and welcome back to another episode of The Bone
Club. It's I, Ashley Smith, with Stephanie. Hey,
everyone. And we have a great guest with us today,
Dr. Daniel Westcott from Texas State University.
He's going to be talking with us about decompositional
research facilities and just some of the stuff
that goes on with them. Gestalt that surrounds
those. So we want to welcome you all today. Dr.
Westcott, welcome to the show. I guess the first
question that we wanted to ask is, like with
all the rest of the guests we have, what got
you interested in forensic anthropology? You
have been around the block in this field for
a while. What got you interested in this field?
Okay. Well, first let me say hi to everybody
and thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
So for me, I actually have always been interested
in bones. So the way that I kind of got started
in anthropology was that when I was So I started
out actually as a cabinetmaker. And I then realized
at some point that if I wanted to make any money
in cabinetmaking, I was going to have to start
my own business. So I went to college. And part
of that was to, I took a, I was always interested
in kind of. I didn't really know that much about
anthropology, but I was interested in anthropology.
I had taken an anthropology class in high school.
And so I started taking an anthropology class.
And so before the class, I would hang out in
a little library that was adjacent to the anthropology
department. And one day, one of the biological
anthropologists came in and said, you know, Somebody
brought in some skeletal remains. Is there anybody
here that's interested in looking at them? And
of course, I jumped up and I went in and this
anthropologist's name was Kim Snyder. And so
I went and worked in Kim Snyder's lab. And by,
you know, pretty much by the end of the day,
I changed my nature and kind of never looked
back. I was like, what high school did you go
to that had an anthropology class in high school?
I'm jealous. You know, it's really kind of funny
because I took this anthropology class in high
school. And like I said, I thought it was really
cool. We actually even went on a little excavation
and did some archaeology stuff. And then later
when I was a graduate student, my high school.
teacher actually took a class with me. That's
awesome. Full circle, full circle. Full circle,
yes. We also, by the way, want to welcome one
of the most cutest kitties on the planet to the
show as well. I know. I feel like we should take
a photo of the cat and post it with the recording
just so that everyone can see how adorable. Yes,
this is joy. has decided that she would like
to come and visit Paul. We love all animals.
And you talked how you got into forensic anthropology,
but a lot of your research has actually been
in decomposition. What got you into that? I've
done a decomp... My master's research was in
decomposition. And it's one of those I highly
recommend every anthropologist do once one research
study in that. But I don't know if I could do
two. You know, for me, I mean, it was actually
not something that I originally had a strong
interest in. Part of the part of the reason I
got involved in it is because of the job that
I have. And, you know, that is and it's also,
you know, part of my job is to facilitate research
in forensic taphonomy. And so I've done that.
And as a result, you know, you get, you know,
you see stuff and you get, you know, start asking
questions and realize that, hey, there are things
that could be answered, you know. Especially
multidisciplinary. One of the things that I think
that I've found with decomposition research that
I've been fascinated with is the fact that you
have entomologists and microbiologists and soil
scientists and anthropologists, and we're all
actually trying to answer the same question.
We're just going about it different ways. And
so, you know, a lot of what I'm interested in
is how do we actually combine our skills to do
this? And when do we know when, you know, the
anthropologist is better doing it, when the anthropologist
is doing it better? And, you know, part of that
depends on the decomposition process and everything.
And for me, you know, decomposition, the research
on that, I'm really more interested in the basic
research of it. You know, trying to understand
this, you know, this carry on. this human cadaver
or whatever you want to refer to him as at the
time as this kind of ecological niche that is
being utilized by all kinds of scavengers to
get as much nutrients out of it as they possibly
can in the short term and how that then we can
utilize that data to understand, to reconstruct
crime scenes outdoors, or we can understand post
-mortem interval, or even maybe burial practices
or something from past populations. So that's
how I kind of got started in this. And I've found
it to be a pretty fascinating area of research.
For me, actually, what it was, what led me to
my... master's research at Boston University
was we were doing some just typical readings
that you do at the master's level. And I had
noticed that some of these theories that we held
with sort of time since death and processes that
affect rates of decomposition. were based on
what I'd call faulty studies. Like my master's
research looked at penetrative trauma and the
rate of decomposition. And what led me to that
was there was a study that looked at all these
different factors of decomposition. And one of
them was, hey, if you have penetrative trauma,
it accelerates the rate of decomposition. And
it had an N of 2, a control and an exsanguinated
remains that an autopsy was done on. And I said,
this is not a good study. We need to do an actual
real study. And then as I started doing the research
for that, one of the things that really got me
is this entire time, this entire field we've
studied, we always talk about how pigs are a
great analogous model for human decomposition.
And as I was doing the literature and just following
it, just, all right, this one cites this, this
one cites this, it goes all the way back to an
article by Jerry Pang. And when you read that,
that's not what he said. He was talking about
insect succession. He wasn't talking about the
model itself. And it just became this game of
telephone where we started to go from insect
succession is a pig is a good analogous model
to pig itself is an analogous model. And that
got me just... interested in we have to do more
a much better job of looking at decomposition
and looking at decompositional research and one
of the things I like about Texas State and what
you have at TSU is everything up to that point
seemed to have been done at the University of
Tennessee and that there's nothing knocking UT.
It's, you know, holy altar of forensic anthropology.
But what does Texas State offer that we can't
do at UT? It's every environment changes decomposition,
right? So we have to have those different facilities.
Is that something that TSU offers? Sure. I mean,
to some extent. I mean, you know, I think that
one of the nice things is over the years that
we've gotten to where we actually are getting
some, you know, bigger variety with, you know,
University of North Michigan, for example, which
has got. you know, snow, they like have 127 inches
of snow a year or something like that. So, you
know, pretty much from October to May, they're
covered in snow versus, you know, Tennessee,
which is a hot, humid place where Texas, we were
humid, but we have, you know, really high temperatures.
I mean, this has been a remarkable year, but
normally we have, you know, 30 to 90 days of
over 100 degree weather. And so, you know, just
things like that can make a difference. And part
of it, too, is also just the way, I should say,
the cover of trees and stuff like that. One of
the things that makes a big difference here is
vultures. So, you know, because of the cattle
industry, the history behind all that, you know,
Texas is full of vultures. And pretty much anything
that dies within a few days will be scavenged
by vultures. And that includes human remains
if they're not caged. Which in Tennessee, there
are vultures, but they're not nearly as prevalent.
And they're also, you know, they're a big bird
that is kind of timid. And so they don't really
like to be up underneath trees. cover and stuff.
Not that they wouldn't do it, but they tend to
not prefer that. So all those things make a difference.
And I think just having different facilities
with different ideas and different researchers
coming. And there are things that are always
going to be similar. In some ways, insect activity
is a good example. It doesn't vary a lot from
facility to facility. The timing has more to
do with temperature and things like that. But
there are other factors that affect it. Like
I said, solar radiation is actually one thing
that, for me, I think is an important factor
that a lot of people don't think about in just
the intense sun that we get here in Texas. And
the other thing I think that's really important,
is when you look at i i've seen the tennessee
facility i i think what a lot of people don't
understand particularly general public they hear
ah they have this facility they don't realize
he's kind of dinky it it's it's really really
small and sort of slopes to one side But Texas
State, you have, if I'm not mistaken, a pretty
large facility to work with. Does that offer
an ability to do different types of research?
Yeah, I don't know how much it does types, but
yeah, I mean, we are, it's a lot bigger facility.
And, you know, the difference too is, you know,
Tennessee. Because of the way that, you know,
Bill Bass created it, it is a couple of acres
that are located behind the university hospital.
Where at Texas State, we have 26 acres that are
set aside for the research, but it sets on about
a 4 ,200 -acre ranch. So, you know, the... There's
not a, you know, you don't have the same kind
of activity from the city and all that kind of
stuff going on. And also, you know, you're not
having bodies, which probably has a big effect
on like entomological research. You're not having
bodies that are literally sitting next to each
other all the time. And so if we have somebody
that wants to do research where they have their
body, you know, the... cadaver that they're using
or the cadavers are using set aside that can
be done we've had people that have done research
like specifically looking at vulture activity
where we can build a fence where you know you
can reach it from the sky but you can't get access
to it any other way. And so those are the kind
of research projects that we can do that you
probably can't do at other facilities just because
of the fact that you've got the space to do it.
I have a question for, I guess, in your career
with all the different research that you either
done yourself or have helped students do, I guess,
do you have one project that like you hold dear
to yourself or that like? it surprised you the
result came like it you know i guess saying your
favorite research project is a little odd but
like what when you like think about your career
which project do you think back on with such
joy and stuff like that um i don't know there
there isn't so i get asked this by reporters
all the time like what does the big thing that
you guys have done and that you know it's changed
the world And in reality, it's all the little
things that have changed, you know, made a big
difference in understanding. You know, you were
just talking about, you know, like penetrating,
I mean, trauma. You know, we've had people have
done looking at autopsied remains versus non
-autopsied remains. But we also just had a student
that looked at, does the size of the wound make
a difference? And, you know, she actually found
that if you had like a little one inch, incision,
no flies ever actually came to any of those.
Where if you had a little bit bigger incision,
it made a difference. But so all those kind of
add up in, you know, helping us in our knowledge.
If I had to say one thing, one that's kind of
been, for me, been really interesting recently,
and that is I had a student that just recently
went back and looked at 10 years worth of data.
And so she looked at total body scores and ADD
and looked for patterns that are associated with,
you know, precipitation and, you know, any kind
of thing like that. And what was interesting,
what she found was that the main factor was mean
annual temperature. which tells us that as the
mean annual temperature increases with climate
change, so does decomposition. So those are the
kind of studies that I think that the longitudinal
data that we collect is probably where most of
the real research is going to come from. We have
a student now that's going to be looking at 10
years worth of data looking at you know ai stuff
and you know is there patterns in decomposition
that we don't realize you know so like for for
one example you know if you look at like something
like a total body score one of the things that
that they talk about is the coloration changes
but you know they go from like greenish to a
gray or something like that well we see all kinds
of things like oranges and you know, purples
and all kinds of other colors. And so does that
color make a difference or is it just a color
change, you know? And so I think that's going
to be done by looking at lots of data, big studies
and, you know, lots of data from lots of different
places. And I think that's going to make a big
difference. And so that's the kind of stuff I'm
really excited about. And so a lot of the longitudinal
data that we've been collecting, I think, has
got the greatest potential. I mean, even we've
done stuff for law enforcement where they have
somebody who was diabetic and they're more decomposed
than they expected them to be. Well, does diabetes
play a role? It's pretty hard to do that if you
want to lay out 20 people that are diabetic and
20 people that are not diabetic. But if you go
back to the longitudinal data and look at 800
people, Now you can actually make some real significant
claims about whether it makes a difference or
not. And what are the factors that affect that?
Yeah, no, that totally makes sense. I know when
I first went into grad school, I thought I wanted
to do decomp research and I was like all excited
for it. And I went to like a smaller university
that definitely didn't have a facility of any
kind. And I like went in kind of thinking how
we were talking earlier. I was like, well, I'll
just do it on pigs. It'll be fine. Everything's
great. And then my teacher was just like, oh,
maybe, maybe we change what we're doing here
because I don't think that's going to be all
that helpful. And so it's like definitely really
like, even though I didn't necessarily go into
decomp research, it's always been fascinating
to me to just like see what people come up with
and like just the questions that can be answered
with. that type of like facility of you know
those long -term changes and what can you really
say and what is this random anomaly because you
did a test on two people or whatever so well
you know and that's the thing you know like one
of the things that you also learn is that what
are the limitations of what you can say and you
know i actually frequently get asked you know
by defense lawyers is like, well, you know, we
have this case and they said that the person
died, you know, two months and three days and
12 hours ago or something, you know, something
like that. And a lot of what I am doing is saying,
yeah, even if they wanted to say that, they just
don't have the ability. You know, they don't
have anything to back it. So, which is also important.
I mean, you think about it, if we're in forensic
anthropology, I mean, our purpose is to, you
know, provide as much truth about what happened
at that scene as possible, whether that exonerates
the person that they think is guilty or not.
You know, so. Our job is not to speak to the
criminality of the defendant, but to the victim
itself. Right. Exactly. And. You brought up total
body scores and everything, and I wanted to pick
your brain. It's not one of the questions I actually
wrote down, but I used it in my master's thesis,
and I've always had it, and I've taught it. Accumulated
degree days. Magesi et al., 2005. There's something
about it, because it uses... temperature alone.
And I just have this thing about, there's so
many other factors involved in decomposition.
What's your thoughts? Can we use a formulary
that relies, and I'm not asking you to comment
on that particular paper. But can we use a formulary
that relies on pure temperature? Or do we need
to have one? Or should we try to come up with
one that includes things like humidity data that
does have influence in decomposition? Is there
something that needs to be a bit more encompassing?
And can AI be that? tool that helps us. Yeah,
I mean, you know, I think AI has the potential
to do stuff, but also I think it's the shiny
new item that may or may not have as much potential
in the long run as we think it does. But I agree
with you in that sense. So for me, what I have
found is that total body score is a good way
of standardizing the way we collect data, right?
Whether you use the formula or not. Now, the
formula, I do think, if you really want an accurate
formula, has to include other items. I mean,
you think about it, even if you go back and use
just temperature, but you go back and you find
out, well, the day that... that person you know
based on the the mean add died it was raining
well that affects things because guess what flies
don't like to lay in their bodies when it's raining
you know or it was really windy that day and
you know so there are other factors like that
that are going to have a huge effect um on an
accurate estimation of decomposition. So I think
we have to take that into consideration. But
I also think that that is true with... That's
the difference between having somebody who is
an expert look at the data and interpreting the
postmortem interval versus somebody who just
plugs in the numbers and says, oh, this is the
results. But I mean, that's true if you're looking
at... you know, sex estimation or anything else
like that is that part of what you're supposed
expected to do as an expert is to look at that
data, utilize the methods that are there, but
also realize when those methods are flying to
you, you know, and, or not necessarily lying
to, but you're not giving you the full, full
information. Interpretation. Right. And so that's,
you know, that's part of being the expert. Otherwise,
we could just say, OK, here's the formula. You
know, any anybody on the street can plug in things
and and come up with with the correct results.
You know, and I mean, if you know, if you know,
when you teach classes, you realize that that's
not true because, you know, you get the undergraduates
that you give them exactly the same thing and
they come up with these wildly different answers,
you know. To change the topic a little bit, there
are unfortunately many in society that question
the ethics of having decompositional research
facilities. They argue that the research itself
is desecrating bodies and is unethical, sort
of just on spec. How do you address those ethical
concerns? How do you deal with them? So, first
of all, I think that everybody should be able
to have some say into what happens to their remains
after they die. With us, the way that we deal
with this is that the people that we donate,
they donate specifically to us. They're not donating
to some general anatomical pool or something
like that. So they know what's going to be done
with them, right? Or at least to the knowledge
that they want to know. I mean, you're right.
And this is something that they find important.
And so, you know, that right there takes care
of most of the ethical issues. The other stuff,
if you don't agree with, you know, that dead
bodies should be used for research, well, that's
a different story, right? But it's not associated
with the ethics of... the research itself or
anything like that, because these people have
consented to this. They, and I, yeah, so they,
you know, they have consented to this. This is
something that they want to see done. And like
I said, most of the time they have a really good
understanding of what's going to happen. For
us, we even have, you know, people who are pre
-registered donors that will come into the lab
and we give them tours of the, not the decon
facility, but of the skeletal lab and talk about
what happens to the remains and the processes
that we go through and all that kind of stuff.
And they are thrilled with it. We also, once
we have the remains have been decomposed and
been processed down to a skeleton, the families
can come visit the skeletal remains. And it's
amazing how many families come in. And, you know,
we also keep track of every research project,
every class, anything that the remains are used
in. And so when the families come in, we can
say, look, you know, we can talk about. You know,
like a lot of times I'll come in and bring them
in and I'll be like, okay, there's a broken bone
here. This is what I could tell you about it,
stuff like that. And they'll be like, oh, yeah,
I remember when that happened and, you know,
stuff like that. So it's actually good for them
in that sense, too. But it also, you know, gives
us a little bit more information about the individual
as well. And then we can also talk to them about
all the. research has been done and frequently
they are like oh man you know dad would have
loved that you know that that is something that
really he would have found fascinating you know
um you know and sometimes their only their only
involvement in that research project might even
be that they are the control sample so you know
like we do a lot of research on obesity and so
In every study that we do, if we have a 54 -year
-old obese male, for example, we find a 54 -year
-old non -obese male. And so they may be the
non -obese individual, but they still find that
it's really fascinating that their dad was involved
in that study. How much say do they get in? Do
they get a chance to say, hey, I would like to
be in Research Project 1225A? I'm donating to
the facility. Please use my remains in whichever
research project. My remains would be most appropriate.
That is most people. There are people who specifically
have, you know, Things that they would like to
get done or be a part of. And we will tell them
up front, you know, if it's available, we will
do this. And, you know, one of the things that
we get a lot is vulture research. Because people
say, I would love to be part of a vulture research
project. Well, that's fine as long as there's
a vulture research project going on. But we also,
you know, we do things like we do fire death
investigation. and looking at, you know, thermal
trauma. We've done, you know, we do a lot of
stuff with clandestine remains, for example.
How do you locate clandestine remains using remote
sensing? Those kind of things. And, you know,
in those cases, sometimes we will get people
to say, I don't want to be burned or I don't
want to be buried. Well, we honor that. You know,
if they say that, then we find another project
for them. I think that's pretty rare because
most of them are like, oh, yeah, whatever it
takes, you know. But, you know, they also, so
that's the other thing, too, is that, you know,
you, by law, you really don't have to have them
consent to, like, everything. But we usually
ask, well, we always ask, you know, are you okay
if we do some kind of, you know, destructive
type of analysis? I think you also could get
into what is constructive analysis considering
the fact that they're decomposing. I think that
most people have some kind of idea. Can I explode
you? Can I shoot you with a gun? Something like
that. I would say that 99 % of the people are
more than happy to sign off on that. It's not
just if you don't say something, you know, you're
consenting. They have to actually initial off
on it. So, you know, to me, that all makes it,
takes away the ethical dilemmas of, you know,
you have consent, the bodies are treated with
respect, even, you know, I mean, even if they're
in a study where they're being, you know, burned
or something like that they're being cheated
with respect and they're being you know curated
properly they're being utilized to better the
world and i you know i don't know how more ethical
you could get than that if you i guess i've always
wanted to donate my body that was like definitely
on my i mean it's on my to -do list eventually
to like fill out all the way down the road to
do all the things. Well, I feel I'm like, I should
probably do it before I think about it because
then it'll be too late at that point. But I guess,
have you ever had, I don't want to say like convinced
someone to do it because like that feels unethical,
but like if someone was on the fence and you're
trying to explain the perks, I guess, of body
donation and things like that, do you? Do you
find you try to do those? Or if someone's somewhat
on the fence, it's just like a no -go from there?
Because I know for myself, I was always like,
yep, that's what I'm going to do. I don't need
my body in a cemetery somewhere. I learn from
other people. They can learn from me. It'll be
great. But I know my mom's like, well, if you
do that, if you die before you make that paperwork,
I'm not doing that for you. And I'm like, but
it's my body, I guess. So just like, yeah. So
there's a couple of things with that. One is,
no, I would never try to, if they're on the fence,
then I tell them that, you know, it's time for
you to go back and talk to your family and think
about this longer. And, you know, you always
have the opportunity to do it later. The other
thing is, is that for people that want to do
it, I always tell them it's really important
that you talk to your family because You may
want to do this, but if they don't call us, we
don't know that you died. It's not like we go
through the obituaries every day and go, oh,
there's John Smith. Let's go get him, right?
So, you know, everybody has to be kind of in
agreement with this. And I think it is, you know,
like a lot of things with life. But, you know,
I think, you know, a lot of times Americans like
to avoid talking about death. But, you know,
I think it's really important that you do talk
about what you would like to have done. Because
if you don't talk about what you would like to
have done, then you're totally reliant on your
family to decide. Right. So with that being said.
Right. Organ donation, anything like that. Right.
I mean, you could be you could sign up as an
organ donor. And if you're the first thing that
will happen when you die is they'll contact you
and say contact the family and they'll say, you
know, John Smith is your dad or whatever is an
organ donor. Do you consent to that? And if the
family says no, they're done. They won't do it.
Right. Yes. So you have to talk to them ahead
of time. And I know this because I used to work
in an emergency room, you know, in the middle
of the night. And it was very common that we'd
have people that die and their families would
say, I know that he really wanted that, but I
just can't bear to think about him being cut
open. And that was the end of it. They would
not proceed with it. And that's the same thing
here. I mean, you know, if it's not something
that they. want to do. But the other thing I
should say is that also one of the parts of being
ethical part of that is that we also do not accept
next -to -kin donations from people who've been
estranged from their family members. Right? And
there's actually a couple reasons. One is that
we don't know that that's what that person wanted.
And we don't want to be the dumping ground. because
you don't want to pay for dad's funeral, right?
Second of all, they usually don't know anything
about the person, which means that the paperwork
you get is basically their name and social security
number, and that's about it, which is not useful
either for the research purposes. So there's
a lot of differences behind that. We don't take
unclaimed bodies. We definitely don't take unidentified
remains. So in Texas, we have a justice peace
system. We frequently get calls from justice
peace that say we have unclaimed remains of so
-and -so, and they become the legal next of kin,
but we still won't accept their remains because
that's not what we want. Most of our next to
kin donations are from people who we get a call
from the family that says, you know, my dad just
died and he is a living donor. And you say, well,
we don't have any paperwork on him. He's not
a living donor. And they're like, we know he's
a living donor because we have the paperwork
right here. And it's like, yeah, you have the
paperwork because your dad never actually sent
it in. Right. But it tells us that dad was. At
least seriously thinking about that, you know.
And then the other ones that we get that are
next to kin donations are usually where they
donated, for example, to a medical school. And
then upon death, the medical school rejected
them. Because medical schools have very, very
strict criteria as far as who they will accept.
And so a lot of times the families will say,
you know, we know that they wanted to donate
to a medical school, but we also know that it's...
but more important to them that they get donated
to somebody than it is to, you know, just be
cremated or buried or something like that. So
they're following the wishes of their loved ones,
which I, you know, there again, I don't think
you can get any more better consent or more ethical
treatment than trying to do something of that
nature. If you had, like, I guess with the paperwork
that, goes into it because i have not looked
into it fully yet but uh what type of information
do you request from the living donor about their
like life history i guess because you're saying
if they were estranged maybe they only have their
name and their social security number what other
type of information so i know for myself what
should i be tracking in my own body so so there
are two sides to the paperwork So one is that
when a person dies and donates their bodies to
us, we become basically the funeral. We initiate
the death certificate and stuff like that. So
there is a component to that that we ask names,
a security number, military service, things like
that, that have to go on to the death certificate.
That information is... never released to, for
example, researchers. You'd never have a researcher
ask for the name or their social security number
or anything like that, obviously. That is totally
for the death certificate side of it. For the
research side of it, we ask everything from medical
histories to activity levels to, you know, Weight
difference, like if we ask, have you been obese?
If you're obese, how long have you been obese?
Does your weight fluctuate a lot? Things that
would affect skeletal remains, but also affect
decomposition to some extent, even. What kind
of medications were you taking? That really has
a big effect on decomposition, depending on the
medications they were on. You know, where did
you live at different stages of your life? So
we usually ask, you know, where did you live
the first 20 years of your life? Where did you
live the last 20 years of your life? So if we
want to do like isotope analysis or something
like that, we have that kind of information.
We ask, you know, questions about smoking and
diabetes. and, you know, other things like that
that some researchers are interested in. And
then there are things that we realize that, you
know, we've been asking this for years and no
researchers ever used it. And so we'll stop collecting
that data and switch to something that, because
a lot of times we'll get researchers that are,
you know, what you'll find is that multiple people
call you and say, do you have data on this? And
you're like, oh. That'd be a good thing to collect,
but we don't. And so after a while, you're like,
okay, well, let's drop this. So one of the questions
that we have for years that we've had is, do
you have tattoos? Well, I can look at a picture
and tell whether you have a tattoo or not. I
don't really need you to answer yes or no on
that, right? So it's not necessarily useful information.
And so let's ask something, you know, more appropriate
that might be, you know, might be better for
researchers that are especially, I mean, you
think about a lot of what we're after is what
is going to affect the decomposition. And then
later on, what is going to affect skeletal morphology?
Because that's what most anthropologists are
interested in, you know, those two sides. And
so. Trying to improve, you know, what is asked
and what is collected and then realizing that,
okay, if nobody's using this data, it's a great
thing to, maybe it's, or maybe it's not a great
thing to continue to collect. And then you also
always have to weigh this with the costs that
are associated with collecting that data. So
like, for example, one of the things that I would
love to have is a CT scan. a whole body CT scan
of every donor that comes in. Well, it's outrageously
expensive. And so is it worth the data or not?
And, you know, I mean, I think depending on your
research project, you could argue that it is
or isn't. But you'll have to weigh that with,
okay, but how do we come up with that money to
do that kind of research? Collaborations. Yes,
collaborations. Do you have a certain catchment
area that you work with? I mean, because just
thinking about it, the cool warm cycle of remains
would affect decomposition if you start looking
out beyond a certain geographical area, would
it not? I'm sorry, I don't know if I'm following
your question exactly. Yeah, I just, for where
you have donations, donors, there are certain
geographical area you work with, because if you
have donations from somebody, say, if I was on
your donor list, I'm in Memphis, Tennessee, I
die, my family decides to send my remains to
you, they'd have to be cooled. before they get
to you otherwise there'd be some form of decomposition
before it reaches you that would would that not
affect ultimately the research that y 'all are
doing because the starting point is now off yeah
and that's that's always i mean even if you're
working within the local region you know that
is always the case you don't a lot of times you
uh have no You know, you have somebody who dies
and they may, well, matter of fact, I mean, you
know, we may be get contacted by hospice or something
like that within minutes after somebody dies.
And they say, you know, so -and -so is a donor,
living donor, and they have just passed away.
And you also knew that they were getting ready
to pass away, you know. So everybody's ready
and you go get them. There are other people who
they die and they call you and they say, you
know, John Smith was a living donor. He died
yesterday morning. You know, that's always going
to be a factor in the, I mean, in taphonomic
research. And you have to take that into consideration.
For us, too, I mean, other. benefit is that we're
interested in skeletal research as well. And
so it doesn't affect that aspect of it, right?
So it depends on the research protocol that the
person is going to be used in. It may be that
if you don't get contacted for a day or two,
that they just aren't part of that study. They
have to be put into a different study. You know,
that you're only interested in the people who
died almost immediately. This is always going
to be a bias or a factor that affects research
at a decomposition facility is that you're never
getting somebody who, like, they just murdered,
you know, and they're laying out in the field
30 seconds after they died. And so, you know,
you're never going to have that perfect thing.
And that's part of understanding that process
and knowing the limitations of what you can and
can't say. Yeah, but can you mitigate that by
having, or do you mitigate that by having sort
of a region by which you have donations? Or do
you take donations from all across the U .S.?
We will accept donations from all across the
U .S. Most of our donors are within 100 miles
of us. Okay. And what we have found is that,
you know, and this is true with the other facilities,
is that, you know, like if I have somebody who
call, you know, family that contacts me and they
say, you know, we have a loved one and they are
in Houston and they just died. I always say,
well, contact Sam Houston University because,
you know, they're closer to you. Or, you know,
you have somebody that dies, you know, in Colorado,
and I'll tell them, you know, contact this facility
in Colorado because they're a lot closer and
they can get your remains a lot sooner and everything
else. There are some families that know, I mean,
or some people that are like, you know, no, I
was a Texas State, you know, graduate. I wanted
to go to Texas State. And they know in that case,
you know. You know, you have to take that into
consideration. And you try to limit, you know,
the problems associated with that as much as
you can by putting them in cold storage or, you
know, something of that nature. And, you know,
that's the other thing, too, is that a lot of
research that's done, especially early on, was
to actually look at factors like that. Like,
if you froze a body, does that affect the research
you're doing? You know, if you, You know, if
they've been on autopsy, does that affect the
research you're doing? And in some cases, it's
a definite yes. In some cases, it's like, no,
that's not going to affect the questions that
I'm asking. And you have to always take that
into consideration. Recently, I've noticed there's
been a number of studies, because I had to do
it for my doctoral research, a number of studies
that have found there's a rather wide disconnect
between the number of people that say donating
for anatomical research is a good thing for society
versus those that actually do donate. Do you
find that with your research, with the research
at these facilities, that there's a... large
number of people that would say yes this is a
great thing but joe blow over here should be
the one that donates i it's just it's not for
me sure we get that we get that all the time
i mean you have people that are just you know
and you know that's the truth the thing is that
with being associated with a deconcision or super
fascinated and want to know every detail and
then there are people who think that what you're
doing is really important and cool but they don't
want you to tell them anything about it and then
of course there are those people that just find
you know just say that it's just not you know
i say for like a lot of our audience that listens
to this are undergrad students and You know,
a lot of times you don't necessarily get the
opportunity in high school and things like that
to see a dead body or see decomposition and things
like that. Do you, I guess, like in your programs
or when giving tours or things like that, do
you have things that you say or do to prepare
people for what they're about to see and do?
Or do you find that it... you won't bring some
like a student on unless they've already shown
that they can handle those types of things because
i know i mean like i work with a lot of people
and a lot of anthropologists and some people
just don't like quote unquote the fleshy bits
at all um but i think most people have a an idea
whether that's going to be true for them or not
there there are incidents that, you know, where
I had a graduate student one time, for example,
that we were, I was actually looking at some
pictures from a game camera that we had on a
body and realized that when she would go out
and take pictures of them, she would close her
eyes and look away. And so it was like, this
is probably not for you. And I think that's an
important part of it, too. You know, I think
most people have less of a reaction than they
think they're going to when they actually go
out to a facility. For a number of reasons, but
I think it's not as bad as I think it's going
to be. But I also tell people, you know, it's
something that you really need to think about
as far as, like, if you... like with law enforcement,
because of the position that they're in and stuff
like that, a lot of times I will, you know, we
will give, you know, tours to law enforcement
groups or something like that. And I always tell
them, think about what it is that you're going
to be doing because you can't unsee this, right?
However, most of the time, what these are people
that are getting. are going to be in a field
that they're going to see much worse. Anyhow.
So if anything, it's preparing them a little
bit for it. I'd say a couple episodes ago, we
actually talked about vicarious traumas and things
like that, which I think kind of along the same
vein of, you think you're prepared and everything's
kind of fine, but then maybe it's not. Do you
at the university have any programs? to try to
help mitigate that on the back end if people
aren't as okay as they thought they were with
the type of research they're doing? We don't
specifically for researchers because, you know,
I mean, most of them are a lot. Well, a lot of
our researchers are coming from other institutions
or something like that. So we do for. for at
least for a while, I know that the students had
a group that would meet occasionally and talk
about, it wasn't, and what they actually found
was not so much talking about like the cadavers
out of the facility, but was going out on forensic
cases where, you know, you can see some pretty
terrible things that people do to each other.
Or, you know, going through, you know, burn cases,
you know, stuff like that. So, There's that.
And then, of course, most universities have counseling
available to students, and we always encourage
that. But I guess the center itself doesn't have
anything specific like that, except for the fact
that we've all been there, so there are a lot
of people to talk to. And, you know, what I find
is that it may be that a student is not comfortable
talking to me, but they're comfortable talking
to, you know, one of the other staff or one of
the other students or something like that. And
so usually we can direct people to get the help
that they want. I don't necessarily mean that
they need, but that they want. Go ahead, Steph.
No, you're good. Go ahead. One of the questions
that I have is, when I was doing my master's
research at Boston University, we have a facility,
or they had a facility at the time, that they
were trying to start up with human remains. But
the university's president at the time was, foot
down, this was not going to happen. And a large
portion of that was NIMBY. They were terrified
of NIMBY. Not in my backyard. Now, I know your
facility is part of a larger ranch, but do you
see that often with these types of facilities
where, much like with donations, They're excited
for that. People see the need for these facilities,
but, you know, they need to be in the middle
of the desert somewhere way out where no one
exists. I would say yes and no. But, you know,
part of that. Well, so I'll give you a little
background. So I actually went to one time when
they were opening a facility. I won't talk about
where I actually went to like a town hall meeting
and stuff like that. And, you know, there were
a lot of people. And I remember one guy saying,
for example, he's like, you know, I used to live
next to one of these facilities. You could spell
it three miles away, which is absolutely not
true. You know, you know, so. Yes, there are
those aspects of it that it's just like I don't
want it in my backyard. What we have found is
that we are as transparent as we can. And not
only transparent, but I go out of my way to do
like when, you know, if we have a reporter in
San Marcos, which is where, you know. Texas state
staff that calls me and says, we would like to
do a, you know, a story on this. I jumped to
it. And why is that? Because I want the people
of San Marcos to know what happens to bodies
out there. Right. I don't, what I don't want
is them saying, Oh, I wonder what they do with
those bodies out there, you know, and then, you
know, they can go from, you know, all kinds of
conspiracy theories and everything else, right?
If they know what's happening, they can either
agree with it or disagree with it, but they know
what's happening. And they also, you know, I
mean, like I said, we are a big facility, so
it makes it a little more difficult than, you
know, some of the smaller facilities that are
more, you know, centrally located or something
like that. But they realize that, you know, they
can't smell it and the vultures aren't all over
their houses and the vulture the one of the things
that we get all the time is oh vultures are going
to carry the bones and drop them in my yard or
something like that and after a while they realize
that that's not true and you also can talk to
them about the fact that you know vultures actually
don't carry off bones at all and the research
behind that and you know so actually the other
one we get a lot is associated with oh the vultures
are eating the dead people and they're flying
over and roosting in our trees so and a lot of
that is just providing the education and And
also treating it as that's a legitimate, you
know, concern. Here's the research that's been
done on that. And that's why we are not concerned
about it. And if we were concerned about it,
trust me, we wouldn't be doing it, right? We
also get this with groundwater. And so, like,
we've done research that, you know, it's like,
okay, that's a legitimate thing. Maybe the body,
the fluids are seeping down to the ground and
reaching the groundwater. well we can do studies
to look at how far does that decomp fluid actually
go in the ground and you know where are the aquifers
and relationship to that and all that kind of
stuff so you know that i think it's you have
to you have to take their their concerns seriously
but you know usually when you show them that
you have thought about this and You've mitigated
any risks of that, then they're usually fine.
There's one other question that's society -based,
and I know everybody in the field is going to
pelt me with bricks for saying it, but I have
to ask. Society loves the term body farm. We
all in this field run from it like it's... diversion,
this thing. But why is that? Why is that on our
end? And how did that term get started and stick
in society? So the term comes from Patricia Cornwell,
a novel writer. That's where it comes from. And
so in that case, If you want to talk about the
body farm, the body farm is the University of
Tennessee. All the rest of them are taphonomy
facilities. As a matter of fact, we have a donor
that always argues that we should be called the
body ranch, not the body farm. I think probably
the reason the anthropologists are so against
the term, I guess, is mainly just because it
has kind of a disrespect maybe to it a little
bit. But I don't know if that's necessarily true
either. But, you know, I mean, first of all,
we're not farming bodies, you know, so it's not
accurate in that sense. And I think as scientists,
you tend to be like, you know, you try to use
accurate terminology. So that's part of the thing,
too. But I think that, you know, I guess I probably
shouldn't speak for the University of Tennessee,
but my understanding is that they've actually
kind of gone with it now. And they're willing
to say, we are the body farm. And, you know,
I think, you know, in that sense, it's true.
And like I said, we never use the term ourselves.
But I also realized that, you know, there is
never going to be a reporter that doesn't use
it, for example. You know, even if you say to
them, we never use the body farm and we would
prefer that you don't. The first thing will be,
you know, Dr. Westcott says that they don't use
the term body farm and they prefer that we don't.
But at the body farm. I think some of that is
probably, I mean, similar to, like, any time
I try to explain my job to anyone who doesn't
know what anthropology is, I'll, like, explain
it. And they'll be like, I think I understand
that. And I'll be like, you seen the show Bones?
And then they're like, oh, I get it. And so it's
like, even though you're like, that's not what
I do, but you get kind of what's happening. And
so I feel like using terms like the body farm,
people are. You can be like, it's not this, it's
not this, it's not this. But the second you say
body farm, they're like, oh, I know what you're
talking about. And then everything clicks. Exactly.
Yes. And we're coming up on the hour here. And
I do have one last question, though. We have,
like we said, we have a number of undergraduate
students. And for those undergraduate students
out there, if they are considering conducting
some sort of decompositional research what's
some piece of advice that you have for them i
know like for myself i'd recommend reading some
of that older research trying to find out what
gospel theories are um a little bit on the weak
side but also make sure you have a strong stomach
what are some of the the wisdom that you would
give undergraduate research uh uh students when
it comes to decompositional research you know
so i i think you know one of the things is that
you know things have been decomposing you know
forever and um but it's amazing how little we
know about decomposition and so one of the things
that i I always tell people is what you want
to do is do research that helps you understand
these processes and then you can apply them.
One of the problems that I see a lot of times
is people want to, it's like, I'm going to come
up with a method for estimating the postmortem
interval. Well, you don't even understand the
postmortem interval yet. So start with the basics.
Ask some very straightforward. Questions that
that you can get data on sufficient enough data
to actually answer. Right. And then that will
lead you to your next question and your next
questions and things like that. But I think that
a lot of times people try to start out with the
big thing and that's you're never going to get
it there. I mean, that's true. Not only for undergraduates.
I mean, I see. I see. people in the profession
that do that. And, you know, they come in, they're
like, we're going to do this. And I'm like, you
don't even understand the basics of it. Why don't
you start with how does this even work? Well,
Dr. Westcott, with that, I want to thank you
so much for joining us this evening. It's been
a great pleasure. I have learned a lot. Same.
I mean, this is definitely a treat for me because
I don't. get to do decomp stuff very often. Well,
thank you very much. I very much enjoyed talking
to both of you. If you're ever in Central Texas,
let me know. We'll give you a little tour or
something. I'll get the paperwork rolling to
actually do the things that I want to do. I am
happy to email you the paperwork. I've often
told my family and friends, if I drop dead, just
toss me in the woods and watch me rot. No, see,
I'm like, blow me up, catch me on fire, throw
me out of a plane, I don't care. Do something
cool. Along the same lines of emails, though.
Do you care if we, along with posting of the
podcast, if we put out maybe your work email
or something, so if any of our listeners have
questions, they can reach out to you as well?
Sure. More than happy. Perfect. I always try
to answer everybody's emails, so I will do that.
Sometimes, you know. I'm a little slow and sometimes
I'm really quick. But one of the things I will
say to people about emails, if you email me and
I don't answer you within a certain period, please
email me again. Because if it gets way down on
my list, then, you know, it may take me a while.
But, you know, a lot of times what I may do is
just say, this is the best person for you to
talk to about this. You know, they have more
expertise or something of that nature. Perfect.
Well, we appreciate you being here for sure.
And we thank everyone for listening. You know,
every week we try to, or every week, ooh, no,
every month we try to get more people on. And
so if anyone listening has... found interest
in DCOMP, if you want us to bring on more to
talk about DCOMP or even more towards the taphonomy
side of this type of research, or if you have
other questions that you want us to try to get
answered, just email us and we can try to set
up some other interviews to answer those types
of questions. Ashley, do you have anything you
want to say? No. Jenna, sorry she couldn't be
here. She's actually doing some real adulting.
She's closing on a house. So thanks for joining
us this week on The Bone Club. We'll be back
in a few weeks with Jessica Campbell on cold
cases. All right. Well, thank you again. Thanks,
everyone. Have a nice evening. All right. Hello,
friends. We here at The Bone Club understand
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