Hey band BFFs, this is Katie here. I wanted to
let you know that this week is going to be a
special episode just for you. Recently, Laura
and I met with Kyle Smith, who is in charge of
the growing band director podcast, and we got
a chance to speak with him about all kinds of
great things like our our band BFFs podcast,
but also getting some advice from him and how
he chooses music. We got to talk about some of
our very favorite pieces and advice that we have
for lots of different age levels of band directors.
So we hope that you enjoy this crossover episode
of band BFFs and the growing band director podcast.
Welcome back to the Growing Band Director podcast.
This is episode number 299. I'm here with Katie
and Laura from Band BFF's podcast. Hello. Beautiful.
Thanks for being here. Appreciate it. Of course.
We're here on a Friday after school. Yes. So
we're all working at probably max 50 % right
now. That's fair. We're going to fake it till
we make it, man. Story of our careers. That's
right. I would think. Yep. So nice to meet you
guys. I got kind of hooked up with you guys through
Mark Kaspersen of TuneOcaddy. He kind of mentioned
that he loves listening to your podcast. And
we love Mark. He's the best. He's awesome. So
what I love about the episodes I've listened
to of yours is that your mission of helping people
with programming, right, is like just a huge.
And if we talk about like the big things about
being a band director, like programming's up
there. It's such a huge. So I'm just curious,
how did you guys kind of stumble upon this platform
and how to do it and your mission and all that?
Absolutely. So Laura and I were best friends.
And so a long time ago, we're in a book club
together. Probably about three or four years
ago, we read a book called Office BFFs. And it's
from the two ladies that are on the office. Which
I feel terrible. I can't think of the actress's
name right now. You mean Poehler? No, no, no.
Sorry. I can't remember. So Jenna Fisher, Jenna
Fisher. And what's the lady's name? Dwight and?
the pan up Yeah. It's bad that we don't know.
That one, that one. Something Kinsey, Angela
Kinsey, that's it. That's it, that's it. Pam
and Angela, Pam and Angela. Yes. So anyways,
they wrote a book that we read in, in book club.
And it was about how they met professionally
through the office, but through, you know, recording
the episodes and hanging out and everything,
they became real life best friends. And then
they stayed that way for the rest of their life.
They, they brought up their children together
and all that good stuff. So Laura and I had,
like gotten together after we read that, and
we really wanted to start a podcast that would
be focused on helping young band directors in
some way as a way for us to mentor and give back
to other people. Well, and I'll interject for
just a second. Katie is the one who came up with
the idea of doing a podcast, and she was, she
was, I mean, for. over a year, she would be like,
I still have that thing about doing a podcast,
and I'm on board, we just have to have a, it
has to be something that's different than what
anyone else does. There's a ton of band director
podcasts out there, and we don't want to reinvent
the wheel. And it just took us a little while
to kind of find what we thought the right niche
for us was going to be. Right. And so we decided
that something both of us felt really good and
passionate about was programming. Like you mentioned,
it's something that a lot of young directors
and even like season directors like us struggle
with at times, especially if the instrumentation
of your group is not always like what is more
traditional for other people. So we kind of come
at it from the perspective of we've both had
small bands, big bands, bands with no trumpets,
bands with trumpets. So we kind of use that experience
to help other younger directors. throughout the
whole United States. And you know to be honest
I and Katie and I've talked a lot about this
late now in the you know uh and towards the end
of uh the career um I am feeling certainly more
compelled to help younger teachers like moving
from the student realm to the teacher realm and
this was a great way for us to kind of you know
shift into that uh that territory. I mean, it's
such a need for all teachers, but especially
if you go to college students and you say, name
grade two pieces. They, you know, they just don't
know. And no matter what colleges do, they're
not going to get enough. So that's why I try
to put out a lot of pieces. I like to talk about
all the pieces. You do it definitely a different
way how you really get in depth with every single
piece. Also, you mentioned the country, the world.
I mean, when you're doing a podcast, it's it's
everywhere. Like you would say, yeah, I don't
know if you've heard from but like I get messages,
hey, we're in New Zealand and there's no professional
development. And this podcast you listen to is
like it. So. which is amazing right because then
you know you're having an impact on anybody that
just needs it you know not everybody can have
access to a mentor or somebody to help them so
if and we have had a lot of people reach out
and like oh my gosh your episode on whatever
piece was so helpful to me because i just didn't
really know where to start or what to do or if
it would fit my band so yeah it's awesome and
it's rewarding to hear that from other people
absolutely yeah it's also nice to hear that somebody
listened because you do it and you put it out
and you're like, well, it's out there. Hopefully
somebody is going to listen. Hopefully we're
helping someone. Mark is one of our biggest fans.
I'm going to give him another shout out because
he loves the episodes and he says that they help
him pick his music every year with his coworkers
as well. Just as a side note, I was telling you
off air, but I'll tell people too. Terry White
is one of my family's good friends and one of
your things was Mystery Ride. We love that piece.
And he actually mentioned, he said, I think they
know more about the piece than I know as as the
band director, as the the composer. So both of
your middle school teachers, just like a side
thought here for a second. My wife, when she
was in college, thought she was going to be a
high school teacher. And then she got a sniff
of middle school and she's like, this is it.
I don't want to go anywhere else. So for people
who are maybe in college and thinking like, how
do I know if I'm like set out for middle school?
And some people can do multiple. It's not like
you have to do one. So like, what do you think?
it helps people know if middle school is kind
of the track for them. I love that question.
Well, for me personally, like your wife, I 100
% intended to teach high school. And we haven't
even talked about, I don't know what your story
is, but I intended to teach high school. And
it was not until I student taught, like the very
end of college, I student taught and I was student
teaching in a very well respected high school
band program and middle school feeder pattern,
Marcus High School and Lamar Middle School that
was feeding. them and I had an incredible student
teaching experience but I fell in love with the
middle school kids. I just they were so awkward
and still adorable and elementary minded and
they smell bad and they needed me. And I loved
it. I absolutely loved it. I ended, I mean within
a month of student teaching I was like this is
where I'm supposed to be. And then certainly
I realized after student teaching or through
student teaching the impact you can have. teaching
beginners, like that was huge for me. And I'm,
Katie and I both are a little bit of control
freaks. And so the idea of just like I get to
have my hands in that very early stage and you
can't blame anybody else for something being
wrong, you know, teaching those beginners. So
I just, I fell in love with them. I don't know.
I think it was somewhere near year six or seven.
Oh, no. I had to do it. Cancel. But I realized
that my personality was better suited for middle
school because I like to be goofy and fun and
talk to kids just like... Like just have a good
time. Yeah, I really did know in eighth grade
that I was gonna be a middle school band director
So I didn't really ever want to do high school
for the reason Lara just said I always thought
it was it was just so cool to watch you yourself
or kids or whoever learn how to do Thing like
learn an instrument in one year like I learned
how to play the trumpet when I was in college
And I was like this is so cool that like at the
beginning of the year I just like started renting
a trumpet open the case didn't know how to do
anything and then by the end of my college career
I could play the trumpet super well. So that's
a really neat thing that we, a gift that we have
to give to others. And of course it's great to
craft a musician as they go into high school
and do all the nitty gritty and little detail
work. But I don't think there's anything cooler
than going from nothing to I can now play songs
all by myself and read music and sound like a
real human. I just think that's the coolest thing.
I also really like that we get a connection with
I think in a different way than a high school
director does for seven years Even if you have
a high school director come down to your campus
and is visible on your campus or sees the kids
I mean we they know us from the get -go and That
that feeling of walking in the high school band
hall and the kids going cray. Oh miss bow miss
Lewis They love that. I like that that we get
that connection truly over the course of that
seven year time period and instead of just being
limited to a small time frame. Middle school
is where it's at. As a high school teacher, I
can tell you, I mean, I teach with my wife who
is a middle school teacher at where we're at.
So I just I get her students and I know what
it's like to have a great middle school teacher
and then teach those students afterwards. I mean,
if I didn't do my job, things would go poorly.
But, you know, the middle school teacher is the
one who who sets that, whether it's beginners.
and all the way through. I love that. If people
have not checked out the podcast, I think at
this airing, if there's something like 76 episodes
or something like that, what can they expect
for length and pacing and how you go through
it and all that? Absolutely. So we try our best
to make every episode be around 20 to 25 minutes,
sometimes a little less, sometimes a little bit
more. And we try to put out a new podcast episode
weekly. Sometimes we get too busy and we're always
like, sorry, it's the middle of the summer and
we're both on vacation or what have whatever
it is. We do have to get together. We told Kyle
before he started, we have to get together to
do the podcast. And so sometimes we're both very
busy but we try our best to do that so that that
way we can have as much material out there as
possible so that directors can go back and listen
and find what might fit their group for that
year. I think one of the cool things is that
we're we're trying to you know amass a collection
of resources so it's not time -specific, right?
So, I mean, they can go back at any time. That,
I think, is kind of something that makes this
type of podcast a little bit unique. And Katie
mentioned the timing of it. Our goal initially
was we were like, if someone can listen in the
car on the way to work, you know, and get an
episode in on the way to work or on the way home
from work or on their lunch. I'm sitting here
at lunch and I have a score in front of me and
I'm not sure, so I'll just throw the podcast
on and follow the score. You know, it was meant
to be in kind of chunks like that that were gonna
be easily digestible, not something that you
have to sit down and carve out an hour of time
for. Yep. And then our episodes also just go
through a piece of music that we're featuring
that week. Sometimes we do special episodes where
we might do like three pieces on a theme. Like
we've done a fall concert programming type of
episode where we'll talk about three pieces,
but not as much in depth. But typically we try
to go in depth about like scoring issues if there
are any present. Rehearsal strategies, tuning
things. percussion issues or how to deal if you
don't have enough percussion or too many percussion.
We just give band directors just all the little
tiny things that they may need to figure out,
is this a piece that we can play or maybe not.
One thing that I've done on a number of episodes
for the growing band director is actually hosted
the composer and done a one -on -one with the
composer, and then they'll talk about the piece
and then afterwards we'll actually. play a snippet
of the piece for people to listen to from the
composer. I love hearing from a composer about
their thoughts behind the piece, because you
know the program notes, but to physically see
the person and then hear them talk about it has
been a lot of fun. Yeah, that is so cool. As
people who do score study all the time, I think
there's a difference between doing score study
for a music theory class and a score study to
know what's going on, but also all the instrument
pedagogy things. And that's something that I
think comes with time. It's like you and I, the
three of us could look at a score and point out
issues that we would find. Yeah. And they may
not be issues, but like knowing your kids, you
already know what they're going to miss in measure
40. I mean, it just is. That's exactly right.
Yep. Yep. And that's that's a great point. And
that's why we wanted to do this podcast is for
people who maybe can't do what we can do. We
can do it pretty quick. And even if it's a piece
neither of us have ever played, we can sit down
with a score and quickly kind of go through it
and decide what we want to talk about. But. younger
band directors, more inexperienced band directors
just may not be able to do that. And so our podcast
hopefully is helping them with going, OK, I see
what they're saying. They said I have to have
really good French horns and I don't. So this
is not the piece for me or whatever it might
be. So score study help. So how do you advise
somebody who knows how to look at a score and
say this is D minor and that's the one and the
four, five and all that? How do you go next to
help them towards their own journey of score
study? Absolutely you want to yeah sure so I
I think the key is identifying first of all you
know listening to it not just looking at it but
listening to it and then identifying like your
priorities this is going to be melody here this
is counter melody this is whatever blah blah
blah and then approaching it from that from that
aspect of it so I think you have to be really
familiar with the piece, I think you have to
understand, and I know what you're saying about
like they could analyze the score, but also is
that key center really band friendly for a young
band or if you're playing something in the key
of D flat, that's not which I've done, wouldn't
do again, but not with middle school kids, but
that's not a happy key center. As long as the
trombones don't play D flat. That's right. Which
they're going to. Yeah, but that is that's something
that you know, we've even talked about on our
podcast some of the pieces we have reviewed they
aren't always in Friendly keys or they're in
a different key center But that's what we're
trying to do is say even though you might want
to do this piece with your kids Here are some
strategies for how you can rewrite the chord
like if this chord has Half the band because
of what your instrumentation looks like for your
kids. You have billions of flutes and trumpets
and they're all on the fifth of the chord, right?
You can rewrite it and say, well, just take this
and change it up. So we try to give people strategies.
And also, I guess, one person came up to us at
one of the conventions we presented at, and they
said, I love that you give me permission. through
your podcast to do something as a director. And
so we're kind of giving people permission to
say, oh, well, you know, Katie and Laura said
it's okay for me to rewrite this one chord. So
it's more, it's more friendly for my band. So
we're trying to give people strategies and I
guess the ownership to say it doesn't have to
be exactly what's on the paper. Although what's
on the paper sometimes is great, but sometimes
it might not be the best for your group. That's
right. I think it's also important to like figure
out what are you trying to get out of the piece?
What is the goal? Are we trying to teach phrasing?
Are we trying to use this piece to really help
the kids grow with phrasing? Are we trying to
improve their technique? I think that's really
important when you're studying a score. I think
you need to identify that. What is our goal?
What is our goal? What do we hope to get out
of this? Is it meeting that need? So I think
all that's important when you're analyzing. And
I don't know about you, Kyle, but when I was
a young director, I didn't think about any of
that. Yeah. I was just like, I like this piece.
I was like, hey, head director, what should I
do? Or yeah. Oh, I love this piece. It sounds
so great. And I always tell my kids one of my
favorite pieces to listen to is October by Whitaker.
I'm never going to get to play October with my
band because it's in an awful key signature for
middle school kids. And it's too mature for them
to play with the kind of maturity that I would
expect. So, you know, it's hard sometimes they're
like, oh, this sounds cool. But then it's like,
well, this may not fit your group. So that's
what we're trying to help with. Is it OK for
me to give a specific piece example? Do it. Okay,
so here is a great example, I think, for young
band directors sometimes. I love the piece Fortis
by Gasley, but if your band is not good at articulation,
then you are gonna be in big trouble. You're
gonna be in big trouble. So it is a great...
It's a great piece of music and kids love it.
It's got a catchy melody to it, but you've got
to be able to look at the score and say, wow,
my kids need to be able to, and maybe you want
to use it, like I said, as a teaching tool, as
a performance aspect from teaching their articulation
separately. But I think all those things are,
you know, not just, we've talked a lot about
keys, which I do think is important, but you've
got to look at. all of the aspects of the piece.
Are the rhythms too challenging? What is the
style considerations? Can they count it? Can
they play all the rhythms that are in there?
Yeah, it's funny. You talk a little bit about
rewriting every composer that I talk to. I try
to question them about when is it OK to rewrite
some of your music and literally every single
one of them says, make it work for your band
as long as it as long as it stays within the
intent of the composition. you're free to do
whatever. I haven't had one composer say anything
different. Which is great. I played our Kingsland
Spring a long time ago and it was like right
when it first came out and there's this like
high G at the top of the staff and the first
trumpet part and I was like I don't know that
my second band can like do that very well at
the end of a piece so I actually emailed Mr.
Hazo and asked like is it okay and this was like
literally my second year as a band director and
he was like of course do whatever you need to
do but it's nice to just know that like, you
know, composers are cool with it, too. They want
to see kids be successful and have fun playing
their music, I'm sure. So that's our goal, too,
right? We want to make sure they're successful
and they're having fun. They can't be successful
and have fun playing if it's above their level.
You're talking about weird keys, quote unquote,
for for bands. So one of the best pieces ever.
I don't know if you agree. But for me, grade
three on Hymn Song and Phillip Bliss, I mean,
there's very few pieces that are so much. That's
the one I was referring to. She played it. And
she's like, I'm not going to do it again. So
that piece, I mean, it's so fabulous for so many
reasons, but it is a grade three for a reason.
Right. Yes. And I never knew why it was in D
flat major. I can't think you could put it in
E flat. Right. I don't know if you know the story.
But then I was talking to somebody who said,
oh, yeah, I know why it's in D flat. So Holsinger,
apparently, when he wrote it, the top note that
the band he could write was for G for trumpet.
And there's the chord near the end where the
third is on the top and it's a trumpet. So it
had to be the key of B flat for trumpet. That
was why I thought it was because of the pinkies
and like how it fits so well. I'm like, nope.
It was like all centered around that. That is
really funny. Well, dang, that kid, they can
only play up to G that that is like, I mean,
that, yeah, that's pretty cool that he wrote
the piece for that group and made sure that it
like hit the parameters and everything. So, yeah,
yeah, it is a hard, it is a hard piece with middle
school. Yeah. Even if they press the right buttons,
it is a hard key to make sound. There's a sense
of maturity that you need. Oh, for real. Absolutely.
And we know there are those middle school bands
that you hear and you're like, wow, OK, they
sound, yes. Amen. They can do that. Yeah. And
Laura's band sounded great on it. I mean, no,
no dig. Like she did great. I heard her band
played at UIL. So it's just a hard, a hard piece
overall. So as you guys are kind of choosing
pieces, I assume right now you have like a lineup.
You're like, all right, the next five we're doing
or whatever. So how long are you studying the
score? Is it sometimes that you're doing the
piece already, or you're like, no, we just got
to put in an hour or two on this? And how do
you cross over? You do the form, and I'll do
the this? Or you just both do it, and then talk
about it? Or how does that prep go? So we have
a running list of podcast episodes that we'd
like to do in the future we were able to populate
that list from we presented at Texas Music Educators
Association in February and we talked about some
grade twos that we had already done episodes
on and some new ones and we also asked the audience
to get involved and participate so they filled
out a Google form and told us if there was like
an episode they wanted us to do in the future
so that was great because we got like like 50
pieces right there that were pieces maybe that
we weren't familiar with, but that other people
wanted to hear, or pieces that we were planning
to do in the future. And we're like, oh, well,
good. I guess they want us to do an episode on
that piece. So we try to make sure that we also,
when we release the episodes, that we do it not
like all grade ones, like for two months. So
we try to mix it up and do a grade one and then
a March and then a grade two and then maybe a
grade three and then a special episode. So we
try to mix it up a little bit just so that people
who... maybe they're listening for a specific
grade level, they really want a bunch of grade
ones, we can keep the other people coming back
for more too. How do we do the planning? Well,
we sit down together here and we talk about the
score before we do the podcast episode. As you
mentioned, with us having more experience than
younger band directors, it's not too difficult
for us to sit down with the iPad and writing
in. notes of things we want to say or ooh this
is like maybe a little out of the range of a
euphonium for most bands or whatever. So we'll
sit down and we'll talk through it. and then
we'll record the episode. Usually Laura and I,
one of us will have played the piece. That's
what I was gonna say. But not always, you know,
there's sometimes someone will say, I really
want you guys to do an episode on this brand
new piece to the PML. So, and we're super happy
to do that. We may not have played it with one
of our bands, but I mean, we love to hear new
music and review anything that's out there that's
of great quality, so. We always start by listening
together with the score in front of us. And 90
% of the time, one or both of us has played the
piece. So we already know what pitfalls we encountered
at the time. And if it is a piece that we have
not played, listening to it, and like, you know,
we focus on grade one, twos and threes. So for
the most part, we can listen and look at a score
at the same time. tell pretty quickly. Certainly,
if you're playing a piece, you may discover some
other little things as you get into the nitty
-gritty, but it doesn't usually take us very
long. A grade three piece may take us a little
bit longer to score, study, and prep beforehand,
but generally, it doesn't take us long. We listen
to it, we talk about it, this is what I did,
this is what you did, this worked for me, this
worked for you, okay, great, let's say that,
go. And that's the cool thing about doing a podcast
with your best friend is like, she may have done
something with her band. I may have done something
different. We can talk about both ways that we
taught something because you can always learn
from anybody, you know, it might not might her
way might work for someone. My way might work
for someone who cares as long as, you know, they
get the information and they get to try something
new. That's right. So you do a piece for the
first time and then a few years later, a couple
of years, whatever it is, you go back and do
it again. The experience of this is a great piece.
I'm gonna do this again But then the second time
it didn't hit the same way that you thought it
was gonna be the first time So like this whole
like reusing music, you know, it's fine Like
you don't want to do the same piece every year
for forever, right? But like how do people know
if they should do the piece again or if they're
like, I should probably should leave that one
forever. Oh Man, so I personally try really hard
to not recycle UIL pieces. So UIL in Texas is
like our big band contest for the year. It's
a statewide contest where we're being judged
on a rubric and we get a rating one to five and
one is the best. So we're hoping to get ones
from the judges. And so I have a list of my personal
programming for my whole career. And so I try
not to recycle a piece for that contest, although
it can happen. If there's a beat like you mentioned,
if there's a great piece that you're like, Oh
man, that would fit my band again. Um, then like
do it, you know, as long as it's been in Texas,
the rule is you can't do it, um, every two years.
So you have to wait and then you can recycle
it or three. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, but if you're
at a school concert, Yeah. Then I mean, whatever.
Yeah. Like I, every single year at my beginner
concert in the winter time in December, we play,
we will rock you because like, Hey, why not?
That's fun. Kids love it. Parents love it. Everybody's
stomping and clapping along. So yes, I recycle
that because it's a tried and true, um, beginner
piece that all of the kids and the parents love
to play. And what's the new piece that's the
big hit that Mechanical Monsters. Yes, that's
a different one. Is it band rocks? There's so
many pieces though. That's the cool thing is
the composers are starting to understand that
you can make a lot of money if you cater to middle
school bands because we're gonna pick cool new
pieces that other people haven't heard. And grade
ones are so much fun when you can find a good
one that the kids love and that you can also
find enjoyment out of teaching. regards to repeating
pieces. So I think a lot of that depends, like
Katie mentioned, of course, if it fits your band.
For me, a lot of it depends on the level of the
band. So like for beginners, I repeat. like my
winter concert, we have one piece that we will
change a year and the other two we do the same
two pieces. Spring concert, kind of the same
deal, we've got four or five pieces and we go
through those and I use those and at the beginner
level it's because our learning process is happening
at the same pace consistently year after year
for the most part. So those work and I know these
pieces are good for reinforcing a skill set.
And I think you have to keep all of that in mind
when you're talking about programming for an
older band as well. It all comes down to what
does my band need to learn? Where do we need
to grow? And if we need to grow in this area,
if we need to grow tonally, then I'm gonna find
something that really helps us. Stay in a in
a range that is gonna showcase our beautiful
tones or or stretch us a little bit This way
or that way but using it to using it as a teaching
tool Sometimes you can find I mean often you
can find that the same piece may be a great teaching
tool Yeah, I mean I definitely have repeated
pieces for I've not been as good as Katie. I
don't there's not been a piece I've ever played
three times, but There definitely there are pieces
I'll repeat. Okay, I did this eight years ago
and I really loved it. You know, it was great
for this. So I think I think you just have to
start with again. What is your goal? What are
you? Where are you trying to teach and stretch
your kids? And does this fit? And like both of
us last year played a Longford legend. It's a
wonderful piece and I had already previously
played it in my career. I don't know if I had
not his first time. So she had a great piece
I had. Say that again. Great piece. I know. One
of my all times. Yeah. And like, honestly, Laura
said first, I'm going to play long for legend
with my band. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, you
know what? That would really fit my band well
this year, too. So we ended up playing the same
piece, which is layers. And so did many other
bands in our region. But that's beside the fact.
But like, you know, if you have a great alto
sax player, that's a great piece for it. Right.
And so you just have to like Laura. said not
only think about what's your goal how do you
want to grow your band but also look at what's
in front of you and if you happen to have the
right soloist for a piece or you know there's
a clarinet feature in a piece and you've got
a really big great clarinet section then that
might be one to repeat but you don't want to
just repeat it because you loved it you know
it may not fit your group for that year and you
don't want to set the kids up for you know not
failure but you don't want to set them up to
where they're having to struggle to get that
piece under their fingers. I think that's a young
band director thing. I mean, it's certainly,
I know I did this. My literature knowledge was
nil when I started teaching. Me too. And it was
often a, I like that. I listen to a crew. Ooh,
I like the way that sounds. I want to play that
with my band. And then you start working on it
and you're pulling your hair out. It was such
a mistake. So yeah, I think just, again, finding
- Know your limit. No, that's it. Yes. Yeah.
The advice you're giving is also great when choosing
music for your band regarding grade level, because
you might say we're a grade two band, but maybe
this grade one is perfect for you guys. And that's
right. And on the same side, it's like one of
the pieces you did was blue and green music,
which is an air quotes a three. Right. Like we'll
call that three. But I was talking with forgetting
his name. Beyond Artless podcast. Anyway, he
was part of the commission. for Blue and Green
Music with Hazel. Oh, cool. They did it through
his school. Right. How can I remember his name
anyway? He said, yeah, that's it was like too
hard for them. It's just the way that it worked
out was not. So it's like that's a three. But
that's not on the same level of difficulty as
the Bach Prelude and Fugue and B flat major.
Like right. Different. Right. So right. Know
your kids match what they're being asked to do
with what they can do, not this is a great three.
Let's play it. Well, and Katie and I talk a lot
like I think sometimes in in in Texas band directors,
especially in Texas I feel like band directors
can get really caught up in the grade level of
the piece You know and like you said well, we
want to be we want to be really competitive I
have to play a grade four I have to play what
you have to do is you have to sound really good
on whatever it is that you select that needs
to be your priority get out of your own way and
Thinking that that that grade level matters.
What matters is can and your kids sound really
good. That's what matters. Absolutely. Chris
Gleason was the name I was looking for. Oh, there
it is. OK. I was trying to look up my score for
blue and green to see if I could figure it out.
Yeah. Another sort of off the topic question
that we haven't prepared you for. I'd like to
know on your main instrument, what is a tip that
band directors you wish that they knew that a
lot of them don't? OK, good. So. First, I'm gonna
plug ourselves real quick. We are presenting
at Midwest Band and Orchestra Clinic in December.
So we hope some of you guys will check us out
there. And our clinic is about pedagogy and how
to teach. quickly from the podium and like rehearsal
strategies for teaching pedagogy, not only to
beginners, but even more in the band setting
when you have all the instruments in front of
you. What are some quick things that you can
say and help your band to sound their best individually
so that everybody sounds good together? So we're
very passionate about this topic as well. So
I'm excited you asked. Well, I am a flute player
and one thing that I don't like that people sometimes
say about flute is that you just need to blow
harder or blow less because that actually has
nothing to do with how to sound good on the flute
and in fact flute playing is very similar to
brass playing and I think a lot of times people
don't Understand that they have a lot of crossover
like air direction that matters when you play
the flute like your aperture size that matters
a lot when you play the flute and I think sometimes
people just go oh well it's it's a high B flat
so we don't have an octave key like the sax we
don't have a register key so just blow harder
and the high B flat will come out well you will
sound very sharp and aerial and nasty nobody
will want to listen to that so that's my little
thing that sometimes I hear people say just use
more air or just use less air. And I'm like,
no, no, that's actually not how you use that.
Do you use the head joint only for the low and
high sounds and all that? Absolutely. So like
my beginner class right now, we're still working
on that. A little plug, I guess, for musical
mastery. That's the book that I use to start
my classes. And there's a whole thing about head
joint playing. So they'll use, and we use Pneumopros
as well so that they can see their air direction
when they play. Shout out to a brand new product,
it's called the Vizier, created by Tony Bianchetta,
my trombone private lesson teacher. And it's
literally a pneumo pro, but for brass instruments.
So if you've never heard of it, I would go and
look that up because our beginners have been
using it and it's awesome. Because they can say,
like my co - Mr. Brink he can say we're gonna
play an F on the trombone and they won't accidentally
play a B -flat because they've practiced on their
busy air making sure that they know what their
air is supposed to look like for an upper note.
Same thing for the flute on a pneumo pro you
can see where you're supposed to direction your
air you can look in the mirror to see what your
aperture should look like to play the high note
or the low note on a head joint and that's the
same thing you just put it on a flute and you
just sound good instead of well let's just shove
our flute together and Just play and see how
it goes. You know prayer. Yeah, so that's a big
thing and I know a lot of people say flute is
really hard to teach so We'll probably spend
quite a bit of time on flute because Laura is
a great flute teacher, too I'm a percussionist,
right? So for me, I think I have a couple of
things so I It frustrates me when band directors
who are Don't appreciate percussionists when
you Put all the responsibility for pulse and
timing on your percussion section when that is
absolutely unfair and false. Every individual
in the ensemble is responsible for pulse and
timing. But I think band directors, one of the
biggest things in terms of percussion is you
need to be knowledgeable about what sound you
want. So if you don't like, experiment with different
implements and understand the difference between
what a rubber mallet sounds like on the xylophone
and what a brass mallet sounds like on the bells,
what an acrylic mallet sounds like. understand
the color and texture difference of those sounds
and be able to verbalize that. or you know especially
if you don't have a percussion director or someone
like that in your rehearsal or near for you to
ask for help but it's easy to I mean it's just
experimentation I don't really like that can
we play the woodblock with this instead or no
I didn't like the way that symbol you know that
symbol was too there's too many overtones and
that symbol crash let's hear something so I think
that is huge. So and on that note real quick.
So you brought up earlier that it's really important
to score study. Laura is saying it's really important
to not only score study, but to also like percussion
study so that that way you're not in the rehearsal
and going, oh, there's a There's a wind chimes
part and I didn't even notice that I got to set
it up. Right. I got to have the different implements
and mallets ready for the kids so they can try
different. You have to own it too. If you don't
have wind chimes and it says wind chimes. Yeah,
exactly. I also think with percussion specifically,
extending a little grace and understanding that
like if you are, you're the snare drummer on
the march, right? If you're sitting in a section
of flutes, there are probably five, six, seven,
eight flutes that are playing the same part as
you. So if you flub a measure or, hey, we've
tried this 10 times and we've tried these practice
techniques and you're really struggling with
these three beats, we're gonna go ahead and edit
this or modify this to fit you. When you have
one snare drummer, there is no editing or modification.
So I think extending grace to the percussion
and understanding they're on an island back there
and often it is one person covering a part and
you know, it's more like a... piccolo or a berry
sax. But even with that, the berry sax is covered
in the tuba. There's nobody else playing the
triangle part. There's nobody else playing that
suspended cymbal roll. So I think extending the
kids a little bit of grace, not that your percussionist
shouldn't be prepared, but just cut them some
slack. How about some tips for doubling when
you have a piece that you really want to do for
the band, but you got four more kids in the percussion
section than you need. So as a percussionist,
what are some things you do to hide them? We
do talk about that some on our podcast and more
and more on our end. We also talk about what
parts you may want to actually use if you don't
have enough kids. So in terms of doubling, it
is if you have the equipment for it, I think
it is always okay to, depending on how large
the section is, to take an oboe. and put it in
marimba, right? You can also get really creative.
We will often, like, I had nine percussionists
in my top ensemble last year. That was a lot.
But we can do, okay, we are going to, we're gonna
assign two of you to snare and we are rotating
daily. One of you's on pad, one of you's on snare,
one of you's on pad, one of you's on snare. The
nice thing about that is you have a backup. There's
not that fear of, okay, it's concert day and
the snare drummer broke his wrist. you know,
what are we gonna do? You have a backup. So I
think that's smart. Doing that, it's okay to
put more kids on mallet stuff. It's also okay,
I've done this, where you go, all right, so this
kid is a talented percussionist and I wanna extend
their knowledge, so I'm gonna take the tube apart
and you're gonna... read marimba and you're gonna
do this on bass clef and do this on marimba so
you can even kind of help kids out help stretch
themselves and grow them in other ways um but
uh i would not i think sometimes people just
go oh i'll just put two people on snare drum
or i'll put three people on snare drum or eight
people on bells or whatever that I don't think
I think you have to be a little bit more creative
than that and making sure that it doesn't end
up balance over balancing the wind section. But
lots of things like that that you can do to help
your percussionist couple of thoughts the things
similar to that that I do so sometimes if I have
an extra kid who's really weak. I might have
them play the bass drum part with the bass drum
player. But on like we have tons of toms and
whatever. So like on a on a big floor, Tom, right.
With maybe maybe a timpani mallet. So it's not
super loud. What I do a lot if I have two kids
who are going to play a snare drum, I'll actually
do. And again, I teach high school, so it might
be a little bit different, but snares on snares
off. And I've done that a lot. And they all they
both have to play it like half volume. So like
kind of forces them to. And, you know, we're
in a marching program, too. So our kids like
to overplay. You know, if they're drumline kids,
like the forte on this is different from the
forte on the field. Yeah. And that's good that
you give them that distinction because that's
really important. Yeah. So so people need to
check out your your clinic at Midwest. Yes. Hope
to see you there. Can you give us like another
non instrument specific thing? Like what's something
somebody who's not going to be able to be there
is going to get out of it. We're going to talk
about all the instruments basically, but also
like we're both very passionate about continuing
to talk about what you can say to kids on the
podium quickly to fix them. A lot of times younger
directors might be on the podium and they're
just like their hairs on fire because they're
trying to look at their score and know what they're
going to say. But they're also trying to listen
and react to what's happening in the band hall.
So we're going to give them some ideas about
like okay let's say you finished a rep and you're
just not sure exactly what happened here are
some things you can do you can isolate the melody
line and then here are things you can tell flutes
flutes you're sounding a little eerie why don't
you pull the bunny muscle down more clarinets
you're a little flat you need to make sure you
click in by pushing up with your right -handed
thumb into your top teeth so we're gonna try
to give like little things that people can say
and maybe even like a little menu where they
can like look at it on the podium and go well
I'm not sure so let me say this to my oboes and
see if that fixes it so we're trying to give
like practical ways that the pedagogy can continue
to be you know just practiced and grown when
they're in like a full ensemble I think non instrument
specific stuff, we have a ton of instrument specific
things, but non instrument specific stuff, I
think the importance of, we talk a lot on our
podcast about... like creating melody sheets
and things like that where you essentially turn
a piece of music into a flex band piece right
and that makes the the teaching process so much
easier so much or yes or tricks like okay the
the rhythm is what's giving us an issue okay
we'll take the notes out of the equation and
count the rhythm Play it on a concert F, right?
Those are just from the podium tricks, things
like that. Or the opposite, it's not the rhythm
that's giving us issues, it's the notes that's
giving us issues. Okay, we're gonna play every
note in measure 17 like a half note. Ready, here
we go. So I think little tricks like that can
help refine the teaching process and make it
more efficient, which is ultimately what it's
about. It's about efficiency from the podium,
right? make as much better in as short amount
of time as you can. And Laura and I are both
really passionate. We talk about... this pretty
much every single episode, we like to mark our
students' parts ahead of time before we give
them out. So that way we're literally studying
every single part and we'll talk about that at
Midwest too, like what we look for, what we mark
on the parts. Independent from the score. Independent
from the score. So we're looking at a clarinet
part and we're saying, okay you've got to use
alternate C here or hey you're gonna have to
do left here and right here or clarinet We've
got an A you're gonna have to use resonance fingering
and we write it in their part So that way again
like Laura just said we're more efficient on
the podium Where we don't have to tell the clarinets
how to do that or figure it out while you're
in rehearsal You've already figured it out. You've
already told them and you've already put it on
their music So that way when you're teaching
the piece, they're not going I don't know how
to play that they go Oh, miss Lewis already told
me it's right and it's left. Okay, I'm good to
go and I I think there is score study at the
middle school level. Now, certainly I know at
high school this is different, but at the middle
school level, for me, score study is more macro.
So what is the overall big picture? Where is
our peak? What is phrasing like? Where's the
melody balance, accompaniment, blah, blah, blah.
And when I go through those individual parts,
that's instrument specific. That is, what is
this kid seeing? You will sometimes see, like
it can be frustrating. You can be on the podium
and kids keep missing a repeat or. you know,
something weird like that. And it's not until
you look at the individual part that you see,
oh my gosh, that was in a really weird place.
Or they had to look, that was strange how that
worked. It makes a little bit more sense. So
it is a great way for us to see it from the kid's
perspective. It doesn't take away from score
study, but again, just seeing it from the kid's
perspective I think makes a big difference. And
there are a lot of people that, I think it's
kind of a, controversial topic of is it okay
to pre -mark your kids parts? We feel so strongly
about it because of efficiency. It is not about,
like the kid, we write, you know, write. right
to left or left to right, the kids know what
buttons to press. We are just catching it in
the moment for them faster than they would catch
it. We're not writing note names. We're not writing
note names. We're not doing anything like that.
We're just helping with problems that we already
foresee in the... in the piece, not problems,
but just rehearsal things that we're going to
have to deal with. So instead of us from the
podium going, OK, everybody, so look at this
measure. It's a dotted quarter note. Here's how
it goes. You write in one and two with a down,
up, down arrow, up arrow, down arrow. And that
way the kids go, oh, yeah, that's a dotted quarter
note. I know how to do that. And we typically
do this more with our sub non -varsity bands
and a little bit less maybe with non -varsity
and even less with the varsity. And especially
through the year, we start with more and then
as you go through the year, the kids are starting
to learn like what to look for based on what
we have marked earlier in the year. And it trains
them and how we want the music marked. Yeah,
I forget who it was, but I was meeting with a
middle school band director a little a couple
of years ago and they said they actually sometimes
give the part in two sided and like it's the
same thing on both sides and one side has some
note names written in for notes that they're
working on or whatever and they're allowed to
use that page when they need to. but the goal
is that they're flipping it over and using the
page that doesn't have it. I hadn't heard that
before. Yeah, that's a great idea. I mean, we
could even do that with a blank and a marked
up part. The presentation seems, if it's all
about pacing, then that's going to directly impact
the culture of your band. Because if your pacing
is good, kids love being in rehearsal, things
are good. If it's too slow, too fast, it's too
hard, too easy. I mean, this is like huge when
it comes to the overall dynamic of where you
teach. Agreed. Yes. And the fact that the fact
that you have control over that, it's like kind
of scary, you know, but once people recognize
that, keep their pacing up to a good level, it
changes everything. And not and also like not
just keeping pacing up, but also you have to
have the knowledge of what you're going to say
every day. So that's not just score study. That's
lesson planning. And that's not just lesson planning.
That's, again, having deep knowledge of each
part so that when a kid asks you, hey, Miss Lewis,
I have a trill in this measure. How do I do that?
Then you go, Oh, I've already planned that out.
Here's how you do it. Or, or if you don't know,
well, let me ask my private lesson teacher and
get back to you. Or let me ask my colleague.
So there's nothing wrong with telling a student
to, if you're unsure of something like, Hey,
I'll get back to you tomorrow. And that hadn't
thought about that. But most of the time, if
you've done your, you know, due diligence ahead
of time, you've already come through each of
those little things and you can tell them ahead
of time how to do the drill. I also think. understanding
what is practical to be accomplished in a time
set. So you may have had a plan like okay this
is what I want to accomplish in this rehearsal
and then we arrive at a section that's given
the kids more trouble than you've... prepared
for you than you thought it was going to give
them. I think being able in the moment to go,
okay, I can stop and work on this for 15 minutes
with my saxes and clarinets, but everybody else
is gonna be sitting there twiddling their thumbs
and throwing spitballs, then okay, that's not
an efficient use of my time right now. Table
that, come back later. But that's something that
comes with age and experience. I call it cut
bait. It's time to cut bait. We're not working
on that anymore. You have to work on that at
home and I will hear you play it in five more
days or whatever. But that's something sometimes
younger directors just go, I'm going to start
at the beginning and we're just going to play
and we're going to see how it goes. Sometimes
you don't need to start a piece at the beginning.
Sometimes you need to start in the middle where
there's a different key signature, a different
tempo. To the band. It starts with some solos.
and you need to start it. And that's OK. Right.
Like you just got to figure out what's going
to work best for your group. One year I put two
and two together. The way you rehearse a marching
band show over weeks is similar to how you can
rehearse a concert band piece. So, for example,
we know we have to work our closer this week.
Whatever. Fine. Well, then in the concert band
piece, I put you work the last page of the piece
or whatever, you know, work. It's just a puzzle.
And over time, you put it together. Yeah. Yeah.
Exactly right. It's all a journey. All right.
Some of your favorite pieces that you've. um
experience in the podcast and a side thought
have you actually fallen in love more with the
piece after you've worked on it more like talked
about it yes yeah um not only that but also we
learned from each other so like last year we
did an episode in season two call about pit in
the tangible The pit in the pendulum, sorry.
And we actually just included it, like Laura
had played it with her band. I've played it a
million times. Yeah, and it was like a small
portion of an episode. It was about like some
things you could program for like a spooky Halloween
theme concert in the fall. And I was like, oh,
that sounds fun. And then the piece was added
to the PML this past year. And so we were like,
Amazing. And I remembered that she had said how
much she loved it. And it's like a 15 year old.
I use it with region bands all the time. I can't
now that it's on the PM because other people
will play it. But but like I said, I love that
piece. And so my my non varsity band played it
last year. And it was because Laura had just
played it and said we should review this piece.
And I was like, well, I love it now. And it's
a piece probably that will play again because
it's great. And the kids loved it. So That sort
of thing happens all the time. Do we fall more
in love with the piece once we've reviewed it?
Kind of, sometimes. We just did an episode this
season on Danza Zanzari. It's a brand new piece
that came out in 2025. I loved listening to it.
We played it at TBA, which is a convention in
the summer for band directors and I love it.
I've been playing it with my band and I'm becoming
more and more excited about the piece and my
students love it too. So that definitely is a
good like side effect of doing the podcast. I
think a piece that comes to mind for me, I love
Appalachian Morning and you know... played it
years ago and when we did an episode on it we
both talked about it as we were going through
the score you know it was like bringing back
all these memories and going oh I remember that
and oh god this is so good this piece is so good
it's so well written yeah you know so definitely
and in fact i just recommended that i was talking
to another band director yesterday who was like
okay i have a really good solo trumpet and a
really good solo clarinet and a really good solo
flute and i was like have you listened to Appalachian
Morning so uh you know i i think the deeper dive
you go into a piece if you've already played
it, like we have with many of ours. Yeah, I think
it's easy to look at it and reflect. We've also
had the opposite, where we've looked at it and
we've gone, I can't believe we were crazy enough
to do this. What were we thinking? This is hard.
And sometimes you hear a piece on a day and you
love it. You hear it again and you're like, yeah,
yeah, yeah, just to hit you differently. Yeah.
Or your children can't perform it to the level
you want them to perform it at. And you're like,
well, we're not going to play that. Sometimes
you also know a piece is right for them and you
pass it out and you start working on it. And
then you realize this is not vibing with like,
and it's not that they shouldn't be able to play
it, but it's like, is this worth, you know, so
sometimes what I'll do is I'll have another piece
in mind someday and I'll like put it on as they're
walking in and I'll just see how they react.
and if they seem to love that piece then I'll
say in my mind I'll say okay we're gonna pass
that one out in a week and we're done with this
one now and I won't even tell them just be like
oh we're gonna try this and they love it you
know it's just like sensing whether or not the
piece is working for them I don't know how to
do that. It's like, they have to like the piece.
Yes. And I have done something similar to that
too, where I'm like, I'm thinking about this
piece. Let's listen to it. And then the kids,
if they're like, yeah, that piece is awesome.
Then I'm like, okay, great. If they're like,
oh yeah, that's pretty nice. I'm like, okay.
So you're not actually going to work on it. I
want to throw a piece out there. And I love traditional
band works. I love standard band rep. Like I
love all the types. I'm not like a pop only kind
of teacher. Like I love the traditional stuff.
There's a grade two, I almost said chart, piece
by Paul Murtha on A Thousand Years from Twilight.
I don't know if you've heard it. I haven't, but
I love Paul Murtha. It's legit, gorgeous, and
kids love it, and it's like a ballad for a band
that really struggles with a ballad. I know it's
like this movie tune, but it's great. Well, we
love getting like recommendations to pieces that
we can put on the podcast and review. And so
yeah, we're writing it down right now. So that's
awesome. It's a good one. OK, so other helpful
resources that you like, you know, to learn from
that you might want to share with other people.
Absolutely, so we love to talk, like we love
to just talk to other band directors, similarly
to what we're doing right now. We have a wonderful
district that we work in where we have like 30
other middle school band directors that we can
bounce ideas off of. I'm struggling with this.
What would you do? Or I'm having this problem
or hey, I just wanted to celebrate like this
win everybody brought their clarinet today or
whatever. And so I think that communal just like
uplifting and also place to go. That's a safe
space to ask questions is so important and not
something that everybody has and and we know
that so that's kind of why we like doing our
podcast so we can help mentor people even if
we never meet them. we hope it's helping them
pick their music in a way. That's something that
I think is so important to me. If I have a question
about a piece, my first person to ask is Laura
and her husband, who's also a band director.
But that's like something really neat that we
have that maybe other people don't have. I also
think here in Texas we have an inc... I mean,
our music conventions are next level. And I think
it is so important for teachers of all ages to
attend and soak up the knowledge from all the
people around us. So we are, I mean, obviously
diligent about attending conferences and it's
not. You can always learn something. It's not
just about going in the social aspect or the
networking aspect. Sitting down in sessions with
other band directors that you respect and learning
from them I think is just... I love podcasts.
So I am all about maximizing my time. And so
I love the ability to plug in and listen to a
podcast while I'm driving to work, while I'm
exercising. I think if I can multitask, then
I feel like I'm taking care of business. So I
like professional development or getting better
at my craft. while also doing something else.
Yeah. And I think that just the role of a mentor
is so important and critical. We talk about that
a lot. Um, and you know, our district even like
assigns a mentor to new teachers so that way
they can kind of learn the ropes. But like we
talk about that a lot at convention, like go
find a mentor. People will do it for free. They
care about you. You know, I have A lot of people
that love to send me recordings of their band
before they go to UIL and like, hey, Katie, will
you just take a listen and write me some notes
on a score and send it to me? Yes, of course.
I'm more than happy to help people. And I just
think that giving back to people is so important
as you, like Laura said, as we're getting older
in our educational years. I just think finding
a mentor and then asking for help and not being
afraid to ask. There's a lot of people who are
like, I don't wanna look like I don't know what
I'm doing. Nobody cares that you don't know what
you're doing. What you're doing is asking for
help so that your kids can have the best experience.
That's all it is, as simple as that. Whatever
you need to ask, ask it because you want to do
what's best for your kids. I'm not a TikTok person,
but I think there is an assortment of resources
out, even on the web. As long as you just find
that you are following smart people, you know,
just make sure that they know what they're doing.
But God, I think you can, there are all kinds
of resources to get information. The world is
so small right now, you know, with technology
being what it is. Facebook groups, Instagram
groups. I mean, look at us. you're connected,
you're in New York, aren't you in New York? Maine.
The way life should be is our motto. Yeah. Definitely
not in Texas in October. It's so hot here right
now. You're mentioning mentorship. I just want
to mention recently I met with Vanessa, Megan
and Phil from Idaho who were three band directors
and it was all about mentorship. They run a big
mentorship program there. So anybody who's like
is into the mentorship thing, mentorship thing,
it was episode 280. I also wanted to mention
another great way to learn at conventions is
there's an honor band there. Go watch the honor
band conductor. I mean, the amount of time there's
a great honor band conductor and people are like
having donuts in the other room. It's like check
out the rehearsal. even if it's one phrase that
they use, get that? Okay, so to close, and again,
I haven't prepared you for this, so let me know
if we need to pause the recording or not. I'm
going to ask you to name a piece that is one
of your all -time favorites, not for your band
to play, but just to experience a piece. I'm
going to say one that I've done with my band
a few times, but that I love. It's the Shostakovich
Prelude in E flat minor, which is just such an
amazing piece. uh i love that super dark and
and super emotional and like two minutes long
so um yeah for me mine would be and We have not
talked about this. You're going to die because
it's the same composer. But mine would be Luke
Sarumkwe by Eric Whittaker. And I heard the choral
version first. And the choral version brought
me to my knees when I heard it for the first
time. And we were at, this was a million years
ago, at our TMEA convention. And one of the Allstate
bands played, it was just after the band arrangement
came out. And it brought me to tears. I mean,
it was just breathtakingly beautiful. And I couldn't
believe that orchestration and how it sounded
like it it wasn't it wasn't all that different
from the the choral version I mean I was just
absolutely blown away so that that is a piece
that impacts me every time I hear it I've already
said mine, but it's October. I just love that
piece. It's beautiful It's moving like Laura
said I will never be able to play it with my
band But this is a true story and it's so sweet.
It makes my heart happy I have a former student
who is now studying to be a band director She's
a music education major at a college in Texas
called Texas Christian University and she is
They are playing October right now in her college
band, and she reached out to me to be like, Miss
Lewis used to always say you wished we could
play October because you love that piece so much.
And guess what? Now I'm going to play it. So
I'm going to get her live stream link and get
to watch her play this piece that she knows that
I connect with. I just thought that was so sweet.
And that literally just happened like two days
ago that she sent me the message about them playing
it. So it's just the best piece. It's so pretty.
That's great. You both said Eric Whitaker. I
wonder if it's possible. Eric Whitaker write
a piece at the grade one and a half level. Like,
is that possible? Feel Lullaby is a great piece.
It's gorgeous. I have played that and that I
mean, it was It was gorgeous. But I like your
idea of even like a like a one and a half or
something. Yeah, I mean, there's plenty of beautiful
grade ones out there. Whispers in the Wind by
Robert Sheldon, Falling Rain. I can't remember
who that's by right now. But all these pieces,
you know, there's a swear engine, I think there's
all these really wonderful younger band lyrical
pieces that we can still teach musicianship to
seventh and eighth graders without it being overwhelming.
and something where they're going, I can't make
this sound beautiful, or where they're going,
it's just whole notes. I don't wanna play this.
It's all how you approach it too as the director.
If you're excited about it, they're gonna be
excited about it. Did you know, I assume you
know, but some people don't know like the age
of the kid has to do with their heart rate, like
the younger kids have a higher heart rate, and
that your heart rate has to do with the pulse
that you're comfortable playing music, right?
I believe it. So like, that's why my wife's like,
yeah, ballot at whatever age, like I'm not even
trying it because they're not, you know, and
it's like not just not going to work. Yeah. Yeah.
That's funny. No, I didn't actually know that
scientific little tidbit. I mean, it makes a
lot of sense. It makes perfect sense. Yeah. Well,
Katie and Laura from Banned BFFs podcast. Thank
you so much for being here and everybody, if
you have not listened to it, you should check
it out and learn from them. Thanks so much for
being here. Thank you so much for having us.
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