WEBVTT 00:00:41.100 --> 00:00:43.060 and welcome to another episode of The Bone Club. 00:00:43.420 --> 00:00:46.820 It is I, Ashley, and I'm here with Stephanie 00:00:46.820 --> 00:00:51.219 and Jenna. And we have a very special guest, 00:00:51.320 --> 00:00:54.679 one of my really good friends, Skylar Joseph, 00:00:54.939 --> 00:00:57.899 all the way from the University of Linden in 00:00:57.899 --> 00:01:02.259 the Netherlands. But the reason why she's here 00:01:02.259 --> 00:01:04.939 is because before she went to the Netherlands, 00:01:05.040 --> 00:01:09.180 she worked for a very noble organization, one 00:01:09.180 --> 00:01:13.409 that I've... I wanted to work for one that I 00:01:13.409 --> 00:01:17.290 have long respected, the International Committee 00:01:17.290 --> 00:01:21.349 for the Red Cross. And she's here to talk to 00:01:21.349 --> 00:01:27.030 us today about human rights, humanitarian disasters 00:01:27.030 --> 00:01:31.209 and issues, and what the ICRC and what the role 00:01:31.209 --> 00:01:35.730 of forensic anthropologists play in those broader 00:01:35.730 --> 00:01:41.760 concepts. So welcome, Skylar. Welcome. Yes, yes. 00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:43.859 Thank you, Ashley. I'm happy to be here. Briefly 00:01:43.859 --> 00:01:47.340 introduce yourself and stuff? Yeah, sure. So 00:01:47.340 --> 00:01:50.879 my name is Skylar, and I'm currently one year 00:01:50.879 --> 00:01:56.510 into my PhD at Leiden University. Current project 00:01:56.510 --> 00:01:59.090 is focusing on the missing and deceased migration 00:01:59.090 --> 00:02:02.370 crisis in the Mediterranean, and specifically 00:02:02.370 --> 00:02:05.329 looking at how a lack of state accountability 00:02:05.329 --> 00:02:08.949 and certain state policies affect the people 00:02:08.949 --> 00:02:11.789 who are doing casework. So I want to interview 00:02:11.789 --> 00:02:14.289 humanitarian workers, forensic practitioners, 00:02:14.729 --> 00:02:18.689 and different types of migrant networks who do 00:02:18.689 --> 00:02:21.889 both formal and informal casework looking for 00:02:21.889 --> 00:02:27.240 those who go missing and die at sea. Um, and 00:02:27.240 --> 00:02:30.419 this project is actually, uh, highly influenced 00:02:30.419 --> 00:02:33.259 by like some of the work I was doing at ICRC. 00:02:33.819 --> 00:02:39.419 Um, so ICRC, I, uh, I worked in the forensic 00:02:39.419 --> 00:02:42.979 unit at headquarters in Geneva and I started, 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:46.719 uh, as a, in an associate role, which is like 00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:50.759 the most entry level position you can have. Um, 00:02:50.819 --> 00:02:54.139 and I worked, I worked on a lot of different. 00:02:54.599 --> 00:02:57.879 projects while I was there. I really enjoyed 00:02:57.879 --> 00:03:00.900 my work. I got to engage with a lot of people 00:03:00.900 --> 00:03:04.639 working in the field in our different delegations. 00:03:07.419 --> 00:03:11.919 And so yeah, like the my current project is influenced 00:03:11.919 --> 00:03:16.580 from some of the work I did there. But I didn't 00:03:16.580 --> 00:03:19.560 work too much directly with migration, but I 00:03:19.560 --> 00:03:23.650 more learned about kind of the different ways 00:03:23.650 --> 00:03:28.650 that medical legal systems are failing in general 00:03:28.650 --> 00:03:32.509 around the world, but also specifically in relation 00:03:32.509 --> 00:03:35.650 to migration cases because of the different ways 00:03:35.650 --> 00:03:39.870 that migrants can fall through the cracks of 00:03:39.870 --> 00:03:44.509 the different legal systems and how states don't 00:03:44.509 --> 00:03:47.969 want to take accountability for searching for 00:03:47.969 --> 00:03:52.860 these people. So yeah, that's a little bit about 00:03:52.860 --> 00:03:55.319 me. I'm also a forensic anthropologist, just 00:03:55.319 --> 00:03:58.580 to clarify that. And I work on archaeological 00:03:58.580 --> 00:04:04.280 dig in Egypt as well. I say, I guess my first 00:04:04.280 --> 00:04:08.919 question is, what made you, like, I feel like, 00:04:09.020 --> 00:04:11.500 you know, as anthropologists, a lot of us obviously 00:04:11.500 --> 00:04:16.079 care really deeply about human rights and view 00:04:16.079 --> 00:04:21.230 culture as such a broad, like speaking. concept 00:04:21.230 --> 00:04:24.569 that like i think we think about cultures very 00:04:24.569 --> 00:04:27.269 differently than probably most other people that 00:04:27.269 --> 00:04:28.810 like don't have a background in anthropology 00:04:28.810 --> 00:04:34.329 but like what made you go towards humanitarian 00:04:34.329 --> 00:04:38.370 aid human rights work instead of other like medical 00:04:38.370 --> 00:04:40.750 legal like more traditional i guess quote unquote 00:04:40.750 --> 00:04:46.629 forensic anthropology yeah i mean i i originally 00:04:46.629 --> 00:04:49.680 wanted to pursue forensic anthropology uh because 00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:53.620 i really loved human skeletons like from a very 00:04:53.620 --> 00:04:57.519 young age um i like my mom told me this story 00:04:57.519 --> 00:05:00.279 from when i was about three and there was we 00:05:00.279 --> 00:05:03.480 had a medical encyclopedia with like the pages 00:05:03.480 --> 00:05:06.860 uh with like the bones and the stuff and apparently 00:05:06.860 --> 00:05:08.879 i would just sit there and ask my mom like what 00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:10.779 the names of all the bones were because i couldn't 00:05:10.779 --> 00:05:13.459 read yet uh so she would read the little labels 00:05:13.459 --> 00:05:20.189 um But so I pursued my desire to like learn more 00:05:20.189 --> 00:05:22.470 about the human skeleton because I found it really 00:05:22.470 --> 00:05:25.129 interesting from a young age. But then actually 00:05:25.129 --> 00:05:28.610 when I was in grad school, so I went to the same 00:05:28.610 --> 00:05:31.790 same grad school as Ashley, Boston University. 00:05:32.610 --> 00:05:36.129 And while I was there and I had finally achieved 00:05:36.129 --> 00:05:39.889 like starting my master's, I then started thinking, 00:05:39.949 --> 00:05:43.730 what do I actually want to do with like once 00:05:43.730 --> 00:05:46.439 I get my degree, what do I want to do next? Um, 00:05:46.819 --> 00:05:49.980 cause I hadn't thought that far clearly yet. 00:05:50.040 --> 00:05:52.259 It's like, I want to be a forensic anthropologist, 00:05:52.279 --> 00:05:53.800 but I hadn't thought about what that would mean. 00:05:54.379 --> 00:05:59.579 Um, because in the context of like human rights 00:05:59.579 --> 00:06:03.139 and stuff, I see the different ways that the 00:06:03.139 --> 00:06:07.459 legal system, medical legal system, uh, can be 00:06:07.459 --> 00:06:11.680 very corrupt. Uh, and coming from the U S there's 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:15.810 a lot of, uh, there's a lot of different situations 00:06:15.810 --> 00:06:21.389 where people are unjustly prosecuted um and so 00:06:21.389 --> 00:06:25.370 it made me really like question what I'm what 00:06:25.370 --> 00:06:28.550 my personal role would be comfortable with in 00:06:28.550 --> 00:06:30.310 terms of interacting with this system because 00:06:30.310 --> 00:06:35.290 it's like I don't I wouldn't want to uh essentially 00:06:35.290 --> 00:06:39.370 have the weight of a wrongful conviction like 00:06:39.370 --> 00:06:41.990 on my conscience or knowing I contributed even 00:06:41.990 --> 00:06:47.839 if like uh even if it wasn't like my testimony 00:06:47.839 --> 00:06:51.699 that like caused that to happen, I would still 00:06:51.699 --> 00:07:00.240 feel responsible in some way. And so then I actually 00:07:00.240 --> 00:07:04.000 went to my first AFS conference, my first year 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:05.920 of grad school, I think, and they had a whole 00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:09.319 panel on humanitarian work and mostly ICRC people. 00:07:11.310 --> 00:07:13.350 And I was just like, this, this is what I've 00:07:13.350 --> 00:07:18.529 been, this is what I want to do. And humanitarian 00:07:18.529 --> 00:07:22.170 work also differs from human rights work in that, 00:07:22.189 --> 00:07:26.269 like, I also have an interest in human rights, 00:07:26.310 --> 00:07:29.810 forensics in human rights. But for human rights, 00:07:29.829 --> 00:07:31.810 you're still on that prosecutorial end because 00:07:31.810 --> 00:07:37.050 you are the one that are looking into like genocide 00:07:37.050 --> 00:07:41.439 and war crimes and like. you know executions 00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:44.439 and torture and so you're on the prosecutorial 00:07:44.439 --> 00:07:47.079 side of that whereas the humanitarian side is 00:07:47.079 --> 00:07:49.939 almost strictly for like identification purposes 00:07:49.939 --> 00:07:53.220 or like capacity building and so it's a very 00:07:53.220 --> 00:07:57.300 different role where you're supporting the main 00:07:57.300 --> 00:08:00.399 forensic professionals in that country to make 00:08:00.399 --> 00:08:02.819 sure they're applying the proper methods and 00:08:02.819 --> 00:08:07.779 techniques but you're not interfering with their 00:08:08.600 --> 00:08:12.800 casework if they are uh trying to do either domestic 00:08:12.800 --> 00:08:17.199 or human rights type of casework um and they're 00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:20.040 strictly neutral and help with identifications 00:08:20.040 --> 00:08:22.680 and repatriation so they talk between states 00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:26.399 uh which is why they can't be involved in in 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:31.399 the prosecutorial side of things uh yeah did 00:08:31.399 --> 00:08:34.700 i answer that question fully sometimes i ramble 00:08:35.789 --> 00:08:40.049 That actually leads me to a question I have, 00:08:40.129 --> 00:08:46.750 though, because you separated humanitarian and 00:08:46.750 --> 00:08:51.250 human rights. But what we see today, one of the 00:08:51.250 --> 00:08:54.269 things that we notice if anybody watches the 00:08:54.269 --> 00:08:59.190 news, is there seems to be a rise in conflict. 00:09:03.399 --> 00:09:06.320 A hot war between the United States, Israel, 00:09:06.500 --> 00:09:10.539 and Iran. There's still the hot conflict between 00:09:10.539 --> 00:09:13.759 Israel and Gaza. There's a hot conflict between 00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:20.960 Russia and Ukraine. Even though it just earlier 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:28.980 or late last week settled, you have the peace 00:09:28.980 --> 00:09:33.529 accord between – or peace – deal ceasefire between 00:09:33.529 --> 00:09:40.090 the republic of congo and rwanda so you have 00:09:40.090 --> 00:09:45.570 hot you have conflicts all over the world what 00:09:45.570 --> 00:09:50.750 is the role between the icrc and those conflicts 00:09:50.750 --> 00:09:59.210 and human rights work does the icrc just work 00:10:00.029 --> 00:10:04.470 out and done and come in after the fact? Do they 00:10:04.470 --> 00:10:12.230 act kind of as referees? Or are they in there 00:10:12.230 --> 00:10:15.190 in the middle making sure that civilians are 00:10:15.190 --> 00:10:22.210 protected, trying to ensure that rights of civilians 00:10:22.210 --> 00:10:26.039 and that humanitarian aid can get in? During 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:28.799 those conflicts, what is that role of the ICRC 00:10:28.799 --> 00:10:31.740 during those conflicts and during the human rights 00:10:31.740 --> 00:10:35.159 atrocities that take place during those conflicts? 00:10:36.860 --> 00:10:42.879 Yeah, so the ICRC is a very unique and independent 00:10:42.879 --> 00:10:47.299 organization. So it's different than the UN and 00:10:47.299 --> 00:10:51.700 it's different than like any other type of NGOs, 00:10:51.860 --> 00:10:55.940 even international NGOs. And the ICRC... specifically 00:10:55.940 --> 00:11:00.740 focuses on international humanitarian law, which 00:11:00.740 --> 00:11:06.559 guides the laws of war, essentially. And so the 00:11:06.559 --> 00:11:09.600 forensic unit in ICRC is one small part, but 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:12.240 ICRC on a more broad scale does a lot of things 00:11:12.240 --> 00:11:17.899 related to conflict and post -conflict. So we 00:11:17.899 --> 00:11:23.759 have international humanitarian lawyers who... 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:27.100 do a variety of roles often with negotiating 00:11:27.100 --> 00:11:30.759 between state parties or between armed groups 00:11:30.759 --> 00:11:37.299 they so they often negotiate humanitarian aid 00:11:37.299 --> 00:11:45.179 getting in and how that is distributed they they 00:11:45.179 --> 00:11:49.580 offer services related to like education and 00:11:50.059 --> 00:11:54.700 water and habilitation and economic security. 00:11:55.639 --> 00:11:59.460 They do things relating to protecting children 00:11:59.460 --> 00:12:03.340 and protecting vulnerable populations, prisoners 00:12:03.340 --> 00:12:10.200 of war. Yeah, they do a lot. And then the forensic 00:12:10.200 --> 00:12:13.539 unit specifically, we most closely work with 00:12:13.539 --> 00:12:19.690 the Restoring Family Links unit and the... protection 00:12:19.690 --> 00:12:23.129 data unit and together they form the central 00:12:23.129 --> 00:12:27.330 tracing agency with the forensic unit and that's 00:12:27.330 --> 00:12:31.830 focused on missing persons essentially so connecting 00:12:31.830 --> 00:12:36.929 missing persons and those who die in different 00:12:36.929 --> 00:12:40.470 situations particularly relating to conflict 00:12:40.470 --> 00:12:48.100 and post -conflict situations so in addition 00:12:48.100 --> 00:12:51.299 to that the forensic unit also focuses on like 00:12:51.299 --> 00:12:55.259 on the ground uh capacity building they do lots 00:12:55.259 --> 00:12:59.500 and lots of trainings um i would say that's probably 00:12:59.500 --> 00:13:01.139 one of the biggest things and then they also 00:13:01.139 --> 00:13:05.700 uh will go in and support with like body recovery 00:13:05.700 --> 00:13:09.379 and identification uh for like strictly identification 00:13:09.379 --> 00:13:15.159 purposes uh so like if if you're excavating a 00:13:15.159 --> 00:13:19.090 mass grave specifically for human rights purposes 00:13:19.090 --> 00:13:23.309 different agencies will go in so or they'll go 00:13:23.309 --> 00:13:30.629 in with ICRC and it's like as long as the person 00:13:30.629 --> 00:13:36.210 from ICRC essentially doesn't touch any evidence 00:13:36.210 --> 00:13:38.750 or something where like they are the person who 00:13:38.750 --> 00:13:42.570 would need to testify about that They can go 00:13:42.570 --> 00:13:45.929 in and support just because they are not allowed 00:13:45.929 --> 00:13:48.590 to testify in these types of cases, like they 00:13:48.590 --> 00:13:51.049 can't be the one doing the analysis or things 00:13:51.049 --> 00:13:56.330 like that. And so like a good example of this 00:13:56.330 --> 00:14:01.309 is recently in Gaza where all of the ambulances 00:14:01.309 --> 00:14:03.990 that had been attacked and the crew that had 00:14:03.990 --> 00:14:07.169 been attacked were buried. And so the bodies 00:14:07.169 --> 00:14:11.139 and the vehicles were all buried. And so ICRC 00:14:11.139 --> 00:14:15.320 was there. They had one person there, as far 00:14:15.320 --> 00:14:17.539 as I know. But then you had people from the UN 00:14:17.539 --> 00:14:21.039 and other organizations that were doing the actual 00:14:21.039 --> 00:14:24.820 recovery and casework because ICRC would be there 00:14:24.820 --> 00:14:30.620 to also document the war crimes. But ICRC is 00:14:30.620 --> 00:14:32.809 not going to be the one. prosecuting that. They 00:14:32.809 --> 00:14:35.909 keep all of their information to themselves because 00:14:35.909 --> 00:14:38.889 they need it to be able to do their jobs better 00:14:38.889 --> 00:14:41.789 and negotiating. But they have to stay neutral. 00:14:42.450 --> 00:14:46.769 Neutrality is essential to ICRC's work. Whereas 00:14:46.769 --> 00:14:49.330 like other agencies don't necessarily have to 00:14:49.330 --> 00:14:53.870 be neutral. And so they can and do need to take 00:14:53.870 --> 00:14:56.009 a side when they're investigating these things. 00:14:57.090 --> 00:15:01.840 How do you maintain that neutrality? For me, 00:15:01.879 --> 00:15:07.000 that's a big one. Because as human beings, we're 00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:12.320 naturally not neutral. We like to take sides. 00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:16.460 Particularly when we see suffering, we like to 00:15:16.460 --> 00:15:21.379 take sides. So how does one maintain that neutrality, 00:15:21.559 --> 00:15:27.379 even in suffering? Yeah, so I mean, icrc from 00:15:27.379 --> 00:15:31.299 an organizational standpoint uh they need to 00:15:31.299 --> 00:15:35.059 maintain neutrality to maintain access and that 00:15:35.059 --> 00:15:37.899 goes for other organizations as well but they 00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:41.500 Other organizations have less strict stances 00:15:41.500 --> 00:15:45.100 on neutrality. So like MSF or Doctors Without 00:15:45.100 --> 00:15:47.679 Borders is another one that works in many of 00:15:47.679 --> 00:15:50.919 the same contexts as ICRC, but they will denounce 00:15:50.919 --> 00:15:56.080 conflicts much sooner. ICRC almost never denounces 00:15:56.080 --> 00:16:01.440 a state unless there is literally no possibility 00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:04.679 for them to do their work because things have 00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:11.049 gotten so bad. And so everybody often will point 00:16:11.049 --> 00:16:14.690 out how ICRC knew about the concentration camps 00:16:14.690 --> 00:16:22.929 in Germany during World War II long before that 00:16:22.929 --> 00:16:26.169 information became more publicly known. And everybody 00:16:26.169 --> 00:16:28.269 gets mad because it's like, why weren't you doing 00:16:28.269 --> 00:16:30.850 anything? And it's because they were doing stuff. 00:16:30.870 --> 00:16:33.929 Just nobody knows what ICRC does because they 00:16:33.929 --> 00:16:36.740 can't tell people. And so, like, because they 00:16:36.740 --> 00:16:41.059 were still getting in and able to help some people, 00:16:41.220 --> 00:16:43.919 like, those were the benefits that they were 00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:47.440 counting on. Whereas if they denounced them and, 00:16:47.460 --> 00:16:50.320 you know, leaked all of their confidential information 00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:54.700 to the greater public, while that has more of 00:16:54.700 --> 00:16:57.440 a prosecutorial route, the direct and immediate 00:16:57.440 --> 00:17:01.519 need for whatever the vulnerable population is 00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:06.019 there, they won't get that aid anymore. And so 00:17:06.019 --> 00:17:10.880 it's hard. Neutrality is hard. And yeah, it's 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:13.099 a trade off. It depends on what your goals are. 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:19.240 But I'm thinking more of as the individual, as 00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:23.039 the practitioner. Yeah, I mean, on an individual 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:28.759 level. Would there be, is there, not to force 00:17:28.759 --> 00:17:32.119 the curtain back too much, is there amount of 00:17:32.119 --> 00:17:39.700 turnover? because of burnout dealing with this 00:17:39.700 --> 00:17:45.140 because it's seeing these things and just I can't 00:17:45.140 --> 00:17:51.039 be neutral much longer yeah I mean I think often 00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:59.039 uh yeah I mean it it really comes down to that 00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:02.740 like personal conscience and whether you know 00:18:02.740 --> 00:18:06.579 the work you are doing is more important than 00:18:06.579 --> 00:18:10.740 your own personal stances. Because everybody 00:18:10.740 --> 00:18:14.380 I know who works at ICRC has to be able to talk 00:18:14.380 --> 00:18:17.700 to both sides. That's the purpose of ICRC. And 00:18:17.700 --> 00:18:23.420 so by holding your own personal views back, you 00:18:23.420 --> 00:18:27.539 are able to do that work and help more people. 00:18:28.089 --> 00:18:32.769 Um, and so it's kind of like, um, yeah, it's 00:18:32.769 --> 00:18:34.930 like everybody still has their own opinions. 00:18:35.410 --> 00:18:39.049 Um, and the burn, there is a lot of burnout. 00:18:39.269 --> 00:18:43.930 Uh, there's a lot of burnout, just a flat statement. 00:18:43.970 --> 00:18:47.470 There's a lot of burnout. Like, um, like one 00:18:47.470 --> 00:18:50.390 of my friends is, he's not a forensic person, 00:18:50.490 --> 00:18:53.150 but he is, uh, he has a different goal at ICRC, 00:18:53.230 --> 00:18:59.289 but he is currently in Haiti. Um, And he's really 00:18:59.289 --> 00:19:02.849 been struggling with the pressure and the stress 00:19:02.849 --> 00:19:11.690 and feeling a bit lost, I think, in terms of 00:19:11.690 --> 00:19:14.750 how much help they're actually able to provide. 00:19:17.730 --> 00:19:23.009 Because really complicated contexts also make 00:19:23.009 --> 00:19:28.190 things more challenging. um yeah yeah and then 00:19:28.190 --> 00:19:34.210 like for in for like the forensic unit um it's 00:19:34.210 --> 00:19:36.829 I it's actually for me personally it was the 00:19:36.829 --> 00:19:38.809 healthiest work environment I've ever been in 00:19:38.809 --> 00:19:45.430 my supervisor was amazing um I like Pierre is 00:19:45.430 --> 00:19:48.329 amazing Pierre is still the head of unit he is 00:19:48.329 --> 00:19:53.539 uh the best supervisor I've ever had um And I 00:19:53.539 --> 00:19:56.799 worked closely with Stephen Fonseca who's based 00:19:56.799 --> 00:19:59.960 in South Africa. And he's also amazing. Like 00:19:59.960 --> 00:20:02.900 there are so many really amazing people at ICRC 00:20:02.900 --> 00:20:07.119 who I had the chance to work with. But because 00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:10.380 of the types of like work everyone is doing and 00:20:10.380 --> 00:20:12.200 the pressure of the organization as a whole, 00:20:12.460 --> 00:20:18.079 everybody is overworked. There are not enough 00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:21.119 staff because they don't get enough funding. 00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:24.019 The organization in general doesn't get enough 00:20:24.019 --> 00:20:26.160 funding, but then the forensic unit gets such 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:33.039 a small amount of funding that there's some context 00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:35.660 where there are certain places in Africa where 00:20:35.660 --> 00:20:39.019 one person is supposed to cover six countries. 00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:44.200 And so it's very limited what types of services 00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:46.700 they can provide and what types of help they 00:20:46.700 --> 00:20:48.920 can do because one person is stretched so thin. 00:20:50.829 --> 00:20:56.109 And then at headquarters, there's a lot of infighting 00:20:56.109 --> 00:20:59.190 and territorialness within the organization. 00:21:01.089 --> 00:21:06.210 And so it's stressful in a different way. So 00:21:06.210 --> 00:21:09.250 everybody goes through burnout. They actually 00:21:09.250 --> 00:21:11.789 plan it essentially in the way that they structure 00:21:11.789 --> 00:21:17.130 their leave and stuff because they assume that 00:21:17.130 --> 00:21:19.359 everyone's going to go. and get burnt out and 00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:22.440 so they give you like uh six months or a year 00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:26.140 of like you know potential burnout pay if you 00:21:26.140 --> 00:21:29.480 get like medically diagnosed as burnt out um 00:21:29.480 --> 00:21:33.160 which is good but like everybody goes to like 00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:35.940 burnout like and then they'll recover and then 00:21:35.940 --> 00:21:38.440 they'll like work again until they burn out um 00:21:38.440 --> 00:21:43.359 yeah no i mean in previous weeks we talked about 00:21:44.339 --> 00:21:46.279 Sorry. No, go ahead. In previous weeks, we talked 00:21:46.279 --> 00:21:51.980 about vicarious trauma and how some institutions 00:21:51.980 --> 00:21:55.579 are slow to catch up with kind of caring for 00:21:55.579 --> 00:21:58.299 their people in that way. Do you find, is the 00:21:58.299 --> 00:22:00.740 six months, is that how they're trying to help 00:22:00.740 --> 00:22:02.019 you guys deal with it? Or are there other things 00:22:02.019 --> 00:22:03.960 in place to help you to manage that vicarious 00:22:03.960 --> 00:22:08.599 trauma? Yeah, honestly, they don't do nearly 00:22:08.599 --> 00:22:12.259 enough. I think they do kind of try to compensate 00:22:12.259 --> 00:22:16.220 by just, allowing people to take time off when 00:22:16.220 --> 00:22:19.599 they get burnt out which is good because i mean 00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:24.700 a lot of jobs don't do that um but like it's 00:22:24.700 --> 00:22:26.740 not enough and like the psychological support 00:22:26.740 --> 00:22:28.799 is not enough and most people when they come 00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:30.579 back from missions they're supposed to have like 00:22:30.579 --> 00:22:32.480 a debrief and actually talk about what happened 00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:35.740 and stuff and like that very rarely happens or 00:22:35.740 --> 00:22:38.940 happens properly um like they'll just get sent 00:22:38.940 --> 00:22:42.119 because also between different typically how 00:22:43.079 --> 00:22:47.019 most mobile icrc contracts work uh is like you 00:22:47.019 --> 00:22:49.599 have a contract for like a year and a half and 00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:51.119 then you can choose whether or not you want to 00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:53.119 extend it for another year and a half and then 00:22:53.119 --> 00:22:57.240 you have to move on to a new context um and so 00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:03.119 like in between those missions you often have 00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:05.759 a slightly longer break than normal like rnr 00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:07.539 periods where they allow like they help send 00:23:07.539 --> 00:23:12.839 you back home um And, like, if you're in a very 00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:19.880 intense context, you get more R &R periods. But, 00:23:20.059 --> 00:23:26.259 like, rest is not necessarily enough. And it's, 00:23:26.259 --> 00:23:30.079 like, they try to say that mental health isn't 00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:33.200 stigmatized, but it is. Like, it very much is. 00:23:33.259 --> 00:23:36.700 Because if you have certain diagnoses in your 00:23:36.700 --> 00:23:39.839 medical file, you can't necessarily get posted 00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:42.359 in a field position because they they don't know 00:23:42.359 --> 00:23:46.900 that you're uh that you're not gonna like have 00:23:46.900 --> 00:23:49.519 a breakdown or do something that like could threaten 00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:55.299 um the organization and so it's it's uh like 00:23:55.299 --> 00:23:58.140 everybody's stigmatized against going to get 00:23:58.140 --> 00:24:01.819 help if they're struggling uh and so we did get 00:24:01.819 --> 00:24:05.460 a free subscription to headspace i think yeah 00:24:05.460 --> 00:24:11.210 um So there's that also on top of the like R 00:24:11.210 --> 00:24:15.369 &R. But yeah, it's like ass giving everybody 00:24:15.369 --> 00:24:19.630 a subscription to better help. Yeah, the same 00:24:19.630 --> 00:24:26.009 thing. Yeah. I would say, I guess my question 00:24:26.009 --> 00:24:33.490 with that is, do you find that humanitarian work 00:24:33.490 --> 00:24:38.250 and like ICRC then? I don't know how to word 00:24:38.250 --> 00:24:40.390 this nicely, but like attracts a certain type 00:24:40.390 --> 00:24:43.289 of person who can compartmentalize really well. 00:24:43.670 --> 00:24:46.849 Or do you find that it is, oh, it attracts people 00:24:46.849 --> 00:24:49.029 who care so much and then they get burnt out 00:24:49.029 --> 00:24:50.470 and leave. And then it's a new wave of people 00:24:50.470 --> 00:24:52.589 who care so much and then they burnt out and 00:24:52.589 --> 00:24:55.910 leave. And because I know like for my job, I 00:24:55.910 --> 00:24:58.289 definitely see a lot of that, like you care so 00:24:58.289 --> 00:25:00.789 much. And then in three years, you're like, I'm 00:25:00.789 --> 00:25:03.430 done. And then they peace out and then you get 00:25:03.430 --> 00:25:06.039 a new wave of people. I just was curious if it 00:25:06.039 --> 00:25:09.720 was kind of the same way. I would say it differs 00:25:09.720 --> 00:25:12.799 between the forensic unit and the rest of ICRC, 00:25:12.940 --> 00:25:16.480 probably to varying degrees because it's a big 00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:22.019 organization. But I would say forensic, like 00:25:22.019 --> 00:25:25.000 the forensic unit in general, because I think 00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:27.759 forensic practitioners in general have to compartmentalize 00:25:27.759 --> 00:25:30.640 a lot better. And from like earlier in our careers, 00:25:30.660 --> 00:25:34.400 we made the decision to like. see horrific images 00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:39.319 and, like, be okay with it. Like, not everybody 00:25:39.319 --> 00:25:45.019 at ICRC is prepped like that. A lot of people 00:25:45.019 --> 00:25:48.940 in other units do join because, like, most of 00:25:48.940 --> 00:25:51.779 them have, like, either international law backgrounds 00:25:51.779 --> 00:25:57.579 or international relations, things like that. 00:25:58.380 --> 00:26:01.059 um where they know a lot about global politics 00:26:01.059 --> 00:26:02.640 they know a lot about the conflicts they know 00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:06.079 a lot about the law um but they aren't necessarily 00:26:06.079 --> 00:26:09.660 conditioned to see the effects of war and so 00:26:09.660 --> 00:26:14.380 like one of my friends um we were both associates 00:26:14.380 --> 00:26:18.599 at icrc together at the same time and she but 00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:22.480 she was in the resource mobilization unit um 00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:24.680 and so she worked on like grant writing and stuff 00:26:24.680 --> 00:26:29.130 and then she was uh So she worked there for a 00:26:29.130 --> 00:26:32.750 while and then she was able to get a delegate 00:26:32.750 --> 00:26:35.529 position. And these are the entry level mobile 00:26:35.529 --> 00:26:39.829 positions for different things. But most people 00:26:39.829 --> 00:26:41.750 start as protection delegates where they focus 00:26:41.750 --> 00:26:45.809 mostly on prisoners and missing persons. And 00:26:45.809 --> 00:26:48.970 so they do often work with forensic people. But 00:26:48.970 --> 00:26:51.650 there's a lot of context where we don't have 00:26:51.650 --> 00:26:54.480 forensic people. or we don't have enough forensic 00:26:54.480 --> 00:26:58.279 people. And so then these delegates who are not 00:26:58.279 --> 00:27:01.079 forensic practitioners get sent in to do forensic 00:27:01.079 --> 00:27:03.519 jobs because they think that they don't need 00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:08.019 us. And so they send people with backgrounds 00:27:08.019 --> 00:27:12.779 in like international relations to go do like 00:27:12.779 --> 00:27:17.809 a mass casualty recovery. And they like give 00:27:17.809 --> 00:27:20.109 them like the management of the dead handbook 00:27:20.109 --> 00:27:22.609 and like missing persons forms, essentially, 00:27:22.690 --> 00:27:26.589 and are like, okay, go process this mass death 00:27:26.589 --> 00:27:33.390 scene. And so like, that's going to cause a lot 00:27:33.390 --> 00:27:36.269 of trauma, I assume. That is very different than 00:27:36.269 --> 00:27:39.309 like a forensic practitioner who goes in and 00:27:39.309 --> 00:27:43.410 if not has worked on like a mass grave, has probably 00:27:43.410 --> 00:27:48.250 seen images of mass graves. and has probably 00:27:48.250 --> 00:27:52.670 done some type of mock something, even if they've 00:27:52.670 --> 00:27:57.029 never, well, all our forensic specialists have 00:27:57.029 --> 00:27:59.990 to have a minimum of six to eight years of casework. 00:28:00.410 --> 00:28:06.170 So they've all worked on this type of work. Many 00:28:06.170 --> 00:28:08.569 of the ones who work there have worked on mass 00:28:08.569 --> 00:28:13.529 casualty, mass graves from, honestly, a lot of 00:28:13.529 --> 00:28:23.259 them come out of, post Yugoslavia a lot of them 00:28:23.259 --> 00:28:26.940 started their careers working there or like Rwanda 00:28:26.940 --> 00:28:31.900 like this early 90s start of where forensic humanitarian 00:28:31.900 --> 00:28:35.400 work really started to grow so most people not 00:28:35.400 --> 00:28:37.480 all of them like now now we're getting a wave 00:28:37.480 --> 00:28:41.000 like slightly older older than me that hasn't 00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:43.700 had that experience but still has done a lot 00:28:43.700 --> 00:28:47.079 of casework um but yeah it's still different 00:28:47.079 --> 00:28:50.740 completely different preparation than the rest 00:28:50.740 --> 00:28:54.579 the rest of the organization i have a so like 00:28:54.579 --> 00:28:59.920 i guess when doing the forensic casework in the 00:28:59.920 --> 00:29:02.640 stance of being neutral i know you're saying 00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:07.000 like more often it's just the identity like identification 00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:11.640 purpose part of the forensic casework so like 00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:14.119 for my job we you know create the biological 00:29:14.119 --> 00:29:18.440 profile but in that also have pathologies and 00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:21.180 traumas and things like that which inherently 00:29:21.180 --> 00:29:27.039 are somewhat political in nature and can be lend 00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:30.920 themselves to prosecution in a way does that 00:29:30.920 --> 00:29:34.920 part get done by someone else then or like how 00:29:34.920 --> 00:29:38.490 does that work i guess Yeah, so it depends on... 00:29:38.490 --> 00:29:43.769 So say you're in a post -conflict zone and you 00:29:43.769 --> 00:29:48.029 know you have a mass grave. You need to know 00:29:48.029 --> 00:29:51.170 before you go in what the purpose of excavating 00:29:51.170 --> 00:29:56.450 the mass grave is and if you are trying to prosecute 00:29:56.450 --> 00:29:59.269 certain war crimes because of it. And so if you 00:29:59.269 --> 00:30:02.529 know the mass grave... uh you know probably contains 00:30:02.529 --> 00:30:06.529 victims of uh like torture or mass execution 00:30:06.529 --> 00:30:14.490 um like the person from icrc would not be able 00:30:14.490 --> 00:30:20.150 to essentially directly work on anything that 00:30:20.150 --> 00:30:23.829 will be used in court and so they can be there 00:30:23.829 --> 00:30:26.250 and observe and they can give advice and then 00:30:26.250 --> 00:30:30.240 they can read the case reports and they can maybe 00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:34.220 do their own analysis that is not shared with 00:30:34.220 --> 00:30:40.420 anybody except ICRC. But yeah, like anything 00:30:40.420 --> 00:30:44.500 that will go to court, they can't touch. And 00:30:44.500 --> 00:30:47.079 so other organizations would then take that on. 00:30:49.940 --> 00:30:53.359 Going to what you're working on now with migration, 00:30:53.720 --> 00:30:59.839 I think that's what we, conflict is a, causes 00:30:59.839 --> 00:31:03.400 in itself a huge humanitarian crisis. I think 00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:09.680 the two key areas you can look at are the Gaza 00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:16.240 Strip and Ukraine at the moment. But those two 00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:19.420 also have migration. Well, Gaza's sort of blocked 00:31:19.420 --> 00:31:22.440 off, but for the most part, you have migration 00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:27.920 as another key humanitarian disaster that is 00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:32.890 going on. globally. Now, you work with migration 00:31:32.890 --> 00:31:39.009 through Europe, coming from Africa and East Asia, 00:31:39.130 --> 00:31:44.029 right? Yeah, my project specifically will look 00:31:44.029 --> 00:31:47.670 at Tunisia and Malta as focus countries and a 00:31:47.670 --> 00:31:50.250 bit in Central Mediterranean in general, so also 00:31:50.250 --> 00:31:56.450 Tunisia and Libya. But I am looking at also just 00:31:56.450 --> 00:32:01.180 policies that affect North African predominantly 00:32:01.180 --> 00:32:04.980 migration towards Europe and how European policies 00:32:04.980 --> 00:32:09.000 and agreements with those North African countries 00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:13.099 are also affecting the migration flows and lots 00:32:13.099 --> 00:32:18.099 of other things. I did some work a couple weeks 00:32:18.099 --> 00:32:22.319 with the Reuniting Families Project out of Baylor 00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:27.180 University trying to identify Migrants that were 00:32:27.180 --> 00:32:30.500 found along the Texas -Mexico border, and it's 00:32:30.500 --> 00:32:36.380 interesting the process of just trying to identify, 00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:41.900 but it brings to light some of the questions 00:32:41.900 --> 00:32:50.240 of the problems that are faced among medical 00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:54.230 examiner's offices, coroner's offices. death 00:32:54.230 --> 00:33:01.609 investigation system and how it i i i don't know 00:33:01.609 --> 00:33:04.009 what it's like within europe but here in the 00:33:04.009 --> 00:33:06.789 united states there seems to be a real problem 00:33:06.789 --> 00:33:12.730 where on the political side of things there is 00:33:12.730 --> 00:33:19.990 this fight between either loosening border restrictions 00:33:19.990 --> 00:33:25.210 that allow for migration to increase, or we now 00:33:25.210 --> 00:33:29.930 have the Uber crackdown trying to stop migration 00:33:29.930 --> 00:33:34.950 entirely. But what gets lost in it is that in 00:33:34.950 --> 00:33:39.849 those border states, the medical examiner's office, 00:33:39.869 --> 00:33:44.069 that death investigation system, is all but broken. 00:33:45.120 --> 00:33:48.440 Because they cannot deal with the remains that 00:33:48.440 --> 00:33:53.519 are there. And in your experience, are you seeing 00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:56.619 something similar within Europe, particularly 00:33:56.619 --> 00:34:02.220 around those coastal states that – when it comes 00:34:02.220 --> 00:34:05.460 to those migrants? And I know part of the problem 00:34:05.460 --> 00:34:09.780 is, for instance, like with Spain and Italy telling 00:34:09.780 --> 00:34:12.420 the boats, no, you can just drown in the Mediterranean. 00:34:12.500 --> 00:34:15.400 We're not letting you in. Who deals with those 00:34:15.400 --> 00:34:21.940 remains? Yeah, so I mean, I'll start by saying 00:34:21.940 --> 00:34:25.920 that I think medical legal systems are just broken 00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:30.219 around the world because nowhere gets enough 00:34:30.219 --> 00:34:32.860 funding to actually hire the staff that they 00:34:32.860 --> 00:34:36.460 need. It's not prioritized enough because our 00:34:36.460 --> 00:34:39.360 like Western dominant culture doesn't. like to 00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:41.820 acknowledge death and so like they don't want 00:34:41.820 --> 00:34:43.539 to talk about they don't want to fund it they 00:34:43.539 --> 00:34:47.480 don't like want to do anything about it um and 00:34:47.480 --> 00:34:50.480 then particularly when crises hit whether that's 00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:55.019 war or natural disasters or migration accidents 00:34:55.019 --> 00:34:59.420 other things like this um then then nowhere knows 00:34:59.420 --> 00:35:04.719 how to deal with it um And not to mention also 00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:07.639 ways that they fail in terms of discrimination 00:35:07.639 --> 00:35:11.280 against different populations. And so this actually, 00:35:11.460 --> 00:35:16.920 I had a realization that the connection between 00:35:16.920 --> 00:35:19.500 my previous research on the Missing and Murdering 00:35:19.500 --> 00:35:22.059 Indigenous Women crisis and my current research 00:35:22.059 --> 00:35:25.380 is that failure of medical legal systems. Because 00:35:25.380 --> 00:35:29.380 these are both... very different but very similar 00:35:29.380 --> 00:35:32.719 like case studies essentially of why our systems 00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:39.920 are failing um and so like specifically with 00:35:39.920 --> 00:35:44.099 like my research now and that crossing between 00:35:44.099 --> 00:35:49.059 North Africa and Europe um Europe is currently 00:35:49.059 --> 00:35:52.889 trying to They focus a lot of their energy on 00:35:52.889 --> 00:35:56.530 pushbacks and criminalization and outsourcing, 00:35:56.530 --> 00:35:58.869 externalization of their borders, essentially, 00:35:58.929 --> 00:36:02.309 where they're now paying North African coast 00:36:02.309 --> 00:36:05.690 guards to push migrants back before they leave 00:36:05.690 --> 00:36:08.530 their waters and they're then in European territory. 00:36:09.550 --> 00:36:13.070 um but then you see cases like greece for example 00:36:13.070 --> 00:36:17.309 where they often shoot at boats um because there's 00:36:17.309 --> 00:36:21.170 a legal gray area of like you can shoot at like 00:36:21.170 --> 00:36:24.530 people who are like causing a threat and they 00:36:24.530 --> 00:36:26.610 don't know who's on the boat and so they're invading 00:36:26.610 --> 00:36:32.769 the country like this sort of rhetoric um but 00:36:32.769 --> 00:36:35.860 then you also get criminalization of like humanitarian 00:36:35.860 --> 00:36:38.099 aid workers who are trying to go out and rescue 00:36:38.099 --> 00:36:41.079 people they often aren't allowed to um and they 00:36:41.079 --> 00:36:43.420 have to follow the rules or then they get arrested 00:36:43.420 --> 00:36:46.639 or their boats are seized or both uh or any mix 00:36:46.639 --> 00:36:49.340 of like these deterrent policies to try to get 00:36:49.340 --> 00:36:56.840 less people caring about migrants um i forgot 00:36:56.840 --> 00:36:59.059 if i answered all of your questions i feel like 00:36:59.059 --> 00:37:03.070 i missed something i think you did but um Do 00:37:03.070 --> 00:37:05.849 you think one of the policies that's starting 00:37:05.849 --> 00:37:09.969 to be put into place here is we are now going 00:37:09.969 --> 00:37:14.250 to start sending some of our migrants to Libya, 00:37:14.469 --> 00:37:18.090 to Rwanda? Yeah, that's super illegal. I know 00:37:18.090 --> 00:37:24.469 that's, it's a legally gray area. Not actually. 00:37:25.269 --> 00:37:28.610 It's a legally black area, but the Supreme Court 00:37:28.610 --> 00:37:31.110 has said it's gray. Gray according to the people 00:37:31.110 --> 00:37:38.670 in power, apparently. But will that... And to 00:37:38.670 --> 00:37:41.150 be fair, we're not the ones who came up with 00:37:41.150 --> 00:37:48.690 the idea. The UK under... Was it Boris Johnson 00:37:48.690 --> 00:37:56.710 or was it... Cameron said had a very similar 00:37:56.710 --> 00:37:59.829 policy. No, it wasn't. Are you talking about 00:37:59.829 --> 00:38:03.909 the Rwanda one recently? It was Rishi Sunak who 00:38:03.909 --> 00:38:10.429 wanted to send migrants to Rwanda. And the United 00:38:10.429 --> 00:38:13.630 States is building off that same policy. And 00:38:13.630 --> 00:38:20.380 from someone who is studying migrants and migrant 00:38:20.380 --> 00:38:25.280 policy, is this going to be the new normal with 00:38:25.280 --> 00:38:36.320 states sending migrants not just to third countries, 00:38:36.440 --> 00:38:41.659 but to third continents? Yeah, I mean, at a baseline, 00:38:41.780 --> 00:38:46.920 it's supposed to be very illegal to do that. 00:38:47.970 --> 00:38:52.829 But the gray area is this designation as a safe 00:38:52.829 --> 00:38:57.170 country. Whoever thought Rwanda was a safe country, 00:38:57.329 --> 00:39:03.730 maybe in 10, 15 years. Yeah, and so it has to 00:39:03.730 --> 00:39:07.429 do with whether it's supposed to be... Yeah, 00:39:07.530 --> 00:39:09.690 it has this designation as a safe country, and 00:39:09.690 --> 00:39:11.929 there's these certain parameters that it needs 00:39:11.929 --> 00:39:17.880 to meet, but every place kind of... makes up 00:39:17.880 --> 00:39:20.300 their own designation for which countries they 00:39:20.300 --> 00:39:27.739 consider safe um and and and also it's supposed 00:39:27.739 --> 00:39:30.179 to be the entire country that is safe and so 00:39:30.179 --> 00:39:32.880 some people are try to wiggle around it of like 00:39:32.880 --> 00:39:36.480 oh certain parts of the country are dangerous 00:39:36.480 --> 00:39:39.719 and so we can just send them to a not as dangerous 00:39:39.719 --> 00:39:43.659 place um which is interesting because there are 00:39:43.659 --> 00:39:46.809 discussions in europe now about like whether 00:39:46.809 --> 00:39:49.210 the u .s can still be considered a safe country 00:39:49.210 --> 00:39:52.449 because people are so unsafe in different areas 00:39:52.449 --> 00:39:58.190 or for different reasons um like it most likely 00:39:58.190 --> 00:40:03.550 won't go anywhere um but like they are talking 00:40:03.550 --> 00:40:08.050 about it um which is something um and it's because 00:40:08.050 --> 00:40:10.829 of this you need to be safe everybody needs to 00:40:10.829 --> 00:40:18.340 be safe um yeah I have a question kind of tangentially 00:40:18.340 --> 00:40:21.460 related, I guess, is I know like at AFS, you 00:40:21.460 --> 00:40:24.719 had kind of talked about different like policies 00:40:24.719 --> 00:40:28.099 and laws that there are all of these like gray 00:40:28.099 --> 00:40:30.420 areas that people just keep pushing it on other 00:40:30.420 --> 00:40:33.820 people. Like that's not our problem. Like to 00:40:33.820 --> 00:40:38.679 kind of like skirt around what's good to do, 00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:42.880 I guess, for a better way to put that. Do you 00:40:42.880 --> 00:40:48.090 find as like, the anthropologist that you have 00:40:48.090 --> 00:40:52.829 almost like a sense of duty to be that voice 00:40:52.829 --> 00:40:57.090 of science communication in those spaces or do 00:40:57.090 --> 00:40:59.570 you find that like at least specifically for 00:40:59.570 --> 00:41:02.130 like icrc that like the lawyers and stuff like 00:41:02.130 --> 00:41:07.010 they get it and like it's fine i don't know i 00:41:07.010 --> 00:41:10.349 mean as it as it when it comes Any actual science 00:41:10.349 --> 00:41:13.269 related? No, nobody gets it who's not a forensic 00:41:13.269 --> 00:41:15.210 practitioner or like a doctor or like something 00:41:15.210 --> 00:41:19.070 very closely related where they know what we're 00:41:19.070 --> 00:41:22.030 doing. Because at a baseline, nobody understands 00:41:22.030 --> 00:41:25.550 what we're doing, which I also find hilarious 00:41:25.550 --> 00:41:29.250 in the sense that like from like an app's perspective, 00:41:29.690 --> 00:41:33.070 ICRC is so well regarded, I think, for the forensic 00:41:33.070 --> 00:41:35.530 community in general around the world, like the 00:41:35.530 --> 00:41:39.760 ICRC forensic unit. like it is humanitarian forensics 00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:43.719 um it's not the only one but like it is like 00:41:43.719 --> 00:41:48.039 the major one but nobody at icrc understands 00:41:48.039 --> 00:41:51.719 our work and so we're we're constantly struggling 00:41:51.719 --> 00:41:55.940 to like tell them what we do and so like there 00:41:55.940 --> 00:42:00.019 there is like infighting between the restoring 00:42:00.019 --> 00:42:02.659 family links unit that focuses more on like missing 00:42:02.659 --> 00:42:06.210 persons or people they They either think or want 00:42:06.210 --> 00:42:10.030 to believe might be alive and missing. Cause 00:42:10.030 --> 00:42:12.489 I also work with separation cases as well, where 00:42:12.489 --> 00:42:14.489 people are most likely alive. They just don't 00:42:14.489 --> 00:42:17.949 have the communication abilities to get in touch 00:42:17.949 --> 00:42:21.030 with their families. And so they can go to ICRC 00:42:21.030 --> 00:42:25.309 and, and reconnect through ICRC. And that's where 00:42:25.309 --> 00:42:27.349 they're really successful. But when it comes 00:42:27.349 --> 00:42:30.909 to like forensics and missing persons, missing 00:42:30.909 --> 00:42:34.750 persons in a normal world. is like forensic work 00:42:34.750 --> 00:42:41.130 and at icrc it is focused on this uh like they 00:42:41.130 --> 00:42:44.369 they've had a central tracing agency since icrc 00:42:44.369 --> 00:42:47.250 began pretty much because they were trying to 00:42:47.250 --> 00:42:51.250 uh you know find missing persons after war during 00:42:51.250 --> 00:42:53.969 war uh recover body like they were doing the 00:42:53.969 --> 00:42:56.190 work but they didn't know what they were doing 00:42:56.190 --> 00:42:59.369 like they did but it's like it's very different 00:42:59.369 --> 00:43:02.610 because they didn't have forensic any sort of 00:43:02.610 --> 00:43:08.329 a forensic unit until 2003. And it was after 00:43:08.329 --> 00:43:11.070 this Air National Missing Persons Conference. 00:43:11.489 --> 00:43:13.610 And so that's when forensics were really brought 00:43:13.610 --> 00:43:18.389 into ICRC. Before that, they often would bring 00:43:18.389 --> 00:43:23.210 in consultants who were forensic practitioners 00:43:23.210 --> 00:43:30.869 and would give advice. While many people understand 00:43:30.869 --> 00:43:34.170 the laws and the policies and how to talk to 00:43:34.170 --> 00:43:36.630 governments when it comes to forensics, they 00:43:36.630 --> 00:43:41.150 just don't understand our work. I heard that 00:43:41.150 --> 00:43:48.690 another infighting thing, they were trying to 00:43:48.690 --> 00:43:52.170 argue that forensics doesn't have any data because 00:43:52.170 --> 00:43:57.400 they don't understand what we're doing. because 00:43:57.400 --> 00:44:02.659 it like I yeah it like I love ISRC but some things 00:44:02.659 --> 00:44:06.860 are like a mess do you think that like lack of 00:44:06.860 --> 00:44:11.659 understanding is because there's no space to 00:44:11.659 --> 00:44:16.019 sit down and talk about it or more so like a 00:44:16.019 --> 00:44:22.420 I think I don't know I know for myself I've seen 00:44:22.420 --> 00:44:25.300 not just within like my own job but within grad 00:44:25.300 --> 00:44:27.980 schools and other things of like well if I can 00:44:27.980 --> 00:44:30.139 argue that your job's not necessary then I get 00:44:30.139 --> 00:44:34.460 your funding type of yes yes actually yes because 00:44:34.460 --> 00:44:41.039 we are so horribly underfunded um and so like 00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:42.739 a lot of it does come from that because there 00:44:42.739 --> 00:44:44.559 are not resources and so at the end of the day 00:44:44.559 --> 00:44:47.380 is people's jobs and so like a lot of a lot of 00:44:47.380 --> 00:44:51.679 things There became a lot more of this when they 00:44:51.679 --> 00:44:53.460 were going through their financial crisis, which 00:44:53.460 --> 00:44:58.639 was around the time when I left. Somewhat related 00:44:58.639 --> 00:45:02.019 because they couldn't pay me. That was the whole 00:45:02.019 --> 00:45:04.239 reason my position ended is because I was being 00:45:04.239 --> 00:45:06.679 funded. I was originally hired as an associate, 00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:11.340 but that was only for a year -ish contract. And 00:45:11.340 --> 00:45:14.719 then I was hired for a new position. as a project 00:45:14.719 --> 00:45:19.000 officer, but specifically for the crisis in Ukraine 00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:24.840 when that started. But then that funding only 00:45:24.840 --> 00:45:27.059 extended to a certain point and then there was 00:45:27.059 --> 00:45:28.940 nothing. And so when I was leaving, like one 00:45:28.940 --> 00:45:32.000 of my supervisors, Oren, who's also amazing, 00:45:32.239 --> 00:45:38.199 he now works in Ireland. But he was saying that, 00:45:38.340 --> 00:45:43.739 like, you know, essentially my role was so important 00:45:43.739 --> 00:45:47.039 and that like they will really feel like the 00:45:47.039 --> 00:45:49.480 gap when I'm gone but it's just like we don't 00:45:49.480 --> 00:45:52.719 have money to pay you so it's like yeah we're 00:45:52.719 --> 00:45:56.079 gonna feel it when you're gone but we have no 00:45:56.079 --> 00:45:59.760 way to stop them like and like this is how a 00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:01.360 majority of like my friends like it's really 00:46:01.360 --> 00:46:03.860 hard to go from being an associate to like actually 00:46:03.860 --> 00:46:07.900 getting hired because uh there's a bit of an 00:46:07.900 --> 00:46:10.960 experience gap uh for a lot of the positions 00:46:10.960 --> 00:46:13.760 um forensics is the biggest though because for 00:46:13.760 --> 00:46:15.619 an associate role you have to have less than 00:46:15.619 --> 00:46:20.639 two years of experience but for a uh entry uh 00:46:20.639 --> 00:46:22.599 forensic specialist you have to have six to eight 00:46:22.599 --> 00:46:26.119 years of casework experience so it's like you 00:46:26.119 --> 00:46:28.679 have to go back and you have to and you have 00:46:28.679 --> 00:46:32.980 to leave i like um because icrc doesn't do casework 00:46:34.900 --> 00:46:37.920 Yeah, I have to leave to get the experience. 00:46:40.119 --> 00:46:41.960 That's for a field position. I could still get 00:46:41.960 --> 00:46:44.300 hired back at headquarters for different projects 00:46:44.300 --> 00:46:48.360 or something if they ever got money. But for 00:46:48.360 --> 00:46:51.880 a field position, you need a lot more experience 00:46:51.880 --> 00:46:54.960 to actually be a specialist because you are the 00:46:54.960 --> 00:46:57.599 ones that are giving advice to governments, essentially. 00:46:57.860 --> 00:46:59.760 So they want you to have that experience and 00:46:59.760 --> 00:47:05.739 know what you're doing before you go in. I would 00:47:05.739 --> 00:47:08.780 recommend the UN, but I think they're going to 00:47:08.780 --> 00:47:11.679 be running out of money soon, too. Oh, yeah. 00:47:11.800 --> 00:47:17.739 The UN is in full crisis mode. Yeah, there's 00:47:17.739 --> 00:47:22.380 so many jobs that are getting cut. And actually, 00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:28.380 one of my other side projects is I recently started 00:47:28.380 --> 00:47:34.170 volunteering with senior UN officials. run for 00:47:34.170 --> 00:47:37.130 secretary general so his name is Bruno Donat 00:47:37.130 --> 00:47:44.789 and he he is running on a platform to essentially 00:47:44.789 --> 00:47:48.489 change things for the better in the UN and like 00:47:48.489 --> 00:47:50.789 kind of disrupt some of the usual things so he's 00:47:50.789 --> 00:47:53.309 a bit controversial but like in a good way like 00:47:53.309 --> 00:47:55.309 he actually wants to bring like real change and 00:47:55.309 --> 00:47:57.369 he doesn't he doesn't think he has an actual 00:47:57.369 --> 00:47:59.750 shot of being secretary general because of how 00:47:59.750 --> 00:48:02.769 the internal politics of that position how people 00:48:02.769 --> 00:48:05.809 get that position normally but he wants to use 00:48:05.809 --> 00:48:11.150 this as a wider public platform to advocate for 00:48:11.150 --> 00:48:15.730 the like systemic flaws that he sees in the UN 00:48:15.730 --> 00:48:19.030 or like the like one of his things is he wants 00:48:19.030 --> 00:48:22.090 to decolonize the UN because most of the high 00:48:22.090 --> 00:48:25.349 official positions are still held by European 00:48:25.349 --> 00:48:31.170 western people So he's Mauritian. And so he wants 00:48:31.170 --> 00:48:36.210 to bring this very tiny island country that's 00:48:36.210 --> 00:48:38.789 often forgot about. He wants to like make the 00:48:38.789 --> 00:48:42.530 world know about Mauritius and like other other 00:48:42.530 --> 00:48:44.730 populations around the world that are just like 00:48:44.730 --> 00:48:49.489 forgotten. Yeah. And so I really like what he 00:48:49.489 --> 00:48:53.190 wants to do. But it's so it's so controversial, 00:48:53.230 --> 00:48:56.250 like within UN politics, because nobody is supposed 00:48:56.250 --> 00:49:00.579 to talk. Like that. There's nothing controversial 00:49:00.579 --> 00:49:04.900 about UN politics. To understand UN politics, 00:49:05.119 --> 00:49:08.179 just remember this. Everybody is either on the 00:49:08.179 --> 00:49:10.360 side of the Americans, the Russians, or the Chinese. 00:49:10.559 --> 00:49:16.480 That's it. Yeah, and it's like... I mean, me, 00:49:16.500 --> 00:49:19.000 me personally, I'm like so fed up with the security 00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:24.280 council. I don't, I don't understand. Yeah. I 00:49:24.280 --> 00:49:26.079 mean, I know why they created the way they did, 00:49:26.139 --> 00:49:28.400 but like, it's like, yeah, it's useless. And 00:49:28.400 --> 00:49:31.559 it was set up to essentially be useless. Yeah. 00:49:32.900 --> 00:49:39.260 Yeah. No, I, and it needs reform, but that's, 00:49:39.260 --> 00:49:43.719 that's off topic another day. Yeah. We'll drive 00:49:43.719 --> 00:49:47.619 people away getting into global politics. Circling 00:49:47.619 --> 00:49:51.380 back to neutrality quick though, one of Bruno's 00:49:51.380 --> 00:49:54.280 radical positions is that he doesn't really believe 00:49:54.280 --> 00:49:57.639 in neutrality and he wants to focus more on impartiality. 00:49:57.920 --> 00:50:04.000 And it's because nobody is truly neutral. And 00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:06.619 also he thinks that neutrality needs to have 00:50:06.619 --> 00:50:11.119 limits. Once atrocities get past a certain point, 00:50:12.480 --> 00:50:15.380 organizations need like the un this really needs 00:50:15.380 --> 00:50:18.539 to take a stance sooner and do something and 00:50:18.539 --> 00:50:24.199 not just like stand by and watch uh and so uh 00:50:24.199 --> 00:50:26.139 and then focusing more on impartiality means 00:50:26.139 --> 00:50:28.860 that like you're still not discriminating in 00:50:28.860 --> 00:50:30.860 terms of like helping people and distributing 00:50:30.860 --> 00:50:36.199 aid and things like this but uh yeah but it's 00:50:36.199 --> 00:50:37.980 a tough balance because then if you're not neutral 00:50:37.980 --> 00:50:42.869 states don't want to work with you so Well, Skylar, 00:50:42.949 --> 00:50:46.989 I want to thank you so much for being here. That 00:50:46.989 --> 00:50:50.769 was, I think, a very fascinating conversation. 00:50:52.469 --> 00:50:56.869 Stephanie and Jenna, thank you all so very much. 00:50:58.289 --> 00:51:00.929 Thank you so much for having me, Ashley. It's 00:51:00.929 --> 00:51:07.750 a pleasure. Can we post your email if anybody 00:51:07.750 --> 00:51:11.309 has any questions for you? about the ICRC or 00:51:11.309 --> 00:51:13.269 would you rather they come to us and we pass 00:51:13.269 --> 00:51:16.090 them along to you? Yeah, sure. You can pass along 00:51:16.090 --> 00:51:19.809 my email. They, anyone is also welcome to find 00:51:19.809 --> 00:51:25.190 me on LinkedIn and reach out there. Yeah. That 00:51:25.190 --> 00:51:30.269 sounds great. Well, thank you so much. And like 00:51:30.269 --> 00:51:31.969 I said, it's been a pleasure. I look forward 00:51:31.969 --> 00:51:34.969 to when we can meet again, because like I said 00:51:34.969 --> 00:51:37.349 to everyone, she's one of my great friends. I 00:51:37.349 --> 00:51:40.820 really enjoy Skylar. So we can do a part two 00:51:40.820 --> 00:51:43.619 when you finish your dissertation and you can 00:51:43.619 --> 00:51:46.760 just do like a casual part two defense to us 00:51:46.760 --> 00:51:48.519 that we won't give you any comments and we'll 00:51:48.519 --> 00:51:51.780 just say yay. But like I want to hear all the 00:51:51.780 --> 00:51:55.460 results. Amazing. I mean, that sounds like great 00:51:55.460 --> 00:51:58.119 dissertation prep. So I'll be I'll come back 00:51:58.119 --> 00:52:02.960 to you at some point. That we're looking forward 00:52:02.960 --> 00:52:08.980 to. All right. OK, so. With that, I guess we'll 00:52:08.980 --> 00:52:12.840 say good night. Thank you to everyone. Have a 00:52:12.840 --> 00:52:16.420 great and pleasant evening. See y 'all next time 00:52:16.420 --> 00:52:17.639 on The Bone Club. See ya.