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Welcome, welcome everybody to the inaugural episode of the Bone Club.

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I'm here with Stephanie Hartley and Jenna McCray,

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and my name is Ashley Smith and we'll be your hosts as we journey through the

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science that is true crime, CSI,

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death investigation and the field of forensic anthropology.

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The goal of this podcast is when we saw and when we look at

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the media landscape that is today,

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you have true crime podcasts that are very popular.

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You have television shows such as CSI and some of the others

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for our, you know, when we were coming up, it was Bones.

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I never liked the show, but many in my cohorts did.

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We also have crime novels that seem to be really popular

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these days in conjunction with the spicy novels.

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So we see all these different things that talk about death investigation,

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that talk about, to an extent,

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forensic anthropology, but there isn't much of a discussion as to what that science is.

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So you'll read or you'll see or you'll hear on forensic files

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that the shape of the skull indicated that the person was African-American.

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What does that mean? How did we come up with it?

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What's the science behind that?

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That's the goal of this podcast.

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And we also want to discuss the field of forensic anthropology

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and what's going on in it.

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How are things going? How do we do what we do?

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And how does this field constantly change?

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And to do that, we have three really good forensic anthropologists.

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If we do say so ourselves.

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My name is Ashley Smith.

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My name is Ashley Smith.

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I am a PhD candidate at the University of Toronto.

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I work mainly out of the University of Toronto Mississauga campus,

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where I teach in the Department of Anthropology and in the Forensic Science Program.

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My PhD is in forensic anthropology, essentially,

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and I received my Masters of Science degree in 2012 from Boston University

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also in forensic anthropology.

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I'm about two and a half months from completing my PhD here

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and getting ready to go on to the job market.

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So things are a little bit up in the air.

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I have throughout my career had an extensive record

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when it comes to both research and cases.

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So I've worked about 50 different cases over the last decade.

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And I also do a lot of research and that research is widely varied.

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Amongst some of the stuff that I've had published or is currently under review

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are things on say, penitentive trauma, penetrative trauma

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and its role in decomposition,

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or how standardized are our osteometrics, how we measure bones.

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Looking at the decay of bone proteins and its use as determining the time since death,

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or how bone cells migrate and how you can use those to determine

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if an injury occurred when someone died or just after someone died.

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In my more recent publications and some of the stuff I've been working on now,

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is looking at the field in general.

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I worked with a collaborative group with about seven authors

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looking at how we can incorporate the trans community into forensic anthropology

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from a casework side, a teaching side, a research side of things.

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And my current work that I'm working on with about a...

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Hey, Siri.

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Hey, Siri.

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Late night.

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Well, we're going to edit that out.

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Should have done that before.

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That'll make it good.

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It's funny.

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Actually, I may do that.

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So the stuff I'm currently working on now is trying to address the need for advocacy

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in forensic anthropology.

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We as forensic anthropologists tend to see the final end of a lot of marginalized individuals.

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And yet our field has largely said we are objective, we don't discuss the policies,

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we don't address the problems, but we have a unique privilege.

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We need to start doing that.

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And that leads me to why I came into this field in the first place.

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Why am I a forensic anthropologist?

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And I hope Stephanie and Jenna can discuss the same thing.

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For me, I came into this field because as a trans person, way back in 2009 when I first

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said I want to be that, I questioned what would happen to me and how would I be identified

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if I was found in the woods?

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And while I tried to get started on it in my masters, it didn't really pan out then.

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It's something I'm starting to shift my focus towards now.

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So I want to see how we can help to identify trans identified individuals and get them

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off the rolls of the unidentified.

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So that's a little bit about my background.

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Stephanie, what about you?

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Hi, yes, everyone.

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I'm Stephanie Hartley.

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I am a master's degree forensic anthropologist.

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I currently work for SNA International supporting the DPA mission, which is pretty much a long

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acronym, but it is Defense Prisoners of War Missing in Action Accounting Agency.

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We predominantly look at past wars to try to identify the soldiers who went missing.

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So if you think a plane goes down in Vietnam, someone has to go out and try to find it.

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That's a lot of what that company does.

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And I do primarily lab work.

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So I work day in and day out looking at skeletal cases to try to create that biological profile

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using things like DNA and isotopes and a bunch of other things to try to come together to

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create what essentially is a bio profile or a picture of who that individual was before

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they died or when they died and be able to try to accurately ID them.

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I got my master's degree at the University of West Florida under Alicia Winburn.

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So if you follow a lot of forensic anthropology stuff, I'm sure you've heard her name.

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And I was in anthropology as a whole, but I focused on forensics.

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And then I got my undergraduate degree at the University of Louisiana in Lafayette.

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And I had a dual major between criminal justice and anthropology.

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And I dabbled in some chemistry, mainly because I thought I was going to do med school and

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that didn't pan out as much as I thought it was going to.

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I found my true love in anthropology and I hope you all can find it too.

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My research primarily for grad school, instead of studying skeletal remains, which is what

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a lot of people do for their research, I actually studied the people that did this research.

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So I looked primarily at cognitive biases.

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And so how Ashley was talking about how a lot of times scientific fields like to tout

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how objective they are and things like that.

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I really delved into that and tried to see are there cognitive biases that creep through

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what is objective science.

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Hint, hint, it is yes.

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And so I primarily focused on that.

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And then more recently since starting with the DPAA, I have really started to dabble

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back into my chemistry side and have gone into isotope research to try to help with

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decomingling, which is just a really fancy word to say you have a bunch of people and

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bunch of parts of people and you have to try to figure out which one is person one, person

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two, et cetera, try to segregate those remains into discrete people and doing that the isotopes.

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I have a lot of random interests that I haven't quite done research in, more just like personal

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exploration but not written research like a lot of academics do.

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But I primarily do a lot of casework.

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Pretty much it's all I do a day in and day out is casework.

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And then I have dabbled in some cultural resource management.

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So I dipped my toe into the archaeology side, being able to actually go out into the field

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and do those types of excavations or digging to see if you can find remains or find anything

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that would showcase that there was someone or something there at that time.

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So any funerary objects or other things like that.

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So yeah, that's pretty much me.

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But I can toss it on over to Jenna.

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All right.

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Hello.

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I am Jenna McCray, otherwise known as Jenna Mack.

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I am actually completing my master's degree tomorrow.

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So I will graduate tomorrow from the University of Toronto with an evolutionary anthropology

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degree.

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My research was also focused in forensic anthropology.

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I mostly focused my efforts towards identifying gender on the skeleton.

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So you may hear on bones or in all those various shows they say the shape of the eye orbit

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says it's male.

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I'm trying to look outside of that.

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And to Ashley's point, I'm trying to see how we can identify how a person lived and

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what their lived gender was.

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So I was looking at evidence of wearing high heels using radiographs.

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My undergraduate degree was actually at the University of Western Ontario.

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And I was doing that in rehabilitation sciences.

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So I've always really loved studying people and the way that people work.

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And I just kind of switched on over to the way that people lived and then how I can see

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that when they die.

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I've always really loved helping people and I love the idea of bringing loved ones home

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to their people.

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I'm probably the babyest of the group here in terms of my expertise in forensic anthropology.

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I have been on a handful of cases.

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So real field work.

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But I'm just working to figure out what my next stages are.

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Sounds good.

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Ashley works with me.

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We're both in the exact same lab.

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So I've tried to take her under my wing and tried to show her some things.

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And she's done very well.

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So actually that does bring me up to bring up a question.

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And it's the purpose of this particular episode.

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We've talked a lot about forensic anthropology, how we are forensic anthropologists, what we

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do, how we do things.

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But we didn't answer the question, what is forensic anthropology?

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Now I know there's the Wikipedia answer.

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We study someone's bones and try to find out their ancestry and their sex and their stature

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and their height, what we call the bio profile.

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We try to understand who that person is biologically and what happened to them.

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But what is forensic anthropology really beyond the Wikipedia?

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What do you think?

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I like to think of forensic anthropology as the sciences closest connection to humanity

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because depending on what school you go to, your anthropology degree might be a BS or

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a bachelor of science or a BA, bachelor of arts.

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And I think it really is both.

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I think we are a perfect mixture of, yes, science.

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We look at skeletal and biological remains to try to create that type of identification.

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But we do so much more than just a bio profile, more than just a trauma assessment.

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We really are that speaker for the individual who died and being able to tell the last moments

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before they died and who they were as a person.

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And you really get to know the humanity in that skeletal assemblage and in that person

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and being able to showcase that to the world.

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So I really enjoy forensic anthropology.

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And that's what I always like to remind myself when I work casework, that it is not just

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your Halloween plastic skeleton that you're looking at and thinking cool things, but really

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this is someone's loved one and it really is your connection to that humanity and to

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the cultures around you that is really important for forensic anthropology.

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Yeah.

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Broadly stated to me, anthropology generally is just the study of humans.

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It's the study of where we came from, where we're going, what we've done, what we're

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doing.

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And forensic anthropology is the application of what we know about all of those things

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and how all of them interact in a person's life and in a person's death and how we can

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use that information to not only identify them, but to figure out how they lived and

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how they died.

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Yeah, see, I mean, for me, it's those things and something a little bit different.

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It is the science of death.

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It is the anthropology of death.

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It is the one thing that unites all people, all cultures, all nations, not to get too

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dark.

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Everybody dies.

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Quote, George Rube.

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Everybody dies and our field studies death.

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We are the science of death.

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We are the anthropology of death.

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We are the ones who see people at their most vulnerable state because nobody can, they

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can't speak up for themselves anymore.

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That's our job is to speak up for them, find out what happened to them.

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But as Jenna said, what is their lived experience?

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And I think that's what's changing in our field because our field for the longest time

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was just that pure methodological, what do we have on the table?

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And now when you start to see effectively what is our generation of anthropologists,

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we're asking, no, what is the lived experience of that person?

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What made that person the best way to help them?

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What were you saying, Jenna?

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Just like what made that person that person, you know?

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Yeah.

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What makes that person that person?

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What makes them unique?

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What makes them them?

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And why is it we want to erase it in death?

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We can't erase it in death.

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So I think that is our ultimate goal.

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Now we can't ignore some of the stuff that's that we've done in history, the bio profile

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and things like that, but we do have to expand on what we do.

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And that ultimately is forensic anthropology.

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It's something that I'm trying to do and a lot of other people are trying to do.

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We want to bring back the anthropology in forensic anthropology.

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Right.

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Bring back the human.

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Forensics is just a descriptor.

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We are anthropologists first.

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And forensic anthropology because there's laws and legalities behind it, which is what

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totes it as forensic.

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But really we are anthropologists first and being able to put our little anthropology

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hat on first is really important.

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And then forensics is just that feather in the cap instead of the entire hat.

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For lack of a better metaphor.

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No, that's a great metaphor.

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It is a great metaphor.

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It brings me to the next thing.

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It's just a thought in my head.

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I recall when I first got started in a professional organization, it's called the American Academy

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of Forensic Sciences.

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It's one of the largest forensic science organizations in the world.

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As a matter of fact, Stephanie and I are both members of that organization.

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And when I got started in as a student affiliate in 2011, we were debating as a section to

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drop the term physical anthropology and just go with anthropology.

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That's our section name now is with the anthropology section.

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The debate centered around, well, who can say they are in a member of this section?

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Are we going to allow sociocultural anthropologists into forensic anthropology, into the anthropology

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section?

250
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And I have to ask, what's wrong with that?

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What is wrong with collaborating with and partnering with the sociocultural side of

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00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:21,240
things?

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And for an academic like myself, the people on the other end of the hall that are teaching

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what I call squishy theory.

255
00:18:33,180 --> 00:18:34,840
Why can't we get involved with them?

256
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Why can't we discuss them?

257
00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:40,480
Why can't we incorporate more theory in forensic anthropology?

258
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The more multidisciplinary, the better.

259
00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:49,160
It is a multi, well, anthropology is a multidisciplinary field.

260
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It's a multidisciplinary science and social science.

261
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And I think forensic anthropology has sort of gotten away from that.

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And so we're trying to bring it back or we should try to bring it back.

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00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:09,520
I definitely think there are quite a few people in the field that are trying to, you know,

264
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pull it back in and be like, remember, like all methods are based in theory.

265
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And so just, you know, ignoring the fact that there's theory that is just entrenched in

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everything we do is bad science.

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Like, you know, you have to really keep your mind open to, well, not only what method am

268
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I choosing to do my casework, but why am I choosing this method?

269
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What is the theory behind this method?

270
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Is that theory logical and sound?

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And does it stand up to, you know, the standards that we set for ourselves in the field?

272
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And all of those things are really important because they will shape your answer.

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So your conclusion is really shaped by the world around you because people are shaped

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by the world around you.

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And so trying to ignore that theory really does yourself a disservice.

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And then does the people you're serving your casework, because realistically, we are serving

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our cases and, you know, trying to ID and things like that.

278
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And if you try to ignore those things, you're also doing a disservice to your casework and

279
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to those people that, you know, you're trying to give back to their loved ones.

280
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And that's, that's who we deal with.

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That's our whole mission is reuniting the deceased with their loved ones, whether that

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is their biological family or their chosen family.

283
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:55,000
It is to put a name and a life to a set of remains, to a skeleton.

284
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Right.

285
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It's giving them answers.

286
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:06,440
There's a lot of times, you know, once it gets to the point that forensic anthropologists

287
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:11,320
are looking at our case, working at these remains, they've been dead for quite a while.

288
00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:15,920
So the families might think they're still missing.

289
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They might, you know, think, assume that they're, you know, dead, but have not found remains

290
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:23,600
to have no answers.

291
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There's that ambiguous loss that is just perpetuating their lives that they don't have that answer.

292
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And it's really hard to start a grieving process when you don't have an answer.

293
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:39,040
And so forensic anthropologists, part of our job is to try to give that answer.

294
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:45,720
And I know at least for myself with the work that I do, it's also sometimes explaining,

295
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:54,360
well, where was, you know, my grandpa or my great uncle or whoever was in the war, where

296
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did they die?

297
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What were they doing?

298
00:21:57,120 --> 00:21:58,120
How did they die?

299
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Because a lot of those things aren't known.

300
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:09,480
And so giving that type of answer is really a start to closure for a lot of people.

301
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:14,260
And what you do is actually very important, not just for the sort of individualistic trying

302
00:22:14,260 --> 00:22:25,880
to deal with the families, but if you think about American culture, you and the work that

303
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:32,600
your colleagues do actually fulfills part of what I would call the American ethos, particularly

304
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:36,400
when it comes to our service people.

305
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:40,400
And that is we leave no one behind.

306
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As a country, we try to leave no one behind.

307
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And your mission is to leave no one behind.

308
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,880
No human gets left behind.

309
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:54,960
No human gets left behind.

310
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:55,960
Yep.

311
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,560
No human gets left behind.

312
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:09,680
And that sort of, you can think about it by looking at, just look at CNN.

313
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:17,200
I mean, it feels like once a month, once every other month, there's a news story where your

314
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:26,160
outfit or the DPAA has identified somebody and brought them home to their families.

315
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:35,600
Now that's fulfilling sort of a national sort of a cultural aspect to it because it's fulfilling

316
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:40,880
that need that, hey, we have found another one.

317
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:42,480
We are not leaving them behind.

318
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:48,080
And I think it's also, I mean, it's very easy for a lot of people to connect to that as

319
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:53,880
far as military is concerned, because it is often a saying of no man left behind for military.

320
00:23:53,880 --> 00:24:00,080
But I think all of forensic anthropology, I think a lot of us think that way of our

321
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:05,160
casework and the people that we are studying and trying to identify, we don't want to leave

322
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:06,840
them behind either.

323
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:17,840
And so I know the board certification for forensic anthropology has like Instagrams

324
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:24,080
and other things like that, that they often will showcase cold cases that hadn't been

325
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:29,440
able to be ID because science is always progressing and trying to get better.

326
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:34,800
And forensic anthropologists and new science has helped to identify someone who their case

327
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:36,680
has been cold for 20 years.

328
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:43,640
And so it's not just UPAA and it's not just military, but it really is no one left behind

329
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,360
for all of us.

330
00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:50,040
And forensic anthropology is not just the US.

331
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,320
We have forensic anthropologists worldwide.

332
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:59,440
And I think a lot of us think that way of I'm not going to leave my casework behind

333
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,240
because this is someone's loved one.

334
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,680
This is someone's someone.

335
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,240
And you can't just ignore that.

336
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:12,720
And so having that, at least for myself, that's why I really gravitated more towards forensic

337
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:18,200
anthropology instead of going back to med school was because of that is you don't like

338
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,960
we are the study of death and you don't want like death isn't the end.

339
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:29,320
It might have been the end for someone's breathing, living life, but it's not the end of their

340
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:30,320
story.

341
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,960
It's not the end of their legacy on the world.

342
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:39,200
I feel like a lot of times for forensic anthropology, being able to make those identifications and

343
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:45,400
tell their story, it's sharing their legacy and furthering themselves.

344
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:46,880
And so they don't end.

345
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:52,800
Some of the work we do as well is just recovering individuals.

346
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:57,560
If you think of a house fire, when somebody perishes in a house fire, somebody may want

347
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:02,080
to come home to that house and one of the important jobs that we have is making sure

348
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:07,040
that we recover all of that individual's remains so that they can be laid to rest however the

349
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,240
family wants to lead them to rest.

350
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:15,160
And just ensuring that not only does no human get left behind, but no, to the best of our

351
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:19,160
abilities, no part of that human will be left behind.

352
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:20,160
Yeah.

353
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:29,600
I mean, and here in Ontario, we deal with indigenous remains from time to time.

354
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:34,320
What we call here in Canada, First Nations.

355
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:42,720
And that is a very big part of the various different nations' culture is even the tiniest

356
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:50,440
little finger bone is person and you don't leave it behind.

357
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:55,560
And you're right Stephanie, it permeates not just at the DPAA, it permeates all throughout.

358
00:26:55,560 --> 00:27:01,200
I am a consultant with a nonprofit organization called Please Bring Me Home.

359
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:10,700
The whole purpose of the organization is to sort of investigate and search for cold case

360
00:27:10,700 --> 00:27:13,560
missing persons.

361
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:19,240
And my job is to go through whatever they find and to see, yeah, we may have someone

362
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:26,040
here and trying to help those investigators figure out where they should search and where

363
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,000
they shouldn't search.

364
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:29,800
And it's a fantastic organization.

365
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:31,200
It is a fantastic organization.

366
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,400
If you're in Canada, you should really look them up.

367
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,320
It's called Please Bring Me Home.

368
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,360
You can volunteer with them.

369
00:27:38,360 --> 00:27:40,400
You can volunteer with them.

370
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,880
You can volunteer with them, surely.

371
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,120
All right.

372
00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:49,920
Does anybody have anything they want to add?

373
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:57,320
I say, I guess just to try to liven things up a bit because while we are the study of

374
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:04,320
death and sometimes that can get depressing and dark, right?

375
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,640
Sometimes it can be really, really cool and fascinating and obviously a little morbid.

376
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,280
So if you have a morbid sense of humor, you probably will love it here.

377
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:17,680
But you also, as forensic anthropologists, every case is different because every person

378
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:18,720
is different.

379
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:24,480
And so you get to see so many cool things about the human body that you might not have

380
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,120
known where like, you know, you could have studied.

381
00:28:27,120 --> 00:28:28,880
I mean, I went through a lot of school.

382
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:30,680
They went through a lot of school.

383
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:36,200
And still, I feel like every time I, you know, open a new case, I learned something new about

384
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:40,080
the human body, which is always really fascinating.

385
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:44,600
Just seeing all the different intricacies of people and how even, you know, at least

386
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:50,720
for the cases that I work on, it's a pretty homogeneous group because if you think World

387
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:56,080
War II, it's a lot of 18 to 25 year old white guys, right?

388
00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:01,960
But even in that really homogeneous group, you see so much variability in the human skeleton,

389
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,400
which is super fascinating.

390
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:08,800
And so I know I really enjoy being able to see that.

391
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:16,320
And then also, let's be real, if you tuned in to a podcast called the Bone Club, you

392
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:24,520
probably really like CSI, you like crime shows, you see a lot of trauma, and not just like,

393
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,760
oh, the trauma that caused the person's death, but like trauma that happened beforehand.

394
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:33,720
So like, I've seen cases where there's massive blunt force trauma to the head.

395
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:38,800
So essentially got hit with something big and hard enough to for it to have affected,

396
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:43,640
you know, your cranium, and they live to tell the tale, right?

397
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:45,560
It healed over and everything's fine.

398
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:47,640
And you know, they kept on living.

399
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:53,560
And that really just shows the resiliency of mankind as well, because, you know, you

400
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:58,160
can go through so much and still live to tell the tale.

401
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:02,080
And then while obviously everyone dies, and that's how you ended up on our tables.

402
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,280
But now we get to tell your tales.

403
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:09,600
And that's also a really important, fascinating thing for me, at least.

404
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:18,400
Well, as a person I was talking to last week was saying, we are very special people because

405
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:19,600
we're not accountants.

406
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:24,080
It's not the same job day in and day out.

407
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,120
Every day is a new thing.

408
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,840
Every day is a new adventure.

409
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:30,920
Every case is unique.

410
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,160
Every scene is unique.

411
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:42,480
So if you're somebody who wants structure, but at the same time doesn't want the same

412
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:49,720
thing over and over and over and over again, consider forensic anthropology.

413
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,880
Plus, we're some pretty cool people.

414
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:58,640
Trust us, we are some pretty cool people.

415
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:06,160
You also get to do some pretty wild and epic things sometimes where, you know, you might

416
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:11,320
get called out for a recovery and have to climb a mountainside.

417
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:16,080
I've never climbed a mountainside, so you get to learn a new skill or, you know, just

418
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,200
this morning I was digging a hole in the middle of somewhere else.

419
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,920
So it's like, you never really know what the job is going to make you do.

420
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:28,040
So you always kind of have to be on your toes a little bit, which is really fun.

421
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:34,880
So then you get to see so much and also interact with the world around you in just ways that

422
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:39,280
you probably wouldn't have, you know, being an accountant or being, you know, other different

423
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:40,840
types of jobs.

424
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,360
I know I've been volunteering.

425
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:44,960
So I live on Oahu.

426
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:51,920
I've been volunteering with some organizations in a city not too far from where I'm currently

427
00:31:51,920 --> 00:32:00,440
at and trying to find Iwi Kapuna, which is essentially ancestors, and trying to be able

428
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:06,240
to repatriate and rebury them in a proper way and being able to work with the cultures

429
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:11,560
around you and like being able to learn so much more that I probably would never have

430
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:16,560
learned in a random other day job, right?

431
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:24,960
You don't get yourself in those weird sticky situations as an accountant or even when I

432
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,040
wanted to do med school, even as a doctor, you probably won't get yourself in those types

433
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:34,880
of situations and you really get to learn so much about the world around you, which

434
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:39,420
then helps you learn about yourself a little bit as well, because being able to see that

435
00:32:39,420 --> 00:32:44,520
variability and seeing the culture differences really just shows you not only how similar

436
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:51,520
everyone is to each other, but how different everyone is and how beautiful that can be,

437
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:53,120
at least for myself.

438
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:54,120
Yeah.

439
00:32:54,120 --> 00:33:00,640
And then you also have the slight element of danger.

440
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:08,120
Going to work at a fire scene from a house that is less than secure and it's minus 25

441
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:14,760
degrees Celsius, we're getting below zero Fahrenheit.

442
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:15,760
It's fun.

443
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:16,760
Feel toes free.

444
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:17,760
It's fun.

445
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:19,640
So I might leave those for you.

446
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:21,560
I'm not a fan of the cold.

447
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:22,560
That's why you're in Hawaii.

448
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:30,480
I think the funniest thing about this field too is like one of the things that I would

449
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:35,400
like to say is dead people don't talk back, but I've never learned so much about, like

450
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:40,600
I did an undergrad and a degree in alive people and I've never learned so much about people

451
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,120
as I have in studying them in depth.

452
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,440
And I feel like that's just the craziest thing about this.

453
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:51,760
And at the end of the day, no matter who you are or what you do or where you came from,

454
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:53,680
everybody is just bones.

455
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,520
At the end of it, we're all just the same.

456
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:58,360
We're skin sacks and bones.

457
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:05,120
And it's humbling to realize that we're all very unique and also so very much the same.

458
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:06,120
Agreed.

459
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:11,160
There are other squishy bits in there too, besides skin sacks.

460
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,240
Yeah, the occasional squishy part.

461
00:34:14,240 --> 00:34:17,760
The squishy bits are not the stuff I like either.

462
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,600
They're not the Halloween decorations.

463
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,640
I'll stay away from my fleshy bits.

464
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,760
So I will take fleshy bits over hair and nails.

465
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,200
That's never been the thing that I love.

466
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:32,280
I actually, I love the fleshy bits.

467
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:41,520
One of the things I have gotten into, it was my undergrad, my master's program was actually

468
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:43,000
in a department of anatomy.

469
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,720
So we had to do a lot of the gross anatomy stuff.

470
00:34:45,720 --> 00:34:49,600
I've been a teaching assistant and I actually started out as the course instruct, one of

471
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:54,720
the course instructors for our forensic anatomy course here.

472
00:34:54,720 --> 00:34:55,720
And I love anatomy.

473
00:34:55,720 --> 00:34:58,320
I love soft tissue anatomy.

474
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,400
It's absolutely fascinating.

475
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,520
But I'll say the bones are best.

476
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:03,520
I'm fascinated.

477
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,720
I have a stank face the entire time I do autopsies.

478
00:35:06,720 --> 00:35:07,720
Yep.

479
00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:11,520
But I'm like, oh, this is so cool.

480
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,960
This is the coolest thing I've ever seen.

481
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:19,580
No, no, I find them fascinating.

482
00:35:19,580 --> 00:35:24,200
It's just watching an autopsy on somebody who is rather decomposed where you want to

483
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:25,200
go.

484
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:29,840
I'll stand on the other side of the air conditioning.

485
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:36,080
I would say I'll take the smell of decomp over the smell of burned remains because let's

486
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,520
be real, it just smells like fried chicken.

487
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:40,000
And that just feels weird.

488
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,000
No, not fried chicken.

489
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:43,000
Barbecue.

490
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:44,000
Good job.

491
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:51,520
It's so glamorous, isn't it?

492
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,720
You know you are good for this field when you can come back from a fire scene and say,

493
00:35:55,720 --> 00:35:56,720
I'm hungry.

494
00:35:56,720 --> 00:36:01,080
Or when you can be on a fire scene and eat a meat lover's pizza.

495
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:02,080
No problem.

496
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:03,080
Yeah.

497
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:04,080
Didn't you do that?

498
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:05,080
Yeah.

499
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,880
I felt very dark, but I enjoyed it.

500
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:10,680
It's a really good pizza.

501
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:12,880
You do have to have a slightly dark sense of humor.

502
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:13,880
Yes, you do.

503
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:18,360
When you deal with death all day long, obviously there are some traumas that go along with

504
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:19,360
it.

505
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:23,320
And for a lot of us, trauma response, humor.

506
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:24,320
Yeah.

507
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:29,960
I mean, if you don't find a way, and we'll actually probably discuss and have an episode

508
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:31,760
where we talk about these traumas.

509
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:36,360
But yeah, if you don't have a way to deal with it, you are destined for the grippy socks

510
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:37,360
factory.

511
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:44,880
Hard to stay out either way.

512
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:51,480
So I think we've just about covered what forensic anthropology is.

513
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,200
I want to thank you all for listening to us today.

514
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:59,920
Our next episode will be in about a month from now, and it'll be on job prospects in

515
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:01,760
forensic anthropology.

516
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:06,320
It's something that I've come to appreciate greatly as I'm coming to my end.

517
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:11,320
Jenna is right at her end, and she's debating whether or not to go into the field or go

518
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:16,800
into academia as a PhD student.

519
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:18,800
And Stephanie went right into the field.

520
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:19,800
Oh yeah.

521
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:20,800
Went straight to work.

522
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:21,800
Straight to work.

523
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,960
Straight to work.

524
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:31,000
So we're going to discuss next time the various different job prospects.

525
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,880
How do you actually get into this field?

526
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:36,200
What are some things that you can do?

527
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,920
And we're going to do it from a more realistic perspective.

528
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:47,080
This isn't necessarily going to be a rah rah selling point, but something you should consider

529
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,880
if you're seriously considering this field.

530
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,160
So again, I want to thank you all.

531
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:59,160
If you want to reach us, we do have some ways for you to reach us.

532
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:05,800
We have an email account, which is boneclubpodcast at gmail.com.

533
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:11,940
That's boneclubpodcast at gmail.com.

534
00:38:11,940 --> 00:38:20,920
And we're also on Instagram and threads as at the bone club podcast.

535
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,400
That's at the bone club podcast.

536
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:25,400
Yep.

537
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:32,960
So if you weren't scared away by the fleshy bits talk or the burned remains talks or the

538
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:40,280
whatever else we decided to throw at you today, I mean, join the bone club.

539
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:41,280
Join the bone club.

540
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:42,280
Join us.

541
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:43,280
All right.

542
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:50,280
So for myself, Stephanie and Jenna, we want to thank you and we'll see you next month.

543
00:38:50,280 --> 00:39:12,640
See you next time.