WEBVTT

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down to my bones and welcome back to the Bone

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Club. It's me, Ashley, here with you, with Stephanie

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and our really good friend of ours, Dr. Sam Blatt.

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And unfortunately, Jenna is away from us. She

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is celebrating Canadian Thanksgiving. So happy

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Thanksgiving to all you Canucks out there. I

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wish I was able to celebrate it with you this

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year. It's my second one I'm missing. It's always

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a fantastic time. So we have a very interesting

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topic for you, I think, this month. It's on really

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the relationship of trans and gender diverse

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individuals with forensic anthropology. And it's

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one of those topics that got me as an individual

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interested in the field, got me sort of just

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saying, I want to be. a forensic anthropologist

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because i always wondered how would i be identified

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if i was to be if i was dead how would i be identified

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through my skeleton and luckily for us today

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we have dr blatt with us who has published numerous

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times and presented numerous times on this topic

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and has has been one of those authors that has

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been really pushing for change in the field in

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how forensic anthropology addresses transgendered

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individuals and gender diverse individuals. So

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Dr. Blatt, welcome. Welcome, Sam. How are you

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doing this evening? Thank you. I'm doing really,

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I'm doing well today. I also wish I was celebrating

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Canadian Thanksgiving. I forgot about it. Now,

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real question. Does Canadian Thanksgiving also

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include turkey, ham, stuffing, all the things

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that I like about actual Thanksgiving? Not actual

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Thanksgiving. That's not what I want to talk

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about. But the Thanksgiving that I know. Oh,

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yes. Canadian Thanksgiving has all the Thanksgiving

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trimmings that American Thanksgiving has, with

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the exception of the Macy's Thanksgiving Day

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Pareto. I mean, that's valid. That's a lot of

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plastic in the air, so it's okay. yeah that's

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fine so well I guess to start off with I know

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we usually the first thing that we usually do

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for you know every episode and so some of our

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listeners who have been with us throughout our

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little uh I want to say tenure but it's not uh

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know that we try to start out with asking what

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brought you into the field of forensic anthropology

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you know, was it you watched Bones as a child

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and things like that? Or like, what really brought

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you to love the field? And then what brought

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you into liking the topic that we're talking

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about today? So I actually have seen like maybe

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one Bones episode. So I'm like one of those weird

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ones. But I would say initially bioarchaeology.

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So I see myself as doing both bioarchaeology

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and forensic anthropology. And so. classes in

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bioarchaeology and then being in in weird states

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like Idaho that initially when I came to Idaho

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there were there wasn't really anybody here doing

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forensics and so it was like it was it was a

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need and I've always I think my interest in this

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topic stems from from bioarchaeology where, you

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know, we look at gender. Gender is written about

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a lot in bioarchaeology and there's a lot of

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theories behind it and it has some history to

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it. But to be quite honest about it for forensic

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anthropology, it wasn't until maybe like 2018

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or 2019 where I had a student that asked me,

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that had the same question that you just brought

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up, Ashley, like, how would I be identified?

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And they wanted to know this in forensic sense.

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And of course, I could say, oh, in bioarchaeology,

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we would do this and design a project like this.

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And you would have all this, you know, this archaeological

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information that we would be integrating. And

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in forensics, I was like, I don't know. And so

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it was really like one of the first times I thought

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about it. And then I had, I'm friends with founders

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of the Trans Do Task Force and who are transgender.

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And that was their main question as well. And

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there was not an answer or an infrastructure.

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And so it became personally interesting and also

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just like, why don't we, why isn't. Why is nobody

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looking at this? This is a big hole. And because

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of my background in bioarchaeology, I feel like

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I was more easily able to think about gender

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in ways that maybe some forensic anthropologists

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don't. Because if you're strictly trained as

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a forensic anthropologist, like gender and other...

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biocultural aspects of anthropology don't come

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into play as often as they do in bioarchaeology.

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And so I think that that's helped me a lot in

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forensics, maybe to a detriment, some might say,

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but the biocultural interest that I have that

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extends beyond just the skeleton and stats is

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really... I think made it easier for me to be

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open and try to be a listener and open to having

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other people try to understand why gender is

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important just in anthropology and absolutely

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is in forensics. But it's a different world to

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me. Seeing this in forensic world is a very different

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world. But yeah, it started, honestly, not too

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long ago. And then we kind of, a group of people

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I regularly uh right with kind of we ran with

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this and there was other folks doing it you know

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looking at this at the same time and um and so

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it was really exciting to see where this could

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go and we held like a workshop um we had like

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400 people this was a webinar in what was it

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like 2021 it seems so long ago now um and that

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kicked it off um So, yeah, that it's a long story.

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I've been around for a while, but like the bioarch

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and forensics hasn't like integrated itself so

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well until the last few years for me with gender.

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And I think that's the thing that I love most

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about forensics to me now is that I can bring

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in I feel more comfortable bringing in this bioarch

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anthropology side and that it is important to

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all the students out there like your your classes

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and cultural anthropology are important. to being

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a biological anthropologist. No, totally agree.

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I mean, that's definitely one thing. At work,

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we say a lot, and it's probably not enough, if

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we're honest, is you're anthropologist first.

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Like, yes, you're doing forensics. Yes, you're

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doing forensic techniques. Yes, you're trying

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to answer a legal question. But you're an anthropologist

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first, and you can't, don't forget that, because

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then you're going to skew. To a point where you're

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not actually doing anthropology anymore and you're

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just doing bad science. There was a line that

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we put into a paper in 2024. We need to bring

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anthropology back into forensic anthropology.

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And that's part of the reason for it. But I'm

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interested because I think there's a lot of different.

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ways to define these and i know it's the political

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gotcha question that's out there every time you

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see anything on social media anything you see

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on video or tv but how would you define sex and

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gender and i I am not, I definitely never considered

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myself like an expert in gender. I've learned

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a lot from a lot of people in the last few years.

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And the biggest thing I've learned is that people

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still conflate these two terms. And I never thought

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about how badly they do that. Sex, not an easy

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thing to define. It's, to me, not a binary where

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we have two choices and for a lot of reasons

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biologically there are a lot of reasons why you

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can go chromosomally you can go phenotype and

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like you know secondary sexual characteristics

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but there's not one way of defining it and I

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think that's been some of the problem and debate

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has been caused by that there really is not one

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definition and even i mean even amongst the papers

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that i've written and people that i write with

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we don't all agree and we don't all um we our

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ideas change about which terms we should use

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depending on we talk about a lot like and they

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change And they have in our field too. And so

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it's important to realize that that's normal,

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by the way, like that's normal in every field,

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that every field changes their terms. It is,

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there's some, there's usually some politics behind

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it and things like that. And so it's really good

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to know like the history of that. But the main,

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the easiest difference that people seem to, you

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know, adjust best to is that there's the biological

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differences which number like i said this can

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be chromosomally this can be the phenotypic traits

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that you see like it can be the skeletal traits

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that you use in sex as some skeletal sex estimation

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um versus gender which is you know identity and

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fluid and changing um it's identity it's your

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own identity it's an identity that others perceive

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upon you about what your roles are depending

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on masculinity and femininity and what you should

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be doing and your behavior what you should be

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wearing and that's cultural and that is and again

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go back to what you are as a base anthropologist

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taking cultural anthropology like we learn that

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you know there are cultures that have like their

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standard of five genders and that they change

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through through an individual's life even and

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this is what we learn as an anthropologist and

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so um you can't just we don't we shouldn't just

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forget uh these things um but that that is true

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of all culture we we don't think about our own

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culture very often um we um outside of male and

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female binaries for sex or or But they're defined

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also by our culture, which has also changed through

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time. And so even when we're looking at like

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individuals in Western culture and trying to

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not ascribe gender, but understand somebody's

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identity, gender identity, you have to understand

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the time period, which we're talking about as

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well. And so it's not as easy as... stats which

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we all think are very hard by the way i think

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are very hard but this is harder um understanding

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sex and gender is harder than you know statistics

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much harder uh and that's probably why there's

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such a big argument about it no and it's not

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something that can be settled by a single tweet

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no no or anything like that no that's also kind

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of going back to how you're saying like yes stats

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are hard and I chose a degree that didn't have

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to do math for a reason and you know whatever

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but like the like numbers tend to be binary and

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simple but then they also when used to explain

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culture miss so much and so I think that's like

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one thing that I always a lot of times when I

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read reports or like see papers that like are

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really really stats heavy which is nice because

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like it's like okay you grounded in some numbers

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and whatever but what you're trying the answer

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like the question you're trying to answer isn't

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static like that so the numbers while helpful

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aren't the whole picture and i think that gets

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lost a lot in forensic anthropology for sure

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and people also have the it's easier to say oh

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biology is more is this objective thing and so

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we should apply stats to it and and then in that

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culture this is why we have what we say hard

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science and softer like those terms are just

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bad terms they're erroneous science um but like

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how how you say culture you know if somebody

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says studying the humanities and cultures it's

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considered a different type of study than biology

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um and that's that's incorrect also Um, and there

00:14:56.519 --> 00:14:59.259
aren't just, there's not just a yes and a no

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answer to anything in, in the biological natural

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world. That's just not, that's, there's lots

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of evidence against that. Um, uh, there's a great

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book that just came out this year, obviously

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in Fuentes' book, the, um, Sex is a Spectrum,

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um, where he, he even talks about the ideology

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basis of, of the binary idea of male, female

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versus a spectrum of sex. And it, you know, it,

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there is an ideology behind it, which means that

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it's, it's not as simple as, as numbers. And

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that if you're going to define even biologically,

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like, this is what sex is, like, maybe you should

00:15:43.860 --> 00:15:45.639
be more specific and say, well, I'm talking about

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chromosomes right now, which is not remotely

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binary. uh for sex not like we teach this in

00:15:53.090 --> 00:15:55.350
our introduction and you know biological anthropology

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class like i do um because it's fascinating and

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it's and we're talking you know as anthropologists

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again we're talking about diversity of humans

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and and evolution biologically and culturally

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and just looking at uh the diversity of chromosomes

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like everybody should be like fascinated i would

00:16:13.649 --> 00:16:17.039
think you'd be fascinated by that not not just

00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:19.820
wanting something to be more simplistic and that's

00:16:19.820 --> 00:16:23.740
just not how the natural world works and so unfortunately

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that the answer for that you know defining biological

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sex or or um we keep going back to maybe calling

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it for for forensic osteological sex or skeletal

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sex we haven't really decided there's still that

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debate um it's just changing uh there isn't one

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And there hasn't been in forensics. And that's

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one of the biggest problems is there's not been

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a standard of terms with definitions. No, for

00:16:55.110 --> 00:16:57.710
sure. We hope there's one coming soon. Yes, we

00:16:57.710 --> 00:16:59.570
hope there's one coming soon. We spent a lot

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of time trying to write definitions with a lot

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of help. But there hasn't been. And I mean, I

00:17:08.470 --> 00:17:13.650
had a student, two students last year at AFS.

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uh looked at the languages language of sex and

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gender in the abstracts of ass for the last uh

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20 years and in all of all of the um sections

00:17:26.680 --> 00:17:29.019
not anthropology but all of the sections and

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and there's been a lot of conflation where sex

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and gender are assumed to be the same thing and

00:17:35.460 --> 00:17:39.279
are used that way um and then there's just been

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in anthropology Interestingly, you see the change

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of terminology where it's more common to say

00:17:47.990 --> 00:17:55.170
biological sex nowadays when, you know, before,

00:17:55.390 --> 00:17:58.450
I mean, they were talking more about sexual determinism

00:17:58.450 --> 00:18:00.490
and things like that. Those are more common terms.

00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:03.740
Sometimes we need to take a step back and we

00:18:03.740 --> 00:18:05.940
need to look at what is going on in our field

00:18:05.940 --> 00:18:08.579
so that we can understand where we came from

00:18:08.579 --> 00:18:11.279
and maybe why. There are probably historical

00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:14.900
reasons for why some of these terms were changing

00:18:14.900 --> 00:18:17.039
out, but anthropology is the one that's changing

00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:20.599
them. Everybody else, all of these other sections

00:18:20.599 --> 00:18:24.039
are really staying the same. They're not investing

00:18:24.039 --> 00:18:31.039
in definitions. anthropologists then we why aren't

00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:34.480
we we can do that then I I'm not you know I'm

00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:37.720
not an English professor but like I can look

00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:39.519
up things that I can tell you what I think about

00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:42.559
them and if we need to help you know other sections

00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:45.700
in forensic sciences have more of a standard

00:18:45.700 --> 00:18:48.700
by which we can have a shared understanding of

00:18:48.700 --> 00:18:51.180
a word then we should be doing that because anthropologists

00:18:51.180 --> 00:18:54.799
seem to be the ones most motivated to do that

00:18:55.349 --> 00:18:58.569
and so um so what we're doing yet now hopefully

00:18:58.569 --> 00:19:02.609
in this one paper is trying to do that um again

00:19:02.609 --> 00:19:05.329
but it's it's these are these are living terms

00:19:05.329 --> 00:19:09.170
they're going to change as needed but hopefully

00:19:09.170 --> 00:19:12.549
people will stop using some terms and use other

00:19:12.549 --> 00:19:14.470
ones and at least have a definition for them

00:19:14.470 --> 00:19:16.910
so if you're using a term i can at least know

00:19:16.910 --> 00:19:20.910
what you mean well i wonder if that's because

00:19:22.220 --> 00:19:24.599
Like I had said, we're trying to bring anthropology

00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:26.680
back into forensic anthropology, and I wonder

00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:32.119
if that's because that is happening with, I don't

00:19:32.119 --> 00:19:35.660
want to say younger, but this more sort of younger

00:19:35.660 --> 00:19:41.380
set, the usses, the collective usses right now,

00:19:41.500 --> 00:19:50.039
in the field that have that mindset of trying

00:19:50.039 --> 00:19:53.980
to say, you know, the sociocultural anthropology

00:19:53.980 --> 00:19:57.240
is not that bad and we need to incorporate it.

00:19:57.299 --> 00:20:02.160
Because I remember when I first started coming

00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:05.220
to AFS, the very first meeting was when they

00:20:05.220 --> 00:20:09.440
dropped the term physical from the anthropology

00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:14.740
section. And that was a big deal because, well,

00:20:14.859 --> 00:20:17.440
that means that the cultural anthropologists

00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:21.299
could come in and there were a lot of... older

00:20:21.299 --> 00:20:24.900
people that did not want that to happen. But

00:20:24.900 --> 00:20:27.700
now you have younger individuals who are more

00:20:27.700 --> 00:20:33.599
willing to embrace our cultural cousins, academic

00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:37.799
cousins, and bring in those theories, bring in

00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:41.680
those ideas. But when you look at the other sections,

00:20:41.799 --> 00:20:45.740
the other areas of forensic science, they don't

00:20:45.740 --> 00:20:50.750
have that humanities sort of subfield. that's

00:20:50.750 --> 00:20:55.349
related to them there's no humanity's side of

00:20:55.349 --> 00:20:59.990
pathology pathology is pathology you have clinical

00:20:59.990 --> 00:21:03.730
and you have forensics and anatomical but you

00:21:03.730 --> 00:21:06.750
don't have a humanities side there's no humanities

00:21:06.750 --> 00:21:13.230
toxicology there's no humanities biology so we

00:21:13.230 --> 00:21:19.740
have that sort of side piece that we're able

00:21:19.740 --> 00:21:22.160
to build on, that we're able to turn on, and

00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:24.759
we're able to relate to because they're in our

00:21:24.759 --> 00:21:28.799
departments. We're able to talk to them and we

00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:32.099
can sort of turn up these definitions and turn

00:21:32.099 --> 00:21:41.599
up new ideas that the other sort of areas of

00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:45.950
forensic science just don't have access to. Well,

00:21:45.970 --> 00:21:49.529
I think a lot of it goes back to, I mean, I feel

00:21:49.529 --> 00:21:51.890
like I probably bring up my thesis every episode,

00:21:51.950 --> 00:21:53.750
but it all goes back to people thinking that

00:21:53.750 --> 00:21:55.910
they can be objective when you can't because

00:21:55.910 --> 00:21:59.289
you're people. And so like, I mean, my thesis

00:21:59.289 --> 00:22:02.690
itself was seeing if like gendered clothing affected

00:22:02.690 --> 00:22:06.369
sex assessment. And that is getting at that exact,

00:22:06.589 --> 00:22:10.279
like. Is what you're seeing contextually affecting

00:22:10.279 --> 00:22:13.859
how you pretend to be objective for this skeletal

00:22:13.859 --> 00:22:16.819
sex assessment? And the answer is yes. And so

00:22:16.819 --> 00:22:21.319
it's like, let's not, I think it's so much of

00:22:21.319 --> 00:22:24.700
science and especially for like forensic science,

00:22:24.819 --> 00:22:27.539
like for anthropology specifically, there's been

00:22:27.539 --> 00:22:30.700
such a push for so long to say we're separate

00:22:30.700 --> 00:22:34.559
from that. We aren't. We aren't bioarchaeologists.

00:22:34.579 --> 00:22:37.220
We're not cultural anthropologists. We're forensics.

00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:40.039
We're hard science. We're objective. We can be

00:22:40.039 --> 00:22:44.259
the ground truth of what biology is. And there

00:22:44.259 --> 00:22:46.680
just isn't that because people are doing the

00:22:46.680 --> 00:22:51.819
science. And so it's like trying to pretend to

00:22:51.819 --> 00:22:54.140
be something that we're not and that we can be

00:22:54.140 --> 00:22:58.500
in ourselves binary in our decisions doesn't

00:22:58.500 --> 00:23:04.740
help. I think we have, we have. in as forensic

00:23:04.740 --> 00:23:08.299
anthropologists like you have another level of

00:23:08.299 --> 00:23:15.720
of responsibility to use your knowledge like

00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:18.559
all of it and direct it in a way and and that

00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:21.859
can be difficult because you're we're in an interesting

00:23:21.859 --> 00:23:25.740
position of like more of an academic kind of

00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:28.680
background than a lot of forensic scientists

00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:31.700
are and but that does and so you have to communicate

00:23:31.700 --> 00:23:36.440
in a new way um but I think that that shouldn't

00:23:36.440 --> 00:23:40.660
mean that you drop certain things like I mean

00:23:40.660 --> 00:23:43.039
they're just the last couple years there's a

00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:45.859
couple of articles you know trying to reintroduce

00:23:45.859 --> 00:23:47.900
you know evolutionary theory and forensic anthropology

00:23:47.900 --> 00:23:50.799
too and it's like well how would that how is

00:23:50.799 --> 00:23:53.079
that ever lost like we're literally looking at

00:23:53.079 --> 00:23:56.819
variation but yet it It's sort of lost because

00:23:56.819 --> 00:24:00.000
you have to talk to different types of people

00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:02.900
in a way that they can understand. But that doesn't

00:24:02.900 --> 00:24:09.059
mean that you avoid the truth of the matter,

00:24:09.099 --> 00:24:12.079
even like the truth of our statistics. Don't

00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:15.700
simplify it to the point that it's wrong. And

00:24:15.700 --> 00:24:21.000
I think that that has got away from some people.

00:24:23.119 --> 00:24:26.019
that it needs to just be reiterated to especially

00:24:26.019 --> 00:24:30.119
to students when you know if you're a lover of

00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:32.500
bones and taking biological anthropology and

00:24:32.500 --> 00:24:35.519
want to do forensic anthropology and because

00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:38.000
I've met some students like this that don't want

00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:42.519
to take that cultural class or even like an archaeology

00:24:42.519 --> 00:24:47.000
class that we reiterate to them in biological

00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:52.130
anthropology why you need that class. That it

00:24:52.130 --> 00:24:55.809
is going to be a daily part of your operations

00:24:55.809 --> 00:25:00.029
as an anthropologist. You're there as an anthropologist.

00:25:00.089 --> 00:25:02.150
You're not just there as somebody who looks at

00:25:02.150 --> 00:25:06.630
bones and numbers because that's your results

00:25:06.630 --> 00:25:09.730
and then you need to interpret them and that's

00:25:09.730 --> 00:25:14.430
a broader ability and that's broader information.

00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:18.519
contextual information and don't forget that

00:25:18.519 --> 00:25:21.259
you need that and don't forget who you are as

00:25:21.259 --> 00:25:23.119
an anthropologist because I think you can forget

00:25:23.119 --> 00:25:26.039
that when you're working in the government or

00:25:26.039 --> 00:25:28.640
with law enforcement all the time because those

00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:32.759
because it's a different type of environment

00:25:32.759 --> 00:25:38.920
from where you came from right yeah I guess I

00:25:38.920 --> 00:25:40.779
have I have one question for both of y 'all having

00:25:41.500 --> 00:25:45.180
done this type of research and lived experience

00:25:45.180 --> 00:25:51.160
and things like that but like so kind of at the

00:25:51.160 --> 00:25:54.640
end of my thesis kind of our decision was like

00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:57.539
well one we need more anthropologists because

00:25:57.539 --> 00:26:02.119
obviously context is affecting our sex assessments

00:26:02.119 --> 00:26:04.980
and they're affecting you know how we're making

00:26:04.980 --> 00:26:09.700
these overall interpretations but in trying to

00:26:09.700 --> 00:26:14.609
like for application purposes, for going to law

00:26:14.609 --> 00:26:17.029
enforcement of giving, you know, a biological

00:26:17.029 --> 00:26:20.569
profile or giving some type of context into who

00:26:20.569 --> 00:26:23.170
the person likely was, because what they're trying

00:26:23.170 --> 00:26:27.210
to figure out is who is it? And so if I use the

00:26:27.210 --> 00:26:32.650
context too much and sway it too far into, well,

00:26:32.789 --> 00:26:39.920
now I'm saying female sex and I'm not. Like,

00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:41.759
because, you know, I saw a dress or heels or

00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:47.339
whatever, and I'm ignoring some of the skeletal

00:26:47.339 --> 00:26:50.420
traits that are conflicting that. While that

00:26:50.420 --> 00:26:52.799
actually gives me a bigger picture of, okay,

00:26:52.839 --> 00:26:56.259
someone has skeletal traits that might be considered

00:26:56.259 --> 00:26:58.539
more masculine or might be considered more male

00:26:58.539 --> 00:27:02.160
biologically, but they're wearing feminine clothing.

00:27:02.200 --> 00:27:04.440
And that gives you a bigger picture of who the

00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:10.170
person is. I guess, what would y 'all's... guidance

00:27:10.170 --> 00:27:12.549
be maybe and obviously like I'm not saying like

00:27:12.549 --> 00:27:14.410
you have to have a full answer of this is what

00:27:14.410 --> 00:27:19.049
we should all do now but like the how do we go

00:27:19.049 --> 00:27:23.130
about understanding context and having that context

00:27:23.130 --> 00:27:25.390
because it is important for the overall picture

00:27:25.390 --> 00:27:30.730
but for that context to not bias our first assessment

00:27:30.730 --> 00:27:34.890
if that makes sense because like if the contextual

00:27:34.890 --> 00:27:37.329
information is biasing that first context to

00:27:37.329 --> 00:27:41.369
a different answer then we're not getting the

00:27:41.369 --> 00:27:44.430
bigger picture. And so like, I know for like

00:27:44.430 --> 00:27:46.789
my advisor and I were like, well, maybe we have

00:27:46.789 --> 00:27:48.710
more than one anthropologist, one person that

00:27:48.710 --> 00:27:50.890
knows none of the context and one person that

00:27:50.890 --> 00:27:53.130
knows all the context. And then you mash all

00:27:53.130 --> 00:27:55.630
the information together to give that assessment

00:27:55.630 --> 00:27:59.730
to law enforcement or whatever. But there's not

00:27:59.730 --> 00:28:01.609
very many of us. We don't get paid very well

00:28:01.609 --> 00:28:04.109
enough. So then like, is that practical? How

00:28:04.109 --> 00:28:05.730
do we go about doing that? I didn't know if y

00:28:05.730 --> 00:28:14.150
'all had any. Any ideas, I guess? We do! And

00:28:14.150 --> 00:28:19.670
you're not far off. So I want to introduce this

00:28:19.670 --> 00:28:24.089
idea, because I haven't said it yet, but abbreviated

00:28:24.089 --> 00:28:27.910
as COSAGE, C -O -S -A -G -E, which is contextual

00:28:27.910 --> 00:28:32.130
observations in support of all gender expressions,

00:28:32.309 --> 00:28:37.559
is this idea that we have, which is a form. to

00:28:37.559 --> 00:28:42.880
be used as a tool. Okay. Um, and so the first

00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:45.500
thing like to answer your question is that we,

00:28:45.539 --> 00:28:50.299
we agree that this will, you will have some bias

00:28:50.299 --> 00:28:54.420
going on if you know everything, um, because

00:28:54.420 --> 00:28:57.819
it's happened and you just confirmed that there's,

00:28:57.819 --> 00:28:59.940
there's cases of it and you've confirmed it yourself.

00:29:00.180 --> 00:29:04.859
Um, and so that this should start off as a skeletal

00:29:04.859 --> 00:29:09.480
analysis. hopefully in the blind as much as possible.

00:29:10.140 --> 00:29:13.680
That's not always possible. If you're recovering

00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:18.180
remains, you might see clothing and things like

00:29:18.180 --> 00:29:22.400
that. So it's not always possible. But certainly

00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:27.220
as part of the working standard for sex estimation,

00:29:27.640 --> 00:29:31.940
it should be as much about separating that skeletal

00:29:31.940 --> 00:29:37.710
analysis from context initially. But as we move

00:29:37.710 --> 00:29:43.990
through this form, which starts out as skeletal

00:29:43.990 --> 00:29:48.490
sex estimation in many forms, just but starting

00:29:48.490 --> 00:29:50.569
out that without any contextual information,

00:29:50.809 --> 00:29:53.789
this is kind of a collaborative idea. So that

00:29:53.789 --> 00:29:57.890
you should be collaborating with your medical

00:29:57.890 --> 00:30:05.430
legal team, coroners, MEs, archaeologists. I

00:30:05.430 --> 00:30:09.150
don't think that you can unsee things that you've

00:30:09.150 --> 00:30:13.109
seen. You can just do the best you can. And so

00:30:13.109 --> 00:30:17.690
I think maybe you note, hey, I was there. Just

00:30:17.690 --> 00:30:21.289
like in cultural anthropology, you note your

00:30:21.289 --> 00:30:24.230
biases. That is a bias. You can't really undo

00:30:24.230 --> 00:30:28.930
those things. But you can say I was there. You

00:30:28.930 --> 00:30:33.019
could admit that this might. be biasing, but

00:30:33.019 --> 00:30:35.099
you should still be, and that's why it should

00:30:35.099 --> 00:30:38.279
be as systematic as you can methodologically

00:30:38.279 --> 00:30:43.299
with the skeletal part of that, because that

00:30:43.299 --> 00:30:47.039
is the forensic anthropology part. And we want

00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:52.799
to keep that as separate as possible from the

00:30:52.799 --> 00:30:55.900
rest of it. Context should be there, which is

00:30:55.900 --> 00:30:58.960
the point of the form. uh that we should think

00:30:58.960 --> 00:31:01.799
about context it's like a tool to work through

00:31:01.799 --> 00:31:04.960
it's a thinking process so you should not ignore

00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:10.259
context and you should go about getting information

00:31:10.259 --> 00:31:14.819
about the context from various sources including

00:31:16.730 --> 00:31:19.089
not just like law enforcement and medical legal,

00:31:19.230 --> 00:31:23.150
but an archaeologist, but community members who

00:31:23.150 --> 00:31:25.910
have also knowledge that should be seen as the

00:31:25.910 --> 00:31:29.690
same level as knowledge as any other forensic

00:31:29.690 --> 00:31:33.190
scientist there, because they will a lot of times

00:31:33.190 --> 00:31:38.990
be teaching you a lot. But so, yeah, I don't,

00:31:38.990 --> 00:31:40.910
Ashley, was there some other, did you have another?

00:31:41.630 --> 00:31:44.390
Component to answering that question. No, that's

00:31:44.390 --> 00:31:49.309
basically the same way. And ideally, you'd have

00:31:49.309 --> 00:31:52.170
as many people as you could working on it. But

00:31:52.170 --> 00:31:55.789
if it has to, you know, you work on the skeleton.

00:31:56.910 --> 00:32:03.569
For me now, the way I do it, if you are limited

00:32:03.569 --> 00:32:07.130
in individuals, limited in the number of people

00:32:07.130 --> 00:32:10.609
you could work on is you have the skeletal assessment.

00:32:11.480 --> 00:32:14.019
And then you start getting that contextual information

00:32:14.019 --> 00:32:20.359
and start going this back and forth to build

00:32:20.359 --> 00:32:25.880
that more fuller picture of who that individual

00:32:25.880 --> 00:32:31.920
was. I mean, I'm not an expert in like clothing.

00:32:32.059 --> 00:32:36.839
So if I have a historical skeleton and they have

00:32:36.839 --> 00:32:41.170
clothing, you know. I'm still I'm gonna and sometimes

00:32:41.170 --> 00:32:43.450
it comes to you sometimes it doesn't like it

00:32:43.450 --> 00:32:48.769
it depends on frankly where you are in the country

00:32:48.769 --> 00:32:51.230
the infrastructure for like of forensics and

00:32:51.230 --> 00:32:53.529
archaeology it really varies because I've gotten

00:32:53.529 --> 00:32:58.170
plenty of I've gotten a I got a a gun once in

00:32:58.170 --> 00:33:01.309
a box of bones so I sometimes it happens sometimes

00:33:01.309 --> 00:33:04.470
it doesn't um but like so from a one example

00:33:05.240 --> 00:33:08.000
from an historic archaeological site is that

00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:10.519
you know we got some clothing like buttons and

00:33:10.519 --> 00:33:13.900
things i know that there are people that specifically

00:33:13.900 --> 00:33:17.859
study buttons i am not that person i can say

00:33:17.859 --> 00:33:20.460
it's a button and i'm going to ask somebody and

00:33:20.460 --> 00:33:23.259
i'm going to put it over there and maybe email

00:33:23.259 --> 00:33:25.339
somebody and then i'm going to do the thing that

00:33:25.339 --> 00:33:27.680
i know how to do and it and and you should be

00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:30.500
doing that as a forensic forensic anthropologist

00:33:30.500 --> 00:33:34.430
like you should not be uh saying I'm an expert

00:33:34.430 --> 00:33:38.150
in this or pretending in any way whatsoever that

00:33:38.150 --> 00:33:40.450
you know anything about clothing because you

00:33:40.450 --> 00:33:44.349
don't. You know as a person in the world, but

00:33:44.349 --> 00:33:49.289
that's it. And so that contextual information

00:33:49.289 --> 00:33:52.569
might be there when you don't want it at first,

00:33:52.650 --> 00:33:56.069
but you're not that expert and you need to set

00:33:56.069 --> 00:34:00.160
it. aside and then get those people that are.

00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:03.900
And then it's not always easy to do that either.

00:34:04.559 --> 00:34:09.159
And so a lot of things that some of the reasons

00:34:09.159 --> 00:34:12.039
behind some of this form was that were the basis

00:34:12.039 --> 00:34:15.599
of like cold cases. One of the best examples,

00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:21.400
which was now she was identified was Julie Doe,

00:34:21.400 --> 00:34:27.780
Pamela Walton by the DNA Doe Project. I can't

00:34:27.780 --> 00:34:29.360
remember if it was earlier. I think it was earlier

00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:32.360
this year. Um, but Julie Doe is a very well known,

00:34:32.440 --> 00:34:38.199
um, case, um, from Florida from the eighties,

00:34:38.199 --> 00:34:43.500
the late eighties. And, um, And I've used it

00:34:43.500 --> 00:34:47.460
like as an example for years before she was actually

00:34:47.460 --> 00:34:51.659
identified. I was I consult with the DNA Doe

00:34:51.659 --> 00:34:54.019
Project. And so it was a very long waiting. We

00:34:54.019 --> 00:34:55.960
knew she was identified. We had to wait quite

00:34:55.960 --> 00:34:57.900
a while until we could say that she was here.

00:34:57.980 --> 00:35:00.739
So but it was years and many it was many years.

00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:05.760
One of the longest, most complicated transgender

00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:08.599
female cases, which there aren't that many. But

00:35:08.599 --> 00:35:10.699
this is a great example of one that's really

00:35:10.699 --> 00:35:15.639
well known. And there's a lot of, there was this,

00:35:15.719 --> 00:35:19.880
in this case, initially there was, when the body

00:35:19.880 --> 00:35:22.579
was discovered, there was clothing, there was

00:35:22.579 --> 00:35:27.260
like a skirt, long hair, nails, silicon breasts,

00:35:27.460 --> 00:35:30.940
implants, things like that were associated. The

00:35:30.940 --> 00:35:34.320
forensic anthropologist was, I don't believe

00:35:34.320 --> 00:35:37.099
at a recovery, but was aware of these things.

00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:42.619
And so initially. when the report was written,

00:35:42.760 --> 00:35:46.400
it probably was a biasing factor. You don't know

00:35:46.400 --> 00:35:52.000
for sure. Nobody wrote that down, but it probably

00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:56.980
was. And they even suggested that this individual

00:35:56.980 --> 00:36:00.079
had given birth from parturition pits, which

00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:02.460
we would not use anymore for this purpose, but

00:36:02.460 --> 00:36:06.210
there was even that for this case. And so this

00:36:06.210 --> 00:36:09.969
case sat there and was re -looked at in 2011.

00:36:12.090 --> 00:36:16.329
And the person that looked at it was like, oh,

00:36:16.329 --> 00:36:21.909
wait, I don't think that this is a female skeleton.

00:36:21.909 --> 00:36:25.050
I think that this is a male skeleton and that

00:36:25.050 --> 00:36:28.619
these other things are. were biasing factors

00:36:28.619 --> 00:36:31.360
and we shouldn't have considered them. And so

00:36:31.360 --> 00:36:35.760
this is when this case became more prominently

00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:41.619
known. And only again, this year, earlier this

00:36:41.619 --> 00:36:44.340
year, was this individual identified from, they

00:36:44.340 --> 00:36:48.559
did do DNA. And so there was a karyotype, an

00:36:48.559 --> 00:36:52.139
XY karyotype, but also a very complicated story.

00:36:52.199 --> 00:36:54.599
This individual lived as a transgender female

00:36:54.599 --> 00:37:00.000
in Florida. um and left i think kentucky or tennessee

00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:04.059
one of those states but they had a lot of family

00:37:04.059 --> 00:37:10.000
there um and it was a very complicated i don't

00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:12.360
know family tree for whatever reason but this

00:37:12.360 --> 00:37:16.440
if anybody looks it up uh the it's an interesting

00:37:16.440 --> 00:37:18.840
case to look at for transgender cases because

00:37:18.840 --> 00:37:22.780
of the artwork that was created um which is pretty

00:37:23.309 --> 00:37:28.090
terrible uh initially anybody can google it uh

00:37:28.090 --> 00:37:30.690
julie doe you can google julie doe and it'll

00:37:30.690 --> 00:37:35.750
come up um but the dna doe project redid the

00:37:35.750 --> 00:37:41.530
art when after this 2011 2011 analysis came out

00:37:41.530 --> 00:37:46.309
to portray this as a human and not just like

00:37:46.309 --> 00:37:49.429
a man with a wig on because that's essentially

00:37:49.429 --> 00:37:55.570
what it looked like as art. And so this is something

00:37:55.570 --> 00:37:58.010
that we're starting to do too. It's not just

00:37:58.010 --> 00:38:01.730
a reanalysis, but how can we make this, put this

00:38:01.730 --> 00:38:04.590
into the public light where people have a different

00:38:04.590 --> 00:38:07.260
judgment of it because we believe that The public

00:38:07.260 --> 00:38:10.039
also has cognitive bias when they're looking

00:38:10.039 --> 00:38:12.440
at casework for those cases that they care about.

00:38:14.019 --> 00:38:17.019
We've seen this in numerous cases where people

00:38:17.019 --> 00:38:19.739
just have comments. I can read Reddit about all

00:38:19.739 --> 00:38:23.039
these cases, and sometimes the comments are pretty

00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:26.219
terrible, or they're just out of left field.

00:38:26.460 --> 00:38:30.559
And that can have to do with what we put out

00:38:30.559 --> 00:38:32.579
there, what the artist puts out there, or what

00:38:32.579 --> 00:38:34.800
a forensic anthropologist did or did not say.

00:38:35.789 --> 00:38:41.230
And so some of the practices for this co -stage

00:38:41.230 --> 00:38:45.730
form also have to do with, you know, use of like

00:38:45.730 --> 00:38:49.849
more neutral verbs than saying she or he and

00:38:49.849 --> 00:38:52.150
things like that, which might not be useful because

00:38:52.150 --> 00:39:05.019
we know that of something like 35 % of the I'm

00:39:05.019 --> 00:39:08.500
trying to remember, 35 % of the cases that were

00:39:08.500 --> 00:39:14.719
gender diverse cases through the human rights

00:39:14.719 --> 00:39:22.860
campaign were individuals that were dead named

00:39:22.860 --> 00:39:26.039
or misgendered. And so think about the fact that

00:39:26.039 --> 00:39:29.659
that's a really large, that's a high percentage

00:39:29.659 --> 00:39:32.449
of individuals then that you know, if these were

00:39:32.449 --> 00:39:34.849
cold cases, that they're just, we're not looking

00:39:34.849 --> 00:39:40.510
beyond whatever sex they were listed on a database

00:39:40.510 --> 00:39:42.929
on. We're not looking beyond that because law

00:39:42.929 --> 00:39:44.789
enforcement isn't doing that. An anthropologist

00:39:44.789 --> 00:39:47.130
might think there's things beyond that, contextual

00:39:47.130 --> 00:39:51.550
things beyond that, but a police officer probably

00:39:51.550 --> 00:39:54.309
isn't. Now they're getting more training, depending

00:39:54.309 --> 00:39:59.179
on where we are in the country, but... um there's

00:39:59.179 --> 00:40:02.420
some limitations and i mean i can talk about

00:40:02.420 --> 00:40:06.059
some of the issues of namus for for like a while

00:40:06.059 --> 00:40:10.320
i think we all probably could yeah yeah yeah

00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:13.420
i we've written about it several times like a

00:40:13.420 --> 00:40:14.920
lot of people have written about some of the

00:40:14.920 --> 00:40:17.940
issues now i'm not saying like in general we

00:40:17.940 --> 00:40:20.320
need namus okay like let's not get rid of namus

00:40:20.320 --> 00:40:25.460
we need namus um but anthropologists don't have

00:40:25.460 --> 00:40:28.829
that much as much input as we could on something

00:40:28.829 --> 00:40:31.650
like NamUs. We may or may not have any real input.

00:40:31.809 --> 00:40:34.570
We might just give our reports to law enforcement

00:40:34.570 --> 00:40:36.769
and the law enforcement may or may not use them

00:40:36.769 --> 00:40:42.869
to input information on NamUs, which is restricted

00:40:42.869 --> 00:40:46.250
on, first of all, it's not mandated, right? Like

00:40:46.250 --> 00:40:49.530
we all know that it's not a federal mandate that

00:40:49.530 --> 00:40:53.889
people use NamUs to list their unidentified or

00:40:53.889 --> 00:40:58.070
missing individuals. But it also is restricted

00:40:58.070 --> 00:41:03.269
for the section that talks about sex. And it's

00:41:03.269 --> 00:41:06.489
changed. We talked a little bit about that in

00:41:06.489 --> 00:41:12.150
this paper, how through time, some of the terms

00:41:12.150 --> 00:41:16.309
and categories that might be listed have changed

00:41:16.309 --> 00:41:20.269
in NamUs for sex in particular, but that there

00:41:20.269 --> 00:41:23.340
is no, there's nothing like a A pull down tab

00:41:23.340 --> 00:41:26.639
where you can say this is the definition of the

00:41:26.639 --> 00:41:29.039
tab that I'm pulling down and I want to use uncertain

00:41:29.039 --> 00:41:32.780
versus unknown versus what male and female. I

00:41:32.780 --> 00:41:35.500
just said, I don't know. I don't have a great

00:41:35.500 --> 00:41:39.159
definition of these things. But yet, if those

00:41:39.159 --> 00:41:41.519
are the only categories and you have people that

00:41:41.519 --> 00:41:43.460
aren't thinking about the definitions, you're

00:41:43.460 --> 00:41:45.780
going to be quite limited. You're going to miss

00:41:45.780 --> 00:41:50.570
large proportions of. of groups of matching people

00:41:50.570 --> 00:41:52.409
that you could be looking for for an unidentified

00:41:52.409 --> 00:41:56.289
person if you have those limitations. And so

00:41:56.289 --> 00:42:02.150
this form takes what we have in NamUs and says,

00:42:02.389 --> 00:42:06.690
so if this is what we have, you know, an anthropologist

00:42:06.690 --> 00:42:11.309
has these answers with the skeletal and the contextual

00:42:11.309 --> 00:42:14.409
information. mesh with each other or don't mesh

00:42:14.409 --> 00:42:16.829
with each other or you're missing data and don't

00:42:16.829 --> 00:42:20.030
have cannot do sex estimation at all what should

00:42:20.030 --> 00:42:23.150
we put into namus and so we try to define that

00:42:23.150 --> 00:42:28.769
a bit better um and really like a large portion

00:42:28.769 --> 00:42:32.210
of this paper is kind of instructions on what

00:42:32.210 --> 00:42:37.829
we think based on on um the stakeholders in of

00:42:37.829 --> 00:42:40.449
of authors that we have but also other individuals

00:42:40.449 --> 00:42:42.949
from the community of what what would work best

00:42:42.949 --> 00:42:46.909
for not excluding matches because once you start

00:42:46.909 --> 00:42:49.969
excluding matches like once once you're looking

00:42:49.969 --> 00:42:55.449
for just males and never females uh that is 50

00:42:55.449 --> 00:42:58.730
50 where we're really like in the system that

00:42:58.730 --> 00:43:01.469
is you're excluding 50 of what you're looking

00:43:01.469 --> 00:43:05.360
for and almost nobody ever has the cake the categories

00:43:05.360 --> 00:43:08.099
uncertain or other almost nobody ever uses them

00:43:08.099 --> 00:43:11.840
um an occasion in in namus and if they do we

00:43:11.840 --> 00:43:14.739
don't know why we don't know if it's because

00:43:14.739 --> 00:43:17.920
you're saying this person is intersex or because

00:43:17.920 --> 00:43:20.139
you just have no idea or you just didn't know

00:43:20.139 --> 00:43:23.619
the answer or just put nothing we we don't know

00:43:23.619 --> 00:43:26.579
why and so this form we try to have at least

00:43:26.579 --> 00:43:28.800
the anthropologists initially walk through the

00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:31.980
process of why you're saying what you're saying

00:43:31.980 --> 00:43:35.880
and be as specific as possible. Hey, I can't

00:43:35.880 --> 00:43:38.719
determine sex because I'm missing all these parts

00:43:38.719 --> 00:43:43.019
of the skeleton. That should be written somewhere.

00:43:43.739 --> 00:43:45.840
It should be written really clearly somewhere

00:43:45.840 --> 00:43:50.039
so that people can decide on going back and looking

00:43:50.039 --> 00:43:52.639
at cold case files again and what needs to be

00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:56.340
done. And it's not always written very clearly.

00:43:56.460 --> 00:44:01.840
It certainly isn't in NamUs. even in an anthropological

00:44:01.840 --> 00:44:03.679
report, it might not be written. So it's kind

00:44:03.679 --> 00:44:07.360
of a process of like, let's go through and think

00:44:07.360 --> 00:44:11.139
about what we're doing, how that can affect the

00:44:11.139 --> 00:44:16.579
case in the future. And eventually that gets

00:44:16.579 --> 00:44:19.920
down to gender and context, but it starts with

00:44:19.920 --> 00:44:24.860
skeletal sex estimation and how we got there

00:44:24.860 --> 00:44:30.099
as precisely as we can. Because even, you know,

00:44:30.099 --> 00:44:32.000
methods change, right? So I want to know what

00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:34.440
methods you used and why maybe you use those

00:44:34.440 --> 00:44:36.860
methods. Because somebody can look at this case

00:44:36.860 --> 00:44:39.380
in the future and make better decisions about

00:44:39.380 --> 00:44:41.400
what they want to do with it if they know that.

00:44:41.519 --> 00:44:44.320
We don't all have access to, you know, it would

00:44:44.320 --> 00:44:46.199
be great, but we don't have access to everybody's

00:44:46.199 --> 00:44:49.599
case files and they might get lost. And so if

00:44:49.599 --> 00:44:52.519
we have like, you know, this is an appendix or

00:44:52.519 --> 00:44:55.900
something where. This is more specific than the

00:44:55.900 --> 00:44:57.840
report that's written to law enforcement, which

00:44:57.840 --> 00:45:02.519
it probably will be because they're not terribly

00:45:02.519 --> 00:45:05.920
specific. Some are super, super short. If you

00:45:05.920 --> 00:45:08.239
ever read an FBI one, it's super, super short.

00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:14.500
It leaves a lot of lackluster for the forensic

00:45:14.500 --> 00:45:16.960
anthropologist to be like, oh, that's all you

00:45:16.960 --> 00:45:21.079
put in a report? Yeah, because we're conforming

00:45:21.079 --> 00:45:24.599
it to... the end product, the need, but not the

00:45:24.599 --> 00:45:27.619
long term of what a case could be. And so that's

00:45:27.619 --> 00:45:29.780
a problem with a case like Julie Doe where we

00:45:29.780 --> 00:45:32.219
have to, you need to know long term. And this

00:45:32.219 --> 00:45:36.099
is one of the longest reports I have arrived

00:45:36.099 --> 00:45:39.039
was from Julie Doe because it had a lot of, you

00:45:39.039 --> 00:45:43.840
know, the same type of law enforcement notes

00:45:43.840 --> 00:45:46.280
on it, but none of them were helpful for understanding

00:45:46.280 --> 00:45:50.969
what I would want to do in the future. um as

00:45:50.969 --> 00:45:52.929
an anthropologist and this is of course if you

00:45:52.929 --> 00:45:56.010
use dna or not use dna with skeletal analysis

00:45:56.010 --> 00:46:00.090
is is is still important if anybody's wondering

00:46:00.090 --> 00:46:03.309
and i do a lot of dna but it's still important

00:46:03.309 --> 00:46:06.269
to do but yeah so i wanted to bring up julie

00:46:06.269 --> 00:46:09.690
doe just because i was very excited and she was

00:46:09.690 --> 00:46:12.909
finally identified along with a couple others,

00:46:13.170 --> 00:46:15.949
but people like the DNA Doe Project, if any students

00:46:15.949 --> 00:46:19.389
are interested, and we were talking about genealogy

00:46:19.389 --> 00:46:21.630
really quickly before we started here, and so

00:46:21.630 --> 00:46:25.369
Forensic Investigative Genetic Genealogy, FIG,

00:46:25.469 --> 00:46:28.510
I hope I got that one correct, for any of the

00:46:28.510 --> 00:46:30.809
students. That's the big thing these days. They

00:46:30.809 --> 00:46:35.449
change it all the time, but it's FIG, but so

00:46:35.449 --> 00:46:38.090
students can get involved in that too. I think

00:46:38.090 --> 00:46:41.289
Namus is starting to use. big more regularly

00:46:41.289 --> 00:46:45.610
as well. So, yeah. No, I appreciate you saying

00:46:45.610 --> 00:46:47.869
that. Cause I just, I think that's one of the

00:46:47.869 --> 00:46:50.809
things that I know for myself with report writing,

00:46:50.869 --> 00:46:54.610
I struggle with a lot because doing the job I

00:46:54.610 --> 00:46:57.889
do, there's obviously a lot of standardization

00:46:57.889 --> 00:47:01.110
that occurs and a lot of restrictions on how

00:47:01.110 --> 00:47:04.739
like. analyses are presented what analyses i

00:47:04.739 --> 00:47:07.599
can even do like are the methods in our standard

00:47:07.599 --> 00:47:09.539
operating procedures can i even use the methods

00:47:09.539 --> 00:47:12.119
that maybe i want to and those different types

00:47:12.119 --> 00:47:14.400
of things because they all follow under certain

00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:18.679
accreditations that while are really helpful

00:47:18.679 --> 00:47:20.440
for making sure that we're doing good science

00:47:20.440 --> 00:47:23.980
can also sometimes be kind of limiting in some

00:47:23.980 --> 00:47:29.679
of that contextual information and it's I know

00:47:29.679 --> 00:47:33.219
I often in peer reviews and other things, I tend

00:47:33.219 --> 00:47:36.059
to not write in my report because maybe, you

00:47:36.059 --> 00:47:39.059
know, that would make it too long or not conform

00:47:39.059 --> 00:47:41.840
to whatever. But in my notes, I tend to have

00:47:41.840 --> 00:47:45.599
a lot of detail of like, unless so for sex assessment,

00:47:45.699 --> 00:47:49.179
because we don't tend to get clothing or anything

00:47:49.179 --> 00:47:53.260
for our cases sometimes, but not always. Mostly

00:47:53.260 --> 00:47:57.639
not. But just the fact that like, I'm like, okay,

00:47:57.699 --> 00:48:02.400
well I have. a case that is military we you know

00:48:02.400 --> 00:48:05.260
someone dug it up because they said it was this

00:48:05.260 --> 00:48:07.500
person and they just couldn't id them in the

00:48:07.500 --> 00:48:11.199
70s or whatever as that person all of that information

00:48:11.199 --> 00:48:14.880
i know and so like pretending i don't know that

00:48:14.880 --> 00:48:18.059
this is most likely a white man in his 20s is

00:48:18.059 --> 00:48:23.500
to me not transparent and i think as anthropologists

00:48:23.500 --> 00:48:27.059
that's one thing i try to that's one of those

00:48:27.059 --> 00:48:30.719
hills I'll always die on of like, maybe we can't

00:48:30.719 --> 00:48:33.519
control all of our biases. Maybe we can't mitigate

00:48:33.519 --> 00:48:36.559
and be objective to the extent that maybe some

00:48:36.559 --> 00:48:38.760
people want us to be, but we can at least be

00:48:38.760 --> 00:48:41.480
transparent about what we're doing, why we're

00:48:41.480 --> 00:48:44.159
doing it and how we got to the conclusion that

00:48:44.159 --> 00:48:48.489
we're, we're making because otherwise. people

00:48:48.489 --> 00:48:51.110
are left thinking that this is the only option

00:48:51.110 --> 00:48:53.929
of like oh well you did this method this has

00:48:53.929 --> 00:48:55.809
to be the answer when that's not necessarily

00:48:55.809 --> 00:48:58.530
true you're like i did these methods and they

00:48:58.530 --> 00:49:01.050
gave me these results but i used all of this

00:49:01.050 --> 00:49:04.710
other stuff to make my answer and if you're not

00:49:04.710 --> 00:49:08.510
explicit and transparent about those things then

00:49:08.510 --> 00:49:11.269
you know maybe a future anthropologist will look

00:49:11.269 --> 00:49:14.030
at it and be like oh Well, they had a score of

00:49:14.030 --> 00:49:16.190
two for a greater sciatic notch. So they're male

00:49:16.190 --> 00:49:17.869
and we're going to move forward, you know, like,

00:49:17.909 --> 00:49:21.349
and that's not really how that works. That's

00:49:21.349 --> 00:49:23.590
the best word is the transparency. That's definitely

00:49:23.590 --> 00:49:25.690
the key here is like, try to be as transparent

00:49:25.690 --> 00:49:30.889
as you, as you can as a human, however possible

00:49:30.889 --> 00:49:35.070
it is to do that as a human. If you have it written

00:49:35.070 --> 00:49:38.340
down, like somebody can look at it and. you're

00:49:38.340 --> 00:49:40.300
everybody is going to make mistakes and that's

00:49:40.300 --> 00:49:42.539
what we do but if somebody can see that mistake

00:49:42.539 --> 00:49:44.619
in the future and that helps solve a case and

00:49:44.619 --> 00:49:47.679
identify somebody then good I'm glad that you

00:49:47.679 --> 00:49:51.400
saw my mistake right exactly and I think that's

00:49:51.400 --> 00:49:55.860
that being not necessarily okay with being wrong

00:49:55.860 --> 00:50:00.840
but being willing to say I can be wrong is so

00:50:00.840 --> 00:50:03.500
important because yeah I would want someone to

00:50:03.500 --> 00:50:06.340
be like hey you messed up and then for me to

00:50:06.340 --> 00:50:10.059
be like oh i did let me fix that problem so one

00:50:10.059 --> 00:50:12.599
this case can move forward but also so that maybe

00:50:12.599 --> 00:50:15.420
i don't make that mistake moving forward you

00:50:15.420 --> 00:50:23.059
know and even um what you're saying um where

00:50:23.059 --> 00:50:27.300
if you say like probable male or probable female

00:50:27.300 --> 00:50:29.460
and you write that you write that in a report

00:50:29.460 --> 00:50:32.480
you know how is that seen is that They're just

00:50:32.480 --> 00:50:34.239
going to run with male and female. That's what

00:50:34.239 --> 00:50:36.199
they're going to run with. And that's not what

00:50:36.199 --> 00:50:40.119
we mean. And that is not what we mean at all.

00:50:40.500 --> 00:50:43.199
And so like in part of what we talk about for

00:50:43.199 --> 00:50:46.199
using this form is saying like, no, if you have,

00:50:46.239 --> 00:50:49.400
if your stats come out and they say, and it's

00:50:49.400 --> 00:50:53.300
telling us probable, then you need to not say

00:50:53.300 --> 00:50:56.679
male or female. And you need to not put it in

00:50:56.679 --> 00:50:59.780
that category because that is you're excluding

00:50:59.780 --> 00:51:03.440
matches. And you can say why you're not putting

00:51:03.440 --> 00:51:07.539
it there, but that needs to be very clear. The

00:51:07.539 --> 00:51:11.139
language we, it should be put in as like unsure

00:51:11.139 --> 00:51:17.519
is what we suggest on NamUs. And why, and that's

00:51:17.519 --> 00:51:21.599
in the form, but unsure because you're not excluding

00:51:21.599 --> 00:51:23.880
one side, you know, the two halves that we have

00:51:23.880 --> 00:51:28.659
to look at in NamUs by doing that. And so, and.

00:51:29.929 --> 00:51:31.510
most people don't want to look at they're not

00:51:31.510 --> 00:51:33.869
going to really look at the stats like they might

00:51:33.869 --> 00:51:39.429
ask us to say what does that mean but um if you

00:51:39.429 --> 00:51:42.630
put probable probable male they're putting male

00:51:42.630 --> 00:51:45.449
right that's what's happening and that's what's

00:51:45.449 --> 00:51:48.250
going on we're doing the science and moving forward

00:51:48.250 --> 00:51:50.090
with it yeah yeah and it's the same thing with

00:51:50.090 --> 00:51:53.829
ancestry like it's the same same issue yeah and

00:51:53.829 --> 00:51:56.869
so that's why even though like it's nice to have

00:51:56.869 --> 00:52:00.960
it's easier don't stress the problem I said they

00:52:00.960 --> 00:52:04.380
don't stress the probable. Yeah. Yeah. Which

00:52:04.380 --> 00:52:07.820
is the the the actually like that's the objective

00:52:07.820 --> 00:52:10.760
part of what we're trying to get. That's the

00:52:10.760 --> 00:52:13.619
important part, actually. And but it just doesn't

00:52:13.619 --> 00:52:16.019
sound that way. And so it doesn't it doesn't

00:52:16.019 --> 00:52:19.559
come off correctly. And we have a responsibility

00:52:19.559 --> 00:52:21.739
for them to understand for people who are reading

00:52:21.739 --> 00:52:23.559
that to understand what that actually means.

00:52:24.480 --> 00:52:27.119
uh if we have to put an extra line of what that

00:52:27.119 --> 00:52:29.380
means and we have to do that because it's otherwise

00:52:29.380 --> 00:52:33.579
it's not being used you know in a way that it's

00:52:33.579 --> 00:52:36.400
intended in the way that the stats are telling

00:52:36.400 --> 00:52:39.000
us that's it's being interpreted incorrectly

00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:44.460
um right yeah and so this is kind of hopefully

00:52:44.460 --> 00:52:49.119
like a tool to work out some of those issues

00:52:49.119 --> 00:52:52.880
i don't we don't have necessarily like a uh Oh,

00:52:52.900 --> 00:52:55.179
you know, a paragraph of how to describe these

00:52:55.179 --> 00:53:00.260
things. But suggestions of if you're working

00:53:00.260 --> 00:53:02.739
with law enforcement and you have probable and

00:53:02.739 --> 00:53:05.880
you should suggest, well, what if we put unsure

00:53:05.880 --> 00:53:10.059
on nameless and then describe why that'll be

00:53:10.059 --> 00:53:13.139
more useful. So we can do things like that as

00:53:13.139 --> 00:53:16.019
an anthropologist where, you know, you're able

00:53:16.019 --> 00:53:18.300
to suggest things. It depends, of course, on

00:53:18.300 --> 00:53:20.820
who you're working with and whether they. think

00:53:20.820 --> 00:53:23.019
that's, you know, they take you seriously or

00:53:23.019 --> 00:53:26.000
not. But you can try. And I think you have a

00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:29.139
responsibility to do that. Right. I actually,

00:53:29.159 --> 00:53:32.659
on my reports, when I go through everything,

00:53:33.340 --> 00:53:36.539
I'll always list, sort of interpret what each

00:53:36.539 --> 00:53:39.880
individual method is saying. And anytime it says

00:53:39.880 --> 00:53:42.639
probable or something like that, I italicize

00:53:42.639 --> 00:53:48.739
probable. So I'm stressing. All the italics underline

00:53:48.739 --> 00:53:52.019
bigger font. What can we do, right? This is the

00:53:52.019 --> 00:53:56.400
important part. I did want to ask, you know,

00:53:56.460 --> 00:53:59.739
when I give guest lectures and lectures to my

00:53:59.739 --> 00:54:04.320
classes on this topic, one of the things I bring

00:54:04.320 --> 00:54:08.760
up is if you look at the sort of a history almost

00:54:08.760 --> 00:54:12.139
of the, and it's all relatively recent history

00:54:12.139 --> 00:54:22.210
of the writings on trans issues in forensic anthropology.

00:54:23.110 --> 00:54:29.510
You start right around 2019, 2018, 2019, and

00:54:29.510 --> 00:54:34.909
it's a sort of methodology and identification,

00:54:35.489 --> 00:54:39.449
surgical modifications. I'm thinking very clearly

00:54:39.449 --> 00:54:43.050
Shawl and some of the others. And then it quickly

00:54:43.050 --> 00:54:49.469
jumps into why we need to do this. why we need

00:54:49.469 --> 00:54:53.590
to incorporate trans people into forensic anthropological

00:54:53.590 --> 00:54:58.269
research and knowledge and casework and just

00:54:58.269 --> 00:55:02.570
the gestalt of our field. And now we're starting

00:55:02.570 --> 00:55:06.929
to see with, say, Kosage and others that coming

00:55:06.929 --> 00:55:10.769
out. Where do you see, as we're wrapping up,

00:55:10.849 --> 00:55:16.550
where do you see the future of this topic being

00:55:16.550 --> 00:55:26.539
discussed? Particularly given how it's persona

00:55:26.539 --> 00:55:35.340
non grata in academia these days. Yeah. Gosh.

00:55:36.219 --> 00:55:43.800
And I think that's true for some of my co -authors.

00:55:45.420 --> 00:55:47.719
we're putting out the hey we should pay attention

00:55:47.719 --> 00:55:57.019
to this and think about this um but not so much

00:55:57.019 --> 00:55:59.639
like the methodology component that probably

00:55:59.639 --> 00:56:04.260
everybody wants uh and but it also is attracting

00:56:04.260 --> 00:56:09.630
the interest of of students And I think that

00:56:09.630 --> 00:56:12.210
that's been, and so education is probably one

00:56:12.210 --> 00:56:15.329
of the other biggest components here is educating

00:56:15.329 --> 00:56:19.210
people about the issue, the gap of knowledge

00:56:19.210 --> 00:56:24.670
in the forensic sciences and in forensic anthropology

00:56:24.670 --> 00:56:29.130
and the limits of our methods as well. And so

00:56:29.130 --> 00:56:35.449
I hope in the nearest future that that is part

00:56:35.449 --> 00:56:38.630
of the conversation in the classroom. Because

00:56:38.630 --> 00:56:42.170
that is really where it has to start. Our practicing

00:56:42.170 --> 00:56:44.929
forensic anthropologists are in the classroom

00:56:44.929 --> 00:56:47.710
right now. And so it needs to start with the

00:56:47.710 --> 00:56:50.789
thinking about this. Why should we think about

00:56:50.789 --> 00:56:52.889
this? And when we're talking about methods, it

00:56:52.889 --> 00:56:55.969
should not be biblical. It should not be the

00:56:55.969 --> 00:57:00.170
Bible of this is always correct. It should not

00:57:00.170 --> 00:57:02.750
be that. That is not a correct way of teaching

00:57:02.750 --> 00:57:06.469
for many reasons. That's just not how stats work.

00:57:07.199 --> 00:57:11.480
And that's not how diversity works. And so that

00:57:11.480 --> 00:57:16.420
needs to be, that should stop. But to bring in

00:57:16.420 --> 00:57:21.699
diversity and that there's outliers in forensic

00:57:21.699 --> 00:57:25.099
anthropology are not outliers. Those are people

00:57:25.099 --> 00:57:30.440
that we are responsible for. And that needs to

00:57:30.440 --> 00:57:35.269
be said in the classroom. And this thought process,

00:57:35.429 --> 00:57:38.050
the reason why I think COSAGE is a good start

00:57:38.050 --> 00:57:41.030
here is because it is a tool to think through

00:57:41.030 --> 00:57:47.030
something. It reminds me of the bioarchaeology,

00:57:47.050 --> 00:57:48.989
in bioarchaeology we have the index of care,

00:57:49.150 --> 00:57:51.150
where you're not giving an answer, but you're

00:57:51.150 --> 00:57:53.829
taking information from the environment, from

00:57:53.829 --> 00:57:56.730
culture, from any contextual information you

00:57:56.730 --> 00:57:59.409
can get, and putting it with the skeleton and

00:57:59.409 --> 00:58:04.280
trying to... have a broader interpretation of

00:58:04.280 --> 00:58:07.320
things uh and so it's it's like that it's a think

00:58:07.320 --> 00:58:09.460
through process so that you at least we can get

00:58:09.460 --> 00:58:12.659
our brain moving and in a direction to include

00:58:12.659 --> 00:58:16.980
something broader than just look that our responsibility

00:58:16.980 --> 00:58:22.179
is broader than just looking at um you know morphology

00:58:22.179 --> 00:58:25.500
of the the pelvis and the skull that it's beyond

00:58:25.500 --> 00:58:28.119
that and as an anthropologist like you didn't

00:58:28.119 --> 00:58:30.800
start anthropology to just look at morphology

00:58:30.800 --> 00:58:33.320
of the pelvis and the skull you were you're doing

00:58:33.320 --> 00:58:35.780
forensic anthropology because you have another

00:58:35.780 --> 00:58:37.980
purpose in mind that's broader than that and

00:58:37.980 --> 00:58:40.460
so you should try to remember that and apply

00:58:40.460 --> 00:58:43.559
it further and you come from a biocultural field

00:58:43.559 --> 00:58:48.820
and it's beautiful and use it um it is significant

00:58:50.380 --> 00:58:53.320
I say, do you have any, I guess, like for the

00:58:53.320 --> 00:58:55.460
students that are listening to kind of like echo

00:58:55.460 --> 00:58:57.099
a little bit what you've just said, but like

00:58:57.099 --> 00:59:02.360
any advice for students who maybe want to get

00:59:02.360 --> 00:59:08.500
into this specific topic of work of pros, cons,

00:59:08.880 --> 00:59:13.559
places that, you know, maybe a publication said

00:59:13.559 --> 00:59:15.860
you can't do this because of X, Y, Z, or, you

00:59:15.860 --> 00:59:18.019
know, like, do you have any, I guess, just like.

00:59:18.860 --> 00:59:22.679
advice in any direction for students who want

00:59:22.679 --> 00:59:25.980
to do like research wise there is the the um

00:59:25.980 --> 00:59:29.760
the queering bioanth like library resource that

00:59:29.760 --> 00:59:33.940
we created that's online through unld and it's

00:59:33.940 --> 00:59:35.719
not just there for like oh there's research that's

00:59:35.719 --> 00:59:39.320
done on on variation and sex and gender and in

00:59:39.320 --> 00:59:41.880
all of anthropology and outside of it but also

00:59:41.880 --> 00:59:45.139
for your own like personal edification uh as

00:59:45.139 --> 00:59:48.909
a human that it might be interested in this for

00:59:48.909 --> 00:59:53.349
your own personal reasons whatever they are then

00:59:53.349 --> 00:59:56.909
that you you belong here doing this and I've

00:59:56.909 --> 00:59:59.610
told I've told many a student that's come up

00:59:59.610 --> 01:00:03.110
to me after like I gave a talk about Julie Doe

01:00:03.110 --> 01:00:06.789
and has like been ecstatic and and also hugged

01:00:06.789 --> 01:00:09.940
me at the same time after this my my The biggest

01:00:09.940 --> 01:00:12.159
thing I say is that you have a question about

01:00:12.159 --> 01:00:14.219
it. Like I can try to help you point you in the

01:00:14.219 --> 01:00:17.340
right direction to the right people. But you

01:00:17.340 --> 01:00:20.659
you belong here doing this. And this is important.

01:00:20.840 --> 01:00:26.340
And and and not everybody is from the the older

01:00:26.340 --> 01:00:28.059
school of thinking where that doesn't belong

01:00:28.059 --> 01:00:32.579
in the field. That's that's. the fact that your

01:00:32.579 --> 01:00:34.659
brain's even thinking about this like i think

01:00:34.659 --> 01:00:37.079
is genius like literally i never thought about

01:00:37.079 --> 01:00:39.440
this when i was in college it didn't come up

01:00:39.440 --> 01:00:42.260
into my it's not come into my brain and so when

01:00:42.260 --> 01:00:46.300
i have students bringing up talking about uh

01:00:46.300 --> 01:00:51.780
gender in forensic anthropology um i'm ecstatic

01:00:51.780 --> 01:00:55.119
that they are already abridging that that biocultural

01:00:55.119 --> 01:00:59.670
need It's just innate in anthropology. That's

01:00:59.670 --> 01:01:02.050
what we're doing in anthropology. Just continue

01:01:02.050 --> 01:01:04.610
that, contain it there. And there are people

01:01:04.610 --> 01:01:08.190
that want to do this and are doing this and will

01:01:08.190 --> 01:01:11.869
continue to do it through the ups and downs of

01:01:11.869 --> 01:01:15.809
any politics involved because it's needed more

01:01:15.809 --> 01:01:19.590
than ever. The stats are there for why it's needed.

01:01:21.829 --> 01:01:24.190
And forensic anthropologists are not just there

01:01:24.190 --> 01:01:26.409
for like one major group of people. They're supposed

01:01:26.409 --> 01:01:28.909
to be there for everybody. And so not having

01:01:28.909 --> 01:01:33.110
this information is a detriment. And there's

01:01:33.110 --> 01:01:35.269
tons of research to be done. There's so much.

01:01:35.949 --> 01:01:38.190
But find that community. There are communities

01:01:38.190 --> 01:01:42.300
at every conference that will. support you in

01:01:42.300 --> 01:01:46.619
research and personally um and it's changing

01:01:46.619 --> 01:01:49.019
and it is it's you know depending on where you

01:01:49.019 --> 01:01:51.440
go and there are there are people that can mentor

01:01:51.440 --> 01:01:54.940
you towards you know the positivity of this type

01:01:54.940 --> 01:01:57.659
of research just don't be afraid of it it's there

01:01:57.659 --> 01:02:01.179
it's it's a reality that it exists in in other

01:02:01.179 --> 01:02:04.420
parts of anthropology it's just newer it's newer

01:02:04.420 --> 01:02:08.880
in forensics and so Being new is a little bit

01:02:08.880 --> 01:02:12.300
painful at first. You do have to defend yourself

01:02:12.300 --> 01:02:13.940
a little bit more, but we're trying to do that

01:02:13.940 --> 01:02:16.920
for you. So we're trying to put out those defenses

01:02:16.920 --> 01:02:21.019
to be more stable for the future research of

01:02:21.019 --> 01:02:23.519
it. And there are so many people that I can point

01:02:23.519 --> 01:02:26.840
students to who would love to work with them

01:02:26.840 --> 01:02:31.420
on this sort of topic. No, I definitely appreciate

01:02:31.420 --> 01:02:34.380
it because I know when I first started grad school,

01:02:34.500 --> 01:02:38.869
and so maybe this is... I don't know advice slash

01:02:38.869 --> 01:02:42.710
we've all been through it situation for the students

01:02:42.710 --> 01:02:46.550
that are listening of like I went in and one

01:02:46.550 --> 01:02:48.670
of the topics that I was thinking about doing

01:02:48.670 --> 01:02:52.989
research was this and I got nervous to a certain

01:02:52.989 --> 01:02:56.170
extent to be like well who am I to be talking

01:02:56.170 --> 01:03:01.369
about this as a cisgendered woman who at that

01:03:01.369 --> 01:03:03.869
point in her life had never been outside of Louisiana

01:03:03.869 --> 01:03:06.559
and Let's be real. We all know how Louisiana

01:03:06.559 --> 01:03:10.320
is. So I was just like, who am I, am I supposed

01:03:10.320 --> 01:03:12.380
to be doing this research, even though I have

01:03:12.380 --> 01:03:15.260
the questions? And I think the answer to that

01:03:15.260 --> 01:03:18.099
kind of is yes, because if you were interested

01:03:18.099 --> 01:03:22.559
in it and it comes from a empathetic, genuine

01:03:22.559 --> 01:03:26.300
place, not an otherizing place, I think it to

01:03:26.300 --> 01:03:29.420
like dive into it. I don't know. This is where

01:03:29.420 --> 01:03:31.579
being an anthropologist comes in too, because

01:03:31.579 --> 01:03:33.900
a cultural anthropologist has that problem every

01:03:33.900 --> 01:03:38.650
day. For everything they do. And the answer is

01:03:38.650 --> 01:03:41.949
you bring in the stakeholders. The community

01:03:41.949 --> 01:03:44.889
has to be part of what you're doing. And they

01:03:44.889 --> 01:03:46.429
should always be part of what you're doing. And

01:03:46.429 --> 01:03:49.690
that's true in biological anthropology. We know

01:03:49.690 --> 01:03:52.489
that very strongly now. Like in bioarchaeology.

01:03:52.590 --> 01:03:55.789
The community needs to be aware and part of decisions

01:03:55.789 --> 01:03:58.889
that are making. Same thing in forensic anthropology.

01:03:59.289 --> 01:04:02.869
The community that this impacts should be part

01:04:02.869 --> 01:04:07.460
of the decisions and the voice. Oh, that's blaspheme.

01:04:07.619 --> 01:04:13.920
That is blaspheme. I got into it. Well, not got

01:04:13.920 --> 01:04:19.239
into it, but had a rather lively debate with

01:04:19.239 --> 01:04:23.980
an individual. I won't say who they were for

01:04:23.980 --> 01:04:28.000
just that very reason, because, well, we don't

01:04:28.000 --> 01:04:31.019
ask men, we don't ask women, we don't ask...

01:04:32.700 --> 01:04:36.800
african -americans or anybody else when we do

01:04:36.800 --> 01:04:41.420
research on on any of those topics i just we

01:04:41.420 --> 01:04:45.079
should it's like yeah how well did that go in

01:04:45.079 --> 01:04:47.059
the past doesn't mean you shouldn't do now yeah

01:04:47.059 --> 01:04:51.619
yeah yeah but it was it was someone who's been

01:04:51.619 --> 01:04:53.639
in the field a long time there again you have

01:04:53.639 --> 01:04:57.099
that dividing line between been in the field

01:04:57.099 --> 01:05:02.840
a while and Hasn't been in the field since, you

01:05:02.840 --> 01:05:08.119
know, archaic times. I mean, I wasn't taught

01:05:08.119 --> 01:05:11.940
that in college. Nobody was telling me, like,

01:05:11.960 --> 01:05:14.059
you should involve the community. Nobody was

01:05:14.059 --> 01:05:17.019
doing that. Nope. And when I started, that was

01:05:17.019 --> 01:05:21.000
the same way. As a matter of fact, no, you don't.

01:05:22.019 --> 01:05:25.440
That would bias your research. That would bias

01:05:25.440 --> 01:05:29.199
what you're studying. or shut it down now know

01:05:29.199 --> 01:05:31.559
differently or at least we argue differently

01:05:31.559 --> 01:05:35.380
well i think to a certain extent and i this is

01:05:35.380 --> 01:05:37.159
one of my arguments for bias because that was

01:05:37.159 --> 01:05:40.219
my research is bias isn't inherently negative

01:05:40.219 --> 01:05:43.699
like it's just all biases is saying that it is

01:05:43.699 --> 01:05:46.219
affecting what you're doing that could be a good

01:05:46.219 --> 01:05:49.579
thing that could be a bad thing but it's not

01:05:49.579 --> 01:05:52.619
i think people assume automatically that you're

01:05:52.619 --> 01:05:55.090
like oh bias just means that you're a racist

01:05:55.090 --> 01:05:57.570
homophobe and that's not that's not what it means

01:05:57.570 --> 01:06:00.989
you're like you have to look at the bigger picture

01:06:00.989 --> 01:06:03.010
of like yes everything's affecting everything

01:06:03.010 --> 01:06:08.510
else and not all of that's bad if you're a racist

01:06:08.510 --> 01:06:10.750
homophobe you wouldn't be reflecting on it so

01:06:10.750 --> 01:06:14.710
the bias is like it allows you to reflect facts

01:06:14.710 --> 01:06:21.659
yes so anyways Sam, I want to thank you so much

01:06:21.659 --> 01:06:26.079
for joining us this lovely evening. It's been

01:06:26.079 --> 01:06:30.300
a fascinating conversation. And I want to thank

01:06:30.300 --> 01:06:34.800
our audience for joining us. We will get to,

01:06:34.900 --> 01:06:37.320
we're still working out who our next guest will

01:06:37.320 --> 01:06:40.199
be, but we will let you all know via the wonders

01:06:40.199 --> 01:06:45.679
of the evil that is social media. And if you

01:06:45.679 --> 01:06:47.960
have any ideas, so like if you're listening and

01:06:47.960 --> 01:06:51.280
you're like, I want to hear more about skeletal

01:06:51.280 --> 01:06:53.079
sex assessment or I want to hear more about chromosomes

01:06:53.079 --> 01:06:56.320
or I want to hear more about trauma or, you know,

01:06:56.320 --> 01:06:57.760
like it doesn't necessarily have to be this topic

01:06:57.760 --> 01:07:00.340
in particular. But if you have a specific topic

01:07:00.340 --> 01:07:02.719
in mind that you want to hear about or you have

01:07:02.719 --> 01:07:05.519
someone from the field that you're like, I have

01:07:05.519 --> 01:07:07.460
looked up to this person for so long and I want

01:07:07.460 --> 01:07:09.599
to hear their voice on a podcast just because

01:07:09.599 --> 01:07:11.760
I want to hear their voice, whatever. You can

01:07:11.760 --> 01:07:13.840
always let us know those types of things, too.

01:07:14.840 --> 01:07:19.940
Email us at boneclubpodcast at gmail .com. We'll

01:07:19.940 --> 01:07:22.940
try to get a hold of everybody except for James

01:07:22.940 --> 01:07:28.300
Pekinus and Jane Bytstra. They scare me. I'll

01:07:28.300 --> 01:07:35.739
email them. It's fine. Well. Yeah, it's okay.

01:07:38.340 --> 01:07:41.460
Well, we do thank you all for being here and

01:07:41.460 --> 01:07:44.500
until next time. Thanks for having us on The

01:07:44.500 --> 01:07:47.659
Bone Club. Thank you, guys. And have a wonderful

01:07:47.659 --> 01:07:50.619
Canadian Thanksgiving to our Canadian friends.

01:07:51.239 --> 01:07:55.300
Happy Thanksgiving. Hello, friends. We here at

01:07:55.300 --> 01:07:57.219
The Bone Club understand how difficult it is

01:07:57.219 --> 01:07:59.320
for students to break into the field of forensic

01:07:59.320 --> 01:08:02.699
anthropology. To help with that cause, we have

01:08:02.699 --> 01:08:05.599
decided to monetize in a way by setting up an

01:08:05.599 --> 01:08:09.079
account with Patreon. All proceeds will be donated

01:08:09.079 --> 01:08:11.460
to the anthropology section of the American Academy

01:08:11.460 --> 01:08:14.599
of Forensic Sciences to help alleviate the cost

01:08:14.599 --> 01:08:17.140
of attending an annual scientific conference

01:08:17.140 --> 01:08:21.840
for students. If you can, we have set up four

01:08:21.840 --> 01:08:25.479
membership tiers with patreon .com slash the

01:08:25.479 --> 01:08:29.579
bone club that range from $3 a month to our patrons

01:08:29.579 --> 01:08:34.460
of the bones at $15 a month. We hope some of

01:08:34.460 --> 01:08:37.659
you can join us in this worthy endeavor of breaking

01:08:37.659 --> 01:08:40.600
down the barrier of cost that keeps many students

01:08:40.600 --> 01:08:43.659
away from these important conferences. So if

01:08:43.659 --> 01:08:47.819
you can, please join us at patreon .com slash

01:08:47.819 --> 01:08:51.859
the bone club. Thank you, and may your skeletons

01:08:51.859 --> 01:08:53.300
always be complete.