WEBVTT 00:00:41.289 --> 00:00:43.469 and welcome back to another episode of The Bone 00:00:43.469 --> 00:00:49.009 Club. It's I, Ashley Smith, with Stephanie. Hey, 00:00:49.030 --> 00:00:52.310 everyone. And we have a great guest with us today, 00:00:52.509 --> 00:00:55.289 Dr. Daniel Westcott from Texas State University. 00:00:55.310 --> 00:00:58.649 He's going to be talking with us about decompositional 00:00:58.649 --> 00:01:05.569 research facilities and just some of the stuff 00:01:05.569 --> 00:01:10.420 that goes on with them. Gestalt that surrounds 00:01:10.420 --> 00:01:16.500 those. So we want to welcome you all today. Dr. 00:01:16.760 --> 00:01:23.340 Westcott, welcome to the show. I guess the first 00:01:23.340 --> 00:01:27.420 question that we wanted to ask is, like with 00:01:27.420 --> 00:01:30.819 all the rest of the guests we have, what got 00:01:30.819 --> 00:01:34.239 you interested in forensic anthropology? You 00:01:34.239 --> 00:01:36.659 have been around the block in this field for 00:01:36.659 --> 00:01:39.319 a while. What got you interested in this field? 00:01:39.939 --> 00:01:42.560 Okay. Well, first let me say hi to everybody 00:01:42.560 --> 00:01:45.000 and thank you for having me. I appreciate it. 00:01:45.980 --> 00:01:52.719 So for me, I actually have always been interested 00:01:52.719 --> 00:01:59.180 in bones. So the way that I kind of got started 00:01:59.180 --> 00:02:05.280 in anthropology was that when I was So I started 00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:11.259 out actually as a cabinetmaker. And I then realized 00:02:11.259 --> 00:02:13.860 at some point that if I wanted to make any money 00:02:13.860 --> 00:02:15.800 in cabinetmaking, I was going to have to start 00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:20.979 my own business. So I went to college. And part 00:02:20.979 --> 00:02:25.800 of that was to, I took a, I was always interested 00:02:25.800 --> 00:02:28.879 in kind of. I didn't really know that much about 00:02:28.879 --> 00:02:30.900 anthropology, but I was interested in anthropology. 00:02:30.919 --> 00:02:34.280 I had taken an anthropology class in high school. 00:02:34.659 --> 00:02:39.060 And so I started taking an anthropology class. 00:02:39.199 --> 00:02:41.639 And so before the class, I would hang out in 00:02:41.639 --> 00:02:46.099 a little library that was adjacent to the anthropology 00:02:46.099 --> 00:02:52.240 department. And one day, one of the biological 00:02:52.240 --> 00:02:55.150 anthropologists came in and said, you know, Somebody 00:02:55.150 --> 00:02:57.830 brought in some skeletal remains. Is there anybody 00:02:57.830 --> 00:03:00.449 here that's interested in looking at them? And 00:03:00.449 --> 00:03:05.270 of course, I jumped up and I went in and this 00:03:05.270 --> 00:03:08.710 anthropologist's name was Kim Snyder. And so 00:03:08.710 --> 00:03:13.210 I went and worked in Kim Snyder's lab. And by, 00:03:13.370 --> 00:03:15.469 you know, pretty much by the end of the day, 00:03:15.569 --> 00:03:18.870 I changed my nature and kind of never looked 00:03:18.870 --> 00:03:27.169 back. I was like, what high school did you go 00:03:27.169 --> 00:03:29.610 to that had an anthropology class in high school? 00:03:29.629 --> 00:03:32.870 I'm jealous. You know, it's really kind of funny 00:03:32.870 --> 00:03:36.009 because I took this anthropology class in high 00:03:36.009 --> 00:03:37.610 school. And like I said, I thought it was really 00:03:37.610 --> 00:03:39.710 cool. We actually even went on a little excavation 00:03:39.710 --> 00:03:43.469 and did some archaeology stuff. And then later 00:03:43.469 --> 00:03:49.750 when I was a graduate student, my high school. 00:03:51.740 --> 00:03:55.639 teacher actually took a class with me. That's 00:03:55.639 --> 00:03:59.060 awesome. Full circle, full circle. Full circle, 00:03:59.139 --> 00:04:03.340 yes. We also, by the way, want to welcome one 00:04:03.340 --> 00:04:06.319 of the most cutest kitties on the planet to the 00:04:06.319 --> 00:04:08.819 show as well. I know. I feel like we should take 00:04:08.819 --> 00:04:11.659 a photo of the cat and post it with the recording 00:04:11.659 --> 00:04:15.379 just so that everyone can see how adorable. Yes, 00:04:15.379 --> 00:04:19.550 this is joy. has decided that she would like 00:04:19.550 --> 00:04:23.050 to come and visit Paul. We love all animals. 00:04:25.370 --> 00:04:31.649 And you talked how you got into forensic anthropology, 00:04:31.769 --> 00:04:35.490 but a lot of your research has actually been 00:04:35.490 --> 00:04:42.310 in decomposition. What got you into that? I've 00:04:42.310 --> 00:04:45.149 done a decomp... My master's research was in 00:04:45.149 --> 00:04:49.029 decomposition. And it's one of those I highly 00:04:49.029 --> 00:04:53.110 recommend every anthropologist do once one research 00:04:53.110 --> 00:04:57.110 study in that. But I don't know if I could do 00:04:57.110 --> 00:05:03.470 two. You know, for me, I mean, it was actually 00:05:03.470 --> 00:05:06.889 not something that I originally had a strong 00:05:06.889 --> 00:05:09.750 interest in. Part of the part of the reason I 00:05:09.750 --> 00:05:12.490 got involved in it is because of the job that 00:05:12.490 --> 00:05:16.040 I have. And, you know, that is and it's also, 00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:18.680 you know, part of my job is to facilitate research 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:23.920 in forensic taphonomy. And so I've done that. 00:05:24.139 --> 00:05:26.699 And as a result, you know, you get, you know, 00:05:26.720 --> 00:05:30.779 you see stuff and you get, you know, start asking 00:05:30.779 --> 00:05:33.600 questions and realize that, hey, there are things 00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:37.829 that could be answered, you know. Especially 00:05:37.829 --> 00:05:40.310 multidisciplinary. One of the things that I think 00:05:40.310 --> 00:05:42.870 that I've found with decomposition research that 00:05:42.870 --> 00:05:47.529 I've been fascinated with is the fact that you 00:05:47.529 --> 00:05:50.829 have entomologists and microbiologists and soil 00:05:50.829 --> 00:05:54.069 scientists and anthropologists, and we're all 00:05:54.069 --> 00:05:56.009 actually trying to answer the same question. 00:05:56.129 --> 00:05:59.029 We're just going about it different ways. And 00:05:59.029 --> 00:06:02.529 so, you know, a lot of what I'm interested in 00:06:02.529 --> 00:06:05.209 is how do we actually combine our skills to do 00:06:05.209 --> 00:06:08.360 this? And when do we know when, you know, the 00:06:08.360 --> 00:06:10.779 anthropologist is better doing it, when the anthropologist 00:06:10.779 --> 00:06:13.600 is doing it better? And, you know, part of that 00:06:13.600 --> 00:06:16.439 depends on the decomposition process and everything. 00:06:16.939 --> 00:06:20.939 And for me, you know, decomposition, the research 00:06:20.939 --> 00:06:24.240 on that, I'm really more interested in the basic 00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:27.959 research of it. You know, trying to understand 00:06:27.959 --> 00:06:35.129 this, you know, this carry on. this human cadaver 00:06:35.129 --> 00:06:37.829 or whatever you want to refer to him as at the 00:06:37.829 --> 00:06:45.069 time as this kind of ecological niche that is 00:06:45.069 --> 00:06:50.170 being utilized by all kinds of scavengers to 00:06:50.170 --> 00:06:53.269 get as much nutrients out of it as they possibly 00:06:53.269 --> 00:06:57.949 can in the short term and how that then we can 00:06:57.949 --> 00:07:01.170 utilize that data to understand, to reconstruct 00:07:01.170 --> 00:07:05.209 crime scenes outdoors, or we can understand post 00:07:05.209 --> 00:07:09.050 -mortem interval, or even maybe burial practices 00:07:09.050 --> 00:07:13.230 or something from past populations. So that's 00:07:13.230 --> 00:07:18.290 how I kind of got started in this. And I've found 00:07:18.290 --> 00:07:20.889 it to be a pretty fascinating area of research. 00:07:22.250 --> 00:07:26.269 For me, actually, what it was, what led me to 00:07:26.269 --> 00:07:28.939 my... master's research at Boston University 00:07:28.939 --> 00:07:35.120 was we were doing some just typical readings 00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:40.399 that you do at the master's level. And I had 00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:45.680 noticed that some of these theories that we held 00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:50.800 with sort of time since death and processes that 00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:56.220 affect rates of decomposition. were based on 00:07:56.220 --> 00:08:02.759 what I'd call faulty studies. Like my master's 00:08:02.759 --> 00:08:05.920 research looked at penetrative trauma and the 00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:09.519 rate of decomposition. And what led me to that 00:08:09.519 --> 00:08:12.240 was there was a study that looked at all these 00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:16.160 different factors of decomposition. And one of 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:20.079 them was, hey, if you have penetrative trauma, 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:24.379 it accelerates the rate of decomposition. And 00:08:24.379 --> 00:08:30.600 it had an N of 2, a control and an exsanguinated 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:36.080 remains that an autopsy was done on. And I said, 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:41.820 this is not a good study. We need to do an actual 00:08:41.820 --> 00:08:45.379 real study. And then as I started doing the research 00:08:45.379 --> 00:08:48.620 for that, one of the things that really got me 00:08:48.620 --> 00:08:53.379 is this entire time, this entire field we've 00:08:53.379 --> 00:08:57.750 studied, we always talk about how pigs are a 00:08:57.750 --> 00:09:02.649 great analogous model for human decomposition. 00:09:04.049 --> 00:09:07.509 And as I was doing the literature and just following 00:09:07.509 --> 00:09:09.350 it, just, all right, this one cites this, this 00:09:09.350 --> 00:09:12.429 one cites this, it goes all the way back to an 00:09:12.429 --> 00:09:17.090 article by Jerry Pang. And when you read that, 00:09:17.250 --> 00:09:21.730 that's not what he said. He was talking about 00:09:21.730 --> 00:09:26.500 insect succession. He wasn't talking about the 00:09:26.500 --> 00:09:30.159 model itself. And it just became this game of 00:09:30.159 --> 00:09:35.320 telephone where we started to go from insect 00:09:35.320 --> 00:09:39.500 succession is a pig is a good analogous model 00:09:39.500 --> 00:09:48.080 to pig itself is an analogous model. And that 00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:54.480 got me just... interested in we have to do more 00:09:54.480 --> 00:10:00.960 a much better job of looking at decomposition 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:05.740 and looking at decompositional research and one 00:10:05.740 --> 00:10:08.960 of the things I like about Texas State and what 00:10:08.960 --> 00:10:14.299 you have at TSU is everything up to that point 00:10:14.299 --> 00:10:16.379 seemed to have been done at the University of 00:10:16.379 --> 00:10:20.200 Tennessee and that there's nothing knocking UT. 00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:24.019 It's, you know, holy altar of forensic anthropology. 00:10:24.679 --> 00:10:34.659 But what does Texas State offer that we can't 00:10:34.659 --> 00:10:43.019 do at UT? It's every environment changes decomposition, 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:47.960 right? So we have to have those different facilities. 00:10:49.259 --> 00:10:56.360 Is that something that TSU offers? Sure. I mean, 00:10:56.379 --> 00:10:59.059 to some extent. I mean, you know, I think that 00:10:59.059 --> 00:11:00.960 one of the nice things is over the years that 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:02.799 we've gotten to where we actually are getting 00:11:02.799 --> 00:11:05.759 some, you know, bigger variety with, you know, 00:11:05.759 --> 00:11:10.120 University of North Michigan, for example, which 00:11:10.120 --> 00:11:14.320 has got. you know, snow, they like have 127 inches 00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:17.360 of snow a year or something like that. So, you 00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:20.179 know, pretty much from October to May, they're 00:11:20.179 --> 00:11:24.860 covered in snow versus, you know, Tennessee, 00:11:24.980 --> 00:11:29.519 which is a hot, humid place where Texas, we were 00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:33.679 humid, but we have, you know, really high temperatures. 00:11:33.720 --> 00:11:37.039 I mean, this has been a remarkable year, but 00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:41.350 normally we have, you know, 30 to 90 days of 00:11:41.350 --> 00:11:45.929 over 100 degree weather. And so, you know, just 00:11:45.929 --> 00:11:49.289 things like that can make a difference. And part 00:11:49.289 --> 00:11:54.470 of it, too, is also just the way, I should say, 00:11:54.549 --> 00:11:57.929 the cover of trees and stuff like that. One of 00:11:57.929 --> 00:11:59.870 the things that makes a big difference here is 00:11:59.870 --> 00:12:04.269 vultures. So, you know, because of the cattle 00:12:04.269 --> 00:12:07.070 industry, the history behind all that, you know, 00:12:07.090 --> 00:12:11.649 Texas is full of vultures. And pretty much anything 00:12:11.649 --> 00:12:15.269 that dies within a few days will be scavenged 00:12:15.269 --> 00:12:17.529 by vultures. And that includes human remains 00:12:17.529 --> 00:12:21.529 if they're not caged. Which in Tennessee, there 00:12:21.529 --> 00:12:24.889 are vultures, but they're not nearly as prevalent. 00:12:25.009 --> 00:12:27.970 And they're also, you know, they're a big bird 00:12:27.970 --> 00:12:31.490 that is kind of timid. And so they don't really 00:12:31.490 --> 00:12:35.039 like to be up underneath trees. cover and stuff. 00:12:35.179 --> 00:12:37.360 Not that they wouldn't do it, but they tend to 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:43.080 not prefer that. So all those things make a difference. 00:12:45.179 --> 00:12:48.659 And I think just having different facilities 00:12:48.659 --> 00:12:51.419 with different ideas and different researchers 00:12:51.419 --> 00:12:54.240 coming. And there are things that are always 00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:58.879 going to be similar. In some ways, insect activity 00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:02.139 is a good example. It doesn't vary a lot from 00:13:02.139 --> 00:13:05.679 facility to facility. The timing has more to 00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:08.299 do with temperature and things like that. But 00:13:08.299 --> 00:13:13.059 there are other factors that affect it. Like 00:13:13.059 --> 00:13:15.480 I said, solar radiation is actually one thing 00:13:15.480 --> 00:13:18.879 that, for me, I think is an important factor 00:13:18.879 --> 00:13:21.220 that a lot of people don't think about in just 00:13:21.220 --> 00:13:29.799 the intense sun that we get here in Texas. And 00:13:29.799 --> 00:13:32.580 the other thing I think that's really important, 00:13:33.080 --> 00:13:38.759 is when you look at i i've seen the tennessee 00:13:38.759 --> 00:13:43.019 facility i i think what a lot of people don't 00:13:43.019 --> 00:13:45.019 understand particularly general public they hear 00:13:45.019 --> 00:13:48.559 ah they have this facility they don't realize 00:13:48.559 --> 00:13:55.059 he's kind of dinky it it's it's really really 00:13:55.059 --> 00:14:03.289 small and sort of slopes to one side But Texas 00:14:03.289 --> 00:14:07.250 State, you have, if I'm not mistaken, a pretty 00:14:07.250 --> 00:14:11.370 large facility to work with. Does that offer 00:14:11.370 --> 00:14:16.049 an ability to do different types of research? 00:14:18.190 --> 00:14:20.850 Yeah, I don't know how much it does types, but 00:14:20.850 --> 00:14:23.990 yeah, I mean, we are, it's a lot bigger facility. 00:14:24.990 --> 00:14:27.950 And, you know, the difference too is, you know, 00:14:27.970 --> 00:14:30.519 Tennessee. Because of the way that, you know, 00:14:30.519 --> 00:14:33.720 Bill Bass created it, it is a couple of acres 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:38.759 that are located behind the university hospital. 00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:44.419 Where at Texas State, we have 26 acres that are 00:14:44.419 --> 00:14:48.139 set aside for the research, but it sets on about 00:14:48.139 --> 00:14:53.529 a 4 ,200 -acre ranch. So, you know, the... There's 00:14:53.529 --> 00:14:55.230 not a, you know, you don't have the same kind 00:14:55.230 --> 00:14:58.009 of activity from the city and all that kind of 00:14:58.009 --> 00:15:03.450 stuff going on. And also, you know, you're not 00:15:03.450 --> 00:15:06.730 having bodies, which probably has a big effect 00:15:06.730 --> 00:15:08.789 on like entomological research. You're not having 00:15:08.789 --> 00:15:11.350 bodies that are literally sitting next to each 00:15:11.350 --> 00:15:14.889 other all the time. And so if we have somebody 00:15:14.889 --> 00:15:17.809 that wants to do research where they have their 00:15:17.809 --> 00:15:21.460 body, you know, the... cadaver that they're using 00:15:21.460 --> 00:15:24.299 or the cadavers are using set aside that can 00:15:24.299 --> 00:15:29.440 be done we've had people that have done research 00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:32.519 like specifically looking at vulture activity 00:15:32.519 --> 00:15:36.820 where we can build a fence where you know you 00:15:36.820 --> 00:15:39.809 can reach it from the sky but you can't get access 00:15:39.809 --> 00:15:43.350 to it any other way. And so those are the kind 00:15:43.350 --> 00:15:45.710 of research projects that we can do that you 00:15:45.710 --> 00:15:47.730 probably can't do at other facilities just because 00:15:47.730 --> 00:15:50.929 of the fact that you've got the space to do it. 00:15:51.690 --> 00:15:55.769 I have a question for, I guess, in your career 00:15:55.769 --> 00:15:57.570 with all the different research that you either 00:15:57.570 --> 00:16:01.190 done yourself or have helped students do, I guess, 00:16:01.190 --> 00:16:04.970 do you have one project that like you hold dear 00:16:04.970 --> 00:16:08.870 to yourself or that like? it surprised you the 00:16:08.870 --> 00:16:12.789 result came like it you know i guess saying your 00:16:12.789 --> 00:16:14.629 favorite research project is a little odd but 00:16:14.629 --> 00:16:17.950 like what when you like think about your career 00:16:17.950 --> 00:16:20.990 which project do you think back on with such 00:16:20.990 --> 00:16:25.330 joy and stuff like that um i don't know there 00:16:25.330 --> 00:16:28.929 there isn't so i get asked this by reporters 00:16:28.929 --> 00:16:31.370 all the time like what does the big thing that 00:16:31.370 --> 00:16:33.330 you guys have done and that you know it's changed 00:16:33.330 --> 00:16:36.220 the world And in reality, it's all the little 00:16:36.220 --> 00:16:39.820 things that have changed, you know, made a big 00:16:39.820 --> 00:16:44.220 difference in understanding. You know, you were 00:16:44.220 --> 00:16:46.840 just talking about, you know, like penetrating, 00:16:46.919 --> 00:16:50.340 I mean, trauma. You know, we've had people have 00:16:50.340 --> 00:16:53.399 done looking at autopsied remains versus non 00:16:53.399 --> 00:16:56.080 -autopsied remains. But we also just had a student 00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:58.519 that looked at, does the size of the wound make 00:16:58.519 --> 00:17:01.120 a difference? And, you know, she actually found 00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:05.529 that if you had like a little one inch, incision, 00:17:05.529 --> 00:17:08.049 no flies ever actually came to any of those. 00:17:09.009 --> 00:17:10.849 Where if you had a little bit bigger incision, 00:17:10.849 --> 00:17:12.890 it made a difference. But so all those kind of 00:17:12.890 --> 00:17:15.630 add up in, you know, helping us in our knowledge. 00:17:16.369 --> 00:17:19.470 If I had to say one thing, one that's kind of 00:17:19.470 --> 00:17:21.869 been, for me, been really interesting recently, 00:17:21.910 --> 00:17:25.049 and that is I had a student that just recently 00:17:25.049 --> 00:17:28.190 went back and looked at 10 years worth of data. 00:17:28.940 --> 00:17:34.099 And so she looked at total body scores and ADD 00:17:34.099 --> 00:17:40.900 and looked for patterns that are associated with, 00:17:40.980 --> 00:17:47.960 you know, precipitation and, you know, any kind 00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:51.059 of thing like that. And what was interesting, 00:17:51.220 --> 00:17:54.519 what she found was that the main factor was mean 00:17:54.519 --> 00:17:57.990 annual temperature. which tells us that as the 00:17:57.990 --> 00:18:01.170 mean annual temperature increases with climate 00:18:01.170 --> 00:18:08.950 change, so does decomposition. So those are the 00:18:08.950 --> 00:18:12.509 kind of studies that I think that the longitudinal 00:18:12.509 --> 00:18:16.329 data that we collect is probably where most of 00:18:16.329 --> 00:18:20.009 the real research is going to come from. We have 00:18:20.009 --> 00:18:22.049 a student now that's going to be looking at 10 00:18:22.049 --> 00:18:25.519 years worth of data looking at you know ai stuff 00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:28.920 and you know is there patterns in decomposition 00:18:28.920 --> 00:18:34.440 that we don't realize you know so like for for 00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:37.160 one example you know if you look at like something 00:18:37.160 --> 00:18:40.819 like a total body score one of the things that 00:18:40.819 --> 00:18:43.380 that they talk about is the coloration changes 00:18:43.380 --> 00:18:48.299 but you know they go from like greenish to a 00:18:48.299 --> 00:18:50.940 gray or something like that well we see all kinds 00:18:50.940 --> 00:18:56.019 of things like oranges and you know, purples 00:18:56.019 --> 00:18:58.960 and all kinds of other colors. And so does that 00:18:58.960 --> 00:19:01.680 color make a difference or is it just a color 00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:05.519 change, you know? And so I think that's going 00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:10.920 to be done by looking at lots of data, big studies 00:19:10.920 --> 00:19:15.200 and, you know, lots of data from lots of different 00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:18.160 places. And I think that's going to make a big 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:19.880 difference. And so that's the kind of stuff I'm 00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:24.160 really excited about. And so a lot of the longitudinal 00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:26.420 data that we've been collecting, I think, has 00:19:26.420 --> 00:19:28.920 got the greatest potential. I mean, even we've 00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:31.900 done stuff for law enforcement where they have 00:19:31.900 --> 00:19:36.380 somebody who was diabetic and they're more decomposed 00:19:36.380 --> 00:19:39.000 than they expected them to be. Well, does diabetes 00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:42.660 play a role? It's pretty hard to do that if you 00:19:42.660 --> 00:19:45.839 want to lay out 20 people that are diabetic and 00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:47.660 20 people that are not diabetic. But if you go 00:19:47.660 --> 00:19:50.779 back to the longitudinal data and look at 800 00:19:50.779 --> 00:19:56.279 people, Now you can actually make some real significant 00:19:56.279 --> 00:20:00.519 claims about whether it makes a difference or 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:05.019 not. And what are the factors that affect that? 00:20:06.299 --> 00:20:08.480 Yeah, no, that totally makes sense. I know when 00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:11.240 I first went into grad school, I thought I wanted 00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:14.799 to do decomp research and I was like all excited 00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:18.180 for it. And I went to like a smaller university 00:20:18.180 --> 00:20:20.539 that definitely didn't have a facility of any 00:20:20.539 --> 00:20:24.869 kind. And I like went in kind of thinking how 00:20:24.869 --> 00:20:26.130 we were talking earlier. I was like, well, I'll 00:20:26.130 --> 00:20:27.849 just do it on pigs. It'll be fine. Everything's 00:20:27.849 --> 00:20:29.150 great. And then my teacher was just like, oh, 00:20:29.309 --> 00:20:32.730 maybe, maybe we change what we're doing here 00:20:32.730 --> 00:20:34.069 because I don't think that's going to be all 00:20:34.069 --> 00:20:37.309 that helpful. And so it's like definitely really 00:20:37.309 --> 00:20:39.750 like, even though I didn't necessarily go into 00:20:39.750 --> 00:20:41.809 decomp research, it's always been fascinating 00:20:41.809 --> 00:20:44.470 to me to just like see what people come up with 00:20:44.470 --> 00:20:50.109 and like just the questions that can be answered 00:20:50.109 --> 00:20:53.880 with. that type of like facility of you know 00:20:53.880 --> 00:20:57.039 those long -term changes and what can you really 00:20:57.039 --> 00:20:59.720 say and what is this random anomaly because you 00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:04.180 did a test on two people or whatever so well 00:21:04.180 --> 00:21:06.279 you know and that's the thing you know like one 00:21:06.279 --> 00:21:08.680 of the things that you also learn is that what 00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:12.440 are the limitations of what you can say and you 00:21:12.440 --> 00:21:15.380 know i actually frequently get asked you know 00:21:15.690 --> 00:21:18.289 by defense lawyers is like, well, you know, we 00:21:18.289 --> 00:21:20.170 have this case and they said that the person 00:21:20.170 --> 00:21:23.109 died, you know, two months and three days and 00:21:23.109 --> 00:21:25.309 12 hours ago or something, you know, something 00:21:25.309 --> 00:21:27.609 like that. And a lot of what I am doing is saying, 00:21:27.730 --> 00:21:30.190 yeah, even if they wanted to say that, they just 00:21:30.190 --> 00:21:32.230 don't have the ability. You know, they don't 00:21:32.230 --> 00:21:35.369 have anything to back it. So, which is also important. 00:21:35.549 --> 00:21:37.089 I mean, you think about it, if we're in forensic 00:21:37.089 --> 00:21:40.930 anthropology, I mean, our purpose is to, you 00:21:40.930 --> 00:21:44.769 know, provide as much truth about what happened 00:21:44.769 --> 00:21:49.890 at that scene as possible, whether that exonerates 00:21:49.890 --> 00:21:52.869 the person that they think is guilty or not. 00:21:53.049 --> 00:21:57.650 You know, so. Our job is not to speak to the 00:21:57.650 --> 00:22:01.549 criminality of the defendant, but to the victim 00:22:01.549 --> 00:22:07.640 itself. Right. Exactly. And. You brought up total 00:22:07.640 --> 00:22:10.839 body scores and everything, and I wanted to pick 00:22:10.839 --> 00:22:12.660 your brain. It's not one of the questions I actually 00:22:12.660 --> 00:22:17.700 wrote down, but I used it in my master's thesis, 00:22:17.819 --> 00:22:23.920 and I've always had it, and I've taught it. Accumulated 00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:32.240 degree days. Magesi et al., 2005. There's something 00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:36.900 about it, because it uses... temperature alone. 00:22:37.779 --> 00:22:41.480 And I just have this thing about, there's so 00:22:41.480 --> 00:22:44.799 many other factors involved in decomposition. 00:22:47.500 --> 00:22:55.660 What's your thoughts? Can we use a formulary 00:22:55.660 --> 00:23:00.000 that relies, and I'm not asking you to comment 00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:04.150 on that particular paper. But can we use a formulary 00:23:04.150 --> 00:23:11.470 that relies on pure temperature? Or do we need 00:23:11.470 --> 00:23:15.150 to have one? Or should we try to come up with 00:23:15.150 --> 00:23:19.509 one that includes things like humidity data that 00:23:19.509 --> 00:23:25.549 does have influence in decomposition? Is there 00:23:25.549 --> 00:23:27.650 something that needs to be a bit more encompassing? 00:23:27.650 --> 00:23:33.960 And can AI be that? tool that helps us. Yeah, 00:23:33.980 --> 00:23:38.819 I mean, you know, I think AI has the potential 00:23:38.819 --> 00:23:43.700 to do stuff, but also I think it's the shiny 00:23:43.700 --> 00:23:47.619 new item that may or may not have as much potential 00:23:47.619 --> 00:23:52.660 in the long run as we think it does. But I agree 00:23:52.660 --> 00:23:55.299 with you in that sense. So for me, what I have 00:23:55.299 --> 00:23:59.920 found is that total body score is a good way 00:23:59.920 --> 00:24:04.480 of standardizing the way we collect data, right? 00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:09.240 Whether you use the formula or not. Now, the 00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:15.619 formula, I do think, if you really want an accurate 00:24:15.619 --> 00:24:19.279 formula, has to include other items. I mean, 00:24:19.319 --> 00:24:21.619 you think about it, even if you go back and use 00:24:21.619 --> 00:24:23.819 just temperature, but you go back and you find 00:24:23.819 --> 00:24:28.329 out, well, the day that... that person you know 00:24:28.329 --> 00:24:35.190 based on the the mean add died it was raining 00:24:35.190 --> 00:24:39.930 well that affects things because guess what flies 00:24:39.930 --> 00:24:42.430 don't like to lay in their bodies when it's raining 00:24:42.430 --> 00:24:46.769 you know or it was really windy that day and 00:24:46.769 --> 00:24:49.589 you know so there are other factors like that 00:24:49.589 --> 00:24:54.850 that are going to have a huge effect um on an 00:24:54.850 --> 00:24:58.210 accurate estimation of decomposition. So I think 00:24:58.210 --> 00:25:00.509 we have to take that into consideration. But 00:25:00.509 --> 00:25:05.509 I also think that that is true with... That's 00:25:05.509 --> 00:25:07.690 the difference between having somebody who is 00:25:07.690 --> 00:25:11.789 an expert look at the data and interpreting the 00:25:11.789 --> 00:25:14.609 postmortem interval versus somebody who just 00:25:14.609 --> 00:25:16.849 plugs in the numbers and says, oh, this is the 00:25:16.849 --> 00:25:20.009 results. But I mean, that's true if you're looking 00:25:20.009 --> 00:25:23.609 at... you know, sex estimation or anything else 00:25:23.609 --> 00:25:25.609 like that is that part of what you're supposed 00:25:25.609 --> 00:25:30.730 expected to do as an expert is to look at that 00:25:30.730 --> 00:25:33.950 data, utilize the methods that are there, but 00:25:33.950 --> 00:25:37.990 also realize when those methods are flying to 00:25:37.990 --> 00:25:43.109 you, you know, and, or not necessarily lying 00:25:43.109 --> 00:25:44.950 to, but you're not giving you the full, full 00:25:44.950 --> 00:25:48.549 information. Interpretation. Right. And so that's, 00:25:48.549 --> 00:25:50.269 you know, that's part of being the expert. Otherwise, 00:25:50.369 --> 00:25:52.710 we could just say, OK, here's the formula. You 00:25:52.710 --> 00:25:55.569 know, any anybody on the street can plug in things 00:25:55.569 --> 00:26:01.710 and and come up with with the correct results. 00:26:02.210 --> 00:26:04.630 You know, and I mean, if you know, if you know, 00:26:04.730 --> 00:26:06.710 when you teach classes, you realize that that's 00:26:06.710 --> 00:26:08.910 not true because, you know, you get the undergraduates 00:26:08.910 --> 00:26:10.609 that you give them exactly the same thing and 00:26:10.609 --> 00:26:12.309 they come up with these wildly different answers, 00:26:12.410 --> 00:26:22.779 you know. To change the topic a little bit, there 00:26:22.779 --> 00:26:29.740 are unfortunately many in society that question 00:26:29.740 --> 00:26:33.859 the ethics of having decompositional research 00:26:33.859 --> 00:26:38.059 facilities. They argue that the research itself 00:26:38.059 --> 00:26:43.859 is desecrating bodies and is unethical, sort 00:26:43.859 --> 00:26:49.900 of just on spec. How do you address those ethical 00:26:49.900 --> 00:26:56.480 concerns? How do you deal with them? So, first 00:26:56.480 --> 00:27:00.460 of all, I think that everybody should be able 00:27:00.460 --> 00:27:06.880 to have some say into what happens to their remains 00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:15.289 after they die. With us, the way that we deal 00:27:15.289 --> 00:27:18.869 with this is that the people that we donate, 00:27:18.970 --> 00:27:22.390 they donate specifically to us. They're not donating 00:27:22.390 --> 00:27:25.349 to some general anatomical pool or something 00:27:25.349 --> 00:27:28.829 like that. So they know what's going to be done 00:27:28.829 --> 00:27:33.490 with them, right? Or at least to the knowledge 00:27:33.490 --> 00:27:36.990 that they want to know. I mean, you're right. 00:27:37.289 --> 00:27:40.609 And this is something that they find important. 00:27:43.760 --> 00:27:49.140 And so, you know, that right there takes care 00:27:49.140 --> 00:27:53.500 of most of the ethical issues. The other stuff, 00:27:53.619 --> 00:27:56.359 if you don't agree with, you know, that dead 00:27:56.359 --> 00:27:58.460 bodies should be used for research, well, that's 00:27:58.460 --> 00:28:02.000 a different story, right? But it's not associated 00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:05.349 with the ethics of... the research itself or 00:28:05.349 --> 00:28:07.410 anything like that, because these people have 00:28:07.410 --> 00:28:16.490 consented to this. They, and I, yeah, so they, 00:28:16.549 --> 00:28:19.549 you know, they have consented to this. This is 00:28:19.549 --> 00:28:23.670 something that they want to see done. And like 00:28:23.670 --> 00:28:26.289 I said, most of the time they have a really good 00:28:26.289 --> 00:28:29.869 understanding of what's going to happen. For 00:28:29.869 --> 00:28:35.009 us, we even have, you know, people who are pre 00:28:35.009 --> 00:28:39.670 -registered donors that will come into the lab 00:28:39.670 --> 00:28:43.329 and we give them tours of the, not the decon 00:28:43.329 --> 00:28:46.210 facility, but of the skeletal lab and talk about 00:28:46.210 --> 00:28:49.890 what happens to the remains and the processes 00:28:49.890 --> 00:28:51.930 that we go through and all that kind of stuff. 00:28:52.089 --> 00:28:56.789 And they are thrilled with it. We also, once 00:28:56.789 --> 00:29:01.069 we have the remains have been decomposed and 00:29:01.069 --> 00:29:03.900 been processed down to a skeleton, the families 00:29:03.900 --> 00:29:08.180 can come visit the skeletal remains. And it's 00:29:08.180 --> 00:29:10.940 amazing how many families come in. And, you know, 00:29:10.980 --> 00:29:14.480 we also keep track of every research project, 00:29:14.660 --> 00:29:19.680 every class, anything that the remains are used 00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:21.640 in. And so when the families come in, we can 00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:26.869 say, look, you know, we can talk about. You know, 00:29:26.890 --> 00:29:29.369 like a lot of times I'll come in and bring them 00:29:29.369 --> 00:29:31.569 in and I'll be like, okay, there's a broken bone 00:29:31.569 --> 00:29:34.470 here. This is what I could tell you about it, 00:29:34.529 --> 00:29:36.069 stuff like that. And they'll be like, oh, yeah, 00:29:36.190 --> 00:29:38.369 I remember when that happened and, you know, 00:29:38.369 --> 00:29:40.329 stuff like that. So it's actually good for them 00:29:40.329 --> 00:29:44.349 in that sense, too. But it also, you know, gives 00:29:44.349 --> 00:29:47.869 us a little bit more information about the individual 00:29:47.869 --> 00:29:50.990 as well. And then we can also talk to them about 00:29:50.990 --> 00:29:54.200 all the. research has been done and frequently 00:29:54.200 --> 00:29:57.559 they are like oh man you know dad would have 00:29:57.559 --> 00:30:00.059 loved that you know that that is something that 00:30:00.059 --> 00:30:03.380 really he would have found fascinating you know 00:30:03.380 --> 00:30:08.700 um you know and sometimes their only their only 00:30:08.700 --> 00:30:10.920 involvement in that research project might even 00:30:10.920 --> 00:30:14.779 be that they are the control sample so you know 00:30:14.779 --> 00:30:17.680 like we do a lot of research on obesity and so 00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:22.480 In every study that we do, if we have a 54 -year 00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:26.460 -old obese male, for example, we find a 54 -year 00:30:26.460 --> 00:30:30.339 -old non -obese male. And so they may be the 00:30:30.339 --> 00:30:34.099 non -obese individual, but they still find that 00:30:34.099 --> 00:30:37.740 it's really fascinating that their dad was involved 00:30:37.740 --> 00:30:47.339 in that study. How much say do they get in? Do 00:30:47.339 --> 00:30:50.420 they get a chance to say, hey, I would like to 00:30:50.420 --> 00:30:59.079 be in Research Project 1225A? I'm donating to 00:30:59.079 --> 00:31:03.000 the facility. Please use my remains in whichever 00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:07.920 research project. My remains would be most appropriate. 00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:13.039 That is most people. There are people who specifically 00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:18.119 have, you know, Things that they would like to 00:31:18.119 --> 00:31:22.400 get done or be a part of. And we will tell them 00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:24.720 up front, you know, if it's available, we will 00:31:24.720 --> 00:31:27.839 do this. And, you know, one of the things that 00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:31.200 we get a lot is vulture research. Because people 00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:33.660 say, I would love to be part of a vulture research 00:31:33.660 --> 00:31:36.339 project. Well, that's fine as long as there's 00:31:36.339 --> 00:31:40.180 a vulture research project going on. But we also, 00:31:40.359 --> 00:31:42.920 you know, we do things like we do fire death 00:31:42.920 --> 00:31:47.509 investigation. and looking at, you know, thermal 00:31:47.509 --> 00:31:51.089 trauma. We've done, you know, we do a lot of 00:31:51.089 --> 00:31:54.329 stuff with clandestine remains, for example. 00:31:54.369 --> 00:31:58.529 How do you locate clandestine remains using remote 00:31:58.529 --> 00:32:01.589 sensing? Those kind of things. And, you know, 00:32:01.630 --> 00:32:04.190 in those cases, sometimes we will get people 00:32:04.190 --> 00:32:07.309 to say, I don't want to be burned or I don't 00:32:07.309 --> 00:32:10.309 want to be buried. Well, we honor that. You know, 00:32:10.329 --> 00:32:12.809 if they say that, then we find another project 00:32:12.809 --> 00:32:17.460 for them. I think that's pretty rare because 00:32:17.460 --> 00:32:19.839 most of them are like, oh, yeah, whatever it 00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:26.019 takes, you know. But, you know, they also, so 00:32:26.019 --> 00:32:27.720 that's the other thing, too, is that, you know, 00:32:27.720 --> 00:32:31.200 you, by law, you really don't have to have them 00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:33.180 consent to, like, everything. But we usually 00:32:33.180 --> 00:32:36.819 ask, well, we always ask, you know, are you okay 00:32:36.819 --> 00:32:40.079 if we do some kind of, you know, destructive 00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:45.380 type of analysis? I think you also could get 00:32:45.380 --> 00:32:47.579 into what is constructive analysis considering 00:32:47.579 --> 00:32:53.579 the fact that they're decomposing. I think that 00:32:53.579 --> 00:32:56.160 most people have some kind of idea. Can I explode 00:32:56.160 --> 00:32:59.779 you? Can I shoot you with a gun? Something like 00:32:59.779 --> 00:33:05.980 that. I would say that 99 % of the people are 00:33:05.980 --> 00:33:08.420 more than happy to sign off on that. It's not 00:33:08.420 --> 00:33:13.700 just if you don't say something, you know, you're 00:33:13.700 --> 00:33:17.240 consenting. They have to actually initial off 00:33:17.240 --> 00:33:22.079 on it. So, you know, to me, that all makes it, 00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:26.859 takes away the ethical dilemmas of, you know, 00:33:26.859 --> 00:33:30.839 you have consent, the bodies are treated with 00:33:30.839 --> 00:33:34.619 respect, even, you know, I mean, even if they're 00:33:34.619 --> 00:33:39.680 in a study where they're being, you know, burned 00:33:39.680 --> 00:33:41.440 or something like that they're being cheated 00:33:41.440 --> 00:33:45.259 with respect and they're being you know curated 00:33:45.259 --> 00:33:49.420 properly they're being utilized to better the 00:33:49.420 --> 00:33:54.079 world and i you know i don't know how more ethical 00:33:54.079 --> 00:33:59.480 you could get than that if you i guess i've always 00:33:59.480 --> 00:34:01.660 wanted to donate my body that was like definitely 00:34:01.660 --> 00:34:05.839 on my i mean it's on my to -do list eventually 00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:09.219 to like fill out all the way down the road to 00:34:09.219 --> 00:34:11.800 do all the things. Well, I feel I'm like, I should 00:34:11.800 --> 00:34:14.099 probably do it before I think about it because 00:34:14.099 --> 00:34:17.380 then it'll be too late at that point. But I guess, 00:34:17.380 --> 00:34:21.519 have you ever had, I don't want to say like convinced 00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:24.340 someone to do it because like that feels unethical, 00:34:24.380 --> 00:34:27.559 but like if someone was on the fence and you're 00:34:27.559 --> 00:34:31.699 trying to explain the perks, I guess, of body 00:34:31.699 --> 00:34:34.820 donation and things like that, do you? Do you 00:34:34.820 --> 00:34:37.659 find you try to do those? Or if someone's somewhat 00:34:37.659 --> 00:34:40.780 on the fence, it's just like a no -go from there? 00:34:40.900 --> 00:34:44.440 Because I know for myself, I was always like, 00:34:44.460 --> 00:34:46.159 yep, that's what I'm going to do. I don't need 00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:49.260 my body in a cemetery somewhere. I learn from 00:34:49.260 --> 00:34:50.920 other people. They can learn from me. It'll be 00:34:50.920 --> 00:34:53.400 great. But I know my mom's like, well, if you 00:34:53.400 --> 00:34:55.699 do that, if you die before you make that paperwork, 00:34:55.940 --> 00:34:58.460 I'm not doing that for you. And I'm like, but 00:34:58.460 --> 00:35:04.719 it's my body, I guess. So just like, yeah. So 00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:06.380 there's a couple of things with that. One is, 00:35:06.420 --> 00:35:09.820 no, I would never try to, if they're on the fence, 00:35:09.860 --> 00:35:11.880 then I tell them that, you know, it's time for 00:35:11.880 --> 00:35:16.239 you to go back and talk to your family and think 00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:18.739 about this longer. And, you know, you always 00:35:18.739 --> 00:35:21.800 have the opportunity to do it later. The other 00:35:21.800 --> 00:35:24.219 thing is, is that for people that want to do 00:35:24.219 --> 00:35:28.119 it, I always tell them it's really important 00:35:28.119 --> 00:35:32.269 that you talk to your family because You may 00:35:32.269 --> 00:35:36.670 want to do this, but if they don't call us, we 00:35:36.670 --> 00:35:38.510 don't know that you died. It's not like we go 00:35:38.510 --> 00:35:40.510 through the obituaries every day and go, oh, 00:35:40.510 --> 00:35:43.429 there's John Smith. Let's go get him, right? 00:35:43.909 --> 00:35:49.550 So, you know, everybody has to be kind of in 00:35:49.550 --> 00:35:53.019 agreement with this. And I think it is, you know, 00:35:53.019 --> 00:35:55.719 like a lot of things with life. But, you know, 00:35:55.739 --> 00:35:58.019 I think, you know, a lot of times Americans like 00:35:58.019 --> 00:36:01.000 to avoid talking about death. But, you know, 00:36:01.000 --> 00:36:02.840 I think it's really important that you do talk 00:36:02.840 --> 00:36:05.380 about what you would like to have done. Because 00:36:05.380 --> 00:36:07.179 if you don't talk about what you would like to 00:36:07.179 --> 00:36:12.000 have done, then you're totally reliant on your 00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:15.820 family to decide. Right. So with that being said. 00:36:17.150 --> 00:36:19.369 Right. Organ donation, anything like that. Right. 00:36:19.469 --> 00:36:21.469 I mean, you could be you could sign up as an 00:36:21.469 --> 00:36:25.190 organ donor. And if you're the first thing that 00:36:25.190 --> 00:36:28.190 will happen when you die is they'll contact you 00:36:28.190 --> 00:36:31.030 and say contact the family and they'll say, you 00:36:31.030 --> 00:36:34.809 know, John Smith is your dad or whatever is an 00:36:34.809 --> 00:36:37.969 organ donor. Do you consent to that? And if the 00:36:37.969 --> 00:36:40.469 family says no, they're done. They won't do it. 00:36:41.769 --> 00:36:44.750 Right. Yes. So you have to talk to them ahead 00:36:44.750 --> 00:36:46.750 of time. And I know this because I used to work 00:36:46.750 --> 00:36:49.510 in an emergency room, you know, in the middle 00:36:49.510 --> 00:36:51.570 of the night. And it was very common that we'd 00:36:51.570 --> 00:36:53.289 have people that die and their families would 00:36:53.289 --> 00:36:55.869 say, I know that he really wanted that, but I 00:36:55.869 --> 00:36:58.329 just can't bear to think about him being cut 00:36:58.329 --> 00:37:02.630 open. And that was the end of it. They would 00:37:02.630 --> 00:37:07.010 not proceed with it. And that's the same thing 00:37:07.010 --> 00:37:09.230 here. I mean, you know, if it's not something 00:37:09.230 --> 00:37:12.900 that they. want to do. But the other thing I 00:37:12.900 --> 00:37:16.440 should say is that also one of the parts of being 00:37:16.440 --> 00:37:21.239 ethical part of that is that we also do not accept 00:37:21.239 --> 00:37:25.059 next -to -kin donations from people who've been 00:37:25.059 --> 00:37:29.400 estranged from their family members. Right? And 00:37:29.400 --> 00:37:32.960 there's actually a couple reasons. One is that 00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:36.000 we don't know that that's what that person wanted. 00:37:36.320 --> 00:37:40.500 And we don't want to be the dumping ground. because 00:37:40.500 --> 00:37:43.559 you don't want to pay for dad's funeral, right? 00:37:44.900 --> 00:37:47.219 Second of all, they usually don't know anything 00:37:47.219 --> 00:37:50.239 about the person, which means that the paperwork 00:37:50.239 --> 00:37:52.920 you get is basically their name and social security 00:37:52.920 --> 00:37:55.440 number, and that's about it, which is not useful 00:37:55.440 --> 00:37:59.340 either for the research purposes. So there's 00:37:59.340 --> 00:38:05.159 a lot of differences behind that. We don't take 00:38:05.159 --> 00:38:08.119 unclaimed bodies. We definitely don't take unidentified 00:38:08.119 --> 00:38:11.980 remains. So in Texas, we have a justice peace 00:38:11.980 --> 00:38:14.639 system. We frequently get calls from justice 00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:20.260 peace that say we have unclaimed remains of so 00:38:20.260 --> 00:38:23.260 -and -so, and they become the legal next of kin, 00:38:23.460 --> 00:38:25.960 but we still won't accept their remains because 00:38:25.960 --> 00:38:30.340 that's not what we want. Most of our next to 00:38:30.340 --> 00:38:34.219 kin donations are from people who we get a call 00:38:34.219 --> 00:38:36.739 from the family that says, you know, my dad just 00:38:36.739 --> 00:38:40.920 died and he is a living donor. And you say, well, 00:38:41.039 --> 00:38:42.739 we don't have any paperwork on him. He's not 00:38:42.739 --> 00:38:44.360 a living donor. And they're like, we know he's 00:38:44.360 --> 00:38:45.940 a living donor because we have the paperwork 00:38:45.940 --> 00:38:49.119 right here. And it's like, yeah, you have the 00:38:49.119 --> 00:38:51.260 paperwork because your dad never actually sent 00:38:51.260 --> 00:38:56.969 it in. Right. But it tells us that dad was. At 00:38:56.969 --> 00:38:59.730 least seriously thinking about that, you know. 00:39:00.090 --> 00:39:03.210 And then the other ones that we get that are 00:39:03.210 --> 00:39:06.190 next to kin donations are usually where they 00:39:06.190 --> 00:39:09.690 donated, for example, to a medical school. And 00:39:09.690 --> 00:39:11.789 then upon death, the medical school rejected 00:39:11.789 --> 00:39:14.230 them. Because medical schools have very, very 00:39:14.230 --> 00:39:16.530 strict criteria as far as who they will accept. 00:39:17.150 --> 00:39:20.150 And so a lot of times the families will say, 00:39:20.269 --> 00:39:21.929 you know, we know that they wanted to donate 00:39:21.929 --> 00:39:25.449 to a medical school, but we also know that it's... 00:39:25.710 --> 00:39:28.530 but more important to them that they get donated 00:39:28.530 --> 00:39:32.409 to somebody than it is to, you know, just be 00:39:32.409 --> 00:39:35.369 cremated or buried or something like that. So 00:39:35.369 --> 00:39:38.929 they're following the wishes of their loved ones, 00:39:39.130 --> 00:39:42.010 which I, you know, there again, I don't think 00:39:42.010 --> 00:39:45.690 you can get any more better consent or more ethical 00:39:45.690 --> 00:39:49.530 treatment than trying to do something of that 00:39:49.530 --> 00:39:54.489 nature. If you had, like, I guess with the paperwork 00:39:54.489 --> 00:39:56.639 that, goes into it because i have not looked 00:39:56.639 --> 00:40:00.960 into it fully yet but uh what type of information 00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:06.239 do you request from the living donor about their 00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:08.380 like life history i guess because you're saying 00:40:08.380 --> 00:40:10.880 if they were estranged maybe they only have their 00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:12.360 name and their social security number what other 00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:15.320 type of information so i know for myself what 00:40:15.320 --> 00:40:19.280 should i be tracking in my own body so so there 00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:22.469 are two sides to the paperwork So one is that 00:40:22.469 --> 00:40:26.449 when a person dies and donates their bodies to 00:40:26.449 --> 00:40:32.090 us, we become basically the funeral. We initiate 00:40:32.090 --> 00:40:34.070 the death certificate and stuff like that. So 00:40:34.070 --> 00:40:37.730 there is a component to that that we ask names, 00:40:38.170 --> 00:40:42.849 a security number, military service, things like 00:40:42.849 --> 00:40:45.449 that, that have to go on to the death certificate. 00:40:45.590 --> 00:40:50.280 That information is... never released to, for 00:40:50.280 --> 00:40:53.119 example, researchers. You'd never have a researcher 00:40:53.119 --> 00:40:56.860 ask for the name or their social security number 00:40:56.860 --> 00:40:59.539 or anything like that, obviously. That is totally 00:40:59.539 --> 00:41:04.239 for the death certificate side of it. For the 00:41:04.239 --> 00:41:09.559 research side of it, we ask everything from medical 00:41:09.559 --> 00:41:15.679 histories to activity levels to, you know, Weight 00:41:15.679 --> 00:41:18.519 difference, like if we ask, have you been obese? 00:41:18.719 --> 00:41:20.599 If you're obese, how long have you been obese? 00:41:20.920 --> 00:41:23.820 Does your weight fluctuate a lot? Things that 00:41:23.820 --> 00:41:27.360 would affect skeletal remains, but also affect 00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:35.300 decomposition to some extent, even. What kind 00:41:35.300 --> 00:41:38.880 of medications were you taking? That really has 00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:41.239 a big effect on decomposition, depending on the 00:41:41.239 --> 00:41:47.639 medications they were on. You know, where did 00:41:47.639 --> 00:41:50.820 you live at different stages of your life? So 00:41:50.820 --> 00:41:53.800 we usually ask, you know, where did you live 00:41:53.800 --> 00:41:55.480 the first 20 years of your life? Where did you 00:41:55.480 --> 00:41:57.519 live the last 20 years of your life? So if we 00:41:57.519 --> 00:41:59.679 want to do like isotope analysis or something 00:41:59.679 --> 00:42:02.000 like that, we have that kind of information. 00:42:04.619 --> 00:42:08.260 We ask, you know, questions about smoking and 00:42:08.260 --> 00:42:10.699 diabetes. and, you know, other things like that 00:42:10.699 --> 00:42:14.480 that some researchers are interested in. And 00:42:14.480 --> 00:42:17.019 then there are things that we realize that, you 00:42:17.019 --> 00:42:19.519 know, we've been asking this for years and no 00:42:19.519 --> 00:42:24.119 researchers ever used it. And so we'll stop collecting 00:42:24.119 --> 00:42:27.400 that data and switch to something that, because 00:42:27.400 --> 00:42:28.920 a lot of times we'll get researchers that are, 00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:31.980 you know, what you'll find is that multiple people 00:42:31.980 --> 00:42:34.440 call you and say, do you have data on this? And 00:42:34.440 --> 00:42:36.760 you're like, oh. That'd be a good thing to collect, 00:42:36.880 --> 00:42:39.480 but we don't. And so after a while, you're like, 00:42:39.579 --> 00:42:43.139 okay, well, let's drop this. So one of the questions 00:42:43.139 --> 00:42:46.699 that we have for years that we've had is, do 00:42:46.699 --> 00:42:50.599 you have tattoos? Well, I can look at a picture 00:42:50.599 --> 00:42:53.699 and tell whether you have a tattoo or not. I 00:42:53.699 --> 00:42:55.679 don't really need you to answer yes or no on 00:42:55.679 --> 00:43:02.960 that, right? So it's not necessarily useful information. 00:43:03.670 --> 00:43:06.849 And so let's ask something, you know, more appropriate 00:43:06.849 --> 00:43:10.210 that might be, you know, might be better for 00:43:10.210 --> 00:43:12.429 researchers that are especially, I mean, you 00:43:12.429 --> 00:43:15.510 think about a lot of what we're after is what 00:43:15.510 --> 00:43:18.010 is going to affect the decomposition. And then 00:43:18.010 --> 00:43:20.829 later on, what is going to affect skeletal morphology? 00:43:21.210 --> 00:43:23.110 Because that's what most anthropologists are 00:43:23.110 --> 00:43:26.289 interested in, you know, those two sides. And 00:43:26.289 --> 00:43:30.340 so. Trying to improve, you know, what is asked 00:43:30.340 --> 00:43:32.940 and what is collected and then realizing that, 00:43:32.960 --> 00:43:38.039 okay, if nobody's using this data, it's a great 00:43:38.039 --> 00:43:40.679 thing to, maybe it's, or maybe it's not a great 00:43:40.679 --> 00:43:43.760 thing to continue to collect. And then you also 00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:47.820 always have to weigh this with the costs that 00:43:47.820 --> 00:43:50.039 are associated with collecting that data. So 00:43:50.039 --> 00:43:51.880 like, for example, one of the things that I would 00:43:51.880 --> 00:43:57.780 love to have is a CT scan. a whole body CT scan 00:43:57.780 --> 00:44:03.260 of every donor that comes in. Well, it's outrageously 00:44:03.260 --> 00:44:08.380 expensive. And so is it worth the data or not? 00:44:08.659 --> 00:44:11.340 And, you know, I mean, I think depending on your 00:44:11.340 --> 00:44:13.260 research project, you could argue that it is 00:44:13.260 --> 00:44:16.159 or isn't. But you'll have to weigh that with, 00:44:16.320 --> 00:44:19.000 okay, but how do we come up with that money to 00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:24.579 do that kind of research? Collaborations. Yes, 00:44:24.639 --> 00:44:31.320 collaborations. Do you have a certain catchment 00:44:31.320 --> 00:44:34.739 area that you work with? I mean, because just 00:44:34.739 --> 00:44:40.840 thinking about it, the cool warm cycle of remains 00:44:40.840 --> 00:44:45.619 would affect decomposition if you start looking 00:44:45.619 --> 00:44:49.039 out beyond a certain geographical area, would 00:44:49.039 --> 00:44:54.309 it not? I'm sorry, I don't know if I'm following 00:44:54.309 --> 00:44:58.869 your question exactly. Yeah, I just, for where 00:44:58.869 --> 00:45:03.570 you have donations, donors, there are certain 00:45:03.570 --> 00:45:07.170 geographical area you work with, because if you 00:45:07.170 --> 00:45:10.989 have donations from somebody, say, if I was on 00:45:10.989 --> 00:45:13.849 your donor list, I'm in Memphis, Tennessee, I 00:45:13.849 --> 00:45:16.869 die, my family decides to send my remains to 00:45:16.869 --> 00:45:20.889 you, they'd have to be cooled. before they get 00:45:20.889 --> 00:45:24.489 to you otherwise there'd be some form of decomposition 00:45:24.489 --> 00:45:29.070 before it reaches you that would would that not 00:45:29.070 --> 00:45:32.030 affect ultimately the research that y 'all are 00:45:32.030 --> 00:45:35.710 doing because the starting point is now off yeah 00:45:35.710 --> 00:45:39.110 and that's that's always i mean even if you're 00:45:39.110 --> 00:45:43.369 working within the local region you know that 00:45:43.369 --> 00:45:46.510 is always the case you don't a lot of times you 00:45:46.510 --> 00:45:50.309 uh have no You know, you have somebody who dies 00:45:50.309 --> 00:45:54.670 and they may, well, matter of fact, I mean, you 00:45:54.670 --> 00:45:57.710 know, we may be get contacted by hospice or something 00:45:57.710 --> 00:46:00.010 like that within minutes after somebody dies. 00:46:00.250 --> 00:46:02.889 And they say, you know, so -and -so is a donor, 00:46:03.050 --> 00:46:05.230 living donor, and they have just passed away. 00:46:05.510 --> 00:46:08.030 And you also knew that they were getting ready 00:46:08.030 --> 00:46:11.190 to pass away, you know. So everybody's ready 00:46:11.190 --> 00:46:14.239 and you go get them. There are other people who 00:46:14.239 --> 00:46:17.239 they die and they call you and they say, you 00:46:17.239 --> 00:46:20.880 know, John Smith was a living donor. He died 00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:25.619 yesterday morning. You know, that's always going 00:46:25.619 --> 00:46:32.519 to be a factor in the, I mean, in taphonomic 00:46:32.519 --> 00:46:34.619 research. And you have to take that into consideration. 00:46:36.400 --> 00:46:40.369 For us, too, I mean, other. benefit is that we're 00:46:40.369 --> 00:46:43.050 interested in skeletal research as well. And 00:46:43.050 --> 00:46:46.929 so it doesn't affect that aspect of it, right? 00:46:47.530 --> 00:46:52.329 So it depends on the research protocol that the 00:46:52.329 --> 00:46:55.510 person is going to be used in. It may be that 00:46:55.510 --> 00:46:57.869 if you don't get contacted for a day or two, 00:46:58.050 --> 00:47:01.090 that they just aren't part of that study. They 00:47:01.090 --> 00:47:03.630 have to be put into a different study. You know, 00:47:03.630 --> 00:47:05.550 that you're only interested in the people who 00:47:05.550 --> 00:47:09.409 died almost immediately. This is always going 00:47:09.409 --> 00:47:15.570 to be a bias or a factor that affects research 00:47:15.570 --> 00:47:20.510 at a decomposition facility is that you're never 00:47:20.510 --> 00:47:24.869 getting somebody who, like, they just murdered, 00:47:25.210 --> 00:47:28.789 you know, and they're laying out in the field 00:47:28.789 --> 00:47:32.750 30 seconds after they died. And so, you know, 00:47:32.750 --> 00:47:34.829 you're never going to have that perfect thing. 00:47:35.559 --> 00:47:41.239 And that's part of understanding that process 00:47:41.239 --> 00:47:44.780 and knowing the limitations of what you can and 00:47:44.780 --> 00:47:49.820 can't say. Yeah, but can you mitigate that by 00:47:49.820 --> 00:47:53.760 having, or do you mitigate that by having sort 00:47:53.760 --> 00:47:59.179 of a region by which you have donations? Or do 00:47:59.179 --> 00:48:02.340 you take donations from all across the U .S.? 00:48:02.969 --> 00:48:05.949 We will accept donations from all across the 00:48:05.949 --> 00:48:09.329 U .S. Most of our donors are within 100 miles 00:48:09.329 --> 00:48:13.610 of us. Okay. And what we have found is that, 00:48:13.730 --> 00:48:16.309 you know, and this is true with the other facilities, 00:48:16.329 --> 00:48:19.210 is that, you know, like if I have somebody who 00:48:19.210 --> 00:48:21.889 call, you know, family that contacts me and they 00:48:21.889 --> 00:48:23.929 say, you know, we have a loved one and they are 00:48:23.929 --> 00:48:26.929 in Houston and they just died. I always say, 00:48:27.030 --> 00:48:29.630 well, contact Sam Houston University because, 00:48:29.690 --> 00:48:33.840 you know, they're closer to you. Or, you know, 00:48:33.880 --> 00:48:37.400 you have somebody that dies, you know, in Colorado, 00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:40.119 and I'll tell them, you know, contact this facility 00:48:40.119 --> 00:48:43.480 in Colorado because they're a lot closer and 00:48:43.480 --> 00:48:46.360 they can get your remains a lot sooner and everything 00:48:46.360 --> 00:48:49.880 else. There are some families that know, I mean, 00:48:49.900 --> 00:48:52.739 or some people that are like, you know, no, I 00:48:52.739 --> 00:48:55.199 was a Texas State, you know, graduate. I wanted 00:48:55.199 --> 00:48:59.360 to go to Texas State. And they know in that case, 00:48:59.380 --> 00:49:02.150 you know. You know, you have to take that into 00:49:02.150 --> 00:49:04.489 consideration. And you try to limit, you know, 00:49:04.530 --> 00:49:07.309 the problems associated with that as much as 00:49:07.309 --> 00:49:10.650 you can by putting them in cold storage or, you 00:49:10.650 --> 00:49:14.449 know, something of that nature. And, you know, 00:49:14.469 --> 00:49:16.889 that's the other thing, too, is that a lot of 00:49:16.889 --> 00:49:20.949 research that's done, especially early on, was 00:49:20.949 --> 00:49:23.929 to actually look at factors like that. Like, 00:49:23.969 --> 00:49:27.250 if you froze a body, does that affect the research 00:49:27.250 --> 00:49:30.880 you're doing? You know, if you, You know, if 00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:32.880 they've been on autopsy, does that affect the 00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:35.699 research you're doing? And in some cases, it's 00:49:35.699 --> 00:49:38.619 a definite yes. In some cases, it's like, no, 00:49:38.739 --> 00:49:40.599 that's not going to affect the questions that 00:49:40.599 --> 00:49:43.820 I'm asking. And you have to always take that 00:49:43.820 --> 00:49:50.139 into consideration. Recently, I've noticed there's 00:49:50.139 --> 00:49:52.139 been a number of studies, because I had to do 00:49:52.139 --> 00:49:56.739 it for my doctoral research, a number of studies 00:49:56.739 --> 00:50:00.969 that have found there's a rather wide disconnect 00:50:00.969 --> 00:50:07.329 between the number of people that say donating 00:50:07.329 --> 00:50:12.329 for anatomical research is a good thing for society 00:50:12.329 --> 00:50:18.889 versus those that actually do donate. Do you 00:50:18.889 --> 00:50:22.969 find that with your research, with the research 00:50:22.969 --> 00:50:28.820 at these facilities, that there's a... large 00:50:28.820 --> 00:50:31.659 number of people that would say yes this is a 00:50:31.659 --> 00:50:36.099 great thing but joe blow over here should be 00:50:36.099 --> 00:50:38.960 the one that donates i it's just it's not for 00:50:38.960 --> 00:50:42.920 me sure we get that we get that all the time 00:50:42.920 --> 00:50:45.679 i mean you have people that are just you know 00:50:45.679 --> 00:50:48.019 and you know that's the truth the thing is that 00:50:48.019 --> 00:50:58.570 with being associated with a deconcision or super 00:50:58.570 --> 00:51:02.630 fascinated and want to know every detail and 00:51:02.630 --> 00:51:07.349 then there are people who think that what you're 00:51:07.349 --> 00:51:10.530 doing is really important and cool but they don't 00:51:10.530 --> 00:51:13.289 want you to tell them anything about it and then 00:51:13.289 --> 00:51:16.030 of course there are those people that just find 00:51:16.030 --> 00:51:19.150 you know just say that it's just not you know 00:51:19.150 --> 00:51:24.309 i say for like a lot of our audience that listens 00:51:24.309 --> 00:51:28.019 to this are undergrad students and You know, 00:51:28.039 --> 00:51:30.119 a lot of times you don't necessarily get the 00:51:30.119 --> 00:51:34.219 opportunity in high school and things like that 00:51:34.219 --> 00:51:38.500 to see a dead body or see decomposition and things 00:51:38.500 --> 00:51:42.260 like that. Do you, I guess, like in your programs 00:51:42.260 --> 00:51:46.139 or when giving tours or things like that, do 00:51:46.139 --> 00:51:49.519 you have things that you say or do to prepare 00:51:49.519 --> 00:51:51.940 people for what they're about to see and do? 00:51:52.559 --> 00:51:56.409 Or do you find that it... you won't bring some 00:51:56.409 --> 00:51:58.530 like a student on unless they've already shown 00:51:58.530 --> 00:52:02.090 that they can handle those types of things because 00:52:02.090 --> 00:52:05.409 i know i mean like i work with a lot of people 00:52:05.409 --> 00:52:07.989 and a lot of anthropologists and some people 00:52:07.989 --> 00:52:10.949 just don't like quote unquote the fleshy bits 00:52:10.949 --> 00:52:17.030 at all um but i think most people have a an idea 00:52:17.030 --> 00:52:19.250 whether that's going to be true for them or not 00:52:19.250 --> 00:52:23.289 there there are incidents that, you know, where 00:52:23.289 --> 00:52:25.650 I had a graduate student one time, for example, 00:52:25.710 --> 00:52:29.429 that we were, I was actually looking at some 00:52:29.429 --> 00:52:31.610 pictures from a game camera that we had on a 00:52:31.610 --> 00:52:34.530 body and realized that when she would go out 00:52:34.530 --> 00:52:36.429 and take pictures of them, she would close her 00:52:36.429 --> 00:52:40.389 eyes and look away. And so it was like, this 00:52:40.389 --> 00:52:45.860 is probably not for you. And I think that's an 00:52:45.860 --> 00:52:49.480 important part of it, too. You know, I think 00:52:49.480 --> 00:52:52.480 most people have less of a reaction than they 00:52:52.480 --> 00:52:54.280 think they're going to when they actually go 00:52:54.280 --> 00:53:00.940 out to a facility. For a number of reasons, but 00:53:00.940 --> 00:53:04.199 I think it's not as bad as I think it's going 00:53:04.199 --> 00:53:08.760 to be. But I also tell people, you know, it's 00:53:08.760 --> 00:53:10.340 something that you really need to think about 00:53:10.340 --> 00:53:14.860 as far as, like, if you... like with law enforcement, 00:53:14.940 --> 00:53:19.920 because of the position that they're in and stuff 00:53:19.920 --> 00:53:22.440 like that, a lot of times I will, you know, we 00:53:22.440 --> 00:53:25.099 will give, you know, tours to law enforcement 00:53:25.099 --> 00:53:27.519 groups or something like that. And I always tell 00:53:27.519 --> 00:53:30.400 them, think about what it is that you're going 00:53:30.400 --> 00:53:34.800 to be doing because you can't unsee this, right? 00:53:35.320 --> 00:53:37.579 However, most of the time, what these are people 00:53:37.579 --> 00:53:40.710 that are getting. are going to be in a field 00:53:40.710 --> 00:53:44.349 that they're going to see much worse. Anyhow. 00:53:44.710 --> 00:53:47.010 So if anything, it's preparing them a little 00:53:47.010 --> 00:53:51.070 bit for it. I'd say a couple episodes ago, we 00:53:51.070 --> 00:53:54.889 actually talked about vicarious traumas and things 00:53:54.889 --> 00:53:58.429 like that, which I think kind of along the same 00:53:58.429 --> 00:54:00.909 vein of, you think you're prepared and everything's 00:54:00.909 --> 00:54:04.889 kind of fine, but then maybe it's not. Do you 00:54:04.889 --> 00:54:09.500 at the university have any programs? to try to 00:54:09.500 --> 00:54:11.679 help mitigate that on the back end if people 00:54:11.679 --> 00:54:14.460 aren't as okay as they thought they were with 00:54:14.460 --> 00:54:18.000 the type of research they're doing? We don't 00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:21.099 specifically for researchers because, you know, 00:54:21.179 --> 00:54:23.599 I mean, most of them are a lot. Well, a lot of 00:54:23.599 --> 00:54:25.500 our researchers are coming from other institutions 00:54:25.500 --> 00:54:30.019 or something like that. So we do for. for at 00:54:30.019 --> 00:54:32.179 least for a while, I know that the students had 00:54:32.179 --> 00:54:35.460 a group that would meet occasionally and talk 00:54:35.460 --> 00:54:38.280 about, it wasn't, and what they actually found 00:54:38.280 --> 00:54:41.179 was not so much talking about like the cadavers 00:54:41.179 --> 00:54:44.840 out of the facility, but was going out on forensic 00:54:44.840 --> 00:54:47.880 cases where, you know, you can see some pretty 00:54:47.880 --> 00:54:50.380 terrible things that people do to each other. 00:54:51.880 --> 00:54:55.079 Or, you know, going through, you know, burn cases, 00:54:55.320 --> 00:55:02.000 you know, stuff like that. So, There's that. 00:55:02.139 --> 00:55:06.260 And then, of course, most universities have counseling 00:55:06.260 --> 00:55:09.320 available to students, and we always encourage 00:55:09.320 --> 00:55:21.320 that. But I guess the center itself doesn't have 00:55:21.320 --> 00:55:24.300 anything specific like that, except for the fact 00:55:24.300 --> 00:55:27.980 that we've all been there, so there are a lot 00:55:27.980 --> 00:55:31.769 of people to talk to. And, you know, what I find 00:55:31.769 --> 00:55:35.630 is that it may be that a student is not comfortable 00:55:35.630 --> 00:55:37.789 talking to me, but they're comfortable talking 00:55:37.789 --> 00:55:40.989 to, you know, one of the other staff or one of 00:55:40.989 --> 00:55:42.969 the other students or something like that. And 00:55:42.969 --> 00:55:46.650 so usually we can direct people to get the help 00:55:46.650 --> 00:55:51.090 that they want. I don't necessarily mean that 00:55:51.090 --> 00:55:58.150 they need, but that they want. Go ahead, Steph. 00:55:58.809 --> 00:56:03.530 No, you're good. Go ahead. One of the questions 00:56:03.530 --> 00:56:06.570 that I have is, when I was doing my master's 00:56:06.570 --> 00:56:10.690 research at Boston University, we have a facility, 00:56:10.869 --> 00:56:13.829 or they had a facility at the time, that they 00:56:13.829 --> 00:56:18.670 were trying to start up with human remains. But 00:56:18.670 --> 00:56:23.130 the university's president at the time was, foot 00:56:23.130 --> 00:56:28.059 down, this was not going to happen. And a large 00:56:28.059 --> 00:56:32.500 portion of that was NIMBY. They were terrified 00:56:32.500 --> 00:56:39.219 of NIMBY. Not in my backyard. Now, I know your 00:56:39.219 --> 00:56:43.659 facility is part of a larger ranch, but do you 00:56:43.659 --> 00:56:47.760 see that often with these types of facilities 00:56:47.760 --> 00:56:54.019 where, much like with donations, They're excited 00:56:54.019 --> 00:56:57.440 for that. People see the need for these facilities, 00:56:57.480 --> 00:57:01.079 but, you know, they need to be in the middle 00:57:01.079 --> 00:57:04.619 of the desert somewhere way out where no one 00:57:04.619 --> 00:57:12.480 exists. I would say yes and no. But, you know, 00:57:12.480 --> 00:57:16.760 part of that. Well, so I'll give you a little 00:57:16.760 --> 00:57:19.860 background. So I actually went to one time when 00:57:19.860 --> 00:57:21.679 they were opening a facility. I won't talk about 00:57:21.679 --> 00:57:24.199 where I actually went to like a town hall meeting 00:57:24.199 --> 00:57:26.659 and stuff like that. And, you know, there were 00:57:26.659 --> 00:57:28.840 a lot of people. And I remember one guy saying, 00:57:28.940 --> 00:57:32.300 for example, he's like, you know, I used to live 00:57:32.300 --> 00:57:34.059 next to one of these facilities. You could spell 00:57:34.059 --> 00:57:36.980 it three miles away, which is absolutely not 00:57:36.980 --> 00:57:42.480 true. You know, you know, so. Yes, there are 00:57:42.480 --> 00:57:45.360 those aspects of it that it's just like I don't 00:57:45.360 --> 00:57:49.760 want it in my backyard. What we have found is 00:57:49.760 --> 00:57:56.559 that we are as transparent as we can. And not 00:57:56.559 --> 00:58:01.000 only transparent, but I go out of my way to do 00:58:01.000 --> 00:58:04.760 like when, you know, if we have a reporter in 00:58:04.760 --> 00:58:07.849 San Marcos, which is where, you know. Texas state 00:58:07.849 --> 00:58:10.309 staff that calls me and says, we would like to 00:58:10.309 --> 00:58:13.769 do a, you know, a story on this. I jumped to 00:58:13.769 --> 00:58:17.030 it. And why is that? Because I want the people 00:58:17.030 --> 00:58:21.510 of San Marcos to know what happens to bodies 00:58:21.510 --> 00:58:25.750 out there. Right. I don't, what I don't want 00:58:25.750 --> 00:58:29.590 is them saying, Oh, I wonder what they do with 00:58:29.590 --> 00:58:32.949 those bodies out there, you know, and then, you 00:58:32.949 --> 00:58:37.329 know, they can go from, you know, all kinds of 00:58:37.329 --> 00:58:39.710 conspiracy theories and everything else, right? 00:58:40.289 --> 00:58:42.389 If they know what's happening, they can either 00:58:42.389 --> 00:58:44.469 agree with it or disagree with it, but they know 00:58:44.469 --> 00:58:49.989 what's happening. And they also, you know, I 00:58:49.989 --> 00:58:52.070 mean, like I said, we are a big facility, so 00:58:52.070 --> 00:58:54.989 it makes it a little more difficult than, you 00:58:54.989 --> 00:58:57.289 know, some of the smaller facilities that are 00:58:57.289 --> 00:58:59.989 more, you know, centrally located or something 00:58:59.989 --> 00:59:05.760 like that. But they realize that, you know, they 00:59:05.760 --> 00:59:09.300 can't smell it and the vultures aren't all over 00:59:09.300 --> 00:59:12.300 their houses and the vulture the one of the things 00:59:12.300 --> 00:59:14.079 that we get all the time is oh vultures are going 00:59:14.079 --> 00:59:17.260 to carry the bones and drop them in my yard or 00:59:17.260 --> 00:59:19.260 something like that and after a while they realize 00:59:19.260 --> 00:59:22.110 that that's not true and you also can talk to 00:59:22.110 --> 00:59:25.309 them about the fact that you know vultures actually 00:59:25.309 --> 00:59:28.329 don't carry off bones at all and the research 00:59:28.329 --> 00:59:31.610 behind that and you know so actually the other 00:59:31.610 --> 00:59:35.530 one we get a lot is associated with oh the vultures 00:59:35.530 --> 00:59:38.570 are eating the dead people and they're flying 00:59:38.570 --> 00:59:44.250 over and roosting in our trees so and a lot of 00:59:44.250 --> 00:59:51.619 that is just providing the education and And 00:59:51.619 --> 00:59:54.820 also treating it as that's a legitimate, you 00:59:54.820 --> 00:59:57.960 know, concern. Here's the research that's been 00:59:57.960 --> 01:00:01.119 done on that. And that's why we are not concerned 01:00:01.119 --> 01:00:03.760 about it. And if we were concerned about it, 01:00:03.800 --> 01:00:07.579 trust me, we wouldn't be doing it, right? We 01:00:07.579 --> 01:00:11.019 also get this with groundwater. And so, like, 01:00:11.039 --> 01:00:13.039 we've done research that, you know, it's like, 01:00:13.199 --> 01:00:15.800 okay, that's a legitimate thing. Maybe the body, 01:00:15.880 --> 01:00:18.380 the fluids are seeping down to the ground and 01:00:18.380 --> 01:00:22.150 reaching the groundwater. well we can do studies 01:00:22.150 --> 01:00:25.989 to look at how far does that decomp fluid actually 01:00:25.989 --> 01:00:29.949 go in the ground and you know where are the aquifers 01:00:29.949 --> 01:00:32.150 and relationship to that and all that kind of 01:00:32.150 --> 01:00:35.590 stuff so you know that i think it's you have 01:00:35.590 --> 01:00:40.230 to you have to take their their concerns seriously 01:00:40.230 --> 01:00:46.730 but you know usually when you show them that 01:00:46.730 --> 01:00:50.670 you have thought about this and You've mitigated 01:00:50.670 --> 01:00:53.949 any risks of that, then they're usually fine. 01:00:55.869 --> 01:00:58.949 There's one other question that's society -based, 01:00:59.010 --> 01:01:02.710 and I know everybody in the field is going to 01:01:02.710 --> 01:01:07.309 pelt me with bricks for saying it, but I have 01:01:07.309 --> 01:01:13.389 to ask. Society loves the term body farm. We 01:01:13.389 --> 01:01:19.019 all in this field run from it like it's... diversion, 01:01:19.139 --> 01:01:28.179 this thing. But why is that? Why is that on our 01:01:28.179 --> 01:01:32.800 end? And how did that term get started and stick 01:01:32.800 --> 01:01:37.719 in society? So the term comes from Patricia Cornwell, 01:01:37.880 --> 01:01:42.219 a novel writer. That's where it comes from. And 01:01:42.219 --> 01:01:46.510 so in that case, If you want to talk about the 01:01:46.510 --> 01:01:48.829 body farm, the body farm is the University of 01:01:48.829 --> 01:01:53.210 Tennessee. All the rest of them are taphonomy 01:01:53.210 --> 01:01:58.130 facilities. As a matter of fact, we have a donor 01:01:58.130 --> 01:02:01.030 that always argues that we should be called the 01:02:01.030 --> 01:02:06.429 body ranch, not the body farm. I think probably 01:02:06.429 --> 01:02:15.099 the reason the anthropologists are so against 01:02:15.099 --> 01:02:19.860 the term, I guess, is mainly just because it 01:02:19.860 --> 01:02:26.519 has kind of a disrespect maybe to it a little 01:02:26.519 --> 01:02:29.179 bit. But I don't know if that's necessarily true 01:02:29.179 --> 01:02:31.820 either. But, you know, I mean, first of all, 01:02:31.840 --> 01:02:34.619 we're not farming bodies, you know, so it's not 01:02:34.619 --> 01:02:37.539 accurate in that sense. And I think as scientists, 01:02:37.559 --> 01:02:41.639 you tend to be like, you know, you try to use 01:02:41.639 --> 01:02:45.699 accurate terminology. So that's part of the thing, 01:02:45.760 --> 01:02:50.699 too. But I think that, you know, I guess I probably 01:02:50.699 --> 01:02:53.280 shouldn't speak for the University of Tennessee, 01:02:53.460 --> 01:02:56.119 but my understanding is that they've actually 01:02:56.119 --> 01:02:59.699 kind of gone with it now. And they're willing 01:02:59.699 --> 01:03:02.699 to say, we are the body farm. And, you know, 01:03:02.699 --> 01:03:07.000 I think, you know, in that sense, it's true. 01:03:08.960 --> 01:03:12.320 And like I said, we never use the term ourselves. 01:03:13.289 --> 01:03:19.329 But I also realized that, you know, there is 01:03:19.329 --> 01:03:23.190 never going to be a reporter that doesn't use 01:03:23.190 --> 01:03:26.050 it, for example. You know, even if you say to 01:03:26.050 --> 01:03:29.190 them, we never use the body farm and we would 01:03:29.190 --> 01:03:32.269 prefer that you don't. The first thing will be, 01:03:32.409 --> 01:03:34.949 you know, Dr. Westcott says that they don't use 01:03:34.949 --> 01:03:36.989 the term body farm and they prefer that we don't. 01:03:37.349 --> 01:03:44.360 But at the body farm. I think some of that is 01:03:44.360 --> 01:03:46.940 probably, I mean, similar to, like, any time 01:03:46.940 --> 01:03:51.500 I try to explain my job to anyone who doesn't 01:03:51.500 --> 01:03:54.000 know what anthropology is, I'll, like, explain 01:03:54.000 --> 01:03:55.679 it. And they'll be like, I think I understand 01:03:55.679 --> 01:03:58.380 that. And I'll be like, you seen the show Bones? 01:03:58.539 --> 01:04:01.760 And then they're like, oh, I get it. And so it's 01:04:01.760 --> 01:04:03.380 like, even though you're like, that's not what 01:04:03.380 --> 01:04:07.420 I do, but you get kind of what's happening. And 01:04:07.420 --> 01:04:09.900 so I feel like using terms like the body farm, 01:04:10.019 --> 01:04:12.780 people are. You can be like, it's not this, it's 01:04:12.780 --> 01:04:14.920 not this, it's not this. But the second you say 01:04:14.920 --> 01:04:17.019 body farm, they're like, oh, I know what you're 01:04:17.019 --> 01:04:19.440 talking about. And then everything clicks. Exactly. 01:04:20.219 --> 01:04:28.059 Yes. And we're coming up on the hour here. And 01:04:28.059 --> 01:04:31.280 I do have one last question, though. We have, 01:04:31.280 --> 01:04:33.280 like we said, we have a number of undergraduate 01:04:33.280 --> 01:04:35.260 students. And for those undergraduate students 01:04:35.260 --> 01:04:39.739 out there, if they are considering conducting 01:04:39.739 --> 01:04:43.099 some sort of decompositional research what's 01:04:43.099 --> 01:04:47.440 some piece of advice that you have for them i 01:04:47.440 --> 01:04:50.380 know like for myself i'd recommend reading some 01:04:50.380 --> 01:04:54.039 of that older research trying to find out what 01:04:54.039 --> 01:04:57.880 gospel theories are um a little bit on the weak 01:04:57.880 --> 01:05:00.679 side but also make sure you have a strong stomach 01:05:00.679 --> 01:05:06.639 what are some of the the wisdom that you would 01:05:06.639 --> 01:05:11.099 give undergraduate research uh uh students when 01:05:11.099 --> 01:05:15.820 it comes to decompositional research you know 01:05:15.820 --> 01:05:18.119 so i i think you know one of the things is that 01:05:18.119 --> 01:05:20.820 you know things have been decomposing you know 01:05:20.820 --> 01:05:26.440 forever and um but it's amazing how little we 01:05:26.440 --> 01:05:30.840 know about decomposition and so one of the things 01:05:30.840 --> 01:05:34.059 that i I always tell people is what you want 01:05:34.059 --> 01:05:36.940 to do is do research that helps you understand 01:05:36.940 --> 01:05:41.019 these processes and then you can apply them. 01:05:41.780 --> 01:05:44.340 One of the problems that I see a lot of times 01:05:44.340 --> 01:05:47.139 is people want to, it's like, I'm going to come 01:05:47.139 --> 01:05:49.719 up with a method for estimating the postmortem 01:05:49.719 --> 01:05:51.599 interval. Well, you don't even understand the 01:05:51.599 --> 01:05:55.360 postmortem interval yet. So start with the basics. 01:05:55.820 --> 01:06:02.460 Ask some very straightforward. Questions that 01:06:02.460 --> 01:06:07.539 that you can get data on sufficient enough data 01:06:07.539 --> 01:06:12.159 to actually answer. Right. And then that will 01:06:12.159 --> 01:06:14.599 lead you to your next question and your next 01:06:14.599 --> 01:06:17.519 questions and things like that. But I think that 01:06:17.519 --> 01:06:20.460 a lot of times people try to start out with the 01:06:20.460 --> 01:06:23.880 big thing and that's you're never going to get 01:06:23.880 --> 01:06:27.380 it there. I mean, that's true. Not only for undergraduates. 01:06:27.420 --> 01:06:31.250 I mean, I see. I see. people in the profession 01:06:31.250 --> 01:06:33.469 that do that. And, you know, they come in, they're 01:06:33.469 --> 01:06:35.110 like, we're going to do this. And I'm like, you 01:06:35.110 --> 01:06:37.269 don't even understand the basics of it. Why don't 01:06:37.269 --> 01:06:41.570 you start with how does this even work? Well, 01:06:41.769 --> 01:06:45.210 Dr. Westcott, with that, I want to thank you 01:06:45.210 --> 01:06:48.489 so much for joining us this evening. It's been 01:06:48.489 --> 01:06:52.409 a great pleasure. I have learned a lot. Same. 01:06:52.510 --> 01:06:55.510 I mean, this is definitely a treat for me because 01:06:55.510 --> 01:07:00.739 I don't. get to do decomp stuff very often. Well, 01:07:01.880 --> 01:07:04.159 thank you very much. I very much enjoyed talking 01:07:04.159 --> 01:07:09.079 to both of you. If you're ever in Central Texas, 01:07:09.199 --> 01:07:13.360 let me know. We'll give you a little tour or 01:07:13.360 --> 01:07:15.980 something. I'll get the paperwork rolling to 01:07:15.980 --> 01:07:19.300 actually do the things that I want to do. I am 01:07:19.300 --> 01:07:24.880 happy to email you the paperwork. I've often 01:07:24.880 --> 01:07:27.980 told my family and friends, if I drop dead, just 01:07:27.980 --> 01:07:32.960 toss me in the woods and watch me rot. No, see, 01:07:33.019 --> 01:07:36.420 I'm like, blow me up, catch me on fire, throw 01:07:36.420 --> 01:07:38.940 me out of a plane, I don't care. Do something 01:07:38.940 --> 01:07:44.420 cool. Along the same lines of emails, though. 01:07:45.389 --> 01:07:48.889 Do you care if we, along with posting of the 01:07:48.889 --> 01:07:51.269 podcast, if we put out maybe your work email 01:07:51.269 --> 01:07:52.789 or something, so if any of our listeners have 01:07:52.789 --> 01:07:55.110 questions, they can reach out to you as well? 01:07:55.510 --> 01:08:03.110 Sure. More than happy. Perfect. I always try 01:08:03.110 --> 01:08:05.889 to answer everybody's emails, so I will do that. 01:08:07.409 --> 01:08:12.599 Sometimes, you know. I'm a little slow and sometimes 01:08:12.599 --> 01:08:16.020 I'm really quick. But one of the things I will 01:08:16.020 --> 01:08:18.500 say to people about emails, if you email me and 01:08:18.500 --> 01:08:21.039 I don't answer you within a certain period, please 01:08:21.039 --> 01:08:24.779 email me again. Because if it gets way down on 01:08:24.779 --> 01:08:27.979 my list, then, you know, it may take me a while. 01:08:28.060 --> 01:08:31.899 But, you know, a lot of times what I may do is 01:08:31.899 --> 01:08:34.340 just say, this is the best person for you to 01:08:34.340 --> 01:08:38.560 talk to about this. You know, they have more 01:08:38.560 --> 01:08:43.100 expertise or something of that nature. Perfect. 01:08:43.260 --> 01:08:45.359 Well, we appreciate you being here for sure. 01:08:45.539 --> 01:08:49.359 And we thank everyone for listening. You know, 01:08:49.420 --> 01:08:52.460 every week we try to, or every week, ooh, no, 01:08:52.579 --> 01:08:55.819 every month we try to get more people on. And 01:08:55.819 --> 01:08:59.100 so if anyone listening has... found interest 01:08:59.100 --> 01:09:01.739 in DCOMP, if you want us to bring on more to 01:09:01.739 --> 01:09:04.579 talk about DCOMP or even more towards the taphonomy 01:09:04.579 --> 01:09:06.960 side of this type of research, or if you have 01:09:06.960 --> 01:09:09.479 other questions that you want us to try to get 01:09:09.479 --> 01:09:12.720 answered, just email us and we can try to set 01:09:12.720 --> 01:09:16.659 up some other interviews to answer those types 01:09:16.659 --> 01:09:19.979 of questions. Ashley, do you have anything you 01:09:19.979 --> 01:09:22.880 want to say? No. Jenna, sorry she couldn't be 01:09:22.880 --> 01:09:25.060 here. She's actually doing some real adulting. 01:09:25.060 --> 01:09:28.640 She's closing on a house. So thanks for joining 01:09:28.640 --> 01:09:31.020 us this week on The Bone Club. We'll be back 01:09:31.020 --> 01:09:37.479 in a few weeks with Jessica Campbell on cold 01:09:37.479 --> 01:09:43.020 cases. All right. Well, thank you again. Thanks, 01:09:43.100 --> 01:09:48.439 everyone. Have a nice evening. All right. Hello, 01:09:48.520 --> 01:09:50.539 friends. We here at The Bone Club understand 01:09:50.539 --> 01:09:52.880 how difficult it is for students to break into 01:09:52.880 --> 01:09:55.850 the field of forensic anthropology. To help with 01:09:55.850 --> 01:09:58.409 that cause, we have decided to monetize in a 01:09:58.409 --> 01:10:02.189 way by setting up an account with Patreon. 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Thank 01:10:44.479 --> 01:10:47.760 you, and may your skeletons always be complete.