everyone, and welcome to the Bone Club. We had
a great time in AFS at the last episode in Baltimore,
though it was really freezing the entire episode.
And we have Stephanie and our guest, Catherine,
were both at the meeting there. I believe, Catherine,
you were there since it was in your home place.
And it's just too cold for anything. But we had
a wonderful conversation about artificial intelligence
and ethics and so we have a wonderful um episode
today on vicarious trauma so you have with us
today you have myself ashley we have stephanie
and jenna and our guest katherine pope or cat
who is a doctoral student at the university of
maryland who is Also a diplomat with the American
Board of Medical Legal Death Investigators, a
fellow in the American Academy of Forensic Sciences,
has worked in medical examiner's offices and
RTI International, SNA International, as well
as serves on the Vicarious Trauma Committee with
AAFS. So just to be a little lighthearted here,
hello? Everybody want to say hello? Hey, everyone.
It's good to see y 'all again. Well, hear you,
maybe. You hear us. Welcome back. It's good to
be back. I missed last week, so I'm so excited
to be here. So, Kat, what got you interested
in anthropology? Most of our listeners are undergraduate
students interested in forensic anthropology.
What got you interested into this field? Are
you muted? I've got a cold and I'm coughing a
lot. Is that better? You're good. Awesome. Yeah,
I am. I knew, I mean, probably since middle school
that I really wanted to do something abnormal.
Both of my parents are first responders and I
used to go with my dad. down to the firehouse
and hang out for the day. And I remember one
day we went on a call and we ended up at the
hospital. I'm just hanging out in the ER and
this guy gets wheeled in and he had been researching
how to commit suicide. I mean, he had a stack
like three feet tall of papers. This is back
when you had to print stuff. he had spent all
this time and effort like trying to figure out
how to kill himself and he didn't succeed still
you know he had made it to the hospital somebody
called 911 and and they were helping him out
and i was like wow it's so crazy you know like
all that effort what he could have done you know
he could have cured cancer or like and it just
got my wheels kind of going on on the abnormal
thing and i just from that time forward i was
really interested in psychology forensic investigation,
and I kind of snowballed into reading, you know,
the Kathy Wright's books that were out back in
the day and watching CSI. I'm definitely a kid
of the 90s, so that was my jam. But when I went
to college, one of the big forensic anthropologists
in the world, Laura Fulginetti, was teaching
a special course. She had gone to the tiny little
college I went to, and she would come up every
two years and teach forensic anthropology. So
I just, it was like, good luck it was kismet
that i got to take an osteology class um and
forensic you know methods and just clicked it
was like everything made sense about bones you
know like it's it's just to me so obvious that
that's what you do you know like that's that's
what i wanted to do for the rest of my life so
i went got my master's degree I knew I didn't
want to be a professor. I've never wanted to
teach. I love talking to folks. I love talking
to students, but it's not my jam. So I knew I
wanted to go right into death investigation.
And very fortunately, every office I've worked
at has let me use my forensic anthro background
to assist in investigation of death. So not just
skeletons in the woods, but we also got to use,
I got to use my experience to help with trauma
analysis. positive scientific identification
of tentatively identified, you know, decomp or
fire victims, mass fatalities. So I really got
to use, you know, my practice at the ground level,
which was really, really cool. And then I kind
of snowballed into a career for the last five
years with NamUs. So I assist with missing and
unidentified persons cases, which I did until
about six months ago. So I feel really honored
and lucky because I think there are not a lot
of jobs out there, but for people who are listening,
who are really passionate about human osteology,
anatomy, forensic investigation, there are places
that you can use your experience and background
for sure. You don't have to go, you know, there's
not one right way to get into this field. There
are lots of really cool places we can, we can
use our skills. Yeah, I find that. To be rather
true, there are multiple avenues. There's not
one straight path that everybody must go down,
which is often recommended, I find. And it's
just strange. I just don't understand the strangeness
of it. I also find that like if you everyone
goes on that same path then everyone's learned
exactly the same thing and then the field stagnates
and so like if you have people that come from
all different backgrounds into this field they
might bring something like from psychology like
what we're going to talk about today that maybe
we never really thought of because you know we
only took our anthropology classes or we only
took you know whatever that we can use more than
just anthropology to do anthropology and I love
what you said about that when you you took your
osteo course and the bones just clicked with
you because that's what happened with me like
I was in a different field but bones always just
like I don't know it's kind of crazy to say but
they like spoke to me it just makes sense the
bones just make sense and uh I affiliate on that
one isn't there a book labeled that or something
bones talk or something i think so maybe your
next novel oh no no no one needs to read my books
we'll just hear your voice instead well i wish
i'd scream sometimes more than just talk just
like write down your name that'd be cool name
when we when we last were alive what happened
to you hey sometimes i mean i don't know how
much i'll believe in like supernatural things
but sometimes at work i definitely there's something
going on because every once in a while like not
necessarily that they'll write their name down
because how how lucky we would be if that happened
but like certain things will happen that like
something catches your eye That like, maybe you
would have missed otherwise or whatever that
you're like, why did, why did, why was I getting
stuck on this one thing? And that ends up being
the thing that IDs the person. And you're like,
they were pulling something on the other side,
trying to be like, look at this. Or at least
that's what I think. So cool. Well, Kat, you
mentioned something about your childhood and
I think it does bring it up. lead into today's
topic, which is going in as a child into the
ER, seeing what you saw. And that has to leave
some sort of mark, whether for good or for bad.
And with that, Is that what we would call vicarious
trauma? And if not, what is that? Yeah, I think
it really is like more of a culmination, like
a buildup of secondary trauma. So if you experience,
I think a lot of the times it's thought of with
first responders, so police officers, therapists,
people who witness. daily, you know, in this
process of their jobs, people that, you know,
forensic practitioners that look at child pornography.
These people are thought of to have this buildup
of awful things happening to them, right? So
primary trauma is that when you see something
firsthand, like if you see somebody get hit by
a car or if you get hit by a car, and that secondary
trauma is when you... hear about it or if you
witness it or, you know, these are kind of fluid
terms, right? But the vicarious trauma is the
buildup of that stuff. So, you know, and my husband
even talks about, he calls it tertiary trauma
because I'll have a really bad case and I'll
tell him about it. So then he's hearing about
it like third hand. But really, I mean, the bottom
line is that what we're finding and what researchers
are finding is is hearing about this stuff is
almost as bad as seeing it or experiencing it
yourself um and can leave just as permanent of
a mark on you um if you don't get the opportunity
to resolve that sort of trauma so you know um
i think when i was a young person you know like
we talked about stuff bad stuff at the dinner
table all the time because my dad was a paramedic
and my mom was a ER nurse so that was just normal
and then my husband he's a teacher my husband's
mom is a teacher like they didn't talk about
that stuff at the dinner table so I didn't realize
that it was traumatizing for them to hear that
stuff until until you're like oh yeah I guess
this isn't normal dinner talk but So those terms
too can be used differently with different people.
Certain people can experience more vicarious
trauma than other people if they're not used
to that sort of thing. And I think that's what
really, what I hope to kind of clear the way
with folks that are coming into this field is
students aren't really prepared for this sort
of thing, you know? And again, I'm an older person.
So back in the day, it was like, We definitely
didn't get training in how to talk to families
or how to handle, you know, handle, yes, physically
handle human remains. But like going home at
the end of the day and smelling like decomp or,
you know, thinking about like macerating a body
is. you know, can be kind of a, can we curse
on this podcast? Yeah. Okay. It's kind of a mind
fuck, right? Like you're playing around in somebody's
bits and innards and it's, it's really, so preparing
people for that sort of thing and that cumulative
effect of, of dealing with that sort of thing
is really what, what I hope just simply talking
about it. Well, we'll kind of navigate and advocate
for people and get more familiar with them. And
I don't know if it is what it is, but I know
this with some of the people that I've worked
with, both, you know, macerating remains, dissecting
remains, working on cases, things like that.
It's, you work on the case, you work with the
remains and just stoic or even jovial. Because
it's just that there's something just disconnect.
But this minor, not even relate, like a glass
breaking or something just otherworldly, just
completely outside. And that brings you to tears.
And it's just this complete disconnect of one
from the other. Jenna can attest to this because
I've told her this as a student. You can always
tell who's going to make it in this field by
the ones who can survive working on their first,
well, to be crass, their first kid. If you can't
do that, you're not going to survive this field.
I don't think. But the question then becomes,
how do we process that? How do we deal with that
and cope with dealing with those situations frequently?
Yeah, and I always try to remind people too,
it's, you know, we are built to, we're as scientists,
so we're prepared to compartmentalize that, right?
You know, set everybody up in human anatomical
position and to do your analysis and write your
report and you go through these very methodical
processes and that's fine. Like you said, then
it's like somebody in your office is an asshole
or, you know, like the water cooler is empty.
You know, it's those routine mundane things that
happen where that really throws you for a loop.
And I think to answer your question, it's building
those resiliencies. within your daily practice
so like making sure that you're actually recognizing
that you're feeling a little like I'm a little
on edge you know I just had to to put together
a kid or um you know this is my third homicide
of the week I'm exhausted just being able to
say that name it um and then going forward you
know recognizing with your colleagues that you
work with um when you see something kind of abnormal.
So that's what happened with me. I mean, I started,
I was fine. I was killing it and work, but then
like these little things would start to drive
me crazy. And I'm a very easygoing person, but
like I worked an entire weekend, you know, and
I also handled acute cases that were not skeletonized.
So I'm awake for 40 hours straight. And I took
my, my cell phone would not stop ringing and
I slammed it on the ground. I was trying to take
a dog walk and just like chill. And it would
not shut up. So I slammed it on the concrete
and broke it. And that's not something that's
normal for me. Right. But instead, my my manager
wrote me up and I got in trouble. But instead
of being like, oh, my gosh, you know, you're
a nice you're a good person. You don't break
state equipment. Are you OK? Let's get you some
help. Let's get you some coverage. She wrote
me up and I got in trouble. So that just kind
of that compounded the trauma and made me think,
oh, I'm wrong for feeling upset and then just
made it worse. So what really needs to happen
in our field is that appreciation that this is
tough, right? But then also on top of the tough
is the normal everyday stuff. And let's just
give each other a break and recognize and start
to build that resiliency. I would say, sorry,
go ahead, Jenna. When it comes to vicarious trauma,
everybody is going to be different. For some
people, it might kind of creep up on you slowly.
And for other people, you might just kind of
get smacked by it right in the face and you're
just on your butt. For those who find that it
creeps up on them, what are some of those like
early warning signs that you might be starting
to experience? the vicarious trauma or you're
starting to enter the zone of PTSD or things
like that? I mean, everyone will be different,
but are there some key warning signs that you
would advise people to be on the lookout for?
Yeah, there's a great slide I can send to you
guys if you want to post it with the podcast,
but PTSD diagnoses have to occur after the event
and that the symptoms that you meet, I think
they're like eight criteria that you have to
meet and it has to interrupt your life and it
has to go on for a certain amount of time. I
believe it's a month or six months. So those
criteria are actually really great check engine
lights for people to recognize, oh, something's
going on. You know, like this is obviously starting
to interrupt my life. It's lasting a long time.
Some of those things are like being hypervigilant.
So that was me. Again, I'm a very easygoing person.
One day my husband drove off and my kids like
started chasing after him in the car. And I was
like, oh my God, like you're going to fall under
the wheels and get crushed. And like, that's
not going to happen. That's not, it doesn't happen,
you know, or like they're playing in the backyard
and I see a tree limb just fall on them. Or I
had a drowning of an eight -year -old and I started
literally flashing through all the little kids
that I knew in my neighborhood, the face of.
on the decedent. So that's one of the symptoms
that qualifies you for PTSD diagnosis. Doing
things that you don't necessarily want to, like
drinking too much, doom scrolling, buying too
many things. Those things by themselves, these
eight criteria by themselves don't necessarily
mean that you're, yes, you may be having a little
bit of disordered. thinking, you may be experiencing
some vicarious trauma, but when you start to
combine them together and they last for a long
time, that's when you're in danger of, of having
that PTSD. And it's just, it requires, you know,
like a little bit more of an intervention at
that point. And I was definitely diagnosed with
PTSD. I would say this is kind of where, like,
for me, my, like, grad school research was all
about like cognitive thinking and bias and other
things like that how do you think I guess that
plays into vicarious trauma because for me like
my understanding at least is like if the field
keeps progressing in the way that some people
want us to of we're objective we can compartmentalize
we are separate from our cases we are not we're
just doing the science we're not a part of the
science i think that's only going to make the
vicarious trauma worse because you're ignoring
the impact you have on the science and the science
has on you um but i just kind of wanted your
opinion on how you think like objectivity or
like people pretending to be objective it has
on I love that. I'm all for objectivity and providing
unbiased analysis. I mean, I think there have
been many situations where people have overstepped
and over described, you know, trauma or taken
our methods a little too far and said things
that can't possibly be true. You know, like race
is a social construct. We can't, you know, we
cannot. be doing what we were back in like the
70s and 80s. And, and I see lots of examples
of that, you know, when I was working in NamUs
with reviewing old, old historical cases, there
has been a lot of issues with that in our field.
However, I don't think I mean, this is my professional
opinion, I don't think we can completely divorce
ourselves from the casework that we're doing.
I mean, there has been suggestions that we could
like not know anything about the case and only
look at, you know, the decedent and the remains.
And that's just not possible. We need the cultural
artifacts that are found with the remains. We
need to know like the location. We have to find
a happy medium for that. And I think that's definitely
true with, with. our experience within, you know,
this field and being able to be good anthropologists,
right? Good anthropologists look at the entire
picture. We have to be a part of the medical
legal system. We have to be part of the criminal
justice system, but we are also advocates for,
you know, humanitarian efforts too. So, and I
think that my experience working in the medical
examiner's offices has just been like that voice
that's kind of different, you know, and I feel
very honored that most of the places that I've
worked has listened to me as that different voice.
And I think many, you know, people who are listening
to this that are getting ready maybe to go into
medical examiner's offices, you probably will
work by yourself unless you work. with DPAA,
you know, or in New York City or like Harris
County, like there are very few offices that
have more than one forensic anthropologist on
staff. So part of our, I think part of our goal
when we're in there is to be a representative,
showing this kind of like full approach, right?
Being a good cultural advocate, being, you know,
but also a good scientific advocate. And that's
what I've found. I think it can be really hard
like to to work alone too I mean being the sole
practitioner like you don't really have anybody
to rely on so I'm a member of SOFA, which is
a Society of Forensic Anthropologists. So we
like bounce ideas. We can peer support or peer
review each other's reports. So send each other
pictures and like, hey, I've never seen this
trauma before. Will you take a look at it? So
that's a really good way to kind of build resiliency,
too, is, you know, like things like addiction
and like PTSD, they make you feel very alone.
I mean, I felt I was so embarrassed, but like.
My victims were supposed to be the victims, not
me. Like I was, you know, I signed up for this.
I was supposed to be, you know, muscle up, buttercup,
right? But when I started talking about it out
loud and saying like, oh, I'm struggling, I'm
having a hard time. So many people were like,
oh my gosh, me too. So that's another way to
kind of, to get help. And it doesn't make you
biased at all. Like if you have to ask for assistance.
That doesn't make you a bad person. It makes
you a human that wants to learn more things,
you know, right? And I think for so long, too,
forensic anthropologists, like they were leaned
on by professionals, law enforcement, like to
have the right answer, like to always guess the
race, you know, of the person or like always
have to know if it's male or female or like,
was he a tennis player, you know, out on the
scene? I was like, I can't get comfortable with
saying, you have to get comfortable saying, like,
I'm not going to tell you that right now. I need
to take these remains back to the lab. I need
to do further analysis. And I also may not be
able to tell you, you know, their population
affinity. You know, I may not be able to say
that. And that's something that many folks in
the back of the day did not really feel comfortable
doing. That's definitely the future of our field
too. And with that comes a more confidence and
people being able to say like, I'm struggling
mentally or I'm, you know, whatever. Being okay
with that gray area. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And
I think as a field where we are starting to see,
you can start to see it with young people coming
up, not necessarily. within the field but within
law enforcement young law enforcement officers
that are willing to accept more of a gray answer
than say 15 years ago or more where they wanted
black and white and and that i think or asian
is going to change or asian that's a joke yes
um One thing that does pop into my head, and
it's because I deal with this on a personal level,
is when you struggle with, and struggle is not
necessarily the right word, but when you deal
with an underlying mental health condition. For
me, it's bipolar disorder and borderline personality
disorder. Does, in what you have seen, does interactions
within the field, particularly within case work,
exacerbate or does, is there a way to separate
the two? Sort of just, well, these are in this
category and this is PTSD and secondary trauma
over here, or is it just? well this is just one
big ugly mess and you need to go see the grippy
socks distribution center i don't have an answer
to that i mean i think um in my experience i
am my work you know like it's such a huge part
of my life that i and i think that was not necessarily
the problem but like what led me down the road
of kind of burning out so hard was that I did,
like I described myself as a forensic anthropologist
first, you know, before being a mom or being
a spouse. So I think, you know, our mental health
conditions are a part of us. They're who we are.
Just like our jobs are a part of us and they
are our experiences. I don't think they're necessarily
a problem. I think they lead us to want to advocate
more for our clients, for our victims. If we
see ourselves, and I don't necessarily believe
in empathy because we can never know really truly
what people are feeling like, but if we understand
that we are just a part of our community and
the people, then... then we can understand that
everybody deserves their name, right? And that's
why we try so hard and we care so much about
the people that we work on because we believe
that they deserve to have their identities back.
At least that's what I believe. Yeah, I think
in some ways the things that, at least in my
case, have happened to me made me more equipped
for the job. And in some ways, they made it harder
to process things when they got hard. But I think
a lot of people would ask me, like, how do you
do that? Like, how do you go in there to people's
homes when it's a fire scene and collect dead
bodies? And for me, it's, I know that it's something
that I'm good at. And I have lost, I lost my
brother a year before entering the program. But
I lost my brother to cancer. So I got answers.
and losing him was really hard and in some ways
it makes it harder to handle things in any given
situation but it also makes me work harder for
the victims families i think i can compartmentalize
how awful a scene is or what i'm looking at um
because i know how important it is for closure
when you've lost someone yeah absolutely and
i don't i don't know where like I don't know
why forensic science, forensic scientists are
supposed to be these like robots, you know, I,
I guess I appreciate that we need to be good
scientists, right. And, and follow the scientific
method and, and, and do things. But I, we can't
forget who we are when we do this, because why
would we do it then? You know? No, I totally
agree. I mean, that was. like at work all the
time, like anytime someone's having a bad day
or anytime like a case is getting frustrating
or like even this morning where I'm like, it's
my day off and I'm still working a little bit
because I think we all do. It's like trying to
be like, okay, yes, I'm frustrated. Yes, I have
all of these emotions, but also why am I doing
this? And it's like, if that why goes away or
the why is not enough, then that's when you know
you do need to leave the field or. whatever.
And it's not because you couldn't handle it or
whatever, but it just it's best for you. But
it's like that why really matters. And I think
that's why like this at the beginning of the
podcast, you know, we asked like, why did you
get into the field? Because at the end of the
day, that's why we do anything. Like the reason
we found an interest in bones or found an interest
in forensics as a whole really guides us and
helps ground us. when everything else is kind
of going crazy. I wonder if that robotic archetype
is sort of a Hollywood creation. And not necessarily
just forensics, but just scientists in general.
You think of of movies and tv shows particularly
in the early 2000s and before and scientists
with rare exceptions were always the nerdy type
robotic nerdy type um a lot of sheldons from
uh big bang theory we're all supposed to be sheldons
and i wonder if that has crept into the field
and the belief. Yeah, that's funny. I also think
that more often than not, kind of going back
to what I was saying before, that like having
people that have lots of different experiences
helps combat that a little bit because then every
time you show up, to a scene or to a courthouse
or even to a family's uh like to talk to them
when you're not that stereotype necessarily or
even if you are but like being able to show yourself
in that situation helps the public view of what
our science is and so i know a couple episodes
ago we talked a lot about like science communication
and I think a lot of that kind of plays into,
okay, well, if we can be good advocates for each
other within the field, we can also be good advocates
for, you know, the people that we're trying to
identify and for their families. And to be able
to just like be yourself in all of those situations
helps really alleviate some of that, like, oh,
I need to be perfect, or I have to have the right
answer, or I have to, you know, X, Y, Z, and.
when you can be yourself, then you can admit
to yourself when you're having those types of
traumas. Yeah, and I think coming in to things,
like Ashley had asked if pre -existing conditions
exacerbate the problem, I think it also is a
superpower in a certain way. You've been coping
with things that other people haven't had to
your entire life. So you've got extra building
blocks for how to survive in challenging environments.
And I think that's like a part of you that actually,
if you feel the same, because obviously I'm not
inside your head, but I think that those are
things that could potentially make you even better
at surviving a field like that. I would say,
Kat, do you have any, I guess, like kind of along
those same lines, like coping mechanisms or things
that you think have worked for you in the past
for not only being able to recognize what you're
feeling, but how to like combat those issues?
Yeah, absolutely. When I first started, like
I've already talked about connection. So reaching
out and like being around people that. are very
familiar to you and your experience. Right. So
like I would try to rely on my husband about
work related stuff, but he's not set up for that.
You know, like he's a teacher. Bless his little
heart. So like finding people like a peer support
team of other forensic anthropologists or like
a group of people that do the same kind of job
is really important to rely on. So that connection
was was a big part of. my building of, you know,
rebuilding my resiliency. I also did a lot of
journaling in the beginning. So just like getting
all that stuff out of my head, I call it like
mindful decontamination, like purging the shit
and the funk out of your brain. Because again,
I thought like I was keeping it all up inside
my head because like, oh, for God's sakes, you
know, how dare I have bad feelings or like feeling
sad or like that's, you know, I'm so bad and
then I'm blaming and shaming and it's just getting
worse and worse. So writing things down, not
just the bad stuff, right? So like setting a,
you know, a timer for every day or sometimes
a couple of times a day and actually just writing.
And then you start to rely on that time. So you're
not necessarily like. twirling up in worry and
anxiety you're like okay wait I have this time
like a little bit later today so that was really
helpful for me also starting to rely on connecting
with people writing things down when I was really
having a hard time I got really serious about
like my nutrition, drinking a ton of water, you
know, like I stopped drinking alcohol. I really
focused on my sleep. So making sure that I was
getting good sleep. Which is harder to do when
you're working like an on -call job, but I certainly
like there are ways kind of around it. And then
also like setting goals for myself. So something
I could look forward to that had nothing to do
with dead people, you know, and that could be
anything for anybody, right? Like if you like
to knit or make sourdough starters and bread
or like, you know, jujitsu, like it doesn't have
to necessarily be like run a marathon because.
I don't run unless somebody's chasing me. But
like for some people, that's what they dig, right?
I did a lot of yoga in the beginning, which was
cool because like it was something that I was
terrible at and then I got really good at it.
So it was like a goal I could see myself progressing
towards. It didn't have anything to do with dead
people. So those are some really important things
that I recommend, really bringing it back to
basics like calm, sleeping, eating, writing,
purging. and setting goals i was actually ordered
to pick up hobbies that were not related to dead
people that's awesome i picked up photography
and archery and astronomy and that's yeah you
yeah that's that's one thing i tell all all of
my students all the grad students that come in
that's one thing i tell them is you have to have
a hobby that is not related to this field because
you will burn out faster than you can imagine.
Yeah, that was definitely another thing. When
I was diagnosed with PTSD, my doctor was like,
well, what else do you do? And I'm like, what
do you mean? What else do I do? Like, this is
it. And then I was like, oh, this is not healthy.
But I think a lot of times, you know, those like
back to basics that you were talking about, people
think are so simple that they're like. well,
of course I need a work -life balance. Of course
I need friends. Of course. But then like in your
actual day -to -day practice, you're like, do
I actually have those things? I say I do. Cause
you're like, yeah, it's fine. Like everything's
cool. And then you're like, actually I've worked
70 hours this week and I've slept maybe 20 and
I haven't eaten food in two days. What is going
on? But like, honestly, I don't, I. I tell people,
I think work -life balance for us is bullshit.
I mean, it just, it's not going to happen. So
the more you try to strive for that balance,
the more you're going to stress yourself out.
So recognizing that like that shit is not going
to, that ship has sailed, that's not going to
happen. And then finding somewhere else. So balance
for us isn't 50 -50. It's just not going to happen.
And so like really relying on that time that
you do have free, you know, taking your day off,
right? So you had to. work today right so what
else special are you gonna do for yourself because
you did have to like you know take a couple hours
to actually work or like maybe you can take another
day off um and finding finding that time like
you know because i used to work on call all the
time i was like okay well i'm not gonna rely
on this pto that i've are the um the time that
i've gotten um my doorbell's ringing i don't
know if you can hear that but um so then like
not relying on that money that I've, that I've
made extra and actually saving that for me for
something special or like saving the time that
I've gathered from working so much and like actually
taking that off, not just letting it sit in my,
in my queue, you know, never take that day off,
like actually take the day off and be off. Would
you say that like a key is kind of creating boundaries
wherever you can squeeze them? Because boundaries
don't come. 100 % saying no. That was my 2025
New Year's resolution. And that's so hard for
I think people in our field because you're so
used to trying to hustle just to get a foot in
the door. That saying no feels so painful. Yeah,
I think that's one thing that's even harder for
those getting started particularly those in masters
and really in phd work because you've got to
get you got to get your papers out as fast as
you possibly can you've got to get stuff um you
know got to get to conferences and present at
conferences all you can got to get the teaching
you got to get do the case it just this whole
massive list of everything you've got to do because
you're competing if it just even though you're
not it feels like your every day is a competition
if not with the person two universities over
with the person and the next lab bench yeah and
that becomes a real issue but i think a lot of
that like I feel most fields probably have that
competition. I don't want to say that's just
an anthropology thing, but I think being willing
to like talk with your cohort and willing, because
like competing is not necessarily a bad thing.
You know, it might make you work harder. It might
make you, you know, learn something that you
would have maybe not otherwise have. When you
notice yourself like only worrying about the
competing or only worrying about like, okay,
well, this person did this. So I have to do X,
Y, Z. And like that making those boundaries not
where they need to be. Where I really liked what
Kat had said about like, your balance isn't necessarily
50 -50. You have to find the balance for you.
And so it's like, well, if my balance, if I noticed
that like my mental health is doing okay. having
you know 70 % work and 30 % personal life then
that's my balance and that's okay other people's
balance might be 80 and 20 and so they probably
will get more done than me but that doesn't mean
I need to change my balance to be theirs because
that's when you're not going to be able to like
be yourself and you know you're not going to
do good work or do good work like anything like
work and life you're not going to be the best
you need to be. I know I had, I'm going to age
myself a little bit too. So on Facebook that
someone had wrote, essentially it was like, you
know, everyone has, you know, their plate of
stuff they can handle. And some people's plates
are made of steel and some people's plates are
made of paper, but that doesn't mean you should
put something that a steel plate can handle on
your paper plate. And that really like made me
like. stop and be like you know yeah and just
because i'm a paper plate doesn't mean that it's
worse because there's certain things that paper
plates can do that steel cannot do and so like
having to find the good in those differences
well um i think this has been a fantastic conversation
is one i that our field in not only forensic
anthropology, but all of forensic science and
anybody within the medical legal death investigation
sphere and is going to be tackling for the next
few while, next little while on how to properly
address this and right the ship. But with that,
I do want to thank Cap for coming on our podcast
today. I think it was a fantastic conversation.
I want to thank you so much. If any of our guests
have any questions for you, can they send you
an email or anything like that through us to
you? Is that okay? I'll send you guys the landing
page for the American Academy of Forensic Sciences
has a vicarious trauma committee. So we're going
to be putting a lot of stuff on our landing page
there. We're hoping to have a workshop out like
mid -year. So maybe August -ish. some sort of
trauma workshop um the theme of next year's conference
is actually back to basics so one of the huge
kind of sub topics of that is talking about vicarious
trauma so there's going to be a ton of really
great stuff um in new orleans in february awesome
i look forward to that yeah i really do thank
you so much and i can't wait to see everyone
again and just I don't know. I feel invigorated
by this conversation. So thank you. Oh, thank
you guys. It's great to see y 'all. Great to
see you too. Thank you all so very much. Thanks
everybody for listening. Don't forget to like
and subscribe and we'll see you next month. On
the bone club.