is burning down to my bones Unfortunately, this
week, Stephanie and Jenna are both ill, but I
am with you today. And today we have Erin Waxenbaum
from Northwestern University, who is also president
of the American Board of Forensic Anthropology.
She's going to be talking with us today about
the ABFA and certification. Thank you so much.
Ashley, thank you so much for having me. Sorry,
your comrades are ill, but hopefully they'll
recover quickly. I'm hoping so. It's just something
that's just going around in the summer. It's
the summer bug this week. Definitely. But just
because I know you're rather busy, but this week
you're enjoying some very much needed relaxation
time. We ask this of everybody who comes on here,
but just what got you interested in forensic
anthropology? It's a great question. As I tell
a lot of my students and advisees, I'm a very
proud pre -med dropout. In undergrad, I guess
in high school, I was incredibly interested in
science and anatomy in particular. And so, of
course, like a good, you know, strong type A
student, you want to be pre -med. I think that
was just the only option that I saw as available
with an interest in science and anatomy. I also
just thought as a type A student in person, that's
what you should want to do, quote unquote, to,
you know. to be get a good job a good degree
was to go into medicine and very quickly in my
undergrad degree i appreciated that most of my
peers just wanted it more than i did they were
willing to go through those weed out um you know
or go and and gen chem and all those terrible
terrible classes um they were willing to stick
it out and i just wasn't feeling fulfilled. I
wasn't performing as well as I had wanted to.
And on a weird sort of off -the -cuff semester
as electives, I took from the anthropology department
an intro to cultural anthropology class and at
the same time a human osteology class. And both
of those classes were amazing to me. They completely
opened my eyes to a new way to look at science
and people in a way that I had never perceived
possible before. Cultural anthropology was amazing,
but especially with osteology, I realized that
you could like science and anatomy and not be
a medical doctor. That was never a thought that
had ever occurred to me before. I did not know
that was an option. And so that was really an
exciting change for me. And I immediately dropped
my bio neuroscience double major pre -med track,
whatever, and put all my eggs in the anthropology
basket. You'd rather draw famers than hexagons
in organic chemistry. Yes. Oh my goodness. I
mean, there's some people that love organic chemistry,
but I am not one of those people. I've never
met any of those people. They exist. They exist.
I see them at Northwestern all the time. They're
an unusual crop, but they exist in the world.
I have yet to meet those folks. I've worked with...
Some of the med students at the University of
Toronto and just, they always look frazzled.
Well, they got to be out there, right? People
have to become organic chemists and or teach
organic chemistry to future blossoming pre -med
students. So they exist. Well, as I mentioned
in the intro, you're president of the American
Board of Forensic Anthropology. So what is...
the ABFA? What is their function? What do they
do? Absolutely. So the American Board of Forensic
Anthropology, the ABFA, is a nonprofit organization.
It began in 1977 with the intent to improve the
practice and advance the science overall of forensic
anthropology. The purpose of the ABFA is to grant
certificates of qualification or board certification.
to practitioners who meet obviously first application
requirements and also demonstrate competence
in forensic anthropology by passing an examination.
And why is that certification important? You
know, I think certification is important for
a lot of reasons. You know, if we think about
maybe some of your listeners that are in an undergraduate
or a master's or a PhD program, every academic
program out there is different. So whether you're
working toward a BA or an MA or a PhD in anthropology,
when you have that degree conferred, just saying
you have a degree in anthropology doesn't tell
you a lot about what classes you took or what
you learned or, honestly, how well you did. in
those classes how much you really took in so
the idea of certification is to kind of level
the playing field in terms of an evaluation of
one's competency their training and obviously
board certification isn't solely for anthropology
obviously the whole range of medical clinical
fields have board certification there is board
certification for accountants in a cpa lawyers
have a certification examination with the bar
exam So certification as a process just tells
you a little bit about that individual's background,
their training, their experience, whether they've
met certain criteria. And it also demonstrates
that they've been vetted by practitioners in
their own field. They've kind of met the field
standards of what someone should know, how they
should be able to practice, given sort of colleagues
or peers in that field. You mentioned some of
those organizations or some of those different
fields. Does the ABFA actually collaborate with
some of those similar organizations, like with
the American Board of Medical Legal Death Investigators,
the ABFFO, the Board of Toxicologists? Do you
work with those organizations as well to, I guess,
not necessarily mirror? But sort of make sure
that everything is that the standards are sort
of similar across and that everything is is that
there's a similarity between them. Absolutely.
We definitely lean on peer institutions, you
know, just to get perspective sometimes, but
also especially within the fields of forensics.
It's really nice to learn from one another and
to be able to teach one another what. We do.
We don't want to step on toes, but we want to
make sure that practitioners, like, say, forensic
odontologists, have an appreciation for how anthropologists
are trained in terms of teeth. We want to work
with those guys, but we don't want to, like I
said, cross each other too far or step on each
other's toes. Same with medical legal death investigators.
AFS, I know you've talked about AFS a lot on
the program before, is a good sort of umbrella
scenario to bring all sorts of different forensic
specialists together. And at those conferences,
a lot of times, people don't just stay in the
anthropology papers. People often do like to
cross fields and learn from even the general
section, jurisprudence, digital examiners. I
mean, there's so much we can learn from our forensic
colleagues. So it's really, I think, important
to cross those field lines a bit and learn from,
especially within the forensic umbrella, others
within our fields. I know it's probably rare,
but do you have any of the diplomates or those
that are certified? that are certified in multiple
organizations? I know like within the fields
of medicine, you may have people that are certified
in different areas. Do you see that sometimes
within those forensic science boards? Absolutely.
I think the one that... I just see, you know,
qualitatively most commonly is medical legal
death investigation. That's oftentimes how a
lot of people can get full -time employment in
a medical examiner or coroner's office is also
having that board certification in medical legal
death investigation with anthropology that sort
of serves to have a full -time employment in
a medical legal office setting. So very common.
When we see this certification, though, it seems
to be important in death investigation. Is it
equally important in academia and higher education,
or is its importance really just in death investigation?
My perspective, I would qualify to say that I
do think that it's more important in medical
legal death investigation than in academia. And
even to be board certified, you have to be able
to upkeep your casework. You can't purely be,
say, teaching in a university setting and be
able to maintain your certification. You have
to be actively involved in casework. And that's
really important because it ensures that you
are keeping up with new methods that are being
rolled out. casework, maybe peer reviewing with
others in your field. And so it's important to
be both sort of academically minded, but also
be a practitioner in forensic anthropology. What
role does that certification play in death investigation?
Does it have, it has an importance, but is it,
is that importance Sort of a. As a scenario,
you have a case, you can you can you have a practitioner,
you can say that this this practitioner has reached
a level that we say. They are they are that they
have this that this the qualifications that we
think need to be met and. When you have cases
where practitioners are not certified, would
you say that that could be a detriment in the
criminal justice system? The biggest scenario
that I would say this would be relevant to or
would come up, and this could happen obviously
in any potentially forensic case, is if that
case goes to trial and if the forensic anthropologist
that worked on that case is... is subpoenaed
and called to testify in that case when you're
subpoenaed to testify the first thing that you're
asked about is you're vetted for your qualifications
to be able to speak as an expert witness in that
scenario and they ask about your educational
background your training and you are asked if
you have any specific additional qualifications
or certifications that allow you to speak to
you know, the specifics of this particular case
as an expert witness. And so in that scenario,
it is really important to be able to say that
you are board certified because, as I mentioned
before, it's just a demonstration to your qualifications,
the competence that you have and the skills that
you're about to potentially speak to, and that
you've been vetted in your particular field.
So in that scenario, it is very important. And
given that importance, I know the ABFA is in
the process of rolling out this multilevel certification.
And what are the goals of the ABFA with that
multilevel certification? And what are the differences
when looking at that analyst and diplomate levels
between the two? Absolutely. So I can speak a
lot on this subject. Please feel free to stop
me. But this is a new. multi -level certification
that we're rolling out in 2021 the diplomates
voted to amend the bylaws of the abfa to change
the minimum educational requirements for certification
to a master's degree it previously was a phd
and this allowed for the development of a tiered
multi -level certification program And so as
of 2026, the ABFA will offer two certifications,
analyst and diplomate, as you mentioned. And
this will reflect the different levels of involvement
in forensic anthropology casework across practitioners.
It'll create a larger forensic anthropology workforce
to serve the needs of the medical legal system.
And it'll allow a demonstration to the medical
legal community that analysts or diplomates have
been vetted to certain competencies. And those
competencies are directly listed out on the ABFA
website. Overall, the ABFA hopes that multilevel
certification will encourage more practitioners
to seek certification. Previously, it being only
at the PhD level, did appear to be a barrier
for those in terminal master's degree programs.
This could also help normalize board certification
for the discipline and encourage medical legal
agencies to require potentially certification
for employed or contracted forensic anthropologists.
And as I mentioned, competencies were developed
for each certification level. There was a new
application process developed, new certification
exams, new recertification procedures. A lot
of changes have been going on over just a few
short years. And the multi -level certification
program is described as tiered because applicants
now must pass the analyst exam before they can
pursue the diplomate certification. You had mentioned
barriers, and there are some that would argue
that with this multilevel certification, it can
in and of itself pose yet another barrier to
entry into the field, specifically as it relates
to costs and fees. And when you have employers
standardize that they want the certification,
yet they're not willing to cover those costs
and fees. Do you see that as a barrier in and
of itself? And how does the ABFA look at getting
around that barrier to make the field open as
possible so that it is the competency that is
the deciding factor rather than, say, cost and
fees and the bureaucratic side of things? Absolutely.
That's a really great question. The entire goal
of this multi -level certification switch was
to make things inherently more open. It was an
attempt to remove those barriers, because I will
tell you, both in time and cost, traveling to
the analyst exam is a lot cheaper than getting
a PhD. So the intent, and obviously things can
always be improved. And I, for one, am highly
open to making changes and continuing to build
upon the improvements that the organization is
making currently. And we have lots of ideas in
the hopper for additional ways to remove even
further barriers for getting people to that analyst
exam. But we've just been having inherently so
many changes. I mean, literally the whole organization's
mission was is certification right and it was
previously in this one single direction with
diplomate certification and now we're completely
turning it on its head with breaking down that
certification into a multi -level so i think
progress is slow But we're really excited with
the changes that are happening right now. And
I think they're going to continue to come to
try to even, like I said, break down more barriers
because the goal is to make a little bit less
of an exclusive, you know, sort of club. We don't
want that impression and we really do want to
open it up. We have a lot of changes to our website
in terms of, you know. posting our application
materials, posting the rubrics that our applications
are evaluated through, the competencies. Only
in the last few years do we have the reading
list available for analysts. The analyst reading
list just went up. within the past week or so.
And the diplomate one as sort of a demonstration
of what examinees need to be able to, you know,
study and prepare themselves. Previously, it
was just kind of like no forensic anthropology
and everything that's ever happened, which is
a very difficult way to study. I found myself.
So the reading list, we've just been making so
many changes. And like I said, you will continue
to see them. They're not going to stop just with
multi -level certification. So I do think, obviously
I'm biased, but I think that the barriers are
being broken down actively and aggressively.
And I believe they'll continue to do so over
the coming years. I'm glad to see it. I will
make a confession to everybody. That when I was
a little itty -bitty baby anthropologist all
the way back in 2010, we were talking about –
there was discussion of the multilevel stuff
even then. And I had – that even then is when
I said, I want to get my PhD. I want to become
a diplomate. I want to go through all this stuff.
I know this discussion has been going on now
for, what, 15 years? Probably. At least. So it's
good to see it actually happening. Well, and
the thing is, and this does happen in any field,
right? It's not exclusive to forensic anthropology.
But anybody can call themselves a forensic anthropologist.
Like I said, the idea of certification, you know.
That is a demonstration that you've had training,
that you've had coursework, that you've passed
an application process, an examination process
that proves that you're really true to having
that title. Many people across the world might
label themselves forensic anthropologists that
some of us might question to be an appropriate
title. So the idea of certification just, once
again, helps level that field and it speaks to
the medical legal modalities that we engage with
and tells them a little bit something about,
you know, what that, you know, potential employee
or contractor has in terms of past experience
and their ability to work effectively within
their office setting. Yeah, and I'll leave out
the names because I don't want to get any trouble,
but I know of a... situation that took place
in canada where there was a set of remains found
on native lands they called one of my friends
who is uh she works with the agency in ontario
and one of the faculty members i work with who
is an anthropologist but has just nothing with
forensics wondered why they didn't call her because
well she works with that native population yeah
but you don't do anything you probably couldn't
even lay out the skeleton so there's vastly different
realms of expertise there absolutely and i mean
i would say too like a lot of folks might feel
like it's purely osteology, like having an understanding
of anatomy and skeletal biology that makes one
a forensic anthropologist. But I will just quickly
read through the categories of competencies.
Anatomy, documentation, evidence handling, field
recovery, medical legal significance, taphonomy.
post -mortem interval processing, MNI commingling,
biological profile, statistics, pathology, personal
ID, trauma, expert testimony, courtroom procedure,
professional standards, lab operations, accreditation,
and ethics are the main categories in our certification
for both the analysts and diplomate. And that
goes well beyond, you know, anatomy was one.
of those many, many criteria. So just having
a human osteology class doesn't necessarily make
you a forensic anthropologist. No. No, it doesn't.
And it takes a long time, I have found. It does
take a long time. And you learn every single
day. Absolutely. Even as a diplomate, as a practitioner,
you learn with every case. Absolutely. I find
within our field, what I think is rather unique
is the field really can change on a dime or theoretically
can change on a dime next week as far as the
legal side of medical legal. Absolutely. Based
on what a court decides tomorrow. Yeah. That
can happen. It's happened in the past. Absolutely.
So we have to stay on top of that stuff. Yep.
And then even after that, we've gone, what? Well,
I can't think of the exact number of years. Long
time with this Daubert standard. And now we're
starting to get papers questioning whether we've
even interpreted Daubert correctly. So we have
that going with us. And that's all of that is
definitely outside of, you know, the general
education of someone with an anthropology degree
without that sort of forensic specialization
that focuses on those aspects. Absolutely. And
speaking of that, you know, And it's not just
– I know the ABFA is here in America, first word,
American. But Jenna, who unfortunately is not
with us, she is in Canada. She still works in
Canada. I studied at U of T trying to get out.
And we recognize that some countries don't actually
have a certification process. Canada still works
on a mentorship style. Some other countries still
do. Is that more of a difference in population
size? Would you recommend a certification process?
Or is it just, you know, each country has to
be a little different? I know the United Kingdom
does have a certification process. Is it just
each country to each their own? question um you
know firstly i think a part of it is the recognition
of the practice and importance of forensic anthropology
to medical legal death investigation even within
the united states where obviously we have the
abfa there are still many jurisdictions that
either don't have a contract or employ a forensic
anthropologist, or they're just not familiar
with what a forensic anthropologist does. Once
again, from pathologist to coroner in a more
rural county, they just might not have had the
exposure of forensic anthropology. And that's
a big part of what the ABFA strives to do, is
to educate and inform other... relatives, cousins
in our forensic community to help them better
understand the value that we can serve in their
investigation. We've even developed over the
most recent years some social media expertise
to try to get the word out just of the kinds
of cases that forensic anthropologists have helped
solve, the areas that forensic anthropologists
work in, just sort of beefing up expansive understanding
of our organization and our certification. But
obviously not everywhere in the world, like you
mentioned, has certification. But even at the
same time, not everywhere in the world recognizes
forensic anthropology as an academic discipline.
Even anthropology itself is practiced and appreciated
differently in different parts of the world.
But as you mentioned, you know, there is a British
system with the Royal Anthropological Institute.
There's FASC, the Forensic Anthropological Society
of Europe, that has a certification process.
But I do think it's growing because with all
this beyond the TV show Bones, I think there's
just developing a greater understanding through
word of mouth, through organizations like ours
that have helped others appreciate what forensic
anthropologists can do, not only for active casework,
for mass disasters, which are unfortunately happening,
we're seeing daily happening around the world.
And the role of anthropologists is really growing
in those scenarios. So I think time, I think
it'll grow. I think it'll happen. Does the ABFA
work with those sister organizations? And I use
the term sister loosely, like the Royal Anthropological
Society, like FAC. Not directly. We definitely
lean on work with one another. I actually created
the social media accounts that the ABFA has,
and I worked with the individual that works on
social media from FASE to sort of just learn
from them in that. How do you get the word out
there about your organization? What do you promote
on your website? How does it sort of attract
individuals to help sort of broaden that education?
So in that sense, yes. But oftentimes we're working
from, you know, different data sources, different
collections, different methodologies, definitely
different legal systems and rules in that regard.
So there's a little engagement, but not, I would
say, on a daily basis. I know when it comes to
university accreditation, there is. There has
been a push to broaden. And I know with medical
accreditation, there's been a push to broaden.
Has the ABFA seen a similar push to have competition
of some kind in any way? Or do you not see that
in the future, in the near future? Like between
organizations? Between organizations. I mean,
right now, the ABFA is really about the only
anthropological certifying body. Correct? Yes.
In the United States. In the United States. Do
you see in the near future a second organization
that might compete with the ABFA? Or has the
field itself sort of said, you know... We like
what the ABFA is doing. We'll keep with them.
Well, I'll keep my ear to the ground, but I haven't
heard any rumblings as of yet. No, nothing that
I know of, for sure. Well, that's good. For now.
We'll see. As we've talked about before, most
of our audience is made up of undergraduate students.
What would you recommend to them if their ultimate
goal is to be certified by the ABFA? Well, I
think if you are coming up from high school,
undergrad, master's, PhD, what have you, I think
the first and foremost, most important thing
is to be a good anthropologist in all senses
of the word, to have a strong four -field background.
All areas of anthropology come into play in forensic
anthropology. So we don't want to just sort of
exclusively focus on forensics or even biological
anthropology. But to have that archaeological
background, field recovery experience, cultural
and linguistic anthropology are important, too,
in terms of interpretation of a scene and engagement
with families. I would also say, too, to try
to get as much hands -on experience as is humanly
possible. Because it can be, I'm a little old
for this, but a lot of people develop a love
for forensic anthropology these days through
media representations of forensic anthropology
like Bones. I was already deep in it before Bones
came out as a TV show. But obviously, media representations
of any forensic science have very little to do
with the real day -to -day practice. And you
can't know... how you'll feel being in the autopsy
suite or being in the field or even being, you
know, in the stuffy Smithsonian attic of a museum
working on your PhD research until you're put
in those situations. So you have to know that
you really want to do it before you're going
to put your time and money and education in that
direction. Do a field school. Try to get, you
know, lab experience. Look at all of those internship
and field school opportunities over the summer
or during the year. Go abroad. Really try to
get some hands -on experience to know that this
is what you want to do. And obviously all those
things are great to put on your CV, on your resume,
and have for applications as well. But it really
will facilitate for you knowing that you're going
in the right direction. And I think... Very deeply.
I'm an undergraduate student advisor and I tell
students all the time, when you truly have a
passion and you've vetted that passion, you know
that it's true, that comes through in application
materials. People will know that you're really
in it to win it. And that will get you more scholarships,
grants, you know, positive application materials,
all the good things that you want in this ridiculous
academic trajectory that we put ourselves in.
Learn that excavating a pit is bad on your knees,
bad on your back, and it's hot as heck. Absolutely.
My experience is I've always, because whenever
I get called out, it's always been either middle
of summer or middle of Canadian winter. There's
never a middle. There's never in the nice, lovely
fall, never in the nice spring. It's one or the
other. And it's important, and you've got to
know your own personal strengths, too. My master's
is in archaeology, but I know for certain that
I am much happier digging in a body bag than
I am digging in the dirt. And I sometimes have
to dig in the dirt, and I'll do it if I have
to, but I'd much rather dig in a body bag. That's
my personal preference. I enjoy being in the
field on occasion. But I prefer being a lab rat.
I'm more of a lab rat than a field mouse. Yeah.
You got to know your strengths and it doesn't
mean you can't pursue the field. You just have
to know that about yourself and put yourself
in the right direction. I would also encourage
students on the abfa .org website. There is a
tab for students and schools and it lists all
sorts of graduate programs, both terminal masters,
continuing masters and PhD programs. that are
hosted with diplomate faculty on staff there.
So it'd be great to ensure that you're learning
from board certified diplomates when possible.
And you can also reach out and learn from board
certified diplomates in other avenues too, through
field schools, even reaching out and looking
for shadowing opportunities. It just helps to
ensure that you're going in the right direction
and you feel confident with the trajectory that
you're putting yourself on. And the ones I've
met are not all that scary. There's a couple
that are scary, but most of them are not scary.
Absolutely. I mean, I would say, too, another
thing, you know, I know you've mentioned on the
podcast before, but is attending professional
meetings. When I was applying to graduate school,
I was encouraged not only to attend professional
meetings, but to while they're not only talk
to faculty of programs that I was interested
in, but also talk to graduate students, because
you'll really get a good sense of what. program
is a good fit for you personally and your behavior
and your personality um and i just took my little
butt to my first apps meeting by myself no affiliation
super scary um but i found that as you mentioned
everyone was just lovely they were so gracious
they were so kind i was nobody in no program
out of nothing i had graduated with a undergraduate
degree and a master's in archaeology and was
changing my focus to this forensic avenue and
people were just so wonderful, gave great tips,
real truthful, real raw, didn't hold back, which
is often good. And graduate students, the same.
They'll give you the real deal on their program,
the good, the bad, the ugly. That's always a
good thing to do is to... Meet up with the grad
students because the grad students are always
willing to spill the dirt. Absolutely. We always
love spilling the dirt. And we're always around.
You can tell who's who because they're the ones
that actually dress nice. Very true. Except for
me. That's not true. I've seen you at meetings.
Yeah, I occasionally dress nice. When I have
to stand up there, I have to dress. I dress nice.
But other than that, I just... Jeans and an ice
top, that's it. That works. Well, that actually
is all the questions I have. It actually went
much quicker with, unfortunately, Jenna and Stephanie
being ill. Hopefully they'll be much better tomorrow.
I will check in on them in the morning to see
how they're doing. But in the meantime... I want
to thank you, Aaron, for joining us. For those
that want to reach out, where can they go? The
website is theabfa .org, correct? yep that is
correct on there you can find all sorts of information
about the abfa as an organization but you can
also if you're interested in going this into
this field in this direction you can find copies
of our current application material to kind of
see what you would need to apply for analyst
or diplomate board certification you can find
that document list of the competencies to kind
of see what kind of educational background you
would need to move in this direction like i mentioned
there's information about schools graduate programs,
master's programs, PhD programs, field schools
to direct you to, all sorts of resources to help
push you in the right direction along this track
if that is of your interest. I highly recommend
if y 'all are interested looking at that site.
It's been very useful for me. Absolutely. You
can also see a list of all the diplomates that
are currently active as well as where they're
geographically located. So you'd be able to see
if there's a diplomate near you that you could
reach out to for a shadowing opportunity, even
just to talk to. I've had a lot of students just
reach out to me, even just for a one -time Zoom
to talk about. what the field looks like and
to give some direction. And sometimes it's sort
of nice to talk to somebody that's maybe in the
shoes that you're looking to move toward to see,
you know, because no one's in this field, no
one's trajectory is straight. Everyone's trajectory
is always sort of convoluted and twisty and turny.
And so it's sometimes I think. nice to hear that
people don't really talk about people always
talk you know you see them at the end of their
or maybe at the peak of their career trajectory
but you don't often hear about the things that
didn't go right on their path and i think it's
really important um with students i did this
all the time like i started off with saying i'm
a pre -med dropout um but it's important to talk
about things that didn't go right in your academic
and professional career as well as things that
went right because no one's path is easy no one's
path is straight I started as an English lit
major. I mean, come on, there you go. And look
where you are now. But absolutely. I mean, so
it's sometimes nice to hear, to see what path
people took to get to where they are is really
important. And I think often very comforting
for students to know that there is no one way
you've got to do it. Whatever way works for you
in your place and your time is the right way
for you. And there's no right age. You don't
have to start when you're 18 years old. Absolutely.
I mean, I know many people that are current diplomates
that, you know, took a either circuitous route
or had a slightly tangential or different career
and then moved in this direction later on and
are just as equally successful and happy as an
individual as anybody else. Well. It's been great
having you, Dr. Waxenbaum. And it's been a real
pleasure. I will see you later at some point.
I know that. And thank you so much for having
me. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk
about this stuff. And thank you. It's been a
pleasure learning more about the ABFA. And it's
been a pleasure being able to talk to you. Thank
you. Have a very wonderful evening. Enjoy the
rest of your time off. Thank you. Will do. Will
do. Good night, everyone. And we will see you
all in a couple weeks.