WEBVTT

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down to my bones Good evening, everyone, and

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welcome back to a wonderful episode of The Bone

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Club. With us tonight, I have Jenna, who was

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with us last week. Were you with us last week,

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Jenna, or were you gone? I was celebrating Canadian

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Thanksgiving. Yeah, you were celebrating Canadian

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Thanksgiving, so you were out. But this time,

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Stephanie's gone. She's traveling around. And

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Jenna is with us today. We also have with us

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a rather sharp left turn from normal. We have

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two individuals with us, both Brett Robinson

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and Nick Olderive from Please Bring Me Home,

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neither of which are anthropologists. They work

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with an organization that brings attention to

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and helps search for Canadians, Canada's missing

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persons, long missing persons. So Brett and Nick,

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welcome to the Bone Club. Thanks for having us

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here. Yeah, thanks for inviting us in. So I guess

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where I want to get started, normally we ask

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our guests what got them into forensic anthropology,

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but I guess for you both, what got y 'all interested

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in this? searching for missing persons, and organizing

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Please Bring Me Home. I'll start. So I'm Nick

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Oldreave, and I'm the executive director and

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co -founder. And it was really started simply

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put. uh to cause commotion around historical

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missing persons in the hopes that they could

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be located and uh you know that kind of graduated

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to organizing searches and um you know it the

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amount of pictures of bones i've taken and sent

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to you ashley it's kind of remarkable that i

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still cannot even tell you anything about what

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i'm looking at when i send you pictures of bones

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um but uh yeah it's it's always been this more

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can certainly be done and the family should not

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feel like there is nothing happening on their

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missing family members disappearance there should

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always be something happening it should always

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be treated like it happened yesterday And my

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name is Brett Robinson. I'm Director of Case

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Analysis for Please Bring Me Home. So I oversee

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our investigative team, which is generally acting

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as a sounding board for our 20 -something investigators

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that we have spread across Canada. I'm a business

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person by trade, but academically, I lean more

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towards investigations work. I have master's

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degrees in profiling and behavior analysis and

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counseling psychology. I'm a registered psychotherapist

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and a private investigator as well. I joined

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Please Bring Me Home when I was four. and a half

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years ago, I think now, mainly because my mom

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had seen Nick on W5. And I was starting to investigate

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some cases on my own. My mom saw the program

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referred me over to please bring me home. I had

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an interview and joined as an investigator. At

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the time I closed the oldest case we had closed,

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which was 14 years, I think at that point, a

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gentleman disappeared 14 years ago, and I found

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him alive and well in Toronto, which was the

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best possible ending and I was hooked on doing

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missing persons cases initially for me it was

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it was a thrill to try and find these people

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but then I began speaking with the families and

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when you see the pain the trauma the fear that

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they have then it became something a little deeper

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for me at that point and i became a real advocate

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for those families uh to draw attention as nick

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said to the cases to push those cases forward

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as much as we can work with police work with

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the public work with the families and hopefully

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bring the best possible conclusions that we can

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for these families so what got you about i mean

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nick what got you interested even just in the

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very beginning of hey, this is something I want

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to do? You know, I've been asked that so many

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times, and it boils down to curiosity. And this

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is called the bone club, and I'm a bonehead.

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I get attached to an idea, and I become curious

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about it. That's kind of how it started. I became

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curious about Lisa Moss, who I'm missing in July

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of 1988. local to where I grew up. And, you know,

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I just, I had a soft spot for it. So it started

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with putting an ad in the paper, just, you know,

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with Lisa's father's blessing that if someone

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knows something, just say something. And it wasn't

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even to come to us. It was to go to police. But

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what happened was people started to come to us

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instead of police. So we said, okay, well, let's

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open up an anonymous website for Lisa. We built

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a website overnight. And started to get tips

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in and then W5 happened and more families wanted

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help and more people wanted to join. And that's

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kind of how it turned into what it is now. It

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was never the intention to be this nationwide

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organization where you have all these members

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and are assisting all these families. It started

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off with a curiosity for Lisa Moss and then it

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just really blew up because. no one should you

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know be told no if they're a family member seeking

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help for their missing loved one ever so we we

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mold it into what is needed i think is at the

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end of the day and that's kind of where you know

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more things um change and please bring home grows

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and we become better every day I still 10 years

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down the line almost 10 years down the line and

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learning something new every day about investigating

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a historical missing persons case searching for

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somebody you know rewriting some policies or

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procedures like you and I talked about a couple

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months ago like it's there's always more to be

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done that's for sure um if if I was say a a family

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member who my a someone in my family's been missing

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and i i contacted you what is that process and

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procedure for you guys yeah so you have from

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first to last yeah so i'll get you up to the

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investigative side and then i'll let brett take

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it from there so uh the family member so you

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fill out an intake online it used to just be

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three questions now it's like 20 questions and

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we get a lot of information on the missing person

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we have an intake officer who then reaches out

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to the family member who filled out the intake

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and asks an additional 20 questions over the

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phone these may be a little bit harder You don't

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want the family to have to fill out these questions

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online. You want to be the one asking them and

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them telling you and you typing it in. And these

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are some more difficult questions to type in

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for family members. So they fill that out. And

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then, you know, we, Brett, myself, and another

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director offer our thoughts and observations

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based on the intake we read. It gets filed and

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then it gets put up on our social media and on

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our website. And then ideally it gets assigned

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to an investigation team member and then Brett

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can take it from there. Yeah. And one thing to

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keep in mind is we have, you know, over a hundred

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cases and we have, you know, just over 20 investigators.

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So not every case can be actively investigated.

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Sometimes they are in an extremely difficult

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to reach location. that requires a physical search

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and we don't have the human power to be able

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to do that. But the cases that are assigned to

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investigators that we begin investigating, it's

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really up to the investigator to determine the

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path that we're going to take. You know, with

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a missing person, really the person could have

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ran away. They could have passed away in an unknown

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location. due to misadventure, drug overdose,

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suicide, things like that. They could have been

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the victim of foul play. And so determining which

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way we're going to go is... critically important

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for the investigator to make that decision. Myself,

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as I said, I'm a sounding board, so the investigators

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will reach out to me to help determine that direction

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they're going to go in. I've had the privilege

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of looking across over 100 cases, and I've seen

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what has worked in certain cases, so I can ideally

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recirculate those. pieces of information back

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to the investigator to help inform the direction

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that they go in. And one of the hardest things

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is maintaining objectivity. We all get attached

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to, you know, what we think is going to be the

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thing that leads us to solve this case, particularly

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when you first start. And that's myself included.

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The first search I went on. I was going to find

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the person and probably every other person that

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ever disappeared. I was going to find them all

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in one search. And guess what? That didn't happen.

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And for the most part, it takes. many, many searches

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to be able to find anything. And by finding,

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I also mean eliminating areas, which is a critical

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piece of information for us. But overall, I work

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with the investigators to determine the investigative

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direction. And then is it going to require a

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physical search? We have a director of search

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who helps plan that out. So if we are going to

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search a certain geographical region, we have

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to set the boundaries on that, organize a team

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to do that. Are we going to use a cadaver dog

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team? or search and rescue a dog, for instance,

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or we're going to do a grid search. All of these

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different things go into planning, but it starts

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with the investigation. One of the most critical

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pieces of investigation is the ability to pick

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up our cell phone and call people. Critical.

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And over the years, we've learned that investigators

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that are comfortable doing that and being told.

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to not call back and maybe sometimes still calling

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back that's a critical piece because the vast

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majority of other than a person disappearing

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in a wilderness area the vast majority of cases

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that we've closed are come through through tips

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through people giving us information and the

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ability to solicit those tips is important for

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us not just for the actual person that we're

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calling but because they then talk and tell people

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in their community that i spoke with someone

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from please bring me home and that can drum up

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memories it can drum up a willingness to speak

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with us and we spend a lot of time on the phones

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speaking with people monitoring blogs responding

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to tips uh that flow in through our websites

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and other places so all of that blends together

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in the investigative efforts that we put forward,

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as well as connecting with police. Police is

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generally a one -way channel of information in

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that we give police information and not necessarily

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a lot comes back to us. But we understand that,

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that that's the nature of it. And our investigators

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are all taught to make contact with the detective

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that's in charge of the case right away. When

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you start that investigative process, I know,

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and you mentioned that discussing with police

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is a one -way street. but is there a way to look

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at records talk talk to them see what has been

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done in the past so that you sort of know you

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know what's been eliminated what hasn't been

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eliminated um you you have some sort of foundation

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to go on And when talking with, you know, the

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people in the community and getting that information

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from people within the community is, does Please

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Bring Me Home have a way of sort of sifting through?

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in essence, a level of credibility within that

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information. Right. Well, I would say our credibility

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with police has been growing over the years.

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Nick, myself, and another director presented

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at the Center of Forensic Sciences to the OPP's

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working group of missing persons police units.

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I believe there was 25 different police units

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that were there. There were over 50 police officers.

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And we presented there at the time we had closed,

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I believe it was 24 cases up until that time.

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Our current number, I believe, is 38. And that's

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something that police forces can't deny. Now,

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many, many police that we work with are fantastic,

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love working with us. Police are very, very open

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with us with what they can be. So when we're

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working with police, they are far more likely

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to be open about where an area has been searched.

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You know, if we search, you know, east of the

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river, let's say hypothetically, and that information

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is typically police are more willing to speak

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with us about it. Obviously, in other cases,

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no, they're not going to tell us hold back information

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that they may have on a homicide. That's not

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going to come up. Obviously, but in terms of

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physical searches, we find that police, particularly

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with police forces that we've worked with, understand

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that we do have some strong capabilities. We

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do conduct really effective searches and we can

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help eliminate areas that they either don't have

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the resource to search or can't necessarily get

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permission to search. Again, we have a far lower

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threshold to engage on a search than what. Police

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would. So we can just discuss it amongst ourselves

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and agree, yeah, we're going to search this area.

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Police might need to jump through a lot more

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hoops than us within their chain of command to

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actually execute something like that. And they

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appreciate that we're going to go do it and they

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know any evidence we find is going to be handed

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over to them. right away now police can't ask

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us to do anything that would be a liability issue

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that would essentially be deputizing us and they

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can't ask us hey please bring me home can you

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search this area however they can be you know

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are generally grateful that we are out in the

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field on physical searches and um they they respect

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our professionalism when we're doing interviews

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and such police ultimately in a um If there's

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any type of foul play suspected in any of these

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disappearances, they want to present a prosecutable

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case. They want to hand over the evidence to

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the Crown Attorney here in Canada and they want

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to get a conviction. And in that regard, the

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efforts we put in, they are more nervous about

00:15:40.980 --> 00:15:43.539
because they worry that we're going to trample

00:15:43.539 --> 00:15:45.519
over somehow some part of the investigation.

00:15:46.429 --> 00:15:48.289
For the best of my knowledge, that's never happened.

00:15:48.330 --> 00:15:50.769
And we have advanced dozens and dozens of cases

00:15:50.769 --> 00:15:54.649
for prosecution. But in the sense of looking

00:15:54.649 --> 00:15:57.450
for a missing person out in the, let's say, in

00:15:57.450 --> 00:16:00.429
a geographical region, police tend to be very

00:16:00.429 --> 00:16:03.289
open with us about the areas that have been searched.

00:16:03.590 --> 00:16:07.250
And we're grateful for that. That allows a type

00:16:07.250 --> 00:16:09.889
of unofficial teamwork. It's not official teamwork,

00:16:10.090 --> 00:16:13.789
but it is unofficial teamwork. Yeah. And on that.

00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:17.019
You know, I always like to refer back to Eric

00:16:17.019 --> 00:16:20.620
Spencer, who went missing from Thornbury, Ontario

00:16:20.620 --> 00:16:25.440
and was last seen in Honey Harbour, Ontario.

00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:29.799
That's the very first time that the Ontario Provincial

00:16:29.799 --> 00:16:33.539
Police gave us access to previous search maps.

00:16:33.980 --> 00:16:36.559
And we were able to look at that and come up

00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:42.000
with a reasonable degree of possibility. that

00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:44.500
we could locate eric if we followed one type

00:16:44.500 --> 00:16:47.720
of um strategy and we certainly did we ended

00:16:47.720 --> 00:16:49.840
up finding him after 90 minutes of searching

00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:53.299
by sticking with the strategy we came up with

00:16:53.299 --> 00:16:58.179
because we saw this map so that has been a basis

00:16:58.179 --> 00:17:02.039
of argument um when we're going to other detachments

00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:06.799
asking for uh the police searches like look it

00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:10.150
worked here Why wouldn't we do that here? Even

00:17:10.150 --> 00:17:12.369
if it's possibly foul play, just let us know

00:17:12.369 --> 00:17:16.089
where you searched. If they're not going to give

00:17:16.089 --> 00:17:19.190
us the maps, we can talk about Jack and Lily

00:17:19.190 --> 00:17:21.509
Sullivan briefly, but we're going to go up and

00:17:21.509 --> 00:17:23.529
do a search for the two missing kids up in Nova

00:17:23.529 --> 00:17:29.019
Scotia this upcoming weekend. you know that although

00:17:29.019 --> 00:17:32.160
they didn't share us maps we've had very good

00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:34.799
communication with the rcmp where they've been

00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:38.380
able to give us information on what was cleared

00:17:38.380 --> 00:17:40.019
and when it was cleared and they've also released

00:17:40.019 --> 00:17:42.200
some of that information to the public and it's

00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:45.119
been fantastic from a search planning perspective

00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:48.599
where we want to focus our strategy on and i

00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:51.220
would compare it a lot to the strategy we're

00:17:51.220 --> 00:17:55.559
focusing on when it came to eric spencer so do

00:17:55.559 --> 00:18:00.809
you have or And maybe this is something you might

00:18:00.809 --> 00:18:07.529
be able to get in the future, hopefully. A relationship

00:18:07.529 --> 00:18:12.789
with medical examiner's offices, coroner's offices

00:18:12.789 --> 00:18:21.190
to – when you begin searching for a missing person,

00:18:21.329 --> 00:18:27.059
to inquire if there are any sort of – Unidentified

00:18:27.059 --> 00:18:33.599
individuals that have been – that are on the

00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:37.640
books in a given timeframe for what you're looking

00:18:37.640 --> 00:18:44.039
for. So maybe this might be where we can also

00:18:44.039 --> 00:18:48.380
look. Was there an unidentified that was brought

00:18:48.380 --> 00:18:55.119
in? And just look there and also – start doing

00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:59.480
other investigative areas as well or is that

00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:04.940
an area that is still walled off well we wouldn't

00:19:04.940 --> 00:19:07.819
say it's walled off nick would you say yeah i

00:19:07.819 --> 00:19:10.119
wouldn't say it's walled off i think it really

00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:14.319
um there's kind of a two -parter there because

00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:19.039
you know in the initial investigation there's

00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:21.390
a few steps that really need that the investigator

00:19:21.390 --> 00:19:24.309
really needs to accomplish. And one of those

00:19:24.309 --> 00:19:27.569
steps is looking at the identified remains data,

00:19:27.569 --> 00:19:30.430
like looking at the what is up there for identified

00:19:30.430 --> 00:19:32.650
remains. Could it match with your missing person?

00:19:33.029 --> 00:19:35.569
That's something that they need to do really

00:19:35.569 --> 00:19:38.089
in the beginning. And some of the other steps

00:19:38.089 --> 00:19:41.009
include talking to other family members, communicating

00:19:41.009 --> 00:19:43.230
with law enforcement before you even really get

00:19:43.230 --> 00:19:45.190
out there and start your investigation. These

00:19:45.190 --> 00:19:48.420
are things that need to happen. The other part

00:19:48.420 --> 00:19:52.519
is when we're searching an area, are there other

00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:54.799
missing, are there other people who've gone missing

00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:57.839
around this area that we need to consider as

00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:00.920
well? You know, are we really just looking for

00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:05.299
someone who went missing three months ago who

00:20:05.299 --> 00:20:08.259
had a pink backpack and was wearing a winter

00:20:08.259 --> 00:20:11.779
coat? But should we really truly be focusing

00:20:11.779 --> 00:20:14.299
on also older remains that could be in those

00:20:14.299 --> 00:20:16.099
woods? So there's kind of a two -parter with

00:20:16.099 --> 00:20:19.160
that. in terms of communicating with coroner's

00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:23.720
offices it's been touch and go sometimes they're

00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:27.220
they're great with um uh communicating back and

00:20:27.220 --> 00:20:29.059
forth with them other times not it'd be great

00:20:29.059 --> 00:20:32.519
if we could have some type of policy uh uh around

00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:35.480
where we can ask these questions they can give

00:20:35.480 --> 00:20:39.079
us information um again in the effort to just

00:20:39.079 --> 00:20:42.759
locate the missing people i wouldn't say it's

00:20:42.759 --> 00:20:45.380
walled off though yeah i i think it it really

00:20:45.380 --> 00:20:48.390
just depends who you get on the phone sometimes

00:20:48.390 --> 00:20:51.329
i can't remember the name of that guy out in

00:20:51.329 --> 00:20:57.569
bc brett um the last name oscar reyes um and

00:20:57.569 --> 00:21:01.710
a lot of that why that ended up being so successful

00:21:01.710 --> 00:21:04.950
in the end it was a search team that was recommended

00:21:04.950 --> 00:21:08.269
by law enforcement but some of that was through

00:21:08.859 --> 00:21:12.440
the communication that Carrie, one of our directors,

00:21:12.539 --> 00:21:17.000
had with the coroner's office there and relayed

00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:21.559
to law enforcement. And, you know, I can't remember

00:21:21.559 --> 00:21:23.519
all the details, but I mean, that was one of

00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:25.500
those moments where it's like, see, if we all

00:21:25.500 --> 00:21:27.660
do work together and we take away as much of

00:21:27.660 --> 00:21:31.480
the red tape as we can, it's more apt to be more

00:21:31.480 --> 00:21:33.599
successful. We're not here to hinder anything.

00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:36.759
We're only here to assist without police asking

00:21:36.759 --> 00:21:42.319
us to assist. And who, so you work with police

00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:44.119
and, you know, you try to work with coroners

00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:46.819
as best you can. But I understand that your teams

00:21:46.819 --> 00:21:50.619
are built up of primarily volunteers. So what

00:21:50.619 --> 00:21:52.779
are some of those, what are the skills that your

00:21:52.779 --> 00:21:54.599
volunteers are bringing in? Who are you looking

00:21:54.599 --> 00:21:56.660
for when you're bringing these teams together

00:21:56.660 --> 00:21:59.799
to kind of like build these search teams or build

00:21:59.799 --> 00:22:02.740
these investigation teams? Yeah, for the investigation

00:22:02.740 --> 00:22:05.900
side, it's not one particular type of person

00:22:05.900 --> 00:22:08.880
or one particular walk of life. Now, obviously,

00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:12.079
if someone is retired law enforcement or something

00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:14.559
like that, that's useful, particularly if they

00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:16.880
have connections within law enforcement. But

00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:19.940
we've met people who are retired law enforcement

00:22:19.940 --> 00:22:21.960
that would have the requisite skills that you

00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:24.819
would think, and this work doesn't go well for

00:22:24.819 --> 00:22:28.359
them. So we really look for people who can...

00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:30.720
make contact with other people and are comfortable

00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:33.539
speaking on the phone that have the resilience

00:22:33.539 --> 00:22:36.460
to be told, I don't want to talk to you and then

00:22:36.460 --> 00:22:39.579
to call back. That's huge to be able to do that.

00:22:39.640 --> 00:22:41.960
Some people only want to do research behind a

00:22:41.960 --> 00:22:44.660
keyboard. And while that's great, you know, we

00:22:44.660 --> 00:22:47.380
see documentaries where, you know, mysteries

00:22:47.380 --> 00:22:49.380
are solved through behind a keyboard. But in

00:22:49.380 --> 00:22:52.200
reality, that generally doesn't happen. You need

00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:53.819
to have the ability to reach out and communicate

00:22:53.819 --> 00:22:56.799
with people to maintain objectivity. That's huge.

00:22:56.980 --> 00:22:59.680
I mean, you have to aggressively explore multiple

00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:02.559
investigative avenues that are diametrically

00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:05.519
opposed or mutually exclusive. Only one of those

00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:07.700
things happened or maybe none of them happened.

00:23:08.279 --> 00:23:10.839
And I would say most importantly is resilience.

00:23:11.380 --> 00:23:15.819
You know, cold case work is like being on a raft

00:23:15.819 --> 00:23:17.720
in the middle of the ocean and you're going to

00:23:17.720 --> 00:23:21.240
start paddling and you don't actually know if

00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:24.180
you're making progress towards where you're going

00:23:24.180 --> 00:23:26.250
because you don't know the direction. that you're

00:23:26.250 --> 00:23:28.849
supposed to go in. So it can be very, very difficult

00:23:28.849 --> 00:23:32.329
work requires a lot of resilience. And you're

00:23:32.329 --> 00:23:33.789
generally going to meet with, you know, from

00:23:33.789 --> 00:23:35.630
an investigation side, you're going to be a lot

00:23:35.630 --> 00:23:38.089
of failure along the way. And you have to be

00:23:38.089 --> 00:23:41.109
able to handle that. And that that's critical.

00:23:41.230 --> 00:23:43.410
But people from police for me home come from

00:23:43.410 --> 00:23:47.630
all walks of life. You know, all genders, all

00:23:47.630 --> 00:23:51.869
walks of life, all ages, there is no one particular,

00:23:52.049 --> 00:23:54.519
you know, archetype. that we're looking for to

00:23:54.519 --> 00:23:56.940
be a good investigator. It's more like they have

00:23:56.940 --> 00:24:00.079
certain traits about them, but those traits don't

00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:02.519
come from one, you know, demographic or walk

00:24:02.519 --> 00:24:05.299
of life or something like that. It can be from

00:24:05.299 --> 00:24:08.799
anywhere in society, which is great. Well, 100%,

00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:13.180
it's just, and, you know, the three people who

00:24:13.180 --> 00:24:17.240
started Please Bring Me Home, I went to school

00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:20.059
for social service worker, and I worked primarily

00:24:20.059 --> 00:24:22.339
in traumatic brain injuries, rehabilitation.

00:24:23.400 --> 00:24:27.359
and uh you know matthew's a journalist and melissa

00:24:27.359 --> 00:24:30.539
is a hairdresser but it's it is that so it's

00:24:30.539 --> 00:24:33.599
that foundation of resiliency and then when more

00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:35.940
people applied people like brett and other directors

00:24:35.940 --> 00:24:39.119
and they had that same level of resiliency and

00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:43.119
we don't focus terribly much on uh on you know

00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:46.099
of course it's important but it it's not like

00:24:46.099 --> 00:24:49.440
we see someone who says they haven't worked for

00:24:50.170 --> 00:24:53.309
10 years or whatever and we're like oh we don't

00:24:53.309 --> 00:24:57.309
want that it's quite an interview process now

00:24:57.309 --> 00:24:59.890
it's you got to fill out five questions like

00:24:59.890 --> 00:25:02.690
it has really gone it's really changed over the

00:25:02.690 --> 00:25:05.269
years i think when brett applied it was probably

00:25:05.269 --> 00:25:08.089
three questions and a coffee and then we were

00:25:08.490 --> 00:25:11.190
We're off and running. Off and running. Here's

00:25:11.190 --> 00:25:14.490
the case. Have fun. And that works for some people.

00:25:14.569 --> 00:25:17.490
But we've certainly found now that, you know,

00:25:17.529 --> 00:25:19.670
you answer five questions through email. You

00:25:19.670 --> 00:25:21.809
just got to answer our questions. We're initially

00:25:21.809 --> 00:25:24.130
looking at how much care to be put into that.

00:25:24.250 --> 00:25:27.430
You know, is it are things misspelt like so much?

00:25:27.549 --> 00:25:30.779
Was it three o 'clock in the morning? You know,

00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:34.599
was certain questions at this stage, did they

00:25:34.599 --> 00:25:36.079
repeat themselves? We're looking at that. And

00:25:36.079 --> 00:25:38.420
then, okay. Did they answer with three words?

00:25:38.660 --> 00:25:41.640
I mean, not really. I mean, think about if you

00:25:41.640 --> 00:25:44.359
applied for a job, like a non -volunteer job.

00:25:44.420 --> 00:25:47.019
I mean, would you actually just fire in a couple

00:25:47.019 --> 00:25:50.500
of word answers? Probably not, right? So why

00:25:50.500 --> 00:25:52.819
for us are they, you know, if someone writes

00:25:52.819 --> 00:25:55.900
in extremely casual. responses is that really

00:25:55.900 --> 00:25:58.660
the type of person we want i would say no and

00:25:58.660 --> 00:26:01.240
i would say we have a 100 track record of those

00:26:01.240 --> 00:26:04.279
people uh in the past not working out for us

00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:09.740
yeah and so now we if we're like okay I like

00:26:09.740 --> 00:26:12.799
this person. I like what they've said. Let's

00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:14.599
get them to stage two. Stage two is a little

00:26:14.599 --> 00:26:17.180
bit more intensive. You get 22 more questions

00:26:17.180 --> 00:26:19.920
sent to you. You also need to give us your please

00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:23.000
check your resume and some references. Show us

00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:25.759
that you're really serious about this. And then

00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:29.599
if we get all that in, then we do an interview

00:26:29.599 --> 00:26:33.519
over Zoom. um with with two directors and then

00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:36.799
if we like you after that then we offer it to

00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:39.019
you and then we really get in depth with that

00:26:39.019 --> 00:26:41.539
person this is what you expected to come with

00:26:41.539 --> 00:26:43.420
us and then we're trying we love we've liked

00:26:43.420 --> 00:26:45.680
your first answers we've liked your stage two

00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:48.220
we've liked your stage three now we're selling

00:26:48.220 --> 00:26:51.599
ourselves to you this is what we do and this

00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:54.440
is why we want you um they've already done the

00:26:54.440 --> 00:26:56.039
hard works and now it's our turn and then we

00:26:56.039 --> 00:26:59.339
run them through an orientation The first month

00:26:59.339 --> 00:27:01.099
is a little bit of hand -holding when they come

00:27:01.099 --> 00:27:03.559
in to make sure. It's not really just giving

00:27:03.559 --> 00:27:05.519
a case anymore and introducing them to family.

00:27:05.680 --> 00:27:10.000
It's really having this solid support system

00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:14.359
from the three main directors. And then once

00:27:14.359 --> 00:27:17.140
they're ready, okay, now if you have anything

00:27:17.140 --> 00:27:20.279
further, Brett is your guy. You go to him if

00:27:20.279 --> 00:27:22.420
you're stuck, if it's excelling, Brett's your

00:27:22.420 --> 00:27:25.400
guy. And then because he, like he says, he oversees

00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:28.180
all the cases. Myself, Kerry, and Brett are able

00:27:28.180 --> 00:27:31.660
to, but Brett has seen more in depth what has

00:27:31.660 --> 00:27:34.400
worked on cases and what has not. And that's

00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:37.220
why that direction from him is so vital to the

00:27:37.220 --> 00:27:43.779
other team members. So you have these investigators.

00:27:45.460 --> 00:27:48.900
Without doing your physical searches, though,

00:27:49.579 --> 00:27:53.519
How do you, you have more than just investigators.

00:27:54.160 --> 00:27:58.319
There's more than just the, those investigators

00:27:58.319 --> 00:28:00.660
involved in doing physical searches. There's

00:28:00.660 --> 00:28:03.259
more than just investigators involved in that

00:28:03.259 --> 00:28:09.579
team. How are they brought into the fold? Yeah,

00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:14.380
it's, we haven't, we have consultants. So, you

00:28:14.380 --> 00:28:18.839
know, there is one gentleman who assists us and,

00:28:19.500 --> 00:28:23.599
Uh, it's people you meet as you go out and does

00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:26.500
this, please bring me home growth process. So,

00:28:26.519 --> 00:28:30.339
you know, there is a person who I would go to

00:28:30.339 --> 00:28:32.619
and say, Hey, I really want to put a freedom

00:28:32.619 --> 00:28:35.640
of information request out for, for this case,

00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:37.720
anything on this case. Can you help me fill that

00:28:37.720 --> 00:28:41.059
out? There's one where, you know, this person

00:28:41.059 --> 00:28:42.980
went missing and we just did this actually. So

00:28:42.980 --> 00:28:46.000
this person went missing in October, 1985. Can

00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:49.609
you try and track down some aerial photos? from

00:28:49.609 --> 00:28:52.789
as close to a rate before they went missing and

00:28:52.789 --> 00:28:54.690
as close to rate after they went missing. And

00:28:54.690 --> 00:28:56.750
then a year after they went missing and they

00:28:56.750 --> 00:29:00.230
can, they can go find that stuff. I cannot. So,

00:29:00.349 --> 00:29:02.349
you know, that's a consultant there, you know,

00:29:02.349 --> 00:29:06.650
Dr. Arnfield, um, is someone that, uh, that we

00:29:06.650 --> 00:29:10.170
communicate to with a variety of our cases. Hey,

00:29:10.230 --> 00:29:12.490
what do you think about this? Or this is what

00:29:12.490 --> 00:29:15.210
I'm running into. Or, um, do you think these

00:29:15.210 --> 00:29:17.369
cases can be connected from like a suspectology?

00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:22.519
criminology standpoint um you know forensic we'll

00:29:22.519 --> 00:29:25.740
never have anyone on a search that finds any

00:29:25.740 --> 00:29:29.900
bone unless it's definitely an animal skull nine

00:29:29.900 --> 00:29:33.920
times out of ten we we we take pictures and we

00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:37.500
send those off to you like a forensic anthropologist

00:29:37.500 --> 00:29:41.839
to review um We have retired members of Search

00:29:41.839 --> 00:29:44.220
and Rescue who were master searchers with the

00:29:44.220 --> 00:29:46.680
OVP that will say, here's where we're thinking

00:29:46.680 --> 00:29:48.380
of searching and here's why, what do you think?

00:29:49.059 --> 00:29:53.400
So there is a lot that goes into, we always say

00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:55.700
it's never just as simple as looking for a missing

00:29:55.700 --> 00:30:00.480
person. There's so much that goes into the thought

00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:05.500
process and building the case to get to the search

00:30:05.500 --> 00:30:08.259
area. Why do you want to search there? What makes

00:30:08.259 --> 00:30:10.680
you want to search there? You really have to

00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:14.460
talk our search director into, she's never heard

00:30:14.460 --> 00:30:16.500
about it before. Why do you want to search there?

00:30:16.940 --> 00:30:20.119
Sell it to me. And then we build the team to

00:30:20.119 --> 00:30:23.339
go out and do it. And then also, do you have,

00:30:23.380 --> 00:30:27.839
particularly on a little bit larger sites, do

00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:33.079
you bring in, say, just volunteers from that

00:30:33.079 --> 00:30:37.470
follow your website? Can they come and assist

00:30:37.470 --> 00:30:42.289
if there's a larger search? Is it just you guys

00:30:42.289 --> 00:30:47.640
and some cadaver dogs on occasion? Does that

00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:51.079
take place? Well, if it's a search with cadaver

00:30:51.079 --> 00:30:53.519
dogs, it's typically just like the investigator

00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:56.960
and the block tracks team, at least in Ontario,

00:30:57.220 --> 00:30:59.099
that we use. We use a number of other teams in

00:30:59.099 --> 00:31:02.220
other places, but we try and keep it to as few

00:31:02.220 --> 00:31:04.819
people as possible. So the dogs, the dog handlers,

00:31:04.819 --> 00:31:07.900
perhaps an investigator or two, and that's it.

00:31:08.819 --> 00:31:11.390
Whereas if it's going to be a grid search. Obviously,

00:31:11.390 --> 00:31:14.230
it could be large. Nick has ran, I think, the

00:31:14.230 --> 00:31:17.250
largest we've had where we had multiple teams

00:31:17.250 --> 00:31:20.470
of 10 to 20 people each out there. It was quite

00:31:20.470 --> 00:31:23.910
an operation that we've had. One of my bigger

00:31:23.910 --> 00:31:29.349
regrets, but yes. One of the issues with a grid

00:31:29.349 --> 00:31:32.009
search is you'd be surprised how hard it is to

00:31:32.009 --> 00:31:35.460
walk in a straight line in the woods. at only

00:31:35.460 --> 00:31:38.180
a few feet apart or let's say up to six to eight

00:31:38.180 --> 00:31:39.920
feet apart, depending on what type of search

00:31:39.920 --> 00:31:43.200
that we're doing. You know, I've personally walked

00:31:43.200 --> 00:31:46.079
behind the line just trying to keep a group of

00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:49.799
10 or 12 people going straight and they don't.

00:31:50.099 --> 00:31:52.819
And we, you know, we end up leaving gaps and

00:31:52.819 --> 00:31:55.240
we have to. backtrack and then start over again

00:31:55.240 --> 00:31:59.279
to eliminate that area properly so you know ideally

00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:02.000
you'd rather have eight to ten people all of

00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:05.140
whom have done many searches are trained whether

00:32:05.140 --> 00:32:08.059
they're you know off -duty police officers which

00:32:08.059 --> 00:32:11.240
we get a lot of off -duty firefighters but people

00:32:11.240 --> 00:32:15.759
who can walk a line having a 50 person line is

00:32:15.759 --> 00:32:18.079
not useful because they're not going to walk

00:32:18.079 --> 00:32:19.759
in a straight line you're not going to eliminate

00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:22.539
the area you have you would rather do you have

00:32:22.539 --> 00:32:24.119
10 people that are really good at what they do

00:32:24.119 --> 00:32:26.599
and just go five times you know over that that

00:32:26.599 --> 00:32:28.960
same distance it'll probably take you less time

00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:33.200
actually 100 it does it 100 does been there done

00:32:33.200 --> 00:32:36.319
that yeah we had 200 people do a search for lois

00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:41.779
hannah and the worst feeling is is walking away

00:32:41.779 --> 00:32:44.140
from that search that took so long to plan and

00:32:44.140 --> 00:32:48.380
organize because 200 people showed up and Then

00:32:48.380 --> 00:32:51.240
walking away, not confident that it was properly

00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:54.140
cleared. So you have to go back anyway. And at

00:32:54.140 --> 00:32:56.259
least, you know, if you're going back with people

00:32:56.259 --> 00:32:59.920
that you've built your routine with around the

00:32:59.920 --> 00:33:03.680
searching, you trust that you really walk out

00:33:03.680 --> 00:33:05.400
of there with that level of trust that it's been

00:33:05.400 --> 00:33:08.339
cleared properly. I tell you, we went out to

00:33:08.339 --> 00:33:11.799
do a search in Brockville, Ontario. 30 people

00:33:11.799 --> 00:33:14.799
were supposed to show up. Three of us drove down

00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:19.250
from Old Town. And... Not one person showed up

00:33:19.250 --> 00:33:23.589
and it was so, it felt awful that no one from

00:33:23.589 --> 00:33:25.289
the community came and we just drove six hours.

00:33:25.589 --> 00:33:28.009
But I'll tell you, it was such a good blessing

00:33:28.009 --> 00:33:30.130
because the amount that us three were able to

00:33:30.130 --> 00:33:33.549
clear in two days was probably more than we would

00:33:33.549 --> 00:33:35.549
have been able to accomplish with these 30 people,

00:33:35.730 --> 00:33:38.049
27 of which have likely never searched before.

00:33:38.230 --> 00:33:45.440
So yeah, it completely benefits. In saying that,

00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:47.960
I'm going to devil's advocate myself. Jack and

00:33:47.960 --> 00:33:51.039
Lily Sullivan coming up. We can't just depend

00:33:51.039 --> 00:33:53.099
on the three of us going down to complete the

00:33:53.099 --> 00:33:55.559
areas we want. The difference with this one,

00:33:55.579 --> 00:34:00.299
though, I would never do a public search that's

00:34:00.299 --> 00:34:04.139
going to be a grid search or a line search. If

00:34:04.139 --> 00:34:06.759
I'm going to call on volunteers that are just

00:34:06.759 --> 00:34:10.619
walking in ditches off the road or walking alongside

00:34:10.619 --> 00:34:13.719
a creek or river, that's different because that's

00:34:13.719 --> 00:34:16.000
a lot more difficult to mess up and miss. If

00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:17.840
we're just wanting to catch up something that

00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:20.860
someone has fallen into the ditch, passed away,

00:34:20.980 --> 00:34:23.420
or someone has washed up along a water's edge,

00:34:24.119 --> 00:34:27.380
you can send really, you know, you can kind of

00:34:27.380 --> 00:34:30.219
take your pick as to who walks that. So other

00:34:30.219 --> 00:34:32.260
than that, yeah, the grid searching and the line

00:34:32.260 --> 00:34:35.769
searching does not. work from a clearing confidently

00:34:35.769 --> 00:34:39.110
perspective um as it does walking ditches or

00:34:39.110 --> 00:34:41.449
waterways you know a couple times we've put out

00:34:41.449 --> 00:34:43.869
um requests on different searches for the community

00:34:43.869 --> 00:34:46.730
to come and you know we've had to be clear like

00:34:46.730 --> 00:34:49.590
you must be physically able to walk through the

00:34:49.590 --> 00:34:52.769
woods and unfortunately people come that i'm

00:34:52.769 --> 00:34:54.829
just like you you just can't make it through

00:34:54.829 --> 00:34:57.190
the woods i know that i can see that from you

00:34:57.190 --> 00:34:59.989
we've had people come who i mean that they've

00:34:59.989 --> 00:35:01.750
got they're on crutches or they have walkers

00:35:01.750 --> 00:35:04.539
and i'm like what you can't you don't normally

00:35:04.539 --> 00:35:07.019
walk through the woods do you like that we've

00:35:07.019 --> 00:35:09.239
had a girl come in heels we've had a guy come

00:35:09.239 --> 00:35:12.780
without arms before like no both of his arms

00:35:12.780 --> 00:35:15.960
are gone and we're like yes you can like we're

00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:17.480
grateful you're here because you can walk through

00:35:17.480 --> 00:35:20.619
but if you go down like you you need to have

00:35:20.619 --> 00:35:22.400
something you've got to use your hands when you're

00:35:22.400 --> 00:35:26.400
searching we had a guy who had a triple bypass

00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:30.139
like a few months before and wanted to see if

00:35:30.139 --> 00:35:32.599
he could make it and i'm like well You're going

00:35:32.599 --> 00:35:36.340
to have to do that on your own time because we're

00:35:36.340 --> 00:35:37.940
going to be looking for you out there, right?

00:35:38.039 --> 00:35:41.119
So anyway, watching - And Jenna and I are over

00:35:41.119 --> 00:35:44.679
here sitting like, yeah, we've experienced this

00:35:44.679 --> 00:35:49.920
before. Especially the fact that no one can walk

00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:53.980
a straight line. Yes. It's shocking. It's true.

00:35:54.219 --> 00:35:56.440
I've said to people, I'm like, if you're walking

00:35:56.440 --> 00:35:59.820
on your search and you see yourself going past

00:35:59.820 --> 00:36:02.940
people, It means you did it wrong, right? Like

00:36:02.940 --> 00:36:05.679
just if everybody's walking in a straight line,

00:36:05.900 --> 00:36:08.800
nobody will pass each other, right? By definition,

00:36:08.840 --> 00:36:11.300
that's how it works. And yet they're doing a

00:36:11.300 --> 00:36:13.659
hard 90 degrees in front of other people. I'm

00:36:13.659 --> 00:36:15.760
like, no, you're like, you hate to kick people

00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:18.539
out. But sometimes you notice that your neighbor

00:36:18.539 --> 00:36:20.780
is no longer your neighbor. Now you've got an

00:36:20.780 --> 00:36:25.780
issue. Yes. And like Brett said, it works the

00:36:25.780 --> 00:36:28.900
best. Someone has to be designated as walking

00:36:28.900 --> 00:36:31.199
behind the line on every search. You have to.

00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:34.739
And you're not there to search. You're there

00:36:34.739 --> 00:36:38.880
to keep them in line. And overcorrect. It's okay

00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:42.139
to overcorrect and sound annoying. I tell people

00:36:42.139 --> 00:36:44.360
that every time. I'm going to be annoying. But

00:36:44.360 --> 00:36:46.139
we want to do this right. We don't want to have

00:36:46.139 --> 00:36:50.159
to come back. Have them behind and walk beside

00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:52.039
and behind and beside and behind and beside and

00:36:52.039 --> 00:36:57.760
behind. It is amazing. Yeah. So line searches

00:36:57.760 --> 00:36:59.800
are something we know well, and that is a skill

00:36:59.800 --> 00:37:03.820
that we hopefully acquire in our training. We

00:37:03.820 --> 00:37:09.000
teach them. We try. Well, we try to teach them.

00:37:10.119 --> 00:37:13.639
So, I mean, that is a skill that, I mean, ideally

00:37:13.639 --> 00:37:16.539
you could have 30 trained forensic anthropologists

00:37:16.539 --> 00:37:19.119
to come in for that, but it's probably not reasonable.

00:37:19.159 --> 00:37:22.460
So at what point would you? In an investigation,

00:37:22.659 --> 00:37:25.380
decide, OK, now is the time we need to pull in

00:37:25.380 --> 00:37:27.159
the big guns. We got to bring in someone like

00:37:27.159 --> 00:37:33.800
Ashley. Well, so I think there is the likelihood

00:37:33.800 --> 00:37:37.699
that about this shoe, because if we find a bone

00:37:37.699 --> 00:37:41.800
on a search, then OPPR and it's determined human

00:37:41.800 --> 00:37:43.739
OPPR or law enforcement are going to come in

00:37:43.739 --> 00:37:47.760
and take it over anyway. But with this shoe of

00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:53.110
possibly Lisa's. um i would likely come springtime

00:37:53.110 --> 00:37:55.510
want to organize something like that we have

00:37:55.510 --> 00:37:59.449
been through this bush okay we have not completed

00:37:59.449 --> 00:38:02.829
the whole thing it's been it's taken three years

00:38:02.829 --> 00:38:07.230
to get to this point where we are maybe a hundred

00:38:07.230 --> 00:38:09.690
feet into the bush maybe and that's because we've

00:38:09.690 --> 00:38:12.730
gone so painstakingly slow and raked every single

00:38:12.730 --> 00:38:15.190
thing in front of us as we go so it's been a

00:38:15.190 --> 00:38:18.230
multi -year clear but but now we found a shoe

00:38:19.430 --> 00:38:24.570
And it's, you know, we find it, we GPS it, and

00:38:24.570 --> 00:38:28.130
we contact law enforcement and say, hey, I want

00:38:28.130 --> 00:38:31.730
to back up. This place is the place that forensic

00:38:31.730 --> 00:38:34.630
anthropologist Lita Wadimanewik, I think I'm

00:38:34.630 --> 00:38:36.650
pronouncing her last name right, recommended

00:38:36.650 --> 00:38:40.849
that we clear next. And this is back in 2019.

00:38:41.739 --> 00:38:44.019
And she recommended this is the next place we

00:38:44.019 --> 00:38:46.380
need to clear based on where her car was found,

00:38:46.500 --> 00:38:48.519
based on where the hunters found this shallow

00:38:48.519 --> 00:38:51.960
grave a year after. And, you know, all the above.

00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:54.980
There's a bunch of stuff. So we began clearing

00:38:54.980 --> 00:38:57.179
it, of course. And it's taken so long. But anyhow,

00:38:57.340 --> 00:39:03.039
we find the shoe. And the first thing is contact

00:39:03.039 --> 00:39:05.500
law enforcement. I said, do you guys want it?

00:39:05.539 --> 00:39:07.760
It's just a shoe. Kind of their thing with Lisa

00:39:07.760 --> 00:39:09.760
Moss's case right now is call us when you find

00:39:09.760 --> 00:39:13.880
a skull like. or it's clearly human call us so

00:39:13.880 --> 00:39:18.699
we found a shoe it's a um i can't even tell what

00:39:18.699 --> 00:39:21.579
size is but it's very decayed it looks like it's

00:39:21.579 --> 00:39:24.679
been chewed on so the first thing we did is as

00:39:24.679 --> 00:39:26.599
soon as police said they don't want it we found

00:39:26.599 --> 00:39:29.400
a shoe museum in toronto and we communicated

00:39:29.400 --> 00:39:32.019
with them and they agreed to look at the shoe

00:39:32.019 --> 00:39:36.159
we hand delivered it and um you know they said

00:39:36.159 --> 00:39:41.050
it's a size six roughly women definitely women's

00:39:41.050 --> 00:39:43.409
and it's a Reebok and then they got back to us

00:39:43.409 --> 00:39:46.730
with the three types that it could be so now

00:39:46.730 --> 00:39:51.130
Lisa was a size six it's a white shoe it's a

00:39:51.130 --> 00:39:54.650
women's shoe it fits it was manufactured between

00:39:54.650 --> 00:39:59.429
1985 and 1988 she goes missing in 1988 so so

00:39:59.429 --> 00:40:01.090
many things are pointing to that it could be

00:40:01.090 --> 00:40:05.030
her shoe but we went back and we did a quick

00:40:05.030 --> 00:40:07.659
scouring around to see if we could find the other

00:40:07.659 --> 00:40:09.340
shoe that could give us more detail, anything.

00:40:09.900 --> 00:40:13.679
And we haven't been able to do so. So to answer

00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:17.840
to your question, that would be a prime scenario

00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:21.119
where I would want trained forensic anthropology

00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:24.340
team to come down and completely clear those

00:40:24.340 --> 00:40:28.159
woods, especially location around the shoe. Yeah.

00:40:29.059 --> 00:40:32.760
That, that, yeah. And it's hard because that's

00:40:32.760 --> 00:40:39.650
one of those. Really, you can't say it is. Can't

00:40:39.650 --> 00:40:44.409
say it isn't. Yeah, and, you know, I say, okay,

00:40:44.489 --> 00:40:47.210
well, what if it just falls out of somebody's

00:40:47.210 --> 00:40:49.730
backpack as they're back there hiking? It's not

00:40:49.730 --> 00:40:51.670
a hiking trail. It's the middle of the woods.

00:40:53.889 --> 00:40:58.769
I just, yeah, again, that's just it. You go into

00:40:58.769 --> 00:41:02.650
it wanting to debunk it, but we can't. No. Yeah.

00:41:03.309 --> 00:41:06.250
And on the topic of resiliency and needing resiliency

00:41:06.250 --> 00:41:10.690
for this job, I actually did work with Please

00:41:10.690 --> 00:41:13.650
Bring Me Home back in 2019, helping Nick look

00:41:13.650 --> 00:41:17.309
for Lisa Moss. We went through a big old crevasse

00:41:17.309 --> 00:41:19.829
and pulled out just tons and tons of garbage.

00:41:19.889 --> 00:41:23.510
And he is still, I can tell, still very passionate,

00:41:23.710 --> 00:41:26.710
still gung ho to figure this one out. I'm sure

00:41:26.710 --> 00:41:28.389
you have a ton of other cases that have crossed

00:41:28.389 --> 00:41:31.010
your desk that are shiny and new and distracting.

00:41:33.289 --> 00:41:34.929
you're dead focused on this. And that's really

00:41:34.929 --> 00:41:38.150
cool. Yeah, no, thank you for that. It's a, we

00:41:38.150 --> 00:41:40.550
all have our case that is going to stick with

00:41:40.550 --> 00:41:44.110
us, right? I know Brett has, if not one, two

00:41:44.110 --> 00:41:46.789
or three, and I have a few, Lisa Moss is certainly

00:41:46.789 --> 00:41:50.329
one that she's the first, you know, case that

00:41:50.329 --> 00:41:54.889
I learned the term cold case from reading her

00:41:54.889 --> 00:41:57.349
a little bit about her case. I never even heard

00:41:57.349 --> 00:42:00.690
it before 2016. And then, you know, it's, it

00:42:00.690 --> 00:42:03.400
is one of those. And yeah. you get these new

00:42:03.400 --> 00:42:05.039
ones that come across your desk and yes they

00:42:05.039 --> 00:42:07.099
do need to have a little bit of your focus because

00:42:07.099 --> 00:42:09.880
we also like to work on a preventative measure

00:42:09.880 --> 00:42:12.400
from time to time as long as it doesn't take

00:42:12.400 --> 00:42:15.219
away from the historical work that we do you

00:42:15.219 --> 00:42:18.119
know there's if this person is believed to have

00:42:18.119 --> 00:42:23.380
drowned on lake huron via the soggy river we

00:42:23.380 --> 00:42:25.639
know we only have a few years to lightly locate

00:42:25.639 --> 00:42:28.920
his remains on the shore until they get you know

00:42:28.920 --> 00:42:32.579
completely washed out so We don't want that to

00:42:32.579 --> 00:42:34.780
come across our desk in five years and they'd

00:42:34.780 --> 00:42:37.360
be like, ah, we really should have done something

00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:40.760
in years one and two. So there's a lot of cases

00:42:40.760 --> 00:42:43.659
like that to come up. And we do have ones as

00:42:43.659 --> 00:42:47.139
well that have unfortunately no evidence whatsoever.

00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:51.630
That person disappears. Nobody saw, nobody knows

00:42:51.630 --> 00:42:55.510
anything. And you talk to everyone. And of course,

00:42:55.530 --> 00:42:57.550
some of them might be, you know, 30, 40 years

00:42:57.550 --> 00:43:00.969
old. And so you re -interview everyone and there's

00:43:00.969 --> 00:43:03.130
just not a single piece of evidence anywhere.

00:43:03.349 --> 00:43:07.110
And it makes it very difficult without anything

00:43:07.110 --> 00:43:11.150
to jumpstart the case. Is it harder? I know we've

00:43:11.150 --> 00:43:14.210
talked a lot about missing persons and the concept

00:43:14.210 --> 00:43:18.329
of, you know, people who disappeared, people...

00:43:19.099 --> 00:43:22.860
who may have met foul play or some sort of misadventure?

00:43:23.019 --> 00:43:28.159
Does it make it harder for those who, I don't

00:43:28.159 --> 00:43:30.099
want to say disappeared themselves, but sort

00:43:30.099 --> 00:43:35.079
of run away, things like that? And if and when

00:43:35.079 --> 00:43:40.000
you do find them, is that even a little bit more

00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:43.500
on the difficult side in that, hey, we found

00:43:43.500 --> 00:43:46.739
this person. The family has asked us to find

00:43:46.739 --> 00:43:50.159
this person. Maybe they don't want a reunion

00:43:50.159 --> 00:43:52.519
with the family. That's right. That's a really

00:43:52.519 --> 00:43:55.440
good question. In fact, the case that I saw that

00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:59.239
the gentleman had disappeared for 14 years, he

00:43:59.239 --> 00:44:02.800
had no interest in his family. And so we kept

00:44:02.800 --> 00:44:06.929
his location. uh you know completely we didn't

00:44:06.929 --> 00:44:08.949
disclose that to the family at all i did let

00:44:08.949 --> 00:44:12.409
the family know that we had found him and um

00:44:12.409 --> 00:44:14.469
of course they wanted information all that and

00:44:14.469 --> 00:44:17.949
i said no you know he has no mental health issues

00:44:17.949 --> 00:44:20.750
he has no warrants on him nothing like that i

00:44:20.750 --> 00:44:23.829
verified through the police that it was him and

00:44:23.829 --> 00:44:27.530
so you know he has right to disappear if he wants

00:44:27.530 --> 00:44:30.929
to and so that's something where we uh we maintain

00:44:30.929 --> 00:44:35.150
you know the um the secrecy I did let the family

00:44:35.150 --> 00:44:37.530
know, though, that we had found him. They were

00:44:37.530 --> 00:44:40.130
thrilled. They were overjoyed just the fact that

00:44:40.130 --> 00:44:44.090
they knew he was safe and alive and well and

00:44:44.090 --> 00:44:48.269
all that. And that's something we have to watch

00:44:48.269 --> 00:44:50.230
with these cases, right? People do have a right

00:44:50.230 --> 00:44:52.849
to disappear if they want to, right? They've

00:44:52.849 --> 00:44:56.449
not done anything wrong. um and uh and we want

00:44:56.449 --> 00:44:59.530
to maintain their privacy while also bringing

00:44:59.530 --> 00:45:03.750
the case to a close because they they are you

00:45:03.750 --> 00:45:06.110
know missing persons uh wanted by the that are

00:45:06.110 --> 00:45:08.329
being looked for by the police we do want to

00:45:08.329 --> 00:45:10.829
bring these closure to these cases but we definitely

00:45:10.829 --> 00:45:13.829
maintain the um privacy of the people who disappeared

00:45:13.829 --> 00:45:17.170
in the cases that it has been a runaway Yeah,

00:45:17.190 --> 00:45:20.449
that has happened from time to time. With Please

00:45:20.449 --> 00:45:22.949
Bring Me Home, you know, Michael Samdas is a

00:45:22.949 --> 00:45:25.090
good example. And this is actually not a bad

00:45:25.090 --> 00:45:28.250
segue into if we want to talk about Onset for

00:45:28.250 --> 00:45:32.349
a moment. But, you know, Michael Samdas, he,

00:45:32.630 --> 00:45:38.710
and on this too, we really didn't know. Did he

00:45:38.710 --> 00:45:42.949
walk away and pass away? Did he run away? Could

00:45:42.949 --> 00:45:45.679
he have been met with foul play? as someone who

00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:48.019
works primarily in brain injury rehabilitation

00:45:48.019 --> 00:45:52.500
i did he got in an altercation outside of a bar

00:45:52.500 --> 00:45:55.719
and then it was like the day after that where

00:45:55.719 --> 00:45:58.940
he went missing and i just i always did always

00:45:58.940 --> 00:46:01.079
nagged and wondered if he did get a brain injury

00:46:01.079 --> 00:46:04.380
and i'll let brett talk a bit about the facial

00:46:04.380 --> 00:46:07.019
you know open source stuff because that's his

00:46:07.019 --> 00:46:09.079
that's his thing that's i know nothing about

00:46:09.079 --> 00:46:12.760
it but i can tell you that an investigation team

00:46:12.760 --> 00:46:17.309
member We just decided to run faces through this

00:46:17.309 --> 00:46:20.329
open source system and one kicked back and it

00:46:20.329 --> 00:46:23.949
was a mugshot out of Florida. Didn't match the

00:46:23.949 --> 00:46:27.250
name, but there was just some tiny details in

00:46:27.250 --> 00:46:28.809
that face that looked like it could have been

00:46:28.809 --> 00:46:31.989
him. And sure as shit, it was him. And this was

00:46:31.989 --> 00:46:33.949
what, two years down the line, three years maybe?

00:46:34.170 --> 00:46:36.750
Yeah. Oh, no, he disappeared. He disappeared

00:46:36.750 --> 00:46:40.679
in 2000 and was it 19? Yeah, like it was a few

00:46:40.679 --> 00:46:44.940
years down the line. Up to four years. He had

00:46:44.940 --> 00:46:49.440
no recollection of his life in Canada at all.

00:46:49.739 --> 00:46:53.880
And I think he sustained a brain injury from

00:46:53.880 --> 00:46:59.059
that altercation, but he took off and he made

00:46:59.059 --> 00:47:01.039
some very poor choices in the States, by the

00:47:01.039 --> 00:47:05.300
way. But he was in jail and we were able to confirm,

00:47:05.559 --> 00:47:09.559
connect to the Florida. corrections department

00:47:09.559 --> 00:47:12.420
with the Hamilton Police Service and they were

00:47:12.420 --> 00:47:14.179
able to compare the fingerprints and it was him.

00:47:15.179 --> 00:47:18.360
So that's one of our investigative tools is we

00:47:18.360 --> 00:47:20.960
make use of facial recognition software, which

00:47:20.960 --> 00:47:25.099
is very useful, particularly when, you know,

00:47:25.099 --> 00:47:27.539
there's a very solid chance that the missing

00:47:27.539 --> 00:47:29.800
person has run away, right? That is the number

00:47:29.800 --> 00:47:33.139
one reason people are classified as missing is

00:47:33.139 --> 00:47:37.360
that they ran away. And the difficulty with that

00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:39.079
is that you know when you interview a family

00:47:39.079 --> 00:47:44.079
if a person in your family ran away you were

00:47:44.079 --> 00:47:46.739
probably some sort of contributing factor to

00:47:46.739 --> 00:47:49.019
that now i don't mean directly i don't mean you

00:47:49.019 --> 00:47:50.780
threatened to kill someone in your family and

00:47:50.780 --> 00:47:53.159
they ran away i just mean maybe it's not a happy

00:47:53.159 --> 00:47:55.360
home right now there could just purely be a mental

00:47:55.360 --> 00:47:59.519
health issue of course but you know people don't

00:47:59.519 --> 00:48:02.099
want to open it they don't even want to open

00:48:02.099 --> 00:48:05.139
their mind to the possibility that that person

00:48:05.139 --> 00:48:09.340
ran away. And in fact, most of the people with

00:48:09.340 --> 00:48:12.000
the families that we deal with, when the person

00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:15.320
hasn't come back, it's because they were killed

00:48:15.320 --> 00:48:19.019
by a serial killer. And that's what the family

00:48:19.019 --> 00:48:23.340
believes. They unconsciously deflect generally

00:48:23.340 --> 00:48:25.940
anything that they could have contributed to

00:48:25.940 --> 00:48:28.840
that. And as I said, if a person has ran away,

00:48:29.059 --> 00:48:32.719
there's... There could be some contributing factors

00:48:32.719 --> 00:48:35.440
that have no relation to the family, but generally,

00:48:35.659 --> 00:48:38.699
you know, the family has contributed to that

00:48:38.699 --> 00:48:42.420
runaway. So facial recognition software is a

00:48:42.420 --> 00:48:45.980
fantastic tool. One that police are starting

00:48:45.980 --> 00:48:51.019
to have, starting to utilize, but it's in Canada,

00:48:51.019 --> 00:48:53.059
it's generally deemed as an invasion of privacy

00:48:53.059 --> 00:48:55.480
in a lot of different ways. So there's very,

00:48:55.599 --> 00:48:58.099
very regulated ways in which they could use that,

00:48:58.179 --> 00:49:02.480
but not so for us. So we find people regularly

00:49:02.480 --> 00:49:05.480
using facial recognition software. And this is

00:49:05.480 --> 00:49:07.900
all open source, by the way. It's not invading

00:49:07.900 --> 00:49:10.300
anyone's privacy. It's a picture up on the internet.

00:49:10.679 --> 00:49:13.219
Most of the subscription -based softwares do

00:49:13.219 --> 00:49:16.420
not search even the social media feeds of people.

00:49:16.519 --> 00:49:18.239
So if you have a Facebook feed, it's not even

00:49:18.239 --> 00:49:21.039
going through that feed per some agreement that

00:49:21.039 --> 00:49:25.320
the software company has with Facebook. So it's,

00:49:25.320 --> 00:49:28.139
you know, someone posted on a blog. And then,

00:49:28.139 --> 00:49:30.460
you know, it finds it. So really, it's an efficient

00:49:30.460 --> 00:49:35.179
way of locating images on the Internet. After

00:49:35.179 --> 00:49:37.900
we had found a few people, bits and pieces of

00:49:37.900 --> 00:49:40.900
evidence, I decided to run the entire RCMP's

00:49:40.900 --> 00:49:43.500
database of 900 and something faces of missing

00:49:43.500 --> 00:49:46.579
persons. And I found over 100 pieces of evidence

00:49:46.579 --> 00:49:50.679
that I submitted to police. Um, and, and these

00:49:50.679 --> 00:49:52.260
weren't just missing persons. They were want

00:49:52.260 --> 00:49:54.579
in some cases it was wanted person. So the bolo

00:49:54.579 --> 00:49:58.519
list, um, and such in Canada. Um, but you know,

00:49:58.539 --> 00:50:00.280
I found that none of those cases were actually

00:50:00.280 --> 00:50:02.619
closed despite, you know, quite a bit of evidence

00:50:02.619 --> 00:50:04.920
submitted. Not every picture of course would

00:50:04.920 --> 00:50:07.460
have been the person, but, um, in many cases,

00:50:07.460 --> 00:50:09.840
I think it was definitely them. So I formed a

00:50:09.840 --> 00:50:12.519
second group, uh, like a sister group to, um,

00:50:12.719 --> 00:50:15.079
to please bring me home called onset investigation,

00:50:15.139 --> 00:50:18.489
which is focused on wanted. persons so we've

00:50:18.489 --> 00:50:21.730
run the fbi's most wanted list we've run the

00:50:21.730 --> 00:50:25.230
bolo list in canada and going kind of department

00:50:25.230 --> 00:50:27.230
by department looked at their wanted persons

00:50:27.230 --> 00:50:29.849
and we've already located dozens and dozens of

00:50:29.849 --> 00:50:32.670
criminals all over the world and that could be

00:50:32.670 --> 00:50:35.710
for murder for sexual assault for parental abduction

00:50:35.710 --> 00:50:39.829
for just evading a warrant you know or breaking

00:50:39.829 --> 00:50:42.750
parole uh it could be for a lot of reasons but

00:50:42.750 --> 00:50:45.289
we're really proving that that facial recognition

00:50:45.289 --> 00:50:47.920
software is a really useful investigative tool.

00:50:48.059 --> 00:50:50.579
We make it standard practice within Please Bring

00:50:50.579 --> 00:50:53.500
Me Home. We run all of our cases, the hundred

00:50:53.500 --> 00:50:55.380
and something that we have up there, we run them

00:50:55.380 --> 00:50:58.340
on a monthly basis, just in case. And this is

00:50:58.340 --> 00:51:00.539
once, even when we're sure someone, you know,

00:51:00.539 --> 00:51:03.840
fell off the side of a canoe and drowned, we

00:51:03.840 --> 00:51:06.679
still run them, just in case that that person

00:51:06.679 --> 00:51:10.260
didn't swim to shore and, you know, go live another

00:51:10.260 --> 00:51:12.920
life somewhere. We do try and find them. I've

00:51:12.920 --> 00:51:15.219
even found people off of the Witness Protection

00:51:15.219 --> 00:51:20.329
Program. that I then had to not release for obvious

00:51:20.329 --> 00:51:24.849
reasons. So it's an investigative tool that we've

00:51:24.849 --> 00:51:27.329
added to our arsenal of techniques that we use,

00:51:27.409 --> 00:51:30.190
and it's become automatic procedure for us to

00:51:30.190 --> 00:51:34.809
run all of the faces of the missing persons on

00:51:34.809 --> 00:51:38.650
the database. Do you use a standard sort of like

00:51:38.650 --> 00:51:43.219
published protocol to... We don't really use

00:51:43.219 --> 00:51:47.039
the term match in forensics, but to include or

00:51:47.039 --> 00:51:50.340
exclude individuals? It's tough. There isn't,

00:51:50.340 --> 00:51:52.820
I would say, a specific protocol. But what we

00:51:52.820 --> 00:51:58.889
do is we run on multiple platforms. to see if

00:51:58.889 --> 00:52:01.510
the platforms agree. Obviously, if they have

00:52:01.510 --> 00:52:04.090
a distinguishing feature, they have a mole, they

00:52:04.090 --> 00:52:07.289
have an injury, they have something about them

00:52:07.289 --> 00:52:10.010
that is a tattoo, obviously, something that is

00:52:10.010 --> 00:52:13.369
completely unique to them. But I'll tell you,

00:52:13.389 --> 00:52:16.630
in utilizing the software, there are some astounding

00:52:16.630 --> 00:52:19.420
lookalikes. I remember... we were told as kids,

00:52:19.480 --> 00:52:21.340
everybody has a twin somewhere in the world.

00:52:21.400 --> 00:52:23.920
I actually starting to believe that because people

00:52:23.920 --> 00:52:28.239
that it must be the person and it's, it's eliminated

00:52:28.239 --> 00:52:31.460
is not the person, but you're like, how, how,

00:52:31.500 --> 00:52:33.260
and then we've actually found some matches, which

00:52:33.260 --> 00:52:34.980
we're not sure about, which turned out to be

00:52:34.980 --> 00:52:38.360
the person. So the software is by no means infallible

00:52:38.360 --> 00:52:41.739
in any way. It's getting better. Have you searched

00:52:41.739 --> 00:52:46.559
for your twin? haven't but i did look for uh

00:52:46.559 --> 00:52:48.519
different members of my family and i did find

00:52:48.519 --> 00:52:53.000
people who were shockingly fine by my mind yeah

00:52:53.000 --> 00:52:56.400
exactly so it it's fascinating stuff and it is

00:52:56.400 --> 00:52:59.380
a useful investigative technique for us uh particularly

00:52:59.380 --> 00:53:02.059
for we were as i said we run on all the cases

00:53:02.059 --> 00:53:04.699
but there a lot of our people have just simply

00:53:04.699 --> 00:53:11.420
run over yeah um to to sort of jaunt As we're

00:53:11.420 --> 00:53:13.300
coming to a close, John's a little bit to the

00:53:13.300 --> 00:53:16.079
right, and then I have one last question after

00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:20.159
that. Right before we started recording, there

00:53:20.159 --> 00:53:24.019
was a conversation we were having about press

00:53:24.019 --> 00:53:27.679
coverage and social media coverage. And I was

00:53:27.679 --> 00:53:31.099
wondering, do you notice, particularly in Canada,

00:53:31.179 --> 00:53:33.019
I know here in the United States, one of the

00:53:33.019 --> 00:53:36.840
things that I find... absolutely infuriating

00:53:36.840 --> 00:53:39.280
is when you have a missing persons when you have

00:53:39.280 --> 00:53:45.099
a a kidnapped persons a common trait that we

00:53:45.099 --> 00:53:48.719
see within the press within social media is if

00:53:48.719 --> 00:53:54.760
they are a young blonde female it pops up everywhere

00:53:54.760 --> 00:53:58.960
it's the thing that absolutely consumes the news

00:53:58.960 --> 00:54:04.119
cycle But everybody else rapidly gets pushed

00:54:04.119 --> 00:54:07.900
to the bottom. And I'm wondering with Please

00:54:07.900 --> 00:54:10.280
Bring Me Home and particularly in Canada, do

00:54:10.280 --> 00:54:13.079
you notice something similar? And I'm thinking

00:54:13.079 --> 00:54:16.119
specifically with missing and murdered Indigenous

00:54:16.119 --> 00:54:19.920
girls now that you work all across Canada and

00:54:19.920 --> 00:54:25.460
you have teams in BC and in Alberta and in the

00:54:25.460 --> 00:54:32.400
Plains area. Trying to think of the word there.

00:54:32.460 --> 00:54:42.260
Fly over Canada. We do see it. I know that we

00:54:42.260 --> 00:54:45.000
at Please Bring Me Home don't do that. We make

00:54:45.000 --> 00:54:49.800
sure we give everyone the same attention. And

00:54:49.800 --> 00:54:53.500
we're mindful of that. We've done a lot of stuff

00:54:53.500 --> 00:54:56.400
on Lisa Moss. And if we're approached on doing

00:54:56.400 --> 00:54:58.420
like a documentary or a special on Lisa Moss,

00:54:58.539 --> 00:55:01.539
we'll typically try and promote another case

00:55:01.539 --> 00:55:04.360
that hasn't gotten the same attention. And that's

00:55:04.360 --> 00:55:07.679
important. Everyone deserves the exact same amount

00:55:07.679 --> 00:55:09.900
of attention. I think we saw it with Samuel Byrd

00:55:09.900 --> 00:55:14.619
recently. I think it was Saskatchewan, if I'm

00:55:14.619 --> 00:55:19.119
remembering right. he was evidently found um

00:55:19.119 --> 00:55:21.079
and it was believed he was murdered and i'll

00:55:21.079 --> 00:55:26.340
tell you that family is an inspiration in that

00:55:26.340 --> 00:55:30.039
regard because this was not a young white female

00:55:30.039 --> 00:55:36.539
this was a brown um uh you know native uh indigenous

00:55:36.539 --> 00:55:39.920
person to saskatchewan and but you could just

00:55:39.920 --> 00:55:46.329
see that the the country uh surrounded this family

00:55:46.329 --> 00:55:48.050
with so much love and stuff and it was great

00:55:48.050 --> 00:55:50.909
and I gotta say though that was like the first

00:55:50.909 --> 00:55:54.789
time that I saw something like that in a long

00:55:54.789 --> 00:55:57.309
time because before that it was Gabby Petito

00:55:57.309 --> 00:56:01.610
and I mean we all know who Gabby Petito is because

00:56:01.610 --> 00:56:04.949
it took the media by storm but around that same

00:56:04.949 --> 00:56:08.349
time maybe a few months prior there was a there

00:56:08.349 --> 00:56:10.789
was a younger native lady that went missing and

00:56:10.789 --> 00:56:14.119
I had never heard of her and it's like how is

00:56:14.119 --> 00:56:17.039
that possible why is this it's a problem and

00:56:17.039 --> 00:56:19.579
a lot of it is what people it's just the way

00:56:19.579 --> 00:56:22.280
i think society is unfortunately is that they're

00:56:22.280 --> 00:56:24.920
going to click on something that's been already

00:56:24.920 --> 00:56:26.920
viewed a million times versus something that's

00:56:26.920 --> 00:56:29.409
only been viewed 10. And, you know, thankfully,

00:56:29.489 --> 00:56:32.789
we have on the Facebook site, 35 ,000 people

00:56:32.789 --> 00:56:34.889
followers on the Please Bring Me Home site who

00:56:34.889 --> 00:56:37.750
are fantastic about sharing and posting things

00:56:37.750 --> 00:56:40.489
and talking about it, which is huge. That allows

00:56:40.489 --> 00:56:43.329
us to give everybody all of our cases kind of

00:56:43.329 --> 00:56:46.650
equal airtime, if you will. We typically post

00:56:46.650 --> 00:56:48.570
on the anniversary of the person's disappearance

00:56:48.570 --> 00:56:50.969
or their birthday or something like that. So

00:56:50.969 --> 00:56:53.570
it's a regular cycle where all of our cases are

00:56:53.570 --> 00:56:57.269
going out there. But yes, to your question, there's

00:56:57.269 --> 00:57:01.050
definitely... in media attention. Now, you know,

00:57:01.050 --> 00:57:02.730
of course, there's a chicken and egg thing there.

00:57:02.809 --> 00:57:05.409
Is that the fault of the media for putting things

00:57:05.409 --> 00:57:07.710
forward or the fault of society for latching

00:57:07.710 --> 00:57:09.849
onto certain things? You know, what's coming

00:57:09.849 --> 00:57:13.289
before the other and such? So there's definitely,

00:57:13.369 --> 00:57:15.889
as Nick said, there are cases that just get so

00:57:15.889 --> 00:57:18.269
much attention all the time that we get called

00:57:18.269 --> 00:57:20.789
to comment on, that we're filmed on, that we're

00:57:20.789 --> 00:57:23.269
in documentaries on, that happens all the time.

00:57:23.349 --> 00:57:26.030
And then there are other cases which, you know,

00:57:26.030 --> 00:57:28.440
fall by the wayside. nobody pays attention to

00:57:28.440 --> 00:57:31.579
them and it's really unfortunate we really latch

00:57:31.579 --> 00:57:33.440
on to those cases and try and put them in the

00:57:33.440 --> 00:57:36.800
public's eye as much as possible but it is um

00:57:36.800 --> 00:57:39.780
definitely a problem uh i would i would imagine

00:57:39.780 --> 00:57:42.179
everywhere you know we're speaking from the canadian

00:57:42.179 --> 00:57:44.679
perspective but i would think it's uh it's an

00:57:44.679 --> 00:57:47.420
issue everywhere and ideally these cases can

00:57:47.420 --> 00:57:49.739
be brought to light for everybody to comment

00:57:49.739 --> 00:57:53.539
on and for everyone to remember uh you know not

00:57:53.539 --> 00:57:55.980
just The memory of the family for the family's

00:57:55.980 --> 00:57:58.900
sake to recognize that this trauma that people

00:57:58.900 --> 00:58:00.940
have been through is all these families have

00:58:00.940 --> 00:58:03.019
been through this trauma, but also because they

00:58:03.019 --> 00:58:04.619
might remember something about the case. They

00:58:04.619 --> 00:58:06.300
might have talked to somebody. They might have

00:58:06.300 --> 00:58:09.619
heard something. And as Nick and I always say,

00:58:09.719 --> 00:58:12.719
you know, no tip is silly. We want every tip

00:58:12.719 --> 00:58:16.380
to roll in. And again, we do get some ones that

00:58:16.380 --> 00:58:18.940
are of less evidentiary value than others, of

00:58:18.940 --> 00:58:21.840
course, but we want people to feel comfortable

00:58:21.840 --> 00:58:26.039
to call us or to email or contact us anonymously,

00:58:26.079 --> 00:58:29.559
which they can do at Please Bring Me Home. And

00:58:29.559 --> 00:58:33.019
yeah, so it's a problem and we hope it'll course

00:58:33.019 --> 00:58:37.199
correct over time. Sounds good. And one last

00:58:37.199 --> 00:58:45.239
question. Are there... sister organizations that

00:58:45.239 --> 00:58:48.300
you know of either in the United States or the

00:58:48.300 --> 00:58:52.000
United Kingdom or in Europe, Australia, globally,

00:58:52.119 --> 00:58:56.300
anywhere. And are you in contact with them? Do

00:58:56.300 --> 00:59:01.860
you sort of work with each other to better what

00:59:01.860 --> 00:59:05.880
you all do in your respective areas? Or is Please

00:59:05.880 --> 00:59:09.219
Bring Me Home sort of an aberration, just this

00:59:09.219 --> 00:59:15.039
one -off thing? i let me tell you so brett knows

00:59:15.039 --> 00:59:18.239
exactly where i'm going with this because i would

00:59:18.239 --> 00:59:23.820
love nothing more than the kumbaya all these

00:59:23.820 --> 00:59:26.239
organizations that have the resiliency and the

00:59:26.239 --> 00:59:28.219
passion to find missing people to work together

00:59:28.219 --> 00:59:33.099
and and i went into that so naively because i'm

00:59:33.099 --> 00:59:34.440
like of course people are going to want to work

00:59:34.440 --> 00:59:40.670
together but i i have been like gobsmacked over

00:59:40.670 --> 00:59:45.070
the amount of issues that we've had trying to

00:59:45.070 --> 00:59:49.289
partner with other organizations like us. So

00:59:49.289 --> 00:59:53.090
we've just become, we are the only one of its

00:59:53.090 --> 00:59:56.190
kind in Canada. We're the only organization that

00:59:56.190 --> 01:00:00.409
takes on cases asked by family and, you know,

01:00:00.429 --> 01:00:04.130
organizes investigations of it and then does

01:00:04.130 --> 01:00:06.960
searches on it. um and then does media exposure

01:00:06.960 --> 01:00:08.960
on it there's no other group out there in canada

01:00:08.960 --> 01:00:11.280
that does that and is a registered charity a

01:00:11.280 --> 01:00:12.980
registered charity i should say that law enforcement

01:00:12.980 --> 01:00:15.900
by the way obviously does that but we're the

01:00:15.900 --> 01:00:18.699
only other we're the only other um organization

01:00:18.699 --> 01:00:24.619
that we're not bound by any like um uh well boundaries

01:00:24.619 --> 01:00:27.659
like we can there's no red tape we can knock

01:00:27.659 --> 01:00:30.519
on someone's door we can ask permission to do

01:00:30.519 --> 01:00:33.159
a search we don't need a thing in writing it's

01:00:33.159 --> 01:00:35.340
just do we have the cadaver dog here can we just

01:00:35.340 --> 01:00:37.559
go into this we have the gpr machine here can

01:00:37.559 --> 01:00:39.340
we go scan your backyard and just get out of

01:00:39.340 --> 01:00:42.280
your hair we don't have all the stuff to go through

01:00:42.280 --> 01:00:46.559
but you know they're i'm trying to think if if

01:00:46.559 --> 01:00:49.380
there's other organizations i mean i'm sure there

01:00:49.380 --> 01:00:52.710
is um I think there's other ones that do aspects

01:00:52.710 --> 01:00:56.369
of what we do. They'll do an investigation or

01:00:56.369 --> 01:01:01.449
they will be like an outdoor search group that

01:01:01.449 --> 01:01:04.329
works with police, something like that. But in

01:01:04.329 --> 01:01:06.690
terms of a full service agency, I don't believe

01:01:06.690 --> 01:01:09.590
there is anything like this, definitely not in

01:01:09.590 --> 01:01:13.469
Canada, that works with this. We work with some

01:01:13.469 --> 01:01:15.289
really incredible, as we talked about before,

01:01:15.389 --> 01:01:17.469
consultants and partners, right? We work with

01:01:17.469 --> 01:01:20.530
Highlands Tracking, which is... led by a master

01:01:20.530 --> 01:01:23.389
searcher from uh the police who does a brilliant

01:01:23.389 --> 01:01:25.769
job in outdoor search we work with black tracks

01:01:25.769 --> 01:01:29.090
canine in ontario as part of our cadaver dog

01:01:29.090 --> 01:01:32.150
team uh with karen somerville and her team at

01:01:32.150 --> 01:01:35.230
west and several other different um search and

01:01:35.230 --> 01:01:38.230
rescue teams cadaver dog teams those types of

01:01:38.230 --> 01:01:41.570
things and it's been incredibly valuable we work

01:01:41.570 --> 01:01:44.570
with a gpr group steve watson who's been brilliant

01:01:45.099 --> 01:01:48.139
working with us um so obviously we work with

01:01:48.139 --> 01:01:51.360
you ashley you know and so all of these brilliant

01:01:51.360 --> 01:01:53.539
consultants that we've had each experts in their

01:01:53.539 --> 01:01:56.619
own fields we kind of work with everyone together

01:01:56.619 --> 01:01:59.000
and pool everyone's resources to get the best

01:01:59.000 --> 01:02:02.119
type of outcome but in terms of the groups out

01:02:02.119 --> 01:02:04.079
there that do what we do i don't believe there's

01:02:04.079 --> 01:02:06.760
a full service one in canada yeah and i mean

01:02:06.760 --> 01:02:11.949
in speaking of search groups oh sarva um was

01:02:11.949 --> 01:02:14.210
i don't know if i started still around i know

01:02:14.210 --> 01:02:17.210
there is of sarda now which is ontario volunteer

01:02:17.210 --> 01:02:21.489
association dog like it's about dogs and early

01:02:21.489 --> 01:02:24.590
on we had osarva canine members come out to do

01:02:24.590 --> 01:02:27.309
searches for lisa moss and it was fine didn't

01:02:27.309 --> 01:02:28.650
need you know they didn't need to jump through

01:02:28.650 --> 01:02:32.309
hoops they just came and then you know they said

01:02:32.309 --> 01:02:34.050
oh we can only come out when police ask us to

01:02:34.539 --> 01:02:37.440
And that's very similar with a lot of search

01:02:37.440 --> 01:02:40.260
and rescue groups. They have to be. And even

01:02:40.260 --> 01:02:42.239
if we go to police and say, hey, can you please

01:02:42.239 --> 01:02:45.679
ask this group, A, can you just release them

01:02:45.679 --> 01:02:49.039
to us for this day to let us, you know, use them

01:02:49.039 --> 01:02:51.519
for research? They're trained. Or B, could you

01:02:51.519 --> 01:02:53.539
just ask them to do it? And their response is,

01:02:53.619 --> 01:02:55.940
no, we can't ask them now because you asked us

01:02:55.940 --> 01:02:59.059
to ask them. And I'm like, but if it's a podcast

01:02:59.059 --> 01:03:03.320
or something like we've heard. canine searches

01:03:03.320 --> 01:03:06.539
from osarva or absarda happening through podcasts

01:03:06.539 --> 01:03:08.900
and it's not please ask for them so it's like

01:03:08.900 --> 01:03:12.219
the the rules aren't consistent so that's why

01:03:12.219 --> 01:03:15.980
we end up just creating our own like we found

01:03:15.980 --> 01:03:18.840
black tracks we found friends of anthropologists

01:03:18.840 --> 01:03:21.679
to take to look at bones all i need to do then

01:03:21.679 --> 01:03:25.000
on my end is to get people who can walk through

01:03:25.000 --> 01:03:29.130
the woods for hours at a time and be intelligent

01:03:29.130 --> 01:03:31.849
enough to know I should take a picture of this

01:03:31.849 --> 01:03:34.550
and send it. I need to mark this. I know the

01:03:34.550 --> 01:03:36.469
task. I need to do that. And as long as those

01:03:36.469 --> 01:03:38.909
things can happen, then we use the consultants

01:03:38.909 --> 01:03:43.690
for the other stuff. And lastly, for anybody

01:03:43.690 --> 01:03:48.130
that needs to send in a tip that needs to, they

01:03:48.130 --> 01:03:51.869
want to know more about your organization. What

01:03:51.869 --> 01:03:54.309
is the website for them to go to? What is the

01:03:54.309 --> 01:03:56.639
Facebook and the website for them to go to? And

01:03:56.639 --> 01:03:59.900
are you actively taking volunteers? Yes, all

01:03:59.900 --> 01:04:02.119
the time. All the time. Like, don't be afraid

01:04:02.119 --> 01:04:05.599
to join. So the best place, your one -stop shop,

01:04:05.659 --> 01:04:08.440
is just to go to pleasebringmehome .com. You're

01:04:08.440 --> 01:04:10.420
going to see a recruitment section if you want

01:04:10.420 --> 01:04:12.340
to apply. You're going to see a tip section to

01:04:12.340 --> 01:04:14.579
send anonymous tips. You're going to see an intake

01:04:14.579 --> 01:04:16.500
section if one of your family members are missing.

01:04:16.699 --> 01:04:18.880
You can also find us on Facebook under Please

01:04:18.880 --> 01:04:23.239
Bring Me Home, Instagram, and X. Our anonymous

01:04:23.239 --> 01:04:28.099
tip line, 226 -702 -2728. You can email us at

01:04:28.099 --> 01:04:30.980
tips at pleasebringmehome .com, recruitment at

01:04:30.980 --> 01:04:33.739
pleasebringmehome .com, intake at pleasebringmehome

01:04:33.739 --> 01:04:36.710
.com. But if you want to remain anonymous, Your

01:04:36.710 --> 01:04:39.469
tip line, that tip line number I said, or going

01:04:39.469 --> 01:04:41.630
on our website and clicking submit tip are the

01:04:41.630 --> 01:04:45.449
best ways to ensure your anonymous wishes are

01:04:45.449 --> 01:04:49.769
honored. All right. Well, with that, I want to

01:04:49.769 --> 01:04:53.590
thank both Nick and Brett for joining us this

01:04:53.590 --> 01:04:56.989
wonderful evening. It's been a real pleasure

01:04:56.989 --> 01:05:00.789
on my end to both have you here on the Bone Club

01:05:00.789 --> 01:05:03.329
and working with you both with Please Bring Me

01:05:03.329 --> 01:05:07.900
Home. And Jenna, having you finally back with

01:05:07.900 --> 01:05:10.840
us as well. Yeah, glad to be here. And thank

01:05:10.840 --> 01:05:12.780
you so much for the work that you do. Just a

01:05:12.780 --> 01:05:14.760
blanket statement for humanity and for Canada.

01:05:15.960 --> 01:05:18.780
Like, thank you. That's really important. And

01:05:18.780 --> 01:05:21.800
it's amazing that you guys care and you put in

01:05:21.800 --> 01:05:24.860
so much effort to find these people because they're

01:05:24.860 --> 01:05:27.860
loved by someone, right? Thank you guys very

01:05:27.860 --> 01:05:29.679
much. And thank you guys for what you do, you

01:05:29.679 --> 01:05:34.940
know, accepting the call from us to... uh help

01:05:34.940 --> 01:05:36.800
us conclude some of these areas and clear these

01:05:36.800 --> 01:05:38.800
searches we truly couldn't do without you guys

01:05:38.800 --> 01:05:40.760
either so thank you for having us and thanks

01:05:40.760 --> 01:05:46.980
for what you guys do all right well to our get

01:05:46.980 --> 01:05:49.719
to our audience thank you all as well for joining

01:05:49.719 --> 01:05:53.579
us and uh we will let you know what we're going

01:05:53.579 --> 01:05:57.119
to be doing in december as december gets rolling

01:05:57.119 --> 01:06:01.340
around so thanks everyone and have a wonderful

01:06:01.340 --> 01:06:05.320
evening Hello friends, we here at the Bone Club

01:06:05.320 --> 01:06:07.519
understand how difficult it is for students to

01:06:07.519 --> 01:06:09.219
break into the field of forensic anthropology.

01:06:10.039 --> 01:06:13.340
To help with that cause, we have decided to monetize

01:06:13.340 --> 01:06:15.960
in a way by setting up an account with Patreon.

01:06:16.800 --> 01:06:19.300
All proceeds will be donated to the anthropology

01:06:19.300 --> 01:06:21.920
section of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences

01:06:21.920 --> 01:06:25.119
to help alleviate the cost of attending an annual

01:06:25.119 --> 01:06:29.760
scientific conference for students. If you can,

01:06:29.980 --> 01:06:32.920
we have set up four membership tiers with patreon

01:06:32.920 --> 01:06:37.739
.com slash the bone club that range from $3 a

01:06:37.739 --> 01:06:41.800
month to our patrons of the bones at $15 a month.

01:06:42.280 --> 01:06:45.820
We hope some of you can join us in this worthy

01:06:45.820 --> 01:06:48.539
endeavor of breaking down the barrier of cost

01:06:48.539 --> 01:06:51.239
that keeps many students away from these important

01:06:51.239 --> 01:06:55.320
conferences. So if you can, please join us at

01:06:55.320 --> 01:07:01.360
patreon .com. Thank you, and may your skeletons

01:07:01.360 --> 01:07:02.800
always be complete.