sort of like in any sort of assessment.

00:29:48.900 --> 00:29:52.619
I mean, we know that not everybody has access

00:29:52.619 --> 00:29:56.519
to the same resources to get to where they need

00:29:56.519 --> 00:29:59.779
to be or to get to where they are now. Everybody

00:29:59.779 --> 00:30:02.779
has taken diverse pathways to get to where they're

00:30:02.779 --> 00:30:04.920
going. People have had opportunities. Others

00:30:04.920 --> 00:30:09.200
have not had opportunities. And I think like

00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:13.349
if you're approaching any sort of decision making

00:30:13.349 --> 00:30:16.809
about who should get in or get a job or get into

00:30:16.809 --> 00:30:19.490
a program or what have you. I mean, ideally,

00:30:19.569 --> 00:30:22.269
I think that those should be considered to some

00:30:22.269 --> 00:30:24.990
extent. I think that knowing a person's background

00:30:24.990 --> 00:30:27.250
and where they come from and why they want to

00:30:27.250 --> 00:30:30.450
go into the field and what motivated them, sometimes

00:30:30.450 --> 00:30:32.869
that motivation might come from a lived experience

00:30:32.869 --> 00:30:39.809
that is, as somebody who's been not in the majority

00:30:39.809 --> 00:30:42.170
of thought in a lot of ways or or could have

00:30:42.170 --> 00:30:47.849
had um uh you know been um sort of ostracized

00:30:47.849 --> 00:30:50.190
in many ways other people could you know be a

00:30:50.190 --> 00:30:52.809
part of the majority but i think that just knowing

00:30:52.809 --> 00:30:55.990
those perspectives is interesting and and helpful

00:30:55.990 --> 00:30:59.809
and can only help um because i think i mean there's

00:30:59.809 --> 00:31:02.690
been studies i mean i don't think within anthropology

00:31:02.690 --> 00:31:05.869
specifically or i can't think of any necessarily

00:31:05.869 --> 00:31:08.710
specifically but that you know again, kind of

00:31:08.710 --> 00:31:12.009
all things considered or all things sort of equalized,

00:31:12.029 --> 00:31:15.450
that if we didn't have these sort of checks and

00:31:15.450 --> 00:31:18.049
balances with DEI, and I think that that's what

00:31:18.049 --> 00:31:22.049
DEI kind of offers is a potential for making

00:31:22.049 --> 00:31:23.990
sure that we aren't just accepting everybody

00:31:23.990 --> 00:31:27.329
from one single demographic. And, you know, I

00:31:27.329 --> 00:31:28.710
think there's been studies to show that, like,

00:31:28.730 --> 00:31:32.410
well, you know, if everything were equal, like,

00:31:32.490 --> 00:31:35.549
and if we just selected who we absolutely thought

00:31:35.549 --> 00:31:38.170
based solely on meritocratic principles it's

00:31:38.170 --> 00:31:41.529
it's going to be potentially majority white people

00:31:41.529 --> 00:31:43.950
right in in and that's not because they they

00:31:43.950 --> 00:31:47.089
are the best at getting these through these meritocratic

00:31:47.089 --> 00:31:50.829
principles right or wealthy yes exactly right

00:31:50.829 --> 00:31:55.130
right whole whole slew of reasons why right more

00:31:55.130 --> 00:31:57.589
resources more money more time more more what

00:31:57.589 --> 00:32:01.849
have you so i think that that The diversity,

00:32:01.930 --> 00:32:04.089
equity, inclusion initiatives can serve as sort

00:32:04.089 --> 00:32:06.490
of a checks and balances to the meritocratic

00:32:06.490 --> 00:32:08.470
principles. So I think the two can actually work

00:32:08.470 --> 00:32:11.809
together and that it's not necessarily like one

00:32:11.809 --> 00:32:15.950
or the other. And even now with if we're just,

00:32:15.990 --> 00:32:22.690
say, supposed to do meritocracy or based whatever

00:32:22.690 --> 00:32:26.430
we're deciding on meritocratic principles. it's

00:32:26.430 --> 00:32:28.750
still hard to, like, you can't tell somebody

00:32:28.750 --> 00:32:31.150
to not write about their lived experience in

00:32:31.150 --> 00:32:34.849
a job application, in a grad school application,

00:32:35.150 --> 00:32:38.390
in a personal statement, in a cover letter. Just

00:32:38.390 --> 00:32:41.230
looking at someone's CV, you know a lot, too,

00:32:41.309 --> 00:32:44.509
about what they have had opportunities for or,

00:32:44.609 --> 00:32:47.789
you know, like, you can see a lot already. And

00:32:47.789 --> 00:32:51.690
you can't turn a blind eye, I think, to knowing

00:32:51.690 --> 00:32:56.380
that stuff also. So I think that... even if it's

00:32:56.380 --> 00:33:02.180
not officially there, that those perspectives

00:33:02.180 --> 00:33:04.519
are still coming through and potentially informing

00:33:04.519 --> 00:33:06.960
the reviewers, right? They're still adding something

00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:10.980
or biasing, you know, in a good and or bad way.

00:33:11.059 --> 00:33:14.400
But I mean, biasing the people who are making

00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:16.839
the decisions about who should get. whatever

00:33:16.839 --> 00:33:19.559
is being applied for. So I think that those things

00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:22.259
are still like, you can't take, you can't take

00:33:22.259 --> 00:33:24.859
away people's lived experiences, especially like

00:33:24.859 --> 00:33:27.700
in academia, where so much of what we do is like

00:33:27.700 --> 00:33:30.299
motivated by, I don't, it could be where you

00:33:30.299 --> 00:33:32.960
grew up. It could be your challenges that you

00:33:32.960 --> 00:33:35.140
faced. It could be that you're just fascinated

00:33:35.140 --> 00:33:36.660
by something, you know, something that's very

00:33:36.660 --> 00:33:39.440
personal to a lot of people about why they want

00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:42.059
to study what they want to study. And in, in

00:33:42.059 --> 00:33:44.319
many fields that's embraced and that's great

00:33:44.319 --> 00:33:47.200
because it's a great motivator. And it's a very

00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:49.619
good way to get to productive, interesting research.

00:33:49.880 --> 00:33:53.559
So I think that it would be hard to ignore these

00:33:53.559 --> 00:33:56.440
things that make us unique and human and that

00:33:56.440 --> 00:34:00.000
show us our... our challenges that we've faced

00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:04.200
in our our applications to either grad school

00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:07.740
or to a job because you have to pour so much

00:34:07.740 --> 00:34:12.139
of your personal self into these things so you're

00:34:12.139 --> 00:34:14.860
not just giving like if if it were just meritocratic

00:34:14.860 --> 00:34:17.739
we would literally just submit you know our our

00:34:17.739 --> 00:34:21.980
transcripts and a standardized test right and

00:34:21.980 --> 00:34:26.239
then nothing else and then i mean even then the

00:34:26.239 --> 00:34:30.320
like thinking about like what classes I took

00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:33.320
even in undergrad like all my electives tell

00:34:33.320 --> 00:34:35.960
you about me and so like even if I just submitted

00:34:35.960 --> 00:34:38.599
my transcript you're still learning okay well

00:34:38.599 --> 00:34:40.820
what did she take electives in what did she find

00:34:40.820 --> 00:34:45.199
interesting or you know having kind of like how

00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:47.699
you're saying earlier that like once you get

00:34:47.699 --> 00:34:49.579
to a certain point most people have good grade

00:34:49.579 --> 00:34:50.880
point averages because they're interested in

00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:53.280
what they're doing so then like even seeing my

00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:57.739
transcript if I have you know high A's and all

00:34:57.739 --> 00:35:00.320
of these classes, but a C in this class, it might

00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:02.260
not be because I was bad at that class. It might've

00:35:02.260 --> 00:35:04.619
just been, I didn't care about the class. And

00:35:04.619 --> 00:35:08.139
so it's like, even I think, I don't know, for

00:35:08.139 --> 00:35:11.099
me, the people that like try to tout that merit,

00:35:11.119 --> 00:35:14.960
like merit is the only way to like get an answer

00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:18.960
are also the same people that believe that people

00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:21.239
in themselves can be objective to begin with.

00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:23.980
And it's like, you can't because we're people.

00:35:24.340 --> 00:35:29.190
And so like, even having, like numbers don't

00:35:29.190 --> 00:35:32.349
mean anything without context behind them and

00:35:32.349 --> 00:35:37.269
so trying to pretend that you know you checked

00:35:37.269 --> 00:35:41.369
these boxes means something the meaning you place

00:35:41.369 --> 00:35:43.730
on that is based on your own lived experiences

00:35:43.730 --> 00:35:49.289
and so but yeah i think that's a good point that

00:35:49.289 --> 00:35:52.909
the people that um yeah i agree with you stephanie

00:35:52.909 --> 00:35:56.070
that the people that um proclaim that say meritocracy

00:35:56.070 --> 00:35:59.550
is is being confronted or dismantled because

00:35:59.550 --> 00:36:03.570
of dei um are are similar are in that same group

00:36:03.570 --> 00:36:05.469
of people who think that you know we're completely

00:36:05.469 --> 00:36:07.909
and can be completely objective when we need

00:36:07.909 --> 00:36:10.530
to be or you know all the time when we analyze

00:36:10.530 --> 00:36:13.949
a skeleton or do whatever we do um and that you

00:36:13.949 --> 00:36:18.039
know obviously there's been a lot of um um discussion

00:36:18.039 --> 00:36:21.199
about that over the the years so yeah i think

00:36:21.199 --> 00:36:25.039
it's all related i think for sure i say for i

00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:29.940
guess the from your own perspective when maybe

00:36:29.940 --> 00:36:36.820
not being able to call a dei or whatever i guess

00:36:36.820 --> 00:36:40.280
how do you go about implementing those same principles

00:36:40.280 --> 00:36:45.300
without it being clear stated i guess in today's

00:36:45.300 --> 00:36:50.639
world Community Connections Committee. Right.

00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:52.820
Yeah, there's been obviously a lot of renaming

00:36:52.820 --> 00:36:56.860
of committees and of offices in universities.

00:36:57.039 --> 00:36:59.780
I must say, again, I'm at Boston University.

00:37:00.119 --> 00:37:03.039
It's a private institution. So it's under sort

00:37:03.039 --> 00:37:06.739
of, I think, different sort of, you know, sort

00:37:06.739 --> 00:37:09.940
of mandates than a public institution, though

00:37:09.940 --> 00:37:13.840
not without critique or not without people critiquing

00:37:13.840 --> 00:37:17.889
the university. Thankfully, my institution has

00:37:17.889 --> 00:37:21.389
not gotten rid of diversity. People still hold

00:37:21.389 --> 00:37:24.670
that title in, say, their actual job title, like

00:37:24.670 --> 00:37:27.650
an associate dean or a dean of whatever diversity.

00:37:28.510 --> 00:37:32.010
They've changed some of the terminology, but,

00:37:32.150 --> 00:37:35.670
you know, none of the actual aims have changed.

00:37:36.300 --> 00:37:38.860
They've done a little bit of reorganization with

00:37:38.860 --> 00:37:41.559
offices. But again, nothing has been completely

00:37:41.559 --> 00:37:44.900
dismantled, thankfully, at our institution. I

00:37:44.900 --> 00:37:47.159
know that that's not true across institutions

00:37:47.159 --> 00:37:50.500
at all. So I'm not saying that that's something

00:37:50.500 --> 00:37:53.320
that everybody is experiencing. But what I am

00:37:53.320 --> 00:37:56.579
seeing is that, okay, so maybe there's been a

00:37:56.579 --> 00:38:00.840
slight change of name in something. We are still

00:38:00.840 --> 00:38:04.340
doing the same thing. basically, at least as

00:38:04.340 --> 00:38:06.699
an institution in the way that we're thinking

00:38:06.699 --> 00:38:08.599
about things. That's not, you know, obviously,

00:38:08.659 --> 00:38:12.300
like if we apply to, say, a federal grant, if

00:38:12.300 --> 00:38:14.900
you are doing stuff where there's sort of like

00:38:14.900 --> 00:38:18.420
trigger words that the administration is looking

00:38:18.420 --> 00:38:22.280
for, then, yes, you have to sort of bend to those

00:38:22.280 --> 00:38:25.780
or in your application. And I mean, another thing

00:38:25.780 --> 00:38:28.059
is that what I've been hearing people say, this

00:38:28.059 --> 00:38:30.440
is not I have not done this. I've not applied

00:38:30.440 --> 00:38:33.719
for a federal grant. um like this um but that

00:38:33.719 --> 00:38:37.639
that um yeah you don't put the sort of dei language

00:38:37.639 --> 00:38:42.719
in your um grant application but you do you do

00:38:42.719 --> 00:38:46.659
the work once you get the money um who's gonna

00:38:46.659 --> 00:38:50.050
know uh i mean yeah you have to report uh but

00:38:50.050 --> 00:38:51.929
you could also be very selective in the way that

00:38:51.929 --> 00:38:53.989
you use language to report what you're doing

00:38:53.989 --> 00:38:56.750
so it doesn't mean that that is inherently gone

00:38:56.750 --> 00:38:58.829
i mean it could i mean it's obviously having

00:38:58.829 --> 00:39:01.429
a negative effect on what is getting funded and

00:39:01.429 --> 00:39:04.460
what sort of questions and projects and communities

00:39:04.460 --> 00:39:07.340
are being offered resources. So, I mean, not,

00:39:07.420 --> 00:39:10.179
not to say that, that you can just sort of brush

00:39:10.179 --> 00:39:12.679
it off by any stretch, but I think that, that

00:39:12.679 --> 00:39:15.539
people are so impassioned by this because the

00:39:15.539 --> 00:39:17.840
work needs to still happen, that they're finding

00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:21.159
ways to do it. And so for me in particular, I

00:39:21.159 --> 00:39:23.659
mean, like, again, I've had very little, I mean,

00:39:23.679 --> 00:39:26.539
I've been on a lot of DEI related committees

00:39:26.539 --> 00:39:31.289
at the university level. And but like there's

00:39:31.289 --> 00:39:34.010
been nothing inherently told to me that I can't

00:39:34.010 --> 00:39:36.750
do a certain thing. So my own sort of private

00:39:36.750 --> 00:39:39.369
or not private, but my own website about the

00:39:39.369 --> 00:39:41.949
forensic and bioanthropology laboratory group

00:39:41.949 --> 00:39:45.190
within our department, I have not changed at

00:39:45.190 --> 00:39:47.190
all. And diversity, equity, inclusion have been

00:39:47.190 --> 00:39:49.150
featured on there for years. I didn't change

00:39:49.150 --> 00:39:52.670
any of that language. You know, I identify on

00:39:52.670 --> 00:39:55.789
that website as, you know, a gay male and that

00:39:55.789 --> 00:39:58.710
that's been an important part. And that has motivated

00:39:58.710 --> 00:40:01.400
me. in sort of the way I'm thinking about the

00:40:01.400 --> 00:40:08.699
field in some ways. And I think it's hugely important

00:40:08.699 --> 00:40:11.940
to my students. I mean, we get applicants and

00:40:11.940 --> 00:40:14.440
people that come to the program because I think

00:40:14.440 --> 00:40:18.539
of this diversity, equity, inclusion work. So

00:40:18.539 --> 00:40:21.679
because people, students often want professors

00:40:21.679 --> 00:40:25.659
and universities that are dedicated to this.

00:40:26.340 --> 00:40:30.800
And so... for myself it hasn't dramatically changed

00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:33.260
much and in fact you know again i i have the

00:40:33.260 --> 00:40:36.820
luxury again i i don't think that everybody has

00:40:36.820 --> 00:40:42.739
this luxury but i'm like i can sort of double

00:40:42.739 --> 00:40:47.019
down in doing my dei work i can publish a lot

00:40:47.019 --> 00:40:49.920
on this stuff and i'm still continuing to i could

00:40:49.920 --> 00:40:53.239
do a podcast like this and not thankfully, knock

00:40:53.239 --> 00:40:56.579
on wood, not worry about it jeopardizing my career.

00:40:57.320 --> 00:41:00.400
And so, again, I think that not everybody can.

00:41:00.539 --> 00:41:03.019
So I don't expect everybody to be able to do

00:41:03.019 --> 00:41:07.079
that. But that it hasn't. for me changed much

00:41:07.079 --> 00:41:09.940
other than motivating me to continue doing the

00:41:09.940 --> 00:41:12.079
work and to make it visible that i'm doing the

00:41:12.079 --> 00:41:16.780
work um and to to being um up front with that

00:41:16.780 --> 00:41:19.380
um and again i think this this is it reminds

00:41:19.380 --> 00:41:22.019
me of a similar though different but a similar

00:41:22.019 --> 00:41:24.599
time where you know we were starting the the

00:41:24.599 --> 00:41:29.050
diversity the Diversity and Inclusion Committee

00:41:29.050 --> 00:41:31.110
through the American Academy of Forensic Sciences

00:41:31.110 --> 00:41:36.030
Anthropology Section in 2017, 2018. And there

00:41:36.030 --> 00:41:39.650
was initial pushback about starting a diversity

00:41:39.650 --> 00:41:42.269
committee within the American Academy of Forensic

00:41:42.269 --> 00:41:46.969
Sciences. There was verbal pushback. And we were,

00:41:47.010 --> 00:41:48.849
you know, a lot of us were sort of shocked to

00:41:48.849 --> 00:41:51.510
hear that people had a problem with that. But

00:41:51.510 --> 00:41:55.250
that also motivated us. That absolutely was like

00:41:55.250 --> 00:41:57.449
kind of a nice, I mean, not nice, but it was

00:41:57.449 --> 00:42:01.110
a good impetus for us to like define what we

00:42:01.110 --> 00:42:04.090
want to do. Realize that, no, this is important

00:42:04.090 --> 00:42:07.750
for a community of forensic anthropologists.

00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:11.119
um that we want to do this work and this is what

00:42:11.119 --> 00:42:13.539
we need to do and so i think it like knowing

00:42:13.539 --> 00:42:17.099
that there were sort of detractors actually helped

00:42:17.099 --> 00:42:21.989
fuel sort of our motivation and our fire to do

00:42:21.989 --> 00:42:25.050
the work where if like everything is fine all

00:42:25.050 --> 00:42:28.309
the time you might not be challenged to take

00:42:28.309 --> 00:42:31.250
sort of that next step to say double down on

00:42:31.250 --> 00:42:33.130
something or to be like no no this is actually

00:42:33.130 --> 00:42:36.710
important and i'm i have to verbally or in writing

00:42:36.710 --> 00:42:40.550
defend this in some way or argue for it um because

00:42:40.550 --> 00:42:42.530
if everything is you know sort of hunky -dory

00:42:42.530 --> 00:42:44.949
the whole time that you know we could stagnate

00:42:44.949 --> 00:42:50.039
so As much as I am very bothered by what's happening

00:42:50.039 --> 00:42:52.940
politically and with the administration and particularly

00:42:52.940 --> 00:42:55.639
with science and the effects of science and healthcare

00:42:55.639 --> 00:42:58.880
and the universities and marginalized communities

00:42:58.880 --> 00:43:03.480
in general, but I still think that people are

00:43:03.480 --> 00:43:05.940
rising to the challenge. And it might be taking

00:43:05.940 --> 00:43:08.079
us a little bit to figure out how to do that

00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:11.599
and how to operate that way, but that we're still

00:43:11.599 --> 00:43:15.449
doing that work. So, and that's important. With

00:43:15.449 --> 00:43:19.889
that, though, you know, as we've noted, for a

00:43:19.889 --> 00:43:23.909
while, DEI seemed to have some favor within academia.

00:43:23.969 --> 00:43:26.730
There was pushback, but there was some favor.

00:43:26.849 --> 00:43:29.449
And in the last few years, particularly this

00:43:29.449 --> 00:43:33.050
last year with the administration, there has

00:43:33.050 --> 00:43:37.630
been considerable pushback, relentless assault

00:43:37.630 --> 00:43:41.050
on anything even remotely diversity, considered

00:43:41.050 --> 00:43:46.179
diversity. Where did things go so wrong in your

00:43:46.179 --> 00:43:50.539
view? And how can we bring this into balance?

00:43:51.440 --> 00:43:56.360
This seems to be a societal question. DEI is

00:43:56.360 --> 00:44:03.039
either the devil or it's good. And I figured

00:44:03.039 --> 00:44:06.739
there has to be a balance somewhere. I'd say,

00:44:06.860 --> 00:44:08.840
I don't want, I mean, I'm going to let you answer

00:44:08.840 --> 00:44:12.460
too, Sean, but I think for myself that, that.

00:44:13.969 --> 00:44:17.190
difference is mostly just a lack of understanding

00:44:17.190 --> 00:44:21.130
of what it even is because I think a lot of times

00:44:21.130 --> 00:44:25.989
people who I mean like my own father like who

00:44:25.989 --> 00:44:29.150
really thinks that this is like this horrible

00:44:29.150 --> 00:44:32.750
thing and I'm like I don't think you like I try

00:44:32.750 --> 00:44:35.869
to spend a lot of time being like I don't know

00:44:35.869 --> 00:44:37.849
if you know what you're talking about actually

00:44:37.849 --> 00:44:40.550
like what you're saying and what I'm saying or

00:44:41.079 --> 00:44:43.280
going across from each other and not meeting

00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:45.380
anywhere in the middle because we're talking

00:44:45.380 --> 00:44:48.920
about very different things. And so I think for

00:44:48.920 --> 00:44:54.539
me, when I come across people that, like, you

00:44:54.539 --> 00:44:56.559
know, do think DEI is the devil or whatever,

00:44:56.880 --> 00:45:01.139
it's asking a lot of questions to them of, like,

00:45:01.199 --> 00:45:04.179
well, what do you see as bad? Like, what is,

00:45:04.260 --> 00:45:06.239
why are you thinking the way you're thinking?

00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:10.159
Because sometimes the thought process helps explain.

00:45:10.750 --> 00:45:13.210
oh, maybe what they're saying isn't what they're

00:45:13.210 --> 00:45:16.090
actually thinking. And there is actually some

00:45:16.090 --> 00:45:20.550
crossover that we can come together on some beliefs

00:45:20.550 --> 00:45:24.789
while, you know, you just hear the sound bites.

00:45:24.869 --> 00:45:26.710
You might think, oh, we have nothing in common

00:45:26.710 --> 00:45:30.510
and we can't ever come to an agreement of any

00:45:30.510 --> 00:45:34.130
kind. I don't know. That's just what I tend to

00:45:34.130 --> 00:45:39.230
do. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, I think a

00:45:39.230 --> 00:45:42.969
great question. And again, not an easy, straightforward

00:45:42.969 --> 00:45:44.809
answer. But I think that like, I mean, right.

00:45:44.929 --> 00:45:48.469
So if people are arguing DEI is either the best

00:45:48.469 --> 00:45:52.130
thing ever or the worst thing ever. I mean, rarely

00:45:52.130 --> 00:45:55.269
is anything, any one initiative or any sort of

00:45:55.269 --> 00:45:59.389
group thought 100 % good or 100 % bad, right?

00:45:59.449 --> 00:46:02.269
Like meritocracy isn't necessarily 100 % bad.

00:46:02.309 --> 00:46:05.630
It's not 100 % good, right? So I mean, there's...

00:46:05.960 --> 00:46:08.820
all this it's all sort of gray area right as

00:46:08.820 --> 00:46:11.699
with most things and depending on context too

00:46:11.699 --> 00:46:14.260
it's gonna it's gonna matter so it's not it's

00:46:14.260 --> 00:46:16.840
never it should never be black or white right

00:46:16.840 --> 00:46:19.820
that that that dei is always going to be 100

00:46:19.820 --> 00:46:23.179
good i think that within like the academic sphere

00:46:23.179 --> 00:46:24.860
and the university sphere i think that there

00:46:24.860 --> 00:46:27.980
was a lot i mean if we're thinking you know this

00:46:27.980 --> 00:46:30.539
if this got really up and running in the 2020

00:46:30.539 --> 00:46:34.920
in 2020 really in post 2020 but you know with

00:46:35.449 --> 00:46:37.550
uh the murder of George Floyd and and racial

00:46:37.550 --> 00:46:40.210
reckonings and COVID and I mean all the things

00:46:40.210 --> 00:46:43.710
that drove us into sort of self -reflection um

00:46:43.710 --> 00:46:48.050
you know both self for the discipline and for

00:46:48.050 --> 00:46:52.469
our own sort of work um that that there was obviously

00:46:52.469 --> 00:46:56.949
a lot of um sort of posturing, right? Or a lot

00:46:56.949 --> 00:46:58.809
of like jumping on the bandwagon of DEI right

00:46:58.809 --> 00:47:01.889
away, right? Like universities did it. There

00:47:01.889 --> 00:47:04.329
were diversity statements everywhere. There was

00:47:04.329 --> 00:47:06.610
like, you know, these things that were just like,

00:47:06.710 --> 00:47:09.489
okay, this is what we need to do now. So it was

00:47:09.489 --> 00:47:11.769
sort of obviously a reaction to what was going

00:47:11.769 --> 00:47:16.409
on sociopolitically. Almost a more formative

00:47:16.409 --> 00:47:19.840
reaction. At a lot of places. Right. Yeah. And

00:47:19.840 --> 00:47:22.460
I don't think that that was inherently bad either,

00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:25.659
but that also there wasn't a ton of follow through

00:47:25.659 --> 00:47:28.179
with a lot of these. So like they would do one

00:47:28.179 --> 00:47:30.320
diversity statement and be like, okay, we did

00:47:30.320 --> 00:47:33.320
our work. Now we have it up on the department

00:47:33.320 --> 00:47:36.679
or on whatever website that people can see that

00:47:36.679 --> 00:47:40.630
we did the work and we're done. And so there

00:47:40.630 --> 00:47:43.889
was a lot of this posturing with DEI, a lot of

00:47:43.889 --> 00:47:47.949
performative DEI work, or just really not anything

00:47:47.949 --> 00:47:51.349
really happening after they sort of initially

00:47:51.349 --> 00:47:54.929
got groups together, you know, communities together

00:47:54.929 --> 00:47:57.769
to talk about this stuff. So I think that there,

00:47:57.849 --> 00:48:00.340
I mean. there's rightfully a critique of that

00:48:00.340 --> 00:48:02.619
right that that you need to follow through with

00:48:02.619 --> 00:48:04.760
whatever initiative that you're sort of taking

00:48:04.760 --> 00:48:07.920
on or whatever um you know torch you're gonna

00:48:07.920 --> 00:48:10.920
you're gonna sort of bear and and run with that

00:48:10.920 --> 00:48:14.500
so i think a lot of institutions i mean you know

00:48:14.500 --> 00:48:17.480
not just colleges or universities but like i

00:48:17.480 --> 00:48:19.719
mean many different places did this right where

00:48:19.719 --> 00:48:22.039
they did some of the work in the beginning and

00:48:22.039 --> 00:48:26.079
didn't do anything you know later on so i think

00:48:26.079 --> 00:48:29.340
that there's a big critique there. And I understand

00:48:29.340 --> 00:48:34.320
that critique and that wasn't a good thing. So,

00:48:34.380 --> 00:48:37.960
you know, I think that that's one place where

00:48:37.960 --> 00:48:40.480
it was starting, you know, to be questioned.

00:48:40.599 --> 00:48:45.159
I think also not defining whether it be an institution

00:48:45.159 --> 00:48:49.090
or... what have you, like not defining what they

00:48:49.090 --> 00:48:51.090
mean by diversity, equity, inclusion, or whatever

00:48:51.090 --> 00:48:53.309
terms that they're using. Right. And not just

00:48:53.309 --> 00:48:56.369
saying DEI, like, I mean, obviously like it makes

00:48:56.369 --> 00:49:00.309
sense to say DEI, you know, in certain contexts

00:49:00.309 --> 00:49:02.190
versus saying the whole thing out all the time.

00:49:02.269 --> 00:49:04.769
But I do think that like actually saying diversity,

00:49:04.929 --> 00:49:09.190
equity, and inclusion, saying that out in conversation

00:49:09.190 --> 00:49:13.030
with people is more helpful than just DEI, even

00:49:13.030 --> 00:49:15.289
though everyone knows what DEI stands for. But

00:49:15.289 --> 00:49:19.260
like, how can people be actually against inclusion,

00:49:19.599 --> 00:49:22.260
right? Like, so like when you kind of list it

00:49:22.260 --> 00:49:24.960
out, it's like diversity, equity, and inclusion

00:49:24.960 --> 00:49:27.940
in and of themselves on their own, even if we

00:49:27.940 --> 00:49:30.719
just take the Merriam -Webster definition, you

00:49:30.719 --> 00:49:33.900
know, like they're not bad words, right? But

00:49:33.900 --> 00:49:37.699
like together, DEI is bad. So I think that like

00:49:37.699 --> 00:49:42.199
even just spelling that out and saying what you

00:49:42.199 --> 00:49:44.159
mean, particularly as an organization that has

00:49:44.159 --> 00:49:48.519
power, right? that has some sort of sway in either

00:49:48.519 --> 00:49:50.739
getting students or getting people employed or,

00:49:50.739 --> 00:49:53.300
or what have you, um, I think is really important

00:49:53.300 --> 00:49:56.320
too. And not just being like DEI, um, even though

00:49:56.320 --> 00:49:58.519
I understand like in, in conversation, we do

00:49:58.519 --> 00:50:01.599
that. So, um, yeah, I think defining what you

00:50:01.599 --> 00:50:03.739
mean. Um, and again, I don't think organizations

00:50:03.739 --> 00:50:07.079
and people have been good with that, um, defining

00:50:07.079 --> 00:50:08.739
what they mean or saying what they mean other

00:50:08.739 --> 00:50:15.170
than DEI. Um, and, um, And doing the just performative

00:50:15.170 --> 00:50:18.449
stuff without any sort of real follow through.

00:50:19.210 --> 00:50:22.070
And then, of course, with, you know, since January

00:50:22.070 --> 00:50:25.650
or since the last election, I mean, that, you

00:50:25.650 --> 00:50:28.829
know, that that was just another huge blow, right,

00:50:28.949 --> 00:50:32.190
to any sort of diversity or seemingly a huge

00:50:32.190 --> 00:50:34.329
blow to diversity, equity, inclusion initiatives.

00:50:35.070 --> 00:50:37.610
Though, again, I mean, we're seeing that, like,

00:50:37.610 --> 00:50:42.889
say. The court proceedings and the legal ramifications,

00:50:43.070 --> 00:50:46.269
like the administration isn't necessarily winning

00:50:46.269 --> 00:50:49.010
in these things that they're trying to stop.

00:50:49.110 --> 00:50:51.570
Like they may have paused things for a while

00:50:51.570 --> 00:50:53.869
and that people might have preemptively stopped

00:50:53.869 --> 00:50:59.489
doing DEI work. But when it is coming into the

00:50:59.489 --> 00:51:02.429
courtroom and sort of the decisions, a lot of

00:51:02.429 --> 00:51:04.730
those are being lost, right? And that they're

00:51:04.730 --> 00:51:07.769
kind of in our... quote unquote, or whoever the

00:51:07.769 --> 00:51:12.210
group is that is sort of pro -inclusion and pro

00:51:12.210 --> 00:51:14.929
-science and pro -that. So a lot of it is sort

00:51:14.929 --> 00:51:19.510
of ruling in sort of our favor. It's just taking

00:51:19.510 --> 00:51:26.030
time to get there, right? So I think that, yeah,

00:51:26.150 --> 00:51:29.690
I mean, obviously this year has been an immense

00:51:29.690 --> 00:51:32.550
challenge, especially with like the premature

00:51:32.550 --> 00:51:36.159
acceptance of whatever these... these rulings

00:51:36.159 --> 00:51:40.179
are right like if they like just okay capitulation

00:51:40.179 --> 00:51:43.579
yeah right yeah just like saying yes right without

00:51:43.579 --> 00:51:46.360
being like wait do we have to and and why are

00:51:46.360 --> 00:51:48.840
we doing this now is there any legal recourse

00:51:48.840 --> 00:51:51.659
to doing this or not doing this right now um

00:51:51.659 --> 00:51:55.539
so you know i think that that has has um obviously

00:51:55.539 --> 00:51:58.539
uh been a challenge but but again i think that

00:51:58.539 --> 00:52:03.230
that that legally um Things haven't panned out

00:52:03.230 --> 00:52:05.210
for the administration in a lot of ways, even

00:52:05.210 --> 00:52:08.170
though it's it's not been an easy battle and

00:52:08.170 --> 00:52:11.690
that is paused and stopped. I mean, to some extent,

00:52:11.829 --> 00:52:15.449
but some of the work that's happening, but that

00:52:15.449 --> 00:52:18.150
that people are still finding ways to do that

00:52:18.150 --> 00:52:23.110
work, which which I find exciting. I think hopefully,

00:52:23.210 --> 00:52:26.570
I mean, we'll only get better over these next

00:52:26.570 --> 00:52:29.510
few years, too, even if it will get not better

00:52:29.510 --> 00:52:34.570
politically. But knowing that we do have three

00:52:34.570 --> 00:52:42.789
more years of whatever this is, do you see any

00:52:42.789 --> 00:52:48.449
short -term and long -term ramifications related

00:52:48.449 --> 00:52:55.650
to this dismantling? Particularly, not just in

00:52:55.650 --> 00:52:58.630
academia, but I think particularly within the...

00:52:59.610 --> 00:53:02.730
A lot of forensic anthropology is in government.

00:53:03.449 --> 00:53:07.949
It's not just in academia. Do we have that ramification?

00:53:09.469 --> 00:53:12.030
Yeah, well, I would be interested to hear what

00:53:12.030 --> 00:53:16.210
Stephanie thinks about this. Yeah, I'm sure.

00:53:16.369 --> 00:53:21.230
I mean, yes, there is going to be that. I mean,

00:53:21.250 --> 00:53:23.469
I think, you know, funding, I mean, getting grant

00:53:23.469 --> 00:53:26.909
federal grants is going to be a challenge for

00:53:26.909 --> 00:53:30.070
just just inherent topics. that we want to study

00:53:30.070 --> 00:53:32.889
right i mean studying women was problematic right

00:53:32.889 --> 00:53:35.369
deemed problematic like uh like studying trans

00:53:35.369 --> 00:53:37.309
people is doing probably like so just even just

00:53:37.309 --> 00:53:39.769
the topic of the whatever group right or the

00:53:39.769 --> 00:53:42.389
name of the group um not not to mention that

00:53:42.389 --> 00:53:46.210
they're not to mention the d dei component but

00:53:46.210 --> 00:53:50.030
just like who who is being studied or what resources

00:53:50.030 --> 00:53:54.559
are being provided so i think um So, yes, that's

00:53:54.559 --> 00:53:56.300
going to, I think, remain a challenge, though,

00:53:56.340 --> 00:53:58.400
hopefully getting a little bit better, especially

00:53:58.400 --> 00:54:00.139
with some of these rulings that are coming out

00:54:00.139 --> 00:54:04.059
that the money that was not given to people is

00:54:04.059 --> 00:54:07.960
now are given to institutions and things are

00:54:07.960 --> 00:54:10.579
being sort of given back, even though there's

00:54:10.579 --> 00:54:13.760
been damage, of course, done. And just kind of

00:54:13.760 --> 00:54:16.400
hope it doesn't get to the Supreme Court. Yeah,

00:54:16.400 --> 00:54:21.699
yeah, yeah. So I think, yeah, I don't know. I

00:54:21.699 --> 00:54:24.059
will be. it will be interesting to see i think

00:54:24.059 --> 00:54:27.219
i mean six months ago uh and earlier i would

00:54:27.219 --> 00:54:29.739
have been like oh my gosh it's we're like this

00:54:29.739 --> 00:54:32.079
is the worst right i mean it is it's pretty bad

00:54:32.079 --> 00:54:34.840
but i mean like there is no coming back from

00:54:34.840 --> 00:54:37.119
this now i'm seeing like because we've gotten

00:54:37.119 --> 00:54:40.119
used to some things a little bit um and that

00:54:40.119 --> 00:54:43.179
things are still sometimes operating again depending

00:54:43.179 --> 00:54:47.420
on the context and where we're at um that I have

00:54:47.420 --> 00:54:50.360
a little bit more hope now than I did, say, six

00:54:50.360 --> 00:54:53.500
months ago or last January or something. So I

00:54:53.500 --> 00:55:00.840
think that, yeah, I don't think it'll be completely

00:55:00.840 --> 00:55:06.000
dismantled in my perspective. But again, I'm

00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:09.179
operating from a private institution in a very

00:55:09.179 --> 00:55:14.199
bubble space of Boston, surrounded by other...

00:55:15.159 --> 00:55:17.800
you know somewhat like -minded institutions and

00:55:17.800 --> 00:55:20.039
people to some extent not that there's not um

00:55:20.039 --> 00:55:23.599
a diversity of thought here but um yeah so but

00:55:23.599 --> 00:55:25.420
from a government perspective stephanie i'm curious

00:55:25.420 --> 00:55:30.920
you know what you yeah it's it's different um

00:55:30.920 --> 00:55:35.219
i guess the best way to put it is kind of how

00:55:35.219 --> 00:55:38.119
you were saying earlier that like the names have

00:55:38.119 --> 00:55:40.860
changed but the work still kind of being done

00:55:40.860 --> 00:55:44.610
in the sense that like Like we were mandated

00:55:44.610 --> 00:55:48.389
to take off like pronouns at the end of our signatures

00:55:48.389 --> 00:55:52.630
and things like that. But it's definitely like

00:55:52.630 --> 00:55:56.650
the conversations are still being had, just not

00:55:56.650 --> 00:55:59.590
written or not, you know, like those types of

00:55:59.590 --> 00:56:03.929
things. I feel like I've, I've had a lot more

00:56:03.929 --> 00:56:08.489
like, I don't know, scuttlebutt, like water fountain

00:56:08.489 --> 00:56:11.909
conversations that. honestly are better than

00:56:11.909 --> 00:56:14.969
any written conversation that I've ever had because

00:56:14.969 --> 00:56:18.949
people are like truly coming together to be like

00:56:18.949 --> 00:56:22.409
what what do we do how do we you know like how

00:56:22.409 --> 00:56:27.010
do we work within the system but also not be

00:56:27.010 --> 00:56:28.809
okay with this that like the things that we're

00:56:28.809 --> 00:56:32.949
not okay with um I definitely like I know when

00:56:32.949 --> 00:56:34.849
we got told to like take our pronouns out of

00:56:34.849 --> 00:56:38.650
our email um like signature for all government

00:56:38.650 --> 00:56:42.269
work stuff I are like because I'm a contractor

00:56:42.269 --> 00:56:44.570
our SNA contractor said we could keep it in our

00:56:44.570 --> 00:56:48.630
SNA emails but we just couldn't do it if we're

00:56:48.630 --> 00:56:52.789
emailing via like our government email and I

00:56:52.789 --> 00:56:56.949
like went I literally had a meeting with my like

00:56:56.949 --> 00:57:01.949
managers and I was just like so the actual text

00:57:01.949 --> 00:57:04.889
of the like guidance that was given to us it

00:57:04.889 --> 00:57:06.409
was that we had to take it out of our digital

00:57:06.409 --> 00:57:09.889
signature if I just hand wrote it into every

00:57:09.889 --> 00:57:12.730
email would I get in trouble and they were like

00:57:12.730 --> 00:57:15.690
I mean doesn't that kind of go against the spirit

00:57:15.690 --> 00:57:18.829
and intent and I was like yes but that's I want

00:57:18.829 --> 00:57:20.889
to go against the spirit and intent actually

00:57:20.889 --> 00:57:27.730
and so like there's definitely some like I don't

00:57:27.730 --> 00:57:32.010
know weird circular cap fighting back against

00:57:32.010 --> 00:57:35.769
some things that like maybe you can't explicitly

00:57:35.769 --> 00:57:38.250
go against because then you'll get fired or whatever

00:57:38.250 --> 00:57:43.889
i say have you but there's definitely more conversations

00:57:43.889 --> 00:57:47.570
that are being had than probably ever before

00:57:47.570 --> 00:57:51.969
which well i wish it didn't have to come from

00:57:51.969 --> 00:57:54.730
something bad happening to make these conversations

00:57:54.730 --> 00:57:59.389
happen it's nice that they are happening um we're

00:57:59.389 --> 00:58:03.750
like i know We've definitely had lots of conversations

00:58:03.750 --> 00:58:05.989
within the last couple of years at work of like,

00:58:06.030 --> 00:58:08.849
I mean, this is more method based than necessarily

00:58:08.849 --> 00:58:13.670
like employment based, but like, what are we

00:58:13.670 --> 00:58:16.510
like, what are we doing for ancestry? What, what

00:58:16.510 --> 00:58:21.050
does this mean? How do we go about like the,

00:58:21.210 --> 00:58:24.230
yes, most of the population that we're working

00:58:24.230 --> 00:58:27.369
with are white men in their twenties, but it's

00:58:27.369 --> 00:58:30.610
not everyone like. The Korean War and Vietnam

00:58:30.610 --> 00:58:33.010
War definitely had more diverse populations than

00:58:33.010 --> 00:58:35.969
that. And how do we go about writing that? How

00:58:35.969 --> 00:58:40.190
can we do what the field is pushing for and what

00:58:40.190 --> 00:58:43.769
we ethically believe is correct to do for our

00:58:43.769 --> 00:58:48.829
science while not writing something that's going

00:58:48.829 --> 00:58:53.869
to get flagged somewhere down the line? And so

00:58:53.869 --> 00:58:55.989
it's definitely been interesting to see. hear

00:58:55.989 --> 00:59:00.989
those conversations being had um even if kind

00:59:00.989 --> 00:59:05.969
of behind closed doors so so hopefully not dismantled

00:59:05.969 --> 00:59:09.590
i guess is the answer but yeah it just looks

00:59:09.590 --> 00:59:13.449
different i wonder thinking about it not just

00:59:13.449 --> 00:59:15.750
for for government workers but for academic workers

00:59:15.750 --> 00:59:18.809
for anybody within forensic anthropology and

00:59:18.809 --> 00:59:21.969
anthropology in general what we're not stupid

00:59:21.969 --> 00:59:26.320
people most of us follow politics to some extent.

00:59:26.639 --> 00:59:34.599
But I think going forward, looking at how funding

00:59:34.599 --> 00:59:37.659
has been weaponized, particularly against anything

00:59:37.659 --> 00:59:45.079
that looks like DEI, part of our unofficial job

00:59:45.079 --> 00:59:50.280
description is studying and understanding politics

00:59:50.280 --> 00:59:55.260
in the now and in the future. Because this is

00:59:55.260 --> 00:59:59.739
going to change. In three years, there's going

00:59:59.739 --> 01:00:01.920
to be a new administration. There's going to

01:00:01.920 --> 01:00:05.960
be new policies. But the radical shift that has

01:00:05.960 --> 01:00:08.139
taken place and the norm -breaking that has taken

01:00:08.139 --> 01:00:14.960
place this term has sort of opened the door for

01:00:14.960 --> 01:00:19.039
the future. And now, as anthropologists, I think

01:00:19.039 --> 01:00:25.480
we have to... observe study and almost predict

01:00:25.480 --> 01:00:31.039
what's going to happen to make sure that we can

01:00:31.039 --> 01:00:34.719
adjust going forward before the adjustments even

01:00:34.719 --> 01:00:38.719
really needed i don't know if we can necessarily

01:00:38.719 --> 01:00:42.159
predict i mean we can have some best guesses

01:00:42.159 --> 01:00:47.719
i guess but i think if we're trying to predict

01:00:47.719 --> 01:00:52.170
human behavior then we're almost doing what they're

01:00:52.170 --> 01:00:55.690
doing, but on the opposite end. And so I think,

01:00:55.750 --> 01:00:58.670
well, it's good to be preemptive and like, you

01:00:58.670 --> 01:01:00.809
know, work towards... Well, preemptive is, I

01:01:00.809 --> 01:01:04.050
think, is a better word than predict. What I

01:01:04.050 --> 01:01:09.849
mean is, I think for us, when it comes to what

01:01:09.849 --> 01:01:14.090
has taken place, it took academics, researchers,

01:01:14.469 --> 01:01:17.030
anthropologists, for us specifically as anthropologists,

01:01:17.210 --> 01:01:22.900
almost six months. It took us half a year to

01:01:22.900 --> 01:01:28.699
realize how to work with and within this administration.

01:01:30.340 --> 01:01:36.340
In future, we can't take six months. We're going

01:01:36.340 --> 01:01:38.579
to have to look at before that. We're going to

01:01:38.579 --> 01:01:43.280
have to say, all right, this is coming in. How

01:01:43.280 --> 01:01:47.119
do we address it? And that requires us sort of

01:01:47.119 --> 01:01:51.059
knowing. that political structure and knowing

01:01:51.059 --> 01:01:56.679
that political mindset that we haven't really

01:01:56.679 --> 01:01:59.659
had to do before. We've been in our scientific

01:01:59.659 --> 01:02:04.119
bubble of, okay, I can write my grant, send it

01:02:04.119 --> 01:02:07.559
in, it'll get approved or rejected based on the

01:02:07.559 --> 01:02:10.500
merits and come back. Now we have to sort of

01:02:10.500 --> 01:02:13.760
look at it like, well, what's going to be politically

01:02:13.760 --> 01:02:18.329
favorable? and this administration or in the

01:02:18.329 --> 01:02:21.469
if we're talking about a year out the incoming

01:02:21.469 --> 01:02:24.309
administration if they're whichever one gets

01:02:24.309 --> 01:02:29.789
elected rather than you know all right i can

01:02:29.789 --> 01:02:33.389
just write whatever i need to i think to a certain

01:02:33.389 --> 01:02:35.929
extent though that we always kind of had to do

01:02:35.929 --> 01:02:39.269
that i mean now it's definitely the administration

01:02:39.269 --> 01:02:42.250
has been a bit more explicit and like you can't

01:02:42.250 --> 01:02:45.510
say these words like if I had tried to get grant

01:02:45.510 --> 01:02:48.809
funding for my thesis, it would have been like

01:02:48.809 --> 01:02:52.969
said no, because I have the word bias in there.

01:02:53.070 --> 01:02:57.369
And arguably almost my research was to try to

01:02:57.369 --> 01:02:59.929
make people more objective. And so like what

01:02:59.929 --> 01:03:02.530
they kind of would have wanted, it still would

01:03:02.530 --> 01:03:04.769
have been said no because of bias. And so like,

01:03:04.829 --> 01:03:09.429
I think it always was kind of there of like trying

01:03:09.429 --> 01:03:13.099
to. I mean, think about like when you write resumes

01:03:13.099 --> 01:03:15.960
and do any cover letters, like you tailor it

01:03:15.960 --> 01:03:17.980
to who you're talking to, to a certain extent.

01:03:18.980 --> 01:03:22.559
And so I think that's always been true. It's

01:03:22.559 --> 01:03:29.139
just definitely, I think with what's going on

01:03:29.139 --> 01:03:34.300
now, the like research that the field has been

01:03:34.300 --> 01:03:37.039
getting into seems to be more in opposition of

01:03:37.039 --> 01:03:38.820
what the administration wants. And so I think

01:03:38.820 --> 01:03:42.750
that's why it feels so like. So drastically,

01:03:42.750 --> 01:03:46.789
like we can't do anything anymore. But yeah,

01:03:47.150 --> 01:03:50.309
I don't know. There was a little bit of a difference

01:03:50.309 --> 01:03:58.170
before this term. The NIH, the NSF, the NIJ,

01:03:58.190 --> 01:04:00.789
well, the NIJ is still kind of giving us grants,

01:04:00.909 --> 01:04:05.409
which is great. But these were almost semi -autonomous

01:04:05.409 --> 01:04:10.320
independent agencies. That no longer exists.

01:04:10.460 --> 01:04:13.900
They're no longer independent agencies. And admittedly

01:04:13.900 --> 01:04:20.199
no longer independent agencies. So we have to

01:04:20.199 --> 01:04:22.199
follow what the administration is doing. There

01:04:22.199 --> 01:04:27.639
is no more even slither of daylight between the

01:04:27.639 --> 01:04:31.679
two. But I do think that that's always been the

01:04:31.679 --> 01:04:34.059
case, right? I mean, like the NSF is appointed

01:04:34.059 --> 01:04:39.699
by the president. Higher ups of the NSF, right,

01:04:39.760 --> 01:04:43.460
are like appointed by any president. So I think

01:04:43.460 --> 01:04:46.119
we've had to navigate this stuff before. Right.

01:04:46.179 --> 01:04:49.639
I mean, Trump's first term. And then prior to

01:04:49.639 --> 01:04:51.460
that, there were other things that we had to

01:04:51.460 --> 01:04:54.539
navigate. So, like, I think that we always have

01:04:54.539 --> 01:04:56.739
to, like, be cognizant of the sociopolitical

01:04:56.739 --> 01:04:59.059
landscape that we're working in and that any

01:04:59.059 --> 01:05:02.119
grant you have to sort of be aware of that. And

01:05:02.119 --> 01:05:04.960
so I don't think that I mean, yeah, like it seems

01:05:04.960 --> 01:05:07.019
more extreme right now because there's so many.

01:05:07.519 --> 01:05:10.619
words and groups targeted groups that you know

01:05:10.619 --> 01:05:15.980
we can't um focus on in our our uh studies supposedly

01:05:15.980 --> 01:05:20.139
but that um i think we always have to do that

01:05:20.139 --> 01:05:25.000
um but i also think that like i mean again well

01:05:25.000 --> 01:05:27.360
i think that in certain ways like the cat is

01:05:27.360 --> 01:05:29.500
already out of the bag or the toothpaste is already

01:05:29.500 --> 01:05:31.179
out of the tube or whatever like you can't put

01:05:31.179 --> 01:05:36.269
it back in in that like again a lot of us and

01:05:36.269 --> 01:05:40.650
again, I'm sort of collective us, have seen the

01:05:40.650 --> 01:05:44.070
benefits of what these diversity, equity, and

01:05:44.070 --> 01:05:46.409
inclusion initiatives can do and perspectives,

01:05:46.789 --> 01:05:49.469
whether it be write a paper, whether it be get

01:05:49.469 --> 01:05:50.769
a group of people together to write a paper,

01:05:50.809 --> 01:05:52.969
whether it be to do a poster or a presentation

01:05:52.969 --> 01:05:55.690
at a conference, whether it be a website, whether

01:05:55.690 --> 01:05:57.489
it be to do a committee or be on a committee.

01:05:58.159 --> 01:06:02.119
um we see the benefits of these um and and it's

01:06:02.119 --> 01:06:03.760
not just because we drank the kool -aid right

01:06:03.760 --> 01:06:07.219
i mean we we see that it is beneficial and that

01:06:07.219 --> 01:06:10.320
it is helping people um and and strengthening

01:06:10.320 --> 01:06:13.599
the field too um and then i mean i look at my

01:06:13.599 --> 01:06:16.179
students and i mean they there's no question

01:06:16.179 --> 01:06:19.719
that they are way more interested in i mean just

01:06:19.719 --> 01:06:21.639
even like 10 years ago when i started teaching

01:06:21.639 --> 01:06:25.219
versus now i mean students have changed so much.

01:06:25.539 --> 01:06:29.000
And it's so exciting to see that students have

01:06:29.000 --> 01:06:32.260
no issues with, I mean, you know, like whatever,

01:06:32.519 --> 01:06:35.460
you know, gender and sex terms and whatever,

01:06:35.500 --> 01:06:37.659
like all this stuff is so exciting. Like they

01:06:37.659 --> 01:06:40.340
are like so comfortable and so interested in

01:06:40.340 --> 01:06:44.860
like challenging the, like the bad system or

01:06:44.860 --> 01:06:48.280
the oppressive system. And so like, I get motivated

01:06:48.280 --> 01:06:51.619
from them also because of like, well, they're

01:06:51.619 --> 01:06:54.179
going to be the future workers and leaders and

01:06:54.179 --> 01:06:57.179
whatever of our field, right? So they seem pretty

01:06:57.179 --> 01:07:00.440
cool with things. And I mean, yeah, they are

01:07:00.440 --> 01:07:04.360
worried and frustrated and scared of what's going

01:07:04.360 --> 01:07:09.840
on for sure. But that, I mean, the papers that

01:07:09.840 --> 01:07:11.679
they choose to write on, the people that they

01:07:11.679 --> 01:07:13.440
choose to write on, the topics that they're doing

01:07:13.440 --> 01:07:16.880
for their theses, I mean, are reflective of like...

01:07:17.159 --> 01:07:20.940
what could sometimes be dei labeled right but

01:07:20.940 --> 01:07:24.579
that but like we can thankfully still do that

01:07:24.579 --> 01:07:27.980
um and it's so it's it's motivating to see that

01:07:27.980 --> 01:07:32.260
right that that um there's i think enough momentum

01:07:32.260 --> 01:07:36.500
um in our field right now i know that we might

01:07:36.500 --> 01:07:39.650
be stifled by uh the context in which we work

01:07:39.650 --> 01:07:41.710
like the intersection with government and law

01:07:41.710 --> 01:07:44.670
enforcement um but also this kind of is another

01:07:44.670 --> 01:07:46.889
time that allows us the self -reflection to be

01:07:46.889 --> 01:07:50.090
like how does our field intersect with what's

01:07:50.090 --> 01:07:52.369
going on sociopolitically like like what like

01:07:52.369 --> 01:07:57.909
does do our terms support what the administration

01:07:57.909 --> 01:08:02.309
is saying you know if we use say biological sex

01:08:02.309 --> 01:08:04.750
or biological male or biological female in our

01:08:04.750 --> 01:08:09.360
reports Does that in some way support what the

01:08:09.360 --> 01:08:11.280
administration is saying, that there are only

01:08:11.280 --> 01:08:13.639
two, and they use biological sex all the time

01:08:13.639 --> 01:08:17.000
in their definition of what they mean as binary

01:08:17.000 --> 01:08:20.500
male and female. So like, if we're using that,

01:08:20.500 --> 01:08:23.279
I mean, that's just a small example, and I'm

01:08:23.279 --> 01:08:25.500
not saying don't use it. I just, but like, you

01:08:25.500 --> 01:08:27.199
know, even the terminology, is it supporting

01:08:27.199 --> 01:08:29.159
what the administration is saying, even though

01:08:29.159 --> 01:08:32.859
we know? that that is not true biology and true

01:08:32.859 --> 01:08:36.560
biocultural reality, right? So I think that it's

01:08:36.560 --> 01:08:39.939
allowing us now also to, again, self -assess

01:08:39.939 --> 01:08:42.899
about how our field intersects and that, yes,

01:08:42.939 --> 01:08:45.979
we were like, our field was in many ways legitimated

01:08:45.979 --> 01:08:48.420
because of its alliances with law enforcement,

01:08:48.659 --> 01:08:52.340
right? Particularly early on. And that has, it's

01:08:52.340 --> 01:08:54.600
like sort of tendrils affecting our field now,

01:08:54.800 --> 01:08:56.819
right? Like where we're still operating on that

01:08:56.819 --> 01:09:00.420
five. race, ancestry, whatever your population

01:09:00.420 --> 01:09:02.359
affinity, whatever you want to call it, it's

01:09:02.359 --> 01:09:05.079
still race, right? It's still going back to the

01:09:05.079 --> 01:09:07.899
old school race categories. So we're still operating

01:09:07.899 --> 01:09:09.899
under that. We're still operating under the same

01:09:09.899 --> 01:09:12.420
sex and gender categories that were found, you

01:09:12.420 --> 01:09:14.260
know, founded in what like law enforcement uses,

01:09:14.340 --> 01:09:16.380
even if we're trying to sort of diversify the

01:09:16.380 --> 01:09:18.380
language or to like make the language more inclusive.

01:09:18.579 --> 01:09:21.720
So like we've been legitimated by law enforcement

01:09:21.720 --> 01:09:24.420
and by the government or the state sort of early

01:09:24.420 --> 01:09:28.829
on. And that has sort of trickled down obviously

01:09:28.829 --> 01:09:32.569
like history does um to today and so i think

01:09:32.569 --> 01:09:36.109
that and and like do we want to be legitimating

01:09:36.109 --> 01:09:38.770
what the state is doing right now i mean obviously

01:09:38.770 --> 01:09:41.350
like jobs are important like like i'm not saying

01:09:41.350 --> 01:09:43.670
don't work for the government uh but just like

01:09:43.670 --> 01:09:46.470
you know we need we should be cognizant of the

01:09:46.470 --> 01:09:49.029
work that we're doing and whether like we're

01:09:49.029 --> 01:09:53.710
supporting these totally wrongful claims that

01:09:54.159 --> 01:09:56.500
what they're saying about human biological variation.

01:09:56.760 --> 01:10:01.020
So I think that there's a potential opportunity

01:10:01.020 --> 01:10:04.399
now to sort of engage with that too, to be like,

01:10:04.500 --> 01:10:08.979
what are we doing? And how is our history being

01:10:08.979 --> 01:10:14.380
influenced by the sociopolitical landscape? Well,

01:10:14.460 --> 01:10:18.119
and I know a paper that you and I and several

01:10:18.119 --> 01:10:21.359
others put out talked about this almost to an

01:10:21.359 --> 01:10:27.510
extent. on advocacy and now the coined term is

01:10:27.510 --> 01:10:32.869
necropolisy and necroadvocacy and this concept

01:10:32.869 --> 01:10:38.470
of we've worked so hard within our bubble, now

01:10:38.470 --> 01:10:42.510
we have to work outside. We have to engage with

01:10:42.510 --> 01:10:47.170
the outside spheres, the outside world to try

01:10:47.170 --> 01:10:53.600
to not just explain, but engage with what our

01:10:53.600 --> 01:10:57.000
research is, what it can do, what it can't do,

01:10:57.140 --> 01:11:02.279
what we mean, because we do see a lot of our

01:11:02.279 --> 01:11:10.119
research being malappropriated, misappropriated.

01:11:10.579 --> 01:11:13.560
And to an extent, we have an obligation to say,

01:11:13.760 --> 01:11:16.479
hey, wait a second, that's not what we mean.

01:11:18.000 --> 01:11:20.159
And I think that all goes back to just like,

01:11:20.279 --> 01:11:24.800
how, how good are we at explaining what we mean?

01:11:25.060 --> 01:11:27.439
Because like language is hard, especially when

01:11:27.439 --> 01:11:29.859
you're trying to explain something as complex

01:11:29.859 --> 01:11:34.979
as people. And so really, which I guess kind

01:11:34.979 --> 01:11:36.380
of goes back to what I was saying before is like

01:11:36.380 --> 01:11:39.619
really having those conversations with people

01:11:39.619 --> 01:11:42.420
who think exactly the opposite of you, quote

01:11:42.420 --> 01:11:45.500
unquote, and trying to say like, okay, what did

01:11:45.500 --> 01:11:49.100
you hear from what I said? And how can we go

01:11:49.100 --> 01:11:52.939
about coming together to where you get a better

01:11:52.939 --> 01:11:54.560
understanding of what I'm actually trying to

01:11:54.560 --> 01:11:58.279
say instead of just what you heard me say? And

01:11:58.279 --> 01:12:01.779
that's really hard because then you have to truly

01:12:01.779 --> 01:12:03.720
understand what you're talking about, which is

01:12:03.720 --> 01:12:07.960
hard. And then being able to explain it in a

01:12:07.960 --> 01:12:10.140
way that other people who don't know what you're

01:12:10.140 --> 01:12:13.100
talking about can understand and like trying

01:12:13.100 --> 01:12:17.250
to find that happy balance of also. listening

01:12:17.250 --> 01:12:19.329
where like i know that's one thing that like

01:12:19.329 --> 01:12:21.869
i struggled with for so long of like just sitting

01:12:21.869 --> 01:12:23.729
down and listening to someone who i completely

01:12:23.729 --> 01:12:27.729
disagree with and just being like okay so i said

01:12:27.729 --> 01:12:33.250
you know xyz about morphological sex but all

01:12:33.250 --> 01:12:36.430
you got was they're a man and it's like okay

01:12:36.430 --> 01:12:39.590
that's not what i said but why did you get what

01:12:39.590 --> 01:12:42.069
why did you get what you got out of what i said

01:12:42.069 --> 01:12:46.479
and how can we bridge that gap and i think a

01:12:46.479 --> 01:12:49.560
lot of and maybe i'm overstating this but like

01:12:49.560 --> 01:12:54.619
i feel like a lot of our field are pretty they're

01:12:54.619 --> 01:12:56.520
not necessarily outgoing people in the way that

01:12:56.520 --> 01:12:58.800
they want to just like have those conversations

01:12:58.800 --> 01:13:02.359
where like you know a lot of us got into the

01:13:02.359 --> 01:13:04.819
field because we like the science and we like

01:13:04.819 --> 01:13:07.439
to be like inward a little bit and think about

01:13:07.439 --> 01:13:11.899
the complexities of the human body but like that

01:13:11.899 --> 01:13:15.039
also requires us we love studying people we hate

01:13:15.039 --> 01:13:18.220
people yeah yeah but like it requires you to

01:13:18.220 --> 01:13:20.699
be a people person like if you're going at least

01:13:20.699 --> 01:13:22.899
in my own opinion like if you're going to be

01:13:22.899 --> 01:13:25.159
a good scientist you have to be a people person

01:13:25.159 --> 01:13:29.000
you have to be able to speak to the people you're

01:13:29.000 --> 01:13:31.420
giving your science to in a way that they understand

01:13:32.560 --> 01:13:35.600
And that's hard. I mean, because everyone's coming

01:13:35.600 --> 01:13:37.920
with different experiences. So then you might

01:13:37.920 --> 01:13:39.840
explain it one way to one person and they get

01:13:39.840 --> 01:13:41.640
it immediately. And then you explain it exactly

01:13:41.640 --> 01:13:43.600
the same way to someone else and they get something

01:13:43.600 --> 01:13:46.939
completely opposite. And so it's just having

01:13:46.939 --> 01:13:51.140
the patience to listen to a certain extent and

01:13:51.140 --> 01:13:55.159
not just explain is what I've at least been trying

01:13:55.159 --> 01:13:58.680
to do. For sure. Yeah, I think that's an excellent

01:13:58.680 --> 01:14:00.619
point. I think that our field has not done a

01:14:00.619 --> 01:14:03.659
great job with science communication. This could

01:14:03.659 --> 01:14:05.539
be said also broadly for biological anthropology,

01:14:05.840 --> 01:14:07.880
but I think specifically for forensic anthropology,

01:14:08.060 --> 01:14:10.119
we haven't really done a great job at communicating

01:14:10.119 --> 01:14:13.600
what our science can and cannot do. I think both

01:14:13.600 --> 01:14:18.739
with the public, but then also the... people

01:14:18.739 --> 01:14:21.500
in the organizations that we work with, with

01:14:21.500 --> 01:14:25.159
law enforcement. So if our reports say are incredibly

01:14:25.159 --> 01:14:28.140
short and we're just saying, you know, mail and

01:14:28.140 --> 01:14:30.560
not giving any justification or explanation of

01:14:30.560 --> 01:14:32.960
what we mean by that, like, yes, we're, we're

01:14:32.960 --> 01:14:36.159
like reducing a very complex thing to like just

01:14:36.159 --> 01:14:38.859
this, this one label. Right. And, and that we're

01:14:38.859 --> 01:14:41.579
not say at, you know, adding a probability or

01:14:41.579 --> 01:14:44.260
whatever, we're not sort of justifying why we

01:14:44.260 --> 01:14:46.579
said it. We just say it to fit the needs of what

01:14:46.579 --> 01:14:49.470
that. organization or what that law enforcement

01:14:49.470 --> 01:14:54.029
organization wants then we're not doing the field

01:14:54.029 --> 01:14:57.670
a good you know a service because we are not

01:14:57.670 --> 01:15:00.310
explaining what we actually mean by that and

01:15:00.310 --> 01:15:02.850
that that there's a lot of complexity even in

01:15:02.850 --> 01:15:06.029
say sex estimation so like we're not doing a

01:15:06.029 --> 01:15:07.989
good job with what we mean and i think about

01:15:07.989 --> 01:15:11.149
this all the time when i see and do myself but

01:15:11.149 --> 01:15:15.819
like uh like um presentations or lectures or

01:15:15.819 --> 01:15:18.060
whatever on sex estimation and there's always

01:15:18.060 --> 01:15:22.359
the female pelvis next to the male pelvis the

01:15:22.359 --> 01:15:25.800
female skull next to the male skull and there's

01:15:25.800 --> 01:15:28.619
like the obvious differences because they're

01:15:28.619 --> 01:15:31.000
focused on the obvious differences so there's

01:15:31.000 --> 01:15:33.300
only two forms right even if we're explaining

01:15:33.300 --> 01:15:35.439
that yes there's gradients and there's scales

01:15:35.439 --> 01:15:37.520
and there's measures and it's not just one or

01:15:37.520 --> 01:15:39.829
the other and it's not black and white Like those

01:15:39.829 --> 01:15:43.090
images are incredibly powerful. And so all science

01:15:43.090 --> 01:15:46.770
communication like about this shows, I mean,

01:15:46.770 --> 01:15:49.390
most of us will just put up, you know, a male

01:15:49.390 --> 01:15:52.489
and female example, right? And that just like

01:15:52.489 --> 01:15:55.739
not necessarily a gradient. And so we do this

01:15:55.739 --> 01:15:57.579
when we teach undergrad classes, we do this sometimes

01:15:57.579 --> 01:16:00.359
when we teach grad classes, we do this in science

01:16:00.359 --> 01:16:02.560
communication stuff. And so I think that that

01:16:02.560 --> 01:16:04.800
in and of itself is problematic, right? We're

01:16:04.800 --> 01:16:08.279
like reducing this complex process of sex estimation

01:16:08.279 --> 01:16:11.260
and what makes a person, whatever we're calling

01:16:11.260 --> 01:16:14.260
that person, the biological processes behind

01:16:14.260 --> 01:16:16.979
that we've like dramatically reduced down to

01:16:16.979 --> 01:16:20.189
like these, you know, a binary, right? I think,

01:16:20.189 --> 01:16:23.729
and then similar could be said about race, ancestry,

01:16:23.850 --> 01:16:25.770
and population affinity that we've sort of, you

01:16:25.770 --> 01:16:28.970
know, that we've reduced it down so much to make

01:16:28.970 --> 01:16:32.689
it sort of palatable for the organizations that

01:16:32.689 --> 01:16:35.550
employ us or that work with us that we have,

01:16:35.649 --> 01:16:40.609
like, we just have reduced the science down so

01:16:40.609 --> 01:16:44.689
much. And so I think that the field could greatly

01:16:44.689 --> 01:16:47.590
benefit from better science communication, like

01:16:47.590 --> 01:16:52.420
podcasts, like, Things that people who aren't

01:16:52.420 --> 01:16:58.399
getting their PhD in the field, that have access

01:16:58.399 --> 01:17:02.460
to this stuff. So I think... You know, YouTube

01:17:02.460 --> 01:17:05.619
videos and Instagram and all the things have

01:17:05.619 --> 01:17:09.039
roles in explaining what we do and don't do.

01:17:09.100 --> 01:17:11.680
It just it obviously takes people that are interested

01:17:11.680 --> 01:17:14.920
in it. Not all of us are capable or have an interest

01:17:14.920 --> 01:17:17.640
or know what we're doing in that regard. So,

01:17:17.640 --> 01:17:20.560
you know, it takes the right people to do that.

01:17:20.779 --> 01:17:23.670
But that's why I think that we can also. benefit

01:17:23.670 --> 01:17:26.010
from training in how to do science communication,

01:17:26.390 --> 01:17:28.630
right? It's never taught how to do this stuff,

01:17:28.729 --> 01:17:32.970
how to do a podcast, how to do, you know, a public

01:17:32.970 --> 01:17:36.869
talk that like makes it, you know, sound understandable

01:17:36.869 --> 01:17:40.010
for people. So I think that like we could benefit

01:17:40.010 --> 01:17:46.050
from that training in whatever way to, yeah,

01:17:46.130 --> 01:17:48.310
to better explain what our field can and cannot

01:17:48.310 --> 01:17:56.439
do. So, wrapping up here, because we've gone

01:17:56.439 --> 01:17:59.600
on for a while, there's one last thing I wanted

01:17:59.600 --> 01:18:03.140
to bring up with you. And I don't want to go

01:18:03.140 --> 01:18:05.939
into the backstory because it's a pretty complicated

01:18:05.939 --> 01:18:09.579
case, but for those that are interested, I highly

01:18:09.579 --> 01:18:13.079
recommend looking up some of the stories and

01:18:13.079 --> 01:18:17.979
information regarding the University of Oklahoma

01:18:17.979 --> 01:18:26.619
and... The essay controversy that took place

01:18:26.619 --> 01:18:29.840
in the Department of Psychology there. I don't

01:18:29.840 --> 01:18:32.699
want to release the names, but you can find them

01:18:32.699 --> 01:18:37.220
pretty quickly on the news. But knowing that,

01:18:37.500 --> 01:18:41.800
you have, you've followed it, you've paid attention

01:18:41.800 --> 01:18:47.399
to it, right? Which, which? This is the student,

01:18:47.699 --> 01:18:51.579
just briefly. So an undergraduate student turned

01:18:51.579 --> 01:18:55.000
in an assignment that didn't follow the instructions

01:18:55.000 --> 01:18:57.880
that, as we know them, the instructions have

01:18:57.880 --> 01:18:59.779
been published out. They're out in the world.

01:18:59.840 --> 01:19:02.899
The essay's out in the world. Failed to properly

01:19:02.899 --> 01:19:06.180
cite anything, including the Bible that they

01:19:06.180 --> 01:19:10.840
had reportedly cited or referenced, not cited.

01:19:11.180 --> 01:19:15.579
Used only opinion and used that opinion to attack

01:19:15.579 --> 01:19:21.239
fellow students. Admittedly, on a news report,

01:19:21.500 --> 01:19:24.159
a local news report, didn't even read the article

01:19:24.159 --> 01:19:26.460
they were supposed to reflect on, didn't reference

01:19:26.460 --> 01:19:28.340
the article they were supposed to reflect on,

01:19:28.439 --> 01:19:31.300
and it was grammatically well below what you'd

01:19:31.300 --> 01:19:34.819
consider university level. They received a zero

01:19:34.819 --> 01:19:39.640
and were asked to redo the assignment and went

01:19:39.640 --> 01:19:42.079
to the university, to the governor of the state

01:19:42.079 --> 01:19:45.560
of Oklahoma, and to a well -known student organization,

01:19:46.000 --> 01:19:50.109
Turning Point USA. and claimed religious discrimination.

01:19:50.850 --> 01:19:53.710
The University of Oklahoma has terminated the

01:19:53.710 --> 01:19:57.789
graduate teaching instructor rather than backing

01:19:57.789 --> 01:20:02.310
up the instructor. And a couple of things, I

01:20:02.310 --> 01:20:06.050
worry about this for a few things. And one of

01:20:06.050 --> 01:20:10.149
them is, well, this incident has received national

01:20:10.149 --> 01:20:14.710
attention. Are we seeing similar instances around

01:20:14.710 --> 01:20:17.949
the country? that are just not getting as much

01:20:17.949 --> 01:20:21.590
attention. I recall at Texas A &M, there was

01:20:21.590 --> 01:20:24.550
an incident where a student recorded a lecture

01:20:24.550 --> 01:20:29.149
from a professor, and the professor, as well

01:20:29.149 --> 01:20:32.529
as the department chair, and even the university

01:20:32.529 --> 01:20:35.489
president, I believe, ended up being terminated.

01:20:35.789 --> 01:20:40.329
So are we seeing more of these instances? And

01:20:40.329 --> 01:20:47.989
in this particular case, Is it the fact that

01:20:47.989 --> 01:20:51.369
the instructor of this case was a graduate student,

01:20:51.550 --> 01:20:55.390
or was it that they were trans, or was it really

01:20:55.390 --> 01:20:59.189
a mixture of both? The fact that both of them

01:20:59.189 --> 01:21:04.270
made them vulnerable. And lastly, does this appear

01:21:04.270 --> 01:21:07.149
to be a blueprint that can be replicated elsewhere?

01:21:08.510 --> 01:21:11.729
Can any organization that says, we don't like

01:21:11.729 --> 01:21:14.310
this faculty member, so we'll have a student?

01:21:15.449 --> 01:21:18.109
turn in trash and then claim religious or political

01:21:18.109 --> 01:21:22.470
persecution. And then universities back down

01:21:22.470 --> 01:21:25.010
because they're afraid of the external pressures

01:21:25.010 --> 01:21:31.010
rather than academic vigor. Yeah, that's very

01:21:31.010 --> 01:21:37.010
complex. Yeah, events. I think, yeah, I mean,

01:21:37.029 --> 01:21:39.689
good question. I don't know. I think that...

01:21:40.440 --> 01:21:42.119
Unfortunately, I think this is going to depend

01:21:42.119 --> 01:21:44.699
largely on the region of the country that you're

01:21:44.699 --> 01:21:47.539
in also. Not to say that this wouldn't happen

01:21:47.539 --> 01:21:52.899
in, say, Massachusetts, but that I do think that

01:21:52.899 --> 01:21:57.159
like regionally that's going to like it's Oklahoma.

01:21:57.399 --> 01:21:59.920
Right. I mean, not to say that, of course, it

01:21:59.920 --> 01:22:01.079
happened there. It shouldn't happen anywhere.

01:22:01.220 --> 01:22:05.020
But that there are more restrictive states or

01:22:05.020 --> 01:22:09.810
states that are more concerned about. offending

01:22:09.810 --> 01:22:16.250
or upsetting um their the people so i think and

01:22:16.250 --> 01:22:18.489
it's a it's a public university so it's under

01:22:18.489 --> 01:22:21.329
the thumb of state legislatures and governors

01:22:21.329 --> 01:22:24.750
right so places like florida texas you know this

01:22:24.750 --> 01:22:28.289
stuff could i think could definitely happen um

01:22:28.289 --> 01:22:30.930
i mean the idea of students filming and recording

01:22:30.930 --> 01:22:34.029
is you know terrifying and they could totally

01:22:34.029 --> 01:22:41.319
do that um so i i think Yeah, I mean, I guess

01:22:41.319 --> 01:22:43.000
I'm of a few minds. And then I think that, yes,

01:22:43.060 --> 01:22:44.979
I mean, because this was sort of successful,

01:22:45.159 --> 01:22:48.699
like, I mean, in getting somebody fired and having

01:22:48.699 --> 01:22:52.939
it reach sort of national conversation, I think

01:22:52.939 --> 01:22:56.920
that, yeah, that could be some motivation to

01:22:56.920 --> 01:23:02.199
other places that want to get rid of people.

01:23:03.199 --> 01:23:06.149
At the same time, I think that it... I don't

01:23:06.149 --> 01:23:08.130
think it should be viewed as like a conspiracy,

01:23:08.449 --> 01:23:12.069
like a, cause that's scary to think about it.

01:23:12.130 --> 01:23:14.329
That like, that there's going to be people that

01:23:14.329 --> 01:23:16.869
are always looking for, you know, trying to get

01:23:16.869 --> 01:23:20.149
people out of academia or out of any sort of

01:23:20.149 --> 01:23:25.609
organization. So I don't want to think that there's

01:23:25.609 --> 01:23:29.970
going to be this witch hunt for people necessarily.

01:23:32.090 --> 01:23:35.979
But I think it. What I think that it also says

01:23:35.979 --> 01:23:38.640
is like, I mean, you, it's interesting because,

01:23:38.699 --> 01:23:41.140
I mean, we think that the university, and again,

01:23:41.140 --> 01:23:43.399
I'm thinking of a university and this is that

01:23:43.399 --> 01:23:46.340
example, but that the university in some ways

01:23:46.340 --> 01:23:50.159
is protective, right? Or it could be. It can

01:23:50.159 --> 01:23:52.600
protect its students to some extent. It can protect

01:23:52.600 --> 01:23:57.859
its staff and faculties to some extent. Because.

01:23:59.770 --> 01:24:04.149
With these claims and with academic freedom and

01:24:04.149 --> 01:24:07.670
with what science is and with what sort of the

01:24:07.670 --> 01:24:11.470
goals of higher education are, that there is

01:24:11.470 --> 01:24:14.289
seemingly some protections there until there

01:24:14.289 --> 01:24:17.369
aren't. And then all of a sudden academic freedom

01:24:17.369 --> 01:24:22.130
or whatever is incited to get rid of somebody.

01:24:22.470 --> 01:24:27.979
And so I think that it's... It's scary to think

01:24:27.979 --> 01:24:30.460
that the organization that you work for and that

01:24:30.460 --> 01:24:33.380
you spend a lot of time and energy in and that

01:24:33.380 --> 01:24:35.939
you especially as like a grad worker, you know,

01:24:35.939 --> 01:24:38.079
like you are not getting paid well. Right. But

01:24:38.079 --> 01:24:40.020
you are getting a degree and you are contributing

01:24:40.020 --> 01:24:44.319
to the university by teaching and all this. You

01:24:44.319 --> 01:24:46.039
know, the work, the labor that you're doing,

01:24:46.140 --> 01:24:50.460
that the university should protect their people.

01:24:50.560 --> 01:24:54.579
Right. And so I think that says. a ton, of course,

01:24:54.600 --> 01:24:56.920
about that specific institution. I don't think

01:24:56.920 --> 01:25:00.439
it necessarily has to say a ton about academia

01:25:00.439 --> 01:25:04.159
at the moment, I hope, unless there's going to,

01:25:04.180 --> 01:25:06.359
I mean, less like across the country, there's,

01:25:06.359 --> 01:25:09.640
you know, cases of this happening, which I hope

01:25:09.640 --> 01:25:13.479
not. But I think it says a ton about that university.

01:25:13.819 --> 01:25:17.699
And that, I mean, i would hope that that i mean

01:25:17.699 --> 01:25:20.060
that is going to affect who applies to work at

01:25:20.060 --> 01:25:21.779
that institution right that is going to affect

01:25:21.779 --> 01:25:24.880
the students that go to that institution i mean

01:25:24.880 --> 01:25:27.159
it could motivate students to go to that institution

01:25:27.159 --> 01:25:28.899
if you're under a certain mindset right it could

01:25:28.899 --> 01:25:31.819
also motivate people to not go to that institution

01:25:31.819 --> 01:25:34.539
um so i think that was that's an institutional

01:25:34.539 --> 01:25:37.119
failure right and that's what i think is more

01:25:37.119 --> 01:25:39.699
concerning that yes there's going to be these

01:25:39.699 --> 01:25:42.460
complaints about professors about instructors

01:25:42.460 --> 01:25:46.819
about curriculum that are brought up by people

01:25:46.819 --> 01:25:49.779
in, you know, that disagree with what you're

01:25:49.779 --> 01:25:53.199
teaching, but that the university should absolutely

01:25:53.199 --> 01:25:56.020
protect you. And that it shouldn't have to go

01:25:56.020 --> 01:25:58.279
up to the president to do this, but like, if

01:25:58.279 --> 01:25:59.880
it does, then they should protect you too, but

01:25:59.880 --> 01:26:02.939
that this should be handled. Hopefully you should

01:26:02.939 --> 01:26:07.380
be protected. So I think that it says a lot about

01:26:07.380 --> 01:26:09.840
that particular institution and how that can

01:26:09.840 --> 01:26:12.319
happen. And it is scary to think about, but I

01:26:12.319 --> 01:26:15.199
don't think. that it's necessarily an epidemic.

01:26:15.619 --> 01:26:18.140
But I mean, the same could also, you could talk

01:26:18.140 --> 01:26:20.939
about like what people are posting on Instagram,

01:26:21.220 --> 01:26:24.399
right? People, professors are getting fired for

01:26:24.399 --> 01:26:26.520
not speaking for the institution, right? And

01:26:26.520 --> 01:26:29.180
they're personally posting things against wars

01:26:29.180 --> 01:26:32.579
and against genocides and what have you. And

01:26:32.579 --> 01:26:36.039
then concerned citizens like go up the chain

01:26:36.039 --> 01:26:38.079
and make a complaint and that professor gets

01:26:38.079 --> 01:26:41.439
fired. So that's how, you know, that's happening.

01:26:42.090 --> 01:26:45.810
um where in again that where academic freedom

01:26:45.810 --> 01:26:50.109
and where um you know um the right to say things

01:26:50.109 --> 01:26:55.630
uh is out the window um where then where in like

01:26:55.630 --> 01:26:58.250
academia that has been the safe space so i mean

01:26:58.250 --> 01:27:02.090
those things do scare me and concern me for sure

01:27:02.090 --> 01:27:04.590
but again they're taking place in very specific

01:27:04.590 --> 01:27:08.050
locations across the country um in conservative

01:27:08.050 --> 01:27:14.439
leaning uh governed areas um and which is not

01:27:14.439 --> 01:27:17.560
good uh but that that um i don't think it's a

01:27:17.560 --> 01:27:22.439
wholesale um attack or concern necessarily though

01:27:22.439 --> 01:27:26.359
i mean it does absolutely concern me uh but yeah

01:27:26.359 --> 01:27:29.479
i i don't know i i hope that this isn't a trend

01:27:29.479 --> 01:27:33.600
that we're gonna see um i mean yeah i hope it's

01:27:33.600 --> 01:27:37.319
not yeah i know i mean i'm definitely someone

01:27:37.319 --> 01:27:40.710
that I post a lot on social media of my beliefs

01:27:40.710 --> 01:27:42.729
and things like that. And I mean, I've gotten,

01:27:42.810 --> 01:27:45.189
like, my dad's called me and been like, you're

01:27:45.189 --> 01:27:46.510
going to get fired and everything's going to

01:27:46.510 --> 01:27:49.010
be like, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, actually,

01:27:49.149 --> 01:27:51.430
like, if I do for that, like, and this is probably

01:27:51.430 --> 01:27:53.229
like a really privileged standpoint to have,

01:27:53.289 --> 01:27:55.829
but I'm like, if I do, do I want to work there?

01:27:56.210 --> 01:28:01.130
Like, and like, I can say that because, you know,

01:28:01.130 --> 01:28:02.930
in my head, I'm like, well, then I'll just find

01:28:02.930 --> 01:28:04.949
a different job. And that's a very privileged

01:28:04.949 --> 01:28:07.840
standpoint to have. But it's like. I don't, I

01:28:07.840 --> 01:28:09.260
don't know if I'd want to work at a place that

01:28:09.260 --> 01:28:12.439
would fire me for saying genocide's bad. I don't

01:28:12.439 --> 01:28:17.300
know. Like, okay. But yeah, it's, it's, we'll,

01:28:17.300 --> 01:28:22.600
I guess only future will tell, but. Yeah. Like,

01:28:22.600 --> 01:28:25.760
I mean, do you actually in like Canada, do you,

01:28:25.760 --> 01:28:28.600
could you, do you see this happening? Canada?

01:28:28.680 --> 01:28:34.039
I actually, you know, it was one of those things

01:28:34.039 --> 01:28:38.529
where I would say. If you asked me a year ago,

01:28:38.609 --> 01:28:44.050
I'd say no, it could never happen. But more and

01:28:44.050 --> 01:28:51.470
more, I think it could in Alberta. Outside of

01:28:51.470 --> 01:28:54.909
Alberta, I don't really see it happening. But

01:28:54.909 --> 01:28:59.609
there's a reason why we call Alberta Texas of

01:28:59.609 --> 01:29:06.319
the North. or Canadian, Texas, or however you

01:29:06.319 --> 01:29:09.380
want to put it. It has the exact same mindset.

01:29:09.479 --> 01:29:13.359
And right now they have a government that, hey,

01:29:13.420 --> 01:29:15.680
what's Greg Abbott doing? Let's do the same.

01:29:15.819 --> 01:29:24.060
And that is a problem. But also throughout Canada,

01:29:24.140 --> 01:29:28.659
they have the faculty, even grad students and

01:29:28.659 --> 01:29:31.439
graduate instructors and TAs and whatnot, graduate

01:29:31.439 --> 01:29:36.920
staff. have rather strong unions compared to

01:29:36.920 --> 01:29:40.720
what's in the United States, which allows for

01:29:40.720 --> 01:29:44.020
a lot of those protections that we just don't

01:29:44.020 --> 01:29:47.319
have here in the U .S. So that's why I think

01:29:47.319 --> 01:29:52.020
with this case in OU, I wonder if part of the

01:29:52.020 --> 01:29:54.159
reason why it was allowed to take place, yes,

01:29:54.260 --> 01:29:58.760
it was a trans instructor, but also it was a

01:29:58.760 --> 01:30:01.300
grad student. And grad students have almost no

01:30:01.300 --> 01:30:05.199
protection. they can easily be jettisoned and

01:30:05.199 --> 01:30:08.520
the university wouldn't, it wouldn't hurt the

01:30:08.520 --> 01:30:10.920
university one way or another, even with a discrimination

01:30:10.920 --> 01:30:15.439
loss. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely, unfortunately,

01:30:15.479 --> 01:30:18.279
yes, I agree that the grad students have far

01:30:18.279 --> 01:30:21.859
fewer protections for sure. And that that, yeah,

01:30:21.939 --> 01:30:26.260
was a part of this process, but I mean, who knows

01:30:26.260 --> 01:30:28.579
what would happen if it were a trans professor?

01:30:28.680 --> 01:30:31.680
I mean, I don't know. I can't, I can't say that

01:30:31.680 --> 01:30:35.140
they wouldn't. do the same thing if it were a

01:30:35.140 --> 01:30:38.140
trans professor uh it just maybe they just don't

01:30:38.140 --> 01:30:43.199
know right and i think time will tell yeah i

01:30:43.199 --> 01:30:48.060
think i i hope you are right that this is a one

01:30:48.060 --> 01:30:53.199
-off and limited to just here but i worry if

01:30:53.199 --> 01:30:57.100
particularly given the power of the student organization

01:30:57.100 --> 01:31:00.380
involved it's one of the most powerful organizations

01:31:00.380 --> 01:31:03.699
you know private organizations we have here.

01:31:03.819 --> 01:31:06.859
This is the one founded by Charlie Kirk and now

01:31:06.859 --> 01:31:10.720
run by Erica Kirk. They have a direct line to

01:31:10.720 --> 01:31:20.340
the White House. Do they see it as a potential

01:31:20.340 --> 01:31:25.500
way to get rid of faculty that they've long argued

01:31:25.500 --> 01:31:30.399
need to go? Time will tell. Yeah, well, I hope

01:31:30.399 --> 01:31:33.399
this serves as a motivation for, I mean, universities

01:31:33.399 --> 01:31:36.180
and professors and departments or whatever level

01:31:36.180 --> 01:31:38.159
we're talking about. I mean, to become I mean,

01:31:38.159 --> 01:31:40.479
to be more savvy and to think about these things.

01:31:40.539 --> 01:31:45.039
But I mean, to be savvy about this, not not saying

01:31:45.039 --> 01:31:47.359
that they don't teach a certain thing, but just

01:31:47.359 --> 01:31:52.520
that they they understand their their protections,

01:31:52.659 --> 01:31:55.000
their limitations of what the university can

01:31:55.000 --> 01:32:01.920
and cannot do. And that and just how we navigate

01:32:01.920 --> 01:32:05.840
these these these confrontations. I mean, I really

01:32:05.840 --> 01:32:09.220
yeah, I hope that it's just serving not just

01:32:09.220 --> 01:32:11.239
it shouldn't be on the professor necessarily.

01:32:11.460 --> 01:32:12.859
I mean, obviously, that's going to be on our

01:32:12.859 --> 01:32:15.659
mind no matter what. But like it should be at

01:32:15.659 --> 01:32:18.260
the higher levels of like, how can we protect

01:32:18.260 --> 01:32:21.699
particularly the grad student instructors because

01:32:21.699 --> 01:32:26.319
they have less protections than employees? But

01:32:26.319 --> 01:32:29.039
that I mean, it really should be conversations

01:32:29.039 --> 01:32:32.600
at like the presidential level of universities.

01:32:32.640 --> 01:32:35.720
Right. Or of like dean levels, administrative

01:32:35.720 --> 01:32:40.779
levels in how to not get to those levels. Right.

01:32:40.859 --> 01:32:44.340
And how to actually protect. So, I mean, hopefully

01:32:44.340 --> 01:32:47.779
that's motivating universities and that the impetus

01:32:47.779 --> 01:32:50.720
or the onus isn't on the individual instructor.

01:32:50.960 --> 01:32:53.520
I mean, obviously, like every instructor has.

01:32:54.279 --> 01:32:57.140
um responsibilities and and to their institution

01:32:57.140 --> 01:33:00.020
but that um that hopefully it doesn't come down

01:33:00.020 --> 01:33:04.659
to just blaming uh and targeting uh an instructor

01:33:04.659 --> 01:33:08.340
um but that this is like a you know a systemic

01:33:08.340 --> 01:33:10.340
problem that needs to be handled from like administrative

01:33:10.340 --> 01:33:13.760
levels right so i don't know i hope that they

01:33:13.760 --> 01:33:16.760
become more savvy in navigating these potential

01:33:16.760 --> 01:33:24.520
challenges Sean, I want to thank you so much

01:33:24.520 --> 01:33:30.380
for joining us today. It's been a very informative

01:33:30.380 --> 01:33:34.560
and I think for me, interesting conversation.

01:33:34.600 --> 01:33:38.420
It's one I always enjoy discussing with people.

01:33:38.560 --> 01:33:43.159
So I want to thank you for joining us this afternoon.

01:33:43.819 --> 01:33:51.949
And for our guests out there. Is there a way

01:33:51.949 --> 01:33:54.850
they can contact you if they have any questions

01:33:54.850 --> 01:33:59.789
or things like that? Sure. Yeah. People are welcome

01:33:59.789 --> 01:34:03.829
to reach out over email. My email is Tallman,

01:34:03.909 --> 01:34:10.659
Tallman. at bu .edu. Also, if people are on Blue

01:34:10.659 --> 01:34:13.439
Sky, though I don't really post that often at

01:34:13.439 --> 01:34:17.279
all, but the Forensic and Bioanthropology Lab

01:34:17.279 --> 01:34:23.560
Group or Fab Lab at BU has a, we have a Blue

01:34:23.560 --> 01:34:26.199
Sky account. So you could do it that way as well,

01:34:26.279 --> 01:34:30.500
but probably email talman at bu .edu is probably

01:34:30.500 --> 01:34:32.640
the best way. But, and thank you so much for

01:34:32.640 --> 01:34:34.960
the invite to talk with you all. It's been. a

01:34:34.960 --> 01:34:37.779
pleasure even if it's a potentially stressful

01:34:37.779 --> 01:34:41.720
conversation I mean you gotta have those conversations

01:34:41.720 --> 01:34:45.020
and I think that's why stuff like this is important

01:34:45.020 --> 01:34:48.119
because if we shy away from the hard conversations

01:34:48.119 --> 01:34:50.979
then they never get had and things never change

01:34:50.979 --> 01:34:54.479
and so I guess one thing that I kind of let's

01:34:54.479 --> 01:34:57.140
talk into y 'all more to the audience but if

01:34:57.140 --> 01:35:01.899
the conversation today like you know, made you

01:35:01.899 --> 01:35:03.779
think about something different than you maybe

01:35:03.779 --> 01:35:07.560
had before, or you have more questions, you know,

01:35:07.579 --> 01:35:10.420
you can always reach out to us and we can give

01:35:10.420 --> 01:35:14.060
you resources or other things like that. But

01:35:14.060 --> 01:35:18.100
it's also okay to like, admit, oh, I didn't actually

01:35:18.100 --> 01:35:20.920
understand this before. And maybe my mind's changed.

01:35:21.000 --> 01:35:25.640
And that's okay to, you know, learning what diversity

01:35:25.640 --> 01:35:29.039
is, unless you talked about it with someone who

01:35:29.039 --> 01:35:31.739
understands it. you might not get it. And it's

01:35:31.739 --> 01:35:35.579
okay to have not understood and want to know

01:35:35.579 --> 01:35:38.399
more. And so, you know, do your own research,

01:35:38.659 --> 01:35:41.659
find the articles, reach out to people who know

01:35:41.659 --> 01:35:45.159
more than you, and that's all good. Make sure

01:35:45.159 --> 01:35:48.720
the research and articles are credible. Yeah,

01:35:48.739 --> 01:35:53.899
yeah, yeah. Don't do Wikipedia. You know. There's

01:35:53.899 --> 01:35:58.319
some bad stuff out there. There is. people love

01:35:58.319 --> 01:36:01.239
being reached out to about their papers and stuff

01:36:01.239 --> 01:36:05.630
so if like students at all can't get access or

01:36:05.630 --> 01:36:08.710
anybody can't get access to a person's paper,

01:36:08.850 --> 01:36:12.409
reaching out to the authors, they will gladly

01:36:12.409 --> 01:36:15.609
give you the paper for free. You should never

01:36:15.609 --> 01:36:19.029
pay for a paper. So engaging with people about

01:36:19.029 --> 01:36:21.229
their work, they love it. We love getting those

01:36:21.229 --> 01:36:24.529
emails because we don't often, or it depends.

01:36:24.729 --> 01:36:30.649
So it's nice to get asked to provide a paper

01:36:30.649 --> 01:36:33.920
or to say that. I read your paper or can I get

01:36:33.920 --> 01:36:36.340
this paper? Because I will gladly provide it.

01:36:36.380 --> 01:36:38.960
So yeah, reach out if people can't get stuff.

01:36:39.140 --> 01:36:41.560
I mean, I've definitely had people that are like,

01:36:41.640 --> 01:36:43.460
can I have your phone number just to call you?

01:36:43.500 --> 01:36:44.760
Because I want to talk about this thing. And

01:36:44.760 --> 01:36:48.880
I'm like, 100%. I spent a year and a half on

01:36:48.880 --> 01:36:51.180
this thesis. Yeah, I want to talk about it. Let's

01:36:51.180 --> 01:36:54.399
go. And I'm sure it's the same for people who

01:36:54.399 --> 01:36:57.680
spent six years on their dissertations or a lifelong

01:36:57.680 --> 01:37:00.729
research on. you know a topic that they've had

01:37:00.729 --> 01:37:04.069
lots of papers on um we do it because we're interested

01:37:04.069 --> 01:37:08.050
in it so most people are more than happy to talk

01:37:08.050 --> 01:37:10.270
about it maybe someone just finished their dissertation

01:37:10.270 --> 01:37:12.470
give them six months so they can decompress but

01:37:12.470 --> 01:37:18.329
i don't want to think about mine but yeah just

01:37:18.329 --> 01:37:21.850
reach out and ask more questions and questions

01:37:21.850 --> 01:37:25.800
are never bad so Again, I want to thank you,

01:37:25.819 --> 01:37:27.920
Sean. It's been a very pleasant conversation,

01:37:28.260 --> 01:37:31.880
very interesting one. And Stephanie, you and

01:37:31.880 --> 01:37:36.720
I, we will next be, for those of you out there,

01:37:36.779 --> 01:37:41.239
we will be live at New Orleans with the American

01:37:41.239 --> 01:37:44.239
Academy of Forensic Sciences meeting. Still going

01:37:44.239 --> 01:37:45.899
to try to figure out how we're going to do it,

01:37:45.939 --> 01:37:51.899
but we'll have a show there. You know, with a

01:37:51.899 --> 01:37:55.539
party called Drink in Hand and everything else.

01:37:56.199 --> 01:38:01.000
Of course. We've got to have good drink. But

01:38:01.000 --> 01:38:03.520
yeah, thank you all again for listening and we'll

01:38:03.520 --> 01:38:08.159
see you next time on The Bone Club. Bye. Bye.

01:38:09.060 --> 01:38:11.760
Hello, friends. We here at The Bone Club understand

01:38:11.760 --> 01:38:14.100
how difficult it is for students to break into

01:38:14.100 --> 01:38:17.060
the field of forensic anthropology. To help with

01:38:17.060 --> 01:38:19.619
that cause, we have decided to monetize in a

01:38:19.619 --> 01:38:22.060
way... by setting up an account with Patreon.

01:38:22.760 --> 01:38:25.399
All proceeds will be donated to the anthropology

01:38:25.399 --> 01:38:28.060
section of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences

01:38:28.060 --> 01:38:31.220
to help alleviate the cost of attending an annual

01:38:31.220 --> 01:38:35.819
scientific conference for students. If you can,

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we have set up four membership tiers with patreon

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.com slash theboneclub that range from $3 a month

01:38:44.079 --> 01:38:49.000
to our patrons of the bones at $15 a month. We

01:38:49.000 --> 01:38:51.920
hope... some of you can join us in this worthy

01:38:51.920 --> 01:38:54.600
endeavor of breaking down the barrier of cost

01:38:54.600 --> 01:38:57.340
that keeps many students away from these important

01:38:57.340 --> 01:39:01.439
conferences. So if you can, please join us at

01:39:01.439 --> 01:39:06.420
patreon .com slash the bone club. Thank you and

01:39:06.420 --> 01:39:08.939
may your skeletons always be complete.