1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,000 I feel your eyes burning 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:10,000 Down to my bones 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:15,000 But I see the truth now 4 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:20,000 I've never been more alone 5 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:25,000 I run through the trees as fast as I can 6 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:30,000 I fall to my knees and I find a place to land 7 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:35,000 Whisper in the moonlight, stop and I freeze 8 00:00:35,000 --> 00:01:03,000 See into the shadows, taking over me 9 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:10,000 I'm walking on a very quiet road 10 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:15,000 I see the truth now 11 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,000 I'm running through 12 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:24,000 the trees as fast as I can 13 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:28,000 I fall to my knees and I find a place to land 14 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:32,000 Whisper in the moonlight, stop and I freeze 15 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:39,040 root of my sort of love for the arts, so I kept it going as best I could in the form of creative 16 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:46,080 writing, journalism, and some more filmmaking in between. And then I went on to get a master's and 17 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:52,240 PhD in biological anthropology, and currently I am a forensic anthropologist working for 18 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:58,000 SNA International in support of the Defense POW MIA Accounting Agency in Nebraska. 19 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:06,880 Sounds very interesting. So let me ask you, since we are talking about scientific communication, 20 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:10,000 what is scientific communication? What is it to you? 21 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:18,480 That I think is probably the biggest question because it encompasses a lot of things, and 22 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:26,320 it's really at the heart of it relaying scientific information, and the form you want to relay that 23 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:33,600 information in is really where you get into the heart of the question. To me, it combines two 24 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:40,400 areas. One is scientific literacy, your understanding of science, your ability to 25 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:47,760 communicate it, to digest it, receive it, and disseminate it, and also media literacy, 26 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:54,800 which is your ability to take in and understand the nuances of communication styles, 27 00:02:54,800 --> 00:03:02,160 whether it's writing, listening to podcasts, watching documentaries, your ability to receive 28 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:08,560 that information, understand the format that it's coming in, and how you can parse through 29 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:15,280 that information to really get to what is solid information, what you think is maybe kind of wacky 30 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:24,800 stuff that you should maybe be ignoring, and get to the heart of the matter in understanding. 31 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:26,800 Yeah. Stephanie, what do you think? 32 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:32,160 Yeah. So I'll just preface this for this entire podcast. I'm a little sick, so my voice sounds a 33 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:38,000 little funny, so please bear with me, everyone. But yeah, so Laura and I kind of worked together 34 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:44,240 as, if y'all remember, I also work for SNA International, and she had given us a presentation 35 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:49,760 at work about scientific communication. And so I just found it so fascinating, because I know for 36 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:54,400 myself that it's something that I actively try to work on, and always try to better myself. And 37 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:59,920 listening to her presentation just made it so clear that I had so much to learn, and I thought 38 00:03:59,920 --> 00:04:06,400 that maybe everyone else had those questions kind of burning in their minds as well, which is why 39 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:13,840 we reached out and wanted her to be our first guest as our podcast to try to get to the heart 40 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:19,840 to try to broaden some perspective a little bit, so it's not always just us rambling. It's 41 00:04:19,840 --> 00:04:26,960 we get a couple other voices as well. And so I guess my idea behind science communication, 42 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:33,200 for sure, is all of what Laura had said as well. But also, when I try to think about my definition 43 00:04:33,840 --> 00:04:40,800 for science communication, I tend to try to always think about what did I miss out 44 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:47,600 when science was communicated to me, and try to always keep that in mind as well. Because it is, 45 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:52,400 yes, like she was saying, like the literacy and understanding, not only the science, but I find 46 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:57,920 a lot of times, sometimes when people understand the science so well, they have a hard time 47 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:03,520 communicating it, because like, they just get it to the nth degree. And you're sitting there as the 48 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:12,800 layperson being like, what just happened? I'm so lost. And so for me, that was an aspect of science 49 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:20,160 communication that I always try to keep in mind of like, what didn't I know when I was thinking 50 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:26,560 about this topic, or when this topic was taught to me. And I guess, which kind of leads into my 51 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:32,880 first question for Laura is like, most science communication really does have to do with like, 52 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:38,160 speaking to your audience in a way that they understand. In what ways do you think, 53 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:43,280 the field as a whole kind of does this well? And what ways do you think that, 54 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:50,640 we might have a long way to improve upon? That's a great question. I think you really 55 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:55,760 hit the nail on the head in that the first rule of scientific communication is knowing your audience. 56 00:05:55,760 --> 00:06:01,920 And knowing your audience does not just mean knowing who you're speaking to, but how to speak 57 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:07,920 with them. You want to meet them at their level, but also push them to grow a little bit. You don't 58 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:14,240 want to talk down to people ever. You want to show them the avenues of where you could be taking that 59 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:21,680 conversation past where they started. And in knowing your audience, you have to know language 60 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:28,800 to use to communicate with that audience. You don't want to get too in the weeds with 61 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:35,760 a specific vocabulary, especially in science, that's a problem. And that's something I think we don't 62 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:45,200 do super well. I think we have sort of two speeds. One is lay speak, where we use your elbow and 63 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:51,520 your hips instead of talking about the specific bones involved. Or we have science speak, where 64 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:56,880 we talk about the specific bones involved. And we have nothing in between. And so we're either 65 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:02,560 relying on people knowing nothing or knowing everything. So one of our problems in the field 66 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:08,720 is reaching that audience that's in between or moving one audience from one end of the spectrum 67 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:15,440 to another. Because I do think communication runs both ways, not just from ignorance to knowledge, 68 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:21,680 but also knowledge to other types of knowledge. Everyone is moving in some direction constantly. 69 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:26,480 So one of the things we could do better is hitting those audiences in between 70 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:33,920 and learning to communicate in different ways. Science is really either verbally taught 71 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:42,640 in a classroom, or its major mode of communication is through writing in scientific journals, 72 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:49,440 articles. And those hit certain audiences, and they don't hit any of the other ones in between. 73 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:56,480 It's sort of gatekeeping science in a lot of journals that people don't have access to, 74 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:04,400 or have inaccessible language. And then gatekeeping it also in the form of having to be a part of 75 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:11,200 higher education to be a part of the conversation. So there's a lot of ways to communicate in between. 76 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:16,640 One, you are doing perfectly well today in the form of a podcast. That's something that hits a 77 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:23,040 lot of audiences. People can join in a sort of conversational mode, which is really helpful 78 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:29,920 for a lot of people to get interested in topics and feel like they can be accessing the information 79 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:34,080 and know where to go with it from there, not just being talked at, but talked with. 80 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:41,600 Then there's a lot of different new media. YouTube streaming, there's people who are talking to 81 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:48,080 audiences more frequently and at a more accessible level. Filmmaking, other forms of audio, 82 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:54,480 writing in a more creative format is something I think we could really be diving into that we don't. 83 00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:02,400 So we have a sort of rigid approach to scientific communication now, and those are the areas 84 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:09,200 where I think we have the most room to grow. But there are some things we are doing well. 85 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:17,120 One is I think, especially within forensics, we have a lot of interest. And we've kept it 86 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:26,080 interesting. We've kept it hot. We've kept people wanting more. So that eagerness and driving up the 87 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:32,480 excitement in your audience is something that we are really good at. Maintaining it is something 88 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:36,880 we can work on a little bit more. But those are what I see as the major highlights and 89 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:38,880 disadvantages for our field. 90 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:45,120 I really appreciate that. I mean, I couldn't agree more. I don't know if Ashley or Jenna, 91 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:53,360 y'all have any more things that y'all have seen the field do well or not well. 92 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:59,360 Well, I mean, for me, the not well is in the language. And there's something that you brought 93 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:08,320 up, Stephanie, that I know I'm very guilty of. And that is my supervisor tends to beat me over 94 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:17,440 the head quite frequently when I write something. And she tells me, you know this. No one else does. 95 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:24,400 So you need to write it like no one else knows this. And that's something that I'm always guilty 96 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:30,960 of is I'll sort of start my paper at the middle and forget no one's been working 10 years on this 97 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:39,920 project other than me. So how am I supposed to make those minor steps in the beginning that I 98 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:45,600 leave out? How do I include those? So how do I make those steps? 99 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:54,640 How do I include those? So how do you overcome that in writing and in communication that sort of 100 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:56,640 starting the story from the middle? 101 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:05,120 That is a problem. I think there's two aspects to that that are important to consider. And I'm 102 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:11,680 wondering if you guys have experienced these things. First is that communication is not a one 103 00:11:11,680 --> 00:11:17,520 call approach. The communicator needs to be conscious of who they are and who they're perceived 104 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:25,440 as. When you're a junior scientist, when you're younger in the field, you have to also take the 105 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:30,400 opportunity to prove yourself to a certain degree for the audience to take you seriously. 106 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:40,160 That's also true of certain minority representation in the field. A lot of people, whether it be female, 107 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:49,760 gender diverse, POC, there's a lot of different people who will have to unfortunately represent 108 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:57,680 themselves in a way that is taken seriously with authority. Because some of us aren't given 109 00:11:57,680 --> 00:12:06,800 authority just for existing. And so in doing that, you have to remember that you are the expert on 110 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:13,440 what you're discussing. And how to communicate that well in a manner that's received well is 111 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:20,960 a big issue. Then you said starting the story in the middle. That's something that I have also 112 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:26,160 struggled with a lot. But my creative writing background, I think, was the most helpful way 113 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:33,520 for me to think that through in creating a narrative arc. I want to lead my audience 114 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:39,200 through the arc of a story and tell a story when I'm communicating things to them. Even if it's a 115 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:47,280 dry scientific matter, there's still a beginning, a middle, and an end. And I know where I want the 116 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:54,000 end to be. So even when I'm starting in the middle, I have a vision of where I want to get them to. 117 00:12:54,880 --> 00:13:02,640 And that's the same place that I am. And so I have to remember, how did I get there? 118 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:10,400 How can I help lead my audience there? And I do write it out of order. I write where I want to be 119 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:19,040 at the end. I dive into the meat of the middle, all of the nitty gritty in between, parsing through 120 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:25,680 what's important for them to know, what's something that I can sort of gloss over and lead them in a 121 00:13:25,680 --> 00:13:32,240 way. And then remembering where did I start? And how can I introduce something to somebody who's 122 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:37,440 starting in that place too? I can't forget where I started from. Otherwise, I'm not going to very 123 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:43,600 effectively bring somebody to where I ended up. Is that something that resonates? Is that something 124 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:50,320 that feels like, is how you approach communicating things too? Or is this a weird quirk that I'm 125 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:59,840 bringing in? No, I love that. I probably should start doing that. I didn't do, I guess I have a 126 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:05,440 very linear thought process, which I, so I'm always like, okay, where did I start? Where am I going? 127 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:10,720 And I like try to start from the beginning and just write the whole paper or the whole presentation 128 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:18,080 or whatever. But that it does make sense to kind of work backwards of like, knowing your end goal 129 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:25,920 helps you not have so much jumbleness, I guess, at the beginning. So that's, I mean, that makes me 130 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:32,240 think a lot about like, how I've definitely given presentations where I tend, like, I guess, a 131 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:37,840 critique of sometimes when I give presentations is I just like give a lot of information. 132 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:43,520 And it might be because I do start from the beginning to the end when like maybe the beginning 133 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:51,360 stuff doesn't, not all of it mattered, I guess, for that end point. So that's a really good, 134 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:58,160 you're gonna have to rethink how I do things. So do I actually. I mean, I'm like Stephanie, 135 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:04,880 I'm also very linear in the way I write. The way I tend to write is I'll go days, months, weeks, 136 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:10,160 no writing, no writing, no writing, and then I'll sit down and I'll write an entire journal article 137 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:16,160 in one sitting. And it's just, I start from the beginning and just once the words start coming 138 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:21,920 out, they start coming out and just go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go. 139 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:32,880 My brain goes so very differently. I have ADHD, so I tend to go in one direction and then beer off 140 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:38,480 sharply and then beer into another direction. I'm all over the place all the time. The one way that 141 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:47,840 I have tried to adapt is I'm really lucky to have a parent who I still live with who has a philosophy 142 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:54,880 degree. And she is really, really good at trying to get me back on track. I can get really excited 143 00:15:54,880 --> 00:16:00,560 or obsessed with other topics as well and I'll like kind of go too far into it. And so she is 144 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:05,760 good at bringing me back and being like, okay, no, but what did you mean? And so I think it's, 145 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:09,760 that's a perk that I have that not everybody has access to, but I think that might help improve 146 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:15,360 the sciences if we were, I mean, it's always good to be multidisciplinary, but also in just sharing 147 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:22,880 the way that we write. And so I have my philosophy major mother read through my paper and tell me if 148 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,360 I've explained it to the point that she can at least follow what's going on, 149 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:34,880 even if it gets a little too sciencey. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if that, if that, 150 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:44,160 if we think that might be a way to help or. I think so. I think, I think looking at our related 151 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:52,080 fields, our, our neighbors, our academic neighbors, if you will, is a great way to do this because we 152 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:59,760 are communicating to those people as well, hopefully, ideally. So how they communicate 153 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:06,960 or how they're receiving our information, like a parent would or any other person that, I mean, 154 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:13,840 they could come from, from any background and can tell you that didn't make sense to me or yeah, 155 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:19,120 that sounded really great to me or whatever in between, and give you some guidance on, 156 00:17:19,120 --> 00:17:27,280 on how your communication is being received. I, I did my undergraduate thesis from a linguistics 157 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:34,240 perspective, looking at a journal article and the sections, you know, introduction, materials and 158 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:43,520 methods, results and conclusion discussion, and looking at the types of language were used in 159 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:50,640 these different sections and how it was received by our academic neighbors through the form of 160 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:57,600 people that were citing us outside of the field. And I looked at things like self-reference in the 161 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:06,640 form of pronouns like I and we in academic or scientific writing versus the sort of removed 162 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:13,200 third person approach and notice that there were trends in the introduction and the discussion 163 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:18,960 section where self-reference and a sort of first person approach was really appreciated, it seemed 164 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:24,720 by these, these other fields. And that's something that we're not taught in our field and it's not 165 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:31,680 something that is really promoted, I would say. Some people even might beat it out of you in your, 166 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:38,080 in your education. So you have to remember that your audience is more than your advisor, 167 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:43,120 your audience is more than the person who's giving you feedback on a specific presentation 168 00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:50,400 that you gave and seeking that feedback from a variety of audiences because diversity is 169 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:56,480 really the thing that's informing what we do. That diversity will give you a better understanding of 170 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:04,880 how to adapt your brain, however it may work, into a form that other brains can receive, 171 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:06,560 more than just a single person. 172 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:12,000 No, I'm totally glad you said the thing about like first person and stuff like that because 173 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:20,480 my graduate thesis was talking about, you know, cognitive bias and like how the person has an 174 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:26,240 impact on not only the science itself but how it's communicated and all of those types of things. 175 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:32,800 And that was one thing I had to have a discussion with my entire committee to be like, I want my 176 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:40,000 entire thesis to be in first person because how can I talk about, you know, us as science 177 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:46,560 scientists having an impact on the science while trying to remove myself subsequently from that 178 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:51,040 science like that didn't make sense and like I had a long discussion and luckily they were very 179 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:59,200 receptive to that idea but it was, I know, having written some articles prior to not in first person 180 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:03,920 trying to write in first person was really difficult where you're like, it shouldn't be 181 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:08,320 this hard but I'm the one that did this thing but it really is because you're so used to reading 182 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:14,720 so many articles that are not written in that way and so you feel like, oh I'm not as scientific, 183 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:19,840 I'm not as, like I'm not writing as smart or whatever when in reality you're like, no, 184 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:25,440 I did these things that matter. So like, yeah, I just, I'm glad you said that. 185 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:29,120 It's more well received when you use personal pronouns? 186 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:38,080 In related fields, it was, the most highly cited articles had some sort of personal approach to 187 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:43,920 the introduction and discussion sections. So those were the areas where people, audiences were 188 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:50,400 interested in hearing your perspective. Materials and methods and results, they wanted sort of a 189 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:56,320 hard science classic approach. They wanted you to deliver information impartially, I suppose, 190 00:20:56,320 --> 00:21:04,640 and sort of a traditional presentation but in the introduction they wanted to be told 191 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:11,280 some of your perspective to be led a little bit into your work and then in the discussion they 192 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:17,440 wanted to hear from what you specifically learned rather than just what you learned. 193 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:24,000 What you specifically learned rather than just regurgitating something as if it happened in front 194 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:30,160 of you and you just witnessed it but had no part in it. That's really fascinating. I feel like that 195 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:35,600 also would translate better in terms of forensics when you end up on the stand if you ever were a 196 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:42,400 witness that you do have to speak specifically to what you did or what you and your constituents did. 197 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:50,720 Yeah, that's really interesting. I feel like we're all just sitting there like, wow, 198 00:21:50,720 --> 00:22:00,880 so much to think about, right? I guess kind of along those same topics but another question that 199 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:07,840 I was kind of thinking about when prepping for today's podcast was just like, what do you 200 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:15,680 find works best for you to prep for presentations or communication styles? Do you memorize your whole 201 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:21,520 speech or do you just have guiding points? I think probably to a certain extent everyone's a 202 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:25,840 little bit different but since you seem to be very good at this science communication, 203 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,760 I feel like we could learn a lot from how you do things. 204 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:37,360 That's very flattering of you to say. I consider myself a work in progress for sure but that work 205 00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:44,160 in progress I guess is sort of my philosophy also. I consider it sort of a muscle that you need to 206 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:54,240 train and you need to constantly work at to build and that confidence or comfortableness in speaking 207 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,960 is something that you develop with time and practice. It's not something that, I mean maybe 208 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:05,120 there's some rare individuals that just are born with an innate ability to communicate but I think 209 00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:12,880 for the most part the rest of us all have to really work at it. How you work at it is definitely 210 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:20,400 individualized. I think my approach is to be comfortable with the material enough that I can 211 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:24,560 speak off the cuff about it because you never know the direction a presentation is going to go. You 212 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,080 never know what kind of question you're going to be asked. That's not something you can script 213 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:35,600 but I definitely rely earlier on heavily on a script. I think when you're starting that's okay. 214 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:43,040 You need to practice. You need to get comfortable with moving through material and if you have to 215 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:49,680 read that's totally fine. When witnessing a presentation given by somebody that's completely 216 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:57,440 right off of a script 100% I don't look down on that in any way. I think that person has 217 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:05,120 taken the time to craft that script with their knowledge to make that into something that they 218 00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:10,720 think is worth sharing and then delivering it rather than it being something that they're 219 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:15,680 not doing in real time. They've done it. They've done the work there and they're delivering it to 220 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:21,040 the best of their ability in that moment and so that's something I really appreciate and it's not 221 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:25,040 something I'll ever tell people that they shouldn't do. There's a lot of people who say oh you need to 222 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:32,880 memorize something. You need to go off script but I see no problem with using a script. I do like it 223 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:41,040 when it's a little more loosely organized. I think you should have points that you want to hit. You 224 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:45,120 should know the direction that you're going with. You should know your narrative arc, your beginning, 225 00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:52,080 middle, and end but the way you're getting into the meat of those sections can be something a 226 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:59,520 little more creative, a little more interactive, something that you feel out with your audience in 227 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:08,080 real time that I do really love. So preparation is something you can't avoid. There's always going 228 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:13,760 to be some element to that. The question is do you want to prepare bullet points and let the rest 229 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:20,960 sort of naturally flow in between or do you want to prepare your whole script and be ready to move 230 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:25,120 off of it at any second because again you never know what kind of question you're going to get 231 00:25:25,120 --> 00:25:33,760 but it's not something you can prep but you have to rely on your knowledge and know however you 232 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:39,120 think you can communicate that knowledge best and that can change from presentation to presentation. 233 00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:43,920 There's some topics that you might have a lot of numbers that you have to deliver 234 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:48,080 and those things should be written out. I don't think anybody should be sitting down and memorizing. 235 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:52,320 I think it's a waste of time. I think there's more important things that you can be focused on. 236 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:57,920 Then concerning yourself and worrying through memorizing a bunch of statistics. 237 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:06,320 I think you can always rely on things like that to be scripted but when it comes down to the heart 238 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:11,680 of your presentation that's something that comes just from you. That comes from your personal 239 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:18,720 experience. That comes from your interest, your enthusiasm and those are things that will come out 240 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:26,640 whether you script it or not. So those things will always be present but again practicing 241 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:32,960 until you feel comfortable and you feel ready to share those aspects of your presentation 242 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:41,200 is all you can do at any stage. I would say and feel free Ashley and Jenna I know I keep asking 243 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:49,840 a bunch of questions so feel free to interrupt me at any point. Do you find prepping for a presentation 244 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:59,120 do you tend to do that on your own or do you give a fake presentation to a group of people 245 00:26:59,120 --> 00:27:06,160 before you give the actual presentation? I know at work a while back from one of our mentorship 246 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:13,120 meeting things I think you had talked about giving like this was more for articles but I think it 247 00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:19,600 works for presentations as well of giving them the opportunity to critique it in front of you 248 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:26,240 and you kind of just like listen. Do you mind talking more about that that way our audience 249 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:33,520 knows what I'm talking about? Then what you find that does well for you. 250 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:39,920 Yeah so that I call workshopping that comes from my creative writing background where we would put 251 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:46,480 together pieces of writing and you would distribute it to a group that you're workshopping it with. 252 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:51,680 They have the chance to read over it make any edits or suggestions that they're interested in 253 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:57,680 and then they have a conversation about it that you listen to but you don't participate in. So you 254 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:03,520 get an understanding of how your work is being received and what is hitting home with people, 255 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:09,280 what's not landing, what do people want more of, what are people less interested in and I find that 256 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:17,040 extremely valuable because your instinct is to sort of stick up for yourself in moments to be like no 257 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:22,960 no that's not what I meant no you're misunderstanding that or you know you get a little bit more 258 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:30,320 sensitive about aspects of your work but it's really great to step back and just hear how it's 259 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:36,880 being received because your intention can be x y or z but if people are reading it as something 260 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:42,080 completely different then your intention meant nothing there because it's just not how it's 261 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:49,520 being received and you have to remember to step outside of yourself and you have to be able to 262 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:54,800 and you have to remember to step outside of yourself in order to get that kind of information. 263 00:28:55,520 --> 00:29:02,400 So workshopping is something that you can bring to any type of communication really it doesn't 264 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:08,960 have to just be writing although it's something that I think writing benefits very well from 265 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:15,360 because people can digest it in their own time first. A presentation can be done in a similar 266 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:22,480 style you can give a rough version of the presentation step back and let people tell you 267 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:27,040 those things you'll have to maybe guide them through it a little bit ask specifically what 268 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:31,920 worked what didn't what did you think of this what did you think of that but don't 269 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:40,240 don't lead them in that conversation receive the the natural information as much as you can 270 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:49,280 and take that for your next iteration. I don't often give full versions of a presentation 271 00:29:49,840 --> 00:30:01,760 I sort of workshop ideas or aspects that I want to hit on and that's more conversational 272 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:07,840 and I like that approach. I think if you're feeling uncomfortable if it's your first 273 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:13,920 presentation that you're giving that would be a great time to give a rough draft and get some 274 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:18,560 feedback on it but as you get a little more familiar with the concept and how you want to 275 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:25,200 approach it then you can say to somebody oh I have this idea or I'm thinking about approaching it 276 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:30,560 this way I'm thinking about representing in a figure like this what do you think about that 277 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:37,040 does that tell you the thing that I'm trying to get you to know there or could I do that 278 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:43,360 differently what are you thinking about it sometimes I just hit and workshop little aspects 279 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:54,400 in between and I think that style of feedback is essential to any form of communication 280 00:30:54,400 --> 00:31:00,400 presentations included is that something that you've ever done before? 281 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:06,080 For me no but it's something I'm definitely taking to my supervisor for her to include 282 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:14,800 when we have our lab meetings because what we do what I've done is the way I practice for a 283 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:23,280 presentation is I started off when I gave my first conference presentation I had a script 284 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:30,000 and I would go through it and I'd misaligned well fuck got to go back to that line 285 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:36,640 there's another one got to go back to that one and I wouldn't say it was a disaster but it felt like 286 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:44,240 one from my own internal perspective it felt like one so all the ones I've done since then 287 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:52,160 the way I tend to work it is I have my my powerpoint and I can see it on the computer there's my 288 00:31:52,160 --> 00:32:01,680 powerpoint and I'm just off the cuff this is what I want to say and our supervisor God bless her 289 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:07,040 she will not let you do a presentation without having it go through the entire lab first which 290 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:12,800 is pretty good I like the workshop presentation I like the presentation I like the presentation 291 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:17,360 pretty good I like the workshop idea a little bit better so I'm going to bring that bring that to 292 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:26,080 her but the problem I have is I never give the same presentation twice it changes every single 293 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:30,880 time I give it because I'll sit there and all of a sudden you know what that's the point I want to 294 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:37,760 hit instead of that one that's a good a good sign of a presentation I think I think if even if you're 295 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:43,920 giving the same thing scripted the same way it's never going to be received as the same presentation 296 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:50,720 by two different audiences so your ability to play with that audience that that interplay that sort 297 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:56,560 of collaborative aspect of it knowing what you want to hit on in that particular moment what's 298 00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:00,880 what the audience seems to be responding to that's a sign of an excellent presentation 299 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:07,920 I say I guess kind of talking about that audience aspect I know Ashley's kind of you know talk to us 300 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:13,680 about the audience of this podcast of you know a lot of y'all that are listening are either students 301 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:19,920 or you know people that are trying to kind of get into this field um not necessarily in the field 302 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:28,800 just yet though if you are please let us know uh-huh but like I think it's a good thing that we 303 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:39,360 have but like what types of uh I guess experiences do you think you wish you would have known 304 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:47,040 like I'm trying to figure out how I wanted to word that but like I know when I was an undergrad or 305 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:53,120 even in grad school like watching people give presentations at conferences or even my teacher 306 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:59,120 like lecturing at us where I was like oh my god they're so smart like they know what they're doing 307 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:04,080 but then like now kind of being in the field listening to my friends now giving presentations 308 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:08,960 of like kind of the anxiety before the presentation of like oh I don't want to mess up I don't want to 309 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:16,720 do these types of things um I guess just like to me that helped me kind of put myself in to that 310 00:34:16,720 --> 00:34:25,040 world of like oh other people are also kind of feeling this like feeling essentially um for 311 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:29,440 giving presentations which is really nice to know that like you're not alone in that feeling um 312 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:37,360 but I guess did y'all do y'all also feel that way and has there been things that like helped 313 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:43,440 alleviate that like kind of anxiety um I know I naturally have anxiety so like probably only my 314 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:51,600 medication will ever alleviate that for me but like what types of I don't know tips and tricks 315 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:57,120 do you have to kind of like calm yourself down before a presentation or those types of things 316 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:04,160 I guess and this is open-ended to anyone but I do want to say I do want to hear everyone's answers 317 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:11,840 here but um I can distinctly remember an early presentation that I gave where I was shaking like 318 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:18,960 physically shaking while I was speaking and I couldn't stop myself it's just like a a bodily 319 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:25,600 reaction that I had no control over I could do deep breathing I could do whatever and it just 320 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:31,840 would not have helped the situation so after that I just realized you know some things are out of my 321 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:38,800 control it's going to happen can I still deliver the information sure so I'm going to focus on that 322 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:46,000 if I'm shaking if I lose my train of thought excuse me if I have to cough in the middle of what I'm 323 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:51,360 saying things are going to happen and I'm just going to roll with it so the more comfortable you 324 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:58,080 feel rolling with things as they come up the less of a problem they become because if you're just 325 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:02,400 ready and you know that they're going to happen and you've accepted that they're going to happen 326 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:09,040 then it's easier to deal with if you're trying to fight it constantly it's a losing battle and I 327 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:16,880 think even the most seasoned presenters still get anxious that's something that they may hide well 328 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:21,680 but never goes away I know a lot of people personally who take beta blockers before a 329 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:30,320 presentation so medication is not out of the question um I get nervous I sweat a lot I have 330 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:35,840 to specifically think about what outfit I'm going to wear because I have to plan for something that 331 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:42,480 I will not sweat through in a manner that everyone can see and actually one of the ways that I do 332 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:49,440 approach the anxiety of a presentation is I think about my outfit I put a lot of effort into planning 333 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:55,040 what I'm going to wear how do I want to physically present myself what sort of energy do I want to 334 00:36:55,040 --> 00:37:02,080 give off and I put a lot of my time right before the presentation into that and that keeps me away 335 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:08,640 from you know getting into the weeds about every little detail that I could do differently and 336 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:15,600 getting super anxious about that I am an anxious person by nature so um I know that if I can distract 337 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:22,800 myself with something that's that's benefiting me in the end in the presentation then I'm going to 338 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:33,440 focus on those things what about you guys my very first poster that I ever gave um my friend literally 339 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:40,560 drug me to the q a session to give it because I was so anxious the answer was no not going just 340 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:46,160 not going it was the a b a's I believe they were in Knoxville but I'm not sure I think it was in 341 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:54,240 Knoxville and my friend literally had to physically drag me there and hold me while I did the q a 342 00:37:54,240 --> 00:38:03,680 otherwise it was not happening but what really clicked for me I kept getting anxious at conferences 343 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:13,360 and you know no matter where it was I was really really anxious and then it clicked a few years ago 344 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:21,760 at an a a f s conference and I was standing up there and I just I kept saying to myself in my head 345 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:29,600 you're on par with everyone in this room instead of thinking oh my god there's there's all these 346 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:34,480 giants in the field right in front of me no you're on par with every single person in this room 347 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:43,200 calm down gave the presentation and ever since then that's how I do it is I look at the audience 348 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:50,720 if it's my students hey they're looking at me to to know this information and you do know it you 349 00:38:50,720 --> 00:39:00,240 can give it if it's a conference you're on par with everybody in this room and that's that's how I 350 00:39:00,240 --> 00:39:05,760 deal with things and that's really alleviated the the anxiety that I have with conferences 351 00:39:06,240 --> 00:39:10,880 that's a great perspective yeah that imposter syndrome I mean we could probably have a whole 352 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:17,520 another two hour long podcast about imposter syndrome within the field for sure but I definitely 353 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:23,600 I get that of like having to remind yourself like you do know the stuff you're talking about it's 354 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:30,160 okay and I also find for myself and I obviously want to hear from Jenna too but I just like before 355 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:36,560 my brain forgets this is like reminding myself that like not knowing an answer is okay too 356 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:44,240 because I know like for undergrad and even grad school it was like a you know you're defending 357 00:39:44,240 --> 00:39:48,480 your thesis you have to know the answer to everything like you can't be caught not knowing 358 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:56,720 but like you cannot know like and like it's better to just say you know I don't know the answer to 359 00:39:56,720 --> 00:40:03,120 that let me find out for you and I'll get back to you rather than like making something up and being 360 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:08,800 wrong um and like I know that's helped me a little bit with my presentations of just being like 361 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:14,720 being able to say you know I don't know I really don't know the answer to that and being okay 362 00:40:14,720 --> 00:40:22,080 with not knowing and that I know what I faced that resonates with me for sure one of my earlier 363 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:29,680 presentations that I gave I went through it fine felt like really good about it and then I got a 364 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:38,480 question at the end and the guy asked me about some very uh like minutiae statistics thing that I 365 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:44,160 just didn't know how to answer and I sat there for a second I thought about it like okay what can I 366 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:50,240 say about this how am I gonna figure out a way to talk my way through this and then I just said 367 00:40:50,240 --> 00:40:58,720 forget it I leaned into the microphone and I said google it and end of question google's the winner 368 00:40:58,720 --> 00:40:59,520 of all 369 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:05,920 I love that I don't know that I can directly speak to it I haven't spoken at conferences 370 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:13,440 but even in my academic speaking like when I'm giving a guest lecture or I'm like leading a 371 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:19,840 lecture in a course of some format the the preparing my outfit is so real the stress sweat is 372 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:28,080 so abundant um so that that is part of it is like that's it reduces one extra piece of of stress for 373 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:31,760 me is if I don't have to worry that I'm sweating through my outfit then it's like that's one 374 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:36,560 because I will I'll just keep piling them on like my brain will just run a thousand miles a minute 375 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:43,200 and come up with absolutely every catastrophe that could ever possibly exist um so I try to 376 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:49,360 like that's one of the things is trying to let go of trying to control it um like my brain will try 377 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:53,440 to come up with everything that I could that could go wrong so that I could I can control it in 378 00:41:53,440 --> 00:42:02,640 advance and so trying to let go of that is a big one um but yeah I think I think you have to work on 379 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:11,600 your self-esteem a lot um like getting to the point that Ashley is at where you can say I am like I am 380 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:16,720 on par with everyone I don't know that I'm there yet uh so that's something that I'm just still 381 00:42:16,720 --> 00:42:21,920 working on for myself but it's definitely having heard it and knowing that it works it would be 382 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:27,120 something that I would try to implement and I think that's one of the things that I would try 383 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:35,600 to implement that's definitely a goal I don't know if you guys are as big of nerds as I am about 384 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:43,040 these things but um in the more recent Marvel movies they've approached the Hulk in the idea 385 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:49,280 that he can control when he hulks out um by saying that he's he's always angry so he doesn't need to 386 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:56,480 control his anger he just sort of unleashes it at any given time and so I think that's one of the 387 00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:02,640 things that I've been working on for a long time and I feel the same except with anxiety I am always 388 00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:10,240 anxious but um my ability to sort of control it and use it to my advantage is a sort of spin it as 389 00:43:10,240 --> 00:43:16,880 um my enthusiasm or my passion about a subject so if I'm anxious and I'm talking really fast 390 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:22,080 and I know that I'm not going to be able to stop myself from doing that then I'm going to use that 391 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:28,320 as a way to control my passion and my enthusiasm and use that as a way to get other people to be 392 00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:34,400 enthusiastic about the same thing so I don't always feel on par with everyone else in the room 393 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:40,880 I would love to feel that that's a goal for sure um but in the meantime I feel like I can use my 394 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:47,440 enthusiasm to at least engage people and that's a way that I can sort of spin my anxiety to be 395 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:56,400 hindrance no I think that's I think that's fabulous um I guess just because I know we've 396 00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:03,360 we're probably about a half hour into this um I just kind of want to like open up for any like 397 00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:09,120 last minute questions or just like thoughts about scientific communication as a whole I know I mean 398 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:15,360 as with all of these topics that we bring to this podcast and we could talk for hours upon hours 399 00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:21,520 there are plenty of books written for all of these types of topics um but I guess one thing 400 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:28,480 I was wondering is if there was any like resources I guess that like you found helped you become a 401 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:36,160 better scientific communicator I know for myself um Brown University has like a guide to science 402 00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:42,000 communication something um that like you know talks about really briefly of like how to know 403 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:46,800 your audience how to say your message how to you know um what medium you're using and it gives a 404 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:52,400 lot of good resources but I didn't know if y'all had any resources that like you wanted to share um 405 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:58,000 for the audience and we can obviously write all of this out in like the podcast descriptions as well 406 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:03,120 um but that worked for you to become you know the science communicator that you are 407 00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:11,840 I think one way I try to do it um mostly because I've only really spoken in educational 408 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:20,640 settings um is uh because I I feel like I learn a little bit differently I try to cater to the way 409 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:26,880 that I would want to be presented to um so if I would want something overly explained or if I 410 00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:32,960 would want a lot of visuals or um like however I just try to think about how I would want to learn 411 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:39,200 and then try to implement that instead of trying to follow like a cookie cutter um like a set way 412 00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:43,920 because we only you know things only expand when we try to like push outside of it and I just try 413 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:54,960 to push to where I would want it pushed to that's I think I my focus has been through my media 414 00:45:54,960 --> 00:46:02,640 literacy training primarily rather than a specific resource and there's you know a ton of YouTube 415 00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:06,800 videos about this sort of thing so it's not something that you need to read a book about 416 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:12,320 or take a course on necessarily although I would recommend if you ever get an opportunity to take 417 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:19,520 a course on that I think it's an extremely valuable part of any education but understanding media 418 00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:26,960 literacy and the way that it can be presented from multiple different media um can help you 419 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:33,760 transform whatever version you're working in you can learn from the tips and tricks from other 420 00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:41,440 uh media and bring it to your specific medium and that's something that I thought was extremely 421 00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:50,560 helpful um my a former advisor gave me a book called uh Write Your Way to the Top um and that 422 00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:57,440 was something that he used a lot in writing his uh journal articles he writes a ton of journal 423 00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:06,000 articles so I do trust his opinion on those things um and that's helpful but again it is a 424 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:12,960 little cookie cutter in in thinking that you have to change your style of thinking style of writing 425 00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:19,040 style of communicating to fit one certain thing rather I would take that as a guide or a suggestion 426 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:27,440 an outline if you will to to put your your own spin on not too cookie cutter 427 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:35,520 Ashley what would you say you're a pretty beloved TA at at the school so how would you how do you 428 00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:36,320 approach it? 429 00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:44,400 Well with all the lectures I've done recently as an instructor the way I do it is 430 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:53,600 um I try to know my students I tried it with meaning I try to know my audience and put in a 431 00:47:53,600 --> 00:48:01,360 little bit of everything for everybody so and part of that is just like what you did Jenna 432 00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:15,440 I know me I I have issues myself and I would like to you know would I like to sit through this 433 00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:20,080 lecture would I like to sit through this presentation would I like to read this article most of the 434 00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:25,280 articles I write I wouldn't want to read but would I want to read this article and 435 00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:31,920 that's how I try to write it that's how I try to give the presentation and what I find is 436 00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:42,560 the delivery is much more important than what's on the slide the delivery is you know how you write 437 00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:53,360 something is more important than what you're writing the the statistics and the materials and 438 00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:59,920 the materials and methods yes you need to be sort of we did this and we did this did this did this 439 00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:09,520 but how you say it really changes the way it's received and that's how I try to write things 440 00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:12,240 that's how I try to give presentations. 441 00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:22,240 No I mean that's I guess that kind of before we close out I guess that kind of leads into that 442 00:49:22,240 --> 00:49:28,240 one of my last questions that I kind of had for this topic was like do y'all think that 443 00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:34,400 everyone within the field of anthropology or even more specifically forensic anthropology 444 00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:44,320 like is it each of our jobs to be science communicators or is it okay for like 445 00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:48,320 one person to be really good at it and like they kind of be the spokesperson or 446 00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:56,400 or should we have like public not public officials what's the word public relations people that like 447 00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:03,600 do the outward facing stuff more or is it kind of on each of us to like 448 00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:07,520 work those muscles to be better science communicators like what do y'all think? 449 00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:14,640 Well I for me personally I think it's a good idea to do both. 450 00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:17,920 We as scientists have to become better scientific communicators. 451 00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:30,080 We have to be able to relate to lay audiences relate to our peers relate to students we have 452 00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:38,720 to be able to relate to a lot of different people but at the same time if you're in say an agency 453 00:50:38,720 --> 00:50:46,880 of some kind and you have to communicate with the public if there's somebody that is really 454 00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:56,240 really really good at that let them do it just let them do it that gets the anxiety off of you 455 00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:59,680 and the information you want to convey is conveyed. 456 00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:06,960 I can agree with that I think we don't need to all be experts in everything and there's going to be 457 00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:12,800 some people who are better at communicating than others and it's a great idea to rely on them for 458 00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:19,200 that expertise just as you rely on any other expert on a particular subject for anything else 459 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:25,040 but I do think there is a baseline level that everybody should be bringing to the table 460 00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:30,960 and that I'm going to harp again on the literacy aspect of it. We really engage in scientific 461 00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:36,960 literacy in our field and that's something that we expect a baseline level of from every scientist 462 00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:43,200 but the media literacy aspect is something that we've really let go and that's a muscle that we 463 00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:49,520 haven't worked and that's one that we could really be bringing to everybody's attention 464 00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:55,200 to at least some degree. I was introduced to it in high school and I think that's a great place 465 00:51:55,200 --> 00:52:02,800 to start to learn those things because as you move into reading different resources you not only need 466 00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:08,000 to learn how to communicate it you need to learn how to digest it too and those things go hand in 467 00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:13,360 hand so if we're if we're being taught that we need to parse through information to a certain 468 00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:19,440 level we need to be able to do that and that's one of the things that we need to be able to do 469 00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:24,320 at a certain level. We also need to be able to deliver that information to a certain level 470 00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:30,640 and that's something I think across the board should be something we all work on a muscle we 471 00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:37,920 all exercise. Yeah I'm somewhere in the middle I suppose I guess I think of for all the Big Bang 472 00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:42,960 Theory people out there I think of like the Sheldon Coopers of the world who are are incredibly 473 00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:47,200 brilliant and have a lot to offer in terms of the research that they can conduct and the things 474 00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:55,920 the answers that they can come up with but who are just not meant for for every audience and if maybe 475 00:52:56,560 --> 00:53:02,320 at some point we got to a place where it would be acceptable for a person to be that brilliant 476 00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:08,960 and then have maybe someone translate it for them like a trusted like we have people who translate 477 00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:13,600 different languages so if maybe you only speak science and that's all you can muster up that you 478 00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:18,880 could find someone that you trust to be your your media person who can translate it from science to 479 00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:26,000 media and then like being okay with that kind of thing because I guess I just wonder if the access 480 00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:30,960 that's one of the the things we didn't get into today but in terms of science communication one 481 00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:37,760 of the issues is access and so if those those brilliant souls out there that just can't communicate 482 00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:44,480 for the life of them but can come up with really beautiful and like just groundbreaking things if 483 00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:52,960 we could find a way to open doors in other ways I don't know. There is scientific journalism I will 484 00:53:52,960 --> 00:54:02,160 plug the work that scientific journalists do here. I did that as part of my minor when I was in my 485 00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:08,560 undergrad because I realized how important it was and the role of a scientific journalist is to take 486 00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:18,320 science writing and to translate it for a general news audience and I think that is such a valuable 487 00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:25,280 skill such a valuable person to have to work with and I learned that a lot of scientific journalists 488 00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:33,200 develop deep relationships with scientists in order to be that sort of translator and that is 489 00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:38,720 just such a great relationship to be a part of and I think something we should be relying on a lot 490 00:54:38,720 --> 00:54:44,880 more because those those people are experts in translating that exact thing. 491 00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:52,640 Yeah that's great like maybe every department someday would have one of those on their staff 492 00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:57,520 that could support the students that just can't you know I don't know I would love that. I mean 493 00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:04,480 I bet the journalists would love the jobs too so yeah yeah let's all do it but yeah I mean I don't 494 00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:11,440 know if y'all have any last minute questions or comments that y'all want to kind of let our 495 00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:17,200 audience know. I know I just really wanted to thank Laura for joining us and I mean I know for 496 00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:22,080 sure giving me a lot to think about about how I do science communication and hopefully she kind of 497 00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:29,520 gave y'all as the audience as well some stuff to think about. But yeah so any last minute remarks 498 00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:37,040 before we sign out? I just want to say thank you so much for including me here this was really fun 499 00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:43,200 and I love talking about this. I'm always happy for the opportunity and this was great and if 500 00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:48,480 the audience ever has any questions or anything that they're interested in I can give you contact 501 00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:58,080 information to share. I'm happy to continue this conversation off the air. Perfect yeah I know we 502 00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:05,280 have a email that you can email us at Ashley it's like the Bone Club something right what is it 503 00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:15,200 again sorry? It's the bone club podcast at gmail.com. Perfect it's in all the bio stuff for where you 504 00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:22,480 ever click this podcast. But yeah we can definitely add your contact Laura to this episode as well so 505 00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:29,440 if they want to reach out to you and get you know pick your brain some more they can do that. But 506 00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:37,920 yeah I mean I think that's really it for the Bone Club this episode so yeah. That is thank you so 507 00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:47,200 much Laura. Thank you and I know kind of along this same topic of science communication and 508 00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:52,400 getting that feedback I mean we're also willing to listen to feedback from the audience about 509 00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:55,280 what y'all like about our podcast but you don't like about our podcast. 510 00:56:56,720 --> 00:57:01,040 Topics that y'all want us to discuss because you know the last couple months we've kind of just been 511 00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:07,840 talking about things that interested us and things that like you know the conversation geared one way 512 00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:12,080 as we just chatted with each other and we're like oh we should do that as another episode. But if 513 00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:16,880 y'all have any specific topics y'all want to discuss as well just let us know in the emails. 514 00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:31,680 Workshop with us. Yeah but I guess we're signing off. Thank you all. Bye. Bye.