WEBVTT 00:00:40.520 --> 00:00:43.240 everyone, and welcome to the Bone Club. We had 00:00:43.240 --> 00:00:47.000 a great time in AFS at the last episode in Baltimore, 00:00:47.259 --> 00:00:51.259 though it was really freezing the entire episode. 00:00:51.479 --> 00:00:55.899 And we have Stephanie and our guest, Catherine, 00:00:55.979 --> 00:00:59.539 were both at the meeting there. I believe, Catherine, 00:00:59.600 --> 00:01:01.820 you were there since it was in your home place. 00:01:02.259 --> 00:01:06.799 And it's just too cold for anything. But we had 00:01:06.799 --> 00:01:12.480 a wonderful conversation about artificial intelligence 00:01:12.480 --> 00:01:19.260 and ethics and so we have a wonderful um episode 00:01:19.260 --> 00:01:23.000 today on vicarious trauma so you have with us 00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:27.319 today you have myself ashley we have stephanie 00:01:27.319 --> 00:01:32.799 and jenna and our guest katherine pope or cat 00:01:32.799 --> 00:01:35.799 who is a doctoral student at the university of 00:01:35.799 --> 00:01:39.700 maryland who is Also a diplomat with the American 00:01:39.700 --> 00:01:42.680 Board of Medical Legal Death Investigators, a 00:01:42.680 --> 00:01:44.959 fellow in the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, 00:01:45.180 --> 00:01:48.540 has worked in medical examiner's offices and 00:01:48.540 --> 00:01:53.079 RTI International, SNA International, as well 00:01:53.079 --> 00:01:58.079 as serves on the Vicarious Trauma Committee with 00:01:58.079 --> 00:02:03.140 AAFS. So just to be a little lighthearted here, 00:02:03.359 --> 00:02:10.000 hello? Everybody want to say hello? Hey, everyone. 00:02:10.060 --> 00:02:12.479 It's good to see y 'all again. Well, hear you, 00:02:12.539 --> 00:02:16.840 maybe. You hear us. Welcome back. It's good to 00:02:16.840 --> 00:02:19.900 be back. I missed last week, so I'm so excited 00:02:19.900 --> 00:02:27.020 to be here. So, Kat, what got you interested 00:02:27.020 --> 00:02:31.319 in anthropology? Most of our listeners are undergraduate 00:02:31.319 --> 00:02:34.099 students interested in forensic anthropology. 00:02:34.919 --> 00:02:40.699 What got you interested into this field? Are 00:02:40.699 --> 00:02:45.419 you muted? I've got a cold and I'm coughing a 00:02:45.419 --> 00:02:50.080 lot. Is that better? You're good. Awesome. Yeah, 00:02:50.259 --> 00:02:54.639 I am. I knew, I mean, probably since middle school 00:02:54.639 --> 00:02:57.039 that I really wanted to do something abnormal. 00:02:58.199 --> 00:03:00.639 Both of my parents are first responders and I 00:03:00.639 --> 00:03:03.280 used to go with my dad. down to the firehouse 00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:05.780 and hang out for the day. And I remember one 00:03:05.780 --> 00:03:08.400 day we went on a call and we ended up at the 00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:10.460 hospital. I'm just hanging out in the ER and 00:03:10.460 --> 00:03:15.199 this guy gets wheeled in and he had been researching 00:03:15.199 --> 00:03:17.840 how to commit suicide. I mean, he had a stack 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:20.719 like three feet tall of papers. This is back 00:03:20.719 --> 00:03:25.419 when you had to print stuff. he had spent all 00:03:25.419 --> 00:03:27.180 this time and effort like trying to figure out 00:03:27.180 --> 00:03:30.120 how to kill himself and he didn't succeed still 00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:32.080 you know he had made it to the hospital somebody 00:03:32.080 --> 00:03:34.620 called 911 and and they were helping him out 00:03:34.620 --> 00:03:37.500 and i was like wow it's so crazy you know like 00:03:37.500 --> 00:03:39.659 all that effort what he could have done you know 00:03:39.659 --> 00:03:41.560 he could have cured cancer or like and it just 00:03:41.560 --> 00:03:44.199 got my wheels kind of going on on the abnormal 00:03:44.199 --> 00:03:46.759 thing and i just from that time forward i was 00:03:46.759 --> 00:03:51.990 really interested in psychology forensic investigation, 00:03:52.030 --> 00:03:55.889 and I kind of snowballed into reading, you know, 00:03:55.889 --> 00:03:58.069 the Kathy Wright's books that were out back in 00:03:58.069 --> 00:04:01.150 the day and watching CSI. I'm definitely a kid 00:04:01.150 --> 00:04:04.310 of the 90s, so that was my jam. But when I went 00:04:04.310 --> 00:04:07.689 to college, one of the big forensic anthropologists 00:04:07.689 --> 00:04:10.349 in the world, Laura Fulginetti, was teaching 00:04:10.349 --> 00:04:12.750 a special course. She had gone to the tiny little 00:04:12.750 --> 00:04:14.590 college I went to, and she would come up every 00:04:14.590 --> 00:04:16.850 two years and teach forensic anthropology. So 00:04:16.850 --> 00:04:20.110 I just, it was like, good luck it was kismet 00:04:20.110 --> 00:04:23.250 that i got to take an osteology class um and 00:04:23.250 --> 00:04:26.670 forensic you know methods and just clicked it 00:04:26.670 --> 00:04:28.930 was like everything made sense about bones you 00:04:28.930 --> 00:04:32.230 know like it's it's just to me so obvious that 00:04:32.230 --> 00:04:35.209 that's what you do you know like that's that's 00:04:35.209 --> 00:04:37.870 what i wanted to do for the rest of my life so 00:04:37.870 --> 00:04:41.279 i went got my master's degree I knew I didn't 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:43.139 want to be a professor. I've never wanted to 00:04:43.139 --> 00:04:46.079 teach. I love talking to folks. I love talking 00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:50.040 to students, but it's not my jam. So I knew I 00:04:50.040 --> 00:04:51.720 wanted to go right into death investigation. 00:04:52.339 --> 00:04:56.060 And very fortunately, every office I've worked 00:04:56.060 --> 00:04:58.879 at has let me use my forensic anthro background 00:04:58.879 --> 00:05:04.160 to assist in investigation of death. So not just 00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:06.939 skeletons in the woods, but we also got to use, 00:05:07.079 --> 00:05:09.319 I got to use my experience to help with trauma 00:05:09.319 --> 00:05:12.579 analysis. positive scientific identification 00:05:12.579 --> 00:05:16.040 of tentatively identified, you know, decomp or 00:05:16.040 --> 00:05:20.600 fire victims, mass fatalities. So I really got 00:05:20.600 --> 00:05:24.319 to use, you know, my practice at the ground level, 00:05:24.379 --> 00:05:26.759 which was really, really cool. And then I kind 00:05:26.759 --> 00:05:29.160 of snowballed into a career for the last five 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:32.439 years with NamUs. So I assist with missing and 00:05:32.439 --> 00:05:35.439 unidentified persons cases, which I did until 00:05:35.439 --> 00:05:38.899 about six months ago. So I feel really honored 00:05:38.899 --> 00:05:41.220 and lucky because I think there are not a lot 00:05:41.220 --> 00:05:43.720 of jobs out there, but for people who are listening, 00:05:43.779 --> 00:05:46.279 who are really passionate about human osteology, 00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:49.839 anatomy, forensic investigation, there are places 00:05:49.839 --> 00:05:53.560 that you can use your experience and background 00:05:53.560 --> 00:05:55.759 for sure. You don't have to go, you know, there's 00:05:55.759 --> 00:05:58.360 not one right way to get into this field. There 00:05:58.360 --> 00:06:00.519 are lots of really cool places we can, we can 00:06:00.519 --> 00:06:08.040 use our skills. Yeah, I find that. To be rather 00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:11.699 true, there are multiple avenues. There's not 00:06:11.699 --> 00:06:16.279 one straight path that everybody must go down, 00:06:16.459 --> 00:06:26.040 which is often recommended, I find. And it's 00:06:26.040 --> 00:06:33.600 just strange. I just don't understand the strangeness 00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:38.639 of it. I also find that like if you everyone 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:41.240 goes on that same path then everyone's learned 00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:45.439 exactly the same thing and then the field stagnates 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:48.000 and so like if you have people that come from 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:51.379 all different backgrounds into this field they 00:06:51.379 --> 00:06:53.879 might bring something like from psychology like 00:06:53.879 --> 00:06:56.779 what we're going to talk about today that maybe 00:06:56.779 --> 00:06:59.379 we never really thought of because you know we 00:06:59.379 --> 00:07:01.000 only took our anthropology classes or we only 00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:07.339 took you know whatever that we can use more than 00:07:07.339 --> 00:07:12.160 just anthropology to do anthropology and I love 00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:15.220 what you said about that when you you took your 00:07:15.220 --> 00:07:17.100 osteo course and the bones just clicked with 00:07:17.100 --> 00:07:18.639 you because that's what happened with me like 00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:21.180 I was in a different field but bones always just 00:07:21.180 --> 00:07:24.160 like I don't know it's kind of crazy to say but 00:07:24.160 --> 00:07:26.639 they like spoke to me it just makes sense the 00:07:26.639 --> 00:07:29.680 bones just make sense and uh I affiliate on that 00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:32.439 one isn't there a book labeled that or something 00:07:33.449 --> 00:07:38.129 bones talk or something i think so maybe your 00:07:38.129 --> 00:07:42.269 next novel oh no no no one needs to read my books 00:07:42.269 --> 00:07:47.910 we'll just hear your voice instead well i wish 00:07:47.910 --> 00:07:52.990 i'd scream sometimes more than just talk just 00:07:52.990 --> 00:07:58.310 like write down your name that'd be cool name 00:07:59.410 --> 00:08:03.209 when we when we last were alive what happened 00:08:03.209 --> 00:08:08.089 to you hey sometimes i mean i don't know how 00:08:08.089 --> 00:08:10.850 much i'll believe in like supernatural things 00:08:10.850 --> 00:08:16.509 but sometimes at work i definitely there's something 00:08:16.509 --> 00:08:19.730 going on because every once in a while like not 00:08:19.730 --> 00:08:22.490 necessarily that they'll write their name down 00:08:22.490 --> 00:08:24.670 because how how lucky we would be if that happened 00:08:24.670 --> 00:08:27.290 but like certain things will happen that like 00:08:27.290 --> 00:08:30.410 something catches your eye That like, maybe you 00:08:30.410 --> 00:08:33.370 would have missed otherwise or whatever that 00:08:33.370 --> 00:08:35.549 you're like, why did, why did, why was I getting 00:08:35.549 --> 00:08:37.809 stuck on this one thing? And that ends up being 00:08:37.809 --> 00:08:39.429 the thing that IDs the person. And you're like, 00:08:39.470 --> 00:08:42.750 they were pulling something on the other side, 00:08:42.789 --> 00:08:45.289 trying to be like, look at this. Or at least 00:08:45.289 --> 00:08:52.490 that's what I think. So cool. Well, Kat, you 00:08:52.490 --> 00:08:55.389 mentioned something about your childhood and 00:08:55.389 --> 00:09:00.559 I think it does bring it up. lead into today's 00:09:00.559 --> 00:09:08.600 topic, which is going in as a child into the 00:09:08.600 --> 00:09:18.659 ER, seeing what you saw. And that has to leave 00:09:18.659 --> 00:09:22.399 some sort of mark, whether for good or for bad. 00:09:23.539 --> 00:09:33.220 And with that, Is that what we would call vicarious 00:09:33.220 --> 00:09:39.299 trauma? And if not, what is that? Yeah, I think 00:09:39.299 --> 00:09:43.759 it really is like more of a culmination, like 00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:47.679 a buildup of secondary trauma. So if you experience, 00:09:47.940 --> 00:09:51.379 I think a lot of the times it's thought of with 00:09:51.379 --> 00:09:54.080 first responders, so police officers, therapists, 00:09:54.379 --> 00:10:01.029 people who witness. daily, you know, in this 00:10:01.029 --> 00:10:04.210 process of their jobs, people that, you know, 00:10:04.210 --> 00:10:07.289 forensic practitioners that look at child pornography. 00:10:08.629 --> 00:10:12.809 These people are thought of to have this buildup 00:10:12.809 --> 00:10:15.029 of awful things happening to them, right? So 00:10:15.029 --> 00:10:17.990 primary trauma is that when you see something 00:10:17.990 --> 00:10:20.110 firsthand, like if you see somebody get hit by 00:10:20.110 --> 00:10:23.309 a car or if you get hit by a car, and that secondary 00:10:23.309 --> 00:10:26.860 trauma is when you... hear about it or if you 00:10:26.860 --> 00:10:29.879 witness it or, you know, these are kind of fluid 00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:33.120 terms, right? But the vicarious trauma is the 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:37.460 buildup of that stuff. So, you know, and my husband 00:10:37.460 --> 00:10:39.919 even talks about, he calls it tertiary trauma 00:10:39.919 --> 00:10:42.059 because I'll have a really bad case and I'll 00:10:42.059 --> 00:10:43.919 tell him about it. So then he's hearing about 00:10:43.919 --> 00:10:49.700 it like third hand. But really, I mean, the bottom 00:10:49.700 --> 00:10:53.580 line is that what we're finding and what researchers 00:10:53.580 --> 00:10:56.379 are finding is is hearing about this stuff is 00:10:56.379 --> 00:10:58.820 almost as bad as seeing it or experiencing it 00:10:58.820 --> 00:11:02.980 yourself um and can leave just as permanent of 00:11:02.980 --> 00:11:06.120 a mark on you um if you don't get the opportunity 00:11:06.120 --> 00:11:11.559 to resolve that sort of trauma so you know um 00:11:11.559 --> 00:11:15.940 i think when i was a young person you know like 00:11:15.940 --> 00:11:19.139 we talked about stuff bad stuff at the dinner 00:11:19.139 --> 00:11:22.120 table all the time because my dad was a paramedic 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:24.899 and my mom was a ER nurse so that was just normal 00:11:24.899 --> 00:11:29.179 and then my husband he's a teacher my husband's 00:11:29.179 --> 00:11:31.659 mom is a teacher like they didn't talk about 00:11:31.659 --> 00:11:33.700 that stuff at the dinner table so I didn't realize 00:11:33.700 --> 00:11:37.539 that it was traumatizing for them to hear that 00:11:37.539 --> 00:11:40.419 stuff until until you're like oh yeah I guess 00:11:40.419 --> 00:11:44.519 this isn't normal dinner talk but So those terms 00:11:44.519 --> 00:11:47.740 too can be used differently with different people. 00:11:47.820 --> 00:11:53.019 Certain people can experience more vicarious 00:11:53.019 --> 00:11:55.159 trauma than other people if they're not used 00:11:55.159 --> 00:11:58.580 to that sort of thing. And I think that's what 00:11:58.580 --> 00:12:02.419 really, what I hope to kind of clear the way 00:12:02.419 --> 00:12:04.779 with folks that are coming into this field is 00:12:04.779 --> 00:12:06.820 students aren't really prepared for this sort 00:12:06.820 --> 00:12:11.019 of thing, you know? And again, I'm an older person. 00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:13.820 So back in the day, it was like, We definitely 00:12:13.820 --> 00:12:16.059 didn't get training in how to talk to families 00:12:16.059 --> 00:12:20.519 or how to handle, you know, handle, yes, physically 00:12:20.519 --> 00:12:23.220 handle human remains. But like going home at 00:12:23.220 --> 00:12:25.480 the end of the day and smelling like decomp or, 00:12:25.659 --> 00:12:29.799 you know, thinking about like macerating a body 00:12:29.799 --> 00:12:33.440 is. you know, can be kind of a, can we curse 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:36.519 on this podcast? Yeah. Okay. It's kind of a mind 00:12:36.519 --> 00:12:39.460 fuck, right? Like you're playing around in somebody's 00:12:39.460 --> 00:12:42.860 bits and innards and it's, it's really, so preparing 00:12:42.860 --> 00:12:46.440 people for that sort of thing and that cumulative 00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:49.139 effect of, of dealing with that sort of thing 00:12:49.139 --> 00:12:52.639 is really what, what I hope just simply talking 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:55.980 about it. Well, we'll kind of navigate and advocate 00:12:55.980 --> 00:12:59.620 for people and get more familiar with them. And 00:12:59.620 --> 00:13:06.279 I don't know if it is what it is, but I know 00:13:06.279 --> 00:13:07.980 this with some of the people that I've worked 00:13:07.980 --> 00:13:12.840 with, both, you know, macerating remains, dissecting 00:13:12.840 --> 00:13:15.720 remains, working on cases, things like that. 00:13:17.820 --> 00:13:23.019 It's, you work on the case, you work with the 00:13:23.019 --> 00:13:29.909 remains and just stoic or even jovial. Because 00:13:29.909 --> 00:13:33.330 it's just that there's something just disconnect. 00:13:34.230 --> 00:13:41.669 But this minor, not even relate, like a glass 00:13:41.669 --> 00:13:46.509 breaking or something just otherworldly, just 00:13:46.509 --> 00:13:50.570 completely outside. And that brings you to tears. 00:13:51.049 --> 00:13:55.149 And it's just this complete disconnect of one 00:13:55.149 --> 00:14:04.440 from the other. Jenna can attest to this because 00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:08.419 I've told her this as a student. You can always 00:14:08.419 --> 00:14:12.320 tell who's going to make it in this field by 00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:18.379 the ones who can survive working on their first, 00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:23.559 well, to be crass, their first kid. If you can't 00:14:23.559 --> 00:14:26.759 do that, you're not going to survive this field. 00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:31.019 I don't think. But the question then becomes, 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:36.299 how do we process that? How do we deal with that 00:14:36.299 --> 00:14:42.179 and cope with dealing with those situations frequently? 00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:46.659 Yeah, and I always try to remind people too, 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:49.299 it's, you know, we are built to, we're as scientists, 00:14:49.379 --> 00:14:53.620 so we're prepared to compartmentalize that, right? 00:14:54.620 --> 00:14:56.679 You know, set everybody up in human anatomical 00:14:56.679 --> 00:14:59.220 position and to do your analysis and write your 00:14:59.220 --> 00:15:01.279 report and you go through these very methodical 00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:04.200 processes and that's fine. Like you said, then 00:15:04.200 --> 00:15:06.679 it's like somebody in your office is an asshole 00:15:06.679 --> 00:15:09.480 or, you know, like the water cooler is empty. 00:15:09.899 --> 00:15:12.919 You know, it's those routine mundane things that 00:15:12.919 --> 00:15:15.820 happen where that really throws you for a loop. 00:15:15.860 --> 00:15:18.840 And I think to answer your question, it's building 00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:23.960 those resiliencies. within your daily practice 00:15:23.960 --> 00:15:26.320 so like making sure that you're actually recognizing 00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:28.899 that you're feeling a little like I'm a little 00:15:28.899 --> 00:15:31.419 on edge you know I just had to to put together 00:15:31.419 --> 00:15:35.940 a kid or um you know this is my third homicide 00:15:35.940 --> 00:15:38.399 of the week I'm exhausted just being able to 00:15:38.399 --> 00:15:44.379 say that name it um and then going forward you 00:15:44.379 --> 00:15:48.379 know recognizing with your colleagues that you 00:15:48.379 --> 00:15:51.690 work with um when you see something kind of abnormal. 00:15:51.889 --> 00:15:53.870 So that's what happened with me. I mean, I started, 00:15:54.090 --> 00:15:57.070 I was fine. I was killing it and work, but then 00:15:57.070 --> 00:15:58.870 like these little things would start to drive 00:15:58.870 --> 00:16:01.250 me crazy. And I'm a very easygoing person, but 00:16:01.250 --> 00:16:04.490 like I worked an entire weekend, you know, and 00:16:04.490 --> 00:16:06.990 I also handled acute cases that were not skeletonized. 00:16:07.029 --> 00:16:10.370 So I'm awake for 40 hours straight. And I took 00:16:10.370 --> 00:16:12.730 my, my cell phone would not stop ringing and 00:16:12.730 --> 00:16:16.470 I slammed it on the ground. I was trying to take 00:16:16.470 --> 00:16:19.080 a dog walk and just like chill. And it would 00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:21.000 not shut up. So I slammed it on the concrete 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:23.960 and broke it. And that's not something that's 00:16:23.960 --> 00:16:27.440 normal for me. Right. But instead, my my manager 00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:31.200 wrote me up and I got in trouble. But instead 00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:32.960 of being like, oh, my gosh, you know, you're 00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:35.379 a nice you're a good person. You don't break 00:16:35.379 --> 00:16:39.019 state equipment. Are you OK? Let's get you some 00:16:39.019 --> 00:16:41.379 help. Let's get you some coverage. She wrote 00:16:41.379 --> 00:16:43.220 me up and I got in trouble. So that just kind 00:16:43.220 --> 00:16:46.879 of that compounded the trauma and made me think, 00:16:46.940 --> 00:16:49.919 oh, I'm wrong for feeling upset and then just 00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:52.960 made it worse. So what really needs to happen 00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:56.379 in our field is that appreciation that this is 00:16:56.379 --> 00:17:00.720 tough, right? But then also on top of the tough 00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:03.919 is the normal everyday stuff. And let's just 00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:06.980 give each other a break and recognize and start 00:17:06.980 --> 00:17:10.769 to build that resiliency. I would say, sorry, 00:17:11.069 --> 00:17:15.930 go ahead, Jenna. When it comes to vicarious trauma, 00:17:16.150 --> 00:17:19.130 everybody is going to be different. For some 00:17:19.130 --> 00:17:21.450 people, it might kind of creep up on you slowly. 00:17:22.089 --> 00:17:23.869 And for other people, you might just kind of 00:17:23.869 --> 00:17:26.069 get smacked by it right in the face and you're 00:17:26.069 --> 00:17:30.630 just on your butt. For those who find that it 00:17:30.630 --> 00:17:32.490 creeps up on them, what are some of those like 00:17:32.490 --> 00:17:35.630 early warning signs that you might be starting 00:17:35.630 --> 00:17:38.259 to experience? the vicarious trauma or you're 00:17:38.259 --> 00:17:41.480 starting to enter the zone of PTSD or things 00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:42.759 like that? I mean, everyone will be different, 00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:45.660 but are there some key warning signs that you 00:17:45.660 --> 00:17:47.460 would advise people to be on the lookout for? 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:52.339 Yeah, there's a great slide I can send to you 00:17:52.339 --> 00:17:54.140 guys if you want to post it with the podcast, 00:17:54.200 --> 00:18:00.240 but PTSD diagnoses have to occur after the event 00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:03.619 and that the symptoms that you meet, I think 00:18:03.619 --> 00:18:06.569 they're like eight criteria that you have to 00:18:06.569 --> 00:18:09.190 meet and it has to interrupt your life and it 00:18:09.190 --> 00:18:11.210 has to go on for a certain amount of time. I 00:18:11.210 --> 00:18:15.170 believe it's a month or six months. So those 00:18:15.170 --> 00:18:17.549 criteria are actually really great check engine 00:18:17.549 --> 00:18:22.029 lights for people to recognize, oh, something's 00:18:22.029 --> 00:18:24.549 going on. You know, like this is obviously starting 00:18:24.549 --> 00:18:27.230 to interrupt my life. It's lasting a long time. 00:18:27.490 --> 00:18:30.910 Some of those things are like being hypervigilant. 00:18:30.950 --> 00:18:34.900 So that was me. Again, I'm a very easygoing person. 00:18:35.339 --> 00:18:37.819 One day my husband drove off and my kids like 00:18:37.819 --> 00:18:40.059 started chasing after him in the car. And I was 00:18:40.059 --> 00:18:42.319 like, oh my God, like you're going to fall under 00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:45.539 the wheels and get crushed. And like, that's 00:18:45.539 --> 00:18:47.279 not going to happen. That's not, it doesn't happen, 00:18:47.400 --> 00:18:49.180 you know, or like they're playing in the backyard 00:18:49.180 --> 00:18:53.420 and I see a tree limb just fall on them. Or I 00:18:53.420 --> 00:18:55.779 had a drowning of an eight -year -old and I started 00:18:55.779 --> 00:18:58.339 literally flashing through all the little kids 00:18:58.339 --> 00:19:00.819 that I knew in my neighborhood, the face of. 00:19:01.259 --> 00:19:05.859 on the decedent. So that's one of the symptoms 00:19:05.859 --> 00:19:11.680 that qualifies you for PTSD diagnosis. Doing 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:14.019 things that you don't necessarily want to, like 00:19:14.019 --> 00:19:17.960 drinking too much, doom scrolling, buying too 00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:23.079 many things. Those things by themselves, these 00:19:23.079 --> 00:19:25.380 eight criteria by themselves don't necessarily 00:19:25.380 --> 00:19:28.619 mean that you're, yes, you may be having a little 00:19:28.619 --> 00:19:31.740 bit of disordered. thinking, you may be experiencing 00:19:31.740 --> 00:19:34.279 some vicarious trauma, but when you start to 00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:36.440 combine them together and they last for a long 00:19:36.440 --> 00:19:40.539 time, that's when you're in danger of, of having 00:19:40.539 --> 00:19:43.839 that PTSD. And it's just, it requires, you know, 00:19:43.859 --> 00:19:46.799 like a little bit more of an intervention at 00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:50.019 that point. And I was definitely diagnosed with 00:19:50.019 --> 00:19:55.859 PTSD. I would say this is kind of where, like, 00:19:55.960 --> 00:19:59.859 for me, my, like, grad school research was all 00:19:59.859 --> 00:20:03.720 about like cognitive thinking and bias and other 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:06.819 things like that how do you think I guess that 00:20:06.819 --> 00:20:11.420 plays into vicarious trauma because for me like 00:20:11.420 --> 00:20:16.559 my understanding at least is like if the field 00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:20.920 keeps progressing in the way that some people 00:20:20.920 --> 00:20:24.960 want us to of we're objective we can compartmentalize 00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:30.349 we are separate from our cases we are not we're 00:20:30.349 --> 00:20:33.269 just doing the science we're not a part of the 00:20:33.269 --> 00:20:36.349 science i think that's only going to make the 00:20:36.349 --> 00:20:39.349 vicarious trauma worse because you're ignoring 00:20:39.349 --> 00:20:42.130 the impact you have on the science and the science 00:20:42.130 --> 00:20:44.890 has on you um but i just kind of wanted your 00:20:44.890 --> 00:20:49.430 opinion on how you think like objectivity or 00:20:49.430 --> 00:20:52.750 like people pretending to be objective it has 00:20:52.750 --> 00:20:58.670 on I love that. I'm all for objectivity and providing 00:20:58.670 --> 00:21:03.690 unbiased analysis. I mean, I think there have 00:21:03.690 --> 00:21:06.650 been many situations where people have overstepped 00:21:06.650 --> 00:21:10.910 and over described, you know, trauma or taken 00:21:10.910 --> 00:21:14.069 our methods a little too far and said things 00:21:14.069 --> 00:21:17.390 that can't possibly be true. You know, like race 00:21:17.390 --> 00:21:19.690 is a social construct. We can't, you know, we 00:21:19.690 --> 00:21:23.230 cannot. be doing what we were back in like the 00:21:23.230 --> 00:21:26.130 70s and 80s. And, and I see lots of examples 00:21:26.130 --> 00:21:28.349 of that, you know, when I was working in NamUs 00:21:28.349 --> 00:21:31.490 with reviewing old, old historical cases, there 00:21:31.490 --> 00:21:34.210 has been a lot of issues with that in our field. 00:21:34.230 --> 00:21:38.789 However, I don't think I mean, this is my professional 00:21:38.789 --> 00:21:40.990 opinion, I don't think we can completely divorce 00:21:40.990 --> 00:21:44.420 ourselves from the casework that we're doing. 00:21:44.539 --> 00:21:47.599 I mean, there has been suggestions that we could 00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:50.319 like not know anything about the case and only 00:21:50.319 --> 00:21:53.019 look at, you know, the decedent and the remains. 00:21:53.220 --> 00:21:56.599 And that's just not possible. We need the cultural 00:21:56.599 --> 00:21:58.500 artifacts that are found with the remains. We 00:21:58.500 --> 00:22:01.680 need to know like the location. We have to find 00:22:01.680 --> 00:22:05.920 a happy medium for that. And I think that's definitely 00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:10.829 true with, with. our experience within, you know, 00:22:10.849 --> 00:22:13.809 this field and being able to be good anthropologists, 00:22:13.869 --> 00:22:16.029 right? Good anthropologists look at the entire 00:22:16.029 --> 00:22:20.809 picture. We have to be a part of the medical 00:22:20.809 --> 00:22:22.690 legal system. We have to be part of the criminal 00:22:22.690 --> 00:22:25.150 justice system, but we are also advocates for, 00:22:25.230 --> 00:22:29.349 you know, humanitarian efforts too. So, and I 00:22:29.349 --> 00:22:32.410 think that my experience working in the medical 00:22:32.410 --> 00:22:36.369 examiner's offices has just been like that voice 00:22:36.369 --> 00:22:40.759 that's kind of different, you know, and I feel 00:22:40.759 --> 00:22:43.500 very honored that most of the places that I've 00:22:43.500 --> 00:22:46.619 worked has listened to me as that different voice. 00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:50.019 And I think many, you know, people who are listening 00:22:50.019 --> 00:22:52.140 to this that are getting ready maybe to go into 00:22:52.140 --> 00:22:54.259 medical examiner's offices, you probably will 00:22:54.259 --> 00:22:57.569 work by yourself unless you work. with DPAA, 00:22:57.789 --> 00:23:01.150 you know, or in New York City or like Harris 00:23:01.150 --> 00:23:03.250 County, like there are very few offices that 00:23:03.250 --> 00:23:05.690 have more than one forensic anthropologist on 00:23:05.690 --> 00:23:11.509 staff. So part of our, I think part of our goal 00:23:11.509 --> 00:23:14.109 when we're in there is to be a representative, 00:23:14.289 --> 00:23:17.609 showing this kind of like full approach, right? 00:23:17.690 --> 00:23:20.630 Being a good cultural advocate, being, you know, 00:23:20.630 --> 00:23:24.349 but also a good scientific advocate. And that's 00:23:24.349 --> 00:23:28.549 what I've found. I think it can be really hard 00:23:28.549 --> 00:23:31.869 like to to work alone too I mean being the sole 00:23:31.869 --> 00:23:34.109 practitioner like you don't really have anybody 00:23:34.109 --> 00:23:38.349 to rely on so I'm a member of SOFA, which is 00:23:38.349 --> 00:23:40.450 a Society of Forensic Anthropologists. So we 00:23:40.450 --> 00:23:43.230 like bounce ideas. We can peer support or peer 00:23:43.230 --> 00:23:45.630 review each other's reports. So send each other 00:23:45.630 --> 00:23:48.269 pictures and like, hey, I've never seen this 00:23:48.269 --> 00:23:50.369 trauma before. Will you take a look at it? So 00:23:50.369 --> 00:23:53.950 that's a really good way to kind of build resiliency, 00:23:53.950 --> 00:23:56.730 too, is, you know, like things like addiction 00:23:56.730 --> 00:23:59.589 and like PTSD, they make you feel very alone. 00:23:59.829 --> 00:24:02.589 I mean, I felt I was so embarrassed, but like. 00:24:03.210 --> 00:24:05.430 My victims were supposed to be the victims, not 00:24:05.430 --> 00:24:07.609 me. Like I was, you know, I signed up for this. 00:24:07.630 --> 00:24:09.849 I was supposed to be, you know, muscle up, buttercup, 00:24:09.950 --> 00:24:13.390 right? But when I started talking about it out 00:24:13.390 --> 00:24:15.569 loud and saying like, oh, I'm struggling, I'm 00:24:15.569 --> 00:24:19.009 having a hard time. So many people were like, 00:24:19.109 --> 00:24:21.829 oh my gosh, me too. So that's another way to 00:24:21.829 --> 00:24:26.910 kind of, to get help. And it doesn't make you 00:24:26.910 --> 00:24:29.630 biased at all. Like if you have to ask for assistance. 00:24:31.230 --> 00:24:32.829 That doesn't make you a bad person. It makes 00:24:32.829 --> 00:24:34.890 you a human that wants to learn more things, 00:24:35.049 --> 00:24:37.210 you know, right? And I think for so long, too, 00:24:37.470 --> 00:24:40.769 forensic anthropologists, like they were leaned 00:24:40.769 --> 00:24:43.849 on by professionals, law enforcement, like to 00:24:43.849 --> 00:24:46.150 have the right answer, like to always guess the 00:24:46.150 --> 00:24:48.230 race, you know, of the person or like always 00:24:48.230 --> 00:24:50.109 have to know if it's male or female or like, 00:24:50.109 --> 00:24:52.289 was he a tennis player, you know, out on the 00:24:52.289 --> 00:24:55.230 scene? I was like, I can't get comfortable with 00:24:55.230 --> 00:24:57.490 saying, you have to get comfortable saying, like, 00:24:57.549 --> 00:24:59.869 I'm not going to tell you that right now. I need 00:24:59.869 --> 00:25:01.950 to take these remains back to the lab. I need 00:25:01.950 --> 00:25:05.569 to do further analysis. And I also may not be 00:25:05.569 --> 00:25:09.109 able to tell you, you know, their population 00:25:09.109 --> 00:25:12.210 affinity. You know, I may not be able to say 00:25:12.210 --> 00:25:15.130 that. And that's something that many folks in 00:25:15.130 --> 00:25:17.809 the back of the day did not really feel comfortable 00:25:17.809 --> 00:25:20.859 doing. That's definitely the future of our field 00:25:20.859 --> 00:25:23.779 too. And with that comes a more confidence and 00:25:23.779 --> 00:25:25.740 people being able to say like, I'm struggling 00:25:25.740 --> 00:25:29.720 mentally or I'm, you know, whatever. Being okay 00:25:29.720 --> 00:25:36.640 with that gray area. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And 00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:40.559 I think as a field where we are starting to see, 00:25:40.579 --> 00:25:44.619 you can start to see it with young people coming 00:25:44.619 --> 00:25:49.880 up, not necessarily. within the field but within 00:25:49.880 --> 00:25:52.299 law enforcement young law enforcement officers 00:25:52.299 --> 00:25:56.700 that are willing to accept more of a gray answer 00:25:56.700 --> 00:26:02.680 than say 15 years ago or more where they wanted 00:26:02.680 --> 00:26:07.859 black and white and and that i think or asian 00:26:07.859 --> 00:26:12.920 is going to change or asian that's a joke yes 00:26:12.920 --> 00:26:22.230 um One thing that does pop into my head, and 00:26:22.230 --> 00:26:25.490 it's because I deal with this on a personal level, 00:26:25.589 --> 00:26:32.390 is when you struggle with, and struggle is not 00:26:32.390 --> 00:26:35.329 necessarily the right word, but when you deal 00:26:35.329 --> 00:26:42.089 with an underlying mental health condition. For 00:26:42.089 --> 00:26:44.789 me, it's bipolar disorder and borderline personality 00:26:44.789 --> 00:26:54.180 disorder. Does, in what you have seen, does interactions 00:26:54.180 --> 00:26:56.740 within the field, particularly within case work, 00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:05.599 exacerbate or does, is there a way to separate 00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:11.779 the two? Sort of just, well, these are in this 00:27:11.779 --> 00:27:14.700 category and this is PTSD and secondary trauma 00:27:14.700 --> 00:27:18.519 over here, or is it just? well this is just one 00:27:18.519 --> 00:27:23.299 big ugly mess and you need to go see the grippy 00:27:23.299 --> 00:27:28.859 socks distribution center i don't have an answer 00:27:28.859 --> 00:27:35.720 to that i mean i think um in my experience i 00:27:35.720 --> 00:27:38.660 am my work you know like it's such a huge part 00:27:38.660 --> 00:27:42.420 of my life that i and i think that was not necessarily 00:27:42.420 --> 00:27:46.119 the problem but like what led me down the road 00:27:46.119 --> 00:27:51.970 of kind of burning out so hard was that I did, 00:27:52.049 --> 00:27:54.609 like I described myself as a forensic anthropologist 00:27:54.609 --> 00:27:57.910 first, you know, before being a mom or being 00:27:57.910 --> 00:28:03.470 a spouse. So I think, you know, our mental health 00:28:03.470 --> 00:28:06.549 conditions are a part of us. They're who we are. 00:28:07.650 --> 00:28:10.210 Just like our jobs are a part of us and they 00:28:10.210 --> 00:28:14.900 are our experiences. I don't think they're necessarily 00:28:14.900 --> 00:28:22.000 a problem. I think they lead us to want to advocate 00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:27.259 more for our clients, for our victims. If we 00:28:27.259 --> 00:28:31.140 see ourselves, and I don't necessarily believe 00:28:31.140 --> 00:28:34.339 in empathy because we can never know really truly 00:28:34.339 --> 00:28:38.240 what people are feeling like, but if we understand 00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:41.000 that we are just a part of our community and 00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:44.029 the people, then... then we can understand that 00:28:44.029 --> 00:28:46.869 everybody deserves their name, right? And that's 00:28:46.869 --> 00:28:50.609 why we try so hard and we care so much about 00:28:50.609 --> 00:28:52.690 the people that we work on because we believe 00:28:52.690 --> 00:28:54.930 that they deserve to have their identities back. 00:28:55.869 --> 00:28:58.769 At least that's what I believe. Yeah, I think 00:28:58.769 --> 00:29:03.250 in some ways the things that, at least in my 00:29:03.250 --> 00:29:07.490 case, have happened to me made me more equipped 00:29:07.490 --> 00:29:10.220 for the job. And in some ways, they made it harder 00:29:10.220 --> 00:29:14.940 to process things when they got hard. But I think 00:29:14.940 --> 00:29:17.039 a lot of people would ask me, like, how do you 00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:19.819 do that? Like, how do you go in there to people's 00:29:19.819 --> 00:29:22.240 homes when it's a fire scene and collect dead 00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:25.859 bodies? And for me, it's, I know that it's something 00:29:25.859 --> 00:29:29.759 that I'm good at. And I have lost, I lost my 00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:32.960 brother a year before entering the program. But 00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:34.619 I lost my brother to cancer. So I got answers. 00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:39.000 and losing him was really hard and in some ways 00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:41.259 it makes it harder to handle things in any given 00:29:41.259 --> 00:29:44.880 situation but it also makes me work harder for 00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:48.259 the victims families i think i can compartmentalize 00:29:48.259 --> 00:29:51.859 how awful a scene is or what i'm looking at um 00:29:51.859 --> 00:29:54.779 because i know how important it is for closure 00:29:54.779 --> 00:30:01.640 when you've lost someone yeah absolutely and 00:30:01.640 --> 00:30:05.440 i don't i don't know where like I don't know 00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:10.019 why forensic science, forensic scientists are 00:30:10.019 --> 00:30:12.319 supposed to be these like robots, you know, I, 00:30:12.380 --> 00:30:17.960 I guess I appreciate that we need to be good 00:30:17.960 --> 00:30:20.339 scientists, right. And, and follow the scientific 00:30:20.339 --> 00:30:24.140 method and, and, and do things. But I, we can't 00:30:24.140 --> 00:30:26.859 forget who we are when we do this, because why 00:30:26.859 --> 00:30:31.759 would we do it then? You know? No, I totally 00:30:31.759 --> 00:30:36.460 agree. I mean, that was. like at work all the 00:30:36.460 --> 00:30:40.140 time, like anytime someone's having a bad day 00:30:40.140 --> 00:30:43.700 or anytime like a case is getting frustrating 00:30:43.700 --> 00:30:45.640 or like even this morning where I'm like, it's 00:30:45.640 --> 00:30:47.119 my day off and I'm still working a little bit 00:30:47.119 --> 00:30:49.960 because I think we all do. It's like trying to 00:30:49.960 --> 00:30:52.619 be like, okay, yes, I'm frustrated. Yes, I have 00:30:52.619 --> 00:30:56.480 all of these emotions, but also why am I doing 00:30:56.480 --> 00:30:59.039 this? And it's like, if that why goes away or 00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:01.220 the why is not enough, then that's when you know 00:31:01.220 --> 00:31:03.309 you do need to leave the field or. whatever. 00:31:03.410 --> 00:31:05.069 And it's not because you couldn't handle it or 00:31:05.069 --> 00:31:08.450 whatever, but it just it's best for you. But 00:31:08.450 --> 00:31:13.230 it's like that why really matters. And I think 00:31:13.230 --> 00:31:15.269 that's why like this at the beginning of the 00:31:15.269 --> 00:31:17.029 podcast, you know, we asked like, why did you 00:31:17.029 --> 00:31:19.170 get into the field? Because at the end of the 00:31:19.170 --> 00:31:22.289 day, that's why we do anything. Like the reason 00:31:22.289 --> 00:31:25.789 we found an interest in bones or found an interest 00:31:25.789 --> 00:31:30.470 in forensics as a whole really guides us and 00:31:30.470 --> 00:31:34.329 helps ground us. when everything else is kind 00:31:34.329 --> 00:31:42.750 of going crazy. I wonder if that robotic archetype 00:31:42.750 --> 00:31:52.569 is sort of a Hollywood creation. And not necessarily 00:31:52.569 --> 00:31:56.670 just forensics, but just scientists in general. 00:31:58.109 --> 00:32:03.519 You think of of movies and tv shows particularly 00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:08.259 in the early 2000s and before and scientists 00:32:08.259 --> 00:32:11.740 with rare exceptions were always the nerdy type 00:32:11.740 --> 00:32:20.240 robotic nerdy type um a lot of sheldons from 00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:26.039 uh big bang theory we're all supposed to be sheldons 00:32:26.039 --> 00:32:32.220 and i wonder if that has crept into the field 00:32:32.220 --> 00:32:41.339 and the belief. Yeah, that's funny. I also think 00:32:41.339 --> 00:32:46.440 that more often than not, kind of going back 00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:49.500 to what I was saying before, that like having 00:32:49.500 --> 00:32:52.839 people that have lots of different experiences 00:32:52.839 --> 00:32:56.380 helps combat that a little bit because then every 00:32:56.380 --> 00:33:00.410 time you show up, to a scene or to a courthouse 00:33:00.410 --> 00:33:04.609 or even to a family's uh like to talk to them 00:33:04.609 --> 00:33:08.509 when you're not that stereotype necessarily or 00:33:08.509 --> 00:33:11.670 even if you are but like being able to show yourself 00:33:11.670 --> 00:33:17.569 in that situation helps the public view of what 00:33:17.569 --> 00:33:22.109 our science is and so i know a couple episodes 00:33:22.109 --> 00:33:24.230 ago we talked a lot about like science communication 00:33:24.230 --> 00:33:28.519 and I think a lot of that kind of plays into, 00:33:28.660 --> 00:33:32.400 okay, well, if we can be good advocates for each 00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:34.539 other within the field, we can also be good advocates 00:33:34.539 --> 00:33:36.779 for, you know, the people that we're trying to 00:33:36.779 --> 00:33:40.940 identify and for their families. And to be able 00:33:40.940 --> 00:33:43.680 to just like be yourself in all of those situations 00:33:43.680 --> 00:33:47.299 helps really alleviate some of that, like, oh, 00:33:47.319 --> 00:33:49.059 I need to be perfect, or I have to have the right 00:33:49.059 --> 00:33:52.940 answer, or I have to, you know, X, Y, Z, and. 00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:56.720 when you can be yourself, then you can admit 00:33:56.720 --> 00:33:59.200 to yourself when you're having those types of 00:33:59.200 --> 00:34:06.880 traumas. Yeah, and I think coming in to things, 00:34:07.059 --> 00:34:11.980 like Ashley had asked if pre -existing conditions 00:34:11.980 --> 00:34:17.719 exacerbate the problem, I think it also is a 00:34:17.719 --> 00:34:20.869 superpower in a certain way. You've been coping 00:34:20.869 --> 00:34:22.690 with things that other people haven't had to 00:34:22.690 --> 00:34:26.550 your entire life. So you've got extra building 00:34:26.550 --> 00:34:29.590 blocks for how to survive in challenging environments. 00:34:29.630 --> 00:34:32.670 And I think that's like a part of you that actually, 00:34:32.869 --> 00:34:35.670 if you feel the same, because obviously I'm not 00:34:35.670 --> 00:34:39.050 inside your head, but I think that those are 00:34:39.050 --> 00:34:41.590 things that could potentially make you even better 00:34:41.590 --> 00:34:49.789 at surviving a field like that. I would say, 00:34:49.909 --> 00:34:53.130 Kat, do you have any, I guess, like kind of along 00:34:53.130 --> 00:34:56.469 those same lines, like coping mechanisms or things 00:34:56.469 --> 00:34:59.969 that you think have worked for you in the past 00:34:59.969 --> 00:35:04.329 for not only being able to recognize what you're 00:35:04.329 --> 00:35:07.489 feeling, but how to like combat those issues? 00:35:08.230 --> 00:35:12.710 Yeah, absolutely. When I first started, like 00:35:12.710 --> 00:35:14.550 I've already talked about connection. So reaching 00:35:14.550 --> 00:35:19.340 out and like being around people that. are very 00:35:19.340 --> 00:35:23.079 familiar to you and your experience. Right. So 00:35:23.079 --> 00:35:25.719 like I would try to rely on my husband about 00:35:25.719 --> 00:35:28.539 work related stuff, but he's not set up for that. 00:35:28.639 --> 00:35:30.940 You know, like he's a teacher. Bless his little 00:35:30.940 --> 00:35:34.440 heart. So like finding people like a peer support 00:35:34.440 --> 00:35:37.639 team of other forensic anthropologists or like 00:35:37.639 --> 00:35:41.119 a group of people that do the same kind of job 00:35:41.119 --> 00:35:44.440 is really important to rely on. So that connection 00:35:44.440 --> 00:35:49.219 was was a big part of. my building of, you know, 00:35:49.239 --> 00:35:52.559 rebuilding my resiliency. I also did a lot of 00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:56.039 journaling in the beginning. So just like getting 00:35:56.039 --> 00:35:58.000 all that stuff out of my head, I call it like 00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:01.280 mindful decontamination, like purging the shit 00:36:01.280 --> 00:36:04.179 and the funk out of your brain. Because again, 00:36:04.280 --> 00:36:06.559 I thought like I was keeping it all up inside 00:36:06.559 --> 00:36:09.760 my head because like, oh, for God's sakes, you 00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:12.300 know, how dare I have bad feelings or like feeling 00:36:12.300 --> 00:36:14.860 sad or like that's, you know, I'm so bad and 00:36:14.860 --> 00:36:17.119 then I'm blaming and shaming and it's just getting 00:36:17.119 --> 00:36:20.699 worse and worse. So writing things down, not 00:36:20.699 --> 00:36:23.539 just the bad stuff, right? So like setting a, 00:36:23.539 --> 00:36:26.380 you know, a timer for every day or sometimes 00:36:26.380 --> 00:36:28.719 a couple of times a day and actually just writing. 00:36:28.739 --> 00:36:32.179 And then you start to rely on that time. So you're 00:36:32.179 --> 00:36:35.340 not necessarily like. twirling up in worry and 00:36:35.340 --> 00:36:38.159 anxiety you're like okay wait I have this time 00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:41.800 like a little bit later today so that was really 00:36:41.800 --> 00:36:45.280 helpful for me also starting to rely on connecting 00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:49.659 with people writing things down when I was really 00:36:49.659 --> 00:36:53.519 having a hard time I got really serious about 00:36:53.519 --> 00:36:57.199 like my nutrition, drinking a ton of water, you 00:36:57.199 --> 00:37:00.079 know, like I stopped drinking alcohol. I really 00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:03.400 focused on my sleep. So making sure that I was 00:37:03.400 --> 00:37:07.409 getting good sleep. Which is harder to do when 00:37:07.409 --> 00:37:10.949 you're working like an on -call job, but I certainly 00:37:10.949 --> 00:37:14.250 like there are ways kind of around it. And then 00:37:14.250 --> 00:37:16.710 also like setting goals for myself. So something 00:37:16.710 --> 00:37:18.750 I could look forward to that had nothing to do 00:37:18.750 --> 00:37:21.429 with dead people, you know, and that could be 00:37:21.429 --> 00:37:23.449 anything for anybody, right? Like if you like 00:37:23.449 --> 00:37:26.510 to knit or make sourdough starters and bread 00:37:26.510 --> 00:37:29.110 or like, you know, jujitsu, like it doesn't have 00:37:29.110 --> 00:37:31.789 to necessarily be like run a marathon because. 00:37:32.510 --> 00:37:34.449 I don't run unless somebody's chasing me. But 00:37:34.449 --> 00:37:36.489 like for some people, that's what they dig, right? 00:37:37.269 --> 00:37:40.070 I did a lot of yoga in the beginning, which was 00:37:40.070 --> 00:37:42.730 cool because like it was something that I was 00:37:42.730 --> 00:37:44.710 terrible at and then I got really good at it. 00:37:44.769 --> 00:37:47.329 So it was like a goal I could see myself progressing 00:37:47.329 --> 00:37:50.389 towards. It didn't have anything to do with dead 00:37:50.389 --> 00:37:53.329 people. So those are some really important things 00:37:53.329 --> 00:37:56.250 that I recommend, really bringing it back to 00:37:56.250 --> 00:38:00.510 basics like calm, sleeping, eating, writing, 00:38:00.849 --> 00:38:05.269 purging. and setting goals i was actually ordered 00:38:05.269 --> 00:38:08.050 to pick up hobbies that were not related to dead 00:38:08.050 --> 00:38:11.809 people that's awesome i picked up photography 00:38:11.809 --> 00:38:16.909 and archery and astronomy and that's yeah you 00:38:16.909 --> 00:38:20.969 yeah that's that's one thing i tell all all of 00:38:20.969 --> 00:38:22.869 my students all the grad students that come in 00:38:22.869 --> 00:38:26.010 that's one thing i tell them is you have to have 00:38:26.010 --> 00:38:31.420 a hobby that is not related to this field because 00:38:31.420 --> 00:38:33.659 you will burn out faster than you can imagine. 00:38:34.159 --> 00:38:36.139 Yeah, that was definitely another thing. When 00:38:36.139 --> 00:38:39.219 I was diagnosed with PTSD, my doctor was like, 00:38:39.320 --> 00:38:41.239 well, what else do you do? And I'm like, what 00:38:41.239 --> 00:38:43.239 do you mean? What else do I do? Like, this is 00:38:43.239 --> 00:38:49.420 it. And then I was like, oh, this is not healthy. 00:38:50.260 --> 00:38:54.139 But I think a lot of times, you know, those like 00:38:54.139 --> 00:38:55.820 back to basics that you were talking about, people 00:38:55.820 --> 00:38:58.989 think are so simple that they're like. well, 00:38:59.010 --> 00:39:00.670 of course I need a work -life balance. Of course 00:39:00.670 --> 00:39:03.230 I need friends. Of course. But then like in your 00:39:03.230 --> 00:39:05.070 actual day -to -day practice, you're like, do 00:39:05.070 --> 00:39:07.889 I actually have those things? I say I do. Cause 00:39:07.889 --> 00:39:09.929 you're like, yeah, it's fine. Like everything's 00:39:09.929 --> 00:39:11.510 cool. And then you're like, actually I've worked 00:39:11.510 --> 00:39:15.889 70 hours this week and I've slept maybe 20 and 00:39:15.889 --> 00:39:18.710 I haven't eaten food in two days. What is going 00:39:18.710 --> 00:39:23.780 on? But like, honestly, I don't, I. I tell people, 00:39:23.800 --> 00:39:25.940 I think work -life balance for us is bullshit. 00:39:26.179 --> 00:39:29.440 I mean, it just, it's not going to happen. So 00:39:29.440 --> 00:39:31.599 the more you try to strive for that balance, 00:39:31.719 --> 00:39:33.840 the more you're going to stress yourself out. 00:39:33.940 --> 00:39:36.980 So recognizing that like that shit is not going 00:39:36.980 --> 00:39:39.420 to, that ship has sailed, that's not going to 00:39:39.420 --> 00:39:42.420 happen. And then finding somewhere else. So balance 00:39:42.420 --> 00:39:45.320 for us isn't 50 -50. It's just not going to happen. 00:39:45.639 --> 00:39:49.019 And so like really relying on that time that 00:39:49.019 --> 00:39:51.360 you do have free, you know, taking your day off, 00:39:51.420 --> 00:39:53.489 right? So you had to. work today right so what 00:39:53.489 --> 00:39:56.530 else special are you gonna do for yourself because 00:39:56.530 --> 00:39:59.670 you did have to like you know take a couple hours 00:39:59.670 --> 00:40:02.070 to actually work or like maybe you can take another 00:40:02.070 --> 00:40:06.550 day off um and finding finding that time like 00:40:06.550 --> 00:40:08.510 you know because i used to work on call all the 00:40:08.510 --> 00:40:10.929 time i was like okay well i'm not gonna rely 00:40:10.929 --> 00:40:15.590 on this pto that i've are the um the time that 00:40:15.590 --> 00:40:18.030 i've gotten um my doorbell's ringing i don't 00:40:18.030 --> 00:40:21.469 know if you can hear that but um so then like 00:40:21.949 --> 00:40:24.590 not relying on that money that I've, that I've 00:40:24.590 --> 00:40:30.010 made extra and actually saving that for me for 00:40:30.010 --> 00:40:32.389 something special or like saving the time that 00:40:32.389 --> 00:40:35.289 I've gathered from working so much and like actually 00:40:35.289 --> 00:40:37.869 taking that off, not just letting it sit in my, 00:40:37.889 --> 00:40:40.889 in my queue, you know, never take that day off, 00:40:40.969 --> 00:40:44.690 like actually take the day off and be off. Would 00:40:44.690 --> 00:40:47.230 you say that like a key is kind of creating boundaries 00:40:47.230 --> 00:40:50.070 wherever you can squeeze them? Because boundaries 00:40:50.070 --> 00:40:56.050 don't come. 100 % saying no. That was my 2025 00:40:56.050 --> 00:41:00.929 New Year's resolution. And that's so hard for 00:41:00.929 --> 00:41:02.550 I think people in our field because you're so 00:41:02.550 --> 00:41:05.969 used to trying to hustle just to get a foot in 00:41:05.969 --> 00:41:10.170 the door. That saying no feels so painful. Yeah, 00:41:10.210 --> 00:41:15.349 I think that's one thing that's even harder for 00:41:17.699 --> 00:41:23.500 those getting started particularly those in masters 00:41:23.500 --> 00:41:30.059 and really in phd work because you've got to 00:41:30.059 --> 00:41:32.300 get you got to get your papers out as fast as 00:41:32.300 --> 00:41:38.139 you possibly can you've got to get stuff um you 00:41:38.139 --> 00:41:40.460 know got to get to conferences and present at 00:41:40.460 --> 00:41:42.920 conferences all you can got to get the teaching 00:41:42.920 --> 00:41:46.230 you got to get do the case it just this whole 00:41:46.230 --> 00:41:49.429 massive list of everything you've got to do because 00:41:49.429 --> 00:41:53.329 you're competing if it just even though you're 00:41:53.329 --> 00:41:56.710 not it feels like your every day is a competition 00:41:56.710 --> 00:42:02.429 if not with the person two universities over 00:42:02.429 --> 00:42:07.550 with the person and the next lab bench yeah and 00:42:07.550 --> 00:42:11.110 that becomes a real issue but i think a lot of 00:42:11.110 --> 00:42:14.010 that like I feel most fields probably have that 00:42:14.010 --> 00:42:16.929 competition. I don't want to say that's just 00:42:16.929 --> 00:42:20.469 an anthropology thing, but I think being willing 00:42:20.469 --> 00:42:24.150 to like talk with your cohort and willing, because 00:42:24.150 --> 00:42:26.170 like competing is not necessarily a bad thing. 00:42:26.190 --> 00:42:28.670 You know, it might make you work harder. It might 00:42:28.670 --> 00:42:31.090 make you, you know, learn something that you 00:42:31.090 --> 00:42:35.239 would have maybe not otherwise have. When you 00:42:35.239 --> 00:42:37.860 notice yourself like only worrying about the 00:42:37.860 --> 00:42:40.179 competing or only worrying about like, okay, 00:42:40.239 --> 00:42:42.019 well, this person did this. So I have to do X, 00:42:42.079 --> 00:42:47.019 Y, Z. And like that making those boundaries not 00:42:47.019 --> 00:42:50.739 where they need to be. Where I really liked what 00:42:50.739 --> 00:42:53.320 Kat had said about like, your balance isn't necessarily 00:42:53.320 --> 00:42:55.760 50 -50. You have to find the balance for you. 00:42:55.860 --> 00:42:58.860 And so it's like, well, if my balance, if I noticed 00:42:58.860 --> 00:43:02.300 that like my mental health is doing okay. having 00:43:02.300 --> 00:43:06.019 you know 70 % work and 30 % personal life then 00:43:06.019 --> 00:43:08.960 that's my balance and that's okay other people's 00:43:08.960 --> 00:43:12.500 balance might be 80 and 20 and so they probably 00:43:12.500 --> 00:43:15.440 will get more done than me but that doesn't mean 00:43:15.440 --> 00:43:17.960 I need to change my balance to be theirs because 00:43:17.960 --> 00:43:19.780 that's when you're not going to be able to like 00:43:19.780 --> 00:43:22.539 be yourself and you know you're not going to 00:43:22.539 --> 00:43:27.719 do good work or do good work like anything like 00:43:27.719 --> 00:43:31.050 work and life you're not going to be the best 00:43:31.050 --> 00:43:35.230 you need to be. I know I had, I'm going to age 00:43:35.230 --> 00:43:38.230 myself a little bit too. So on Facebook that 00:43:38.230 --> 00:43:42.269 someone had wrote, essentially it was like, you 00:43:42.269 --> 00:43:45.030 know, everyone has, you know, their plate of 00:43:45.030 --> 00:43:47.369 stuff they can handle. And some people's plates 00:43:47.369 --> 00:43:49.590 are made of steel and some people's plates are 00:43:49.590 --> 00:43:52.170 made of paper, but that doesn't mean you should 00:43:52.170 --> 00:43:55.389 put something that a steel plate can handle on 00:43:55.389 --> 00:43:58.469 your paper plate. And that really like made me 00:43:58.469 --> 00:44:01.510 like. stop and be like you know yeah and just 00:44:01.510 --> 00:44:04.110 because i'm a paper plate doesn't mean that it's 00:44:04.110 --> 00:44:06.730 worse because there's certain things that paper 00:44:06.730 --> 00:44:09.269 plates can do that steel cannot do and so like 00:44:09.269 --> 00:44:13.269 having to find the good in those differences 00:44:13.269 --> 00:44:20.849 well um i think this has been a fantastic conversation 00:44:20.849 --> 00:44:24.590 is one i that our field in not only forensic 00:44:24.590 --> 00:44:26.570 anthropology, but all of forensic science and 00:44:26.570 --> 00:44:28.849 anybody within the medical legal death investigation 00:44:28.849 --> 00:44:34.769 sphere and is going to be tackling for the next 00:44:34.769 --> 00:44:38.889 few while, next little while on how to properly 00:44:38.889 --> 00:44:44.110 address this and right the ship. But with that, 00:44:44.190 --> 00:44:49.070 I do want to thank Cap for coming on our podcast 00:44:49.070 --> 00:44:52.280 today. I think it was a fantastic conversation. 00:44:52.679 --> 00:44:56.900 I want to thank you so much. If any of our guests 00:44:56.900 --> 00:45:00.840 have any questions for you, can they send you 00:45:00.840 --> 00:45:03.619 an email or anything like that through us to 00:45:03.619 --> 00:45:07.880 you? Is that okay? I'll send you guys the landing 00:45:07.880 --> 00:45:10.599 page for the American Academy of Forensic Sciences 00:45:10.599 --> 00:45:13.280 has a vicarious trauma committee. So we're going 00:45:13.280 --> 00:45:16.260 to be putting a lot of stuff on our landing page 00:45:16.260 --> 00:45:19.920 there. We're hoping to have a workshop out like 00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:25.579 mid -year. So maybe August -ish. some sort of 00:45:25.579 --> 00:45:29.960 trauma workshop um the theme of next year's conference 00:45:29.960 --> 00:45:32.800 is actually back to basics so one of the huge 00:45:32.800 --> 00:45:36.219 kind of sub topics of that is talking about vicarious 00:45:36.219 --> 00:45:38.119 trauma so there's going to be a ton of really 00:45:38.119 --> 00:45:42.139 great stuff um in new orleans in february awesome 00:45:42.139 --> 00:45:46.719 i look forward to that yeah i really do thank 00:45:46.719 --> 00:45:51.260 you so much and i can't wait to see everyone 00:45:51.260 --> 00:45:55.519 again and just I don't know. I feel invigorated 00:45:55.519 --> 00:45:59.139 by this conversation. So thank you. Oh, thank 00:45:59.139 --> 00:46:02.980 you guys. It's great to see y 'all. Great to 00:46:02.980 --> 00:46:05.420 see you too. Thank you all so very much. Thanks 00:46:05.420 --> 00:46:08.099 everybody for listening. Don't forget to like 00:46:08.099 --> 00:46:11.800 and subscribe and we'll see you next month. On 00:46:11.800 --> 00:46:12.619 the bone club.