WEBVTT 00:00:02.799 --> 00:00:44.549 is burning down to my bones Unfortunately, this 00:00:44.549 --> 00:00:49.049 week, Stephanie and Jenna are both ill, but I 00:00:49.049 --> 00:00:52.810 am with you today. And today we have Erin Waxenbaum 00:00:52.810 --> 00:00:56.409 from Northwestern University, who is also president 00:00:56.409 --> 00:00:59.490 of the American Board of Forensic Anthropology. 00:00:59.609 --> 00:01:01.310 She's going to be talking with us today about 00:01:01.310 --> 00:01:06.750 the ABFA and certification. Thank you so much. 00:01:06.829 --> 00:01:09.049 Ashley, thank you so much for having me. Sorry, 00:01:09.150 --> 00:01:11.090 your comrades are ill, but hopefully they'll 00:01:11.090 --> 00:01:14.620 recover quickly. I'm hoping so. It's just something 00:01:14.620 --> 00:01:17.920 that's just going around in the summer. It's 00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:22.239 the summer bug this week. Definitely. But just 00:01:22.239 --> 00:01:25.659 because I know you're rather busy, but this week 00:01:25.659 --> 00:01:28.900 you're enjoying some very much needed relaxation 00:01:28.900 --> 00:01:33.579 time. We ask this of everybody who comes on here, 00:01:33.659 --> 00:01:36.239 but just what got you interested in forensic 00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:40.650 anthropology? It's a great question. As I tell 00:01:40.650 --> 00:01:43.870 a lot of my students and advisees, I'm a very 00:01:43.870 --> 00:01:48.709 proud pre -med dropout. In undergrad, I guess 00:01:48.709 --> 00:01:51.250 in high school, I was incredibly interested in 00:01:51.250 --> 00:01:54.650 science and anatomy in particular. And so, of 00:01:54.650 --> 00:01:57.329 course, like a good, you know, strong type A 00:01:57.329 --> 00:02:00.290 student, you want to be pre -med. I think that 00:02:00.290 --> 00:02:03.230 was just the only option that I saw as available 00:02:03.230 --> 00:02:06.530 with an interest in science and anatomy. I also 00:02:06.530 --> 00:02:09.110 just thought as a type A student in person, that's 00:02:09.110 --> 00:02:11.930 what you should want to do, quote unquote, to, 00:02:12.110 --> 00:02:14.949 you know. to be get a good job a good degree 00:02:14.949 --> 00:02:18.349 was to go into medicine and very quickly in my 00:02:18.349 --> 00:02:22.689 undergrad degree i appreciated that most of my 00:02:22.689 --> 00:02:26.610 peers just wanted it more than i did they were 00:02:26.610 --> 00:02:29.669 willing to go through those weed out um you know 00:02:29.669 --> 00:02:33.590 or go and and gen chem and all those terrible 00:02:33.590 --> 00:02:36.430 terrible classes um they were willing to stick 00:02:36.430 --> 00:02:39.759 it out and i just wasn't feeling fulfilled. I 00:02:39.759 --> 00:02:42.080 wasn't performing as well as I had wanted to. 00:02:42.659 --> 00:02:45.780 And on a weird sort of off -the -cuff semester 00:02:45.780 --> 00:02:50.180 as electives, I took from the anthropology department 00:02:50.180 --> 00:02:53.659 an intro to cultural anthropology class and at 00:02:53.659 --> 00:02:57.060 the same time a human osteology class. And both 00:02:57.060 --> 00:02:59.939 of those classes were amazing to me. They completely 00:02:59.939 --> 00:03:03.020 opened my eyes to a new way to look at science 00:03:03.020 --> 00:03:06.680 and people in a way that I had never perceived 00:03:06.680 --> 00:03:10.300 possible before. Cultural anthropology was amazing, 00:03:10.439 --> 00:03:13.180 but especially with osteology, I realized that 00:03:13.180 --> 00:03:15.099 you could like science and anatomy and not be 00:03:15.099 --> 00:03:17.300 a medical doctor. That was never a thought that 00:03:17.300 --> 00:03:20.159 had ever occurred to me before. I did not know 00:03:20.159 --> 00:03:22.219 that was an option. And so that was really an 00:03:22.219 --> 00:03:24.479 exciting change for me. And I immediately dropped 00:03:24.479 --> 00:03:28.360 my bio neuroscience double major pre -med track, 00:03:28.620 --> 00:03:32.740 whatever, and put all my eggs in the anthropology 00:03:32.740 --> 00:03:37.680 basket. You'd rather draw famers than hexagons 00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:40.740 in organic chemistry. Yes. Oh my goodness. I 00:03:40.740 --> 00:03:42.560 mean, there's some people that love organic chemistry, 00:03:42.659 --> 00:03:45.719 but I am not one of those people. I've never 00:03:45.719 --> 00:03:48.659 met any of those people. They exist. They exist. 00:03:48.719 --> 00:03:50.560 I see them at Northwestern all the time. They're 00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:54.039 an unusual crop, but they exist in the world. 00:03:56.659 --> 00:04:01.280 I have yet to meet those folks. I've worked with... 00:04:01.610 --> 00:04:03.669 Some of the med students at the University of 00:04:03.669 --> 00:04:08.150 Toronto and just, they always look frazzled. 00:04:10.150 --> 00:04:12.110 Well, they got to be out there, right? People 00:04:12.110 --> 00:04:14.449 have to become organic chemists and or teach 00:04:14.449 --> 00:04:18.430 organic chemistry to future blossoming pre -med 00:04:18.430 --> 00:04:25.050 students. So they exist. Well, as I mentioned 00:04:25.050 --> 00:04:26.730 in the intro, you're president of the American 00:04:26.730 --> 00:04:29.310 Board of Forensic Anthropology. So what is... 00:04:29.689 --> 00:04:32.149 the ABFA? What is their function? What do they 00:04:32.149 --> 00:04:36.009 do? Absolutely. So the American Board of Forensic 00:04:36.009 --> 00:04:39.310 Anthropology, the ABFA, is a nonprofit organization. 00:04:39.649 --> 00:04:44.310 It began in 1977 with the intent to improve the 00:04:44.310 --> 00:04:48.389 practice and advance the science overall of forensic 00:04:48.389 --> 00:04:52.110 anthropology. The purpose of the ABFA is to grant 00:04:52.110 --> 00:04:55.870 certificates of qualification or board certification. 00:04:56.990 --> 00:05:00.389 to practitioners who meet obviously first application 00:05:00.389 --> 00:05:03.269 requirements and also demonstrate competence 00:05:03.269 --> 00:05:06.709 in forensic anthropology by passing an examination. 00:05:08.589 --> 00:05:14.139 And why is that certification important? You 00:05:14.139 --> 00:05:16.019 know, I think certification is important for 00:05:16.019 --> 00:05:17.740 a lot of reasons. You know, if we think about 00:05:17.740 --> 00:05:20.600 maybe some of your listeners that are in an undergraduate 00:05:20.600 --> 00:05:24.279 or a master's or a PhD program, every academic 00:05:24.279 --> 00:05:26.660 program out there is different. So whether you're 00:05:26.660 --> 00:05:29.579 working toward a BA or an MA or a PhD in anthropology, 00:05:30.040 --> 00:05:33.579 when you have that degree conferred, just saying 00:05:33.579 --> 00:05:35.459 you have a degree in anthropology doesn't tell 00:05:35.459 --> 00:05:38.899 you a lot about what classes you took or what 00:05:38.899 --> 00:05:42.449 you learned or, honestly, how well you did. in 00:05:42.449 --> 00:05:45.389 those classes how much you really took in so 00:05:45.389 --> 00:05:48.149 the idea of certification is to kind of level 00:05:48.149 --> 00:05:51.230 the playing field in terms of an evaluation of 00:05:51.230 --> 00:05:54.970 one's competency their training and obviously 00:05:54.970 --> 00:05:58.350 board certification isn't solely for anthropology 00:05:58.350 --> 00:06:01.850 obviously the whole range of medical clinical 00:06:01.850 --> 00:06:04.670 fields have board certification there is board 00:06:04.670 --> 00:06:08.610 certification for accountants in a cpa lawyers 00:06:08.610 --> 00:06:11.069 have a certification examination with the bar 00:06:11.069 --> 00:06:14.750 exam So certification as a process just tells 00:06:14.750 --> 00:06:17.610 you a little bit about that individual's background, 00:06:17.810 --> 00:06:20.569 their training, their experience, whether they've 00:06:20.569 --> 00:06:24.069 met certain criteria. And it also demonstrates 00:06:24.069 --> 00:06:26.689 that they've been vetted by practitioners in 00:06:26.689 --> 00:06:28.750 their own field. They've kind of met the field 00:06:28.750 --> 00:06:31.610 standards of what someone should know, how they 00:06:31.610 --> 00:06:34.910 should be able to practice, given sort of colleagues 00:06:34.910 --> 00:06:41.459 or peers in that field. You mentioned some of 00:06:41.459 --> 00:06:43.899 those organizations or some of those different 00:06:43.899 --> 00:06:49.040 fields. Does the ABFA actually collaborate with 00:06:49.040 --> 00:06:51.339 some of those similar organizations, like with 00:06:51.339 --> 00:06:54.699 the American Board of Medical Legal Death Investigators, 00:06:54.879 --> 00:07:01.480 the ABFFO, the Board of Toxicologists? Do you 00:07:01.480 --> 00:07:07.180 work with those organizations as well to, I guess, 00:07:07.240 --> 00:07:11.920 not necessarily mirror? But sort of make sure 00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:17.019 that everything is that the standards are sort 00:07:17.019 --> 00:07:21.060 of similar across and that everything is is that 00:07:21.060 --> 00:07:24.319 there's a similarity between them. Absolutely. 00:07:24.339 --> 00:07:26.860 We definitely lean on peer institutions, you 00:07:26.860 --> 00:07:29.660 know, just to get perspective sometimes, but 00:07:29.660 --> 00:07:31.959 also especially within the fields of forensics. 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:34.959 It's really nice to learn from one another and 00:07:34.959 --> 00:07:37.660 to be able to teach one another what. We do. 00:07:37.779 --> 00:07:39.720 We don't want to step on toes, but we want to 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:41.800 make sure that practitioners, like, say, forensic 00:07:41.800 --> 00:07:45.399 odontologists, have an appreciation for how anthropologists 00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:48.420 are trained in terms of teeth. We want to work 00:07:48.420 --> 00:07:50.259 with those guys, but we don't want to, like I 00:07:50.259 --> 00:07:52.759 said, cross each other too far or step on each 00:07:52.759 --> 00:07:55.519 other's toes. Same with medical legal death investigators. 00:07:56.839 --> 00:07:58.740 AFS, I know you've talked about AFS a lot on 00:07:58.740 --> 00:08:00.939 the program before, is a good sort of umbrella 00:08:00.939 --> 00:08:03.519 scenario to bring all sorts of different forensic 00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:06.680 specialists together. And at those conferences, 00:08:06.720 --> 00:08:09.540 a lot of times, people don't just stay in the 00:08:09.540 --> 00:08:12.060 anthropology papers. People often do like to 00:08:12.060 --> 00:08:15.839 cross fields and learn from even the general 00:08:15.839 --> 00:08:19.339 section, jurisprudence, digital examiners. I 00:08:19.339 --> 00:08:21.800 mean, there's so much we can learn from our forensic 00:08:21.800 --> 00:08:24.860 colleagues. So it's really, I think, important 00:08:24.860 --> 00:08:28.100 to cross those field lines a bit and learn from, 00:08:28.180 --> 00:08:31.160 especially within the forensic umbrella, others 00:08:31.160 --> 00:08:35.659 within our fields. I know it's probably rare, 00:08:35.740 --> 00:08:40.139 but do you have any of the diplomates or those 00:08:40.139 --> 00:08:43.570 that are certified? that are certified in multiple 00:08:43.570 --> 00:08:46.129 organizations? I know like within the fields 00:08:46.129 --> 00:08:49.090 of medicine, you may have people that are certified 00:08:49.090 --> 00:08:52.710 in different areas. Do you see that sometimes 00:08:52.710 --> 00:08:57.110 within those forensic science boards? Absolutely. 00:08:57.210 --> 00:08:59.740 I think the one that... I just see, you know, 00:08:59.740 --> 00:09:02.299 qualitatively most commonly is medical legal 00:09:02.299 --> 00:09:05.000 death investigation. That's oftentimes how a 00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:07.919 lot of people can get full -time employment in 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:09.820 a medical examiner or coroner's office is also 00:09:09.820 --> 00:09:12.399 having that board certification in medical legal 00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:14.480 death investigation with anthropology that sort 00:09:14.480 --> 00:09:17.759 of serves to have a full -time employment in 00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:21.139 a medical legal office setting. So very common. 00:09:25.360 --> 00:09:29.039 When we see this certification, though, it seems 00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:35.840 to be important in death investigation. Is it 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:39.580 equally important in academia and higher education, 00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:45.879 or is its importance really just in death investigation? 00:09:48.670 --> 00:09:52.090 My perspective, I would qualify to say that I 00:09:52.090 --> 00:09:54.389 do think that it's more important in medical 00:09:54.389 --> 00:09:58.169 legal death investigation than in academia. And 00:09:58.169 --> 00:10:00.789 even to be board certified, you have to be able 00:10:00.789 --> 00:10:03.610 to upkeep your casework. You can't purely be, 00:10:03.669 --> 00:10:06.029 say, teaching in a university setting and be 00:10:06.029 --> 00:10:08.129 able to maintain your certification. You have 00:10:08.129 --> 00:10:10.870 to be actively involved in casework. And that's 00:10:10.870 --> 00:10:12.909 really important because it ensures that you 00:10:12.909 --> 00:10:15.330 are keeping up with new methods that are being 00:10:15.330 --> 00:10:19.039 rolled out. casework, maybe peer reviewing with 00:10:19.039 --> 00:10:21.000 others in your field. And so it's important to 00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:23.419 be both sort of academically minded, but also 00:10:23.419 --> 00:10:29.799 be a practitioner in forensic anthropology. What 00:10:29.799 --> 00:10:35.460 role does that certification play in death investigation? 00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:43.759 Does it have, it has an importance, but is it, 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:52.620 is that importance Sort of a. As a scenario, 00:10:52.740 --> 00:10:56.100 you have a case, you can you can you have a practitioner, 00:10:56.179 --> 00:11:00.120 you can say that this this practitioner has reached 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:07.700 a level that we say. They are they are that they 00:11:07.700 --> 00:11:12.059 have this that this the qualifications that we 00:11:12.059 --> 00:11:17.519 think need to be met and. When you have cases 00:11:17.519 --> 00:11:22.419 where practitioners are not certified, would 00:11:22.419 --> 00:11:26.740 you say that that could be a detriment in the 00:11:26.740 --> 00:11:30.440 criminal justice system? The biggest scenario 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:33.500 that I would say this would be relevant to or 00:11:33.500 --> 00:11:35.919 would come up, and this could happen obviously 00:11:35.919 --> 00:11:37.960 in any potentially forensic case, is if that 00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:40.399 case goes to trial and if the forensic anthropologist 00:11:40.399 --> 00:11:43.470 that worked on that case is... is subpoenaed 00:11:43.470 --> 00:11:46.090 and called to testify in that case when you're 00:11:46.090 --> 00:11:48.269 subpoenaed to testify the first thing that you're 00:11:48.269 --> 00:11:50.590 asked about is you're vetted for your qualifications 00:11:50.590 --> 00:11:53.409 to be able to speak as an expert witness in that 00:11:53.409 --> 00:11:55.970 scenario and they ask about your educational 00:11:55.970 --> 00:11:59.169 background your training and you are asked if 00:11:59.169 --> 00:12:01.450 you have any specific additional qualifications 00:12:01.450 --> 00:12:04.549 or certifications that allow you to speak to 00:12:05.149 --> 00:12:07.149 you know, the specifics of this particular case 00:12:07.149 --> 00:12:09.750 as an expert witness. And so in that scenario, 00:12:09.909 --> 00:12:12.190 it is really important to be able to say that 00:12:12.190 --> 00:12:14.250 you are board certified because, as I mentioned 00:12:14.250 --> 00:12:16.889 before, it's just a demonstration to your qualifications, 00:12:17.230 --> 00:12:20.169 the competence that you have and the skills that 00:12:20.169 --> 00:12:22.590 you're about to potentially speak to, and that 00:12:22.590 --> 00:12:24.269 you've been vetted in your particular field. 00:12:24.929 --> 00:12:30.269 So in that scenario, it is very important. And 00:12:30.269 --> 00:12:35.710 given that importance, I know the ABFA is in 00:12:35.710 --> 00:12:38.210 the process of rolling out this multilevel certification. 00:12:39.210 --> 00:12:44.330 And what are the goals of the ABFA with that 00:12:44.330 --> 00:12:46.929 multilevel certification? And what are the differences 00:12:46.929 --> 00:12:50.970 when looking at that analyst and diplomate levels 00:12:50.970 --> 00:12:54.789 between the two? Absolutely. So I can speak a 00:12:54.789 --> 00:12:56.610 lot on this subject. Please feel free to stop 00:12:56.610 --> 00:13:00.440 me. But this is a new. multi -level certification 00:13:00.440 --> 00:13:05.600 that we're rolling out in 2021 the diplomates 00:13:05.600 --> 00:13:09.419 voted to amend the bylaws of the abfa to change 00:13:09.419 --> 00:13:12.240 the minimum educational requirements for certification 00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:16.360 to a master's degree it previously was a phd 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:19.600 and this allowed for the development of a tiered 00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:23.259 multi -level certification program And so as 00:13:23.259 --> 00:13:27.279 of 2026, the ABFA will offer two certifications, 00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:30.559 analyst and diplomate, as you mentioned. And 00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:32.940 this will reflect the different levels of involvement 00:13:32.940 --> 00:13:35.860 in forensic anthropology casework across practitioners. 00:13:36.820 --> 00:13:39.519 It'll create a larger forensic anthropology workforce 00:13:39.519 --> 00:13:42.799 to serve the needs of the medical legal system. 00:13:43.690 --> 00:13:46.529 And it'll allow a demonstration to the medical 00:13:46.529 --> 00:13:49.889 legal community that analysts or diplomates have 00:13:49.889 --> 00:13:52.570 been vetted to certain competencies. And those 00:13:52.570 --> 00:13:56.610 competencies are directly listed out on the ABFA 00:13:56.610 --> 00:14:01.519 website. Overall, the ABFA hopes that multilevel 00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:03.980 certification will encourage more practitioners 00:14:03.980 --> 00:14:07.799 to seek certification. Previously, it being only 00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:10.379 at the PhD level, did appear to be a barrier 00:14:10.379 --> 00:14:13.360 for those in terminal master's degree programs. 00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:16.960 This could also help normalize board certification 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:19.899 for the discipline and encourage medical legal 00:14:19.899 --> 00:14:22.639 agencies to require potentially certification 00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:26.539 for employed or contracted forensic anthropologists. 00:14:27.510 --> 00:14:29.889 And as I mentioned, competencies were developed 00:14:29.889 --> 00:14:32.769 for each certification level. There was a new 00:14:32.769 --> 00:14:35.350 application process developed, new certification 00:14:35.350 --> 00:14:39.590 exams, new recertification procedures. A lot 00:14:39.590 --> 00:14:42.690 of changes have been going on over just a few 00:14:42.690 --> 00:14:45.549 short years. And the multi -level certification 00:14:45.549 --> 00:14:49.769 program is described as tiered because applicants 00:14:49.769 --> 00:14:53.289 now must pass the analyst exam before they can 00:14:53.289 --> 00:15:00.090 pursue the diplomate certification. You had mentioned 00:15:00.090 --> 00:15:05.450 barriers, and there are some that would argue 00:15:05.450 --> 00:15:07.629 that with this multilevel certification, it can 00:15:07.629 --> 00:15:12.110 in and of itself pose yet another barrier to 00:15:12.110 --> 00:15:16.090 entry into the field, specifically as it relates 00:15:16.090 --> 00:15:24.009 to costs and fees. And when you have employers 00:15:24.009 --> 00:15:29.950 standardize that they want the certification, 00:15:30.490 --> 00:15:33.710 yet they're not willing to cover those costs 00:15:33.710 --> 00:15:37.850 and fees. Do you see that as a barrier in and 00:15:37.850 --> 00:15:41.690 of itself? And how does the ABFA look at getting 00:15:41.690 --> 00:15:47.230 around that barrier to make the field open as 00:15:47.230 --> 00:15:51.750 possible so that it is the competency that is 00:15:51.750 --> 00:15:57.820 the deciding factor rather than, say, cost and 00:15:57.820 --> 00:16:03.139 fees and the bureaucratic side of things? Absolutely. 00:16:03.220 --> 00:16:05.799 That's a really great question. The entire goal 00:16:05.799 --> 00:16:09.139 of this multi -level certification switch was 00:16:09.139 --> 00:16:11.539 to make things inherently more open. It was an 00:16:11.539 --> 00:16:14.259 attempt to remove those barriers, because I will 00:16:14.259 --> 00:16:18.659 tell you, both in time and cost, traveling to 00:16:18.659 --> 00:16:20.340 the analyst exam is a lot cheaper than getting 00:16:20.340 --> 00:16:24.509 a PhD. So the intent, and obviously things can 00:16:24.509 --> 00:16:27.009 always be improved. And I, for one, am highly 00:16:27.009 --> 00:16:30.610 open to making changes and continuing to build 00:16:30.610 --> 00:16:32.590 upon the improvements that the organization is 00:16:32.590 --> 00:16:37.190 making currently. And we have lots of ideas in 00:16:37.190 --> 00:16:41.330 the hopper for additional ways to remove even 00:16:41.330 --> 00:16:44.429 further barriers for getting people to that analyst 00:16:44.429 --> 00:16:47.990 exam. But we've just been having inherently so 00:16:47.990 --> 00:16:50.610 many changes. I mean, literally the whole organization's 00:16:51.159 --> 00:16:54.279 mission was is certification right and it was 00:16:54.279 --> 00:16:56.480 previously in this one single direction with 00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:58.840 diplomate certification and now we're completely 00:16:58.840 --> 00:17:02.080 turning it on its head with breaking down that 00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:04.779 certification into a multi -level so i think 00:17:04.779 --> 00:17:07.980 progress is slow But we're really excited with 00:17:07.980 --> 00:17:09.819 the changes that are happening right now. And 00:17:09.819 --> 00:17:12.140 I think they're going to continue to come to 00:17:12.140 --> 00:17:14.180 try to even, like I said, break down more barriers 00:17:14.180 --> 00:17:16.819 because the goal is to make a little bit less 00:17:16.819 --> 00:17:21.779 of an exclusive, you know, sort of club. We don't 00:17:21.779 --> 00:17:23.480 want that impression and we really do want to 00:17:23.480 --> 00:17:25.460 open it up. We have a lot of changes to our website 00:17:25.460 --> 00:17:28.250 in terms of, you know. posting our application 00:17:28.250 --> 00:17:31.490 materials, posting the rubrics that our applications 00:17:31.490 --> 00:17:34.930 are evaluated through, the competencies. Only 00:17:34.930 --> 00:17:36.690 in the last few years do we have the reading 00:17:36.690 --> 00:17:41.670 list available for analysts. The analyst reading 00:17:41.670 --> 00:17:43.460 list just went up. within the past week or so. 00:17:43.819 --> 00:17:47.319 And the diplomate one as sort of a demonstration 00:17:47.319 --> 00:17:51.380 of what examinees need to be able to, you know, 00:17:51.380 --> 00:17:53.740 study and prepare themselves. Previously, it 00:17:53.740 --> 00:17:56.099 was just kind of like no forensic anthropology 00:17:56.099 --> 00:17:58.819 and everything that's ever happened, which is 00:17:58.819 --> 00:18:02.130 a very difficult way to study. I found myself. 00:18:02.750 --> 00:18:04.569 So the reading list, we've just been making so 00:18:04.569 --> 00:18:06.369 many changes. And like I said, you will continue 00:18:06.369 --> 00:18:08.509 to see them. They're not going to stop just with 00:18:08.509 --> 00:18:11.650 multi -level certification. So I do think, obviously 00:18:11.650 --> 00:18:14.190 I'm biased, but I think that the barriers are 00:18:14.190 --> 00:18:17.490 being broken down actively and aggressively. 00:18:17.630 --> 00:18:19.789 And I believe they'll continue to do so over 00:18:19.789 --> 00:18:23.890 the coming years. I'm glad to see it. I will 00:18:23.890 --> 00:18:29.759 make a confession to everybody. That when I was 00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:32.019 a little itty -bitty baby anthropologist all 00:18:32.019 --> 00:18:35.539 the way back in 2010, we were talking about – 00:18:35.539 --> 00:18:39.160 there was discussion of the multilevel stuff 00:18:39.160 --> 00:18:45.240 even then. And I had – that even then is when 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:49.059 I said, I want to get my PhD. I want to become 00:18:49.059 --> 00:18:51.960 a diplomate. I want to go through all this stuff. 00:18:54.940 --> 00:18:58.779 I know this discussion has been going on now 00:18:58.779 --> 00:19:06.880 for, what, 15 years? Probably. At least. So it's 00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:10.279 good to see it actually happening. Well, and 00:19:10.279 --> 00:19:13.299 the thing is, and this does happen in any field, 00:19:13.380 --> 00:19:14.920 right? It's not exclusive to forensic anthropology. 00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:18.240 But anybody can call themselves a forensic anthropologist. 00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:21.000 Like I said, the idea of certification, you know. 00:19:21.519 --> 00:19:23.579 That is a demonstration that you've had training, 00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:25.500 that you've had coursework, that you've passed 00:19:25.500 --> 00:19:27.420 an application process, an examination process 00:19:27.420 --> 00:19:30.079 that proves that you're really true to having 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:34.839 that title. Many people across the world might 00:19:34.839 --> 00:19:36.720 label themselves forensic anthropologists that 00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:39.299 some of us might question to be an appropriate 00:19:39.299 --> 00:19:43.210 title. So the idea of certification just, once 00:19:43.210 --> 00:19:45.569 again, helps level that field and it speaks to 00:19:45.569 --> 00:19:49.170 the medical legal modalities that we engage with 00:19:49.170 --> 00:19:51.250 and tells them a little bit something about, 00:19:51.349 --> 00:19:53.970 you know, what that, you know, potential employee 00:19:53.970 --> 00:19:58.470 or contractor has in terms of past experience 00:19:58.470 --> 00:20:00.789 and their ability to work effectively within 00:20:00.789 --> 00:20:04.829 their office setting. Yeah, and I'll leave out 00:20:04.829 --> 00:20:07.369 the names because I don't want to get any trouble, 00:20:07.470 --> 00:20:11.009 but I know of a... situation that took place 00:20:11.009 --> 00:20:17.130 in canada where there was a set of remains found 00:20:17.130 --> 00:20:21.170 on native lands they called one of my friends 00:20:21.170 --> 00:20:26.190 who is uh she works with the agency in ontario 00:20:26.190 --> 00:20:31.289 and one of the faculty members i work with who 00:20:31.289 --> 00:20:35.650 is an anthropologist but has just nothing with 00:20:35.650 --> 00:20:40.920 forensics wondered why they didn't call her because 00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:45.119 well she works with that native population yeah 00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:50.039 but you don't do anything you probably couldn't 00:20:50.039 --> 00:20:55.599 even lay out the skeleton so there's vastly different 00:20:55.599 --> 00:20:59.660 realms of expertise there absolutely and i mean 00:20:59.660 --> 00:21:01.980 i would say too like a lot of folks might feel 00:21:01.980 --> 00:21:04.420 like it's purely osteology, like having an understanding 00:21:04.420 --> 00:21:08.140 of anatomy and skeletal biology that makes one 00:21:08.140 --> 00:21:10.500 a forensic anthropologist. But I will just quickly 00:21:10.500 --> 00:21:14.259 read through the categories of competencies. 00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:19.079 Anatomy, documentation, evidence handling, field 00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:22.519 recovery, medical legal significance, taphonomy. 00:21:23.210 --> 00:21:26.369 post -mortem interval processing, MNI commingling, 00:21:26.529 --> 00:21:30.309 biological profile, statistics, pathology, personal 00:21:30.309 --> 00:21:34.109 ID, trauma, expert testimony, courtroom procedure, 00:21:34.450 --> 00:21:37.710 professional standards, lab operations, accreditation, 00:21:37.769 --> 00:21:40.410 and ethics are the main categories in our certification 00:21:40.410 --> 00:21:43.529 for both the analysts and diplomate. And that 00:21:43.529 --> 00:21:46.029 goes well beyond, you know, anatomy was one. 00:21:46.589 --> 00:21:49.769 of those many, many criteria. So just having 00:21:49.769 --> 00:21:52.670 a human osteology class doesn't necessarily make 00:21:52.670 --> 00:21:58.049 you a forensic anthropologist. No. No, it doesn't. 00:21:58.049 --> 00:22:02.450 And it takes a long time, I have found. It does 00:22:02.450 --> 00:22:06.009 take a long time. And you learn every single 00:22:06.009 --> 00:22:10.009 day. Absolutely. Even as a diplomate, as a practitioner, 00:22:10.230 --> 00:22:16.029 you learn with every case. Absolutely. I find 00:22:16.029 --> 00:22:20.630 within our field, what I think is rather unique 00:22:20.630 --> 00:22:28.990 is the field really can change on a dime or theoretically 00:22:28.990 --> 00:22:34.390 can change on a dime next week as far as the 00:22:34.390 --> 00:22:37.869 legal side of medical legal. Absolutely. Based 00:22:37.869 --> 00:22:45.039 on what a court decides tomorrow. Yeah. That 00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:49.299 can happen. It's happened in the past. Absolutely. 00:22:49.619 --> 00:22:54.720 So we have to stay on top of that stuff. Yep. 00:22:54.759 --> 00:23:02.900 And then even after that, we've gone, what? Well, 00:23:03.019 --> 00:23:05.940 I can't think of the exact number of years. Long 00:23:05.940 --> 00:23:10.819 time with this Daubert standard. And now we're 00:23:10.819 --> 00:23:14.160 starting to get papers questioning whether we've 00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:19.259 even interpreted Daubert correctly. So we have 00:23:19.259 --> 00:23:22.240 that going with us. And that's all of that is 00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:24.900 definitely outside of, you know, the general 00:23:24.900 --> 00:23:27.240 education of someone with an anthropology degree 00:23:27.240 --> 00:23:29.460 without that sort of forensic specialization 00:23:29.460 --> 00:23:34.559 that focuses on those aspects. Absolutely. And 00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:41.349 speaking of that, you know, And it's not just 00:23:41.349 --> 00:23:45.890 – I know the ABFA is here in America, first word, 00:23:45.990 --> 00:23:49.609 American. But Jenna, who unfortunately is not 00:23:49.609 --> 00:23:52.329 with us, she is in Canada. She still works in 00:23:52.329 --> 00:23:58.450 Canada. I studied at U of T trying to get out. 00:23:59.470 --> 00:24:03.170 And we recognize that some countries don't actually 00:24:03.170 --> 00:24:06.849 have a certification process. Canada still works 00:24:06.849 --> 00:24:10.609 on a mentorship style. Some other countries still 00:24:10.609 --> 00:24:14.869 do. Is that more of a difference in population 00:24:14.869 --> 00:24:20.410 size? Would you recommend a certification process? 00:24:20.849 --> 00:24:24.430 Or is it just, you know, each country has to 00:24:24.430 --> 00:24:28.329 be a little different? I know the United Kingdom 00:24:28.329 --> 00:24:32.769 does have a certification process. Is it just 00:24:32.769 --> 00:24:40.640 each country to each their own? question um you 00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:44.140 know firstly i think a part of it is the recognition 00:24:44.140 --> 00:24:47.039 of the practice and importance of forensic anthropology 00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:50.359 to medical legal death investigation even within 00:24:50.359 --> 00:24:52.900 the united states where obviously we have the 00:24:52.900 --> 00:24:55.519 abfa there are still many jurisdictions that 00:24:55.900 --> 00:24:59.259 either don't have a contract or employ a forensic 00:24:59.259 --> 00:25:01.099 anthropologist, or they're just not familiar 00:25:01.099 --> 00:25:04.519 with what a forensic anthropologist does. Once 00:25:04.519 --> 00:25:07.640 again, from pathologist to coroner in a more 00:25:07.640 --> 00:25:10.839 rural county, they just might not have had the 00:25:10.839 --> 00:25:13.440 exposure of forensic anthropology. And that's 00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:16.839 a big part of what the ABFA strives to do, is 00:25:16.839 --> 00:25:21.759 to educate and inform other... relatives, cousins 00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:24.180 in our forensic community to help them better 00:25:24.180 --> 00:25:26.920 understand the value that we can serve in their 00:25:26.920 --> 00:25:29.579 investigation. We've even developed over the 00:25:29.579 --> 00:25:33.299 most recent years some social media expertise 00:25:33.299 --> 00:25:36.099 to try to get the word out just of the kinds 00:25:36.099 --> 00:25:37.859 of cases that forensic anthropologists have helped 00:25:37.859 --> 00:25:40.779 solve, the areas that forensic anthropologists 00:25:40.779 --> 00:25:46.539 work in, just sort of beefing up expansive understanding 00:25:46.539 --> 00:25:50.299 of our organization and our certification. But 00:25:50.299 --> 00:25:52.039 obviously not everywhere in the world, like you 00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:55.319 mentioned, has certification. But even at the 00:25:55.319 --> 00:25:56.799 same time, not everywhere in the world recognizes 00:25:56.799 --> 00:25:58.920 forensic anthropology as an academic discipline. 00:25:59.059 --> 00:26:02.319 Even anthropology itself is practiced and appreciated 00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:03.900 differently in different parts of the world. 00:26:04.680 --> 00:26:06.819 But as you mentioned, you know, there is a British 00:26:06.819 --> 00:26:09.460 system with the Royal Anthropological Institute. 00:26:09.759 --> 00:26:12.359 There's FASC, the Forensic Anthropological Society 00:26:12.359 --> 00:26:15.079 of Europe, that has a certification process. 00:26:16.039 --> 00:26:18.740 But I do think it's growing because with all 00:26:18.740 --> 00:26:21.380 this beyond the TV show Bones, I think there's 00:26:21.380 --> 00:26:23.359 just developing a greater understanding through 00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:26.579 word of mouth, through organizations like ours 00:26:26.579 --> 00:26:29.900 that have helped others appreciate what forensic 00:26:29.900 --> 00:26:32.099 anthropologists can do, not only for active casework, 00:26:32.259 --> 00:26:35.779 for mass disasters, which are unfortunately happening, 00:26:35.859 --> 00:26:37.859 we're seeing daily happening around the world. 00:26:38.119 --> 00:26:40.519 And the role of anthropologists is really growing 00:26:40.519 --> 00:26:43.579 in those scenarios. So I think time, I think 00:26:43.579 --> 00:26:47.119 it'll grow. I think it'll happen. Does the ABFA 00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:51.759 work with those sister organizations? And I use 00:26:51.759 --> 00:26:55.680 the term sister loosely, like the Royal Anthropological 00:26:55.680 --> 00:27:01.529 Society, like FAC. Not directly. We definitely 00:27:01.529 --> 00:27:05.490 lean on work with one another. I actually created 00:27:05.490 --> 00:27:08.150 the social media accounts that the ABFA has, 00:27:08.329 --> 00:27:11.390 and I worked with the individual that works on 00:27:11.390 --> 00:27:15.869 social media from FASE to sort of just learn 00:27:15.869 --> 00:27:17.490 from them in that. How do you get the word out 00:27:17.490 --> 00:27:19.410 there about your organization? What do you promote 00:27:19.410 --> 00:27:21.089 on your website? How does it sort of attract 00:27:21.089 --> 00:27:23.789 individuals to help sort of broaden that education? 00:27:24.730 --> 00:27:28.049 So in that sense, yes. But oftentimes we're working 00:27:28.049 --> 00:27:30.289 from, you know, different data sources, different 00:27:30.289 --> 00:27:32.210 collections, different methodologies, definitely 00:27:32.210 --> 00:27:35.109 different legal systems and rules in that regard. 00:27:35.990 --> 00:27:39.730 So there's a little engagement, but not, I would 00:27:39.730 --> 00:27:48.410 say, on a daily basis. I know when it comes to 00:27:48.410 --> 00:27:54.490 university accreditation, there is. There has 00:27:54.490 --> 00:27:58.609 been a push to broaden. And I know with medical 00:27:58.609 --> 00:28:00.990 accreditation, there's been a push to broaden. 00:28:01.569 --> 00:28:09.109 Has the ABFA seen a similar push to have competition 00:28:09.109 --> 00:28:16.569 of some kind in any way? Or do you not see that 00:28:16.569 --> 00:28:20.940 in the future, in the near future? Like between 00:28:20.940 --> 00:28:23.279 organizations? Between organizations. I mean, 00:28:23.299 --> 00:28:27.200 right now, the ABFA is really about the only 00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:31.779 anthropological certifying body. Correct? Yes. 00:28:31.900 --> 00:28:35.099 In the United States. In the United States. Do 00:28:35.099 --> 00:28:39.240 you see in the near future a second organization 00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:46.000 that might compete with the ABFA? Or has the 00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:49.859 field itself sort of said, you know... We like 00:28:49.859 --> 00:28:54.839 what the ABFA is doing. We'll keep with them. 00:28:55.619 --> 00:28:57.779 Well, I'll keep my ear to the ground, but I haven't 00:28:57.779 --> 00:29:03.640 heard any rumblings as of yet. No, nothing that 00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:11.319 I know of, for sure. Well, that's good. For now. 00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:19.079 We'll see. As we've talked about before, most 00:29:19.079 --> 00:29:22.119 of our audience is made up of undergraduate students. 00:29:23.559 --> 00:29:27.099 What would you recommend to them if their ultimate 00:29:27.099 --> 00:29:31.680 goal is to be certified by the ABFA? Well, I 00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:33.460 think if you are coming up from high school, 00:29:33.539 --> 00:29:36.200 undergrad, master's, PhD, what have you, I think 00:29:36.200 --> 00:29:39.660 the first and foremost, most important thing 00:29:39.660 --> 00:29:42.740 is to be a good anthropologist in all senses 00:29:42.740 --> 00:29:45.619 of the word, to have a strong four -field background. 00:29:46.569 --> 00:29:49.569 All areas of anthropology come into play in forensic 00:29:49.569 --> 00:29:52.289 anthropology. So we don't want to just sort of 00:29:52.289 --> 00:29:54.769 exclusively focus on forensics or even biological 00:29:54.769 --> 00:29:57.529 anthropology. But to have that archaeological 00:29:57.529 --> 00:30:02.150 background, field recovery experience, cultural 00:30:02.150 --> 00:30:04.329 and linguistic anthropology are important, too, 00:30:04.470 --> 00:30:08.170 in terms of interpretation of a scene and engagement 00:30:08.170 --> 00:30:11.589 with families. I would also say, too, to try 00:30:11.589 --> 00:30:14.450 to get as much hands -on experience as is humanly 00:30:14.450 --> 00:30:18.059 possible. Because it can be, I'm a little old 00:30:18.059 --> 00:30:22.380 for this, but a lot of people develop a love 00:30:22.380 --> 00:30:24.440 for forensic anthropology these days through 00:30:24.440 --> 00:30:26.519 media representations of forensic anthropology 00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:30.940 like Bones. I was already deep in it before Bones 00:30:30.940 --> 00:30:34.680 came out as a TV show. But obviously, media representations 00:30:34.680 --> 00:30:38.200 of any forensic science have very little to do 00:30:38.200 --> 00:30:41.880 with the real day -to -day practice. And you 00:30:41.880 --> 00:30:45.799 can't know... how you'll feel being in the autopsy 00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:49.319 suite or being in the field or even being, you 00:30:49.319 --> 00:30:52.279 know, in the stuffy Smithsonian attic of a museum 00:30:52.279 --> 00:30:55.279 working on your PhD research until you're put 00:30:55.279 --> 00:30:57.579 in those situations. So you have to know that 00:30:57.579 --> 00:30:59.640 you really want to do it before you're going 00:30:59.640 --> 00:31:04.079 to put your time and money and education in that 00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:07.990 direction. Do a field school. Try to get, you 00:31:07.990 --> 00:31:10.529 know, lab experience. Look at all of those internship 00:31:10.529 --> 00:31:13.329 and field school opportunities over the summer 00:31:13.329 --> 00:31:17.289 or during the year. Go abroad. Really try to 00:31:17.289 --> 00:31:19.990 get some hands -on experience to know that this 00:31:19.990 --> 00:31:22.009 is what you want to do. And obviously all those 00:31:22.009 --> 00:31:24.730 things are great to put on your CV, on your resume, 00:31:24.869 --> 00:31:28.529 and have for applications as well. But it really 00:31:28.529 --> 00:31:31.029 will facilitate for you knowing that you're going 00:31:31.029 --> 00:31:34.180 in the right direction. And I think... Very deeply. 00:31:34.220 --> 00:31:38.339 I'm an undergraduate student advisor and I tell 00:31:38.339 --> 00:31:40.480 students all the time, when you truly have a 00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:42.880 passion and you've vetted that passion, you know 00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:45.460 that it's true, that comes through in application 00:31:45.460 --> 00:31:47.319 materials. People will know that you're really 00:31:47.319 --> 00:31:51.220 in it to win it. And that will get you more scholarships, 00:31:51.579 --> 00:31:55.319 grants, you know, positive application materials, 00:31:55.559 --> 00:31:58.579 all the good things that you want in this ridiculous 00:31:58.579 --> 00:32:01.579 academic trajectory that we put ourselves in. 00:32:02.859 --> 00:32:07.720 Learn that excavating a pit is bad on your knees, 00:32:07.779 --> 00:32:11.299 bad on your back, and it's hot as heck. Absolutely. 00:32:12.200 --> 00:32:16.299 My experience is I've always, because whenever 00:32:16.299 --> 00:32:19.079 I get called out, it's always been either middle 00:32:19.079 --> 00:32:23.200 of summer or middle of Canadian winter. There's 00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:26.440 never a middle. There's never in the nice, lovely 00:32:26.440 --> 00:32:30.299 fall, never in the nice spring. It's one or the 00:32:30.299 --> 00:32:33.000 other. And it's important, and you've got to 00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:36.200 know your own personal strengths, too. My master's 00:32:36.200 --> 00:32:38.579 is in archaeology, but I know for certain that 00:32:38.579 --> 00:32:40.680 I am much happier digging in a body bag than 00:32:40.680 --> 00:32:43.259 I am digging in the dirt. And I sometimes have 00:32:43.259 --> 00:32:44.759 to dig in the dirt, and I'll do it if I have 00:32:44.759 --> 00:32:48.000 to, but I'd much rather dig in a body bag. That's 00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:54.859 my personal preference. I enjoy being in the 00:32:54.859 --> 00:33:01.740 field on occasion. But I prefer being a lab rat. 00:33:01.819 --> 00:33:04.400 I'm more of a lab rat than a field mouse. Yeah. 00:33:04.500 --> 00:33:07.160 You got to know your strengths and it doesn't 00:33:07.160 --> 00:33:09.099 mean you can't pursue the field. You just have 00:33:09.099 --> 00:33:10.759 to know that about yourself and put yourself 00:33:10.759 --> 00:33:13.119 in the right direction. I would also encourage 00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:17.420 students on the abfa .org website. There is a 00:33:17.420 --> 00:33:22.180 tab for students and schools and it lists all 00:33:22.180 --> 00:33:24.900 sorts of graduate programs, both terminal masters, 00:33:25.299 --> 00:33:28.529 continuing masters and PhD programs. that are 00:33:28.529 --> 00:33:32.910 hosted with diplomate faculty on staff there. 00:33:33.569 --> 00:33:35.750 So it'd be great to ensure that you're learning 00:33:35.750 --> 00:33:38.009 from board certified diplomates when possible. 00:33:38.670 --> 00:33:40.670 And you can also reach out and learn from board 00:33:40.670 --> 00:33:43.269 certified diplomates in other avenues too, through 00:33:43.269 --> 00:33:46.670 field schools, even reaching out and looking 00:33:46.670 --> 00:33:49.029 for shadowing opportunities. It just helps to 00:33:49.029 --> 00:33:51.210 ensure that you're going in the right direction 00:33:51.210 --> 00:33:53.309 and you feel confident with the trajectory that 00:33:53.309 --> 00:33:57.380 you're putting yourself on. And the ones I've 00:33:57.380 --> 00:33:59.420 met are not all that scary. There's a couple 00:33:59.420 --> 00:34:01.599 that are scary, but most of them are not scary. 00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:04.500 Absolutely. I mean, I would say, too, another 00:34:04.500 --> 00:34:05.839 thing, you know, I know you've mentioned on the 00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:07.500 podcast before, but is attending professional 00:34:07.500 --> 00:34:10.519 meetings. When I was applying to graduate school, 00:34:10.739 --> 00:34:13.099 I was encouraged not only to attend professional 00:34:13.099 --> 00:34:15.500 meetings, but to while they're not only talk 00:34:15.500 --> 00:34:17.960 to faculty of programs that I was interested 00:34:17.960 --> 00:34:20.440 in, but also talk to graduate students, because 00:34:20.440 --> 00:34:23.300 you'll really get a good sense of what. program 00:34:23.300 --> 00:34:26.219 is a good fit for you personally and your behavior 00:34:26.219 --> 00:34:31.179 and your personality um and i just took my little 00:34:31.179 --> 00:34:34.619 butt to my first apps meeting by myself no affiliation 00:34:34.619 --> 00:34:37.940 super scary um but i found that as you mentioned 00:34:37.940 --> 00:34:40.300 everyone was just lovely they were so gracious 00:34:40.300 --> 00:34:43.559 they were so kind i was nobody in no program 00:34:43.559 --> 00:34:46.719 out of nothing i had graduated with a undergraduate 00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:49.880 degree and a master's in archaeology and was 00:34:49.880 --> 00:34:52.559 changing my focus to this forensic avenue and 00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:55.239 people were just so wonderful, gave great tips, 00:34:55.400 --> 00:34:59.460 real truthful, real raw, didn't hold back, which 00:34:59.460 --> 00:35:02.159 is often good. And graduate students, the same. 00:35:02.260 --> 00:35:04.320 They'll give you the real deal on their program, 00:35:04.500 --> 00:35:09.659 the good, the bad, the ugly. That's always a 00:35:09.659 --> 00:35:13.889 good thing to do is to... Meet up with the grad 00:35:13.889 --> 00:35:15.469 students because the grad students are always 00:35:15.469 --> 00:35:20.250 willing to spill the dirt. Absolutely. We always 00:35:20.250 --> 00:35:22.510 love spilling the dirt. And we're always around. 00:35:22.730 --> 00:35:25.690 You can tell who's who because they're the ones 00:35:25.690 --> 00:35:31.090 that actually dress nice. Very true. Except for 00:35:31.090 --> 00:35:33.809 me. That's not true. I've seen you at meetings. 00:35:34.409 --> 00:35:37.010 Yeah, I occasionally dress nice. When I have 00:35:37.010 --> 00:35:38.889 to stand up there, I have to dress. I dress nice. 00:35:39.070 --> 00:35:43.079 But other than that, I just... Jeans and an ice 00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:49.659 top, that's it. That works. Well, that actually 00:35:49.659 --> 00:35:53.019 is all the questions I have. It actually went 00:35:53.019 --> 00:35:58.119 much quicker with, unfortunately, Jenna and Stephanie 00:35:58.119 --> 00:36:02.320 being ill. Hopefully they'll be much better tomorrow. 00:36:03.900 --> 00:36:06.280 I will check in on them in the morning to see 00:36:06.280 --> 00:36:09.989 how they're doing. But in the meantime... I want 00:36:09.989 --> 00:36:13.030 to thank you, Aaron, for joining us. For those 00:36:13.030 --> 00:36:17.110 that want to reach out, where can they go? The 00:36:17.110 --> 00:36:21.900 website is theabfa .org, correct? yep that is 00:36:21.900 --> 00:36:24.679 correct on there you can find all sorts of information 00:36:24.679 --> 00:36:27.280 about the abfa as an organization but you can 00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:28.699 also if you're interested in going this into 00:36:28.699 --> 00:36:31.440 this field in this direction you can find copies 00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:34.079 of our current application material to kind of 00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:36.460 see what you would need to apply for analyst 00:36:36.460 --> 00:36:38.920 or diplomate board certification you can find 00:36:38.920 --> 00:36:41.059 that document list of the competencies to kind 00:36:41.059 --> 00:36:43.639 of see what kind of educational background you 00:36:43.639 --> 00:36:46.059 would need to move in this direction like i mentioned 00:36:46.059 --> 00:36:50.150 there's information about schools graduate programs, 00:36:50.289 --> 00:36:52.449 master's programs, PhD programs, field schools 00:36:52.449 --> 00:36:55.090 to direct you to, all sorts of resources to help 00:36:55.090 --> 00:36:57.769 push you in the right direction along this track 00:36:57.769 --> 00:37:01.090 if that is of your interest. I highly recommend 00:37:01.090 --> 00:37:03.090 if y 'all are interested looking at that site. 00:37:03.190 --> 00:37:05.989 It's been very useful for me. Absolutely. You 00:37:05.989 --> 00:37:09.030 can also see a list of all the diplomates that 00:37:09.030 --> 00:37:10.869 are currently active as well as where they're 00:37:10.869 --> 00:37:13.409 geographically located. So you'd be able to see 00:37:13.409 --> 00:37:15.269 if there's a diplomate near you that you could 00:37:15.269 --> 00:37:17.969 reach out to for a shadowing opportunity, even 00:37:17.969 --> 00:37:19.989 just to talk to. I've had a lot of students just 00:37:19.989 --> 00:37:21.789 reach out to me, even just for a one -time Zoom 00:37:21.789 --> 00:37:24.230 to talk about. what the field looks like and 00:37:24.230 --> 00:37:25.989 to give some direction. And sometimes it's sort 00:37:25.989 --> 00:37:29.550 of nice to talk to somebody that's maybe in the 00:37:29.550 --> 00:37:33.090 shoes that you're looking to move toward to see, 00:37:33.269 --> 00:37:35.389 you know, because no one's in this field, no 00:37:35.389 --> 00:37:38.010 one's trajectory is straight. Everyone's trajectory 00:37:38.010 --> 00:37:41.269 is always sort of convoluted and twisty and turny. 00:37:41.750 --> 00:37:44.099 And so it's sometimes I think. nice to hear that 00:37:44.099 --> 00:37:45.739 people don't really talk about people always 00:37:45.739 --> 00:37:47.360 talk you know you see them at the end of their 00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:49.739 or maybe at the peak of their career trajectory 00:37:49.739 --> 00:37:51.960 but you don't often hear about the things that 00:37:51.960 --> 00:37:54.639 didn't go right on their path and i think it's 00:37:54.639 --> 00:37:57.239 really important um with students i did this 00:37:57.239 --> 00:37:59.119 all the time like i started off with saying i'm 00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:01.539 a pre -med dropout um but it's important to talk 00:38:01.539 --> 00:38:04.059 about things that didn't go right in your academic 00:38:04.059 --> 00:38:06.019 and professional career as well as things that 00:38:06.019 --> 00:38:09.980 went right because no one's path is easy no one's 00:38:09.980 --> 00:38:14.329 path is straight I started as an English lit 00:38:14.329 --> 00:38:19.150 major. I mean, come on, there you go. And look 00:38:19.150 --> 00:38:22.090 where you are now. But absolutely. I mean, so 00:38:22.090 --> 00:38:24.389 it's sometimes nice to hear, to see what path 00:38:24.389 --> 00:38:27.369 people took to get to where they are is really 00:38:27.369 --> 00:38:29.269 important. And I think often very comforting 00:38:29.269 --> 00:38:31.889 for students to know that there is no one way 00:38:31.889 --> 00:38:34.030 you've got to do it. Whatever way works for you 00:38:34.030 --> 00:38:36.389 in your place and your time is the right way 00:38:36.389 --> 00:38:41.420 for you. And there's no right age. You don't 00:38:41.420 --> 00:38:45.380 have to start when you're 18 years old. Absolutely. 00:38:45.460 --> 00:38:48.239 I mean, I know many people that are current diplomates 00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:51.199 that, you know, took a either circuitous route 00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:54.179 or had a slightly tangential or different career 00:38:54.179 --> 00:38:56.800 and then moved in this direction later on and 00:38:56.800 --> 00:39:00.000 are just as equally successful and happy as an 00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:07.849 individual as anybody else. Well. It's been great 00:39:07.849 --> 00:39:12.929 having you, Dr. Waxenbaum. And it's been a real 00:39:12.929 --> 00:39:16.349 pleasure. I will see you later at some point. 00:39:16.409 --> 00:39:19.429 I know that. And thank you so much for having 00:39:19.429 --> 00:39:20.750 me. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk 00:39:20.750 --> 00:39:24.130 about this stuff. And thank you. It's been a 00:39:24.130 --> 00:39:28.769 pleasure learning more about the ABFA. And it's 00:39:28.769 --> 00:39:31.530 been a pleasure being able to talk to you. Thank 00:39:31.530 --> 00:39:36.429 you. Have a very wonderful evening. Enjoy the 00:39:36.429 --> 00:39:41.030 rest of your time off. Thank you. Will do. Will 00:39:41.030 --> 00:39:45.829 do. Good night, everyone. And we will see you 00:39:45.829 --> 00:39:46.969 all in a couple weeks.