and welcome to another episode of The Bone Club.
It is I, Ashley, and I'm here with Stephanie
and Jenna. And we have a very special guest,
one of my really good friends, Skylar Joseph,
all the way from the University of Linden in
the Netherlands. But the reason why she's here
is because before she went to the Netherlands,
she worked for a very noble organization, one
that I've... I wanted to work for one that I
have long respected, the International Committee
for the Red Cross. And she's here to talk to
us today about human rights, humanitarian disasters
and issues, and what the ICRC and what the role
of forensic anthropologists play in those broader
concepts. So welcome, Skylar. Welcome. Yes, yes.
Thank you, Ashley. I'm happy to be here. Briefly
introduce yourself and stuff? Yeah, sure. So
my name is Skylar, and I'm currently one year
into my PhD at Leiden University. Current project
is focusing on the missing and deceased migration
crisis in the Mediterranean, and specifically
looking at how a lack of state accountability
and certain state policies affect the people
who are doing casework. So I want to interview
humanitarian workers, forensic practitioners,
and different types of migrant networks who do
both formal and informal casework looking for
those who go missing and die at sea. Um, and
this project is actually, uh, highly influenced
by like some of the work I was doing at ICRC.
Um, so ICRC, I, uh, I worked in the forensic
unit at headquarters in Geneva and I started,
uh, as a, in an associate role, which is like
the most entry level position you can have. Um,
and I worked, I worked on a lot of different.
projects while I was there. I really enjoyed
my work. I got to engage with a lot of people
working in the field in our different delegations.
And so yeah, like the my current project is influenced
from some of the work I did there. But I didn't
work too much directly with migration, but I
more learned about kind of the different ways
that medical legal systems are failing in general
around the world, but also specifically in relation
to migration cases because of the different ways
that migrants can fall through the cracks of
the different legal systems and how states don't
want to take accountability for searching for
these people. So yeah, that's a little bit about
me. I'm also a forensic anthropologist, just
to clarify that. And I work on archaeological
dig in Egypt as well. I say, I guess my first
question is, what made you, like, I feel like,
you know, as anthropologists, a lot of us obviously
care really deeply about human rights and view
culture as such a broad, like speaking. concept
that like i think we think about cultures very
differently than probably most other people that
like don't have a background in anthropology
but like what made you go towards humanitarian
aid human rights work instead of other like medical
legal like more traditional i guess quote unquote
forensic anthropology yeah i mean i i originally
wanted to pursue forensic anthropology uh because
i really loved human skeletons like from a very
young age um i like my mom told me this story
from when i was about three and there was we
had a medical encyclopedia with like the pages
uh with like the bones and the stuff and apparently
i would just sit there and ask my mom like what
the names of all the bones were because i couldn't
read yet uh so she would read the little labels
um But so I pursued my desire to like learn more
about the human skeleton because I found it really
interesting from a young age. But then actually
when I was in grad school, so I went to the same
same grad school as Ashley, Boston University.
And while I was there and I had finally achieved
like starting my master's, I then started thinking,
what do I actually want to do with like once
I get my degree, what do I want to do next? Um,
cause I hadn't thought that far clearly yet.
It's like, I want to be a forensic anthropologist,
but I hadn't thought about what that would mean.
Um, because in the context of like human rights
and stuff, I see the different ways that the
legal system, medical legal system, uh, can be
very corrupt. Uh, and coming from the U S there's
a lot of, uh, there's a lot of different situations
where people are unjustly prosecuted um and so
it made me really like question what I'm what
my personal role would be comfortable with in
terms of interacting with this system because
it's like I don't I wouldn't want to uh essentially
have the weight of a wrongful conviction like
on my conscience or knowing I contributed even
if like uh even if it wasn't like my testimony
that like caused that to happen, I would still
feel responsible in some way. And so then I actually
went to my first AFS conference, my first year
of grad school, I think, and they had a whole
panel on humanitarian work and mostly ICRC people.
And I was just like, this, this is what I've
been, this is what I want to do. And humanitarian
work also differs from human rights work in that,
like, I also have an interest in human rights,
forensics in human rights. But for human rights,
you're still on that prosecutorial end because
you are the one that are looking into like genocide
and war crimes and like. you know executions
and torture and so you're on the prosecutorial
side of that whereas the humanitarian side is
almost strictly for like identification purposes
or like capacity building and so it's a very
different role where you're supporting the main
forensic professionals in that country to make
sure they're applying the proper methods and
techniques but you're not interfering with their
casework if they are uh trying to do either domestic
or human rights type of casework um and they're
strictly neutral and help with identifications
and repatriation so they talk between states
uh which is why they can't be involved in in
the prosecutorial side of things uh yeah did
i answer that question fully sometimes i ramble
That actually leads me to a question I have,
though, because you separated humanitarian and
human rights. But what we see today, one of the
things that we notice if anybody watches the
news, is there seems to be a rise in conflict.
A hot war between the United States, Israel,
and Iran. There's still the hot conflict between
Israel and Gaza. There's a hot conflict between
Russia and Ukraine. Even though it just earlier
or late last week settled, you have the peace
accord between – or peace – deal ceasefire between
the republic of congo and rwanda so you have
hot you have conflicts all over the world what
is the role between the icrc and those conflicts
and human rights work does the icrc just work
out and done and come in after the fact? Do they
act kind of as referees? Or are they in there
in the middle making sure that civilians are
protected, trying to ensure that rights of civilians
and that humanitarian aid can get in? During
those conflicts, what is that role of the ICRC
during those conflicts and during the human rights
atrocities that take place during those conflicts?
Yeah, so the ICRC is a very unique and independent
organization. So it's different than the UN and
it's different than like any other type of NGOs,
even international NGOs. And the ICRC... specifically
focuses on international humanitarian law, which
guides the laws of war, essentially. And so the
forensic unit in ICRC is one small part, but
ICRC on a more broad scale does a lot of things
related to conflict and post -conflict. So we
have international humanitarian lawyers who...
do a variety of roles often with negotiating
between state parties or between armed groups
they so they often negotiate humanitarian aid
getting in and how that is distributed they they
offer services related to like education and
water and habilitation and economic security.
They do things relating to protecting children
and protecting vulnerable populations, prisoners
of war. Yeah, they do a lot. And then the forensic
unit specifically, we most closely work with
the Restoring Family Links unit and the... protection
data unit and together they form the central
tracing agency with the forensic unit and that's
focused on missing persons essentially so connecting
missing persons and those who die in different
situations particularly relating to conflict
and post -conflict situations so in addition
to that the forensic unit also focuses on like
on the ground uh capacity building they do lots
and lots of trainings um i would say that's probably
one of the biggest things and then they also
uh will go in and support with like body recovery
and identification uh for like strictly identification
purposes uh so like if if you're excavating a
mass grave specifically for human rights purposes
different agencies will go in so or they'll go
in with ICRC and it's like as long as the person
from ICRC essentially doesn't touch any evidence
or something where like they are the person who
would need to testify about that They can go
in and support just because they are not allowed
to testify in these types of cases, like they
can't be the one doing the analysis or things
like that. And so like a good example of this
is recently in Gaza where all of the ambulances
that had been attacked and the crew that had
been attacked were buried. And so the bodies
and the vehicles were all buried. And so ICRC
was there. They had one person there, as far
as I know. But then you had people from the UN
and other organizations that were doing the actual
recovery and casework because ICRC would be there
to also document the war crimes. But ICRC is
not going to be the one. prosecuting that. They
keep all of their information to themselves because
they need it to be able to do their jobs better
and negotiating. But they have to stay neutral.
Neutrality is essential to ICRC's work. Whereas
like other agencies don't necessarily have to
be neutral. And so they can and do need to take
a side when they're investigating these things.
How do you maintain that neutrality? For me,
that's a big one. Because as human beings, we're
naturally not neutral. We like to take sides.
Particularly when we see suffering, we like to
take sides. So how does one maintain that neutrality,
even in suffering? Yeah, so I mean, icrc from
an organizational standpoint uh they need to
maintain neutrality to maintain access and that
goes for other organizations as well but they
Other organizations have less strict stances
on neutrality. So like MSF or Doctors Without
Borders is another one that works in many of
the same contexts as ICRC, but they will denounce
conflicts much sooner. ICRC almost never denounces
a state unless there is literally no possibility
for them to do their work because things have
gotten so bad. And so everybody often will point
out how ICRC knew about the concentration camps
in Germany during World War II long before that
information became more publicly known. And everybody
gets mad because it's like, why weren't you doing
anything? And it's because they were doing stuff.
Just nobody knows what ICRC does because they
can't tell people. And so, like, because they
were still getting in and able to help some people,
like, those were the benefits that they were
counting on. Whereas if they denounced them and,
you know, leaked all of their confidential information
to the greater public, while that has more of
a prosecutorial route, the direct and immediate
need for whatever the vulnerable population is
there, they won't get that aid anymore. And so
it's hard. Neutrality is hard. And yeah, it's
a trade off. It depends on what your goals are.
But I'm thinking more of as the individual, as
the practitioner. Yeah, I mean, on an individual
level. Would there be, is there, not to force
the curtain back too much, is there amount of
turnover? because of burnout dealing with this
because it's seeing these things and just I can't
be neutral much longer yeah I mean I think often
uh yeah I mean it it really comes down to that
like personal conscience and whether you know
the work you are doing is more important than
your own personal stances. Because everybody
I know who works at ICRC has to be able to talk
to both sides. That's the purpose of ICRC. And
so by holding your own personal views back, you
are able to do that work and help more people.
Um, and so it's kind of like, um, yeah, it's
like everybody still has their own opinions.
Um, and the burn, there is a lot of burnout.
Uh, there's a lot of burnout, just a flat statement.
There's a lot of burnout. Like, um, like one
of my friends is, he's not a forensic person,
but he is, uh, he has a different goal at ICRC,
but he is currently in Haiti. Um, And he's really
been struggling with the pressure and the stress
and feeling a bit lost, I think, in terms of
how much help they're actually able to provide.
Because really complicated contexts also make
things more challenging. um yeah yeah and then
like for in for like the forensic unit um it's
I it's actually for me personally it was the
healthiest work environment I've ever been in
my supervisor was amazing um I like Pierre is
amazing Pierre is still the head of unit he is
uh the best supervisor I've ever had um And I
worked closely with Stephen Fonseca who's based
in South Africa. And he's also amazing. Like
there are so many really amazing people at ICRC
who I had the chance to work with. But because
of the types of like work everyone is doing and
the pressure of the organization as a whole,
everybody is overworked. There are not enough
staff because they don't get enough funding.
The organization in general doesn't get enough
funding, but then the forensic unit gets such
a small amount of funding that there's some context
where there are certain places in Africa where
one person is supposed to cover six countries.
And so it's very limited what types of services
they can provide and what types of help they
can do because one person is stretched so thin.
And then at headquarters, there's a lot of infighting
and territorialness within the organization.
And so it's stressful in a different way. So
everybody goes through burnout. They actually
plan it essentially in the way that they structure
their leave and stuff because they assume that
everyone's going to go. and get burnt out and
so they give you like uh six months or a year
of like you know potential burnout pay if you
get like medically diagnosed as burnt out um
which is good but like everybody goes to like
burnout like and then they'll recover and then
they'll like work again until they burn out um
yeah no i mean in previous weeks we talked about
Sorry. No, go ahead. In previous weeks, we talked
about vicarious trauma and how some institutions
are slow to catch up with kind of caring for
their people in that way. Do you find, is the
six months, is that how they're trying to help
you guys deal with it? Or are there other things
in place to help you to manage that vicarious
trauma? Yeah, honestly, they don't do nearly
enough. I think they do kind of try to compensate
by just, allowing people to take time off when
they get burnt out which is good because i mean
a lot of jobs don't do that um but like it's
not enough and like the psychological support
is not enough and most people when they come
back from missions they're supposed to have like
a debrief and actually talk about what happened
and stuff and like that very rarely happens or
happens properly um like they'll just get sent
because also between different typically how
most mobile icrc contracts work uh is like you
have a contract for like a year and a half and
then you can choose whether or not you want to
extend it for another year and a half and then
you have to move on to a new context um and so
like in between those missions you often have
a slightly longer break than normal like rnr
periods where they allow like they help send
you back home um And, like, if you're in a very
intense context, you get more R &R periods. But,
like, rest is not necessarily enough. And it's,
like, they try to say that mental health isn't
stigmatized, but it is. Like, it very much is.
Because if you have certain diagnoses in your
medical file, you can't necessarily get posted
in a field position because they they don't know
that you're uh that you're not gonna like have
a breakdown or do something that like could threaten
um the organization and so it's it's uh like
everybody's stigmatized against going to get
help if they're struggling uh and so we did get
a free subscription to headspace i think yeah
um So there's that also on top of the like R
&R. But yeah, it's like ass giving everybody
a subscription to better help. Yeah, the same
thing. Yeah. I would say, I guess my question
with that is, do you find that humanitarian work
and like ICRC then? I don't know how to word
this nicely, but like attracts a certain type
of person who can compartmentalize really well.
Or do you find that it is, oh, it attracts people
who care so much and then they get burnt out
and leave. And then it's a new wave of people
who care so much and then they burnt out and
leave. And because I know like for my job, I
definitely see a lot of that, like you care so
much. And then in three years, you're like, I'm
done. And then they peace out and then you get
a new wave of people. I just was curious if it
was kind of the same way. I would say it differs
between the forensic unit and the rest of ICRC,
probably to varying degrees because it's a big
organization. But I would say forensic, like
the forensic unit in general, because I think
forensic practitioners in general have to compartmentalize
a lot better. And from like earlier in our careers,
we made the decision to like. see horrific images
and, like, be okay with it. Like, not everybody
at ICRC is prepped like that. A lot of people
in other units do join because, like, most of
them have, like, either international law backgrounds
or international relations, things like that.
um where they know a lot about global politics
they know a lot about the conflicts they know
a lot about the law um but they aren't necessarily
conditioned to see the effects of war and so
like one of my friends um we were both associates
at icrc together at the same time and she but
she was in the resource mobilization unit um
and so she worked on like grant writing and stuff
and then she was uh So she worked there for a
while and then she was able to get a delegate
position. And these are the entry level mobile
positions for different things. But most people
start as protection delegates where they focus
mostly on prisoners and missing persons. And
so they do often work with forensic people. But
there's a lot of context where we don't have
forensic people. or we don't have enough forensic
people. And so then these delegates who are not
forensic practitioners get sent in to do forensic
jobs because they think that they don't need
us. And so they send people with backgrounds
in like international relations to go do like
a mass casualty recovery. And they like give
them like the management of the dead handbook
and like missing persons forms, essentially,
and are like, okay, go process this mass death
scene. And so like, that's going to cause a lot
of trauma, I assume. That is very different than
like a forensic practitioner who goes in and
if not has worked on like a mass grave, has probably
seen images of mass graves. and has probably
done some type of mock something, even if they've
never, well, all our forensic specialists have
to have a minimum of six to eight years of casework.
So they've all worked on this type of work. Many
of the ones who work there have worked on mass
casualty, mass graves from, honestly, a lot of
them come out of, post Yugoslavia a lot of them
started their careers working there or like Rwanda
like this early 90s start of where forensic humanitarian
work really started to grow so most people not
all of them like now now we're getting a wave
like slightly older older than me that hasn't
had that experience but still has done a lot
of casework um but yeah it's still different
completely different preparation than the rest
the rest of the organization i have a so like
i guess when doing the forensic casework in the
stance of being neutral i know you're saying
like more often it's just the identity like identification
purpose part of the forensic casework so like
for my job we you know create the biological
profile but in that also have pathologies and
traumas and things like that which inherently
are somewhat political in nature and can be lend
themselves to prosecution in a way does that
part get done by someone else then or like how
does that work i guess Yeah, so it depends on...
So say you're in a post -conflict zone and you
know you have a mass grave. You need to know
before you go in what the purpose of excavating
the mass grave is and if you are trying to prosecute
certain war crimes because of it. And so if you
know the mass grave... uh you know probably contains
victims of uh like torture or mass execution
um like the person from icrc would not be able
to essentially directly work on anything that
will be used in court and so they can be there
and observe and they can give advice and then
they can read the case reports and they can maybe
do their own analysis that is not shared with
anybody except ICRC. But yeah, like anything
that will go to court, they can't touch. And
so other organizations would then take that on.
Going to what you're working on now with migration,
I think that's what we, conflict is a, causes
in itself a huge humanitarian crisis. I think
the two key areas you can look at are the Gaza
Strip and Ukraine at the moment. But those two
also have migration. Well, Gaza's sort of blocked
off, but for the most part, you have migration
as another key humanitarian disaster that is
going on. globally. Now, you work with migration
through Europe, coming from Africa and East Asia,
right? Yeah, my project specifically will look
at Tunisia and Malta as focus countries and a
bit in Central Mediterranean in general, so also
Tunisia and Libya. But I am looking at also just
policies that affect North African predominantly
migration towards Europe and how European policies
and agreements with those North African countries
are also affecting the migration flows and lots
of other things. I did some work a couple weeks
with the Reuniting Families Project out of Baylor
University trying to identify Migrants that were
found along the Texas -Mexico border, and it's
interesting the process of just trying to identify,
but it brings to light some of the questions
of the problems that are faced among medical
examiner's offices, coroner's offices. death
investigation system and how it i i i don't know
what it's like within europe but here in the
united states there seems to be a real problem
where on the political side of things there is
this fight between either loosening border restrictions
that allow for migration to increase, or we now
have the Uber crackdown trying to stop migration
entirely. But what gets lost in it is that in
those border states, the medical examiner's office,
that death investigation system, is all but broken.
Because they cannot deal with the remains that
are there. And in your experience, are you seeing
something similar within Europe, particularly
around those coastal states that – when it comes
to those migrants? And I know part of the problem
is, for instance, like with Spain and Italy telling
the boats, no, you can just drown in the Mediterranean.
We're not letting you in. Who deals with those
remains? Yeah, so I mean, I'll start by saying
that I think medical legal systems are just broken
around the world because nowhere gets enough
funding to actually hire the staff that they
need. It's not prioritized enough because our
like Western dominant culture doesn't. like to
acknowledge death and so like they don't want
to talk about they don't want to fund it they
don't like want to do anything about it um and
then particularly when crises hit whether that's
war or natural disasters or migration accidents
other things like this um then then nowhere knows
how to deal with it um And not to mention also
ways that they fail in terms of discrimination
against different populations. And so this actually,
I had a realization that the connection between
my previous research on the Missing and Murdering
Indigenous Women crisis and my current research
is that failure of medical legal systems. Because
these are both... very different but very similar
like case studies essentially of why our systems
are failing um and so like specifically with
like my research now and that crossing between
North Africa and Europe um Europe is currently
trying to They focus a lot of their energy on
pushbacks and criminalization and outsourcing,
externalization of their borders, essentially,
where they're now paying North African coast
guards to push migrants back before they leave
their waters and they're then in European territory.
um but then you see cases like greece for example
where they often shoot at boats um because there's
a legal gray area of like you can shoot at like
people who are like causing a threat and they
don't know who's on the boat and so they're invading
the country like this sort of rhetoric um but
then you also get criminalization of like humanitarian
aid workers who are trying to go out and rescue
people they often aren't allowed to um and they
have to follow the rules or then they get arrested
or their boats are seized or both uh or any mix
of like these deterrent policies to try to get
less people caring about migrants um i forgot
if i answered all of your questions i feel like
i missed something i think you did but um Do
you think one of the policies that's starting
to be put into place here is we are now going
to start sending some of our migrants to Libya,
to Rwanda? Yeah, that's super illegal. I know
that's, it's a legally gray area. Not actually.
It's a legally black area, but the Supreme Court
has said it's gray. Gray according to the people
in power, apparently. But will that... And to
be fair, we're not the ones who came up with
the idea. The UK under... Was it Boris Johnson
or was it... Cameron said had a very similar
policy. No, it wasn't. Are you talking about
the Rwanda one recently? It was Rishi Sunak who
wanted to send migrants to Rwanda. And the United
States is building off that same policy. And
from someone who is studying migrants and migrant
policy, is this going to be the new normal with
states sending migrants not just to third countries,
but to third continents? Yeah, I mean, at a baseline,
it's supposed to be very illegal to do that.
But the gray area is this designation as a safe
country. Whoever thought Rwanda was a safe country,
maybe in 10, 15 years. Yeah, and so it has to
do with whether it's supposed to be... Yeah,
it has this designation as a safe country, and
there's these certain parameters that it needs
to meet, but every place kind of... makes up
their own designation for which countries they
consider safe um and and and also it's supposed
to be the entire country that is safe and so
some people are try to wiggle around it of like
oh certain parts of the country are dangerous
and so we can just send them to a not as dangerous
place um which is interesting because there are
discussions in europe now about like whether
the u .s can still be considered a safe country
because people are so unsafe in different areas
or for different reasons um like it most likely
won't go anywhere um but like they are talking
about it um which is something um and it's because
of this you need to be safe everybody needs to
be safe um yeah I have a question kind of tangentially
related, I guess, is I know like at AFS, you
had kind of talked about different like policies
and laws that there are all of these like gray
areas that people just keep pushing it on other
people. Like that's not our problem. Like to
kind of like skirt around what's good to do,
I guess, for a better way to put that. Do you
find as like, the anthropologist that you have
almost like a sense of duty to be that voice
of science communication in those spaces or do
you find that like at least specifically for
like icrc that like the lawyers and stuff like
they get it and like it's fine i don't know i
mean as it as it when it comes Any actual science
related? No, nobody gets it who's not a forensic
practitioner or like a doctor or like something
very closely related where they know what we're
doing. Because at a baseline, nobody understands
what we're doing, which I also find hilarious
in the sense that like from like an app's perspective,
ICRC is so well regarded, I think, for the forensic
community in general around the world, like the
ICRC forensic unit. like it is humanitarian forensics
um it's not the only one but like it is like
the major one but nobody at icrc understands
our work and so we're we're constantly struggling
to like tell them what we do and so like there
there is like infighting between the restoring
family links unit that focuses more on like missing
persons or people they They either think or want
to believe might be alive and missing. Cause
I also work with separation cases as well, where
people are most likely alive. They just don't
have the communication abilities to get in touch
with their families. And so they can go to ICRC
and, and reconnect through ICRC. And that's where
they're really successful. But when it comes
to like forensics and missing persons, missing
persons in a normal world. is like forensic work
and at icrc it is focused on this uh like they
they've had a central tracing agency since icrc
began pretty much because they were trying to
uh you know find missing persons after war during
war uh recover body like they were doing the
work but they didn't know what they were doing
like they did but it's like it's very different
because they didn't have forensic any sort of
a forensic unit until 2003. And it was after
this Air National Missing Persons Conference.
And so that's when forensics were really brought
into ICRC. Before that, they often would bring
in consultants who were forensic practitioners
and would give advice. While many people understand
the laws and the policies and how to talk to
governments when it comes to forensics, they
just don't understand our work. I heard that
another infighting thing, they were trying to
argue that forensics doesn't have any data because
they don't understand what we're doing. because
it like I yeah it like I love ISRC but some things
are like a mess do you think that like lack of
understanding is because there's no space to
sit down and talk about it or more so like a
I think I don't know I know for myself I've seen
not just within like my own job but within grad
schools and other things of like well if I can
argue that your job's not necessary then I get
your funding type of yes yes actually yes because
we are so horribly underfunded um and so like
a lot of it does come from that because there
are not resources and so at the end of the day
is people's jobs and so like a lot of a lot of
things There became a lot more of this when they
were going through their financial crisis, which
was around the time when I left. Somewhat related
because they couldn't pay me. That was the whole
reason my position ended is because I was being
funded. I was originally hired as an associate,
but that was only for a year -ish contract. And
then I was hired for a new position. as a project
officer, but specifically for the crisis in Ukraine
when that started. But then that funding only
extended to a certain point and then there was
nothing. And so when I was leaving, like one
of my supervisors, Oren, who's also amazing,
he now works in Ireland. But he was saying that,
like, you know, essentially my role was so important
and that like they will really feel like the
gap when I'm gone but it's just like we don't
have money to pay you so it's like yeah we're
gonna feel it when you're gone but we have no
way to stop them like and like this is how a
majority of like my friends like it's really
hard to go from being an associate to like actually
getting hired because uh there's a bit of an
experience gap uh for a lot of the positions
um forensics is the biggest though because for
an associate role you have to have less than
two years of experience but for a uh entry uh
forensic specialist you have to have six to eight
years of casework experience so it's like you
have to go back and you have to and you have
to leave i like um because icrc doesn't do casework
Yeah, I have to leave to get the experience.
That's for a field position. I could still get
hired back at headquarters for different projects
or something if they ever got money. But for
a field position, you need a lot more experience
to actually be a specialist because you are the
ones that are giving advice to governments, essentially.
So they want you to have that experience and
know what you're doing before you go in. I would
recommend the UN, but I think they're going to
be running out of money soon, too. Oh, yeah.
The UN is in full crisis mode. Yeah, there's
so many jobs that are getting cut. And actually,
one of my other side projects is I recently started
volunteering with senior UN officials. run for
secretary general so his name is Bruno Donat
and he he is running on a platform to essentially
change things for the better in the UN and like
kind of disrupt some of the usual things so he's
a bit controversial but like in a good way like
he actually wants to bring like real change and
he doesn't he doesn't think he has an actual
shot of being secretary general because of how
the internal politics of that position how people
get that position normally but he wants to use
this as a wider public platform to advocate for
the like systemic flaws that he sees in the UN
or like the like one of his things is he wants
to decolonize the UN because most of the high
official positions are still held by European
western people So he's Mauritian. And so he wants
to bring this very tiny island country that's
often forgot about. He wants to like make the
world know about Mauritius and like other other
populations around the world that are just like
forgotten. Yeah. And so I really like what he
wants to do. But it's so it's so controversial,
like within UN politics, because nobody is supposed
to talk. Like that. There's nothing controversial
about UN politics. To understand UN politics,
just remember this. Everybody is either on the
side of the Americans, the Russians, or the Chinese.
That's it. Yeah, and it's like... I mean, me,
me personally, I'm like so fed up with the security
council. I don't, I don't understand. Yeah. I
mean, I know why they created the way they did,
but like, it's like, yeah, it's useless. And
it was set up to essentially be useless. Yeah.
Yeah. No, I, and it needs reform, but that's,
that's off topic another day. Yeah. We'll drive
people away getting into global politics. Circling
back to neutrality quick though, one of Bruno's
radical positions is that he doesn't really believe
in neutrality and he wants to focus more on impartiality.
And it's because nobody is truly neutral. And
also he thinks that neutrality needs to have
limits. Once atrocities get past a certain point,
organizations need like the un this really needs
to take a stance sooner and do something and
not just like stand by and watch uh and so uh
and then focusing more on impartiality means
that like you're still not discriminating in
terms of like helping people and distributing
aid and things like this but uh yeah but it's
a tough balance because then if you're not neutral
states don't want to work with you so Well, Skylar,
I want to thank you so much for being here. That
was, I think, a very fascinating conversation.
Stephanie and Jenna, thank you all so very much.
Thank you so much for having me, Ashley. It's
a pleasure. Can we post your email if anybody
has any questions for you? about the ICRC or
would you rather they come to us and we pass
them along to you? Yeah, sure. You can pass along
my email. They, anyone is also welcome to find
me on LinkedIn and reach out there. Yeah. That
sounds great. Well, thank you so much. And like
I said, it's been a pleasure. I look forward
to when we can meet again, because like I said
to everyone, she's one of my great friends. I
really enjoy Skylar. So we can do a part two
when you finish your dissertation and you can
just do like a casual part two defense to us
that we won't give you any comments and we'll
just say yay. But like I want to hear all the
results. Amazing. I mean, that sounds like great
dissertation prep. So I'll be I'll come back
to you at some point. That we're looking forward
to. All right. OK, so. With that, I guess we'll
say good night. Thank you to everyone. Have a
great and pleasant evening. See y 'all next time
on The Bone Club. See ya.